iPhone X

https://www.apple.com/iPhone-x

995 1728 9 years ago

pluma• 9 years ago

Interesting how they decided to already publish the article although they have nothing more than the teaser but no actual content.

So what does a decade of iPhone innovation look like?
Developing… Please refresh for updates.

potrebitel2• 9 years ago

Developing… Please refresh for updates.

Obviously the "hype" for a new iphone is still up & running since there is a thread for not yet officially announced device...

thsowers4• 9 years ago

Obviously the "hype" for a new iphone is still up & running since there is a thread for not yet officially announced device...

Doesn't Apple announcing it at their "Special Event" count as an officially announced device?

potrebitel2• 9 years ago

It does, but at the moment the post was put online, there is nothing official, except the name. Hence "this is iphone X" looks like a placeholder for a future event.

"Please refresh for updates"

Besides there is a new thread ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15229902 ) for the same subject - nothing offcially started, yet several threads for it.

Anyway, it will be fun to see if this one will hit 1000+ comments :)

JBReefer2• 9 years ago

Every refresh is an additional set of ad impressions

pound• 9 years ago

Device itself is announced, that news is exactly only that. Right now on apple stream you can see them going through specs

capkutay• 9 years ago

I have a suspicion that removing the home button and relying on swipe-interactions might be a step back in usability for the non-tech savvy people who have made up a large share of iPhone users.

thsowers4• 9 years ago

The presenter claims that once you've tried it for the first time you will realize that it was the best way. I agree with you and think that it's quite an assumption. Sure the homebutton may of created problems when it needed repair etc, but I really love having actual hardware buttons on a phone.

sosborn• 9 years ago

iPhone 7 solved the broken home button and to me it is perfect.

izacus• 9 years ago

I had to disable double-tap for multitasking (and bunch of other gestures) on my family iPads because they caused a lot of issues with older users. I wonder if there's going to be an accessibility feature to make it more friendly to people who have issues differentiating between "swipe up", "swipe up from bottom", "swipe up from bottom and pause" and other overloaded gestures.

addicted4• 9 years ago

Under accessibility iOS already has a floating menu button, that a lot of people, especially outside the US, enable. It actually works very well, and I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing iPhones sold with it enabled.

hbosch2• 9 years ago

I don't think you'll see this be the default experience across Apple devices for quite some time. I don't think even the iPad Pro will have this edge-to-edge screen for at least a couple years – the home button is not dead.

bzudo• 9 years ago

I think you're right. Swipe up to go home is fine, but swipe up and pause for multitasking is going to be a pain to explain to my parents.

nixy3• 9 years ago

But swipe left/right on the bottom bar shouldn't be too hard for them to learn. This also switches between apps, and it was blazing fast in the demo.

JorgeGT2• 9 years ago

It reminds me of Motorola's option to remove Android's black button bar and rely instead of swiping gestures over the fingerprint reader [1]. I tried it and, to their credit, it works very well. But it felt unnatural and my muscle memory didn't adjust quickly, so I disabled it.

[1] https://motorola-global-portal.custhelp.com/app/answers/inde...

pinum• 9 years ago

My P2 does that, and I find it works well. It's implemented slightly differently- there's no swiping.

Touch button (without actually pressing it down)=back

Long touch button (still without pressing it)=recent apps

Physical press of button=home

I have it set up to wake&unlock with a touch instead of a press, so the only time I have to press the button is to go the homescreen.

BoorishBears• 9 years ago

The Palm Pre did something similar and going to Android with buttons felt like a step back

pier253• 9 years ago

I gave it a try and I like it. I think it's better than to waste screen space.

zecg• 9 years ago

In my experience, it works like a dream. The combined fingerprint reader / home / back / app list button on MG5+ is great. I think it took a few minutes to fully internalize it. Also "make a twisting motion to start camera" is incredibly handy. I don't use the "shake for flashlight", as I fear it will misfire and empty my battery.

mikestew4• 9 years ago

might be a step back in usability for the non-tech savvy people who have made up a large share of iPhone users

"non-tech savvy"? I write software for the damned things, and my first thought was, "oh, great, more obscure swipe gestures to try and memorize." As an added bonus, the control center is now a swipe from the top, not the bottom like it's been for the last, what, five versions?

madeofpalk2• 9 years ago

Actually, it's a swipe from top right. Top left is for Notification Center

dmd2• 9 years ago

Don't most people (other than in the USA) already use an on-screen home button instead of the physical one?

__david__2• 9 years ago

I hadn't heard that. Why would they?

codezero3• 9 years ago

For what it's worth, I really miss the gesture bar on the Palm Pre (and other Palm) phones.

It had a little button there too, but swapping the swipe up for this works fine imo. I think this is a great move forward, but will wait until I have to use it every day to decide.

Matthias2473• 9 years ago

Question regarding these new guestures: Are these a iPhone X only thing or they now supported on all IOS11 devices? I think from a hardware point of view it should be possible to let iphone 6/7/8 users to chose whether they now want to use the button or the guestures for this functionality.

MBCook27• 9 years ago

I believe I've seen on Twitter that they are only on the new X model.

djrogers4• 9 years ago

This made me curious, so I picked up my iPhone 7 Plus and tried it. Of course I got the control center because it's not an X, but it feels completely natural. I'll be perfectly happy when that gesture replaces the home button.

In fact, this actually improves the lock screen quite a bit now - no more accidentally missing my notifications because the home button that woke up my phone also unlocked it and took me away from the screen.

odammit8• 9 years ago

I agree! I don't know how many times Ive seen a notification that caught my eye and before I could recognize what app it was from or what it pertained to I'd already auth'd and missed it.

askvictor• 9 years ago

Indeed; one of the things that struck me about iOS devices versus anything else nowadays is the discoverability that the home button provides. The device is sitting on the table, and there is a single button to press. With a home button, it's obvious what to do.

That said, maybe the X branding is akin to 'Pro' and is not intended for the less tech-savvy

rukittenme• 9 years ago

They put that stupid black thing at the top of the phone...

balls1878• 9 years ago

Unsure why this was downvoted, but that black bar at the top really ruins the "full screen" effect.

seanalltogether• 9 years ago

They just showed a full screen video and the black bar was blocking part of the video. This looks really bad while demoing with views animated in real time.

Grazester2• 9 years ago

The Essential phone has a dot in the middle but The Verge review said that you get used to it and it becomes invisible essentially.

gschrader• 9 years ago

I hope by the time I upgrade they figure out how to get the screen overtop all the cameras. The black section looks horrible.

kamaal• 9 years ago

The plan is to remove that next year and sell it as iPhone X1. You want to this milk this for profit every year.

Tomte• 9 years ago

First thought: how well can they discern in the mail app whether I wanted to scroll down or go to the home screen?

I probably have to swipe carefully from the very bottom or stay away from the bottom?

hbosch2• 9 years ago

The bar is as low as today's iPhone home button. I have a strong feeling you will hardly ever reach it by accident, considering scrolling from a point that low is unnatural and uncomfortable.

Also, there is always a big obvious bar down there.

bspn2• 9 years ago

Face ID. I'd swear this was satire if I wasn't watching it with my own eyes.

davrosthedalek10• 9 years ago

CCC hack of face id arriving in 5..4..3...

sloreti• 9 years ago

Face data is never sent to server, stored on device.

davrosthedalek10• 9 years ago

Why the downvote? All of these system have been proved easy to trick. Do you really think depth perception is a real hurdle? 3d printers do exist. It is based on IR detection of projected points, so you might even be able to fake it with a specially prepared photo (for example with holes for the ir points) and an ir source behind it.

jasonmaydie2• 9 years ago

Windows says hello. I imagine in an non-fixed setting like an mobile phone, trying to peek at your phone while not drawing attention to it (meeting or otherwise) will probably be somewhat of a challenge

raesene95• 9 years ago

Windows Hello is pretty good for fixed or semi-fixed devices (e.g. Surfaces, Laptops, desktops) but really not great for mobile.

Hats/sunglasses/rain/lighting all cause problems for mobile devices and face recognition.

It'll be interesting to see if/how Apple overcome those problems

WorldMaker• 9 years ago

I find I type my PIN faster than Windows Hello works, more often than not, and yeah it is easier to surreptitiously punch a pin under a table than bring your phone to face distance.

thsowers4• 9 years ago

A little surprising given all of their previous talk about "Leading innovation in security" to pick a technology that is inherently insecure

thsowers4• 9 years ago

Unsure about the downvotes, do you really buy Apples 1 in a million numbers here? Really? This tech has proven to be unreliable before and is nothing more than security theater and for a minor convenience

artursapek4• 9 years ago

"Face data"

oculusthrift2• 9 years ago

what if it is dark? this guy even had issues just using it on stage

Shikadi2• 9 years ago

It probably uses an IR light source to illuminate your face invisibly. Trouble on stage may have been from stage lighting drowning out the IR, though that parts just speculation. I didn't watch

function_seven4• 9 years ago

It uses an infrared camera, dot projector, and floodlight. It doesn’t appear to rely on ambient lighting.

But the guy did have issues on stage...

astrodust• 9 years ago

Pre-production phone. Beta software. Mistakes happen.

saagarjha20• 9 years ago

The issues were because the phone had just been restarted, which disables Face ID.

sccxy• 9 years ago

Keynote is quite boring after so many leaks.

chris_712• 9 years ago

I unlock my phone in my pocket with Touch ID all the time - ready to go and on the home screen by the time I've flipped it around in my hand. Feels like a straight downgrade in usability.

also, some engineer at apple had to continuously grow a beard to test this

dan12342• 9 years ago

I think speed of the facial recognition will make or break this. If it takes less than 500ms of me staring at it to unlock it could feel fluid enough. Any longer and it'll be annoying every time.

davrosthedalek10• 9 years ago

500ms is a LOOONG time. That's about how long my S8 needs, and I always question whether it works this time. 100ms or so would be great.

heyheyhey• 9 years ago

Agreed. If it's fast enough to unlock by the time my face is facing the iPhone, then I'm not losing any productivity there.

e: But watching the keynote, it's definitely doesn't seem that fast...

balls1878• 9 years ago

it looked pretty slow on the demo. In the order of 1500ms.

TouchID is much faster.

agumonkey9• 9 years ago

What about unlocking without looking at it ?

rmrfrmrf8• 9 years ago

TouchID always takes a "slightly-perceptible" amount of time to work, so any improvement over that would be fine with me.

PeppermintGrade3• 9 years ago

Especially if you have several banking or investment related apps that use touch-id.

Joeri2• 9 years ago

That's probably why they make you swipe up. The gesture takes 500 ms at least, and it only has to unlock by the end of it.

paul7986• 9 years ago

Indeed especially when driving that millions of us shouldn't be doing but do anyway. Touch ID made it so easy to unlock ... can't imagine Face ID being a better in this scenario.

usaphp2• 9 years ago

But the reason you unlock it is to look at the information on your phone, so it's not like you are using touch id without looking at your phone after that, no?

trurl• 9 years ago

TouchID is great, but if I've been sweating or have some moisture on my hands for another reason (say I'm cooking and want to check the recipe) it fails horribly.

rmrfrmrf8• 9 years ago

It looks like they made a point in one of their promo ads that it also works at an angle and with weird lighting/obstructions (the video of the swimmer looking down at her phone that was flat against the edge of the pool).

Shinchy• 9 years ago

This happens often to me when I used my phone as a sat nav, the phone was attached to the dash but would sometimes go to sleep if the battery went to 20%. I'd open it up again by just tapping the home.

usaphp2• 9 years ago

But then you have to adjust your grip, at least for me when I unlock my iphone I am using a different grip then when I try to click an icon on a homescreen, so if I would use face ID - it will save me some time for adjusting grip, at least that's what I imagine, of course nobody have tries face ID yet.

chris_712• 9 years ago

So what I'm talking about is: I place my thumb on the home button and three fingers on the back of the phone, while grabbing it in my pocket. The fingers are initially pointed down, in the same direction of the phone. As I drag it out of my pocket, I click the home button and flip the phone around, so now my fingers are horizontal across the phone (standard phone-holding position basically). It's almost always unlocked by the time I can see anything on the screen.

This requires you to always orient the screen "inwards" (towards your leg).

camone• 9 years ago

I don't understand why having the fingerprint sensor in the back of the phone (Nexus, Pixel and some other android devices) never took off that much. Ever since I got it on my Nexus 5x I absolutely loved it (Pixel now, same thing). It's incredibly intuitive, works both right and left handed, doesn't take up screen space, and they've just added a "scrolling" feature to open your notifications by swiping it. Seems like a no-brainer, I can't see any fault in it, and yet very few phones have it.

WillKirkby• 9 years ago

For people using Apple Pay on the Oyster network in London, the speed of face recognition is absolutely gonna make or break this.

selectodude2• 9 years ago

Just auth before you get to the turnstile.

jghn2• 9 years ago

I can barely get the damn thing to work reliably when I'm watching carefully where my thumb goes. I salute you.

ashark• 9 years ago

Yeah, TouchID only gets me in like 50% of the time, usually with 2-3 attempts. And yes, I've re-done the prints a couple times.

All these people posting about consistently unlocking it without looking seem like they're from a different universe.

aecorredor2• 9 years ago

Ok, the guy demoing the iPhone X just had to switch to the backup phone because the Face ID on the first one didn't work quite smoothly.

empath753• 9 years ago

actually, the phone had been rebooted, so he needed to unlock with a pin to activate it.

TheAnimus2• 9 years ago

I had this feature on my 950 (Windows Phone). It was poor.

Slower and more error prone. Environmental changes such as extreme lighting (being outside) or wearing sunglasses stopped it from working.

Windows Hello and compatible webcams work really well in a stable desktop environment mind. I've just rolled them out across my firm.

bhnmmhmd11• 9 years ago

So you can't unlock your phone after coming from a plastic surgery?

I always thought chances of finding facial-doppelgangers are higher than fingerprint ones. Is that really wrong?

DonHopkins3• 9 years ago

At least he didn't have to shave his beard off.

tomcart3• 9 years ago

If this slows people down going through barriers on the tube there will be barely (but just) contained rage across London

chris_712• 9 years ago

I wonder if it works with scarves and hats covering everything but your eyes. It seems like an obvious oversight, but it's a Californian company that launched a maps app without any transit support...

djrogers4• 9 years ago

After spending a week in London this spring, my (already high) appreciation of my Apple Watch went way up. Paying for my tube rides using my watch - even through sleeves and jackets - was really like magic. Don't think I could live there without one...

gshakir6• 9 years ago

People can be having a 'bad face day' if the Face ID doesn't work fast enough.

bhnmmhmd11• 9 years ago

More and more, these devices are getting less usable by non-human beings. First the Touch ID and now Face ID...

So much speciesism.

mort964• 9 years ago

I mean, I know you're joking, but it's not really the case. Before Touch ID, you had to either leave your phone always unlocked, or have a pass code/word. Those options are still available, there's just two additional ways now with Touch/Face ID, so they haven't gotten less usable for non-humans, just more usable for humans.

Osmium4• 9 years ago

Feels like a straight downgrade in usability.

You know, it really depends how fast it is. You need attentiveness to use your phone, so requiring attentiveness to unlock it doesn't seem unreasonable, provided it happens in less time than it takes to move your thumb to the glass.

jasonlotito• 9 years ago

You need attentiveness to use your phone

No, this is not true. I can log in and activate functions of my phone right now without looking at it.

If I have to look at my phone, there is a problem. If the phone merely needs to see my face, maybe it's less of one. The iPhone is already slow enough I find myself waiting on it, I don't want it to be any slower.

jdc0589• 9 years ago

Im on a Nexus 5x, but I do the same thing, and had the same thought when I saw this in the keynote. I have my phone unlocked before I'm looking at it probably ~80% of the time.

xster• 9 years ago

How do you know the guy didn't just shave his beard? :)

calsy• 9 years ago

Yet if your fingers have any moisture on them it fails to work. Nothings perfect.

veidr4• 9 years ago

I'm concerned that Face ID will suck more than Touch ID, too.

I do the pocket-unlock you describe often. At the same time, Touch ID has its own limitations. For instance, it doesn't work if you try to unlock after recently holding a cold beer (or have even slightly damp hands for any other reason).

intoverflow23• 9 years ago

Why add Touch ID to the laptop range which already had cameras when you're going to remove it from your next phone.

Could have just made the laptop camera up to scratch for this like Surface books are.

I feel we're being sold a compromise and until they failed to get a Touch ID sensor below that screen this was plan B.

mgiannopoulos2• 9 years ago

It's not just a camera trick. They have additional sensors to make this work.

jads4• 9 years ago

You should look at the specs and how FaceID works. It's so much more than just a camera.

The iPhone X is currently the only device to support face detection. All other iPads, iPhones, and MacBook Pro range use TouchID. It was years before it was ever added to the Mac, it'll likely be years before FaceID arrives as well.

MicroBerto• 9 years ago

Yeah but this face thing will work fantastically while you are in handcuffs and the cop holds it up to you.

eosophos• 9 years ago

If you're already in handcuffs, can't they just as easily get your fingerprint?

jads4• 9 years ago

FaceID won't work if you're not looking directly at it. They can't force your eyes to look at it.

philjohn3• 9 years ago

Unless you close your eyes, or have remembered to hit the power button five times before they get the phone off you.

Pigo3• 9 years ago

I remember when I first had this feature available on my android phone, like 2 or 3 phones ago, and quickly turned it off. Fingerprint FTW

velobro• 9 years ago

The system Apple is using is leaps and bounds better than whatever 2d sensor was in that old Android phone

gshakir6• 9 years ago

Face ID = Where the camera watches you all the time.

bennettfeely• 9 years ago

How does Face ID work with identical twins?

gshakir6• 9 years ago

Schiller admits that 'evil twins' is a weak point.

jasonmaydie2• 9 years ago

If evil twins are a weak point how came facemasks don't work?

agumonkey9• 9 years ago

It's called Apple Twin Share

alienreborn• 9 years ago

Don't know about Face ID. Microsoft Windows Hello solved it couple of yrs ago.

chris_712• 9 years ago

Do identical twins actually have identical faces? Some of their facial structure must be shaped by diet, exercise, life in general, right?

MaysonL• 9 years ago

Recently saw a video made by identical twins whom I knew back in the '60s, and their faces differed much more than they did at that time.

grenoire• 9 years ago

Woah, they skipped 9 just like Windows!

madamelic• 9 years ago

* Flip industry on their heads

* 9 is 6 flipped

* QED Microsoft + Apple are Satan.

dmix5• 9 years ago

Not necessarily, X will likely be a sub-line for iPhone like "Air" was for Macbook. See: OSX

ihuman3• 9 years ago

I'd agree with you if they called it "Ex", but they're calling it "ten"

andrioni• 9 years ago

Well, but Mac OS X (then OS X, now macOS) was called "Mac OS Ten" and it actually followed Mac OS 9.

datalus• 9 years ago

Better coverage: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/09/12/live-coverage-iphone-x-...

danijelb3• 9 years ago

FaceID shows the difference between Apple and other smartphone manufacturers. Apple doesn't release features until they are absolutely sure they can engineer them to work perfectly.

raesene95• 9 years ago

How do you know it'll work perfectly? No-one actually has one of these to test it yet.

danijelb3• 9 years ago

Of course I don't. But the presentation gives enough information to be able to assume it is secure. Some other manufacturers' solutions can be tricked with photos. Since Apple mentioned dot projector, you can assume they are tracking the 3D model of your face which by itself should be much more secure. And it works with Apple Pay, the banks wouldn't allow it if it wasn't equivalent to Touch ID.

bspn2• 9 years ago

Lol, just as it fails in the live onstage demo ...

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

It didn't fail, the phone had rebooted, forcing passcode entry.

chrisked• 9 years ago

it just didn't work twice live on stage.

NicoJuicy• 9 years ago

And it failed in the demo...

danijelb3• 9 years ago

Well, the beauty of presentations... Touch ID also fails sometimes. The important thing is that your finger can't unlock my phone.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

It didn't fail, the phone had rebooted, forcing passcode entry.

jordache2• 9 years ago

oh like the iphone 4 antenna?

aluhut2• 9 years ago

Like TouchID? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM8b8d8kSNQ

marcell• 9 years ago

FaceID seems pretty impressive, if it works as advertised, and it sounds like they've thought of a lot of edge cases.

I can't get over the black bar at the top of iPhone X though. It looks like it has devil horns...

jordache2• 9 years ago

You got all of that from a press event? reallY?

saagarjha20• 9 years ago

Yes…they mentioned the tests they put it through. Different hairstyles, facial hair, etc. and it worked; they tried pictures and masks and made sure it didn't.

aluhut2• 9 years ago

I'm looking forward for the CCC hack of this. Maybe you can now tape the picture around your face.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

It's a bit more complicated than that. But yea, seeing how much effort it takes to hack this will be interesting.

captainmuon• 9 years ago

...and all I wonder is why they are skipping number 9? Are the negative connotations some culture? iPhone NEIN?

With Windows 9, there was at least the explanation that software might confuse it with Windows 9x (which I didn't buy, since there is view api returning the version as a string, and Windows shims GetVersion if you don't declare compatibility anyway).

More on topic, this looks nice, I think people will not be disappointed like they were with the MBPs. Can't wait to try it in a store (and probably can't afford it either...). Edit: no touch ID?? Might have spoken too quickly...

oculusthrift2• 9 years ago

I think its because this is the 10th anniversary of the iphone. And they want to have it seen as a major step forward.

egypturnash• 9 years ago

Probably because it's been ten years since the original iPhone, and they feel this one's far enough from the original to merit the version bump.

They may also be trying to indicate that they feel this iPhone is on a par with OSX for productivity or something.

Apocryphon• 9 years ago

It's more succinct than Tenth Anniversary iPhone Edition, I suppose.

linguae• 9 years ago

During WWDC 1998, Steve Jobs announced Mac OS X (as a change from the original Rhapsody strategy) while Mac OS 8.1 was still current. There is precedent by Apple to announce version X before version 9 is released.

raesene95• 9 years ago

I do hope Apple have got this facial recognition stuff right, but personally I'm skeptical that it'll be better than TouchID.

For me, from reading previously leaks, this feels like a compromise where design (we want a phone that's all screen) wins out over usuability (TouchID is great for usuable security)

dopamean2• 9 years ago

I turned off the stream because I needed to get back to work. Did they say anything about security for FaceID? Such as where the data about your face is stored. Or what about just holding up a photo of someone?

acomjean• 9 years ago

https://www.macrumors.com/2017/09/12/live-coverage-iphone-x-...

"Face data protected by A11 chip's secure enclave. On-device processing."

Looks like its using a dot projector for the depth sensing (similar to the xbox kinect).

kevingrahl6• 9 years ago

It’s stored in the secure enclave locally on the device. They said it can’t be fooled by photographs and they tested it with “Hollywood mask makers”. It’s “one in a million”.

SOLAR_FIELDS• 9 years ago

It's all stored locally on the phone. I don't think they mentioned whether there will still be a "panic" button which forces passcode unlock.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

The "panic" is an iOS 11 feature, not phone specific in any way.

S_A_P3• 9 years ago

They did mention that they tested against photos, and worked with hollywood makeup artists to make masks to test the phone as well. The number they mention for the odds that someone elses face will match yours is 1 in 1,000,000. They also said that touch id has a 1 in 50,000 chance, so it is 20x more secure.(I say that a bit tongue in cheek) I would like to know how they crunched these numbers though.

goeric• 9 years ago

Face ID just failed in the on-stage demo. Oops :(.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

No it didn't the phone was already in the "please enter a passcode" phase, most likely due to a reboot.

saagarjha20• 9 years ago

The phone had just been rebooted. That's why it asked for a passcode.

aeleos3• 9 years ago

Lol the first Face ID demo had some issues

saagarjha20• 9 years ago

The phone had been rebooted and thus required a passcode to unlock.

mtgx3• 9 years ago

Did the FaceID just fail on stage for Craig Federighi?

sidcool• 9 years ago

Yep, but he had a back up phone right there.

justusthane2• 9 years ago

No, it didn't. The screen said "Enter PIN to enable Face ID." The phone had been rebooted, and a password is required first. Same as TouchID. He failed, FaceID did not.

mholt• 9 years ago

I approve of Face ID more than Windows Hello, but I'm not convinced that neural networks are ready for security prime-time. Have we solved adversarial attacks yet? Were any of the masks they used in training painted with adversarial patterns?

(The tech is cool, though. Actually amazing, that it fits on a phone.)

gshakir6• 9 years ago

It was said that they worked with some best Hollywood make up artists that make masks.

ktta• 9 years ago

There is a different way to trick neural networks.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1412.1897

kevingrahl6• 9 years ago

It was said Face ID is one in a million so that means ~7500 people can unlock my phone..

function_seven4• 9 years ago

My current PIN is 6 digits, so ~7500 can also unlock my phone on a random guess. Chances are the first five people to try will trigger the passcode though.

kevingrahl6• 9 years ago

Haven't checked your math but that's random guesses on an insecure password and prevented by rate limiting, you can't just enter 7.5 billion passwords.

