Our commitment to Windows quality

https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2026/03/20/our-commitment-to-windows-quality/

by hadrien01 • 4 months ago

648 1197 4 months ago

blogs.windows.com

PaulHoule3• 4 months ago

"...we are reducing unnecessary Copilot entry points, starting with apps like Snipping Tool, Photos, Widgets and Notepad."

Great!

ceejayoz• 4 months ago

"… by making them necessary entry points! Muahahaha!"

palmotea• 4 months ago

"… by making them necessary entry points! Muahahaha!"

Starting with Windows 11 26H2, the Start Menu will be removed and replaced with Copilot. In order to use a locally hosted app, an externally hosted LLM will need to be instructed to launch it. The reliability is phenomenal: our testing has shown it can launch the right app with 95% accuracy.

cardamomo• 4 months ago

Great? Maybe! But this doesn't say, "We are removing Copilot from apps."

PaulHoule3• 4 months ago

My personal opinion is "Copilot is pretty good as a chatbot [1] but don't waste your time trying anything multimodal." So I don't mind it at all, in fact I like it enough that I installed the app on my phone. I've got no interest in having it rewrite stuff for me in Word or for LinkedIn though.

On the other hand, Microsoft is famous for killing something good (like OneNote) but spamming the UI with numerous entry points that will make you think "this is some piece of crap that Microsoft is spamming because nobody in their right mind would want it." That they are getting some self-awareness of this is a good sign.

[1] I'd say Google's AI Mode gives consistently better answers (like use "vite-ignore" instead of writing a Vite plugin that doesn't work) than copilot with the reservation that if Google seems to get uncomfortable about a conversation it will end the conversation with a ten pack of search results whereas Copilot tries to simulate a person with healthy boundaries (e.g. "I will help you write a romance story but I won't help you write a sex scene")

iknowstuff4• 4 months ago

Metrics must have showed disappointing results and they're trying to brand this as a consumer friendly move

SilasX• 4 months ago

Ugh. They horribly borked Notepad. The whole reason I use it is because it's dumb and simple. The moment you change it into a full-featured rich text editor with AI assistants and autocorrect ... you should just make it another app, because it's solving a different problem.

At the very least, don't forget my font setting on the update.

pndy4• 4 months ago

Nothing on limiting dependence on online account/services and forced hardware requirements. The rest sounds like every text people could read for decades during Windows installation.

Sorry Microsoft, some people already transfer to a different train because you offered a crazy ride.

chrisjj2• 4 months ago

forced hardware requirements

... like every OS ever.

gzread5• 4 months ago

Listen to their actions, not their words.

satiric• 4 months ago

Of course the proof in the pudding is in the eating, but just saying that they want to do this stuff is at least a slight improvement over before, where we mostly just saw apathy and enshittification. It's also a promise that people can hold them to if they fail.

stego-tech2• 4 months ago

This. Microsoft has said similar things before, and always tripled down on bad behavior afterward. Their priority is business outcomes, not user experiences or support, and that’s why even this non-apology makes it clear the stuff customers, engineers, and support staff hate - invasive telemetry, outright surveillance/spyware, online-only requirements, AI-everywhere, constant arbitrary deprecation of APIs and endpoints for external tools to drive internal product adoption, refusal to support consumer technologies long-term (MCE, WMR) or do things contrary to everyone else (print drivers) - isn’t actually getting addressed.

Don’t listen to the smooth talk. Plan an exit strategy now, before you need it later.

hbn3• 4 months ago

Plan an exit strategy now, before you need it later.

The idea that we'll all be forced off of Windows one day sounds like a dream, but so far we continue to be in a state where myself and many other are long past the point of wanting to leave, but we can't for some reason or another.

Microsoft knows that, which is why they've been able to do whatever they want and not worry about the consequences.

nathanaldensr• 4 months ago

"Our Commitment to Gaslighting Everyone with Corporate Marketing Language"

Someone12345• 4 months ago

They're saying all the right things here.

Fixing long-standing complaints, removing Copilot from obnoxious places, improvements to Windows Update and Windows Explorer stability/microstutter/lag, etc.

I congratulate them on seeing sense, and I congratulate Apple on another victory with the Neo. Kind of frustrating that's what it took for Microsoft to finally listen to their userbase.

binsquare• 4 months ago

Don't congratulate yet until you see actual outcomes.

The author of this commitment is the same person (Pavan Davuluri) spearheading move of Windows into an Agentic OS: https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-...

xvector3• 4 months ago

Absolutely nothing wrong with an "agentic OS", agentic UX is the future of personal computing. The ideal is that something intelligent understands what you want to do and gets it done.

Unless you really think we've reached the pinnacle of user interface with repetitive clicking around and menus.

The problem is with shoving AI down user's throats. Make it an option, not the only option.

runjake• 4 months ago

I can't upvote this comment enough.

The only thing I'd add is that not only did he tweet the infamous tweet that caused the backlash, Pavan ridiculed those in the backlash (since deleted). Also, Satya still spews the same "agentic OS" narrative as recent as last week.

So, I hope for the best, but I don't plan on taking them at their word.

dgxyz2• 4 months ago

Everyone at MSFT who is senior is a lying piece of shit these days. I remember on here Satya being treated like the second coming of Jesus due to his promises. Any comments against him were downvoted.

Look where we are now.

mrktf• 4 months ago

I agree and sadly I wouldn't hold hopes to see actual meaningful changes (granted - last time had windows was win 7),

My reasoning is from bitter experience. I saw too many these honest talks/commitments - it always this pattern when product/company starts to decline. Suddenly somebody with technical background shows up talks about past mistakes and what need to fix. Even sometimes holds discussion, which is usually very reasonable. But as time goes there only cosmetic changes with excuses like lack of resources, market wind changed this time, too hard make changes due politics and etc.

anonymars10• 4 months ago

Yeah, as soon as I saw the author, my optimism faded back to cynicism

gjsman-10002• 4 months ago

They're saying all the right things here.

They are not saying "we will remove the mandate to use a Microsoft Account." By itself, that shows their "care" is purely corporate, likely driven to calm down furious OEMs who will happily remind them Apple doesn't need an Apple Account to use a now-cheap Mac.

Also, because Nadella can't stand the word, I'll say it right here: Microslop is still making Winslop to help people make Officeslop to then upload to Slopdrive.

Someone12345• 4 months ago

Good point, and that one has actually caused logistical headaches. If someone tries to set up a new out-of-box computer without an internet connect, well, you just cannot. Even the previously working bypass has been removed in a recent update.

And, yes, I am aware that Pro/Enterprise don't suffer from this, but a LOT of computers sold are Windows Home/OEM licenses. It impacts a ton of people.

bigstrat20032• 4 months ago

They also aren't saying "we're going to prioritize performance and make sure that when we rewrite functionality, it performs just as well as what it's replacing". Color me skeptical that they actually care about quality.

itopaloglu835• 4 months ago

I'm sorry but I need to see it to believe it. Otherwise who can explain, how the Windows Explorer struggles to list 20 files.

How is it even possible to spend 4-5 seconds to show a list of files in a local freaking folder?

rdedev• 4 months ago

Right now my start menu randomly crashes. Like all I see is a black box with no icons. I'm impressed with how even basic functionalities break pretty often

matheusmoreira3• 4 months ago

The Windows computer I have to use at work takes over 15 seconds to start the new calculator app. The old calculator launched instantly.

rob742• 4 months ago

Well honestly, that's the easiest problem to fix: just install any of the dozens of excellent and stable third party file managers. I for instance am (or was, while I still used Windows) a fan of Total Commander (actually, when I started using it, it was called Windows Commander). As a bonus, you'll be spared the useless UI and usability changes inflicted upon you with every new Windows version.

ffwd2• 4 months ago

I find that this happens when you enter folders that have media files like audio files, video files and so on. One way to fix it is to enter one such folder, then remove all columns (like file name, date modified - those columns) and remove all the columns that are media metadata columns. Things like track length, artist, contributing artist or whatever else, then click in the File explorer menu on the 3 dots icon (**) and select View tab, then click 'Apply to folders'. This will apply the column and view settings that you just applied to all such folders.

Now all folders with media files open immediately. Also if you want no wait for video files folders, right click in the folder and select 'View -> Details or View -> List or some other option where it doesn't create thumbnails and it'll load even quicker.

jimbokun3• 4 months ago

Maybe there's an LLM learning about sorting from first principles every time you click to change the sort column.

winwang• 4 months ago

...I almost thought it was a parody site!

malfist4• 4 months ago

Are they?

I see nothing about privacy, spying, forced microsoft accounts and continued locking down of windows that they've been doing.

I see that they're bringing back _some_ of the taskbar options you had in windows 10 (termed it as "introducing"), they promise to make Explorer faster, great. But they also say they're bringing more AI into windows and something about widgets that I don't think anyone cares about.

And lastly they're promising to revamp the place where you go to rant at microsoft, but they're not promising to actually listen to feedback.

wmf2• 4 months ago

privacy, spying, forced microsoft accounts...

Yep. That stuff makes money (via upsells) so it will never be removed.

senfiaj• 4 months ago

Yep, wanted to write the same thing. I remember 2 occasions when even Windows 10 Pro attempted to force me to login into MS account when booting my Laptop. Somehow I skipped it (I don't remember well what I did, since obviously they made it unintuitive). Much later I eventually logged into the account just to buy Minecraft, but boy, this sudden forcing to use MS accounts during the boot was so disgusting. I guess this is becoming much worse now. After learning that MS is making harder and harder to setup local account (eventually it will become impossible?) and even Notepad can ask for MS account, I deleted Windows and installed Ubuntu.

Online accounts are fine when optional, but unacceptable when forced.

mexicocitinluez• 4 months ago

From the article: "focusing on experiences that are genuinely useful and well‑crafted".

Can you imagine actually using that as an excuse when managing one of the most important software companies in the world? I'm just in awe at how little self-relfectio they have at that company.

The implication is that they weren't focused on "genuinely useful and well-crafted" features 40 years into their company's history and it's unbelievable to read.

karel-3d• 4 months ago

it's funny because from Apple side, the OS is not that rosy either, it's buggier it has ever been.

(that's an overstatement, early OS X were buggy too, but they just switched to Unix after OS9, so, understandable.)

it's just better than Windows, which is just aggressively bad. (and I guess Linux is eating their gamers market with Proton? but I am not a gamer)

thewebguyd• 4 months ago

Can't help but feel like Microsoft is getting pressured by the laptop OEMs to make Windows not suck, because of the MacBook Neo is going to eat all their lunches.

kiicia2• 4 months ago

This is just cheap damage control, just wait and see if they actually do all of those things correctly. Slow file explorer was an issue since very beginning of windows 11 and they "fix" it only now? But they took time to add copilot to snippet tool?

naikrovek2• 4 months ago

An optimist! I love to see it.

Saying and doing are very different. They have passed through the "fuck around" phase, and are entering the "find out" phase of this AI journey. Lots of companies are, suddenly.

My employer trained us all on the Gartner hype cycle, tested us on how to remain level-headed before and during the peak of unreasonable expectations and now every single manager in the company is drooling over AI, saying that "this is the future, join us or find another job" and I cannot wait for the curve to come back down to a sane level where intelligence rules behavior as much as it used to. We'll see.

We’ve certainly done the “fucking around” and now we'll see if we "find out" enough to regain our sanity and our humanity.

jacquesm3• 4 months ago

All this means is that it will go underwater.

crispinb• 4 months ago

They're saying all the right things here ..

No. "Commitment" in corporate speak is a synonym for "absolute lack of intention". That's why corps 'commit' to reducing emissions, treating employees fairly, etc, ie. to all the things they will not do. But no suit 'commits' to making money. They just make money. It's just a superficial linguistic gesture. Shakespeare got it.

schubart• 4 months ago

Windows touches more people’s lives than almost any technology on Earth. Every day, we hear from the community about how you experience Windows. And over the past several months, the team and I have spent a great deal of time analyzing your feedback. What came through was the voice of people who care deeply about Windows and want it to be better.

They are not even acknowledging that feedback is negative. They make it sound like a love fest where users love windows so much that they want to make it even better.

Mr_Minderbinder• 4 months ago

improvements to Windows Update

Even with their proposed “improvements” to Windows Update it would remain inferior in principle to what it was in Windows 7 (or 8 which I never used) and prior when you could “pause” updates indefinitely or, in non-dystopian terms, refuse them. If a third party, even one that you trust, can mandate changes to the software on your computer, then it is not really your computer.

heresie-dabord• 4 months ago

They're saying all the right things here.

That's what a corporation does.

andrewstuart2• 4 months ago

If the people in charge of Windows have to solicit customer feeedback to fund out what’s wrong, then I guarantee you the real problems won’t be fixed.

These people don’t even know their own product.

VectorLock• 4 months ago

Big PR pushback against the Microslop sobriquet.

itopaloglu835• 4 months ago

Not a course correction, but a reaction from some engineers who are tired of getting mocked by everyone.

hyperhello3• 4 months ago

“We hear you and will improve quality” is bullshit code. It means “we figured out our strategy long ago and you’re not it”.

daft_pink• 4 months ago

to me it went off the rails when I couldn’t get local search from the start menu in windows 8.1

ivl3• 4 months ago

More taskbar customization, including vertical and top positions: Repositioning the taskbar is one of the top asks we’ve heard from you. We are introducing the ability to reposition it to the top or sides of your screen, making it easier to personalize your workspace.

I wonder if this will include being able to put it on the non-primary display once again. It's not mentioned, but that was one of the biggest frustrations with Windows 11. It seems their focus is exclusively on single display devices.

It also ruined my flow for my flight sim until I found a workaround. The fullscreen window wishes to launch to the primary display, which means losing the useful bits of the taskbar.

I love what they're saying, but my faith in them is very, very is low.

wvenable3• 4 months ago

I cannot recommend StartAllBack enough.

ivl3• 4 months ago

I used that for a time, but it's licensing made me move to WindHawk.

hbn3• 4 months ago

I recently managed to configure StartAllBack to make practically everything look like Windows 7, and it's improved the experience ten times over

lstodd• 4 months ago

I can't believe I'm reading about those things being presented as new and exciting in 2026.

I had to dig around because I could not remember since when I take this stuff - putting as many toolbars as you'd like anywhere on multiple monitors you feel like as granted and yes, 14 years ago xfce 4.10 was released. Time flies, I guess.

alashow• 4 months ago

I thought this was already possible before?

aprilnya• 4 months ago

I think what ivl means is that the secondary-screen taskbars don’t have anything on them… just apps and a clock. So no tray, no quick settings, etc

paradox460• 4 months ago

I was expecting a 404

delta_p_delta_x3• 4 months ago

This is good to hear, as someone who has used basically nothing but Windows since 2000. I haven't stepped off the Windows train yet. I use Linux at arm's length for my homelab's hypervisor and at work, but my daily driver is still Windows 10.

I must be the only one to write something like this on HN, but I sincerely like Windows' technical fundamentals and architecture; its design is sensible and extensible. And very frankly I prefer the developer experience on Windows, where you can write a (relatively) high-quality native desktop application with purely first-party tooling and release a single, tiny (~10^4 bytes) executable that quite literally runs anywhere. The Windows API surface area is huge and developers can write entire multi-domain programs without ever looking for a third-party library.

This probably sounds like a lot of copium, but I feel like recent events like the rising costs of memory and competition like the MacBook Neo will light a fire under Microsoft's arse. I really hope some of the AI overboard in Windows 11 is rolled back over the near future. They should migrate core Windows applications back to native and CLI technologies, actually support and maintain these without chasing the next big thing, and release frameworks for safer compiled languages like Rust, Zig, and Odin, and allocate more resources to F#.

mfro• 4 months ago

Windows is still a solid 'gets out of the way' operating system (with numerous tweaks, customizations, and stripping) when it works. If they focus on fixing UX issues and improving stability and performance, it may be enough to slow the rise of desktop Linux.

Better support for F#, or really any language other than C# is a longshot though. Those resources were likely 'reallocated' to AI R&D indefinitely.

delta_p_delta_x3• 4 months ago

Windows is still a solid 'gets out of the way' operating system

A good way to put it.

There are third-party tools that Microsoft really need to adopt to make Windows a bit nicer (WizTree, VoidTools Everything, adopt improvements from Total Commander, make more PowerToys default), but broadly it is still a decent OS. There are issues like slow `CloseHandle()` because of Defender (which needs to be a bit less zealous), and maybe more first-party adoption of WinGet.

On the other hand, every time I use desktop Linux I get some paper cut because some edge case that I just don't ever think about is broken on Linux, whether it be my multi-monitor high pixel density layout, my USB audio interface and peripherals, or my touchpad sensitivity and gestures that Windows was widely derided for in the early 2010s and suddenly after 'Precision Touchpads'[1] no one ever complained about again, or random GPU glitches even on Intel/AMD integrated graphics that I have literally never seen on the Windows desktop, or poor battery life (Windows somehow gets 2-3x the battery life of Linux).

yjftsjthsd-h2• 4 months ago

I must be the only one to write something like this on HN, but I sincerely like Windows' technical fundamentals and architecture; its design is sensible and extensible.

Nah, NT always had... mostly... good guts. (The filesystem layer apparently made some really poor life choices, but otherwise.) As a die hard Unix guy, I've always been quite fond of NT's core tech. It's just made by a terrible company and shoved inside of an operating system that actively hates me. But the core OS is cool.

delta_p_delta_x3• 4 months ago

The filesystem layer apparently made some really poor life choices

NTFS is plenty fast, even for thousands of small files; it is the Windows Defender file system filter driver that slows things down. Specifically, it slows down CloseHandle[1].

NT's core tech

I'm not just talking about NT. I think most of the user mode is great, too. Office blows the pants off most other 'office' suites. D3D is generally very forward-looking, and many extensions are released on D3D first, sometimes years before they're ported to Vulkan (ray-tracing, mesh shaders, descriptor heaps, etc). Windows has had a superb low-latency audio subsystem in WASAPI since Vista, which is something like a decade before Linux got Pipewire. There are many other examples of random cool stuff in Windows that Linux 'rediscovered independently' but Windows got there much earlier just because of the sheer install base and surface area.

[1] https://gregoryszorc.com/blog/2021/04/06/surprisingly-slow/

goalieca• 4 months ago

I found the microsoft development experience to be terrible aside from win32. Yes, win32 lasts forever and outlived every attempt to replace it. There's been no end in half-baked APIs such as winforms, direct video, etc. I once had a problem where i was writing a video streaming thing that had to touch a bunch of meta-data inside a WPF program and then have it run on different versions of windows. There was no "one true way" and ended up doing it all in QT.

apitman• 4 months ago

I'm not sure these problems are solvable once a company gets big enough and incentives completely take over. It's like the hands are trying to sew a parachute while the legs are sprinting towards a cliff.

grafda• 4 months ago

Feels like screaming "please don't leave us, we will now build what you ask for". On the one hand, this is great to hear, but on the other side I wonder how much this will matter. Apple is now winning on the hardware other than offering a better UX experience. But they also have lost their touch with it over the years!

onemoresoop2• 4 months ago

Feels like screaming "please don't leave us, we will now build what you ask for"

And when all is good and everybody's too busy to pay attention we'll force feed you an update that will revert all changes to what we want.

kiicia2• 4 months ago

Because it is just cheap damage control. They somehow remembered only now about things that should be there since the very beginning.

smusamashah2• 4 months ago

These are not improvements, its not even a good bait. I don't care about their stupid taskbar anymore. I 100% believe that any improvements they are promising will be so tiny it won't matter.

FifthTundraG• 4 months ago

Talk is cheap. Show me the changes.

the__alchemist3• 4 months ago

I am sus. Optimistic but sus. I am hoping for some combo of:

  - MS doing what they say here. (Uphill battle given the perverse incentives others have mentioned) My gut says Windows is going to be *worse* vs better, and I am willing to settle for stagnating...

  - Linux desktop makers taking UX, ABI/linking compatibility, and "just works" seriously.

It's like you could take the good from both and discard the bad, but it hasn't happened yet.

itopaloglu835• 4 months ago

It sure looks like a PR campaign to take the attention away from how bad the things are, and I need to see it to believe it.

Also, why couldn't they make this announcement as they release the taskbar change. Taking away the most basic features and bringing a few back doesn't mean things are improving, it means things are getting petty.

There is no reason for the start menu to take 2 seconds to show up on a computer with 8 CPUs running at 4GHz. We all know that they're completely half-assing everything now.

the__alchemist3• 4 months ago

Yea concur. "Here's a patch and here are the notes" vs "Here are the notes for future efforts" would be more credible!

yjftsjthsd-h2• 4 months ago

Linux desktop makers taking UX, ABI/linking compatibility, and "just works" seriously.

Would you settle for 2 out of 3? UX is improving, and things get more polished every year, but we've mostly settled on shoving things into some sort of package (container, flatpak, snap) alongside all its dependencies specifically so we don't have to actually stabilize any sort of ABI

the__alchemist3• 4 months ago

Yep. Will take what I can get! Re the flatpacks, snaps, docker etc. Yea... I don't like those much more than the Apple/Google/MS app stores. They don't have the perverse incentives, but are still setting up friction points vs being able to just have an executable work, expect to work in 5-10 years, and work on diff distros. (This is something MS actually does right; possibly the best thing about Win)

I was coincidentally just updating old softare I wrote, and I just ripped out the snap, RPM and Debs because I can't be bothered to maintain all of them.

drschwabe• 4 months ago

Too little too late, open source Windows 7 and give it a new 10 year LTS commitment then we can talk.

SpecialistK2• 4 months ago

What does 7 offer over a LTSC version of 10/11 that open source couldn't fix?

bigyabai10• 4 months ago

A user interface that wasn't designed in the middle of 4 identity crises.

albert_e• 4 months ago

We used to be able to make any folder a popup menu on taskbar, including any subfolders. Served the need for quick shortcuts to whatever we need within 2 clicks. Sorely miss it in Win11.

bronlund• 4 months ago

It’s Better To Ask For Forgiveness Than Permission

_fw• 4 months ago

Something tickles me about describing the forced inclusion of Copilot as “entry points” in things like Notepad. It reveals Microsoft’s intentions SO precisely.

They aren’t trying to add Copilot in useful ways for their users. They’re forcing it into Notepad when they know it doesn’t fit there, because it might be your “entry” into their slop generator.

User experience be damned, these shareholders must have their value.

dsr_• 4 months ago

Reminder: companies don't go on PR blasts without cause. Being cynical about tech companies is always a good bet.

frou_dh• 4 months ago

It's got to be somewhat depressing working on a household name product in its trashy downturn. Surely you can't have the pride in your work that an equivalent employee once would have.

delduca• 4 months ago

Microslop strikes again with lies.

hnburnsy• 4 months ago

Left or right task bar placement, finally!

JohnFen4• 4 months ago

Windows has been going downhill for too long for me to take them at their word. I'll believe it when I see it.

Windows is as much yours as it is ours.

Microsoft has been inflicting unwanted crap on me for years now, and they keep expanding with more unwanted crap (even to the point of wanting to force people to have Microsoft accounts) as time goes on. Reading this line actually made me laugh out loud. No, Microsoft, you don't believe this even a little.

kevmo• 4 months ago

Microsoft needs to be broken up.

miyuru• 4 months ago

I don't think there will any thing to broken if they go down this path.

They are still investing in AI, when they should be investing in ARM.

Apple silon is winning developers, even enterprise and with NEO the entry level market where MS was king.

rco8786• 4 months ago

More taskbar customization, including vertical and top positions:

When did they get rid of that?

ivl3• 4 months ago

With Windows 11.

In 10 and prior you could even move it to other monitors, just by dragging and dropping it. It's baffling they thought that functionality was a bug that people wanted 'fixed'.

pndy4• 4 months ago

Didn't MS rewrote whole panel again in W11? Surely they did that in W10 to re-implement Start menu they removed in W8

numpad0• 4 months ago

They rewrote it in a binary compiling web thing, and not all features were in the baseline requirement.

drob518• 4 months ago

It feels like Windows is old and tired. Remember when Microsoft and Intel seemed unstoppable in the 1990s and early 2000s? The momentum is no longer there. The latest bad decisions around AI for Microsoft are just the straw breaking the camel’s back.

