Don't Fly During Ramadan

http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-fly-during-ramadan

by chimeracoder • 13 years ago

2744 958 13 years ago

varnull.adityamukerjee.net

SlyShy• 13 years ago

This is pretty harrowing to read. I've been fortunate enough to never go through any of this (but I don't _look_ like a 'terrorist'). I think America needs to take a hard look at itself and the compromises it has made on civil liberties in the name of this supposed 'safety' that we have now.

waqf4• 13 years ago

If America were capable of doing that in the common-sense manner you imply, it wouldn't need a written constitution.

cpfohl2• 13 years ago

I don't follow...can you connect the dots for me?

drivingmenuts• 13 years ago

Sadly, I lack the faith that such re-examination of our country will happen anytime soon. The inmates are in charge of the asylum and replacing them is going to take decades.

at-fates-hands• 13 years ago

The only way the people take this country back is to start a third party. A REAL third party, somewhere between the moderate liberals and the libertarians.

Without any outside competition, it's just recycling the same type of candidates, with the same policies and with the same disregard for basic civil liberties.

camperman• 13 years ago

Well, the complete collapse of your finances is coming soon. That might do it very thoroughly I think. But there will be some side effects.

lotsofpulp• 13 years ago

I couldn't even make it to the end. Land of the free, home of the brave.

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

Author here. I'd recommend reading until the end - unfortunately, it didn't end when I was released from airport.

toomuchtodo• 13 years ago

The last part made me throw up a bit in my mouth.

ferdo6• 13 years ago

I'm not able to access your site. I'm getting "Unable to connect" in Firefox. The rest of the net is fine.

quantumpotato_2• 13 years ago

Have you considered filing a FOIA for raids on your apartment & the painting?

lambda• 13 years ago

Regarding the last part, have you asked if your landlord (or someone on their behalf) entered your apartment? For a newly rented out apartment, they may have had some kind of work to do or something to check over, and since you were away, may have just let themselves in.

eshvk4• 13 years ago

This makes me so angry. This was one of the reasons I got out of consulting. Every fucking time, I would get an enhanced check. Surprisingly enough, it is nothing new. This is something you face if you are a minority. Hell, I remember a friend from back in Africa whose dad got blacklisted in the nineties because he had a beard. Brown catholic guy with a beard got blacklisted. The only difference now is that at least this guy is articulate enough to vocalize organized discrimination.

And Fuck Jet Blue while we are at it.

acchow• 13 years ago

Fuck Jet Blue. I'm boycotting them.

chiph3• 13 years ago

If I were a consultant today, I'd look into buying an RV. No more dirty hotel rooms or questionable restaurant food. And a much lower chance of a TSA encounter.

rfnslyr2• 13 years ago

"Yeah can you give me about two weeks? I'm going to take my RV."

-1 client. How bout no.

cjrp• 13 years ago

Or a private pilot license.

mundizzle• 13 years ago

no idea if it accomplishes anything, but i wrote a strongly worded complaint through the jetblue website here - http://www.jetblue.com/contact-us/email/concern/

twilightfog2• 13 years ago

Some other options to directly contact JetBlue:

Justin Thompson Director Customer Support Justin.thompson@jetblue.com (801) 449- 2732

David Barger Chief executive officer (718) 286-7900 david.barger@jetblue.com

wwweston• 13 years ago

Possibly worth noting that Jet Blue has had some other problems in their history:

http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2008/09/30/the-video-that-...

http://www.jessdugan.com/blog/13699650/JetBlue-stole-my-came...

lukeqsee5• 13 years ago

Most striking and appalling is the lack of common sense and basic empathy throughout this whole ordeal. For example, he asked multiple times for water, a basic necessity for life, and was denied multiple times. That can't be rationalized in anyway—what did they expect, him to drown someone? His requests as to the nature of his detention were denied. His rights to privacy were utterly ignored. And it goes on…

We need to wake up and see that those that "protect" our safety have reduced us to a state of fear worse than that which we are trying to prevent. We are now being terrorized by our own terrorism prevention. Merely because we happened to clean for bed-bugs and look Middle Eastern.

When will we say enough is enough and do something about it?

eshvk4• 13 years ago

The most popular argument against the TSA that I have heard? They spend too much of their time searching the "wrong people". You know the kind that wouldn't "hurt a fly"? Weasel phrases that in essence mean that the TSA should do what Israel does. Racial profiling. Not that they don't do enough of it. At least on paper, they try to mess up that by searching white grandmas from the midwest and little blonde girls. Of course, the latter is what America complains the most about really.

lukeqsee5• 13 years ago

I've heard the same arguments. Sadly, I have no good answer for how the TSA should do their job. However, treating someone rudely and, to an extent, inhumanly, doesn't fit the bill.

bayesianhorse2• 13 years ago

I admit, the TSA in this case didn't do racial profiling. They skipped that step, and went straight on to "rabid racism".

That they apparently had no idea what a Hindu is doesn't make it one bit better.

cenhyperion2• 13 years ago

You're honestly advocating more racial profiling and propelling us towards the state of racism, hatred, and paranoia of Israel? Really?

clamprecht• 13 years ago

When will we say enough is enough and do something about it?

Sadly, much later than most people think. Look at how long things have gone on in history, before people realized how bad it really was. In hindsight, it's easy, but when everyone just seems to be accepting it, it's not so easy. E.g. Germany in the 1930s.

jonheller2• 13 years ago

Extremely disturbing.

This was well written and very interesting to read, but I do wonder how one could recall the details so specifically?

foobarbazqux12• 13 years ago

Traumatic events can leave much stronger memories, almost like they're burned in.

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

Exactly. Even a couple of nights ago, I had a dream about going through airport security on my return trip (even though I returned over a week and a half ago, with no problem).

jonheller2• 13 years ago

That makes sense. Most of my traumatic memories have been of events that have literally lasted a few seconds, but I can see how the same effect could happen for a longer one.

Guess I should count myself lucky I don't have those!

a-priori• 13 years ago

Yes, they're called flashbulb memories and they feel 'stronger' and more detailed than other memories. People assume that they're therefore accurate, but really, they're no more accurate than other memories.

In fact, the repeated recall can cause them to become distorted over time.

If you want to preserve a memory, write it down immediately while it is fresh. Don't trust that an old memory is accurate.

stevenleeg• 13 years ago

If you were in a similar situation, would you not try to mentally note as many details as possible? Especially if something came of it, you would want to remember as much as possible about the cops who interrogated you, what they asked, etc.

Fuzzwah2• 13 years ago

Memory is a funny thing. You don't recall a snap shot of all the details at once. You start telling a story and during the playback of the memories you'll be able to recall deep details.

Reading On Intelligence really solidified my thoughts on how memory (probably) works.

http://www.amazon.com/On-Intelligence-Jeff-Hawkins/dp/080507...

jff• 13 years ago

Well, as court witnesses often show, you start telling a story and you fill in deep details. Sometimes from memory, sometimes from thin air.

crocowhile• 13 years ago

he probably told this story many other times before

mindslight4• 13 years ago

Just reading this raised my hackles.

The only thing I really feel like saying is "I'm sorry", as you'll never get any sympathy from this system's enablers.

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

Thanks. Even though it's not coming from the TSA/FBI/et al., it means a lot.

rooshdi• 13 years ago

Brave of you to share. Hope you get your photo back soon and some free flyer miles or something. You deserve better. We all do.

crusso• 13 years ago

Some of those enablers are posting in this very thread. Instead of feeling shocked and even somewhat embarrassed at the state of their nation, they denigrate the author's ordeal - minimizing his trauma, denying his mental recall, and ultimately blaming him for causing a TSA test to issue a false positive... all while ignoring the common courtesy that should have been afforded to the accused. Give the guy a drink of water. Treat him with respect. Get him on another flight. Notify him that you searched his apartment.

It's all sad and disgusting.

fsckin• 13 years ago

In all my life, I have only felt that same chilling terror once before - on one cold night in September twelve years ago, when I huddled in bed and tried to forget the terrible events in the news that day, wondering why they they had happened, wondering whether everything would be okay ever again.

Wow... just wow.

lukeqsee5• 13 years ago

Perhaps the terrorists knew this would happen all along. They knew our paranoia would surpass any efforts they could ever hope accomplish. Instead of terrorizing a few thousand, they could terrorize a whole nation—daily and officially.

It's brilliant and pathetic at the same time.

munificent• 13 years ago

There's no "perhaps" here. Of course they knew this would happen. That's the whole point. It's right there in the name: they're terrorists because they create terror. The US is now terrified and burning piles of cash and lashing out at its own citizens, which is exactly what the terrorists wanted to happen.

kasey_junk• 13 years ago

"I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life." - Osama Bin Laden (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/31/gen.binladen.interview...)

protothomas• 13 years ago

To be honest the outcome is probably beyond their wildest dreams.

pyvek• 13 years ago

    Terrorism isn't a crime against people or property. It's a crime against our minds, using the death of innocents and destruction of property to make us fearful. Terrorists use the media to magnify their actions and further spread fear. And when we react out of fear, when we change our policy to make our country less open, the terrorists succeed -- even if their attacks fail.

    – Bruce Schneier

JackFr3• 13 years ago

"Wow" can only refer to how bad the writing was.

I found that sentence to be a non sequitur, illogically and gratuitously tacked on as an appeal to sentiment over rationality, and absolute bit of overwritten purple prose.

"Oh! The irony!"

clebio2• 13 years ago

I'm so sorry... that I can't yet downvote your comment. What an incredibly derisive and pointless appeal to grammar you're trying to make. Having read the entire blog post, that line sounds like a very accurate description of the end feeling.

dodyg• 13 years ago

This "We have some female flight attendants. Would you be able to follow their instructions?"

They assume he was a Muslim and 'off course Muslims have problems following instructions from women'.

tokenizer• 13 years ago

The United States (Government) are a bunch of unenlightened, racist, xenophobic people bent on oppressing people by treating every non english/anglo-saxon as a terrorist. Please, someone tell me this isn't the case in an absolute sense.

jgalt2123• 13 years ago

oh, Hi Noam Chomsky.

jgalt2123• 13 years ago

I lose points every time I criticize Noam Chomsky. Who are the other sacred cows on HN that if you criticize you automatically lose Karma? I'll take a stab:

Noam Chomsky Paul Graham Elon Musk Jeff Bezos

theg2• 13 years ago

It's not, its a government of people and people have varying opinions, both correct and incorrect that drive their actions.

wyclif• 13 years ago

Eh, I think it's a tad more complex than that. The US is a heterogeneous culture with lots of people of varying cultures, religions, and skin tones. Though I'm certainly no fan of the TSA, and wish the US gov't would reform the system in a direction more like Israel's, they actually aren't treating every non-white person as a suspected terrorist.

liquidise• 13 years ago

Overly generic and condemning criticism about a group of people whom you are angry at for making overly generic and condemning criticisms about groups of people!!

9.5 / 10

C1D3• 13 years ago

The way they treated him is appalling. Even if he was Muslim, this shouldn't have happened! I travel a lot and have seen things like this happen before my eyes in the UK and Australia. People that look slightly ethnic and taken aside and "randomly" stopped. EDIT: Sorry for the typo.

afterburner• 13 years ago

appalling

wutbrodo• 13 years ago

Did you mean appalling?

C1D3• 13 years ago

Yes, I've fixed the mistake.

OlivierLi• 13 years ago

Appaling : http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/appalling

danso2• 13 years ago

On an offbeat note, this reminds me of the only time I've ever been thoroughly patted down at an airport. It was in Shreveport and during a weekday, with very little foot traffic. I was with a friend who looks like the classical all-American girl and me, well, I'm a minority but a "Golden Minority" (being facetious about that term, not serious...). Anyway, the TSA people were very nice about pulling us aside and patting us down and nominally going through our stuff. I thought it was weird but then I looked behind us and saw a woman and child, both dressed in hijab, who subsequently also received the full pat-and-search routine.

unhappyhippie3• 13 years ago

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "Golden Minority?"

danso2• 13 years ago

I was going to joke about how you must not have grown up in the 80s-90s, but doing a Google search just now, I see that I might have used the wrong term...

The better known term is "model minority," in which Asians, in America, were held up as what minorities should be like: smart, hard-working, non-confrontational to the status quo:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/thenextamerica/education/asia...

I swear "golden minority" was also a common term, because Asian-Americans were perceived as achieving toward high-pay professions (doctors, engineers, etc) and, well, we're also referred to as "yellow"...but there seem to be very usages of "golden minority" and Asian

benmorris• 13 years ago

This is disgusting to read, can't imagine going through that.

quicksilver• 13 years ago

It's sickening to hear that you had to go through such experiences. Funny that the 'default' scanner technology didn't set off any alarms. Many of these policies just seem to provide the sense that we're safer, rather than actually do anything to remove real dangers.

monsterix2• 13 years ago

Thank you for posting this. I was about to book a ticket on Jetblue for next week but I am now decided not to fly with them or recommend them to anyone.

While we can fix private airlines and businesses for their stupid attitude there is, of course, no way for people to fix NSA/TSA and all those inverted bullshitters living on taxpayer's money.

gk12• 13 years ago

Most airlines reserve the right to remove passengers from a flight if they feel it is safer to do so. This happens all the time, and I'm sure from the perspective of the expelled passenger it's always "unfair." I trust you will follow your own principle and boycott every airline.

monsterix2• 13 years ago

For that matter every restaurant, home owner, bus driver, taxi, parkway, condominium, hospital, school, university or business has the right to remove a person from their premises. That doesn't mean people do or have to do it illustriously and then come back and say: we'll fly with you tomorrow - we'll let you travel on our airline only tomorrow because you're not "safe" today.

When the TSA circus cleared the person in question there is absolutely no reason for him to be prevented from travel.

I trust you will follow your own principle and boycott every airline.

I hope you'll find someone who buys your ad hominem/bait elsewhere. On hacker news you might want to read up the guidelines [1] on quality of discussions and disagreements.

[1] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

ck24• 13 years ago

Holy hell. For what little it's worth, I am so sorry you had to go through that.

There is so much horrifying with that story it makes me shudder.

moheeb• 13 years ago

I've never had my flight cancelled...but the rest of it sounds pretty par for the course, even for white people.

onli3• 13 years ago

What I don't understand: If you are detained for several hours, why don't people call a lawyer? Why did he speak to the police (end even the FBI!) without legal counsel?

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

As I mentioned in the post, they claimed I "wasn't being detained". I asked more than once to use my phone; they denied me.

Maybe I could make that more clear.

onli3• 13 years ago

Alright. It was a genuine question - ok, they said you weren't detained at the beginning, but the moment you were forbidden to use the phone and the door was guarded you effectively were. I'm just surprised that didn't trigger the "I want a lawyer/I will leave now" impulse. But I admit to not having been in the same situation myself, especially not in a dangerous country like the USA.

The symptoms you described are most probably caused by an extreme low blood-sugar level - combined with the stress of the situation, you were close to collapsing. Or it was simply shock, dangerous as well. I was glad when not reading about that collapse.

Edit: Just to make that clear - the situation wasn't your fault regardless, didn't want to imply that (just realized one could interpret my comments that way). Absolutely unacceptable treatment by both the airline and the police.

swalkergibson3• 13 years ago

It sounds like the best course of action is to just have an attorney present if a situation like this happens again. You knew you were being detained, no matter what the authorities said. As far as I know, there are no provisions anywhere that forbid you from having a lawyer present when and wherever you want.

alanh2• 13 years ago

Do you have a lawyer on speed dial? I don’t.

onli3• 13 years ago

Not on speed-dial, but I would not need too many calls to get one.

In that situation, you don't need to have him on speed dial. It's enough to stop talking and demanding one and you have to be given the opportunity to call one (in my country including internet access for research) - it was my understanding the the US justice system has the same rules.

gk12• 13 years ago

It's easy to say that in retrospect, but at the time I would probably think that the questions will end in just a few minutes and I'll get on your flight eventually... So why involve a lawyer and make this an even bigger deal.

bickfordb• 13 years ago

Alternatively, fire government workers who abuse their power or are incompetent.

unz2• 13 years ago

People like to blame the US government for this, though I think the real culprit is that often the dumber, more xenophobic members of society are usually hired for these kinds of positions. As in the case of police brutality, cameras need to be recording all encounters between travelers and airport security, and extensive quality control performed. This is an issue that is tarnishing the United States's reputation everywhere. Travelers are often the elite from their respective countries and the US is digging itself into a hole with this.

