MacBook Pro with faster performance and new features for pros

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/07/apple-updates-macbook-pro-with-faster-performance-and-new-features-for-pros/

by briandear • 8 years ago

889 1172 8 years ago

apple.com

Camillo• 8 years ago

If you fix the keyboard, I'll buy a new MBP. If you don't fix it, I won't. I have zero interest in any other changes.

Hates_• 8 years ago

Apparantly these have their new "3rd Generation" butterfly keyboard, whatever that means.

ceejayoz• 8 years ago

Presumably not the "costing us a bunch of money in Applecare repairs" version.

mcphage3• 8 years ago

They updated the keyboard (Yay!) but max RAM for the 13" models is still 16GB (Boo!)

[edited]

BillinghamJ3• 8 years ago

Did you... read the link... at all?

Right at the very top of the article:

Now Featuring Up to 6-Core Processors and 32GB of Memory, True Tone Display and the Apple T2 Chip

mcphage3• 8 years ago

Ha! Sorry, I glossed over the 15" models, and looked at the 13" models, which are still stuck at 16GB.

mizzack• 8 years ago

Only 13" is limited to 16GB. 15" moved to DDR4 and 32GB max.

mcphage3• 8 years ago

Right, sorry about that. I was looking at the 13" models; I didn't think they had supported different amounts of RAM previously.

zbentley• 8 years ago

They updated the keyboard (Yay!)

Let's hope some of the mechanical issues cleared up.

Also, I really miss having real keys instead of a touchpad. I never knew how much I subconsciously relied upon a "thunk" from the ESC key. Remapping (my keys and muscle memory) is an arduous process.

eej713• 8 years ago

If only they might restore the escape key in the 15 inch model...

boobsbr• 8 years ago

Seriously, how do you exit vim insert mode without an ESC key?

grzm2• 8 years ago

https://vi.stackexchange.com/questions/300/other-ways-to-exi...

eej713• 8 years ago

The situation with emacs isn't much better!

madeofpalk7• 8 years ago

The Touch Bar has a soft escape key in the same position. It takes a bit to get used to, but I found it find as a non-frequent vim/ESC-key user.

hugg• 8 years ago

you can bind for example caps lock globally on mac to esc, thats what i did

Gonzih• 8 years ago

You can use Ctrl+[

mantas• 8 years ago

I'm yet to see a serious VIM user who didn't remap ESC to caps lock yet. Regardless of keyboard configuration.

pilif• 8 years ago

Either by pressing the virtual "Esc" key displayed on the TouchBar (that's what I do), or by using Ctrl-[, or by remapping any other key to ESC

cnlwsu• 8 years ago

The escape key is there in terminal in same position it would be if there was no touchbar. Its been a complete non issue that people who do not have the touchbar like to complain about.

jek0• 8 years ago

inoremap jk <esc>

lemoncucumber• 8 years ago

Around when they introduced the first touchbar models, they finally made it so you can remap caps lock to escape which I'd been wanting for years. So at least there's that option.

BugsJustFindMe3• 8 years ago

This complaint always strikes me as trolling of the highest order. As though a 2018 laptop should definitely be designed to accommodate software structured for the limitations of 1970. In 2050, when the world has moved to direct neural interfaces, vi trolls on HN will still be saying "but my escape key!"

I've never failed to hit the software escape key on my 15. Not one time since the past rev was released. What is that, six months? Not once in six months. I just put my finger in exactly the same place as I would on any other keyboard and it always works.

publicfig4• 8 years ago

I really think that dismissing this complaint as "trolling" is odd. The escape key is used in a lot of applications, not just vim. It's used to cancel out of actions, it's used to often dismiss modals, it's used across a lot of software for a lot of purposes. And I'm personally someone that misses the key often enough that I wish it was still there. And the escape button on the touchbar is actually not at the same place as it is on other keyboards, which makes me think you've maybe not used one of these new touchbars and are arguing just for the sake of it.

ybrah2• 8 years ago

Anyone who uses a keyboard to navigate their computer (most software professionals worth their salt) hit the escape key often enough to warrant it as a complaint. Try not using your mouse for your computer

nordsieck• 8 years ago

As though a 2018 laptop should definitely be designed to accommodate software structured for the limitations of 1970.

Hardware should be designed to accommodate the software that is actually being run on it, regardless of when it was first written.

mschaef8• 8 years ago

Seems like a nice differentiator for the 'Pro' models might be to give them both the physical F/escape-keys _and_ the touchbar in an additional row.

masklinn4• 8 years ago

That's what I always thought. The touch bar could be an interesting/useful addition to f-keys, but it's god-awful at being f-keys.

mFixman2• 8 years ago

I just remap Caps Lock to the escape key.

cimmanom5• 8 years ago

But then you can't use it for Ctrl!

barrowclift• 8 years ago

I highly encourage mapping the Escape key to the Caps Lock key for a couple days and seeing how it feels. I gave it a spin last year out of curiosity and have since fallen in love with it. My poor pinky no longer has to frequently stretch out to the farthest upper left reaches of the keyboard!

If you're on macOS, you can do this in System Preferences > Keyboard > Modifier Keys... and selecting the "Escape" in the Caps Lock dropdown.

jasonlotito3• 8 years ago

I've been using Caps Lock for CTRL for years now. Instead of Caps Lock for Escape, in Vim, I use jj and that has served me well. I mention this because there are others out there that have already remapped Caps Lock, and mapping to escape might not work well for them.

originalbryan22• 8 years ago

This guy ️for president. Took me several weeks to adjust. One of the best computing changes I've ever made.

eej713• 8 years ago

Thanks... unfortunately I've already co-opted the caps lock key to be the control key... a common thing for emacs users to do. Now I need to find another home for esc. shakes fist at sky

samsolomon• 8 years ago

Ars said they didn't know the status of a 15-inch without Touch Bar. I take it we'll never see a 15-inch without it?

ebbv• 8 years ago

I wouldn't say never, but they haven't given up on it yet.

uptown• 8 years ago

32gb MAX ram is a nice change, and the true-tone display is a positive. Really wish Apple were in the nVidia camp instead of the ATI camp.

abledon3• 8 years ago

yeah... nice alternative for deep learning: https://lambdal.com/raw-configurator?product=tensorbook

kiki_jiki• 8 years ago

I wonder how's the battery life with an i9.

bildung• 8 years ago

According to the article it's the same as 2017, thanks to a bigger battery.

imron2• 8 years ago

Battery life with a 2017 model is horrible, especially if you are using anything that requires using the discrete graphics card.

Not expecting anything great from the new models on this front.

tomduncalf2• 8 years ago

Any advice on getting my lemon 2017 (multiple faults) replaced with a new model rather than another 2017?

axxl• 8 years ago

Apple will swap a device for the latest model if it fails and is repaired for the same reason 3 times . It’s called “crewing” (or maybe “cruing”?) I don’t know the spelling. You have to get it repaired by Apple 3 times though.

madeofpalk7• 8 years ago

CRU-ing. Customer Replacement Unit.

There's no hard and fast 'three repairs' rule, but that's generally the rule of thumb that employees stick by.

jordache2• 8 years ago

Lol that main image showing the laptop with a USBC -> display dongle... at least they are being representative.

jordache2• 8 years ago

damn OP changing the link.. here's the original article linked, completed with the utter fail of marketing image

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/apples-new-2018-macb...

dbbk3• 8 years ago

Like they said, Apple are being representative, and also what else could they do? There aren't any HDMI -> USB-C cables as far as I'm aware.

stirlo• 8 years ago

Good to see improvements in the keyboard, surprising they didn’t just go back to the pre 2015 version which has no issues at all though

cimmanom5• 8 years ago

They can't because the body is too shallow for it.

huangbong• 8 years ago

Doubling down on the Meme Bar. Yikes. Did they at least add some kind of haptic response for the new generation touch bar?

berberous2• 8 years ago

If they ever do decide to kill the touch bar, I'd expect it to occur along with a more significant rev where the whole design gets updated. This is more of an interim spec update -- not even announced at a keynote!

masklinn4• 8 years ago

It's not that minor though, given they dropped LPDDR3 and switched to DDR4.

Oddly they still advertise 30 days standby.

no1youknowz• 8 years ago

The new keyboard has the same dimensions and look as its two predecessors, but the keys feel just a little bit different. They're quieter, for one thing. They have a softer, less click-y feel that is a little closer to the pre-2016 models' chiclet keys. We found the new keyboard to be a little nicer to type on, but it's not a radical difference. It's unlikely to convert the detractors, but it's a welcome iteration for those who liked or didn't mind the previous butterfly keyboards.

I'm going to wait a year, maybe 18 months for feedback before I consider upgrading. Why they couldn't grab a 2012-2015 model and upgrade the guts? No touchbar, smaller touchpad than the newer macbooks, but updated specs? Call it Macbook Developer... We build the software for the "Pros" after all.

I just don't get it.

peterjonesio3• 8 years ago

Seems we share thoughts on this. I think a macbook developer model with the spec you mention would be quite popular.

varrock• 8 years ago

The 15-inch 2015 Retina model is no longer being sold on their website, too. It was there as an option for some time, but it appears this new update called for getting rid of it. I was planning on saving up to finance that as my next laptop purchase, but seems as if I'll have to go through a third party seller.

skuhn• 8 years ago

The mid-2015 model (which I still use and think is way better) is over 3 years old now. It was always bound to be discontinued eventually.

There are still some available in the Apple Store under the clearance section (https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/clearanc...). Definitely your last chance to get this model new from Apple.

mgkimsal7• 8 years ago

Bought a 2016, then returned it and got a refurb 2015. My only regret was getting the 500g SSD vs waiting for a 1tb model (which my friend got). The refurb levels were changing daily, and I kept missing the 1tb models, so I pulled the trigger on a 500g.

Didn't care for the touch bar - yes, hey, apparently all the cool kids 'remap' their ESC key, and many did it I guess 20 years ago(!), but I've got decades of muscle memory to overcome. But beyond that, yeah sure it was thinner and sexier, but had a 20% smaller battery, and for the work I do, I guess I'm not 'pro' enough, but never managed more than about 4 hours max of real work.

The 2015 model was 'good enough' in most respects, and better in others (keyboard, battery), and... cheaper.

Always interested to see and try the newer models, but probably won't upgrade in 2018 or 2019 without some massive reason to do so.

EDIT - well, the 32g option might be a worthwhile reason to upgrade. And the battery looks slightly larger than the 2016 model.

SyneRyder3• 8 years ago

And worth noting the 2015 15-inch MBP they've discontinued had the old non-butterfly keyboards. The old style keyboards are gone, Apple is 100% in on the keyboards they currently have a defect service program on. [1]

(Edit: Though these new MBPs apparently have a new third generation keyboard, so not exactly identical.)

[1] https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m...

alwillis2• 8 years ago

The 15-inch 2015 Retina model is no longer being sold on their website, too.

Check Apple's refurb store: https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/macb...

Also, Woot: https://computers.woot.com/plus/refurbished-macbooks-macbook...

r0fl2• 8 years ago

They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. Apple has to make changes that will sell more laptops to the masses to maximize shareholder value.

The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Better to focus on the 90% of customers who buy products and make up 10% of the complaints then to focus on the 10% of customers who make up 90% of the complaints.

nailer4• 8 years ago

The niche developer/macrumors posters

It's not just developers and MacRumors posters. Joe Rogan - the comedian and MMA commentator - did a massive unprompted rant on how poor (and he didn't use the word 'poor') the Apple keyboard was on his recent podcast (3rd most popular podcast in the world http://www.itunescharts.net/us/charts/podcasts/).

The keyboard affects anyone who types. It's not a niche group of obsessives at all.

_bxg14• 8 years ago

The Macbook Pro has been the go-to software developer machine for years now, and that segment is seeing a massive exodus after the touch bar launch. I don't know how big a percentage that is of total sales, but it can't just be a trivial niche.

Cthulhu_3• 8 years ago

You say that but it's the vocal but happy 10% that can sway the 90% to buy it. Mac wouldn't have been as big as it is today without its fans. The ones that complain are your best customers, because the ones that don't just walk away without giving you feedback as to why they walk away. The 90% is too indifferent to speak up.

bunderbunder2• 8 years ago

The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does.

Haven't done a survey, but quite a few folks I know who work at Mac shops report that their employers have been steering clear of the new MacBooks and just trying to keep the older models they already have alive, while also looking seriously into the feasibility of switching to PCs running Linux if they don't get their act together.

Making the keyboard reliable would help, but that touchbar is also a legitimate ergonomic concern for anyone who uses software that requires you to be banging on F-keys all day.

neya• 8 years ago

This is speculation at best, not a fact. There's no data to indicate that developers aren't the 90% customers.

endorphone3• 8 years ago

The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does

The "niche developer/macrumors posters" were extremely happy with it before, and were hearty advocates of it.

Further, I would say that developers/enthusiasts comprise a very high percentage of macbook purchasers.

jetsnoc5• 8 years ago

In the article they cite the MBP as being the most popular notebook for developers so this niche must be important, otherwise why list it?:

Already the most popular notebook for developers around the world, the new MacBook Pro can compile code faster and run multiple virtual machines and test environments easier than before.

What we want is a functional keyboard. They are losing this market-share quickly but you're right maybe they don't care about this market anymore. They must not since they aren't doing anything about it.

gurkendoktor5• 8 years ago

Internet hearsay (Apple store/reseller staff quoted in podcasts etc.) often mentions that the MacBook Air is (was?) their best-selling laptop. It has no TouchBar, more keyboard travel, a smaller trackpad, arguably more useful ports, and longer battery life. If the trade-offs in the latest MacBook Pro were universally loved, why wouldn't they spread into Apple's other, more popular product lines?

I honestly don't see how their current laptop line-up makes any sense for consumers (and shareholders). If the TouchBar really makes it easier for non-nerds to find shortcuts, why only offer it in high-end laptops?

bitwize• 8 years ago

Most of Apple's shareholder value these days comes from the fucking iPhone and iPad. They won't be terribly hurt by switching back. This is purely marketroid-driven product design, and if it keeps up it'll bust Apple back down to also-ran status.

(Not that Jobs wasn't a Dire Marketroid himself, but at least he knew that practical and functional sells better in the long run than snazzy but busted.)

yesimahuman• 8 years ago

I'm starting to question how "niche" the creator/developer market actually is

p49k• 8 years ago

I don’t necessarily agree that it’s what most people want. I think the reason that most people keep buying macs is because of MacOS. It is so nice to have a UNIX-based OS with great UI, so we keep buying the overpriced, out-of-date, defective laptops because we have no other choice. I’m convinced that a solid, secure, reliable and polished Unix-based OS for developers would quickly wipe out a large segment of Apple’s market share.

394549• 8 years ago

> Why they couldn't grab a 2012-2015 model and upgrade the guts? No touchbar, smaller touchpad than the newer macbooks, but updated specs? Call it Macbook Developer... We build the software for the "Pros" after all.
They didn't do that because it is not what most people want.

What's your basis for saying that, besides the assumption that Apple can't be wrong, so whatever it's doing must be what people actually want?

Apple has a habit of designing from an ivory tower and not admitting to its mistakes. I would say it's arguable that their design priorities are currently out of whack: chasing thinness when you're going from 1.5in to 0.75in is one thing, it's quite another when you're going from 18mm to 15mm. It may not be a fatal mistake for them, but it's evidence that they may longer deserve the design deference they've traditionally gotten.

Apple has to make changes that will sell more laptops to the masses to maximize shareholder value.

Many of those changes could be characterized as pointless sidegrades: merely change for change's sake.

chatmasta2• 8 years ago

It’s a pretty important “niche” of customers though, since 100% of Apple’s App Store revenue is derived from apps built by users in that “niche”...

mbesto• 8 years ago

They didn't do that because it is not what most people want.
Better to focus on the 90% of customers who buy products

So either you're wrong, or Apple's PR team is really bad positioning their product. From the Press Release itself in the first few paragraphs:

ideal for manipulating large data sets, performing complex simulations, creating multi-track audio projects or doing advanced image processing or film editing.

Already the most popular notebook for developers around the world, the new MacBook Pro can compile code faster and run multiple virtual machines and test environments easier than before.

MacBook Pro now delivers faster performance for complex simulations and data manipulation.

With the new MacBook Pro, developers can compile code faster and more easily run multiple virtual machines and test environments.

Aren't those all features described exactly for the "niche developer/macrumors posters"?!

tolmasky2• 8 years ago

The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Better to focus on the 90% of customers who buy products and make up 10% of the complaints then to focus on the 10% of customers who make up 90% of the complaints.

I was very happy with every single MacBook Air since I had one (which I think might have been 3rd generation?), and in fact purchased every single MacBook Air thereafter. People really liked the original Retina MacBook Pros.

This idea that these Pro customers who regularly spend $3,000 on their computers are a fickle whiny bunch who are never happy about anything and have always found something to be upset about is complete fantasy and ignores the reality of an actual degradation in quality.

We didn't just imagine the extension of the warranty on MacBook Pros with butterfly keyboards: Apple had to take action because the computers were ACTUALLY BREAKING. I own one of these, my t key ACTUALLY FELL OFF. I'm not just trying to come up with arbitrary reasons to hate on Apple, the "t" key is not some ivory tower feature only some 10% niche care about, this is a serious quality problem.

No one is saying they shouldn't innovate and come up with gimmicks to sell new computers. In fact, the T2 gimmick might be perfect: they get to tell "the common user" that the computer now runs Siri without compromising existing behavior -- brilliant! Compare this to the Touch Bar, which while flashy infuriates me every single day as I repeatedly mute and unmute my computer as my pinky brushes the touch bar so delicately I don't even register the feeling on my finger.

anthonybsd• 8 years ago

The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does.

That's not entirely accurate. The original 15 inch Retina Macbook Pro is an ideal laptop as far as I'm concerned. I'm still holding on to mine for home use. It was extremely well received in development communities at the time of release. On the other hand I have 2017 Touchbar Pro from work and it's horrendous for undocked use, borderline unusable.

brokentone• 8 years ago

Apple has notoriously aggressively focused on a future-facing scalable way. I.e. where they see enough of the market in say 5 years (i.e. firewire, USB-C). However, they have been wrong before, AND I don't think anyone can argue that they aren't focusing on non-mobile hardware right now.

While it's easy to say "just trust apple, they're doing it for the shareholders," I think it's also fair to say that they're losing their touch in this venue.

It used to be the only reason you didn't buy a Mac for pro creative-type work was the price. Now there are many great reasons from ergonomics to computing power.

skofgar• 8 years ago

I actually like the Touchbar MacBook Pros'. Including the keyboard. I love how small they are and how all the plugs are the "same" :)

I use it as my home-notebook and iOS development.

mtgx• 8 years ago

The 10% are the "word of mouthers" (evangelists) that influence the other 90%.

Apple isn't where it is today because of TV advertising. It's where it is because of brand advocates like the people who are now complaining about the new products.

batteryhorse• 8 years ago

That niche of developer/macrumors posters USED to be happy with everything Apple did. Under Steve Jobs, it seemed like Macbooks got cheaper every year, with more value. Now, every year the price goes up, but less value.

jayd16• 8 years ago

You can tell no one is clamoring for those features because they're not getting copy-catted.

