Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/06/apple-terminates-epic-games-developer-account-calling-it-a-threat-to-the-ios-ecosystem/

by madtrax • 2 years ago

970 990 2 years ago

techcrunch.com

WolfCop• 2 years ago

Apple said one of the reasons they terminated our developer account only a few weeks after approving it was because we publicly criticized their proposed DMA compliance plan.

andersa12• 2 years ago

Not a valid reason to terminate it.

bunbun69• 2 years ago

Are you believing a “trust me bro” comment?

retskrad• 2 years ago

Why are investors seemingly blind to the fact that Apple is fighting tooth and nail to protect their App Store revenue (while looking like jackasses in the court of public opinion and pissing off regulators and their relationship with developers) because if the App Store money in their pocket dries up, all hell breaks loose because all of their hardware products are no longer growing. The stock will crash and the executive team will be in trouble.

NBJack2• 2 years ago

Pretty sure the savvy investors know this. But why would they kill the golden goose?

observationist• 2 years ago

A walled garden is difficult and expensive to maintain. In Apple's case, it also requires a constant battle against the public interest, because they've carved out various niches in domains that intrude on interoperability, consumer rights, privacy, censorship, surveillance, tax evasion, child slavery, and so on. If they cede ground, they lose money, so they develop and execute strategies that minimize or mitigate loss in conjunction with maximizing gain.

Apple has no principles or ethics or morals to which it is bound; it's governed by an optimization algorithm that pits the profit incentive against the constraints of resources, legislation, and their public image.

Apple's only as effective as the humans who execute their assigned roles within the overall algorithm, so the organization is subject to the usual human weaknesses and foibles.

Pride. Arrogance. Bullheadedness. Complacency.

If these weaknesses infect the culture, spreading across many roles, then many things can degrade and spin out of control. Apple is just as mortal and vulnerable as MySpace, Yahoo, Sears, Blockbuster, or any other big company or institution.

Without the advantages afforded by the unsavory, unethical, and unprincipled aspects of their business, Apple might not be able to maintain their walled garden effectively. Apple's particular variety of golden goose may not continue to be compatible with the markets in which it currently dominates, since much of the regulation, litigation, and legislation will focus on Apple's effects on the world.

Lots of things could happen outside their control that would kill the golden goose. Lots more things could happen if they fall prey to human failure modes.

ajross4• 2 years ago

This is indeed an analysis that we don't see often enough. Apple is viewed as a "tech company" and tech companies are all about innovation and growth. And their stocks are priced accordingly. But, Apple is actually extremely conservative with product rollouts and new markets (c.f. having essentially missed the boat on AI). They make phones and sell phone apps. They do a few other things, but at the end of the day their balance sheet says "Apple sells phones".

And the phone market is saturated now. Everyone's got one. They keep getting better and people keep them longer. And Apple already has a 50% share of units sold, and a much higher proportion of total revenue. This market is tapped out. It's not going to grow.

Really the mess happening in Europe (mostly in Europe anyway) is best seen as a desperate struggle to push the growth reckoning far enough out for them to roll out a new successful product. They're rent seeking just to keep the balance sheet clean, but it won't work forever.

Really this happens to all big tech companies. Eventually the original product set starts to commoditize and there's nothing left to fill the void.

carlosjobim2• 2 years ago

As long as new people are growing up, they're going to need their own phones, so there will always be a market. The same of course with many other consumer goods.

amluto• 2 years ago

c.f. having essentially missed the boat on AI

What boat? Not being first to market with a fancy commercial-grade model and charging $20/mo for consumer-style access (a la OpenAI)? Not having a cloud offering (MS, etc)? Not having a fancy in-your-pocket AI (like… no one? Siri is behind the times, and a better Siri would be great, but IMO the issue isn’t so much the quality of the language model but that Siri is oddly limited in what it can interact with).

I agree that Apple hasn’t been amazingly innovative in the last few years, but being off the AI hype boat seems off the mark.

bevekspldnw5• 2 years ago

I think the cracks will start to show the longer big apps don’t come to Vision Pro. Apple has spent the last decade pissing off developers and partners, and just when they need them the most - during the fragile time of getting an entire new platform off the ground - they are doubling down on being assholes.

Every single review I’ve seen mentions that Netflix and YouTube aren’t on Vision Pro. One of the biggest applications of VR is gaming and they’re going nuclear with Epic instead of developing a great partnership to bring high value gaming to Vision Pro. Hubris before the fall.

graphe• 2 years ago

From it's issues I bet you it's infighting from a group trying to kill the vision pro from apple.

causal4• 2 years ago

Apple themselves seem to forget that a huge selling point for the iPhone/iPod Touch was video games. Seeing those bright flashy games rendering on such a beautiful screen in the palm of your hand- it blew everything else out of the water.

Social media eventually took over as the killer apps, but for a while it was Angry Birds and Fruit Ninja on everyone's phone.

DinaCoder99• 2 years ago

Blind? I assumed that the monopoly on iphone app distribution (and the corresponding growth in fee revenue) was why the stock has been so high recently.

bustling-noose2• 2 years ago

The investors aren't interested in Apple selling more phones each year than previous. The investors are interested in people using the iPhone as a yearly or bi yearly upgrade cycle product in their life and giving Apple money without much bother and accepting it as a part of culture, especially American.

I wouldn't have thought India, a country that is so price sensitive, would be a place you find so many iPhones. But Indians love what America does and follow them blindly.

The iPhone might not be the next big thing, but for most invested in the cloud and app ecosystem, the choice they have to make is whether you upgrade this year or next. It's like Visa or Mastercard. You can cry all you want about high transaction fees. America is still going to keep using it and give them money.

Investors are loving this trend. Starbucks, Visa, Mastercard, Nike, American Express, Bank of America, Coca Cola and what not. Investors love companies that become part of the culture and despite their horrifying practices, people seem to still go back to them.

pimterry• 2 years ago

I wouldn't have thought India, a country that is so price sensitive, would be a place you find so many iPhones. But Indians love what America does and follow them blindly.

This is extremely wrong.

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/india suggests Android has 95%+ market share in India (and largely unchanged for years).

https://www.statista.com/chart/22702/andoid-ios-market-share... lists India as one of the least iPhone-using countries in the world.

iPhone's are more than 3x more popular across Africa, South America and the rest of Asia than they are in India (https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/africa, https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/south-amer..., https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/asia).

sidewndr464• 2 years ago

This seems like a publicity stunt to me. No one would rationally expect Epic to have a developer account with Apple. The terms allow them to remove you for any reason and not disclose it.

disgruntledphd23• 2 years ago

Given the DMA, Apple are required to allow people to develop other App Stores. If they can kick off anyone who decides to do that, then the law is entirely pointless (and the EU commission are likely to be upset).

sidewndr464• 2 years ago

Sure, they are required to allow people to develop other App Stores.

They can also add any number of other policies which you probably run afoul of several times a day. Then terminate you for that. You can still develop your app store, you just can't break all the rules to develop your app store.

sokoloff• 2 years ago

No one would rationally expect Epic to have a developer account with Apple.

Really? I would 100% expect most any large company selling anything into the computing or computing-adjacent space to have an Apple dev account and a Play Store account.

My supermarket chain has an Apple dev account. Target has an Apple dev account. (Both presumably have Play Store accounts as well.) If those brick-and-mortar companies can manage to reach their customers that way, it was more surprising to me that Epic didn't have one previously than the converse.

sidewndr464• 2 years ago

Is Target actively hostile to the platform provider they have dev accounts with?

nixgeek• 2 years ago

I doubt your supermarket chain has done things which rise to Phil Schiller responding to Epic with —

We welcome all developers to the Developer Program so long as they follow the rules. Those rules, including the DPLA and the App Store Review Guidelines, are intended to protect the integrity of the ecosystem, developers large and small, and - most importantly-users. Accordingly, developers who are unable or unwilling to keep their promises can't continue to participate in the Developer Program.
In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them. For example, you testified that Epic Games, Inc. entered into the Developer Program with full understanding of its terms, and then chose to intentionally breach the agreement with Apple. You also testified that Epic deliberately violated Apple's rules, to make a point and for financial gain. More recently, you have described our DMA compliance plan as "hot garbage," a "horror show," and a "devious new instance of Malicious Compliance." And you have complained about what you called "Junk Fees" and "Apple taxes."
Your colorful criticism of our DMA compliance plan, coupled with Epic's past practice of intentionally violating contractual provisions with which it disagrees, strongly suggest that Epic Sweden does not intend to follow the rules. Another intentional breach could threaten the integrity of the iOS platform, as well as the security and privacy of users.
You have stated that allowing enrollment of Epic Games Sweden in the Developer Program is "a good faith move by Apple." We invite you to provide us with written assurance that you are also acting in good faith, and that Epic Games Sweden will, despite your public actions and rhetoric, honor all of its commitments. In plain, unqualified terms, please tell us why we should trust Epic this time.

andersa12• 2 years ago

Their terms are not relevant, Apple has no authority over the DMA.

sidewndr464• 2 years ago

so if I set up my own app store with nothing but apps designed to scam people, Apple has to allow me to do it?

Fin_Code• 2 years ago

Sounds like they violated a non disparagement clause and signaled they will not adhere to policy. All they had to do is keep quiet and launch to minimize their liability.

Guess they will need to fight in the EU to see if they can claw back.

jefftk• 2 years ago

Where are you seeing a non disparagement clause?

andersa12• 2 years ago

A non-disparagement clause is not valid under the DMA.

r00fus• 2 years ago

Perhaps Apple needs to separate geographies in its account setup. Let Epic have the EU account, but disable them everywhere else.

Because in the US/Asia, Epic has no DMA protections.

otterley• 2 years ago

Do you have a legal citation for this assertion?

BearOso3• 2 years ago

There's no chance the DMA includes a non disparagement clause. That's totally against free speech.

Kluggy• 2 years ago

I don’t understand how free speech relates to the DMA?

VWWHFSfQ• 2 years ago

Free speech has nothing to do with any of this

SteveNuts3• 2 years ago

"Free speech" is all about the government not persecuting an individual for something they say.

It offers no protection in a case like this between two non-government entities.

lapcat7• 2 years ago

Sounds like they violated a non disparagement clause

Where do you get this? No third-party developer is under such legal obligation.

apozem• 2 years ago

Apple's lawyer states no such thing, only that they have the right to revoke anyone's developer account for any time and for any reason. They believe Epic will violate their rules in the future and affect iOS users' privacy and safety, so they banned them.

I know this is the internet, and no one actually reads the linked articles, but I really wish people would do so before weighing in. You did not need to make up a non-disparagement clause.

123yawaworht456• 2 years ago

safety

the past few years made me really fucking hate that word.

rvz• 2 years ago

Here we go again...

frankjr• 2 years ago

(...) the U.S. judgment expressly provides that "Apple has the contractual right to terminate (...)

Yeah good luck with that in an EU court.

ajaimk• 2 years ago

They got kicked out for willingly breaking the rules in the past. Not for criticizing Apple. Actions have consequences.

NBJack2• 2 years ago

From the article:

Apple said one of the reasons they terminated our developer account only a few weeks after approving it was because we publicly criticized their proposed DMA compliance plan. Apple cited this X post from this thread written by Tim Sweeney. Apple is retaliating against Epic for speaking out against Apple’s unfair and illegal practices, just as they’ve done to other developers time and time again.

lxgr7• 2 years ago

The difference is that Apple is now largely no longer in control of the rules, at least in the EU. It seems like they haven't come to terms with that yet.

Moldoteck• 2 years ago

so apple gave them green light _after_ breaking the rules and decided to go uno reverse after several weeks to red light the epic, because epic criticized apple, lol)

hizanberg• 2 years ago

If I had a Customer that spent years relentlessly complaining about my Company, I know I wouldn't want to have them as a Customer.

It does present an interesting question on whether a Company can be forced to have a bad actor as a Customer, I guess this will be decided in the lawsuits to come.

ajross4• 2 years ago

App vendors aren't customers. They don't pay Apple anything more than the license fees for Xcode. The app's users are the customers, and if you start throwing out the partners you lose customers. Now, sure, the calculus might change depending on your relationship with each partner, but you absolutely cant say that Epic doesn't bring revenue to Apple. They do.

ginko• 2 years ago

Epic isn't apple's customer. They just use their tools.

andersa12• 2 years ago

Your company is likely not considered a core platform service, so your analogy is not relevant.

_fat_santa• 2 years ago

The key difference I see in Apple's app store business is that it's a monopolistic marketplace model. If Apple allowed an alternative to the app store then this wouldn't be an issue. Take Microsoft and Windows as an example, they have the Microsoft store which operates as a marketplace with rules but they don't get the same scrutiny because there are alternatives. Don't like what MS is doing with their app store? Fine just release the binary yourself.

With Apple though, the bring it on themselves by having a monopolistic marketplace. Since they are the sole gatekeeper to getting apps on the iDevices, there is no alternative like there is in the MS ecosystem. Apple could end all scrutiny tomorrow if they allowed a way to install apps on iDevices that bypassed the app store and Epic would have no case.

askonomm2• 2 years ago

But as of iOS 17.4 they do allow alternative app stores in EU.

gopher_space3• 2 years ago

Don't like what MS is doing with their app store? Fine just release the binary yourself.

Whip up a small windows binary and send it to your mom. See if she can run it without any help from you. MS is doing the same thing from a different angle.

lxgr7• 2 years ago

Companies in quite a few industries have a duty to do business with you, with very few limitations. For example, in some countries/cities, taxis generally can't refuse transportation to you, assuming you're able to pay and not endangering the driver. Having publicly and repeatedly expressed a dislike for taxis, or even wearing a t-shirt saying "taxis in $city are an overpriced monopoly" would not be a valid reason to be refused transportation.

In the EU/under the DMA, Apple now very likely has a duty to transact even with app developers saying mean things about them. That's certainly a very new situation for Apple, but not an unprecedented one.

I'm not sure if throwing more hissy fits and breaking more of their playmates' toys is a good idea now that adults are in the room.

mckn1ght2• 2 years ago

Taxis in many cities operate under the authority of a government institution [0], so it makes more sense that they have a duty to do business with the public.