BoredPositron3• 4 months ago

It feels like a live service game that went on for too long. Like world of warcraft or fortnite. We need a windows classic release asap.

rleigh• 4 months ago

When they used to have to fit the whole thing onto six floppy discs, it had to be constrained in size and scope. Today there are no constraints and it really shows. I think having hard constraints, be it storage, memory, cpu, update distribution, product requirements, drives quality and forces hard engineering decisions to fit within them. I think a lot that is wrong with Microsoft of today is a complete loss of enginering discipline and focus; you only have to look at the incoherence of their GUI development strategy to see how badly they are doing there.

I think it would have been useful for them to have really made a proper effort at modularising Windows along the lines of how Linux distributions and the BSDs do things. I can't see any way of recovery from the bloated mess they have created; they can't keep cramming any more in, it's an unstable, unusable and untestable mess.

1970-01-012• 4 months ago

Dave P. has the same take in a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTpA5jt1g60

xnx6• 4 months ago

Sounds like a big "Under New Management" announcement after Mustafa Suleyman was demoted.

zombot• 4 months ago

Are they microsofter in the brain than MicroSlop? MegaSlop? GigaSlop? Reading "Windows" and "quality" in the same sentence already triggers every bullshit alert in the book.

throwuxiytayq• 4 months ago

Too little and too late. I’ll believe it when I’ll see it. And so far everything I’ve seen has told me to abandon ship. Even if you reverse course, you’d need a miracle to make me trust you anytime soon.

This is how goodwill works. Easy to burn, hard to earn back. I’m not touching any products by Meta, Google or Microsoft, and none of them are getting me back on board with a cute blog post.

xnx6• 4 months ago

Faster and more dependable File Explorer: ... more reliable performance for everyday file tasks.

This would be great. It's still easy to freeze up File Explorer when moving thousands of files. The same operation from the command line works fine.

sakesun• 4 months ago

I'm glad they explicitly mention File Explorer. As a person solely use Windows for decades, I've naturally developed a very deep allergical behavior of avoiding to touch File Explorer as much as I can for years. Hope they could help fix me. I really need VSCode-like experience for files management.

rgovostes• 4 months ago

To demonstrate the seriousness of their commitment to Windows quality, you can now move the taskbar to the left side of the screen. No no, it's not vaporware, they even included four screenshots. Everyone can rest assured now.

as1mov2• 4 months ago

you can now move the taskbar to the left side of the screen

Windows 11 is finally catching up to MATE desktop (which is maintained possibly by a single guy from their basement), what a time to be alive!

bigyabai10• 4 months ago

Hell, taskbar positioning was a feature on Windows 10. They're just pretending like they didn't remove it for brownie points.

mikestew• 4 months ago

Windows 11 is catching up to Windows XP.

twobitshifter3• 4 months ago

A feature they removed due to their inability to make it performant in Windows 11 A feature that existed as early as win95. The most requested change in user voice, since the earliest windows 11 betas.

bitwize3• 4 months ago

It takes a team of Ph.D. level engineers to implement left-hand taskbars in a performant way! You can't expect ordinary folks from the Windows shell team to code at that level!

TiredOfLife2• 4 months ago

That feature was never in windows 11. The taskbar and start menu in windows 11 are from a cancelled version of windows meant for Surface neo

combyn8tor• 4 months ago

I had to check the date on my phone as I was sure it was an April fools joke. After the absolute onslaught of negative feedback and the new term "Microslop", they put out an article saying you can now adjust the position of the taskbar. Unreal.

modeless2• 4 months ago

No, they put out an article saying that not right now but later this month or maybe next month, if you switch to a beta release, then possibly you'll be able to adjust the position of the taskbar. But at least they have screenshots!

croisillon• 4 months ago

i sorely miss the taskbar repositioning on my work laptop but seeing them start their article with this is deeply unserious

shimman• 4 months ago

It's kinda hilarious that this is the result of the leadership at MSFT. Great example of why the current crop of corporate leadership needs to be taxed into oblivion and have their fiefdoms divided for the masses. Their reign needs to swiftly end.

xg15• 4 months ago

Microsoft's "Legs are coming to the Metaverse" moment...

deathanatos• 4 months ago

I left Windows long ago for Linux, but TFA leading with this had me questioning whether it was an April Fool's joke they let out early.

… this was a feature in Windows 95. I didn't even realize they'd removed it! Is the author too young to remember a time when the start bar was positionable…?

… to then follow "we listed to your feedback" with "more AI everywhere" … it's satire … right? Right?!

throw_winblows2• 4 months ago

It might sound like a joke but it's because they are re-adding a feature they had in Windows 95, why was it removed? One can only speculate but given the pervasiveness of webviews in places where there used to be plain (and performant) win32 stuff, one is led to the conclusion that the recently on-boarded interns simply can't write any C++.

jodrellblank4• 4 months ago

The more likely sounding conclusion is that everyone non-technical at Microsoft (sales, marketing, design, product management) uses macOS and assumes “look like macOS” is automatically good and they’ve never considered anything else.

There’s nothing about C++ which makes it “the only programming language which can draw things on the left”.

orthoxerox3• 4 months ago

Probably for the same reason why Google keeps removing customizable features from Chrome. The more of them you have, the harder it is to test the product due to all kinds of unforeseen interactions between them. Someone probably said, "there's 10'000 lines of 30-year-old window positioning code we have to maintain, let's replace them with 1'000 lines of fresh window positioning code, then we'll have more leeway to add more Copilot features into the Start menu".

1970-01-012• 4 months ago

MSFT @ 52-wk low. Quality go up as they cling to fundamentals?

baal80spam• 4 months ago

Please don't tell me you're falling for it?

Mesopropithecus• 4 months ago

Funny how Windows copies KDE (features and trajectories), almost 18 years after KDE 4.0/4.1. Also makes me feel old.

p_ing9• 4 months ago

If you were old, you’d know KDE copied the UX from Windows.

nickburns• 4 months ago

Lifelong user and 11-year Insider Program participant (i.e., since the literal start of the program).

Just this past January I implemented something on my workstation I should've done a long time ago: outbound filtering all network traffic via so-called 'Windows Defender Firewall with Advanced Security'. I've also skipped more Insider builds in the past two months than I have in the past 11 years.

The only thing keeping me around at this point is the migration overhead and (at least I tell myself) window 'snapping'.

timpera3• 4 months ago

Yeah, window snapping is great. I can't believe Apple still hasn't copied this feature.

tedd4u• 4 months ago

Just get Rectangle.

https://rectangleapp.com

https://www.tomsguide.com/how-to/use-this-awesome-trick-to-g...

philistine2• 4 months ago

Huh, they have! For the last two years!

https://www.macrumors.com/2024/06/12/macos-sequoia-window-ti...

richardlblair• 4 months ago

The first thing I did when a mac was handed to me by an employer was find an app for window snapping. It served me well.

I went back to windows, using WSL in 2017. In 2023 I got sick of how everything was getting progressively worse and switched to linux (which has window snapping). I'm never looking back.

scblock• 4 months ago

This is vague lip service with little substance, as far as I can tell. That is unsurprising consider it's from Microsoft and it's about Windows. It addresses (in cheap words) a few real pain points, but completely fails to address the dozens of either incredibly painful and stupid decisions MS has made.

On the subject of what they address, I have thoughts and many doubts.

Integrating AI where it’s most meaningful, with craft and focus

Just don't, bro. Don't do it. I don't want copilot icons in all the system apps. None.

More taskbar customization, including vertical and top positions

This feels like it's too little, too late. They redesigned the UI in yet another toolkit and in the process broke something had worked for decades. Perhaps they could add a 147th different UI toolkit with a different look instead, just to change things up.

Reducing disruption from Windows Updates

Would be welcome, but I have my doubts. MS has shown clearly they don't care.

Faster and more dependable File Explorer

See comment on task bar above.

More control over widgets and feed experiences

Get out of it. If I see one more stock ticker on a screen share from someone I know does NOT track the stock market I'll know you for the lying liars you are. Don't promise "more control" just stop being so invasive and annoying.

On the subjects they didn't address, I have feedback:

- Remove advertising from the start menu, the system, apps, everywhere. Just remove it forever.

- Remove invasive telemetry. Again, forever.

- Respect user choice. Stop trying to force things to open in Edge, ignoring my default browser. I am a Firefox/Zen user, keep a single (other) chromium-based browser around for sites that don't work right (another rant for another time), and try not to touch Edge if I can help it.

- Stop turning the bundled native apps into crappy web apps. "New Outlook" is a real tire fire.

- Make the default Edge page ANYTHING but the advertising and nasty "news" summary that shows up. Why not a simple search page, like when Google was new.

- Stop making start menu searches return web results instead of local apps

- Make start menu searching actually search in a useful way. Why does QGIS not show up when I type GIS? Because it doesn't start with Q? That's garbage. Make it work how users would expect it to work.

- Let people say no, fully and completely, to OneDrive. You can make adding it later easy at user discretion, but don't ask to set it up automatically. Don't use fear mongering like "your files are not backed up" to try to trick people into signing up for it.

- Local accounts should be easy, not a nasty workaround with a moving target for instructions.

dmfdmf• 4 months ago

As is tradition, HN has downvoted your legit comments to the twilight realm. I agree with everything you say. Onedrive should be flagged as a virus. Why do they get a pass for things any other app would be blocked for doing?

I think the real issue is that MS doesn't view Windows primarily as an OS that should be invisible, out of the way -- with minimal "innovation" geared to sell MS products. The problem is that MS views Windows as a sales/marketing channel for their ads/apps/services.

lemoncucumber• 4 months ago

Reminds me of when they finally apologized for the train wreck that was IE6 [1] and resumed Internet Explorer development in the 2000s after Firefox came along and started eating IE's market share.

In this case it's the MacBook Neo that's causing them to get off their butts and reinvest in the quality of their software after letting it stagnate for years, but the pattern is the same: rest on their monopolistic laurels until competition makes them feel threatened, then magically start caring about their users again all of a sudden.

[1] https://www.crn.com/news/channel-programs/183701230/gates-of...

protoster• 4 months ago

So why did they make taskbar bottom only in the first place? Too difficult to implement? Branding? No room for ads when it's vertical?

hbn3• 4 months ago

Someone correct me if I'm wrong cause I don't recall where I got this understanding from, but I believe Windows 11 still has the Windows 10 taskbar, but a startup process basically hides it and replaces it with a brand new one they made for Windows 11, built with web technologies. And they probably just never got around to figuring out how to put it somewhere else on the screen since they didn't inherit that behaviour from before.

dude2507112• 4 months ago

The assigned LLM junior could not prompt out the required <div>s.

contextfree• 4 months ago

It doesn't use web technologies

twobitshifter3• 4 months ago

Performance. They couldn't even handle seconds in the clock on win11 release.

nickorlow• 4 months ago

It cracks me up that the toggle for this advises you that it will cause your battery to die faster

layer83• 4 months ago

Because the Apple dock is bottom-only too, and the Microsoft UI designers are using Macs.

mike_hearn• 4 months ago

It's not though. You can pin it to the side.

onemoresoop2• 4 months ago

Talk is cheap, I want to see heads rolling, head of whoever was responsible with the all the disastrous windows 11 decisions. Till then I won't touch windows 11 and I'm not the only one.

AndroTux• 4 months ago

That'd be Nadella's head then. Not that I'd be complaining, though.

kmoser• 4 months ago

Disastrous decisions like ads, phoning home, and AI integration? I'm pretty sure MS brass considers those smart business decisions; even if those features fail, they will attempt to pivot them to something more successful rather than roll them back and admit defeat.

bloggie• 4 months ago

Well the guy who wrote the blog post seems to have been in charge of windows for the last 2 years so he’s still at it.

grujicd• 4 months ago

Let's start with those who thought it's a good idea to give power over UI decissions to designers using Macs.

tasuki2• 4 months ago

I have the opposite feelings: I'm rooting for them to continue and utterly destroy Windows for everyone.

zanellato19• 4 months ago

Executives always justify their own bizarre salary by saying that they make the decisions, but they never lose their position when those decisions are shit. They fire a bunch of developers and "refocus" like this article. The labor, who probably were against a bunch of this shit in the first place, take the blame.

dethswatch• 4 months ago

#noconfidence

dude2507112• 4 months ago

I was hoping for: "We understood the insanity and the insult of trying to replace native UI with cheap web stack imitation and it will never happen again".

layer83• 4 months ago

Well, the article does say:

“More fluid and responsive app interactions: Reducing interaction latency by moving core Windows experiences to the WinUI3 framework.

* Improving the shared UI infrastructure that Windows experiences rely on, reducing interaction latency and overhead at the platform level

* Faster responsiveness in core Windows experiences like the Start menu, by moving more experiences to WinUI3”

HelloUsername• 4 months ago

"A more relevant Recommended section in Start will surface apps and content you care about most, with clear controls to customize the experience or turn it off"

How about, turn it off by default?

ChicagoDave• 4 months ago

No one wants copilot. You can make it an app, but any OS level integration is a non-starter.

My next laptop will be a MacBook Pro.

My Surface Laptop 5 will be collecting dust in case I need it, but that’s highly unlikely.

nixpulvis5• 4 months ago

So Apple Intelligence doesn't bother you?

ebb_earl_co• 4 months ago

Is it incontrovertibly built in to macOS? I have an iPhone and have never enabled it or Siri, so maybe there is similar off switch for macOS.

packetlost2• 4 months ago

Apple Intelligence has a global off button that actually works. It's unobtrusive anyways. Copilot on the other hand...

threetonesun2• 4 months ago

Apple Intelligence is basically unseen in day to day use.

jimbokun3• 4 months ago

I use Macs for both work and personal use and I don't really notice Apple Intelligence.

Maybe it's doing stuff that doesn't rise to my level of attention, but it isn't actively annoying me.

bdangubic• 4 months ago

You like it you turn it On, you don’t you turn it Off

thih9• 4 months ago

FWIW, I clicked “skip” on a popup to set up apple intelligence and I didn’t see it again.

Of course this might change in future. And Mac OS has other popups where there is no “skip” and only “remind me later”.

sgt• 4 months ago

Have you even tried it? I'm a Mac user for 20+ years and I'm running Tahoe. Not once have I ever thought about Apple Intelligence. I don't even notice it. I think you have to switch it on.

malux85• 4 months ago

I use apple products daily and apple intelligence has never interrupted me. I don't even know what it is. So, no.

thiht• 4 months ago

I don’t think I’ve ever even noticed Siri/Apple intelligence on macOS. I’ve disabled it somehow (probably at install) and have not heard about it since

slopinthebag2• 4 months ago

Why would Apple Intelligence bother them? It's very unobtrusive and actually useful when it's visible. I literally don't notice it except when it's helpful.

hsbauauvhabzb3• 4 months ago

Or onedrive integrations and constant ‘backup your computer now’ popups which are _advertisements_ for onedrive, or Netflix, Spotify, or LinkedIn pre-installed and difficult to remove, or all of the above reinstalling during windows updates.

In fact, basically any feature added since Windows 10 is probably unwanted.

pianoben• 4 months ago

As if Apple doesn't berate you with unskippable notifications to sign up for iCloud, buy more space, etc etc?

BoredPositron3• 4 months ago

You know maybe OneDrive wouldn't suck as much if it was a native app and not qt.

bigyabai10• 4 months ago

I don't think macOS will liberate you from OS-level integration with AI. If you really cannot tolerate built-in AI, Linux and the BSDs are your only choice.

kriz92• 4 months ago

As a long time windows user I have no regrets making the switch. If it wouldn't be for the games I would not touch windows at all.

dbalatero2• 4 months ago

I've gone fully to Linux and all my games surprisingly run. I was ready to ditch some but I even got Blizzard stuff working which was my main concern.

redwall_hp• 4 months ago

I switched to Mac around Vista and never looked back. For games, enlightenment is realizing the PC gaming tribalism is dumb and PlayStations are actually really nice. It's an appliance that plays games without giving you trouble, in a comfortable place instead of encouraging you to spend even more time at a desk.

SunshineTheCat• 4 months ago

Yea, I've replaced Windows with Ubuntu on my pc and have just ordered an M5 Macbook Air.

Sure both have their quirks, but it's just wild how much Windows goes out of its way to be annoying. From a billion startup notifications to basic UI stuff to copilot and the list goes on.

Someone12345• 4 months ago

I just don't think people like having something shoved down their throats. The dedicated Copilot button on keyboards and adding Copilot shortcuts all over the OS (and automatic popups/ads) was far too far.

I think OS level integrations that are opt-in, not opt-out, may even be popular. But they have to be done carefully and tastefully.

jacquesm3• 4 months ago

I have the same feeling about any kind of integration. We're moving away from Google because we simply do not want to have this kind of forced relationship with products and/or services. It either fits and we'll pick it or it does not and then we don't. We won't pay for things we do not intend to use. And we don't want exposure to products that may constitute a security or a privacy risk.

aucisson_masque5• 4 months ago

What about office 365 that became Microsoft copilot 365 ? Talk about shoving copilot down the throat lol.

ponector• 4 months ago

Depends on who is shoving it. If Apple - people will happily eat everything, but not from Microsoft.

esalman• 4 months ago

Around new years my company had to replace my windows laptop because windows update has been broken for a few months on my machine. They had a replacement windows laptop ready but I asked them to provide a MacBook instead. This is first time in my two decades of career that I specifically asked for a MacBook.

Funnily enough, there's a bug that's affecting all MacBook users in my company (does not wake after lid down overnight). Apparently the culprit is windows defender installed in the MacBooks. Corporate, you know...

tonymet3• 4 months ago

If integrated properly, something akin to copilot generating Mac shortcuts, with close supervision, copilot could be extremely powerful on the desktop. Now that Apple has licensed Gemini, I would expect that to come soon.

Gen AI has even more power at task generation than at content generation. Imagine running Photoshop or Final Cut Pro via prompts. People seem squeamish because so far the Copilot entrypoints have been encouraging tacky text & image content generation, like Clippy. But imo that’s the weakest and most sensitive application.

V1 is often not very good, for any new application.

Macha2• 4 months ago

Microsoft directors want Copilot so they can make the case to executive leadership that they're aligned with that vision. It's why even in this announcement, the admission that they've maybe taken the whole AI OS thing a bit too far is phrased positively for AI with "Integrating AI where it’s most meaningful, with craft and focus", so the skim reading exec or financial journalist can read it as "good, Windows is still integrating AI"

quantified• 4 months ago

Integrating ~Spyglass~ Internet Explorer into the OS was a dumb stunt, very costly in terms of security. This will be worse.

anonymars10• 4 months ago

The funny thing is there's plenty of things I think to myself, it would be nice if AI could do this, but instead it's all top-down "this is what we think you should need"

No, I don't need you to summarize a two sentence email. How about I move emails to folders and you start to learn the patterns? Or which alert emails I want to ignore? Or who asked me something last week and I forgot to respond? Or which emails I should look at first after a vacation? Etc.

projektfu• 4 months ago

"Hi, I'm Copilot! I can do lots of things. Do you want me to make interpretive art from your TPS report? How about writing a thousand meaningless words in a style you wouldn't be caught dead using? I can also make fake pictures of your company Initech where your logo says Imglarb!"

"Can you help me reorganize my files?"

"Lol, no."

xnx6• 4 months ago

Clawbots show there's big benefit to OS level AI. The current/old form of Copilot wasn't right, but someone will figure it out.

bobmcnamara• 4 months ago

Is this April fools?

The fix is upside down UI?

xpe2• 4 months ago

If Bill is reading this: Another way to commit to quality would be (a) fund a $200M+ open source foundation to migrate/port/rewrite all of Windows (drivers, utilities, applications) to Linux; (b) give the foundation full IP rights to do so; (c) put all Microsoft Windows employees on the effort too.

the_pwner2242• 4 months ago

Bill definitely wouldn't approve of the current Windows quality. This email by him (2003) is very interesting. It looks like he was powerless to stop the degradation.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080626154537/http://blog.seatt...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=227045

krashidov• 4 months ago

Do they still serve ads when you click the Start button?

lithos• 4 months ago

They serve ads in notifications. Of course start still has them. (Work computer can't go to Linux, so stuck witnessing the mess)

iknowstuff4• 4 months ago

Oh, someone's feeling the heat of MacBook Neo and getting pressured by their hardware partners.

More taskbar customization, including vertical and top positions:

Pfft. Still slow, react-based, and ad-riddled

reducing unnecessary Copilot entry points, starting with apps like Snipping Tool, Photos, Widgets and Notepad.

Must have failed to meet the metrics goals

Reducing disruption from Windows Updates

You can bet they will still flash the screen take-over riddled with all the dark patterns in the world to get you to upload all your files to their cloud "for backup"

Faster and more dependable File Explorer [..] quicker launch experience:

Oh, the preloading of explorer into ram before it's launched? Lmao. Entirely embarassed by File Pilot https://filepilot.tech

gtfo.

ThePowerOfFuet• 4 months ago

Our commitment to Windows quality

LMAO

userbinator3• 4 months ago

That was my reaction too. "What quality?"

timpera3• 4 months ago

This is awesome! Windows 11 is the best OS I've ever used, and it's great to see them finally fixing these obvious pain points.

flenserboy• 4 months ago

the plan should be simple:

fire most of your leads & new programmers.

hire back anyone willing to come back with competence.

return to the Windows 10 LTSC codebase.

try again.

zsoltkacsandi• 4 months ago

So now that Apple released Macbook Neo, Microsoft has started to care about Windows quality after a decade?

dainiusse• 4 months ago

Lol

natas4• 4 months ago

we've heard that before.

himata41133• 4 months ago

I didn't switch to linux because windows was bad. I was running LTSC IoT Enterprise and selectively ran scripts from AtlasOS.

What finally pushed me to linux was because specifically in my narrow usecases it's just plain better, but if we were to completely ignore that, even if linux was worse, I just don't want to support evil companies anymore.

Now I'll admit that this is what AI would say, but it's not always about what is better, it's about sending a message, a message that microsoft appears to have heard loud and clear, however, we will have to see if this is just PR or not.

Intermernet4• 4 months ago

I dual boot LTSC and Fedora. I find myself using fedora more and more, but I need Windows for a couple of apps that don't play nicely with Wine/Proton (Ableton Live 12 mainly).

himata41133• 4 months ago

I recommend using one of those windows in a vm containers that just stream the application over rdp/x11/vnc. It looks like a native app depending on your desktop.

gred• 4 months ago

Three years too late, in my case. I've moved on.

_-_-__-_-_-• 4 months ago

So, you're giving us back features that we've had since Windows 95, but shittier?

natas4• 4 months ago

I recently had dinner in Bellevue with an individual who holds a relatively senior position within Microsoft’s executive leadership. During our conversation, she emphasized repeatedly that Microsoft does not primarily view its offerings as consumer products. According to her, the company’s leadership is strongly focused on B2B strategy, with revenue growth driven mainly by Azure, AI, and enterprise solutions. Her perspective was that consumer-facing products are not the primary revenue drivers and, therefore, are not central to executive priorities. While this may not be surprising to some, what stood out to me was how emphatically she underscored that the company’s strategic focus is squarely on enterprise customers rather than end users.

That said, this business model has historically proven effective for companies such as IBM. Microsoft allocates its resources toward segments that offer meaningful revenue growth.

hyperhello3• 4 months ago

I recently saw this comment. You made it a few weeks ago, copy and paste identical.

mholm• 4 months ago

Not OP, but I've got a friend of a friend in the Windows org that backs this up. Most engineers are teamed up by manufacturers. HP team, Lenovo team, etc. These are the primary drivers of feature development. If it won't sell grandma another $500 HP laptop, they're not interested.

itsfine2• 4 months ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47223342

xbar2• 4 months ago

I noticed that, too. However, I will say that having a couple weeks to watch Microsoft through the lens of the original post, I am inclined to adopt it as my current model for Microsoft's actual agenda.

As a result, I do not currently think that Microsoft is consumer-oriented. They have reinforced my opinion by doing anti-consumer changes in XBOX and then saying that they were pro-gamer. Seems like a pattern.

Maybe they will prove me wrong; I am sun-setting my final host that's running their software soon.

natas4• 4 months ago

I’ve included this here because it’s highly relevant to the discussion. That said, anything not closely tied to revenue will not be prioritized, which limits the impact of this microsoft post.

naikrovek2• 4 months ago

This is a fantastic reason to ditch Windows.

Windows used to be built for the user. Now, Microsoft builds it for themselves, as a way to help hardware partners sell hardware which includes a windows license.

So if Microsoft makes Windows for their own benefit, and not for the users benefit, I see no reason to use it at all. I don’t like games that much.