No one wants that touchbar and Apple themselves just replaced the keyboard so to say its what consumers want is just pure fantasy. There's no data yet. Maybe they'll want this new keyboard but you're assuming anything Apple does is what the consumer wants.

aeriklawson• 8 years ago

They didn't do that because it is not what most people want.

Bingo. Most people on this site don't realize they are in the minority.

jdietrich3• 8 years ago

Look at the iPhone SE. For customers who prefer a compact form-factor at a low price point, Apple still make a phone with the body of an iPhone 5 and the guts of an iPhone 6s. It's a niche product, but an important part of the line-up. "Old chassis, new internals" is a standard part of the Apple playbook. Mac sales represent an almost irrelevant part of Apple's revenues, but they're a vital part of the overall Apple ecosystem.

Apple still have the tooling for the 2015 Macbook Pro. The NRE costs to put a modern processor in that chassis would be relatively modes, because it's a much larger chassis with a more straightforward thermal design. The market for such a machine might not be large, but it's extremely important for the health of their ecosystem, because developers developers developers.

Personally, I think that the post-Jobs Apple has developed a nasty case of cargo cultism. Obsessive focus on the user experience has transmuted into obsessive focus on arbitrary design goals - thinner, lighter, fewer ports. They're making record profits thanks to the huge margins on iPhones and the strong vendor lock-in on iOS, but they're burning the goodwill that kept them alive during the lean years. If Apple can't find a way to delight customers rather than frustrate them, they're facing a serious long-term problem.

l3xical3• 8 years ago

Developers are influencers. Lots of people I know ask me what kind of laptop they should get.

For normal humans, having a card slot and being able to use old chargers and accessories is a real consideration.

If you can’t reuse that stuff anyway, then fenestrating may become less distasteful.

bborud• 8 years ago

Then they'd be wrong. You focus on the 5% of people who tell the 95% others what to think.

And you don't ask people what they think, you observe their behavior and hope you can make sense of it. People have no fucking clue what they want. You would have to be insane to ask people for their _opinions_ and expect something you can work with.

drb91• 8 years ago

How do you know what consumers want without offering choice?

nailer4• 8 years ago

If you're used to MacBooks, check out the Surface Laptop or Surface Book.

- The hardware (particularly the keyboard and massive trackpad) is great

- apt-get on WSL is better than homebrew will ever be (powershell too if you have the time to learn it)

- Windows 10 has a dedicated team working on it (Apple has merged iOS and macOS teams since a few years ago, which may be because iOS makes a lot more money).

jawilson22• 8 years ago

Can you develop for iOS on a Surface?

EnderMB2• 8 years ago

I'd be interested in knowing how many people switched from the MBP to the Surface(Book) due to delays and changes/issues in the MBP range.

I bought a first generation Surfacebook a few years ago because I couldn't wait any longer for Apple to release their new MBP range, and I'm glad I didn't wait. It's the best laptop I've ever owned.

Even though I've moved away from .NET dev and work mostly with Ruby and Node it's still my favourite machine to use. I run Debian with minimal problems, and I'm started to get more into WSL, which seems to work brilliantly for all the use cases I've thrown at it.

If the numbers are strong on people moving from MBP to the Surfacebook, then it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for it to become a real option for developers, regardless of whether they want to use Windows or not.

swebs• 8 years ago

Sorry, but Windows 10 is godawful. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. If you want to sell the surface laptop to power users and developers, you're better off mentioning that you can install Ubuntu (as an actual host OS, not WSL bullshit with Microsoft's spyware still running in the background) just fine on certain models.

_bxg14• 8 years ago

I've heard this before too, that the Surface Book is the best replacement MBP you can get right now, even if you never plan on separating the tablet.

gaius2• 8 years ago

If you're used to MacBooks, check out the Surface Laptop or Surface Book.

I’ve also switched from MBP to Surface, couldn’t be happier. Great keyboard, great 3:2 screen (since you can’t buy 4:3 anymore), nice trackpad, WSL is great too. Rather than complain, vote with your wallet.

sbuk• 8 years ago

Having managed a suite of them (SP4's) I disagree veheremently with your assesment. of the 30 I had, 26 had to be returned for repair; fan falures followed by battery issues were the main faults. To add, the dock is just a pile of junk. Utterly worthless, despite an endless series of updates. The Windows 10 team are responsible for Server and Embedded versions of Windows as well as the desktop version. Suggesting that the have a "dedicated" team is mileading.

bloopernova• 8 years ago

My experience with WSL has unfortunately been different to yours.

I tried running Docker on it, which was a disaster. WSL doesn't seem to fully implement things that Docker or other Linux apps require. Various network things seem to be half working or absent.

I don't want to start an argument with you on this, I'm glad your experience has been different to mine. I've started using WSL as a simple shell to access a Fedora VM running under Hyper-V.

pletnes• 8 years ago

AFAIR there was a story stating that the windows team is now part of azure and some other project, no longer having its own team.

Apt is so different from homebrew that I don’t think they’re worth comparing directly. Fwiw people run homebrew on ubuntu, presumably because it is «better» (i.e has something to offer over) than apt.

And there’s a lot of applications that don’t work under WSL - a while back, not a single haskell app worked. (I haven’t bothered checking)

gwbas1c• 8 years ago

Better yet, why don't they go back and grab the 2006 17" form factor?

That was the best developer laptop I had. The missing 2" on the 15" just makes the IDE too narrow.

thanatropism2• 8 years ago

I keep wanting to buy a 17" and then walking back from it after seeing/handling 17" laptops in physical stores.

All the bezel-shrinking R&D being done for phones has to reach laptops at some point. I'm seriously losing half an inch of luggable-but-not-lookable space on each side of the screen, plus a good inch below. (I have like the most common 13" Dell in the world; just walking around in the study room of the library I see three more.)

Cthulhu_3• 8 years ago

I wouldn't mind that either, but OTOH, I don't work on a laptop screen all day as a rule. I'd rather have a compact machine that I can just plug into a screen. I wouldn't mind a Mac Mini style machine with magsafe power and/or an easily detachable docking station.

b3b0p• 8 years ago

My favorite was the first Aluminum Powerbook 12 and 17. I wamted both. I owned the 17 inch. I envied the 12 inch also. The 17 inch was almost the size of a Dell 15 inch at the time, so it wasn't as large it seemed. It was and is my favorite laptop I owned, ever. Well, that or my IBM Thinkpad 600e.

extra882• 8 years ago

The 2006 17" MacBook Pro only had a resolution of only 1680x1050. A 15" Retina MacBook Pro has a "true" resolution of 2880x1800 but is normally used at an effective resolution of 1440x900. However, you can easily adjust it to be an effective resolution of 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 (the resolution of the last 17" MacBook Pro in 2011).

Of course the effective pixels per inch may make some features too small but the effective PPI of 1680x1050 on a current 15" MacBook Pro is lower than the actual PPI of the last 17" MacBook Pro's screen:

147 PPI 15.4" 1920x1200 133 PPI 17" 1920x1200 129 PPI 15.4" 1680x1050 116 PPI 17" 1680x1050 110 PPI 15.4" 144x900

octorian8• 8 years ago

That was back in the day when you had to buy Apple's 17" model just to get the same number of pixels on your screen as everyone else's 15" model. Apple had worse density than the competition back then.

Then a few years passed, and Apple went all-in on high-DPI "Retina" displays, while the whole PC laptop world had a great display regression.

lcnmrn• 8 years ago

They have to recover the money spent on TouchBar R&D. We won’t see a proper MacBook Pro until 2020.

bredren• 8 years ago

I also think that part of there are economic and organizational commitment reasons the touchbar is still getting made. I do not think it is because people love the touchbar.

Color me optimisitic, but I'm hopeful a new arm-based mac will come earlier than 2020, though.

baseten3• 8 years ago

It seems to me the touchbar was just a clever way to get their own processor into their laptops for some large scale real-world testing before they ditch intel and build the entire thing themselves. 2020 is a good guess I'd say.

octorian8• 8 years ago

I kinda wish they were able to implement the touchbar in some sort of hybrid way, like those Art Lebedev keyboards we all saw hyped (but probably never in person) back in the day.

While I'll admit there are cool things you can do with embedded OLED displays, the keys they sacrificed for it are keys I actually need to press. Regularly.

bscphil2• 8 years ago

That's the sunk cost fallacy. If the traditional function keys would sell better than the new touchbar, their best move would be to start selling the old ones right away, even if that meant "throwing money away" on r&d.

alwillis2• 8 years ago

They have to recover the money spent on TouchBar R&D. We won’t see a proper MacBook Pro until 2020.

The amount of money spent on the TouchBar has nothing to do with anything. Apple makes a new set of chips for each new iPhone, iPad and Mac; they have the in-house expertise and the budget to make whatever they want whenever they want.

It's not like the Mac division has it's own profit/lost statement it has to worry about.

The main reason why it's taken this long to get MacBook Pros to this level of performance is due to delays by Intel; simple as that.

gnicholas7• 8 years ago

Where is this quote from? Was the original link to something other than the Apple release?

The linked Apple release just says:

an improved third-generation keyboard for quieter typing

verisimilitude• 8 years ago

That got me, too. It's from the Ars piece on today's news: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/apples-new-2018-macb...

iliasku• 8 years ago

i'm a developer and the keyboard is fine

moron4hire• 8 years ago

I'm a developer and I love the touch bar.

pastor_elm• 8 years ago

There will be a gen 4 keyboard in 18 months.

toasterlovin3• 8 years ago

Web developer here. The MacBook Air is fast enough for me, so I am very much interested in thinner, lighter, and non-performance related features (Touch Bar and Touch ID) in the Pro lineup.

rayiner• 8 years ago

Do you speak on behalf of all "developers?" The 2016 revision is Apple's fastest-selling iteration of the MBP.

I notice you don't quote two paragraphs right before that:

The butterfly keyboard design Apple introduced in 2016 has been divisive. Some people really like it, claiming it has fast travel and a sturdy, responsive feel to it. Others feel it's uncomfortable to type on. We haven't seen a keyboard this polarizing in a long time; it's a point of passionate disagreement even among Ars Technica reviews staff.

The reaction is mixed, even among people who compare laptops to each other for a living. But you make it sound like anybody who knows what they're doing would prefer the old model.

ianferrel• 8 years ago

Do you speak on behalf of all "developers?" The 2016 revision is Apple's fastest-selling iteration of the MBP.

Isn't that mostly because they let the Macbook Air languish, rather than either upgrading it or letting it drop to netbook-level pricing.

So lots of people (myself included) who wanted a Mac laptop bought the Pro one instead.

tolmasky2• 8 years ago

The 2016 revision is Apple's fastest-selling iteration of the MBP.

This is after an (at the time) abnormally long period of little to no substantial updates to the laptops. If you remember at the time, people were worrying about the lack of a new laptop the way they worry now about the Mac Pro. It's really not completely fair to state this metric without the realization that there was a lot of pent up demand for modern components, which would probably overrule any other issues. I was one of the people that bought the 2016 model -- and I'm not happy (not least of which because one of the keys literally fell off), so "fastest selling" != "well received". As it stands now, for me the defining quality of the hardware is that it is the easiest way to run macOS. The fact that the 2015 model and the Air keep selling so well is in my opinion a better demonstration of the "reception" of this new MacBook.

The reaction is mixed, even among people who compare laptops to each other for a living. But you make it sound like anybody who knows what they're doing would prefer the old model.

This is also just not a fair representation of the actual state of affairs. Regardless of whether the keyboards are enjoyable when functional, the reality is that they have quality issues. Apple having to create a program for replacing the keyboards since they break so often is just a fact. Interestingly enough, I'm in this camp: I really have no issue with the new keyboard except for the fact that the keys break. Well, that and the Touch Bar which is a separate topic.

xt00• 8 years ago

Independent of the like or dislike of the keyboard, it is interesting to highlight that Apple will employ the classic PID style of marketing speak.. (as in like PID controller).

what I mean is, if they are selling a ton and its sustained best case scenario), then they talk about that number (thats the proportional term) -- they say things like "we are shipping 1k units per day and projected to hit 50k per month soon".

If they are they aren't selling very many, then they find the derivative of the number sold and see when it is the highest.. "like in a weekend we sold 1 million units!!"

And then if its a slow burn after a period of time they eventually tell you a cumulative number that have sold (integral). "There have been 100 million macs sold to date.." that kind of thing..

So when somebody says "fastest selling", that gives me pause because it basically can mean whatever you want it to mean -- that somehow they have a metric of sales within a period of time of their choosing that was higher than other previous devices. That could literally be because of their ability to fulfill them compared to previously.

Anyway, I'm still holding onto my MBP 2012 and waiting for basically a lighter version of it that has the ability to replace internal M.2 cards (not proprietary), ability to max out my ram and also doesn't have a touchbar.. I mean that touchbar is so lame.. what a waste of effort/time on apples side.. also, talk about fixing something that wasn't broken -- the trackpad.. basically up until the force trackpad people thought it was better than anything else out there by a factor of 10, and apple then changes it and basically everybody says its substantially worse feeling except novice users who know no different..

madis2• 8 years ago

You are wording my exact thoughts. mid-2015 13" MBP was good balance.

They've played this thinness and flashy lights game too much too long. My new Lenovo T480S (24GB DDR4, is coming next week :) Sweet Linux with i3 tiled window manager. All the ports & productivity I can ask for.

I'm voting with my wallet and my vote doesn't go to Apple.

throw_away2• 8 years ago

Right now, I'm hoping my maxed out 2015 13" lasts forever.

ransom1538• 8 years ago

Sorry I am missing something here.

I just looked up my laptop's info: 2.7 GHz Intel Core i7 from 2012. So you are telling me 6 years later, I can get a 2.9GHz 6‑core 8th‑generation Intel Core i7 processor for ~$2800. So Moore's law was incorrect?

opportune2• 8 years ago

I believe Moore's law hasn't been true since before 2012

Anyway, yes, this is why a lot of people, myself included, think the new MBPs are not at all worth the price, especially if you have an older one. There is essentially no reason for me to ever upgrade from my late 2013 model unless it completely breaks. I love this computer, it was probably one of the best purchases I've ever made

ryanisnan2• 8 years ago

Why are you assuming that Apple's pricing strategy has anything to do with reality?

astrodust3• 8 years ago

Moore's Law is with respect to transistor counts and has nothing at all to do with performance.

Historically speaking transistors and performance were coincidentally related: More transistors helped do more things at once, and tinier transistors ran faster than bigger ones.

Now we're at a different inflection point where the transistors aren't shrinking as quickly, but the dies themselves are getting bigger and the chips are growing more complex in terms of 3D structure. There's more transistors in there, but the easy gains in terms of pitch reduction leading to higher clock-speeds are gone.

If we'd been on the same track as before you'd have a ~140GHz CPU. Instead you have a 2.9GHz one because physics is a buzzkill.

Here's an older article discussing the problem from 2012 but the same trend has held: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/116561-the-death-of-cp...

Transistor counts continue to climb but power consumption, clock speeds and performance per clock have all hit a wall.

notadoc2• 8 years ago

Why they couldn't grab a 2012-2015 model and upgrade the guts?

That would have been far more desirable.

I am repulsed by the Touch Bar, and the keyboard which is widely reported to be notoriously unreliable and requiring very expensive repairs does not inspire confidence.

Sigh.

stronglikedan• 8 years ago

All that talk about the keyboard in the article and not a single picture of it...weird.

wingworks• 8 years ago

I like the touchbar and the bigger touchpad, and even the new keyboard (at least, while it works). Granted there are a few bugs with the touchbar which are rather annoying, but nothing they can't fix with a software update (fingers crossed).

peterjonesio3• 8 years ago

As a developer the new keyboards have ruined macbooks for me - I find my macbook pro quite comfortable to type on for longer periods when I am away from my desk. I feel like the new keyboards are not practical for real use and it doesn't sound like the new models will greatly improve that which is a shame because I would love an upgrade.

I think those keyboards are great on the smaller more portable macbooks but I don't understand why the 'pro' models are favouring a couple of mm in size over a more practical keyboard designed for 'pro' use.

BugsJustFindMe3• 8 years ago

(I assume that you meant uncomfortable instead of comfortable based on context.)

Counterpoint: I'm also a developer, and I love the 2017 MBP keyboard. I'm of course disappointed to hear that they fail so regularly and that the repair process is so absurdly sledgehammery, but I think they feel amazing to type on and the recall replacement program satisfies my failure concerns.

madeofpalk7• 8 years ago

Chiming in with more annecdata - I love the feel of the new-style keyboards. Sure, it took a little bit to get used to, but now I can't stand the old keyboards - they feel so soft, mushy and inprecise.

The part where they're completely unreliable though, I hate.

petercooper2• 8 years ago

Ditto, I work on one most of every day and the overall design is fine and works well for me. The occasional "double press" and having to blow out the keyboard with air, though, annoying. I hope the re-engineering on this new one resolves most of the issues.

peterjonesio3• 8 years ago

Comfortable was referring to my current (2015) macbook pro keyboard. I wouldn't say I find the newer keyboards 'uncomfortable' so much as just lacking travel which I generally prefer.

Based on yours and other comments, perhaps I need to find an opportunity to use the newer keyboard a little more than I have to see if I get used to it.

glhaynes• 8 years ago

Same. I often take work from my work-provided 2015 MacBook Pro to my personal 2017 just for the keyboard. I didn't like the 2017 at first, but after a bit of using it, the 2015 feels sluggish, squishy, and effortful.

magic_beans• 8 years ago

But did they fix the keyboard? I have a new MB Pro for work and two weeks of using the flat keys actually gave me horrible wrist pain. Now I use an external keyboard.

I use a 2015 MacBook Air at home that I can type on for hours without any wrist pain.

nnx• 8 years ago

They did.

“an improved third-generation keyboard for quieter typing.”

Looking forward to reading the first reviews.

Hamuko• 8 years ago

The keyboard still has the same design. It's just a third revision of the same basic flat design. They are not going to be making a completely different keyboard design unless they change the design of the computer itself.

mancerayder3• 8 years ago

Sounds like another iteration of 'touchbar my way or the highway.'