Whereas one can often experience waiting for a Lyft/Uber where drivers repeatedly decline service after initially accepting.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_medallion

Findeton7• 2 years ago

"taxis generally can't refuse transportation to you"

The fact that it happens says nothing about whether it's right or not. In my opinion it's wrong and immoral that taxis can't refuse to service you. But taxis are very regulated in many places. In fact, for example, Uber is illegal in Colombia. And still, despite their legal status, Uber is not only very used in Colombia, but it's also safer than getting a normal taxi.

kevingadd3• 2 years ago

Criticizing defects in a product or criticizing a vendor's misbehavior doesn't make you automatically a "bad actor". A healthy vendor/customer relationship involves having channels where this criticism can be exchanged without putting the vendor or the customer in a bad position, and the criticism results in a better product.

Instead, bug reports go into a black hole because Apple doesn't care, and they especially don't care about game developers, unless those game developers are running casino games or gacha games that bring in a billion dollars a year. Then Apple cares a lot - about 30%.

If a billion-dollar company is so thin-skinned that they can't handle having their policies criticized they're run by children.

Epic has historically brought in a lot of money for Apple, both directly - via titles like Infinity Blade and Fortnite - and indirectly - by enabling the developer ecosystem so more people can release titles on Apple platforms. In the past Epic helped promote new Apple product launches. Calling them a bad actor is ridiculous.

JumpCrisscross20• 2 years ago

Criticizing defects in a product or criticizing a vendor's misbehavior doesn't make you automatically a "bad actor"

Doing so publicly certainly does. I would terminate business with a client if they started airing out their issues about me on Twitter.

That said, I’m not Apple. At a certain size, you lose the right to reject bad actors.

wtallis2• 2 years ago

Epic is trying not to call attention to it, but in the emails they published from Apple, Epic's history of violating an agreement with Apple was cited as why Apple has reason to not trust Epic. That may not be sufficient justification under EU law, but it's unquestionable that Apple has more underlying their concerns than just Epic's recent public complaining.

misnome3• 2 years ago

Calling them a bad actor is ridiculous.

This is an absurd take. They very deliberately and publicly breached their agreement with apple, sued them when they got kicked out for it, and lost.

If that isn’t a textbook description of a bad actor then what the hell _would_ count for you?

archagon7• 2 years ago

If your company has a market segment captured, you should not have any right to do that, irrespective of your feelings.

the_mitsuhiko• 2 years ago

In Europe there is the concept of “Forced to contract”. You can be forced to accept a customer. Applies to many monopolies.

nottorp6• 2 years ago

Single payer health insurance, for example :)

eviks• 2 years ago

Why not? There will be more complaints because of your action

015a2• 2 years ago

Epic also doesn't want to be Apple's customer. No one would describe the relationship between Microsoft and Epic as "Epic being Microsoft's customer" because they distribute the Epic Games Store and Fortnite on Windows (Xbox console distribution notwithstanding; there it is more of a customer relationship).

Apple forces everyone who wants access to 50% of the mobile computing market into a customer-oriented relationship, and then complains when not everyone Thinks The Same as they do. Its disgusting behavior.

layer84• 2 years ago

The issue is that Epic doesn’t want to be Apple’s customer in the first place. They want to publish iOS apps. The fact that this requires them to be an Apple customer is the core problem.

Imagine if everyone wanting to publish a web app would have to be a customer of the respective browser vendors.

Everyone complains about Google and Mozilla and Safari and Edge. Luckily, that doesn’t prevent us from having our web apps running on those browsers.

lelandfe• 2 years ago

Publishing a Chrome browser extension more-or-less requires being a customer of the Chrome Web Store. There are plenty of other examples, folks tend to give Playstation/Xbox/Switch stores in these conversations as well.

swman• 2 years ago

Then they should just not publish for iOS lol.

Don’t like it? Don’t publish to it.

As a consumer I want and like the tight restrictions apple puts on the App Store.

It’s not like users can’t purchase stuff without paying the 30% premium added by developers to offset the apple tax. Just go to the website and buy there. And save the 30%.

My parents who are older use iPhone. They don’t have to wade through trash like android play store. Most apps are good in the iOS store.

If epic wants kids to buy more stuff have their parents pay the 30% premium. If your kid is glued to the phone I’m sure you enabled that and can continue enabling it. Sorry not sorry.

samatman3• 2 years ago

We don't have to imagine, we have 40 years of game consoles existing.

threeseed11• 2 years ago

You are in many respects a customer of the browser vendors.

They can choose at any point to harm your business e.g. Apple restricting first party cookies.

beezle• 2 years ago

A better analogy might be if a tire company could only sell its tires through the Ford/GM "store"/dealership. Nobody would put up with that.

yakkityyak• 2 years ago

I don’t quite understand why they happily subscribe to this model with Xbox PlayStation and Nintendo, but are adamant about getting their way with Google and Apple.

jimscard2• 2 years ago

Everyone who publishes software that runs on iOS devices is an Apple customer, though. This isn’t the same thing as a browser — apps running on iOS devices consume APIs on the device, utilize Apple services, etc. Also, when it comes to web apps, in most cases, the developers are also customers of the browser vendors -- from using browser developer tools and SDKs, for example, https://www.google.com/chrome/dev/ , https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/developer/ , and https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/?form=M... to name three. Safari’s dev tools etc. you get with your Apple Dev subscription.

And those browser vendors, like Apple, also provide developer training, developer support services, early access to upcoming product versions, opportunities to provide input into future product designs and features, etc.

In other words, this is not a problem, much less the “core problem”. This is normal industry practice. In fact, on some platforms, there are royalty fees due for the SDK runtime components that are required to run the software a third party developer provides. Just look at mainframes — you might buy XYZ Accounting system from them, and have to pay an additional annual license payment for the cobol runtime it requires.

That fact, by the way, is what the half a Euro per ‘download’ technology fee is about. Part of the DMA requires separation of the “app store fee” from the fee for using iOS services.

It’s also important to note, when people talk about the 30% app store fee as being high — the app store is essentially the same thing as a retail store. Back in the days when you bought software in a physical store, rather than downloading it, the margin at the retail level ranged between 30% and 50%. E.g., we would pay the distributor $25 and sell it for $49.99. The distributor in turn would buy the software in bulk from the manufacturer, for somewhere around $20-$22.

Software developers get a lot bigger share of what the consumer pays in the current model. Some, however, are greedier than others, and leverage governments to their advantage. Epic Games doesn’t want any competition - they want to be the sole retailer of Fortnite on all platforms so that they can raise the price to whatever they want.

amelius2• 2 years ago

The issue is that Epic doesn’t want to be Apple’s customer in the first place. They want to publish iOS apps. The fact that this requires them to be an Apple customer is the core problem.

Indeed. It all boils down to: if I buy a product from company A, then want to use that product to do business with company B, why does company A have anything to say about it? Am I not the owner of my device?

Copernicron2• 2 years ago

The issue is that Epic doesn’t want to be Apple’s customer in the first place. They want to publish iOS apps. The fact that this requires them to be an Apple customer is the core problem.

The issue is that General Mills doesn't want to be Costco's customer in the first place. They want to sell to Costco shoppers. The fact that this requires them to be a Costco customer is the core problem.

beeboobaa2• 2 years ago

Then you shouldn't position yourself as a gatekeeper. I also don't want to pay taxes, but have to comply with the law anyway.

onion2k• 2 years ago

If I had a Customer that spent years relentlessly complaining about my Company, I know I wouldn't want to have them as a Customer.

Epic aren't a customer. They're a supplier. They provide Apple with software that Apple's customers buy.

Apple are denying their customers, iPhone users, the option to buy Epic apps through Apple's app store. You should never lose sight of who actually loses here. It's not really Apple or Epic. They're massive corporations that will continue to make billions regardless. The loser is iPhone users who want to use their devices to play a game they enjoy.

yokoprime2• 2 years ago

If someone spends years badmouthing Microsoft, would you say its ok for Microsoft to block their apps from Windows?

johnnyanmac13• 2 years ago

Depends on the ruling and laws. I'm sure someone who didn't allow homosexual couples would not want to welcome them even after it was ruled as unconstitutional to discriminate to them in the US (even if they are middle eastern and laws in their homeland do allow for that). They were technically rowdy customers but the law allows them to be in as long as their rowdiness was due to their identity and not other neutral actions (although we know they will be judged much more harshly on those actions as an attempt to disciminate).

A bit of a crude comparison, but I hope it gets the point across that the behavior depends. retaliating against rules that the EU later determines to be bad rules may open a case to allow them, as long as they don't break other rules.

gigel82• 2 years ago

Epic isn't Apple's customer. Apple is just the local (techno)feudal lord / rentier wanting to tax all merchants trying to sell goods to Apple's serfs.

heisenbit• 2 years ago

If one stretches ones leverage to the point where it is considered by authorities as excessive and is forced to make concessions one is not in the position to attack those who attacked ones monopolistic behavior. The technical term is is "sitting in a glass house" and while one figures out the layout of the panels one is advised to refrain from throwing rocks.

The way I see it Apple is lumping past behavior and current behavior of Epic together to make an exclusion decision. But there was a big change between the past and now so the market situation has changed and access to this changed market should not overly depend on information from a very different world otherwise it can be considered at best arbitrary or an attempt to exclude competitors with irrelevant facts. The latter could get expensive.

overgard5• 2 years ago

Epic is only a customer because Apple's policies forces them to be.

raincole• 2 years ago

Are you serious? So you think it's okay for Unity to terminate my dev account because I complain about Unity on hacker news?

(Replace Unity with Windows, Photoshop or whatever software people constantly complain about.)

Spivak• 2 years ago

It's not even that, if I was Apple I wouldn't want to have them as a customer simply to deny them standing for their constant lawsuits. If the two companies have absolutely no business relationship at all, ties completely severed then it's a lot harder to demonstrate harm. All you could really sue about is that they won't do business with you.

I'm actually surprised it's not SOP to stop doing business with people who sue you after the lawsuit ends. I mean you took the nuclear option.

scotty792• 2 years ago

Things look a bit different if you are one of two for example electric utility companies in the country.

You can't deny someone service just because they said mean thing about you.

Companies should be forced to service law abiding customers.

datadeft• 2 years ago

We need % of revenue based punishment for such acts to see fast this attitude can change.

andrewmcwatters• 2 years ago

Whether or not Tim Sweeney has a legal leg to stand on, I'm so happy he keeps fighting this. Likewise with Spotify. I love that the EU is pushing legislation to give at least some people back control of their devices.

I'm curious why Tim Cook thinks Apple can continue to treat developers they way they do for years on end and it won't slowly but surely come to bite them hard one day.

zozbot234• 2 years ago

Look, this is confusing. Can I just call them Tim Epic and Tim Apple?

coolspot• 2 years ago

Yes, mr. President

zyang• 2 years ago

Tim Sweeney could lead by example and remove Unreal royalty fees and make his app store free for all. There's no freedom fighter here. Just another greedy troll.

hu33• 2 years ago

Tim Sweeney could lead by example and remove Unreal royalty fees and make his app store free for all. There's no freedom fighter here. Just another greedy troll. -zyang

Unreal Engine is free up to $1 million revenue and 5% after that.

How is that a "greedy troll"?

adrr• 2 years ago

Why is it bad for people to profit off their work? You can use unreal engine for non-commercial use for free. The source is open.

andersa12• 2 years ago

The fines Apple is going to collect for intentionally failing to comply with the DMA are going to be of Epic proportions, exceeding any profit they could have gotten by continuing to steal 30% from society. Ready your popcorn buckets for the next few months/years. They will likely be making an example out of Apple - after all Apple and Google are the reason for this legislation to exist in the first place.

In the non-compliance decision, the Commission may impose on a gatekeeper fines not exceeding 10 % of its total worldwide turnover in the preceding financial year where it finds that the gatekeeper, intentionally or negligently, fails to comply with [...]

samatman3• 2 years ago

Sounds like Apple should exit the European market then. No one is forcing them to do business there, and it only accounts for 10% of their revenue.

hu33• 2 years ago

Apple bent over pretty hard to stay in China [1] and they'll do the same for EU.

Because if they don't, the network effects of an entire important continent without Apple's strong presence would be devastating long-term.

[1]:

- "Apple tells suppliers to use 'Taiwan, China' or 'Chinese Taipei' to appease Beijing" https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/05/apple_warns_suppliers...

- "The problem with canceling Jon Stewart: Apple bowed to Chinese government censorship" https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2023/10/26/jon...

- "Apple pulls Taiwanese flag emoji from iPhones in Hong Kong" https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-10-08/apple-taiw...

andersa12• 2 years ago

That would be a monumentally stupid decision when they could instead simply comply with the law and continue making slightly fewer billions of revenue. Investors won't let them do that, heads would roll.

zarzavat2• 2 years ago

Tim Cook would be deposed if he pulled out of the EU market. There’s no way that shareholders are going to allow Apple to leave that much money on the table, it’s unthinkable.

pelorat3• 2 years ago

They should just comply to be honest because it won't actually change things. Barely anyone in the EU is going to use an alternative app store, nor is anyone but a few select hackers going to sideload apps.

Lots of brands of Android phones come shipped with alternative app stores, but those places are wastelands.

The main issue is that you can't develop an iOS binary without an Apple developer account.

blashyrk3• 2 years ago

Maybe they should. Because that's exactly the kind of attitude that they're enforcing upon their developers.

Instead, they want to have it both ways, "my way or the highway" when it comes to the App Store rules and monetization cut, but on the other hand minimal, extremely cynical "compliance" towards the rules EU has laid out for them.

_visgean• 2 years ago

Total revenue is 30%, not 10%. For App store its only 7% tho.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/382175/quarterly-revenue...

https://techcrunch.com/2024/02/01/apple-says-eu-represents-7...

k33n• 2 years ago

Apple should get out of the European market entirely. Their product offering is literally incompatible with the laws that govern EU commerce.

There's plenty of money to be made in Asia/Pacific and the Americas.

Apple's walled-garden approach is innovative especially on the security and stability fronts and anyone who doesn't like that or wants alternative launchers should jailbreak their ios device or just use Android, which does fit better into EU market.

Apple has literally never cared and should never care what outside bodies (including to a large degree -- their own customers) want their products to be. It's what has made them unique in the past.

If Apple backs down on their vision then they are no longer Apple.

andersa12• 2 years ago

Apple is making many billions selling hardware and services in the EU - investors would cook them for that move.

lapcat7• 2 years ago

Apple's last quarter results: $30 billion in net sales from Europe, their second largest market behind the Americas. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy2024-q1/FY24_Q1_Consol...

lm411• 2 years ago

Apple's walled-garden approach is innovative especially on the security and stability fronts and anyone who doesn't like that or wants alternative launchers should jailbreak their ios device or just use Android, which does fit better into EU market.

