Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-migrants-skilled-workers-integration-labor-market-bureaucracy-language-housing/a-77853162

by theanonymousone • 16 days ago

290 781 16 days ago

dw.com

Alien1Being• 16 days ago

German discrimination and racism towards migrant workers and visible minorities is world class.

And with Alternative für Deutschland / AfD rising rapidly, this is only going to get much, much worse.

https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/70478/study-finds-racis...

https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/germany-...

olelele• 16 days ago

I moved to Germany 15 years ago from Scandinavia. Integrating here is really tough. The bureaucratic systems are very opaque and small mistakes in paperwork can cause a lot of problems...

rawbot4• 16 days ago

And the problem is that they might not be YOUR mistakes, but mistakes from someone in the government office... ask me how I know about it...

expedition32• 16 days ago

Germany is a remarkably rural and insular country compared to the Netherlands whose foundational myth comes from bankers and merchants.

ButlerianJihad3• 15 days ago

Interesting story about Europe's medieval history, is that the bankers and loan officers and financial professionals were all drawn from a certain ethnoreligious community. And this intrinsic nature of being the foremost, and usually the only, bankers and financial professionals, who were essentially authorized to commit usury and extract interest from the populace... probably had a lot to do with their public perception, their lack of assimilation or integration into the prevailing local faith/religion/cultures, and their relentless persecutions, expulsions, and genocide.

Nevertheless, all that ugly history doesn't seem like it's put a damper on their ambitions or status through the 21st century.

aleph_minus_one26• 15 days ago

Germany is a remarkably rural and insular country compared to the Netherlands whose foundational myth comes from bankers and merchants.

There existed no "Germany" before the second half of the 19th century, only a list of various sovereign states.

Tade04• 16 days ago

Foreigners and native Germans 'unite' in discriminatory attitudes

I don't think it's just the Germans and there's definitely an additional factor at play.

sdsdssweew213• 16 days ago

I would hardly call it "world class". Most of the world is much harsher place to migrants than any EU member country. Privileged, well paid expats may be treated nicely in most of the world, but that does not apply to refugees and people who move for low-paid manual labor.

uludag• 15 days ago

Well paid expats wearing a hijab, who definitely aren't refugees, will not be treated nicely in Germany. Lived and worked in Germany and saw it a lot. It's a low bar indeed to treat skilled labor coming to your country nicely that sadly Germany can't even pass.

sillyfluke• 15 days ago

Sure, but I think what grates on people with Germany is the "they should know better" aspect of it. People have (or had) expectations of EU countries they don't have of "the harsher places".

prolly972• 16 days ago

I mean... yes discrimination doesn't feel nice... but it's not as if people who come to Germany where forced to do so by the germans. I'm not from Germany, but the vibes in some of the high-muslim density parts of Germany I've been to have likewise felt unwelcome, unsafe and hostile (towards me as a scandinavian).

So it feel a bit more complicated than "germans are racist, BAD". Anecdotally I've heard that it's hard for any other nationality to do business in germany, simply because they prefer to do business with other germans. It's their country, we just need to accept those cultural differences, and their right to do as they please in their own country.

There's plenty of countries whose laws or attitudes I don't agree with, and that I just don't visit or have any ambition of staying in. China, Burkina Faso, Somalia and Chad are a few examples.

talon86355• 15 days ago

Not to mention the fact that all of those home countries are equally if not more openly racist and restrictive of immigrants from the other direction

The question is, is any country “perfect” in this regard, showing zero degree of self-selecting and internal favoritism? I suspect not, because it’s not really possible to have a country without focusing on, well, itself, first and foremost. Of course integrated immigrants ARE part of “the country”. But if immigrations swells too fast and/or immigrants are not well integrated, then of course that can present obvious non-racism-based problems for the county’s finances, infrastructure, economy, and culture.

Is anyone outside the west throwing the word “racist” around so liberally? It seems to west thinks it’s somehow evolved beyond the natural constraints of state/tribe. But, of course, it can’t.

heyheyhouhou• 15 days ago

I'm from a "southern" country and I lived in Germany for 10 years. My kids were born there.

Last year we decided to move to my home country because of "too many things" but also fed up of feeling an immigrant.

Few months ago I met a German family living around here in a coastal area. I asked them why they moved here and they answered me straight to my face "Because in Germany there are too many immigrants". I think the joke tells itself.

talon86355• 15 days ago

I’d be various curious what country you’re from that such people would feel comfortable moving to. But of course don’t share if you don’t want.

nubg2• 15 days ago

where are you from?

DStiego7• 15 days ago

I don't think it's an obvious joke.

In general, you can totally be against the way immigration is handled in one place while being an immigrant elsewhere.

The family you mentioned likely considered themselves different from the immigrants that they complained about.

I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with these people I don't know, but the general point is fair.

jeroenhd2• 15 days ago

I asked them why they moved here and they answered me straight to my face "Because in Germany there are too many immigrants".

This reminds me of those UK elderly living out their pensions in Spain voting for Brexit to reduce immigration. Thanks to outrage media, I think this public perception of immigration ruining everything is almost everywhere now.

schnitzelstoat• 16 days ago

I lived there for around 6 months like 15 years ago so perhaps it's changed a lot since then.