TAForObvReasons• 8 years ago

No 15 inch pre-touchbar model: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch

wintorez2• 8 years ago

No! Nooo God No! No! :(

m_mueller5• 8 years ago

Still only 16GB of memory. Keyboard, this and lack of ports means I'm going to switch to a Thinkpad T480s for at least a year.

eludwig• 8 years ago

Apparently not! From the press release:

15-Inch MacBook Pro Highlights

6-core Intel Core i7 and Core i9 processors up to 2.9 GHz with Turbo Boost up to 4.8 GHz

Up to 32GB of DDR4 memory

Powerful Radeon Pro discrete graphics with 4GB of video memory in every configuration

Up to 4TB of SSD storage2

True Tone display technology

Apple T2 Chip

Touch Bar and Touch ID

m_mueller5• 8 years ago

Thanks, I see - on the Tech Specs it's easy to miss since it's nowhere the default config.

r0fl2• 8 years ago

15 inch can have 32 gigs of ram

cmg• 8 years ago

The 15" models go up to 32GB and have 4 USB-C/Thunderbolt ports on them.

cimmanom5• 8 years ago

32 GB available on the 15" touchbar model.

Personally holding out for a 32GB 13", if my 2012 makes it that long.

m_mueller5• 8 years ago

Do you have a link? Haven't spotted that yet.

fatbird• 8 years ago

You're mistaken: they got bumped to 32 for this model, which is now DDR4.

latch3• 8 years ago

After ongoing problems and repairs with my gen 2 butterfly, I switched to Linux (Ubuntu). After many months, I'm still a little shocked at how much worse the desktop experience is. 11 year old OS X Leopard is more consistent, intuitive and usable.

Hardware is slightly less polished, but no major complaints there (except for how poor the buying experience was).

Still, keyboard works. It would take something amazing to win me back (like a custom CPU that just completely redefines what we expect from battery life and performance)

hobochili• 8 years ago

What hardware did you settle on?

latch3• 8 years ago

The new XPS 13. It's fine. My disappointment is 98% software. The XPS has poor camera placement (but you know that going in), the buying experience is awful (here in Asia anyways). I see myself sticking with Linux, but no loyalty to hardware vendors. I'm hoping the MateBook or Chromebook become [relatively] cheap and powerful first class linux options.

tartrate2• 8 years ago

I recommend Lenovo T480 for Linux. Supports 32GB ram as well.

cshenton2• 8 years ago

Well if you're comparing it to Leopard / Snow Leopard no wonder. That's probably the most neat and polished a desktop operating system has ever been.

edit: To clarify, I think current macOS is a better OS, its features are worth less neatness, but Snow Leopard did a smaller amount of things in a neater and more polished way.

madeofpalk7• 8 years ago

Ahh yes, who can forget the extremely polished Snow Leopard bug that just flat out deleted people's user accounts https://gizmodo.com/5379817/reports-snow-leopard-bug-eats-us...

teekert3• 8 years ago

It is well known that Ubuntu is going through a phase of rapid change at the moment. I understand how you feel but I'm pretty sure the quality and consistency will only increase from here on. Otherwise, try a Plasma desktop or Mate (if you feel like a minimalist).

mschaef8• 8 years ago

It is well known that Ubuntu is going through a phase of rapid change at the moment. I understand how you feel but I'm pretty sure the quality and consistency will only increase from here on.

People have been saying things like that about various Linuxes for over 20 years, and it still isn't close.

Brakenshire2• 8 years ago

Just go for vanilla Gnome, the UI is solid.

onyva2• 8 years ago

Second comment about buying experience. I got a Dell XPS which is great, though I would never buy anything again from Dell due to their horrible customer service. By which I mean pathetically rude and unprofessional (German store).

Desktop experience of clean uninterrupted GNOME is great for me. Move from Ubuntu to fedora. Ubuntu really messes up GNOME with their BS ideas of usability. I.e horrible terrible ugly Unity, RIP.

tapoxi• 8 years ago

Recent releases of Ubuntu use regular GNOME 3 with the Dash to Dock extension installed by default.

BanazirGalbasi3• 8 years ago

Yeah, the whole Unity look and feel was always terrible for me. My first experience with Linux was the last version of Ubuntu with Gnome2, then I did a system update and everything changed and back then I didn't know about changing DEs. Now I avoid Unity whenever possible, as even the Gnome lookalike Ubuntu has now seems so much slower than XFCE or i3.

onepointzero• 8 years ago

Never used a Macbook before; always been a Windows user until my switch a few years ago to Ubuntu Gnome. Gotta say Gnome was the most counter-intuitive DE coming from a Windows background, making the switch brutal.

Several years later, loving and still using the Gnome look. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

drewg1232• 8 years ago

It is all what you're used to. I switched from a Linux KDE desktop to a Mac 11 years ago. I ended up switching back to Linux & KDE after about 6 months of use, and giving the Mac to my inlaws.

What it came down to for me is that I've been using the same window manager shortcuts since the late 80s, and I can't make them work with OSX. Eg, I use focus-follows mouse, and some strange mouse-button + ALT key combos to move/raise/iconify windows. The loss of focus follows mouse is what really drove me nuts. I was forever deleting emails because I'd move my mouse to a terminal or emacs window and start typing, like I'd done for the last 20+ years, but without a click "random stuff" was happening in Mail, which was still getting the keystrokes.

modzu5• 8 years ago

thats a huge part of it for sure. certainly thats why windows remains so dominant. its just hard to switch.

latch3• 8 years ago

"It is all what you're used to"

I don't think this is true.

Ubuntu is far less consistent with keyboard shortcuts and menu bars from app to app (OSX has this nailed). This is overwhelming my biggest problem. cmd+c, cmd+v for copy and paste across all apps. Not all apps minus terminal. Double click URL portion in firefox, entire url is highlighted, double click url part in other places, only that word/segment is highlight (I guess it's this 8 year old bug? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=611162)

Sublime sometimes opens with the menu shown, sometimes with it hidden (I've tried to script this, doesn't always work). Sometimes the window shows up minimized (scripting this catch 90% of the cases)

On quit, Firefox always restores the DDG and Amazon search options, but not the other ones. Why can't it remember this? (there are other cases of partial configuration amnesia for various apps)

"Ubuntu Software" doesn't list available updates for installed "Add-ons", you have to remove and and re-add when you know one exists. It also doesn't let you "search" installed even if you're on the installed tab.

When my I wake my screen up, there's a brief flash of my unlocked screen (someone could theoretically take a picture) before the lock screen comes up.

In OSX and android I just enter my carriers free wifi settings and it works. In Ubuntu, I'm given a bunch of detailed options, and I've yet to find the magical combination that works.

While on battery, the time remaining can be comically off when waking from sleep (23 hours, really?!). I've also had it say 10 minutes left when it shut down.

There are plenty of apps on extensions.gnome.org (available in "Ubuntu Software") that constantly crash gnome. Go through systemd logs, find which ones are causing the problem, try to fix or uninstall.

The list goes on and on. Correct battery time, configurations that stick, consistency from app to app are polish, not preferences.

rsync2• 8 years ago

"The loss of focus follows mouse is what really drove me nuts."

This is a killer for me and I am trying to solve it currently ...

I ran Snow Leopard from 2009-2018 and had FFM due to "mondomouse" but that is no longer published or supported.

Now that I have upgraded (my 2009 mac pro) to Yosemite, I sort of have a FFM solution with a tool called dwellclick and one modification[1] but it's not perfect.

HOWEVER, it appears that there is a new accessibility option in High Sierra that allows you to turn on FFM without third party software. Not helpful for me because I can't install High Sierra on a 2009 mac pro ...

[1] defaults write com.pilotmoon.DwellClick MoveDistancePixels -float 600

arghwhat2• 8 years ago

I recently switched from macOS High Sierra to Fedora.

I felt that Fedora was smoother, way more responsive on the same hardware (and yes, comparing fresh macOS to fresh Linux install), more consistent and more intuitive, and more usable. The only thing I can think of that's better on macOS is the touchpad, which to the best of my knowledge is a gift given to us mortals by the gods.

Oh, and the macOS default wallpaper is better.

macintux4• 8 years ago

The only thing I can think of that's better on macOS is the touchpad, which to the best of my knowledge is a gift given to us mortals by the gods.

I'm absolutely unwilling to give up the Mac trackpad. When I see people who aren't artists using mice I have to question their value system, or assume they haven't discovered the absolute joy that is "tap to click".

Obviously the configuration matters a great deal.

hrktb4• 8 years ago

An aspect that is often left out of the discussion: language support is way better on osx/windows. In particular japanese IME was still very primitive in comparison on linux (tried last year).

That's the same situation as for ios/android really, it's not a deal breaker, but the quality of life difference is clear.

modzu5• 8 years ago

i know. dammit. i think the part of the brain that allows one to use linux in the first place (ie bash) is at odds with the aesthetic and visual centers of the brain. seriously.

that said, with a non-trivial amount of time and work, you can get your desktop experience to be pretty slick. but it requires knowing your desktop environments, window managers, compositors, default apps, etc...

_blz2• 8 years ago

You can change desktops very easily on the popular linux distros. Try r/linux and ask about what you want specifically. It's very likely there is a desktop out there for you. If you just want a macOS copy, most of that can be done by configuration. The development environment is really good on arch linux bdw.

tkzzbneig• 8 years ago

Unity is very commonly despised in the Linux community. Some do like it, but to form your opinion of Linux DE usability based on that one experience isn't fair. Try Linux Mint for all the ease of Ubuntu in terms of setup and bundled software, but for the best DE out there.

wintorez2• 8 years ago

I really hope they don't retire 2015 models anytime soon. Those were the last usable MacBook Pros.

samcat1163• 8 years ago

They did

vinceguidry5• 8 years ago

I ended up buying a used mid-2012 model, hopefully the 16GB RAM upgrade I got makes it nice and snappy. Kicking myself for giving away my 2014 Air.

DenisM2• 8 years ago

Yep. Last call https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1151721-REG/apple_z0r...

pornel• 8 years ago

It's not possible to buy it without the TouchBar any more :(

I really wanted to like it, and the concept could perhaps eventually be good, but the current implementation is infuriatingly bad:

• I need more than one tap to change the brightness, volume or skip to the next song.

• The buttons are in different locations depending on context, so it's not possible to use it by muscle memory.

• TouchBar automatically goes to sleep, making the previous two points worse.

• It's not even that good for its intended purpose. Previews of things on it are too tiny. Most actions still require multiple taps, and it's in the uncanny valley between direct and indirect manipulation.

Fingerprint sensor is convenient, but the TouchBar ended up being a gimmick, not a pro feature.

madeofpalk7• 8 years ago

• I need more than one tap to change the brightness,

For what it's worth, if you tap and hold the brightness and volume buttons, it turns into a slider under your finger that you can immediately use. One tap + drag.

It's the one thing I miss about the Touch Bar after leaving it for the MacBook Escape.

princekolt• 8 years ago

Wasn't the Touch Bar-less model 13" only? That's hardly a Pro machine anyway, since it has no discrete graphics.

wilsonnb23• 8 years ago

There are a huge number of pro users that don't require integrated graphics. Most developers don't need them.

dijit3• 8 years ago

depends what your definition of "pro" is, even if it's 50% of all users who do pro work that need a GPU (Video, photo, CAD) there's at least as many who need a lot of memory/CPU for various other things.

Programming/compiling not-withstanding there are many tasks today that are CPU intensive.

Plus, real professionals use slack, so that extra memory is needed.

jaxondu3• 8 years ago

The touchbar-less 13” is last year model with 7th gen CPU and old keyboard design.

Signez• 8 years ago

I need more than one tap to change the brightness, volume or skip to the next song.

I discovered recently that you could just do a "quick swipe" (very fast) on the button in the right direction on both the volume and brightness virtual button to apply the expected effect. Good enough for my usage.

jvzr• 8 years ago

No need to "quick swipe," you can just tap-and(-hold-and)-swipe. This is really easy and allows for fine-grained control

issa3• 8 years ago

This comment was the best thing to happen today. This is still not as good as hard buttons, but it improves the experience tremendously.

sincerely• 8 years ago

I need more than one tap to change the brightness, volume or skip to the next song.

this is the dealbreaker for me. :( i hope they release a model without the touch bar in the future

simonbarker872• 8 years ago

OP is incorrect, just tap and hold and then slide left or right to change the volume or brightness. It’s quicker than physical buttons and more granular.

sergiotapia• 8 years ago

Tap and hold brightness/volume icons then drag to change. Don't know how I figured this one out.

simonbarker872• 8 years ago

I’m fairly sure it was in the demo on stage, it is a publicised feature from day one (when I got mine) but people are so bothered about the escape key and other things that this feature gets lost in the noise.

hrrsn• 8 years ago

Better Touch Tool addresses almost all of your concerns

jonnyscholes• 8 years ago

Check our BetterTouchTool it has a 40 day free trial so you give it a proper work out and let's you customise the touch bar completely. It's brilliant and worth every cent.

J0-nas• 8 years ago

I wouldn't care about the touch bar if the esc+(sleep key) were still regular hardware keys. Those are the only ones that I actually use.

But an even bigger problem for me is the price increase. The base TB version costs 200€ more (or 400€ if you'd buy the nTB 128gb version). With ne nTB version not getting the update, the updated MBP is too expensive compared to non Apple machienes.

dandare2• 8 years ago

I believe the price increase is purely based on the profit-maximizing strategy. If people will pay that much then Apple has no reason to ask for less. Unfortunately, I can not imagine myself switching to a Windows-based laptop. This is just another example of why monopoly is bad.

originalbryan22• 8 years ago

As an aside, I switched Caps Lock to ESC a few years ago and after the 6 weeks(?) or however long it took to fully adjust, it's fantastic. I wish I could bring Caps Lock -> ESC joy to everyone.

snom3802• 8 years ago

If it's any help, I found this tool useful: https://www.haptictouchbar.com/ (I'd be surprised if Apple doesn't build this into the Touch Bar at some point.)

ppeetteerr3• 8 years ago

You don't need to worry so much about most of these. Go to System Preferences > Keyboard. Change the Touch Bar shows to Expanded Control Strip. Then go to Customize Control Strip... and set the keys you want to always have displayed. I can guarantee you will be using the touch bar more often then you did the F* keys.

masklinn4• 8 years ago

It's not possible to buy it without the TouchBar any more :(

It is, but they didn't update the model at all.

mcrider• 8 years ago

My favorite is when my hands naturally come to rest near the top of the keyboard at least once a day they land on the brightness control in the touchbar and dim my screen to black.

nojvek3• 8 years ago

Or that I try to press delete, and if my fingers are a tiny bit off, the computer goes to sleep since the touch bar is really sensitive. Even the edge of my finger triggers it.

rsync2• 8 years ago

Just an aside ... I set my lower-right "hot corner" to "sleep screen" on all macs I use - including desktop imacs ...

That way you can just drag the mouse to the lower-right corner and black the screen anytime you like ...

matwood3• 8 years ago

I learned that while reading email and using "e" to archive that my pinky rests on the escape key. Took me a bit to realize why weird things were going on.

Other than that, I like the 2017 keyboard (assuming mine doesn't break) and touch bar.

mFixman2• 8 years ago

I need more than one tap to change the brightness, volume or skip to the next song. > The buttons are in different locations depending on context, so it's not possible to use it by muscle memory.

You can add Volume/Brighness Up/Down buttons to the "always-on" touchbar by going to View -> Customize Touch Bar on the finder.

You can also start sliding from the "open slider" button without releasing your finger, which is more granular and IMO much nicer than having to press many times to adjust volume. If they only removed that giant pop-up on the screen with the current brightness and volume it would be a big improvement.

wepple2• 8 years ago

That’s really good to know, thanks!

The lack of direct volume control really annoyed me. I probably should have poked around the config instead of just being annoyed about it.

imron2• 8 years ago

but the current implementation is infuriatingly bad:

You left out how easy it is to accidentally brush with a finger and trigger various actions that you didn't want to do.

Especially infuriating when using Calculator and clear a result or turn a multiplication in to an addition.

jihadjihad• 8 years ago

The touchbar is awesome--you can immediately blow away all the worthless function keys and have a minimalist setup. I keep the escape key and the volume/brightness sliders, that's it. Keeps the entire setup feeling clean. People actually use the touchbar for context-dependent tasks?

jamiek88• 8 years ago

Its great for scrubbing through video. Tap and hold for fast, fine grained control.

My only complaint with the touchbar is its too easy to accidentally engage Siri.

Other than that it’s a good idea IMO.

matchbok• 8 years ago

Eliminating the entire keyboard for a touchscreen would also be "clean".

Clean != good. These are tools, not pieces of art.

tajen• 8 years ago

Why didn’t they keep both the touchbar and the F keys. That would have been so awesome for developers, it would have enabled so many usecases without killing existing ones.

lloeki3• 8 years ago

Hopefully see this article? [0] I don't have on-hands feedback on this but it sounded kind of promising (or at least a possible stairway to escape that special circle of hell)

[0] http://vas3k.com/blog/touchbar/

lozenge• 8 years ago

You can swipe the volume or brightness buttons left and right to adjust in a single press.

vosper• 8 years ago

I need more than one tap to change the brightness, volume or skip to the next song.

Happily, you don't - tap and hold the button on the touchbar and drag your finger from there. You do not need to move your finger to the slider. Same works for volume. Tap, hold, drag. Not sure about skipping songs.

Razengan• 8 years ago

I need more than one tap to change the brightness, volume

Not true; you can change them by beginning a slide over the brightness/volume (and maybe other buttons that expand into a slider) in a single gesture without lifting your finger.

ZeroCool2u• 8 years ago

The keyboard and the touch bar are deal breakers for me. For the first time in a while I've been considering buying a new laptop, but the touch bar is basically zero utility and the keyboard is negative utility. I can't spend $2400+ on a laptop and feel good about it.

Jyaif• 8 years ago

Don't forget the trackpad so big that your palm interrupts your gestures. And the touch bar actually has negative utility as you'll end up accidentally pressing some buttons.

nilkn• 8 years ago

I disagree on this point. I've been using the new form factor with the large trackpads since initial launch in 2016 and the large trackpads are amazing, and I don't seem to have any issues with palm interaction. Anything smaller just feels downright primitive and old to me now.

ppeetteerr3• 8 years ago

I can tell you from personal experience that the touch bar is more useful than the function keys it replaces. You will not miss them after a few weeks. They keyboard is solid too. I cringe if I have to type on the old pro keyboard with its soft keys.

atombender• 8 years ago

I've had the Touch Bar model twice now (long story). Each time I switched back to a 2015 model after about two weeks.

The missing Escape key is annoying. The lack of tactile feedback makes it awkward for touch typists who expect some kind of feedback to sense that their press reached the right place. Remapping to Caps Lock requires a long muscle memory retraining period that is not helped by the fact that external keyboards still have an Esc key, moving your training progress backwards (unless you pry it off or something).

The new keyboard is not very nice to type on, but the worst aspect of it is that it is extremely loud. I didn't experience any key failures myself, but I have a colleague who did. (And of course he encountered the classic problem: What do you do when the laptop you absolutely rely on for work is in the shop for 7+ day's to fix a single key?)

Also, the new arrow key layout is very bad for touch typists like myself. I frequently had to look down at the keyboard and see that my fingers weren't finding the right arrow key. The old pyramid layout of the four arrow keys was much more friendly.

The Touch Bar is literally useless to me as a touch typist who is used to not looking at the keyboard. One of the first things that annoyed me was that the contents of the Touch Bar changes depending on the app, so in order to use it without glancing down you have to remember the exact widget placement for each app. So I pretty quickly switched to the "extended" control bar that always has the same layout. But that basically just gives you the functionality of a pre-Touch-Bar Mac.