This how I feel completely.

I use quite few different devices & operating systems on a daily basis (MacOS, iOS, Android, Linux, Windows, FreeBSD) and they all have their place. I use a Mac for my primary workstation and an iPhone for my primary phone specifically because I want security, stability, and usability on those devices. Also, the Apple ecosystem & iCloud, are very convenient for sharing / collaborating with household family members.

Don't get me wrong - many Linux distros are very stable and secure. But the "year of the Linux Desktop" is still far out. I actually feel it's further out now than it was 5 years ago. Which is too bad, because I am an avid Linux user and have used it since Slackware 3.0 / kernel 1.2.13. Easily 50% time spent on my Mac is just using a terminal logged into Linux or BSD based servers.

If I wanted a single phone, for fun, learning, hacking, etc, it would definitely not be an iPhone. But that's not what I want / need in my phone at this point in my life.

It often seems that the people pushing so hard for Apple to change its ways are not the people that actually use Apple Products, but rather individuals projecting their own beliefs and preferences onto others.

askonomm2• 2 years ago

As an EU citizen, I love Apple products and would hate if I had to use subpar alternatives like Windows/Linux laptops or Android phones, so I for one would like if this would end in a way that Apple would remain in EU.

samatman3• 2 years ago

It won't end with Apple, you know. The EU's arrogance is going to impoverish the entire continent.

realusername4• 2 years ago

They didn't get out of China despite having their iCloud servers owned by the CCP, don't worry they won't get out of the EU.

drooopy2• 2 years ago

Apple investors would publicly crucify tim cook in the middle of their spaceship campus if he were to take the company out of Europe.

jsnell11• 2 years ago

Apple hasn't left China. They'll rather compromise both their product vision and their Chinese users than then leave a market that's smaller (for them) than the EU.

abhinavk5• 2 years ago

They should totally allow users to jailbreak/root their device. This is what people were expecting, not Apple-authorized alternative stores.

If Apple backs down on their vision then they are no longer Apple.

They already did it in China.

hartator• 2 years ago

Shielding the Epic game store under a different account is not the bravest move from Epic.

I would ban other Epic accounts if I was Apple.

smoldesu7• 2 years ago

Which Epic Games account would you prefer they use, the American one?

If you want to talk about cowardly behavior, we should discuss Apple's anti-steering policy. At the root of this brouhaha is an indefensible double-standard that Apple cannot sustain in a fair market.

mrtksn3• 2 years ago

I wonder why Apple doesn't open up their platforms to have everything best on their devices instead of fighting and agonising developers and governments. Yes yes, the commission is nice but they might be killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I mean, Apple is amazingly good in some areas but in some other areas their products are used only because they don't give a choice and they intent to keep it this way. They also want to control everything and provide all the services.

A bit short sighted and futile IMHO because the competition is catching up with their user experience but Apple doesn't catch up as quickly with the "smart" bits of the modern tech.

I recall a Steve Jobs speech about Apple doing a few things %20 better and other things worse and how he intents to change this by embracing the industry standards because they simply can't do everything by themselves.

I feel like Apple is doing the same mistake again where their products are becoming slightly better at few things and worse in others simply because you can't have the better stuff installed on Apple devices.

Brian_K_White7• 2 years ago

Steve hated industry standards.

The only time he ever said anything else was when every web site in the world ran on flash and iphone couldn't do flash.

Every iphone user was reminded daily about how kneecapped it is when they can't pull up the web site for the restaursnt to check hours or call up for a reservation. That kind of life experience was his entire focus and his showpiece product failed utterly at it.

And so he said flash is bad and html5 and pwa is the better way to do what flash does.

Since then they only say anything even slightly similar only as a defense against monopoly charges about native apps "what? you can use pwas" but only on Safari and castrated functionality.

If Steve could have sold a product that didn't even use the same tcp/ip and html as everyone else, he would have. The only time he allowed the tiniest shred of interoperability is when there is no way to sell the product without it.

mrtksn3• 2 years ago

Maybe the word he used wasn't "industry standards", I couldn't find the video now. The idea of the speech was that you can't do everything by yourself because you have just this much capacity and if you stretch yourself too much you end up with overall worse experience even if you do some things better. I think he was explaining why he is abandoning some internal Apple projects in favour of the established ones made by others.

fancyham• 2 years ago

Flash WAS crappy - it had so many vulnerabilities (and probably would have run terribly on the early iPhones)

Just as importantly, Apple and Steve learned not to rely on someone else’s technology. PowerPC and all that (when Motorola stopped keeping up with Intel and Apple suffered)

Look at things through this lens and their behavior over the past decade makes a lot of sense.

AnthonyMouse10• 2 years ago

Steve hated industry standards.
The only time he ever said anything else was when every web site in the world ran on flash and iphone couldn't do flash.

NeXTSTEP, the Steve Jobs thing that got renamed as Mac OS X when Apple bought it, was based on BSD Unix. In the early 2000s, Apple produced and used a lot of open standards. "Darwin" was open source. Bonjour is mDNS. Apple developed CUPS and open sourced it.

Then they got big and greedy and stopped.

scarface_746• 2 years ago

So now the truth.

Adobe claimed that if Apple had let them, they could have gotten Flash running on the first iPhone that had 128Kb of RAM and a 400Mhz processor. Safari could barely run on the phone. If you scrolled fast, you would get a checkerbox while waiting for the page to render.

When Adobe did finally bring Flash to mobile in 2010-2011 on Android, it required a 1Ghz processor and 1GB of RAM and it still ran badly. An iPhone with similar specs didn’t come out until 2011.

The iMac came with only USB in 1997 before most PCs fully adopted it. The original iPod played MP3s and later AAC files and even later standard H.264 and MPegs files.

The original iPhone only supported HTML5.

misnome3• 2 years ago

That kind of life experience was his entire focus and his showpiece product failed utterly at it

As did every other phone and tablet ecosystem, even the ones that tried to add flash. Turns out it was bloated, slow, insecure and battery hungry - all the reasons he stated!

JimDabell• 2 years ago

Steve hated industry standards.
The only time he ever said anything else was when every web site in the world ran on flash and iphone couldn't do flash.

This is wildly inaccurate. Flash was never anywhere near that popular and it wasn’t an industry standard. The industry standards were HTML/CSS/JavaScript, and sites that used those were way more common than sites that ran on Flash. We’re not talking a lot more common, we’re talking at least 30–40x as common. Flash-only sites were an annoying but small minority.

The iPhone was the first phone with excellent support for the HTML/CSS/JavaScript industry standards. It literally changed the web development industry it was that good. In 2007, mobile sites tended to sit on m.example.com separate from the main site, and use WAP/WML. The “really good” ones had a severely cut back plain HTML version. None used Flash, that wasn’t even a factor on mobile at all.

Then along comes the iPhone with Mobile Safari. Practically overnight, people were asking for “iPhone-compatible” websites to be built, which were really just normal websites with CSS media queries to offer a mobile-friendly layout. That’s what Steve Jobs was talking about when he was describing a “desktop-class web browser” in his keynote speech.

And because WebKit was open-source, all the other smartphones started using it and got the same capabilities. In the space of a year or two, the mobile web transformed from something virtually nobody wanted to something useful and fun – all using industry standard HTML/CSS/JavaScript.

Ignoring the fact that Flash was terrible quality, which other people have responded to, that whole era of the iPhone is practically defined by Steve Jobs betting hard on industry standards instead of Flash and other proprietary stuff.

izacus8• 2 years ago

It is incredibly hard to change a culture of a corporation. Apple is not a thinking human, it's a bunch of people that have their own egos, preferences and wishes. It may not even be currently feasible to propose an idea like you have because the person doing so would be unpopular internally in Cupertino.

Culture is hard. This is why you see corporations and businesses fail constantly despite "obvious" choices being ahead of them.

amelius2• 2 years ago

The point is not to create the best possible user experience.

Apple's goal is to build the best possible vending machine and put it in all our pockets.

pornel3• 2 years ago

Tim Cook’s Apple is all about increasing the Services Revenue. The line has to go up. Apple exists for their shareholders, not users.

Terretta2• 2 years ago

The line has to go up. Apple exists for their shareholders, not users.

Who does Epic exist for?

This "they exist for the shareholders" is an argument that cancels itself out, as it's true of all firms.

So you have to look at who's next on the list. Is the company for people looking to place ads? Is the company for publishers of games? Who is it for?

Apocryphon5• 2 years ago

I've argued before that Apple should've semi-opened up iOS in a way that they could manage it to their interests. Now they've forced the hand of regulators to do it instead.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32170848

whimsicalism6• 2 years ago

it didnt work for google, who is also in the sights of regulators despite having a considerbly more semi-open OS

Workaccount22• 2 years ago

If there is an anti-culture youth movement against iPhones, apple will be in serious trouble. Their revenue is heavily dependent on selling iphones and people using the app store.

freedomben4• 2 years ago

Fortunately for Apple, there definitely is not a movement against iPhones. If anything, the youth associate status with iphones, and if you don't have one you are a loser deserving ridicule. My kids have stopped asking as they know I'm not going to give Apple any of my money, but for a very long time they begged for iphones because kids made fun of them for "having a droid." Today's youth are definitely not the rebellious counter-culture youth from my younger days. They are very much conformists.*

*Speaking very generally of course, and only from anecdotal experience which is a very small slice of the market that my kids know

doctorpangloss2• 2 years ago

embracing the industry standards

The iPhone has legendary levels of crapitude.

Consider every app you use on the iPhone that is authored by Apple. Would you or its stakeholders still use it if you weren't forced to?

Mail? Calendar? Safari? Photos? Music? Fucking Messages? No, no, no, no, no, no.

Don't misunderstand me. I am talking about access to the exact same first party APIs and integrations Apple's software has, and giving it to third party developers. The functionality is so painfully basic, but nonetheless gated, of course a third party would be able to author something better. Like you think Spotify wouldn't give you Siri compatibility? It's just not allowed to.

The App Store is just the crappiest of them all. I don't think people realize how fees and its absolutely horrible discovery is responsible for the shitty state of apps today. I have been in this business a long time, and have met a lot of people, and it is absolutely, 100% Apple's fault that App Store games suck, and Steam's don't. The device is as powerful as a Nintendo Switch nowadays!

mrtksn3• 2 years ago

Safari, Photos and Music are apps that I legitimately like and enjoy using. I wouldn't use anything else.

I'm generally happy iPhone user. From Apple's offerings, the one I don't like is iCloud because lacks any granularity whatsoever. I want my photos synced but I don't want to waste my space and bandwidth with the videos.

I also would like to have full API access to everything so I can experiment with stuff. Also I want to be able to re-purpose my old iPhone but its too much locked down for the things I would like to do.

However, I'm generally very pleased. I can't stand the Android experience, honestly.

jv95• 2 years ago

You say these apps are shitty, but you haven’t posted any specifics. What is it that makes these apps so bad? I don’t mind any of the apps you mentioned. I vastly prefer the music app to Spotifys UI (at the least the last time I’ve used it which is admittedly several years ago). Mail notifications are sometimes buggy but I can read my mail just fine. Most calendar apps I’ve tried, even paid once, started spamming me with subscriptions. I do see the issues with photos, namely that Apple pretends that downloaded images are just as important as photos I took myself.

I don't think people realize how fees and its absolutely horrible discovery is responsible for the shitty state of apps today. […] it is absolutely, 100% Apple's fault that App Store games suck, and Steam's don't.

AFAIK Steam fees are 30% as well at least for the average developer + 100$ for publishing a game. So I don’t think the fees are responsible for the shitty state of apps. I think it’s more about customers not wanting to pay for mobile apps in general. Looking at a few successful indie games, they tend to be free (and ad or iAP supported) on the App Store but are sold directly on steam. For example vampire survivors is free (+ Ads) on iOS but costs 5€ on steam. Other games release full price on IOS but the UI is so bad that it’s barely playable.

charcircuit3• 2 years ago

Apple should avoid destroying developer trust as developers aren't forced to write ios apps. Apple needs developers.

cheeze• 2 years ago

Developers aren't forced to write any apps. They write apps where the revenue makes sense.

And the revenue makes the most sense on ios for a large share of developers.

95%+ of developers don't care if Apple doesn't allow Epic on their store. That's just reality.

If my boss tells me "we're launching an ios app" I'm not going to tell him about how I disagree with Apples principles and refuse to build it.

charcircuit3• 2 years ago

They care about their own accounts being deleted over some disagreement. The risk of having your account banned changes how you invest in the platform.

mdhb• 2 years ago

No but a lot will start building PWAs wherever they can instead because they no longer need to write an entire second copy of their app that only runs in one place and can’t share code and they don’t have to just pay 30% of their revenue to someone for no good reason.

Trust me, Apple pissing off developers is absolutely going to have serious implications for them.

makeitdouble4• 2 years ago

At this point Apple's view of what "developpers" means is probably Adobe, Microsoft, Google, Activision etc.

Smaller devs and midrange gaming companies tremendously helped launch the iPhone, but there's clearly just an afterthought in current Apple's mind.

Despegar4• 2 years ago

Epic perhaps thought Apple might show them grace after the lawsuit in the US. A kind of repeat of the Apple-Samsung litigation where everyone has a "it's just business" attitude and keeps doing business together while simultaneously suing each other. Apple on the other hand has decided they will show them no quarter. I don't think they're being emotional about it. I think it's to show every other developer that they will actually enforce the DPLA that everyone signs, and they won't turn the other cheek.

lxgr7• 2 years ago

Parts of Apple's DPLA are likely unenforceable in the EU going forward.

akira25012• 2 years ago

Attempting to enforce an "illegal" contract provision seems pretty "emotional" to me. Apple is finally in a position to lose their monopoly grip on a platform software store, and they clearly will stop at nothing to stop the loss of that revenue, this is obviously an existential problem for them.

andersa12• 2 years ago

Epic doesn't care whether Apple shows "grace", or needs them to, they are going in by force with the backing of the EU legislation. It might just take a year or two longer to get through the courts. They can hold out that long without any problems, preparing their store in the background.

Despegar4• 2 years ago

I'm not aware of any duty to deal in the DMA.

scarface_746• 2 years ago

That’s very much a Pyrrhic victory if Eoic doesn’t have access to the US market. The court ruling in the US said that Apple has the right to terminate their account.

