EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

https://www.macrumors.com/2022/10/04/eu-passes-law-to-switch-iphone-to-usb-c-in-2024/

by popol12 • 4 years ago

636 1190 4 years ago

izacus5• 4 years ago

Bizarrely enough, this is actually a big boost to consider an iPhone for me. Having everything on USB-C is such a convenience that it was my no. 1 reason to stay in the other ecosystem.

allendoerfer• 4 years ago

It's the number one reason, why I am not upgrading and tell everyone who asks me, to not do it either. This law is so good, even its anticipation has environmental benefits.

Krkrmfnfmmd4• 4 years ago

The law will stifle further innovation for cables. Imagine still having USB A because the EU said so.

josteink3• 4 years ago

If the Apple product-designers committee couldn't come up with such a decision, I'm very pleased that the EU instead felt like they could do this.

Signed, happy iPhone owner.

fbn792• 4 years ago

I'm European, I understand the good intentions at the root of such enforcement. But I believe such mandatory enforcements are liberticide, and against consumers in the long run.

josteink3• 4 years ago

Tell me. How many different kind of chargers and connectors did you have before the EU mandated everyone should use micro-usb (or something equally standardized)? And how many do you have now?

Personally I had 1 charger per device I had, each with their own weird connector, and each cable sold at $20+ a pop, and definitely more if you wanted a "data-cable". These days I only have 2: USB for almost everything, and Lighting for the Apple-thingies only.

With a move like this, I can be down to having only 1 type of charger and connector. It'll be great!

neilalexander3• 4 years ago

I have no real preference whatsoever in the Lightning vs USB-C battle but it seems strange to me that the EU's approach to supposedly reducing e-waste is by condemning 10 years of Lightning accessories to becoming e-waste. An iPhone 4 charger from 2012 will still charge an iPhone 14 today. That doesn't seem incredibly wasteful to me.

fbn792• 4 years ago

It was not mandatory. It was just a suggestion with voluntary adoption. I have nothing against standardization. I'm against the "mandatory" fact.

lwheelock• 4 years ago

I don’t understand it. Apple has only changed their connector once since 2007. Where I have untold number of USB devices that are either A, Mini, Micro, or now C.

sbuk4• 4 years ago

I imagine that the caterwauling around the change from 32-pin to Lightning somewhat plays into their decision not to move to USB-C. Obviously the overtly cynical will put it down to purely profiteering...

batiudrami• 4 years ago

Since 2007 the de facto standard for other devices has only changed once too (micro to USB-C). Mini USB has been obsolete since 2007 and USB-A is the other end of the connector and not really comparable (Apple has actually since changed on their devices from type A to type C in that time).

For me Lightning is just another in your list of connectors that I wish would go away and standardise to USB-C.

As someone who is travelling right now, with a two port charger and two iPhones, an iPad, a laptop, a Switch, an Apple Watch and two sets of USB-C headphones between us, one connector would actually be a significant quality of life improvement (though an even better one would be hotels not killing power to the socket when I’m not in the room so I can charge my devices while I’m out!)

mensetmanusman3• 4 years ago

I hope they ban the 90% of sold usb-c looking cables that aren’t actually usb-c compliant.

Someone needs to build a simple device you connect a cable to that stress tests it and shows a green or red light.

moring3• 4 years ago

Did the current cable used by the iPhone have this problem too? If not, isn't this changing it to the worse?

edit to clarify: ... because while Apple might still include a working cable, but if you grab one of the 10 cables out of your cable box, you don't know if it will actually work.

mensetmanusman3• 4 years ago

https://9to5mac.com/2018/08/22/how-to-choose-a-usb-c-cable/a...

It would be funny if this ruling strengthened Apple’s position because no one knows which off-brand cable will destroy their device by not limiting current draw.

Without strong regulations on the usb cables themselves, it almost seems like putting the cart before the horse.

dijit2• 4 years ago

Apple's USB-C cable (called: "USB-C Charge Cable") supports 97w charging and USB 2.0 data transfer speeds.

Apple only has one other USB-C <-> USB-C cable and that's the "Thunderbolt 3 Cable" which supports everything in USB 3.1 Gen 2

hbn2• 4 years ago

No, Lightning was great because if you saw a lightning cable, you could plug it in and know exactly what it's going to do. USB-C has been an absolute fucking mess, half my cables don't charge half my devices with USB-C ports, and you have no idea from looking what a cable is supposed to do. Everything plugs into everything, but it's a completely different story if they'll actually interop how you want.

I can't believe people are celebrating the government getting involved with the design process of the only tech company that actually holds themselves to a standard on design. And by forcing them to use a port where the spec is such a mess.

ReptileMan3• 4 years ago

In EU I think this is no issue. All the cheapo usb pd cables I have bought off the German Amazon recently have been quite good and compliant.

altairprime3• 4 years ago

Amazon voluntarily requires all USB-C cables sold to be USB-IF certified, starting in 2016, after the majority of cables for sale were exposed as being noncompliant safety hazards.

There is no EU law requiring any retailers to care, so far as I know, as long as the unsafe cables don’t have USB-IF logos printed on the connectors.

faller_slive• 4 years ago

They exist but they cost $15,000.

https://www.totalphase.com/products/advanced-cable-tester-v2...

NextHendrix• 4 years ago

This gives me some cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, having a common connector will reduce waste and be much more convenient (eg "Hey have you got an iPhone charger?") and make losing a charger a cheaper mistake. On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices, which could stifle innovation, or be very shortsighted in the typical government-rules-on-tech way (eg "banning encryption").

I don't know what to think.

messe2• 4 years ago

I wouldn’t be too concerned. They did it before to standardise on micro USB, in such a way that didn’t stop manufacturers from moving to USB-C. This is really just an update of that same rule.

skohan9• 4 years ago

How did Apple dodge this with micro-USB?

DoingIsLearning2• 4 years ago

The general principle is wait for the dust to settle and then enforce whatever is the industry majority with an agreed mature tech.

Btw the same thing happened with the EV charging (SAE J1772).

sam_lowry_2• 4 years ago

EV connector is different in EU.

tgv2• 4 years ago

Thank God nobody ever standardized electrical plugs. I'd hate being able to plug my vacuum cleaner and laptop in the same outlet.

skohan9• 4 years ago

I have traveled to parts of the developing world where standardization hasn't happened and it's a huge mess

insickness• 4 years ago

The question of whether standards are beneficial and whether the government should mandate standards are two completely separate questions.

wiredfool4• 4 years ago

There are at least 3 different standards for wall plugs in the Eu.

Krkrmfnfmmd4• 4 years ago

There is no law to force you to standardize your electrical plugs.

dionidium• 4 years ago

This is a great example in that residential electrical systems evolve at a snails pace. There's almost no innovation and most houses are full of dangerous legacy systems because regulation makes updating difficult and expensive.

Also of note: you aren't required by national or state law to use any kind of electrical system in the U.S. The National Electric Code is not a binding document. It's up to individual municipalities to decide whether they want to adopt it (or some other standard, which they're free to do).

blue_light_man6• 4 years ago

You don't even know what else could have happened if there was no standardization. Maybe the industry must have progressed without the need of outlets in the first place.

skohan9• 4 years ago

I am similarly of two minds. As an engineer, I can imagine how legal mandates for technology choices could stifle innovation and make the future of technology worse.

But at the same time, I think there may be a place for mandating interface compatibility.

To give some old-school examples, how differently might industrialization have gone if rail systems weren't mandated to operate under some shared standards? Or where would we be if every country had a handful of competing power grids with different voltages and outlet types?

So I am not sure the cable which plugs into our phones is the correct target for standardization, but in spirit I think it's worthwhile to consider how the public good of interoperability should be weighed against a handful of corporations' interest in building technological moats around themselves and their users.

jmull5• 4 years ago

I can “reassure” you: this is unambiguously a bad idea.

First, market forces already standardized on two main standards.

Second, the interop problem is a $10 cable between wall-wart and device.

So the problem solved is a small one. I think this idea got its momentum from years ago when practically every model of phone had a different charger and wall wart.

Meanwhile, think about what you lose.

Is USB-C really the end-game of charging connectors? It has existing issues with labeling and capabilities confusion. What about mag-safe-style connectors? Does a phone necessarily need a charging connector at all and might there not be advantages to not having one?

As an aside, ewaste will increase in the short term, of course, as people will have to throw out their lighting stuff and buy USB-C stuff. (Don’t worry, it’s not a lot — small problem, remember.)

salmo2• 4 years ago

I think that’s what weirds me out. In cases like rail, it’s necessary for interoperability and prevents anti competitive practices. There’s a clear state interest there.

But swapping a plug doesn’t buy us that. This is evidenced by the fact that no company is forced to use lightning to compete.

Almost everything uses USB-A at the outlet and choose your other end. We’re starting to see USB-C at the outlet, but same thing.

I also don’t see the e-waste argument. I haven’t had a cable outlive a device. My kids go through them every other month. No plug fixes that, it’s almost always where the cable joins the plug. (Except micro-USB, we shall never speak of that again).

My other biggest practical problem is that, despite appearances, USB-C != USB-C, and the off-the-shelf cables are awful, especially for normal humans.

In my dream world, I’d love to see clearly labeled device and cord capabilities, and USB-C all the things, and a reigned in USB-C spec.

I just think that government is a bad place to do it, and don’t see a necessary state interest case for their intervention.

rmccue3• 4 years ago

To give some old-school examples, how differently might industrialization have gone if rail systems weren't mandated to operate under some shared standards?

I'm not sure that analogy holds particularly well. The UK did build rail systems without shared standards, and only standardised on gauge in 1846, which was very late in the industrial revolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Gauge_War - Standards for other things like signalling also came late, and broad gauge was still in use until 1892. (Notably though, this did happen just at the turn of Railway Mania, so affected a lot of the new lines.)

Effectively, the UK let (mainly by omission, not intentionally) the solutions compete and then selected the most broadly used solution to standardise on.

(I'd love to see any scholarly research on this though; I haven't seen a huge degree of it. Obviously things are different outside of the UK, but given it's where (uncoincidentally) both the industrial revolution and railways were born, that's the clear case to look at.)

lloydatkinson• 4 years ago

It will end up with the terrible quality fake usb cables and chargers we have today, thanks for the usb organisation not being stricter. Seems hard to find specific types of USB 3/C cables. In some cases they have damaged the connected devices which should be considered a failure of the U part.

If anything this will increase the value of official apple chargers because at least those will be well designed.

danhor3• 4 years ago

Even if you're buying from Amazon or AliExpress, there have been very few cases over the last few years of them damaging your device compared to the first years of USB-C.

They might still have other issues, but nothing that damages your device.

krageon• 4 years ago

stifle innovation

We have plenty of free market examples of why "innovation" in the connector space almost always spawns lemons and makes everything worse in the meantime.

hackeraccount• 4 years ago

Do we? By the same token what are examples of where innovation in the connector space helped out?

I find laws like this problematic because measuring success or failure is super tricky. How do you know about innovation that hasn't happened? If in 5 years or 10 years we're using USB-C connectors is that great or does it mean there's some better idea that isn't being taken to market? I'm sure there are subject matter experts who might confidently weigh in on that but could they realistically get this law changed? Even if those experts agreed there was a better solution would the majority of the incumbent players in the space want that solution?

Laws like this create a situation where opposition depends upon people missing things they've never had and wanting things that they can't conceive of.

Kbelicius3• 4 years ago

On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices, which could stifle innovation, or be very shortsighted in the typical government-rules-on-tech way (eg "banning encryption").

How can free sharing of ideas stifle innovation?

CharlieDigital• 4 years ago

Imagine if every house in the US has different types of outlet shapes and sizes and voltages instead of our standard 120v, 15A 20A 3 prong outlets.

(Minus specialized sockets like 240v, 30A, etc.)

It would be ridiculous to have adapters and specialized plugs for everything for such a basic purpose.

thatfrenchguy2• 4 years ago

Electricity in the US is such a mess though, it's so easy to reach the limit of a 120V/15A circuit.

wisnoskij• 4 years ago

Forcing everyone to change cables creates waste. Apple is teh onyl company that might not have already been using USBC by the time this went into effect, and now all their customers that already had lightning cables and accessories will have to throw them out of get adapters. Not to mention that by then we will probably already be talking about USB-D or whatever is coming next. Maybe the USB counsel can just conglomerate everything under the usbc name so that companies can just use whatever they want. "Micro usbc, its just micro usb but with a new name!". Maybe that is why they have been renaming all their skews every 6 months.

I wonder if they will just be able to ship iphones with lightning cables and a usbc adapter and a usbc to lightning port adapter so the customers can just throw out the adapters and use the lightning cables.

matthew-wegner• 4 years ago

Plenty of Apple products already use USB-C. Apple products aside, I'm sure the average household has USB-C cables by now

Besides, existing phones are obviously going to stay Lightning. Cables aren't going to be thrown out any earlier than the phones themselves

shpx• 4 years ago

And Lightning is physically a better connector.

timbit4210• 4 years ago

A better connector would be round.

clouddrover2• 4 years ago

On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices

Depends on the device.

Standards for EV fast charging are a very good thing. North America has two different plugs and protocols for DC fast charging (three if you count CHAdeMO) and it's a mess. The EU has standardized on CCS Type 2 Combo so any brand of CCS charging car can charge on any brand of CCS charging network. That's good common sense and it benefits everyone.

Incompatible charging infrastructure doesn't benefit any EV owner. It's a drag on the EV market. Closed networks like Tesla's and Rivian's are continuing to be part of the problem.

Tesla is (very) slowly changing in North America:

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharg...

Rivian still hasn't got the memo. Rivian's chargers are at least CCS but because they're brand exclusive they don't see much use:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbvW0nK38j8

Those chargers could be earning more revenue right now instead of sitting idle. All they have to do is unlock the software.

kwhitefoot• 4 years ago

Closed networks like Tesla's and Rivian's are continuing to be part of the problem.

All new Tesla stations in Europe use CCS and most of the older stations have been retrofitted with CCS connectors in addition to Type 2.

I have an adaptor for my 2017 Model S that allows it to use CCS instead of Type 2 and newer cars can be converted so that CCS connectors can be used without adaptors. All new EVs in Europe already use CCS and Tesla are slowly opening up their network to other brands of car.

So how is Tesla part of the problem?

ChrisRR3• 4 years ago

Does no-one remember how there were like 50 different phone connectors in the early 2000s?

This is why we all (apart from Apple) settled on one standard

Lutzb• 4 years ago

This so much. This era was defined by vendor lock-in. Getting e.g. a dedicated car phone audio setup was tough decision, since you could not just change the phone.

I still have a box of old phones with custom chargers, headsets and data cables. The Nokia barrel plug (different sizes), the Siemens comb style connector, the Ericsson break away type connector, the Motorola two prong, the Bosch connector and some really weird LG/NEC/SAGEM plugs.

Good riddance.

ralfd3• 4 years ago

Yes, exactly: The market could innovate and develop better connectors. For example Apples Lightning, which is older (and smaller/more robust) than USB-C. Imagine instead the EU mandating micro USB and how we would be forced till the end of times to have a 50% chance to plugging it in wrong.

Is USB-C the best connector or form factor we could ever do?

kennend32• 4 years ago

On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices, which could stifle innovation, or be very shortsighted in the typical government-rules-on-tech way

You seem unaware that the government regulate a LOT of things and while this has stiffed some innovation, the cost is probably worth it.

When was the last time a house burned down due to electrical issues? In the past, prior to standards this was rather common.

If you want a general understanding of what things were like prior to "regulation".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring

Now ask how you would plug an appliance into this mess...

that_guy_iain2• 4 years ago

This is an awesome move in my opinion. While it's pretty much defactor making it universal and legally required will be with the cutter and waste that is created by often requiring a special charger or a different charge for a device.

Y-bar4• 4 years ago

Yes, a big finally! I love my Apple device (personal iPhone 12 mini, work iPhone 8, Apple TV 4K with new remote, iPad Air, ...) but the lightning connection should obviously have been retired a few years ago.

oneplane3• 4 years ago

should obviously have been

Except that it isn't obvious. You're essentially at the end of an extremely long and complicated supply chain for a multi-million device pipeline. You have no idea what a change, any change, involves. And because you don't know this (assuming you're not a supply chain engineer of design for manufacture specialist) you cannot state that it is obvious either.

What is obvious is that some people would have liked it sooner, and what is also obvious is that the manufacturer (Apple) has been moving in that direction for years (on other lower-volume lower-risk devices).

TradingPlaces3• 4 years ago

How about all the waste when over a billion iPhone users throw out Lightning accessories?

tapoxi2• 4 years ago

That'll only happen once, compared to the impact of eternally having two separate charging ecosystems.

Drakim3• 4 years ago

If we stay trapped in a local maximum we can never ever improve our situation because any improvement will realistically come at some cost.

Can't replace old diesel trucks with green fuel trucks because the act of replacing them causes some pollution.

that_guy_iain2• 4 years ago

Apple will do what they did with micro usb chargers. Bring out an dongle.

thefz5• 4 years ago

How about not stubbornly staying with lightning when Apple had the option to switch to usb-c? They did that with malicious compliance to upsell their damn adapter.

throw8274747372• 4 years ago

Insignificant vs forever..

thefz5• 4 years ago

ahem de facto, it's latin.

warinukraine• 4 years ago

Haha yeah English speaking people also write "per say" instead of "per se", like per say makes any sense.

Now defactor I'd never seen before.

tomjen3• 4 years ago

Not really. I will have to replace my AirPods, iPad and touchpad and iPhone for this to be the case.

I assume it will take ten years or so.

Really I would just love a small usbc female to lighting male. Would solve all my cable problems basically.

_ZeD_• 4 years ago

FUCK YEAH!!!

captainmuon• 4 years ago

Good decision, but bizarrely only after USB-C was established on almost every phone, except iPhones.

I hope this has an expiration date, or they have a provision for easily updating the law when somebody develops a better standard. Otherwise this could mean we would be stuck with USB-C forever.

(As a developer, writing "USB-C" in a law this seems to me like hardcoding a magic string in source code. Often, it is better to have your data separate from code. Maybe it would make more sense if the law would defer to some standards body, that could update the technical decision more easily.)

neilalexander3• 4 years ago

As a developer, writing "USB-C" in a law this seems to me like hardcoding a magic string in source code

Between various generations of Qualcomm Quick Charge and USB PD at various wattages for charging alone, and then USB 2.0, 3.0, 3.1, 3.2 Gen 1, 3.2 Gen 2, 3.2 Gen 2 2x2, Thunderbolt 2, Thunderbolt 3 and Thunderbolt 4 for data, it seems like they have plenty of room for future movement/fragmentation.

drewm1980• 4 years ago

I switched to wireless charging pads because USB connectors keep failing on me. Now the USB connectors on my wireless charging pads are dying!

Ballas• 4 years ago

There seems to be more than one common factor here...

billpg2• 4 years ago

Around five years or so ago, I had lots of gadgets, all using Micro-USB. Life was good, I had purchased a job lot of cables and made sure every location on my house, car and desk at work had more than enough cables so any gadget would be ready to be charged up.

Then I bought a new phone. I had a USB-C port. Suddenly, I couldn't charge it up just anywhere. If that phone had a Micro-USB version, I'd have chosen that one in a heartbeat.

Yes, USB-C is nice. Better than Micro-USB. So good that it compensates for the hassle? No.

causi• 4 years ago

Well, better in most ways. It's worse in a couple of minor ones. It's larger, so particularly tiny devices still come with microUSB charge ports. It also gets smooshed flat if you happen to step on it, which is a problem I had my first few months with a type-C phone.

skohan9• 4 years ago

I would argue it is good enough it compensates for the hassle.

I think USB-C is one of the first "good enough" connectors we have had for the arbitrary use-case. It's reversible. It's suitable for high-power and high-bandwidth use-cases. It's robust. micro-USB works ok for charging small devices, but would it really make sense to replace USB-A with it for plugging peripherals into your PC for example?

billpg2• 4 years ago

Fair point, but my lived experience of USB-C is that several of my Micro-USB cables dotted around now have little converter heads added. My tablets and battery packs (and other gizmos) still need the Micro-USB port so I can't just replace the cables.