I frequently found myself accidentally touching the Touch Bar, often because I rest my hands in a splayed position across the keyboard. My fingertips would end up resting on the Touch Bar and cause surprising things to happen.

Another annoyance is the fact that if you do want to invest in using the Touch Bar efficiently, you can't use the Mac with an external keyboard. In my home office I have an external screen and "dock" my MacBook there and run it with a closed lid and a wireless Apple keyboard. No Touch Bar there.

I don't mind all the other problems so much -- USB-C, no MagSafe, trackpad that is too big (yet another case of accidental touches), etc. -- but I'd pay a lot of money to get rid of the Touch Bar.

sumedh2• 8 years ago

I cringe if I have to type on the old pro keyboard with its soft keys.

The soft keys are quiet while the new keyboard is noticeably louder.

mtarnovan2• 8 years ago

I really hope there's going to be a 15' MacBook Pro without Touch Bar.

edit: clarify I was talking about the 15' model.

rc_mob• 8 years ago

There wont't be one :(

mtarnovan2• 8 years ago

Ars says: "We don't know the status of the 15-inch without the Touch Bar at the time of this writing." So I'm still holding out hope.

wilsonnb23• 8 years ago

I'm looking forward to the very first "real development takes 64GB RAM, 32 just isn't enough" complaints.

Honestly, this looks like a good revision. I've been wanting a quad core 13 inch for a while.

Hopefully the keyboard revision helps with all of the issues people have had.

mojo982• 8 years ago

I did too, but the fact that they limit it to touchbar models means I'm out.

redial• 8 years ago

That's next year complaint.

talmand• 8 years ago

I'd be very happy with the 32GB at this point, but sadly my company just got me the previous new model with 16GB and I doubt I can convince anyone to reduce my refresh cycle to mere months.

fhood2• 8 years ago

Haha, 32 gb is enough for me at the moment, but I am sure that the engineers at google are doing their best to make sure that chrome consumes record amounts of ram per tab, so soon 32 will no longer be enough.

hrktb4• 8 years ago

"real development takes 64GB RAM, 32 just isn't enough"

cough kubernetes cough

DenisM2• 8 years ago

13" is still capped at 16gb.

TimMeade4• 8 years ago

I hear all the complaints about keyboard and touchbar, but we use these with external keyboards and never use the touchbar.

32GB DDR4 Ram and 6 Core processors honestly is making this a no-brainer here. We have been waiting on the ram for years. Price is the big question. At this time, the Select on the apple store is disabled so no idea what this will cost.

vinceguidry5• 8 years ago

Why not just get an iMac if you're not going to use it as a laptop?

TimMeade4• 8 years ago

Identical desk setups at home and work. Carry it back and forth. Awesome setup actually.

anentropic5• 8 years ago

because it's not portable, duh

gavi• 8 years ago

you can configure it now.

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MR942...

Fully specced out = $6,699.00

TimMeade4• 8 years ago

Order is open: 32 GB Top CPU 1TB $3899 US. 2TB and 4TB are insanely priced.

Lio• 8 years ago

Is that the royal "we"? :P

Personally I always use my MacBook Pro set up below my external monitor. I always use the built in keyboard and trackpad because I find a small, short travel keyboard with a centrally mounted trackpad more ergonomic. I'm pretty sure this setup might only relevant to me though, so horses for courses.

I haven't upgraded because the new macs don't seem to match my use-cases and I can get by with my old 2013 model for now.

I agree about price though. The new MacBook Pros seem poor value to me. You have to decide whether to max the RAM/SSD upfront, get the new dongles you need all while Apple are nickel and dimming over things like the PSU extension cable which is no longer included despite the price rises.

Daniel_sk• 8 years ago

32GB RAM only for 15" :-(.

buildbuildbuild2• 8 years ago

I want a thicker laptop.

Apple is oblivious that Pros want _more_ functionality, not less. Editions that would frustrate their supply line but be incredible:

- MBP Engineer: 32GB+ RAM, 2+ NVMe SSD, 10gbe, dedicated real A12 ARM chip for simulating iOS

- MBP Scientist: 32GB+ RAM, an FPGA with fun Apple SDK, dedicated GPU

- MBP Video: 4 SDI ports (integrated BMD DeckLink Duo 2), timecode BNC, dedicated GPU, 10gbe

- MBP Audio: MADI and AES50 ports, 8 mini TRS inputs and outputs designed by Lynx or Apogee

Across board: fast SD card reader, HDMI even if mini.

Releasing even one of these sure would indicate that they're with the times. I'll admit to being an odd user though, my dream laptop would have a 16x PCIe slot exposed on one side.

aside: It's good to see Blackmagic Design get such a loud shout-out from Apple. Since dabbling in the live production world I've been consistently impressed by their FPGA and industrial design chops. possible acquisition? https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HM8Y2VC/A/blackmagic-egpu

jsheard• 8 years ago

An edition with an Nvidia GPU would certainly be appreciated, even after years of Apple exclusively pushing AMD GPUs there's still a non-trivial amount of software that doesn't work on them.

There's been a mass-defection from Mac to Windows in the motion graphics industry just because they want/need Nvidia GPUs to run their preferred renderers.

buildbuildbuild2• 8 years ago

Completely agree. Nvidia's typical performance is also way ahead of the GPUs Apple is integrating.

melling3• 8 years ago

“Hey Siri” is available because a T2 chip is included.

We’re slowly crawling towards Voice as a User Interface on the personal computer.

Hope this happens in my lifetime. I’ve been waiting several decades.

madeofpalk7• 8 years ago

"Hey Siri"'s increasing presence in Apple's lineup is very problematic, at least with it's current implementation, especially with the wildly varying capabilities between devices.

The HomePod is very greedy with Hey Siri, even for things that it can't handle. I'll be in my living room and try to "Hey Siri" something to my phone, and my HomePod in the kitchen will somehow here me, take the request, and then fail because it's incapable to doing it. Throwing a Mac into the equation just makes things harder.

melling3• 8 years ago

Sounds like Apple could fix by allowing a more specific name:

“Hey Mac”

“Hey HomePod”

shawabawa3• 8 years ago

We’re slowly crawling towards Voice as a User Interface on the personal computer.
Hope this happens in my lifetime. I’ve been waiting several decades.

Can I ask why? I find voice interfaces basically useless. They're too awkward to use in public, too unreliable to use in general, and almost never quicker than just typing or mousing anyway.

I can see how it's great for accessibility (e.g. for blind people), but that's about it

melling3• 8 years ago

“Too unreliable “

“Faster to type”

You’re doing that thing where you take the current implementation that isn’t very good and ignore that it will greatly improve.

For example, people say electric vehicles don’t work for them because they only go 300 miles on a charge with today’s battery technology.

Anyway, at some point, someone will get it right then you’ll wonder how you lived without it.

gurkendoktor5• 8 years ago

Macs had support for always-on speech control for over a decade: http://etc.usf.edu/techease/4all/input-devices/how-do-i-use-...

(The earliest mention of macOS voice control that I can find is almost two decades old: http://lowendmac.com/1999/computer-tell-me-a-joke/)

The issue is that Siri can't do a whole lot on macOS. I don't think the T2 chip is a game changer here.

linguae4• 8 years ago

I’m glad to see that Apple has finally updated its MacBook Pro line, but it’s a little too late for me. After using Macs for nearly 12 years, I bought a Dell XPS 15 9570 a week after WWDC 2018 (I couldn’t put off a new computer purchase any longer), and I couldn’t be happier. It turns out that Windows 10 really shines on a computer with six processor cores, a 4K display, and a NVMe SSD, a dramatic improvement from the refurbished ThinkPad T430 I used with a spinning hard disk and a 1366x768 display. Windows 10 shines on top-of-the-line hardware, and I’ve found the experience to be quite competitive to macOS so far for my needs. Granted, I’m still getting used to the Windows ecosystem again after being away from it for 12 years, and there are still some aspects of Windows 10 that annoy me (namely the prevelance of ads), but other than that it’s quite an improvement from my Windows XP days.

Anyway, I’m pleased that Apple updated its MacBook Pro lineup today, and I hope that Apple will start regularly updating its Macs again. Competition is very important in the personal computing marketplace. I’m glad that Windows 10 is working well for me, and I hope that Apple will still be a force in computing so that way Microsoft won’t get lazy again like they did in the dark ages of Internet Explorer 6. I have a Mac Pro I still use regularly as a desktop at home, and so I still have one foot in the Mac ecosystem.

dijit3• 8 years ago

Echoing this sentiment, got a precision 5520 pre-loaded with Ubuntu and it's been a real champ. The build-quality is on-par with Apple and the fact that I still have HDMI/USB-A has been a life-saver a whole bunch of times.

There's one other thing that I like too; it's linux.

If I bought a macbook I'd definitely leave OSX on it, OSX is a decent system but the lack of decent window manager, the fact that I can't navigate with just a keyboard and the fact that I don't have the ability to mount linux-y/windows-y filesystems except fat is an annoyance too. But they're not annoying enough to make a good Mac Laptop a half-decent linux laptop.

virtualwhys2• 8 years ago

How's the fan noise on the 5520 during basic usage? Browser, email client, text editor, etc.

Have an old M4700 here, thinking of upgrading to the 5530, but am not sure what thermal effects of going slimmer/lighter has had on the new design.

asselinpaul• 8 years ago

I have found chunkwm to be an enjoyable window manager for macOS: https://koekeishiya.github.io/chunkwm/

scarface7410• 8 years ago

I have a Dell 2n1 for both my work laptop and my personal laptop. I have no problem with either. For the last 20+ years I’ve been exclusively a Windows Developer. But lately as I’ve moved to cloud implementations, Docker and cross platform languages, the “Microsoft Tax” is starting to hit home in terms of costs and resources.

My next personal computer will be a Mac. I’ve had a few in the past. But it will either be a 5K iMac or a hopefully updated Mac Mini. With the Mac you get a true Unix environment and the flexibility to develop for any platform - .Net Core, Android, iOS, etc. and in a pinch you can run Windows.

NHern031• 8 years ago

Out of curiosity, have you had a chance to explore the Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL)? WSL allows you to run your favorite linux distro with access to most command-line tools, utilities, and so on[0]. I have been a .NET developer for about 5 years now and recently began working in Ruby. The WSL had allowed me to effortlessly set up my Ruby dev environment, while still maintaining Windows 10 as my main OS of choice. While the WSL might not be a full on replacement to a linux OS, it is definitely a neat addition to Windows 10.

[0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10

pythonaut_16• 8 years ago

What kind of development are you doing on it? Have you found a good workflow yet?

I've given up running Linux natively on my computers and I'm trying to find the best Windows 10 workflow

linguae4• 8 years ago

I'm still in the process of completely moving my workflow to my Dell XPS 15, but my occupation is computer science research, particularly in the area of distributed systems. My day-to-day tasks involve reading and annotating academic papers, writing code (usually in C and Python, but sometimes I use C++ and Java), writing papers in LaTeX, and making presentations (on my Mac I used Keynote but I use PowerPoint in Windows). So far I'm able to do my work using WSL. At times my work involves interacting with the OS kernel, and on my Mac I sometimes find myself using a Linux or FreeBSD VM to do my work rather than programming directly on macOS. For these tasks Windows 10 with the WSL can replace macOS, although sometimes I need to use a Linux or FreeBSD VM.

To be honest, I could probably get away with doing my work on a 2001 PowerBook G4 Titanium if it weren't for the browser situation for PowerPC Macs these days, but I love having a powerful yet lightweight laptop with a six-core Intel Core i7-8750H, a 4K screen, and a fast SSD at my disposal.

0xcafecafe• 8 years ago

I thing I like the macbook for is the longevity. My refurb 2014 Mac Pro still boots up faster than my new XPS from the same year with equivalent hardware. Also, almost no loss in performance as opposed to the XPS. I hope the newer windows machines up their ante in that regard so when my mac pro kicks the bucket, I have something good to go to. With the ugly touchbar and no magsafe charge, the new macbook has lost its appeal for me.

tartrate2• 8 years ago

I decided to leave Apple a while ago too, and a decision like that usually lasts many years.

slantyyz9• 8 years ago

I'm on a weird cycle of switching every 10 years or so.

Mid 80s to mid 90s: Apple 2 and Mac

Mid 90s to mid 00's: Windows

Mid 00s to Mid 10s: OSX

Mid 10s to Present: Windows 8/10

dingo_bat2• 8 years ago

Windows 10 really shines on a computer with six processor cores, a 4K display, and a NVMe SSD

I have anecdotally found that just replacing a spinning disk with a nice SSD is enough for win10 to shine.

djaychela• 8 years ago

Me too. I have an old ThinkPad that I use for car diagnostics. Cheap Gumtree buy, with Win10 and a standard HD. Put a spare 120GB SSD in it, and it's now really usable - previously it was like thick treacle. Win10 seems to be very heavy on drive use?

ta848347• 8 years ago

(namely the prevelance of ads)

Where are all these ads that people complain about? Is it the half pre-installed apps that come with your computer that you can promptly uninstall?

SyneRyder3• 8 years ago

They're in a few different places, but it will sometimes show ads in the Start Menu for apps you can buy on the Windows Store. It also nags you quite often to buy a subscription to Office 365 or OneDrive. You can turn most of the ads off:

https://www.pcgamer.com/how-to-ditch-the-ads-in-the-windows-...

jhanschoo2• 8 years ago

Microsoft does a lot of cross-promotion: e.g. the weather app that upon first run shows an ad for the news app.

Under the default and recommended settings, it sends telemetry, and occasionally asks you to rate how likely you are recommending win10 to a friend.

When you launch Firefox or Chrome for the first time, a popup appears from the start bar, saying something like "Have you tried Edge? Edge is XX% faster than firefox/Chrome".

Basically you have to be prepared for a new product placement everytime you launch a Micrsoft app for the first time.

I've related on reddit that psychologically, this feels like the difference between being in your own house and being a house guest of an old acquaintance trying to get you into their MLM scheme.

driverdan4• 8 years ago

and there are still some aspects of Windows 10 that annoy me (namely the prevelance of ads)

This is why I won't run Windows 10. It's spyware you pay for. No thanks!

plopz• 8 years ago

Has anyone actually paid for windows 10? Everyone I know got it for free.

illegalsmile• 8 years ago

How is the build of the XPS15 compared to a MBP? One thing I've always appreciated about Apple is their aluminum and absolutely solid builds. Their exterior builds is one of the reasons I buy their products. I know the new keyboard has issues for a lot of people but it has not been a problem for me and I enjoy typing on it.

willtim• 8 years ago

A aluminium body adds significant weight when compared to composite materials; it can also attenuate radio and be prone to warping. IMHO, it is not an obvious choice for a laptop casing. The X1 Carbon is significantly lighter than a MacBook Pro, despite having a better (deeper) keyboard and a removeable battery.

linguae4• 8 years ago

I have a 2013 MacBook Air (that's no longer working) and a Dell XPS 15 9570. I also used to use a 2015 MacBook Pro during my previous job. The Dell XPS 15 9570's build quality is quite wonderful and quite Apple-esque. The only complaint I have about this laptop after two weeks of use is sometimes I need to use extra force on the space bar in order to register a keypress (I don't know if this is normal or if I need to have Dell explore this issue), but other than that I enjoy using this laptop.

AdamJacobMuller• 8 years ago

namely the prevelance of ads

There are ads... baked into the OS?

scroot• 8 years ago

Yo I cannot reply to some older comments you've made that I found, but I thought you'd be interested to know about this [1].

These guys are working on a version of the Cog VM that will run on its own, and also working on the relevant Squeak / Pharo libraries that could use it (they need the equivalent of "drivers" — these dudes are even implementing tcp in Smalltalk).

Check it out. Let me know what you think.

[1] https://github.com/nopsys/CogNOS

hesk• 8 years ago

At least there's some movement but this upgrade still falls far short of what I'm hoping for. The 13" model is still limited to 16 GB. And the model without touch bar only has 2 USB-C ports. Why, Apple, why?!

calebm2• 8 years ago

I was so sad to see that too! I'm still waiting on a 13" 32Gb macbook.

toasterlovin3• 8 years ago

This is great news for me personally as it means that I will never have to see anybody complain about how you can only get 16gb RAM in Apple laptops.

jbergstroem• 8 years ago

I wonder if the previous model keyboard repairs will get the third gen keyboard at some point (didn't see any info about this)?

artimaeis2• 8 years ago

Looking at the specs on the sales pages:

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/13-inch

It's interesting to me that they've widened the gap between the 13" and 15" -- it looks like the 15 has been updated to use DDR4 while the 13 is still on LPDDR3. I get where they're coming from in that the 15 has notably more battery to work with, but it seems surprising that they'd widen that gap between devices.

At this point (assuming no issues with gen3-keyboard) I think a lot of people will find the 15" to be a great pro laptop and the 13" will still be rather disappointing to many. Here's hoping some reviewers do a meaningful comparison between the two.

cimmanom5• 8 years ago

Apple really doesn't seem to grok that small doesn't necessarily equal low-end in customers' minds. People want small laptops and small phones for reasons other than spending less money. They keep making this mistake with the iPhone SE too.

peeters2• 8 years ago

I'm not sure it's an issue with them not understanding, but rather straight up physics. It's an engineering marvel to get the components into the 15" as they do. Now try cramming that same tech into 77% of the space. There are going to be compromises. I would guess it's a similar story with the iPhone.

gurkendoktor5• 8 years ago

The iPhone SE was just as fast as the flagship phone (6S) when it was released. It didn't have the faster TouchID or 3D Touch, but neither did my iPad Pro, so I don't think they were trying to hold the phone back.

Now if they only kept updating it...

philjohn• 8 years ago

There's not a million miles between LPDDR3 and DDR4

asafira• 8 years ago

This. If I remember right, RAM hasn't changed much in performance between LPDDR3 and DDR4.

hrktb4• 8 years ago

The 13" only gets 16G of RAM though.