MacOS has gone downhill in a hurry but it’s still very good. Far better than Windows for me in every way.

reaperducer• 4 months ago

the company’s strategic focus is squarely on enterprise customers rather than end users

Yet it was the end users that forced enterprise to embrace the iPhone, not the other way around.

If her vision was the only driver, we'd still be rocking Blackberries.

10000truths• 4 months ago

Windows' value is as a funnel to the Microsoft platform. Starving that funnel of attention might not have an immediate effect, but it's a slow death spiral for the company because it cannibalizes their long-term mind share. The 10-year-olds today who grow up using Chromebooks in school, Macbooks in college, and iPhones/Android phones in their daily lives, will end up investing in Google and Apple products as a working adult at home or at the office. The one remaining moat that Windows has over other operating systems is games and old software, but with Valve hard at work to get Steam games working on Linux, this last bastion of Microsoft's consumer presence is under attack as well.

xp844• 4 months ago

The 10-year-olds today who grow up using Chromebooks in school, Macbooks in college, and iPhones/Android phones in their daily lives, will end up investing in Google and Apple products as a working adult at home or at the office.

1. That's not how businesses work - the 10-year-old will be 28 when he becomes an IT manager, and their 40yo boss will say "LOL no, learn to use Active Directory, we're not switching the entire company to Chromebooks/MacBook Neos because you 'grew up with' them." They will then adapt and learn to use what the business has.

2. Even assuming charitably that our 10yo will be founding a company one day and making all purchasing decisions for themselves, it's worth pointing out that neither Google nor especially Apple has shown even slight interest in delivering "Enterprise" anything. Even MDM Apple farms out to third parties, likewise they have no realistic counterpart for Active Directory, nor business email or collaboration (at least Google has that though). A startup may be all-Mac. Eventually if it's successful though, it'll be too big to use 'consumer' tools only.

The MacBook Neo is a cute PC for a student or a grandma or indeed any casual user. But despite it giving Apple (for the first time in Apple's existence) a price point for an entire computer that's under the amount where you'd be embarrassed to propose adopting it for your whole fleet... the hardware is but one part of a larger ecosystem, and Apple has demonstrated that they have no interest into selling into "The Enterprise" except for tiny niches (relative to the whole PC market) such as "web and mobile" software engineers, video editors, VFX shops etc.

throwaway5752• 4 months ago

This sounds exactly like how IBM sounded 50 years ago, before Microsoft disrupted them.

HaZeust3• 4 months ago

I've seen almost this exact comment before, have you shared this anecdote before?

Gigachad8• 4 months ago

This is actually true though. If you look at the revenue breakdown for Microsoft, windows is relatively small. It's Azure and Office that make up the lions share. Those are also the growth sectors. No matter how good you make Windows, you won't sell more licenses because everyone who wants a PC already has one. The only thing they need to do is prevent people moving to Mac, which historically hasn't been a huge risk.

rsanheim3• 4 months ago

This has been the case for 15-20 years at least. It’s only now that the horrible experience for regular users is so obvious compared to Linux becoming quite good, and Mac OS ranging from fine to meh.

The continual recall/ai push from Microsoft has not helped at all and is pretty gross. There is a way to do a “recall” style thing that some folks will really want if they can trust it. The msft approach has been the opposite of that.

wrs• 4 months ago

Just FYI, this is the same as when I left Microsoft 20 years ago.

jimbob45• 4 months ago

The whole point of Azure is that it ties into Windows processes neatly. If everyone stops using Windows, then there won’t be any real point to use Azure.

orthoxerox3• 4 months ago

But probably the biggest reason why Windows became the enterprise OS of choice was that every worker already learned how to use Windows on their home PC.

Now that people have phones as their principal computing devices and 90% of enterprise software runs in a browser the biggest thing helping Microsoft keep their share is AD (or whatever it's called these days, Copilot Entra ID 365?).

If someone disrupts their business by releasing a stripped-down OS that you don't even need GPOs to lock tight and a companion comprehensive IAM solution that works with iOS/Android as well, I can see Windows quickly degrading to become the "we keep one Windows PC around to control this widget from 2022" OS.

adamtaylor_13• 4 months ago

Too little too late. Linux can finally handle 90% of the gaming I want to do, and I'm willing to "suffer" not being able to play the other 10%.

Microsoft has proven itself the undisputed king of enshittification and a blog post will not change my mind on that.

Maybe my grandkids will give it a shot.

oofbey• 4 months ago

Windows touches more people’s lives than almost any technology on Earth.

Thankfully Ballmer failed and this isn’t even close to true. I, like a lot of highly technical professionals, have been Windows sober for many years now.

NKosmatos• 4 months ago

Is this a joke? Is this guy for real? And he calls himself a REAL engineer? He’s a manager doing damage control because all this time Microslop is greedy and has stopped caring about power users.

We’re not first time users, we don’t want Microsoft BOB as our UI, we don’t want ads and internet search “functionality” in our Start menu, we don’t want AI everywhere and we don’t want things hidden from us.

Make Windows 11 Pro for real pro users and 11 Home for new users. I hope a few people from MS are reading this, especially Mr Engineer.

I’m going to get downvoted for this, but I don’t care.

P.S. Yeah yeah guys, I know about Linux ;-)

mosura2• 4 months ago

The question here is what metric at Microsoft was bad enough for them to make a post like this?

greenchair• 4 months ago

the neobook methinks

mosura2• 4 months ago

Aha, yes the resulting OEM freakout would do it.

thefilmore• 4 months ago

https://x.com/tim_cook/status/2034979891926769864

xbar2• 4 months ago

I am not convinced that Microsoft is all of a sudden deciding to try again to become a consumer-oriented company based on something Pravan Davuluri says.

Seems more like FUD.

pixelpoet• 4 months ago

Too little, too late; I've already switched to Linux last November and never looked back.

Microsoft Copilot 365 Operating System App is just trash, plain and simple.

devinprater• 4 months ago

Integrating AI where it’s most meaningful, with craft and focus.

Spoken like a true AI.

SoKamil• 4 months ago

No ads. No upselling. Being able to completely ignore Microsoft account and install offline. No telemetry if that’s what user decides, no opt-in - single dialog during installation. No dark patterns. That’s what people want.

arikrahman• 4 months ago

Glad I made the move to Linux when I did. The taskbar being moveable would've passed as satire if it wasn't an offical post.

sergiotapia• 4 months ago

It's crazy how windows blew its dominance isn't it?

Even for gaming, the only reason why I would stick with windows is not an issue anymore. Thanks to Steam gaming just works on Linux. I'm using Omarchy and it's very easy.

I can't see ever going back to windows personally.

AJRF• 4 months ago

It's like watching someone wake up with a very bad hangover.

I am doing my part - I managed to get 6 people in my family and friend group off Windows onto Debian last year.

All positive feedback so far :).

Sure it's only a small victory - but a meaningful one to me.

surgical_fire• 4 months ago

Too late man. Linux made Windows obsolete. There's no going back for me.

dmos623• 4 months ago

I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers. In my eyes, it's fundamentally inferior to Linux, and its superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem, which is to say adoption, not some inherent trait. But then, since Linux adoption didn't meaningfully change in the last 20 years, I'm forced to confront the fact that either I'm wrong about its fundamentals, or the market is able to be irrational for longer than I find reasonable. Either way, Windows in my mind, represents a world I'd like to leave behind. Apple too, btw.

advael2• 4 months ago

As I tell all my friends panic-switching as their shit breaks, the best time to switch to linux was ten years ago. The second-best time is now

NetMageSCW4• 4 months ago

Or there’s never really been a good time to switch to Linux and now is the worst time.

odst• 4 months ago

I've been interested in moving my windows machine to Linux. Do you have any recommendations for distros to use? Last time I used Linux was Linux Mint. It was fine, but definitely felt less polished compared to Windows or Mac OS

Georgelemental2• 4 months ago

I have been very happy with Fedora, generally has up-to-date software and usually just works

xvedejas• 4 months ago

I've been using Linux for a long time, which might sound like I'm comfortable with all its rough edges, but it's honestly the opposite. Early on it was a new toy and I would accept issues as part of messing around with it. The past 10~15 years on the other hand, I've needed to get serious work done on it, and also use it for PC gaming, so I've gone the other way and focused on getting the most no-nonsense easy setup where I don't have to be tinkering with things all the time.

Based on that, I'd say: go for a popular distro with KDE. I'm sure there are other very polished options out there, but my recommendation is Kubuntu, even though it's not the one I use today (I use Arch mostly), as it's very simple to set up and well supported.

dmbche• 4 months ago

Manjaro is a very sane distro

DoctorDabadedoo2• 4 months ago

I would go either with Ubuntu or Fedora. The entry barrier is lower, they work well and shouldn't be too troublesome to install/maintain.

Then check whether you prefer Gnome or KDE as the looks and go with what you find cooler.

I've used Ubuntu most of my career and it's solid, these days I'm testing Fedora at home due to some nitpicks I have, but both are good options.

raw_anon_111127• 4 months ago

and its superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem

So the only superiority is that it runs the apps most people want to run?

And this is why geeks are always the “Less space than Nomad. No Wireless. Lame” types or the HN equivalent when talking about DropBox:

“For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software.”

dijit4• 4 months ago

Most people want a web browser.

Even Microsofts esteemed moat (office) is “Web only” on the lowest tier.

rfrey• 4 months ago

People loved the iPod. Users loved Dropbox. Nobody loves windows.

colordrops5• 4 months ago

What a horrible take, nothing but a tautology. It only runs the apps most people want to use because it's installed on so many computers, so developers target it. Linux can run anything Windows can. It's the same hardware, and if it was a much more popular desktop you bet your life that banks and streaming companies and AAA game developers would target linux as a supported platform. Has nothing to do with the quality of Windows, only the install base, which was the original point.

seba_dos14• 4 months ago

But it still was lame and ultimately made the world a worse place; and mounting remote storage is convenient and often preferable to something like Dropbox for several reasons. The fact that these aren't what matters for gaining wide popularity doesn't make such statements false.

chezelenkoooo• 4 months ago

I think you're vastly underestimating the technical illiteracy most people have with computers.

99% of people buy a desktop and don't even consider what the operating system is let alone think about changing it to something else. I would imagine they don't even know that a difference exists between operating systems.

theLiminator• 4 months ago

HN in general always does this. I got a lot of push back when I said that in general consumers don't care at all about open source, and the majority of them probably have no clue what it even means.

You can really sense the SF-centric bubble HN lives in.

operatingthetan• 4 months ago

I try new distros all the time and not a single one of them is 'GUI native' in the sense that you can do everything without touching a terminal. Some weird stuff always happens and you need to do a bunch of research to figure out how to fix it. The settings GUIs never have parity with the config files and it shows.

dingdingdang• 4 months ago

This point stands to be underlined! Even the least possible friction is more than people at large are willing to deal with, it's only if the system changes are pushed from the top (rumblings in the EU block at the mo) that we'll see casual consumption of Linux in more mainstream context. Having run Linux Mint across a 50+ coworker setting from a sysadmin perspective this is entirely doable, most will not even notice as long as Chrome is in place alongside with something office-like.

jaredsohn• 4 months ago

This xkcd is again relevant: https://xkcd.com/2501/

radlad3• 4 months ago

Do non-tech people even buy computers anymore? I imagine you basically have tech enthusiasts, gamers, and IT at offices buying desktop computers at this point.

colordrops5• 4 months ago

KDE is an experience that is not that different in quality from Windows. And if 75% of users used KDE as their desktop instead of Windows, I promise you that the rough edges would be worked out. It has nothing to do with Windows having better UX or quality.

JoelMcCracken• 4 months ago

This. While I was in college, I worked for Circuit City doing tech support (the "IQ Crew", heh, later called "firedog". Memories). People would call/come in and I would try to gather information about their setup.

It was extremely common to get Q/A like:

Me: Who is your internet serviced provider?

Them: I just click the 'e'.

Translation: They were telling me they use internet explorer.

Me: OK, bring in your computer and I can look at it.

Them: (arrives some time later, plops their CRT monitor on the table).

It was always like that. It took me a while to figure out how to ask the right questions to get the information I needed from them. TBH, this was most of the job.

Lammy4• 4 months ago

I like a lot of things about Windows and would consider myself technically literate. I also like Linux and especially FreeBSD, but Windows has Good Bones. Shame about all the spyware and the shitty modern UI though.

fgonzag4• 4 months ago

Change is hard.

My father is a 70-year-old software engineer who programs .NET Core in Notepad and builds using custom BAT files that build the project using csc (the outright compiler). He browses and copies files in the Windows Terminal. He is also accustomed to Linux since we deploy to it in our business, and he can do everything comfortably in the Linux terminal.

He trusts me almost blindly, yet I can’t convince him to swap to Linux even though every time he keeps fighting Windows. I'm actually fairly surprised since I'm certain he'd find himself at home almost immediately( he already is when managing servers)

I’m fairly sure it’s Notepad keeping him there, but I’ve told him there is also a Linux clone or Wine. I had been dabbling in Linux for 30 years, and it’s been about 7 or 8 years since I switched full-time and couldn’t be happier. But honestly, we're going to get there because it’s inevitable. It’s the only OS that's currently not wholly incentivized to "enshittify" itself and is actually improving at a pretty good pace due to Wayland's novelty fostering a plethora of alternative window managers.

QuercusMax2• 4 months ago

Notepad, of all things, is a CRAZY thing to be so tied to. It's not even a good editor! MS-DOS edit.com was honestly a much better experience.

Jblx23• 4 months ago

I'd love to hear more about his programming journey. vi? EMACS? Nope, notepad.exe.

GettingOld2• 4 months ago

I'm only a decade younger - I write .Net (C#) professionally - work it is Windows & Visual Studio (there is no way I'd want to mange any project that size without an IDE, tbh I much prefer using a IDE since I first got one in early 90s)

But at home - I use Jet Brains Rider (free non commercial) for C# .Net projects on Linux machines (Debian + KDE or Mint depending on machine)

I wonder if you mean Notepad++ not Notepad - I find KATE on KDE is good enough, when I just want to edit a file, but I've run Notepad++ under wine before.

yoyohello13• 4 months ago

I love Linux, I run it on all my computers and haven't run a proprietary OS at home since 2018. I've built up considerably instincts over the years to the point where I never have issues anymore. My Linux machines are far more stable than my Wife's Windows laptop at this point.

Having said that, I don't begrudge people from using Windows or Mac. As much as I'd like to believe otherwise, Linux has rough edges that most people really don't want to deal with. I'm willing to give Linux some grace because I believe in open source and want to support that world with my actions. But when someone complains about why their fingerprint reader doesn't work, all I can say is "yep, that can happen". I think the little niggles in Linux are worth it for having a free (as in freedom) OS, but as it turns out, most people don't value that.

glitchc2• 4 months ago

I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers. In my eyes, it's fundamentally inferior to Linux, and its superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem, which is to say adoption, not some inherent trait.

I'm not a Windows fanboy by any stretch, but it is a remarkably resilient OS. Case in point: I took the OS drive (SATA SSD) from my old workstation and installed it into a laptop. This was a Dell 7910, with a dual CPU Xeon configuration, NVidia graphics card and ECC memory. The laptop the drive was transplanted into was an old T520. The OS was Windows 10. Firing it up, I expected a kernel panic given how different the drivers would be between the two and resigned myself to a couple of hours using the Recovery partition. To my surprise, it booted up to the desktop and automatically started installing the missing drivers. In the meantime, I could actually use the darn thing.

In all my years of using Linux, I have yet to see that work without a hitch. A chroot to modify fstab is usually the starting point, then comes the inevitable blacklist and driver removal. Linux LiveCDs come close, but this was a full fledged Windows install with custom swap file configurations, 10G network card, etc.

Barring all this user-hostile behaviour from MS, at the OS level, Windows seems well-engineered.

radlad3• 4 months ago

Why would you have to modify fstab? Surely you are using UUID/PARTUUID these days.

I also wouldn't expect a kernel panic on Linux... Maybe no video though.

Macha2• 4 months ago

In all my years of using Linux, I have yet to see that work without a hitch.

For what it's worth, I used the same Arch install from 2014 to 2024, with it spending time in three desktops and a VM across that time.

subscribed7• 4 months ago

I just took out my SSD from the Intel 11th Gen Dell and put it into Framework 13 AMD Ryżem w/Radeon.

It powered on, I could decrypt my drive and login into GUI.

First i downloaded all the firmware (three commandline commands), then I rebooted it, then run dnf update.....

.... And that was it. Fedora.

lm284693• 4 months ago

I recently installed Fedora and holy shit it's still not production ready. During the initial setup you need to input your location, you have a choice between clicking on the map or typing the city, I don't remember which it is but one of them makes your system freeze, no way to get out other than a reboot. It's documented since Fedora 42, and was still there on Fedora 43

Every time my swap is full the entire system freezes for a good second, sometimes it stays stuck, no way out besides rebooting, I've never experienced that in any other OS ever

It's impossible to get more than a few days of uptimes, it's like the ram is never ever freed, last time I had to reboot my mac I had close to one year of uptime.

A friend sent me a png to print, every time I open it with the image viewer it uses 100% of my memory instantly (10+gb), causing the system to freeze. The image is 700kb and opens fine on gimp

I completely understand why people stick to the alternatives, it's way too easy to "hold it wrong" with Linux

maxrecursion• 4 months ago

I have been daily driving fedora on my laptop for over a year now and haven't ran into a single issue. Not saying you're lying, but if you are having that many serious problems it might be a hardware issue.

The OS is definitely stable and perfectly fine to use.

lwkl• 4 months ago

It's Fedora 43 and I ran into the exact same issue. The other issue I have is that I don't have any display output as soon as I install my graphics card drivers. So using Linux on my desktop is put on hold for now.

ziml772• 4 months ago

I recently installed Fedora with KDE and ran into behavior that would have confused me if it wasn't for the setup of my home. Because the problem I was having didn't manifest directly on my PC at all, but rather on my AV receiver! When I log in, the receiver turns on and sets its source to internet music. If my PC and receiver weren't close enough that I could hear the relays clicking, I'm not sure how long it would have taken me to connect the two!

And of course when I look up the problem, the threads I land on don't point me to a thing to toggle in the UI. No, instead one of them directs me to create a config file for pipewire while another says the remove a specific package entirely. And they're not presented as a set of clear steps to follow, so good luck to your average person trying to fix the problem for themselves.

vitorgrs2• 4 months ago

Try arch, it's RAM management it's way better. Use Endeavouros if you don't want to deal with the arch install.

I have the same experience on Fedora, and most distros. Arch is the only distro that it's 100% smooth for me.

OpenSuse comes second.

wao0uuno• 4 months ago

I've been using Fedora since version 36. It can become unresponsive when running out of RAM. True. Never had any of those problems. It literally just works. Would you mind uploading that png file so I can try it?

nomel5• 4 months ago

it's fundamentally inferior to Linux

The context here is the average user, so you need to consider if this they share this perspective of fundamentally inferiority that is so obvious to you.

Here's a litmus test: Put your non-programmer relative in front of each, have them do some common simple tasks, like print an email on their printer, and ask them.

You are *NOT* an average user.

edit: people are focusing on the printer too much. my point was some arbitrary task they would be common to an average user. OMMIT THE PRINTER. After they use their computer as they normally would for a week, what is it exactly that so clearly results in their perception of "obviously inferiority"? My claim is somewhere between nothing and the very first thing to go wrong.

QuercusMax2• 4 months ago

Setting up printers on Linux is way easier than windows. Usually you don't have to do anything at all special at all as long as it's a fairly well known manufacturer. ChromeOS is just linux after all, and it uses the exact same CUPS infra under the hood, and it works just fine.

On Windows you often have to download and install drivers, which is always a headache.

cwillu• 4 months ago

Sit a non-programmer relative in front of each, and have them plug in a printer. One of them will end up with malware and maybe be able to print something, the other will almost certainly not even notice that they didn't have to do anything to make the print item in gmail put words on paper.

ben-schaaf2• 4 months ago

Put your non-programmer relative in front of each, have them do some common simple tasks, like print an email on their printer, and ask them.

My grandma does this all the time from her Linux laptop. My grandpa needed help getting it to work the first time under Windows.

layer83• 4 months ago

There is a reason that this submission is currently on the top of the front page. There are enough “hackers” that still care about Windows, because it did a lot of things right.

kube-system2• 4 months ago

Normal people buy computers at a retail store and use it in the factory configuration indefinitely. They think about changing their OS in the same way you think about changing the type of hem stitching on your slacks.

nomel5• 4 months ago

They think about changing their OS in the same way you think about changing the type of hem stitching on your slacks.

This is just absolutely beautiful. My grandmother would often identify stitching on my slacks. I was, quite literally, blind to it!

applfanboysbgon5• 4 months ago

Windows is not technically inferior to Linux. To the extent it has problems, it is mainly because of top-down anti-user behaviour mandated from corporate. But anyone capable of using Linux is capable of hacking out that BS and getting a generally superior experience. I use both literally side-by-side, two laptops with a KVM switch, and I still greatly prefer Windows for many reasons.

Some reasons: Even as a low-level programmer fully capable of resolving problems, I want to spend my time working on my programs, not working on making my OS work, and Linux frequently demands that I spend hours chasing down issues. Windows does a better job of managing memory/swaps, at least out of the box. Windows has a stable userland with 30 years of backwards compatibility. Windows makes good use of both GUIs and CLIs, letting you choose whichever is faster for the task, while Linux distros and devs have some kind of bizarre ideological purity culture and generally refuse to make good GUIs. Windows has a built-in tool for easily making full system images while the system is running, without requiring the image destination be larger than the system drive including unused space. Windows developers are not so in love with dynamically linked system libraries that dependency management becomes a pain in the ass. Windows generally has a polished UX with a lot fewer papercuts.

chistev• 4 months ago

What about Macs, you use those?

rolandhvar• 4 months ago

+1 on the UI thing.

I don't know what it is, but UI on Linux always feels too disjoint from the rest of the system.

It's a bit like how Windows 3.11 was just UI-on-DOS. I get the same feeling.

Don't get me wrong - I love Linux for all its CLI use but for some reason I've never been able to primary drive it without going insane after a week.

Windows just seems to feel more put-together and I guess that's because the kernel probably has hacks to support Office, and Explorer probably has hacks to support the kernel, etc.

The only other system I've felt this level of unity in is FreeBSD with its userland+kernel harmony.

Maybe I need to try a Linux desktop again as I haven't done it in ~10y but the other comment here about Fedora not feeling production ready doesn't inspire much hope...

Any ideas?

fsloth7• 4 months ago

Exactly.

I want to have a computer with stable vendor supported OS so _I can do my stuff_ not tweak some os level configs.

I _don’t_ want to spend my time playing an os systems programmer.

OS is a _component_. Like the wifi driver. I think it’s great some people love developing wifi drivers but personally I just want network that-just-works because there are billion other cool things you can do with a computer.

Similarly I want an OS that just works! Without asking me to do a anything! Because _i don’t really care_. (I mean i care it works but i expect the engineers actually developing an os offering to have a far better idea than myself what is a good stable default config for the system)

anal_reactor• 4 months ago

Linux just isn't friendly to newcomers.

1. Lots of rough edges "yeah it almost works if you tweak it a little" yeah thank you but no.

2. CLI is better for doing the thing you want, but GUI is better for discovering what options you have in the first place. The fact that GUI is an afterthought on Linux says a lot.

pdonis4• 4 months ago

anyone capable of using Linux is capable of hacking out that BS and getting a generally superior experience.

MS has made hacking out the BS harder and harder with each new version of Windows. Back in the Windows XP days, yes, I could avoid a lot of the BS on my home Windows computer (although I still had to deal with it at work because work computers are usually locked down so employees don't even have admin rights to them--if I have an issue with my work computer I have to put in a support ticket to the IT department). But even then there was enough friction on my Windows home computer to make me start using Linux at home. For a few years I was running both OSs at home, but even that got to be too difficult, and I simply stopped using the Windows computer at home, at least for my own use (see below). I've never looked back.

I do still have one Windows laptop at home, because some of the Python programs I write (I write them on the Linux computer) have to run on Windows, so I have to have a way of testing them. Even that is clunky compared to how easy it is to do things on my Linux computers. That laptop runs Windows 10, and if I am ever forced to upgrade it to Windows 11, I will probably just stop testing my programs on Windows (fortunately my livelihood does not depend on being able to do that), because Windows 11 is a nonstarter for me; the BS level has just gotten too high.