Yes, being able to plug in the connector both ways around is nice, but it wasn't that inconvenient not to be able to do that, especially when put against the inconvenience of needing these extra heads.

I can certainly imagine someone having similar frustrations when Mini-USB gave way to Micro-USB. I can only hope that when USB-D connectors come around, there's more than only small incremental improvements to get me on board.

mdrzn• 4 years ago

LET'S GO EU!

These headlines make me proud. Let's reach a global standard for charging stuff.

I wish everything that had to be charged sometimes had a USB-C plug. But also I hope that the USB standard gets less messy in the future.

acadapter• 4 years ago

What if a device doesn't need all the extra pins in the USB-C connector? What if it only uses VBUS/D+/D-/GND?

counttheforks3• 4 years ago

Then you don't wire them up

danhor3• 4 years ago

There are cheaper USB-C connectors available with fewer pins for that purpose

ChrisRR3• 4 years ago

Presumably the same as when a device doesn't need all of the lightning pins

moolcool2• 4 years ago

Nothing happens-- most connecters on most devices have unused pins.

coffeeblack5• 4 years ago

There is no reason for USB to improve any further, because now it has to be used by law.

Amazing that people still don’t get it.

Kuinox2• 4 years ago

Wait you think they somehow tried to compete with apple ?

That's not how USB works.

necovek3• 4 years ago

I am hoping for my next car to be chargeable through a USB-C port too! /s

I love the fact that there is a standardized port, and I can get devices of any type to charge with a single powerful charger. But connector and cables are wonky at best if you want to have a single cable for everything too (look up prices, thickness and lengths of USB-C PD 100W, alt-DP 1.4 capable, USB 3+ speeds cables, and then watch them break in a few months of "regular" use like in a car charger).

But I want a better, more robust standard than USB-C! Can that happen with the law in place? I don't know, but that scares me.

pwpw2• 4 years ago

I am hoping for my next car to be chargeable through a USB-C port too! /s

I’m aware of your sarcasm, but it did bother me that my Tesla used a proprietary port that made it more difficult to use other charging locations, such as the charger next to my apartment. Electric vehicle charging ports need standardization as well.

Perhaps having these laws standardizing ports will set the groundwork for a more robust standard in the future. I don’t think there’s ever going to be a perfect solution since there are so many differing opinions, but I do believe this is a good start.

tomonl• 4 years ago

Luckily this law is not just for phones!

Regardless of their manufacturer, all new mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones and headsets, handheld videogame consoles and portable speakers, e-readers, keyboards, mice, portable navigation systems, earbuds and laptops that are rechargeable via a wired cable, operating with a power delivery of up to 100 Watts, will have to be equipped with a USB Type-C port.

bombcar• 4 years ago

Introducing the iPhone 15 EU edition, now with 101 watt charging via lightning.

kypro3• 4 years ago

I like USB-C and would even be in favour of the iPhone using USB-C, but I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than consumer electronics companies and the consumers themselves.

I do kind of get it though. It's probably better for a whole host of reasons if electronics all used the same cords, but I guess you could make that argument for a lot of things. There would be benefits if there was only one mobile operating system or if all mobiles used the same interchangeable batteries, for example.

When a standard makes sense companies will generally adopt it naturally. The fact so many manufacturers use USB-C today just proves that this probably doesn't need to be enforced. I suppose it's just strange to me this would even need to be a law or that there are people paid to pass laws like this.

Eddy_Viscosity22• 4 years ago

Electronics companies decide what's best for them. Competition in the smart phone market is done, so consumers no longer have a say. These kinds of interoperability standards are great and would love to see more of them internationally.

kypro3• 4 years ago

Consumers still don't have a say. Now instead of companies choosing what hardware & features are best for their product, and you then choosing products based on your preferences, EU regulators are now forcing companies (and therefore you) to use whatever they think is best.

I think in the case of USB-C it's not too bad just because USB-C is widely agreed to be a good connector that's already widely adopted, but there have been plenty of bad connectors in the past which in theory the EU could now be deciding consumer electronics companies are forced to use.

This also assumes USB-C is always the best option which I doubt. I'm sure there are products which given the application, size or price point might suite a different cable better. Technology also moves on and connectors change for a reason. Now we're going to be stuck with outdated hardware until EU regulators update laws. At which companies and you as the consumer will be forced to adopt that new connector regardless of your preferences.

have_faith• 4 years ago

I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than consumer electronics companies and the consumers themselves

What proportion of phone consumers have an informed opinion on charging technology? Why would the electronics companies work in a way that benefits everyone/the environment instead of themselves.

I guess you could make that argument for a lot of things

We do, we have standards for a ridiculous amount of things no one ever thinks about.

There would be benefits if there was only one mobile operating system or if all mobiles used the same interchangeable batterie

Standardising the operating system would create a monopoly and have no obvious society wide benefits. Whereas cables can be made by anyone competent. It would be more prudent to mandate user replacable batteries before thinking about if such a specific battery standard could feasibly work. Something you can probably make a good argument for.

lotsofpulp3• 4 years ago

Whereas cables can be made by anyone competent.

Like the myriad businesses already making lightning cables?

rrwo3• 4 years ago

I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than consumer electronics companies and the consumers themselves

This isn't something created by faceless bureaucrats behind closed doors.

The "regulators" are the EU Parliament, who are elected by residents in the various countries. The issue has been talked about for a few years, and was voted on 603 to 13, that's over 96% (including abstentions).

tephra2• 4 years ago

More than a few years, this particular legislation yes but it really started in 2009 where they wanted to mandate micro-usb.

fy204• 4 years ago

Are you old enough to remember the early 2000s when every phone and portable media player had it's own charger, which often wasn't even transferable between devices by the same manufacturer? It led to lots of old chargers when devices were replaced, which were useless for anything else (I remember having bags of cables and chargers). And if you wanted a second charger for whatever reason (this was before you needed to charge your device every 3 hours), you needed to find the specific charger for your device. If it was a few years old, it might not even be possible to purchase one.

Then almost by magic everyone switched to micro USB. You could charge different devices from different manufacturers with the same cable. This wasn't some feat of magic, it was because the European Commission worked to bring manufacturers to an agreement on a common charging standard.

Well, everyone except Apple, who did actually sign the agreement. They just decided to bundle a dongle to be compliant.

Mini-USB was introduced in 2000, so manufactures had plenty of time to choose a common interface themselves, but decided not to.

Even amongst Apple's own devices it is a mess. To charge an Apple Pencil with an iPad Pro you need not one, but two adapters.

KerrickStaley• 4 years ago

Micro-USB is not the same as Mini-USB. Mini-USB was introduced in 2000; Micro-USB was introduced in 2007.

izacus5• 4 years ago

In most cases, yes, people writing these comments are too young to remember era before Apple brought shining and light to their existence.

givinguflac• 4 years ago

| Even amongst Apple's own devices it is a mess. To charge an Apple Pencil with an iPad Pro you need not one, but two adapters.

I’m curious what you’re referring to. I charge my Apple Pencil while connected to my iPad, and my iPad chargers via usb c. No adapters for me?

inkyoto• 4 years ago

Are you old enough to remember the early 2000s when every […]

One does not have to be that old enough.

Look no further than personal care and small home appliances (electric shavers – yes, Braun, I am looking at you; electric toothbrushes – and you, too, Philips! As well as household and kitchen appliances) the vast majority of which still come with incompatible proprietary chargers that are so hard, expensive or inconvenient (usually all of the above) to procure to replace that the entire gadget oftentimes gets disposed of because of the failed charger.

Governments ought to crack down on those ones as well, and crack down real, real hard.

danielfoster2• 4 years ago

I agree. What happens if companies want to make something better or technology improves? The way the legislation is written, will help consumers in the short-term but could stifle innovation in the long-term. Imagine if the EU had mandated DC power ports or CD-ROM drives two decades ago.

It took this long for the EU to pass common standard legislation after talking about it for years. I can't imagine they will be any faster in updating it if USB-C becomes outdated.

kaba04• 4 years ago

How fast can charging ports evolve even in theory, given that they have to be somewhat backwards compatible to begin with? I think the law can keep up with all these iterations of lightning cables apple invented during its free reign over their port.

kaba04• 4 years ago

The very Adam Smith even have said that capitalism only work in well-defined markets. I don’t see how a more-or-less democratically elected entity would have a negative effect on competition by upholding some consumer-centric rules.

dkjaudyeqooe3• 4 years ago

I really dislike the idea that EU regulators would know what's better for consumers than consumer electronics companies and the consumers themselves.

It's not that, it's that companies know what's good for them and consumers are a secondary consideration, if that.

Consider EU mobile phone roaming regulation: it's an unalloyed good. We've gone from expensive and inconvenient roaming charges and roaming add-ons to free roaming at almost no increase in prices. There was initially some increase in very low priced plans yet I have a 2.65 euro a month 1GB data only plan (with full roaming) which is a blindingly good deal.

diebeforei485• 4 years ago

Lightning is showing its age with how slow it is.

USB 4 on iPhones, and ideally Thunderbolt on the Pro iPhones that shoot large videos, would be amazing.

Vosporos• 4 years ago

wooooooo finally some good news!!

atemerev• 4 years ago

One standard! One socket! One na.. wait oh shi

nudgeee2• 4 years ago

Lightning had a good 10-year run. Let’s not forget that it was released a full 2 years before USB-C, and one of the first to being reversible connectors to the masses.

Also, here is the final report commissioned by the EU: “Impact Assessment Study to Assess Unbundling of Chargers (July 2021)” [0].

[0] https://op.europa.eu/o/opportal-service/download-handler?ide...

_trackno54• 4 years ago

Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me.

I don't see any win besides a minor convenience. A lightning cable weighs almost nothing and it's not a big deal to have one around.

As to lightning port limitations, I question whether usb-c will give average iPhone users any other advantage other than charging their phone. What are people gonna do with it other than charge their phones or transfer files?

Feels like there's nothing to celebrate here. Just the EU using its influence to exert control over things that don't matter at all.

webmobdev5• 4 years ago

Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me.

It's because consumers have rights too. Standardising something actually fosters competition (healthy capitalism), increases profit (as standardising something often leads to lower manufacturing costs) while reducing costs for consumers (due to increased competition). It also reduces waste which is good for the environment.

I don't see any win besides a minor convenience.

You will, when you have to buy another USB-C cable for your iDevice. I recently had to, for an iPad Air, and I was able to buy a good quality replacement USB-C cable (of similar spec) from Samsung for Rs. 750 (around $10) rather than paying Apple an exorbitant Rs. 2000 (around $20+). (Past experience with Apple cables has taught me that the higher price charged by Apple is no guarantee of better quality, and other non-Apple cables from reputed companies are often cheaper, more durable and last longer than Apple's).

danielheath• 4 years ago

This I really don't get. It reads as though you're saying that non-apple cables are cheaper and better, and also that mandating USB-C is valuable because it means you don't have to buy cables from apple.

ramphastidae• 4 years ago

What exactly is your USB-C cable example meant to illustrate? You were successfully able to buy a cheaper cable without any laws being passed. Seems like things are working fine as-is.

vladvasiliu7• 4 years ago

You can already buy non-Apple branded lightning cables.

Apart from the cable that came in my iPhone 7's box many years ago (which still works perfectly and, excluding a little dirt, looks like new), all my other lightning cables are off-brand ones that cost much less than $20 apiece. More like 10.

Some of them (Aukey brand) developed a wonky connection after a while, or only work on one side. The others (Amazon Basics) still work perfectly, after spending uncountable hours in the sun and rain powering my phone on my motorbike's handlebars.

All this without any kind of law (I'm in the EU).

jld89• 4 years ago

A LOT of less waste maybe ?

It is very inconvenient and a hassle to have 5 different cables for 5 different devices. It is a waste of space, materials... The economic gains by volume continent wide should not be underestimated.

kypro3• 4 years ago

Less waste after iPhone users all have to throw away their cables and buy new ones, presumably?

_trackno54• 4 years ago

Do you actually have data on that though? I see that kind of argument get thrown around but it is never substantiated.

How will usbc lead to less waste?

If you wanna make that argument, wouldn’t it be better to force companies to opt you out of getting chargers and cables unless you explicitly ask for them when you make the purchase?

norman7842• 4 years ago

The plug will be universal with usb-c, but not the cable specs, I read someone of someone that have a usb-c-jack dongle that came with the phone and worked, then when it broke he bought a new one but it didn't work, the dongle itself was not using a standard, also I read a lot that fast charging is kinda property with each manufacturer, so a cable that can fast charge one device might not be able to fast charge another, and the blame is on USB itself, it's like HDMI, everything is optional, so you can't be sure if you bought the correct usb-c cable.

At least with lightning you know what you are buying, and maybe the overpriced cables that Apple sells will work better than the most cheap ones, which brand give you the warranties for the cable specs? does belkin and co sell also cables?

logicalmonster2• 4 years ago

This law might have actually encouraged more waste than would have otherwise existed.

Cables (generally) don't go bad in a year or two and can last for quite a few years. Most long-term iPhone users probably have at least a few spare cables throughout their desk, house, car that they've bought over time that they'd now have no substitutes for and would need to replace.

You might have dictated a situation where people now have to throw away a pile of perfectly usable cables/accessories and buy a bunch of new ones. While well intentioned, this law might have otherwise achieved the opposite of what it set out to do.

PS: Whether this law exists or not, I'd have bet on Apple working to go fully wireless soon and this might just accelerate that effort.

CubsFan10605• 4 years ago

I will basically immediately throw away about a dozen cables and need to buy new ones. I'm unclear on how I'm gaining in this.

meibo2• 4 years ago

I will definitely switch to iPhone as soon as they come with USB-C. It feels like they're just not doing it out of spite - I already have 20 USB-C chargers and power banks for all of my hardware. If you've been in the Apple ecosystem for years, no, it probably won't matter to you and will probably annoy you more than what it's worth because you now need separate cables to charge your mouse and your phone.

Bud6• 4 years ago

Out of spite? What about it feeling out of spite to make this change for the tens of millions of users who have one or two or four sets of AirPods, and several wireless Apple keyboards and mice and trackpads, and various other gear, all of which uses Lightning?

Some people need to remember that it's not all about them.

And your USB-C chargers and power banks were and are perfectly capable of charging Lightning devices.

counttheforks3• 4 years ago

Because apple refuses to play ball otherwise. Capitalism has failed and is now producing tonnes of unnecessary e-waste.

gizmo• 4 years ago

A 4 year old iPhone still works perfectly, but a $200 Android will find its way to a landfill way sooner. As a rule of thumb, appliances that last are better for the environment than cheap products. Apple is good at make devices that last.

Nowadays all laptops can charge over usb-c (including Apple laptops, mind you!). Did anybody have to force Apple to do this? No, because charging technology improved so much that what used to be a big brick is now a pocketable GAN charger. Even the new magsafe laptops still support usb-c charging. And iPhones support wireless qi charging as well as Apple's proprietary magnet based wireless charging solution. Thanks to cheaper chips all devices can now negotiate how much power they need from the power brick. That's a big win, and this just wasn't possible a decade ago.

We're in the final stretch of a 20 year trend towards universal chargers, and this EU mandate is totally unnecessary.

Thaxll• 4 years ago

Do you know how many USB cable / charger people have on average?

_trackno54• 4 years ago

I don’t. Can you send me the research data where you learned about that?

EugeneOZ• 4 years ago

Data transfer speed is an important reason. iPhone 14 Pro can create huge videos and photos, and transferring them using Lightning is too slow.

mimsee• 4 years ago

Did the law mandate USB 3 or just the USB-C connector? You can still have USB-C connector with USB2 data rates.

_trackno54• 4 years ago

Sure, but how many people actually use that?

For dedicated professionals I can see it making sense and nothing should prevent Apple from offering new iPhone Pros with usbc.

But that’s not useful for an average person

Bud6• 4 years ago

This isn't an important reason. There's no technical reason that Lightning could not have been updated to support higher speeds, and there's also nothing in this legislation that forces USB-C to magically use a high data rate.

Hamcha• 4 years ago

Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me.

It's not, we're glad SOMEONE is forcing them to take this direction, but it's really sad (and potentially damaging) it had to come to this.

As to lightning port limitations, I question whether usb-c will give average iPhone users any other advantage other than charging their phone. What are people gonna do with it other than charge their phones or transfer files?

Lightning itself is also used for audio (analog audio dongle) and video. The one benefit USB-C could bring to the table is higher transfer speed since Lightning is stuck on USB2 speeds, USB-C doesn't imply USB 3 but they might as well try.

vladvasiliu7• 4 years ago

Is the USB2 speed a limitation of the Lightning connector, or is it that Apple just doesn't care to improve this?

Because if it's the latter, as you say, there's no guarantee we'll see improved speeds because of the port change.

donatj8• 4 years ago

Transfer speed seems like a non-issue. Wi-Fi 6 is faster than the the internal SSDs read speed. There's no reason to even plug it in for data.

dubya2• 4 years ago

Better transfer speed would be a benefit to USB-C. It comes up using an iPhone as a camera when wifi is congested or just not available, e.g. a college campus with device registration required. Dongles for phone to HDMI could work without needing compression as well.

hajile• 4 years ago

I hope this moves them to add USB-4/thunderbolt along with adding support for an ipad-style desktop when connected to an external monitor.

durnygbur• 4 years ago

Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me.

Because the only balance the capitalism and free market introduce, is high balance on oligarchs' bank accounts.

mschuster917• 4 years ago

I don't see any win besides a minor convenience. A lightning cable weighs almost nothing and it's not a big deal to have one around.

The standardization is good for a lot of purposes:

- cutting down on the number of cables and especially chargers. Seriously, it's amazing to have one single Anker 65W power supply and a single cable on vacation and it can charge everything - tablet, work phone, laptop, power bank, drones, Nintendo Switch. I 'member the dark times where each of these devices had their own cable and for some even own charger.

- car and in-flight entertainment systems can now be relatively secure that USB-C is here to stay and be used for connectivity, which means less effort for this kind of appliance

- if a cable gets lost or damaged, spare cables are cheap and plentiful, and they will also be available in a few years of time

- devices can now be shipped without a charger and cable, which reduces package size and weight (and thus shipping efficiency, as more packages fit into a single container) and as almost everyone has chargers and cables, there is no need to produce as many chargers and cables before, which reduces resource consumption and eventually waste

- when devices break down, chargers still can live on. Even a plain old 5W USB charger is enough to charge an e-cigarette.

- interoperability between devices gets increased. No more micro-USB-to-micro-USB or whatever rare cables to interface, say, a DSLR camera with a phone to transfer photos, a plain USB-C cable is sufficient.

Feels like there's nothing to celebrate here. Just the EU using its influence to exert control over things that don't matter at all.

Well... Apple refused for years to implement USB-C on the iPhone on their own, while the rest of the market converged first on micro-USB and nowadays on USB-C. The regulation was only established to force the hands of the largest player, which didn't like USB-C because it would destroy its lucrative MFi licensing - basically, rent seeking by preventing competition with a closed solution instead of an open standard.

If there is one thing that drives EU legislation ideas, it is the convergence towards open and common, market-wide standards. This reduces the barriers to entry for small players and leads to more innovation as a result. Additionally, since the 500M citizens of the EU are a market bloc that no manufacturer can afford to ignore and for most things except automotive it isn't worth to set up different supply chains, our legislation can improve the lives of everyone on this planet - just take the RoHS directive, which led to lead solder being phased out worldwide and less lead ending up in the environment.

rrwo3• 4 years ago

If there is one thing that drives EU legislation ideas, it is the convergence towards open and common, market-wide standards. This reduces the barriers to entry for small players and leads to more innovation as a result.

Too many people don't understand that trade agreements are about common standards and accountability.

There is a lot of noise about EU regulations made by people who are stuck in 18th century mindsets about trade and who fancy themselves as "free traders".

inferiorhuman• 4 years ago

  and especially chargers

Eh? The iPhone charges over a USB-Lightning cable. There are USB-C and USB-A versions of the cable available. The charger was never the issue. In fact Apple stopped including (USB) chargers with the iPhone a while back.

ericmay3• 4 years ago

I think if you're going to accuse Apple of rent seeking here you also pretty much have to accuse anyone who develops their own standard or plugin or similar of rent seeking as well.