That's really sad, the 13" would be the best machine for my case if it had parity on the memory side (dealing with a lot of VMs, it really makes a difference)

pentae4• 8 years ago

As a counterpoint, the 13" finally now has a quad core processor - that's a game changer.

meroje• 8 years ago

Pretty sure my 2012 macbook air feels faster than the 13in 2016 mbp only because of the additional cores.

skohan2• 8 years ago

I would love a discreet graphics option on the 13" version.

lispm• 8 years ago

Apple sells this now: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicegpu/

see: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HM8Y2/blackmagic-egpu?fno...

sneak5• 8 years ago

They’re laptops, just cover the brand name in stickers and nobody will know what kind of GPU you have inside there.

djhworld2• 8 years ago

Was very disappointed to see tha the new 13" models don't come with a 32GB of RAM option.

darepublic2• 8 years ago

Please give me back the escape key. I have a 2012 Macbook Pro it is very good.

ppeetteerr3• 8 years ago

If the 2012 MacBook is still good, then you should keep using it. When you're ready to upgrade, you will see that the new touch bar is just as good as the function keys, if not better. I used them every day.

darepublic2• 8 years ago

I have a newer MacBook too (work issued) so I have some experience using the touchbar. Two things I dislike about it -- the cannot mindlessly adjust the volume, I have to use the slider. Also as aforementioned, pressing the touchbar esc key is unsatisfying. Makes escaping in vim feel perilous.

schappim3• 8 years ago

It is telling that there is not a mention of this on the front page of Apple.com . So much for caring about the Mac!

joshstrange2• 8 years ago

Um, maybe it wasn't update when you looked but the entire homepage is dedicated to: The MacBook Pro, The iMac Pro, and Mojave in that order. There is no reference to iPhone/iPad anywhere other than the top nav bar.

schappim3• 8 years ago

It certainly looks very different now! I stand corrected!

pier252• 8 years ago

No refresh on the non touch bar model. I guess a new Macbook Air is coming.

whatever12• 8 years ago

Not a MacBook user, but being in a US university campus for almost 5 years now there is one change that I noticed with the latest crop of Macbooks. Everyone seems to carry their chargers. 2-3 years ago really I don't remember any Mac user carrying a charger.

cshenton2• 8 years ago

Likely because a new MacBook is no longer backwards compatible with the last 3-5 iterations of chargers.

gschier• 8 years ago

The new laptops have much worse battery life under load. I have the 13" non-touchbar (best battery life) and, with light work, I can get about 7 hours. However, if I'm doing anything CPU-intensive that goes down to 3 or 4. I think it's even worse with the dedicated GPUs.

whatever12• 8 years ago

I guess that unpredictable battery life is way worse than short battery life, in terms of battery anxiety.

kanishkdudeja2• 8 years ago

Unless they release a video depicting how the new keyboard has improved, I see fewer people trusting Apple on this one.

victor106• 8 years ago

Anyone here knows if we can upgrade existing post 2017 MacBook Pro’s from 16gb to 32gb?

anentropic5• 8 years ago

yahyaheee• 8 years ago

With the amount of repairs needed on the keyboard it’s unbelievablee they didn’t even mention that issue.

written on my mbp

sigzero• 8 years ago

Mention it in what way? They mention it is a new 3rd gen keyboard. They aren't going to mention anything negative in a marketing page.

bryanlarsen• 8 years ago

"... so many reports that it can be rendered inoperable by a grain of sand and that is incredibly difficult and expensive to repair or replace. This new third-generation keyboard wasn’t designed to solve those issues, Apple says."

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17563640/apple-macbook-pr...

kanishkdudeja2• 8 years ago

Wow.

giarc2• 8 years ago

Just wait until you see Apples own instructions for removing the sand.

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/ht205662

satysin5• 8 years ago

I don't see the problem? Holding at an angle and using compressed air is the most sensible way to dislodge a small foreign object from under a key.

atonse• 8 years ago

Oh crap, this is the only thing I cared about. Ok so it's a no-go from day one.

I don't care if Apple has a 4 year warranty program for the keyboard. The fact is, I can't give up my main laptop for 2-5 days every 6 months to have them fix it for free.

enjeyw• 8 years ago

I take advantage of Apple's no questions asked return policy for stuff like this:

Take my laptop in to be repaired, buy a brand new MBP at the same time. Load everything onto the new laptop using a time machine backup (takes about 2 hours), and use that while they're repairing my laptop.

When my laptop is fixed, I pick it up and return the one I bought at the same time for a full refund.

It's a bit of fuss making sure I keep the 'free-hire' laptop completely pristine, but it's fun to use a brand new machine every so often.

slantyyz9• 8 years ago

I find it odd that "so many" reports are related to a grain of sand. I get a lot of dirt in my keyboards, but never sand. But maybe that's because I don't use a laptop on a beach or construction site?

A grain of salt (ahem) would be much more believable.

trevor-e• 8 years ago

Sand is everywhere, it doesn't require you to be at a beach or construction site. In the northeast, they salt/sand the roads every winter and plenty of it ends up inside my house. Not hard to believe that it can transfer to my hands/clothes and eventually my laptop.

pier252• 8 years ago

I don't believe it for one second.

This is of course PR bs to prevent adding more wood to the bonfire.

coldseattle2• 8 years ago

Pros need an escape key.

rc_bhg• 8 years ago

It's a very important key.

ghostwreck• 8 years ago

I was with you until I remapped caps lock to esc. It's really an enhanced, bigger, easier access esc key now. And I don't miss caps lock.

modzu5• 8 years ago

all this talk about the specs and no mention whatsoever about ports. people. cpu speed has basically reached a plateau. its the least relevant thing to talk about.

masklinn4• 8 years ago

It's an internals change, the case itself has not changed, what would be the point of mentioning that the connectivity is the exact same?

They also didn't mention RAM on the 13", because the 13" remains on LPDDR3 and thus there was no change to the possible configurations set.

modzu5• 8 years ago

ah ok, well thats disappointing. still, glad to see larger ssds. its taking a very long time (years and years) for their capacities to grow

Naomarik• 8 years ago

I clicked on the link hoping that there would be an option with no emoji bar. Unfortunately this is another generation of disappointing MacBooks I will pass on.

walterbell2• 8 years ago

Is this the only x86 laptop where disk encryption keys are not vulnerable to Spectre attacks, since they are on T2 Arm processor that doesn’t support speculative execution? Or, if T2 does support speculative execution, it only runs trusted code?

vel0city• 8 years ago

OPAL-certified drives running in OPAL mode are not vulnerable to Spectre attacks, as the encryption happens on-disk and not in the OS or application processor.

duxup2• 8 years ago

All the keyboard talk is kinda lost on me as I still hate typing on any laptop keyboard and drag one of these around with my laptop: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYX26BC/

It seems silly but I'm more worried about typing.

It might be something to consider for those with keyboard issues.

spudlyo• 8 years ago

You are not alone. My laptop travels from work to home in my backpack and is immediately plugged into a dock connected to my Kinesis keyboard, mouse and monitor where I do all my serious work. I guess I mostly use my laptop like it's a desktop.

I think the touch bar is dumb, but I must admit I do like the fingerprint sensor, and it's cool I can use it to unlock 1Password now. The built-in keyboard is mostly fine for the light typing I do on it taking notes in a meeting or something.

duxup2• 8 years ago

Fingerprint sensors are one of those things I was all "naw I don't need that" until I got one ;)

I'm the same, in my bag basically a mini docking station with usb hub, keyboard and mouse travel with me.

eric_khun• 8 years ago

Deciding between with/without touchbar. Is there a real difference between both? I'm really bad comparing hardware. Here the main difference I've notice:

Non-touchbar:

• Up to 2.5GHz dual-core Intel Core i7, with 64MB of eDRAM

• 2 USB-c ports

• Intel Iris Plus Graphics 640

With-touchbar:

• Up to 2.7GHz quad-core Intel Core i7 with 128MB of eDRAM

• Intel Iris Plus Graphics 655

• 4 USB-c ports

As a developer point of view, it looks like the non-touch bar is a good option, and there is not a big gap between both?

jaxondu3• 8 years ago

13” inch non touch bar is last year model, no upgrade to keyboard and with 7th gen CPU. This refresh updates only the touchbar models with new keyboard design and 8th quad core CPU, which could means significant CPU performance improvement.

samcat1163• 8 years ago

The non-touchbar model didn't get any updates, its the 2017 model with the 7th gen processors.

azhenley2• 8 years ago

This. There is supposedly a large difference in performance between these CPU generations.

azhenley2• 8 years ago

Non-touchbar's wifi card supports up to 867Mbps while the touchbar's wifi card supports up to 1300Mbps.

pentae4• 8 years ago

Adding to what others here have said, non-touchbar has one fan instead of two and runs hotter even at idle. Apple really doesn't want anyone to buy it.

robinwassen• 8 years ago

Related question: Anyone that has tried an eGPU for a MacBook Pro and care to share their experiences if it is worth it?

I am looking for something to make my workstation high performance for handling multiple monitors while I have the flexibility of just grabbing the computer and run into a meeting with it.

TimMeade4• 8 years ago

I run the mid 2016 15" with two dell 27" 4k monitors over thunderbolt 3. Also use the mbp monitor open so really 3 monitors. Use a dock that break them out to display port.

Works absolutely fantastic. Not a gamer, developer though.

jhack• 8 years ago

(All prices Canadian)

- A $2400 entry price for a quad-core 13" Macbook Pro. - Minimum $3675 spend for a Macbook with 32GB of memory (and still only comes with 256GB of storage). - Non-touchbar Macbook Pro stagnating with 7th-gen dual-core at the same exact price.

Looks like I'll be holding on to my 2014 model like grim death.

TheCowboy• 8 years ago

Has anyone here bought or used the Thinkpad Retro? I'm curious about what people think who have used it for awhile. This iteration of the MBP still doesn't seem to be what I'm looking for.

nkcmr• 8 years ago

I would pay a lot for a 15 of the current model that did NOT have a touch bar. Everything about the new MBPs I can deal with except that.

Also, the fact that they keep the higher spec-d models with the touch bar and if you want no touch bar you have to get low-spec-d 13s is downright hostile to consumer choice.

Please Apple, you're leaving money on the table here.

chrisseldo• 8 years ago

I thought this was a top post because they were removing the touch bar :(

darreld• 8 years ago

This release finally ends my relationship with Apple laptops. I was hoping for a more capable non-touchbar version with a fixed keyboard. I won't spend that much for a machine that has a feature I dislike. Time to move on for me. Also the price for a 32gb/1TB model is a bit much.

moistoreos• 8 years ago

I don't understand why they don't have the same CPU/RAM spec for both models. The 13" is the perfect size and it's not like they can't make it happen. dumb.

mtw• 8 years ago

Not recent, but last time I bought a new MacBook Pro, it was $1800. Now starting price is $2400. Is there similar inflation for other laptop manufacturers or it's just Apple?

calebm2• 8 years ago

My goal memory/storage specs for my next laptop is 32Gb, 1Tb SSD. But that is only available in the 15" (I prefer 13"), and it costs $3600 (which is more than I'm willing to spend at this time).

ken• 8 years ago

It's not just laptops. You could get an entry-level Power Mac G4 in 2003, or Power Mac G5 in 2004, for $1499 (~$2000 in today's dollars). Today the Mac Pro starts at $2999.

The cost of entry to the Apple world has gone down, but the cost of entry to the Apple pro world has gone up.

erickj2• 8 years ago

mehhh... 32GB of RAM might have been interesting in my laptop 5 years ago, but with cheap and nearly infinite VPS instances at the execution of a script, large amounts of local memory is hardly a requirement for developers anymore.

For creative professionals it will help; but as a software professional I see no reason to be interested in Macs anymore.

I'm sure the top tier model will push nearly $4000. frankly Apple lost me to Fedora/Gnome-Shell about 4 years ago with slow or no updates to their core software applications (Terminal.app... really?), less than impressive hardware when compared against Dells or Thinkpads, and a vertically integrated walled garden model that I just didn't want to be part of anymore.

But.... hey look, more clock cycles. Wooohooo, I guess

zubie7a• 8 years ago

I don't mind about touchbar being there or not, just make escape key physical again :-(

It's not that hard, I mean, esc takes half the size of a regular key. Right below it in old Macbooks we have a full sized key just for ~` they could make the space of this full sized key contain instead two half sized keys.

The top would be esc, the bottom would be ~`. If you notice the Macbook already has this, for the up/down arrows. They are two half sized keys taking the footprint of a single full sized key.

Eric_WVGG4• 8 years ago

You can remap caps lockto ESC iin System preferences / keyboard. Took me under thirty minutes to get used to.

The split key thing is an intriguing idea, but I don’t think ESC is something you want to accidentally trigger.

api2• 8 years ago

Looks like they incrementally improved the three biggest gripes about the last generation. You can now have up to 32GB RAM, the keyboard is better, and battery life is slightly better.

Apple seems to have a "tick-tock" release cadence these days, at least with laptops. If you want the best machine maybe wait for the "tock?"

j453• 8 years ago

Only the 15" can go to 32GB ram. The 13" cannot which is a bummer.

GingerBoats• 8 years ago

The price point just doesn't make sense any more. The 15 inch model starts out at $2800. You can get a much better machine, hardware wise, from competitors at the same price.

samcat1163• 8 years ago

Interested in trying out the new Black Magic eGPU. I freaking love Black Magic products and the price of this is very reasonable, like most of their products.

rch3• 8 years ago

Radeon, so still no CUDA.

csomar• 8 years ago

I'm definitively buying this one. Upgraded RAM and processors. Good Graphic card. And 512Gb of SSD is plenty for my line of work.

Now to the issues:

- The keyboard: I don't know. I say wait and see. I'll probably wait a few months to see if there are any bad news. Worst case scenario, I'll just take extra care.

- Touchbar: Do not mind this one.

- Battery life: I'm concerned that the top spec laptop will have poor battery life.

I think this macbook is good given that it is an update not a new re-design. I say wait and see.

pixelHD• 8 years ago

Aren't they supposed to be the same GPUs as before, but with a little overclock? Hence the _x_ branding to the name

satysin5• 8 years ago

I have ordered a 15" 2.6Ghz/32GB/1TB model, I am just hoping they have improved the keyboard reliability.

conatus• 8 years ago

In the world outside of Macs how much would £2,699.00 get me and what would be worth getting? For development work.

virtualwhys2• 8 years ago

Dell Precision 5530 looking like a killer machine at that price point.

navidfarhadi• 8 years ago

It definitely looks like a nice machine and probably the best competitor to the 15" rMBP right now (alongside it's twin the XPS 9570) but do a search for all of the QC issues on the Precision 5510/5520/5530 and XPS 9550/9560/9570 and you will quickly see that there are a huge number of problems with this computer. That said, you can configure it with Dell's "Next Business Day" international onsite service (which is more like service in 2-3 days, at least based on my anecdotal experience) which is a nice touch.

I've spent a very long time researching 15" mobile workstations for the last year or two since I will eventually need a replacement to my 2015 15" rMBP and I have come to the conclusion that pretty much every one of them has some sort of huge deal breaker for me. At this point I'm just hoping that my 2015 15" rMBP can last for another couple of years while we await some design refreshes from Lenovo, Dell, and Apple.

codeisawesome• 8 years ago

I was hoping for this refresh to have powerful not-touchbar models.

pervycreeper• 8 years ago

What's a "pro", anyway? The category of people who use computers for work is a comprehensive one.

pentae4• 8 years ago

According to Apple, someone who can afford to spend $1300-$6000 on a laptop.

DennisP• 8 years ago

I like mechanical keyboards, and they pretty much all use regular USB. Last year my employer gave me a new Pro, so I bought some adapters to plug in my mech. Somehow I kept losing them. I've got multiple keyboards, other computers that don't need the adapters, and with all the shuffling around they just disappeared one after another.

New Pro looks nice but I don't think I want to do that again.

kev0092• 8 years ago

Wonder why they wont put the xeon in there with ECC. Lenovo P50/P51 are still my choice.. 2x nvme, ECC, 4k color corrected, undeniably superior keyboard

umanwizard3• 8 years ago

Because 99.99% of laptop users have no need for ECC.

kev0092• 8 years ago

It doesn't really hurt anything, especially with Apple's purchasing power. The "pro" in there means something to a lot of people, if you are doing a live DJ set and your laptop crashes it can be catastrophic for instance. Rare, maybe, but yes studies confirm bit flips are real and at 32GB you are going to see them a few times a year. A DJ isn't going to necessarily know that adding $50 to the BOM and $100 to the purchase price is worthwhile, but a company like Apple is one of the few that can make good design decisions like this for their users.

Also the caches and data buses in the very same computer are all ECC protected. This is basically intel propagating ignorance, and Apple not stepping up. They whiffed on APFS and data checksums too.

soarix• 8 years ago

do y'all think, as a programmer as well as an adobe user (photoshop, lightroom, premiere pro, etc), that upgrading ram, storage, or processor on a 15" is best?

nepeckman• 8 years ago

I'd upgrade RAM if you anticipate using such resource heavy applications. The processors are pretty close in speed, I would anticipate RAM being more helpful.

alexandercrohde• 8 years ago

Wake me up when it has control-alt-delete.

Shivetya• 8 years ago

I am simply glad to see the T2 chip move into more lines as the promise of more secure storage appeals to me and likely others.

anentropic5• 8 years ago

I wish I could get the non-Touch Bar 13" with the maxed out processor and RAM

NDizzle• 8 years ago

Apparently I had twins in 2013, as I'm not giving up my 2013 MBP in the same way that I'm not giving up my son.

Can I please buy a 15" macbook without the touch bar? Thanks!

mariopt3• 8 years ago

Finally we've up to data CPUs but now it's even more overpriced.

Guess Dell just won a new customer, the XPS line is really good in specs and price.

3.846,71 euros ~= 4500 USD for 4 Tb of SSD storage? Long live Hackintosh, macOs is good but the price isn't just there.

rch3• 8 years ago

I'm with you but not because of price. It is still under $4K with a 1TB SSD, which is right in line with my other MPBs. I'd expect to spend about the same on the now inevitable Dell.

mariopt3• 8 years ago

LOL

3.846,71 euros ~= is ONLY for the 4 Tb SSD.

If I buy the cheapest 15 inch and only upgrade the SSD I have to pay: 6.986,98 € ~= 8.200,00 USD

Prices in Europe are always higher than the states. On time I found out that I would save 100 euros If I took a flight to New York, stayed there for and maximum of 2 days to buy it :D

The prices are just INSANE, I built a Hackintosh for 800 euros and it is faster than the latest iMac 2017 with the maximum specs. Damn, I'm even using an Haswell CPU (i7 4790k) not the latest ones.

I get that Apple is making it's own hardware and it's good enough to rival top brands, example: Apple SSDs are in line with Samsung 970 Pro M.2 in terms of performance. Also the industrial design is second to none but it's just a terrible investment even for programmers.

With iPhone 8: same story, if you drop it and you're unlucky to break the screen and the back plate: It is cheaper to buy a new iPhone :D

smaili• 8 years ago

Does anyone know if Apple has any policy in place for those customers who recently purchased a Macbook Pro without these new upgraded specs? Can they be turned in for these newer models with an upgrade fee of some kind?

BillinghamJ3• 8 years ago

You can return it within 14 days, no questions asked.

timrichard• 8 years ago

Is anyone aware of any upgrade options for a machine that's older but still quite new (end of Jan this year) - highest MBP spec at the time?

I did see one Apple trade-in programme, but it seems oriented towards much older models with a max trade-in value to match.

some_account3• 8 years ago

Those bezels look real ugly compared to Huawei Matebook X Pro and other innovative companies like Dell.

I guess it comes down to if developers keep wanting MacOS. New MacBook is faster and supports 32 gb of memory if you want to pay astronomical sums of money.

jdlyga• 8 years ago

Ctrl+F keyboard

Good

non-nil2• 8 years ago

The machines released today were obviously in the pipeline long before the most recent wave of Mac backlash, so it's probably a mistake to call them a response in any way.