There's a big opportunity for startups to provide the backend for this quality control. A hosted webapp that allows teams of inspectors to seamlessly collaborate on monitoring the quality of TSA agents from anywhere.

seehafer3• 13 years ago

But who hires and tolerates the dumber, more xenophobic members of society for these positions?

The biggest impediment to fixing or eliminating the TSA is that the decision makers don't eat their own dogfood. If every Congressperson had to endure the inhumane treatment that passes for airport security these days instead of being whisked through VIP lines the TSA would be fixed within months.

unz2• 13 years ago

The thing is, senior people don't eat their dogfood in anything. The CEO of Ford probably drives a Benz. What has worked in all industries is quality control. Government has always had a problem in doing this (the DMV) but that's where startups should step into to educate the politician that it's good for both public and for the politician's future elections (using said startup's product).

htsh• 13 years ago

To me one of the more troubling aspects of this is that in 2013 and after 12 years, the specialists we have fighting this "war" still have trouble distinguishing between Hindu & Muslim (though obviously Muslims should not be treated like this either). It might be easier for me b/c I'm Hindu but just looking at a name is usually enough to at least get past that part.

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

I know, my surname is incredibly distinctive.

To anybody who's vaguely knowledgeable about these things, it not only points out my nationality, but also which region of India I belong to, my religion, and also my caste[0].

[0] Not that I pay attention to caste, but as you can see, Indian surnames contain a lot if information, to anybody even remotely trained in reading them.

blhack2• 13 years ago

You don't have to say your name, for obvious reasons, but would you mind giving an example of an Indian name, and how all of that information is encoded in it? That's REALLY fascinating to me.

Balgair2• 13 years ago

http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

Call your representative today and talk to them about this story if you are disturbed by it. Please, you have to speak to have a voice.

eruditely• 13 years ago

They have to be listening for you to be heard.

Balgair2• 13 years ago

Not true at all! My rep. is very kind and does actually listen to her constituents. I won't say the same for my senators but my rep is pretty level headed and listens to her constituents.

Also, your apathy is what is causing the problem! Get out there! VOTE! Talk to your elected officials. Absent you, the lobbyists and mountebanks out there sure will. Monopolize your rep.'s time. You matter! You count! Act like it!

seiji• 13 years ago

Initial thoughts:

It sounds like the phone was nearby during this entire inexcusable ordeal. Too bad it wasn't recording the entire time.

The names of everybody involved in detaining or interviewing or interrogating should be released and they should explain from their point of view.

How can we stop the TSA from thinking religious boom boom terrorism is a real thing in the US when it obviously isn't?

[Sidenote: I've had the "uncontrollable shaking without being cold" thing before too (due to lack of food). It's really bad. Only solution is to eat something immediately. The shakes should go away within 30 seconds. I imagine if you let them continue for more than a few minutes, you'll collapse/blackout/seize/Something Bad™.]

throwaway98483• 13 years ago

Oh for crying out loud. A well-nourished human body can go for between a week and a month without food. Nothing bad would have happened to his health (he stated he is not diabetic) after a day or so without eating.

It was probably because of the inexcusable treatment and stress that he received. That is more than enough to be angry about, no need to make stuff up.

dictum• 13 years ago

This is a manifestation of the US institutionalized xenophobia.

Good manners and taste should keep me from using this submission as another soapbox against how the US views foreigners, but when you see foreigners as enemies, a citizen who looks or acts vaguely "foreign"— I can't offer a precise definition of what "looking foreign" entails, but it's a combination of being a part of a small demographic group, and being a part of an ethnicity that is regularly caricatured in the media and in public discourse—will be treated with the same respect and care dispensed to a real foreigner.

ck24• 13 years ago

It echos of rounding up everyone who is Japanese and throwing them into concentration camps.

It's amazing how many people don't know we had concentration camps in the USA in recent history.

We are just a hop skip and jump away from that again, all it would take is another major nightmare.

lukeqsee5• 13 years ago

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

I had never heard of this.

gwright2• 13 years ago

I think you mean 'internment' or 'relocation' camps. The rational for the camps was to relocate people of Japanese heritage away from the coasts or other military 'exclusion zones'.

There are plenty of reasons to criticize this policy but calling the camps 'concentration camps' is factually wrong and only serves to obfuscate the rationale (right or wrong) for the camps.

superuser2• 13 years ago

It's amazing how many people don't know we had concentration camps in the USA in recent history.

When you say "concentration camp" people think of gas chambers, crematoria, and genocide, which were not components of Japanese internment. The term is still technically correct, but that may be why people are confused and surprised.

Maybe my school was odd... Japanese internment was at least mentioned every year in US History between 7th and 11th grade.

bmmayer1• 13 years ago

It's actually a manifestation of the US security state. Foreigners or foreign-looking people are just the first victims. Rest assured, before long everyone in the country will be suspect.

gwright2• 13 years ago

Differential treatment of foreigners is hardly a unique US phenomena. And don't interpret that as my support for any particular US border control or security policy.

mark-r4• 13 years ago

According to the NSA we already are.

niuzeta2• 13 years ago

I'm boycotting Jet Blue.

throwaway98483• 13 years ago

What is the superior airline that you will be transferring your business to? Let us all know :P

niuzeta2• 13 years ago

Seeing where the airline operates and since I'm not in US, I won't have a chance to boycott the airline. However, if I ever get a chance to travel to/out of US(which is bound to happen), Jet Blue will not be my airline of choice.

If my friends happen to have to use an airline, I will let them know what I've heard of the airline, and suggest them to find an alternative. That's pretty much it. It's not much, but I won't forget the name Jet Blue.

pinaceae2• 13 years ago

Contrarian perspective: He fits a certain profile. Triggered a bunch of attributes (address move, chemicals on him, etc.).

The 9/11 attackers walked through the scanners with knifes.

The Boston bombers were flagged, but still traveled freely.

After both attacks people were laughing at the stupidity of the enforcement agencies, uselessness of the TSA, etc.

Here, the process worked.

His account is subjective, everyone else is an idiot, he's way smarter than them, gets offended by simple questions about religion, etc. OK, good for him. The more you push back, the more self righteous and arrogant you are during security checks, the deeper you're digging yourself in. Those people are doing their jobs. Same with how you should be treating waiters, etc.

JetBlue has the right to deny you a flight. ElAl does this all the time, incl. racial profiling. Good security track record.

gruseom• 13 years ago

You were doing ok with the contrarian perspective until the part when you personally attacked the OP. That's not contrarian, just mean.

hyperbovine4• 13 years ago

I'd rather live in a country where the process occasionally fails and we don't have to put up with / subject others to this shit. And yes, I am American and I experienced all the pain and horror of 9/11.

nrivadeneira6• 13 years ago

Did you really experience it (as in, you were in NYC at the time) or were you just a casual observer?

evan_2• 13 years ago

What was the purpose of denying him water? Of taking the picture?

Robin_Message2• 13 years ago

Cynically? That sounds like a standard interrogation technique. Keep them off balance, upset them, try and force them to stop lying so as to get the drink they need (not that the OP was lying).

Hannan• 13 years ago

> Of taking the picture?

Zersetzung?

oh_teh_meows• 13 years ago

Though for the most part you have a point, I'm not sure if denying him water counts as 'doing their jobs'.

jlgreco18• 13 years ago

Here, the process worked.

So a false negative is it "not working" but a false positive is it working? How about no.

pinaceae2• 13 years ago

at the end they let him go. he triggered alarms, they checked, determined him not a threat, let him go.

false positive would be him charged with terrorism.

maxmcd2• 13 years ago

No. There are far more efficient ways to flag people that fit a certain profile. They should have checked all of his belongings and let him go, and not focused at all on his "attitude". That allows for more checks of other suspicious people with the available time they wasted questioning this one person.

The Boston bombers should also have been allowed to fly freely. Their actions had nothing to do with air travel.

Either way the situation described is unacceptable, either as "racist", or "Xenophobic", or, to your point, as an incredibly inefficient way to carry out profiling.

tty3• 13 years ago

There are far more efficient ways to flag people that fit a certain profile. They should have checked all of his belongings and let him go, and not focused at all on his "attitude".

Did you miss the part where the machines gave him a positive for explosives?

spindritf• 13 years ago

gets offended by simple questions about religion, etc. OK, good for him. The more you push back, the more self righteous and arrogant you are during security checks

I agree with the other parts of your post. Here though I think he wasn't assertive enough. No need to get snarky but a request for a cup of water is not something you just let the cop/whoever shake off with a wink.

> "You also said a lot of things, kid," he said with a wink.

You say "yes, like that I want something to drink, repeatedly." Another thing is to always ask people for their official identification, a badge, a name, a number... They're not supposed to be anonymous.

AznHisoka• 13 years ago

He also didn't do himself a favor by saying "We’ll be visiting some temples." Is that the best lie he could come up with?

> "You also said a lot of things, kid," he said with a wink.

"Well DUH! YOU GUYS were the ones that made me come here! I'm a quiet guy, minding my own business. I don't want to say anything to anyone"

pslam• 13 years ago

"Here, the process worked."

In what way is falsely detaining an innocent person the process working?

waxjar• 13 years ago

Because numbers™ are all that count.

Aloisius• 13 years ago

The problem here is that he set off the explosives detectors. Regardless of what color skin he had or what religion they thought he was, the second he did that, repeatedly, he was in for a lot of questioning.

andy_ppp2• 13 years ago

I'm sure that there is a common way to make explosives with pesticides, but it's more common to use pesticides to kill pests. Right? The sensors obviously create false positives in most cases I'd expect.

Giving people water should be a bare minimum requirement in any interrogation.

bitwize• 13 years ago

Giving people water should be a bare minimum requirement in any interrogation.

They could be a member of Cobra, who have devised a way to make explosives out of water so they can turn the world's oceans into bombs.

You never know.

dccoolgai• 13 years ago

Wow this is shocking... I think a lot of this is probably related to the issues that the "bullshit jobs" article that was up on HN earlier this week ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6236478 ) covered. A pithy quote I heard from someone earlier this week seems to ring true here: If Al Qaeda’s plan was to cause a massive overreaction that would destroy the very idea of America from within: wow, good plan.

oinksoft• 13 years ago

"You’ve got people from five different branches of government all in here - we don’t do this just for fun."

Exactly. You do it because it's a secure, well-paying job; there's an infinite budget to keep bullies like you working.

mason2404• 13 years ago

"- we don’t do this just for fun - we have to justify our jobs."

krelian2• 13 years ago

I felt so angry while reading this. It's clear to say that the terrorists have won.

pearjuice4• 13 years ago

terrorists

You mean the government?

m0skit02• 13 years ago

He/she most likely means 9/11 ones

rokhayakebe• 13 years ago

I am a Muslim, and I share openly my thoughts on religion, faith, and related subjects. I frankly do not mind being singled out (once in a while) because I am Muslim as long as it is it is not assumed from the beginning that I am guilty.

What I have a problem with is people assuming someone is already guilty because they are Muslim, or Black, or White, or Hindu, or short, or Blonde. When you are start there it becomes a struggle for one person to prove they are innocent and it rarely ends well because from the get go it is set for someone to be wrong as opposed to both parties getting to the truth.

I was once asked by a FBI agent to meet and answer questions, which I did happily and readily. He was very polite, and more importantly, he started with an explanation of the situation and why he had to ask questions, we had a chat, and that was the last time I heard about it.

corresation10• 13 years ago

It is a terrible ordeal, but for all of the other factors brought up the critical factor is that he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed). Everything else (about Ramadan, being Hindi, the color of one's skin, etc) may be nothing more than decorations, and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in the same situation.

Yes, they talked about Ramadan and his situation, and where the parking lot is around his house, and none of this should be surprising to anyone. They're using conversation to try to determine whether he's lying, gaps in his story, nervousness, and so on. Any single person they talk to will get a conversation that is individualized to the person. Reading too much into it may be misleading.

This isn't intended to defend the TSA (universally reviled), or any of the other agencies, but repeatedly setting off an explosion detector is 95% of this story. The rest is just surrounding decorations.

reso• 13 years ago

Agreed. If I set off an explosive detector, I would expect to have a hard time, too.

goostavos• 13 years ago

I've set off the explosion detector before. I didn't receive anything like what OP did. And honestly, I chalk up a decent amount of that up to having the good luck of being white.

I did get pulled into a separate area, and treated like criminal. Two agents stood by me the entire time while another one gave me another pat down. They opened up my backpack and rifled through everything (which was, I think, the most offensive part of everything), and meticulously swabbed and tested each area of my backpack.

I did receive similar questions "Where are you going," "Why are you here," "Why would your bag be setting off our alarm?" etc..

After a few more searches, a few more scans, and a lot more questions they finally let me go through security. Whole process probably took about 20 minutes -- twenty terrifying minutes -- but in the end, it was relatively painless compared to OPs.

I don't think his treatment was in any way justified by setting off an explosive materials detector.

ck24• 13 years ago

How do you know they don't have a button to push to make it give a false positive so they can hold people?

Cops have dogs trained to give false positives on signal and we are constantly spied on and lied to by our own intelligence agencies.

So please don't tell me this idea is far fetched, I think it's very plausible.

legitsource• 13 years ago

The dogs aren't purposefully trained to give false positives, that's just a side effect of how social dogs are. They want to please their handler and the handler gives them rewards.

corresation10• 13 years ago

Sure it's plausible. It's just incredibly unlikely (not least because this notion that the TSA is some white power apparatus seems to be at odds with the reality that the TSA is a very diverse workforce. Add that the passenger list in most urban centers is incredibly diverse, and this idea that it's just xenophobia seems quite nonsensical. Another post talks about how this demonstrates how the US views "foreigners" -- have these people never been to New York City, where this happened? It is about the most inclusive, vibrant, multicultural place on the planet).

Indeed, the narrative of this very story seemed to be overwhelmingly focused on figuring out why he was setting off the explosives detectors. They repeatedly went through his belongings and tried to figure out if he was indeed in the business of making explosions. They almost certainly used a secret warrant to go into his apartment to, again, see if there was an explosives lab there. They really thought they had something when the explosives detector found something it didn't like, and there is no rational reason they would do this just because someone was Muslim (again, Muslims make hundreds of millions of flights in the US -- do people seriously think this is what they go through?)

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

How do you know they don't have a button to push to make it give a false positive so they can hold people?

That exact thought crossed my mind afterwards.

In the end, they never showed me any evidence that the machine had actually detected any explosive. Nor did they figure out what could have caused the "false positive".

Maybe they did detect something, but then what's equally surprising is the thought that they would then just let someone go after they have walked into JFK with explosives on their body.

fnordfnordfnord2• 13 years ago

There is no button labeled "Fuck the 4th Amendment" but a clever technician might know how to manipulate the results, if needed. But why would they need to? They could just lie.

zalew• 13 years ago

How do you know they don't have a button to push to make it give a false positive so they can hold people?

I've never been in the US, but when I travel (Europe, MENA), I am always chosen by airport security, even in my own country when leaving, for an additional search (less annoying than a TSA patdown I read of, but still), and when I asked recently why is it always me, a guy answered I was randomly selected by the gate. Got to start buying lottery tickets.

brown9-2• 13 years ago

What incentive does a TSA inspector have to make him or her want to do a private pat down on a traveler like in this story?

What does the TSA agent get out of needlessly fucking with some random person?

codegeek2• 13 years ago

You are missing the point. yes he set off the explosion detector for which he should have been questioned and he was. The issue is how they did it. No water for hours ? You seriously think that it is ok ? The rest 5% decorations that you were talking about is lot more than just decorations.

fennecfoxen• 13 years ago

The bit that got me as incontrovertibly hilariously-stupid was... they got all upset that he hadn't identified to them that he'd checked some baggage.

If the guy is an adversary, you can't rely on him to bring that fact to your attention. If the guy isn't an adversary, his failure to identify it is (by definition) innocent in nature. In neither sense does harassing the guy about it make sense.

jonahx5• 13 years ago

No water for hours?

I often go until late afternoon or longer without realizing I haven't had any water to drink. This really doesn't seem that bad. The OP's claim that his mouth was like sandpaper because he hadn't had water for a few hours reads like hyperbole to me.

alexeisadeski3• 13 years ago

I've always wondered what happens if you set off the detector.

The fact is that they allowed him to fly afterwards. Overall it's not so horrible.

Assuming the thing about the photo isn't true, of course.

hobs• 13 years ago

And made him pay an additional 700 dollars and miss his flight. Huge hassle as far as I can tell.