When will the EU ban HDMI connections to monitors or force Apple to remove them from MacBooks? Why are dSLR cameras allowed to continue to use micro USB and SD cards when they could just use USB-C so we don't have to buy dongles and adapters?

The argument that Apple only provides one physical port (they also provide Magsafe and allow other wireless charging options) isn't sufficient with respect to your discussion point about market-wide standards. This really looks to me like the EU is just saying "we don't like lightning chargers and since nobody is going to defend it except Apple we'll ban it" while they also let plenty of other "standards" run amok in the market.

FWIW I much prefer USB-C and I want my next iPhone to include it (along with any other devices), but I really struggle with the logic of the decision to force it here.

matwood5• 4 years ago

- cutting down on the number of cables and especially chargers. Seriously, it's amazing to have one single Anker 65W power supply and a single cable on vacation and it can charge everything - tablet, work phone, laptop, power bank, drones, Nintendo Switch. I 'member the dark times where each of these devices had their own cable and for some even own charger.

I have this now, except with 1 extra cable (which happens to charge my iPhone and AirPods).

- if a cable gets lost or damaged, spare cables are cheap and plentiful, and they will also be available in a few years of time

Walk into any store or gas station today and you'll find all sorts of cable solutions for lightning. I was looking for a cable on vacation last year and had a harder time finding a usb-c to usb-c power cable. Everywhere had lightning though.

- when devices break down, chargers still can live on.

Again, all my chargers have been usb-c for awhile.

Apple was clearly headed towards usb-c anyway, so I doubt this law changes much in their plans. But, a lot of the benefits were already there. Apple will need to include a lightning to usb-c dongle for a period of time as accessories shift over.

pb75• 4 years ago

If there is one thing that drives EU legislation ideas, it is the convergence towards open and common, market-wide standards. This reduces the barriers to entry for small players and leads to more innovation as a result.

Can you provide some examples of innovation that the EU has made in this industry in the last 20 years?

dom96• 4 years ago

What are people gonna do with it other than charge their phones or transfer files?

It would at least save me from carrying one power brick + usb cable. Steam Deck (USB C), Switch (USB C), MacBook Pro (USB C) and iPhone is the only odd one out. This does make a significant difference to what I can take with me on holiday.

Bud6• 4 years ago

That's just you, of course. For hundreds of millions of others, this cuts the other way: over a decade's worth of Lightning accessories and cables and docks are out there.

Which is why the EU is just being dumb, here. They think they are accomplishing some amazing user-friendly enviro-friendly feat, but all they are really doing is making a lot of Lightning gear out there less useful.

And all this to switch to a port that is substantially larger, clunkier, and has no real advantages for iPhone users. Which is why Apple hasn't bothered changing up til now. That, plus Apple actually values what its customers REALLY need and what REALLY ACTUALLY benefits them.

jaywalk• 4 years ago

Ignoring the fact that USB-C to Lightning cables exist, how in the world does a little power brick and cable make a "significant difference" to what you can take with you?

norman7842• 4 years ago

Can you tell me which standard does work with the switch? I have a few usb-c cables but only a few can charge it, while I can charge my iPad with every cable that I own, it a bit sad that ubs-c is a lie, I'd hope that at least a few things were not optional with usb-c standard, and also that it didn't have too much optional stuff that makes harder and harder to buy a cable, it the same with HDMI, that's why display port feels superior IMHO, less optional features.

matwood5• 4 years ago

It seems many are confused about what the iPhone Pro comes with today - a usb-c to lightning cable. So right now you only need to carry a single power brick and 2 cables. So after this law you can carry a single cable. A big win...I guess.

moolcool2• 4 years ago

Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me.

Personally, I am happy to see that some governments still care about consumer protection.

Bud6• 4 years ago

This doesn't "protect" any consumers from anything.

acheron2• 4 years ago

Protecting me from using my existing cables? Gee, thanks.

fullstop6• 4 years ago

In 10 years, when we've moved from USB-C to something else, iPhones in EU could still be stuck on USB-C because they are forced by law.

In terms of progression, my phones since 2004 have gone:

proprietary flip phone stuff, 30-pin iPhone, micro usb, usb-c, usb-c.

Time will tell if USB-C sticks around, I suppose.

staringback3• 4 years ago

Wow I Can't Believe My Android Phone Still Uses Micro-USB Since That Was Forced By Law!!!

Please think about what you're saying for a moment

blululu• 4 years ago

When the law enforces a standard it is very likely to stick around even if better alternatives exist.

manuelabeledo7• 4 years ago

Apple is part of the USB-IF. They also have pushed USB standards to consumers since the iMac. Hell, Apple participates of every single industrial forum they can benefit from.

Apple has moved on to USB-C for almost every other product they have. They know Lightning is old and insufficient, even for their iPad Air.

The only reason why Apple keeps Lightning around is for phones and some portable accessories, and the revenue from those, and their certifications, is not something they are willing to dismiss. Technically speaking, if you want something as simple as a cable, you have to go through Apple and their MFI program.

So here we are, with Apple holding the keys to every Lightning accessory, and also keeping a degree of control of USB-C.

If anything, the EU is trying to keep Apple honest.

misnome• 4 years ago

The only reason why Apple keeps Lightning around is for phones and some portable accessories, and the revenue from those, and their certifications, is not something they are willing to dismiss. Technically speaking, if you want something as simple as a cable, you have to go through Apple and their MFI program.

The other way of viewing this is that by not switching (yet) they haven't created instant e-waste out of every cable and accessory manufactured in the past decade. USB-C didn't exist when they released the lightning cable, and they have clearly been migrating every other product over the past several years.

Seriously, you don't need to invent a conspiracy for every single move Apple makes.

burlesona2• 4 years ago

This is not the reason. The reason is, the last time they changed ports (from 30pin to lightning) it created huge blowback from consumers who had lots of 30pin accessories that were no longer compatible, and even though lightning is FAR better people don’t like switching.

USB-C is not much different than lightning for charging / connecting a phone, so the blowback from consumers will be huge when all their accessories are no longer compatible with the next phone.

shawnz2• 4 years ago

Micro-USB was similarly enforced by law (but adapters were permitted with that regulation, thus allowing Apple to continue using proprietary ports) and that legislation had a clear and obvious positive impact for smartphone users. Don't you recall the days when every single manufacturer had a terrible proprietary connector? I think that enforcement was one of the best examples of a regulatory win in the technology sector in recent times. This is simply an attempt to strengthen that regulation and update it to a modern standard.

pif3• 4 years ago

the EU using its influence to exert control over things that don't matter at all.

If it doesn't matter at all, why is Apple still stubbornly refusing to adapt?

timbit4210• 4 years ago

Whatever the reason is, it's not for the environment.

pif3• 4 years ago

Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me.

I'm sorry that we need a law to instil some common sense into some managers' thick skulls. But I'm happy that EU is showing that in, a sane democracy, no huge corporation can force its will on the people.

onion2k• 4 years ago

Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me.

Having unified, standard cables and power bricks means more reuse, which reduces waste and cost. It means someone switching from Android to iPhone or vice versa doesn't need to replicate all their cabling. It means users can buy a third party cable without paying Apple for a licence or a patent. These are all good things.

woliveirajr• 4 years ago

Imagine a World where your appliances just work in some sockets and not in others. Where the tires of your car can just be bought from one supplier because it was limited by the car manufacturer. Your toaster just accepts some kind of bread. Your pencil can't be sharpned except with one specific equipament. Your mechanical pencil can use just one kind of pencil lead because it has some specific size.

And now imagine a step further, where all cars, mechanical pencils, toasters, wall sockets... everything is disposable because some small detail or component has just one supplier.

Imagine how much you'll spend to have things, and how much you'll have to throw away when any small thing of it gets broken.

enriquec4• 4 years ago

and literally none of that has happened with no mandates. What a dumb argument. Now the government (that creates no value) now gets credit for "preventing" fictional "horrors" like proprietary bread? statists guna state. seems like some of europe just looooves being told what to do like children

blitzar4• 4 years ago

Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me.

School shootings - why do we have to enforce not commiting school shootings with the stupid law, surely everyone can get together and agreee murdering a 10 year old for fun is evil and just not do it?

rufusroflpunch• 4 years ago

Kind of a ridiculous comparison. If you absolutely must compare this to school shootings, compare it this way:

Should a national government mandate only one method of security that every school must implement, or allow states/provinces/districts to experiment with what works for them? Even if the national government improves security in the short term, there is a strong possibility that the bureaucracy of national government's slowness to adapt will cause security to be worse in the long term.

permo-w5• 4 years ago

Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me

this idea that it is somehow a bad thing to force mega-corporations to do things that are good for society. it's so widespread and yet - short of actual communism - I have literally never seen any evidence of public action against mega-corporate interests resulting in damage to society as a whole, beyond the inevitable political lobbying and media corruption that ensues

is it any surprise that entities whose entire existence has been justified by clever storytelling (i.e. marketing) have been successful at convincing people that rules for them are a bad thing, while rules for you on the street are perfectly fine and actually good?

people act like these mega-corps are weak, soft little babies that need to be treated with kid gloves. "no, but what if this law could do that to them? but what if this law means they make 0.1% less profit this year?". I absolutely understand this kind of reticence with actual babies, or individual people, or small-to-medium-sized businesses, but it makes me angry that people are so reluctant to act against these unaccountable mega-entities. it is hamstringing society

NaturalPhallacy• 4 years ago

I don't see any win besides a minor convenience.

A minor inconvenience multiplied by the number of smartphones (7.33 billion) is not a minor problem.

It's not that it's a problem on the individual level, it's that we're roughly doubling the number of cables needed and halving their utilization at the same time. Yes I know android is more popular, but the issue is the two different cables needed.

https://www.bankmycell.com/blog/how-many-phones-are-in-the-w...

bodge50004• 4 years ago

I'd certainly much rather type-c than lightning or, god forbid, micro usb, but it also has its own issues. Issues that one would hope would be solved by the usb-d, and so on. The problem with this law is that it makes it much more difficult to start using future usb standards.

The EU addressed this by saying that they'll keep up with technology as it moves, but one thing that technology is famous for, and the EU is infamous for, is the speed at which it moves. 5 years is a blink of an eye in politics, and a lifetime in tech.

Thats not to say we'll never see another USB version, I just worry this will considerably slow things down.

It seems to me the more future-proof way to do this would be to force companies to use an open-standard. We'd still be stuck with the dreaded micro-usb, and possibly lightning if apple let everyone else use it too, but it solves the proprietary issue without locking us in for another ~10 years of just type-c

D13Fd• 4 years ago

Saying they’ll keep up doesn’t really make sense. The regulation will cause innovation to slow or stop in this area. So there won’t be a whole lot to keep up with.

After all, why invest money in improving your charging connector if you are going to be mandated to use USB-C anyway?

bodge50004• 4 years ago

I said in another comment, its a chicken & egg problem. The EU will allow new standards as they're used, but nobody will use new standards until the EU allows it.

Dalewyn• 4 years ago

Seeing as the U in USB stands for Universal, there are plenty of incentives besides politics to /not/ change physical designs such as the connections.

USB-C's introduction was (and arguably still is) fairly disruptive because it invalidated the universal nature of USB-A (and to a lesser extent -B and Micro).

Personally, I hope USB-C will be here to stay for at least the better part of a decade going forward. Finding that what was once universal won't be universal tomorrow is annoying.

AuryGlenz2• 4 years ago

They could have addressed this by having a built in sunset on the law - say, in 5 years. That would get everyone (Apple) on the same page in the short term but it would allow for further innovation.

spiffytech• 4 years ago

I'm eager to watch how Apple spins this as a voluntary decision in their product announcement. To see the specific wording they pick for how the timing is a coincidence and they really just care about their customers' best interests.

mwint2• 4 years ago

I’m kind of hoping they ship an EU Edition phone that is a normal phone, but with a dongle welded into the lightning port.

The dongle should have the phone numbers of those who passed this law etched into it.

Just let me keep my Lightning port as an American.

redox99• 4 years ago

I think they'll just go full wireless.

boxed• 4 years ago

I think Apple knows they need to switch, but now the EU will take all the bad press and their hands are clean. Such a huge PR win for Apple!

Xophmeister• 4 years ago

I didn't search _that_ hard, but I can't find the text of the EU directive; everything I did find does seem to mention USB-C explicitly. What is the procedure/convention for superseding this directive when something supersedes USB-C?

That said, even if the upgrade path is not expressly defined, I think on balance this is still a good thing. In a "best time to plant a tree was yesterday; second best time is today" kind of way, when it comes to reducing e-waste.

haunter3• 4 years ago

Yes it explicitly says "USB Type-C"

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/A-9-2022-0129_...

Hand-held mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones, headsets, handheld videogame consoles and portable speakers, in so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging, shall:

(a) be equipped with the USB Type-C receptacle, as described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-3:2021 ‘Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-3: Common components - USB Type-CTM Cable and Connector Specification’, which should remain accessible and operational at all times;

bodge50004• 4 years ago

What is the procedure/convention for superseding this directive when something supersedes USB-C?

I believe the EU are saying they'll keep up with new standards as they come in. The problem I see is, how can a new standard come in if nobody is allowed to use it. Its a chicken & egg problem, the EU will allow new standards as they're used, but nobody is allowed to use new standards until the EU allows it. Thats aside from the obvious problem that the EU isnt exactly famous for its speed.

The only ways around it I can think of is either if new standards become popular in markets foreign to the EU, or if some company decides to add both USB-C and USB-D to their device, which in a world of needlessly removing the headphone jack I cant see happening.

temprose3• 4 years ago

The connector can still remain the same while the internal changes. USB-C is just the connector head. Look at USB4 that still uses the USB-C head. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB4

It's just like we have new modern electronics, but they are all able to plug into the same wall sockets. I don't have to remodel my home.

ttepasse• 4 years ago

What is the procedure/convention for superseding this directive when something supersedes USB-C?

From the amended text:

The Commission shall review the application of this Directive in relation to new charging technologies and, report thereon to the European Parliament and to the Council by ... [three years after the date entry into force of this Directive], and every three years thereafter. That report shall be accompanied, if appropriate, by a proposal to amend this Directive to introduce mandatory unbundling.

If the USB Implementor’s Forum want’s to change from USB-C or USB-PD it can speak with the European Commission. It’s an organization with telephones and mail and an address and – I fear – fax machines. Not some weird angels in the sky.

sam_lowry_2• 4 years ago

Why not enforcing split sales? Charger apart from phone?

Pretty much like they should have done with computers and OSes in 2009.

Mind you, split sale = two items at checkout and the oppotunity to buy separately.

ThatPlayer4• 4 years ago

Yes, that was part of the proposal: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_21_...

Unbundling the sale of a charger from the sale of the electronic device

thiht• 4 years ago

What happens if a constructor wants to push for full wireless charging?

I didn't read the texts, but wouldn't something like mandating companies to release a version of their products with USB-C better instead of only allowing USB-C? Say for example Apple wants to release iPhone 20 with Lightning, or full wireless, then force them to also release iPhone 20 with USB-C and leave the choice to consumers? Is this allowed by the texts?

haunter3• 4 years ago

The text literally say ""in so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging"

So pretty much nothing, a manufacturer can go straight to wireless charging.

auggierose• 4 years ago

Did the EU just forbid improving on USB-C? Are cables really creating such a waste compared with the amount of resources that goes into creating the devices themselves?

roenxi9• 4 years ago

This legislation would have been stupid at any other time in the history of hardware. It will prove to be stupid now as well. There is no reason to think the USB-C is the peak of technical achievement or even consistently a local optimum design choice.

The EU has enough problems right now, they don't need to try and help Apple design iPhones.

nolok4• 4 years ago

This is not about making the best technical choice, this is about ecology and limiting waste, which frankly is a very important and urgent issue.

They let the industry regulate itself before regulating, Apple didn't play ball, leading to samsung saying either regulation or we do our thing too, so, regulation.

I prefer a slightly worse technical solution and a regulation that needs to be updated every few years, than every phone going back to the waste hell that used to be the cellphone charger/cable market.

roenxi9• 4 years ago

This is not about making the best technical choice...

Thank goodness for the EU parliament, protecting their citizenry from accidentally being exposed to the best technical outcome? Wouldn't want that. If people can't confidently say that the EU is making the best technical choices then the EU shouldn't be legislating technical outcomes. And they can't say that, because this isn't going to be the best choice - the best choice is flexible and context dependent. There are going to be better options than USB-C in some use cases. Possibly many use cases as technology improves. The legislators can't see the future - if they could they'd make better decisions.

I bet this doesn't have any material difference on waste. People will still lose and throw charges out at the same rate they always have. And manufacturers are going to turn out to be less efficient, the market is absolutely cut-throat at dealing with manufacturing processes that generate unnecessary waste. It won't be better than it is now, and they've locked out anyone doing a cheaper and less material-intensive charger than USB-C.

capableweb2• 4 years ago

Is there something in this regulation that says it can never be changed to something else in the future? Why do you assume USB-C will remain the standard for all future? Seems likely if something else pops up in 2030 that is way better, there is nothing to suggest a new regulation couldn't be made.

roenxi9• 4 years ago

How will they figure out that there is a better standard in the future? Certainly not with a study in the EU.

They're going to have to send investigators to more advanced foreign countries to figure out what charger to use.

throw8274747372• 4 years ago

Come on, you are clever, I believe you can figure out the answer yourself, if you didn't already...

hyperman12• 4 years ago

There is no reason the EU can't upgrade to a new standard, or the USB consortium can't create a backward compatible upgrade. My USB 1.0 keyboard from long ago still works, BTW.

Meanwhile, I have a box full of chargers for all kinds of old stuff. Replacing them all with 1 standard is great. And USB is doing just that, not only for cell phones but for all kinds of gadgets. Even if I only require an USB micro and an USB C charger, that's a ton of chargers not in my house, and a ton of time not hunting around for the right one.

The main problem here is Apple. The EU went to all cellphone makers and told them to either agree to a standard voluntarily, or the EU would decide from them. This kind of process is quite normal for technology decisions in europe, BTW. Most manufacturers agreed on an USB variant( might have been micro at the time, don't know if C already existed ). Apple refused to join the club or come with an other acceptable proposal.

If a kid refuses to play along, the adults have to force the situation. The kid might not like the result and whine a bit afterwards. What surprises me is that it took so many years before this happens.

roenxi9• 4 years ago

This kind of process is quite normal for technology decisions in europe, BTW.

Europe is technologically backwards. They got destroyed by Shenzhen and Silicon Valley because their bureaucrats keep rolling in with this sort of idiocy. They feel a need to bring this backseat design process because their local companies aren't up to the challenge of competing with more-nimble American megacorporations.

Their phone company (Nokia) was the market leader until they got wrecked by an inability to innovate. This policy will make that outcome even more likely for European companies.

Then to add insult to injury, Huawei comes along and showed that they could operate at any standard you care to ask them to. If you get outcompeted by authoritarians and communists, it is worth asking what is wrong with your economic policies.

dahfizz12• 4 years ago

For reference on how quickly the EU moves on these things, USB-C is over 8 years old. It has been ubiquitous for years before this legislation came down. They aren't exactly staying on top of new tech.

Also consider: USB-D is going to have a much harder time reaching the market penetration it needs to be relevant. It creates a chicken and egg problem. No manufacturer will want to upgrade if they are required to use USB-C, and the EU will never update the legislation if USB-D isn't widely used.

The EU has traded some extra convenience now for severely limited innovation later.

DrNosferatu• 4 years ago

Can anyone please post a link to the list of MEPs who voted against? (or the complete list of vote directions) Thanks!

haunter3• 4 years ago

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/PV-9-2022-10-0...

Against:

ECR (European Conservatives and Reformists ): Ilčić (Croatia), Jurzyca (Slovakia), Zahradil (Czechia)

ID (Identity and Democracy ): Haider (Austria), Kofod (Denmark), Mayer (Austria), Vilimsky (Austria)

PPE (European People's Party Group): Herbst (Germany)

looperhacks• 4 years ago

You can find a PDF [1] on the website of the european parliament

[1] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/PV-9-2022-10-0... page 16

jhoelzel4• 4 years ago

"Starting in 2026, USB-C will also become the norm for laptop chargers."