From the linked article

This judgment stated that “Apple has the contractual right to terminate its DPLA with any or all of Epic Games’ wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or other entities under Epic Games’ control at any time and at Apple’s sole discretion.”

lamontcg2• 2 years ago

Yeah, its really weird to appeal to the noble intentions of a corporation.

They're both just engaged in business.

I can believe that Apple is acting incredibly badly in this case without needing to fluff up Epic Games at all.

Apple and Samsung could sue each other and do business with each other because the stakes were lower and they were more codependent.

jeffwask• 2 years ago

As long as Forkknife continues to print money, they can afford the battle.

dwaite10• 2 years ago

Apple is asking for a clear commitment to honor its contract this time. I'm pretty sure a court ruling on reinstating the account isn't going to also require a clear commitment to honor the contract.

mattmaroon• 2 years ago

I think with Samsung, Apple had little choice. If you need to buy over 200 million high res mobile screens per year you have very few choices. Exact numbers on Samsung’s end aren’t readily available, but semiconductor components are by far their biggest segment and Apple is probably their only significant external customer.

I am absolutely sure Apple would love to cut Samsung off at the knees, but not if they do it to themselves at the same time. Samsung poses a much greater threat to Apple than all the third party app stores that could be dreamed up.

It’s a really interesting mutually assured destruction situation.

Epic and Apple, on the other hand, can both be fine without each other, so I wouldn’t expect them to work through the animosity

matthewdgreen• 2 years ago

Epic is sending a strong signal to regulators that they're malicious, and can't be trusted to police themselves. It's a terrible look under the circumstances.

albert180• 2 years ago

You misspelled Apple

raydev2• 2 years ago

I don't think they're being emotional about it

It's hard to read it as anything but emotional. It's pure display of power, Apple is willing to hurt iOS users to make a point to other developers.

simondotau6• 2 years ago

Epic Games was willing to hurt their iOS users by knowingly, wilfully, and strategically breaching Apple's developer agreement in a way they knew would result in Fortnite being removed from the store. Then they manipulated their customers into directing their anger towards Apple even though it was Epic's wilful actions were to blame.

I'd be a little emotional too.

sangnoir• 2 years ago

This is a well-timed account deactivation by Apple to prevent Epic from publishing its app store in Apple's app store with iOS 17.4

ksec2• 2 years ago

A kind of repeat of the Apple-Samsung litigation where everyone has a "it's just business" attitude

Very different. Steve was taking Samsung to court partly ( or largely ) taking Android with it. But Tim wasn't a supporter of that, or at least behind the scene he was dealing with Samsung ( or Samsung Display, Samsung Foundry and Samsung Memory divisions directly ). So yes it was all it's just business in large because Tim was there to smooth things out. Or partly because Tim knew they cant do it without Samsung. Zero Chance at the time and they wasn't a trillion dollar company then.

I dont see any similarities here with Apple and Epic.

vagrantJin• 2 years ago

It is quite unusual to cheer for Goliath putting a David to the knife. Sure, Apple makes great premium hardware but IMO, their monopolistic actions in the digital space is something to be truly wary of.

dmitrygr2• 2 years ago

Epic is learning the lesson that Nvidia had to learn. Apple holds grudges. Honestly, it was idiotic of them to expect anything else. Maybe they thought that they were more Samsung-like and after being a huge pain to apple, life will resume normalcy. Apple needed Samsung. They do not need Epic.

paulmd4• 2 years ago

people really think bumpgate was about some issue that also affected AMD too and not closing the door on NVIDIA building a platform inside Apple's platform and shifting the balance of power?

you've been reading way too much semiaccurate lol

https://blog.greggant.com/posts/2021/10/13/apple-vs-nvidia-w...

like, we have the benefit of a decade of retrospect and watched nvidia do exactly the thing that apple refuses to let their partners ever do (namely: wear the pants in the relationship), and you're still taking charlie's takes at face value. Do you really think it's the bumps and not Apple taking action to protect themselves and their future products against the threat of competitive lock-in posed by NVIDIA and CUDA?

it is just amazing that people continue to take the guy seriously. How is that "NVIDIA is 4+ years behind AMD in the mid-term, and GV100 and GP100 are bumpgate 2.0" working out for you? Was ~2015-2020 a good period for Radeon Group?

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2013/05/20/nvidias-volta-gpu-ra...

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2015/05/19/amd-finally-talks-hb...

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/05/03/thing-go-bumpgate-in...

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/06/08/nvidia-p100-gpu-upda...

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/08/01/nvidia-finally-shows...

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2014/09/15/amds-mantle-api-goin...

it's amazing that people will sniff out a MLID quote from a thousand paces and yet still uncritically babble Charlie's nonsense like it's the word of god. Dude is a stopped clock who occasionally happens to be correct in his NVIDIA/Intel hatewagon, and that's given him enough reputability that he's apparently beyond reproach with a significant portion of the Gaming Public (tm) who are just looking for reasons to be upset about NVIDIA/Intel.

munk-a4• 2 years ago

Grudges are unproductive and bring no benefit to the shareholder - this move is almost certainly going to result in a lawsuit that Epic would be in a good position in (assuming there aren't massive skeletons in the closet). This is an irrational move - especially in an election year when politicians have a lot to gain by demonizing late stage capitalism.

JumpCrisscross20• 2 years ago

late stage capitalism

The folks who were using this term are being successfully primaried.

justin662• 2 years ago

Apple holds grudges. Honestly, it was idiotic of them to expect anything else.

I'm sure upon first hearing this news Epic's management collectively lay down and curled up into the fetal position, awestruck and weeping in surprise at the sheer, unprecedented nature of this blow.

benced4• 2 years ago

Even setting aside the dubious morality of Apple's rules on iOS, I feel like I'm going insane watching Apple be maximally aggressive. The EU loves regulating! There's nothing they love more! It seems supremely unwise to give them additional excuses to do something they clearly want to do anyways.

patrickmcnamara• 2 years ago

Regulatory accelerationism. I never thought it would come from Apple.

mattbrewsbytes• 2 years ago

Apple be maximally aggressive

From an observation standpoint seeing how Microsoft behaved in the 90's and onward, they (Apple) are behaving very similarly - almost exactly with what MS did for Windows back then. I have a growing distaste for Apple corporate/mgmt each day even though I am surrounded by their devices.

__loam• 2 years ago

Apple has been dragged kicking and screaming into more consumer friendly positions since the iPhone was released. It took years for them to simply switch to a more open charging port standard.

BiteCode_dev• 2 years ago

And like MS they will just pay a few billions in PR and Foss to make a come back in 10 years and all will be forgiven.

They will get away with this, we let them. They have no incentive to be better.

JumpCrisscross20• 2 years ago

watching Apple be maximally aggressive

Sweeney allegedly tweeted that he would breach his contract with Apple. Apple reached out and asked if he was being hysterical for public display. He didn’t clarify. At that point, Epic credibly threatened breach of contract.

This is a commercial dispute between multi-billion dollar companies, both of whom charge outrageous platform fees, both of whom seem to enjoy being dramatic, and both of whom are being maximally aggressive. It’s fair to remain emotionally uninvolved.

minimaxir• 2 years ago

At that point, Epic credibly threatened breach of contract.

A threat of a breach of contract is not a breach of contract, which will be a sticking point if the EU gets involved again.

benced4• 2 years ago

This is flatly false.

Schiller emailed Sweeney asking for assurances and Sweeney responded with:

Epic and its subsidiaries are acting in good faith and will comply with all terms of current and future agreements with Apple, and we'll be glad to provide Apple with any specific further assurances on the topic that you'd like.

Without reply, Apple summarily terminated their developer account a week later. It seems obvious, in retrospect, that Schiller's email's goal was to establish a fig leaf of Apple having reached out before doing this.

It is indeed true that Sweeney has tweeted many criticisms of Apple's DMA plans but there haven't been any threatening noncompliance.

itsdrewmiller2• 2 years ago

Epic has a 12% fee, while Apple has a 30% fee - I don't think those are equally outrageous and I would go so far as to say one is extremely reasonable.

elpool2• 2 years ago

Do you have a link to the tweet from Sweeney saying he would breach the contract?

dkjaudyeqooe2• 2 years ago

Yes but there's two of them, and they're competing against each other.

That increases consumer choice and weakens the market power of both.

izacus8• 2 years ago

Having worked for many bosses, never ever never undersestimate the power of ego of an executive. It's only second to the ego of a lawyer.

Many of them will tank their company and their client if they get their ego bruised and feel publicly humiliated. Those are hyper competitive people which see live as zero sum game and are trained in life to never, ever, lose a challenge or competition for domination. ESPECIALLY in public.

The myth of a rational businessman is just that - a myth.

Being publicly regulated is exactly that scenario for Apple. There's execs in that very company that are frothing at their mouth in irrational anger ready to throw their weight around and WIN. Stomp on the opponent. SPLAT the unimportant fly that DARED challenge them.

(I'm exaggerating... but not by much. This seems more of an emotional than thoughtful response Apple is doing here.)

benced4• 2 years ago

It's hard to avoid any conclusion but this one.

FirmwareBurner12• 2 years ago

What if, and hear me out, execs could go to jail instead of just their company paying fines as if they're parking tickets? Would they still be as cocky?

ben_w5• 2 years ago

I'm willing to believe Apple may be like that behind the scenes, buuuuuut while reading this:

Many of them will tank their company and their client if they get their ego bruised and feel publicly humiliated. Those are hyper competitive people which see live as zero sum game and are trained in life to never, ever, lose a challenge or competition for domination. ESPECIALLY in public.

… I thought you were going to name Sweeney as the petulant man-child chafing at rules and being told "no".

FirmwareBurner12• 2 years ago

Feels like a mob boss sending a message.

"We own this platform, we make the rules, and we don't care who you are or how big you are, you mess with us we'll terminate your account and revenue stream."

C'mon EU, do something. <poking EU with a stick>

zshrc3• 2 years ago

We own this platform, (we built this platform), we make the rules

I don't see the issue with this... it's not like they're exploiting an inherited platform like Oracle with (everything), IBM with Red Hat or Broadcom with VMware.

FirmwareBurner12• 2 years ago

Would you also defend Microsoft of the 90's with the same argument for the similar issue?

At least Microsoft had no way of stopping you selling apps for Windows but Apple is a next level of nefarious.

jessekv• 2 years ago

In the EU, the EU owns the platform and makes the rules (controls and regulates markets). The question is: which platform needs the other more?

_aavaa_4• 2 years ago

We own this platform, (we built this platform), we make the rules

I own my phone, I make the rules.

If Apple doesn't want Epic on the App Store, fine. But their current level of control over what people can do with the devices they purchased and own is absurd and has nothing to do with market size.

scottyah2• 2 years ago

Seems more to me like someone built a beautiful walled garden where people are walking nicely, and some rowdy pirates are trying to break it down because they see a lot of money inside.

FirmwareBurner12• 2 years ago

someone built a beautiful walled garden where people are walking nicely

Just because you build something nice doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it. You're still bound by the rules of the state where you operate and earn revenue.

If I build a nice house for me I still have tones of regulation how I can build it and what I can do with it, including activities inside. For example, I can't fire guns(EU) or cook meth in my house, even though it's my property and I pay taxes on it.

Tech companies for some reason think that just because they don't build with brick and mortar but with bytes instead, then somehow the local laws don't apply to them. So just because you built a nice walled garden, the state will want to make sure you don't get to screw over everyone who enters there.

lapcat7• 2 years ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729 (1 hour ago, 72 comments)

beeboobaa2• 2 years ago

Mysteriously not on the front page.

lapcat7• 2 years ago

That is indeed strange.

op00to• 2 years ago

It’s not mysterious. Every time this happens it’s because the thread triggered a flame war filter.

dang3• 2 years ago

Normally we'd merge into the earlier thread, but in this case I'm going to merge those comments hither, because the current submission is (presumably) a more neutral article.

hellcow• 2 years ago

Clearly the recent 1.8B Euro fine the EU levied against Apple didn't send a message. Perhaps the EU needs to ratchet it up by an order of magnitude.

s3r3nity• 2 years ago

Quite an authoritarian take.

droopyEyelids• 2 years ago

Both sides are authoritarian. One is a private company with more money than most countries, one is an economic union nominally representing the people of many countries.

I don't know where I fall on this issue personally, but siding with Apple is probably more authoritarian.

CamperBob2• 2 years ago

The unelected 'authority' being Apple, of course.

Apple's choice was apparently to die as a hammer-wielding hero or live long enough to become the patriarch on the telescreen.

ergonaught2• 2 years ago

More likely, Apple needs to withdraw entirely from the EU and see what happens.

freetanga• 2 years ago

Watch as your shares slide down as you withdraw from one of the worlds largest markets?

FirmwareBurner12• 2 years ago

What will happen if they exit the EU? They will loose more revenue and tank their stock and Tim Apple will get the boot ad EU users will move to Samsungs, Pixels and Nokias and life will go on.

You're acting like the EU is some poor country in the outback and not their second biggest market after the US.

Or better yet, we fork Android and have a non-Google EU-only appstore similar to Huawei's Andorid fork OS and appstore but with EU's privacy rules. If so many companies bother to make apps just for Huawei's separate appstore, then they'll definitely do that for the EU as well. Of course, then Google will go bitch about it to "daddy", and the US will probably start a trade war with the EU.

kyriakos2• 2 years ago

Apple stock price will drop. IPhone usage in EU will drop instantly. Apple revenue will be severely hit.

People will get over it switch to alternative services.

c-fe• 2 years ago

I think the main danger would be a (new?) competitor trying to become Apple, to fill the niche of premium devices, simple lineup, i.e. whatever image apple currently has. And they could do so in europe in all peace and once they are ready expand to other markets and compete with Apple. To me that seems like one of the biggest dangers of withdrawing from the EU.

speedgoose• 2 years ago

My guesses: A big party at Google, a wave of so-so smartphones from companies that will try their luck in the high-end smartphones segment, a grey market of iPhones imported from other countries at high prices without warranty.

lapcat7• 2 years ago

Apple's last quarter results: $30 billion in net sales from Europe, their second largest market behind the Americas. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy2024-q1/FY24_Q1_Consol...

The idea of leaving Europe is nonsense. Apple is a publicly owned corporation, and Tim Cook would be immediately dismissed for such financial recklessness.

izacus8• 2 years ago

Hahaha, have you seen the firing frenzy the US execs were expected to execute for a SLIGHT DIP in revenue and a few % in cost of a loan? :D

And you expect those same share holders to just support leaving of a massive market? Cook would be taken through NYSE by his nether regions by just thinking that. This whole idea is nonsense.