If you detained and questioned an innocent man and ruined his day costing him a weeks wages for some, wouldn't you do SOMETHING to make up for it?

A decent person would, a bureaucratic organization that is not held accountable sure wont.

TheCrownedFox2• 13 years ago

A friend of mine set one off when we were traveling in Australia. We talked with the guard (who very 100% ralaxed) and he said that setting off the detector is incredibly easy. While he was searching my friend's purse, we were told that some of the chemicals used in make up can set it off. After finding nothing, we were free to continue. Took all of 3 minutes, no additional security, no prolonged questioning, just a simple check and go.

cperciva• 13 years ago

he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed)

False positives are fairly common, but usually easily explained -- e.g., "I was target shooting yesterday, there must be some gunpowder on my clothes". A false positive which the individual involved is unable -- or unwilling -- to explain is far less common.

omarali• 13 years ago

My dad had food (dates) set off the detector. He's now on the no fly list.

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

It's hard to explain a false positive when you're given no context about what it could be.

As explained in other comments, nitroglycerin is found in things as bizarre as desserts.

Unless someone happens to be incredibly knowledgeable about how to make explosives out of common household supplies, it's hard to expect them to say, eg. "Oh, that's because I happened to eat dessert last night and forgot to wash my hands."

(In fact, if somebody does know that, that may be cause for all the more suspicion!)

jonah2• 13 years ago

My dad flew on the 5th of July a couple years ago. While going through security, he commented that they must get a lot of false positives around that time of year. Their response: "We don't test for black powder."

steven777400• 13 years ago

My bags have set off the explosives detector before, twice. (In both cases, due a heart medication that apparently triggers false positives). I was not taken into a back room or interrogated for hours. They searched me and my bags in more detail, asked some questions, and concluded it must have been a false positive. The experience took about 15 minutes each time.

This was a few years back, but I don't recall if it was post-9/11 or not. It seems like even setting off a detector doesn't, alone, justify the extreme reaction the authorities took in the author's case.

walls• 13 years ago

I don't think any airports had 'explosive detectors' before 9/11.

waqf4• 13 years ago

(In both cases, due a heart medication that apparently triggers false positives).

Presuming that this was nitroglycerin, then in some sense it's not a false positive at all. It's a dessert wax and a floor topping! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitroglycerin

corresation10• 13 years ago

Extended explosion swabbing -- and improved and more discrete equipment -- came about after the failed attempt to blow up Northwest Airlines Flight 253 to Detroit in 2009 (an almost tragedy that many quickly forget).

In earlier iterations of spam filters, it would simply prefix the subject with [SPAM], just as explosion detectors caught lots of things and they quickly dismissed them. As it got better it started moving them to a spam folder. Now it simply moves them directly to deleted. Of course the same thing happens with explosion detectors, where initially it picked up many similar compounds, and eventually started getting much more discrete, and the probability that it actually caught something of significance went from "not really" to "might actually be something real".

Traveling in 2013 is not the same as traveling in 2002. Traveling in New York City is not the same as traveling in Austrlia. All of these are factors that influence the probability that technology is a viable input, and the corresponding risk factors.

Tloewald7• 13 years ago

If you set off a gas chromatograph for nitroglycerine and then say you have heart tablets then you'll be fine. He obviously set off a specific trigger AND couldn't account for it (although they clearly tried to get him to).

Back in the 70s or 80s a group of friends in Britain were sentenced for participating in a terrorist act because they set off an explosive test. They spent years in prison before it was determined that it was a false positive caused by the coating of a popular brand of playing card.

AUmrysh• 13 years ago

One time I brought peanut butter in my luggage. It looks like plastic explosive on the scanner so they have to open it and test it. Our teacher actually advocated that we bring it and those 36 packs of AA batteries because they look like plastic explosives and bullets, respectively. He really liked to mess with the TSA.

This was post 9-11, I don't know how we didn't all get arrested.

manojlds• 13 years ago

Don't forget that his house was potentially searched.

dotBen• 13 years ago

and possibly bugged. I wouldn't live there without a complete sweep, and probably not even after that.

toddmorey2• 13 years ago

If events like Oklahoma City, Boston, and Sandy Hook have taught us anything, it's that terrorism doesn't have an ethnic profile. It's not only insulting, but also extremely unsafe to assume otherwise.

I'm surprised and embarrassed by how representatives of my country treated him. I'm embarrassed by their cultural ignorance. There should at least be some better training.

However, this should be a technology discussion and I completely agree with your comment. The question is about the machine, how often it provides a false positive, and how likely it is for someone to come in contact with a legal and common chemical that can set it off. In short: what have we sacrificed for this measure of safety, and does it really provide the advertised benefits?

If we have decently calibrated explosion detectors, then in the unlikely event that they do go off, I for one want that individual questioned very thoroughly, ethnicity and religion aside.

The title of the article should be: "Don't fly after handling Permethrin."

Zimahl3• 13 years ago

First, Sandy Hook/Newtown wasn't terrorism. By definition it was not 'the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.'[1]. It was more of a random spree killing. As for Boston, that's a terrible example because it was committed by Chechen Muslims.

Second, we don't know if there was a false positive. Maybe some cleaner or the bed bug spray do have legitimate bomb-making uses. There's a lot of conjecture in the story and even more in this comment thread.

[1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism?s=t

sirmarksalot• 13 years ago

Add sunscreen to that list as well. I was briefly detained for that when I was coming back from Hawaii. I'd gone to the beach the day before, and used the same jeans, leaving trace amounts of residue.

Really, there are a ton of false-positive substances that we use every day. We need to realize that a false positive can happen to anyone, regardless of their background or morals, and we should treat suspects (for lack of a better word) with respect.

exhilaration• 13 years ago

Is that definitely true? Permethrin sets off the explosive detectors?

msrpotus5• 13 years ago

If it was just the false positive, that would be one thing but the utterly humiliating, quite frankly stupid, way they treated him was completely unjustified. There's nothing that warranted denying him water and not treating him with dignity.

Tloewald7• 13 years ago

Yes, but this is how law enforcement behaves across the board. (And when they do give you a drink then they can grab the cup and fingerprint it and run DNA tests, right?)

RivieraKid2• 13 years ago

They searched him very thouroughly. They didn't find any explosive. So it was clearly a false positive. The way they treated him was absolutely disgusting.

nknighthb• 13 years ago

I've set off the explosive detector a couple times. I don't take anything but lisinopril and OTC allergy meds. Each incident took 3-5 minutes to resolve, and did not involve any questions not directly related to the screening process. I have no idea what set it off, and as far as I know, neither did the TSA.

Apart from those two times, I've been the focus of TSA attention for more than a few seconds on exactly two other occasions. One was when the x-ray tech was confused by the small flatbed scanner in my carryon, and the other was the day I had to fly with expired ID.

Again, neither occasion took more than about five minutes, and again, they asked me no questions not directly related to the screening process itself.

Also, about half the time I travel on one-way tickets, often between points that my ID does not reflect an address for. I've travelled while tired, I've travelled while stressed/nervous, I've travelled with my hair and beard at every conceivable length/combination, including long beard, short hair, and a completely shaved head.

But I'm white and have a completely Anglo name.

sandyarmstrong• 13 years ago

I think they get false positives all the time.

I am a white male that routinely opts-out of the scanners. I've had many many pat downs. One time my bag registered a false positive and I was also subjected to the "enhanced pat-down".

My experience was totally different from OP's. The TSA officers went out of their way to reassure me that false positives are not uncommon, that there was nothing to be afraid of, etc etc. They asked me a few simple questions, but it felt more like they were making conversation to keep the atmosphere relaxed, rather than interrogating me.

I don't recall if further tests of my bags or clothes indicated explosives, but I was let out of the screening room after ~20 minutes.

I strongly suspect that the respectful treatment I repeatedly receive during my TSA interactions are due to (mostly racial) profiling, and luck.

corresation10• 13 years ago

The machines are not binary. They trigger specific materials. Some are going to be much more common than others, and like every process where they have false positives they react differently based upon their incidence rate.

kevingadd• 13 years ago

I've set off a detector before but because I looked like a young white male at the time all they did was screen my bags and have my hands tested again for explosives and send me on my way.

mistercow9• 13 years ago

and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in the same situation.

We don't have to have direct knowledge of the impossibly specific situation you've constructed. The FBI agent flat out said that it was about his race when he said "a person of your… background".

And explosive detectors are not really there to find bombs. They are there to reduce manual searches. If they just wanted to find bombs, they could just search everyone. Since that is impractical on multiple counts, the explosive detector is valuable because it narrows down the space. Once you have taken the person aside, searched them, searched their stuff, and come up with no additional evidence ("brown" isn't evidence), it's time to let them go.

Finally, this isn't just about racism, but is also about the TSA and the cops being dangerously incompetent bullies. Instead of being polite and decent, they were rude and intimidating. Someone being reluctant and apprehensive under those circumstances is not strong evidence of wrongdoing.

And when they questioned him about the chemicals he had handled, they wouldn't even tell him what they had found. That's the kind of "withholding information" tactic you would use if you were playing the role of a detective without actually having any idea how to investigate. What purpose does it serve? If he were a terrorist, he'd know what chemicals were in his explosives. The only situation where that information is actually a secret is the one where the suspect is innocent.

In other words, they repeatedly created situations that either made guilt indistinguishable from innocence, or where they'd distinguish them inversely. This is, to put it mildly, "poor form".

corresation10• 13 years ago

We don't have to have direct knowledge of the impossibly specific situation you've constructed.

Instead we have people saying "I am white and I set one off in 2003 in Australia and they let me through, therefore that demonstrates that this is racism" (ignore every case where non-whites got a couple of quick questions and went through).

And how utterly provincial are so many people on here? What backwaters do they live in? Go to JFK or Newark and tell me that they pick on non-whites, and I'll tell you that they must have hundreds of thousands of employees working around the clock to manage that.

Further what an FBI agent purportedly said during the conversational stage is utterly irrelevant. We don't know what explosive material the sensor detected, but by the response it seems likely that it was rare.

Finally, this isn't just about racism

Indeed, it isn't, even though the overwhelming majority of comments, and the title itself, portends racism. In another comment someone criticizes me for apparently claiming that their treatment is reasonable. Yet never did I say their treatment was reasonable. Who would?

they wouldn't even tell him what they had found

Because they believe in the flawed concept of security through obscurity. They likely imagine that giving that information away shows their hand.

mapt2• 13 years ago

As much problem as I have with the TSA and this event...

Offering hints as to how a person they do not trust would dissuade their suspicions is a way to guarantee that everyone dissuades their suspicions. It is an information-theoretically invalid way of pursuing an investigation of anything.

jey• 13 years ago

and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed

How is this a reasonable assumption? When the probability of it legitimately going off is so low, most times it actually goes off are probably just false positives.

being Hindi

"Hindi" is a language, and "Hindu" is the religion.

cesarbs• 13 years ago

My mother recently came to the US and set off an explosive detector. It took her just a few minutes to get cleared and she was not at all harassed like the author of the post was. Although she comes from Brazil, she is white, blonde and blue-eyed (a descendent of German immigrants). So I guess there is a difference in treatment according to race.

What set off the explosives detector? She had no idea, as that had never happened before to her. The only different thing she had touched hours before was the wipes they gave her during the flight to clean her hands before a meal.

danielharan2• 13 years ago

FTFA: "You’ll have to understand, when a person of your… background walks into here, travelling alone, and sets off our alarms, people start to get a bit nervous."

So it does sound like being brown-skinned had something to do with the ordeal.

ryan-c• 13 years ago

I flew out of SFO last week and set off the explosive detector after opting out. My experience was rather different. The TSA agents took my backpack and made a cursory hand-search, doing explosive swab tests on my electronics. After failing to find a source, they took me to the booth to do a more through check. They didn't ask me any questions at all about myself or why I might have set the system off other than the normal 'any sensitive areas' questions. I did volunteer that I'd spilled a small amount of gasoline on myself when fueling my car the previous day and that I was wearing new clothes that had not been washed since purchase. They seemed entirely disinterested. The whole thing took maybe 15 minutes longer than a regular opt-out pat down.

So, apparently that's how it goes when a white male sets the thing off.

mech4bg2• 13 years ago

I mentioned this in another comment, but I've set off the explosives detector before and had a very similar experience as the original link (taken to a side room, questioned, etc). This is as a white male, although it was in Australia.

antjanus• 13 years ago

Let me tell you what would happen and what DID happen to one of my friends who set off the alarm.

A supervisor was called in, he double checked his ID, found out my friend was using some chemicals the day before (working on his apartment). Waved him through right after.

The explanation may be the thing that got him through but it could also be the fact that they told him what chemical he set off and the fact that he's white as hell.

orblivion• 13 years ago

I opted out of the Millimeter waves in Manchester NH airport (BTW, coolest TSA agents I ever met. One of them even said he wouldn't ever go through a backscatter machine himself.). They detected some nitrates or nitrites, I forget which (or what those exactly mean). But that's a potential sign of explosives apparently. It's probably because I had been by a camp fire that morning. If you go camping, or shooting, you should consider cleaning your clothes before going through airport security.

This was a flight to return home, so I didn't ask to leave the airport, but they did give me the option of going through the porno-scanner or staying grounded. I understand that the TSA at least claims that the scanner doesn't actually involve showing anybody an image beyond a diagram (not that I'm shy anyway), and it's nowhere near as risky as the backscatter, so I went for it this one time and I was on my way.

jellicle4• 13 years ago

The explosive detectors give false positives all the time. Any kind of lotion or hand soap contains glycerin - beep! Any kind of preserved meat product contains nitrates - beep! Fertilizer? Beep! Fireworks? Beep! Heart medication? Beep!

The tests they use are intentionally cheap and fast. Accuracy is not the primary criteria.

For white people you get an extra 30 second pat down. For brown people you get detained and interrogated all day.

Like drug dogs, false positives may be considered a bonus by the security apparatus because it allows the apparatus to work against the discriminated-against class and blame it on something else, as you have just done.

vecinu• 13 years ago

You don't think the tests are cheap and fast to allow waiting lines to move faster and to save money?

Everything would move much slower if you had to wait 5 minutes in an 'expensive and slow' device.

Filligree• 13 years ago

Ammonia?

I'm starting to worry about the plane ride on Sunday. I've been handling concentrated ammonia (25%) lately.

zem• 13 years ago

why do people insist on using the phrase "repeatedly set off the explosive detector"? if there is a substance on his person or bags that made the detector register a false positive, it is naturally going to register that same false positive every time it is run over said substance. the repetition means nothing.

mindslight4• 13 years ago

It's an emotional argument to soothe their conscience by asserting that there was a legitimate reason for this to happen.

If you want to see a major part of why the TSA is still molesting, you don't have to go searching for mythical sheeple in far away states - just look at a third of the comments in this thread.

corresation10• 13 years ago

Most airports have layers of ETDs: Quick and "convenient", but slightly more prone to false-positives at screening, and then expensive, slower machines for secondary screening. In a similar way that a breathalyzer positive might yield a blood test.

ams6110• 13 years ago

Because if he hadn't, you'd conclude that the detector registered falsely. The fact that repeated tests had the same result confirms that the detector is working (or, at least, that it's consistent).

mchanson• 13 years ago

I've set off the machine in question before. I am a american male mid thirties swedish/english/german (and look it). The person assumed the machine was wrong and spent a bit of extra time with me and sent me on my way. This was in 2010.

I do not recall if it was during Ramadan.

mbateman• 13 years ago

Those tests get false positives all the time. I failed an explosives test once in Denver. The TSA agent guessed correctly that I had been rock climbing. Apparently this happens a lot, no idea why. They let me go after 5 seconds of chatting.

jedberg• 13 years ago

My bag set off the explosion detector and I had to have an "enhanced" pat down in private. They agent later admitted to me that the machine I was tested on gives false positives about 50% of the time.

InclinedPlane• 13 years ago

Here we have a situation where someone is being detained and effectively punished (denied food and drink, for example, forced to miss their flight) without any benefit of the legal system. Preventing such things is the entire reason we have a criminal justice system. Within the legal system we have all of these procedures and rights and so forth that have been carefully honed over centuries to ensure that the system is fair and not abusive. Except here we have this bizarre little bubble that is effectively outside the criminal justice system for most intents and purposes which has about the effect one would imagine in such situations.