I believe it when I see it! My Surfacebook has USB-C Charging but its not enough to run the GPU at max. I hate the surface dock that I need to use but from my understanding -i do have to use it- because of the power requirments.

iampivot• 4 years ago

USB-C can easily deliver 100w continuously if the charger and laptop supports it.

capableweb2• 4 years ago

Seems current USB-C is limited to 100W, future will be limited to 240W. Seems most modern mobile GPUs could exceed 100W, but are within 240W at least so seems we're relatively safe.

But who knows with the new GPUs... Maybe should be a bit more headroom?

jhoelzel4• 4 years ago

while true I only have one and would need two!

If I could connect my SB1 directly to my monitor I totally would :/

francoisprunier• 4 years ago

The law says it's only for devices whose power consumption is under 100W.

source : https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2021/6988...

sudden_dystopia• 4 years ago

Because they don’t have bigger things to worry about right now…

nolok4• 4 years ago

One, large entities like that have a lot of people working on a lot of things, and the people dealing with whatever emergency is the current one are not disturbed or slowed down by that in the slightest

Two, if you wait until everything is perfect and there are no issue to fix the everyday things, then you never do.

Your comment makes no sense.

akmarinov2• 4 years ago

That's like saying that you have you a mortgage to take care of, so you have no time to buy groceries, make food, eat and spend time with family.

akmarinov2• 4 years ago

Currently Apple sells new iPhone 12s, a 3 year old "design".

Starting 2024, they'll have to only sell phones with USB-C in the EU.

Assuming the iPhone 15 has USB-C, where does that leave the previous generations that they keep selling for new?

Do they:

1. Stop selling anything but the 15 in the EU?

2. Make a change to all new iPhones, even 13, 14, SE to:

  2.1 Take out the port completely and leave it portless, with Magsafe for charging

  2.2 Change the 13, 14 and SE designs to USB-C just for the EU?

What costs them the least money and makes them the most?

xattt• 4 years ago

Tesla appears to have no problem selling EVs with standard plugs in places where it’s mandatory.

(1) https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/14/tesla-model-3-in-europe...

I think Apple will find a way to say that the iPhone 12 was made before the law was enacted and therefore shouldn’t apply to this particular model.

I also think the iPhone 15 will be the one to have with USB-C. At the same time, they haven’t had too many problems to keep multiple SKUs of the same model - ie CDMA iPhone 4, mmWave only 5G phones in the US, eSIM only versions of later models.

Heliosmaster2• 4 years ago

From the text of the Proposal:

With respect to charging by means other than wired charging, divergent solutions may be developed in the future, which may have negative impacts on interoperability, consumer convenience and the environment. Whilst it is premature to impose specific requirements on such solutions at this stage, the Commission should be able to take action towards harmonising them in the future, if fragmentation on the internal market is observed.

So they left the door open to regulate also Magsafe etc.

wdb• 4 years ago

Nice, it is pretty stupid I need Lightning cable for my iPhone, an USB-C cable for my iPad and MacBook and electric tooth brush. One less able that I can be lost

sva_• 4 years ago

Now do Laptops.

danielbln• 4 years ago

They did, coming into effect in 2026.

imchillyb• 4 years ago

This year Apple removed another long standing port from their devices. This time around it was the sim tray.

Apple is going completely portless with their devices.

By the time this law is in effect there will be no external ports on Apples devices.

Anyone want to take bets on whether Apple introduces its own wireless charging standard at that time or the following year?

zimpenfish2• 4 years ago

This time around it was the sim tray.

Only in the US, I believe. My UK iPhone 14 certainly has a SIM tray with a physical SIM in it - lucky, really, because my provider doesn't support eSIMs.

[edit: just checked and it seems my provider is the only big one that doesn't support them.]

nottorp5• 4 years ago

just checked and it seems my provider is the only big one that doesn't support them

And how about the small ones? I see eSim as limiting choice.

First the provider must support it. Second they have to support it and be compatible with my phone.

Third, how do you switch providers with an eSim? Do you need to contact servers for both the provider you're leaving and the one you're switching to? What if one of them is not reachable?

How likely is it that the provider you're turning off can put in some innocent administrative hurdles?

Physical sims seem to give me a lot more choice since no one has any say in what I plug into the phone.

PaulWaldman• 4 years ago

I wonder what the EU thinks of Tesla's charging port? Will all electric cars in the EU eventually be regulated into using J1772 ports without an adapter?

tehbeard• 4 years ago

I'm pretty sure if I remember a technology connections video right, that EU Tesla's already ship with either the standard port or an adapter, none of the US supercharger plug mess.

wincy2• 4 years ago

Do they charge as fast? Is there a trade off for the standard port being used in the EU?

jeroenhd• 4 years ago

Most Teslas in the EU use the standard ports. I believe the Tesla charging network also uses these. Imported Teslas probably need some kind of adapter to work.

sebazzz• 4 years ago

EU doesn't use J1772 but CCS Combo 2 instead (for DC fast charging and AC). Vehicles without DC charging usually have a Mennekes connector. Tesla has an adapter to allow charging via CCS. Almost all cars in Europe use CCS, except for a few older Asian cars which may use CHAdeMO. Modern Tesla vehicles also use standard CCS.

Besides, this EU regulation is for small portable electronics. Last time I checked I didn't carry my car in my back pocket.

Legislation to require CCS on charging points has been active in the EU since 2014, 8 years ago.

kalleboo8• 4 years ago

Tesla superchargers in the EU all use the standard CCS2 ports. Tesla model 3 cars in Europe have the standard CCS2 port instead of the Tesla port, the older models ship with adapters.

For car charging, the industry appears to be self-regulation well enough.

MisterTea• 4 years ago

I don't like the current basket case of a standard we call USB. I'd like to see it replaced one day because we can do better. Making it law is absurd.

pain2022• 4 years ago

Forced usb-c charger for laptops is concerning.

1) it is additional attack vector, what if maid in my hotel enhanced my charging brick with rubber ducky?

2) mag safe is very convenient

thefz5• 4 years ago

Why? I use the same Baseus 65-W power brick for two phones and two laptops very, very conveniently. And GAN chargers are a third of the size of traditional power bricks.

Also, who cares about magsafe? Only Apple laptops have it.

I think the move to USB-C is a smart one, it can even reach 100W. Speeds are insane too.

wincy2• 4 years ago

Gaming laptops draw over 100W. Won’t this eliminate an entire market of laptops that require specialized plugs that can deliver more power? Or else you’ll end up with the dreaded “dies while it’s plugged in” situation.

scrlk2• 4 years ago

USB-C for laptop chargers isn't a fantastic idea IMO. The majority of laptop manufacturers solder USB-C ports to the motherboard, so when the port inevitably wears out/becomes loose, you need to have micro soldering skills to replace it. Putting the USB-C port on a daughterboard (or flex cable as seen in phones) isn't easy to do if you want to push USB 4 speeds through the port (40 Gbit/s).

Compare that with the traditional barrel connector which is usually an easy repair. Most designs have the barrel connector on a cable assembly rather than having the connector soldered to the motherboard.

vladvasiliu7• 4 years ago

Also, who cares about magsafe? Only Apple laptops have it.

I wish more laptops had it. My old work HP laptop's USB-C port started having some play, so my monitor wouldn't always connect properly to it. Bump the desk, and the screen would start to flicker. The same monitor / cable works perfectly on other PCs.

My new HP work laptop has the USB-C port so tight, that whenever I need to unplug the charger, it counts as arm day.

And while I, personally, don't do it all the time, it does happen from time to time that I grab my foot in the power cable and drag the laptop with it. I usually realize it quickly enough to not pull it completely off the desk, but it's the kind of fear I never had with my MBP.

_visgean• 4 years ago

1. if you are worried about these type of attacks than charger is least of your worries... You should probably turn off thunderbolt support completely...

2. I think mag safe chargers will be allowed to continue. Note that even now you can charge the macbooks with magsafe with usb-c charger..

trballq• 4 years ago

How exactly is the charger the least of the worries if it is the one thing that you are forced to use?

I'm sure these will be available in iPhone design soon:

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/usbharpoon-is...

A charger has one job, namely to charge. Stop this "thin hardware design" mania and design a proper plug.

jsmith45• 4 years ago

The law does not mandate that USB-C be the only way of charging the device. Simply that it supports it as a charging method (if it supports any wired charging method at all) and that if the device can be charged via cable at voltages greater than 5 volts, or currents greater than 3 A, that it also support USB Power Delivery. Plus there are some labeling requirements, like indicating on the box if the device includes a charging brick or not, indicating minimum and maximum charging wattages supported, etc.

Fiahil6• 4 years ago

Fast-Forward to Autumn 2023 or Spring 2024 :

Tim Cook: (40:20) Now let’s talk about iPhone. iPhone has forever changed the world. Every single day people rely on iPhone, from their most demanding tasks to capturing the moments of their lives, streaming their favorite TV shows, playing their favorite games, staying up to date with the news of the world and connecting with friends and loved ones.

Tim Cook: (40:42) This is what drives us to create the best iPhone possible. To create an experience unlike any other, with legendary ease of use, beautiful and durable designs with water resistance and great battery life, with industry leading performance and the world’s most advanced camera systems, and with privacy built in. People love iPhone, and we keep making iPhone better, more powerful, more capable, and even more fun to use. Today, we are thrilled to introduce our next generation of iPhone. Here it is.

Tim Cook: (41:54) [inaudible 00:41:54]

Tim Cook: (41:55) This is iPhone {15,16}. To tell you more, here’s Kianne.

Cayenne: (42:24) Let’s take a closer look at, iPhone {15,16}, starting with design. It has the sleek, flat edge design that people love. It also have a fantastic new charging port, featuring the same USB-C connector as our beloved iPad, developed in a tremendous effort to {fight against climate change and electronic waste,further enhance the connectivity of the iPhone {15,16}}.

WithinReason2• 4 years ago

I thought it was going to have no ports and only wireless charging

Bilal_io2• 4 years ago

Unless I can charge it with my body temperature, I don't want anything to do with a device that has no connector.

tomxor2• 4 years ago

Nah, in a move of immense courage they will ditch charging all together and start selling single use iPhones. I can see the dollars rolling in now.

JustSomeNobody• 4 years ago

I have been seeing comments like this since the news of the EU law. Does nobody use CarPlay? Most CarPlay systems are wired. I don't see Apple going portless any time soon.

joe-collins• 4 years ago

Notably absent from the list of product categories is wireless charging pads.

So, Apple ditches the wired charging port, and continues to sell their MagSafe Qi chargers with Lightning.

nucatus2• 4 years ago

Say no more. You're hired.

scrlk2• 4 years ago

"...and that's the new iPhone. It's our best iPhone ever, and we think you're going to love it! Now, back to Tim"

gnicholas8• 4 years ago

Fast-Forward to Autumn 2023 or Spring 2024

Since when does Apple introduce new iPhones in the Spring?

gruez3• 4 years ago

iPhone SEs were released in the spring.

seydor• 4 years ago

That's like , 75% of the new features of Iphone 15

Am4TIfIsER0ppos• 4 years ago

Starting in 2026, USB-C will also become the norm for laptop chargers.

Fuck off! Barrel plugs are great.

sbuk4• 4 years ago

Certainly if the quality of USB-C ports on Thinkpads in anything to go by.

peteradio2• 4 years ago

Have thinkpads 2+ years but don't have any issues. What is the problem with the ports?

0x0• 4 years ago

What happens when "USB-D" is designed? Will it be illegal to upgrade to in Europe?

Also I wonder if this will push Apple to go wireless-only.

temprose3• 4 years ago

The connector can still remain the same while the internal changes. USB-C is just the connector head. Look at USB4 that still uses the USB-C head.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB4

ralfd3• 4 years ago

Yes, but are we now stuck with the USB-C connector head? Is a smaller form factor now impossbile?

cabirum• 4 years ago

Any guarantees a new, incompatible USB standard does not get introduced soon after? (Or even before end of 2024)

The one true universal charging port is a round DC plug. USB power delivery should only be used to power external devices.

dahfizz12• 4 years ago

Is this just mandating the physical plug? USB-C has a near infinite number of power delivery and/or data modes. Not to mention thunderbolt, display port, etc which are totally different protocols running on the same physical cable as USB-C.

How will this legislation be maintained? Are Europeans going to be stuck to USB-C in 30 years, when the rest of the world has phones that charge wirelessly in 10 seconds and last for weeks?

nucatus2• 4 years ago

The core of the law is to have the same standard across the entire consumer products. Which basically it is already, only Apple having the power to ask you more money for unnecessary accessories whilst contributing to more e-waste, even if they talk against it - hypocricy detected.

gumby• 4 years ago

It mandates Type C plug and receptacle and the use of PD. PD 3.0 doesn’t require so many modes, and since there isn’t much choice in chipsets things should work OK as long as the brick provides adequate power.

Read the directive for yourself: https://oeil.secure.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popups/ficheproc...

I do wish there were type C USB condoms that passed PD only but they are hard to build.

EU previously required USB mini A, and permit wireless (which isn’t completely standardized) so I wouldn’t worry about the “30 years” problem, though it’s a good problem to have: IEC 60320 is over 50 years old: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320

dahfizz12• 4 years ago

Very informative, thanks!

harvie• 4 years ago

Well. Somebody said they will just ship adaptors with the iPhones...

timbit4210• 4 years ago

Then iPhone users will be stuck with Lightning's USB2 speeds.

skinnymuch• 4 years ago

Wouldn’t that count as a dongle? Those aren’t allowed.

bb123• 4 years ago

What happens when we want to move on from USBC? Do we need a stamp of approval from the EU to do it? No thanks.

temprose3• 4 years ago

The connector can still remain the same while the internal changes. USB-C is just the connector head. Look at USB4 that still uses the USB-C head.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB4

It's just like we have new modern electronics, but they are all able to plug into the same wall sockets. I don't have to remodel my home.

jmull5• 4 years ago

That doesn't really answer the question, though.

Is the USB-C connector going to be the best connector for everything on into the future?

What about mag-safe-like connectors? Wireless? Something you and I can't even think of right now?

Introducing such a connector won't be an engineering challenge so much as a political one. The barriers and cost will be much higher, and quite possibly insurmountable from a practical perspective.

coffeeblack5• 4 years ago

1 year to invent the new tech.

10 years to lobby the EU to update the law.

dividedbyzero• 4 years ago

No mention of sex toys, even though globally I believe that market is already larger than the smartwatch market. Are they covered but not mentioned in the article, or have they been left out?

TheSpiceIsLife3• 4 years ago

Another fucking adaptor.

whiddershins• 4 years ago

I genuinely believe if Apple thought USB-C was better for the phone they would have implemented it.

For one thing, I suspect it is harder to the make the phone as thin, or as waterproof, with the bigger connector.

Apple also doesn’t have a monopoly, Android has far larger market share globally than they do.

I’m confused what is supposed to happen as new connectors are developed, will the Eu prevent progress on phone connectors or does this law have a sunset?

I’m having trouble seeing a bright side here. If we’d had this law before we would all be stuck using mini-usb.

MikusR• 4 years ago

To make lightning cables/devices you have to pay apple. To make USB-C you don't

IYasha• 4 years ago

What about photo and video industry? It is SO maddening to have proprietary incompatible overpriced plugs, cables and adapters everywhere!

heckelson• 4 years ago

i believe the article mentions video and photo gadgets too, but I only skimmed it briefly

emaro2• 4 years ago

I agree with the overall tone in the comments here: yay in general, but what a shame a law needs to specify a specific port for ~iPhones~ devices.

I really like USB-C. It's sooo convenient to charge my notebook, my headphones, my phone, my everything with the same cable. However what bothers me since someone pointed it out to me: for phones, which are used all day in all kind of situations, lightning has a big andvantage over USB-C. It's has no parts inside the port and therefore is harder to break. Maybe we get something like this with USB-D, but hopefully it will take a long time until then. Meanwhile I'll enjoy my Fairphone, which has a replacable USB-C port.

nottorp5• 4 years ago

Well i really like magsafe :)

jayd16• 4 years ago

They're not incompatible. They make bootleg magsafe USB-C cables.

coffeeblack5• 4 years ago

Very much agree. The port design of lightning is superior, too bad that now a law mandates Apple to sell the inferior solution. But that’s what you get when laws eliminate competition.

ZiiS• 4 years ago

Apple has been using the law to stop other phones coming with lightning ports. If they had left it open the market may well have chosen it.

pwpw2• 4 years ago

Bell Labs allowed others to produce transistor based hearing aids royalty free. Volvo allowed others to use a 3-point harness system royalty free. Apple created Lightning to solve a problem and wanted royalties on all products using it. Naturally, the market moved to another solution.

While Lightning may be a good piece of technology, I think Apple is largely to blame for its demise. Standardization is good for consumers. Apple had control over its fate. I don’t blame them for wanting to collect royalties, but they were the only major manufacturer on the market not playing ball with a standardized port. Yet even their other products use USB-C, and the MacBook was actually an early adopter.

Accordingly, I don’t think this law eliminates competition. It brings simplification to consumers for a simple, boring port that can now be shared with many of their other goods and a single cable.

dkjaudyeqooe3• 4 years ago

Superior how exactly? It's not clear that its properties plus royalty costs outweigh the alternative royalty free standard.

amluto• 4 years ago

Superior how?

Lightning ports have springs that wear out inside. They have issues with arcing, which damages the plug (look at a charging cable that has been in use for a bunch of cycles. One pin on each side will be burnt.).

But hey, the plug part is pretty, so it must be better

nkingsy• 4 years ago

I’ve bought and worn out SO many lightning cables.

Never before have I dealt with such a poor connector. All my usb c is working fine. All my lightning cables work about half the time, need to be jostled. I know if I buy all new ones AGAIN it will sort out the problem.

I don’t understand this take and replies.

Also, lightning doesn’t power external devices. Love that I can run a midi keyboard off my new iPad. The same on my iPhone requires a powered usb hub.

ddalex• 4 years ago

if it's so superior, why doesn't apple use the lightning connector on Macbooks and iPads and uses USB-C on those ?

I mean, it's stupid that if I buy an Iphone and an Macbook today, there is no cable in either box that can connect those two

IsNotNull3• 4 years ago

Apple disagree. They moved away from Lightning on iPads and Macbooks already.

moffkalast4• 4 years ago

Honestly yeah, the standardisation part is fantastic but I absolutely hate that the industry at large settled on USB-C ports that are so pathetically easy to break it's hilarious. Micro-USB and Mini-USB were both far more robust.

And also the part where there are a billion specs for the same cable so you never know what you're dealing with. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the bluetooth team came up with the standards...

schmuelio7• 4 years ago

Micro-USB and Mini-USB were both far more robust.

Micro-USB and USB-C both have the same minimum durability ratings, you may just be buying non-compliant cables (or you're encountering selection bias or something):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Durability

eropple2• 4 years ago

This is the first claim I've ever heard that Mini-B is "far more robust" than USB-C. Mini-B is legendarily breakable, both from a pin standpoint (really low lifetime insertions) and from a physical one (the port profile put a ton of strain on the device side). Micro-B was created to resolve those problems, and did a decent job through the latching teeth on the back, but has fewer pins available for advanced connectivity and no room to add them in a backwards-compatible way. Even for small devices, the additional pins are beneficial for standardized high-rate charging via USB-PD.

Both Micro-B and USB-C are similarly rated for robustness.

rektide• 4 years ago

I personally have owned 5 phones with worn out USB micro-b ports, where to charge them I'd have to lay a book on the cable or position the phone at an odd angle.

I have never seen anyone do this with a USB-c port. I have never heard anyone complain their USB-C port wore out.

USB-C was designed for far greater durability & reliability & IMO it clearly & obviously shows.

asgeir2• 4 years ago

USB-C has the springs in the plug while the receptacle is only fixed contacts. Lightning on the other hand has the springs inside the receptacle.

This means that for USB-C you replace the cable when the springs wear out, but for Lightning you need to replace the port.

Cleaning lint out of a USB-C receptacle with a toothpick is safe, but sticking anything into a Lightning port could damage the springs.

yoz-y2• 4 years ago

Cleaning lint out of a USB-C receptacle with a toothpick is safe, but sticking anything into a Lightning port could damage the springs.