Linux frequently demands that I spend hours chasing down issues.

As someone who has been running Linux at home for well over twenty years now, this has not been my experience. Back when I still had Windows computers at home, I spent more time dealing with issues with them than I have spent dealing with issues with my Linux computers at home.

I would make similar comments about the rest of your post.

ufmace4• 4 months ago

I used to argue in favor of Windows with basically the same argument. But honestly, using Windows nowadays seems to require even more hacking than Linux. Particularly if you don't have the newest hardware made to Microsoft's standards. Or don't want to deal with regular full-screen ads to update to Windows 11, or don't want Copilot jammed into every app.

I installed Linux instead, Fedora specifically, and everything just worked. It actually cleared up some weird hardware issues I had on Windows that I could never manage to track down. I'm pretty sure I didn't need to do any CLI or config file tinkering for anything that wasn't getting an actual CLI app I wanted to use running. Beats the dozens of different registry hacks and powershell scripts downloaded off random Github repos people kept telling me I needed to do to make Windows 11 work and not be too annoying.

zem3• 4 months ago

I miss win2k personally. the UI was decent, and I was able to install enough oss on it that it felt like I could do most of the things I did with linux, but with good font rendering. there were also, to my surprise, a couple of apps (winmerge and proxomitron) that felt like they should totally have been linux apps, but for which I have yet to see anything as good over on the linux side.

nout6• 4 months ago

I think there are 3 major points that made Linux much more viable option in the last 2-3 years.

1) Somehow both GNOME and KDE got much better in the last 2 years. It's very smooth and polished experience that I now prefer to both MacOS and Windows. I only need to install 1 or 2 extensions and it's good to go for me.

2) AI! It's orders of magnitudes easier to fix any Linux issue now compared to 3 years ago. The issues that would take a whole afternoon of fighting are now just a couple back-and-forths with the LLM like ChatGPT or Gemini.

3) Valve and SteamOS. The large and mostly successful push by Valve to make Linux be the platform for gaming has cleared many Linux issues and hurdles on the way. I think this will have ripple effects in the industry. My prediction is that thanks to Valve and SteamOS we will see a viable, widely used Linux based phone in the next 3 years.

riedel• 4 months ago

I am using Windows now for about 20 years after being a FreeBSD user. I switched to Linux actually to be able to interact with my work environment which was using Windows tools (both office but also embedded development tools at the time) and I think virtualization/emulation was a lot easier. After bricking my laptop multiple times while traveling, because I always feeled inclined to fiddle with everything in my OS even during meetings. Linux was the perfect distraction (also me having latent ADHD). I eventually switched to windows for my laptop, when I needed to focus on productivity. What was meant to be temporary was permanent. I actually have stayed a console user and still use a lot of cygwin, using also the posix compat stuff earlier and now using WSL. Lately I even learned to like Powershell a bit. Only the latest annoyance with trying to force me into the Microsoft cloud and the temporarily very instable UI (taskbar hangs with not updating clock made me miss meetings) makes me think about switching to a free OS again seriously.

baq3• 4 months ago

the swap and vm tuning required on Linux to make it work even somewhat reasonably compared to Windows or macOS is batshit insane - or brain dead to quote Linus. you shouldn't need to do any of it and yet if you don't you risk hard locking your system when you run out of RAM - or even just write a lot to a disk - with zero warning.

neuropacabra2• 4 months ago

I hear you, me personally I only use Fedora when it comes to Linux. It is easy to install, has everything I need. I keep everything default - maybe change wallpaper and install my apps and IDE. That is it. From this standpoint it is MUCH better than a Windows box for games, which always has some ads, long update, sometimes it breaks, a lot software is actually writing their config in "My Documents" folder which bugs me a lot AND I do not have to have Microsoft account (actually I don't need any account on that matter) to create a local account on my own computer. So yes, I would agree with inferiority argument almost completely. If Linux got a bit mainstream, the ecosystem and apps would follow very quickly I am sure. But Microsoft is trying hard to people try out Linux (which is good btw) so let's see. Myself, I am off to Fedora even for the games, I am done with Copilot and inability to have offline account.

everdrive3• 4 months ago

Windows does a better job of managing memory/swaps

Not sure I can buy that one

GTP8• 4 months ago

Linux frequently demands that I spend hours chasing down issues

This is one of the points where people have vastly different experiences. I'm one of those that has fewer issues with Linux, and I definitely don't spend hours fixing problems. And this despite the fact that I use Arch, which is supposed to be an unstable distro. Why is that different users report so different experiences I don't know. I think that this might be partly due to perception: we tend to forgive more the OS we like. But your case doesn't seem to be just about perception. So I wonder how much the hardware could play a role here. I think Linux has quite good hardware support nowadays, but maybe I was just lucky so far.

VerifiedReports7• 4 months ago

Windows USED to have a polished UX. Is it still better than most Linux distros? Maybe.

But it has regressed so far from where it was 25 (or more) years ago that every day I'm still infuriated and depressed that I've had to return to it for work. The idiotic UI blunders alone must waste hours of my life per week.

Aside from the absolutely baffling functionality removals, there are the hateful petty ones. Great example: the removal of Remote Desktop. I erred in getting my parents Windows laptops, thinking they'd benefit from the familiarity. NOPE. And when they encounter some defective bullshit that stops them from doing what they're trying to do, they call me for help but I can't log in from 2400 miles away because MICROSOFT REMOVED THAT ABILITY. Disgraceful.

Nifty3929• 4 months ago

Me too! I daily-drive Windows as my personal, Mac for work stuff, and Linux for all server-like activity. And I have been for 20 years.

wltr2• 4 months ago

It’s really unclear whether you have any Linux experience. Because it feels like someone who knows Windows very well, and spent some time with Linux here and there.

gspetr• 4 months ago

anyone capable of using Linux is capable of hacking out that BS and getting a generally superior experience.

Go ahead, try to delete the useless Microsoft Edge browser if you're not in a select few EU countries.

In my experience, you can't do it cleanly. Asking LLMs will tell you the following:

1)Modify a certain registry key to enable deletion. Which I did, but the only thing that accomplished is un-gray the delete button in the Control Panel. Once you press it nothing happens.

2)Windows will eventually reinstall Edge. So you're basically screwed.

observationist2• 4 months ago

It's pure irrationality.

The only winning move is not to play - leave behind all the Windows and Apples garbage, and life gets remarkably better. I'm almost 6 months in switching from Windows to Linux and it's so awesome that my computer doesn't fight me anymore. I've done 10% of the troubleshooting under Linux that I had to do under Windows, and that was just early on; once things work, they stay working, and there's no sense of dread about what was going to break next after every patch Tuesday.

nomel5• 4 months ago

It's pure irrationality.

For the masses, it's pure practicality.

My mother calls up geeksquad when she has a problem with windows. Who do you call when you have a problem with debian or ubuntu or arch setup to use kde or gnome or xfc using wayland or x11 with systemd or launchd or ...

When her printer dies, does she go to the store and buy a new one, or does she get online to research what's compatible with her distro?

The expertise required to cover the surface area known as "linux on the desktop" is going to make that a much more expensive call, and a "i can't help you with that" from anywhere she can buy a printer in person.

Jblx23• 4 months ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47448328

LambdaComplex2• 4 months ago

Enterprises love Windows for the ability to centrally manage an entire fleet's configuration using Active Directory. Is there anything for Linux that comes close to that?

kuerbel• 4 months ago

Univention Corporate Server.

esseph5• 4 months ago

Ansible is what gets used for large Linux fleets for config management. It's not a 1:1 analog.

malfist4• 4 months ago

If my middle monitor didn't require a screen resolution change and revert to not be black after every boot or wake I'd use Linux all the time, but right now I can't make it work without a big hassle and believe me, I tried

dddddaviddddd• 4 months ago

When I had a similar issue on FreeBSD, I wrote some automatic pre- and post-suspend scripts (audio interface could cause full system crash going into suspend unless correctly managed beforehand). I’m sure you could do something similar on Linux.

fsloth7• 4 months ago

Ok.

Look.

I guess we all care about software business here.

And computer? It’s what consumers buy from store. Preferably in cybermonday or similar sale.

To run the software they ran on their previous computer.

They hope slightly faster. But honestly? They couldnt tell. Anyway the new computer is shinier.

OS? What’s that? (They honestly could not care less)

They dont buy apple for the os. They buy it for the brand.

inferniac• 4 months ago

"it's fundamentally inferior to Linux"

I installed linux mint on a new drive in January

Firefox was tearing awfully on just scrolling

Surely I just need to install Nvidia drivers

Install drivers, but they dont work due to some secure boot interaction with driver signing, that made me jump through quite a few hoops (thx to AI for walking me through it fairly well)

I'm sorry but an average person is not ready for this level of bs in their daily life

coreyburnsdev2• 4 months ago

Linux mint is not a good distro

thomond• 4 months ago

Part of the problem is the unpredictability. I have Nvidia too and I never had these problems.

subscribed7• 4 months ago

Well, on windows you just need to install Nvidia drivers so it stops crashing.

Mint might be the wrong choice. AFAIR on both Fedora and Ubuntu you can just add "nonfree" repositories (one checkmark) and you'll have proprietary, closed source binaries installed. At least this is how it worked kn my Linux laptops. I've never had to specifically install NVIDIA drivers and conversely, firmware upgrade was comes from the repository as well, so the installation is one commandline command and reboot, no obscure websites and weird firmware installers.

hatthew• 4 months ago

I am a very technical person, living on a computer for the majority of my life by this point, and I've spent at least 3000 hours on each of the big 3 OSes. I like windows, because 95% of things just work. I love the philosophy of linux, I love its technical specificity, I love that with enough effort it's possible to do almost anything on it. But at the end of the day the computer is a means to an end, and windows is the sweet spot between customizability and fiddliness that lets me focus on the end rather than the means.

e-dant• 4 months ago

Linux does not have a marketing team. Microsoft, Apple, Google do. The market is not efficient, it is gullible.

Arainach12• 4 months ago

Linux is a lot like Rick and Morty: I don't mind it, but I never want to be publicly associated with any of it's biggest fans.

santoshalper• 4 months ago

The ecosystem is the operating sytem.

chrysoprace• 4 months ago

You've gotta understand that most people outside of IT have very little to no computer literacy. They want something that just works, and Linux doesn't do that.

I've completely replaced Windows with Bazzite since November and it's been great for me, but it's not been without issues. Those issues are doable for me, but if I put Bazzite, Fedora, Linux Mint or any of the other beginner friendly distros on anybody else's PC they'll encounter a roadblock that they won't know how to resolve and that'll taint their Linux experience. Not to mention spotty hardware drivers (I've had several wifi drivers just stop working with an update, which is infuriating if you don't have a reliable wired connection), volunteer software for many configurations (OpenRGB doesn't support my motherboard), nVidia drivers and finding alternatives to software people know and use like Office and Photoshop.

These might not seem like a big deal, but they're dealbreakers for many and they'd rather put up with some dodgy window resize behaviour or their OS spying on them.

paxys3• 4 months ago

Windows is superior to Linux because people can actually use it. Everything else is secondary.

esseph5• 4 months ago

Largely because that's all they've experienced since it was probably the first computer OS they used throughout their entire life.

aduwah• 4 months ago

I had a chat with a Linux fan the other day. They said Linux is better because you can replace kernels easily to get driver support for something that wasn't working.

The problem is that I do not want to mess around to make things work. This is the power of Windows. Everything is built around it and it does not need or want you to keep hacking it.

Don't get me wrong I am working on Mac and my personal dev laptop is a Linux Mint, but sometimes it physically hurt to find something that sends me down a rabbit hole yet again on Linux. I just think the whole "you have to hack it because you can and otherwise you don't really own it" thing is a big hurdle on Linux that keeps mainstream peeps to stay away

Not sure if I made sense, but yeah basically in order to challenge Windows Linux would need to "just work" which is not the case right now (or ever was)

Waterluvian2• 4 months ago

It’s absolutely wild to me just how unaware tech people can be to how far from normal their experience is. Like this is just not even close to understanding what the game even is. We’d all be better off if we could somehow impart a lot more empathy for everyone to be even just aware of other life contexts.

esseph5• 4 months ago

just how unaware tech people can be to how far from normal their experience is

This is the same with expertise in any field that requires decades of education.

adamddev1• 4 months ago

Drivers for laptops. Do all the sound cards work flawlessly? Is the power usage/battery life similar? Sadly this is a big part of what holds it back.

pdonis4• 4 months ago

I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers.

The reason is simple: Microsoft has a lock on PCs used by corporate and government employees, so the vast majority of people who use computers at work use Windows computers. And so they naturally buy the same kind of computer for home that they're used to using at work. People like me, who run Linux at home even though I'm forced to use Windows at work, are outliers. And probably always will be. So the only way for the Linux desktop to really take off would be for large corporate customers and governments to switch from Windows to Linux. I would love it if that happened, but I'm not holding my breath.

natas4• 4 months ago

In business, the “best” solution doesn’t win—the one that aligns with incentives does. You can argue Linux is technically better than Windows, but Windows wins in many orgs because of familiarity, vendor support, existing tooling, and lower perceived risk. Adoption beats superiority.

bombcar8• 4 months ago

That's just a way of saying that "best" is a wider net than the "fans" want it to be.

IAmGraydon• 4 months ago

While Linux may seem like a better experience to the technically inclined, it is an utter mess to the average computer user. Linux is like a Lotus Elise: fast, bare bones, responsive, and a pure sports car for racecar drivers. They don't care that it has no air conditioning, no power windows, no power locks, no remote start, no padding on the seats. Put an average driver in it and they hate it. Then there's Windows, which is kind of like a Mercedes - a technical wonder, but over the years they've tacked so many things on it that now we have a cooled cup holder, 4D surround sound, and a god damn glowing logo on the front. But the core has been forgotten for all of the creature comforts. Put a racecar driver in this and they hate it. Put your average driver in it and they think it's the bees knees.

You, I, and everyone on HN are all racecar drivers. Our view of Windows is heavily skewed by our technical knowledge, but it is exactly what it's supposed to be - the operating system of the masses. The masses will never love Linux...it's very philosophy is antithetical to what makes a good operating system for the average user. The idea that Linux could ever take serious ground from Windows is never going to happen. It is purely wishful thinking, but it will always have its place in infrastructure and for geeks like you and I.

All of that said, for daily driving, I'll take the Mercedes.

tw061023• 4 months ago

Linux the kernel is fundamentally inferior to NT from 30 years ago, Linux the userspace is barely tolerable, Linux as an ecosystem is an amateur clownshow barely held together by corporate donations of drivers and absolute dedication of a handful of volunteers of wildly differing skill.

If your biggest innovation of a decade is a carbon copy of a feature introduced in NT 3.5 in 1994 AND THEN it turns out most serious people disable it because you cannot even copy a feature without introducing new vulnerabilities - that's a sign of quality.

dmos623• 4 months ago

I've only heard once or twice people talking highly of NT. Care to go into more depth?

5555624• 4 months ago

I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers.

It's the easiest route. On non-Apple computers, Windows is already installed. (It takes a bit of effort to buy a computer without an OS.) Microsoft makes it easy for a user to get Microsoft 365. With that, users have the computer they have at the office and are familiar with. Most are just surfing the web and writing an occasional letter, anyway. That doesn't include people who are perfectly fine with a Chromebook or just their phone.

Finding a Linux distribution, downloading it, putting it on a USB stick (or burning a disc), then installing it is not simple for most people. (Don't even ask them to verify the checksum.)

pacifika• 4 months ago

People just have disliked computing in general as a result of their Windows experience.

I’m not seeing any brick and mortar stores selling Linux laptops or any mindshare for any Linux brand. Maybe if Ubuntu started selling hardware in supermarkets Linux would have a chance of capturing people’s consciousness outside of the power user / professional circles. But they’re years too late now.

WillAdams2• 4 months ago

It comes preinstalled on new hardware, and has drivers.

For folks who use odd-ball hardware, e.g., the new generation Wacom EMR stylus equipped Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360 I'm writing this out on (really, using a stylus to write this out) it's pretty much the only option, which I wish was not the case.

That said, I bought a pair of Raspberry Pi 5s a while back, and am hopeful that the Soulscircuit Pilet I backed on Kickstarter will work well w/ a Wacom One, and if it does so, I'll upgrade to a Movink 13 or something similar.

mvkel• 4 months ago

ecosystem

To call an ecosystem superficial evidence is puzzling to me. The ecosystem is -everything- for an operating system.

Developers, apps, distribution, users; all of it is ecosystem.

beloch• 4 months ago

1. It's not "fundamentally inferior". It's just, historically, focused on a different type of user. Linux is for people who want a lot of control and power but don't mind learning how to use a command line or config file. Windows is more focused on typical users who just want things to work with GUI config tools and still be somewhat flexible. You also need to keep in mind that many new users have grown up on iOS and it doesn't even occur to them that things can be customized in more than superficial ways.

2. Linux has, historically, been fundamentally inferior for some purposes. Lots of (sometimes very expensive) equipment has proprietary drivers that only run on windows. You'll find old versions of windows running hardware in labs all over the world. This is minor though, compared to the mainstream office and home user, as well as gamers. If a typical joe uses windows and MS office at work, its only natural to do the same thing at home. Why learn a new OS for your home computer if you're only using it a few hours a week? Gamers, of course, are still locked into Windows for some titles despite Steam's best efforts. Some gaming hardware still doesn't support Linux properly (I'm looking at you, Razer). Linux is getting really close to Windows for gaming though.

3. Windows was actually a pretty nice OS for a while, until the recent slide into Microslop silliness.

-----------

"Integrating AI where it’s most meaningful, with craft and focus: You will see us be more intentional about how and where Copilot integrates across Windows, focusing on experiences that are genuinely useful and well‑crafted. As part of this, we are reducing unnecessary Copilot entry points, starting with apps like Snipping Tool, Photos, Widgets and Notepad."

While mealy-mouthed at best, I take this as indicating MS has finally started paying attention to the growing backlash and is going to back off on trying to AI ALL THE THINGS. A lot of users simply don't need or want Copilot everywhere. Many users also now have a compelling alternative in Linux. Inertia keeps them with Windows, but a significant irritant could make them switch. If MS wants to keep those users, they need to stop pushing AI so hard and focus on keeping the rest of Windows in good shape.

UqWBcuFx6NV4r• 4 months ago

I’d suggest you get out of your echo chamber. If you can’t see why Linux doesn’t make mainstream appeal. For civilians, computers are hard enough to use without them being desktop Linux.

autoexec• 4 months ago

I'm forced to confront the fact that either I'm wrong about its fundamentals, or the market is able to be irrational for longer than I find reasonable. Either way, Windows in my mind, represents a world I'd like to leave behind. Apple too, btw.

I think that the market (though it is certainly irrational) is moving away from windows. It's very likely the reason why this post was written and they're now (4+ years after the release windows 11) addressing even the most basic complaints (like the taskbar). I have zero faith that the attitudes driving the fundamental problems that brought us to the point where MS has to be genuinely worried about the future of Window's market share have changed.

Microsoft still sees your computer as belonging to them. They still feel entitled to all of your data and the contents of your hard drive. They still want to use their OS as an ad platform. They're still deeply envious of Apple and want an app store with similar control over what you can and can't install on your computer.

Like you, they've lost me. The moment any meaningful amount of gaming was viable on linux they lost the only thing that could have kept me using Windows in any capacity (and even then my gaming PC would have been treated like a console. Almost zero personal info and mostly offline).

They fucked up badly and promises like "you can move your taskbar" or "we'll be less obnoxious with updates" is not going to being me back.

roarcher• 4 months ago

They fucked up badly and promises like "you can move your taskbar" or "we'll be less obnoxious with updates" is not going to being me back.

Especially considering you could move the taskbar until Windows 11 when they inexplicably killed it. It only took them 5 goddamn years to put it back.

To be fair, this does indeed demonstrate their "commitment to quality", just as they intended.

gonzalohm2• 4 months ago

It's like iOS. It's a closed ecosystem much like windows so to me android seems like the obvious choice. But that doesn't seem to be the case in the US. This is changing though, android is becoming very much like android

munificent• 4 months ago

You are underestimating the real fundamental value of "I can call my friend/family member and ask tech support questions and get help".

phendrenad2• 4 months ago

If you're having trouble confronting the facts, it might help to search up some of the criticisms people have of Linux, and - critically - ignore the replies to it. There's a psychological effect where if you don't understand where someone is coming from, if someone says "that's stupid" then it gives your mind license to conclude that the person you don't understand is just crazy. Staring into the abyss of the Linux criticisms long enough, and you'll start to see it from their perspective.

ubermonkey• 4 months ago

It's nice to think about a FOSS-first world, but what people want is turnkey computing. That's why Apple does well -- the happy path on the Mac, or in iOS, is very very smooth for both technical people and octogenarians.

The fun thing about the Mac is that technical people can do more or less whatever they want, while the out of the box experience is still super simple and easy for people who do not have a comfortable relationship with computing. This is a good thing.

Consider the easy integration you get with Apple headphones and Apple devices. Regular Bluetooth pairing is far more fiddly and annoying.

Consider how you'd set up easy use of a password manager across devices. This is "it just works" territory with the Apple ecosystem. It's awkward and weird on Windows. It's a giant DIY project on Linux.

This is why Apple succeeds. They think about end user experience far more than Microsoft does. Linux, as a non-product (this is not a ding), doesn't "think" about this at all, for the most part.

I DO think it's pretty obvious that desktop Linux would be much farther along had Apple not pivoted to a FreeBSD based OS a quarter century ago. That brought a lot of very technical people onto the platfor that would've otherwise gone to Linux. There was a time when any given tech conf was a sea of illuminated Apples on the backs of laptop screens, because getting your average LAMP stack running was trivial on a Mac and painful on Windows. It was an opportunity for Microsoft, but Ballmer couldn't see it, and so here we are.

cryptoegorophy• 4 months ago

Why Apple?

dmos623• 4 months ago

Walled garden, closed-source, user-hostility. That's my main gripe with Windows too. It's a bit lazy to lump them together, because when you get into the weeds they act differently, but both fall way below my standards of what I want my tools to be like. With Apple, the anti-ownership, anti-repair lobbying stands out to me as especially bad. Apple's walled garden is especially strong, and the hardware exclusivity is 1950s in the worst way. It's like hardware standartization never happened. Hate to think if every PC vendor was like this.

kenjackson• 4 months ago

I’ve read your posts for the past 25 years - originally on slashdot (not literally you). As you proposed, I think you’re fundamentally wrong. I got my MIL a Chromebook and it was probably the single worst technical support decision I ever made. For some, it will always be the year of Linux on the desktop. But rather the reality is the desktop will run its course before Linux has a foothold there.

wraptile• 4 months ago

Microsoft hasn't been able to get marketplace in any other consumer product line. This seems pretty clear that Windows team is mostly just coasting on the fact that Windows is being forced upon people and frankly most people don't even understand what's an operating system so this strategy has been and will continue working well.

ekianjo• 4 months ago

You have a market that's locked by Microsoft working with OEMs and Microsoft spraying money around to ensure that nobody ever seriously consider switching. Add to that that Windows is used as a surveillance tool by the three letter agencies and you have the perfect storm for things not to change.

eviks3• 4 months ago

superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem, not some inherent trait

But since real users live at the level of the ecosystem, what's hard about understanding that they can't replace a lacking ecosystem with "inherent traits"?

csomar2• 4 months ago

Many people have processes on these machines that would be too costly, disruptive and with questionable ROI to migrate. They'll stay there until it's no longer an option.

thunfischtoast2• 4 months ago

I use both, Windows 11 and Pop! OS (which is Ubuntu, with Cosmic).

Pop! OS is definitely not ready for the average user in my opinion. Some common work-related apps I need like Citrix Workspace straight up don't work. Audio + Camera randomly give out in the middle of video conferences, only fixable by a complete reboot. Some things are only fixable in the terminal.

I use it as much as I can, but there is still work to be done. I agree that Windows is on the wrong path.

Tomis022• 4 months ago

fundamentally inferior to Linux

The UX/UI of Windows 98 is far, far ahead of whatever Linux DWM we have today. It's nowhere near close. My KDE is usable but everything feels off, from icon shapes and sizes to mouse cursor icons, mouse cursor speed, the way settings are organised, almost everything. And it's not a matter of habit, as I've been on KDE for years, and I kept trying to make it work. Windows just clicks out of the box, it's more comfortable.