And even if, by any bizarre chance (it's 2020s after all) it happens, we'll suffer with... *checks list*... Samsung Galaxy Phones? Lenovo, Samsung and ASUS laptops? Sony headphones? Huh. What horrible existence. I'm sure that would be an end of the Union. Imagine using a great Samsung foldable instead of an iPhone.

sojuz151• 2 years ago

The lose of revenue would not be the biggest problem, they could afford it. The problem would be the loss of applications, most EU based developers would stop supporting iOS and focus on Android. That would hurt

odiroot• 2 years ago

I'd love to watch that!

dkjaudyeqooe2• 2 years ago

I so wish they would do that. Apple thinks it's more powerful than government, let's test that theory!

Most people would understand that these huge, aggressive corporates must be brought to heel. The sooner the EU establishes credibility in this respect, the sooner we all win.

ClumsyPilot2• 2 years ago

More likely, Apple needs to withdraw entirely from the EU and see what happens.

This uniquely American type of arrogance where TikTok/Huawei is guilty even if it complies will the laws, and American companies are innocent even if they break all our laws.

There are, I am afraid, only two ways to respond - aggressively or subserviently. As US economy loses its position as the centre of the universe, the second option becomes less appealing.

stale20023• 2 years ago

Well here's another possibility.

What if Apple complied with the law.

They don't want to lose all those sales anyway.

pipo234• 2 years ago

I suppose they could do that, but wouldn't they still need to pay the 1.8B?

[Added] ... And continue to support products and services already sold?

summerlight• 2 years ago

Investors will be very angry and the entire C-suites will be at risk of losing their jobs. They're doing this only because it will maximize their revenue/profit through market control.

ergonaught2• 2 years ago

It’s a FAFO suggestion, nothing more, but I have not seen anyone consider (or care?) whether Apple’s EU customers support the various decisions, which is the point that interests me.

mountainriver• 2 years ago

I may get rid of my iPhone, this is just horrible continued behavior on Apple’s part. Nothing can be worth the damage this is doing to their reputation

FirmwareBurner12• 2 years ago

At least thanks to Unreal engine and their content in the PC space, Epic is big enough to survive this, but think of poor small indie devs who can have their revenue streams shut down at any time because $REASON and have no way of fighting back.

Apple needs to be brought down a peg or two.

bluescrn• 2 years ago

I'd rather people dump Apple products over their anti-repair practices or the whole concept of locked-downd devices tied to monopolistic App Stores, rather than the Apple vs Epic vs EU fight.

lern_too_spel• 2 years ago

This is an Apple vs. developers fight. Epic is just the one spending money on it.

BudaDude2• 2 years ago

I have been feeling the same way. Apple has been dropping the ball a lot lately. This whole malicious compliance thing they are doing with the EU is childish. Apple 100% should have lost the court case to Epic the same way Google did.

usrusr• 2 years ago

When your stock is traded like the stock of a company with a stranglehold on a huge market it can press seemingly at will, what can you do other than pressing?

Publicly traded companies are mercenaries bound to the highest bidder, nothing they can do about it.

wigster• 2 years ago

apple cars, vr, losing out big time in china. cheerio tim time?

sircastor2• 2 years ago

Tim Cook has overseen Apple's most profitable years - It makes and continues to make obscene piles of money. Why would the board or the shareholders vote him out?

If things go sideways, sure. But things haven't gone sideways. Day traders freak out about news stories, but the stock price has been a pretty solid to-the-right-and-up.

nyxtom• 2 years ago

What even is a phone in the future anyway.

granzymes• 2 years ago

In the past, Epic has denigrated Apple’s developer terms, including the Developer Program License Agreement (DPLA), as a prelude to breaking them.
Given that pattern, Apple recently reached out directly to Mr. Sweeney to give him an opportunity to explain why Apple should trust Epic this time and allow Epic Games Sweden AB to become an active developer. Mr. Sweeney’s response to that request was wholly insufficient and not credible.

From Apple’s letter to Epic.

MR4D3• 2 years ago

Maybe Epic should just come out with their own Android-based phone and ignore Apple.

EDIT - I don’t mean this flippantly. I really think a gaming phone made by Epic would be fantastic. They have some great games that I enjoy, including Rocket League and Fortnite. Would love to see what they could do with a phone, especially how well they did on GM’s Hummer ( https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/7/21506572/epic-games-unrea... )

screamingninja2• 2 years ago

Something like Steam Deck? https://www.steamdeck.com/

MR4D3• 2 years ago

No. A phone.

EDITED to add for context:

Here's my deal - we're locked into 2 basic choices. The choices are fine, but it's like a Ford vs Chevy thing - boring.

I really want someone else to com into the market and make a phone feel special. Like when Air Jordan's first came out. Nobody thought about a shoe as being special before that.

Red had a phone, but didn't execute as well as I would have expected. Image what a phone would be like from Epic - fantastic UI, great feel in your hand. Like Fortnite? cool, they have one that looks like it came right out of the game. Like Rocket League? Cool - they have one for that too.

RandallBrown• 2 years ago

If Microsoft would have called their Windows Phone the Xbox Phone and focused it on gaming, I think they would have been way more successful.

MR4D3• 2 years ago

I think they still could. . . And still might.

I have to think that somewhere in a lab they have an android device with all the Google bits removed. I truly believe that Edge is a test run for this, and given how successful it has become, they will press further.

Embrace & extend never dies.

ProfessorLayton• 2 years ago

Really curious what Apple's end game is here, they must know that being this anticompetitive will bite them pretty hard in the long term.

davidg109• 2 years ago

Apple makes incredible products, but their teenage angst corporate temper tantrums are vomit inducing. Might be time to vote with my dollar on other tech.

leecommamichael• 2 years ago

Didn’t they only terminate the Swedish account?

supermatt• 2 years ago

So apple are now deciding who can be an App Store. That’s not going to work out well for them.

vld_chk• 2 years ago

Idk, subjectively it feels as end of Apple we all know.

Clear stagnation in terms of innovation; no new fundamental interface (no smart glasses, AVP looks too expensive and too narrow); abandon on car project; AI for Apple is nowhere close to others; sales decrease; Apple Watch sales ban; Epic Games court; DMA — after taking a leading position at the market, Apple clearly fails to offer anything new and instead invest too much resources into protecting their market position.

Wonder what will replace Apple. Will we see a slow stagnation here or radically new interface for human-to-technology interaction is around the corner?

codingcodingboy3• 2 years ago

Maybe they should make cars.

jesselawson• 2 years ago

Apple has consistently made laptops and development environments that creative types enjoy and admire. It’s too mad our economic system is setup to only care about infinite growth and monopolization at Apple’s size. It’s too bad just “being a great maker of great tools for great people” isn’t possible when you’re publicly traded.

nozzlegear8• 2 years ago

AVP looks too expensive and too narrow

I bought the first generation and agree with these points, but boy is it really cool tech. I thought it’d be super gimmicky and dumb before I got it, I changed my mind within a couple of hours after using them.

I ended up sending mine back, but only because I bought them to develop vOS apps for it and simply don’t have the time after taking on a new client. I really hope they make a second generation and continue improving on it, I already know I’m going to buy it.

(I know it’s ironic hoping they’ll make more of their fledgling platform after I just sent mine back and potentially helped kill it, but I really loved it.)

hnfong2• 2 years ago

Idk, subjectively it feels as end of Apple we all know.

You do rationally realize the cognitive dissonance in your subjective feeling, right?

A company that is accused of abusing their market position, competitors trying to break into their platform, isn't an indicator that the company is close to an end at all.

If it were really the end of Apple, you'd see something like "Epic withdraws legal claims against Apple due to dwindling interest in developing for iOS platforms".

vardump2• 2 years ago

I've spent ~$7000 on Apple products last year.

I think it'll be $0 this year and going forward.

Tired of this kind of crap. (Not only this, but Apple's behavior with EU, etc.)

bjornlouser• 2 years ago

Je suis Sweeney!

-- sent from my iPhone

sergiotapia• 2 years ago

I ditched iphones for a Google Pixel 6 when it came out.

Ditched my macbook for a Windows 10 beast machine running linux mint in VMWare Player. Flawless.

I had _zero_ issues ditching apple. Especially since everyone I speak to uses Whatsapp anyways. This "green bubble" thing never affected me.

EricE• 2 years ago

Who you going to replace them with that's better/same level of ecosystem/user experience? Genuinely interested.

vardump2• 2 years ago

Frankly me too.

vlod3• 2 years ago

I use terminal, vscode and firefox, docker to do development. Linux (specifically popos) works well for that and a lot of other stuff.

For that I use a Thinkpad X1 Carbon.

drooopy2• 2 years ago

I am an Apple customer because I have loved using a Mac since before Steve Jobs returned to Apple and made it a trendy luxury item. But I can no longer support with my money "90s Microsoft 2.0".

dang3• 2 years ago

(via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729, but we merged that thread hither)

AnonC• 2 years ago

Though I’m in favor of forcing Apple to do certain things (right to repair, sideloading apps, and more), this is one case where I can’t take a side. Epic (and actually Tim Sweeney), for all its bravado and underdog pretense, is a bad actor, a loose cannon and a dishonest player. Epic Games and Tim Sweeney thrive on drama and theatrics, and somehow seem to be driven solely against Apple while not batting an eyelid when it comes to other platforms where it pays 30% (or more?), such as Xbox, PlayStation and Nintendo. [1] I have no sympathy for Epic Games as long as Tim Sweeney and his drama goes on. This doesn’t mean that I believe Apple to be innocent. Tim Sweeney has a grudge against Apple. I don’t see anything more in the history of this saga.

[1] https://daringfireball.net/2020/08/sweeney_hand_waving_game_...

cuban-frisbee• 2 years ago

Sweeney is the only one that seems to have the guts, the smarts and is willing to put his money where his mouth is against Apple and other bad actors. Whataboutism about console gaming is frankly laughable as is the notion that they have to fix all problems by the themselves at once or none of them count.

ynniv• 2 years ago

Isn't Apple providing side loading for customers in Europe now? Sure, Apple is being petty, but I thought this is was what Epic asked for. Can anyone ELI5 this one?

foggymtndrifter• 2 years ago

All side loaded apps still need to go through Apple notarization. It's malicious compliance from Apple.

pornel3• 2 years ago

No. There is no sideloading at all.

Apple very begrudgingly allowed creation of alternative AppStores (marketplaces) instead, which are still completely under Apple’s technical control, and still go through Apple’s review.

Apple requires having a 1 million dollar credit line to allow opening a 3rd party AppStore, so consumers or small devs can’t just bypass Apple’s AppStore.

gray_-_wolf4• 2 years ago

You still need a developer account and application to be signed by apple in order to be able to side load it. Whether that requirement is legal remains to be seen.

solarkraft• 2 years ago

They aren't actually allowing sideloading, but the ability to install "marketplaces", which can only be provided by verified developers under very strict rules regarding government. It's a huge disappointment.

plussed_reader• 2 years ago

I would think this is a money game where it will force Epic to become a European developer/entity instead of just an American developer, to access the DMA market.

More hoops and more BS is entirely on brand for Apfel in this exercise.

kylerush• 2 years ago

There seems to be a libertarian slant to a lot of the comments on this. It reads as if most people believe they have an inalienable right to extend Apple’s products. In other words, it doesn’t matter what I do, what I say, or how I treat Apple, I have an inalienable right to extend their platform. A pretty bold take in my opinion.

xNeil• 2 years ago

i mean, sounds fine? if i buy a physical product, i must be able to do whatever i want to do with it, no? who are apple to decide what i do with a device once i own it?

kllrnohj• 2 years ago

It's not Apple's platform. It's mine. My device, my platform. I allow Apple to install software on my device, but it's my device. I own it, full stop.

This whole idea that a company can sell you a product but still retain exclusive ownership and decision making over that thing that they sold you needs to die. It's such an abusive relationship and deeply anti-user.

geodel3• 2 years ago

deeply anti-user.

You mean anti-owner, since you really own the device

jmull2• 2 years ago

I wouldn't pick a side in this one... it looks to me like there are two bad guys here, and I hope they both get taken down a peg.

Andrew_nenakhov• 2 years ago

Dismantling Apple's Appstore monopoly would positively impact the freedom of users and developers.

jmull2• 2 years ago

Agreed.

And Epic is an actively deceptive business partner that forms agreements with the intent to break them.

Both bad, as I say.

redbell• 2 years ago

PG said that a previous tweet by Tim Sweeney is one of the reasons..

https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1765431238985187525

chatmasta4• 2 years ago

According to Epic, Apple reportedly told the company that it’s “a threat to their ecosystem.”

Note they're not saying Epic is a security threat or has a product that endangers Apple customers. Instead, they're calling Epic, the company itself, a threat to Apple's ecosystem.

This quote makes sense, if you replace "ecosystem" with "monopoly."

wolpoli• 2 years ago

To be more specific, it's likely that Epic is a threat to Apple's business/technical ability to steer/shape/profit from the iOS ecosystem.

pmontra• 2 years ago

Actually, replace "ecosystem" with "revenues".

andsoitis2• 2 years ago

I think it is <insert-expletive> to make Epic out to be the villain.

At the same time:

This quote makes sense, if you replace "ecosystem" with "monopoly."

In the US, iPhone has a 57.93% market share. As of 2023, Android has a 70.29% global market share.

chatmasta4• 2 years ago

They have a monopoloy on distribution channels of iOS Apps. There is no way, other than through the App Store, for a developer to sell software to the owner of an Apple device such that the owner can execute that software on their own device.

Findeton7• 2 years ago

It's a subjective monopoly. In fact everything is a subjective monopoly. And nothing is.

Some people just like regulating everything.

Findeton7• 2 years ago

Monopolies are not a bad thing, except when they are enforced with violence=government.

Fortunately no one forces you to use Apple's products.

ckcheng• 2 years ago

I wonder why Apple doesn't open up. Or else just switch to a Costco model where membership means they get to dictate what’s sold at what margin using which credit card network?

Is the end game to force regulation on everyone (Google, etc) and then switch to a Costco model themselves?

akmarinov• 2 years ago

Money.