Safe-ish because you can break off the inner plastic part. On USB-A this was a pretty common failure for me. On USB-C not yet

emaro2• 4 years ago

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't know that.

In my experience, cleaning the lightning port with the end of a paperclip was never an issue (dust from my pocket liked the spot; always helped when charging got unreliable).

klausa• 4 years ago

On the flipside, this means the thin logic board that connects to the pins is in the host device, not in the cable.

Which means if you break it off, you need to replace the whole port, which might be difficult or expensive; instead of the (relatively) cheap cable.

I _love_ USB-C as a concept, but this alone makes, in my opinion, Lightning the superior physical connector.

And yes, I have had to replace / throw away entire devices because of a USB-C port breaking like this.

Sure, I should be less of a clumsy oaf around my electronics, but I also don't think "not bricking the entire device when extra force is applied to the port" is unreasonable design goal for a physical connector as universal as USB-C is.

cal852• 4 years ago

Interesting about the springs, I didn’t know that. In practice though, the opposite to everything you say seems to be true based on using many (many) of both connectors over the years. I’ve had a couple of disasters with USB-C ports breaking (on the device, not the cable), while I’ve never had anything go permanently wrong with Lightning sockets. Your point that it has delicate springs inside it sounds concerning but seems to be totally theoretical - you can see customer service staff in Apple stores frequently just whip out a SIM key or paperclip and waggle it about in a customer’s iPhone to clean it with total abandon. And I’ve always done this with mine, treating it very rough with metal paperclips, I’ve never worried about hurting the springs. And it has never, ever gone wrong for me. The evidence seems to be that Lightning is just much more resilient.

You say that cleaning out a USB-C port is safe, but I know it’s not, because of that little snap-off wafer inside, which has broken on me twice before. It’s not safe, I promise. Don’t do it unless you have a good warranty!

dzhiurgis7• 4 years ago

Wireless charging is always secondary option after or before the physical port wears out.

csmpltn2• 4 years ago

"what a shame a law needs to specify a specific port for ~iPhones~ devices."

The only shame here is that companies consistently chose lock-in over open standards, even when it's clearly detrimental to the user's experience and the environment.

If the "adults in the room" can't figure it out (out of greed), it's fair game for governments to step in and make a choice for everybody. That's what a government should do: create clarity and accountability where there is none.

This idea that we need dedicated connectors for every little piece of hardware we own is simply not sustainable.

barsonme4• 4 years ago

even when it's clearly detrimental to the user's experience

This is entirely subjective. Personally, I’ve never been bothered by the different port type. I’ve also never really known it to be a problem for friends and family.

That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t prefer USB-C for the iPhone. Just that for me it’s not been “clearly detrimental.”

tasuki• 4 years ago

It's sooo convenient to charge my notebook, my headphones, my phone, my everything with the same cable.

This really works for you? When I try charging my laptop with my phone cable/charger, it not only doesn't charge, but the laptop requires a hard reset to start turn on again. When I try charging my phone with my laptop cable/charger, it just doesn't charge. So while it's great in theory that everything is USB-C, it doesn't solve that much for me...

vel0city• 4 years ago

It does for me. When I travel, I only travel with my laptop's USB-C power supply. That charges my phone, my laptop, my Switch, my wife's phone, her headphones, and her e-reader.

frosted-flakes3• 4 years ago

When I travel, I bring one 30W USB-C charging brick and a 2m USB-C cable, in addition to a Dell battery bank that has a short integrated USB-C cable. These charge my phone, laptop, iPad mini, and Nintendo Switch. At home I have a dedicated 45W charger for my laptop, but the 30W charger is much smaller and works just fine.

Unfortunately, I still need to bring a 6" microUSB cable as well, because my Logitech mouse, bicycle headlamp, and pocket flashlight (that uses 14500 lithium batteries) still don't have USB-C ports. I plan on upgrading all of them to USB-C when I can, but these rarely need to be charged so it's not as big a deal for me.

pradn• 4 years ago

I’ve tripped over an old iPhone, catching the cable and deforming the charging port. That made charging the phone difficult until I got a new one. Now I only use the MagSafe charger to prevent another such mishap. One more “moving part” that I don’t have to worry about.

tommoor2• 4 years ago

This is great in the short term, but does the law covers what happens when a superior format is invented in a few years. Are we stuck legislated to the old plug?

coffeeblack5• 4 years ago

No superior format will be invented, because it would be illegal to use it anyway. This is how progress is destroyed. It’s not the first time.

hu3• 4 years ago

If you read the law you'll see that your concern was taken into consideration and they planned for innovation. More info in this comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33080042

LeetHacks• 4 years ago

No, the law allows for technological innovation if the usb group proposes a new connector, or if the industry wants to move to another connector. It will require some lobbying though, but the big tech companies are well skilled in that.

tommoor2• 4 years ago

Seems like a reasonable compromise

pimterry5• 4 years ago

I'm not sure the mechanism, but it's certainly _intended_ to support future standards.

Quoting from the press release (https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220930IP...):

This future-proof law allows for the development of innovative charging solutions in the future

Also says they're already looking at how to support interoperability during a future migration to wireless charging too.

zaphod420• 4 years ago

So many problems and this is what politicians spend their time on. SMH.

donatj8• 4 years ago

This is supposed to "prevent e-waste", but I can't imagine how. Like I've switched between iOS and Android, and I didn't just throw all my lightning cables out.

Now with them being made actually useless rather than not what I'm using right now, it's going to create so much e-waste when every iPhone user switches cables.

Seems like it's doing the exact opposite of what it's intended.

pimterry5• 4 years ago

It also mandates that manufacturers must make "do you want a charger" optional in purchases of electronic devices, which is where waste reduction comes in. That only works because the chargers are all interoperable, and hopefully leads to a world where far fewer device chargers & cables are produced and distributed unnecessarily.

donatj8• 4 years ago

If it were about chargers, you'd only need to dictate the plug on the charger, not the plug on the phone.

timbit4210• 4 years ago

It creates some more e-waste now but will reduce e-waste by a lot in the future.

owisd• 4 years ago

Everyone upset about losing lightning. Apple will 'malicious compliance' this and keep the lightning port and just add a USB-C port that does charging and nothing else.

ReptileMan3• 4 years ago

It will be damn ugly. Non starter.

saurik2• 4 years ago

I am much more expecting them to do something like remove the port entirely and move to wireless charging only; or, for maximum humor value, make the lightning port incapable of charging the phone in Europe only, such that it isn't a charging port there and thereby isn't subject to the regulations (forcing only the people in Europe to use wireless charging).

seanw4443• 4 years ago

Now that would be funny.

gempir• 4 years ago

As far as I understand the ruling they have to have a USB C port on their device that allows charging.

Removing the port entirely is not an option.

asasidh• 4 years ago

Imagine if we had to wait for legislators to get any tech innovation. EU is proving that it is going backwards in everything with each move.

whywhywhywhy2• 4 years ago

I'd rather it hadn't come to this because I don't believe in regulation to this extent. But there honestly hasnt been any excuse for a long time for them not to do it. Especially when some other iOS products have it, same with the AirPods case. It's purely to make more money from cables and you can tell this from the lengths they go to that make sure non-legit cables are so unreliable and have DRM.

rmccue3• 4 years ago

AirPods use Lightning cables for charging, not USB-C. (Potentially your sentence could be read the other way though so not sure if you intended to say that.)

whywhywhywhy2• 4 years ago

You knew what I meant so it doesn’t matter.

Night_Thastus• 4 years ago

I have no sympathy or love for Apple, but this seems wrong.

Technology comes and goes, standards evolve and fall away as new ones arrive.

I don't think the law has any place in deciding who uses what connector in this fashion. They can make an e-waste argument all they want, but it's nonsense. All it does is stifle future work on connectors and devices in general.

manuelabeledo7• 4 years ago

Apple has actively participated in the USB-IF almost from its inception.

The answer to your conundrum is thus quite simple: Apple must now work with the standards it has helped create.

Deukhoofd3• 4 years ago

The law just makes it so that a single industry standard must be followed. Changing this standard is fairly easy, it just requires the European Commission to amend it. This means that if there's a better connector, USB-IF (being made up out of most of the people actually designing the hardware using it) can just release a new standard and get it approved.

Edit: It's actually the Commission, not parliament that's allowed to change standards.

logicalmonster2• 4 years ago

This means that if there's a better connector,

What if there's more than 1 design in progress for a better cable and connector with competing tradeoffs? Designing stuff means picking the right tradeoffs. For instance, you could probably design a phone that is close to indestructible and has a battery that lasts for a month if you made it as big as a brick, but obviously nobody wants that. For cable connectors, there's all kinds of subtle tradeoffs that could be taken into account: data transfer speed, electricity transfer, size and weight of cable, how easy it is to connect and how secure it is when connected, its role in waterproofing, stability in heat and challenging environments, security, etc. Are you really comfortable with some parliamentary committee vote picking between the right design tradeoffs?

And what if there's a connector that's slightly better than the existing one today, but you know that something that's clearly much better is ready in about 1-3 years? Can a parliament have the judgement needed to make the right engineering decision in the face of loads of political pressures?

Their choice has to be right because no market alternative would exist. Do you genuinely feel comfortable with this? I sure don't.

lvass• 4 years ago

Words of Comission spokesperson, 2060: We're fully aware of Deukhoofd's words and even though they aren't in the letter of law, we're still working hard on approving a better connector. Unfortunately as all things in life, there are tradeoffs with every single change, so we're planning to come up with a new definition of the term "better connector" in the next 10 years. Stay tuned in our hard work and don't forget to vote on us if you want to see this finished.

pembrook• 4 years ago

Changing this standard is fairly easy, it just requires the European Commission to amend it.

Is this sentence intended to be sarcastic? I can imagine nothing more draconian and backwards than having to lobby a political organization for permission to do something innovative and outside the norm.

ciberado• 4 years ago

I don't see it is a regulation against Apple. It is just a question of being coherent with the other hundred of smartphone brands that are forced to use a single interface for the charger. And I really don't miss at all the times when we needed to have 3 different types of them at home.

_fat_santa• 4 years ago

In principle I agree with you, but in practice I don't. When Apple released lightning we didn't yet have a USB-C, so lightning was a good alternative, even though it was proprietary. Now things are very different, and USB-C is here and is widely used.

It would be one thing if we were stuck on Micro/MiniUSB and the EU wanted apple to use a clearly inferior technology, but USB-C stacks up very well against lightning, possibly even better.

I don't see this as the EU saying "you must start using USB-C" and more "look you can't use your proprietary cords anymore that we have very good standards, considering you are the biggest phone maker on the planet"

pif3• 4 years ago

All it does is stifle future work on connectors

And that's exactly the point! Stop pretending you are special and use the same connector as anybody else.

If you really, really need a new connector:

1. propose a new standard;

2. make it retro-compatible with all the existing devices;

3. leave some slack for the next one who will need some more capabilities;

4. the parliament will declare your standard the new one.

necovek3• 4 years ago

I personally already have a number of USB-C cables that had their connectors detach at one point or another. They are mostly braided, rather thick, 100W-rated PD cables, but they generally suck and are quick to break (I keep a couple at my desk, a couple in my car, a couple stored away for travel, and a couple bedside — it's great they can charge both my laptop and my phone).

Connectors in my devices also look a bit fragile.

I am all for sharing connectors and standardization in this space (and I check if a device has an USB-C port before I consider it), but I surely hope this does not stop improvements to the charging port which are highly needed!

jeffbee• 4 years ago

USB-C cables and ports are more fragile than Lightning cables and ports, unfortunately. USB-C is sort of the complement of Lightning: instead of a sturdy paddle on the cable end, it has a delicate paddle inside the port. It is very easy to break this paddle off. That happened almost immediately to my Nexus 5x, one of the first USB-C implementations. You can also easily break off the pins when you need to clean pocket lint out of the port, an extremely common problem for mobile phones.

Physically, Lightning is a much more robust solution.

cyborgx7• 4 years ago

Self-regulation only works if government regulation is a serious threat in case self-regulation fails. In this case, self-regulation failed, so government regulation stepped in to force industry to do what is right.

All the handwringing about stifling innovation is on its face ridiculous as mandates to use micro-usb didn't stop android phones from adopting the new and better standard as soon as it was viable.

Krkrmfnfmmd4• 4 years ago

Government mandates on how you can charge your phone won't stifle innovation?

emptyfile• 4 years ago

Was that a question? Of course not. In fact the parent comment even provides an example.

garmanarnar• 4 years ago

Correct! In fact it can even help innovation.

pimterry5• 4 years ago

Yes, it won't. As parent points out, the EU previously mandated micro-usb support (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply) which worked fairly well, and hasn't stifled the innovation that's resulted in USB-C.

dkjaudyeqooe3• 4 years ago

USB C was designed to be the "last" physical connector, the whole point was standardisation. Now that the market has failed to deliver this, government steps in. In this case it's supporting an innovation. More "innovation" in connectors is what we're trying to avoid.

ben_w3• 4 years ago

What exactly is genuinely innovative about the iPhone connector at this point? It's 10 years old, and the only selling point I can see it having over USB (even when it was new) was the rotational symmetry (which is now also possible with USB C, which is what's being mandated).

axlee• 4 years ago

I don't know, did government mandating electricity plugs standards stifle innovation?

reaperducer• 4 years ago

All the handwringing about stifling innovation is on its face ridiculous as mandates to use micro-usb didn't stop android phones from adopting the new and better standard as soon as it was viable.

I'm not sure I understand your logic here. Android phones were able to quickly move to micro USB because they weren't restricted from doing so by a government regulation.

If there was a government mandate requiring phones to have whatever connector came before micro USB, wouldn't that have prevented the Android phones from changing connectors/choosing the new innovation?

Or was there a location where micro USB was required by law before, and since I don't live there, I wasn't affected by it?

Edit: Strike that last sentence, since I see in other responses that there was, indeed, a location where micro USB was mandated. So my new question is: How does a company change to a new/better connector, if it's required by law to use an old connector?

Edit edit: Looks like other responses show there was no mandate, that's just something that people on HN assume. It was a recommendation, not a law, like it is now.

dogleash• 4 years ago

If there was a government mandate requiring phones to have whatever connector came before micro USB, wouldn't that have prevented the Android phones from changing connectors/choosing the new innovation?

Dunno, we have a test case tho: how'd the Micro-B to USB-C transition go in EU markets?

BiteCode_dev• 4 years ago

Micro usb was mandatory in europe for phones years ago.

BadOakOx• 4 years ago

How does a company change to a new/better connector, if it's required by law to use an old connector?

EU is pushing for "One charger for all" for a long time. Here is an article from 2011 [1], so this is nothing new. I don't think they enforced it at the time, but the manufacturers (and the EU?) agreed to use Micro USB. Now they are going for USB-C, so they definitely are not in the way of innovation. I think if there is an agreement between manufacturers to support a new standard, it will be adapted.

[1] https://www.theverge.com/apple/2011/10/4/2469886/apple-relea...

hjkl0• 4 years ago

So my new question is: How does a company change to a new/better connector, if it's required by law to use an old connector?

It would be like a nation state deciding to change its standard electric socket, like a country with US sockets switching to EU sockets. Doesn’t sound easy.

slavoingilizov• 4 years ago

Well... I agree with the spirit of the effort, but not the letter of it.

>> From spring 2026, the obligation will extend to laptops

So this would force Apple to replace MagSafe with USB-C? How is that not killing innovation?

Standardisation should be a goal, but I just feel this particular effort is too specific and brings very little value to consumers. Why don't we standardise payment protocols instead? Or biometric identity verification? Or ID cards even (that the UK is allergic to)? I just feel the spirit of these efforts can be applied so much more successfully elsewhere.

yoz-y2• 4 years ago

How would it force apple to replace magsafe? All modern apple laptops can already charge from USB-C. Magsafe is just another option.

lgrebe• 4 years ago

Because law makers actively experience the pain of having different chargers in their day to day lives.

mateuszf• 4 years ago

How is that not killing innovation?

It's not such a great innovation if it makes users life harder.

code_duck• 4 years ago

Is Apple currently using MagSafe? Both of the recent MacBooks in my household, from 2020 and 2021, have standard USB-C connections.

mtoner23• 4 years ago

Macbooks support magsafe and USBc charging, i imagine thats sufficient to meet the requirement

tjoff• 4 years ago

Surely apple will still have usb-c on its laptop. And you would be able to charge through either magsafe or usb-c.

Just as you can with MS Surface.

ben_w3• 4 years ago

So this would force Apple to replace MagSafe with USB-C? How is that not killing innovation?

Depends how the law is written.

"Must have at least one USB C port for charging"? Then current laptops with magsafe are already compliant.

"Must only have …"? Then I would agree it goes too far.

closewith• 4 years ago

Why don't we standardise payment protocols instead?

Like SEPA and PSD2?

Or biometric identity verification?

Such as AFIS or maybe EU 2019/1157?

Or ID cards even (that the UK is allergic to)?

EU 2019/1157 again?

It's not like EU standardisation of chargers is an outlier.

ldoughty• 4 years ago

My MacBook currently has 4 USB-C ports that I can pick to charge from.

My last Macbook had 5? different ports on it, two of which were older USB standards.

Nothing stops apple from ALSO having a proprietary connector, as long as USB-C is still an option to charge.

Why don't we standardise payment protocols instead? Or biometric identity verification? Or ID cards even (that the UK is allergic to)?

None of these result in hundreds of thousands of tons of plastic and copper or other metals being put in a landfill or dumped in the sea because they were only useful for 3-5 models of a single businesses devices.

Apple is still free to make this e-waste, but now their devices must support charging on USB-C, which they are free to NOT make their own chargers for, as long as it's standard-compliant and supported

yokoprime2• 4 years ago

My MacBook can charge with USB-C and MagSafe. If iphones had both a USB-C and a lightning connectors, this law would probably not have been pushed through.

orwin3• 4 years ago

All taht is already standardized btw. The countries do have some leeway in their implementation though, that's whay the EU driving license was quite quickly adopted in some countries, and very slowly in others (mine...).

MichaelZuo3• 4 years ago

There were no mandates to adopt micro-usb in the EU.

As a sidetone it's astonishing how quickly a lie easily disprovable by publicly accessible information, in this case the EU's own website, can be spread around by people that otherwise seem like credible HN members.

tempest-tost• 4 years ago

Am I missing something here?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2010-12-29...

yokoprime2• 4 years ago

The writing has been on the wall for years and years that manufacturers have agree on a standard charging plug. Had micro-usb been the direction we were still heading, that would have become the mandated standard.

This law is by all intents and purposes a law directed at Apple, who is the sole hold-out of the large mobile phone manufacturers regarding proprietary charging connectors.

Fradow2• 4 years ago

Saying there was no mandate is only technically true. The EU gave an ultimatum to phone companies to make a compatible charger "or else", which led to a "Memorandum of Understanding" [1] deciding on Micro-USB.

Apple didn't follow that Memorandum, the EU got pissed, so now we reached the "or else" part (it took quite some time considering the Memorandum was more than 10 years ago).

[1] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/MEMO_1...

jcelerier• 4 years ago

There were no mandates to adopt micro-usb in the EU.

... huh ? https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_11_...

Following a mandate from the European Commission, the European Standardisation Bodies CEN-CENELEC and ETSI issued the harmonised standards to be adhered to by data-enabled mobile phones compatible with the new common charger as of 2011. The common charger solution is based in the Micro-USB connector technology

bee_rider2• 4 years ago

Thank goodness, micro-usb kinda sucked, especially compared to USB-C (which seems quite good).

It is sort of weird that they decided to mandate USB-C rather than creating an ongoing group to keep track of charging and update the rules accordingly (like in the US, where many of our laws create an agency to regulate something rather than having congress pass a new, slightly different law every couple years)

jollybean4• 4 years ago

? how did self regulation fail ? There's nothing wrong with the way iPhone charges. This is an unnecessary intervention. There are plenty of bigger, more relevant fish to fry.

treeman79• 4 years ago

Relevant, probably. Bigger. Probably not. Apple is huge.

krisoft• 4 years ago

There's nothing wrong with the way iPhone charges.