Still, when Apple spec out their base configs like this, at these prices? I find it hard not to get the message.

The entire line is under-specced by about 50%, or $500 too expensive. Fix that, and I'd still mutter about the Touch Bar, but I'd do it carrying it out of the store. Now? I'll hold off upgrading for at least a few more years.

fhood2• 8 years ago

I agree with your first statement, but apple products have always been too expensive. Eventually you just learn to live with it.

non-nil2• 8 years ago

Absolutely, and I have been happy to pay that premium. Still am for some product categories (iPad). But a mid-2018 laptop for $2400 that comes with 256GB of storage?

Given what a small piece of the pie Mac sales now represent, their company wide profit margins would be infinitesimally affected by equipping their flagship laptop with at least a 512 GB stick.

Bill it to marketing if it helps, but Jesus, throw us a fucking bone.

j453• 8 years ago

Really disappointing to see a 16GB RAM on 13" MBP continue to be the max.

HP and Lenovo have no problem offering 32 Gb in a similarly sized machine.

It seems Apple is more interested in forcing people up to the 15" for 32 GB - it might just be time to look at windows again for development / vm purposes. There is zero practicality in lugging around a 15" laptop compared to a 13" after having owned both.

While 32GB of ram makes sense for a 15" discrete GPU laptop, 16G will limit the number of vms or services that can run locally.

+1 for CPU updates

mullikine2• 8 years ago

The touch bar is an ergonomic nightmare.

Apple's soul truly died back in 2011 with the loss of Steve Jobs.

Their computers are now appropriate funeral attire. Lifeless, fragile and gaunt. The operating system, a pale reflection of the past, reminds me of disney movies and EA games these days -- forumlaic, unimaginative, designed to take your money. iTunes sucks the soul right out of you. It's Apple's laboratory and you're the experiment. Welcome to an homogenous, sterile prison of an operating system. You're no longer unique, nor empowered with an Apple computer. When the shallow keyboards make your fingers sore, when you need to replace the $600 display of your 12" macbook because you pinched the screen for the first time, you'll lose your love for Apple. Something like this will happen to you

lloeki3• 8 years ago

The touch bar is an ergonomic nightmare. > Apple's soul truly died back in 2011 with the loss of Steve Jobs.

Hilariously, the TB was in the works way before Job's disappearance (according to a tweet by Bret Victor I can't find right now).

mullikine2• 8 years ago

Now that is irony.

kps4• 8 years ago

Long ago, Apple sold keyboards that are regarded as some of the best ever made (up with the IBM M, but quiet).

‘I asked [Jobs] if he would sign my Apple Extended Keyboard. He burst out: “This keyboard represents everything about Apple that I hate. It’s a battleship. Why does it have all these keys? Do you use this F1 key? No.” And with his car keys he pried it right off. “How about this F2 key?” Off they all went. “I’m changing the world, one keyboard at a time,” he concluded in a calmer voice.’ — Steve Jurvetson at https://web.archive.org/web/20111007191749/http://www.busine...

lloeki3• 8 years ago

The tweet, sent upon reveal of the Touch Bar: https://twitter.com/worrydream/status/791767756928462848

heartbreak• 8 years ago

What exactly is formulaic about Moana and Coco?

qaq• 8 years ago

Nice update but SSD 1TB to 2TB upgrade $700 ???

domenukk• 8 years ago

Also new to MacBook Pro is the Apple T2 chip, first introduced in iMac Pro. With the Apple T2 chip, MacBook Pro now delivers enhanced system security with support for secure boot and on-the-fly encrypted storage, and also brings “Hey Siri” to the Mac for the first time.

Boring security stuff, boring security stuff, oh, and Hey Siri Support! Now that is really what the world has waited for.

superplussed• 8 years ago

Does anyone know when the store will update? Here in Germany it says on the sales page 8th generation Intel chips, and when I go to the sales page it is all still 7th generation.

tbrock• 8 years ago

The most interesting thing here is that Apple previously did not ship 32gb ram in laptops because it was not available as a LPDDR3 single chip. Here you see the 15 inch models now use DDR4 (not LP - low power).

Basically Phil Schiller relented and said, meh, fuck it, lets give them what they want and put the more power hungry DDR4 in there. I wonder why the chip manufacturers couldn't make LPDDR4 or 32gb LPDDR3 modules after all this time.

Dunedan4• 8 years ago

Well, it's a limitation of Intel's processors. Either you use LPDDR3 which maxes out at 16GB or you go with DDR4, which is more power hungry, but allows more than 16GB.

jadedhacker• 8 years ago

Wait, 6 cores is a 70% speedup but 4 cores is a 2x speedup? What?

FullyFunctional• 8 years ago

Meh, doesn't solve any of my current problems (eg. reverting the touch bar would be one fix). Had they offered a 17" version, I would have been all over it.

poulsbohemian• 8 years ago

For all the talk about the keyboard and Touch Bar, isn't this the first MBP to offer 32gb of ram and an i9 processor? I can live with the keyboard, I don't care about the touch bar, but the ram and processor are the main reasons I've been holding out buying a new one.

artellectual• 8 years ago

The New 15inch maxed out ram and cpu + the blackmagic eGPU + the new ultrawide from LG at 5k2k and you have a perfect setup.

reaperducer3• 8 years ago

What people on HN don't seem to understand is that developers are a tiny fraction of the professionals who use a MacBook Pro.

The "Pro" doesn't mean "developer."

addedlovely• 8 years ago

Too late, just got a refurbished 2015 model instead. Looks like a step in the right direction, but quite how Apple justify those prices for the hard drive upgrades is beyond me!

pejrich• 8 years ago

YES!...YES!...YES!..."MBP's with the touch bar" close window Fuck that.

makecheck2• 8 years ago

They need to take a page from “G4 Cube” and kill this entire product design, not tweak it.

Touch Bar adds cost (both money and battery) for a net negative in functionality and has no external-keyboard equivalent. Wrong design, take it out.

Machine is thin enough to cause unwanted trade-offs in capacity and performance. Wrong design, take it out.

“Improved” keyboard means waiting more years to see if it breaks, whereas “reverted 100% to 2013 keyboard” might have created instant customers. Flaky keyboard frought with risk? Wrong design, take it out.

There is nothing about this design that deserves risking spending so much money on it. They haven’t truly fixed any of the requests (except maybe maximum RAM).

danpalmer• 8 years ago

To play devils advocate...

- I rebound caps lock to ESC, it is noticeably more comfortable to type on.

- I use Touch ID loads, it makes having a long password much more practical for things like login/1Password.

- I don't use the Touchbar much, but for volume/screen brightness it's ok. Net positive with the above.

- I love typing on the keyboard, it's a significant improvement on the 2013 design for me, mine is fairly dusty, no issues. It also now has a 4 year (?) warranty.

- My battery life is noticeably better than with my 2013 laptop (despite that laptop having a battery in excellent health).

- It's fast, especially with the PCI-E SSD.

I really found very few trade-offs. It was maybe £150 more than I thought was a reasonable price, but that's < 10%.

sneak5• 8 years ago

How do you know they haven’t done precisely this? It takes more than 18 months to bring a brand new case and motherboard design to market. This could have been underway for more than a year now. (To be clear: I don’t think they have. But if they did, neither you nor I would know.)

ltc55052• 8 years ago

If they want to talk about "courage," admitting the flaws of their recent designs and reverting, or at least bringing back some of the features users are concerned about along side the current offerings would take courage. Aside from production, which I am pretty confident they could easily sort out, there is no reason they can't bring a 2015-styled MBP with beefed specs back on the market.

0xFFC• 8 years ago

Shoot. Isn’t there a new model of 14”?

diegorbaquero• 8 years ago

We need a version without the touch bar. Please. We are begging it.

kbd3• 8 years ago

This is so frustrating. I'm a longtime/loyal Apple customer, but they refuse to make any hardware lately I'm willing to buy. I don't want a laptop with a touchbar. They don't make any desktop computers: Their last Mac Pro was a disaster, the Mac Mini hasn't been updated in many years, and the iMac Pro is just a (powerful) laptop on a desk. I need to upgrade my home computer and I guess I'm switching to Linux?

sneak5• 8 years ago

The iMac Pro is absolutely nothing close to “a powerful laptop on a desk”. You’re fooling yourself with your narrative.

kbd3• 8 years ago

By laptop-on-a-desk I mean it's non-upgradeable with an integrated monitor. It's not a desktop machine.

jedberg• 8 years ago

Does anyone have any thoughts on this other than the keyboard?

I thought most people use their MacBook the same way I do — docked to a full size keyboard and big monitor 95% of the time.

So I don’t really care much about the keyboard. I almost never use it.

What do you guys thing about the other upgrades? Would you get this assuming you didn’t care about the keyboard?

silverlake• 8 years ago

Why not use a desktop w/ Linux then? Or a cloud machine? I do the same as you but I'm beginning wonder if a light MacBook & beefy Desktop is a better model.

lev992• 8 years ago

Faster CPU and more memory while still running OSX? My only complaint is it doesn't come with a GPU upgrade.

I love the touchpad, the os, and the thunderbolt ports. The 10% of the time I have my computer undocked the keyboard doesn't bother me and interacting with the touchbar never was a problem. I'll buy one with the i9 and 2TB SSD within the next 72 hours to replace my 2016 MBP.

nkkollaw• 8 years ago

So, they didn't seem to have fixed the horrible keyboard problems that all their newer model of laptops have.

Why would anyone spend this much money on a laptop, with 2 class actions in the going and Apple not even seriously acknowledging the problem?

timvisee• 8 years ago

So, let's bet; everyone will be having the same keyboard issues as the last two models.

I'm sad to see it's 'not a radical difference'.

cakeface• 8 years ago

The 32GB RAM bump is huge. This will be the first MacBook that has greater than 16GB of RAM since 2012. That's a 6 year plateau where MacBook RAM was capped at 16GB.

Meanwhile that whole time RAM prices dropped and servers and desktops have been packed with more and more and more RAM. Not every workload needs that much but I have certainly hit limits when doing large heap dump analysis, local processing of large data sets, running many many local services to try to debug. I'm very happy with the change.

eruci• 8 years ago

And they will keep making the default HDD smaller so that you will subscribe to icloud for storage

rconti• 8 years ago

This seems like a pretty unusual/rare step of releasing an upgrade with just a press release; they clearly wanted to get this machine out before some part of the buying cycle rather than waiting for a press event. I know it's still just a spec bump, but it's different enough that it would normally appear at an event.

I don't need to rehash all of the 2015 vs touchbar arguments, the touchbar machine is "good enough" that I like it as my work machine. But as my 2011 Air home "kitchen table" machine (128gb ssd/4gb RAM) is getting infuriatingly slow, I realized I don't have to decide between a Macbook or a Macbook Pro to replace it. Suddenly buying a gently used 2015 Macbook Pro to replace it seems like a killer idea. Not quite as svelte as my work machine, and nowhere near as light as the air, but for a versatile home/travel machine, having the great keyboard, USB ports, and most importantly, CHEAPER than a brand new one, would really sell me.

schappim3• 8 years ago

It is not unusual or rare for Apple to announce (what they consider) mere spec bump releases via press release. Apple has a long history of doing this.

dbbk3• 8 years ago

I don't even think the MacBook has had a keynote reveal since the first one right? Every update has been a small press gathering and press release.

spacey• 8 years ago

I was waiting for this new update, hoping for a Pro Model without touchbar. Apple lost a customer in me now.

Time to look for new alternatives, the HUAWEI MateBook X Pro is something that I am excited to give a try. I just hope that the Linux support for it will become a bit better.

smpetrey• 8 years ago

The new keyboard has the same dimensions and look as its two predecessors, but the keys feel just a little bit different. They're quieter, for one thing. They have a softer, less click-y feel that is a little closer to the pre-2016 models' chiclet keys. We found the new keyboard to be a little nicer to type on, but it's not a radical difference. It's unlikely to convert the detractors, but it's a welcome iteration for those who liked or didn't mind the previous butterfly keyboards.

So, I guess this is the fix we've been waiting for huh?

narven• 8 years ago

too late (waited a few years for a apple laptop with proper specs). Dell XPS sounds much better.

PerfectElement• 8 years ago

I'm hesitant to get this because the touchpad looks huge compared to my 2014 MacBook Pro. I'm looking at where I rest my hands and I think I would be constantly touching on the touchpad while typing. Does anyone have this issue?

RussianCow4• 8 years ago

I was afraid of this as well, but in practice it has never been an issue for me. Apple did a really good job making it ignore your palms.

issa3• 8 years ago

I own a touchbar MPB and the last model without one. I use both and I wish I could fuse the best elements of the two together. I would GLADLY trade a smaller touchpad for an extra row of keys on the keyboard. The touchbar would be a fine addition if it didn't replace the function keys. My biggest complaint by far is not having hardcoded volume buttons and an escape key.

abledon3• 8 years ago

So much for holding out for a CUDA compatible GPU to do machine learning on...

chrisper• 8 years ago

Isn't CUDA Nvidia only? Apple and Nvidia are not in good terms, I believe.

abledon3• 8 years ago

Ya I was hoping they would come to an agreement ;(

jamieqw• 8 years ago

It’s 2018 and in the MacBook lineup, Apple is still selling laptops with:

- 480p webcam (MB) - NonRetina displays (MBA) - Huge display bezels (all) - inconsistent keyboards (MBA vs all others)

I guess it take “courage” to no longer innovate the Mac laptop line.

sneak5• 8 years ago

The $999 MBA is Apple’s best selling computer. It would be ridiculous for them to discontinue it without another laptop at that price point to replace it.

Sean-P• 8 years ago

Yet Apple leaves severe bugs in their terminal, which causes every open terminal to crash, unfixed for years after the bug has been reported. Yet Apple requires 3rd party applications for basic window management: http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/sizeup/, https://manytricks.com/witch/. Yet Apple presents a macOS API so crippled, that sending a window to the back isn't even directly possible: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/233687/how-can-i-s....

debaserab2• 8 years ago

I've used Terminal almost every day for the past 10 years and it's not crashed even one time. I can understand why sending a screen to the back wouldn't be a part of the API for security reasons alone. I think you're digging at some pretty niche edge cases.

jwr• 8 years ago

I'm disappointed: no USB ports that I can use (I don't have a single peripheral that plugs into USB-C and it's unlikely that any of my peripherals will be "updated"), useless touchbar instead of the function key row, the same "ultra-thin" form factor sacrificing battery life and keyboard for "thinness" (which I don't need), and keyboard which is still an unknown.

I wish Apple had serious competition. As in: competition that makes an integrated hardware/OS combination that is comparable to what Apple makes.

bt3• 8 years ago

I wish Apple had serious competition. As in: competition that makes an integrated hardware/OS combination that is comparable to what Apple makes.

Microsoft and their Surface line comes to mind. I've read nothing but good things about the Surface Book 2.

kerng• 8 years ago

The price says it all - totally not worth it. There are a lot better options available.

s2g• 8 years ago

3600 with 32GB ram and 1TB ssd.

I'd probably get one, but I don't use it for work and my 2013 is still trucking along just fine.

Actually I could probably get a decent chunk of money for it and then use that to help finance a new one. hmmm

I'll wait and see if the keyboards are still crap.

gxx• 8 years ago

I have limited eyesight - good enough to work on a bright magnified computer screen. When I bought a new Macbook Pro I couldn't read the Touchbar and of course there's no tactile feedback. It's even worse that the keys can change with context. Due to my eyesight I also often tweak the screen brightness for best readability with the up/down function keys. The slider doesn't work well for incremental adjustments especially when you can't see it clearly.

I returned the Macbook within a week and had to buy a lower model with real function keys.

I tried configuring fixed locations for the most important keys but could not work without the tactile feedback of being centered on a given key. I guess there's some sort of voiceover but it would be annoying and slow. I didn't need voiceover before so why would I want to use it now to accommodate Apples latest gimmick?

Actually I wonder if it would work to add tactile feedback by 3D printing a thin overlay that adds frames around keys configured for fixed location. Or maybe someone could offer a product that is a Touchbar overlay made of clingy silicone?

Edit: Something else I wanted to add: I've tried switching to Windows (several times) but I can't work without Apple's Ctrl + two-finger up/down full screen magnification. Window's magnifier is a poor substitute because it's not full screen. The magnifier can be made the size of the screen but then it's clunky to move the focus of magnifier, and update is jittery. If anyone from Microsoft is reading this, please look at Apple's screen zoom and give your magnifier a mode like that - a full screen infinitely variable zoom that continually centers the focus on the mouse pointer.

focal-point3• 8 years ago

Impossible! Apple is the UX king. How could they produce anything less than divine inspiration?

drudru11• 8 years ago

I am in the exact same boat. I am still on an older MacBook Air because I need those shortcuts for visibility.

brisance4• 8 years ago

Have you tried using Touch Bar Zoom? It won't solve tactile issues though. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207258

jquast• 8 years ago

I am also bad sighte, apple's zoom is very superior. Switched to Windows, Linux, and then back to mac for mainly the accessibilities features -- using an 8 year old macbook for your same reasons (big screen, no touchbar, please)

nsuser3• 8 years ago

Let's call it the MacBook Pro Pro

chasing• 8 years ago

The first line of this press release should say:

"We have done a thorough review of the keyboard issues people have been experiencing and have made a series of significant improvements..."

That's literally all I care about. As I sit here typing on my MacBook Pro with a second keyboard sitting on top of the completely unusable built-in keyboard.

sneak5• 8 years ago

Most people who are considering buying this computer have never heard about any keyboard issues.

kin• 8 years ago

This hardware should have been here in the previous iteration. Also, I've yet to meet a single person who fancies the touch bar. It's now just something that's tolerated. Bring back the hard keys, shorten the oversized track pad, and add a shorter touch bar to the top if you really want to keep it.

gnicholas7• 8 years ago

Will the non-touchbar MBPs continue to ship with the prior version of the keyboard?

I can see why Apple wouldn't go around trumpeting that the old models are getting upgraded, since it could dampen sales for the high-end models. At the same time, it would be pretty lousy to ship new units with keyboards that they've basically admitted are borderline defective (by offering a 4-year replacement program).

mcculley2• 8 years ago

Just having 32GB is enough to make me consider upgrading. But man, why can't they ship an LTE modem?

brisance4• 8 years ago

Maybe because they have a dispute with Qualcomm…?

mcculley2• 8 years ago

Yes, I do think it must have something to do with that. There is no good technical reason why they would not have one.

_zachs• 8 years ago

My most recent personal laptop (after having been a MacBook user for a while) is a ThinkPad with ArchLinux. For a fraction of the price, I have a much more powerful laptop with a much better battery life. I no longer have to worry about things like the best older version to buy to avoid things like only having 2 ports or the infamous TouchBar. Still calling these machines "MacBook Pros" is an insult.

focal-point3• 8 years ago

Apple fanbois downvotin you

notadoc2• 8 years ago

Still has a Touch Bar? With no option to get rid of that unwanted nuisance and gimmick? Does nobody at Apple use an ESCAPE key or function keys?