The detained here has no benefit of counsel, no ability to see the evidence put against them, no presumption of innocence, and so forth. And we can see within this one little example a microcosm of why all of those things are necessary and what happens when they are absent.

No matter how you cut it this individual was effectively punished, the fact that there are almost no safeguards to prevent such abuses of power today should be chilling to everyone.

"Setting off an explosion detector" is not the most important part of this. Imagine the detector as a human being instead (explosives detectors are just as fallible) making an accusation against someone. An accusation is not a conviction. Just because someone cries murder, or rape, or terrorist, even if it's a piece of equipment doing that, we shouldn't jump to conclusions and rip away every right and protection that people have in this country. Except it seems that we are doing just that and to some degree a lot of people are OK with it.

Confusion4• 13 years ago

If you do the math, it becomes obvious they cannot treat everyone that sets of the explosives detectors in this way, given how many ways there are to trigger false positives. They just don't have, and could not possibly have, the manpower.

tripzilch3• 13 years ago

you don't deal with false positives by doing the exact same test multiple times. that's insane.

given the fact that he did not have any explosives or was planning anything nefarious, this whole story shouldn't have happened (in any free and/or sane country) because other tests and checks should have quickly revealed his innocence.

and from what I get, they did so, but chose to detain and harass him, and break into his house (ffs!) regardless, possibly because religion/race/background/non-WASP-ness

jwr2• 13 years ago

The land of the free.

As I read more and more of those stories I can't help but wonder at how things changed. I am from a formerly-eastern-europe-soviet-bloc country (Poland) and these kinds of oppressive techniques sound very familiar. The haziness of procedures, lack of basic rights, intimidation, no accountability of state officials -- we've seen all that until 1989. At the time, while the communist regime was imposed on us, the USA seemed like heaven: transparency, procedures, basic rights, free speech, accountable officials.

Look at where we are today. I can't even imagine being held captive without arrest for hours, being questioned about the purpose of my trip, about my religion and habits, all while travelling within my country. When entering the country, the passport clerk has exactly two options: let me in, or call the police and get me arrested on the spot. I feel free and I am happy to live in a free country, together with people who because of the past oppressive Soviet regime are quite sensitive to abuses of power.

At the same time, the U.S. is rapidly degenerating into something that isn't quite the sinister oppressive regime, but getting close to the point where it could become one, if a wrong leader gets elected. It's scary.

And the worst thing is -- American people got so used to the idea of living in a free country, that they do not even admit the thought that things are going the wrong way. Most people don't see the signs.

angersock5• 13 years ago

I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues.

The distressing thing is that we've been putting so much machinery into place, and gotten the noose so well fitted, that when the bottom drops out we'll only have the briefest of short, sharp shocks before we find ourselves in a terrifyingly efficient machine of oppression.

songzme• 13 years ago

What a great analogy!

amirmc6• 13 years ago

"She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about... "

The thing is, they don't need to follow you around the same way as in the 'old days' because, like many things, modern technology makes it easier and more efficient.

The tyranny of the future isn't going to be like that of the past. That makes it difficult to explain the dangers to people.

jrockway9• 13 years ago

Or you can take the train.

jwr2• 13 years ago

I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues.

And she is right — the US is nowhere near being an authoritarian police state. But it is on a slippery slope, and those of us who have experienced a police state and can detect certain symptoms are deeply worried.

What's even more worrying is that this quiet (it is quiet, Hacker News represents at a first approximation 0% of the voting population) change takes place in a country which is the #1 military, financial and political world power.

guard-of-terra3• 13 years ago

What's her experiences with Kazakhstan exactly?

I've never been there but would expect from any post-soviet country a great deal of nobody caring about you and not many secret police anywhere.

laureny7• 13 years ago

She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues.

She's right, and like her, I have found it next to impossible to explain this to Americans who think the US is turning into a police state.

People making this claim should spend a few hours reading on history and learn about the Gestapo or the Stasi.

What's happening in the US occasionally produces unfortunate episodes, such as the one above, but by and large, the US continues to be one of the most free countries in the world in all respects.

derefr• 13 years ago

She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about

You know, it strikes me that one of the large differences between most of these countries, and the US, is the relative size of the population to the government+military. For having a population of 300mm people, somewhere less than 5 million people (~1.7%) work in the US public sector.

What this means is, we could have just as many secret police following people as happens under any repressive regime--but the vast majority of US citizens would never be aware of it, since in relative terms "being followed around by a black van" would be about as rare per capita as "being struck by lightning." You wouldn't personally know anyone it had happened to, you'd only read about it--and so you'd think it wasn't really a thing that happens here.

wepple• 13 years ago

"The distressing thing is that we've been putting so much machinery into place, and gotten the noose so well fitted, that when the bottom drops out we'll only have the briefest of short, sharp shocks before we find ourselves in a terrifyingly efficient machine of oppression."

wow - what a brilliant way of describing it

rusabd• 13 years ago

I was in Kazakhstan recently. I am Muslim, religious, have beard etc... I had interview with nice КНБ (http://www.knb.kz/) agent right after customs. It was about 1 minute after which I was free to go. Nothing like experience described here.

einhverfr3• 13 years ago

She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues.

That's the NSA's job, or so they think....

honzzz5• 13 years ago

I grew up in a communist totalitarian regime and I am not amused at all. We live in different world now and even oppressive regimes do things differently but that does not mean they are less dangerous... I would say exactly the opposite. Some person claimed in this discussion that "the US continues to be one of the most free countries in the world in all respects" - I am not sure I personally believe that but my main point is that this does not matter at all even if it were true. There is huge inertia and a country might still seem relatively free even years after it passed the point of no return on the way to oppressive regime. When the situation is so severe that it is visible to everyone... it is already too late and the most likely scenario in that case is that the whole generations will be lost.

It is my impression that people from countries which in their modern history never experienced totalitarian/oppressive regime severely underestimate (or in most cases are totally blind to) warning signs.

For those who are interested please let me offer personal view of someone who does have an experience with totalitarian regime - you might think I am oversensitive but despite the fact that years ago I had spent few months in the US and I loved it and despite the fact that I believe there is nothing about me that could trigger their attention I would still be afraid to visit again and I decided to strictly avoid even flying over the USA.

P.S. The fact that the guy was even refused water just makes me sick.

jrockway9• 13 years ago

I don't think this is that oppressive. He went through security and set off an explosives detector. The cops showed up and asked some questions. Then he left.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say the government can't hamfistedly accuse you of a crime. All it says is that they have to charge you or let you go in 24 hours, give you a trial, and punish you in a consistent way. They did that here; they asked some questions and they let him go.

You can argue about the techniques; religious questions, not giving him water, but it's all a well-documented psychological game that they're trying to play. If they make the suspect mad, the suspect is more likely to start yelling hysterically without thinking, saving the taxpayer the cost of a long trial. It's worth a try, right? (I think the correct answer to any question is, "my lawyer will answer that. get me my lawyer.")

Anyway, I look at this like the lottery, but in reverse. Sometimes you lose the reverse lottery and a day of your life gets fucked up. But ultimately, life moves on and you have an interesting story. You can say that the government is an oppressive regime that is out to get you for your political views, or you can say you rolled the dice and lost.

Let me ask you this: say you want to check for guns and explosives before people get on an airplane. How do you do it?

amirmc6• 13 years ago

"Let me ask you this: say you want to check for guns and explosives before people get on an airplane. How do you do it?"

Politely. With the view that I'm dealing with people who are innocent unless found to be otherwise.

Edit: Please also note that permethrin is not an explosive. Should everyone who uses insect repellant be treated this way while going through security? I'm surprised the guy even knew the name of the chemical (I wouldn't have).

mindcrime10• 13 years ago

I don't think this is that oppressive.

Yeah, well, it didn't happen to you, did it?

He went through security and set off an explosives detector. The cops showed up and asked some questions. Then he left.

"We gave him free room and board for 17 years, then laid him on a comfortable bed and gave him some medicine to make him fall asleep for a while".

vs.

"We kept him caged in a tiny, windowless cell and gave him just enough stale bread and dirty water to keep him alive for 17 years, then we executed him."

Details matter, dude.

greedo12• 13 years ago

Well, considering that red teams are routinely able to smuggle weapons and simulated explosive devices on aircraft fairly routinely, the current procedures are shit. Security theater at its finest.

And you can't detain someone without reasonable suspicion which gives you the authority to investigate whether a crime has occurred. This detention can't be indefinite, and can't even come close to lasting 24 hours. Once your investigation exceeds around 30 minutes, you have to either arrest the person (assuming probable cause) or release them.

dsrguru3• 13 years ago

I think the correct answer to any question is, "my lawyer will answer that. get me my lawyer."

Hopefully. But their answer to that might contain the word "Guantanamo" and there's a chance, given that you're now an uncooperative brown person, that they're not bluffing.

I'm normally not one to buy arguments that the US is truly on a slippery slope to becoming a police state, but this year has made me seriously rethink that.

javajosh2• 13 years ago

I can imagine that the same logic was applied in our colonial period to unwarranted searches and seizures. The Loyalists surely said, "Hey, you just lost the lottery. Sure they came in and stole some things and roughed you up a little, but the bruises heal in a few days and they didn't steal that much. Overall things are pretty good, so deal with it and quit your whining."

This is, of course, evil.

enraged_camel2• 13 years ago

>Anyway, I look at this like the lottery, but in reverse. Sometimes you lose the reverse lottery and a day of your life gets fucked up. But ultimately, life moves on and you have an interesting story. You can say that the government is an oppressive regime that is out to get you for your political views, or you can say you rolled the dice and lost.

The view you have expressed here demonstrates that you have literally no idea what you are talking about.

It is not a "lottery" when the TSA and their goons are profiling people based on race, religion, income, and a host of other criteria.

gutnor• 13 years ago

By coincidence I was watching again the "Don't talk to the police" video on youtube.

Seems to me that this guy had to talk a lot, answer a lot of questions, without any of the protection the 5th amendment is supposed to provide.

ctdonath6• 13 years ago

Israel does a marvelous job of it by a brief interview of every passenger. It's a matter of how each person reacts to initial eye contact; with proper interrogation training, ill intent is obvious.

The TSA technique does everything but what works. Gross wholesale violations of multiple Constitutional rights doesn't work.

rquantz3• 13 years ago

I don't think this is that oppressive. He went through security and set off an explosives detector. The cops showed up and asked some questions. Then he left.

This is a vast mischaracterization of what happened.

He was detained without arrest, based on minimal suspicions. Yes, he should have shut the hell up and not answered questions.

You can say that the government is an oppressive regime that is out to get you for your political views, or you can say you rolled the dice and lost.

Except these dice are heavily weighted against you if you are brown and/or non-christian.

say you want to check for guns and explosives before people get on an airplane. How do you do it?

That's not happening here. He was not detained because he had an explosive or firearm, he was detained because he was subject to a different level of scrutiny than the other passengers who went through the scanner.

typon• 13 years ago

Let me guess, are you white?

616c2• 13 years ago

As someone who was in a fraternity in college that practiced a waterboarding procedure as part of the initiation process, around our time in Iraq, I have come to never accept torture as someone who experienced one of the basic methods.

So, go ahead, try it. Call me a troll but you should check your moral compass. Do not argue for the torture, psychological or physical, of others if you cannot hack or attempt to at least once. That is where I draw the line.

john_b2• 13 years ago

"You can argue about the techniques; religious questions, not giving him water, but it's all a well-documented psychological game that they're trying to play. If they make the suspect mad, the suspect is more likely to start yelling hysterically without thinking, saving the taxpayer the cost of a long trial. It's worth a try, right? (I think the correct answer to any question is, "my lawyer will answer that. get me my lawyer.")"

This is about the techniques. As another commenter pointed out, details matter. "Securing our airports" is all well and good until you start "securing" them via forced detentions absent any charges, denying basic physical needs, "patdowns" that would qualify as sexual assault if someone not wearing a uniform did it, and so on. The whole point is that if you don't consider the details and only focus on the goals, then you only consider the benefits and not the costs. Judging from the public statements by officers of the TSA and DHS, this is exactly how they seem to think about these practices.

"Let me ask you this: say you want to check for guns and explosives before people get on an airplane. How do you do it?"

They already had checked for guns and explosives. Both his bags were scanned and his body was repeatedly "inspected" as well. The statements made by the officers indicated they were well aware that false alarms due to various common chemicals are routine. Yet they decided to assume he was a terrorist carrying explosives because he was a brown person who hadn't eaten traveling during Ramadan, not because of any concrete evidence on his person or possessions.

rgrieselhuber• 13 years ago

And by all appearances, they went into his house. While he was at the airport.

jellicle4• 13 years ago

say you want to check for guns and explosives before people get on an airplane. How do you do it?

Like this: you check them for guns and explosives. Finding none, you let them on the plane. Total elapsed time: 5 minutes.

It's really not that hard.

darklajid6• 13 years ago

  > say you want to check for guns and explosives before people get on an airplane.
  > How do you do it?

The way we did it before the one-off event that made airports unbearable and sane people behaving like headless chicken.

samstave• 13 years ago

Am I the only person that thinks that he should have the slip of paper with the "10:40" time on it tested as the trace explosive trigger, or is that too cynical?

curiousDog2• 13 years ago

I think that you're missing the point.

The prolem is not that he was interrogated. It's rather how he was interrogated and how the agents conducted themselves. They treated him like a spy and employed some psychological techniques. Was that even necessary? Doesn't e deserve to be treated with respect? Why did they immediately assume he was a criminal? Especially when they knew the machhines were defective?

Considering the fact that they knew the machines weren't perfect and that household items set them off, they should've considered him innocent until proven otherwise and treated him with respect. Even more so if he's a citizen. They should've atleast told him that "hey, the following items could set it off, have you used one of these?" They could've then verified his claims with the chemical that showed up.

All this will only become obvious once it happens to you I guess.

ok_craig• 13 years ago

What do you think about the part where they broke into his home? (Assuming they did.)

photorized• 13 years ago

My luggage once set off explosive alarms at JFK. But my experience was completely different, and only lasted 5 or 10 minutes. They also told me what the chemical was, when I asked.

In his case, there was some profiling going on.

tshaddox• 13 years ago

Let me ask you this: say you want to check for guns and explosives before people get on an airplane. How do you do it?

Do you really think that's a hard question? You just literally look for guns and explosives, and if you don't find any, there aren't any.

beedogs6• 13 years ago

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say the government can't hamfistedly accuse you of a crime. All it says is that they have to charge you or let you go in 24 hours, give you a trial, and punish you in a consistent way. They did that here; they asked some questions and they let him go.

They also broke into his apartment while doing that, and detained him for the better part of a day with no real probable cause other than "this machine said something".

Tloewald7• 13 years ago

It's an appalling story and the behavior of the TSA is often reprehensible, but seriously -- this is not a fair comparison.

So yes, security guys don't know Hindu from Muslim or Indian from whatever, but it's well-known there is a heightened alert right now, US embassies all over the middle-east and Africa are closed out of security fears, and this guy fit a crude profile AND did something slightly unusual (opted out of a security measure) AND triggered a gas chromatograph AND probably fired off several behavioral red flags. Sucks but it's just Bad Luck.

mindcrime10• 13 years ago

What a load of shit. "Security guys" should be fucking competent or they shouldn't be "security guys" at all. And who cares about some "keep the sheep fearful and in line" propoganda shit the US government puts out about supposed threats to embassies or whatever? The "opt-out" he elected is explicitly defined as a valid procedure by the TSA, so citing that as "suspicious" is bullshit. And "behavioural red flag?" Are you shitting me? What do you think somebody is supposed to do when they are detained against their will, subject to multiple interrogations, denied food and water, and otherwise accosted by a gang of jack-booted thugs?

The only part of this story that makes it anything less than a total clusterfuck on the part of the TSA is that their so-called "explosive detector" alerted on something. Fine, it should take about 3 minutes after that to manually pat down / search the individual and find (or not) any explosives they are carrying. If you don't find any (and seemingly they didn't) that's what we call a "false positive". They happen, but that does not justify all the follow-on bullshit.

Seriously, FUCK the TSA. Those assholes are the terrorists as far as I'm concerned.

mindslight4• 13 years ago

but it's well-known there is a heightened alert right now

lol. it's also well-known that the word "gullible" is written on most ceilings.

stfu• 13 years ago

Somewhat unwillingly, but I agree with your comment. There was an acceptable level of suspicion given that triggered the event. Sure, this whole thing went far to long and the missing picture story is mysterious, but most of the other "bad" stuff can be attributed to typical bureaucratic incompetence combined with playing dumb in the hopes to trigger up some reaction.

nolok• 13 years ago

It is also my perception that as western european countries (France for me) want more and more surveillance and US-like "security" laws, former soviet block countries are adding to our safeguard in the European parliament.