Well. I'm lugging around one cable which charges all my devices from bike lamps to powerbanks. And there is a totally different cable I'm also lugging around to charge my iphone. Why is that necessary?

Also my iphone charging cable frays all time, while my "everything else charging cable" does not.

scarab92• 4 years ago

EU could have mandated adoption of a certain connector for a certain period of time, rather than for all time.

That way regulation provides the stick to force standardisation, but allows whatever new innovations develop later to have a chance at gaining a foothold. If we find ourselves in this situation again (with a single holdout) we can force the standardisation for a period of time again.

kalleboo8• 4 years ago

The EU regulation has a stipulation to re-visit the chosen standard at set intervals (IIRC 3 years?), it's not "for all time"

hbgl• 4 years ago

The reason why Apple still uses the Lightning port is because of regulation in the form of patents which give them a 20-year-monopoly on their plug design. Without the previous regulation there would be no need for this new regulation.

neither_color2• 4 years ago

It's not "right" as in morally right; it's just slightly more convenient. Mandatory convenience. I personally don't understand people's passion for this cause. I'm ok with dichotomy and nuance in life. I'm learning that having two cables is a huge impediment to some people's lives. So be it.

n8cpdx• 4 years ago

This assumes that it is in the government’s interest to dictate the kind of cable used to charge phones, and that making the “wrong” choice is such a bad outcome that industry needs to “self-regulate”.

Perhaps the EU should step in to force industry to do what is right in all cases, not just charging cables:

- ban e2e encryption - pedos and criminals use it

- mandate client-side CSAM scanning on all devices, report directly to local police instead of going through untrustworthy Apple (they can’t even get charging cables right, can we trust them to protect your child?)

- require all new devices to be tamper resistant so you can’t get around EU laws

- require all phones to be the same shape and size so that citizens can re-use screen protectors and cases in perpetuity

- ban purple devices - it offends EU bureaucrats, and obviously the continued existence of purple phones is evidence of the industry’s failure to self-regulate. EU bureaucrats know better than the market and always have.

int_19h7• 4 years ago

The interest isn't in dictating the specific kind of cable, but rather in having a single kind that's universal. It's the industry that converged on USB-C by itself, not the EU bureaucrats.

donatj8• 4 years ago

Are there exceptions to this for things like small devices? For instance, my Xiaomi smart watch charges with a USB->magnetic pogo pin adapter and that seems apt for the small size.

Way easier than trying to fiddle with a tiny door covering a USB port like on some of my headphones.

etiennebausson• 4 years ago

Quoting the article:

> Exemptions will apply for devices that are too small to offer a USB-C port, such as smart watches, health trackers, and some sports equipment, but the legislation is expected to be expanded to other devices over time. Companies will also have to ensure that dedicated labels clearly inform consumers about the charging characteristics of devices they buy.

chasd00• 4 years ago

A law specifying a technical hardware feature on a consumer device not related to safety is ridiculous. Is there no other higher priority for the EU to work on?

Avamander3• 4 years ago

I'm sure the EU isn't single-threaded.

Zigurd• 4 years ago

Like the law regulating every power cord attached to every AC powered device ever?

jen209• 4 years ago

That is nominally related to safety, is not mandated EU wide, and if it were would be a great example of a dumb idea unless they standardized on the type G plug. I have encountered four different connectors just this week in the EU, none of which are as safe as the British design.

yourusername• 4 years ago

Apple should love it. No way a USB-C port lasts 5 years in daily use.

dzikimarian2• 4 years ago

My oneplus from 2017 would like a word with you.

burlesona2• 4 years ago

There’s an eternal conflict between “Chaotic but Smart” vs “Orderly but Dumb.” Historically the tech industry has been very much on the side of “Chaotic but Smart.”

This is a victory for “Orderly but Dumb.”

For the essential read, see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State

the_other• 4 years ago

And just like that, 100s of 3rd party devices become obsolete and worthless.

timbit4210• 4 years ago

No, they will still work.

Hippocrates• 4 years ago

USB-C is inferior from the hardware/form standpoint. It's a larger, more fragile and flimsy connector (than lightning) which is very un-apple. It can be crimped shut if rolled on by a chair. Additionally the charging standards are a total mess, with PD and QC requiring compatible chargers and cables, which are often unlabeled.

I'm all for a great charging standard but USB-C ain't it.

izacus5• 4 years ago

Apple itself is using the USB-C connector on their Apple MacBooks and Apple iPads. Somehow it's "Apple" there?!

(Seriously, why am I constantly seeing these utterly ridiculous comments in Apple topics? Do you not think for half a second before writing something utterly misguided?)

phendrenad23• 4 years ago

Well maybe it's because you're also misguided. You missed the part where they use USB-C where appropriate. Think for just a second about how people use different devices, and you'll understand. Or if I have to explain: iPads are mostly used by responsible adults (such as parents). iPhones are used by a wide range of people who might be charging them while driving on the road, while sitting in a chair, in a public transit terminal, etc. iPhones need a much more rugged connector. So I suggest that you "think for half a second before writing".

simplyinfinity• 4 years ago

Is this why Apple use USB-C on some of their iPads?

seanw4443• 4 years ago

That's a fantastic point actually. I wonder why they choose to use USB-C at all for any device, when Lightning is objectively better from a physical engineering standpoint.

Covzire• 4 years ago

Apple better keep Lightning for Non-EU markets, it's is a vastly superior connector in every way. The most fragile part is at the cheap cable end instead of inside the device. There's no upside here for those of us with a half dozen lightning cables around the house and cars.

timbit4210• 4 years ago

Superior except the speed is USB2 and no one else uses it.

seanw4443• 4 years ago

It's certainly better than micro-USB, but agreed: Lightning is the superior design.

Who puts the weak point of the connector inside the more expensive of the two objects? That was a terrible design decision. Maybe Apple's patents prevented USB from doing a similar design, so they had to come up with one that was objectively slightly worse?

kalleboo8• 4 years ago

Lightning has the springs in the port, if the springs wear out you have to replace the device. USB-C has the springs in the cable, the cheap part to replace.

Then USB-C went and added that "tongue" in the port to break.

Neither standard is very good...

gorbypark2• 4 years ago

I thought it was the other way around? All the springs and movey bits are in the male usb c connector. With Lightning, those bits are in the phone. I’ll agree Lightning has the nicer “feel”, that’s for sure.

uni_rule• 4 years ago

If they really cared about charger durability they wouldn't have removed the supports from the cable joints until their first party cables regularly frayed apart at the cable ends.

runarberg• 4 years ago

Then have the cord part removable and replaceable from the brick (which is already the case with most phone chargers). If the connector gets damaged, buying a replacement would be easy and cheap.

E.g. I hate it when the 3.5mm audio jack cord of expensive headphones is soldered stuck to the headphones. When it breaks, and it will, I have to replace the entire headphones (or do a lousy soldering job) rather then just the cord. Computer chargers are the same.

teekert• 4 years ago

But can they still drop the port altogether? I bet they will, going full MagSafe.

idkwhoiam• 4 years ago

Just a regular day in the EU. Can the EU pass law for all cars to use the same tyre dimensions? A set of EU approved haircuts would also be very welcome! /s

nudgeee2• 4 years ago

Closer to mandating common EV charging connectors, which has already happened in the EU (CCS Type 2).

exabrial• 4 years ago

Apple is just going to remove all ports.

Keep complaining and they're going to remove screens next to be super super duper innovative.

timbit4210• 4 years ago

The EU did this to help the environment. Wireless charging is less efficient than charging cable and wastes electricity, so we may see the EU ban wireless charging.

mwint2• 4 years ago

Apple should ban the EU, that’d straighten this mess out pretty quick.

pier25• 4 years ago

Ironic isn't it?

Considering Apple was enforcing USB-C on their MBPs back in 2016 to try to impose innovation.

shaman1• 4 years ago

Being recently in the market for car tires I say that some standardisation benefits the consumer and reduces waste. There are so many sizes of tires that you have limited choice on purchase and resell. Unfortunately there is no incentive for companies to standardize because they loose revenue. Apple can make a custom port and sell an overpriced cable and adapter for it. Maybe it's slightly better but is it that much better to worth keeping it?

There should be a work group that takes more of these decisions with the aim to reduce waste says the dreamer in my but the circumspect thinks otherwise. If Apple invents a revolutionary port what happens next? Do they need EU approval?

karolist• 4 years ago

Car tire sizes are designed for specific wheel sizes (diameter and width), which in turn are manufactured on criteria such as arch sizes, break disc and caliper clearance requirements, engine power, steering mechanism and suspension setup (for offset) and of course looks. Car wheels are interchangeable to an extent but you have to maintain same diameter to keep speed measurement accurate, so bigger wheel results in thinner tires for summer for example, and smaller, cheaper and uglier wheels for winter season where you risk curb damage, but then smaller wheel - taller tire. We would have to give up the massive car choice amounts we have to standardise here so I'd say not a great analogy.

kalleboo8• 4 years ago

The EU tried very hard, for very many years to signal to the industry "do this yourself so you don't have to legislate it, we don't want to legislate it, you don't want us to legislate it" but Apple (and only Apple) just refused to listen, so here we are.

For micro-USB, they got the industry together in a "memorandum of understanding" to get them to self-implement it without regulation, and it worked great - everyone adopted micro-USB, and then could switch to USB-C, without thinking about legislation with the understanding that the industry would use common standards.

The whole rest of the industry adopted the common standard and are looking at Apple "hey if they can do it why can't we?". If the EU doesn't crack down on Apple now, we're going to end up back again with a Samsung charger, a Sony charger etc.

kortilla2• 4 years ago

The EU tried very hard, for very many years to signal to the industry "do this yourself so you don't have to legislate it, we don't want to legislate it, you don't want us to legislate it" but Apple (and only Apple) just refused to listen, so here we are.

This doesn’t make the approach any less interventionist. “Either do what we want or we’ll pass an official regulation for you to do what we want” isn’t much of a choice.

Tell me, if Apple truly believes their lightning connector is better, what was the better play here? Intentionally make a worse product (from their perspective) or keep making the better user experience for as long as possible?

yellowapple11• 4 years ago

if Apple truly believes their lightning connector is better, what was the better play here?

The better play would've been to open up the Lightning connector specification such that other vendors could standardize on it, and then all users of all phones would have been better off.

TheCoreh• 4 years ago

I don't think Apple believes Lighting is superior. They were heavily involved in the design of USB-C, and that was _after_ Lightning was already in use. They certainly applied learnings from Lightning into it.

I believe the most likely reason they stuck with it this long is contracts with accessory makers. After they switched from 30 pin, there were probably concerns from third parties that they would soon switch again, so to ensure everyone was on board with the transition they probably signed agreements to keep it for a while.

Notice how it's been exactly 10 years since they launched Lightning and now we are getting rumors of next year's iPhone moving to USB-C, before this legislation comes into effect.

Bluetooth Audio and wireless CarPlay are now commonplace, so this is no longer an issue going forward, but wired accessories were a big market in 2012.

kalleboo8• 4 years ago

My argument was against all the people saying "but this way we're going to be stuck with USB-C until the end of time!". The EU was happy with the market going from micro-USB to USB-C at it's own pace. They didn't want to legislate "use microUSB forever" and they didn't have to.

The EU's preferred way would let the industry continue to innovate freely as long as the market converged on common, open standards. But 30% of the market (=Apple) using a proprietary non-licensable plug was too far away from the idea of market experimentation.

GuB-42• 4 years ago

This doesn’t make the approach any less interventionist. “Either do what we want or we’ll pass an official regulation for you to do what we want” isn’t much of a choice.

The jobs of governing bodies is not to give "choice", they are here to make sure people and companies do what they should do, and take action when they don't and it becomes a problem. The UE wanted a universal connector, for a variety of reason, they never wanted to give "choice". However, they also understand that they are not engineers and inventors, and the industry has plenty of these people, so they said "get together and make the best universal connector". And the industry did, first with micro-USB, which was better than most of what was there at the time, then with USB-C, and the EU was happy. Except that one company was a problem, so the EU went back to the industry and said "I said I wanted a universal connector, why isn't the connector universal?", Apple said "Because blah blah blah (fuck you)", and the EU said "OK, we didn't want to do that but it looks like USB-C is good enough for everyone else, so if you want to continue to sell your gadgets in the EU, use USB-C".

sneak3• 4 years ago

but Apple (and only Apple) just refused to listen, so here we are.

Did consumers find this so onerous that they stopped buying iPhones?

permo-w5• 4 years ago

this is an excellent explanation for why this kind of public regulation is necessary. of course they didn't stop buying them. and this is exactly why regulating businesses by consumer behaviour is so so unwise

multiple standards may well be easily avoidable, inconvenient and bad for the environment, but people aren't going to change their behaviour, solely because they like Apple's UX

the_jesus_villa• 4 years ago

Maybe this is a feature. When your phone is low on battery, you ask for a charger, and when presented with a normal, plebian charger you get to say "oh, sorry, I need an iphone charger".

If people want to get a practical, compatible phone, they don't get an iphone. iphone only exists as a signal. So while the EU is making a good decision for making iphone's more pratical, they are also misunderstanding what an iphone is imo.

fomine37• 4 years ago

Yeah, I don't like EU regulating this but this is finally due to Apple.

jupp0r3• 4 years ago

If this had passed earlier, we'd be stuck with micro USB for ever.

I want USB-C instead of lightning as much as anyone on my phone but I wonder what this will mean for innovation in the future.

timbit4210• 4 years ago

Read the other comments for the answer.

Decabytes• 4 years ago

I wonder if Apple will just make them iPhones in 2024 portless and only chargeable via wireless to combat this

ajdude• 4 years ago

I honestly hope they go this route, and as a side effect give us waterproof iPhones.

roamerz2• 4 years ago

EU knows best. Just look how well making everyone click to accept cookies worked out.

And “empower consumers to make more sustainable choices“. typical gov speak. If I was Apple I’d build in a lightning to usb-c adapter to the bottom and add a chin to the phone that resembled the older Pixels and engrave on it EU mandated.

rswail3• 4 years ago

The GDPR is an unalloyed good for consumer protection.

The fact that stupid website designers and even stupider web marketers want to collect useless information to the point that they have to have complicated cookie acceptance banners is not the EU's fault.

The GDPR forces system designers to actually work out how to deal with their customers saying "forget about me" and the regulations have the force of law and fines behind them.

It makes it much easier as a designer to say "No you can't collect random information and make a profile of the customer that we can sell to unrelated companies, because otherwise we'll get a huge fine."

roamerz2• 4 years ago

It actually is the EU’s fault as before the law I didn’t need to click through anything. It’s a clear cause and affect.

Also regardless of what websites say in the notices that I must click through I still manage privacy settings on my side through browser controls.

bartread• 4 years ago

To be honest I have pretty mixed feelings about this. The Lightning port is extremely robust, and I already have quite a few Lightning cables from several generations of iPhone, so to some extent this seems like it's just going to generate quite a bit of e-waste.

plandis• 4 years ago

Why is it so hard for Europeans to not buy an iPhone if they don’t like the charger type?

This will slow any innovation in charging cables until enough powerful companies need something new. Small innovators are SOL since they won’t have the influence to get the EU to allow it.

IsNotNull3• 4 years ago

This will allow me to use my Apple iPad charger or my Apple MacBook charger to charge my Apple iPhone. Not being able to do that currently is not innovative, it's annoying.

alfor• 4 years ago

Think about how wonderful are the cookies laws!

That really improved the web and the reduce tracking!

sfaruque• 4 years ago

Thinking out loud if Apple would resort to making 2 versions of their iPhones? And then exclusively selling the USB-C version in the EU, and everywhere else giving the customers a choice.

zephrx1111• 4 years ago

Scared mao, thought EU is regulating the size of my dick.

albertTJames• 4 years ago

HN / libertarians: Laws are for fools.

Reality: Laws are the only way to civilise mankind.

jbotz• 4 years ago

No matter what you think about regulating this kind of thing in general, in this case I think it's not a big deal and definitely a positive. No matter whether it's a lightning, usb c, or other kind of connector, these connectors break fairly often and thus should be easily swap-able modules by design in the first place. Manufacturers like Apple who think they have a better connector will be incentivized to make the connectors as modular as possible so that having different models for different markets will add little to the cost. Everybody wins.

TheYumasi• 4 years ago

As an EU citizen, I am really happy with this decision.

I am an iPhone user, but having an iPhone is not ubiquitous here, almost all of my friends/special other, use an Android phone with USB-C. Most of their laptops, Mac or not, use or allow USB-C for charging. This as been the case for a few years now, yet, if I go somewhere for more than a full day and forget my lighting cable, my phone will become a useless paperweight while every non-iPhone user is fine in the meantime because of the wide adoption of USB-C. It is also ironic how Apple markets heavily on how you can take great RAW photos or videos but somehow you have to use lightning USB2 speeds to transfer them. Lightning is barely smaller than USB-C, and clearly my iPhone thickness will not change if it switches to USB-C.

As for the e-waste generated by "having to throw all of those lightning cables", how is it not e-waste that someone buying an iPhone will have yet another lightning cable that will only be used to charge it. If we want to really be more environmentally friendly, wouldn't it make more sense to have no cable at all with the devices we buy, force the sellers to clearly tell the consumers about it and offer the cable on the side only if needed? With that cable being usb-c, the consumer don't have to think about the cable type, for non-tech savvy people, that would be "the regular charging cable" and that's it. I would also add that all lightning cables won't suddenly go to the landfill in 2024. Many people will keep their iPhones/AirPods for a while after that date. Many would probably donate their old lightning cables to whoever needs them. In the meantime, we all already have an ever growing landfill in our homes called the cable drawer, and it is also an issue that needs to be addressed.

m00dy• 4 years ago

As a Turk living in EU, I second the comment above.

blue_light_man6• 4 years ago

This is such a short sighted view.

What just happened is, EU, a political organization enforcing the use of a technology on a company which operates on free market. It's Apples best interest to make technology that the consumers want so that they can sell more units of that. A political organization like EU has no say in this. EU citizens already make this decision for themselves by voting with money and choosing to buy/not buy an iPhone.

Today is one of the dark days of EU. In short sight it's a victory. But in long sight it's a hinderence to progress by enforcing a technology on the market instead of letting the free market decide the technology.

doikor• 4 years ago

A political organization like EU has no say in this.

EU and most people living within it would disagree with this statement.

lelanthran3• 4 years ago

What just happened is, EU, a political organization enforcing the use of a technology on a company which operates on free market.

Where are you living that your free market isn't regulated for the benefit of the consumer?

Swenrekcah• 4 years ago

Respectfully, I would claim it's short-sighted to believe that the individual consumer has any real say in what they want, need or get with respect to offerings by trillion-dollar international conglomerates.

There is no such thing as a free and unregulated market. Well, it exists but we call it the law of the jungle.

This is not to say that any regulation is sensible, but this kind of standardization to avoid vendor lock-in and waste is one of the prime examples of sensible stuff.

soulofmischief• 4 years ago

The market is not free. Apple already enjoys the fruits of lobbying and market consolidation. Users are not free.

germinalphrase• 4 years ago

You think Apple is dragging its feet on iPhone USB-C adoption because it's in the best interest of consumers to do so?

ddoolin3• 4 years ago

It's a phone charging port. It's not that serious. It's better for consumers if we all have the same one for everything, if possible. Unless you can tell me why not?

Fiahil6• 4 years ago

by voting with money

"voting with money" or "voting with your wallet" is a complete non-sense. There is no -absolutely no- way for anyone in the industry to attribute a lost sale to a "missing" feature.

I think this also a symptoms on how Americans view the world through means of consumption. Everything HAS TO be consumed one way or another.

joenot443• 4 years ago

Political organizations like the FCC already control parts of what an iPhone is and isn't allowed to do. Apple's never been in a position where they can offer exactly what the consumer wants without any political regulation, they've always had to follow some rules.

I don't think this will go down as an important or sector-changing decision. I remember hearing the same thing online about the 2009 common external power supply law and if anything it feels like the consumer is better off.