Pass.

gigatexal• 8 years ago

6 cores!!! Third gen butterfly keyboard — not great but hey. 4tb ssd top cpu and 32GB ram is almost 7k though...

aingisni_del• 8 years ago

I'm surprised there's only 2 top level comments on this article here.

The price point for an indie developer is quite steep. $1800 for a base level 2018 13" is the price to develop apps for the Apple ecosystem. iMac and Mac Mini are out because they're not portables. MacBook Air is pointless as it's so out of date.

At least throw in 16GB at that price point. Selling it with 8GB/256GB just hurts. I'm currently on a 2014 13" that I was able to pick up brand new for $1100 a month after release and I just can't convince myself that the new TouchID models are worth $700 more. The non-TouchID model will be around as a low priced Pro entry, but why would you want to buy last year's model with an even less performance gain (compared to the 2014 model)?

epicureanideal• 8 years ago

But they waited so long to do this upgrade that a year from now I'm already going to start complaining that it doesn't have 64 GB of RAM. They're just catching up to what is an acceptable development machine at this point.

lucian• 8 years ago

hey Apple, this is how Hacker News' MacBook Pros pain looks like:

search "keyboard" on this page ... 166 entries right now

reificator7• 8 years ago

Biggest new feature they could add would be to not have an additional screen taking up battery life and shining in my face, unable to be dimmed with f.lux.

Maybe instead we could have a row of keys that provide some sort of function, and maybe a key that allows the user to escape. That would be a pretty useful feature that I can guarantee I would use dozens or hundreds of times a day.

I'm considering replacing my MacBook Pro soon, and I might have to drop macOS from my 3 OS lineup. I can't justify an expensive but locked down desktop machine, so if the laptops aren't meeting my needs either then goodbye Apple.

tjohns3• 8 years ago

I know it's trendy to hate on the touchbar... but for what it's worth, I personally find it more useful than the old function keys.

Most mac apps don't use function keys as shortcuts, so the old keyboard ended up being used for media keys (volume, brightness, play/pause, etc.).

The touch bar gives me a better version of that (I actually get a volume slider), plus more apps actually make use of that space to provide useful shortcuts now. And the scrub bar for media playback is really great when you have audio playing in the background.

Yes, you lose tactile feedback. But battery life doesn't seem to be a big problem. At least for me, it's been net positive.

symfoniq• 8 years ago

I noticed a big regression in battery life (25-35%) between my 2013 and 2017 MacBook Pro. I don't know how much the Touch Bar had to do with it, but the 2017 was definitely worse.

aquamo2• 8 years ago

IMHO the touchbar requires more effort and distraction to control the brightness and volume. What previously was one key-press to dim/brighten or mute/volume - all without me having to take my focus from the screen now requires a multi-stages process with no tactile feedback.

No thanks. Plus the keyboard will likely have the same issues my 2016 version has. I’ve had keys replaced 4 times already.

wwweston2• 8 years ago

I know it's trendy to hate on the touchbar

The touchbar hate is not trendy. It's based in specific complaints.

If, on the balance of how you evaluate the problems and benefits of the touchbar, it's useful for you, great. That doesn't mean the primary reason people express a distaste for the touchbar is essentially a social fashion.

reificator7• 8 years ago

My pie-in-the-sky idealized computer experience is a color e-ink display with a decent framerate.

Replacing tactile buttons with a second blinding photon emitter is not progress as far as I'm concerned.

I understand all the benefits you quote, and I'm not just complaining because it's "trendy". If it was eink, I wouldn't care at all. But it's another backlit screen shining in my face. No thanks.

gilbetron• 8 years ago

The touchbar was what I thought was most idiotic before I got my macbook with it, and is the least idiotic thing after I've had my macbook. It is ok, sometimes kinda nice. If they put a physical Esc key on the far left, and a physical Mute key on the far right, and stuck the touchbar between the two, it would be actually very nice, because I agree the function keys are useless on a mac. But the touchbar utility doesn't make up for not having a physical Escape key.

buu7002• 8 years ago

Question for someone who has a touchbar: is it possible to add app shortcuts to it (like an extension of the dock)? And what about a dedicated escape button?

I use F12 throughout the day to open iTerm and Cmd+F2 to open Spotlight, and the escape key is obviously generally useful. Losing equivalent dedicated buttons/shortcuts would be a dealbreaker, but otherwise I could take or leave the function keys.

Edit: If yes to the above, are there any situations in which my configured dedicated buttons might conditionally disappear?

TheRealDunkirk• 8 years ago

The majority of my use of my MBPr is in clamshell mode, with a large external monitor, and a mechanical keyboard. Even for people who use theirs open, beside a large monitor, it's usually on a stand. So a Touch Bar is either pointless, or so unwieldy as to be useless, in these situations, respectively.

roryisok8• 8 years ago

Maybe I'm a backwards person but I barely use escape at all. I do however use the function keys, all day, every day. I have them mapped to various apps for screengrabbing, batch copy and paste of files, rename etc. Apps like keymaestro let me add extra functionality to these "spare" keys and I don't want then replaced by any damn touchbar

on_and_off• 8 years ago

Yes, you lose tactile feedback

That's the only part I really can't lose.

I like the volume slider fwiw but the regular ones worked fine too.. it is a small bonus with a massive drawback .. of course I don't like it.

Not to mention that I don't ever look at my keyboard when typing, so touchbar is just a annoying glow at the periphery of my vision.

Cd00d• 8 years ago

I wonder why they don't just through haptics into the touchbar to diminish the tactile complaint? My Galaxy S9 has touch haptics that feel rather nice.

zerr• 8 years ago

Most mac apps don't use function keys as shortcuts

Many buy MBPs for the perceived quality of hardware, and install Windows or Linux as their primary OS.

makecheck2• 8 years ago

Adding media keys did not require the loss of Function keys (“fn” toggle) so low use in apps was not a reason to remove keys entirely.

How is a touch volume slider better? Using modifier keys you can achieve any level of precision from keyboard volume keys, without looking down to find and watch what you tap. There are also slider controls already, using the mouse (both in the menu bar and System Preferences).

api2• 8 years ago

My gripe with it is that it's not sufficiently customizable. If it were heavily customizable it could be pretty useful.

yonilevy2• 8 years ago

As a heavy IntelliJ user - I use the function keys all the time. Some examples: F1: show file in project view, F2/Shift F2: next/previous error, Ctrl+F2: stop process, F3/Shift F3: find next/previous, F6: move/rename, different F7 variations: find usages, F9/F10: run/debug options, also F8-F10 - step over/into/out/continue, F12 - toggle maximize editor, etc.

I don't understand what I'm supposed to do with a touchbar, or how to otherwise remap all of these shortcuts... Sticking to my 2015 MBP for now, but I really hope Apple get their act together and release a developer-friendly model (because otherwise I'm a huge fan).

ouid3• 8 years ago

Imagine not being able to mute your sound in public because your finger doesn't have enough capacitance for some reason.

roryisok8• 8 years ago

When I'm wearing my cynic hat, the touch bar is the beginning of a plot to replace our physical keys with another screen with an image of keys. The 2030 MacBook will basically be two iPads taped together

theslurmmustflo2• 8 years ago

I think so too, especially with further improvements to the Taptic Engine. This might also lead to a more “solid state” device with less mechanical parts to worry about. I wonder if there will be a backlash or if we will all get used to it.

cityhall2• 8 years ago

The new Macbook keyboards have such low travel that they feel like a step in that direction. I like the laptop overall but I make a lot more typos than I did on my old one.

gehwartzen• 8 years ago

For me the only acceptable improvement would be if each individual mechanical key had a OLED display integrated and was fully programmable.

aequitas• 8 years ago

My biggest problem with the touchbar is that I would only be able to use it half of the time. Because when I dock my laptop it is either closed and tucked in the corner of my desk, or perched on a laptop stand. Either way the touchbar is to far away to be of any benefit. So unless Apple comes with a (bluetooth) keyboard with touchbar, I cannot integrate it into my daily workflow.

jhaile• 8 years ago

My biggest problem with the touchbar is the escape key. I hate not having tactile feeling for a key I use on a regular basis. I'm constantly missing it or hitting something on accident.

themagician• 8 years ago

This is the only problem I have with it too. I MUCH prefer having the Touch Bar. Even though I don't use it frequently, it comes in very handy for certain things, and I use it far more often than the function keys. Having a virtual escape key is just strange though. I wouldn't want to go back to a MacBook without a Touch Bar, but if they just cut out another button on the left like they have on the right for the power button and made it an escape key it would be perfect. As it is, the virtual escape key is actually pretty padded to the right. You could replace it with a hard key and not actually lose any space. You might actually gain a few usable pixels.

acchow• 8 years ago

I've had Caps Lock mapped to escape for years. You used to need some tool to do this, but now you can do it right inside Keyboard settings "Modifier Keys".

Make sure you choose the real keyboard if you also have a Yubikey plugged in :)

fit2rule• 8 years ago

I've had a touchbar-mBP since release day, and I've only just recently found a use for the touchbar: in Zoom, to start recording the session, and in iTerm to change the colours.

Just this week I noticed with surprise that I'm actually using the touchbar 'productively' in this fashion - but its been a long time coming.

However I'd throw away this newfound appreciation of the touchBar in an instant, if both of these apps just .. you know .. had icons for the task. Maybe some sort of strip of icons, even ...

fcbrooklyn14• 8 years ago

I had to replace my 2015 MBP last week, because the kb started failing (it wasn't one of the ones eligible for a free repair, sadly, and I can't live without a machine for however long it takes them to fix it anyway). I was really torn, because although I could reluctantly live without the function keys, the escape key is a complete dealbreaker.

After much debate I decided to take a chance on a surface book. I figured I'd try it, try and get my dev environment in a decent place, and see how I felt about windows after 30 days, with the idea that I might have to return it if things didn't work out. I'm 6 days in, and I can pretty safely say there's no way I'm going back to apple. Windows has managed not to suck at all, my dev environment is arguably better than what I had before, and I'm absolutely loving the machine itself. Most joyful new laptop experience in many years.

some_account3• 8 years ago

Really? Window sucks for me even before I log in first time, with stuff like "wait while we are setting you up, just relax...".

I switched to Linux and felt the same feeling you did though. Happiness to be back in a nice new system where I feel at home!

malnourish2• 8 years ago

Surface Book is really great; I quite liked my SOs surface. I decided to go with an XPS 13 and have been incredibly happy.

lutrinae6662• 8 years ago

What’s your dev environment look like?

mygo4• 8 years ago

Hey, what was wrong with your keyboard? Was the trackpad also not working when you had keyboard problems?

You may have had a common issue with the 2015 Macbook Pros, literally tens of thousands of people have Googled that problem on Youtube. Apple won’t admit that it’s a problem with hose models but if you take it to an Apple Store they’ll conveniently take $500 to replace the keyboard.

Anyways it’s an introduced bug due to a design flaw in the models released in 2015. They placed the ribbon cable flat on top of the battery on those models, and when the battery heats up and expands, as it does, it damages the ribbon cable. Prior models had the ribbon cable avoiding the battery by going around it. You can fix it yourself by replacing the ribbon cable. The ribbon cable costs $10 online and it’s the first thing you see when you open up the macbook, you don’t have to dig to get to it. No special equipment needed besides the screws to get the Macbook open.

briandear3• 8 years ago

Trading a touchbar escape key for Windows? As a Mac user that uses Vim, that touchbar escape seems easy to adapt to compared to adapting to an entirely different OS (and Windows at that!)

rcdmd3• 8 years ago

I cut my teeth on Windows with Microsoft Visual Studio Basic in the 2000s, then Windows/Dev-Cpp because of poor MSVC++ support for some C++ features I thought I needed at the time, switched to Mac/Vim, then had a 6ish year stent with Ubuntu and Vim as an IDE. But then a botched upgrade from 14.04 LTS to 18.04 LTS lead to a few frustrating hours of my time to get X to even load. I'll never see that time again. Now I'm back on Windows, and somehow have drudged along without installing Cygwin yet, although that's coming. Developing Java has been a pleasant experience with IntelliJ IDEA. The GUI use is taking getting used too-- but configuring IDE things like language servers is mostly automagic and have very reasonable defaults. The biggest issue I've had is Windows upgrades requiring random restarts completely interrupting my workflow. But, overall, rediscovering Windows has been a pleasant experience for me too.

balls187• 8 years ago

I use Cloud9 for 100% of my dev needs. It made switching to a Surface Book pretty easy.

jaxn• 8 years ago

I left Mac for a Surface Book a couple of years ago. It was a challenge at first. Largely because of WSL speed, but that has been mostly fixed now (test suite may be a few seconds longer, but it isn't 10x longer)

I am browsing the thread out of FOMO and don't feel any urge to switch back.

toephu2• 8 years ago

kb? Are people really abbreviating the word keyboard with "kb" now?

andrepd2• 8 years ago

I opted for a Xiaomi laptop. Best purchase I ever made. Amazing build quality, out of the box compatibility with Linux, great hardware specs. I can't believe that near MBP clone only set me back 550€.

PascLeRasc2• 8 years ago

What are you using for the terminal? I just started a new job with a Windows desktop provided and I can't get much done on it because every terminal emulator I can find sucks compared to iTerm 2 on my MBP, so much that I'm going in to IT to beg them to let me use it, or at least let me dual-boot Ubuntu. Bash on Windows has no way to add solarized light/dark or groovebox themes, much less switch between them daily like I like to do when I get stuck on something and need to see it differently. Also the Windows bash home is a no-mans-land once you want to open something up with Atom on Windows. Directories I make in Bash don't show up in File Explorer once I spend 5 minutes navigating to the right place. Font rasterizing and color-coding is awful too, on the native Bash, CMDR, and Hyper.JS. It's so frustrating.

zouhair• 8 years ago

Not yet hit by a friendly update reboot in the middle of an important compilation are we?

cloudive• 8 years ago

not sure if shill !

dbg314152• 8 years ago

Job gave me a MBP with a touch bar. In the past I've been able to grab an older MBP 15" but they were out of them. So... a small slice of electrical tape solved the issue. Ugh, it's ghetto.

It's the worst invention. Anyone who worked on it should feel bad about their existence -- like drawing mustaches on the Mona Lisa. The 2013 MBP was a perfect laptop (for the time). It's nice they finally got around to adding more RAM... that's about all I would have wanted to change on the 2013 MBP.

jonplackett2• 8 years ago

agreed. happily typing on my 2013 now. best laptop in existence. and it cost half as much.

itbeho• 8 years ago

I’m tempted to start a movement called Tape the Touchbar™. Just put a stylish piece of black electrical tape over it and pretend it’s not there.

Seriously though, I share your frustration in regards to both f.lux and external monitor/stand use. It would be nice to be able to dynamically disable the Touchbar in a user configurable way.

briandear3• 8 years ago

Can’t you use Night Shift or the built in dimming? Not sure I understand what you are saying. (Not arguing, just genuinely interested in the complaint.)

TimTheTinker2• 8 years ago

The Touch Bar can't be dimmed below a certain threshold (either manually or programmatically). Normally we use f.lux or Brightness Slider to dim the main display, but touch bar brightness can't be controlled. Makes it hard to work late at night without putting electrical tape over it.

stanislavb• 8 years ago

Yeah, it's sad. I was hoping for a version without a touch bar too :(.

I'd also say that these new Macs are the most unpopular ones among devs. It's just that we are so used to MacOS :|

omarforgotpwd• 8 years ago

They've got one without the touch bar.

TimTheTinker2• 8 years ago

My biggest gripes:

- Dongles still needed

- Touch bar can't be dimmed

intopieces• 8 years ago

Re: the function row, I wish instead of the OLED strip they would have implemented something like the Optimus Popularis:

https://store.artlebedev.com/electronics/devices/optimus-pop...

To me, this is the best of both worlds. Just put the default keys to start and then let your users pick if they want to. I prefer individual keys to tapping a screen, which is why I use a laptop and not an iPad.

jonplackett2• 8 years ago

yes - this is a damn fine idea. i'm always accidentally resting my finger on the down brightness key and only notice when the screen suddenly goes dark. keys that press = good idea.

patte3• 8 years ago

I turned away from the mac, first because the HW, second because prop. software is creaping me out more and more. I bought a lenovo T480 (big battery, higres screen, good keyboard, only the trackpad is shitty) and I installed the shiny ubuntu 18.04 and I have to say, it's the best setup I ever used. It's super stable, with some tweeking(https://github.com/erpalma/lenovo-throttling-fix) it's crazy fast, 7h+ battery life when doing web development. Even the LG UltraFine works great under linux. I never regretted it.

aogl• 8 years ago

I've been thinking about doing this too for some time now. Just not convinced which Lenovo to go for..

EatYourGreens2• 8 years ago

I bought a lenovo T480 (big battery, higres screen, good keyboard, only the trackpad is shitty) and I installed the shiny ubuntu 18.04 and I have to say, it's the best setup I ever used.

If by hires screen you mean WQHD, I am wondering what you do with absence of proper fractional scaling support by desktop environments (and how workarounds interact with external monitors).

fouc• 8 years ago

I used f.lux for 2-3 years. Then I stopped, and I haven't used f.lux for 2 years now.

The problem with f.lux is that it makes reading on the computer at night TOO comfortable. I was consistently staying up way past my bed time, and suffering for it.

Removing f.lux made it easier to go to sleep earlier. Sometimes comfort isn't worth it. I prefer getting my sleep.

greggman• 8 years ago

for those in this thread excusing the touch bar how would you feel if apple replaced the entire keyboard with a large touch surface like typing on an iPad. Great idea? Can't wait? Or Ugh?

whywhywhywhy• 8 years ago

Keep seeing people on Twitter suggesting this as a fix to the unreliable keyboard, completely ignoring that the keyboards were never unreliable until the Butterfly Switches existed.

As for the idea, well if touch keyboards are so great why have they invested so much effort in adding a physical keyboard to their Pro touch devices.

fernly• 8 years ago

Ports, dammit! I have a project of capturing old videos from VHS tapes -- via an ElGato EyeTV box WITH USB-3 OUTPUT -- and saving the captured videos onto an external 3GB hard drive WITH USB-3 I/O. I can plug these to the opposite sides of my 2013-era MBP and off we go, smooth as butter.

New MBP? Either buy an RGB video capture device with thunderbolt output (which I don't think exists) and a new enclosure for the HD, or interpose an extra dock thing.

Dunedan4• 8 years ago

Or you simply buy two USB-A-to-USB-C-Adapters for a few cents and put them permanently onto the ends of the cables. Makes the plugs a bit longer, but just works.

karmakaze• 8 years ago

As much as I agree with detractors comments here, this could be close enough. Use capslock for esc rather than ctrl and maybe someday the touch bar will have a use for me. The alternative of using Linux on another brand is fine too, so for me might just come down to configured pricing. The only minor downside is no Xcode for iOS apps. I tend to use flutter now anyway.

atomical• 8 years ago

The biggest performance boost I have had is going from an HD to an SSD. I don't think I need that much RAM anymore because of that.