The number of small level scary stuff I have seen discarded because the EU told us "seriously, you can't do that" is crazy (did you know that until recently, you could be detained by the police with no lawyer for several hours in France ? The EU forced us to fix that [1]). That is the one and only reason I have always been against turkish being in the EU, not religion or anything else like that like the medias like to claim.

One has to wonder what will happen when the former soviet countries start to forget what oppression means too.

[1] http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%A0_vue_en_droit_fran%...

ranman3• 13 years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

umsm• 13 years ago

Regardless of the geographic location you call home, I believe that it's not "if" but "when" the government will remove your freedom. They may do this out of "political", "religious", or any other "reason" they see fit.

The truth is that the world is changing.

People do stupid things.

You give people power and it's only a matter of time when something can go wrong.

drhodes• 13 years ago

For those who haven't read it, Book 8 of The Republic by Plato details a possible transformation from democracy to tyranny. http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.9.viii.html

paganel• 13 years ago

I can't even imagine being held captive without arrest for hours, being questioned about the purpose of my trip, about my religion and habits, all while travelling within my country

I also grew in an Eastern European country (Romania), and I remember thinking about those poor Soviet citizens who needed passports to travel inside the USSR. It all seemed very surreal, having to have special approval from your government in order to travel inside your own country.

robomartin• 13 years ago

if a wrong leader gets elected

That has already happened. You can probably go back to the last ten presidential elections and this statement would hold true in some form. I'd say the same about moat senators and representatives. It's a disaster we've been engineering with great consistency for 50 years.

I don't know what it will take for the US voter to wake up. Actually, no, I know, things have to get substantially worst. Most people don't pay attention to politics and how the country is being run often enough to be aware. They watch tv networks during elections to be told how to vote, and then they go back to sleep. Politicians love it. Whole blocks of people will always vote the same way. Nobody thinks. We are watching our destruction from the inside and there's precious little we can do about it.

j2d32• 13 years ago

"At the same time, the U.S. is rapidly degenerating into something that isn't quite the sinister oppressive regime, but getting close to the point where it could become one, if a wrong leader gets elected."

I think it has little to do with any leader who gets "elected." The actual leadership is safe behind the scenes, busy "electing" people with well placed capital. The faces change, but not what's underneath. I think we passed the point you worry we are getting close to, and I think the wrong leaderS have been "elected" for long enough that we're... just totally screwed.

"It's scary."

Yep.

samsolomon• 13 years ago

...the USA seemed like heaven: transparency, procedures, basic rights, free speech, accountable officials.

That last part is interesting, and I think it may play a bigger role here. It is difficult to hold people accountable for actions that are hidden, and not well understood. James Clapper lied to Congress in his testimony, and has had little more reprimand than us bitching about it on the internet.

etler• 13 years ago

Just from my experience, the Snowden thing was the best thing to happen for getting people to notice government abuses of power. Before him, if you were to say something like "the government is tracking everything we do on the internet", everyone would call you a conspiracy theorist. Now it's treated like common knowledge, and I even hear it taken even further than what has been verified.

blablabla1233• 13 years ago

As I read more and more of those stories I can't help but wonder at how things changed.

People have stopped reading manuals. Bed bug spray is highly flammable. Basically it's one category below explosive...

jazzyb2• 13 years ago

The end of the story sounds suspiciously like Zersetzung:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi#Zersetzung

skore2• 13 years ago

I recently read an article about the Stasi. I was strangely fascinated by Zersetzung - as I understand it, one of the main objectives was to supply other people with evidence against your own sanity. "[R]eplacing one variety of tea with another" - No really, that and other ridiculous things happened. Agents of the Stasi went into homes and did that. It is designed to make you seem like a lunatic when you try to explain yourself and get help. Imagine that, being subject to a procedure designed to make you feel utterly helpless and alone. You are right and everything is real, but everything real is now designed to seem strange to other people.

I wonder why wikipedia translates it as "corrosion" or "undermining". The term Zersetzung is more often used as meaning a biological process of degradation. It's dissolution. It's being eaten away by acid.

atmosx• 13 years ago

I'm European, I think I'll never go to the USA. They are just too aggressive/paranoid with security. Of course, I have no rights there.

coldshot• 13 years ago

Well, you are still kind of lucky. If you come from so-called "developing countries" or middle east don't even think about going to Europe or USA. The attitudes are almost the same besides US having better devices and more officers.

moubarak2• 13 years ago

i'm form the middle east. i go to europe and USA often. although i was patted down twice in the US, one random check and the other for no apparent reason that i describe in another comment here (which was hilarious by the way), the worst experience was going to Netherlands, at the final check point the officer looked at my passport, asked me what i was coming for, and then gave me a disgusted look and handed me the passport back. That was really awful. I had so much fun there though the people were exceptionally welcoming. i would highly recommend middle easterners to travel as much as they can, safely of course.

xtracto2• 13 years ago

That's false. I am from a so called 'developing country' and and lived in Europe (lived in UK and Germany, travelled around lots of countries) for more than 7 years. In no way did I felt as bad as the original post. Moreover, there's no way to compare the security theater in the US (take your picture, hand digits and questioning) with the approaches in Europe (sheesh, even in Germany when I go stopped by some kind of officer during my entry to the country once... even counting for the fact that my German was very limited... imagine that in the US).

CoachRufus87• 13 years ago

When the TSA Agent said he wasn't detained yet refused to return his stuff, was that not theft?

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

IANAL, and I would love to know this.

But at the time, what else could I do, besides wait for the police to show up?

marvin5• 13 years ago

For the lawyers out there, this sounds like an excellent business opportunity. 20-minute legal emergency response to people in trouble at the security checkpoint. Could assist directly with regards to asserting rights, filing suits if the passengers' rights have been violated and extracting every dime that can legally be extracted from airlines that involuntarily re-book passengers.

Sorry that you had to go through this, and thank you for the very well-written account of how this ordeal looked first-hand.

jlgreco18• 13 years ago

Morally? Yes, clearly.

Legally? Probably not, for some idiotic reason about national security, airports being special, evidence, or some shit like that.

Robin_Message2• 13 years ago

It really seems like "Flying While Brown" is this century's "Driving While Black". These and similar stories are shocking and demeaning all involved.

Since the OP is here, and it wasn't totally clear in the story, I'm just wondering: if and when did you point out you were a Hindu not a Muslim†, and whether doing so and possibly additionally pointing out the historical enmity between those two groups might have helped or hindered.

And it seems minor amongst everything else, but them making jokes about your credit card in that situation really pisses me off. Its adding insult to injury. However, it seems to me that people make jokes when they are uncomfortable. That guard probably was uncomfortable with that he was doing, and if he was, maybe he should complain to their bosses, stop doing their job in that way and/or quit.

† Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I do not condone this intimidating, brown-shirted bullshit for anyone; I'm just wondering if it is possible to get away from being pigeon-holed.

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

Since the OP is here, and it wasn't totally clear in the story, I'm just wondering: if and when did you point out you were a Hindu not a Muslim†, and whether doing so and possibly additionally pointing out the historical enmity between those two groups might have helped or hindered.

A few of the officers did noticeably relax their body posture when I told them I was Hindu (just as the man from Homeland Security relaxed when I told him I didn't even speak Hindi).

I didn't point out the historical conflict between the two groups in India. Given how little they seemed to know about Hinduism in general, I suspect that wouldn't have helped, but who knows.

scotty79• 13 years ago

I wonder how it would play out if you were an atheist. Would they assume that you are actually a Muslim denying his faith to get through?

sethbannon• 13 years ago

How often does this happen and not get blogged about? If you want to help stop this from happening again, I suggest donating to the ACLU: https://www.aclu.org/donate/join-renew-give

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

This post was unbelievably painful to write.

I didn't want to relive the experience - I wanted to forget about it, but a friend of mine convinced me that I needed to let people know that these things happen, for that exact reason. That's why I wrote it.

mason2404• 13 years ago

There is an episode of Crossing Jordan I saw recently that is similar to what you experienced.

What triggered the government to hold the guy in the show was that he actually traveled to India for a week, you were merely trying to fly across the country.

Thanks for sharing your experience, nothing will ever change unless enough of these stories come out.

twilightfog2• 13 years ago

Just wanted to let you know that as a fellow Indian, I find your experiences extremely traumatic. However, you did the right thing to raise awareness about the issue. I've written strongly worded mails to JetBlue (CEO and their CS Director). Commercial airlines cannot continue being dicks and ignore tons of complaints without affecting their profitability. I'm sure a personal apology from them will be forthcoming (with perhaps a refund for the extra payment).

coffeemug• 13 years ago

I immigrated to the U.S., but I grew up here, it's my home, I love this country (perhaps even more than some people that were born here), and I consider myself an American.

So, from a fellow American, thank you for having the courage to set aside your emotions and write about this experience. People need to hear about these incidents. Your post won't change the political system, but it changed, ever so slightly, the consciousness of thousands of people that read it. It counts for something, and it's important!

Thank you.

icelancer3• 13 years ago

As someone whose family was interned in camps not long ago, I appreciate you sharing this. We should not forget what atrocities we are capable of.

acheron• 13 years ago

The ACLU has abandoned any pretense of actually being concerned about civil liberties in favor of being a generic left-wing advocacy organization. For example, just recently they were perfectly happy to throw out a commitment against double jeopardy in order to stoke some standard left-wing racial grievances[1].

I used to think if you donated to both the ACLU and the NRA you could cover all your civil liberties pretty well, but I don't think the amount of good coming out of the ACLU is worth it anymore. At least the EFF is still pretty good, even if airports are a bit out of their domain.

[1] http://www.volokh.com/2013/07/18/correction-re-the-aclu-and-...

driverdan2• 13 years ago

Have you actually looked at ACLU's policies, legal actions it's taking, or talked to anyone who works for/with the ACLU, especially at the state or local level? They are absolutely defending our civil liberties.

genericresponse2• 13 years ago

Look at it from the TSA/Police/FBI perspective: Someone goes to the airport on the first day of Ramadan, refuses the scan, sets off the chemical detectors, then asks to leave. During further interview he indicates that he hasn't eaten yet that day, is travelling for religious purposes, has just moved and is travelling alone. This further investigation doesn't seem insane to me. In fact if there was a clear profile for someone I would investigate it would be him.

That said, it doesn't hurt to show basic human decency.

mistercow9• 13 years ago

The problem is that the lack of decency is critical to the whole situation. If they had shown decency in the first place, he wouldn't have reacted in a way that they construed as "suspicious", and then they wouldn't have wasted several hours and harassed an innocent person.

genericresponse2• 13 years ago

I tend to apply some expectation on him as well as the TSA. He knows they might think he's fasting. Say: I ran out the door and didn't have a chance to get breakfast. I'm pretty hungry. He knows that they might be suspicious of religiosity. Explain the details of your trip. Yes he doesn't have to and it should have been easier for him, but use some common sense. It's the same reason that when you're pulled over for speeding 5 over you don't refuse to answer any questions. You try to be polite and hope the officer will let you off with a warning. The likely outcome is better.

greedo12• 13 years ago

And, to be the devil's advocate, if I was EvilGenius, I would test security in a dry run in a fashion similar to this. Have someone get residue on their clothing, and see how the authorities responded. The sad thing is that EvilGenius would learn that the authorities are bumbling fools that make Barney Fife look like a model LE agent.

bobsil13• 13 years ago

Many Muslims fast, not just fundies, and this person is not Muslim. This is worse than profiling, it's stupidity.

cefarix• 13 years ago

I'm a religious American Muslim who fasts every day of Ramadan every year. So, what you're saying is that if I am Muslim, it's Ramadan, I'm fasting, and I'm traveling for religious purposes - that's suspicious? What your religion or ethnicity is, or how religious you are, or what your specific religious practices are - none of these should even be a factor to consider in security to the TSA/police/FBI/etc. I find this view to be utterly disgusting.

gngeal• 13 years ago

who fasts every day of Ramadan every year

Muslims calling Ramadan "a fasting month" is a serious devaluation of the word "fasting". It's not actual fasting if you only eat at night. It's fasting if you don't eat for at least full day. Say, eating once or twice only every other day.

Also, doing this for one month in a year is another sham. How very useful!

andy_ppp2• 13 years ago

This is one of the best written accounts I have read in a very long time, the ending is just beyond belief, but in this climate I'd say totally believable. It says to me one thing so clearly that has been somewhat lost in all of this:

WE MAY HAVE STOPPED TERRORIST ATTACKS BUT THE TERRORISTS DEFINITELY WON.

RivieraKid2• 13 years ago

This is the first time I hear about the TSA but how could this be legal? How can a private entity force someone to stay in some room?

It's really disgusting, I hope it gets lot of attention.

marvin5• 13 years ago

The last part really got me thinking, when the author mentioned that his apartment was probably searched by some agency. He would obviously have noted if he had received some sort of notification that his apartment had been legally searched.

Is it legal for the police, the DHS, FBI or any other agency to search your apartment and belongings without notifying you? Are there warrants that will let the authorities do this? What are the circumstances which allow them to do this?

jazzyb2• 13 years ago

I am not a lawyer, but this is how I understand it: Hypothetically if they had issued a FISA warrant to the landlord, then the landlord could have let them search the apartment and additionally would not be legally allowed to inform his tenet that a warrant had been issued [1], must less that his apartment had been searched.

1. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1861 see part (d) "Nondisclosure"

marvin5• 13 years ago

Would any other measure than a FISA warrant allow for a search of an apartment without notifying the owner and/or tenants?

unreal37• 13 years ago

They won't go to the FISA court for every suspicious guy they see at an airport. What the author describes must happen every day at most major airports.

rafeed• 13 years ago

I think it's pretty clear that this whole thing could've been avoided if you went through the normal security screening process that everyone else normally obliges to do. On the other hand, what happened to you is sick and disturbing. I really found the way they treated you disgusting and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

I also think that your title is misleading and mildly offensive. Ramadan is a holy month, and more so a time of peace (although it's a time of peace every part of the year). I doubt this wouldn't have happened to you if it had been a few weeks earlier or later. I don't think it's right of you to say this only happened because it was during Ramadan that you coincidentally decided to fly.

magikarp• 13 years ago

Everything about this story, right down to the questions, agents involved, luggage inspections and the man's apartment being broken into and searched, fits very well with my own experiences in 2012 with entering the United States. I'm a recent Lebanese immigrant to Canada, male, in my early twenties, and to top it off I work on encryption software. I imagine the only worse thing I could be is an Iranian nuclear scientist.

I was asked questions ranging from whether I am affiliated with Hezbollah to why I was developing encryption software (and one time there was even a technician who asked me about its technical aspects), and specifically detained for questioning more times than I can count.

I was never refused entry, but I just wanted to attest that this man's story is completely credible to me, right down to the fine details he describes.

Possibly an interesting side-story for HN folks: By astronomical coincidence, I bumped into David Petraeus at a strange social event in D.C., after being harassed at the border every single time, and told him conversationally, casually, about my background and what I work on, just to see how he would react, if his reaction would line up with the knee-jerk reaction at the border. He smiled, raised a glass of champagne, and said, "cheers."

msrpotus5• 13 years ago

That's appalling.

javert3• 13 years ago

I imagine the only worse thing I could be is an Iranian nuclear scientist.

I would like to think such a person would have no problem coming, but just wouldn't be allowed to go back.

unhappyhippie3• 13 years ago

This is what I find surprising about security checks, don't quite understand. When I entered Israel I was out hailing a cab within minutes of debarking my flight. When I was leaving, they had me detained and searched thoroughly. I couldn't understand why they let me enter in the first place if I was such a suspect personality.

emiliobumachar4• 13 years ago

I would not. As bad as it is to refuse entry to a person based on uncorfirmed suspicion, refusing exit is a whole order of magnitude worse.

tlrobinson• 13 years ago

(For the curious, magickarp is the author of Cryptocat)

naterator• 13 years ago

Further reading, for the curious. Thanks, Nadim! http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/07/crypto-cat-encrypti...

ajb• 13 years ago

Was that before or after Petraeus's mail was hacked by the FBI? Maybe he was in the market for encrypted email...

leke2• 13 years ago

I'm extremely curious to know what social event would bring the author of CryptoCat and David Petraeus together.

peterkelly• 13 years ago

Wow. I'm really not sure how to respond to this.