Face recognition (other than Face ID I mean) is fairly advanced. Let's say a government wanted to unlock my phone they could search for similiar faces and just pay the person. Sure a lot of trouble for unlocking a phone and it's theoretical but it's still a flawed system in my opinion.

hawski• 9 years ago

One in a million is the same as with a six digit passcode.

kevingrahl6• 9 years ago

six digit passcode

Which is insecure. I use a 25+ character random alphanumerical password that I change at least every six months.

humbleMouse• 9 years ago

Another reason to keep using my iphone-5s. New phones are way too big, and I love the home button. If I was forced to upgrade I'd get the iphone 7 se (the mini one)

listic• 9 years ago

It's rather the 6s one. Still, I hope they will upgrade it in future. Also, I'm sure they will release scaled-down version of the X in time; it's just easier/cheaper for them to release a bigger iPhone first.

saagarjha20• 9 years ago

iPhone SE, you mean. It's the same on that came out alongside iPhone 6S.

iClaudiusX• 9 years ago

Probably not a good sign that FaceID failed on stage for Craig on his first try (had to use a passcode to log in) during the demo.

gre• 9 years ago

Nah, he used his backup iPhone and it worked!

shard2• 9 years ago

I hope they include a backup iPhone with every purchase.

S_A_P3• 9 years ago

I saw that- I am very curious how this will pan out as its released. I am wondering how well it will really adjust to your face changing(for instance a significant weight loss/gain, or injury)

mlpinit• 9 years ago

It looked like he had a backup phone for that. For the fingertip version every once in a while you have to put in the passcode. I assume that's what happened in his case as well...

mikestew4• 9 years ago

Me (as he gets ready to unlock): "Well, it's Apple, so it's got to work better than that horrendous alpha version of facial recognition on that POS Samsung Note...oops, guess not."

xtracerx• 9 years ago

I don't think it failed, it just said you had to use passcode on first login after restart, just like the touchID

vidoc• 9 years ago

It totally failed, those guys repeat those demos for months and there is absolutely no way the phone was in such a state.

eeeeeeeeeeeee3• 9 years ago

He went to the backup phone after and said as much, it clearly failed. No way that was intended behavior.

basch2• 9 years ago

what does your touch id do if you have doritos on your thumb, or your phone in the shower too long?

(it asks for your pin)

freyir• 9 years ago

The message during the demo said "Your passcode is required to enable Face ID"

This indicates an error. When you have too many failed Touch ID attempts, the iPhone says "Your passcode is required to enable Touch ID"

After you restart your phone, the message is "Touch ID requires your passcode when iPhone restarts"

fatbird• 9 years ago

Bill Gates got a BSOD during a big demo. Shit happens.

draugadrotten• 9 years ago

This is also a classic worth watching: https://youtu.be/2Y_Jp6PxsSQ?t=31s

Double the...

junnan• 9 years ago

This. https://youtu.be/IW7Rqwwth84

mementomori• 9 years ago

Someone can drug me and hold the phone in front of my unconscious face to access all my data?

artursapek4• 9 years ago

Same goes for your fingerprint, surely?

subhero• 9 years ago

or for for anything, really?

(mandatory https://xkcd.com/538/)

dmix5• 9 years ago

There is far worse they could do to you in that state that open your iPhone...

Biometric has the same issues regardless of touch or facial recognition.

mmanfrin• 9 years ago

No, eyes need to be open, the user has to be "paying attention".

UncleMeat2• 9 years ago

If your threat model includes being abducted and drugged, basically nothing will save you.

lagadu4• 9 years ago

If someone is willing to do that to you, odds are that they're also willing to apply a crowbar to your limbs should you fail to comply with unlocking the phone.

protomyth3• 9 years ago

I fail to see how this Face ID will work in a North Dakota winter or on the ski slope.

// And they had a demo failure on their new unlock and swipe up for home.

ianferrel2• 9 years ago

Not like touchid worked through gloves either.

Passcode.

protomyth3• 9 years ago

removing my glove for a second is a lot easier than undoing the clothing covering my head

benbayard2• 9 years ago

the demo failure was because the phone had been rebooted, which requires a passcode. Certainly not ideal, but it's not a because faceID is a failure.

kyriakos3• 9 years ago

Let's see how many times we'll hear this today

adamb_• 9 years ago

Initial demo for Face ID failed -- Obviously less than ideal when trying to convince your audience that "it just works".

nixy3• 9 years ago

It was because the phone had been rebooted, and iOS requires a passcode after a reboot.

kyriakos3• 9 years ago

Still a PR fail though

_m8fo2• 9 years ago

I wonder how well Face ID works with dark skinned people. Dead serious. Historically facial recognition has had a tough time with dark skinned folks. The inclusion of an IR camera should mitigate, if not solve this, but I'm curious to the accuracy in practice.

kanwisher2• 9 years ago

It uses an IR camera, so it wouldn't matter the skin color. Also people's skin color changes over time so that wouldn't be a reliable system anyways

_m8fo2• 9 years ago

I'm aware that it uses an IR camera. What I'm curious about is what the accuracy rates are in practice for light vs dark skinned people for Face ID in general. There's more to Face ID than just the type of camera they're using, I imagine. Also, what do you mean by that wouldn't be.... What is "that?"

indemnity• 9 years ago

They have 2D faces?

scarlac6• 9 years ago

Given that they say it works in the dark, I'd guess dark skin works equally well. They also use a black guy in their marketing material, where he's wearing a winter hat, scarf, and grows a beard

scarlac6• 9 years ago

Not sure why I'm getting down voted. Here's a link to the marketing material where a dark-skinned guy is wearing a hat, scarf, and grows a beard: https://www.apple.com/iphone-x/#face-id

kelnos• 9 years ago

My understanding is that the issue with people with dark skin is that the camera has less to go off of because there's less light reflection. Face ID shouldn't suffer from that problem since it uses an IR camera.

Jyaif• 9 years ago

I love how for their demo they selected videos where it was dark where the screen bump is.

matthberg2• 9 years ago

It's interesting how Apple is moving away from being the first phone with a feature (face id, Samsung did that before, or oled displays that are edge to edge). I think the shift from that innovation is a maturing step, but also a sign that the company is aging poorly. They can no longer claim to be leading with creation, just with quality. More and more the focus in smartphone development, not just Apple, is on being the best of what currently exists instead of actually bringing groundbreaking technology to the table.

dopamean2• 9 years ago

Hasn't this been true for a while?

jgh3• 9 years ago

It's almost always been true. Think back to the early iPhone days when they didn't even have cut & paste!

Apple has always done a good job of really refining features, but I'm not certain I can think of one that they were first on.

dade_3• 9 years ago

Microsoft says Hello.

S_A_P3• 9 years ago

I actually thought they were always of the opinion that they will only lead when they feel like they can make it a good experience or that the tech is finished or mature enough.

acchow2• 9 years ago

Samsung does every feature first, and terribly. They hit check boxes. Apple executes.

You could unlock Samsung phones with photographs [1]

[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/samsung-galaxy-note-8-facial-...

FireBeyond5• 9 years ago

And you could/can unlock TouchID with playdoh casts, even high res fingerprints printed on paper... so?

bhnmmhmd11• 9 years ago

I agree partially, but Apple is also expected to introduce some new features, right? Or else, what's left of Steve's legacy?

sorenjan3• 9 years ago

Samsung didn't do face unlock first either, it was part of Android 4.0. Of course, using a single camera without movement you'll only get 2d data, so it shouldn't stand a chance against Apple's 3d sensor.

mtgx3• 9 years ago

Samsung's face recognition software was hacked from day one. Not only did, it was hacked with a 2D picture, something that was also shown possible since 2011, when Google first introduced face recognition. It's like Samsung didn't even bother to improve it at all.

Being first with a crappy solution is not exactly ideal, either. We'll see if Apple's solution is that much better - I don't really trust any face recognition tech, but the 1:1,000,000 FAR ratio vs 1:50,000 for fingerprint looks promising at least.

WithHighProb2• 9 years ago

u sure you catch up with latest deep learning stuff? It wasn't so surprising

moogleii• 9 years ago

I think it was reported here that Samsung just stored a jpeg of your face on the local file system and did a simple compare. But sure, they get to claim being first. I suspect Apple is okay with that.

mikestew4• 9 years ago

face id, Samsung did that before

No, they didn't. What Samsung did was release software that mimicked facial recognition. In fact, it mimicked it so well, people were convinced that Samsung did it first. What Samsung actually did was implement software that would sometimes coincidentally "recognize" a face, and more often would "recognize" a photo of the target user. What Samsung didn't do was implement facial recognition that was reliable and secure, which I think is what most people think of when they think "facial recognition".

josteink• 9 years ago

What Samsung actually did was implement software that would sometimes coincidentally "recognize" a face, and more often would "recognize" a photo of the target user

No way unique to Samsung. Every implementation I've seen fails at this, even the latest one in Windows 10.

If you care about security, don't use it. That's my advice.

problems3• 9 years ago

This raises a major question though - what's the use case and threat model for facial recognition? If you're remotely concerned about security, clearly you're not going to use it. If you only care about preventing the casual attacker, either option seems good enough.

I just don't see a security model in which Apple has substantially improved it. The security of it is terrible in either case - all Apple did was make it more expensive.

redial4• 9 years ago

Apple has never been first with any feature, don't know what gave you that impression.

Not even copy and paste.

oneeyedpigeon7• 9 years ago

They're rarely the first to market with a feature, but they often are the first to really succeed at one, including cut/copy/paste.

jccalhoun• 9 years ago

As others have said, the Samsung face unlock was not secure. Windows Hello has been around a while though and I think it works similarly to how the iphone one works.

daveorzach• 9 years ago

How many iPhone X will sell this month and how many Samsung phones sold the 1st month they released edge to edge displays? I think part of Apple's problem is success, they have to launch with a profitable phone the 1st month; no delays & no defects. Samsung can have a higher internal scrap rate for the 1st few months because they sell less and it impacts the bottom line less.

robotresearcher4• 9 years ago

they have to launch with a profitable phone the 1st month; no delays & no defects.

They've survived both in the past.

eco2• 9 years ago

Google had face unlock back in 2011 when the Galaxy Nexus came out but I'm not going to pretend it was anything like this. It worked alright but had plenty of warnings saying it wasn't perfect and that someone that looked like you could unlock your phone. I always found it quite cumbersome to use because it turns out my natural way of holding my phone doesn't point the front camera directly at my face. I hope for the sake of iPhone X users that that isn't true for FaceID and that the sensors are wide angle enough that it isn't as annoying to use as Face Unlock is.

jfoutz• 9 years ago

It's almost obligatory.

"No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame." [1]

[1] https://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-i...

nnd3• 9 years ago

To be fair Apple always was further behind the adoption curve for bleeding edge technologies perfectly timing for them to become mature enough first.

deedubaya• 9 years ago

Say what you want about practicality, the facial tracking on this is pretty impressive..... aaannnd Apple uses it to give us the Poop Animoji.

fokinsean• 9 years ago

But where's iphone 9

nevi-me• 9 years ago

Failed like Windows 9.

I wonder if the plan is to keep refreshing the iPhone X into the future, like all other X/10 versions seem to do.

quake• 9 years ago

iPhone X One X

matthberg2• 9 years ago

Looks like a Windows 8.1 -> 10 naming change, it must be in style to be inconsistent :)

russellbeattie• 9 years ago

I had read part of the decision was based on minimizing confusion with 95/98 versions of Windows. Who knows?

excalibur2• 9 years ago

There isn't one. After 30 years of trying to distance themselves from Redmond, Apple has subscribed to the Microsoft School of Counting.

kfriede2• 9 years ago

This happened with the 3GS (which should have been 4), and has continued since then.

dade_3• 9 years ago

10 years. C'mon people...

miguelrochefort4• 9 years ago

Nobody likes number 9.

See Windows 10.

derjames2• 9 years ago

What about Debian 9?

bpicolo5• 9 years ago

Seven ate nine

jhatax• 9 years ago

Base-8 encoding: ... 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, ...

:-)

dolguldur2• 9 years ago

That would be base-9 though

singularity20015• 9 years ago

funny, but 8=10 so technically base 9

snowpanda• 9 years ago

Face ID seems like a great way to build a global database of people's faces. Not saying they will, but if they wanted to, that would be the way to do it.

empath753• 9 years ago

never leaves the phone.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

Apple isn't Google, they have no interest in having a global fingerprint or face database.

Everything is done on device and the device is sealed tight enough to make hacking impractical for everyone except for state level actors.

aeturnum• 9 years ago

Could we have a modicum of skepticism in repeating press releases?

Thanks to this new design, the iPhone X is sealed for water and dust resistance.

So the iPhone 7, which does not use this design, was not water and dust resistant? I know this is a meta point, but it's annoying. Apple can say whatever they like in their releases, but it would be nice to have people familiar with the domain do a smell test on the content.

vlunkr• 9 years ago

I don't think they said that it wasn't.

AsyncAwait• 9 years ago

I think he's saying that because the iPhone 7 was also water resistant, it cannot be that the new one is so due to the new design, given the old one allowed for it too.

runesoerensen2• 9 years ago

Also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15229900

TekMol3• 9 years ago

That AI chip that runs 600 billion instructions per second - is that just for FaceID or can it be programmed?

fivesigma• 9 years ago

600 billion instructions per second to show a poop emoji.

artursapek4• 9 years ago

The world's brightest minds are working on this stuff

subie• 9 years ago

Incredible, just imagine what 2018 brings us.

keketi• 9 years ago

From the company with the largest market capitalization in the world.

evanriley• 9 years ago

I believe they said it was also used with their CoreML library and ARKit.

singularity20015• 9 years ago

It can be programmed.

revelation• 9 years ago

600 billion Apple instructions, who knows how that converts to useful numerical work.

derjames2• 9 years ago

Finally I may be able to do CFD in this thing.

drakenot• 9 years ago

I can't believe that video plays "under" the notch. I would have bet money that they would have blacked out the status bar during video playback.

ihuman3• 9 years ago

I wouldn't be surprised if you could double-tap to zoom out, like when watching 4:3 videos on the current iPhone.

__david__2• 9 years ago

They do that—there's a video in this thread somewhere that shows it.

endemic• 9 years ago

Yeah, some bizarre asymmetry there. I'd have preferred they just shrink the top/bottom bezels, similar to the Galaxy S8 or LG's V30. I can't see "the cutout" aging gracefully.

heartbreak• 9 years ago

Charitably, I assume if you’re holding the phone with no bezel, your thumb has to cover up part of the screen anyway. So it’ll cover that space.

Otherwise that’s the dumbest design decision I’ve ever seen them make on the iPhone hardware. It’s worse than the protruding camera that they STILL have.

saurik2• 9 years ago

I never hold my phone with my thumb on the top... I have it cupped into my palm and if I really need to "hold" it I grasp the sides. Why is your thumb on the front?

excalibur2• 9 years ago

Watch for the inevitable explosion of videos with important content (like "Apple sucks") placed in such a way that it will be hidden behind the notch.

rmrfrmrf8• 9 years ago

They've designed it with maximum meme potential.

miguelrochefort4• 9 years ago

I'm sure they're going to let you make the status bar black to make the notch seamless.

perseusprime113• 9 years ago

That notch is definitely bizarre, It makes all the apps look weird.

provemewrong2• 9 years ago

That's what I assumed was going to happen, but nowhere in the keynote was it black.

MBCook27• 9 years ago

They said that you CAN do that, the screen is wider than 16:9 so normal content will already be presented with black bars on the side anyway and you never have the notch covering content .

dvfjsdhgfv• 9 years ago

All this time I'm wondering... Why should I buy this phone? Honestly, there's noting convincing in it.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

You shouldn't. But millions and millions will.

MBCook27• 9 years ago

It's all about your priorities.

For me? Having a phone is basically the same size but with a bigger screen is a great win, as is the improved contrast and visual quality.

I can tell you TrueTone fantastic from using it on my iPad.

I've wanted the camera system from the plus size phones but again I didn't want to phone that large. So to be able to get an improved version of that in a phone that's almost the same size? That's another big win.

The rest is just bonus.

aphextron3• 9 years ago

Back glass...

ocdtrekkie3• 9 years ago

The Animoji thing is surprisingly neat. I was all prepped to make fun of it when they put the name on the screen, but that's just... really really neat.

sprite• 9 years ago

Seems completely useless to me. Apple has lost it's focus. I'm thinking of switching to Android for the first time since iPhone 3G. The only reason I'm still on iOS is for iMessage/Facetime.

bpicolo5• 9 years ago

It's entertainment. People enjoy entertainment. Why not?

CodeCube• 9 years ago

it may be useless to you ... but like, do you know any "regular" people? do you know how popular things like bitmoji are? and snapchat face 'filters'? This is gonna kill ;)

osxrand2• 9 years ago

I feel that Apple knows exactly what it's doing with this feature. There is a strong pull with iMessage for 15-25 year olds in schools, the kind of market something like this will go over pretty well with and potentially create more lock in to their message platform. Along with all the other photo apps that will take advantage of this tech. You could even just look at the Animoji as a tech preview for all the other devs.

WithHighProb2• 9 years ago

Poor guy, this "useless" feature is an important milestone in AI

rawrmaan• 9 years ago

Totally, I love it. Very expressive and fun.

ocdtrekkie3• 9 years ago

I can see a lot of use in "I don't really want to record video and worry about how I look today, but this stupid poop can share my exact facial expression".

I don't have an iPhone and don't plan to have an iPhone, but this is going to be a surefire hit feature for Apple, and I expect other platforms to try to emulate it pretty quick.

Also, a friend of mine pointed out how popular it will be among the furry community. :)

santaclaus• 9 years ago

Looks like the tech from the Faceshift company they purchased, I'm curious if that's why they grabbed them

ocdtrekkie3• 9 years ago

Seems likely/plausible. Most of these tech companies prefer to buy a company and then integrate their tech over developing ideas like this in-house these days.

sarang23592• 9 years ago

Will iphone X have passcode along with FaceId

singularity20015• 9 years ago

yes

runesoerensen2• 9 years ago

Product page now up: https://www.apple.com/iphone-x/

Press release: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/09/the-future-is-here-ip...

miguelrochefort4• 9 years ago

- Ugly notch

- No USB-C

- Gimmicky features

- Protruding camera

- $999

gerry_shaw• 9 years ago

You forgot to add "lame" /s

LoSboccacc2• 9 years ago

I really don't get the notches. They're extra ugly, they put the sensor in a vulnerable position and are basically there so that they can claim a thinner phone forcing user to fatten it again with ugly plastic cases just to have the phone rest flat

Karunamon4• 9 years ago

- No wireless

- Less space than a Nomad

- Lame.

Let's not mince words here, this thing is gonna print money.

tinus_hn• 9 years ago

Please don't buy it. It is not a phone for you.

bhnmmhmd11• 9 years ago

Exactly!

and add this:

- to access Ctrl Center, every time you have to swipe from the top right corner of the screen, on a 5.8" screen for God's sake...

the_duke2• 9 years ago

Is it just me or does the big fat shiny frame on the iPhone 10 completely destroy it's aesthetic appeal and kills the 'infinity' effect?

It looks really clunky to me.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

"Looks clunky" and you've only seen some rendered images of it on screen :D

pcurve2• 9 years ago

it has pretty thick bezel. I think the overall design is evocative of the original iphone with metal wraparound molding, but I think Apple compromised aesthetics in exchange for better drop test durability. From head one, it's definitely not an attractive phone, far from it.

dade_3• 9 years ago

Finally, wireless charging, they even support standard Qi, but how are they making Qi work like a power mat?

bdcravens2• 9 years ago

I thought they said it wasn't a standard, but they are working to eventually add it to Qi

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

They're "Working with the Qi standards body" to improve it.

perseusprime113• 9 years ago

How many folks thought the bezel up top is weird? They should have captured the screen space for something else.

AaronFriel2• 9 years ago

I wonder if the tech team involved with Face ID factored the birthday paradox into their security factor. They touted a "1 in 1,000,000" chance that someone else's face unlocks one's iPhone X.

Well, with the birthday paradox, let's say there were, say, exactly 1179 people in the Steve Jobs Auditorium and they all had iPhone Xs. That's 694,431 unique pairs of people, and there would be roughly a 50% chance of two of the attendees faces unlocking the same phone.

That's not helpful for brute forcing a single phone, but it is mildly disconcerting that a security factor of only 1 in 1,000,000 is considered a "wow" factor.

Edit: Some people are asking, "But isn't that equivalent to a six digit pin?" Yes, of course. I am just opining on the marketing spiel for security not being nearly as impressive as it sounds. More boring features like the secure enclave play a much larger role in the security of the iPhone than the "1 in X" chance of a successful unlock.

r3bl4• 9 years ago

...or, you know, if you steal someone's phone, you might as well flash it over the victim's eyes.

stretchwithme2• 9 years ago

If they remember to look away, it won't unlock. Seems very unlikely to me.

FLGMwt2• 9 years ago

or if it's confiscated and you're compelled to unlock it.

stretchwithme2• 9 years ago

Isn't the chance for the pin code 1 in 10,000?

AaronFriel2• 9 years ago

For a 4 digit pin, yes. I believe iPhone now defaults to a six digit pin (equivalent to the 1 in 1,000,000), and the enclave will delay and lock out repeated attempts. They didn't say, but I would hope a similar lockout is employed on the iPhone X.

I strongly suspect that the number 1,000,000 was chosen due to marketing, and that the actual strength of the security lies in the enclave preventing repeated failures and this feature that disables Face ID by repeatedly pressing the power button.

oneeyedpigeon7• 9 years ago

I don't think anyone's considering faceid a "wow" factor in terms of its high security (or lack thereof). It's hard to get the general public excited about levels of security. Face ID is pretty much a hack, one that's existed on android phones for many years, that Apple has to polish as best it can.

I didn't watch the keynote: do they have touch ID on the back?

bdcravens2• 9 years ago

There is no TouchID on the X

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

Yes, the "hack"-version existed in Androids. You know, the one that can be unlocked with any photo of your face.

This one goes a bit deeper with IR and depth mapping.

OstrichGlue• 9 years ago

Nope, no Touch ID. The presenter also failed to unlock via Face ID several times in a row, prompting a "please enter your pin to unlock phone message". Worst time for it to happen.

fuzzythinker2• 9 years ago

You should watch the keynote then. Calling it "existed on android phones" is borderline incorrect as it uses infrared sensors to match 3D models of your face.

k-mcgrady• 9 years ago

> Face ID is pretty much a hack
> I didn't watch the keynote

This is nothing like the version that's been available on Android for years. Read up on it or watch the keynote before jumping to wild conclusions.

codeflo• 9 years ago

I'm not saying 1 in 1,000,000 is great, but I don't see how the birthday paradox applies. Assume that I want to analyse whether face unlock is secure enough for me -- why is the chance that anyone else's phone gets unlocked by someone else's face even relevant?

arkades• 9 years ago

Because if you're an actor with a lot of faces (eg, state level actor with a face db) to feed it, and you're sweeping large numbers of phones rather than trying to hit one in particular, this suggests they'd have an easier time than it sounds like when you're considering it in the private use context.

fleetingmoments• 9 years ago

Choosing someone that looks like the owner would increase the odds greatly. You can't narrow down the search field like that with a PIN or a fingerprint.

qq665• 9 years ago

Especially for groups of people who are less likely to be represented in the training data. Someone with the last name "Tillekeratne" for example is Sri Lankan, and Sri Lankans are probably underrepresented in Apple's training data. If you harvested images of Sri Lankans online you would probably need less than a million to get a false positive.

lojack3• 9 years ago

Choosing someone that looks like the owner would increase the odds greatly.

Yeah, like an identical twin, or family member.

mikeash6• 9 years ago

One in a million, when the system ensures you only get 5 attempts (or whatever the true number ends up being), seems plenty for me.

I'm already comfortable using Touch ID and that number is much lower.

gizmo3853• 9 years ago

> I'm already comfortable using Touch ID and that number is much lower.

Source? I was under the impression that fingerprint recognition was more secure than facial recognition.

Grustaf• 9 years ago

The difference is that if two people in e.g. a class have the same birthday then there will be a day when those two have birthdays, whereas if two people in the same auditorium have the same code, or face, then that has no implications. There is no process where all faces are cycled through and applied to all phones or similar.

So regardless of how many people in a room, or a country, have the same face you still need to bring your one phone up to 1 million people to unlock it.

nathancahill• 9 years ago

More succinctly, there's only 365 possible birthdays while there's 1,000,000 possible "faces".

acchow2• 9 years ago

"There's a 50% chance that two people in this room have the same face" is not the same as "there's a 50% someone in this room has the same face as mine". The birthday paradox isn't really useful for conceptualizing FaceID's security.

mmahemoff• 9 years ago

It's interesting you're modelling the pairs as being unordered.