As others have said much more eloquently than I could, the answer for a happy market probably isn't total unregulated capitalism _or_ full government control, but likely somewhere in the middle. I've been an iPhone user since the 3GS and I'm pleased with this decision.

sbf501• 4 years ago

on a company which operates on free market.

You probably shouldn't have based your argument on this statement, which is generally regarded as a myth. It is a myth in the sense that Apple exists in a free market: it is a near monopoly but is savvy enough not to wade into the area other companies did in the 90's and were penalized.

Second, governments have the right to enforce environmental protection acts to protect the health and safety of its people. Technology companies are subject to this from day one at many levels (e.g., fabs have limits on how much toxic waste they can pump into the air).

The EU is leading the way for cracking down on trillion-dollar companies who choose to treat you as a product rather than a person. I hope the rest of the world follows.

funklute2• 4 years ago

A political organization like EU has no say in this.

This is the short-sighted view. The unguided free market very often makes "decisions" that are detrimental to society as a whole, and it is absolutely necessary for political organisations to correct for this.

poulpy123• 4 years ago

Actually the only thing that EU is interesting is for standardizing stuff

Arrath2• 4 years ago

You seem to be placing a lot of doom and gloom onto the proscription of a given physical port.

Its not as if the EU mandated flawed encryption, or silicon manufactured only within the bloc.

jlarocco• 4 years ago

Phone’s already aren’t a free market.

Do you, or any consumer, have perfect information about the phone market? No. Does your phone comply with FCC and EU rules? Yes. Does it contain mercury? No. Are there any taxes or tariffs on them? Probably. All of those and more mean we don’t have a free market.

Corporations exist because we let them, and they play by the rules we decide.

dainiusse• 4 years ago

Sorry, but can't agree here. Lightning is USB2. The only thing Apple uses it for, is thei cable business

mort96• 4 years ago

It's Apples best interest to make technology that the consumers want so that they can sell more units of that.

This is so hilariously wrong. It's in Apple's best interest to do whatever makes them the most money. Sometimes that happens to coincide with what customers want, but it often doesn't, _especially_ in a market with a duopoly with an incredibly high affinity for lock-in.

cptskippy• 4 years ago

It's Apples best interest to make technology that the consumers want so that they can sell more units of that.

And in the absence of a competitive advantage, you create a captive market. Apple was smart in quietly creating a captive market as they built out their ecosystem because they saw this eventuality. One of the ways they created it was by making the ecosystem both expensive to enter and leave. You're heavily invested in proprietary hardware and all of your digital assets are locked to the ecosystem and cannot be utilized outside it.

The Lightning port was innovative at the time it was introduced but it has been eclipsed in most ways by USB-C. Now it's just a DRM'd lock-in mechanism.

My partner recently switched to an iPhone. I bought a USB-C Charger, and some *certified* Lightning to USB-A cables in various lengths from various manufacturers to enabled the device to be charged all over the home and in the cars. Suddenly after 3 months the iPhone refuses to charge from any of the cables or using the USB-C cable that came with the phone plugged into the USB-C Charger. The cables work however when I use an old iPhone 6 or if I plug the new iPhone into a computer using one of the cables. No errors, no warnings, just nothing; the iPhone just refuses to charge from them.

Apple says the DRM exists to protect users from dodgy or counterfeit cables that might pose a risk to the users. Unsurprisingly [this official Apple cable](https://i.imgur.com/icsPxJx.jpg) will charge the iPhone just fine at full speed.

I for one welcome this regulation though I'm sure Apple will find a way to nerf it.

tunap• 4 years ago

But in long sight it's a hinderence to progress by enforcing a technology on the market instead of letting the free market decide the technology.

No, it's not in any way a hindrance to the market, merely one player who desires rent seeking. What it is doing is enforcing standards on manufacturers instead of the other way around.

twen_ty• 4 years ago

Oh please - Apple had more than a decade to improve on the lightning cable - you somehow infer that progress will be hindered now because of this ruling? You do realise why standards actually exist?

gbanfalvi• 4 years ago

It's Apples best interest to make technology that the consumers want so that they can sell more units of that.

It's Apple's best interest to do what makes them money, and it often aligns with what customers want.

A political organization like EU has no say in this.

Standards bodies in the EU have be defining things like this for decades.

EU citizens already make this decision for themselves by voting with money and choosing to buy/not buy an iPhone.

As an Apple customer I might be voting with my money, but not on the connector specifically -- just on whether the product's collective pros outweigh their cons (and whether it's better than the competitor's, ofc). If I could vote, I would've voted for USB-C a long time ago, but I just get to choose between a set of products with varying compromises. Don't know why you try to make it seem like a democratic choice.

Today is one of the dark days of EU. In short sight it's a victory. But in long sight it's a hinderence to progress by enforcing a technology on the market instead of letting the free market decide the technology.

If the free market had its say, it'd be choosing profits over the environment, consumer safety and worker rights every time. Or..? Why hasn't the US, with much laxer regulations free-marketed itself to utopia?

xdennis3• 4 years ago

This is such a short sighted view.

It's not. The EU tried to do it the easy way, where companies would agree amongst themselves. This was finally accomplished in 2009[1] by every one except Apple.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2009/06/10-companies-agree-t...

After 13 years, the EU is finally forcing Apple.

EU citizens already make this decision for themselves by voting with money

We're also voting with our votes and most of us agree with that the EU is doing here.

_abox2• 4 years ago

A political organization like EU has no say in this. EU citizens already make this decision for themselves by voting with money and choosing to buy/not buy an iPhone.

I think it's important to point out that most EU countries do not subscribe to the exact same free-market vision that the US does. And the biggest country that did has recently left it.

Most of Europe is totally happy with a much more restricted free market than the US would ever allow. This is not something imposed on us people. It's what the majority wants, aka democracy.

mountainriver2• 4 years ago

Yup this is huge government overreach and the EU increasingly looks hostile to tech companies which produce most of the value in modern economies.

Don’t like the lightning cable? Buy a different phone, it’s really that simple

jhoechtl2• 4 years ago

Out of curiosity: You are from the US, own lots of Aple appliances and hold APPL stock? Which one of my bets is wrong?

krzyk4• 4 years ago

If it is a free market, let me install a different app store than the apple one.

remeq• 4 years ago

EU is not trying to impose regulation or standardization on highly innovative areas of hardware or chipset design or software design or anything of that matter. They are imposing it for something that has largely been understood and comoditized (electric charging of phones via cable and data transfer using open communication protocol) where there is little room for getting any kind of competitive advantage or differentiation or some significant innovation. Speaking about hindrance of progress is largely far fetched and not based on reality. Things like this are really not blocking any meaningful progress but they indeed are largely abused by enterprises to push proprietary things to consumer so that it can be monetized and consumer locked in the vendor ecosystem.

andmarios• 4 years ago

Then what about EU enforcing more energy efficient buildings and home appliances, electric vehicles and more?

EU is not a political organization, it is a political and economical union. If companies are left alone, they will never make a decision that does not benefit themselves. This is why we need EU, to make the decisions that benefit the planet and the people, thus leveling the field, so companies can compete within sane limits.

fsckboy• 4 years ago

depending on your definition of "free market", if you're looking for the benefits of a free market, apple's monopolistic behavior is also a source of market failure

jackvalentine2• 4 years ago

A political organization like EU has no say in this. EU citizens already make this decision for themselves by voting with money and choosing to buy/not buy an iPhone.

Surely this goes both ways - if you don’t want to play by the rules you can vote with your business and not sell in to that market?

fennecfoxy4• 4 years ago

It's Apples best interest to make technology that the consumers want so that they can sell more units of that Consumers wants? More like Apple wants to use one of the few proprietary technologies that they can get away with, so they can sell you cables, whilst fostering an almost cult-like adulation of their company & what they do so that any time Apple's decisions are questioned, legions of people defend them for no reason.

The lightning connector is outmoded. The cables Apple makes are designed to fail, mostly around the heatshrink area. The digital standards that lightning supports are outdated: 0.480Gbps vs 20-40Gbps for USB C/+TB.

rs999gti2• 4 years ago

What just happened is, EU, a political organization

An unelected political organization

birksherty2• 4 years ago

I don't care about private companies, if they want to operate with people they must follow a standard and so the news is good. All the time these companies do whatever they want like ditching headphone jack, fixed batteries, even if people don't want it. They force the change and we have to comply.

So yeah it's great for long term.

hedgehog6• 4 years ago

Lightning is a better connector for small devices and it's more durable in my experience. USB-C is way better than micro as a connector but you end up with the issue of many kinds of cables that look similar but are not interchangeable. What speed? PD support? Power only? Who knows!

Maybe switching to a less durable connector or no connector is fine given that Qi support has gotten pretty good. Most of the Lightning cables I've purchased are still in circulation, I'd prefer not to replace them.

If the EU really cared about solving a problem they'd ban micro, that connector is really fragile and totally superseded by type C.

themitigating• 4 years ago

They are interchangeable but may not charge as fast or transfer data as fast. So they are still useful.

jonny_eh2• 4 years ago

Lightning is a better connector for small devices it's more durable in my experience

It's less durable in my experience. I can do this all day.

klempner4• 4 years ago

There is no such thing as a C to C cable that is "power only" or doesn't support PD, unless it is grossly spec incompliant.

The minimal spec C to C cable is USB 2 data and supports power delivery with currents up to 3 amps (i.e. 60 W at 20V 3A)

This is enough for most phones, and almost all of the exceptions use proprietary charging that isn't going to work on a C to C cable anyway.

The labeling issue of all these cheap shit cables is a serious problem, but it is a nonissue in the phone charging context.

kmlx3• 4 years ago

I am an iPhone user, but having an iPhone is not ubiquitous here, almost all of my friends/special other, use an Android phone with USB-C.

yes, this is an interesting statement. and it's true.

basically in the countries that form the European Union Android has a higher market share than iOS. in some big countries like Germany, Spain, France and Italy Android has between 60% to 70% of the market.

but what's more interesting is this: in the UK, Canada, Australia and the US the iPhone has more market share (and in NZ it's very close).

anecdotally, in the UK pretty much everyone in big cities have iPhones. i very rarely see an Android device.

i do wonder why. it could have to do with cheaper prices for Android and a general lower penetration of technology in those countries, but i think this seems too facile.

f1shy• 4 years ago

I have a feeling the iPhone market penetration, in the named countries (Central EU vs Common Wealth) has a strong correlation with other aspects of the daily life in said markets (for example Facebook use, MSN Messanger --ok, some 10 years ago-- use of cash in daily purchase) At least that is my feeling, which of course can be completely biased. I would find really interesting a study in that.

rozularen• 4 years ago

Not only that Android is cheaper but also the mean income in countries where Android is prevalent is lower than those where iOS is, with exceptions like Germany, France (I'd need to see market share data from these exceptions)

speleding2• 4 years ago

The main problem I have with USB-C is that it is not a particularly good standard for power delivery. For one, USB-C is not "IP rated" for use in the kitchen or the bathroom, so you still need separate chargers there. Also the USB-C connector supports fast data delivery, which makes it a lot more expensive than a connector that focusses on power only.

A standard that would do just power delivery <100W and works in damp environments, so it could cheap and universal, would have been so much better.

thatfrenchguy2• 4 years ago

A standard that would do just power delivery <100W and works in damp environments, so it could cheap and universal, would have been so much better.

Don't you just have a RCD/GFCI on your outlet / breaker for this purpose?

crote7• 4 years ago

Agree on the IP rating, that is definitely not ideal - although excusable in practice.

Regarding cost: the fast data is optional. Charging-only usb-c receptables are available for $0.025 / each. To be fair, a micro-b can be found for $0.015 so it is more expensive, but it's not exactly going to bankrupt anyone.

jwr2• 4 years ago

USB-C is just a connector.

If we follow this logic, the EU should also mandate which aspects of USB-C PD are required to be supported and enforce that. Otherwise we'll end up with a slew of devices without even the required 5.1k resistors, which can't charge from PD-compliant adapters, but can be charged using a USB-A to USB-C cable.

As an EU citizen, while I do agree that regulation is often required (it did wonders for our roaming charges!), I do not like this development.

arcticbull2• 4 years ago

I'd argue this is actually great. It's extremely unlikely that type-C connectors would charge from anything other than the in-built charging standard (if for no other reason than physical compatibility) but all the extra pins make it extremely flexible. The Lightning pins can just be routed out of the USB-C connector in a compliant way via alt-mode.

markus92• 4 years ago

USB-PD is mandated in this directive! The EU press release specifically states any device will be able to charge at the same speed if cable/charger support it. See https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220930IP...

crote7• 4 years ago

They do mandate USB PD, actually!

The law [0] reads:

In so far as they are capable of being recharged by means of wired charging at voltages higher than 5 Volts, currents higher than 3 Amperes or powers higher than 15 Watts, the categories or classes of radio equipment referred to in point 1 of this Part shall:
3.1. incorporate the USB Power Delivery, as described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-2:2021 “Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-2: Common components - USB Power Delivery specification”;
3.2. ensure that any additional charging protocol allows for the full functionality of the USB Power Delivery referred to in point 3.1., irrespective of the charging device used.

As to devices supplying less than 15 Watts: the 5.1k resistors are already mandatory in the USB-C connector spec.

[0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2022-0338... , page 35

codexb• 4 years ago

There's nothing wise or moral about this decision.

Mandating a technology standard, purely for personal preference and convenience reasons -- not for reasons related to safety, or pollution, or security -- especially for things that change as fast as phones, is one of the most short-sighted and naive things any government could do.

There's a long history of Apple using proprietary connectors to achieve performance specifications above what the currently available standardized connectors could provide. Hell, in all likelihood, Apple is likely to ditch a charging connection altogether in favor of wireless charging in the near future. The EU is mandating technological stagnation. They will always be behind the market.

arcticbull2• 4 years ago

Apple hasn't changed the 'fast-changing' lightning connector since 2012, and USB-A lasted from 1996 to, well, present. USB-C came out in 2014 and is likely going to outlive us both. Connectors simply don't change that fast, and I'm not sure why people think they do.

I think even the EU can regulate on that kind of schedule.

Jtsummers3• 4 years ago

There's a long history of Apple using proprietary connectors to achieve performance specifications above what the currently available standardized connectors could provide.

Lightning was good when it came out (compared to the various micro-USB options), but it's not held up. Even Apple knows this and they've moved away from it on their iPads.

kristiandupont• 4 years ago

purely for personal preference and convenience reasons

Those are not the reasons.

wongarsu2• 4 years ago

It gets kind of lost in the summary, but only devices that are rechargeable via a wired cable have to be chargable via USB-C. So going fully wireless is perfectly legal. It's also perfectly legal to offer other charging ports in addition to USB-C, though that's less likely to happen in phones.

And while this regulation puts some limitations on innovation in connectors, Thunderbolt shows that there is lots of room to innovate within the USB-C format (in a way that's compatible to normal USB).

Arkhaine_kupo• 4 years ago

There's nothing wise

There is, for example the fact that the standard is set by comittee means large players have more say but cannot dictate the market. This allows innovation that doesn't benefit one party.

purely for personal preference and convenience reasons

Not the reason behind the move

not for reasons related to safety, or pollution, or security

Those are some of the benefits but not all

especially for things that change as fast as phones

Connectors are standards, plus phones do not change that often, they get marginally better but most of them have looked largely the same for a decade.

There's a long history of Apple using proprietary connectors to achieve performance specifications above what the currently available standardized connectors could provide

Previously there was also a long history of interoperability between Apple designs that no longer exists. And before that there was a long history of Apple being a tiny company constantly on the verge of bankruptcy. Long history is a pretty short time nowadays.

Apple is likely to ditch a charging connection altogether in favor of wireless charging in the near future.

I cannot wait to have the slowest charging phone on the market as a selling point.

he EU is mandating technological stagnation.

The EU mandating GDPR has increased security protection on data around the globe, and decreased bloatware. A large player like europe setting a standard means that companies follow that legislation to not have 2 products one for Europe and one outside.

kelnos6• 4 years ago

There's a long history of Apple using proprietary connectors to achieve performance specifications above...

Oh please, Apple has barely improved Lightning since its introduction a decade ago (2012!). Yes, back then, it was better than what was available, but the industry has moved on, and Apple has stagnated.

Hell, in all likelihood, Apple is likely to ditch a charging connection altogether in favor of wireless charging in the near future.

Unlikely. For one thing, wireless charging is still much slower than what you can get with a cable, and for another, users will not tolerate needing to lug around a charging pad (with its own cable), or hope that someone nearby has one. Yes, I know similar things about tolerance were said about the removal of headphone jacks, but I don't think this is quite the same situation.

The EU is mandating technological stagnation. They will always be behind the market.

I haven't read the text of the law, but I would hope that it's flexible enough to allow for embracing improvements to technology.

But even if that process is slow, I don't think that's a bad thing. Fast-changing technology generally does not really help users (it can, but I think more often it does not). Yes, benefits can be realized over time, but these sorts of changes create confusion and waste if not done well. I really don't care if Apple wants to put a new connector on iPhones, but it takes them 3 years instead of 1 year to do it because of legal/regulatory issues.

Mandating a technology standard, purely for personal preference and convenience reasons -- not for reasons related to safety, or pollution, or security

Pollution is* a concern here, though I agree that's probably not the primary reason this law was drafted. I'm with you on the general discomfort around regulations targeted toward preference/convenience. But I think it's a little unfair to call it "personal preference". Lighting is inferior to USB-C in almost every way (the only advantage Lightning has is that it's slightly smaller, but not to a degree that really matters). Apple continues to use Lightning out of stubbornness and NIH syndrome, and that hurts consumers overall.

But consider all the places that have two cables. I've seen dual-cable setups in Lyft/Uber vehicles, and at friendly coffee shops and stuff like that (hell, I still see a few places that additionally have micro-USB cables). What a huge waste of material! And yeah, you can buy single cables that have multiple "heads" on them, but I very rarely see those in the wild. If there was actually a good technical reason why we have this split, then sure,

especially for things that change as fast as phones

I don't think that's really true anymore. Most smartphones are basically the same as they were 5 years ago. Incrementally better camera hardware, incrementally better display technology, more RAM, faster processors, more storage. But I see very little change year to year. Maybe there will be some big new changes coming soon, but I don't see any evidence of that.

is one of the most short-sighted and naive things any government could do.*

Heh, I think you underestimate government capacity for short-sightedness. This particular thing seems pretty middling and mediocre to me on that scale.

aaaaaaaaaaab2• 4 years ago

Hell, in all likelihood, Apple is likely to ditch a charging connection altogether in favor of wireless charging in the near future.

Lol. Literally not possible.

henvic2• 4 years ago

The EU is mandating technological stagnation. They will always be behind the market.

Well said!

franczesko• 4 years ago

EU is doing pretty much what Apple does all the time - forcing standards.

sacrosancty• 4 years ago

Not a fan of metric screw threads? Mandates were needed in some countries to change from imperial to metric because the market can't make such a non-incremental move on its own even if it's good for everyone.

rlt• 4 years ago

I'd like to see Apple remove the port completely and rely on wireless charging and communication, only in the EU, just to spite the EU.

brokenmachine2• 4 years ago

in favor of wireless charging

So, force people to have more stuff and use the less power efficent option. As well as the glued-in non-replaceable batteries that were such a wonderful futuristic idea before.

Thank the flying spaghetti monster that the EU is "behind the market", because the market is consumer-hostile garbage.

birksherty2• 4 years ago

It's not for all that reason. But to make companies follow standard. So it's a great decision.

These companies have been doing what they want for far too long like removing headphone jack, removable battery etc.

outworlder• 4 years ago

especially for things that change as fast as phones

USB-C is forward looking. It will be quite a while before it will no longer be useful.

mgraczyk3• 4 years ago

Serious question, why is is it a problem to put a tiny cable in a landfill? The amount they leach is essentially zero. The EU would have done more for the environment by spending $20k cleaning up an extra few car batteries. This is so obviously pandering and protectionism and it's surprising to me people believe the "e-waste" justification.

Seriously, is there an accounting of the environmental damage caused by cell phone cables (not power converters)? Everything I've seen points to the damage being substantially less globally than a single digit number of cars or batteries.

crote7• 4 years ago

The problem is that it is a lot of tiny cables, and a lot of chargers with them.