I think the best thing might be that the statue of liberty is dismantled for now and put away in storage, just in case it's ever needed again.

the_rosentotter• 13 years ago

It seems most commenters here are missing the fact that somebody had been in his home. Without notifying him of the fact, he just noticed that things were slightly off, picture missing, etc. Is this legal in America? I mean, don't they have to tell him at some point if his private premises have been breached? Or are there special rules when you say "terrorism!", like in the London airport detention case?

gutsy• 13 years ago

That's awful. I'm half-Mexican and look like a really tan Jewish man and the treatment I received in the wake of 9/11 (having also been the first time I decided to grow a beard) was awful. I had to show two forms of ID to deposit money and the bank for some reason was rude and ended up refusing to let me deposit my paycheck, several people threatened to beat me up and chased me out of stores, and I wasn't able to make it through security at the airport without a "random" patdown until last year. I'm not even Middle-Eastern, I just KIND OF look it. I can only imagine what others go through.

kghose• 13 years ago

If they denied you water for 18 hours, you have a lawsuit. Get hold of a lawyer.

What I can't understand is why they were so motivated that they had people doing leg work - they had field agents check you out, go to your apartment. That's a lot of effort in contrast to an electronic trawl of your records.

You must have really scared them. I really wonder what chemical it was that showed up on the sensor...

JshWright7• 13 years ago

They didn't deny him water for 18 hours. The '18 hour' clock started when he ate dinner the night before.

alphakappa• 13 years ago

I couldn't even finish reading it - The fact that someone is being questioned about what their religion is, is not something I would expect in the land of the free. I'm not religious at all, but if someone in authority asked me my religion just to make sure that I'm not one of 'those people', it would piss me off to no end.

emmett9001• 13 years ago

Aditya - amazing writing, horrible story. I'm so sorry you had to go through that

jcromartie2• 13 years ago

In case you had any doubt that the TSA wasn't staffed by incompetent racist idiots.

aasarava2• 13 years ago

Can anyone point to a good reference explaining what your rights are and what to do if questioned and/or detained by the TSA?

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

I linked to Flex Your Rights[0] in the blog post. They have two great videos (both available for free on Youtube) about dealing with police encounters.

Unfortunately, the TSA are not police officers, and so you don't have the same rights as you do when dealing with police officers. (Notice how the police officers refused to be present during the pat-down - I didn't mention this in the article, but the cops stepped out of the room every time the TSA officers patted me down).

If anybody has a good, analogous resource for dealing with TSA and the FBI, I would love to know.

[0]http://www.flexyourrights.org/

aasarava2• 13 years ago

Yes, that's a very helpful link. Will keep an eye out for a TSA-related version of this and speak with some lawyer friends.

Thanks for the excellent writeup of your experience, though I'm sorry you had to go through it in the first place. As someone who is also brown-skinned and from a Hindu family and who has been singled out for many "random" screenings, I've dreaded the chance of this sort of interrogation happening, every time I've flown since 9/11.

pearjuice4• 13 years ago

So what does the Ramadan have to do with this? It could have happened any month.

rdtsc5• 13 years ago

It has. They suspected he was somehow Muslim because ... wait for it .. he has brown skin. They suspected he was a terrorist ... because they wrongly suspected he was Muslim ... because they think most terrorist are Muslim. They suspected he was going to blow up a plane as a "celebration" or somehow connected with Ramadan.

pknerd3• 13 years ago

ditto

pearjuice4• 13 years ago

By making those assumptions you are just as bad as them.

m0skit02• 13 years ago

Don't fly in Ramadan? I would rather say: don't fly to USA. I'm from a muslim country but I'm not muslim, but I would never ever fly to the US.

3327• 13 years ago

1984 is here and we all look the other way. 1984 is today.

Tichy• 13 years ago

I must admit the questions of the JetBlue assistant also made me wonder how often they have problems with religious fanatics.

I don't envy the people on either side of that story.

ranman3• 13 years ago

My plan:

1. Dress in ethnically ambiguous clothing.

2. Coat myself in insecticide before heading to the airport.

3. Look shifty.

4. Refuse the millimeter wave machine.

5. Get Detained.

6. Take off ethnically ambiguous clothes.

7. Scream: "I'm a white male... what now bitches!"

protomyth• 13 years ago

If you're going to go through that much trouble, the Colorado School of Mines does a high-speed photography workshop every so often. You are photographing explosives of various types. I would imagine clothes worn during the workshop would be very interesting to airport scanners with a bonus of learning about high-speed photography.

ranman3• 13 years ago

I have been wanting to book a flight to Colorado.

shabble2• 13 years ago

1. Find harmless/odourless/cheap chemical with some nitro groups or otherwise molecular shifty character.

2. Refill electronic air-freshener dispenser with said liquid.

3. Deploy dispenser in pre-security airport coffee shop or other likely congregation spot.

4. Purchase high-backed leather chair & fluffy white cat; Cackle maniacally.

borplk• 13 years ago

8. Get shot at multiple times

rechjr• 13 years ago

What do we do?

For at least a decade, but more markedly so in the last eighteen months or so, I can't get on the Internet without seeing a story like this. Authorities of all sorts ignore any laws they feel like to provide the appearance of security against threats that usually don't exist in the first place. Revelations in technology that show absolutely nothing is secure unless you are manually rolling dice to construct one-time pad keys, and god help you if you try to store them on a post-2000 PC. I'm coming steadily closer to panic, as a citizen, as a technology professional, and as a human being. What can we do? No rational discussion of this ever takes place, both online and off, because of the hordes of comments insisting that the US will NEVER be as bad as a real authoritarian regime NO MATTER WHAT, and the equally radical comments that we are already WORSE than the USSR. So far as I am convinced, there is nothing an individual can do. This is a Big Problem, and going back over history texts, political activism only solves about one Big Problem per decade. So, for the sake of argument, I ask we suspend whatever structural beliefs we have. Assume, for this comment thread, that the current decline into a rightless police state will continue unabated, only stopped by the random sudden social upheaval that, without fail, takes place sooner or later. What can an individual do to be safe, or feel safe? Anything? Or is the only option to shut up, take our Xanax, and live with the Cold War-esque existential fear that you could be violated or killed at any time just because an agent doesn't like your ethnicity/choice of cleaning supplies/fact that you work in technology?

yafujifide2• 13 years ago

Personally, I'm making plans to leave the US. Since few people will listen to me when I explain how bad things are, I do not believe effecting change is a reasonable course of action. Instead, I will try to internationalize my business and my life so that I can interact with pleasant people and escape tyranny.

clebio2• 13 years ago

What other countries are better options?

ballard2• 13 years ago

Woz is leaving for Australia.

~ 1200 people gave up their US passports in 2012.

The USG is like a bad neighbor: not dealing with them is still going to affect you, even if you ignore them.

sneak• 13 years ago

Do not talk to the police.

http://youtu.be/6wXkI4t7nuc

Police includes any federal agents, border patrol, CBP, et c.

Do not talk to the police. You cannot talk your way out of being arrested or explain your way on to a flight. They record everything and even an accidental misstatement is a felony.

You gave them address history, work configurations, business associate information... why? Did you somehow think you could talk them out of being afraid? This sort of breach of privacy (volunteering private corporate information to cops) is a firing offense in my book.

Do not talk to the police.

lightcatcher• 13 years ago

Umm, you definitely can explain your way on to a flight.

When a TSA agent asks if they can search your bag, saying "yes" has always lead to me catching my flight, and I'm pretty sure saying "Let me talk to my lawyer" would lead to me missing my flight. Also when they asked if there was any reason you might have set off the bomb detectors, answering with a valid reason can definitely lead to you catching your flight.

However, as soon as its clear you're going to miss your flight, I would agree its the time to stop talking.

jcromartie2• 13 years ago

When they take you to a separate room, that's when you stop talking.

knodi2• 13 years ago

The TSA is to brown men as what cops are to black men.

pknerd3• 13 years ago

I don't know whether I laugh or feel pity about these people.

TSA and other agencies have created more fear and panic among Americans than Osama or anyone else.

moubarak2• 13 years ago

i was detained by airport security in SFO upon arrival for two hours without setting off any alarms. Security kept asking me questions, disappearing into a room, then coming back asking me the same questions. They basically took the phone number of my entire contact list and told me they were calling them.

After i saw them take a few trips to that room, i started suspecting that they are watching me from somewhere and trying to analyze my behavior. i don't know why that idea came to me, but i realized i was extremely nervous and sweating. So i decided to bluff that i am pissed and this is outrageous.

When the security guys came back i started bluffing a bad mood. i turned the table by asking them questions instead. "is there something wrong?", "people are waiting for me outside" were some things i started saying. One security guy asked me to calm down but i kept on bluffing, i told them my flight was twenty one hours long non stop and that they are wasting more of my time. at this point i wasn't bluffing anymore i got really upset.

They disappeared one last time, i started huffing and puffing, and looking for the cameras that were watching me since i was convinced that was the case. When security came back, they simply told me you're good to go. They jokingly asked if i'd rather stay there. i said yes. They both raised their eyebrows and looked at me surprised as if they were about to interrogate me again. Then i jokingly said, i'd love to stay and watch all these hostesses passing by, at that point there was a team of hostesses passing by and we all laughed. They told me that this helps them endure their night shifts!

But the funny part was when i reached home, and started calling my relatives whom the security officers said they are calling. My relatives all said that they received no call, and told me of course those guys always bluff. I don't think i can take security seriously after that incident ever.

rsingel• 13 years ago

Do not try to talk your way out of anything. And you do NOT have to and should not answer any questions from law enforcement or the TSA. Ask repeatedly: Am I being detained? Am I free to go?

Cops can ask for ID (which you do have to provide, sadly) and can briefly frisk you to look for weapons -- if they have reasonable suspicion to believe a crime has or is about to happen.

One other thing of note and what makes this situation a bit odd is that once you get into a TSA line (basically past the first TSA person), you legally have to complete it. But the TSA is not law enforcement and they cannot detain you.

This is different for foreign nationals trying to enter the country (you can be turned away), but U.S. citizens have a right of return (though you can get held for a long time if they make up some reason to suspect you for simply refusing to answer questions.)

And the OP ought to file a complaint with TSA and FOIA the incident report. He should also talk to CCR about a possible lawsuit. Being detained for 18 hours without food or water is dangerous and illegal.

Also fuck JetBlue. Remember they voluntarily turned over their entire customer database to the feds in 2002 to help with datamining. Sounds to me like JetBlue also violated common carriage rules. A captain can refuse to transport a passenger for any reason, but an airline cannot.

driverdan2• 13 years ago

Just a correction, OP wasn't detained for 18 hours. He hadn't eaten anything in 18 hours.

JeffL• 13 years ago

But if you don't answer their questions, what's the chance that you end up on the no fly list?

aneth5• 13 years ago

You do have to cooperate with the TSA if you want to get on a plane.

If you intened not to cooperate, you might as well not plan any plane travel.

baddox2• 13 years ago

Do not try to talk your way out of anything. And you do NOT have to and should not answer any questions from law enforcement or the TSA. Ask repeatedly: Am I being detained? Am I free to go?

Unfortunately, this is a pipe dream. At that point, they can do whatever they want to you. Legally? Probably not. But they can still do it, because there is simply nothing you can do except try to fight or escape physically (which won't work). There's no cops to call, no lawyers to call, absolutely nothing you can do. Unless you value your principles more than your time, or even your safety/life, you will compromise those principles to placate your captors.

Cryode• 13 years ago

And when do we finally decide that those principles are worth fighting for? When do we decide that "absolutely nothing you can do" is unacceptable?

pknerd3• 13 years ago

Atleast someone should tell these guys how to read Dates!!

IanDrake• 13 years ago

That sucks.

First of all don't speak besides identifying yourself by name. Then the only thing to say is "Am I free to go?". If the answer is no, then ask "Am I being detained?". If no, then ask "Then I'm free to go, yes?".

Back and forth. Personally, upon hearing I'm not being detained, then I'd leave.

Second, you can't be refused medical attention. "I feel nauseous, perhaps because I've been refused water and now I feel faint. I need medical attention".

The more you say, the worse you make it for yourself.

diminoten• 13 years ago

Oh man, I would not handle that situation well. I'm quite sure I'd have clammed up as soon as I found out I wasn't making my flight.

eternalsunshine• 13 years ago

...and what does this have to do with Ramadan?

83457• 13 years ago

My guess is... Ramadan is a holy month for Muslims. Many terrorists are muslim. Terrorism increases around Ramadan. He is brown, many Muslims are brown, TSA on high alert for Muslims. He is setting off an explosives residue detector. Many terrorists use explosives.

mohamabid2• 13 years ago

so? Question was how in his case it was related to Ramadan? he was beeping for explosives, he wanted a pat down, he wanted answers.

Was he questioned initially because he didn't eat any thing or was going on religious trip or was brown or anything related to muslims or Ramadan? NO

He should have said don't fly when you touch bug spray/ insecticides and want a pat down. The title should be around the context and its not the case here.

catnaroek• 13 years ago

That is some really weird logic. If I were a terrorist planning an attack, I would carry it out as soon as all the preparations are ready, not wait until some specific date or month or whatever.

fudgy73• 13 years ago

Terrorism (by Muslims) doesn't increase around Ramadan. Ramadan is the worst time for extremists to do anything. Ramadan for Muslims is a time of spirituality, being with family, and discipline. While that may not be across the board, being thirsty and hungry makes all activity more difficult, and that applies to all - especially during the 17+ hour fasts while Ramadan is in the summer.

Makes me sad about what happened to the author, but Ramadan has very little (if anything) to do with it.

HorizonXP• 13 years ago

I'm Canadian, Indian heritage, and I practice Hinduism. Based on Aditya's article, I feel like we're probably similar with respect to our "religiousness".

What happened to him is horrendous, and scary. I'm currently living in Palo Alto for work, but every time I travel to and from the USA, I'm always in fear. That said, I have never had an issue; mind you, I've never made the explosives detector beep. I always elect for the pat down too.

While the TSA employees aren't always the friendliest, I haven't had any memorable run-ins with them. On the contrary, they've been actually nice at times. It helps that I always travel clean shaven, and speak to everyone as politely as any Canadian can. :-)

As a counterpoint, the only instance of racial profiling that I encountered while flying was actually in Sault Ste. Marie, ON, Canada. I was traveling with some colleagues back to Toronto; they were Caucasian, and I was the only non-Caucasian. The security agent at the airport decided to "randomly" select me for explosives screening. She was the lone agent, and it's a tiny airport. No one before or after me was "randomly" screened. No one else was non-Caucasian.

I'm not saying that security agents should be fearful of choosing a non-Caucasian for random screening, lest they be accused of profiling or racism. I'm saying that random screenings should actually be random. Also, I can't verify this hypothesis myself since I sucked at probability theory, but I'm pretty sure that only selecting 1 person out of 250+ passengers traveling through the airport is an insufficient sample size for actually detecting a person who may be carrying explosives; you should probably be randomly selecting more people.

TL;DR - USA yay, Canada nay!

Kronopath• 13 years ago

That's interesting, because every Canadian airport that I've been to (and admittedly I've been mainly to the larger ones) has had an electronic mat that you stand on that lights up a sign with an arrow to the left or right, telling you whether you should go to the standard metal detectors or the millimeter wave scanners (or a patdown if you so choose). The idea presumably being that when a machine is choosing, it leaves no room for profiling. I've never seen those in any American airport I've been to.

sq1020• 13 years ago

As others have said, horribly misleading title. It has nothing to do with Ramadan! How about don't fly when you have some weird chemical on you that sets off airport security.

lnanek2• 13 years ago

It's unfortunate he went through that, but I thought it was common sense that if you opt out of the scanner they are going to put your through the wringer. So I wouldn't call what happened unexpected.

sologoub• 13 years ago

Sounds like it's a good idea to invest in a good alarm system and video tape entrance. This way you'd at least know if they had entered without a warrant.

Camera would need to back-up to something remote though, and notify you quickly.

judegomila• 13 years ago

A few years ago, a US border official didn't even know about my visa type (O1) and put me through secondary because he didn't know that the visa existed.

This also happened on the US/CA border to me - the official told me I had the wrong visa to which I responded I had the correct visa. We went round 15 times in a row back and forth, with me stating it was the correct visa until he gave up and let me go.