If person A's face unlocks person B's phone, does the reverse hold? I'd guess it's moderately likely, but not certain (e.g. the chance in the other direction becomes 1 in 1000 instead of the magical 1 in a million).

matt40773• 9 years ago

That's like saying "lightning is much more dangerous than thought, because what matters is not your risk of dying, but the risk of any one of 30,000 people dying".

If the risk is "1 in 1,000,000" that means it's 1 in 1,000,000. People understand that doesn't mean it never happens. But it's orders of magnitude lower than their risk of dying in any given year, so it's factually negligible.

heliumcraft• 9 years ago

What's the point of the iPhone 8? It's essentially an upgrade to the iphone 7S and that's all.

xxkylexx• 9 years ago

It's Apple's way of transitioning to a higher price point on their phones. Now they have the iPhone X at $1000 but oh, there's still have this iPhone 8 at the lower price point... I'm betting next year there is no more lower price point and the new standard is $1000 phones.

srdev• 9 years ago

That's a pretty big point by itself. Lots of people with pre-7 phones looking for an upgrade that don't need or want all the X features.

sigjuice2• 9 years ago

There is no iPhone 7S. Only 6, 6S, 7 and now 8.

balls1878• 9 years ago

$1000 for higher fidelity snapchat features.

I love my iphone camera, and if the upgrade program isn't too terrible, I will get the iPhoneX, but call me underwhelmed.

The implementation of faceID seems really poorly thought out. I can unlock my phone, and navigate it before focusing my attention on it. I feel like "attention to unlock" is going to cause an increase in distracted driver related incidents.

LoSboccacc2• 9 years ago

Bet the chip that allow those snapchat feautures could be used for on-device machine learning, that'll open up really interesting app.

FireBeyond5• 9 years ago

"This is an image straight out of the camera, with no post processing. All we've done is apply a Portrait Filter to fade out the background."

Uhhh, I guess that doesn't count as post processing, then.

balls1878• 9 years ago

These days, after the rise of dSLRs, post-processing is something that occurs after the image is saved to memory.

Raw sensor data to JPEG undergoes incamera processing. Cameras typically only allow small oversight of that process, so many photographers prefer to shoot RAW, and do 100% of the processing via post-processing.

MBCook27• 9 years ago

I believe they meant that in the sense that they didn't modify it in anyway on the computer, it's exactly what would show up on your photo roll on the device after you press the shutter button.

My understanding is that the iPhone applys GOBS of processing to reduce noise and do other things to make such beautiful looking photos from such a pathetically tiny sensor. I assume other phones do as well.

eeeeeeeeeeeee3• 9 years ago

Very important point. With the current iPhone, by the time you have brought the phone up to look at it, it's already unlocked by Touch ID. It was very clear from the demonstration that there was a delay and he had to look directly at the phone. The phone did not even wake until he looked directly at it.

yladiz5• 9 years ago

I feel like "attention to unlock" is going to cause an increase in distracted driver related incidents.

Aren't you not supposed to use your phone when driving, and it is specifically against the law to do so in a lot of places? In any case, it's as distracting as using your phone currently because it seems that it doesn't have to be pointed directly in front of your face, as long as it gets a decent look at it.

garblegarble3• 9 years ago

Aren't you not supposed to use your phone when driving

I know that when driving if we need something on my phone, my girlfriend uses it and I just put my finger out to unlock with my attention still solidly on the road

smileysteve2• 9 years ago

Aren't you not supposed to use your phone when driving

Yes, but while laws say one thing; 80% of your users say a different thing.

Unless Apple is being purposeful to work to reduce texting while driving.

bhnmmhmd11• 9 years ago

This.

There are multiple scenarios where not looking directly at the phone comes handy. You mentioned the driver scenario, but there's more.

E.g before bed, I don't wanna look directly to my phone as it's annoyingly bright.

Or sometimes I want to use the phone while it's still in my pocket (for example, click Next Song ...).

abc_lisper• 9 years ago

I agree with the sentiment, but what did you plan to do after unlocking the phone in bed, with touch-id

natch2• 9 years ago

"Hey Siri, turn the brightness all the way down."

Works for me for the first one. Don't pause after hey Siri; just make it one smooth utterance.

For the second one, not sure how you do that even with today's phones.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

iOS 11 has a specific feature to deter people using the phone while driving: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/06/30/ios-11-do-not-disturb-w...

balls1878• 9 years ago

Wonder what the liability of that will be?

In WA, it's now illegal (a primary reason for a stop) to use the cellphone when you are in your car, unless you are in a parkinglot, pulled over.

Say with this new feature, you disable it, and you are found to cause an accident while being distracted, are you in more trouble because you knowningly disabled the phones safety features?

Also, I commute by bus everyday, so I will definitely be disabling the "are you sure you're not driving" warning.

ringaroundthetx2• 9 years ago

Same here, a tiny bit underwhelmed, not underwhelmed enough to get a Google Pixel successor for Daydream. If my cellular provider gives a decent upgrade and monthly payment plan, then I won't mind that it costs the same as an entry level macbook.

I'm glad the Iphone X is smaller than the Plus line, and has a more advanced dual camera system with the addition of a fast point cloud. That's good enough for me, I skipped the 7 because the smaller model didn't have the depth camera, and the bigger model was too big.

Face ID is marginally interesting, would like to use the API for more. I mean A FREAKING POINT CLOUD IN YOUR PHONE! Good bye Kinect! I can't wait to hover my hand over the screen for gestures, please open up the APIs.

Accacin• 9 years ago

So, I guess I'm the only one who thinks the notch looks great? Gives it a bit of character! I won't be buying one though, I'm hoping my iPhone 7 lasts at least another 2 or 3 years.

provemewrong2• 9 years ago

Yes, you must be the only one.

bvy• 9 years ago

I'm reminded of the spectrum of reactions to the new Prius design by the comments on the notch

goberoi2• 9 years ago

Can the new camera technology be used to map spaces as big as rooms?

If so, this could be game changing for allowing the creation of VR spaces quickly and inexpensively. E.g., play a VR game in your real house after mapping it with your iPhone X. Or better, do a detailed remodel in VR before doing it in real life.

A lot of commercial uses of VR technology (e.g., construction, industrial design, etc.) can benefit from inexpensive, and accurate mapping. Today, the alternative is to get an architect to build a model of your house, to build a crude version yourself, have a Hololens/Tango phone/or other nascent and expensive technology.

If not, what truly is the game changing aspect of these cameras + specialized compute for machine learning/neural nets? They have to have thought through dozens of use cases beyond photos, animated emojis, and other trivial entertainment... right?

guelo• 9 years ago

I doubt they expose an API since it's part of the security feature.

DonHopkins3• 9 years ago

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/arkit/arpointcloud

goberoi2• 9 years ago

They are going to expose some of this functionality as part of their AR libraries. We know this from their Snapchat demo, as well as the gaming demo (though that used the rear camera, not front one).

So... yes, developers will be able to get their hands on some of this tech, but how much can we do with it?

If room mapping was truly possible, I would imagine they would have done more in their demo with this, e.g. see the Hololens game where robots come flying out of walls, and hide behind your couch. That demo was more substantial than seeing a flat tabletop with a projected 3d game, or a projected 3d robots standing on a flat basketball court.

Sgt_Apone• 9 years ago

Someone has already built a measuring tape app out of this thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQpEWv9_6Cg. Not exactly mapping as you're describing, but it's an interesting use case.

gxs2• 9 years ago

Interesting - thanks for sharing.

I actually thought the trajectory app was pretty cool.

gxs2• 9 years ago

actually question - that video shows an ipad - does that mean you don't need the fancy new camera to do that?

hungerstrike• 9 years ago

How do you get to the home screen?

For instance if I'm using an app right now I hit the home button and it take me to my home screen with all of my app icons. How do I do this on the iPhone X?

duckarmada• 9 years ago

You swipe up from the bottom.

amrrs• 9 years ago

Guess, With Face ID, Apple making Fbi or any govt authority's 'Hey can you open this iPhone' case much much harder.

Like iPad replaced a log of information display in Public places like airports, Face ID could one day become our entry pass in many places.

But in the age of Trump, what if Equifax fate to apple?

dmayle• 9 years ago

With Face ID, all the government has to do is detain you. Apple warned against evil twins, but they should have warned against anyone living with you. Family members, kids, roommates.

Face ID: Don't go to sleep ever again

osxrand2• 9 years ago

On stage it was stated you needed to be alert and looking at the device, as in eyes open. Sleeping is fine I'd guess :)

If you're worried about people living with you, I'd guess TouchID is already a huge issue.

anonred2• 9 years ago

I don't sleep with my eyes open, do you?

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

The same people can just slip your TouchID device under your finger and unlock it.

tarcon• 9 years ago

Does the iPhone X Super Retina Display lack the 120hz refresh rate of the iPad Pro ProMotion Display? I hoped that 120hz would be the future because I really enjoy it and feel that animations on my iPhone 6 feel a bit jerky.

ProfessorLayton• 9 years ago

I've accepted that the headphone jack is never coming back no matter how much I'd like it to. I still can't accept that a company that is so focused on design has accepted the ever-growing camera protrusion in order to make the phone "thinner".

My 6s has a scuffed camera ring, and rattles when used on a table, due to its inability to lay flat.

bhnmmhmd11• 9 years ago

I guess they've also have accepted that people are going to use a cover anyway, so they don't bother.

My 6s has a scuffed camera ring, and rattles when used on a table, due to its inability to lay flat.

Exactly. This was my first impression when I saw that protruded camera on iPhone 6.

oneeyedpigeon7• 9 years ago

I don't know if this differs from country to country, but the vast majority of iPhones I observe are not in a case — probably at least 90%. The design is a major selling point, so I'm not surprised most people don't want to use a case.

thrav• 9 years ago

The phone before that, where the camera was flat, is the one where everyone's pictures got foggy after a while. It's because the little lens cover would get scratched over time, since it sat flush. The protrusion is intentional to ensure the outer ring is scratched, instead of the lens cover. That's a feature.

darrmit• 9 years ago

Even prior to the leak it seemed (to me) like it would be hard to improve on the 6s/7, and the keynote confirmed it.

From wireless charging to FaceID it just feels like a bunch of incremental, gimmick-y changes.

alkonaut5• 9 years ago

The screen is the big deal. It's quite a lot better. Oled. Ridiculous dpi.

But the problem with that is that the regular iPhone screen is unbelievably good already. Why would people pay so much for the improvement?

crsmithdev• 9 years ago

So...wait, wasn't one of the biggest selling points of the (awful) Touch Bar on the latest MBP that it could use Touch ID? And a few months later they are moving away from that entirely?

smileysteve2• 9 years ago

Reportedly, they couldn't get it to work through the display (bezel-less) (and they didn't put it on the back)

cm21873• 9 years ago

It's interesting that they are not retiring the 6s, which is now 3 generations behind. I am not the only one refusing to buy a smartphone which requires some dongle to listen to my music.

Karunamon4• 9 years ago

I really don't see the extra $300 justification between this and the regular iPhone 8. A slightly better screen and better camera with otherwise similar specs. Edge to edge and face scanning emojis are neat, but I just can't justify that kind of spend for it.

That, and I'm not all that jazzed about Face ID. Seems less secure than touch.

jamesrcole2• 9 years ago

between this and the regular iPhone 8. A slightly better screen ... with otherwise similar specs

The screen is a fair bit larger

Karunamon4• 9 years ago

Not appreciably more than the 7+

https://9to5mac.com/2017/09/06/iphone-8-compared-to-iphone-7...

More PPI sure, but I think we reached the point of diminishing returns a while ago.

(Ignore the headline - the opening image is an X set next to a 7+)

alkonaut5• 9 years ago

I'd have to see the oled next to the current screen to judge it.

That said: I go through at least a screen repair, maybe two, for a phone.

If I calculate the price of phone + 1 extra screen, it's probably looks even worse for the X.

tapatio• 9 years ago

The $300 gets you status in a restaurant/bar/club, that's all.

yladiz5• 9 years ago

I'm impressed with the presentation and looking forward to the iPhone X. Some features are gimmicky like the Animoji, but a lot of the new features and upgrades are really nice. That being said I have two main gripes.

I know it kind of goes against how their Camera app and system works, but I really wish that Apple would (or will) enable RAW shooting from within the default Camera app. I use a separate app, besides for the special features like level and white balance adjustment, for the RAW shooting. I feel that it's kind of put there because it's available but they don't really care about it -- you can tell from the fact that the Photos app doesn't properly show RAW photos. It would be great if you could seamlessly take a photo and be able to take and export the RAW if you enabled a flag in the settings, just like how 4K was/is hidden behind a flag.

The other gripe is now the control center is from the top, rather than the bottom. I use the control center often when controlling music and the flashlight and it makes it less usable for one hand. In fact, I'm wondering how the "swipe from the bottom" will work with apps that take over that gesture, because I run into a lot of issues with trying to open the control center but being annoyingly overridden by the current app. I'm hopeful but hesitant that Apple thought of this and worked out kinks regarding this.

RayVR2• 9 years ago

I can't wait for someone to pick up my phone, point it at my face and have it unlock. Hope it has a "User sleeping, can't unlock" feature.

Hates_• 9 years ago

Yeah, seems that it needs your attention to work. So eyes closed or looking away wont unlock it.

mbroncano• 9 years ago

During the keynote they mentioned this particular case, and they claimed it does have such a feature.

45h34jh53k4j3• 9 years ago

I am not interested in the X model without TouchID. FaceID provides a less secure authentication method than TouchID.

* Sleeping victims * Attacker holds the phone to your face

Its not as simple as using the 'wrong finger'. You only have one face.

This is awful, Apple. What were you thinking?

Flockster• 9 years ago

You have to actively look at the display to unlock it. So sleeping wouldn't work.

45h34jh53k4j3• 9 years ago

Just wait. Id rather not even deal with these scenarios at all. Where is touchID?!? Why did they ship this without it!?

josefresco• 9 years ago

What about if you're dead? Would law enforcement, medics and/or family be able to use your (recently) deceased face to unlock? Would that be legal?

X86BSD• 9 years ago

Clearly you have no understanding how it works and did not watch the keynote.

45h34jh53k4j3• 9 years ago

I did. I guess you have more info as you are an apple engineer and are breaking NDA?

eeeeeeeeeeeee3• 9 years ago

It would be trivial to simply observe which finger a person uses with Touch ID to unlock their phone (something people are doing in public every single day). Something tells me 99% of people are using at least one thumb. And then in your sleeping victim scenario the phone can still be compromised.

If you have people in your physical space while you sleep that you cannot trust to not mess with your phone, then you have other serious security problems.

That being said, I also prefer Touch ID because it still appears to be much faster. But it offers no additional security over Face ID, and based on what was said, Face ID is more secure in other ways.

RayVR2• 9 years ago

Given how painfully slow wireless charging is, I'd prefer they go for the rapid charging feature. May not be as sexy but it's way more useful.

dolguldur2• 9 years ago

Fast charging was listed as a feature

ianburrell2• 9 years ago

From the footnote, fast charging works with the USB-C chargers. That means it is possible it supports USB-PD like the iPad Pro. It does mean that fast charging requires the Apple 29W charger. But should also work with any USB-C charger.

miguelrochefort4• 9 years ago

iPhone X starts at $1,516.85 in Canada (after taxes)...

alkonaut5• 9 years ago

Can't help wondering what the next model will be called given what a dead end "X" is.

After OS X they never went to 11. They codenamed the 10.N versions but it doesn't seem likely with a "iPhone X 10.2 mushroom badger"-type name.

Best guess: they'll just call it the iPhone next year. Like some other products they'll just use the model year to distinguish. Guessing we won't even see the "iPhone XS", it'll just be "iPhone (2018)".

bhnmmhmd11• 9 years ago

My question is: What are they going to call the normal iPhone after iPhone 9? iPhone 10?

MBCook27• 9 years ago

My guess is that next year they drop the numbers and it just becomes the iPhone, the iPhone plus, and the iPhone X (or something similar).

valine2• 9 years ago

We have iOS 11 which I think is a good indication that Apple isn’t avoiding the number 11. They’ve officially broken the ‘s’ pattern by skipping the 7s and going right to 8, so I’d say the most likely name for the next iPhone is iPhone 11.

xvolter• 9 years ago

Are they aware that "Surgical‑grade stainless steel" means extremely cheap? Surgical‑grade stainless steel is designed to be single-use. They advertise their phone as having steel that is good enough to use once?

tener• 9 years ago

Aren't surgery tools supposed to last years of use?

kuschku5• 9 years ago

Sterilizing surgical tools is extremely expensive, and not good enough. You can sterilize some tools, for some purposes, but usually that doesn’t remove all contaminants.

So surgical tools are instead produced for single time use, and after that recycled, to ensure they’re always sterile.

EDIT: For example, with scalpels, you can remove and replace the blade, and do exactly that after every use. Removing and replacing the blade looks like this: https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-dc86caa627022bbfb7e6b4...

DominoTree• 9 years ago

Yeah, isn't this what an autoclave is for?

sbov• 9 years ago

Define "use". I've had a steel rod in my leg for 14 years now. I use my leg to walk more than I use my phone.

Waterluvian• 9 years ago

Single-use if we bury you with it. Unless you're being cremated... then all your metal parts are like prizes or something for the cremators.

But yeah, I think "surgical" is used the way we used to say "space age plastics" and such.

talklittle• 9 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgical_stainless_steel

There is no formal definition on what constitutes a "surgical stainless steel", so product manufacturers and distributors apply the term to refer to any grade of corrosion resistant steel.

burger_moon• 9 years ago

I mean if they want to use a corrosion resistant metal that sounds fancy they should have gone with Monel. It's very hard and tough, corrosion resistant, and the name even sounds fancy and expensive. It also has a nice look when machined.

mikestew4• 9 years ago

"Surgical‑grade stainless steel" doesn't mean anything. AFAICT, there's not certification or metal grading committee that says, "yes, you can call that 'Surgical‑grade stainless steel'. Accept no substitutes."

Beside, we're making phones, not doing surgery. What is that even supposed to mean to me the phone consumer? I understand that I'm supposed to think "better" because "surgical", but for all I know the standards aren't all that high because it just needs to be sharp, not durable.

IOW, it's just marketing, just like "military-grade encryption".

Markoff4• 9 years ago

maybe you can cut yourself on it because it's made for surgeons and they just wanna raise awareness that their product is not that safe for careless consumers?

wmeredith3• 9 years ago

It's just marketing BS. Like the "Bionic" chip. It doesn't officially mean anything, but it sounds cool.

pier253• 9 years ago

I think those screen rounded corners and the cameras space at the top is one of the worst ideas Apple has ever had.

When they showed a video playing in landscape I could only facepalm.

glasz• 9 years ago

remember, on the back there's a giant bump for the camera as well...

Rapzid• 9 years ago

That's a horrible eye-sore; probably would have been better to make the entire phone thicker.

gbrown_2• 9 years ago

It seems like iPhone X would have been the perfect candidate to switch to USB-C. I had thought this would have been a long time coming given the USB-C only approach on MacBooks, yet it remains curiously absent. I really don't understand the fracture in the Apple ecosystem in regards to connectivity here.

Can anyone enlighten me as to why Apple are still using the Lightening connector here?

bhnmmhmd11• 9 years ago

Honestly, when Tim said "one more thing", I thought they're going to introduce a whole new line of products, like the Surface Phone we've heard rumors of. A device that only looks like a phone, but is in fact, a whole PC. iPhone X proved to be just another iPhone, nothing more.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

There's a surprising amount of people who don't own a computer and use their phone as their only device.

pier253• 9 years ago

Yeah me too. He raised his voice and I was really expecting something significant.

Some AR glasses? Self driving car?

Oh, another iPhone.

sorenjan3• 9 years ago

They make money on every product that wants to connect to Lightning.

gbrown_2• 9 years ago

Ah I hadn't thought about inoperability with peripherals from other manufacturers. I was focused on the need for adapters within the apple ecosystem (e.g. charging an iPhone from a MacBook). This still seems very inelegant but perhaps the Apple we have today has a beauty that is only surface deep.

efficax• 9 years ago

If you switch to usb-c without a headphone port, then you've got to come out with two lines of headphones (actually, three, since they still make regular headphones). Also you ditch a whole ecosystem of peripherals, like the Square dongle, that are built around lightning. I dunno. It's something apple might do, but there are tradeoffs. I wish they would switch to usb-c so I could connect my iphone to my mbp without an adapter, but alas.

bluetomcat• 9 years ago

Infrared rays striking your eyes and face each time you look at your phone? Health implications?

nardi5• 9 years ago

Infrared light is all around you all the time. I'd assume the intensity levels here are extremely safe.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

Infrared rays strike your eyes and face EVERY TIME YOU GO OUTSIDE.

widowlark• 9 years ago

This just in: Apple releases the Samsung Galaxy S8, calls it an iPhone

Jeremy10264• 9 years ago

Would you say the same thing in reverse if Apple's event was a month earlier? These things have been in work for more than the past month.

zuminator• 9 years ago

What difference does a month make? The S8's been out since April.

glogla• 9 years ago

S8 has a headphone jack.

kasabali3• 9 years ago

and a fingerprint scanner

ctdonath2• 9 years ago

Projector-based 3D face recognition. Nifty. Shines an IR dot pattern onto the face, recognizes with that, works in the dark. Seems on continuously, wonder how much power draw.

sunsetMurk3• 9 years ago

I'd bet ~30 days with this in the public's hands we will see headlines like "How to beat iPhone's facial recognition with X". There are some crafty folks out there--

simonh5• 9 years ago

They look like they worked hard to cover that, even training the network to reject 3D face models done up by Hollywood makeup artists. It's hard to see how you'd spoof it better than that.

manmal• 9 years ago

Since it's based on neural nets, I think there might be ways, but they will likely not work consistently.. they will only work in certain conditions. Also note that they also track head position (must face camera) and check the eyes (must be open and look at the camera).. this will be hard to get right all at once.

avn21092• 9 years ago

Also, what happens when I shave my big beard off? :( Or grow it bushier?

plandis2• 9 years ago

Yeah I'm not sure if that's new or not but it's the first I've heard of it. That seems like a really cool idea.

kuschku5• 9 years ago

It’s technically an older concept, and has been used previously for other kinds of 3D scanning of people, but this seems to be the first mainstream miniaturized version of this.

cyanbane• 9 years ago

Isn't this what the Kinect does to determine who you are and sign you on for the Xbox? I think that's been around for 4-5 years. Impressive they can do it all on the phone.

benbayard2• 9 years ago

Not unique, but fitting that hardware on a phone is pretty incredible.

Jeremy10264• 9 years ago

Likely only on when the screen is on, and the device is locked. So maybe a total of 5 minutes a day?

apetresc• 9 years ago

I'm not a camera hardware expert, but my understanding is that (like most things), the booting process uses up more power than the same duration of time in a steady state. So the "five minutes" number is misleading; if that 5 minutes is broken up into hundreds of discrete startup cycles (which is not at all unrealistic - people instinctively check their phone a lot more often than they think – and there's no way for the phone to tell whether you're turning it on to glance at the clock or to unlock it until after it's turned the camera on), then it's a significant amount of power draw.

ctdonath2• 9 years ago

There were indications during the presentation that it actually runs face recognition often, including as a power-saving technique (sounded like it would turn screen off when you weren't looking at it, back on when you do).

simonh5• 9 years ago

It probably activates when the phone is raised or held at certain angles. They're pretty smart at recognising the ways devices are held and moved, such as with the watch activating when you raise and turn your wrist to check the time.

Also when Craig demonstrated it, he raised the phone, looked at it and also swiped up from the bottom. If that's how it works, they might activate the sensors at the beginning of the swipe gesture.

nardi5• 9 years ago

Regardless, they said the phone gets 2 hours better battery life. That's pretty remarkable.

Angostura4• 9 years ago

Fantastic for when I'm skiing or in bed with half my face stuck in a pillow.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

Maybe turn your face 45 degrees for a second?

Or just use the passcode if you're unable to do that for some reason.

viraptor3• 9 years ago

When you're skiing you're also unlikely to use touch id.

sixothree• 9 years ago

Can be used by police to unlock your phone by pointing it at your face.

esMazer• 9 years ago

THIS is all I could think since the rumors started. If someone wants to steal your phone can't they just hold you for 1 second and point the phone to your face to unlock it?

pi-rat3• 9 years ago

Sure, but it might be stronger than fingerprints. If your eyes look away it won't unlock.

Also, there's a "cop button", in iOS 11 you can disable touch/face id by pressing the power button quickly 5 times.

stcredzero2• 9 years ago

They should have an option to lock your phone, disabling face recognition, on voice command.

foodstances• 9 years ago

How is that any different than them forcing your finger onto a TouchID sensor?

jnwatson• 9 years ago

Wouldn't Face ID allow a stolen phone to be easily unlocked? Just put the stolen phone in a different container (with a hole for the camera/sensors) and point it at the victim.