DINKDINK• 8 years ago

I wonder why the marginal price of more SSD storage is positive, non linear

  +512GB | 0.78 / GB
  +1.5TB | 1.56 / GB
  +3.5TB | 1.79 / GB

Maybe the costs of getting denser chips is higher or maybe there's just enough consumer demand at those capacities to warrant the price.

buschtoens• 8 years ago

ever

vegasje• 8 years ago

The 13" model does not offer 32gb of RAM as an option.

I guess I'll have to continue waiting...

S_A_P• 8 years ago

I would advise folks to hold off on this. I've a base configuration iMac Pro. There is an issue with either the video card, T2 chip or some combination of the 2.(or maybe something entirely different) There is a kernel panic issue that has yet to be solved, even though there is a very long thread going on the apple support community. Ive been contacted by apple engineers based on my participation in the thread, so I believe they are on the verge of officially acknowledging a problem here. So far those affected have done everything from re-imaging, replacing and returning their iMac Pros and nothing has fixed this issue. I want to upgrade my macbook pro, but until they fix this, Im not buying any more macs...

self_awareness• 8 years ago

2 USB ports on the 13" version. Really? I don't get how this isn't the stupidest idea ever.

1 external monitor, and a charger.

A charger and USB ethernet card.

1 external monitor and USB ethernet card.

Pick one!

cerberusss2• 8 years ago

There are plenty of hubs with charging, ethernet and monitor built in. Of course more USB ports would be nice, but that probably comes with a price tag, as an extra Thunderbolt controller would have to be added.

JDiculous• 8 years ago

What use is updating the specs if they're going to keep that god damn touchbar? Apple is sabotaging themselves and I can't feel sorry for them because at this point they're literally ignoring their customers.

Glad I sold my Macbook Pro. Not only is it exorbitantly overpriced, it's an inferior laptop due to entirely preventable idiotic design decisions. They had something fantastic with the 2015 model, but they've thrown it away for this atrocious touchbar and uncomfortable keyboard.

garmaine• 8 years ago

It has a new keyboard, which means Apple recognized the problem with the old keyboard months, maybe a the better part of a year before the recently announced new warranty on keyboard + body replacement, long enough to design a replacement.

That's a pretty shitty thing to do to keep denying the problem and collecting repair fees from their customers in the mean time.

jhanschoo2• 8 years ago

The TouchBar models have much worse Linux compatibility. That's my make-or-break feature. :(

I won't be buying a MacBook that can't play audio through its speakers.

bvy• 8 years ago

I like the keyboard design but think it's also important to fix the reliability issues. Going back to the old design feels like the wrong thing to do.

m52go2• 8 years ago

Why is Apple's approach on introducing new things so punishing?

iPhone X - introduce Face ID AND remove Touch ID

Macbook - introduce Touch Bar AND remove physical function keys

I'm sure there are other examples but I don't follow Apple's hardware close enough to know. It doesn't have to be this way. In both cases above, both items could easily have been kept to maximize user choice AND maximize innovation at the same time.

brisance4• 8 years ago

You forgot the doozy… iPhone – a smartphone without a physical keyboard. The outrage back then was immeasurably worse. And here we are now in 2018 and where is Blackberry?

dbbk3• 8 years ago

Having both Face ID and Touch ID at the same time doesn't make sense and would just be confusing.

Having both the Touch Bar and a function key row makes even less sense. It's a replacement not an addition.

m52go2• 8 years ago

Confusing? Is having a pin code and a fingerprint reader confusing? You just pick the one you want to use.

bartread3• 8 years ago

The bump in specs is very much welcome, but I'm considerably irked by the continuation of USB-C only connectivity. I'm not joking with this. I would like, at least on the 15-inch model:

- An HDMI port

- Two mini-display ports

- At least two standard USB 3 compatible ports

- A mag-safe power connector to avoid damage to the machine, and the connector itself, if somebody (like me!) trips over the power cable

- At least they haven't got rid of the headphone socket but I'd also like the line in back, please: makes recording on the fly much more convenient, which is something I need to do reasonably regularly

Overall these additions would make the machine much more convenient and versatile when travelling because it means I don't have to carry (and find space for) a bunch of dongles that will inevitably suffer periodic loss and replacement. I know this will make the machine cost more but I JUST DON'T CARE.

Seriously Apple, the clue is in the name: Macbook Pro. Please: wake up - stop building toys and start building tools! You used to be really good at this and I don't really understand why you chose to stop.

ericabiz4• 8 years ago

I definitely recommend you check out the Dell XPS 15. I just picked one up and it has plenty of ports, an excellent display, and it’s super fast. As an added bonus, the one I got (core i9, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD) was $1100 cheaper than the equivalent MacBook Pro.

satysin5• 8 years ago

I am using a 9570 also (same specs as yours) but have an annoying audio issue with crackling/static at random times. Also some coil whine. tbh I don't expect this on a £2000+ machine. I have already had one replacement and I have ordered a new MBP as I don't think I can deal with another replacement from Dell.

Have you had any issues with your 9570?

bartread3• 8 years ago

Thanks for the recommendation. The XPS is one that keeps coming up, so it's definitely a contender. Looking to replace my current MBP within the next 12 months.

cerberusss2• 8 years ago

Do you travel so much then?

I travel between my customer, my workplace and home. I don't have a single dongle -- I just replaced the cables or bought a dock.

bartread3• 8 years ago

Yes: enough for it to be bothersome. Different customer sites, different offices, different meeting rooms with differing AV connectivity, the occasional conference in venues with a range of connectivity. I commonly encounter HDMI, Mini DisplayPort, and DisplayPort cables. I still occasionally encounter DVI and even VGA. Obviously I don't expect support for all of those but HDMI and Mini DisplayPort are extremely common so it's wearing having to have at least two dongles all of the time[1]. It's just extra crap to get lost.

[1] I also have a Microsoft Surface Pro/SurfaceBook Pro (I still can't remember which is which) that's annoying in that it has a single Mini DisplayPort and no HDMI. Even more galling, the rather expensive dock which is a pain to carry around has two MiniDisplayPorts yet still lacks HDMI.

dicroce• 8 years ago

I just switched to Mac for work 2 months ago... Before that I was using a 2016 Razer Blade Stealth (which I loved)...

Touchbar is worse than useless for me because I am constantly accidentally grazing the esc key on the touch bar with my ring finger... infuriating. Keyboard is pretty bad also... I needed to take my macbook to the apple store (thunderbolt issue) and so I had to use a loaner for a week... I got the last macbook before the 2017 one... SO much better! First of all having a variety of ports is awesome... keyboard is awesome... Why did they just not add 2 thunderbolt ports and a 4k screen to that one (and upgrade CPU etc)?

dbt00• 8 years ago

I loathe the new keyboards, touchbar included, but I'm happy they're decoupling upgrading the internal specs from finishing the promised keyboard changes.

veridies• 8 years ago

I'm looking for a path forward, and I haven't found one; I'd appreciate anyone's insight.

My actual work could be done on a Chromebook, but in my free time I do a lot of music recording, which requires me to have an SD card reader and USB ports for the myriad synthesizers and interfaces I use.

I've been getting by on a 2012 MacBook Pro, but it won't hold up forever. I've looked at Hackintoshes, but none of them seem reliable. I'm used to UNIX, I like using UNIX, and I don't trust Microsoft (after realizing that messages I was sending over Skype to a Chinese friend were being sent back to the Chinese government without notifying me). Linux would work, except there's no usable digital audio workstation.

Am I screwed? Do I have to buy a $250 dock for each room I work in as well as a $3000 machine? Seriously, what should I do?

LongTermBond007• 8 years ago

I have a 2014 retina Macbook Pro with 16 GB of RAM and it is holding up very well. Maybe look for a spec'ed out used 2014/15 edition? Battery replacement kits are available for around $100 and Apple will do it for $150 (I think...) which should buy you a few more years.

The upgrade to a retina display will be nice if you're using a 2012 laptop.

mariopt3• 8 years ago

I've been using an Hackintosh for the last 14 months and I even sold my macbook pro. The performance per dollar is amazing, you can get 32 Gb of RAM when you want, a hexacore cpu, a Samsung 970 pro M.2, etc.

In the beginning i was a little bit anxious because I read that it is unstable but it's not true, it took me around 1 month to figure out the limitations and find my own setup. My next computer is going to be an Hackintosh, I keep a 13 inch macbook pro late 2013 with a mere intel i5 dual core and 8 gigs of RAM just to do light tasks and get out of the office.

For 800 euros I built an hackintosh faster than an iMac 2018 with the maximum specs, if you live in the states, computer parts are even cheaper than in Europe.

hartator• 8 years ago

Am I the only one excited by the True Tone display?

I think my eyes are my main concern, and seeing Apple making a real push to preserve it is reassuring.

andy_ppp• 8 years ago

Of course what would be really cool is Face ID and the consequent minority report style gestures that would be possible... eventually!

brian-armstrong• 8 years ago

My predicition for the next MBP:

* No headphone port

* Entire keyboard replaced with a touch screen

* Comes with one thunderbolt port (standard), second port is +$800

dbg314152• 8 years ago

Notice no pictures of the horribly unreliable keyboard, useless touch bar, and ridiculously over-sized track pad in the marketing release.

I hope my personal MBP 2013 never dies... it's still a better machine than anything Apple has done since.

mh8h• 8 years ago

The 32GB memory option is using DDR4 memory as opposed to LPDDR3 for the older models. That's because the current Intel core i CPUS don't support more than 16GB of LPDDR. How is that going to affect the battery life?

dharma12• 8 years ago

So, who's actually buying it?

I'd like to upgrade my 2013 MBPro because the built-in camera has died and I could definitely use the speed bump in both CPU and GPU for my work.

But I'm wondering if there is a much more significant upgrade coming within 6-12 months, since Apple is not making a big deal of this upgrade?

twodayslate2• 8 years ago

I wouldn't expect anything new for about the next year. https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Retina_MacBook_Pro

dharma12• 8 years ago

ok. Bought :)

crispinb• 8 years ago

Apple's failure to retire the novelty keyboard has entirely vindicated my decision 2 weeks ago to replace my 2013 MB Pro with a Dell XPS 15. The transition to Windows has been moderately painful, but Apple now doesn't offer any laptop hardware that even makes it onto my longlist.

Were I to consider their silly current line, an equivalent MBP to my fully-spec'd XPS (6 core 2.9+, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD) would cost a ludicrous AUD$5860, compared to the $3500 I paid. My new machine has ports, a real keyboard, is very speedy, and has all the software availability one could wish for.

Macs are needed to develop for iOS and macOS, but other than that, in 2018, they seem like a pointless corporate affectation, a kind of high-priced technological suit & tie.

jacebot• 8 years ago

UPDATE: I over looked the spec part with their Intel chips... however I presume they tie directly into the T2 chip, and will probably leave them altogether in an iteration or two.

As I predicted in a former post on why they haven't updated their hardware line up... "using their T2 chip..."

This is them leaving their dependency and insecurity of Intel and AMD.

Good luck to them. I do remember a time when their ARM G series CPU's out performed x86 cpus on all things creative.

twodayslate2• 8 years ago

This seems like an actual upgrade for users still on 2013/14 hardware. Going from dual core to quad core for the 13" users sounds like it might actually be time to upgrade. The benefits of the 15" sound very compelling compared to the 13" tho!

bacon_waffle• 8 years ago

What amazing timing! I'm expecting to receive a shiny new Dell XPS today, and switch back to Linux after ~8 years on a MacBook Pro running MacOS...

bogomipz• 8 years ago

"With the option to add up to 32GB of memory on the 15-inch MacBook Pro, users can run more apps simultaneously or load larger files into memory."

So the 13 inch models are stuck with 16 Gigs. Is there a technical reason why they couldn't put 32 Gigs of RAM in the 13 inch model?

I feel like the 13 inch is the workhorse for most devs and by extension a significant portion of the 13 inc MBP user base no?

bubblethink• 8 years ago

This is such a golden opportunity served to Google on a platter. Even MS realized that they can get more sales by putting linux (wsl) on windows, and yet chromeos which is linux had no aspirations other than showing ads on chrome. At least they are trying to change that with crostini. Hopefully, they'll have some sensible hardware options in the future.

0xEFF• 8 years ago

For external 4K displays is it the same as before with the 13" supporting 2 at 60Hz with the 15" supporting 4 at 60hz?

keyle• 8 years ago

All this power and whizbang stuff doesn't impress me... I got a $4,000 MBP for work and it's really full of itself...

Anyone else dying for a fresh mac book air? That's all I need!

spondyl• 8 years ago

Maybe I'm just not picky enough but as someone running whatever the current Macbook Pro is as my daily work driver, I haven't had any issues with the Esc key not being physical. I'd love to hear issues that users are having since I haven't really been exposed to the discussion around it.

On a side note, I agree the touchbar is useless on its own but BetterTouchTool + some python scripts has made it a neat feature for me. Personally, I use mine to display our on call roster from Pagerduty + the number of open incidents (if any)

Oh, I should mention I do use neovim somewhat lightly and it works alright.

USB C only can be a pain in the butt too

mschuster91• 8 years ago

So... still no USB-A or SD card port, still with the Touch Bar no one needs, even THINNER than before so likely the keyboard is shit, and the touchpad probably as oversized as on the current model. And I don't want to know the battery life of a 6-core CPU with so little space left for an actual battery.

Jeez, Apple.

camelot3000• 8 years ago

Apple really dropped the ball. Wow. They must have been thinking, "Let's pretend XR, VR, AR don't exist and maybe we'll be able to extend our relevance with people who know nothing about computers." Otherwise, I can't even.

CoughlinJ• 8 years ago

It'd be better if the OS wasn't garbage to be honest. Sierra and High Sierra, either through poor design or planned obsolescence has entirely soured my organization to the benefits of the MBP. Between that and the incessantly bad consumer garbage they push out with the OS, it's just not worth it.

67_45• 8 years ago

I used to post rants about how I wanted a laptop that only focused about battery life, crispy graphics and Linux friendliness. Now I find myself wishing I could buy a laptop without CPU vulnerabilities. The hardware market is definitely at it's lowest point ever right now.

cutler• 8 years ago

Apple have surpassed themselves with wallet-gouging markup on SSD and RAM upgrades. £360 for an extra 16GB RAM (£160 retail) and £360 for an extra 500GB SSD (£95 retail). This locking down every component is big business. Nothing like hacking-off your pro customer base.

oglopf• 8 years ago

I really can't stand the keyboard. Been using it the last year and a half and it is definitely causing joint pain. I ended up buying an external keyboard to use with it most the time. Also, I want my escape key back. Not having tactile feedback is annoying and frustrating, especially given how much I'm in vim everyday. Just go back to the old keyboard please, you can even keep the touch bar if you must but I will not buy another until the keyboard is made useable and not just flat for no reason beyond making the computer slightly thinner, which is of no value to me.

lancewiggs• 8 years ago

Apple have improved (and probably fixed) the keyboard and increased maximum RAM top 32GB for the 15-inch. These resolving two of the most common complaints seen here previously. Apple have also improved the display, added Siri, better system security and much faster CPUs. The leather sleeves are nice too - wildly expensive but lovely.

It's sad therefore to read so many complaints here - but I suspect many people have silently purchased one.

hrktb4• 8 years ago

My previous job (80+ devs shop) provided laptops as primary machines, and we were free to choose size and mac or linux.

I knew 3 people who choose 15”, and about 15~20 people choose linux. We were all devs working with a set of VMs.

Getting 32G only on the 15” puts most of us in a corner. The 4x4 matrix becomes two choices only:

- 15” 32G mac - 13” 32G linux

That’s a really tough choice, I wish Apple just gave 32G to the 13”.

HIPisTheAnswer• 8 years ago

x86 has been obsolete since it was born, and putting the silicone under the keyboard today is absurd. The portable workstation is not the machine that should be doing the hard work (builds/tests). They have it wrong almost the whole way, except maybe for a nice screen.

189723954• 8 years ago

Every time Apple releases a new product, these comments are the same. "blah blah, apple sucks, I am totally thinking about switching to the Microsoft <insert latest failed product here> and let me tell you all about it". This year it is the "WSL totally makes development easy on windows now" garbage.

The fact is that the competitors are garbage. Dell makes crappy, low quality computers, windows has the design of a sleezy casino, and programming on windows is still a massive compromise. The same with Android. Samsung s9+, note 8, etc are not even remotely competitive with the iPhone. Android and Windows serve different markets and every attempt to break in the high-end market since the history of time have failed.

Personally, I think that macbook's are kind of old fashioned. When I went into the Apple store a few months ago, the iPad Pro seemed like a much better mobile computer. The fact is that you don't spend all day on a laptop. If you do, then you need to go see a physiotherapist and start your treatment now. Whether the keyboard is perfect or not really isn't that important. Nothing about a laptop is anywhere near perfect. The processor is lower powered, the screen is smaller, the ergonomics are terrible, etc.

It makes much more sense for a lot of these tech companies to start issuing iMacs and macbooks or iMacs and ipad pros. That is what Apple themselves seem to do, and the majority of the people I know who work from home do. You can't even buy a screen as good as the one in the iMac 5k for the same price separately. Text looks much better on a retina screen, you get much more power, more storage, etc.

People say "well you have to sync between work and home". These people must be an extreme minority because how many people work at home one day, work at work the next and keep rotating like that so that syncing becomes an actual problem? Further, you can just ssh into your own machine.

Anyway, that is what I think. Everyone seems to be moving to iMacs instead of laptop + external screen. You get more power, no need to charge as much, a retina screen, and it is all at a very very competitive price.

AstralStorm• 8 years ago

And still no ports, so you get to buy apple approved hub.

josteink2• 8 years ago

None of the pictures shows the “pro” keyboard.

I going to venture a guess why: lack of a real keyboard row for esc + function keys.

LatencyKills• 8 years ago

It's 2018 and we still can't get a decent video card in $3k-$4k+ Apple laptop? The new MBP will still be horrible at delivering a high-ish end gaming experience and I'll continue to be forced to perform all of my GPU-based machine/deep learning work on a separate machine (or eGPU).

Friedduck• 8 years ago

I’m at the point where I still greatly prefer MacOS, but Windows hardware.

Unless things have changed dramatically, my 2017 MBP will be my last when it’s time for a replacement. Hundreds of dollars in add-ons to make it functional and a terrible keyboard are too much to live with.

jason_slack2• 8 years ago

I have a 2015 15-inch MBP, 16gb RAM, 512gb SSD. I dropped it going through TSA and dented in the side. It still works. Case is bent, etc.

Last week I bought a 13-inch MBP, 16gb, 512gb, non-touchbar model.

With the upgrades to the 15-inch MBP and DDR4, True Tone display. I am seriously thinking about returning the new 13-inch and buying a new 15-inch. I waited 10 days for Apple to deliver the 13-inch and if I order today with 32gb RAM they are shipping July 23-25. Still another 10 day wait.

JVIDEL• 8 years ago

Insane prices as always, bravo apple

MacBook Pro with faster performance and new features for pros

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