A close friend of mine also had a gun put on the table to intimidate him in a secondary screening when coming from the UK to the US.

So much for wanting to be an "immigration magnet" like the Google hangout tomorrow with the CTO of the US.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2013/08/21/we-immigrant-geeks...

dutchbrit• 13 years ago

Great read!

fatjokes• 13 years ago

Don't Fly During Ramadan if you're brown

FTFY.

coofluence• 13 years ago

Reminds me of "Darkness at Noon" by Arthur Koestler

mohamabid2• 13 years ago

what does this have to do with Ramadan? The title should more be around bug sprays, insecticides and wanting a pat down.

Only because he was asked if he was fasting and wanted special prayer arrangement doesn't justify the use of Ramadan here.

I wish it would have not happened to him, but I feel certain things gave rise to the situation which could happen to anyone during any time.

esalman2• 13 years ago

I find similarities between this incident and the interrogation technique of the secret police in East Berlin. I learned about this in a movie I watched a few days back- "The Lives of Others" or "Das Leben der Anderen" (2006). The secret police used to detain people and question them repeatedly for many hours while forcing them to sit on lie detectors with their palm faced down under their thigh. Under pressure, innocent people would start to answer different versions to the same questions, while suspected revolutionists would keep narrating the same 'stories'. I think sooner or later every government starts acting the same way. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

rdtsc5• 13 years ago

Great movie! But those were not lie detectors they were pads to collect sweat.

Those were put in jars, cataloged, and saved for later. They would be used in hunting someone down using dogs. It basically saved their scent and then years later if they want to find you and you are running way they could bring in the K-9 unit.

esalman2• 13 years ago

Thank you for correction, I missed those details.

malandrew• 13 years ago

I get the feeling that we need public defenders in all airports and at borders. The complete lack of an adversarial process there is downright dangerous.

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

I can't decide whether I love or hate the idea of this generation's "amublance chasers" being the "airport security line chasers".

rayiner4• 13 years ago

I was reading that whole story waiting for a punchline. He repeatedly set off the explosives sniffer while trying to go through airport security, and speculates that someone searched his place while he was away.

And?

I'd imagine that repeatedly setting off a bomb detector would be probable cause for a warrant to search his place. I'm not sure what the "is" is here, other than it's a major hassle caused by a screening machine throwing a false positive, which machines inevitably do.

danielharan2• 13 years ago

And? And they stole a religiously significant item, letting him know he's not safe at home -- without knowing whether it was law enforcement or a robber.

I guess you'd be fine with that happening to you?

curiousDog2• 13 years ago

Really? Are you serious? Even if he set off those detectors, which are evidently broken, doesn't he have to be treated with minimal courtesy as a human? They could've even just started off with listing some household items that could set it off. Does a broken machine warrant psychological warfare techniques? And if you're even able to justify that, where do these techniques stop? Should he have also been waterboarded and forced to drink crude oil, you know just to see if he'll break? All this despite being 'American'. The pain and mental anguish one goes through when this happens will only be apparent once it happens to you.

siculars• 13 years ago

So my brother is a doctor. He told me a story about one of his colleagues, also a doctor, one of the smartest doctors my brother knows (which is no light praise), who happens to be a brown colored Muslim. My brother's brown colored Muslim doctor colleague tells him that it is increasingly humiliating to be constantly harassed by TSA when traveling and that he is thinking of leaving the country. My brother follows up by telling me that one day someone is going to need this brilliant, brown colored Muslim doctor and when that day comes the brilliant doctor may not be here.

The bottom line is that we need to ask ourselves what kind of environment are we creating for the country, it's citizens and it's visitors. At some point very smart people, who happen to be non-white, are going to realize that they would rather be somewhere else and we will be the lesser for it.

mhartl• 13 years ago

*its citizens and its visitors

enupten• 13 years ago

This is outrageous, aren't there laws to prevent people like him from speaking about this! (That was sarcasm, by the way).

mark-r4• 13 years ago

I'm sure this isn't the end of the story either. He'll be on the watch list now, and subject to additional scrutiny for every flight forevermore.

pmorici2• 13 years ago

"Ironically, when I went to the other terminal, I was able to get through security (by walking through the millimeter wave machines) with no problem."

Why go through all of that only to give into the body scanners!

enneff2• 13 years ago

Presumably at that point he just wanted to get on with his trip.

pmorici2• 13 years ago

Why opt out in the first place then? Isn't that like boycotting the bus up until the point where you realize you have to get to work and then deciding it is too much trouble to walk so you take it anyways?

ffn• 13 years ago

Maybe I'm just neurotic and work is getting to me, but the tone of the article felt oddly erotic to me...

o0-0o• 13 years ago

This happened to me - because of incense. Specifically, the Nag Champa in the Red box (not the blue box). It is super good stuff, but the machine does not like it too much.

mech4bg2• 13 years ago

I've had this happen to me before as well, but in Australia, and the similarities and differences are interesting.

I set off the explosive scanner for TNT when flying to see my family at Christmas (and was told straight away what I was found positive for). Was immediately taken into another room with my carry-on, and had my checked-in luggage located and brought in as well.

A lot of things were very similar - I had the full pat down, the numerous questions, and everything was looked over. However they did it all just once. They took everything out of my bag and it was full of Christmas presents, which they then wanted to open, but I persuaded them to put them through the X-ray scanner still wrapped.

I also had a 'guard' watching over me and making sure I didn't leave, and multiple people coming in to ask me questions and verify my answers.

In the end they were able to X-ray all my stuff to their satisfaction, re-checked my bag, and I was was on my way in about 20-30 minutes.

They never did figure out why I set it off btw, and it's never happened again. Very strange.

The thing that sticks out to me from the experience, was how on alert everyone got once the explosive detector went off. Suddenly everyone was _very_ uneasy and wary of me, especially when it came up positive a second time.

So although I think the recent incident was poorly handled, I do understand to some extent the measures in place - i.e. being taken away to another room to be checked, having all their stuff looked over, etc.

And although it seems nuts they didn't let him leave, if he did show positive for explosives then what else should they have done? It's a difficult problem - surely they are compelled to investigate him if that happens?

Does anyone know if it would even be legal to search his place while he was away btw? Surely not, since he checked out and they were happy to let him go.

And how ridiculous Jet Blue denied him boarding (and yet were happy to let him board the next day!)

marccuban• 13 years ago

This article has very little to do with Ramadan...Muslims don't fly more often during Ramadan than the rest of the year, do they? 9/11 didn't happen during Ramadan.

Take a look at this objectively.

A brown guy, traveling alone, tested positive for explosive residue while going through a TSA checkpoint. After some brief questioning, they determined that there was a 99% chance that he wasn't a terrorist.

How stupid would we as Americans have felt had we allowed someone to fly on the same day as having a 1% chance that he was a terrorist?

msrpotus5• 13 years ago

But THEY thought it was related to Ramadan.

bobsil13• 13 years ago

"Traveling alone" = half the business travelers at the airport. "Brown" = most of the world. "Explosive residue" = hand lotion or bug spray. "Brief questioning" = 4 hours, ticket canceled, $700 new ticket cost and apartment search.

This is racial profiling, straight up, and ineffective security. How about you go through this and tell me it's all good.

I (of brown skin) was once taken aside INSIDE a jetway, after clearing all security, and quizzed: how much cash was I carrying? Where did I go to school? And this bizarre national origin totem: who won the World Series last year? I'd have had a better chance of telling them what RSA stood for or who Stallman was than baseball.

ibrahima• 13 years ago

We probably travel less during Ramadan than usual, since it's kind of inconvenient to do so. Though maybe some people want to spend it with their families like this guy wanted to spend his holy week with his family, but most people would probably travel before Ramadan rather than during IMO.

smutticus• 13 years ago

This is just disgusting. I feel terrible just reading it. Like I'm invading this person's privacy simply by bearing witness to his pain at the hands of these imbeciles.

sheri• 13 years ago

Last week I flew into SFO from Paris. I was called out at the Paris airport with another person (of Muslim origin). The person at the counter started asking me a few questions, and then asked me if we're colleagues. I said we weren't, and that I don't know the guy. He let me go after that, but I was then flagged for security at every single checkpoint after that. I was pulled for a bag check after scanning my boarding pass. In SFO I was flagged for 'secondary screening' during immigration. The immigration officer took me in a room and basically asked me to give details on pretty much my entire life and activities for the past year. After I got out of there, I was then flagged at the customs, where the officer rummaged through all my bags. I'm terrified now that this will become a regular thing, and that was only because I was accidentally associated with a young Muslim male. I now understand what they must be going through pretty much every single time they fly.

dgudkov• 13 years ago

Every time I visited the US I was subject to so called "secondary" checks that looked more like interrogation, so I understand the author's feeling very well. Last time I was denied entry at all. I'm just a regular remote IT contractor living in Canada who happened to have a passport of an Eastern European country. I don't want to come to the US anymore because of this humiliating experience of crossing the US border. I'd better focus on serving customers in Canada. Canada feels much more like a country for people .

justin666• 13 years ago

People have some funny ideas about the "explosive detector" machine. It can rightly be called an "explosive detector" in exactly the same sense that the TSA clown who takes everyone's regular-sized liquid containers and throws them away can be called an "explosive detector."

There might be an explosive there, but there almost always isn't, and the whole thing is for show.

webwanderings• 13 years ago

This story had nothing to do with Islam/Muslims/Ramadan, but for reasons only known to the author, he has implicated every bit of his story and ordeal to Muslims. This is just amazing.

shanselman• 13 years ago

I'm a random American white guy with an insulin pump. I (my pump) set off the explosives detector once. They took me into a back room, closed the door, patted me down twice, took all my bags apart and swabbed EVERY single item (like 60+ things) and ran them through the detector. After none of them set it off, the guy say "That was weird, go ahead" and I left.

Given my anecdote and the OP's anecdote the racial and religious profiling aspect of things is clear. Also, the TSA's willful ignorance of just a few basic religious details that I (and presumably any other educated person) learned by simply paying attention and reading, is chilling.

shabble2• 13 years ago

slightly tangential, but I wonder how they would/could treat sterile medical equipment (insulin vials, syringes, epi-pens, etc).

It's not something that's exactly conducive to hasty disassembly and swab analysis.

I suppose the paranoid approach would be to confiscate it on any suspicion, and require you to purchase/be credited with 'certified' replacements post-security, although I'm sure there are exotic things that would be tricky to get everywhere.

melito• 13 years ago

Aditya, if you're reading this: the next time a TSA agent threatens to call the cops, let them. If you hadn't made any outbursts, you haven't broken any laws.

Plus they'd be calling REAL cops. Ones that have to enforce and abide by real laws or actually face consequences.

dr_• 13 years ago

Sad but lets not make the mistake of thinking this is limited to the United States. It's how most governments respond to what they feel, correctly or not, are security threats. I'm of indian origin as well and was traveling in India a few years ago. At the time, in response to the Mumbai attacks, the government had instituted a requirement for non Indian nationals to require permission to re enter the country should they leave within 2 months. I found this out when I arrived, as I was scheduled to travel to another Asian country and return within a week. While traveling, I visited the Indian embassy and sat in the commissioners office while he was on the phone and, later, while he was purchasing bananas from a vendor visiting his office. He took my passport and told me to return the next day- which screwed up my trip- but I did it. After my visit was complete I went back to India. When leaving India for the US, they noticed I had left the country within 2 months. I pointed out I received permission from the local embassy. They then claimed upon return to India I should have registered with a local government agency. I explained I didn't know this, no one had told me. They removed me from my flight. I checked into a hotel and the following business day went to the agency. When it was my turn, they asked for copies of where I was staying, who my local relatives were, copies of their passports, copies of their electric bills - fortunately I had a uncle who helped me and sweet talked them a bit. I got a permission booklet, that night tried to rebook my flight, but nothing was available on my airline all week. I had to return to work, so i spent $800 and bought a one way ticket on another airline.

Maybe not as humiliating as what this poor guy had to go through, but my point is, governments can act incredibly irrationally in response to security threats. I realize the need to keep its citizens secure - but when they claim they don't want the terrorists to win, one has to wonder if they haven't, in fact, actually won already by slowly decimating our democracy.

bobsil13• 13 years ago

That sounds less like a security process and more like the Indian government's standard bumbling and red tape.

statictype• 13 years ago

I went through the same BS about not registering myself. The system is incredibly bureaucratic and frustrating. But on the other hand, you never really threatened.

JacksonGariety• 13 years ago

I am a US resident.

Flying from France back into the states through customs in Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport was the worst experience I've had with TSA.

First of all, a woman who was supposed to be managing the maze of lines tried to take my passport from my hand when I wasn't looking. I held it tight as she attempted to pull it away from me and she was clearly mad, yelling "I'm trying to help you!"

In line for the body scanner I was pulled aside for one of the random pat-downs. I didn't think about it at the time but it could've easily been the TSA employee who tried to take my passport form my hand.

The employee who was supposed to be giving the pat down was obviously reluctant to do it and asked me 4 times if I was okay with being touched inappropriately. I agreed 4 times, it took him 10 minutes to actually start giving me the pat down.

While I was being patted down another employee asked me if the bag that went through the scanner was mine. I said yes.

He began removing my clothes and charge cords and a few items I had purchased in France, and spreading them out on a table away from me.

I told him to stop and he asked why. I said I didn't want him to go through my belonging while I wasn't there and he didn't respond, but stepped away from the table.

After the pat down I re-assembled my luggage and continued boarding the plane. Just as I was about to leave security the officer came and put his hand on my shoulder and said that I "wasn't done with the security procedure yet."

He said I had to stand back from the table while he removed the items from my bag which I had just put back in. Apparently he removed my laptop and set it in one of the item-scanner bins at the end of the conveyor belt. He took 15 minutes to go through my bag, put everything back inside and sent me on my way.

Just before boarding I noticed my laptop had not been placed back in my bag. I darted back to security where the previous staff had been replaced by all-new employees. I spent the next 30 minutes trying to get them to dig through bins to find my MacBook, which was buried in a stack on the other side of security.

I made my flight by minutes.

tn13• 13 years ago

As a TSA officer if a person/his baggage sets off an explosive detector alarm, I think I wont let him fly until I am fully convinced that he is traveling with no malicious intent. How soon and how well I get convinced will depend on how competent I am at my job. Clearly the officers that handled this person were incompetent, unsympathetic and ignorant. That is a different problem altogether nothing related to freedom.

Simple1234• 13 years ago

Prove you are not fasting for Ramadan by eating this hamburger.

meapix3• 13 years ago

How did you remember all that stuff you wrote. The they said and you said. Either you recorded, you had a pen and paper. Or this article is full of lies.

u2328• 13 years ago

It's obviously meant as an approximation.

Look, you can believe it or not, but that's just your opinion. Everybody gets to make up their mind for themselves.

meapix3• 13 years ago

approximation? dude, that's some serious business.

mherdeg• 13 years ago

I asked JetBlue about this (via Twitter…) and they said ( https://twitter.com/JetBlue/status/370659852546109441 )

""@mherdeg The govt agencies can speak for themselves. We stand by our crewmember's decision, and regret the inconvenience this caused.""

Interesting.

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

In another tweet, they claim that the responsibility lies with the government agencies who screened me: https://twitter.com/chimeracoder/status/370663486470103040

(which seems to contradict your tweet: https://twitter.com/cgervasi/status/370675125244284928)

If that's the case, I'm not sure why the person who denied me boarding was the JetBlue agent, not a TSA agent.

tomp2• 13 years ago

What's happening? Where is the Hacker News I knew? I have up-voted at least 4 grayed-out comments that were opposing the prevalent view (that TSA is pure tyranny, an US government by extension) but nothing our of the ordinary - people contributing their opinion to the conversation.

Don't downvote if you disagree!

Lifebot• 13 years ago

While I personally don't agree with some of those who were grayed-out, I agree with this sentiment.

Thing is, I sometimes want to know how many people disagree with a comment. I almost wish there were thumbs up/down icons to signify how many people agree with a comment, separate from the downvote/up system that indicates if a comment is off-topic or has no content.

Jugurtha• 13 years ago

Try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niaGh5Jx_Oo

mansr• 13 years ago

About 6 months ago, I had the explosives detector at SFO flag me as suspect after a random pat-down. What followed was a second, slightly more thorough, pat-down and a very thorough search of my carry-on. It all took about 15 minutes, and the TSA staff were nothing but friendly throughout the procedure.