My daughter likes to "steal" my phone to play games on it. With touch ID, she can't. She wouldn't have a problem if the phone has Face ID.

nardi5• 9 years ago

They said during the announcement that you have to be looking at the phone for it to unlock.

dullgiulio2• 9 years ago

Then you put in a container with something small written on it ;)

briankirby• 9 years ago

What about just printing out a photo and placing it in front of the camera? Does it have some way of understanding depth?

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

Yes. Please bother to even read the linked article before commenting.

thegayngler2• 9 years ago

I wasn't really excited about AI and ML until I saw this iPhone X and the stuff they were doing with the Animojis and the Facial Recognition Tech. Whew! I may have to study AI/ML

kolbe• 9 years ago

You say that, but when WW3 is prevented by Xi Jinping using a russian model Animoji to negotiate a peace treaty with Trump, you'll be less sarcastic

Eric_WVGG• 9 years ago

I think we're going to look back on that "animoji" bit as a turning point in modern entertainment. It's a silly, even dumb little feature, but look at what's really going on there: realtime near-Pixar-grade facial expressions.

Someone's going to build a toolkit that lets kids make their own CG movies with friends acting out all the roles. That's gonna be nuts and is just the start.

Splines2• 9 years ago

It's a great achievement, and from the demo it looks like they're almost there (the framerate looked a little low and the characters were missing some subtleties of facial expression). I'll make a wild guess and say that in three years it's going to be nearly seamless.

orteam• 9 years ago

I just thought what could be done with animojies + ar... my head started spinning :) role-playing, avatars, you name it

thegayngler2• 9 years ago

Bitmoji is about to get a major boost. I love that app. Imagine what you could do with that using the AI/AR/ML stuff...

SadWebDeveloper4• 9 years ago

Implying all those things need AI/ML

Sometimes i wonder if the people in the valley are so dumb or just so far ahead of the pack that foresaw a future were you can make a beautiful lie just to the take money from the big fish on the pond. // offtopic

samrohn7782• 9 years ago

iPhone X has not been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission. This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained. What does this in disclaimer section means?

johnl14792• 9 years ago

It hasn't been approved by the FCC for sale in the United States.

Markoff4• 9 years ago

It hasn't been approved by the FCC for sale.

FTFY FCC has no authority outside US

jgh3• 9 years ago

My guess is they didn't want to tell anyone at the FCC about it fearing leaks?

saurik2• 9 years ago

It means that they purposefully did not file with the FCC before presenting this so they would minimize leak opportunities, and did not care as their timeline is sufficiently padded forward that they will do that this month; but they also can't pretend it is already sellable: the FCC technically could say "no" (though it doesn't seem sufficiently crazy different from the iPhone 8 that I would imagine anyone expects any chance of that happening).

sunsetMurk3• 9 years ago

Probably hasn't certified by FCC yet [1], for sale. The FCC process has been subject to leaks in the past, so they've probably waited until after main announcement.

Didn't help too much though re: leaks.

1- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_Declaration_of_Conformity

Jeremy10264• 9 years ago

Basically means that Apple had a hard time getting the final specs worked out so they didn't submit it to the FCC for review until it was too late to have approval ready to go for the announcement.

Markoff4• 9 years ago

they are promoting it before pasing through FCC certification, maybe they wanted to keep it secret since FCC data is publicly available and that would basically reveal their design and specs

parthdesai4• 9 years ago

$1320 CAD + tax for a phone. MacBook Air is cheaper than this.

edit: meant CAD.

ihuman3• 9 years ago

Where do you see $1320 + tax? The highest I can get it is $1,149.00 + tax for the 256GB version.

parthdesai4• 9 years ago

i'm in Canada, should edit my comment.

scarlac6• 9 years ago

To be fair, the MB Air is fairly old in comparison. Also, the display is far better on the iPhone X and last time iPhone 7 was compared, it faired better than many notebooks in CPU tests as well. It only got better since then.

parthdesai4• 9 years ago

A macbook also lasts much much longer than an iPhone

Matthias2473• 9 years ago

As usual it's even worse in europe. In germany it's 1149EUR for the 64gb model, 1319 for the 256gb one (all including taxes). The latter one is pretty close to what I paid for my 256gb macbook pro 13" 2 years ago (the newer pros are however also more expensive).

wu_tang_chris2• 9 years ago

isn't that about right given a 19% sales tax? if not, what would be an identical EUR price for the $999 phone (tax not included)?

51Cards2• 9 years ago

And our dollar is up right now.

parthdesai4• 9 years ago

This is almost like airline industry. Ticket prices will go up because oil prices are up. But they never go back down.

MBCook27• 9 years ago

Given leaked benchmarks for the new A11 chip this phone may be faster than a MacBook Air.

I'm pretty sure the 10.5 inch iPad Pro already is.

noncoml3• 9 years ago

I don’t see anything justifying the price bump.

briandear5• 9 years ago

Did you not see the array of cameras and sensors in the front? Or the longer battery life? Or the 4+2 core chip? Or the reengineered OLED? Were you actually sleeping during the announcement? Serious question.

mynegation• 9 years ago

You both can be right: you are talking about costs and noncoml is talking about perceived value to hirself.

noncoml3• 9 years ago

Did you not see the array of cameras and sensors in the front?

If they don't add any value to me, I don't really care.

Or the longer battery life?

Doesn't justify $300+ price bump

Or the 4+2 core chip?

New chips come out every day and they are priced at the same price or lower than the older generation at the day it was introduced.

Or the reengineered OLED?

You mean the one similar to Samsung S8?

Were you actually sleeping during the announcement? Serious question.

Why do you have to be offensive?

Brendinooo2• 9 years ago

My understanding was that there'd be a constrained supply of the OLEDs in particular, so this is priced to sell at lower volumes than the SE/6S/7/8.

joezydeco3• 9 years ago

But the funny thing is that this pricing will backfire and the scarcity of the X will move it into the Veblen zone.

Markoff4• 9 years ago

truth, cost twice as much as S8 and I fail to see justification for double price - slightly smaller bezels top and bottom bezels (but huge bezel/frame all around), telephoto (OK, though pretty ueless) and inconvenient face id (overfingeprint)?

anything which cost more than S8 must have serious benefits over S8

fuzzythinker2• 9 years ago

Fun fact. The iPhone 7 "Overview" link[1] on their iPhone 7 page redirects to the iPhone X. Bug? Or a bit over pushing the new product?

[1] https://www.apple.com/iphone-7

tkxxx7• 9 years ago

it redirects to /iphone, where the X is featured prominently, but you can reach them all.

edit: so does /iphone-6, but not /iphone-6s..

einrealist4• 9 years ago

I cannot get around the missing headphone jack. My headphones cost more than this new iPhone :(

sunsetMurk3• 9 years ago

ditto - I'm fearing dongles in all of our futures.

fnordsensei• 9 years ago

They're clearly banking on wireless chargers becoming mainstream and ubiquitous, leaving the lightning connector for headphones. The dongle madness seems less mad if you can charge all your doodads with the one watchacallit.

snom3803• 9 years ago

Is the sound quality of the lightning to headphone jack adapter inferior to the built-in DAC of previous models?

kuschku5• 9 years ago

I’d think the problem is in having to carry an adapter with you all the time, which is easy to forget.

duskwuff2• 9 years ago

Nope. According to this guy, it's actually slightly better.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-qua...

plandis2• 9 years ago

Is the DAC even good enough in the iPhone at that point? Even if you had a straight jack audiophile headphones are probably not getting much benefit over, say, Bose headphones are they?

einrealist4• 9 years ago

The internal DAC is good enough when I am on my feet. Its more about stability and convenience than sound quality in this situation. Its inconvenient to carry an additional adapter which gets accidently disconnected more easily than a jack.

I use an external DAC (Beyerdynamic A200p) when I use my notebook or my iPhone stationary.

Edit: I use Shure SE846 as headphones.

adrr3• 9 years ago

Does a DAC even matter? Would love to see blind test showing they make a difference.

duskwuff2• 9 years ago

Apple's DACs are excellent. Here's an analysis of the Lightning adapter, for instance:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-qua...

BurningFrog• 9 years ago

It wasn't the only reason I switched to a Pixel after 10 iPhone years, but it probably was what made the decision so easy.

saagarjha20• 9 years ago

Rumors say that Pixel 2 is dropping the jack as well, so it looks like many manufacturers are following suit.

briandear5• 9 years ago

I'm still looking for a place to plug in my expensive 5mb SCSI drive.

zeveb• 9 years ago

The difference, of course, is that while a SCSI drive is out-of-date, a headphone jack is not; it is, in fact, superior in every way to a Bluetooth audio connexion.

brailsafe2• 9 years ago

That's going to require a few adapters.

anthonybsd3• 9 years ago

I'm sorry, but if you have headphones of such grade why are you sticking them into phones in the first place? As opposed to something like Astell and Kern offerings?

einrealist4• 9 years ago

External DACs are inconvenient when I just walk around. Also the iPhone DACs are good enough when I am mobile. There is almost always noise around me anyway, even if the IEMs are good at isolation.

The reason to buy these expensive headphones is not only sound quality, but build quality. Before I bought better IEMs, normal / cheap in-ear headphones lasted like 3 to 6 months.

PeppermintGrade3• 9 years ago

I think there is already a case you can buy for the previous iPhone which has a headphone jack included.

reaperducer2• 9 years ago

How's that floppy drive working out for ya?

KZeillmann• 9 years ago

How does the "Home" gesture work with games that require gestures? If someone has a game that requires flicking items upward from the bottom of the screen, will that now be impossible? I don't have an iPhone, but I'm assuming that games like Flippy Knife and Flip Master, currently #1 and #2 on the Play store, could run into issues.

joeld42• 9 years ago

A swipe up that starts past the edge of the screen is already a different gesture than a regular swipe. It works the same way as the current phone (swipe up from bottom brings up the "control center").

sailfast2• 9 years ago

Yes, but I've seen this control center option get buggy when apps require similar low-swipe gestures. It would be quite frustrating to deal with this without a home button option. Nevermind how annoying it would be if (god forbid) your screen cracked a bit and lowered the touch fidelity slightly.

bhnmmhmd11• 9 years ago

Yes, but you could disable Ctrl Center in Apps.

maratd• 9 years ago

Ok, so how do you bring up the control center now?

BinaryIdiot5• 9 years ago

Sorta. I've constantly opened the notifications or the control center on current and past iPhones in games that require swiping. Maybe I'm not precise enough when playing but I do it so frequently that I'm pretty confident I would accidentally close some apps in this case.

Still, I'm glad they're trying something different. I'm curious how it turns out.

dkonofalski7• 9 years ago

If it works anything close to how it does currently, you have to swipe from off the bottom bevel to the top. If you look at all the screenshots and videos, there's a small bar there.

Current apps ignore input that starts on the bevel and only detect it if it starts and ends on screen.

pritambarhate3• 9 years ago

Do you think phones are a "done" thing? I mean what we are seeing these days is more of an evolution than revolution. With iPhone X I think we know what the phone industry will move towards for next 4 years.

All these features are cool and somewhat exciting but nothing groundbreaking that will change computing/communications forever.

VR was supposed to be the game changer but it appears that it will also take around 4-5 years at least to be mainstream.

What do you think will bring the next revolution in personal computing and communications?

TekMol3• 9 years ago

Glasses that make you see the interface as good as a monitor would be a huge step forward.

It's awesome that now we have a supercomputer in our pocket that is stuffed with sensors, needs no cables and is always connected to the internet. But looking at it is still cumbersome.

hfourm• 9 years ago

I really wish a phone company would just make a "macbook pro" of the phone world. Something where the hardware and battery can keep up with the OS for the next 4 years. Something where every new OS release isn't destroying my performance, and maybe even MAKING my performance better.

We are getting all this new tech in the phone space, faster processors, more ram, etc. But prices keep going up for "premium" experiences. Seems backwards to me

hellofunk6• 9 years ago

Something where the hardware and battery can keep up with the OS for the next 4 years.

I'm still using a 6 year old iPhone on the current OS without problems. And battery is working fine too.

Helmet• 9 years ago

You just described iphone....seriously, my iphone 5 still works great, as does my 2012 macbook pro (admittedly, i swapped in a ssd + ram)

snom3803• 9 years ago

My iPhone 6 is from 2014, next year it'll still run a supported OS that seems to be about as snappy as the previous version. Assuming a yearly iOS release that's 4 years next year (assuming they stop supporting iPhone 6 in iOS 12).

I think prices have stayed pretty much the same or become lower over the years. You can get a 64GB iPhone 8 this year for $699, vs $749 for the iPhone 6 in 2014. I think the iPhone 8 is still a pretty "premium" experience, even if Apple now has a more fancy and more expensive model.

Osmium4• 9 years ago

Do you think phones are a "done" thing? I mean what we are seeing these days is more of an evolution than revolution.

It's always been an evolution. What we're seeing now is a trend towards cellular everywhere, and device-agnostic services (same phone number on your Apple Watch as your iPhone). The next shift seems like it will be greater situational awareness in your devices -- your device can understand its surroundings (ARKit), and what you look like (Face ID).

So phones as a category may lose their uniqueness, in that other devices can fill the same roll, but I think we'll always see an evolution of a phone -- that is, a pocketable connected computing device.

aeleos3• 9 years ago

It wasn't always an evolution. Despite all the apple "oh we changed everything look at us" they really did. And for the first few years after that everything was changing so fast it was a revolution. But it has since slowly died out and I guess new technologies with faster innovation will become the new iphone revolution

yeukhon5• 9 years ago

Do you mean AR? I am not sure how VR is going to change the phone/mobile industry. You need to wear some kind of glasses to actually experience VR. I think you are referring to augmented reality, but correct me if I am wrong.

When it comes to AR, I am not interested in those "look at the pokemon on the street" kind of AR. I'd like projection on the street from the device. I want the Apple Watch to show me a hologram like in Star War. That's the kind of real AR I want to see. I will enjoy driving if map can be projected like hologram on the car windshield so I don't have to check the app on the side.

I think the next breakthrough is just happening now: all cashless transactions. This is already happening in China, India, and some country in Europe (I forgot which one, but over there even newspaper street vendors accept credit cards). US is way behind. Also, chip in human will eventually take off. So just wait for more human-wearable integrations (and this is depressing and dangerous, see my comment below). I bet in no more than 10 years.

omg_ketchup2• 9 years ago

Pokemon on the street was a great way to introduce the public to the concept of AR, but you're right- that's not how it's going to work. As long as our phones are the "lens" into the augmented reality, it will stay out of the mainstream.

We need Google Glass, Spectacles, or some equivalent AR device. All of that stuff you're talking about- projecting onto the street, onto the windshield, etc... that's setting the bar very low. We'll be able to do all of that on a per-user basis once we have AR glasses.

And those are hard problems to solve- projecting holograms into daylight without a surface? Good luck outshining the sun without overheating your tiny pocket projector. They all require unique solutions tailored to the problem and the environment they'll be used in. Why bother with that, when you can either work on AR glasses, or wait until AR glasses are readily available, which is pretty much an inevitability.

pritambarhate3• 9 years ago

I meant VR only. But I was referring to it from a personal computing perspective - How it can change learning and training experience.

However after reading your comment and the one below which mentions quality AR glasses which can replace a monitor will be really revolutionary on how we approach computing.

Yes, cashless is something truly revolutionary. Being in India I am personally experiencing the change that it is brining in.

cymbalrush2• 9 years ago

I want one computing device, or an iPhone that can run OSX (or some future OS thats a blended version of IOS and OSX). Like a Switch that I can take me, or plug in at home and get more power/features.

pritambarhate3• 9 years ago

yes, That will be great. There are some Android players trying to do it. I think Samsung also tried it but it was premature. And no big player is really pushing it. If Apple pulls it off with their eco-system of apps and quality hardware, it can be a big shift in personal computing.

david-cako2• 9 years ago

Been saying this forever -- this is the next HUGE leap that I see. Steve Jobs wanted the iPad to be a small Mac rather than a big iPhone. For someone like me, there are still critical things missing from the iPhone for it to be my primary computing device.

zaroth16• 9 years ago

Placing my phone next to my 30" monitor and bluetooth keyboard/mouse should make the macOS VM running on my iPhone X resume from hibernate and just start running.

The more interesting thing is how tightly connected the macOS VM could be with the iOS VM (I use the term VM here loosly, they could easily be containers living side-by-side and not within a literal hypervisor).

For example, are there two processes running 'Mail' and two copies of every message so that iOS and macOS Mail apps are both working? Do I have to configure them both separately to connect to my accounts? That would be quite silly.

If you can get the two OSs sharing resources but still effectively providing desktop sized vs phone sized user interfaces that could be something quite powerful.

chch• 9 years ago

Though it didn't run iOS (and the little detail that it never came out) the "single computing device" model was one of my favorite selling points of the Ubuntu Edge [1]:

"From mobile... to desktop. Yes, it’s the full Ubuntu desktop OS used by millions on a daily basis -- and it runs directly from the phone, so you’ll be able to move seamlessly from one environment to the other with no file syncing or transfers required. The core OS and applications are fully integrated with their smartphone equivalents, so you can even make and receive calls from the desktop while you work."

[1] https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge#/

bhauer2• 9 years ago

Several implementations of such a concept have been done, one being Microsoft's Continuum [1]. If there is a future Windows 10 "mobile device" running Windows 10 ARM with x86 emulation, as has been rumored, it will likely use CShell [2], their new adaptable/responsive UI model.

[1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/Continuum

[2] https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-cshell

mschaef7• 9 years ago

Do you think phones are a "done" thing?

The basic pattern of mobile phone design was more or less settled in the 80's with the DynaTac, and the phones leading up to (but not including) the original iPhone were all refinements of that same original pattern. The same thing happened with smart phones: the original iPhone set the pattern and then there've been a number of refinements ever since.

I'm not saying the refinements aren't huge improvements (particularly when viewed collectively over a period of 10 years), but just that the basic pattern is relatively fixed most of the time.

All these features are cool and somewhat exciting but nothing groundbreaking that will change computing/communications forever.

Personally, I'm not that excited about a world where there are are continual 'groundbreaking changes that will change computing/communications forever'. There's a lot to be said for consolidating the gains made in these periodic steps up in functionality, and taking the time to understand the new capabilities offered by each.

fenwick674• 9 years ago

The iPhone was not a total revolution in phones the way you describe. They did not invent the touchscreen phone nor the smartphone. They improved them.

robotresearcher4• 9 years ago

mobile phone design was more or less settled in the 80's with the DynaTac

The Star Trek communicator nailed the flip-phone design in 1966. The StarTac in 1996 was able to realize this: a quite different design from the DynaTac brick and its candy bar descendents.

PeppermintGrade3• 9 years ago

I think in the future, we'll see the iPhone A.

A solid, feature-less block of aluminum.

stcredzero2• 9 years ago

With chamfered edges!

mschaef7• 9 years ago

The past as the future:

http://pretotyping.blogspot.com/2010/08/one-of-my-favorite-p...

baby3• 9 years ago

the HTC Vive.

rodolphoarruda• 9 years ago

I believe we are already living it. It is happening right now after the introduction of services like Whatsapp and WeChat. And all due to their simplicity and user friendliness. They just work for 99% of most modern world daily tasks, and solve a whole bunch of problems one way or the other. So maybe the real challenge for personal computing is connecting these wonder tools to everything else in world that is still complicated or hard to use, making them easy to use or accessible.

snom3803• 9 years ago

That you don't have a revolution like the first iPhone doesn't mean it's ever "done". When you sum up all the boring, evolutionary changes over the last 10 years you end up with something pretty outstanding. Especially if you compare it to the previous 10 years before that (back when operators more or less decided the feature set of the phones they would sell).

I doubt there will be another big revolution in personal computing until you have direct brain communication (implants or sensors/transmitters that look unobtrusive).

A cell phone iWatch could change its usecase quite substantially, but whether it'll find new uses remains to be seen.

agumonkey9• 9 years ago

These aren't phones anymore anyway. More portable data with communication.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

More and more people don't own computers any more. They just use their phone for everything.

DigitalJack3• 9 years ago

What we call a phone will evolve. Some great communication device or method will come about.

Pocket computers are pretty handy though. Maybe it will evolve into wrist computers or necklaces or something. The smart watches are coming along, but they all have the problem of screen real estate.

To be fair, phones have it too, but with the various zoom features and "readability" modes, they work around it.

I think we'll have something akin to the smartphones (whether or not they include a phone feature) until we have portable, practical, hands-free displays.

It will probably be a fashion accessory that rasters directly on the retina.

programbreeding3• 9 years ago

I don't have much to add, only to say that I generally agree.

I first started creating custom roms for the Sprint HTC Hero when it came out in 2009. It was my first Android phone and I was in love with everything about it. I was obsessed with getting the next new phone with new features every time a new one came out. I made pretty good money and saved most of it; buying new phones was the one thing I would splurge on.

Now it's 2017 and I have had the same phone for just under 2 years. Previously I wouldn't go 6 months without buying a new phone, so having the same one for 2 years seems like a lifetime. But I just don't feel like I have a reason to get a new one.

It feels like the same thing over and over again.

problems3• 9 years ago

I've felt the same way. I went from crappy low-end Android devices when I had no money in school to a Nexus 4 and I haven't seen reason to upgrade since. The only reasons I've done so have been because I cracked a screen and because I wanted to hand down a device to someone else. Been sitting on my OnePlus One for a few years - looking at the market now and not seeing any reason to upgrade still.

Worse, I get worried about some newer devices which may make me less free - the Pixel has a very locked down boot process and the Magisk developer has been struggling to support it. I currently use Android Pay on my rooted device and I'm definitely not willing to pay to lose that freedom.

Kratisto• 9 years ago

I always feel like around the 2 year mark my phone feels very different compared to when I bought it. Battery feels worse, everything feels slower, and crashes start to accumulate. Are you not running into this?

coldtea10• 9 years ago

Do you think phones are a "done" thing? I mean what we are seeing these days is more of an evolution than revolution.

Evolution is how we got from primitive sea creatures to man.

What do you think will bring the next revolution in personal computing and communications?

I think that there have not been many revolutions in personal computing and communications. It's all incremental evolution. The only actual big revolution was the invention of the digital computer and of networking.

Beyond that, well:

There were computers at homes before everybody got one.

There were mobile phones, even touch phones, before the iPhone and mp3 players before the iPod.

There were tablets before the iPad.

There was "internet" and "www" (ARPAnet, minitel etc) before the internet and the world wide web.

There were social networks before Facebook.

Heck, there were actually newspaper columns chronicling a person's opinions and everyday life before blogs.

twblalock2• 9 years ago

I think phones are "done" in the same way laptops are "done" -- the form factor is established, and now it's about incremental improvements like better screens, better cameras, faster processors, AR, etc.

Unless someone invents a phone screen that can roll up like a piece of paper, I think phones are going to look the same for a long time.

tannhaeuser2• 9 years ago

Yet Apple has, for the first time in years IMHO, just delivered something worth discussing and mildly tempting.

21• 9 years ago

Phones are far from being done.

See for example this foldable paper computer concept: https://youtu.be/F3i7KBPAx4A?t=66

DamnInteresting• 9 years ago

I love the idea of docking a phone to use the data/apps thereon, but with a larger display, ethernet, mouse, etc. I wrote an article about the concept back in 2005, and yet still, I wait.

singularity20015• 9 years ago

"Our vision has always been to create an iPhone that is entirely screen." so they failed thus far

singularity20015• 9 years ago

It looks ok on the homescreen but they should disable the corners for videos.

Shivetya2• 9 years ago

just looking at their own website it becomes so glaring on any screen where the background isn't black. for me it actually looks worse than keeping a border area.

gordon_freeman• 9 years ago

No. What Ive means by that is they were bound by the constraints in technology so far so they could not achieve this vision so far.

This is similar to what James Cameron said after filming 'Avatar' that his vision was to create such a film for more than a decade but slow technology advancement was the reason he could not make this film sooner.

colordrops• 9 years ago

Yes, they have failed so far. It's not all screen. It's got a small bezel and the sensor notch at the top. They will need to develop different materials to support a strong bezel-free phone and sensors that sit inside/behind the screen. They are not there yet.

naravara3• 9 years ago

"Our vision has always been to create an iPhone that is entirely screen." so they failed thus far

This mentality is why our political system is so disfunctional.

BinaryIdiot5• 9 years ago

This mentality is why our political system is so disfunctional.

Is it? I thought it was simply a tongue in cheek response. Didn't seem entirely seriously to me.

fenwick674• 9 years ago

And are still failing.

jedberg• 9 years ago

There is a difference between goals and vision.

HugoDaniel2• 9 years ago

Does it mean that the next version will be called Iphony ?

alfonsodev• 9 years ago

they can also go XL, XXL, XXXL and so on :p

HugoDaniel2• 9 years ago

or even XI XII XII. Hail caesar or something.