Why give up 30% of everything on your store?

labster• 2 years ago

In the immortal words of Rod Blagojevich, “I've got this thing and it's fucking golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for fuckin' nothing. I'm not gonna do it.”

realusername4• 2 years ago

That hot tempered decision will cost them a lot of money. They were already in a bad situation for essentially making the alternative stores worthless but cutting off Epic over a few tweets will further cement the idea that there's a competition problem going on here, this is also directly contradicting the DMA.

etimberg• 2 years ago

Sounds like the EU needs to give Apple the Microsoft treatment and threaten to split it apart. Have the App store business be completely separate from everything else

repelsteeltje2• 2 years ago

Last I heard, Microsoft is doing great and still in one piece.

kyriakos2• 2 years ago

After changing course cause of legal troubles they caused by believing they are above the law

casperb• 2 years ago

I just finished the last episode of The Talk Show podcast, where John Gruber says that Apple doesn’t hold a grudge and is only doing things because they make business sense. He said that because Apple approved Epic’s account and that they would be allowed their own App Store. I already that it was a bad take, but this shows it.

davely2• 2 years ago

I find that Gruber occasionally has some interesting insight but it’s often hard to take him seriously these days — he’s effectively an unofficial PR outlet for Apple.

(Fun fact: he co-created Markdown with Aaron Swartz)

Edit: Swartz not Schwartz

kccqzy• 2 years ago

It's a sad evolution. Gruber's blog is entitled Daring Fireball and in his early blogging days in the '00s he was in fact pretty daring and posted a lot of criticisms of Apple. Over time he had so thoroughly assimilated himself into the Apple way of thinking that he seldom notices whatever Apple is doing wrong.

harrisi• 2 years ago

Swartz. Aaron Schwartz was in Mighty Ducks and Heavyweights.

kemayo2• 2 years ago

He's pretty critical of them in some areas. Mostly in developer-relations these days -- he doesn't like the anti-steering App Store rules, and Apple's general "we provided the successful platform; your apps contribute nothing to that" attitude.

DHPersonal• 2 years ago

John Gruber @gruber@mastodon.social ‪@stroughtonsmith @macrumors So much for my theory that Apple was making nice with Epic.‬ https://mastodon.social/@gruber/112050165133240095

threeseed11• 2 years ago

There is no point having rules and contracts if you aren't going to enforce them.

It is inarguable that Epic broke the terms of the contract. They could've simply done what Spotify and others did and lobby governments whilst honouring the terms of the agreement that they voluntarily chose to sign. Instead Epic chose to be petty in order to prove a point.

Is Spotify banned ? No. And they are 100x a competitor to Apple than Epic is.

Keyframe• 2 years ago

Apple doesn’t hold a grudge

Nvidia

015a2• 2 years ago

This is egregious and deeply disturbing behavior from Apple. At this point it feels wrong to own an iPhone. I'm at a loss for words describing what Tim and their leadership team has done to this company that I used to admire so much.

api2• 2 years ago

They're addicted to bad revenue here.

Once they started with the App Store revenue and especially taking a cut on all transactions, they were locked in. It's a public company so number must always go up. If number doesn't go up, executives are gone and replaced with people who will make number go up. That means it's impossible for them to back out of the App Store revenue channel. They'll have to be forced out by government action, in which case they can write it off as unavoidable and appease the shareholders and maybe not be replaced.

The basic principle here is that when a company takes on a revenue stream, it becomes addicted to it and it's incredibly difficult to give that revenue stream up even if it's destructive to other aspects of the company or brand. This is very closely related to the innovators' dilemma. In fact that might be seen a special case of the same failure mode.

If Apple ever goes really into advertising, that'll really be the end of them as a good brand. Advertising revenue destroys everything it touches. It's possible that they could recover from this debacle but a pivot into ads is the end.

disgruntledphd23• 2 years ago

They already have an ads business, fwiw.

chongli• 2 years ago

The issue for Apple is that their hardware business is slowing down due to market saturation. Their recent attempt at growth into a new hardware market (Vision Pro) seems like a huge dud. Their last successful new product was the Watch which at about 100 million sales in total is only half of a single year’s iPhone sales (and likely less profitable).

So where do they go from here?

elevatedastalt4• 2 years ago

Dunno why you are being downvoted. Regardless of what one thinks of Apple charging 30% tax on their dominion, the fact that it's now become a sort of dependency is correct.

Governments have the same problem. Once you start taxing, it becomes hard to give up the revenue stream.

Eric_WVGG• 2 years ago

I just don't understand what Apple expects out of the situation at this point. What's the best-case scenario here, that the EU will say "yeah that checks out" and let Apple have their way after all? This is going to backfire horribly.

pulse7• 2 years ago

Apple just prepared the ground for the next billion dollar EU fine...

notaustinpowers• 2 years ago

The only thing I can think of is that Apple is trying to do whatever it can to continue to generate income from developers to make sure its quarterly reports look good until it has another plan.

In 2023, they processed $89.3bn in IAP, a 2.8% increase from 2022. Their top-grossing app was TikTok with $1.9bn in IAP. At a 30% split that's $520m to Apple. And that's just from one app that doesn't really push IAP as egregiously as games like Fortnite.

I think Apple is trying to ensure a new product cough Apple Vision Pro cough to offset losses from the alternative app stores.

They know the EU won't ever allow them to do what they're currently doing to "comply" with the DMA. But all they have to do is stonewall long enough to Vision Pro or some new service/product/etc to replace the revenue lost from the DMA.

A company failing to meet revenue goals due to governmental compliance? No investor wants to take that sort of gamble, their stock would take a massive hit.

jmole• 2 years ago

Couldn't agree more. I think the iPhone 15 Pro may be my last iPhone. Apple's entire reaction to the DMA has left an incredibly bad taste in my mouth.

I used to think these were my devices, but Apple has been making it crystal clear lately that they consider them to be their devices.

"We own the customer" is the new mantra of Apple.

Maybe it was always that way, with the iPod and iTunes, etc.

Thankfully I've never felt that way when using a Mac.

dzhiurgis• 2 years ago

What you gonna use tho? I've been degoogling and pooling most of services like email to iCloud for a while now. Should I just get rid of smartphone altogether?

burningChrome2• 2 years ago

> but Apple has been making it crystal clear lately that they consider them to be their devices.

This is a great point. The thing that sucks is the market is down to two main phone companies - Apple and Samsung. Unless you're on a carrier where some of the import phones like Xiomi or ZTE work, we're all stuck between two companies who increasingly are abusing their positions in the market because they can.

Apple seems not to care any more about customer sentiment and does things more so for the bottom line than anything else right now. I guess that's what we should've expected when the guy who ran the supply side of the company with an iron fist gets promoted to CEO.

Zambyte8• 2 years ago

The fact that Apple (the 3rd party in the interaction between you and the developer) has a say at all in what people do with their computers at all is already egregious. I couldn't imagine letting someone else control my computers like that.

ApolloFortyNine2• 2 years ago

It's enough of an issue where I honestly don't understand how a single user on a site called 'hacker'news could be okay with it.

Imagine if you couldn't run software of your choosing on Windows either. And the only way to publish an app on Windows was to agree to give Microsoft 30% of everything. That's the exact behavior your enabling by using Apple products.

redder23• 2 years ago

No offense but if this is what broke the camel's back for you then you seem like live in a different planet.

Razengan• 2 years ago

With all the money Epic has spent, and lost, on this, along with the billions they're making from Fortnite and Unreal, they could have made their own phone and platform by now.

throwaway29906• 2 years ago

It would be trash like their EGS. No one would use it.

etchalon2• 2 years ago

Apple is just acting increasingly stupid. There's no word for it.

LightHugger• 2 years ago

I feel strange having watched from afar as apple abused their users over and over, and then see apple users be surprised and horrified at this more recent behavior.

They have not changed one bit. This was always apple, behavior which everyone who purchased their status symbol focused products at insane markups supported.

etchalon2• 2 years ago

Hard disagree on basically everyone you said beyond this move not being too surprising. Apple holds grudges. Always has.

But this is just asking for trouble without any real benefit.

Maybe they want the fight, I guess. But it's a dumb fight.

nozzlegear8• 2 years ago

I feel strange having watched from afar as apple abused their users over and over, and then see apple users be surprised and horrified at this more recent behavior.

I’m deeply ingrained in the Apple ecosystem and feel thoroughly unabused right now. But I’m in the US and only watching this play out with mild amusement and schadenfreude at Tim Epic continuing to give and get the middle finger from Apple.

blashyrk3• 2 years ago

It's only stupid if it results in some kind of consequences. If not, then they are just flexing, and they seem fairly confident that there won't be any significant consequences for this kind of behavior. Whether that's true, or just extreme hubris, remains to be seen.

CatWChainsaw4• 2 years ago

Seems like the message is, sure we lost our case against the EU so we have be more open on the platform/store, but we're just going to ban any developers who even try to take advantage of that. I suppose they're leveraging their duopoly/luxury positions to give everyone the finger. And once again I'm glad I have nothing to do with the Apple ecosystem.

dilap2• 2 years ago

They really seem to be making a mockery of the EU regs here. Will the EU respond quickly and forcefully, or (essentially) admit that Apple is too big to regulate?

CatWChainsaw4• 2 years ago

IMO, little column A, little column B. EU is good about bringing lawsuits, but because of how law works, judgments are delayed, appealed, reduced, etc. Eye-watering fines are watered down and don't end up meaning much. Viewing the Big Tech names as nation-states by virtue of the sheer power they hold cuts through a lot of BS when people wonder why they do any action that might seem mind-boggling. It's because they think they can get away with doing it, and how often are they proven wrong?

rebolek• 2 years ago

The only explanation Apple can give is "Money!!!"

getcrunk• 2 years ago

I wish there was button I could press so the eu/courts would address this immediately. So I don’t have to wait months/years.

arthurofbabylon• 2 years ago

At first I was surprised Epic's shareholders tolerate CEO Tim Sweeney – Epic had this all wrapped up, they got a large portion of what they wanted, but Sweeney just couldn't help but keep the drama going, at risk of their business.

But then I realized that Tim Sweeney owns more than half of Epic. If he wants to risk his company for a fracas/kerfuffle, then that is between him and his minority shareholder.

yokoprime2• 2 years ago

I don't think he's risking anything other than having to pay his team of lawyers. Apple is not a major platform for Epic, in fact earnings from sales outside of Windows and consoles is probably so tiny they wouldn't notice it if it disappeared.

darknavi2• 2 years ago

Apple is not a major platform for Epic

Well it's not a platform for Fortnite at all for the last few years.

justin662• 2 years ago

Literally all of Epic's biggest shareholders are on board with treating the problems with Apple as more than a "kerfuffle." They've attracted quite a bit of investment in spite of the ongoing lawsuits.

fngjdflmdflg3• 2 years ago

Actually I'm sure Tencent is really glad Tim Sweeney is doing this as they make a bunch of games already eg. pubg mobile (partial ownership there I think). Having an alternative story as an option is probably a strategic benefit for them

bsimpson2• 2 years ago

The raw emails are linked at the bottom of the post.

Phil Schiller accuses Epic of intentionally violating its agreements and concludes "Please tell us why we should trust Epic this time." Epic founder Tim Sweeney replies that Epic "will comply" and offers to provide "any specific further assurances."

Finally, Apple's lawyers tell Epic's lawyers that Apple is terminating the account because a judgement in Epic v Apple says they can, and that Tim did't sufficiently plead his case in his reply to Phil.

naet• 2 years ago

There are a lot of conversations about Apple's "monopoly" on smart phones and I always find it so interesting.

I used to use an iPhone, then switched to an android a few years ago, and I felt like there was basically full feature parity between the two of them. I'm not aware of any "killer app" or other use case that elevates one significantly over the other. They both have app stores with all the most popular apps, web browsers, nice cameras, phone calls and messages, etc. So it seems to me like there are plenty of alternatives if you don't want an iPhone that are just as good and often more affordable.

Globally Android has a larger market share than iPhone, but iPhones seem to have a "social" factor that pushes them heavily in certain demographics (particularly any intersection of wealthy, young, and US American). Something about this social factor makes it feel to many people like a complete monopoly with no alternative even though there are tons of alternative phone models made by many other companies.

For me, of course I think it would be great if iPhones were better compatible with things like RCS chat, open app stores, USB instead of proprietary chargers, etc. But I feel like that can all be worked out long term by the market instead of pushing regulation on one specific company. If any of those things bother you just get a non iOS phone, and if they're truly bad things over time more and more people will gravitate away from the company until they change. If Apple wants to make certain decisions around remaining a walled garden I think they should be able to (and there are arguments that their strategy could make their product better for certain audiences rather than worse, even if we might disagree with the take).

honeybadger1• 2 years ago

Apple, not unlike a modern-day ecclesiastical authority, excommunicates a heretic who dares to challenge its scripture.

diebeforei485• 2 years ago

This will not fly in the EU.

I am actually very annoyed about their behavior. My next phone will likely not be an iPhone. All the paid apps are subscription based now anyway, it's quite easy to switch.

sandoze• 2 years ago

Yikes, you might be disappointed:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/google-asks-judg...

I hear Huawei makes nice phones.

whimsicalism6• 2 years ago

android can sideload

batrat• 2 years ago

You can install any store (ex: fdroid, aurora, etc) on Android already.

PreachSoup2• 2 years ago

Android's store management is not different from windows. You can completely ignore it/install your own store/install your own apk. Not sure why people keep bring it up in Apple's case.

I am still waiting for Apple to let me install the real Firefox

unsupp0rted• 2 years ago

I'm totally ok with their behavior. My next phone will likely be an iPhone.

If I wasn't okay with it, then I'd buy one of the multiple other options.

There are alternatives to Android even. They're terrible phones with terrible platforms: that's why people don't want them.

Apple makes an excellent phone with an excellent platform. I'm fine with letting them do that to the maximum degree they're able.

vlod3• 2 years ago

Wondering how this affects Apple employees. Back in the day, working for Apple seemed cool. (Pirate flags on building etc).

Previously MSFT used to be (maybe they've turned that around?) the most hated tech company (becz of their very aggressive attitudes to competitors especially Netscape).

One thing they didn't FU and is represented by the infamous sweaty Balmer video [0] of him shouting "Developers, developers, developers", is pissing of people who build on their platform.

Well Apple seems to have topped that with this and other malicious compliance shenanigans in the EU.

I can't every imagine developing an iOS/native app on that platform going forward.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs

dmitrygr2• 2 years ago

From working at apple, I remember that most engineers just work hard to make good hardware and software. I've heard very few mentions of what anyone outside of apple thinks of it

7moritz7• 2 years ago

You'd assume making good hardware and software requires outside feedback. "Thoughts", one might say.

xk_id• 2 years ago

Apple has been driving developers away for quite some time now

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19966135

mataug• 2 years ago

Wondering how this affects Apple employees. Back in the day, working for Apple seemed cool.