Microsoft, once upon a time, put an enormous amount of money into creating a user experience that makes sense for a maximum amount of people. Even though this experience suffered enormously over the last decade, it's still better than everything else, including OSX. And I'm not praising Microsoft, everyone else (including Canonical) is just that bad.

kayhantolga• 4 months ago

"What came through was the voice of people who care deeply about Windows and want it to be better."

I gave up a long time ago hoping Windows would get better. At this point, I just hope it does not get worse.

mkirsten• 4 months ago

Interesting headline. And I start reading as a MS skeptic. Maybe they finally got it? Maybe MS have realized why Windows really is so crappy. I read the first entry, bolded, in the bullet list. It reads “ More taskbar customization, including vertical and top positions”.

I press snooze and get on with my day

EastSmith• 4 months ago

I've used Windows since 3.11 and I am using macOS for 5+ years now for work (requirement).

Switched to Linux on my personal devices 2 years ago and using Ubuntu and PopOS! on two different laptops. I've had very small number of issues. Can't understand people moving to Mac - it is the same messed half backed OS as both Windows and Linux (flavors). With the llms these days, any linux issue is fixable within minutes.

With Linux at least I don't have to worry about privacy.

heap_perms• 4 months ago

Yes!

With the llms these days, any linux issue is fixable within minutes. I think this point is really it. What in the past needed a 40min google search to fix something, llms now fix it in seconds.

vadepaysa2• 4 months ago

File Explorer is one of the most used surfaces in Windows. Our first round of improvements will focus on a quicker launch experience, reduced flicker, smoother navigation and more reliable performance for everyday file tasks.

Really? it took "user feedback" for one of the world's best software companies to realize one of the most fundamental parts of the OS was broken?

I have been long on $MSFT for a while now, but my faith as an investor stands shook.

sota_pop• 4 months ago

An org Microsoft’s size doesn’t do ANYTHING without 2 or 3 focus groups and an executive retreat.

vadepaysa2• 4 months ago

haha, thats a good unsername.

zug_zug• 4 months ago

Whatever, I'm just counting the time until I can drop windows entirely... right now I just need it for gaming, but I'm thinking maybe Valve's OS will be the replacement

mattstir2• 4 months ago

I can't guarantee a great experience, but anecdotally my brother and I have had no issues in the last ~12 months playing all types of games on Linux. Only games which require kernel-level anti-cheat are unavailable. Otherwise, Proton and native clients (when available) have been rock solid, and I've been surprised that some games (like Minecraft) actually run much better than in Windows.

smartmic• 4 months ago

Interesting how often they use the word „craft“. For me, a sign that AI fatiguge is a real issue, not only among Windows users. Good, maybe a small, first step towards down-regulation of the hype.

Grimblewald• 4 months ago

This reads like the way they'll try to implement is

""" ok copilot, implement these changes, make no mistakes """

Having learned absolutely nothing from their existing sins.

jiggawatts6• 4 months ago

“Improved Feedback Hub” is a code for “The corner that we told the plebs to scream into was close enough to the executives that they could hear some of the angry swearing, so we moved everyone over to a padded room in the basement where they can’t bother anybody.”

deng• 4 months ago

If you want to know how serious to take this, just look at this gem:

Enhancing Search: [...] Clearer and more trustworthy results, with results from content on your device easy to understand and clearly distinct from web results

So yeah, you still get web results in your search bar, a feature absolutely zero people want and which is just there to fake Bing success, just with a little divider now next to the applications the search failed to find.

stevage2• 4 months ago

Not just me then? Those integrated search features have been around for so long, and always irritating. I use macOS. Same problem. Searching your computer or searching the web are fundamentally different tasks. I'm curious if anyone actually approaches them the same.

icedrift• 4 months ago

I don't like that default on mac either but in their defense it's super easy to customize. I turned off all but applications and my documents folder for spotlight search.

wnevets2• 4 months ago

Its one of the first things I turn off.

lloydatkinson3• 4 months ago

How? I feel like every time I do my ~1 yearly Windows reinstall I need to google it and then alter half a dozen registry keys and a bunch of group policy settings, and some of them are the "old" settings now replaced with something even more vaguely named (probably on purpose).

benced• 4 months ago

I think most computer users dislike this but I see a ton of normal folks do this, they don't have the same conceptual boundaries folks on this site do (myself included).

solid_fuel• 4 months ago

Yeah, but is that a good thing? I think the lack of those conceptual boundaries are exactly why computers are so difficult to learn for some people. Access to web services, and the services themselves, still aren’t reliable enough to support this idea of a completely transparent computer experience where you don’t need to know what machine a file is on.

xnx6• 4 months ago

It's crazy when the option to integrate Everything (https://www.voidtools.com/support/everything/) is right there.

lostmsu2• 4 months ago

To be fair Everything is heavy. 400MB on my current machine.

torben-friis• 4 months ago

Windows touches more people’s lives than almost any technology on Earth. Every day, we hear from the community about how you experience Windows. And over the past several months, the team and I have spent a great deal of time analyzing your feedback. What came through was the voice of people who care deeply about Windows and want it to be better.
Today, I’m sharing what we are doing in response.

Just these words are already off putting. The extremely careful wording to avoid anything minimally resembling recognizing an issue.

It's ok to say we fucked up. It's empowering. Not being able to do it is a huge red flag.

breve• 4 months ago

When the context menu in Windows 11 is aggressively worse than the context menu in Windows 10 I'm not sure what quality Microsoft is committed to.

rjh29• 4 months ago

Hiding most of the items by default and making it really hard to restore it! I had to try 3 different obscure methods to get the old context menu back.

Which just tells me what I already know - Windows is actively hostile to power users, and they should be on Linux. Leave Windows for the less technically confident who need that stuff hidden away.

hirako20002• 4 months ago

pause updates for longer when needed
all while reducing update noise with fewer automatic restarts and notifications.

Pause for longer.. why not just stop. And resume when wanted.

Fewer automatic restart. What about no automatic restart.

I couldn't read any further. Mind bended leadership to think this sort of wording after the obvious fiasco would make users hopeful.

I stopped using windows personally 15 years ago. My mental health improved right away. Forced to use Windows at work, I finally got liberated 4 years ago and my mental health got even better. I refuse since then employment forcing me to use this OS. It's a health hazard, always has been.

190n• 4 months ago

Later in the post they expand on that point:

More direct control over updates, including the ability to pause updates for as long as you need

So it does sound like you'll be able to pause updates forever and also therefore not automatically reboot.

sonofhans2• 4 months ago

“why not just stop”

Because most regular people will never choose to turn them back on, that’s why. We already know what the world looks like when millions of computers run an unsecured OS. Last I heard, a stock Windows 98 machine lasted 30 seconds online before being compromised. Automatic updates are good, and they’re here to stay.

b65e8bee43c2ed0• 4 months ago

next up: an automatic visit from your friendly neighborhood policemen to install a camera in every room of your home. we already know what the world looks like when millions of "adults" are allowed to "do whatever they want" in the privacy of their homes.

Spivak• 4 months ago

Looks like you'll be able to pause them indefinitely with the new update so we'll see if this prediction comes true. Most computers will spend their entire life never once exposed to the public internet, the firewall does still work even if a cafe is your threat vector, and browsers and AV definitions are still automatically updated so I'm siding with the doubters on this one.

user27222• 4 months ago

Actually it's the wrong question. Implement rebootless updates is the right ask. You'll have to reboot like once a month still but it's better than how it is now.

lldb• 4 months ago

Apple has, AFAICT, never required automatic updates. I just checked the iOS 26 settings, and sure enough, I have both download and install automatically turned off. So it is possible.

aucisson_masque5• 4 months ago

But what will happen to your computer once you connect it to internet ??? You will be infected if it doesn't get updated asap !!

No one should be able to have control over his computer.

gmueckl• 4 months ago

Well, if yo allow random users to just stop updates forever in a non-managed environment, then a good portion of them won't remember to reenable them. This would create new breeding grounds for security vulnerabilities. Remember Sasser and Blaster?

Average computer owners don't really care about their machines, let alone understand them. Computers are appliances to them like their washing machines and microwaves.

aucisson_masque5• 4 months ago

Agree, even if it reads like you are exaggerating it, I fully understand it.

I was forced to work on windows for years too, it's like working with a tool that's broken and repaired with duct tape. You can't stop thinking it's amateurish and this product should have perished a long time ago.

Switching everything to apple was like a breath of air, sadly it's starting to become bad. Every updates brought stuff that felt out of place but last one is complete nonsense..

And it's not like there is much competition, it's either'duct tape' windows, macos or 'broken' Linux.

hirako20002• 4 months ago

No exaggeration. I wasn't sure why mental health improved without any other major shift in my personal life. When windows entirely disappeared once I wasn't forced to use it at work, I could only conclude Windows was the culprit. Just looking at it when I run a VM for some experiment brings me anxiety. It's as if my brain worries I'm switching back.

There is the forced aspect, which alone is problematic. I can imagine that Linux forced upon millions of casual users would bring more clients to consult with a doctor if they were to use it personally, and 8h per day for a living.

What makes Windows particularly guilty, is that while lambda Linux users would get better at understanding how computer is work, the opposite is true on windows, it is dumbing down and obscuring how things work.

The growing number of invasive ads for other MS products and their partners.

The revamping of core OS navigation features, UX for things like launching apps, the fact that in Windows 10 (maybe first version of 11) a lookup for a local app would trigger a web search with a spinner indistinguishable from local search, followed by the display MSN news..

The forced reboot when you have 12 applications running a long task, and downloads that are at 80%, after a 4h long wait on a slow server that doesn't offer download management.

the regular blue screen to prompt you for privilege escalation permission even though you had just granted it 35 seconds ago for that same app, and about to see that inception blue screen again since the very same app will keep crashing until you figure out where the bugs lurk.

I literally call the compounded effects of these: mental health hazard.

chrisjj2• 4 months ago

why not just stop. And resume when wanted.

It resumes when wanted /by MS/ - to protect their brand from cyberattack.

The user preference is now secondary.

nu11ptr3• 4 months ago

fewer automatic restarts

No automatic restarts! I understand that in our security patching world that patching and restarting automatically is the default, fine, but there absolutely should be a dead simple way of disabling auto restarts in settings. I'm fine if it pesters me to restart or whatever, perhaps with growing alarm the longer I wait, but it should always be optional in the end. There are just no words for how bad it can be for mission critical workloads when your computer restarts without your consent. Please make disabling this simple.

kstrauser4• 4 months ago

I disagree, at least on end-user devices as opposed to servers.

If you make it possible to defer updates indefinitely, users will. Guaranteed. Doesn't matter how urgent or critical the update is, how bad the bug or vulnerability it patches is, how disastrous the consequences may be: they'll never, ever voluntarily apply them.

If you're running a server, and willing to accept the risk of deferral because 1) you're in a better position to assess the risk and apply compensating controls than a regular user is, and 2) you're OK accepting the personal risk of having to explain to your boss why you kept deferring the urgent patch until after it blew up in your face, then yes, you should have a control to delay or disable it.

But end users? No. I use to believe otherwise, but now I've seen far, far too many cases where people train themselves to click "Delay 1 day" without even consciously seeing the dialog.

JohnFen4• 4 months ago

The real sin is combining security updates with feature updates. An argument can be made for enforced security updates(1). There is no good argument for forcing feature updates.

Most security-only updates have a low risk of interfering with with the user or causing instability. Most feature updates have a high risk of doing so.

(1) Although I think there should be some way of disabling even those, even if that way is hard to find and/or cumbersome to keep the regular users away.

BlarfMcFlarf• 4 months ago

If it was kernel level only, maybe. But why does windows seem like it needs to restart after every little update?

nu11ptr3• 4 months ago

I disagree, at least on end-user devices as opposed to servers.

And who determines what is an "end-user device" vs a "server"?

If you're running a server, and willing to accept the risk of deferral because 1) you're in a better position to assess the risk and apply compensating controls than a regular user is, and 2) you're OK accepting the personal risk of having to explain to your boss why you kept deferring the urgent patch until after it blew up in your face, then yes, you should have a control to delay or disable it.

So you do want choice after all it seems. Who do you think should make this choice on risk vs. workload/criticality?

I would say you actually agree with me mostly based on your comments, but you have not clarified _who_ makes these choices. I'm saying as the consumer, _I_ should get to make that choice. In the enterprise, my admin will make that choice via group policy, but I do not want Microsoft determining what I'm allowed to do with my OS. They are of course free to keep doing that, but then I also have the right to keep not buying their products.

pndy4• 4 months ago

These automatic restarts are just the outcome of bigger problem with how Windows Update has been changed initially in W10. Namely the removal of selective updates installing and indirectly lack of QA, are the main sources of problems here.

Windows isn't MacOS that runs on set of verified configurations - it runs on variety of hardware with vendor drivers and other software. That combined may cause issues but so lack of testing - we know that Microsoft in its wisdom dismantled QA and replaced it with this prosthetics of enthusiasts community that all the time suggest "sfc /scannow". Now they put Charlie Bell in role of "engineering quality" position but I have no hope that something will change with a good outcome for users.

And users should be again allowed to avoid updates which were proven to cause issues - that's the fundamental need here. Deterring a scheduled action isn't enough.

Considering Windows behavior, all the telemetry that was smuggled to W7 in poorly described updates, I see how appealing is to Microsoft to use this big updates package format and add features, components which surely would be avoided by experienced users. Since W10 and maybe even partially during W7 they're fighting their users when it comes to control over operating system.

I'm on CachyOS now but I still get calls from friends who struggle with all this MS circus. Recently, this friend lost data to bitlocker encrypted machine because she didn't had backup keys. She's that kind of user that doesn't know what happens on the screen beside text processor and web browser - everything is a nuance that has to be quickly dealt with by "next next done" tactic. Should she be more patient and read what's being displayed on the screen - sure but I've told her that years ago.

Anyway, CachyOS: arch-update renders a popup in KDE about recommended restart, sometimes update process requires restarting services and users can select ones it needs or everything listed altogether. There's snapshots support for updates: https://wiki.cachyos.org/configuration/btrfs_snapshots/ and pretty sure other distributions have this as an option as well.

phillipcarter• 4 months ago

Can we all just appreciate the sheer amount of writing and re-writing and executive review that had to go on to make this blog post go out? Goodness, I can smell the hand-wringing and political battling represented by these words through the wire. Incredible stuff.

cat-turner• 4 months ago

An article like this coming out does not make me feel confident about its quality in the future.

dgxyz2• 4 months ago

Think they burned what little trust anyone has in them over the last couple of years.

I have zero windows machines now and no promises will change that.

jen20• 4 months ago

Am I wrong in thinking that Windows 95 had the ability to reposition the task bar either horizontally or vertically? And someone actually chose to lead with that.

ray_v4• 4 months ago

Windows touches more people’s lives than almost any technology on Earth.

This can not possibly be true, in several dimensions/metrics. I understand that this is mostly marketing bluster, but holy cow are they delusional here.

kbelder• 4 months ago

More fluid and responsive app interactions: Reducing interaction latency by moving core Windows experiences to the WinUI3 framework.

I think this is good, because they're talking about removing (hideously inappropriate) react and other web technologies from core OS components, and using proper native OS calls instead. But I'm not familiar with WinUI3. I only know Win32. Is WinUI3 a flash-in-the-pan system like their other UI attempts, or is it decent and stable?

xeeeeeeeeeeenu• 4 months ago

Is WinUI3 a flash-in-the-pan system like their other UI attempts, or is it decent and stable?

If you stay in the happy path, it's decent, better than it used to be. Microsoft does seem committed to it, they're slowly converting Windows apps to WinUI 3.

That said, the team is clearly understaffed; there are long-standing unresolved bugs, just search for "memory leak" on their GitHub issue tracker. Also, native, non-.NET support is definitely an afterthought, it's barely documented and the tooling is super awkward. But at least, unlike WPF, it exists.

jiggawatts6• 4 months ago

WinUI 3 was a step back from WPF in technology, because it panders to the virtually non-existent Microsoft .NET mobile app market.

To remain compatible with Android and iPhones they removed or simplified a bunch of features, ironically stripping out HDR support just when practically all phones got wide gamut and HDR, OLED screens, etc.

In the era when mobile phones are getting amazing, Microsoft is still racing towards the bottom along with every laptop maker other than Apple.

userbinator3• 4 months ago

That sounds like the same bullshit they spouted when they tried to shove the "modern app" crap with Win8.

There's nothing wrong with Win32 (and everything wrong with the newer stuff); "interaction latency" was just fine on a single-core 33MHz 486 running Windows 95.

pathartl2• 4 months ago

God, the React stuff is so overblown. There's one small section of the start menu that's built with React Native for Windows, which is _not_ React and _not_ React Native, but a flavor of React that compiles down to native code calling Windows APIs.

topaz0• 4 months ago

Highest priority is moving the toolbar???

mattstir2• 4 months ago

Although I haven't touched Windows in a few years now, my understanding is that the OS has been having a very rough few months with unstable updates, bricked devices, etc. And yet the first thing they mention is moving around the task bar? Is that really what they want to lead with? It's just baffling. It's also a bit disturbing to see "reduced flicker for file explorer" as a main focus. Just how bad is the Windows experience?

peacebeard• 4 months ago

Their vulnerable introduction leading into the 4 task bar screenshots made me laugh out loud.

smcleod• 4 months ago

They feel like they're scrambling for any form of relevance when in reality that ship has long since sailed.

glitch13• 4 months ago

This includes the ability to skip updates during device setup to get to the desktop faster...

There's only one complaint that practically everyone has regarding what's required "during device setup," and it's not updates. I can't say I'm shocked that it's being ignored.

lateforwork• 4 months ago

I don't see anything about respecting user preferences. Things that drive me up the wall about Windows: attempting to switch me to Edge, Bing etc after every update. Apple doesn't do that. Also, forcing me to sign in using a Microsoft account as opposed to a local account.

XCSme• 4 months ago

So, we can move the taskbar, more AI, and some paint-flashing fixes

wxw• 4 months ago

I grew up on Windows, switched to Mac (college and beyond), and over time, have come to hate Windows. It feels like it doesn’t have a user’s best interest in mind. I’m just there to have Copilot or XYZ service shoved down my throat. I’m not sure Mac is actually any less sinister but at least it feels less so.

motbus32• 4 months ago

I want to believe but I can't. We know how much product decision there is in there putting business on top of quality. Doing shady stuff and having at least weird round tables. Putting a spy on everyone's house.

For now, I am so bitter about windows, that I just want it to stop being a thing

sunaookami2• 4 months ago

Recently got an HP ProBook for a relative to replace his old 2011 ThinkPad with Kubuntu 24.04 and I was shocked how laggy and unusable Windows 11 was. Every menu has tons of latency, programs take forever to start, even something simple like Rufus. File Explorer is a laggy mess, the whole OS feels like you are walking through mud. After a reboot there was a fullscreen message about "finish setting up the device" (??? it's already set up) with the only options being Confirm and "Remind me in 3 days". Thankfully my relative was comfortable with Kubuntu and all his files were there (and frankly we were too lazy to set everything up from scratch again) so I just cloned his old drive and Kubuntu runs like a dream! I'm not someone who would advocate for Linux because it still has very rough edges (even more so than 10 years ago somehow) and has a higher learning curve but Windows 11 is unbelievable bad. I switched to macOS roughly around Windows 11's release so my only other experience was at work (where I constantly complain about the TWO context menus!!!).

The last performant Windows version was Windows 8, despite its UX flaws. It actually made old computers faster and it started going downhill with the very first Windows 10 Technical Preview. I doubt that MS will reach that level of performance and stability again.

_aleph2c_• 4 months ago

It's not an OS anymore. It's an AI that spies on you while you work and sends your information back to servers controlled by intelligence services. Once your data is there, more AIs spend endless resources examining (thinking about) your life, cross referencing your windows behavior with the information they receive about you from data brokers. It's a threat to your personal sovereignty, your corporate/national security, remove it immediately. Switch to Linux.

andrewstuart2• 4 months ago

Key message at Microsoft:

“Windows has lost its way! Move the task bar!”

stevage2• 4 months ago

As part of this, we are reducing unnecessary Copilot entry points, starting with apps like Snipping Tool, Photos, Widgets and Notepad.

So they threw a lot of spaghetti at the wall, and this is the bit where some of it falls off.

jimt1234• 4 months ago

Exactly. However, I think this hints at the real problem - how disconnected from their users is the Windows team that they thought people would welcome AI in Notepad?

msalihb• 4 months ago

they joke with us. What we want is just a pure basic Windows experience without AI things make everything slower and not secure. What they give is taking the taskbar to left - right - top

urba_• 4 months ago

Me and my family still cannot believe that I bought a Macbook this week.

I used Windows since Windows 95 (back in '96, I was 5 years old).

But still having regular blue screens come back with Windows 11..

I am better off selling my 64GB of RAM, than Windows Defender eating a third of it at random times

throw_winblows2• 4 months ago

I recently took a vow to sneer less but it's really hard not to.

lawik• 4 months ago

The cadence these topics were written in was so Apple keynote video that I had Tim Cook's voice presenting it in my head. I hope that's not just me.

More in the topic. Good that Windows Update will suck less. Did the Discover-something-or-other-imply less start-memu ads, I couldn't tell..

tonymet3• 4 months ago

Microsoft deserves credit where credit is due. Windows Insider is a great program that takes a lot of effort to manage, and this mea culpa is a response to community feedback .

Windows is a fabulous operating system. I encourage people to see it as a tool and as an engineering marvel, rather than as an enemy or target of ridicule. I’ve been tremendously productive on Windows, and I have run every desktop OS , including Gentoo (when it used to take 2+ days to compile), BeOS, OS2 , Redhat on Power PC, FreeBSD and loads of niche operating systems.

If you like Operating systems, and hate Windows, I encourage you to read Show Stoppers about Dave Cutler making NT. It’s an amazing accomplishment, and will probably convert you from a Windows hater to an NT Kernel appreciator.

hilbert422• 4 months ago

I agree with most of what you say about Windows, technically, it's an excellent and reliable operating system honed over three decades.

Like you, I make the above comment based on my long experience from the IBM 360 through to Assembler, CP/M, OS/2, VAX, Linux and many others including Win 95, NT, W2K through to the present.

What you fail to acknowledge is that Microsoft has changed the Windows paradigm to such an extent that many users (but far from all) can no longer accept the horribly onerous terms and conditions imposed by Microsoft for the use of its operating system.

This is now a political issue. With Windows, Microsoft has by far a monopoly on desktop operating systems which amounts to many millions of users. Its monopoly means that any effective competition by way of a truly API-compatible software product simply cannot emerge (eg: ReactOS has been lingering in the wilderness for over a quarter century). In effect, with enforced lock-in, Microsoft has now hijacked—kidnapped—the user environment and experience then exploited the spoils for its own financial benefit.

A good analogy would be an ongoing patent on the position and layout order of the brake and accelerator pedals in vehicles with royalties payable to use them. Other manufacturers cannot innovate as different systems would cause confusion and thus be unsafe. In case you're wondering that's a definition of a monopoly.

Microsoft is not only forcing users to work in ways they do not want to work but also it's now milking and robbing millions of them of their privacy for its own financial advantage. Users no longer have an option to remain as they were and are coerced to upgrade from older less restrictive versions of Windows because Microsoft deliberately invokes planned obsolescence by not updating drivers nor supporting newer hardware in those earlier versions. Simply, Microsoft forces users to move to a more controlled and restrictive environments.

Ethically and environmentally that is unacceptable, and in any political system that isn't compromised by lobbying and kickbacks such bad behavior would be penalized.

Microsoft knows full well all that and that for users to escape its clutches they have to jump over barriers and hurdles that are practically impossible to navigate, they thus destined to remain captured in their unwanted dystopian environment. That's the narrative—it's Big Tech's plan, and grudgingly I have to admit it's brilliantly effective.

To undo this enforced lock-in and for everyone to escape Microsoft's clutches it would take billions of manhours of effort—time that would be much more productive spent elsewhere. Clearly, that's not going to happen. Right, coercion and exploitation pays off big-time; again, 'kidnapping' sums up Microsoft's actions to a tee.