SadWebDeveloper4• 9 years ago

iPhone X "Pro"

simonh5• 9 years ago

iPhone X Cheetah.

jaxondu• 9 years ago

My guess is it will be called iPhone X Series 2. Also iPhone 8/8 Plus next year will change to "iPhone" and "iPhone Plus". All follow the same Apple Watch naming as they can't have iPhone 10/iPhone 10 Plus. They keep the "8" this year probably for the hope to gain market share in China as people there like the number "8".

iamwil• 9 years ago

Just checking, this isn't with a see-through glass, right? The phone isn't translucent.

kayoone• 9 years ago

No, A See-through phone is something Robert Scoble predicted since last year, but i never bought his hype and even the AR stuff is not really ground breaking.

nicky0• 9 years ago

Did he also predict see-through batteries and chips?

nnd3• 9 years ago

With all that hype building up, I was hoping they would introduce something less underwhelming than an iPhone without a home button like you know... a new wearable.

Tempest19813• 9 years ago

New watch with cellular: https://www.apple.com/apple-watch-series-3/

acconrad• 9 years ago

My god that is the longest product advertising page I have ever seen, and that includes those long form ads selling those gimmicky products.

EasyTiger_• 9 years ago

I usually enjoy scrolling through Apple's product pages, they're often quite interesting design-wise. This one is way overdone.

cpeterso• 9 years ago

The page is so long that I didn't realize it existed. I saw the big "X" logo and assumed the page was still a "coming soon" teaser, so I closed the tab. Only after reading your comment did I realize I needed to scroll to see the content below the fold. :)

samrohn7782• 9 years ago

~15mb !

foepys• 9 years ago

And about 50% of that is just about the camera. Do phone manufacturers still see the camera as the most important thing in their phone? I'd have thought that years of over-promising lowered the customers expectations anyways.

edflsafoiewq• 9 years ago

Its detection of how far I'd scrolled down was also off; the images kept "popping in" at higher and higher levels on the screen until by half-way down the page they were presumably entirely off-screen because I couldn't see anything else at all. Extremely unpleasant reading experience.

nunez8• 9 years ago

These keynotes were magical before leakers leaked everything. I'm wondering if Apple should scrap these and aim for smaller, unplanned releases instead.

As far as this phone goes, I am really excited to see how it stacks up to the Galaxy S8. Face ID is incredibly enticing, but Samsung Pay is much more universal. The only thing that is making me want to retreat back to an iPhone is its inferior Bluetooth audio quality.

godzillabrennus• 9 years ago

Yeah the leaks gave this entire presentation away.

We are at peak Apple. If I may borrow a similar peak story I'd look at Microsoft and the release of Windows XP. Balmer banked on that cash cow for far too long.

Tim Cook is doing the same thing here.

They need to buy Tesla and put Musk in charge of Apple.

Everything they do these days is just another way to milk the money machine for them.

They need a world class micromanaging innovator at the helm.

baby3• 9 years ago

The problem is that a bad release of a novel product will make them uncool and will crash them on the market.

bhnmmhmd11• 9 years ago

Exactly!

Tim talked about Steve's legacy, but really, was SJ's dream to build a stale stagnating company? Did he prefer money over putting a dent in the universe?

archagon• 9 years ago

Ugh, no. Goodbye privacy and corporate ethics, hello creepy analytics.

artursapek4• 9 years ago

I don't think Musk would be enticed by the prospect of heading up a company that's focused on animating poop emojis. He's busy saving our species.

pvg• 9 years ago

We seem to be at peak Apple year after year, as it continues to inexplicably churn out new products and rake in money. Tim Cook somehow keeps popping up on stage with something new, devoid of vision and utterly oblivious he's standing on the precipice of catastrophic decline. Again.

coldtea10• 9 years ago

Because random advice from internet armchair experts would have worked wonders for them in the past have they followed it. I mean they're only breaking record after record, poor them...

valuearb5• 9 years ago

You guys have been saying it's peak Apple for almost a decade. I'm tired of waiting, when do we get to the other side?

rmrfrmrf8• 9 years ago

I actually thought Tim Cook did a great job this time around. For the first time in a while, I got that "reality distortion field" feeling that I haven't had since Steve Jobs had been the presenter. I think these keynotes go a long way to sell the product. Admittedly, I haven't seen any of the leaks, so yeah I'm sure it's not as cool if you know what's coming, however I do remember from past leaks that they tend to leave out the narrative (just opting for raw features, photos, etc.) that don't really do justice to the product.

TheRealDunkirk• 9 years ago

Within seconds, I really got the impression that he's been working on his presentation skills. I agree; much improved. The dramatic tension was noticeably better.

nunez8• 9 years ago

While I think Tim was much more expressive this time around, I still think he sounds too stiff and rehearsed. The one thing that Steve did incredibly well was make his keynotes sound improvised, even though they weren't. I'm not sure if Tim will ever get there, as it's kind of a character trait. Phil and Cue are better at it, IMO.

gknight• 9 years ago

One way he's made these keynotes his own is by the humanity he's injecting into them. I've noticed that whenever there's a big keynote after some big crisis or tragedy, he'll acknowledge them in a very sincere way. I'm still moved by his brief remarks and moment of silence after the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando.

make3• 9 years ago

Having worked at Apple, the company feels like complete stress apocalypse all around for the 2 months before the fall major releases. I'm pretty sure no one would fall for the unplanned release thing, and that leaks would still happen

xtreme• 9 years ago

If some leaks can reduce the reaction to a product from magical to meh, perhaps the reaction was engineered by hype and not actual quality or features of said product.

To be concise, if something is truly groundbreaking, leaks don't diminish their value.

bdibs4• 9 years ago

It doesn't diminish their value, but it takes away from the magic and showmanship behind the whole event.

hashmal• 9 years ago

these events (and many other things like unboxing the product) are a big part of the experience that apple wants. not everyone like it, not everyone cares about that side of things (and that's ok!), but for those who like these experiences, a leak is just like someone spoiling what happens in a movie.

ballenf2• 9 years ago

It's no different than show or movie spoilers. Do they make the show less enjoyable? Does that reflect on the production quality?

People enjoy the keynotes for the suspense and shared joy and excitement.

Leakers of movies, shows or new device features do take away some joy from some people. For me, the fact that 99% of the features are available in some form on another phone already (unlike early iPhones) is a bigger spoiler than the leaks.

I love seeing how Apple can take existing common features and take them to 11 and it's why I've come back to iPhone.

nunez8• 9 years ago

I'm not so sure about that. Even though the iPhone 4 got HARD leaked, it was still such a diverge from the competition when Steve and Co keynoted it.

All of the X leaks had me wondering "I hope they have more to this because this is effectively a S8;" the keynote didn't change my opinion.

westiseast• 9 years ago

Meh. This and any of the last few keynotes would have been magical if they'd shown something that actually did something new.

What they've shown is just fancy new technology to do the same old things - great, now I can lock my screen in a different way!

1_2__4• 9 years ago

They were also magical when they were announcing new, incredible features instead of small iterative improvements.

seanp2k2• 9 years ago

The front-facing dot projector and dual cameras

qq665• 9 years ago

What were the new incredible features that are missing now? Seems like the iPhone has been a pretty steady march forward in terms of processor, memory, storage, screen, camera, hardware features, and the software enabled by the hardware capabilities. Why is this release underwhelming?

geff822• 9 years ago

Honestly, my wife and I had no previous exposure to leaks besides "there will be something expensive".

And then it felt like the real Apple magic. We sat there and at every product presented we said "Wow, we want this. NOW!". While the iPhone 8 still felt quite normal, the iPhone X absolutely killed it for us. And let's not begin with the eSim-Watch... which is so SciFi that I wanted it back in 1990 when I was still 8 years old. We have to appreciate that there is more to life than revolution, Apple "simple" does evolution at a very high level and in the end, they lead the competitors. Today, we could see the stuff that Samsung and others will get right in a year or two. When Apple already presents their next evolution... It is not about having the right specs, but the right concept. I already know the friend who will come to me tomorrow that his HTC has and 8 core processor while Apple has only six. The point is: it is all useless without the whole package being perfect. And while Apple is freaking expensive upfront, the peace of mind is worth it.

kingnothing• 9 years ago

Similar watches with LTE have been available from Samsung and others for years. Objectively speaking, Apple's latest watch isn't anything special.

nunez8• 9 years ago

I'm glad you enjoyed it but I should have you know that Apple is using a Samsung display and Samsung has been leading the pack in OLED display technology for at least the last 5 years. In fact, the S8 has a crisper screen than the X with its Super Retina display (570 ppi vs 471 ppi)

noen• 9 years ago

I was an iPhone user from the 3GS until my 6+ finally bit the bullet, and refused to give up the headphone jack. I genuinely love the iPhone and MacBooks.

I've been using the Galaxy S8+ since launch. And the Note 8 is, by any definition, as good or better than the iPhone X.

If you haven't used a Samsung phone lately, go try an S8 or Note 8. They have "the package" down. It just works, and doesn't require a PC or iTunes. I don't care about speeds and feeds. I care about how the phone operates on a daily basis.

iPhone X has FaceID and pin# to login. Samsung has face, retina, touch and pin options.

The Note 8 is cheaper, with expandable storage, a higher density display (with the same white balance adjustment), stylus, side-by-side applications, a headphone jack, samsung pay, and NFC.

(There are probably many more, but these are things I use on a daily basis, or very frequently in the real world)

The iPhone has iMessage and Facetime.

Seriously, it's worth a sniff of the other side of the pond. It took me 2 hours to transfer everything - contacts, media, apps. And another day to get the UI sorted (there's even an "ios mode" for the launcher that acts almost exactly like the ios interface). I still use an iphone often for work and it's honestly painful going back to it, there are so many little annoying papercut experiences.

hesarenu2• 9 years ago

Do you how many I have triggered the hidden side bottom panels while browsing, scrolling. iOS is far from been perfect.

burnte4• 9 years ago

I'm not normally a shit-on-Apple/Android-is-amazing guy, I'm actually typing this on a MacBook Pro right now. But let's reel it in for a moment. Edge to edge screen, Galaxy S8. Smart watch: Pebble, Galaxy Gear, ZenWatch, etc. SmartWatch with cell service that isn't huge: Galaxy Gear S2 3G (frankly, I think better looking than the Apple Watch). Wireless charging: YEARS go in dozens of Android phones. The only thing announced today that Apple very well may have done "right" is the face recognition. Nothing else today was new or r/evolutionary. Yes, Apple frequently does things right that other people have failed on. The iPhone truly revolutionized the smartphone, the iPad made the tablet a non-crap market, iPod was fantastic, but let's not pretend everything today was iPhone 1 level amazing.

puranjay2• 9 years ago

I'll admit that I had written off Apple in the last few years. Felt that they couldn't get their mojo back after Jobs' departure.

This felt very different. The iPhone X is the first iPhone I've seen in a while that I want.

Same for Apple Watch. I'd written it off but the eSim makes it a very alluring buy

roryisok• 9 years ago

Apple is freaking expensive upfront, the peace of mind is worth it.

Carrying a device worth $1000 around with me all day would not give me peace of mind. Quite the opposite. I'd rather carry a battered hand me down and not feel sick in my stomach if it falls off arm of the couch

ovao3• 9 years ago

The leaks tend to be a consequence of their supply chain not being able to keep tight lips more than anything else. One approach to combat that would be to announce a product well in advance of production, but then you have announcements followed by six or more months of production ramp-up. Which is obviously awful.

Until Apple is able to bring much more in-house, which they can't realistically do in most cases involving manufacturing, the leaks are inevitable.

If you want to maintain the magic for yourself, though, that's simpler: don't look at Macrumors or what have you :)

roflchoppa• 9 years ago

I always thought that the leaks were deliberate to create media hype around the products.

fiatpandas2• 9 years ago

This latest keynote was pretty much completely spoiled due to a leak which came internally from Apple (URLs to golden master iphone firmware). I was really surprised that happened. I follow Macrumors pretty closely so I'm used to seeing a lot of hardware leaks over the years from manufacturing partners, but this fall's leaks were kind of insane.

mcintyre1994• 9 years ago

Homepod firmware leaked via their website, then a GM of iOS11 leaked - that's why these leaks were so high confidence. Software is something they couldn't bring more in house, these leaks were on them.

MBCook27• 9 years ago

That's the thing though there were almost no supply-chain leaks this time. It wasn't a bunch of different cases and other parts that let us know what was going on.

It was leaks of software images, and those revealed WAY more than case leaks ever could have.

yodsanklai2• 9 years ago

These keynotes were magical before leakers leaked everything

Even without leaks, there's usually nothing really surprising in the keynotes. You get the usual hardware and software upgrade you would expect from a year to the next. Far from magical, I find these keynotes stereotypical. The fake enthusiasm, the marketing buzzwords and the endless flow of superlatives are sometimes painful to watch. I almost feel bad buying their products after seeing this (unfortunately they still make the best laptops!).

659087• 9 years ago

(unfortunately they still make the best laptops!)

Are they still soldering hard drives and memory down? That pretty much permanently drove me away from their laptops.

xraystyle• 9 years ago

The only thing that is making me want to retreat back to an iPhone is its inferior Bluetooth audio quality.

The S8 has AptX, which in my experience is really quite good. Once Android O drops for that phone you'll have AptX HD and LDAC as well. I've got a pair of Sony headphones. Running LDAC from my Pixel XL on Android O to them, sounds CD quality to me.

mrpippy2• 9 years ago

iOS has supported AAC over Bluetooth A2DP for years. For some reason, it's not as widely supported by headphone makers as aptX.

nunez8• 9 years ago

None of the headphones I use support AptX (Bragi Dash Pro, AirPods, Jaybird Freedoms); nor do any car audio receiver I know of.

bitmapbrother2• 9 years ago

The majority of these leaks came from Apple itself.

bitmapbrother2• 9 years ago

It would seem there are people ignorant on the subject. The majority of the leaks came from firmware prematurely release from Apple. A second leak was from iOS 11 GA download links.

toephu23• 9 years ago

Only apple fanboys checked out leaks. The average consumer did not look up leaks before the event.

eblanshey• 9 years ago

FYI android oreo is getting high quality Bluetooth support.

yoz-y4• 9 years ago

Does Samsung Pay work with more banks where you live? In France there is no support for it (due to come this month but still no dice). I suppose that both can be used anywhere you could use a contactless credit card.

(Aside: in France you can use Apple Pay anywhere a bank card would work up to 20€ but in shops with explicit support there is no limit, few have it though)

madshiva3• 9 years ago

You've been fooled. There was never magical, only a hype train.

Apple sell expansive product without argumentation about the technology. People who fall in this scheme are too easy tricked. I buy because of the technology, support not because I see a keynote. What a waste of time to see Apple Keynote and how they never had real innovation that increase the price by 2.

It's 2017, almost 2018 and Apple continue to over price the storage and you all support them?

It's just a phone, what do you want magic behind a phone?

tcfunk2• 9 years ago

Suddenly a 128gb iPhone 6s for $549 sounds like a heck of a deal...

Kevin_S• 9 years ago

I actually think I might pick one up. In fact I may look for a 2 for 1 deal on the 6s.

I'm headed back to Apple after having an Android ever since my IPhone 4, I'm just done with Android. I love my 6s work phone.

I think I'll just be choosing between the 6s and a 7.

tcfunk2• 9 years ago

Can I ask what your frustrations are with Android? I was actually thinking about going to the Google Pixel, but it's been a while since I've used an Android phone as my day-to-day device.

bowmessage• 9 years ago

Just switched to a 6s from an LG G4. I still have my headphone jack and the whole experience is so much better. Only thing I miss are my homescreen widgets.

Angostura4• 9 years ago

Check out the price of the SE.

saagarjha20• 9 years ago

It now starts at $349 for those wondering.

dangjc3• 9 years ago

Why are people comfortable carrying a $1000 piece of equipment that can be dropped or stolen in an instant in their pocket? My Nexus6p takes great pictures, runs everything smoothly, and I don't have to freak out as much if the $350 suddenly vanishes.

Uhhrrr• 9 years ago

Not thinking about it, or status seeking, or a weighted combination of both.

dewey2• 9 years ago

People also drive around in expensive cars on open roads with a lot distracted drivers. You an also get hit in an instant by one person not paying attention. You just have insurance for that, just like you have Apple Care or a similar insurance in case it happens.

komali27• 9 years ago

I also wonder about, for example, the Maserati I sometime see parked just on the street in Daly City.

I have a shitty car and a relatively cheap motorcycle exactly so I can confidently leave them in the city without worrying too much.

funnelsgun2• 9 years ago

Apple Care doesn't help if the phone is lost or stolen. However, I'm quite sure that the risk of damaging or losing a phone is much greater than the risk of crashing a car (at least in the UK and Western Europe). Hence, the price of phone insurance against the price of the phone is so much worse than the price of car insurance against the price of the car.

Then, does someone become lower risk the more time and experience with a phone, like no claims, age and sex profiling on car insurance, or is the price of insurance the same whether the customer is a 25 or 50 adult male.

flachsechs• 9 years ago

well, i'm a successful professional that's been working nearly every day for over 20 years, so... if i lost my phone i would simply buy another one.

is this a trick question or something? i'm not going to jump into a swimming pool on purpose, but losing my phone isn't something that concerns me.

falsedan• 9 years ago

Yes, it’s a trick to find entitled consumers who would really benefit from an all-inclusive no-questions instant replacement device protection plan! Just $9.99 per week will give you the piece of mind that you’ve been missing!

Just put your phone number, address, and credit card details on your HN bio and one of our prestigious client grooming agents will be personally in touch with you at your earliest convenience…

wrboyce7• 9 years ago

I'm not going to jump into a swimming pool on purpose

New models are waterproof, dive in ;)

euroclydon• 9 years ago

Is there any way to actually steal an iPhone any more? I think they're just bricks.

But, I completely agree with you otherwise. This thing is just too nice to keep in my pocket all day. Plus, I'm too spoiled to appreciate it. It's like the most awesome, user friendly camera known to man, with an onboard computer and phone -- and I'm not sure I care enough to use it.

baby3• 9 years ago

It's scary at first but I haven't lost or broken mine so far. Fingers crossed.

mercwear2• 9 years ago

My phone is the piece of equipment that gets the most use throughout the day so having every creature comfort & feature when using it makes sense to me. I'm not sold on the X but the price has almost no impact on my decision to purchase when it comes to phones.

greglindahl• 9 years ago

I use my phone for enough hours per day that I'm willing to spend quite a lot to get something that might be a little better.

hellofunk6• 9 years ago

Well, for starters, to some people $1000 is nothing. After all, there is a watch store down the street from me and all the watches start at $50,000. Some are a quarter million.

But there are other reasons too.

mschaef7• 9 years ago

That's a great question.

Given that I have a pile of four generations of smartphones sitting on my desk waiting to be recycled, it's also easy to visualize that brand new $1,000 iPhone X sitting in that pile in a few years time. The new phone looks great, but the marginal improvement over my existing phone doesn't look like it's worth $1,000. (Particularly in light of the opportunity costs involved.)

tomek_zemla• 9 years ago

For some it is a status symbol. Ask any teenager how make/model of the smartphone designates their social status at school... It is similar with other items. You can buy (second hand) jeans for $10 and you can buy designer jeans for $1000. Both are suitable to wear in most situations. Some people have no choice. Some don't mind spending (wasting?) $1000 on the high-end version. The features are not always the reason people buy things and this nowadays includes smartphones.

garethsprice2• 9 years ago

Most people don't pay anywhere near to the unlocked retail price of the phone (so they don't consider it to be a $1,000 device), and many have insurance. If I drop my iPhone (which I paid about $100 for out of pocket after rebates/incentives/trade-in/etc), it's a $99 deductible.

wrboyce7• 9 years ago

Insurance?

eddieh2• 9 years ago

I carry my iPhone, iPad, MacBook, Apple Watch, $300 headphones and $200 sunglasses with me everywhere. What's the big deal?

I've owned every iPhone from day one and use them without a case and without insurance. I've never had anything broken. I've never had anything stolen either.

vpresident• 9 years ago

Oh, no man. Now you jinxed it...

rmrfrmrf8• 9 years ago

I used to be like this until I went through 2 iPhone 7s in the span of a month (dropped both of them). Now I've accepted my fate as a loser case-using pleb for my phone :(. Props to you for fighting the good fight, though!

CamelCaseName• 9 years ago

There is a vast spectrum of personal situations where people can easily afford a $1000 phone every month to people who's monthly wage is less than the price of a $100 phone.

Different companies target different demographics who have varied preferences and utility functions.

SadWebDeveloper4• 9 years ago

You are carrying a time bomb, that phone (Nexus 6P) came with so many manufacturing issues that android 8.0 has added a special feature just to allow you to reset your phone in case of bootloop problems.

eco2• 9 years ago

Yeah, the 6P has a famously bad battery lifecycle. Many people's moderately aged phones just start shutting off even though it reports 30%+ battery remaining. Google has been pretty good about replacing them if you bought directly from them though and they recently just started giving people brand new Pixel XLs.

I assume they are doing this mostly because of an inventory surplus combined with "Pixel 2" less than a month away but it's still nice of them to do it even though these phones are a year out of warranty for a lot of people getting these replacements. Even with the Pixel 2 out they could likely sell the older Pixels for a few hundred bucks.

wmeredith3• 9 years ago

Plenty of people wear watches/jewelry that are worth more than this. My wallet, sans cash, is arguably worth more than $1000 to me if I had to replace everything in it. The value extracted from carrying the thing around is obviously worth more than the risk.

SXX• 9 years ago

For same reason why people comfortable to pay for their car maintenance might be? There is always hidden cost of owning something and everyone can decide whatever they want to take a risk or not. Many of us here buy high-end PC hardware even if we know in 2 years it's price will likely drop up to 2-3 times so I don't see why phones are any different.

Also personally over last 10 years I lived in different parts of the world including Europe and Asian countries and worse and none of my devices or personal things were ever stolen and I only break few devices. So might be it's just less of problem for some especially considering many people rarely go outside of their usual home / office or travel to countries with high risk of theft.

dangjc3• 9 years ago

I've traveled a lot too, and haven't ever had things stolen. But I know people who have. One of my friends had his iphone in a waterproof protector strapped around his neck for Songkram in Bangkok, and someone in the crowd walked right up behind him with a scissors and cut the string and ran off . He had a second phone stolen shortly after. Luckily he works in travel insurance and was a big believer, so everything was fully insured! Maybe the bad stories just stick out and are the exception not the rule.

rmrfrmrf8• 9 years ago

I personally don't think it's healthy to operate under the assumption that my belongings will get damaged, lost, or stolen.

petra• 9 years ago

For many, that's the point: to show others(inc. the opposite sex) that you are carrying a $1000 piece of equipment. But people prefer to invent other reasons.

sailfast2• 9 years ago

Do you use a laptop at a coffee shop occasionally?

dangjc3• 9 years ago

Yep, but laptops are treated with way more caution and attention. Phones are constantly whipped in and out, left on tables or benches, used around kitchens, toilets, swimming pools...

moxious• 9 years ago

Many people (particularly women) wear wedding rings worth more than this all the time.

sparkzilla• 9 years ago

Rings are not likely to slip off and break, though.

KVFinn• 9 years ago

Why are people comfortable carrying a $1000 piece of equipment that can be dropped or stolen in an instant in their pocket? My Nexus6p takes great pictures, runs everything smoothly, and I don't have to freak out as much if the $350 suddenly vanishes.

I think AppleCare+ insurance is a good deal here. I use the phone wherever/whenever and never sweat smashing it to bits. It also means I never both with screen protectors or cases (except for ones that add grip or just look interesting).

alkonaut5• 9 years ago

If I drop it, It doesn't cost $1000 it costs $100 (at least before this screen type). It won't be stolen as long as it's either in my hand or my front pocket all day (unless I'm mugged). But I have insurance for that. Basically I don't consider it a risk of a sudden loss of $1000.

Just parking my car is a risk of a sudden $1000 loss, even with insurance.

chrisper• 9 years ago

Actually it could easily be stolen out of your hand by someone on a bike.

nickjj• 9 years ago

My $20 flip phone survived falling 7 feet onto concrete without suffering a scratch without any type of case.

I never understood why vendors keep mentioning "thin" and "sleek" in the marketing, when most people end up getting a case which in turn makes it thicker than a 10 year old flip phone.

jorgemf2• 9 years ago

when the iPhone X SE?

fenwick674• 9 years ago

Iphone X One SE Plus

jorgemf2• 9 years ago

No plus, minus please. I am tired of big phones

skc2• 9 years ago

I'm wondering if it's easier or harder for cops to forcefully unlock your phone using faceID or touchID

gist• 9 years ago

This actually raises an interesting question. I say it's easier to do it since there appears on the surface to be less opportunity to mess up as with touch. Sure you could make a face etc but that just seems easier to do in stealth (not seen by cops as doing so) with a finger. [1]

Edit: As only one example you could in theory program a finger that wouldn't typically be used with touch id.

rosser2• 9 years ago

Cuff someone, pull their phone out of their pocket, hold it in front of their face. "Is this your phone? Oh, it looks like it is..."

How's that Fifth Amendment thing working out for you?