Most employees are trying to pay bills and keep ar roof. Especially in today's tech job market, people are trying to avoid getting laid off. Very few people have the luxury of being able to think about apple seeming like a cool place to work or not.

So I would say this doesn't affect most apple employees in anyway.

jes5199• 2 years ago

well, I've published iOS apps but every time I have to go through the app review process I ask myself: is this really worth it? To have an inscrutable and vaguely hostile process tell me whether my customers are allowed to run my code? Increasingly often, my answer is no. Maybe the fight with Epic doesn't affect me directly, but it's just another thing that colors my impression of the "fairness" of the app store.

wkat42423• 2 years ago

Ummm lol. So now sideloading is allowed (with lots of costs associated mind you) and if someone wants to use it Apple will just kick them off the platform? :')

So first malicious compliance with all the inflated costs and then they don't even allow people to use it. I really hope the EU will crack down on this BS and force Apple to allow real sideloading.

But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago.

tebbers• 2 years ago

There’s no way the EU allows Apple’s interpretation of the DMA after they did this, Apple really made a mistake here. As you say, how can you be sure that alternative app stores won’t just be booted off by Apple for $REASON?

lnxg33k13• 2 years ago

Made a mistake, why? They either comply right away, or just pretend to be deaf with their own interpretation, make Epic sue them again, pull the situation for a few years keep profiting off developers with their 30% rent, maybe at the end of it the EU will fine them some peanut and the rest is just profit, can’t understand what the mistake is here

mike_d2• 2 years ago

how can you be sure that alternative app stores won’t just be booted off by Apple for $REASON?

The EU law allows for consumers to sideload other app stores on hardware they control. It has no provision that compels Apple to continue doing business with a company in their own app store.

Yes, it is a business decision you need to make to offer a sideload app store and opt-out of the Apple app store. Does it suck for Epic? Yes. But this is the path they chose.

Edit: If you read the Apple letter Epic cites it refers to App Store Review Guidelines, clearly they are terminating an App Store developer account. Nothing stops Apple from minting a fresh Developer Account with only Marketplace capabilities if they apply for a Marketplace account.

Narkov• 2 years ago

Just need some context here...one of the biggest companies in the world, ever, with all the financial and legal resources available to them, and you think they aren't playing 5D chess?

epolanski• 2 years ago

I agree the mobile ecosystem is cancerous, I have never given a dime to Apple for anything but their MacBooks for work reasons.

The thing that gets most on my nerves is the ridiculous "protecting users security and privacy".

Because if I go along this line of thinking then the conclusion is that they don't give a damn about it on the Mac line because there I can install what I want.

It's not up to Apple to decide how I use their products and I will never ever buy their phones albeit I need to use one to test mobile websites and applications for work.

ethbr15• 2 years ago

The thing that gets most on my nerves is the ridiculous "protecting users security and privacy".

There's a distinction between "secure for users by default" and "secure from users"

Apple (and Apple fans) really like to muddy the two.

You can build a perfectly secure ecosystem by default... that still has an escape hatch (covered with warnings) that the user retains the right to use.

Apple chose in its mobile ecosystem, and continues to choose, not to do this.

Ergo, what they're really in favor of is "security from users"

PS: To head off the 'users are the most insecure part of a system' apologism, (a) we're talking about personal devices, not managed ones & (b) with great power comes great responsibility.

pjerem3• 2 years ago

But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago.

I love my iPhone and my Mac. They are great devices. I’ve been using Apple products happily despite having pretty few acquaintance with the Apple brand (which I feel incredibly arrogant).

All of those stories about the DMA and the total lack of good faith from Apple when it comes to respect the rules are making me strongly reconsider buying new Apple products in the future. In fact I’m starting to regret my investment in a Air M2 last year because while it’s not new that Apple consider my devices to be their own, they are not even trying to act like it’s not the case anymore. They are actively and publicly fighting against my (their customer) interests.

can16358p2• 2 years ago

Similar here. I like their products, their design and don't have anything better to my needs. I even find some sense about this whole DMA thing to their respect. But their user hostility and "you are wrong we are always right and we never accept that we are wrong" kind of gaslighting attitude of them as a company really makes me lose trust in them as a customer.

While I still use Apple devices, I wouldn't have thought of switching to another ecosystem, say, 8 years ago.

Now, if there was a good alternative, I'd seriously consider.

spease• 2 years ago

They are actively and publicly fighting against my (their customer) interests.

If Apple allowed unrestricted sideloading or third-party app stores, then it loses its leverage to hold apps accountable to any guidelines.

A few major players would switch to using the alternative method (eg Amazon would want to sell digital items and use its own payment system), legitimizing it, and then everyone who wants to ignore the guidelines for less admirable reasons would follow suit.

Less technically savvy users would follow the prompts to install an app with extremely mixed results. And once there's no one way to install apps, it makes it that much harder for them to tell if an app is legitimate or not.

That's maybe fine for more technical users, but for people who just want to use their phone as an appliance rather than verify the chain of trust for an app, there's no discernible benefit. The time required to verify an app is non-negligible, and the risk is pretty much infinite with respect to what information they give it.

And sometimes you don't really have a choice whether to use an app or not. Your employer or locale may make or imply decisions on service providers for you, and the reason for choosing those service providers likely has nothing to do with how their app treats end users. They won't need to clear any quality bar to offer an app at all, and a locked-in customer has less negotiating power than Apple.

Apple has positioned itself as a premium product which is going to make things simpler (ie reducing executive overhead) by making decisions for you. Saying "no" to features to keep things focused for the largest group of users is hard, and those decisions are going to trend towards the largest demographic using the platform, which is probably less-technical users who don't hang out on HN. If you want to customize the platform, then that's Android's competitive edge.

You can even sideload apps with a developer license - that's essentially how UTM is installed: https://docs.getutm.app/installation/ios/

While that does mean you have to put down more $$, it also effectively narrows the people sideloading apps to people who "know what they're doing" (or at least have demonstrated a higher bar of tech-savviness and clicked through more legal waivers)

What do you want to do now that you can't do with the current state of affairs?

nozzlegear8• 2 years ago

They’ve already approved others for third-party App Store implementations:

https://mastodon.social/@rileytestut/112039139930789909

archagon7• 2 years ago

Are any of them game stores?

numbsafari• 2 years ago

Call me when Xbox allows side loading.

drfuzzyness• 2 years ago

It's somewhat locked down as you need to apply with Microsoft for a Developer account, but you can technically sideload UWP apps onto your Xbox hardware by entering Developer Mode. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devk...

It's not convenient and you need to reboot your console to go back to running commercial apps, but it is present. At least it's a one-time payment to get the developer account.

danShumway• 2 years ago

Would anyone who's calling for iPhone sideloading be upset about Xbox sideloading? I wouldn't. By all means, let's regulate both Microsoft and Apple. The more the merrier.

I don't think I've ever looked at a video game console and thought, "I'm sure glad that I can't sideload games onto this." This is a slippery slope that I am happy to go down.

andsoitis2• 2 years ago

This is going to be an epic battle. Speak truth to power.

zengid• 2 years ago

This is some spicy shit from Apple:

“In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them,” Schiller reminds the game maker in the letter dated February 23, 2024. “You also testified that Epic deliberately violated Apple’s rules, to make a point and for financial gain. More recently, you have described our DMA compliance as ‘hot garbage,’ a ‘horror show,’ and a ‘devious new instance of Malicious Compliance.’ And you have complained about what you called ‘Junk Fees’ and ‘Apple taxes.”

pavlov2• 2 years ago

Somehow I doubt that the EU competition authority will appreciate Apple’s logic that criticizing their implementation of pro-competition regulation is valid grounds for preventing a competitor from accessing said implementation.

It’s like if your parents forced you to give a slice of your birthday cake to your little brother, and in spite you intentionally cut him a slice with no frosting. When he complains, you go: “No cake for you then!”

ineedaj0b3• 2 years ago

but epic was spitting on the cake. neither party is holy here

plandis• 2 years ago

In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them

That sounds like a legitimate reason to not do business with Epic to me?

archagon7• 2 years ago

If I'm an app developer, am I not allowed to complain about Apple's policies on social media?

jarsin2• 2 years ago

I have seen quotes from execs that they heavily frown upon devs publicly criticizing them.

tveita• 2 years ago

At one point the official App Store guidelines outright included a threat to not complain publicly about Apple's policies, because why not.

"If your app is rejected, we have a Review Board that you can appeal to. If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps."

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1580732/000119312514...

They may have removed the text but there is still the silent understanding that they hold grudges.

It's incredibly petty and other companies should take lesson. Oil companies should refuse to sell you gas if you talk about global warming. Musk should disable your Tesla if you own him on Twitter.

jarsin2• 2 years ago

Haven't seen much discussion about Unreal Engine here.

Epic stated in court filings that it would consider Unreal a failed business if it lost the ability to maintain unreal for ios.

Many 3d enterprise apps need to run on ipads. This is hughe blow to unreal.

aurareturn• 2 years ago

They f'ed around and found out.

seydor• 2 years ago

What a monster big tech has become.

lnxg33k13• 2 years ago

It is probably a good description of what society has become, there are a lot of people who go on repeating that these big tech are just corporations for profit and don’t have to signal any good intention, because it doesn’t make them any profit, and being bad doesn’t make them lose any profit, because we’ve become just a bunch of ignoring consumers going after the next gadget blindly, these companies are shit, because it doesn’t cost them anything anymore

What I keep wondering is why iSheeps don’t complain, like they’re the ones who are buying these overpriced crap, then being squeezed of 30% every time they get an app, who they think is going to pay for the apple tax at the end of the day

idle_zealot2• 2 years ago

What I keep wondering is why iSheeps don’t complain

Because the costs and detriments are obscured, dispersed, and nebulous. The consumers here are largely boiled frogs who don't know what they're missing. If users were used to an open system; an app store that functioned as an intuitive frontend for multiple distribution channels, a messaging app that supported all the protocols their friends and family use and seamlessly joined their conversations, a social media app that aggregated all the content from the people in their lives and creators they follow, and documents/photos/etc that sync across all of their devices. And then Apple et al took that all away; now you can only have apps we approve of, now all of your chats are split between platform apps with UIs that compete for your attention and try to upsell you features, now you have to use the Twitter app to read tweets (and see our ads), Instagram to see your friends' posts their (and our ads), YouTube to see new videos (and our ads), Twitch to watch people live (and our ads), oh, and also now all of your photos only sync to some of your other devices (the ones we sold you). Then you'd see outrage and indignation. iSheep don't know what is being kept from them, don't understand how cohesive and empowering a digital interface to the world should be. They have been trained not to expect a User Agent, but instead an appliance that allows them access to little islands and digital fiefdoms. And it isn't just Apple device users that are subjected to this. Apple is the most rigid in licking down their computers, but all major platforms add friction and roadblocks meant to discourage users from owning and tailoring their systems.

anigbrowl2• 2 years ago

'You get in the car to go to the store. The car drives you to church instead, because the store has mysteriously exploded.'

https://avaruusmies.com/jokes/if-operating-systems-ran-your-...'

dann0• 2 years ago

First, it’s weird that anyone would take the side of Epic in any argument.

Second, it’s obvious that no one had actually read the article. Epic admitted that they have deliberately broken the App Store rules. That’s enough to have anyone sanctioned in any system.

Apple are certainly not unimpeachable here, but this blind hatred of Apple is out of control.

At least get the facts close to right before spewing your uninformed BS.

kanwisher• 2 years ago

Epic broke the rules 3 years ago, they were reinstated recently cause of the european union decision. They haven't done anything to break the rules except write a tweet complaining about apple. I don't see how apple has any footing in this argument

ineedaj0b3• 2 years ago

epic is being a dick. you don't usually be a dick like this and expect zero repercussions.

this is akin to apple and samsung making up but one party or both parties running to the media and calling each other a 'ch*nk, slant eyes' or whatever colorful language Samsung would paint the american apple...

you can insult in business speak! it's common, but epic decided on normal speak --- is it because sweeney is pulling an Elon? Or is this a sign there are others movements the public is not aware that epic is doing? I would bet on the latter.

I don't think this is a big deal. But I do wonder if fortnite is struggling more than expected and maybe there's an options play I should begin looking into

zmmmmm5• 2 years ago

In some ways it makes me question if it's impossible to have one without the other - can you have a company that is as obsessive about quality as Apple at the same time as one that won't attempt to exert monopolistic control over its whole ecosystem? Are these two sides of the same coin?

I'd like to embrace something like the Vision Pro. But as long as it's an iPad strapped to your face fully locked to this controlled ecosystem that I fundamentally disagree with, I can't stomach it. There's something visceral about giving a company that exerts this obnoxious level of control complete control of every photon entering your eyeballs.

So Apple, in case you ever care, you are at -1 Vision Pro users.

onlyrealcuzzo• 2 years ago

But this isn't about quality at all.

It's about Apple trying to milk the system for all it's worth.

You can absolutely build a great product w/o trying to maximize profits to the extreme. That's just frowned upon in the current business world.

mvdtnz• 2 years ago

Quality and openness are not in tension at all. I can buy cheap third party brake pads for a BMW, it doesn't make the OEM any less "obsessive" about quality.

echelon4• 2 years ago

Apple views every instruction executing on iPhone as something they own, control, and tax.

It'd be cute if iPhone was a toy used by a million people. However, mobile computing has become a cornerstone of modern communications and societal function. You use these devices to book flights, buy goods, order food (at restaurants), date, do banking, send texts, emails, -- literally everything.

And Apple controls and taxes all of it. All the innovation. All the connections. Everything.

And they control how you write and deploy that software. It's a game of constantly jumping through hoops and stressing out over release trains.

With a press of a button, a change in policy, Apple can nuke your product from orbit. And there's not a thing you can do.

And Google, even with their "unlocked APK installs", isn't really any different.

This is a new kind of monopoly. A solid chunk of the connective tissue of our planet and species is controlled, taxed, and ruled over by two overlord companies.

I am so glad the Internet itself isn't like this. Except, these devices practically are the internet for many or most folks. So these to, in a way, do control and tax the internet.

makeitdouble4• 2 years ago

An obsession over quality would have Apple open the door to better audio services like Spotify to integrate with the phone's audio database for instance. Or have Kindle like apps let their user have the better purchasing experience. Or better browsers to have deeper system integration. Better messaging platforms interoperate with iMessage. A 3.5mm jack to have the best latency and highest potential audio quality. The list goes on and on.