Given the out-of-control behavior and damage done by Microsoft and other Big Tech players a point of inflection has been reached, it's now a political matter and the perpetrators will find the momentum very difficult to reverse completely. Cory Doctorow's 'enshitification' captures the zeitgeist along what needs to be done to bring Big Tech to heel.

It may take decades but at least it's a beginning.

Not only do the Big Tech monopolies have to be broken up but those responsible for conceiving and implementing the abuse in the first instance must be bought to account, hopefully by landing them in the slammer. What's happened isn't competitive capitalism as work but sheer exploitation and Big Tech's at the center of it.

If you think I'm bitter about this then you'd be correct, I am. Whenever I think of the many thousands of hours I've spent bypassing unwarranted and unreasonable restrictions brought on by coroprate greed and fixing crappy enshitified software my blood boils. That time should have been spent on more productive endeavors such as providing users with better programs and systems. Seems you've led a charmed working life not experienced by most of us.

Given your stated experience I should not have to refresh your memory of early Microsoft Windows EULAs (NT, W2K etc.) which incorporated terms to the effect "no user information will be sent to Microsoft". Now compare that with the Windows 11 EULA/terms and conditions, forced online user accounts etc. What has now happened with Windows 11 is the antithesis—a complete reversal—of the earlier paradigm. Here, one's once independence has been traded for lock-in and expensive rent models with exit conditions that are almost impossible to exercise in any practical way.

Seems you're quite content with this.

What's relevant here is that if your experience is as you've stated then you will be well aware of these glaring issues, so that raises the question of your dismissive attitude to the problems. Thus it's reasonable to assume it's highly likely you're more than just part of the Windows Insider program, probably an employee or such. Perhaps even AI generated content.

I apologize if I'm wrong.

That's your prerogative and no one questions your right. Presumably it pays well, but I'd foreshadow that as time marches on you'll find yourself more and more on the outer.

Good luck to you, you might need it.

tonymet3• 4 months ago

Linux will soon have identified login. There’s been little pushback on the age setting, which will soon be an identity setting.

Don’t jump to conclusions. I’m not “okay” with it. I’m using the best tool available for the job.

Don’t feel so high and mighty.

mijoharas• 4 months ago

From the title I thought this might be a reaction to the "Microslop" epithet and a commitment to increase code quality and reduce bugs.

Guess not.

It's a shame, I'd appreciate more than a single 9 of uptime from GitHub (luckily I don't need to interact with anything else Microsoft related)

danielodievich• 4 months ago

Back in the Longhorn (that is, Vista) days, I was friends with an engineering manager on the core desktop services team. He told me about how the "combine icons" in taskbar feature came to be. I think it came out after XP? mmm. I think yeah it came in Vista right after XP. Or was it one of the XP service packs? Anyhow, it was endlessly introduced by PMs, and endlessly cut after obnoxious reviews. Per this guy he just coded it one day and pushed it into daily build. Got in a lot of trouble but it made it.

Glad they're putting taskbar back into whatever sides. I despise my work Mac's single location at the bottom, wasteful waste of space. I've had icons on the left since Windows 95 and I like them there.

grandpoobah• 4 months ago

Let me use Windows 10 for 10 more years. You're full of shit Microsoft.

dmitrygr• 4 months ago

This is too little and too late, but you must give them credit for having the introspection ability to even go this far. Yes, the bar for microsoft is so low as to be handicap-accessible.

paxys3• 4 months ago

Embedding your signature at the end of a blog post is such a bullshit executive move. You just know this guy has been playing corporate politics for the last 30 years.

OrvalWintermute• 4 months ago

What about:

- native quick launch bar

- killing telemetry

- killing UI kludge

- permitting non-MS apps again

hyperadvanced• 4 months ago

lol microslop

whirlwin• 4 months ago

Windows is just a wonderful box of chocolate that keeps expanding. You never know what you get, all brilliant frontier tech innovations like Edge, Bing, the calculator, vertical taskbar, and now the highly intelligent Copilot, up there fighting with OpenCode, CC and others...!

paxys3• 4 months ago

Weren't you able to move the taskbar to the top in like Windows 98 and XP? So they deliberately took away a feature, are adding it back after years, and selling this as "see we listen to our users!!"

jwpapi• 4 months ago

I switched to Fedora as my first full time Linux OS and it’s honestly changed my life.

I can use my computer as a tool to do my craft and I’m not constantly sucked in ai features, news, or external search results, if I don’t want it.

OS stands for operating system, Microsoft is not that for me.

I wouldn’t know how to ever go back. I really hope I’m not forced to for some reason.

legitster• 4 months ago

I actually don't have any particular problems with Windows. It's familiar, it works with everything I do, I don't have a reason to switch.

That said, it's completely rudderless. How important is an operating system anymore anyway when most applications are just an Electron app anyway? What does consumer Windows provide Microsoft anymore besides a gateway to Office 365 and other actually profitable services?

They also clearly fell asleep at the wheel on things like gaming. The future is clearly Linux-based.

And on the hardware front, Microsoft seemed to have given up on their own consumer gear, and their partners have left them out to dry yet again.

jtrn• 4 months ago

Oh goody. I left windows but this really makes me want to come back: More control over widgets and feed experiences!

What a list of bangers!

matt_heimer• 4 months ago

Funny, I just bought Start11 from Stardock for side taskbar placement. It was the oddest choice to remove that feature. On an ultrawide monitor it just makes so much sense.

jovial_cavalier• 4 months ago

If Microsoft leadership thinks that they took a wrong turn in the last few years, they are in for a rude awakening (I hope). They took a wrong turn in the late 90s. Probably earlier than that. They have managed to stave off all user feedback for 30 years through litigious bullying and strict vendor lock-in. This isn't about the taskbar, man. This isn't even about Copilot.

The pushback which you are only now starting to perceive is being caused by an entire generation of Microsoft intentionally and actively positioning itself in conflict with its customers.

I understand that once you have a million customers, you can't really treat them right anymore. But Microsoft has not given a single shit about customer feedback, even in aggregate for decades now.

As I read this, all I can think is "too little, too late." I have watched in my workplace Windows go from being a product that we are happy to purchase to yet another piece of technology that we would simply replace were we not yoked to it.

I guess even now they probably still don't care. Microsoft will continue printing money until the sun burns out.

politelemon• 4 months ago

I will give them this one benefit of the doubt. The tone in the blog post is a straightforward one that is rare to see in such communications, without fluff or marketing speak. It's a rare acknowledgment of going a bit nuts with the copilot integrations. It did look like they were trying to see what sticks and presumably the answer is, we can't figure out what did.

Personal computing is a rare niche these days thanks to the majority who have chosen to give over the personal aspect to the privacy hostile duopoly of MS and Apple (while celebrating doing so) who hold the leash.

jmward01• 4 months ago

No commitment to keeping your machine yours with local only accounts. No commitment to blocking ads. Honestly though, at this point even if they did massive changes and addressed privacy and ownership I would be years away from trying them again. They could pay me and I would say no.

jwrallie• 4 months ago

Being able to uninstall Bing and Edge would be great too. Being realistic, it’s likely that Copilot will join the list of apps you cannot uninstall very soon.

some-guy• 4 months ago

I'm at a large enterprise outfit, and "shoving things in your face" has been a problem with large software suites for a long time, long before the AI craze. I keep telling my skip level leadership that we need more User-Experience "mob goons" that have authority across product domains to (metaphorically) beat the living daylight out of bad "PM-brained" ideas.

attentive• 4 months ago

"Repositioning the taskbar is one of the top asks we’ve heard from you".

Tell us why it was removed in the first place, why it takes years to put it back and it's still future promises as of March 2026. That's just a clown show.

KnuthIsGod• 4 months ago

Second raters working on a third rate operating system, offer fourth rate ameliorations for problems, their fifth rate product managers introduced.

jm42• 4 months ago

Windows 11 performs like a pig, it’s full of unnecessary notifications and apps that constantly seek attention, copilot isn’t useful, I feel like I’m being spied on, the UI is weird.

It could be turned into a great OS if they simply remove some things. Get rid of the ads, make copilot an optional component, stop trying to sell 365, let me turn off telemetry, etc.

gonzalohm2• 4 months ago

Remember when installers allowed you to personalize the components you wanted to install? I miss that. I wasn't on windows but I remember that office allowed you to choose which components you wanted

malbs• 4 months ago

I feel like this commitment to Windows quality post is actually just copilot generated slop.

Someone in the comments here said nobody loves Windows. I probably did love Windows 7. I felt that it was the best of all worlds, huge support for hardware, basically rock solid on good hardware, gaming performance was fantastic.

In my opinion, Windows has spiraled downwards ever since 7. So much so that I finally switched to Linux permanently. Windows 11 and the forced AI integration was the absolute last straw for me.

The only thing that had really kept me on Windows lately was the gaming side of it. As I've gotten older, the games became less important. Now Proton pretty much gets me compatibility on 172 of 173 games in my steam library. Sure I had to search and find and compile my own controller driver, but it wasn't super painful, probably beyond the realms of an average user still.

esseph5• 4 months ago

I'm reading this thread and I'm absolutely shocked that people are still advocating for Ubuntu for anything. It was a more user-friendly choice with more up to date packages maybe 15 years ago than the beloved Debian at the time, but that was long ago. Even then I wasn't one to put it on servers unless I had to for whatever reason, it just wasn't stable.

RHEL is mostly what you will see @ Corpo, with some occasional SUSE for Europeans. Given that Fedora is the upstream for RHEL (and no snapd), it is quite well supported. AFAIK, it's also what Linus Torvalds has ran for a long while now.

windows7user• 4 months ago

We are introducing the ability to reposition it to the top or sides of your screen

No, you mean reintroducing a capability that was standard in Windows for 20+ years? Stop acting like this is some new innovation being introduced in Windows 11.

Just a handful of things that all were taken for granted in Windows previously, doesn't even scratch the surface of issues with Windows 10/11, which removed tons of useful stuff and added garbage nobody wants.

Forced to use Windows 11 at work (well, or a Mac, but Windows 11 is just barely the lesser of two evils) and I hate it. I continue to use Windows 7 at home, which remains the best workstation OS and likely will forever.

lousken3• 4 months ago

What about bringing back old notepad and improving admin apps?

MMC snapins haven't been touched in years and still can't even sort those columns properly, search and filtering is terrible

Control panel is still not migrated over to settings after 12 years nor you can open two settings apps.

Error messages in modern apps are just the worst, how about printing valuable error messages than "something is wrong"?

Fixing dark patterns like taking over your screen with popups and taking over the application header so you can't close windows unless you go to the task manager. First time opening edge shows a really annoying splash screen + home page is filled with ads.

Also where are 5 second boot times on NVMe SSDs? Anything more is just sloppy.

Just to list a few pet peeves

But let's see if they can even fix things they've mentioned in the post, though that's like 1/4 of the issues that should be fixed.

jiggawatts6• 4 months ago

improving admin apps?

They have a bunch of replacements, all of which are slow as molasses and not feature complete.

1. Server Manager.

2. Windows Admin Centre.

3. Settings App (same as desktop).

4. PowerShell

5. DSC

6. Azure Arc

There's also Active Directory Administrative Center which never replaced dsa.msc for me or anyone I've ever worked with.

Similarly, there's like half a dozen performance monitor tools for Windows Server, and they're all terrible and are missing critical features.

lousken3• 4 months ago

i've stopped administrating windows some time ago so hopefully my response is still accurate -

1. deprecated lol

2. i think it can't be run on things like AD, so for very small companies this is annoying

3. ... that's not really an admin app?

4. sure, but then i might as well switch to linux if i have to stick to cli (and i did)

5. last time i checked there were two versions, incompatible with one another, not great alternative to ansible

6. if you have hybrid and are in azure already, maybe? haven't used

I mean it's not like there are not 5 alternatives in azure/intune for every thing as well that are half baked. And 365 and azure is worse with terrible migration guides, ms graph with a combination of commands and json inputs and defaults from 2016.

It's really time for microsoft to fully commit to one thing, make it good, finish it and deprecate everything else.

pathartl2• 4 months ago

PowerShell is slow or not feature complete? It's arguably one of the best shells out there.

userbinator3• 4 months ago

Old notepad is still there, you just need to remove the new abomination.

Control panel is still not migrated over to settings after 12 years nor you can open two settings apps.

I wish they'd migrate back to the old Control Panel...

Error messages in modern apps are just the worst

...as the new one is a "modern app" and about as horrible as they come.

EvanAnderson• 4 months ago

For anybody who wants to get rid of the new abomination:

From an elevated Powershell prompt:

Get-AppxProvisionedPackage -Online | Where-Object { $_.PackageName -like 'Microsoft.WindowsNotepad*' } | Remove-AppxProvisionedPackage -Online

ZeWaka2• 4 months ago

I actually like the features on new notepad (like dark mode and markdown, not the Copilot garbage), but 300MB of memory for notepad.exe is fucking hilarious.

SanjayMehta• 4 months ago

Receiving updates should be predictable and easy to plan around, so we’re giving you more control.

I can't remember when Update became so intrusive and aggressive - Vista? - but it was the top annoyance for me personally.

6thbit• 4 months ago

Isn't this the same company that fired most of their QA people few years back?

Their commitments here seem to try to bring windows back to what it was when they still had their QA teams.

cute_boi• 4 months ago

Microslop can commit, but I don't think they can get fix bloatware. Adding customer feedback form isn't going to fix it.

chasing0entropy• 4 months ago

In Ctrl+f t find "remove copilot"... Wasn't in there. Thumbs down

PaulKeeble3• 4 months ago

Microsoft has spent over a decade swimming against their users interests at this point and during that time frame Linux has been improving its desktop and improving kernel performance. We are now at the point where Linux emulating Window's entire API space for games with worse drivers is dangerously close on performance with none of the privacy invasion and anti user features. Its pretty late in the game for them to start trying to switch back to producing an Operating system users actually want. Users refusing to switch from Windows 10 should have been that wake up call.

I don't think Microsoft can pull this off, I think as mindshare is shifting it will continue to do so and its going to take Microsoft a long time to row back and right now its only talking about doing some minor things. Now Nvidia is developing the drivers on Linux seriously there is every chance this transition snowballs and nothing Microsoft does will be enough.

scns• 4 months ago

where Linux emulating Window's entire API space for games with worse drivers is
dangerously close on performance

sometimes more performant.

coreyburnsdev2• 4 months ago

most games I'm getting 1% lows that are much higher than windows at 4k resolution

mitkebes• 4 months ago

sometimes more performant.

That's usually due to:

1. Converting directX into Vulkan (potentially very large performance gains)

2. Less OS overhead (usually minor gains)

9999000009997• 4 months ago

Normal people can not install an OS. Aside from like 3 ThinkPads on Lenovo's website, you can't really buy Linux pre installed on a computer.

This is about the MacBook Neo coming for the budget laptop market. At 500$ it's an easy choice.

bigyabai10• 4 months ago

Normal people can definitely install an OS. Last weekend I set aside time help a friend install CachyOS. They'd never used a terminal before and wanted some help.

When I called them, they had already set it up and was playing Risk of Rain 2. They started streaming for me on the Discord Flatpak they installed from the app store.

gerdesj5• 4 months ago

There are an awful lot of groups installing Linux on Win 10 cast offs around the world.

My uncle runs one in Bradford on Avon and they are slapping on an OS for you whilst you supp tea and chat. Often, the user-agent is set to something Microsoftie in the browser. If necessary Edge is installed but that is frowned on 8)

I have not heard of this MacBook Neo thing ... Why would ? I only own a little IT company and hang around on HN.

robotnikman• 4 months ago

Valve and devices like the Steam Deck and soon the Steam Machine are also grabbing the gaming segment away from Windows. Distros like Bazzite also are enticing to those technically inclined enough to boot from a USB drive and run the simple installer.

janalsncm• 4 months ago

Correct. And they usually don’t install windows on their computer either. The 8 year old laptop they got at Best Buy had it pre installed. So if Linux is going to go mainstream it’ll be because stores start offering PCs with Linux that are at a $140 discount.

iAMkenough2• 4 months ago

Normal people will be expected to upgrade to Windows 12 next year after seeing "your hardware isn't supported" Windows Update messages, without any idea of what an NPU is or why it's a system requirement to receive a system upgrade.

I think this is in response to slightly abnormal people trying Steam OS and other user-friendly Linux distros as they grow increasingly annoyed with Windows 11 antics.

cantalopes• 4 months ago

Yes they absolutely can. Nowadays it's as simple as clicking "install" from inside windows to try a linux distro

queuebert2• 4 months ago

System76 sells some pretty nice computers with Linux preinstalled. Not to mention every Chromebook is a Linux machine.

econ5• 4 months ago

That might be what they think. I just installed windows and it had countless dialogs. Most have a reason to exist but it's a lot of work. The Ubuntu live usb on the other hand just boots into the desktop environment. It just works? There is nothing to do?

casey22• 4 months ago

These days it's as easy as running a powershell script. There is 0 functional barrier to installing Linux from any windows machine. Soon the same will be true for the Neo.

Induane2• 4 months ago

Those and System76 of course. Plus the SteamDeck is Linux, as are a number of other handheld gaming systems. The new Steam Machine is as well.

frm882• 4 months ago

When did you ckeck last? They are everywhere, even Bestbuy sells them: https://noai.duckduckgo.com/?kax=-1&q=pre-installed+Linux+PC...

moffkalast3• 4 months ago

Framework, System76, and a few others do offer it now but yeah only as a niche dev thing.

I think there is a real chance that there will be an EU push for that to be made available as a way of gradually decoupling national security interests from the US, for obvious reasons.

Figs• 4 months ago

Normal people can not install an OS.

Of course they can. They might be too lazy or ignorant to do so, but it's not really any harder to learn to install Linux than it is to learn to make mashed potatoes once you're motivated to bother -- and billions of people have managed to do the latter just fine.

Normal people are absolutely capable of following basic directions like: "download this file", "insert a USB stick", "run this program", "reboot your computer", "double click the install icon", "click the 'Continue' button (or similar) following the on-screen prompts".

The file in question -- good enough for most people with a Windows computer from the last decade: https://pub.linuxmint.io/stable/22.3/linuxmint-22.3-cinnamon...

The program to run: https://etcher.balena.io/#download-etcher

Detailed instructions here, including screenshots if you need them: https://linuxmint-installation-guide.readthedocs.io/en/lates...

everdrive3• 4 months ago

I wish you were right, but Microsoft has a lot of money they can throw at the problem. Right now they don't care about Windows because their money comes from Azure. There are a few concerns here: if people _really_ moved away from Windows that would actually threaten the Azure ecosystem. Further, since Microsoft doesn't care to make a profit (with Windows) they could also just throw resources at Windows because it supports their Azure business. Microsoft can hire talent if they need to and turn the ship around.

raw_anon_111127• 4 months ago

Azure is only successful because of big enterprise. Consumers using or not using Windows makes no difference

Two factoids: Azure runs more Linux VMs than Windows VMs and AWS runs more Windows VMs than Azure.

pndy4• 4 months ago

It's possible that due to Azure success they decided that consumer sector is a testing ground for their exploitation patterns, where they can test out how much their userbase can withstand before being seriously annoyed. And this is what happen, people said "enough" by looking for alternatives.

They can throw money to tweak some stuff but I doubt they'll fully back off from pushing for software+services or all this recent conditioning for Copilot. This piece is a damage control but wording shows they won't change. I doubt that in last 26 years we had a company that truly admitted its mistakes - that's not in the "nature" of such entities.

aeternum• 4 months ago

Much of big tech became Product leaders running amok. Somehow It shifted from users know best to "Product" knows best.

I think this all stemmed everyone wanting to be Apple except no one actually achieved it and now we have 3 different versions of the audio control panel in Windows, the start button is somehow in the middle of the screen, and windows search no longer searches your PC.

Deleting "Product" might save windows, short of that, I am doubtful.

mulmen• 4 months ago

At this point Apple isn't even Apple. Product ate the world. I don't remember the last time someone came to me with a customer problem to solve. It's all warring fiefdoms.

Lammy4• 4 months ago

and now we have 3 different versions of the audio control panel in Windows

And yet somehow none of them are as nice as https://eartrumpet.app/ lol

MetaWhirledPeas• 4 months ago

I've never been bothered by Windows's changes, and I mostly think they were reasonable. But for a number of reasons it's never going to be easy for them to gain total acceptance: 1) the massive backwards compatibility back to Windows 95 stuff, 2) the willingness to try new and/or silly things that Apple is too stuffy to try, and 3) the fact that there's only ever going to be one "flavor" of Windows; if we were stuck with one single Linux distro people would be complaining about that one too.

gnarlouse3• 4 months ago

Apple achieved it with Mac OS X Snow Leopard. Apple then spent ~15 years un-achieving it. It started with iOS 7, and has culminated in the Liquid (Gl)ass era: a mess of unintuitive menus, terrible and inconsistent UI patterns, the lobotomite twins Siri & Apple Intelligence.

Although, surprisingly, built on top of absolutely incredible silicon.

Traubenfuchs2• 4 months ago

windows search no longer searches your PC

Absolutely baffling, when the perfect, magical, instant, high performance search tool has existed for a decade at least: "Everything"

One of THE BEST windows apps.

tempodox2• 4 months ago

Microsoft has always known better than their users, they practically invented this attitude. Others then copied it.

canucker20162• 4 months ago

... the start button is somehow in the middle of the screen ...

If you take a look at the size of widescreen monitors, you can kinda guess why someone decided to move the start button/menu to the middle of the screen.

I know Samsung and Dell have ginmorous 49 inch monitors. Start menu that pops up from the lower left corner of the monitor would be a bad UX - the user might not even notice that a menu had popped up if that lower left corner of the monitor is out of their peripheral vision.

Moving the Start menu to the middle of the screen does go against years of muscle memory... moving your mouse/trackpad to the lower left, using the monitor border as a stop-zone though.

I guess they didn't want to make it an option/toggle hidden in some dialog box somewhere...

littlestymaar• 4 months ago

I think this all stemmed everyone wanting to be Apple except no one actually achieved it

Given the repeating pattern of Apple shipping a hated operating system update in recent year, it feels like it's more “everybody wants to be Steve Jobs and no one actually achieves it including Apple”.

pjmlp3• 4 months ago

People having Apple in high regard should also learn about its history, and the almost bankruptcy that didn't kill the company out of sheer luck.

Frieren• 4 months ago

Somehow It shifted from users know best to "Product" knows best.

In a world where consumers have less and less power, products are designed to please CEOs.

Money is power, as inequality grows and concentrates the average user/worker/citizen has less power and their voices matter less. Today's Internet is designed for the needs of big corporations, users are there just as another product to be sold.

raw_anon_111127• 4 months ago

So are you predicting that 2026 will be the year of “Linux on the Desktop”?

PaulKeeble3• 4 months ago

Its going to take a lot longer than that. Hardware companies are very slow to adopt this sort of change, for this transition to happen it requires Microsoft to not get its act together for another decade.

moffkalast3• 4 months ago

Every year is the year of Linux on desktop ;)

subscribed7• 4 months ago

I'm waiting for a better Nvidia drivers/performance in either Ubuntu or Fedora family and that's it for me.

I prefer user experience on Linux so much more (I've been always using Linux laptop as a work PC), its just that I like gaming casually in my free time.

I'd try the migration already, but due to the *** up NVMe prices I don't have a new disk to start with, so I'll have to do the slow and more careful migration.

gzread5• 4 months ago

Linux works about as well on the desktop as it did in 2003 - if you know what you're doing, you can make it work, and if not, you can still run a browser but most things won't work for you.

Linux is better than Windows on the desktop because Windows got worse, not because Linux got better.

Unless you mean for gaming. That was Valve's exit strategy from Windows.

rstat1• 4 months ago

If that is truly what you think, then you clearly haven't used a Linux desktop distro since then because that absolutely incorrect.

bikelang• 4 months ago

I’m relatively new to Linux desktop and this hasn’t been my experience at all. What do you think doesn’t work?

hdivider2• 4 months ago

I really hope you're right. The challenge with Linux still seems to be practicalities -- like in particular, does Zoom run well on most distributions?

Reports seem to be of system crashes and degraded performance. I imagine there are lots of 'it works for me' stories, but think: for Linux to eat into Windows user market share (which I would greatly support), critical things like Zoom have to work at least as reliably as on Windows. For nontechnical users who would never figure out which incantations to type into the terminal to fix it -- because they have their next meeting in 15 minutes.

asveikau2• 4 months ago

How many hours has Zoom put into making the client stable on Windows and Mac?