EDIT: There's legal precedent that specifically says you can be compelled to unlock your phone with your fingerprint, and that's not "testimonial" (that is, your right against self-incrimination isn't in play). There is zero reason to think FaceID will be treated any differently.

rpowers3• 9 years ago

Couldn't they do the exact same thing with your fingerprint?

garethsprice2• 9 years ago

https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/17/16161758/ios-11-touch-id-...

Interesting twist. There was advice going around for protestors to disable Touch ID as cops need a warrant for a keycode, but don't for a touch ID. Not sure how accurate that is, but presumably you can disable Face ID if you think you're at risk of being shaken down by the police.

bdibs4• 9 years ago

iOS 11 comes with a nice feature to temporarily disable Face and Touch ID if you're ever in this type of situation. Tap the power button 5 times and that's it.

skc2• 9 years ago

Yes but reaching for your phone can be lethal at least in the US.

lathiat7• 9 years ago

Given that it requires "attention" to unlock it seems like it would be HARDER to force this than TouchID.

Just look away or close your eyes.

forgot-my-pw• 9 years ago

What exactly is a bionic chip? Is it just the codename?

wmeredith3• 9 years ago

It's marketing BS.

scarlac6• 9 years ago

It's a CPU+GPU+ML-optimized chip. I'd say "Bionic" is a bit of a stretch from the marketing department but it's likely a reference to the neural network capabilities which are modeled after biology.

gshakir6• 9 years ago

Apple Watch is the new iPhone. The iPhone is becoming a home computer. Watch it.

saagarjha20• 9 years ago

I'd say iPad is Apple's vision for the home computer.

mads• 9 years ago

hellofunk6• 9 years ago

I think Apple needs to position themselves as a privacy concerned company

They have already been doing this for quite awhile. With their practices on device encryption, public stance on cooperating with police for unlocking devices, etc, they have made it a key differentiating factor between them an Android in many ways. And when it comes to security and privacy, you are incorrect when you say that all phones today are the same.

Throughout HN comments for the last couple years, it seems to be widely acknowledged that Apple offers the best privacy of the current mobile industry.

saagarjha20• 9 years ago

I'd say that they already do. Most data is kept on device and whatever is sent to the cloud is end-to-end encrypted.

mike-cardwell• 9 years ago

If you want a phone that respects your privacy, take a look at https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/

scarlac6• 9 years ago

Fellow Scandinavian here. Apple has talked a lot about privacy and security in last couple of years, both on stage and off stage. I'd even go as far ans say it's probably one of the topics they've been most vocal about off-stage.

What's your specific privacy concern in relation to the presentation given?

mortenjorck2• 9 years ago

I can understand the compromise of the "notch" for the sensor bar in portrait-oriented UIs. Some thoughtful juggling of the status bar, some added interaction, and you're all set. A reasonable trade-off.

What I cannot understand at all is the compromise in landscape mode, for games and video. Rather than just black out the uneven area and limit the drawable area to the largest unbroken rectangle, everything Apple shows appears partially obscured by the notch. The AR game example literally has the notch starting to eat into the UI. In my book, this leaps from "acceptable trade-off" to "bizarre sacrifice." It's like living with a cracked corner of the screen, right out of the box.

mesozoic• 9 years ago

Probably that's marketing I would expect game developers to rationally use the unobscured portion

mypalmike2• 9 years ago

But they will use the obscured portion irrationally.

jmull• 9 years ago

I think it's good to leave that up to the app developer. They can choose to use the space around the notch or crop it.

dperfect• 9 years ago

It's not as significant as the notch, but the corners of the display area are also rounded off, so the screen has some fairly interesting effective geometry in terms of viewable pixels.

I wonder if the graphics and UI SDKs will have built-in functions to determine where these boundaries are (as they're likely to change in future models), or if developers will just be expected to work around them as best they can.

dlubarov2• 9 years ago

I imagine most developers won't want to design a tweaked layout specifically for the iPhone X. As a compromise, developers will probably just avoid putting important UI elements near the horizontal edges, similar to what console developers used to do to accommodate older TVs [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_area_(television)

dweekly2• 9 years ago

Apple is asking devs not to crop it.

"Don't mask or call special attention to key display features. Don't attempt to hide the device's rounded corners, sensor housing, or indicator for accessing the Home screen by placing black bars at the top and bottom of the screen. Don't use visual adornments like brackets, bezels, shapes, or instructional text to call special attention to these areas either."

https://developer.apple.com/ios/human-interface-guidelines/o...

lathiat7• 9 years ago

I had a similar though about video playback shown. Given it's OLED it seems like leaving it black should work OK in landscape

lathiat7• 9 years ago

Here we go...

"Placing black bars makes your app feel cramped"

Screenshot from Apple design video: https://twitter.com/SteveMoser/status/907686208154816515

joselreyes• 9 years ago

Any reasonable developer will likely just use the safe area (which excludes the notch) to display video, photos or games.

btown• 9 years ago

Is Apple a reasonable developer for the built-in media apps and Safari full screen video?

saagarjha20• 9 years ago

Apple specifically says not to do this in their updated Human Interface Guidelines.

emersonrsantos• 9 years ago

Good luck getting your app rejected.

walru• 9 years ago

Which begs the question:

Would Jobs have delivered this?

note: I personally say no. The form factor is, with all it's curves, a failure for creating UI/UX that feels complete. It's going to force more people to go Android first with their software development. When Android starts getting newer and better software more frequently the sea change will continue to widen and even long lasting fans will want to try something else.

saagarjha20• 9 years ago

It only begs the question because you decided to bring it up.

qq665• 9 years ago

Probably not, but trying to run the company by the philosophy of "Would Jobs have done this" is impossible, since if emulating Steve Jobs' brain was possible, he wouldn't have been a unique talent.

sneak3• 9 years ago

https://begthequestion.info

itsdrewmiller• 9 years ago

People go iOS first because iOS has a much better market for paid apps - if Objective C wasn't enough to discourage this approach, I doubt a notch in the UI will be.

hellofunk6• 9 years ago

It's going to force more people to go Android first with their software development.

I don't understand this comment. What do "all its curves", as you say, have to do with iOS developers suddenly preferring Android? The iOS App Store has approximately a 7x revenue potential vs. Android's store, why would a developer abandon that just because of a new phone's form factor? There have been many new form factors in iOS devices over the last years, and that hasn't swayed anyone.

nsnick2• 9 years ago

I don't think "beg the question" means what you think it means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Here is another explanation http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/begs-the-...

Osmium4• 9 years ago

I can understand the compromise of the "notch" for the sensor bar in portrait-oriented UIs.

Me too. Still, it'll be nice if there's an option to disable the notch and just use a slightly shorter display. There are no doubt Apple engineers out there who want this, so I hope it's a hidden accessibility setting :)

reaperducer2• 9 years ago

Maybe that's where you're supposed to put your thumb.

I already find watching video on a phone annoying because my fingers get in the way. I'd think it would be worse on this device.

jclardy• 9 years ago

I agree, when they first demoed it I was pretty shocked. For games, I can kind of understand, they can likely work around it...but for video? No videos are recorded with the thought of the left side of the screen being cut off.

ovao3• 9 years ago

Not necessarily true. There's still quite large amount of video (or film) content adapted from wider aspect ratios that has been thoughtfully framed with the expectation that it will eventually be squeezed into a consumer device-friendly 16:9 aspect ratio.

I don't expect the area encompassed by the notch to be meaningful to a lot of video content (possibly most). I think there are scenarios where it would be a minor problem, though.

cbhl3• 9 years ago

Pretty much all professionally recorded content pays attention to safe zones, and has done so since the CRT days: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_area_(television)

Phones historically have been weird for not cutting off part of the image that CRTs and even flat screen TVs have been known to do.

boondaburrah3• 9 years ago

Honestly the video producers are already used to this bullshit, and have recorded expecting it already. Why? Tube TV. Just when I thought we were going to be able to kiss overscan-safe area goodbye (I mean it's 2017 come /on/), we now have to keep it. Maybe it'll be called "funky phone safe area" now.

chuckdries2• 9 years ago

I've also heard the screen itself is slightly wider than 16:9, though in which direction I don't know. Hopefully, wide enough for native 16:9 to naturally black bar the notch

twiceaday• 9 years ago

This phone has a 19.5:9 screen so 16:9 videos will have vertical black bars on either side that are thick enough to envelop the notch. You can see that in this [1] hands-on video.

[1] https://youtu.be/OzTLlolkXxU?t=4m22s

Yizahi• 9 years ago

Let me guess - it uses 19.5:9 because 18.5:9 and 18:9 were taken already and Apple can't really use a "used" concept? :)

odammit8• 9 years ago

When I saw them rotate and play the video I exclaimed "what in the unholy f_ck" and an entire Starbucks looked at me like I am the crazy one.

Thats one of the most awkward things Ive seen on an tech gadget that wasn't made by Doc Johnson.

nannal• 9 years ago

you're shouting "what the holy fuck" in a starbucks becauseIOS didn't black out the screen near the notch.

You earned those looks.

rpowers3• 9 years ago

That's a bizarre reaction to a little black bar. 'Meh' or 'Bleh' seem more appropriate.

pocketsquare2• 9 years ago

sounds like you experienced a 0th world problem

Reason0772• 9 years ago

The notch doesn't bother me that much. If anything, it adds character in a world where phone designs are getting more generic and less distinguishable.

The lack of a headphone jack (and no valid replacement, such as USB-C) gets me way more annoyed!

ignu• 9 years ago

Wireless headphones are the future.

Weird annoying notches in your screen better not be the future.

notheguyouthink5• 9 years ago

Agreed, I like the notch. Mind you, I don't even own an iPhone, but I also like the Essential (Android Phone) notch. The Android phone's notch was less wide, sure, but I'm not sure it matters.

By all means, if you're displaying UI stuff there then great, don't obscure your buttons with the notch. However I love seeing images/etc with all possible screen visible. I've been wanting a head/chin-less phone for years now.

From the looks of it, I love both of them. The Android and iPhone version.

kllrnohj• 9 years ago

For all the things Essential Phone didn't do well, it actually did do this part correctly and letterboxed videos & games to avoid the camera cutting into the content.

gumby4• 9 years ago

What I cannot understand at all is the compromise in landscape mode, for games and video.

I find that an odd glass-half-empty view. Since the screen has more pixels than earlier phones, instead of worrying about some being "taken away" by the notch, consider it as Apple adding some space for status info and the like to dead space that was previously bezel.

BinaryIdiot5• 9 years ago

instead of worrying about some being "taken away" by the notch, consider it as Apple adding some space for status info and the like to dead space that was previously bezel.

But my bezel didn't literally cover parts of videos or fullscreen app UIs.

I don't really get your point. Sure, overall you get more pixels but the screen still gets covered partially and you're not allowed to fill in the left and right of it with a black bar to make your content look not overlapped.

achairapart• 9 years ago

The problem is not the notch but the rounded corners.

I think they wanted to show how "cool" is the whole edge-to-edge screen with all the four rounded borders. If you black out the notch and keep that side square, then you must do the same on the other side and the screen will just look like the old rectangular display.

While I'm sure there will be some option to do this, at least for video, for me, a square shaped phone would have made sense.

liberte822• 9 years ago

Oh man that notch bothers me. I suppose maybe I'll get used to it, but is making such a drastic design decision really worth the extra few millimetres of pixels on each side of it? It just bothers me aesthetically looking at images of it.

sogen• 9 years ago

Laziness

geodel2• 9 years ago

Well I think the notch at top of iPhone X is to make it a top notch phone.

King-Aaron• 9 years ago

Collect your last cheque from the front desk and get out

danielharrison2• 9 years ago

*sighs, looks down, shakes head

npgatech• 9 years ago

Thanks for the laugh. That said, I am concerned that HN is becoming more and more like reddit. No offense, but the reason I come to HN is for serious informative discussion, not puns and jokes. I realize this is an asshole thing to say but I just had to let this out.

pen2l3• 9 years ago

Did anyone else notice the false/misleading images in their promotional media?

https://images.apple.com/media/us/iphone-x/2017/01df5b43-28e...

There is no camera bulge there... they just deleted it. This is not something I expect from Apple.

matt40773• 9 years ago

The camera is on the far (under)side of the phone, which isn't even shown in this clip.

stouset• 9 years ago

I think we can chalk up this sort of thing happening once in, what, a decade(?) to an honest mistake.

microcolonel• 9 years ago

I hope other manufacturers pick up on this and just make their devices thick enough overall to match the camera bulge, with a huge bonus in battery capacity.

aphextron3• 9 years ago

There is no camera bulge there... they just deleted it. This is not something I expect from Apple.

I would expect it from Apple these days. That bulge is the number one reason I will never buy a 7/8/X. Steve Jobs must have been rolling in his grave when they first showed that off.

flipgimble• 9 years ago

This is something that can be largely fixed by the software, but it requires 3rd part developer coordination, that honestly only Apple can pull off. In iOS11 there is a concept of a safe area that UI should respect. With constraint based layout you can have a single layout that moved critical UI components outside of the notch area if its present.

The problem is that the AR game was most likely built with Unity, which has its own 4-5 different UI systems, and my guess none of them are aware of a safe area.

The problem is fixable, but why did Apple allow demo that was not polished enough to work well with their flagship phone?

Multicomp• 9 years ago

I can't wait to see the Youtube videos of people 'taking a selfie' just to unlock their iPhones

pow_pp_-1_v• 9 years ago

Being that it is the 10th anniversary, I was hoping they will come out with something ground-breaking. iPhone X seems like a good phone. But it's just a better iPhone 7.

SadWebDeveloper4• 9 years ago

Face ID bypass will sure be available Nov 4-5

Also wonder if this "security feature" is NSA-approved, m pretty sure it is.

Viper007Bond• 9 years ago

Bummer about the size. The Plus is a monster to me and I prefer the pocket-happy size of my regular 6.

TekMol3• 9 years ago

Both the 8 and the X have the pressure sensitivity "3D Touch". Is that actually useful? To the HN users with iPhones: Do you use it?

scarlac6• 9 years ago

Yes, I use it all the time. Mainly app-switching and text navigation (3d-touch/force-press on keyboard to enable floating cursor mode).

It initially came off as a gimmicky way of 'right clicking' but has evolved into more than that. Software has also been refined since first release.

suchanl• 9 years ago

Having used an iPhone with pressure sensitive screen the past year, it remains unused for me, partly because the gesture feels unnatural and partly since most apps don't support it, I dont expect it to do anything.

jitl• 9 years ago

3D Touch (before called Force Touch) has been in Apple products since 2014. I use it all the time on iPhone 7S, it's a regular part of interacting with the operating system:

- force touch an image to view fullscreen

- force touch app icons to open a quick menu

- force touch buttons in Control Center to open a menu

It's like a quicker touch-and-hold action in other operating systems, although sometimes there's also a touch-and-hold action in iOS which can be annoying.

limeblack3• 9 years ago

Features I'm curious how they work on the new iPhone.

1) Touch status bar to scroll to the top of the page(my favorite iPhone feature).

2) Locking the screen. I'm assuming the double tap and Siri don't interfere with this.

dannyw2• 9 years ago

Tap on the time, and press the home button?

wrboyce7• 9 years ago

To add to this, the "reachability" feature where I double-touch the home button to bring the top half of the screen into reach.

tinhangliu• 9 years ago

Am I the only person not excited about the iPhone since the release of the 4s?

randomfinn• 9 years ago

Considering their market share, a lot of people have never been excited about them.

I think the iPhone excitement is mostly a US thing. For a lot of people here, it was the first smartphone they saw - or even their first mobile device.

It's hard to get excited about iPhones when you're used to more modern technology.

traviswingo• 9 years ago

Off topic. I posted this same link right when the page was live and it got flagged. This seems to be the only iPhone X link on HN now, but was posted 20 mins after mine. What caused mine to be flagged? Not mad, just curious :)

simantel• 9 years ago

The TechCrunch/Verge links were on the home page already, so it seems they decided to consolidate into one thread and change the link to the product page.

lightedman3• 9 years ago

Goodbye privacy? A phone that can be unlocked with your face = easy enough for cops to snoop on you. No need for a password, just taking your phone and pointing it at your face unlocks it.

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

Or just pointing your finger at the sensor unlocks it. Same difference.

Or you can use the "panic" mode on iOS11 and force it to ask for a passcode.

lightedman3• 9 years ago

Most regular users of iOS products know very little about these kinds of features, they just enable these things without thinking, then I have to explain why its bad. I have this exact kind of talk every other day on a regular basis.

krishicks• 9 years ago

Has anyone seen anything about how to get it not to unlock automatically with your face when you look at it?

I have bus times on my lock screen, one swipe to the left away. That seems to become obsolete if the phone automatically unlocks when I look at it.

Additionally, swiping up from the bottom is the single least effective swipe for me. Pulling up Control Center fails for me more often than not, with the little "looking for me?" rectangular handle popping up on the bottom, and still it doesn't work well.

I wonder also what this means for screenshots; with no Home Button to push along with the power button, what do you do? And what do those screenshots even look like, given the ears at the top of the display?

DennisAleynikov• 9 years ago

It actually only unlocks but does not go home until you do the new home button gesture which is swiping from the bottom. Nothing to be worried about

partiallypro• 9 years ago

It, like Windows Hello, doesn't "unlock" until you swipe up. You can still do things from the lock screen without unlocking it.

boobsbr2• 9 years ago

Seems like all these features were previously available on Android phone for (quite) some time:

- "bezel-less" display

- wireless charging

- no hardware buttons on the front

- facial recognition

- dual cameras

Not to downplay the quality engineering of Apple, but this seems like a big "meh..." to me. A lot of hype for stuff that is commonplace.

masklinn• 9 years ago

I… don't disagree with the "meh" though software buttons and no buttons on the face are pretty different results. And dual camera was added on the 7+ last year (though it was hardly a first back then, IIRC LG and Huawei had dual-camera models in early '16).

boobsbr2• 9 years ago

Wasn't there a phone with dual cameras for capturing stereographic pictures?

riazrizvi• 9 years ago

It would be awesome if they could use the facial recognition feature to eliminate the problem with spurious landscape/portrait mode switches when you are lying in bed, reading the phone at an angle.

amluto• 9 years ago

The dimensions seem much more focused on aesthetics than functionality to me. Being mostly thin doesn't seem to buy much when the camera sticks out. Why not make it uniformly thick and increase the battery capacity?

For those of us who enjoy one handed use, the SE still seems unmatched.

patzol2• 9 years ago

Although iPhone X is a beautiful device and depth camera will have many innovative applications, I'm so disappointed with iPhone 8(plus). There is barely any difference with iPhone 7(plus). As for wireless charging - seems like charging pad will be available only next year and you will have to spend extra money. Considering rumored problems with iPhone X production and starting shipping it beginning november I would expect their year to year sales go down.

syntaxing• 9 years ago

I'm pretty curious about the new AI chip that Apple might put in their phone. If the integration with Core ML works well, it might lead to a series of new interesting apps.

myrandomcomment• 9 years ago

Meh. I still have a 6P. I will pick up used 7 now (as there is always a ton for sale after a new iPhone) so I can use the NFC for the Tokyo subway. The face thing to unlock to pay is a non-starter for me.

wiz21c• 9 years ago

>> Reveal your inner panda, pig, or robot.

Ok, I stopped there. Now let's talk about the sociological impact of Apple.

floatboth• 9 years ago

"The Waldo Moment" (Black Mirror) comes to mind.

Also speaking of Black Mirror, the first episode specifically, and the real world news story that reminded everyone of that episode… I'm sure David Cameron would love to unleash his inner pig :D

mrfusion2• 9 years ago

How do you check notifications with your face? Or switch songs while jogging? Seems like it would unlock as soon as you look at it?

theshrike7929• 9 years ago

Just like with TouchID, it _unlocks_, but actually going to the home screen requires a press of the button.

ppeetteerr• 9 years ago

You can lift it or tap the screen to show the locked screen. Your face will only unlock the device, it will not bring up the home screen.

callesgg• 9 years ago

That is some extraordinary marketing.

I just want it. But i know i have absolutely no need for it.

nickpp• 9 years ago

Is it Pentile?!

AndrewKemendo7• 9 years ago

I really wanted to see this turn the iPhone X into the primary computer for all things - replace the MBP and the iPad line. Dock to screen/keyboard etc... so that everything is just running off of the phone.

That would be a perfect jump off point to AR glasses with the phone as the computing engine in 2020.

It would let Apple re-focus, kill a bunch of product lines and swallow the market with a singular device + robust peripheral market.

mrfusion2• 9 years ago

If it's using steel does that mean it will be magnetnetic?

That would be neat to attach it to my wall. And it would open up a lot of options for car holders.

komali27• 9 years ago

I grew up in a time when "Magnets + Screens = NO! BAD!" Is this not the case anymore? Like, I get freaked out when my girlfriend attaches her magnetized Surface Pro pen to her SP4. Even the macbook magnetized chargers freak me out. Is this just poorly learned behavior that's no longer relevant?

tgb• 9 years ago

Only if they wanted it to be: stainless steel is not significantly ferromagnetic. My guess is they don't want it to be magnetic but I can't think of a good reason other than "that's not what phones are like".

chorsestudios2• 9 years ago

I am surprised they didn't change the included lighting <-> USB cable to USB C. Out of the box still incompatible with the MacBook Pro, and forced to use dongles/adapters.

sneak3• 9 years ago

Why do you ever need to plug your iPhone into your mac?

chorsestudios2• 9 years ago

To program iPhone apps. AFAIK, Until the recent Xcode beta you couldn't push code wirelessly to your iPhone, and even now the feature in the Xcode beta is pretty slow. Also I enjoy charging my iPhone with my macs. For a company that takes pride in seamless connectivity within their ecosystem I find it surprising that you cannot buy an iPhone + MacBook Pro and connect them without adapters.

jgeerts• 9 years ago

Take a backup or charge it for example.

ianburrell2• 9 years ago

I am surprised that they still only include a 5W charger. Especially when they advertise fast charging with the 29W charger. Would have been good time to include 15W USB-C charger and USB-C to Lightning cable.

B1FF_PSUVM• 9 years ago

I'm still sorry for the things we'll be missing with the loss of Metro Design, now lying in its deathbed in Windows 10 Mobile.

Wish Apple had the balls to just plain steal it, the iPhone home screen nowadays seems from last century.

trhway• 9 years ago

I think Jobs would be throwing it into aquarium until the black notch bar is removed. After looking at those photos the notch is pain in the eyes and pure abomination.

gigatexal• 9 years ago

what a whole lot of meh regarding the Iphone X. The watch series 3 though, that I am getting.

leeoniya• 9 years ago

Your face is now your password

no, it isnt. and neither are your fingerprints. none of this publicly available data is a password.

a password is something i can change if it gets compromised. a password is secure from others.

biometric data is a username/id.

why do companies insist on getting this shit backwards?

pwython• 9 years ago

"My v̶o̶i̶c̶e̶ face is my passport. Verify me."

'Sneakers' had it right. Consider it more of a "passport."

sjwright4• 9 years ago

biometric data is a username/id.

Which is why it's called "Touch ID" and "Face ID".

eCa2• 9 years ago

Your face is now your password.

That's a direct quote from the product page.

jasonkostempski• 9 years ago

Yet they behave like a password.

haswell• 9 years ago

It's important to note that in the context of these Apple features, "ID" is for "Identification", not some kind of "User ID" used as a Username.

Username != ID.

eCa2• 9 years ago

Agreed completely. I hope I'm never in a situation where I'm forced to use my face or fingers as a password.

nilkn• 9 years ago

Their job is to sell. They want everyone watching to understand exactly what they mean.

For what it's worth, I would say that Face ID isn't quite a username either. Once known, anyone can reproduce a username. I can't easily recreate your face even if I know you well. That would require an extra set of skills/equipment. The same argument goes for Touch ID.

Spooky23• 9 years ago

It isn't a username or password, it's another factor, similar to how we identify people that we know.

It's not perfect, which is why we have policies for accessing things. It's almost certainly a better security mechanism than a password.

audunw• 9 years ago

biometric data is a username/id.
why do companies insist on getting this shit backwards?

They don't have it backwards, but they're also simplifying when they say it's your password. In the presentation they actually say specifically that there's a chance that someone else can unlock your phone (1 in 50'000 for fingerprint, and supposedly 1 in 1'000'000 for Face ID, given that you don't have a twin).

Reality is that it's somewhere in between. A fingerprint sensor or face reader will keep casual snoopers - and most people who find your phone on the street - out. That's all that matters for most people. It's not a username. It's at least moderately hard for someone to duplicate, and it's not something you'd actively share with someone. It's not as safe as a password, but Apple isn't trying to claim that either.

I think it's a good idea to avoid false dichotomy here. Biometrics is biometrics. It should be treated as distinct from passwords or usernames.

tentaTherapist• 9 years ago

Okay, but shouldn't developers make security easy? This makes introducing a sizable hole into existing security easy, which is the opposite of what you'd want.

aquadrop• 9 years ago

Yes, touchId/faceId sits in between, it's quick access token, which is enough for 95% of the time, but those other 5% are very important.

a_t482• 9 years ago

1 in 1 000 000 is the same odds as a 6 digit PIN (though you can always change a PIN). That's acceptable to me.

ballenf2• 9 years ago

Watching someone key in a PIN and recording it, then swiping the phone is easier than building a 3D printed color model of someone's face. Not to mention that having the biometric unlock sitting on top of a PIN means that there are many fewer chances for the PIN to be observed.