Whenever you fly, keep two things in mind: 1) the TSA staff are mostly just doing their job, and 2) not all of them are assholes.

noisy_boy2• 13 years ago

Those two arguments can be applied for practically any profession.

If you are mentioning them as offset to the issue at hand, they are no comfort to people who are subject to racial profiling/harassment (or to people who condemn such actions).

Otherwise they are just redundant statements.

logn• 13 years ago

Regarding this line: "The shaking motion was entirely involuntary, and I couldn’t force my limbs to be still, no matter how hard I concentrated."

... I think that's adrenaline. Fight or flight instinct. Next time, ask your doctor about beta blockers, or ask your bartender about a double-shot of liquor.

j2d32• 13 years ago

The greatest damage done by 9/11 was not the actual destruction of the towers and the deaths of all those people, but the (sadly predictable) reaction of our government, particularly the Patriot Act, the creation of the TSA and the Dept. of Homeland Security, and the emboldening of the NSA, CIA, FBI, and the NYPD.

vikas5678• 13 years ago

I've been through special security checks, inspections, etc. Last year I was carrying something my parents sent me, TSA asked me to take it out, and ran chemical tests on it. I said do whatever you want with it, and was nice to them. They in turn were nice to me, and allowed me to carry it on the plane, while I was ready to throw it away if they didn't want it on the plane. Maybe its just me, but this guy just had the wrong attitude through the initial part of the process. I feel sorry for what happened to him later.

kunil• 13 years ago

If only everyone as submissive as you are! Perfect citizen that every police state needs

bdunbar• 13 years ago

My take away isn't 'don't fly during x' but 'don't fly at all'.

par• 13 years ago

Hindu guy here. I'm sure I'll be buried but the last time I opted out of a millimeter wave scan, I was also tested for explosives. I did set it off multiple times and was taken to the back room for a private screening. I was held in there, questioned for ten minutes, then I was on my way. I have not opted out since.

justsomeguynpdx• 13 years ago

Not that anyone should be treated like this, but I suspect they literally don't even know the difference (or even that there is) between Hinduism and Islam. If you're gonna profile, at least know your freaking religions!

cranefly• 13 years ago

We are only getting one side of the story here. Would love to hear it from the other side. I think if one swabbed positive for explosives in a triage you could expect something like this in or out of Ramadan.

SplrrtFlll• 13 years ago

Much of the misunderstanding, I imagine, is that people who have never worked in a lab, such as these TSA employees, think that 'swabbed positive' means 'touched explosives'.

These quick tests just use a reagent that reacts with a part of a molecule. In the case of an explosives test, I imagine it responds to molecules with a -NO2 group. That could be TNT or any of a thousand perfectly innocent, harmless substances. A test that tests for the whole molecule, with a smaller (but still non zero) chance of a false positive, would be too expensive and take too long for a situation like this.

If you're just testing average people, the chance of a false positive is orders of magnitude more likely than a real positive.

keerthiko• 13 years ago

Sigh, it's this hard even being a citizen and resident of the country. As a former international student, and now just living here and working (and soon to be booted because...immigration laws), this experience is so commonplace whenever interacting with the government it's not even funny. These topics on HN are commonly discussions about curbed American freedom under the government.

But there's a significant topic of interest for people all around the world when the (arguably) most powerful nation decided to stop playing Mr. Nice Guy with even its own citizens, and what that could mean for the rest of us.

I have pretty much stopped traveling except out of necessity (I cut down from 12 flights a year till 2011 to 1 flight in 2 years since) because of the huge hassle and strain security can become. Imagine what it was like when my (Indian) passport had Arabic stamps on it because it was issued in Oman (where I lived before I came here). I'm not even religious, but I was so often picked for "random checking" the booth probably knew me by name.

What bothers me more than the inconvenience and trauma this causes for people like me and the OP (although that bothers me a lot), is the massive waste of resources this form of civilian harassment is -- at least 7 officers were involved shuttling documents of some guy going on vacation for 4+ hours. All because of their (grossly incorrect, at that) racial profiling, lack of cultural knowledge, and general fear of people who don't look like themselves. Geez.

zmonkeyz• 13 years ago

Well i for one feel a lot safer now.

baddox2• 13 years ago

The fact that there are even people in this thread defending this procedure is incomprehensibly disgusting.

marshray• 13 years ago

He reliably set off the chemical detectors. We can assume that earns anyone additional scrutiny.

So the claim here seems to be that he received too much additional scrutiny because of his background. This certainly seems plausible, but he's not the first person to miss their plane due to the TSA either.

But unless we know how people of other backgrounds are scrutinized after they set off the chemical detectors are traveling alone, we can't conclude that he was racially or religiously profiled.

Even still, this is a substantially reduced claim and none of it really supports the conclusion "Don't fly during Ramadan".

khaylindris• 13 years ago

"Oh Beautiful, for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain..."

What has happened to my beautiful country? The one that I learned about in 2nd grade, the one that always gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling, the one that I was proud of even before I knew what 'proud' meant. Where is that dreamy land?

In a way, we do it to ourselves. We elect officials that are 'tough on crime' that support enormous police forces. We empower the police state (not just the police but the gov't at large) out of fear. People in this country need to grow a pair. One of my friends actually said something to the effect of, "No, I don't care if the NSA searches through my private stuff, so long as it makes me safer." Mr. Franklin would've had a word with that young lady. Unfortunately that sentiment prevails a large number of people.

ChuckMcM• 13 years ago

I realized on the drive home that if we could sneak a sed script into the tools used to write appropriation bills in Congress, and had it swap budget allocation for NSA and NASA (only one letter difference!) next year we could be looking at half a dozen space stations and a base on the moon!

theklub• 13 years ago

Ugh, honestly we as a country should boycott flying until they straighten this shit out. I can't believe people are payed to harass others like this.

po• 13 years ago

I took a look at the ID and calmly pointed out that it said “August 2013” in big letters on the ID, and that the numbers “8/10” meant “August 10th, 2013”, not “August, 2010”. I added, “See, even the expiration sticker says 2013 on it above the date”. He studied the ID again for a moment, then walked out of the room again, looking a little embarrassed.

ISO-8601 date format people!

http://xkcd.com/1179/

ryderm2• 13 years ago

Hey chimeracoder,

I went to school with you and saw you at some ADI events and hackathons from time to time. Even if I dont know you more than in passing, hearing something like this about somebody I know hits much closer to home than hearing it on the news. There isn't much I can say that hasn't already been said here, and you probably won't read through these hundreds and hundreds of comments, but if you read this, I just want to say that I'm so sorry. This is disgusting, and I hope that you never have to deal with a clear violation of rights like this again.

chimeracoder17• 13 years ago

Thank you thank you thank you thank you so much for writing this comment.

I had no idea that this blog post would blow up the way it has, reaching far more people than I ever thought. I originally wrote it with people like you in mind - people who know me personally, and otherwise would never have realized that someone they know personally was affected by our policies like this.

The post was really difficult to write - I didn't want to have to relive that experience again just to put it onto the page - but seeing a comment like this makes it worth it.

ryderm2• 13 years ago

I saw the title earlier today and didn't read it, but then when it later had so many comments I figured it was important. I was pretty shocked when I recognized the picture and github username. I'm really glad that you did write it, and I'm glad that I could make it worthwhile for you :)

Safe travels,

Ryder

downandout• 13 years ago

Whether it's the NSA or the TSA, the American public is finally getting a glimpse at how shockingly little freedom our laws actually afford us. For every protection we think we have, there is a gaping exception that can be invoked by virtually any government employee that feels like it. The US government of 2013 essentially can and will do anything it wants, when it wants, with very little resistance from the courts, the public, or politicians. Sadly, I'm not sure that the political will exists to fix any of it.

ballard2• 13 years ago

As a critical issue: there needs to be a mobile app, which upon opening, immediately begins live recording of video and audio to a remote server/s and posts them on vimeo/YouTube/etc.

If this already happens to exist, I'm interested.

thewarrior• 13 years ago

As a muslim this makes me scared of ever going to the USA.

sunyl• 13 years ago

bad day

sfguy• 13 years ago

For the record India has the second largest number of Muslims in the world. So just because you are from india doesn't mean you are Hindu.

honzzz5• 13 years ago

The fact that they refused to give him any water stuns me the most. Is this really not illegal in the US? Is this not considered a torture? Is this not so obvious abuse of power that the huge media scandal is assured? Is this not the thing that officials who do that to the detained person lose their job or even go to jail for? Because I believe that in my country all of those would be true. How can any country in which all of those are not true call itself "the land of free"?

EDIT: People are discussing here whether or not the US is on their way to became an oppressive regime. I don't understand that. In my book if the country allows this kind of behaviour of their officials and if I understand the word 'oppression' correctly... it already is an oppressive regime. Simple as that.

leke2• 13 years ago

A tech company I worked for a while back wanted to send me to the States, and also China to do some work. I refused on both requests because of stories like this I've heard. I just tell them it's because of family commitments, which is always a handy excuse. Other countries I would never go to are Russia, Saudi Arabia, UAE and pretty much anywhere in Africa. It's pretty sad actually, but I guess I'm way too paranoid.

laxk• 13 years ago

Where are you from?

honzzz5• 13 years ago

I feel so sorry for this guy and I just think that I would rather 'risk' dying in a terrorist attack while flying with him than live in a society that needs do this to some random guy in order to feel safe. I get that they need to be careful when something triggers explosive detector alarm... but this? Pressuring the guy for hours without water which I would not be afraid to call a torture? Is that really necessary?

At what point does reasonable safety turn into cowardly society?

girvo2• 13 years ago

I've wanted to move from Australia to Silicon Valley for a few years now. I mean, I'm an entreprenurial software engineer: it's where I'm _supposed_ to be, right?

But, over the past few years, I've learnt more and more about the US of A. And I don't like how things are done over there.

Sure, Australia isn't perfect (if I hear anyone say "Boat People" once more, I'm going to punch them right in the face), and I'm a young, single upper middle class White male: I shouldn't have any issues, right?

But that's not the point. The fact that the US and even the UK have ended up this paranoid...

I no longer want to move. Hell, I want to move back to New Zealand to be honest, if it gets any worse here in Aus.

And that's a loss for me personally, and for your country as well.

----

EDIT

Please convince me that it's not all that bad... that rights aren't being eroded, and that I wouldn't have to turn a blind eye to prejudiced treatment against my neighbours. Convince me that I should still come...

I really want to, but I'm honestly frightened of what might happen to me if I do.

hhandoko• 13 years ago

Canada seems to be opening doors for tech entrepreneurs. If I have the chance, that's probably where I'd like to go.

w_t_payne• 13 years ago

Did it occur to anybody else that these laws are being used to legitimize racial discrimination and harassment?

hello_some2• 13 years ago

The West becomes the East, East becomes West

hello_some2• 13 years ago

Why is this story not as big as the Brazilian guy held at Heathrow? that was for 'only' 9 hours!

_ainsoph_• 13 years ago

Perhaps because that guy is the partner of the journalist that first revealed all the things NSA has being doing

Fuxy• 13 years ago

Well this story vaguely reminds me of post communist Romania where all newly freed government agencies were fucking with people however they wanted. And I can tell you now it wasn't any ordinary governmental agency that searched his apartment it was the CIA or NSA.

FridayWithJohn• 13 years ago

I honestly used to think America was the best country in the world... but lately I've been seeing more and more shocking things. Very sad indeed. I would have been terrified if that happened to me.

Confusion4• 13 years ago

This story seems at odds with the idea that the NSA collects massive amounts of data about everyone, or at least with the idea that it is capable of making use of that data, by sorting and qualifying it properly.

If the NSA needs to know so much about people to protect us from terrorists, why did the TSA, NYPD and FBI have to ask this guy these questions? Shouldn't one telephone call to the NSA have resulted in 'no known risks'?

Of course, putting on my tinfoil hat, this may be on purpose. A few such incidents may be necessary to give us the idea that they are in the dark. The entire thing may have been a charade, caused by the 'telephone call' not helping out.

blisterpeanuts• 13 years ago

Gosh, I feel safer already.

tbarbugli• 13 years ago

A better title: Don't live in the USA

thehme• 13 years ago

I feel terrible that this happened to the author and his experience clearly shows the incompetence of the government bureaucratic agencies - no water?! that is outrageous! I wish I could say that this will not happen again (to him or others), but the truth is that it probably will. Perhaps one positive aspect of this horror story is that the author has shared this with everyone and hopefully this can help educate people for positive change. I felt chills reading the author's anecdote and I am astonished by his courage and composure; I don't know if I'd be able to handle it myself.

nightcomer• 13 years ago

Clearly misleading title. What does it have to do with Ramadan/Muslims. You are just trying to create a bad effect. I think clearly this is a publicity stunt. What did you get from writing this? Happiness? Stop hurting other's sentiments.

thomaslangston• 13 years ago

Sincerely, what can I, someone not involved directly in this incident, do to prevent incidents like this one from happening to other people?

Sending messages to airlines and congresspeople seems ineffectual. What are my other options?

blablabla1233• 13 years ago

I once moved into an apartment with bed bugs. So this is what I learned:

- at least in Germany you cannot buy bed bug spray in a regular store

- if you have bed bugs, it's recommended to contact an exterminator that will cost you hundreds (or even thousands)

- you can still buy spray against bed bugs. The warning sign on the spray is one level below "explosive". As you can imagine, the stuff you get in the store says that you mustn't use it indoors.

Sorry mate, not sure which Spray Brand you used, but using bed bug spray is really dangerous.

You say that the TSA, FBI etc. are ignorant. You are ignorant too by not reading the spray bottles you use.

flippyhead• 13 years ago

Good god!

fayyazkl• 13 years ago

things like these and also those similar to having googled words such as "pressure cooker" and "bomb" at some point on my machine in the US and being thwarted by a SWAT team at some point, really scares some one to even be in the US because he would have all the convincing signs like a beard, being a Muslim and might actually have to fast.

npcomplexity1• 13 years ago

There is already an A/B experiment of sort being run on ability of the "chemical detectors". There are lots of airports outside of US that do not have these capabilities. If there is no statistical difference between the terrorist attack incidence directly from the said chemicals then it would be an interesting data point to add to the study of security theatre.

eaxitect• 13 years ago

Although the author had a horrible experience, it has nothing to do it with Ramadan. Beside, there is no mention of Ramadan by TSA agent to him except a silly question/example about Hinduism. So the title is very presumptuous: "this happened to me because I've tried to fly in Ramadan" which is as bad as TSA agent's state of mind.

petilon• 13 years ago

Bin Laden promised us that "America will not be able to dream of security until we live in security in Palestine." The TSA and NSA are making Bin Laden's dream come true. Our overreaction to Bin Laden is causing more harm than Bin Laden did. Bin Laden killed 3000 Americans, but more Americans -- over 4000 -- were killed in the Iraq war. We also did ourselves a lot of economic harm, having spent close to a trillion dollars on the Iraq war alone. Spurred by Bin Laden, we are doing this to ourselves. And I am not even counting the over 100,000 Iraqi civilians killed in the war and the damage to goodwill towards Americans.

auctiontheory• 13 years ago

At least 2 billion people in the world would instantly know that "Mukerjee" is not remotely a Muslim name. And yet the FBI doesn't.

That's our problem right there, at home and abroad: Total and complete lack of cultural knowledge among the (US-born, mostly white) folks in our security and military forces.

Of course, in this individual case (which does not excuse their behavior) he could have made everyone's life easier by just saying "I am not Muslim, I want a BLT" since that was obviously their suspicion.

vithlani• 13 years ago

LOL!

Don't be fooled by this post, the dude comes from a country where rape is a regular no-comment thing.

Where a minister cost the exchequer $50 billion by giving away spectrum.

Where the state army regularly massacres its own citizens in the name of progress (forced land seizures), citizens who have no political options and have turned to Naxalism out of desperation.

Look, brown man travels for 10 years in the US and gets hassled once -- with some justification it seems (the chemical tests came back positive). I can guarantee that and average American travelling to India would face a much harsher ordeal at the hands of the locals. Just ask any white woman tourist.

Yo...Aggrieved Bong! Karma is a bitch and somehow all the hassling of Whitey when he is in Calcutta had to come around. In this case it landed on your ass. Move along and stop pretending to be a hipster with your "virtual corporations" and shit. Or would you prefer going back to the motherland and working for Didi?

I for one would be happy to be subjected to such a process IF it also had the effect of catching the REAL terrorists. The fact that it does not is the real tragedy here.

Don't Fly During Ramadan

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