How many hours have they put into the Linux client?

My guess is the answer to these questions indicate more of how it got there than anything the distros or upstream components can do.

anon291• 4 months ago

I mean... Windows legitimately doesn't work. I work at one of the mag7 and it's a running jokes while using windows that suddenly everyone's microphone quits. We then have to restart. This has been going on years. Our colleagues on Linux don't have such problems.

It's just that we accept windows issues as "that's how computers are". While Linux is expected to work

phyzome• 4 months ago

Zoom works fine for me on Ubuntu. Or at least, it's no more flaky than it is on Mac.

com2kid2• 4 months ago

I installed PopOS (22) and zoom worked fine right off the bat. So did steam and all my steam games. Heck even my printer worked. (It has since become more temperamental and now only works with one of the 3 print dialogues on my Linux box...)

My game controller worked, my BT headset, the media keys on my keyboard even worked.

Lots of stuff was mildly broken but no more so than it was on Windows. It is just differently broken.

drnick1• 4 months ago

like in particular, does Zoom run well on most distributions?

It works fine (tested on Arch), but at the very least you should run that kind of malware as a separate user, or better yet, in a VM.

cguess• 4 months ago

Even my Starbook, so... literally made for Linux, doesn't do things like going to sleep when I close the lid. It made me switch back to my Mac because despite being able to, I have a life and little time for my main work device to decide to not work randomly.

Linux is never, and I mean never going to be a legitimate alternative to Windows or MacOS on the desktop under the current paradigm. "Switch to X desktop or distro" means less than zero to 99.9% of computer users (probably a few more nines in there too).

"Oh but the Steam Machine!" essentially no one who uses that will actually care what the OS is, it's a shell and a very specific one to do a single task, no-one is buying it as a general purpose machine they can do their taxes on.

subscribed7• 4 months ago

Works fine on recent Ubuntu and Fedora, both Wayland and X.

"Fine" and not amazing because occasionally I have screen sharing issues, but that's like once in a blue moon? Could be down to my specific configuration, but it's allegedly more stable than my coworker's zoom on Mac.

hsuduebc22• 4 months ago

Absolutely. Fuck them.

I am curious whether they will "suddenly realized" this after the community feedback process they initiated because they supposedly care so much about their users. Then, out of nowhere, they discovered that users do not want to be spied on or treated as the product. They just want to use their fucking operating system in peace without Microsoft constantly forcing its own products on them.

I wonder when that realization came and why. Maybe they started losing market share to Apple or users just prefer phones to pc even more?

jmull• 4 months ago

its going to take Microsoft a long time to row back

They won't actually move back to a user-focused OS at all. It's nice for them to declare they will, but their culture and business pressures will prevent any kind of sustained effort. (Their users aren't their customers.)

brightball2• 4 months ago

I really wonder how much of an impact these AI tools are going to have on the Linux ecosystem. Seems like huge potential advantage brewing over proprietary OSs. Look how fast Omarchy came together and improved…it’s phenomenal.

trinsic23• 4 months ago

I keep hearing that marketing term beautiful but I'm really not seeing it. It just looks like a tiling windows manager. Feels like we're going back in time.

rsanheim3• 4 months ago

Yes. This. Too little too late MSFT.

And it really comes down to $MSFT. If the stock keeps dropping, how long do you think any real commitment to “quality” for a boring, low(no?) revenue product will last? Very little when the ad/partner revenue really starts flowing for “ai focused metrics” that can directly tie to windows surveillance (ie recall).

xnx6• 4 months ago

OS was twice made irrelevant by the browser and mobile. AI assistants will make the OS about as important to the average user as the BIOS.

pxc• 4 months ago

Are the Linux graphics drivers actually worse, though? I thought it was widely agreed that the open-source user-space drivers, e.g., in Mesa, are actually very good these days.

M95D4• 4 months ago

Could be, but I can't afford the GPUs they are so very good on.

jaimex22• 4 months ago

It's been 10 years since I booted Windows or MacOS.

It's been fantastic. People always find an excuse but really they are doing themselves a disservice.

jaimex22• 4 months ago

Microslop employees down voting - lol

reyaaltrooth• 4 months ago

It hard to say what went wrong with this company. They were doing all the right things, hiring top notch decision makers like Satya, Pavan Davuluri, Asha Sharma, Sonali Yadav. Then employing tens of thousands of highly skilled H1Bs. I guess its just bad luck that this company's product quality is down in the drain.

alsetmusic2• 4 months ago

I guess its just bad luck that this company's product quality is down in the drain.

You're right. It can't possibly be bad leadership and poor decisions. Sometimes you just slip on a patch of ice and that's how you lost your business.

halJordan• 4 months ago

It's definitely not bad luck. It's entirely a driven chosen situation. Read the blog post. They're not improving quality there reverting anti-end user decisions. "Quieter defaults," "more control over widgets"

There's zero intention to improve the fundamentals of the os. These are what a smart group thinks will be the smallest concession to retain goodwill.

Come off it with "bad luck"

jongjong• 4 months ago

The media is a powerful force.

When I first tried Ubuntu decades ago it was like an awakening and I started seeing every developer using Windows and Mac as brainwashed fools. That's not to pick on others because I also started seeing my former self as brainwashed.

For a developer, Linux is far superior for many reasons.

Moving from Windows to Linux reminds me of Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.

A lot of times, with software, you could be severely constrained but not realize it because you don't know better. The effect is very strong in this industry.

CodeCompost• 4 months ago

For a developer, Linux is far superior for many reasons.

This is precisely why Microsoft created WSL2

zeroc8• 4 months ago

Yes, for a developer it's great.

But then you come across things like "movie not playing due to missing DRM support" and crap like that.

Normal users are probably better off with a Macbook.

qingcharles3• 4 months ago

I've used *nix extensively headless for the last 30 years, but I have decision paralysis when it comes to figuring out what the heck Linux distro is good for a desktop.

hkt• 4 months ago

Honestly, pick one of the well known distros at random. Personally I use Manjaro with GNOME: up to date software and a polished out of the box experience. I never have to go to the terminal unless I want to.

subscribed7• 4 months ago

There's a handful of the easy ones, all offering slightly different experiences, all good.

Ideally you'd spend at least a day or so trying them all, and about a week reading and watching about their differences, pros and cons.

Unless you are using nVidia for gaming or have an obscure hardware configuration, chances are you're supported wonderfully well at this very moment, by at least 2-3 distributions (Mint, Manjaro, Fedora, Ubuntu, Bazzite, SteamOS, PopOS, CachyOS -- you'll also have a choice KDE/Gnome).

All you need is pendrive. For the super easy transition you'd want an entirely separate system drive (nvme for example). I know, its expensive. I said for the super easy transition, its not necessary. Slow portable disk to store your current documents and game saves should be enough.

We live in the exciting times.

juliangmp2• 4 months ago

Just go for whatever DE looks pretty to you, I personally like KDE. Don't be afraid to switch to a different desktop later on, its just a few packages to install most of the time.

As for distros, pick something established that looks good to you. You said you have experience, so you probably know what you want from a distro. I ran arch on my machine a lot but recently switched to fedora for its simpler installation.

zaradvutra• 4 months ago

We are now at the point where Linux emulating Window's entire API space for games with worse drivers is dangerously close on performance with none of the privacy invasion and anti user features.

.. yet. The absolute roll-over I've seen regarding OS level age verification is concerning and disheartening.

leptons• 4 months ago

Microsoft Windows will be just fine for a very long time. Corporate security systems and IT admin doesn't typically run on Linux well or at all, but it does run on Windows and MacOS. We're using popular auth software at my work, but it does not run on Linux otherwise I'd have switched to Linux on my work machines a while ago. That alone is 3 computers that won't ever have Linux. Anecdotal, I know, but the corporate world does not care about Linux as a computing platform outside of servers and machines that people don't use as a desktop/laptop to get work done. Sadly, Microsoft isn't going anywhere and I doubt they are worried about losing any market share to Linux.

DANmode2• 4 months ago

Gamers aren’t the table stakes.

Enterprise users are.

chanux• 4 months ago

Even though MacOS is not terribly better, it's good enough. Add to that the new cheaper macbook and it must inspire pause in the great folks at Microsoft.

moffkalast3• 4 months ago

MacOS has been going downhill as well though, at least from what I hear from long time users.

mxkopy• 4 months ago

One thing I will give to them is the MSVC ecosystem. (Something something developers)

No doubt it’s starting to show its age but it’s like watching a lion die. Win32 amenities just being automatically available is quite sick and I wish there was something similar for Linux.

It’s like windows devs and users live in alternate realities, I’m sure a lot of cool things can happen if they bring some of that dev love over to their UX.

imjustmsk• 4 months ago

I genuinely wish they woulda gotten beytet, it's always good have some competition Nd alternatives, but Microslop just wanna slop around after all.

safety1st• 4 months ago

This is a good time to reflect on how business actually works (as opposed to how hopeful consumers wish it would work).

A business exists because its shareholders invest capital with the expectation of a return. As a result, nearly all businesses go through similar lifecycles. The stages are launch, growth, maturity, decline, and sometimes renewal. There is a lot of capital injected in the early stages and to capture market share the firm often produces the best product it can.

Once the market share is acquired, the business puts up moats if it's able, and then it enters the MATURITY phase. That's where the Windows business is. In the maturity phase a business focuses on TAKING PROFITS wherever it can find them. This includes but is not limited to cutting back on its investment in product, as much as it can. If it can cut budgets and quality and give that money to the shareholders it will. If it can inject ads into the product or resell your data it will.

The very purpose of a business is to reach maturity and then take profits.

That's capitalism. The investors provided the capital. In the end, they gets what they wants.

Now if a company leans into this dynamic as hard as Microsoft has, you should know what's coming. No one should be surprised - maybe they're scared of the Neo right now and there'll be a few years of reprieve, but they're a mature firm, they're in profit taking mode, and the goal in this phase is not to make Windows as great as possible, it's to squeeze as much money out of it as they can.

The next stage is decline -- where the squeeze gets so hard that the business actually collapses. All businesses fail sooner or later. Everything becomes lawyers and accountants slicing it up, selling it off, and sometimes it gets restructured and reborn, sometimes it doesn't. This can take years or it can take decades but it's basically a bumpy downhill road from maturity to that point. If you stick around at this point and keep using Windows, keep in mind that's what you opted into. There isn't really any other way. It's just business.

Intriguingly, free software in its more elemental forms doesn't appear to follow this lifecycle. It's not for profit and there are no investors to satisfy. Contributors who build the software do it mainly out of self-interest: they build what they want to use, and as a result they may come and go at any time. But the software remains there, and you are welcome to tinker with it, too.

rmunn10• 4 months ago

I'd argue that although publicly-traded businesses do usually go through that cycle (I would say that it's not ALL, but it's certainly MOST, because I can't come up with a counterexample), privately-owned businesses are more likely to avoid it. For example, McMaster-Carr. Privately-owned, with just a few owners rather than a large number of shareholders. And as far as I know (never having been one of their customers myself, just hearing testimonials), they're still just as good at making quality products that their customers want as they were a hundred twenty-five years ago when they got started. No "TAKING PROFITS" stage, and no subsequent decline.

But it does seem like publicly-owned companies go through those stages. It may be shareholder pressure, but part of it also appears to be when they get people in upper management who went to business school to get an MBA, rather than who have been with the company for years. I don't know what makes MBAs so prone to the nonsensensical pursuit of short-term profits that tank the company, rather than the greater (in the long run) long-term profits available by just continuing to make good products that customers want, but it shows up often enough (in many industries) that I'm starting to think of it as "MBA syndrome". And if a company is publicly-traded and run by MBA-style management? Sell your shares now and get out while you still can, is my advice.

thienannguyencv• 4 months ago

The irony here is that their "commitment to quality" is essentially an admission they never delivered. And half of what they promised—like moving the taskbar—are features that already exist in Windows 10. They removed them, ignored complaints for years, and now they say they're "listening to feedback."

Similarly with "reducing unnecessary Copilot integration." They added it everywhere before, users hated it, and now removing it is considered a feature.

This isn't a commitment to quality. This is just a fix for years of treating the operating system as an advertising platform.

whiplash451• 4 months ago

I would love for you to be right. Unfortunately in many cases the “windows” decision is made by C-levels who barely understand what you are talking about (or if they do, pretend they don’t to save their jobs)

jdubs1984• 4 months ago

The efforts to make Windows a storefront and user data harvester over an OS will never be suspended, at least not under this CEO.

Nice to see them finally admitting user needs might be important to some level, but the way MS operates historically is that no bad idea ever dies, at best they get delayed and then shoehorned in with less fanfare at a later date.

EchoReflection• 4 months ago

100%. It's amazing how unfriendly/hostile MS has become with things like forced updates, trying to force users to use their shitty, bloated "Edge" browser, MS "Copilot", building location "services" as an "on-by-default" aspect of the OS. it's like they were deliberately trying to make users switch to Apple or Linux. But since Linux is a little more for "tech-savvy" ppl, I imagine Apple has been the biggest winner of MS's blindness.

summermusic• 4 months ago

It’s frankly embarrassing that they have to come out and say that they are going to make Explorer “faster and more dependable.” It’s amazing how badly they fucked up the most basic function of managing a graphical operating system.

throw7• 4 months ago

I don't really use windows for anything except games (still on windows 10 for as long as possible).

I did not know you can't move the taskbar in windows 11... I literally lol'd. That type of shit is why I dumped gnome 3 a long time ago.

ufmace4• 4 months ago

I can't help but think, 90s Microsoft was far from perfect, but they at least seemed to care a lot about the quality of Windows. 2020s Microsoft seems to see Windows as something they can leverage to get themselves in front of whatever the latest tech trend is, never mind what it does to their users' ability to get stuff done.

They may say they're backing off now, but it's hard to trust them. Will they just do the same thing with whatever the next tech trend is?

wewewedxfgdf• 4 months ago

This is not serious.

Only a public statement of "deepest possible rethink in attitude" from Satya Nadella would mean a different future for Windows.

Whatever this is - which is mostly weasel words - will fizzle and fade.

neuropacabra2• 4 months ago

I think for a lot of people is already too late

techgnosis• 4 months ago

Ctrl+F "ads"

Nothing

cogman104• 4 months ago

I love how the second half of this article is obviously just an AI slop agenda. That entirely speaks to how much microsoft "cares".

Frankly, the things they've listed as action items for the future are things that they should have been doing FROM THE BEGINNING.

Like, how on earth was

Faster and more responsive Windows experiences

NOT a part of just the general release cycle of a major windows update? How was it they didn't notice that the file explorer experience in 11 was noticeably worse than windows 10 and the same hardware?

We all know the answer, it's because the highest priority wasn't a good UX, it was to make sure copilot was integrated into everything.

So long as microsoft management doesn't prioritize performance (and they clearly do not) this is just a natural endstate of any software. If you aren't focusing and paying your developers to make things faster and smoother, you'll get this sort of high memory consumption and janky applications. Making things not janky requires someone in management to care about that.

1a527dd5• 4 months ago

Desktops showing the taskbar positioned on the bottom, top, left and right side of the screen

Welcome to the 90s?

They are so far off track. I'm basically never leaving Windows 10.

gethly• 4 months ago

If Cosmic desktop would be finished, I would now be on Linux. But instead, I am back on Windows 10. Linux desktop is just not there yet. I will either skip Windows 11 and go to 12, or finally end up on Linux by necessity. Looking at the direction of Microsoft and Windows, I think there is no chance for 12 to be a good operating system that I would want to use. I know I can milk Windows 10 for another 5-8 years without any issues. So, we'll see. But then again, there is also HarmonyOS and who knows where *BSD desktop will be and other OSs that might come up. Maybe nVidia will make their own Linux based OS. Or Google. I think this is the direction the OSs are heading towards. The domination of Microsoft and Apple is near its end and if big corporations step in and centralize the completely broken world of linux desktop into few solid distributions, we can have nice things again.

ChoGGi• 4 months ago

Since we're going for rainbows and puppies. I'd like a control panel that isn't tied into the explorer shell.

I'd wish they did a more modular OS (explorer, browser, etc), keep it simple and streamline installing requirements as needed.

flying_sheep• 4 months ago

They have spent, ... I guess like 10+ years?..., for fixing the slowness and bloated functionality of the File Explorer.

I still don't know how to create a native app so inefficient that, it needs to take more than 500 milliseconds to open a directory

jamesgill• 4 months ago

I've never seen a more impressive effort to carry on as if the elephant is, in fact, not in the room.

unlog• 4 months ago

Used Windows since forever because "it just worked for me". Last year switched to Fedora + Plasma, as I started to consider staying on windows was risky.

The feedback/forum tool, has been a thing for years. Submited many bugs that I wanted fixed, and always been ignored.

Thanks, but Im not looking back.

theandrewbailey2• 4 months ago

The feedback/forum tool, has been a thing for years. Submited many bugs that I wanted fixed, and always been ignored.

Just like the dialog that searched for a solution to why my program just crashed. Of all the times I saw that (maybe every other day), it found something precisely 0 times, but wasted my time every time.

Did it work for anyone or am I alone?

JohnFen4• 4 months ago

I'm sure it's done something for someone at some point in time, but never for me and I've never heard of it doing anything for anyone else.

modeless2• 4 months ago

If they actually fix start menu search in addition to giving back the left side taskbar, I'll be pretty happy. I very much doubt they will though.

aksss3• 4 months ago

There are two wolves that live inside the Windows brain - Apple and Linux (yes, two wolves).

On one hand, Windows has pressure to be something that "just works" like an iPad used to be - users can't screw it up. This is what enterprises want for the daily drivers of their massive user populations.

OTOH, Windows has pressure to be this highly customizable tool for savvy high-agency individuals. This is what we all want.

I can empathize with both needs, for sure, but it is a constant war. They're doing alright, considering.

nmstoker• 4 months ago

Overall some potential here, if they follow through, but it's amusing that the first bullet point is essentially "more new surface we can accidently break".

abrookewood• 4 months ago

Too. Fucking. Late.

At work, I'm switching to Mac for the first time in my life. At home, I'm already gaming on Linux. Windows is dead to me.

modzu• 4 months ago

lol who is this guy talking to

lta• 4 months ago

If you had to commit to Windows quality you'd have done so a few decades ago.

Also, Linux (via Android, micro computers everywhere and the vast internet) touches way more lives then Microsoft.

At this point in the article I realized I didn't care one bit and stopped reading

QuadrupleA• 4 months ago

As a 20+ year Windows user now happily running desktop Linux for about a year - too little, too late. This company has completely lost my trust over the past 5+ years, with all the ads, upsells, silent telemetry, bugs, background process mess, forced updates, poor performance, etc.

It's not only steered me off of Windows, but Azure, Office, and anything else with the Microsoft name on it. I'll do my best to steer family and business customers off likewise.

Trust is earned over years, and whoever the execs are that pushed all these shitty short-term squeezes on their customers, the company now gets to pay the reputational price.

alliao2• 4 months ago

msft don't earn trust, they actively butchers it and see who'd stay, it's a little bit like scam letters that are full of spelling mistakes, that's the filter. those that'd still fall for it are exactly the people they're looking for. the strategy have worked very well for a very long time, it's so successful they don't really know what broke the current users, and you can see that in this release. they analysed the feedback and the number 1 fix is to "raise the bar" literally by allowing users to position bar anywhere, nothing organisational, nothing cultural, just close random tickets

snarfy2• 4 months ago

Arch is really good. Wayland works. Gaming works. For any apps that don't work like Visual Studio I run kvm/qemu + unlicensed win11 vm. I do not give a shit my vm says "activate windows"

2026 Year of Linux Desktop?

B1FF_PSUVM• 4 months ago

Windows touches more people’s lives than almost any technology on Earth.

You could skip the "almost" if you had stuck to your guns on Windows Phone. It was a good phone OS, and we could have done without the iOS/Android duopoly, but MS chickened out.

voganmother42• 4 months ago

I heard in windows 12 they transform the task bar into a task triangle! They are being careful not to over promise, but the innovation is coming!

Jare• 4 months ago

I'll believe it when I see it. But I hope I will, I don't want to be cynical.

Back a decade or so, the Visual Studio experience was terrible, the team promised they were going to fix a lot of it, I didn't believe them, and they actually delivered. No VS is not perfect. But it was on a downward spiral and they got it out.

I hope they deliver now, and bring back my inner Windows fan which they eroded and then killed with the abomination that is current Win11.

kp666• 4 months ago

For gods sake, your users is not your unpaid qa.

9967d2cad_askhn• 4 months ago

Honestly he should go back to his country and build something for his people.

hsuduebc22• 4 months ago

I don't want to be just purely negative but I refuse to believe the sentiment of this post. For years they have been told that windows have pretty shit annoying features which they keep implementing and only thing they did was implement more absolutely useless chatbots all over the place. I do not belive that this is genuine effort to making a better product or answer to ongoing massive enshittifaction of microsoft products to squeeze more money. Maybe people started to leave them for Apple and they noticed?

SeanAnderson• 4 months ago

I moved over to Linux a few months ago. Absolutely zero issues. My only thought was, "Wow. Why didn't I do this sooner?" There's nothing Windows can do to bring me back at this point.

kjuulh• 4 months ago

What is apparent from windows in my opinion is a lack of direction. Ask for feedback when something falls outside of common sense, you ask for feedback when you need another point of view. But windows is currently failing at the most essentials, these should be apparent inside Microsoft as well, and should've been for the last few years.

It is not that everything should stay the same, that is one choice, but there needs to be a steward that says, hey our right click menu on the desktop has an SLA of 100ms to open, it doesn't matter which features you put in there, if something causes it to be slow, kill it.

Can I access basic apps that are table stakes for an OS, an editor, screenshots etc without popups for unrelated nonsense. If you fail at that, then as a user I get confused. I am used to just being able to note down some text, why am I asked to transcribe with Copilot or login to microsoft.

It is clear that the adoption of Copilot was measured in activations, and as such was pushed in as many places as possible, simply because they needed all that exposure to meet their targets. Windows was not just a product but a funnel to other offerings and that cannibalized windows even more than it was previously.

I've got a slight bias, as I haven't had windows installed in about 10 years, but when I've helped my family with their issues, it is clear how much of a shitshow it actually is.

Ithildin• 4 months ago

Nothing in this article made me think they even understand the problem. I don't know what I expecting, though. I mean, the first thing they mention is the ability to move the taskbar around? Oh wow. Yeah, they have no idea what's wrong.

WhyNotHugo• 4 months ago

We are introducing the ability to reposition it to the top or sides of your screen, making it [the taskbar] easier to personalize your workspace.

Ehm, what? Windows XP had this feature. Pretty sure that Vista and 7 did too. I had plenty of friends who used the taskbar in non-standard edges.

Did they recently REMOVE the feature and are now bragging about introducing this "new" feature, or am I missing something?

efilife• 4 months ago

You are not missing anything

olavostauros• 4 months ago

this is sum' schizo article writing. totally deviates from the history of reality.

taf2• 4 months ago

Bro Linux gaming is where it’s at - windoze is cooked

chausen• 4 months ago

The first thing being different taskbar positions after that emotional “we hear you” speech was peak comedy.

smusamashah2• 4 months ago

I am a Windows user since Windows 98. State of windows currently really hurts.

This article is so disconnected and uninterested in the actual needs of users who despise windows in its current form today.

drooopy• 4 months ago

How kind of them to allow me to do something so basic that I had been able to do since the Windows 95 days up until 4 years ago when they inexplicably decided to take it away from me.

oybng• 4 months ago

Windows will never be 7 again. It will never be 2000. Wake up

alliao2• 4 months ago

still no QA lol

saintfire• 4 months ago

We are introducing the ability to reposition it to the top or sides of your screen, making it easier to personalize your workspace.
options when to update
less horrible and slow file explorer

Finally, a desktop with feature parity of an OS from the year 2000.

Good on them for hearing complaints after 4+ years and addressing some of them.. maybe. They say they will at least.

mixmastamyk• 4 months ago

    s/2000/1995/

VerifiedReports7• 4 months ago

This is so depressingly off-base and wrong-headed.

It completely ignores the huge UI regressions Windows has suffered over the last... 20 years?

Windows's UI ineptitude has reached crippling levels. Application windows lack title bars, so you frequently don't know what application you're looking at. Applications lack menus; critical functions are scattered all over the place behind hamburger buttons... and sometimes even further, under a "more" item in the menu the hamburger invokes (try saving a file you're viewing in Edge).