Whether biometric access is a password or username is trying to force the wrong paradigm. Going back to first concepts, we had keys and we tried to make them hard to copy but not too inconvenient. The face is the key. No, there's no practical way to re-key this lock, but it's still a lock and key. But the door also has a deadbolt (PIN code) which has to be disengaged for the "face key" to function.

The username concept applies when you have multiple people using the same resource (and don't want to know or reveal whether any 2 people use the same password) -- which again doesn't apply to a single-user device.

Finally, all this combined with the quick "hard lock" of the device (5 taps of power button) gives me the impression of a very thorough approach to security.

mtgx3• 9 years ago

The FAR rate is quite misleading especially for facial recognition. FAR counts on the data being "random" for that 1:50,000 or 1:1 million to be true. But you can bet whoever is targeting you will build a 3D profile of your face out of all the pictures it can find on you online. I at least assume it won't be "easy" from the get go to bypass Apple's face unlock tech, like it was for the Galaxy S8 with a god damn 2D picture that we've been known for a decade that's an effective attack, but I also don't think it's impossible. Machine learning techniques will become advanced enough in a few years to build someone's 3D profile like that.

Plus, as the parent said on the issue of not being able to replace your face as you can your password, they can still target your face data stored on the phone.

electrograv• 9 years ago

It's not a password, but it's not a username either. It's something in between: It's vastly easier for me to type your username in the login box than it is for me to create a sophisticated prosthetic or high resolution 3D scan (with correct infrared coloration) of your face.

mikeash6• 9 years ago

I wish people would stop repeating the canard that biometrics are usernames, not passwords. Biometrics are biometrics. They are different from both usernames and passwords. They have their own advantages and limitations. Learn them, understand them, and use them or not based on what they are, not some other thing they sort of seem like.

threeseed4• 9 years ago

Prosthetics were specifically covered in the keynote.

The neural networks have been trained to recognise them as fake faces.

amaks• 9 years ago

Not entirely true. Your email is your password. If you own email and access to it, you can reset and request new password.

lathiat7• 9 years ago

Something that I think people underestimate is just how easy it is to observe you entering your password on a phone, and why that (in my opinion) makes thumbprints much more secure than passwords for casual usage - e.g. every-time you unlock your phone.

All you need is a camera over your shoulder and you don't even need to observe the key-presses as generally the current character is displayed on screen. You could likely observe 100s or 1000s of them a day with an overhead camera at transit stations and the like.

The same thing goes for "Tap And Go" contact less payments not requiring a PIN number under $100.

Everyone goes on about how people can run up a few hundred dollars at different stores with your card if they steal it. But consider exposing your pin to surveillance during most common transactions which then also lets you remove cash from an ATM with that card if stolen which is much harder to recover and is also much higher value than the generally $30-$100 limit for transactions without a PIN.

Next minute you'll freak out when I tell you I can clone your house key from a photo of it hanging off your belt...

The general point is that security trade-offs are generally deeper than you might realise on the surface, especially at "public outrage" levels of observation which so frequently haunt the public mind in recent times.

riphay• 9 years ago

This is a great point, and why I'd like to see more features being locked without a passcode. The move in iOS 11 to restrict device imaging without a passcode is a great step in this direction.

Perhaps we can see more customization as to what biometrics unlock and what they don't?

aidenn02• 9 years ago

The other thing is that I kept my phone unlocked in the time after physical keyboards were dead but before fingerprints. There are way to many situations where I want to unlock my phone with one-hand.

A fingerprint lock is way more secure than no lock.

rodorgas3• 9 years ago

On ATMs they use a keyboard with random multiple digits per key, e.g. "2 or 7", "8 or 0", etc. That's a defense to the "observing-attack", but it's slow and boring. Also, someone could unlock with other password.

cheald• 9 years ago

Just remember to change your face regularly, and use a face manager so that you don't ever use the same face twice.

PopsiclePete• 9 years ago

It's easy, find a local biker bar and put your hand in a familiar manner on one of the biker's girlfriend's behind.

Deestan• 9 years ago

I'm sorry, but we can't hire you for security reasons. You look too similar to our head of IT.

unethical_ban• 9 years ago

Biometric data is authentication. One looks at their mother and says "hi mom" not "what's the passcode?". Your issue, I think, is that you don't trust the tools on the phone to read faces or fingerprints well enough to detect fraudulent login attempts.

Factors of authentication:

* What you know - things like passwords online that other people shouldn't know

* What you have - Two-factor tokens, certs (kind of "know" but used to supplement "have") that other people shouldn't have

* What you are - Biometrics like finger, face, or eye that are unique and difficult to duplicate or trick (ideally)

So the question becomes which and how many factors to require, and when, depending on the risk model.

ramy_d• 9 years ago

What kind of analogy is that? I don't know what you were trying to say but you're way off on saying it. I think OP's point stands, biometrics: are not be relied upon for these matters.

bo1024• 9 years ago

Your issue, I think, is that you don't trust the tools on the phone to read faces or fingerprints

And/or, you don't want to give Apple your facial or fingerprint information.

twblalock2• 9 years ago

Apple is speaking to a broad consumer audience, not just technical people. "Password" is a reasonable concept that will be easily understood by a lot of people. "Biometrics" is not.

codezero3• 9 years ago

I agree and I think most of the comments here cover why this should mostly be OK.

Another neat feature in iOS 11 is the ability to disable Touch ID quickly, but touching the lock button five times. I assume this works for Face ID as well – this would help those who have immediate concerns that they would be coerced into using biometric data to unlock their device.

edit: updated to five touches

dkonofalski7• 9 years ago

Small nitpick, but it's 5 taps to disable Touch ID and Face ID.

leyth• 9 years ago

You've made an excellent point here.

TCM• 9 years ago

Because people are lazy to remember passwords and or setting pin numbers on their phones.

FaceID and TouchID are compromises for an actual password or pin. Also, setting these things up force you to set a 8 digit pin.

mort964• 9 years ago

Definitely this. When I was using an iPhone, it was for all intents and purposes locked behind my thumbprint (even though you could theoretically make a model thumb with my fingerprint and unlock it, it protects from everything other than highly skilled criminals/governments who very specifically target me). Now that I have a Galaxy S5, there's no way I'm writing in a passcode every time I unlock it (and that horrible "fingerprint scanner" is not a replacement for Touch ID), so it's just unlocked.

Clubber• 9 years ago

biometric data is a username/id.

It's authentication. When it unlocks, it's authorization.

zaroth16• 9 years ago

Who you are (authentication) and what you can do (authorization). But for iPhone they are effectively one and the same since there's only one account on the phone. You can only authenticate as the phone's primary user, after which point you have full authority.

When, Oh When!, will my kids get their own home screen and separate sandbox, limits, etc. when I hand them my phone?!

curun1r2• 9 years ago

Your both right and both wrong. Biometric authentication is an identity scheme. The combination of username and password is also an identity scheme. A certificate chain is another identity scheme.

Identities both identify who you are and are, ideally, difficult to fake. Username password artificially handled those two concerns separately, but that doesn't mean that all identity schemes must do so. For them to say it's your password is wrong, but for you to say it's your username is also wrong. It can be thought of as both or neither but it isn't either one on its own.

Geee• 9 years ago

In a perfect world, we wouldn't actually need passwords. If a machine can reliably tell that you are really you, then what's the point of passwords?

That actually works very well between humans; we let friends in our house without asking for passwords. Machines still have a bit of catching up to do, but Face ID is a step in the right direction.

oatmealsnap• 9 years ago

Because it is safe enough for most people to keep their friends out of their phones, and faster+easier to use than typing in a passphrase.

It is also safer than not using a password, which I'm sure some people still do.

wentoodeep• 9 years ago

I agree, what about identical twins or a doppleganger?

_asummers• 9 years ago

I consider biometric data a keepalive, nothing more. Any biometric system that doesn't require a non biometric pass at some point after boot before the biometric becomes a means of device authentication is broken, to me.

MBCook27• 9 years ago

In iOS you have to provide the passcode to change any settings related to payments and security (among other things.)

Anytime you go 24 hours without unlocking your phone you are also required to give the passcode.

tootie• 9 years ago

I had face unlock maybe 2 Androids ago and it was disallowed by corporate IT policy. PINs only or you couldn't get company email.

briandear5• 9 years ago

Because you could unlock Androids with a photo — even a low resolution Facebook photo. A 3D scan of your face is a bit beyond the Android scheme.

hota_mazi2• 9 years ago

Equifax has taught us that you'll be perfectly safe if you regularly change your address, date of birth and SSN.

Apple is just following suit with the trend.

toephu23• 9 years ago

Wow you sound like a real joy to work with. I don't think you've learned to step out of the shoes of an engineer and put yourself in the shoes of an average consumer or the company selling a new phone. The average consumer does not give a shit about the technical definition of a password.

yladiz5• 9 years ago

Is your face scan really publicly available?

marcomonteiro• 9 years ago

Isn't it though? It's the "password" to the secure enclave which then provides a "password" to the OS.

Edit: I agree with your statement that "a password is something i can change if it gets compromised. a password is secure from others." Which is why I like that there is a method for disabling TouchID/FaceID with iOS 11.

pilom• 9 years ago

I'm bothered by the move to TouchID and now FaceID from a "the government can make you unlock your phone" standpoint. Legally, the precedent is that the government can force you to use "something you are" like your face or fingerprint to unlock your phone. Currently there is at least some ambiguity to the precedents that say they can't require you to unlock your phone with "something you know" like a pin or password because of that could be construed as self-incrimination and forbidden by the bill of rights.

If you're worried about law enforcement requiring you to unlock your phone DO NOT USE TOUCHID OR FACEID.

Y7ZCQtNo39• 9 years ago

I'm pretty sure turning the device off and on requires a passcode.

mixmastamyk5• 9 years ago

Not always possible if law enforcement is breathing down your neck.

jetpks• 9 years ago

Yeah, this feature was accidentally shown in the keynote.

dfischer• 9 years ago

I thought they added a feature just for this. You can press the power button 5 times to force it to require a passcode.

51Cards2• 9 years ago

Doesn't work if they are holding your device and they point it at your face to unlock it.

veeragoni• 9 years ago

The phone is definitely 2017. But I would like to condemn those who say its futuristic. Whats so futuristic about it?! is it foldable? Is it wearable? Does it generate holographic images, Does it at least project to wall for larger display? Does the battery lasts a week? They could have placed a touchID on the back(well, may be next iPhone). You might say, I am asking way too much in 2017. Yes I am! Thats why its not futuristic.

mrsmee89• 9 years ago

Perhaps the UX needs to be felt in person but it feels like a way worse UX than before. It seems Apple is losing sight of the question which IMO should define the choices we make when it comes to technology. Does it make peoples lives better? I don't see how this phone does. It feels like apple made something for the purpose of making people want it. It's un-apple like.

pi-rat3• 9 years ago

So, how do you snap a screenshot without the home button?

Tempest19813• 9 years ago

https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/298203/how-to-take...

hysan• 9 years ago

So a lot of times I show my phone to my friends when they ask about the time or if I get a quick message I want to show them on the notifications screen. With Face ID, would this trigger a wrong face recognition? If so, I can see this potentially locking me out as I rarely use my phone when I'm out with groups of people. Touch ID worked a lot better in terms of fine grain control, so this move to Face ID makes me wonder how many different edge cases were considered in this design decision.

hatcherdogg• 9 years ago

Great concept. I'll take the revised XS later, and an 8 now.

oliv__• 9 years ago

So with FaceId being able to unlock my phone at any time, does that mean it will be filming everything, all the time, waiting to detect a face?

brailsafe2• 9 years ago

Anyone else experience major issues with the website? It's inscrutable to me with the scroll based parallax nonsense breaking horribly.

kristjankalm• 9 years ago

The most powerful and smartest chip ever in a smartphone, with a neural engine that’s capable of up to 600 billion operations per second.

sorry but "neural engine" is just too funny. i mean there's normal levels of bullshit bingo and then there's branding your chip "neural engine".

drcongo• 9 years ago

Can we call that notch what it is please, a monobrow.

jasonjayr• 9 years ago

In the disclaimer:

iPhone X is splash, water, and dust resistant and was tested under controlled laboratory conditions with a rating of IP67 under IEC standard 60529. Splash, water, and dust resistance are not permanent conditions and resistance might decrease as a result of normal wear. Do not attempt to charge a wet iPhone; refer to the user guide for cleaning and drying instructions. Liquid damage not covered under warranty.

I wish they had enough confidence in their water resistance that they would cover water damage to some degree in the warranty ...

wffurr• 9 years ago

Seems crazy that they have no less than eight models of iPhone available at once: https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/

Why are the 6S and 6S Plus still there? Why no love for the iPhone SE? It's now two entire generations of processor behind.

LeicaLatte2• 9 years ago

The only way to stop someone from unlocking your device by just pointing it at your face is to close your eyes. Dealbreaker.

oregondan• 9 years ago

That's funny, Apple pulled a Microsoft and skipped 9 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

blaincate• 9 years ago

Just Realized : Face recognition unlock : Biggest Security Scare

- Case 1 : Imagine crossing security check or border crossing. Guards just take your phone and point it to you : UNLOCKED . No need to resis to give passwd

- Case 2 : drug the activist and point unconscious victim ! Voila !

- Case 3 : Steal the phone, and change the cover and flash it in front of the real owner !

could go on and on ...

kevinchen• 9 years ago

All these problems exist with fingerprints too. At least Face ID requires you to look at the phone before it unlocks.

masterleep• 9 years ago

I'd pay $200 to get rid of the haptic home button. Always hated the feel of that thing.

LeicaLatte2• 9 years ago

Expecting the iPhone X to be delayed beyond November. The phone isn't cooked enough yet and I think they have announced it prematurely.

Mikho• 9 years ago

The notch is really not that good UX. All that elaborations and tricks to show it or hide, to fit in there notifications. If you go bezel-less, one of the best options now is Xiaomi Mi Mix 2. There are already reviews on YouTube. I'd say it is the best configuration yet for that type of a phone. Also, it's worth to consider that it is already the second iteration after the first Mi Mix.

http://www.mi.com/mix2/

Exuma• 9 years ago

What do you do if you want to go to a costume party? Lol

thomastjeffery• 9 years ago

So a neutered 2K screen, and an x% faster APU...

How is this worth over $999?

Illniyar• 9 years ago

I know that a ton of people swear by the iPhone, and it will probably be a hit no matter what, but every new one that comes up all I can think of is how much good UX they sacrificed for the shake of having a better looking product.

One button without an always on back button was already a turnoff for me, but no button at all? at least android has swipe from the bottom.

FaceID instead of TouchId will remove a lot of use cases people got used to - no longer answering texts in meetings anyone?

gallerdude• 9 years ago

You can just type in your passcode, no?

johnward• 9 years ago

As an Android user I'm still kind of interested in this phone. One thing that bothers me on most phones is the camera sticking out the back. It ends up being the point of contact to every surface you sit it on and sometimes the camera glass breaks.

mrmondo• 9 years ago

I very much appreciate the OLED high contrast, wide colour display.

I have yet not watched the release and read the technical details but I am more than slightly concerned about “Your face becomes your password”, while it’s obviously optional so security conscious people by no means have to use it, I’m not confident that it’s a sensible idea to promote the widespread use of what is known not to be a secure, private piece of information that you can change or choose not to use.

However, in my opinion Apple is by far one of, it not the most security conscious large corporate manufacturer of hardware and software and generally tries to know as little about your personal data and promote encryption (FileVault, forced phone encryption etc) as much as possible while maintaining practical use for general public. So I am very interested to see what makes this so different from Samsung/Google’s failed and easily bypassed face unlocking they were very vocal about but ultimately was an embarrassing security and PR failure.

amelius4• 9 years ago

Our vision has always been to create an iPhone that is entirely screen. (...) Say hello to the future.

Haven't we seen such phones from other companies already a thousand times over?

VeejayRampay• 9 years ago

I don't understand why the website keeps repeating "it's all screen" even though the phone is not all screen. I own a entry-level Motorola G5S, never owned a Samsung before so not fanboying here, but their phones strike me more as "all screen" than this iPhone X. Am I missing something?

perseusprime113• 9 years ago

They should rename this to iPhone N (N for Notch).

rpowers3• 9 years ago

So many people pre-complaining about some actually neat stuff. The screen looks fine, stoked about the HDR10. Portraits will looks really nice. Wireless charging is a big plus. I think this will be a great phone.

amelius4• 9 years ago

It seems the camera sticks out at the back. This would mean it's not possible to put the phone stably on a flat surface. Is this true?

jimbert• 9 years ago

How do Muslim women that cover their faces use this phone?

umanwizard5• 9 years ago

You don't have to turn FaceID on -- you can continue using a normal passcode.

nadim• 9 years ago

Huge shout out to RZA, for making it into that Keynote.

d--b• 9 years ago

Everybody is discussing the features like they've already bought it. But I find that literally none of the features of the X make sense over the 7, or the 6 even. Maybe a lot of people said this before but to me that's it. The iPhone X event should be remembered as the event when Apple jumped the shark.

valine2• 9 years ago

The A11 is a massive leap forward over the 6 and 7, that alone is a pretty big reason to upgrade.

jlarocco• 9 years ago

Meh. I'm surprised they bumped the version to "X" for this.

Not every release can be amazing, but this is just an incremental hardware upgrade with some features taken out.

Meanwhile, they haven't fixed any of the most infuriating and annoying iOS bugs, and don't seem to have any plans to do so...

swsh• 9 years ago

By not marketing it as a replacement for the 7, Apple has managed to significantly bump the price of the device with barely anyone the wiser. Anyone hazard a guess at the increase in apples profit margin on the X. The price appears to have gone up significantly, for a comparatively small increase in BOM cost.

Even if you question their design decisions, it's hard to fault their product strategy

limaoscarjuliet• 9 years ago

Does face recognition mean my twin brother can use my phone to pay for his beer?

BTW, wondering how fast until there is "3D print you GF face so you can unlock her phone" service. I see Ali Express business booming.

ericlewis• 9 years ago

they explicitly talk about how they worked with extremely detailed mask makers to ensure that sort of thing doesn't happen.

sigjuice2• 9 years ago

They already butchered the MacBook Pro with the TouchBar last year. And all for a 30 second demo during the keynote. Here's hoping that FaceID actually works and isn't FacePalmID :/

nunez8• 9 years ago

Re: black bar. For what it's worth, folks that reviewed the Essential Phone said that the notch on the top does "go away" after using it for a few days.

What I am more disappointed about is Apple not going with a curved display. It looks amazing on the S8 and taking it edge to edge would have made for an incredible bezel-less illusion.

mzzter• 9 years ago

Wow, it's not aluminum..

alexnewman• 9 years ago

Welp staying with my SE

elorant• 9 years ago

It's funny how the thread has three times more comments that votes. It's like everyone is in a rush to say something but they forget to upvote the story. Shouldn't upvoting be automatic when you comment in a thread?

larodi• 9 years ago

No, it shouldn't. Because you may still want to comment on a story, so to say a part of it stinks in a very bad way. Something that IMHO is what most commentators are doing here, and for reason. By no means am I going to up-vote the latest apple bullsh*t, but will happily take time to read through the stuff and even drop a line.

danielrmay• 9 years ago

I don't think posting a comment necessarily means you value it as a submission

nom• 9 years ago

So how secure is FaceID actually? It does a 3d scan like the Microsoft Kinect and maybe gathers some more light information in the infrared sprectrum, but that can easily be circumvented with advanced 3D printing.

They even demonstrate that it recognizes you with facial modification like a new beard, a new haircut or a new pair of glasses.

By bet it that this technology is totally overblown and circumvented quickly.

vernie2• 9 years ago

It's likely exactly like a Kinect since they acquired PrimeSense in 2013.

MBCook27• 9 years ago

They said it's 20 times more secure than touch ID, which since it uses more data I could believe.

They also said that they got special-effects artists and other things to work on it and try and make it hard to track. I imagine it's going to take a lot more than a simple 3D printed head to trick.

We all knew as soon as this phone is released people are going to start trying to break this, it should be fun to see what people find.

cududa2• 9 years ago

With the Kinect "sign in to profile with your face" we made sure the person had a heartbeat - there's minute color fluctuations in your face that actually allow you to discern heart rate/ BPMs.

That was using primesense. Apple bought primesense. I'm sure they're doing something similar

zaroth16• 9 years ago

They make is so easy to login to the phone -- I'm still waiting for the ability to add multiple users. When I hand my phone to my daughter she should see her apps, my son, his. And when I hand my phone to my wife, she should unlock it and see.... her phone. If 256GB local storage and 11ac WiFi isn't enough storage and bandwidth to make this easy, I would be OK if it only kept the last GB of the camera roll.

Of course this sync should happen directly between our devices when they are on the same network. No need to go through the cloud.

By default if her phone rings it should only alert on her primary device. Unless she authenticates to my device at which point everything is there waiting. If her phone was ringing and she picks up my device and authenticates it should answer the call.

Ideally this is all smooth enough that we have matching devices and don't care which one either of us walks out of the house with.

The end game is that when networks are fast enough, the cloud mature enough, and homomorphic encryption performant, we get to the point where the phone basically lives in the cloud and anyone can pick up any iDevice, authenticate, and be looking at effectively their own device.

zaroth16• 9 years ago

I mean, just to expand on this.... there's no explicit sync, and no explicit backup. It's always synced. It's always backed up.

Imagine you walk into an Apple Store and pick up the latest iPhone XV. And there you are looking at your phone, your contacts, your apps, everything.

Underneath, it's a virtual shim. In the first instant it's merely grabbing thumbnails of all your apps and notification metadata so it can "look right". As you click in, scroll around, you polyfill data as you need it. Obviously in some cases a more substantial download would be needed, so you may not be able to pop into an AR game with 1GB of assets within the first 10 seconds of picking up the device, but if your primary is on the LAN you could bring the necessary data locally in ~5 seconds from tapping the icon. Underneath it's doing something analogous to "docker run" on that apps image. In some cases this would lock the image from running concurrently on another device, in other cases multi-master could be fully supported with live sync of the backing stream, e.g. for Apple Mail.

sanbor• 9 years ago

Bu you would have 1:1000000 chances to get into someone elses phone. With 7 billion people in the world it's not so crazy.

DontGiveTwoFlux• 9 years ago

You might check this out: https://www.hypori.com/platform

zeusk2• 9 years ago

As you click in, scroll around, you polyfill data as you need it

polyfill definitely doesn't mean what you think it does.

seszett• 9 years ago

Imagine you walk into an Apple Store and pick up the latest iPhone XV. And there you are looking at your phone, your contacts, your apps, everything.

Imagine anyone points their phone at you in the street, and there they are looking at your phone, your contacts, your apps, everything.

thinkythought• 9 years ago

The wild thing is, apple kind of already did this with handoff, and the iOS/OSX syncing. If my phone is ringing in the kitchen, and i have my laptop with me on the couch i'll get an alert and i can answer the call on my laptop. Or iPad. It doesn't even need to be near the phone, as long as they both have wifi or LTE connected. And while ipads don't do multiple users, on OSX if my roommate or someone else signed in then their calls and messages would come through too. When configged right, even texting to/from real numbers works.

They obviously already have this tech most of the way there and just... haven't implemented it?

zaroth16• 9 years ago

I have to believe it's where they are heading, I just really thought we would be there by now!

mixmastamyk5• 9 years ago

With the family tablet yes, my phone hell no!

zaroth16• 9 years ago

What exactly is "your phone"? Is it that physical mass of circuits and lithium ions in your hand? Or is it the bits making up the user-land data you've accumulated on it over time?

"Do you think that's air you're breathing?" ;-)

What I dislike most is handing someone "my phone" for them to use for a minute and they are actually using my phone. If they authenticated and were immediately interacting with their phone I have no problem sharing the hardware for a minute when the wife/kids want to do something briefly on it.

musage• 9 years ago

Then allow any computer to be configured that way, but don't try to sell lack of this feature as a feature.

madez• 9 years ago

Why would you restrict this to iDevices?

zaroth16• 9 years ago

I'm not sure what you mean? It's not going to work as a 3rd party service. So Apple can do it for its customers and I guess Google for its own, and Microsoft, and so on....

But how is Google going to ensure "full portability" across the lineup of all Android devices in the same way that Apple could do so for iOS?

Edit: Maybe this is what you meant? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15234615

lojack3• 9 years ago

What does my twin brother see when I hand him my phone?

zaroth16• 9 years ago

Even identical twins might not have facial features (due to body fat percentage differences or sun exposure) which are close enough to fool it.