Apple values quality, but not above everything else. This is obvious and totally normal for a company, it's just weird it bears repeating so much.

zmmmmm5• 2 years ago

Yeah it's a great point. In some ways here we are seeing the exact illustration of that point. If they only cared about user experience and quality they wouldn't sacrifice their user's interests by forcing them through convoluted processes to buy content outside their own store. That's far from a high quality experience. So they value quality highly but it's a distant second to their own desire for control. They still present a very thin veil of pretending this is in their user's interests, but they are barely trying any more.

jamiedumont2• 2 years ago

John Gruber's take:

https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_acco...

popcalc• 2 years ago

Hypothetically, what if a multinational like Apple just doesn't pay the fines, assuming they have no subsidiary presence? Will they go after their EU-resident payment processors and infra providers?

Apple's market cap is important enough to the U.S. economy that I wouldn't be surprised if our intelligence community sabotages the DMA. We've done this for Boeing, why can't we do it here?

https://www.economist.com/special-report/2003/06/12/airbuss-...

SSLy• 2 years ago

Apple has enough subsidies in EU, starting with 5G modem developers purchased from Intel.

jasonlfunk• 2 years ago

https://twitter.com/aarongraves/status/1765441652120834112

Apple’s justification isn’t too unreasonable.

nojvek• 2 years ago

Meanwhile US FTC is totally asleep at the wheel.

What is Lina Khan even doing?

Apple is clearly being a bully in daylight.

brikym3• 2 years ago

This is why I sold my APPL stock a few weeks back. The experience on iPhone is shit. The web is broken on Safari. They broke PWAs. The vision pro is not a big hit. The notification system on MacOS is a poor experience as it gets in my way all the time. Apple want to extort devs to build apps. The arm macbook chips are amazing but that's old news now. Too much abuse of their customers and not much innovation. It has since slid 10% and I'm not surprised.

ectospheno2• 2 years ago

I love my iphone more than any other tech device I own. Can you elaborate on "The experience on iPhone is shit"? Seems like hyperbole to me.

ed_mercer• 2 years ago

Macbooks are years ahead of the competition though. I doubt you can name one laptop that comes even close in terms of build quality, performance and battery life. There’s just no alternative.

tatrajim2• 2 years ago

The vision pro is not a big hit.

You have verified sales statistics? Why are users around the world clamoring for vision pros in their countries? Why are Chinese entrepreneurs renting out vision pros by the hour?

My wife and I marvel at the vision pro experience.

https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-vision-pro-china-renta....

MikusR• 2 years ago

Sony didn't pay for them to do anything in this case.

textadventure• 2 years ago

Actual source: https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/apple-terminated-e...

paulddraper2• 2 years ago

This is the tweet that Apple cited as warranting removal from the App Store:

Apple leadership faces some massive decisions in the coming weeks as the contradictions between their stated principles and the intended and actual consequences of their present policies are reckoned with: the app store monopoly, the digital goods payments monopoly, the tax, the suppression of true information about competing purchasing options, the blocking of competing web browser engines and outright destruction of web apps.
It doesn’t have to be this way. Apple is a few bold and visionary decisions away from being the company they once were and that they still advertise themselves to be: beloved brand to consumers, partner to developers, and overlord to none. [1]

Damn, that's probably the least caustic tweet I've ever read on Twitter...

Ruthless.

[1] https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/176224372553353258...

jamiedumont2• 2 years ago

I was expecting a full on rage-tweet too. Must have hit one of Apples sore spots.

turboturbo• 2 years ago

Gruber has a good take on this: [1]

That Tim Sweeney tweet cited as an example doesn’t seem out of line to me. [...] Apple ought to stick to Epic’s deliberate breaking of the App Store rules with Fortnite back in 2020. It’s not even in dispute that they flagrantly broke the rules then. If Apple wants to make that a “lifetime” ban, they should just say so.
Citing recent tweets, like Sweeney’s, that are simply critical — even scathingly critical (or to borrow Schiller’s term, “colorful”) — just makes it look like Apple’s policy is that if a developer criticizes the App Store’s rules, Apple will punish them for speaking out. I don’t think that’s Apple’s policy at all, but some people think it is, and this situation with Epic just reinforces that.

[1] https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_acco...

throwaway29906• 2 years ago

Na. Not a good take. Apple already said the reason was because they had revoked epics account for breaking rules and did so after being made aware of the account from Timmy boys tweets.

Anything else is just Timmy adding fuel to the fire which reinforces apples decision to not allow epic to have an account.

Timmy is desperately trying to become steam.

smoldesu7• 2 years ago

Must be a rough news cycle for you, this morning.

fennecbutt11• 2 years ago

Why is it okay for Apple to ban Epic but allow other devs when it would likely be illegal for Samsung to refuse to sell displays to Apple but sell them to other manufacturers?

ksec2• 2 years ago

would likely be illegal for Samsung to refuse to sell displays to Apple but sell them to other manufacturers?

Not entirely sure why that would be illegal? You can argue Apple cant do that because there are only two Smartphone ecosystem. But there are plenty of OLED display supplier out there.

fennecbutt11• 2 years ago

There are, but none are as desirable as Samsung. If Apple wanted it to, it could fall under refusal to deal, Apple are very good at twisting courts to their advantage.

Remember when I think it was iPhone 11 or something, they had to use LG and Samsung screens to meet demand, but the consumer reaction was for people desperately trying to hunt down units with a Samsung screen because the quality was noticeably better.

Samsung is probably Apple's biggest competitor, you can bet that they would most certainly rather pay LG, or literally anybody other than Samsung if they could, right?

wtallis2• 2 years ago

Samsung could probably get away with not selling displays to Apple if they had successfully sued Apple for breach of contract related to selling displays to Apple. But it's a lot more plausible that Samsung would still want to take Apple's money even if their relationship were worse.

scotty792• 2 years ago

Customer! We won't sell you electricity even if you abide by our stated arbitrary rules because we frankly don't like you and you've said mean things about us.

elephantum• 2 years ago

Interesting, is there a possibility of something like class-action where iPhone owners sue Apple for restricting access to Fortnite? I bet there should be a plenty of angry gamers.

leptons• 2 years ago

Apple doing Apple things.

Grimblewald• 2 years ago

more empty words from the king of the glasscastle

Arnt• 2 years ago

Apple wanting a cut of everything is… well, it's nothing new anyway. We all have our opinions about that, and this event isn't going to change anyone's mind about that.

Apple not trusting Epic is another, and the wording suggests that Apple thinks third parties would agree. What's that about?

TheLoafOfBread3• 2 years ago

Apple seems to be very scared that Epic's App Store might have been working. So much so, that they are going to risk another huge fine from EU.

chrisjj• 2 years ago

Perheps Apple judges the fine less than the likely loss the the Epic store.

swat535• 2 years ago

In other news, Apple continues its quest of suicide.

I can't decide who do I hate more? Epic, desperately attempting to portray their acts as Holy sacrifices by being martyred in the hands of blood thirsty, evil Apple corporation or perhaps Apple double downing with malicious compliance, scummy tactics and lording their mob-boss like attitude towards EU and its citizens?

Meanwhile people here are arguing over which sport team they belong to rather than the actual issue at hand which is the fact that computing ownership is being taken away from normal people by tech companies and frankly all of them are at fault (Amazon, Google, Apple, Epic, Ubisoft,..).

You no longer own anything, you have to rent it and smile. You are prohibited from modifying the devices you purchase or even attempt to repair it. Your movies and music libraries can be removed by the whims of the corporation and your books can be deleted should an executive feel like it does not align with the DEI flavor of de jours

My point is this, computing is no longer a niece for nerds and people literally have their lives tied to these systems and devices. We are in serious trouble if strong laws and regulations are not implemented (not only within EU but frankly everywhere) to prevent these corporations taking away people's rights, privacy and freedoms.

I don't know how this will pan out but the silver lining is that it may start a discussion at the world stage regarding these issues.

CatWChainsaw4• 2 years ago

Things will have to get a lot bleaker before they can even stand a chance of getting better.

miga• 2 years ago

Apple is a monopolist on a service that is public.

Termination of developer account in this case merits FTC action.

Copernicron2• 2 years ago

Citation needed.

Apple is not a monopolist. The judge in the Epic Games suit even said so[0]. It also isn't a public service. It's a private service operated by a private company where you have to pay to play. And part of paying means agreeing to certain terms and conditions before you're allowed access. Violating that agreement is grounds for termination of your access.

[0]https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036043886/apple-fortnite-epi...

erichocean• 2 years ago

by a private company

Apple is, in fact, a public company.

As a US-based company, there are many things that Apple is not able to do——for example, they cannot refuse to sell to Black people, despite violating Apple's freedom to "associate" with whoever they want, for whatever "private" reason they may have.

The US government can decide that Apple must provide equal access to all of its citizens, and in fact, the 14th Amendment and the various Civil Rights acts that it enables seems to require that every company that sells "to the public" treat members of the public equally.

croes• 2 years ago

Pretty bad timing of Apple if they tried to avoid to look like hindering competition.

hipadev232• 2 years ago

We need some competition in the mobile/tablet space. Apple hardware and performance is incredible. Google is inept at best and getting worse.

hn_throwaway_992• 2 years ago

Google is inept at best and getting worse.

Hard disagree. I've used Pixel phones for years and they're generally great phones. Biggest previous complaint was their software upgrade support window was too short, but now they offer 7 years of upgrades.

hipadev232• 2 years ago

Pixel phones imo are like gaming on linux. Yes it’s passable, yes it’s getting better, but if you’re fooling yourself if you think it’s comparable to gaming on Windows.

throwaway29906• 2 years ago

MS threw in the towel unfortunately. Now we are stuck with Apple and trash. People desperately cling onto this false ideology that Android is good and Apple is bad when they are at fault for ignoring Windows Phone which was better with their excuses that “I need thousands is fart apps or I can’t use windows phone”

mschuster913• 2 years ago

when they are at fault for ignoring Windows Phone which was better

Hell no it wasn't. The UI/UX was a complete unmitigated disaster, the choice of device models was ... very limited, and barely anyone made apps for it, much less games, with Microsoft not doing nearly enough to woo developers over.

Apple and Android, in contrast, had a decent UI/UX, healthy app stores, and Android a wide ranging hardware selection from "too bad to put it in a bargain bin" to "holy smokes people actually spend that much money on a phone that's not Apple?".

randmeerkat3• 2 years ago

MS threw in the towel unfortunately.

I’m surprised Microsoft isn’t making a second go for a phone actually. With all of their WSL work, they could release a Linux / Windows phone and say this is like the original PC, but also a phone, install what you want on it, and also it integrates seamlessly with Azure for power users that want to program on their phone, and also integrates with AD for Microsoft enterprises focused on securing their corporate devices, not to mention the Office Apps and so on. They could even partner with Valve and release the Steam store on their phone, it could be similar to the Steam Deck, but a phone also… Not to mention the possible integrations with ChatGPT as a voice assistant and all of the benefits that come with that.

TLDR; the phone market is ripe to be disrupted and Microsoft is the best positioned to do so.

lmm2• 2 years ago

The "developers developers developers developers" company did an incompatible rewrite of their API what, 4x over? At one point even Osborneing themselves, announcing the new incompatible version of Windows Phone just before putting out the first devices that used the current version. You can only screw over your app makers so many times; sure you may not need thousands of apps, but Windows Phone didn't have YouTube, didn't have WhatsApp; at some point it's just untenable.

tailspin2019• 2 years ago

But Apple told Ars that Epic Games Sweden's access to a developer account was granted through a "click through" agreement that was not evaluated by Apple management.

I’ve never heard this type of argument before. Presumably Apple considered their “click through agreement” suitable for developers to “click through” and agree to.

concinds4• 2 years ago

It means Apple would never have approved the Epic Sweden account if management had known, and for the past 3 weeks they were just looking for excuses to backtrack.

Which is supported by the fact that they justified the new ban with "they'd just break our terms again!" If you really believed that, Apple, you'd wait, and ban Epic Games Sweden after they broke your terms, which minimizes legal risk. They don't believe their own FUD.

rdtsc2• 2 years ago

"Apple is retaliating against Epic for speaking out against Apple’s unfair and illegal practices, just as they’ve done to other developers time and time again," Epic said in its statement today.

The retaliation is shady, but is the retaliation illegal? Even if a whistleblower would show an Apple internal conversation that looks like "Let's retaliate against Epic", the fine print everyone probably has some "we can terminate the account for any reason" clause, which would include retaliation as well?

warkdarrior• 2 years ago

DMA requires that (stated informally) large enough online marketplaces do not retaliate against developers or users without a good cause.

TillE• 2 years ago

The DMA requires that companies like Apple provide fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory access for competition.

The account is really neither here nor there, it's only an issue because Apple has chosen to make it a requirement to distribute an app marketplace. It's pretty clear that they can't legally freeze out Epic as a competitor, but how they solve that is up to them.

rdtsc2• 2 years ago

That's good to hear. Let's hope a whistleblower would step up then, because it looks an awful lot like retaliation.

snowpid• 2 years ago

Retaliation goes against the spirit of the DMA.

havkom• 2 years ago

I think Apple holds developers and third parties to “click through” agreements, so I hope Epic does the same towards Apple (it there has been any breach).

Feels like it is a weak legal argument (even though some jurisdictions may have special “ticket cases” doctrines).

It is not Epics concern if Apple by mistake would enter into a contract with them or not. It is up to Apple to whom they offer such agreements and how.

willsmith722• 2 years ago

I'm so glad a big player is pushing Apple's buttons, but I do wish they didn't have the Tencent, and thus Chinese government, ownership stake.

There's just always going to be a trust issue there

makeitdouble4• 2 years ago

Bringing up the Chinese government card is weird in this specific fight.

Epic could get away with moving their shares from Tencent to somewhere else, Apple can't move their core manufacturing from China to anywhere else.

stevage2• 2 years ago

It strikes me as very weird that it supposedly took weeks for Apple management to learn that Epic had acquired a developer account.

refulgentis2• 2 years ago

Desparate obfuscation in recent PR statements. 24 hours ago, they were more straightforward about ex. getting Epic on a phone call to confirm via voice they'd follow the rules just a few days ago. Back when they were proud of it and thought it'd be smooth sailing.

Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

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