Additionally, it also protects the consumer by preventing companies from locking consumers into buying device-specific chargers at greatly inflated prices. It might even become common for devices to come without chargers: why have 10 chargers lying around when all your devices use the same charging connector?

minimaul2• 4 years ago

"the regular charging cable"

This is the problem I have with this choice. USB-C isn't one cable. It's a big variety of poorly-labelled possible cables, complying with a ton of different standards.

USB-C can be just USB2.0 capable, 3.1 Gen1, 3.1 Gen2, Thunderbolt 3 capable, etc. Some cables can carry 3A. Some 5A.

When your 'universal' charging cable doesn't provide fast charging, is it because your charger doesn't provide the right voltages/wattage? Is it a broken USB-PD implementation (eg the Nintendo Switch)? is it that the cable is underspecced (and a lot of USB-C cables on the market don't actually meet the spec)?

I think the intention is good but USB-C carries so much complexity that I don't think this helps consumers as much as everyone is making out.

jacobr1• 4 years ago

USB-A had a similar problem (but on a much smaller scale). There also was heterogeneity in build quality. But over time features and quality converged. I think we should expect something similar here.

Rebelgecko2• 4 years ago

The new labeling requirements will hopefully help with that

Terretta4• 4 years ago

e-waste

The irony of, e.g., Brazil, passing laws that Apple can't leave the cable and charger out of the box.

Meanwhile, who with a current phone uses a cable to charge any more? Even before MagSafe the wireless is far more convenient, now with MagSafe and a zillion brands of stands that do phone + watch + AirPods all wireless, not to mention even MagSafe for cars that charge and don't drop the phone on bad roads, cables are redundant. And while they won't all do the same top speed, in general the coasters charge both Android and iPhone happily.

But, speaking of docks, that's the real issue -- lightning works beautifully when docking a phone into a stereo or alarm clock or etc, USB-C not so much. Basically, on lightning if the tab breaks you get a new cheap cable, on USB-C if the tab breaks, you need a new dock.

kelnos6• 4 years ago

Raises hand. I don't have an iPhone, but I find wireless charging to just be kinda annoying. The only place I use it is in my car, which has a built-in charging pad, with good mechanical design that keeps the phone from moving around (and possibly losing the wireless charging "connection"). Otherwise, everywhere else, I'm always wired when I charge, and I kinda don't care about wireless charging.

But, speaking of docks, that's the real issue -- lightning works beautifully when docking a phone into a stereo or alarm clock or etc, USB-C not so much.

I mean, there are still docks out there that have the old 30-pin Apple iPod/iPhone/iPad connector (not many; I think I saw one in an old hotel last year, but that's it). If USB-C is the primary connector used, then that's what dock manufacturers will use. And, bonus, manufacturers that actually support more than one connector can eventually drop Lightning as an option, and save on costs.

Basically, on lightning if the tab breaks you get a new cheap cable, on USB-C if the tab breaks, you need a new dock.

Er, what? If the tab in a dock breaks, you need to get a new dock with either connector. The Lighting connector tab is just as breakable (if not more so, as it's thinner) than a USB-C plug, and if the one in your dock breaks, you're just as out of luck.

philihp• 4 years ago

who with a current phone uses a cable to charge any more?

I think you may be living in a bubble.

3836293648• 4 years ago

You're living in a bubble. Cable based charging is still far more common than wireless. There are still people who refuse to use bluetooth headphones. I am not carrying around another device that requires charging

spookthesunset• 4 years ago

Going wireless charging only is probably not gonna happen anytime soon. Wireless charging is significantly less efficient than wired. The difference might not matter much if you are using power from the wall*, but if you are charging off a battery bank you want as much efficiency as you can--you don't want to waste power!

*(being less efficient while charging from wall might not matter to you as an individual but consider if everybody was charging with such an inefficient means... that might add up to a lot of waste)

CharlesW2• 4 years ago

The difference might not matter much if you are using power from the wall, but if you are charging off a battery bank you want as much efficiency as you can--you don't want to waste power!

Wireless power banks are already a thing, and they're great because you don't have to mess around with cables. For those of you not using iPhones, they support standard Qi charging as well as faster and more efficient MagSafe charging.

I care about wireless charging efficiency as much as I care about plug-in USB charging efficiency, which is not a lot. If wireless charging is half as efficient, it's costing me a couple bucks extra per year.

cm2187• 4 years ago

tbh it's kind of ridiculous that I need a different dongle for my ipad and my iphone. I know that Apples makes money selling dongles, but that's a crap UX.

assetlabel• 4 years ago

Technology is still changing fairly rapidly. Regulation is not.

There will come a time when flashy new tech that everyone is drooling over will not be available in the EU due to this law.

alpaca128• 4 years ago

This whole discussion is only a thing because Apple's tech isn't changing rapidly enough for regulation, the exact opposite of your scenario. Also good luck producing a functioning smartphone that's too thin for the USB-C connector before the EU can react (the new iPhone 14 has exactly 3 times the thickness, so it'll take a while).

The much more realistic reason for a new phone not being released here is the new proposal to enforce 5 years of replacement parts for all phones among other things.

dwaite3• 4 years ago

It is also ironic how Apple markets heavily on how you can take great RAW photos or videos but somehow you have to use lightning USB2 speeds to transfer them. Lightning is barely smaller than USB-C, and clearly my iPhone thickness will not change if it switches to USB-C.

There is nothing about a USB-C cable or port that mandates SuperSpeed (err, 5GB or higher) data transfer rates. Most compliant charging cables are still Hi-Speed (480 mbps), and capped at 30W (higher requires an active component in the cable).

Similarly, there is nothing about Lightning that restricts the transfer speed to Hi-Speed. There were iPad Pro models with lightning that supported a USB 3 adapter, which had (I believe) 5 Gbps transfer speed. However, the decision was made to switch the subsequent generations of Pro models to USB-C, leaving that part as a bit of a curiosity.

I suspect because of the sheer volume of lightning cables out there, Apple simply doesn't want to cause confusion by creating 'tiers' of certified cables that have the same set of plugs on the ends and which thus look identical, but which have different properties. If only the USB-IF considered such things.

If we want to really be more environmentally friendly, wouldn't it make more sense to have no cable at all with the devices we buy, force the sellers to clearly tell the consumers about it and offer the cable on the side only if needed?

One could hope! This should also shrink the packaging down further, having a measurable cost reduction on shipping as well as packaging waste.

I go through a lot of phones, but have relatives who are on a 3-4 year upgrade cycle. Thus, I've been able to find good homes for any excess USB-C to lightning cables (and they've been ecstatic when I've given them powerful multi-port USB-C chargers as gifts as well).

Hopefully we'll see countries continue to change their laws so that you don't need to bundle cables, chargers and/or headsets with purchases. France I believe finally changed their laws requiring a bundled headset, and it went into effect this year.

I would also add that all lightning cables won't suddenly go to the landfill in 2024. Many people will keep their iPhones/AirPods for a while after that date. Many would probably donate their old lightning cables to whoever needs them

I'd expect the vast majority to be trashed by 2029, along with the majority of USB-A chargers. I've had support issues where family has thought their devices had bad software or failing batteries, but it turns out they had accidentally switched to some cheap, low wattage USB-A charger.

I somewhat expect the wide array of differences between USB-A, USB-C power delivery support, and active vs passive cables will mean that devices may start to give troubleshooting guidance for slow charging. At this point, I would expect quite a few USB-A chargers and cabling to go to the trash.

blue_light_man6• 4 years ago

Perfect example of why Brexit makes sense.

A bunch of politicians thinking they know what is best for consumers across dozens of countries better than the companies operating in the free market.

acallaghan• 4 years ago

A bunch of politicians

*elected* politicians is the key. The member states voted them in, they have a democratic mandate. No one running these companies have anywhere near the same level of responsibility to people as someone that's actually elected.

This is just another regulation on that free market, decided for by democratically elected people and not by the companies choosing not to be regulated.

aaomidi• 4 years ago

I thought this was done?

slac• 4 years ago

The regulation around adopting GSM as a standard for mobile networks was very positive for Europe. It can be good at times.

bamboozled• 4 years ago

I needed a new iPhone desperately as my old one was screwed. I was really disappointed to find the new iPhone lacking USB-C. So glad about this.

blue_light_man6• 4 years ago

What next EU? New law to mandate using space over tabs? How do I send my suggestions?

bvoq• 4 years ago

But i want to keep my magsafe charger for macbooks. USB-C is not good for laptops in case you accidentally run into the cable.

heavenlyblue• 4 years ago

What is going to happen to devices like diving computers/Apple Watch Ultra that require a charger that is magnetic to ensure they are waterproof?

timbit4210• 4 years ago

This question is answered in other comments.

AndroidKitKat• 4 years ago

I read the law and perhaps I misunderstood it, but I'm curious if there is a grey area with regards to pogo pin like connectors, seen as the MagSafe connectors on Apple's MacBooks or the ones on the back of modern iPads / the ones on the side of my old Galaxy Nexus.

Do those count as wired or wireless charging? To me, that's the only tricky part. My bet is that it would count as "wired" (and thus be illegal in the EU).

My knee-jerk reaction to the law in general is "but why...", but after reading more and the comments in this thread, I think this is a major win.

PeterStuer• 4 years ago

Can Apple under these rules still ID the charger and refuse or downgrade the loading process if a 'non-genuine up-to-date model version' charger is failed to be detected?

NDizzle• 4 years ago

Way, way too much government.

I don't understand why people are cheering for this. Why is a government body telling companies what kind of power adapter to use?!

bottlepalm• 4 years ago

I’m worried about that little wafer in the usb-c port breaking.

blue_light_man6• 4 years ago

So looks like EU knows USB-C is the best port for the citizens. Following the logic, EU should also know what the best charger, screen, CPU, GPU, drivers etc for the phone is since EU is represented by the people.

Clearly, there should be also no reason why EU should not know what is the best way to source these items and manufacture it as well since EU is represented by the people.

So why stop at the USB-C regulation?

Why can't EU manufacturer the phone as well? How do I sign a petition for this?

tuxone• 4 years ago

Ok fine, now I can’t wait for the EU to ban USB-C crapphones that people keep buy and trash every second year.

salzig• 4 years ago

Ok, I really like to have one connector for everything, and USB-C is quite dominant.

But at least for me, USB-C feels way more sensitive/fragile compared to Lightning.

While Plugging-in the USB-C Cable into my steam-deck i’m a bit afraid to break the port. Ramming in a Lightning Cable to any matching device doesn’t give me that feel.

Besides the obvious benefit of a single connector, do you really think USB-C is a good connector for phones/portables?

iLoveOncall• 4 years ago

So Apple is going wireless charging only in 2024, did I get that right?

frogpelt• 4 years ago

Can Apple comply with this by simply including an adapter in the box?

hcurtiss• 4 years ago

Isn't the reason we're comfortable with mandating USB-C the fact that it's been implemented successfully in so many devices already? How's that supposed to work next time around? Will politicians or bureaucrats pick the next standard in a vacuum of real-world implementation/testing? I'm skeptical they'll do that well.

rkagerer• 4 years ago

...its requirements will start to apply to new devices after 24 months

I can't help but feel like USB-C may be superceded by something better by then.

taylorlapeyre• 4 years ago

What happens when USB-D comes out? Will legislation decide if the port is acceptable for consumers?

unity10012• 4 years ago

All these different types of connectors had little to do with innovation than they had to do with companies trying to force you to buy their own chargers and peripherals. Its a good thing that the Eu is forcing them to adopt a standard.

JacobiX2• 4 years ago

Hope that they will extend this regulation to not just mobile phones, tablets and cameras but also to electric razors, hair care appliances, toothbrushes, home appliances, etc ... considering that many big EU corporations manufacture those products, maybe the likelihood is low ?

jiveturkey2• 4 years ago

Why can't apple just include a lightning:usbc (m:f) dongle in the box?

kreeben• 4 years ago

This "Europe is morally superior to USA" vs "the USA is technically superior to Europe" dispute needs to stop. It's making this forum suck. Can't we do better?

ianbooker• 4 years ago

For the younger: EU regulation is the sole reason why most devices charge by USB nowadays. In the age before the smartphone, every company would ship their own charging bricks with fixed cables and connectors. I still have a drawer full of that stuff...

datavirtue3• 4 years ago

Backward and weird.

jedberg• 4 years ago

What happens when a better standard comes around? Will we be stuck with USB-C for the foreseeable future until they EU changes their laws again?

I am glad that Apple will finally come around, even if by force, but I worry how much this could stifle innovation.

sylware• 4 years ago

EU starts slowy to regulate tech.

I am waiting for the web... critical sites working with noscript/basic (x)html browsers, and not requiring those grotesquely and massively complex and huge big tech browsers with their similar SDK.

They did something for "whatsapp", but it seems it does not handle account creation.

theshrike795• 4 years ago

This will also affect Android manufacturers, the ones with the Super Special Speedy Charging, that only works on their specific charger.

The law forces them to support the USB-PD standard, which they don't at the moment.

ab_testing• 4 years ago

Breaking News: iPhone 2023 gets rid of charging port

babypuncher• 4 years ago

Where was this law 20 years ago when every device had a different proprietary connector?

wpdev_63• 4 years ago

Is really that big of a deal that we have two types of connectors for cellphones sold today?

Why does EU think it's so important to have USB-C on iphone that they must pass laws dictating apple's business strategy?

It feels the EU is overreaching here, by alot. There are alot of other e-waste that's much worst than iphone cables and they serve as a solid competitor to the usb-c clusterf%^$ standards that's going on right now.

Can't be passing consumer laws imo to make things slightly more convenient for the end user.

klysm• 4 years ago

The real problem is apple is big enough for this to be required in the first place.

phendrenad23• 4 years ago

USB-C is inferior to lightning in every way, except for compatibility (which very few people care about) and the environmental impact (which is tiny).

The EU really fucked this up bad.

Luckily, I suspect that Apple will continue selling their highest-end phones with the superior lightning connector as an option.

guilhas• 4 years ago

Lawl, 2024 Android phones adopt USB-D.5

alberth• 4 years ago

iPhone 16 (2025)?

Am I understanding this correctly that the first required iPhone to be updated would be the iPhone 16 (2025), given that next years iPhone will most likely be released before this effective date.

muaytimbo• 4 years ago

I wonder what product decisions the EU will make for Apple next. Maybe Tim Cook should just hire them. Imagine that first conversation:

[Apple Employee]: What other great product ideas do you have for Apple? [Legislator]: BRING BACK MY HEADPHONE JACK YOU FREE MARKET BULLY!

ur-whale• 4 years ago

Two large and despicable organizations fighting one another, what's not to like?

nashashmi2• 4 years ago

So basically if tomorrow I create a USB-D spec, this law will prevent adoption? What a stupid law! Why did not they instead create a law that prohibits non-standard connectors license-only connectors? That also creates roadblocks to innovation (of proprietary stuff), sure! But it does not kill innovation outright.

nashashmi2• 4 years ago

I'm feeling sulked so strongly right now.

California did something similarly stupid in 1990s. They mandated the selling of EVs. Car makers asked the courts to limit the law "in case no one wanted them." Then car makers tried to prove no one wanted EVs and then tried to convince everyone against buying the very EV they were making!

adventured• 4 years ago

HN: a corporation with a monopoly dictating standards is bad

Also HN: government bureaucrats dictating standards in a monopolistic manner is good

Also HN: choice good

Also HN: the government must protect us from choice

Yeah, sure. This is just psychotic nanny state behavior. Millions of Europeans cried out in unison: protect me from myself, I can't make decisions on my own, I'm not well enough informed to know what to do!

dzikimarian2• 4 years ago

HN: a corporation with a monopoly dictating standards is bad

Typically on HN it's "Corporation enforcing closed standards is bad. Unless it's Apple. They for sure do this for innovation".

I've seen people saying that iMessage is closed for "security", where there are literally emails from Apple execs denying that. Now tons of people state that USB 2.0 molded into different plastic was vastly superior to USB-C.

ramesh31• 4 years ago

This is painfully stupid. Nothing could illustrate why Europe lags behind in technology better than this.

cassepipe• 4 years ago

A really good thing for the planet would be to force manufacturers to only produce repairable phones with purely open source components. Sure it's not good for business neither for innovation but who cares? The climate is a mess and we have produced enough phones already. You have a computer in your picket that take photo and you can communicate with anybody. What else could you possibly need in the future ? I'll tell you what, a climate that is not trying to kill you.

emkoemko• 4 years ago

does this mean Apple will finally have fast transfer speeds that Android phones have had for at least 5+ years? or will they still give you USB2 speeds over USB C?

omegacharlie• 4 years ago

What is preventing Apple (could be considered the subtle target of the legislation) from weaseling out and attempting compliance by using adapters for USB-C?

10g1k• 4 years ago

How to make anything worse: add bureaucrats.

dfee• 4 years ago

The discussion is about EU forcing Apple to play ball. The discussion should be about how the EU just mandated a monopoly for the USB-IF. For Apple detractors, this is a hollow victory.

endisneigh• 4 years ago

I'm genuinely interested in what people would think if the EU mandated that all new code must be written in a particular programming language.

harywilke• 4 years ago

https://www.androidauthority.com/state-of-usb-c-870996/ "Editor’s note: This is an updated version of an article published in 2018, 2019, and 2020." USB-C is a mess. It's not getting better over time. If i buy a cable, will it work? Usually, sometimes, maybe.

adam_arthur2• 4 years ago

Amazing to witness all the Apple apologists coming out to defend the lightning cable, which is both technologically inferior to USB-C, and proprietary.

Apple has reached sufficient scale where their anti-competitive practices can be hugely detrimental to society... we don't need regulation if they would opt into consumer friendly practices to begin with.

Obviously any regulation needs to be implemented in such a way to avoid stifling innovation. Connectors have been pretty much standardized without the need for any regulation, barring Apple. Is there any logical justification for their design choice?

CharlesW2• 4 years ago

This isn't an "anti-competitive" thing. (1) Lightning was introduced a decade ago when USB-C was just a dream, and (2) Lightning works.

Connectors have been pretty much standardized without the need for any regulation, barring Apple.

In reality, Apple took a leading role in USB-C adoption starting with 2015's MacBook Pro. Do you really think Apple wasn't going to adopt USB-C everywhere anyway?

The cool thing is that this is an absolute P.R. coup for Apple. Apple now gets to go all-USB-C, and can redirect blame for the unimaginable amount of electronic waste that this will create to the EU.

adam_arthur2• 4 years ago

Apple could have easily adopted USB-C on the iphone, just as they did on many of their other devices years and years ago.

The fact that they didn’t strongly implies they didn’t want to give up the revenue from their proprietary connector. Because there is no technical reason not to use it.

Cables being sold for a dead protocol are the real waste. There is far less waste in the long run having all devices use the same connector. There’s not even an argument otherwise

phendrenad23• 4 years ago

technologically inferior to USB-C

How so?

palata5• 4 years ago

Would someone happen to know what that means for MFi/accessories? Hint: Apple themselves don't seem to be aware that USB-C does not have an MFi program.

pagthem• 4 years ago

This is good. Less fumbling around with wrong cables.

e-clinton• 4 years ago

When they first introduced this regulation 10 years ago, micro-usb was the standard. This is a bad idea for obvious reasons.

fennecfoxy4• 4 years ago

Doesn't matter anyway, Apple's paid the fines and whatnot while delaying this move until they believe they're ready to go full wireless for charging/data transfer, etc.

Maybe they'll stick C in a couple more devices, maybe one iPhone gen, but in all likelihood I'd say they're gonna go portless - something I wish other manufacturers had just done already, but Apple will tout it as a technologically advanced, "bold" move or something.

bpmayer• 4 years ago

Soon they will be irrelevant anyway.

rs999gti2• 4 years ago

Apple has a few choices

1. Stop selling in the EU, but this is unlikely due to it being 20% of their market

2. Make a new model of iphone for the world with USBC

3. Add a premium to EU market phones to pay for the regulations

I'd like to see 2 and 3 implemented with 3 making the iPhone cost 1.5x or more in the EU

LeanderK2• 4 years ago

nobody would buy such an expensive iPhone. I bet they will just switch to usb-c, like they did with the iPad.

EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

Related Stories