It's an interesting question how exactly the device switches to the remote profile mode versus an "authentication failed" route. If the profile has never existed on the device you'll need permission from someone who is live on the device (in other words you need to get past the lock screen) to retrieve a new profile.

But if two profiles are live on a device owned by identical twins who can't be distinguished by FaceID -- perhaps detected by trying to authenticate the human to both profiles and seeing if both pass -- you're going to need a PIN (or something else) to distinguish them.

danielharrison2• 9 years ago

He doesn't. You turn the feature off.

rodorgas3• 9 years ago

Apple said in presentation you can't use FacialID if you have a (evil) twin.

jakobegger• 9 years ago

I strongly doubt that Apple will make it easier to share devices.

Every Apple device, from Macbooks to iPads to iPhones to Airpods is built to be a personal device. Even Macs, theoretically capable of multi-user, are a pain to share (eg try updating a Mac App Store app purchased with a different user account than the one you are logged in as)

Apple doesn’t want to sell one shared device to a family. They want to sell multiple devices to every family member.

zaroth16• 9 years ago

The number of hours I spend per week in front of an iOS device will not decrease by adding this feature. The number of hours my kids spend in front of iOS could conceivably increase though, speeding up the inevitable point where they get their own...

9935c101ab17a66• 9 years ago

I don't think Macs are at all a pain to share, and your example isn't very compelling.

tw042• 9 years ago

Then, at least around iPhone, they're idiots. I'm not going to have one cellphone for the whole family. Even in the best case scenario of my wife being a stay-at-home mom, I'm going to work. I'm not leaving my phone with her all day at home. And she's not going without a cellphone all day. So... where's the "one device per family" coming in? Even if we assume kids "share" - that works until they're what? 5? 6? 10? At some point the kid is going to want a phone at the same time you do, and eventually "No because I said so" is going to fall on deaf ears.

cm21873• 9 years ago

Even changing the email address of the Apple account is a world of pain. It confuses all of the ecosystem. But I think it is just poor software design, not necessarily malice.

amelius4• 9 years ago

I strongly doubt that Apple will make it easier to share devices.

So Apple devices are actually closer to being a PC than what we commonly call a Personal Computer.

addicted4• 9 years ago

Steve Jobs talked about this when he returned to Apple. He basically discussed how he would work at his home Mac and then come to the office and login and suddenly with the internet and networking the work Mac would be exactly the same.

I think the ideal should basically be that. You can pick up a phone, any phone (limited to iPhones for Aplle), login to your iCloud account and suddenly it's your phone, indistinguishable from the other phone thst was yours, outside maybe unavailable hardware features.

That's one of the great things about web apps. I can log into Gmail anywhere and it's the same thing. I haven't used it, but I believe this is the promise ChromeOS delivers.

copperx• 9 years ago

Isn't this the decades-old idea of Plan9?

mattacular3• 9 years ago

With ChromeOS you can, if you wanted to, sync all of your profile/settings to Google, "power wash" (completely clean) the machine upon shutting down. Then when you reboot syncing everything back to the machine happens upon entering your credentials.

snyp• 9 years ago

This is exactly what the hand off feature in iOS is about, granted it does not work across all apps but they have done some great improvements with iOS 11 and hopefully will keep improving upon it in the future

mattowen_uk• 9 years ago

> how he would work at his home Mac and then come to the office and login and suddenly with the internet and networking the work Mac would be exactly the same

I don't think this is the right end game. Now that almost every adult in the 1st world has a mobile phone in their pocket that is more than capable of being a desktop PC, the solution we should be heading for is universal docking stations (preferably) wireless. So that wherever you are, there's a large screen+keyboard+mouse (or the phone screen can be a trackpad) and your phone just connects to those, be it at work, or home, or in a hotel.

Your main machine is in your pocket; a lot of non-techie people don't even have any other personal computing device (laptop/desktop etc.).

Personally tho, I like having a division between my work machine(s), and my home machine(s).

agumonkey9• 9 years ago

This was looong ago and in the context of desktops which weren't as numerous and obiquitous as phones. Now Apple probably wants you to have 3, 4 of their devices and not 1 per room that can easily be shared.

torstenvl• 9 years ago

It seems obvious to me that Apple is developing the technology that will enable this. Handoff, continuity, iCloud, Apple Watch authentication/unlock... step by step, we're getting to a point where your user identity and your current work all travel with you.

AlphaSite• 9 years ago

I think a laptop is what he was really after, 1 computer that’s the same everywhere you are.

_jal• 9 years ago

How often do you change phones? I get it more with the model of desktop computers, maybe even laptops. But phones? Why? Is this a vision of a world where phones are treated like umbrellas?

In any case, my desires are for the opposite. If you don't own the storage substrate, you don't own the data on it, and I prefer to own my data. I have an iPhone, but don't use iCloud, except for syncing a couple specific things.

I remember the first release, and remember the NeXT model of "home directories on an optical drive". I was really, really hoping at the time that the iPhone would be that home directory, portable between machines. Now, I join the chorus of folks who think I should just be able to plug a monitor and keyboard into my phone. But that also needs to come with a viable computing environment, which for me means a unix shell and hardware control. Which is why I'm bolting for an open phone, as soon one actually gets off the ground.

saeed47• 9 years ago

That will never work since the facial tracking isn't allowed to be connected to a network. Remember all the data for facial tracking is stored locally.

lwansbrough• 9 years ago

Microsoft had this on Windows Phone -- sort of. It was for the most likely scenario: parents who hand their phone to their kids. They called it Kids' Corner, IIRC... Yes, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=475jxWQ955c

toephu23• 9 years ago

Multiple users are not a common use-case. Everyone* over the age of 12 has their own phone. I doubt Apple will add that feature anytime soon.

*By everyone I mean the majority of people in first world countries, some second, and third.

discordance• 9 years ago

The smartphone has become the modern day version of the pacifier. Pretty much every parent I know hands their phone to their child and it's unsettling how effective it is at pacifying children.

As for this feature request, I think it makes sense... I wouldn't want my kid tapping on my work email or social apps.

netc• 9 years ago

It is a common case for other iOS device(s) though. iPad in a family is usually shared across family members. I do wish apple add this feature in iOS, for iPads at least.

deepGem• 9 years ago

This is my only gripe with Apple. It's an incredible PITA to share devices even temporarily. You have to log the primary user out of their phone, login with your credentials and we are in business. This whole process is so long and frustrating that it forbids any sharing experience. I do wish Apple or someone made sharing devices a lot easier.

exodust2• 9 years ago

The scenario you describe sounds impractical, unlikely and unworkable, a very edge case "iOS fan family".

Walking out the door with just "any device" that is laying about? Nobody wants that. For one thing, an object like a phone is a personal device, not a sugar bowl passed around and left anywhere.

Your son and daughter will want their own devices, and it makes sense to give them their own devices such as your old phone or cheap phone. For one thing, when you hand your kid your phone you no longer have a phone. Someone might text or call, or the kid will burn through your battery with some game.

This only scratches the surface of what's wrong with your idea.

yoz-y4• 9 years ago

I would prefer to only have 3 “users”. Personal, Work and Guest. The Guest account would have access to a list of apps that I have installed but would not share my history and data. For example I do not want my wife’s YouTube history mixed with mine.

I think that setting up multiple accounts would make the experience worse as I don’t want other people to get too comfy. On an iPad that is a different case though.

macroexchange• 9 years ago

unfortunately our current global network doesn't allow for proper delegation of trust, so your vision is more like a dystopia where a few single corporations and ultimate governments have ultimate power. homomorphic encryption is way too limited to allow these things. traditional encryption is only about encoding channels, its not about solving runtime and delegation problems. it seems more like its going to be the other way around. giant institutions will be replaced with DAC's which perform the desired functions of users/citizens. I'd be happy enough if iPhone would be an open system where I can run my desired OS of choice, with open hardware components and profits going not to already rich investors, who pay close to 0 tax using Irish/Dutch shell companies, but also more to employees and customers.

WalterBright• 9 years ago

Heck, it would be nice if my desktops and laptops behaved that way. <plaintive sigh>

simonh5• 9 years ago

If her phone was ringing and she picks up my device and authenticates it should answer the call.

Unfortunately Apple don't get to decide how SIM cards, phone numbers and the cellular networks work. So that's not going to happen. Note how the watch has to have a SIM mated to your phone to take calls on your number.

As for FaceID and TouchID, that data isn't supposed to be readable at all, it's never sent to iCloud so how would it get synced between phones?

Then there's storage, all the contents of all your family's devices would need to be syncd between them all the time, multiplying up the amount of storage each device would need. You'd completely lose control of managing storage on your own device. You'd also essentially lose control of wireless bandwidth utilisation.

It's a lovely dream and maybe one day we'll get there. None of these problems are unsolvable in principle, but nobody can wave a magic wand and make them all go away. I think in the same way secure resource and feature sharing between apps required Apple to develop Secure XPC, this would require a lot of fiddly, complex technological and infrastructure groundwork before it could be possible.

nsomaru• 9 years ago

Macs can answer incoming calls to an iPhone. Why not route the same way?

Maybe there are limitations like needing to be on the same WiFi network or some such.

lostlogin3• 9 years ago

FaceTime audio, FaceTime video and iMessage don't suffer that problem and I preferentially use those. The cloud storage of biometric data is a problem though.

randomsearch4• 9 years ago

Sharing phones seems like an absolutely terrible idea. It goes against the simplicity and good design that Apple pursue. I can think of tons of problems with this: being out of signal; having biometric data in cloud; running face matching across huge databases where false positives are extremely likely; interrupted signal where things are corrupt; designing efficient caching algorithms; sharing onboard storage with multiple users; security properties protecting that data...

Personal devices are personal for a reason. Simple, elegant, effective. Expensive, yes... but a better solution is to buy your kids cheaper phones.

randomsearch4• 9 years ago

Oh, forgot the biggest: battery life killer.

veidr4• 9 years ago

seems like an absolutely terrible idea

Literally every single person in the world with an iPhone and young children wants this feature.

I'm guessing based on your proposed solution, you probably don't have kids? They don't want their cheaper phone; they want your phone.

zaroth16• 9 years ago

Who said anything about biometric data in the cloud? This doesn't need to work the same way the first time you see a device as it will work the second time you see it, after having fully authenticated the first time.

So, it doesn't have to alter the security attack surface or really even a major change in the secure element.

Someone from Apple should just reach out, the design is not simple but it's absolutely workable.

blubb-fish• 9 years ago

can pick up any iDevice, authenticate, and be looking at effectively their own device.

This is so obviously the opposite of what Apple has in mind. They want to sell as many phones as possible - not make them shareable.

zimpenfish4• 9 years ago

The amount of development, testing, and customer support this would require likely outweighs any profit increase by a couple of orders of magnitude. It'll never happen.

totalZero• 9 years ago

I don't want to share my device, ever. I like to know where it is at all times, even for benign uses like "i need a flashlight, where's my phone" or "what time is it." This feature would not improve my user experience.

majewsky5• 9 years ago

Nobody forces you to setup multiple user accounts.

AlfeG• 9 years ago

Even simple `Child Mode` will help drastically.

lstroud• 9 years ago

Ironically, a lot of tech companies had this vision for the enterprise in the late 90s. Insert your id card and instantly see all your stuff. Interestingly, for the most part the market rejected the idea. I suspect this is an idea that sounds good on paper, but ends up being undesirable to the majority of folks.

C4stor• 9 years ago

I think there was a lot of very poor executions too to be honest, with loading time everywhere unbearably long.

btbuildem• 9 years ago

I'm not walking out of the house with my wife's phone -- it looks like a Russian tank ran it over several times.

Concur on all the other points. Devices should be as transparent as possible. They're empty shells by design.

luvbb• 9 years ago

TouchID is not stored in the cloud. I hope FaceID isn't either.

jacurtis• 9 years ago

This would be less beneficial IMHO on a phone. My wife sometimes uses my phone, but she always has her own nearby. when she is using it, its for a quick, specific reason.

But I could really see this on an iPad. iPad's are often shared around a household, this would be amazing for that. Macs themselves would also apply here.

MR4D• 9 years ago

Then it would be a "mePhone" and conflict with their branding. :)

On a more serious note, the most I think we'll ever see from them is limited web browsing as a guest user.

grwthckrmstr• 9 years ago

"I'm still waiting for the ability to add multiple users."

One shared device with multiple profiles for your family members VERSUS One device each for each family member

To understand how Apple chooses to prioritise, simply ask the question - "Which option makes more money?"

liberte822• 9 years ago

I can already tell I'm soon going to be very tired of the word notch. It's starting to feel like the tartlets from Seinfeld.

billconan• 9 years ago

Does anybody know if there is an api to access the raw depth data of the truedepth camera?

Taniwha• 9 years ago

I'm going to train future face recognition phone to only work if I close one eye and stick my tongue out ... the border guards will never guess

drama-queen• 9 years ago

Telescreen X! Now with an improved backdoor!! Buy now!!!

jtl999• 9 years ago

I hope the OLED display used in the iPhone X doesn't use PWM, unlike Samsung.

LG OLED TV's seem nice as well, although I haven't looked at them for a long period of time.

kasabali3• 9 years ago

Good luck with that considering they're using Samsung panels.

IgorPartola2• 9 years ago

Ugh. So wireless charging is great. I really wanted that because having tried some Qi cases and charging gear, it is pretty magical. And the decision to use a glass back makes sense there.

However, Apple seems to just forget that people use their damn phones in cars. Waze is my GPS because no matter how much my car's built in GPS tries, it's not going to be as good as a thing connected to the internet. And in the car I hate to use the damn charger, so yay wireless charging right? Not so fast. Your choices are limited to a big clunky clamp style holder, or a little tiny magnetic holder that usually goes over one of the vents. Guess what? Magnetic holders don't work with wireless charging. Or rather they could, but the ones I've tried (available on Amazon) were complete shit that broke almost immediately.

There are several options to fix this problem:

a. Car manufacturers could include some kind of standard solution to this. At the least they could make a spot to easily mount a phone and make sure it doesn't obscure the driver's view too much while still being visible. Instead they keep insisting on adding bigger and bigger screens. Sometimes they'll go as far as adding a touch screen (looking at you Tesla) for no goddamn reason. Just give me a nice place to put an aftermarket phone cradle. Or at least don't add a 22" monitor where I want to put one.

b. Apple and/or Samsung could lead the industry in making wirelessly charging magnetic car mounts. It's not impossible to do, and magnets would actually help align the phone so charging is efficient wrt the induction coil used. Sure it has a nice glass back, but who gives a crap if I now need to add an ugly rubber case with a 2.5" steel washer to it just to get it mounted?

I get that Apple thinks CarPlay is their long term solution to this. But I think universal adoption by car manufacturers on that one is probably at least 5 years away. And even so, lifetime of older cars is like what 15-20 years?

This is why we can't have nice things.

wrboyce7• 9 years ago

BMW (at least, I can't speak for other car manufacturers) do have a wireless charging pad type thing inside the centre console.

You do realise the phone can still be charged with a cable, right?

IgorPartola2• 9 years ago

I know BMW has that. The point of their thing is that you can't use the phone while it's in there. They have "apps" that connect to their display. It's complete crap.

Of course you can charge with a cable. But you shouldn't. Wireless only charging would be fantastic. They already got rid of the headphone jack. Why do we need a data port?

Also, having a dedicated spot on the dashboard would mean not having to run dangling cables all over the place.

ransom1538• 9 years ago

Hey question. Currently, if an officer has you under arrest they go through your phone. With a strong password, they tend to give up. With FaceID wont they just put it to your face and unlock it?

rezashirazian• 9 years ago

I think it won't unlock if you close your eyes.

romanovcode• 9 years ago

They can always beat you until you give your password.

pducks32• 9 years ago

I thought Tim and the whole team did a great job presenting. And the whole company on every team did a fantastic job making every single piece easy to use. The iPhone X seems like a step forward in phones. I’ve used a number of androids and can say that the usability just isn’t there.

dylan-m• 9 years ago

So does it bug anyone else that the status bar around the notch looks misaligned? The rounded corners make me feel think it's sticking out past the bottom of the notch, and there's this huge empty space above it. Especially weird with the clock. Maybe it's one of those things that looks better in person.

sengork4• 9 years ago

I find it fascinating how hard Apple make it to find the battery capacity (mAh or Wh) for iPhones.

My understanding is that they do not want people to make a direct mAh capacity comparison to competing phones on the basis that iPhone can "squeeze out" more out of the smaller battery thanks to optimisations.

pcurve2• 9 years ago

Yeah I noticed that... But I don't think that worked out too well for the new mac book with much smaller battery.

maruhan2• 9 years ago

Rather off-topic question. How do you make an animation via scrolling like their "X"?

syspec• 9 years ago

Scale an element up (the X), while scaling another down (the device). Place both inside a position fixed/sticky container and interpolate between scaleStart scaleEnd as a ratio of how much has scrolled.

More to it than that from what I see here, but that will get you started

nodesocket• 9 years ago

Do we have any idea what carriers like Verizon will charge to lease the X? I am currently paying $109 all in for 4GB of data and unlimited calls and txt. Phone is iPhone 7 128GB.

retox• 9 years ago

No information about RAM or CPU speed/cores?

LouisSayers• 9 years ago

And in future news:

"Celebrity gets iPhone stolen. Naked photos unlocked at wax museum." :D

zeep• 9 years ago

"Our vision has always been to create an iPhone that is entirely screen"

so the iPhone 2x will have no speaker or camera in the front... or they will be behind the screen.

aphextron3• 9 years ago

I'm pretty impressed and blown away honestly that Apple chose to support Qi wireless charging over coming up with some proprietary nonsense. This might be the killer feature that finally gets me to upgrade.

sengork4• 9 years ago

I am guessing this had something to do with Steve Jobs no longer being there. More freedom for choosing technologies.

sengork4• 9 years ago

Would genuinely love to know the reasoning behind the negative votes. Steve's departure has certainly changed the company in the past.

Dravidian• 9 years ago

People who use 1000$ iPhoneX on office desk need another 400$ apple Watch to check for notifications.

tanilama• 9 years ago

No desire to buy one. Even it is well within my range of purchase power, this shit is expensive as hell.

ricokatayama• 9 years ago

Rounded Corners, Rounded Corners Everywhere!

Let's watch Spider-Man with a rounded screen

banach• 9 years ago

I was surprised not to see a reconstruction of your own face as one of the animoji options. More than a novelty, it could be very valuable possession to a family member, after someone passes away.

asafira• 9 years ago

One of the most distinguishing features of the phone is the vertical orientation of the backside cameras --- anyone else realize this is likely because their forward facing sensor bar is likely in the way if the backside cameras were horizontal?

A few other quick notes:

1) Those short x-ray shots of the iPhone camera assembly look impressive. I wonder how many components and extremely-fine-scale positioning have to go into the lens system (especially since they have to move! =) )

2) The lack of TouchID seems like a hardware regression to me, but I'd feel more or less confident in that based on the actual experience of FaceID vs TouchID. On a separate note: the engineers working on that must be paid boatloads given how valuable they must be to the company, combining both machine learning + security knowledge. (Not easy to find people like that.)

3) The screen is nice. I don't understand why people are complaining about the screen extending "behind" the front-facing sensorbar, to be honest --- seems like a tiny, fixable detail in the scheme of things

4) I really think people will buy this phone for the camera, and not for many of the other features that were advertised. (not AR, not awesome graphics, not amazing aluminum and glass, etc.)

5) Anyone know what usage has been like for Force Touch? I always was under the impression that it wasn't that popular, but kudos to Apple for not dropping it and still believing in it.

wrboyce7• 9 years ago

I can only speak of my own usage, but I use Force Touch a fair bit. The first use case that comes to mind (and one I use fairly often) is changing the torch brightness but the app shortcuts are handy too (also force push on a folder with notifications for quick access to the apps with notifications within it).

ratsz• 9 years ago

geometric data is a username, not a password

rurban• 9 years ago

Did they botch the Mac Air upgrade similar to the Pro now? Or is it still usable?

makecheck• 9 years ago

I kind of wish the "home screen line" at the bottom was a big long thick rounded line to mirror the notch on top. That would make the notch a lot less jarring. In the screenshots the "normal" UI seems to never use the bottom space anyway.

bsenftner2• 9 years ago

Couple of issues here, speaking as a facial recognition developer, of arguably one of the leaders in the industry.

1) The use of 3D data is a step in the right direction, but to use it reliably it has to constantly re-calibrate to the individual(s) it is supposed to pass. This is very important and a constant issue if using a person's 3D depth data as their face for authentication. My employer pioneered the use of 3D data for facial recognition, via 3D reconstruction, before scanning and depth cameras were feasible. In doing so, we became aware of the significant variation an individual's 3D facial form undergoes during any time period: different times of the day, yes, significant 3D facial form transformation; different days, definitely. Females significantly more, as they experience 3D form transformations simply from their menstrual cycle. Men who drink, less so than women, also gain significant facial form transformations on a weekly basis. Over the course of a season, everyone undergoes significant 3D form transitions, to the degree authentication is not reliable unless constant re-calibration occurs. Which introduces issues of system failure after indeterminate lapses of use, or sudden physical transformation - such as an accident, where your face is swollen. A person could be attacked, and their face altered to the degree their phone no longer authenticates. A person could fast for 2 days, not use their phone, and it will no longer pass.

2) They should be using multiple biometrics for authentication. The facial image in combination with the depth information, if treated separately with completely separate verification trained algorithms, only counts as two biometrics. Reliable authentication of a device attached to one's credit cards and finances requires a MINIMUM of 3 biometrics. They could solve that with the addition of Touch-ID or the addition of a pass code in addition to the face image and the face 3D depth data. But that borders on 'inconvenience', and I feel consumer pleasing stupidity. Sometimes being safe should require an extra step, simply so the consumer has the assurance their data is safe. It's like hearing the click as the lock on your door seals. Too automatic, and it's insecure because one never knows if it is active.

However, ignoring the face as authentication, the iPhone just became a very slick 3D avatar creator.

mstolpm• 9 years ago

Ad 1): They briefly mentioned in the keynote that Face ID does indeed adapts to gradual changes like growing a beard. So, that form of recalibration seems to be part of the concept.

bsenftner2• 9 years ago

It has to be.

yoz-y4• 9 years ago

Do you have reason to doubt that Apple did not do all of this or even more? In the end we’ll see but one indicator is that the banks at least let them use Apple Pay with FaceId. I am guessing here but I suppose they will still get the “card present” tarifs and if I recall correctly that was tied to the fact that banks deemed TouchId a sufficient form of authentication.

eight_ender2• 9 years ago

Not hating on your points, because they're valid, but the sudden transformation part of #1 strikes me as similar to when your hands are wet and you're trying to use TouchID. The phone will shake the passcode prompt a few times and eventually give up and ask you for your passcode.

I don't really see a problem with this. Apple has done a good job of making it known their biometrics aren't perfect, and will err on the side of caution when tested with strange inputs. You're not allowed to setup the phone without a passcode, and it serves as the final barrier to access if biometrics fail.

yellowapple• 9 years ago

Didn't we already learn 20 years ago that if an Apple product ends in an X, virtually nobody will actually say it like the X is a Roman numeral?

Or am I a transplant from that weird parallel universe with "Mack Oh Ess Ecks" and the Berenstein Bears?

halfnibble• 9 years ago

Swipe gestures, a steel frame, and a higher ppi screen. It sounds like the iPhone may have finally caught up with my BlackBerry Passport SE. Maybe I'll give the iPhoneX a try.

kk_cz• 9 years ago

Who knows, maybe in few years we'll have the "first ever" smartphone with physical keyboard

madshiva3• 9 years ago

$ 1200 for a brick and people still buy this crap phone. All people who buy this phone should be ashamed. Stop wasting the earth. Thanks.

CreMindES• 9 years ago

For me, the tweet of the day https://twitter.com/moia/status/907706685266915328 :)

martijn_himself• 9 years ago

I'm more than happy to pay £1k for the iPhone X if it docks and I'm able to use it as a Mac Mini running MacOS. It should be powerful enough.

Bogi30• 9 years ago

Price of this phone wtf is this in my country cost 1200 euro this cheaper version :/ http://blendberg.com/pl/oferta-bazy-danych-gotowe-bazy-danyc...

amelius4• 9 years ago

Why don't we have unlock you phone with your watch? Or unlock a desktop with your watch? Or enter a password on a website with your watch?

Sounds more useful and secure to me than any fingerprint/facial scanner. And it allows Apple to sell more watches.

wrboyce7• 9 years ago

Or unlock a desktop with your watch?

This is a thing, has been for a while.

mattacular3• 9 years ago

Wouldn't that involve implementing some sort of remote unlocking scheme which is basically what Apple publicly fought/denied the FBI?

alex_duf• 9 years ago

The OLED screen and the gesture based UI makes me think about the Nokia N9.

Loved that phone.

nojvek• 9 years ago

I'm just excited the GPU'S are getting faster in a mobile device. I really wanted Apple to have more pixel density in their iPhone X. 2000+ do would mean that we can wear an iPhone as a head set and have a descent VR experience.

iPhone X

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