Applications eschew the tidy, readily comprehensible, familiar, and efficient File dialog in favor of a bizarre text-based pane consisting of crude, unlabeled boxes and horizontal lines... with no context as to where you are in the file system.

Then there are the baffling functional regressions. Here's one that wastes my time daily: You can't select multiple files in Explorer and say "Open with." WTF, this was old hat 30 years ago. Want to open several PNGs in Photoshop? NOPE, not anymore!

Just dismal.

askonomm2• 4 months ago

Yea I don't believe or trust a single word coming out of that malware company.

askonomm2• 4 months ago

More control over widgets and feed experiences

More control over ads? The whole widgets screen is quite literally just ads.

queuebert2• 4 months ago

It's very telling that the very first feature listed is that you can position the taskbar on the bottom, top, left and right side of the screen.

Can I change it's color, too? Amazing! /s

Microsoft appears completely bereft of creativity and innovation now.

belviewreview• 4 months ago

Remember, Microsoft's goal is to turn Windows into an AI agent that keeps all your data in the cloud, that it can use that data for endless money-making purposes like advertising, and that you pay for with a dozen different subscriptions.

Microsoft will continue to move in that direction in various overt and covert manners, and any so-called responding to what users wants is just a charade.

gmponyo• 4 months ago

Too little too late.

Havoc• 4 months ago

This is a smoke break before they proceed to ram more AI and subscription model down your throat.

Archit3ch• 4 months ago

On the positive side, they added MIDI 2.0, which you can use in live sets Windows will restart in the middle of. :)

loeg• 4 months ago

When are they going to walk back the deliberate deprecation of the vast majority of PCs that ran Windows 10 fine but do not meet the unnecessary and completely arbitrary hardware requirements imposed by Windows 11? I mean, the performance and AI and taskbar stuff also demonstrates bad judgement, but I really can't get past the Win11 thing.

iAMkenough2• 4 months ago

I started laughing out loud uncontrollably when I got to this point:

Craft
To us, craft is the discipline that turns functional products into loved ones through usability, polish, coherence and refinement.
This year, you will see us invest in raising the bar on the overall usability of the experience, with more opportunities for personalization, less noise, less distraction and more control across the OS. That includes being thoughtful about how and where we bring AI into Windows, leading with transparency, choice and control, so that new capabilities enhance the experience rather than complicate it.

whatever1• 4 months ago

MacBook Neo will eat their lunch.

Linux support for video games will eat their dinner.

tomxor• 4 months ago

Go back to Win98 UI, I know it will never happen but can you imagine...

At this point I genuinely think people would be blown away at how much of a functional improvement it would be.

There would also be a lot of bewilderment for the younger generations, and people who aren't interested in actually using computers who don't think it looks "sleek" enough or whatever. But in terms of day to day quality of life, those old UIs just got the fuck out the way, and were obvious when you had to interact with it. I have some earned hate for the underlying windows OS, but in terms of UI and desktop, we didn't know what we had until it was taken away.

temporallobe• 4 months ago

The obnoxious behavior of Windows update is the single biggest reason I left the platform over a decade ago. Too little too late for me.

Also there is one huge glaring omission in the article. The sneaky integration of ads embedded in the OS. I have thankfully never experienced this myself since I abandoned Windows before the ads became a thing.

I sometimes have to use Enterprise Windows 11 professionally, but I can’t ever see myself going back to it for any kind of personal computing. Basically Microsoft had a good thing and decided to enshitify it to death.

samiv• 4 months ago

* We're going to make sure we double down on our dark patterns slamming our obnoxious account requirements in your face every chance we get. We'll also make sure to "accidentally forget" any "unfavourable" setting you might have turned to your liking just to make sure you get the best experience we want.

* We're going to keep shoving AI and copilot in your face in every corner of the system whether you want it or not. It's what we want after all. Please subscribe to copilot now or 3 days later.

* We're going to continue vibe coding core system components and interface elements in JavaScript to minimize our developer costs. Just get over it already.

tw04• 4 months ago

So still nothing about local accounts, or disabling copilot entirely.

This is basically: we’re doing the absolute minimum possible to claim we’re listening to users while still pursuing exactly what we were doing before. We realized we just need to boil the frog a little slower.

If they were hoping this would help shake microslop, they’re in trouble.

thunfischtoast2• 4 months ago

Or random telemetry, or random network usage of some anonymous service that leaves you unable to pretty much do anything internet-related until that service has done it's thing.

_ink_• 4 months ago

More taskbar customization, including vertical and top positions: [...] We are introducing the ability to reposition it to the top or sides of your screen, making it easier to personalize your workspace.

This already existed. You took it away. If anything, you are back peddling and re-introducing it. But I don't care anymore. Made the switch to Linux and don't look back.

pier25• 4 months ago

I'll believe it when I see it.

gjvc• 4 months ago

ended with windows 2000

rsanheim3• 4 months ago

If you believe this has any long term staying power at MSFT, I have a bridge to sell you paid for with MSFT stock funded by quarterly earnings reports.

lykahb• 4 months ago

I wonder if the incentive structure shaped by the internal MS metrics has been updated to reflect this commitment. Otherwise, little is going to change.

UberFly• 4 months ago

This effort by Microsoft is so limp. I don't think at this point they'll ever be able to create a desktop experience for users over their own needs.

spl757• 4 months ago

Reading this from the perspective of someone that hasn't used windows as a desktop for over 20 years, this reads like a list of features they removed over the years that they are putting back in, but announcing it like it's all new. What a load of bullshit.

mrandish• 4 months ago

The taskbar being nerfed is the main reason I haven't upgraded to Windows 11. The vertical taskbar he mentions first is critical but they need to bring back Quick Launch folders too.

nailer• 4 months ago

Remove the ads from windows professional.

throwaway888abc• 4 months ago

First April already ?

LASR• 4 months ago

Just get rid of cheapstake garbage all around the OS and you’re golden.

wltr2• 4 months ago

I wish them what I wished them when Windows Vista was released, and I said to my friend something like ‘huh, we have all that in Linux’ What I meant is GUI, as I was just a beginner. Today, I don’t know, I really wanted to write LOL, like with the biggest possible font size, and some GIF that supports it, but we’re not like that here, right? So, again, I just wish them that I wished them that many years ago. And for the Linux desktop year to finally come. As it feels like we’re there already. I don’t see any point in willingly using Windows for an average Joe.

tempodox2• 4 months ago

How do they expect anyone to believe they can improve when they show a complete lack of understanding what they are doing wrong. The only message I get is that they think their audience consists of comlete morons. So nothing has changed at all.

falldrown• 4 months ago

No surprise. Microsoft PowerToys took 4 years to implement "select UI language" feature. https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/issues/7670

0dayman• 4 months ago

piece of surveillance garbage

eviks3• 4 months ago

...is close to non-existent

Otherwise it wouldn't take years to unbreak the simple stuff like taskbar positioning!

Thank you for holding us to a high standard

"We" apologize for failing to do that!

moving core Windows experiences to the WinUI3 framework.

Is that the framework that's incapable of the most basic frameworky thing - displaying non-blurry text and hopes that high-dpi screens will save us?

Enhancing Search: Delivering faster, more accurate results with consistent search experience across Windows surfaces Substantially lower latency for search,

Everything has existed for many years and solved the speed/latency! Some file managers were even smart enough to integrate it!

Improving the Start and Taskbar experience: Making these core Windows surfaces more reliable, flexible and personalized

Similarly, Windhawk already exist, take that power and make it built-in and easier to mod/apply!

P.S. By the way, when have we retired programs and apps?

File Explorer is one of the most used surfaces

gloosx• 4 months ago

They had copilot in the SNIPPING TOOL? I really thought it is a meme

ilitirit• 4 months ago

Too little, too late. In fact, in this post they seem to be committing to keeping it as bad (or even making it even worse) for my use case.

I've used Windows since 3.1. Win 11 was the straw that broke the camel's back. I moved to CachyOS a few months ago and I honestly can't find a reason to switch back.

csomar2• 4 months ago

Windows is no longer on the dominant position it was 20 years ago when it had 90%+ marketshare: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide...

It's not sitting at 60-65% and has been slowly bleeding for the last 20 years or so. In my opinion, anyone who have figured out how to move his processes, has left the building and never checked back.

Now Windows is being attacked aggressively from multiple fronts:

- macbook neo. Apple is projected to sell roughly 5million of these this year. This is a segment that couldn't previously move out of Windows because of cost not Office.

- improvement in Linux (Desktop/Gaming): This will eat another chunk for people whom Linux didn't function previously.

- HarmonyOS Next. This is underestimated by the rest of the Western world. I think by 5-10 years most of China would have moved to its own OS. Windows highest marketshare is in Asia.

The idea that Microsoft can exist on Azure/Office alone is not valid, in my opinion. Especially for Office, Windows is your portal to the rest of Microsoft stack. If you use HarmonyOS, you'll like use their own Office system. From there, they'll own the rest of the stack.

tl;dr: MSFT is screwed and they know it. They are also going to do nothing about it.

elmac• 4 months ago

Show it, don’t say it

pipes• 4 months ago

Just get rid of the ads and stop presenting passive aggressive sign up screens that don't have a no button just a remind me in 3 days button.

Oh and stop resetting preferences on update.

suby• 4 months ago

Quality is not the issue. We should be more specific - Microsoft has been consciously employing dark patterns that they know will be harmful to users but they do not care because their incentives are misaligned. Employees of Microsoft have surely had meetings scheming of ways to degrade user experience for some internal metric they are trying to hit. A decade+ of conscious, willful decisions which negatively impact users.

I personally will never forgive them for uploading the entirety of my users dir to OneDrive without asking for permission. They're --still-- doing this. Whatever decision making process they have in place that not only cooked this scheme up, but allowed it to continue for years must be broken beyond repair. It's contemptuous, backwards, and hostile to users. It cannot be condemned enough.

This blog post talks about taskbar positioning and vaguely gesturing at quality, which is whatever. I'm not mad about removing features or even a higher incidence of bugs. I'm mad about hostile dark patterns that they have consciously chosen to employ at an ever increasing rate. I don't think you can fix this without drastic company wide changes.

For as long as I live, if I have a choice, I will avoid Microsoft products. They cannot be trusted.

Gud• 4 months ago

Why will you not “forgive them”? That is a logical consequence of using a Microsoft operating system.

rmunn10• 4 months ago

Making (and uploading) a copy of your data, which might include private documents or corporate secrets that you're contractually obligated NOT to disclose, without asking you permission? That's a "logical consequence" of using a Microsoft OS? If so, then that's the best argument I've heard for not trusting Microsoft.

xandrius• 4 months ago

It is not and let's not be silly now.

samrus• 4 months ago

I dont want to suffer the consequences of using a microsoft operating system. Id rather use linux or even mac

rmunn10• 4 months ago

Precisely. When I noticed the vagueness of most of those points, I did a Ctrl+F for "OneDrive". It produced zero results. Which is all I needed to know about Microsoft's sincerity. In fact, let me quote the first two items on that list in their entirety, then comment on them:

More taskbar customization, including vertical and top positions: Repositioning the taskbar is one of the top asks we’ve heard from you. We are introducing the ability to reposition it to the top or sides of your screen, making it easier to personalize your workspace.

Yes. Not being able to reposition the taskbar is definitely the biggest problem that users have been complaining about. They don't care about Recall trying to store screenshots in an insecure database, or OneDrive uploading copies of all their data without asking permission. It's being able to put the taskbar on the side of the screen that they care about most.

(To be fair, people do care about this and it's not at all a bad thing that they're giving more options back. It's just not deserving of the #1 spot).

Integrating AI where it’s most meaningful, with craft and focus: You will see us be more intentional about how and where Copilot integrates across Windows, focusing on experiences that are genuinely useful and well‑crafted. As part of this, we are reducing unnecessary Copilot entry points, starting with apps like Snipping Tool, Photos, Widgets and Notepad.

Notice this does not say "You will have one checkbox, prominently placed in the Settings app, that says 'Turn Copilot off entirely, remove it from my computer, and never mention it again until I uncheck this box'." Nope, they're still going to push Copilot in unnecessary places, they're just going to be more subtle about it.

eproxus• 4 months ago

It's basically the blog post version of "Yes | Remind me later". I have very little trust at this point that anything tied to short term financial interest will change (OneDrive, AI, Recall, Microsoft accounts vs local accounts, data collection etc.). Obviously (to us, but apparently not to them) it is ultimately tied to long term financial interest. I don't believe they are able to see that based on the decisions they've been taking the last decade.

Panoramix• 4 months ago

All the things you wrote, but also quality. Quality is a giant issue. Garbage usability. Excel is the only Microsoft product I thoroughly respect. The amount of things you can't do in PowerPoint for example is mind blowing.

alok-g• 4 months ago

Excel has many classical dialog boxes with text that becomes too small on high resolution displays. May be they fixed in newer versions (mine is 2021).

Excel is better than other spreadsheet alternatives I have seen though, but is mo longer a software I call trouble-free.

butz• 4 months ago

I hope to see Microsoft Account required to run calculator.

gamesbrainiac• 4 months ago

Why is there no off button for AI? What if I just don't want it?

Your commitment to quality is skin deep.

roflcopter69• 4 months ago

Maybe a bit of a weird analogy, but y'all know about the basic advice to not come back to your abusive ex? Don't trust Microsoft to always respect you as an user, even if they now are trying to tell you they'll change and do so again. It's all just damage control PR speak.

rock_artist• 4 months ago

I see people mentioning Linux. And indeed Linux in general is now fairly compatible, especially in the age of web apps.

Still, each time I install Ubuntu I discover unpolished side of Linux that makes it harder to recommend to the non technical user. After install I always need to figure something out, with Wayland the graphic stack is complex so even basic remote control (including the built in one) becomes a complex task.

For governments: We already see some shift to OSS and non-US from all sort of reasons.

For businesses: Tech companies are more agile to changing stacks and devices. But traditional business are less easy to switch.

For private users: Younger generation will shape the future of the above. But there’s no real OS lock in today for general use. The MacBook Neo is great investment by Apple. Google might also introduce eventually something that fuse ChromeOS and Android in a way that will spark this discussion again. AI companies already shaping some ideas that will change OS workflows (yet OS product managers shouldn’t try to shove things as it is now - also mentioned in the above post)

Anyway, future of OS will be very interesting

chickensong• 4 months ago

I've been a Windows user since version 1.0 that I installed from 14 floppy disks on my IBM 286. It's been an interesting ride. I think Windows has had 4 peaks so far: Windows 95, NT, 2000, and 7. As one of their older customers, I feel mostly anger and sadness towards Microsoft. I get it, B2B pays and the average user is a plebe, but what a shame.

Say what you want, but Microsoft has always explored and pushed boundaries of computing, but the company's aggressive nature is ultimately their downfall IMHO. Catering to business needs is understandable, but if all your relationships are adversarial, you're doomed to fail because nobody loves you.

Taskbar position? El-Oh-El. Sucks to be tone-deaf I guess. Good luck with adding more widget controls.

fortyseven• 4 months ago

Switched to Linux just before Windows 11 released, and I have zero regrets. You couldn't fucking pay me to go back. Linux isn't perfect, but I feel like I actually own my machine. And I can still do 99.9% of what I used to do.

wartywhoa23• 4 months ago

Too late, M$! The ship has sailed.

As a happy Ubuntu user for 3 years who finally transitioned to macOS, I can't care less about the abomination that Windows became.

Ericson2314• 4 months ago

Just in time for https://github.com/nix-windows/nix-windows-demo, heh

yammosk• 4 months ago

I am stuck on an arbitrary version of the Win 11 Preview from some years ago because at some point they decided my machine couldn't get updates. No technical reason just business. I can't update to the retail Win 11 and I can't downgrade to Win 10 without wiping my machine. I don't care about whatever new commitment they have, because it is clearly not to me.

croes• 4 months ago

Fix your start menu.

Typing three letters of the program name, seeing the program I want to start, typing the forth letter, and it’s gone.

Instead many suggestions for a web search

blippage• 4 months ago

You can have anything you want. You get what you design for.

However, saying you're committed is not the same as being committed.

Furrowing your brow and saying you'll try harder, even when you mean it, doesn't necessarily work, either.

It needs trade-offs, and a willingness for abandon certain things as trade-offs. It requires an honest assessment.

Stop updating the system every 5 minutes, stop with the advertising, stop with the user is the product mentality. Stop changing the interface. Stop with requiring a user account. Stop with the all your data are belong to us. Simplify.

None of this will happen, of course. Corporate imperatives militate against it.

Wanna improve Windows? How about having a two-year release cadence? Developers can get a technology preview, full of cavaet emptor achey breaky changes if they want. This allows them to develop for the next release.

Sync the development tools (more importantly the libraries) like C++ in with the release. Include those libraries. The pay-off is, as if by magic, if a user downloads a program for Windows N, it will work. No extra libraries will be required because they'll already be included in the OS.

waynecochran• 4 months ago

People are still using Windows?

vendiddy• 4 months ago

I've come to expect that, every time I update and OS or app to a newer version, it's going to be slower and more bloated.

Why can't it be the opposite? Why can't I expect an update to run faster than the previous version?

nrclark• 4 months ago

If Windows wants to commit to quality and user experience, they can do it by moving closer to the experience that made a generation fall in love with it.

  - Turn Notepad back into a text editor.
  - Remove ads from your operating system. Yes it feels like a license to print money, but it makes your users hate your product. 
  - Stop charging money for Freecell and Minesweeper.
  - Converge your three control panels back into one. The classic control panel was not broken.
  - Drop the mandatory Microsoft User accounts. Nobody wants this except your bean counters.

When 3 out of these 5 happen, I'll believe that Microsoft is actually recommitting to their users.

sto11z• 4 months ago

The only way they can pull this off is by creating a brand new OS from scratch which will be free from all the legacy bullshit that has been plaguing this platform since forever.

justin662• 4 months ago

Nothing along the lines of just turning off AI and invasive telemetry. All that is available to users who have an entire corporate staff constantly managing their group policy settings, but doesn't seem available to the average schmoe.

Never mind just using the computer without a Microsoft account.

Faster and more dependable File Explorer

I wonder how many PhDs that will take.

skeeter2020• 4 months ago

Too little, too late. After 30+ years of windows as a user 20+ as a developer I'm done. Aside from some infrequent gaming (and even that could largely be de-windowed) you've lost me completely. Your developer experience got _so good_ there for a while I was willing to put up with a lot of churn and dead-end tech. VB was so accessible, and .NET 2 (and then 4.x) framework was a great foundation. I even liked your phone OS! But then the personality split within MS seemed to grow. To over-simplify developers still seemed appreciated but consumers appeared outright hated, viewed as cattle to slaughter for immediate & personal gains. Then your technology story fragmented and got weirdly disjointed. Azure initially looked great as a platform when everyone else focused on lower-level infrastructure, but you couldn't get that right, and then inexplictably decided to build all sorts of wild niche products (services? platforms?) on top of it, often multiple versions. Meanwhile windows was allowed to become... I don't really know, a fast-food/slot machine/1986 telescreen embedded in my home and work? And to top it off the few places you moved towards others (WSL, terminal, .NET core) you helped give me the tools to get OFF of windows. In hindsight I'd say the future became clear when I learned about how SQL Server was reimplemented on Linux for Azure. This was an important, concrete demonstration how if something like SQL Server didn't need Windows, nothing did.

thisisidiotic• 4 months ago

pfft. trust arrives on foot but leaves on horseback.

EldrRoot2• 4 months ago

The fact that Windows cannot even “Shutdown by default” when the user wishes to shut it down is a testament to the pile of garbage that it is. Trillions of dollars and you can’t even collect user data in an efficient way (which is the whole point of Windows, from what I understand now). No one asked for Recall, and shoving Copilot down our throats.

It would be fine if the underlying engineering had any sort of merit. It doesn’t. They cannot even handle scheduling in asymmetric SOC setups (big-little, dual CCD with 3D V-cache). Linux and macOS have solved this years ago.

The only access you can give to an anticheat is exactly what you’d also give to an antimalware - unnecessarily broad. Does this trillion dollar company even understand the basics of security?

I bought an Xbox Ally X to play game pass games on the go, and I kid you not, I couldn’t get to a point where I was installing games until 17 hours of ownership. In stark contrast, I was downloading a game at minute 16 with a steam Deck.

Once Nvidia solves for the DX12 performance in Linux, I will exorcise my computer of Windows for good. And for the games that do not support anticheat on Linux, well, I’ll just not play them. I have zero dependence on commercial crapware that Adobe releases. Looking forward to living without Windows!

I wish Windows ceases to exist in consumer hardware. Stick to enterprise laptops and stay there.

Newbie4E• 4 months ago

Give consumers the choice of a perpetual licence (LTSC-like), at a cost. Optionally, give them the equivalent of EntraID for consumers, a Microsoft account that is never tied to the advertising ecosystem, also at a cost. Keep fixing bugs. That's all.

fortranfiend• 4 months ago

I'll believe it when I see the quality increase.

gradientsrneat• 4 months ago

As other commenters have alluded to, due to the timing, this is likely in response to the "Microslop" nickname catching on.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47216047

Microsoft's PR team is in damage control mode right now.

Some commenters have pointed out that it's in response to the release of the Macbook Neo. I would argue that, if people were satisfied with the Windows OS, they wouldn't feel the need to jump ship. Ditto for Linux/SteamOS.

Other likely confounding factors:

The unnecessarily different hardware requirements of Windows 11, combined with Windows 10 Home reaching EOL in the United States, likely left some users feeling alienated.

The temporary-but-still-painful hardware cost crunch puts more pressure on software developers to improve their software on existing hardware rather than hoping their users will upgrade.

zimmund• 4 months ago

Honestly, it feels like McDonald's commiting to food quality. At the end of the day it's still a bland burger.

mvdwoord• 4 months ago

Only need Windows occasionally but only use it in a VM nowadays, using Win11 LTSC / IoT with massgrave.dev activation. Of course that is as a private person, not a company. Employees remain screwed.

mancerayder• 4 months ago

There's no accident. The OS isn't led astray by overzealous product managers or 'out of touch' with users. I think we are projecting our own experiences in our own companies.

I think instead there's a deliberate attempt to transform the entire experience into an agentic-driven UI to replace the organization of the UI elements. In other words, tell the AI you want to open X, you want Y changed in settings, etc. Users don't want this, and it doesn't matter - it turns Windows into a sort of ad-serving, auto-updating, spying operating system that behaves more like an appliance.

I'm looking forward to ditching it as my only reason was gaming on my Nvidia hardware, and now Linux is ready (or so they tell me).

But people raised on this 'new' Windows experience will never have known anything different. People-who-are-not-us, the average people, don't mind ads, being spied on, and being told what to watch.

Isn't popularity of TikTok, the rampant posting of personal stuff on social media, and the like enough evidence?

We're going to all turn into Richard Stallman (although I heard a rumor bathing is as distasteful as Windows to him).

000ooo000• 4 months ago

We are introducing the ability to reposition it [taskbar] to the top or sides of your screen

*reintroducing

Windows is terminal. Taskbar on the top isn't changing that. It has product manager rot. Good luck ousting the people with the power these days.

dplesh• 4 months ago

Been on Windows 10 for some years now. I was about to install Ubuntu on an empty partition and start porting my PC to it. Then I saw this article.

I think I'll return to moving my PC to Linux :)

tsoukase• 4 months ago

The elephant in the room with Windows is that they are a bunch of bloated binary malware from the kernel to userland, that, not only cause a massive security hole wide open and spy on users, but we don't know what else happens under our nose.

I am of the opinion that if the OS is not open source, it's not your device.

zecg• 4 months ago

What came through was the voice of people who care deeply about Windows and want it to be better.

Fuck your weasel words

Friedduck• 4 months ago

There is so much wrong with Windows. So many neglected corners that have existed for decades and their response is to add AI.

Fix settings. Fix UI customization. Fix notifications. Fix search. Fix multitasking and network blocking. Fix sleep behavior.

I could go on. They need an entire year of house-cleaning before they add AI.

azv_• 4 months ago

After downgrading from Windows 11 to 10 last year, I got rid of my last Windows PC in favor of Mac mini. It's too late for me, I lost all remaining trust in MS, I'm not looking back. I might get the Steam machine if it's well received after release.

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