But even as an Englishman, it was very different to home. I remember the supermarket was shut all Sunday and was only open until 12 on the Saturday, and it shut early in the week too (at like 5pm or 6pm or something?) so by the time I'd got the train back home from work it was already closed. I had to get up early every Saturday just to make sure I could get the shopping done.

I remember once I waved at my neighbours who were sitting eating in a common garden area and they acted super confused that I would wave to them.

It didn't seem like an especially friendly place and there were so many rules about everything too, like just being able to take the rubbish or recycling out you had specific days and times.

ido2• 16 days ago

Supermarket opening times are definitely not that restrictive (these days, but I don't recall it ever being like you mentioned & I moved to Berlin in 2013). The ones near me are usually open early morning till late evening (8-10pm), monday to saturday.

myrmidon• 16 days ago

There is a lot of regional variation, mainly between the south and the rest of the country. 8am to 8pm monday to saturday is typical for Bavaria (Munich, Nuremberg).

throw-the-towel14• 15 days ago

The way you call 8pm "late evening" confirms GP's experience :)

TMWNN2• 16 days ago

But even as an Englishman, it was very different to home. I remember the supermarket was shut all Sunday and was only open until 12 on the Saturday, and it shut early in the week too (at like 5pm or 6pm or something?) so by the time I'd got the train back home from work it was already closed. I had to get up early every Saturday just to make sure I could get the shopping done.

If it were the Anglosphere that had very restrictive laws about store hours/days of operation, and Germany/Austria with pretty much unlimited hours, this would be the #1 topic brought up in any online discussion whatsoever about the US/UK/etc. But because of DACH's smaller cultural visibility, it isn't brought up nearly so often in actuality.

ForHackernews• 16 days ago

This is funny because when I moved from the USA to UK I was caught off guard by "Sunday trading laws"[0] and even where not legally prohibited, it seems like most retailers other than vape stores or corner shops close at 5:30 or 6 pm, Since covid, we have to book an appointment in advance to go to the tip.

I think things have improved a little bit over the past few years – one large retail park near us advertises "late opening" (7 pm! ha!) on Thursdays — but it's still difficult to run errands during the week. I don't understand why it makes sense economically to only have your store open when no one with a 9-5 job can shop there.

[0] https://www.gov.uk/trading-hours-for-retailers-the-law

kuerbel• 16 days ago

I'm from Switzerland and live in Germany and I think it is very relaxed. Too relaxed for my liking to be honest. Sometimes the bins are still out in the evening??? What kind of anarchy is this ;-)

Really, it's just what you are accustomed with.

Stores closing on Sunday is a good thing I think, it makes it easier for families to have a day together and kind of resets the week. On Saturdays they are also open until 8pm, some even until 10pm or so.

I remember once I waved at my neighbours who were sitting eating in a common garden area and they acted super confused that I would wave to them.

You need to yell "Moin" very loudly. If you are in Southern Germany, you need to yell "MOIN" twice as loud to establish dominance.

Kurtz79• 16 days ago

https://i.imgur.com/Eheu90I.png

joshvm• 15 days ago

Any expat who has lived in Europe knows the pain of having to run to the train station on a Sunday because you ran out of some ingredient.

panick21_4• 15 days ago

Totally agree. Living in Berlin as Swiss person is crazy. You have shops open for so long. Late trains. Crazy partys and so on. Complete chaos with garbage and things like that.

I don't mind closed on Sunday but I wish we had a bit more stores open until a bit later. My parents were in health care so for me people working late or nights was always normal.

maccard2• 16 days ago

It’s funny you give out about supermarket opening hours when being English - Sunday trading laws are arcane in England too!

sph• 16 days ago

I remember visiting London and being surprised that pubs would close at 11pm and night life, outside of clubs, would pretty much die. In the largest city in Europe! Mad stuff.

When I moved back to Italy I had forgotten that shops close between 13 and 15:30. Every country has their own little quirks

gib4446• 15 days ago

Have you visited London recently? Particularly east. It's got the unfriendliness but also complete total breakdown of the social contract and social decency

Music and video calls without headphones on all transport all the time. Shoes and socks off on train seats. Zombies barging into you constantly. Nobody letting people off the train.

Throwing rubbish on the ground. Leaving it on trains and buses.

Vaping on the tube

Pushing through the barriers at stations is normalised

Everyone does whatever the hell they like everywhere all the time. Constant antisocial behaviour. It's hell. An absolute epicenter of selfishness

I dream of a rule based society like Germany or UK of years ago

Edit: am a Brit but wouldn't live in London for love nor money. Obviously a lot of those issues aren't just in London. This isn't "foreigner repeating right wing talking points" people love trying here

wvbdmp• 15 days ago

We have all those things in Germany, including the converse stereotype that Brits like to queue and act proper and polite.

Guess we both need to redirect our fantasies of civility to Japan or something.

push0ret2• 15 days ago

Of course it's people who don't even live in London who paint completely skewed pictures of the city. It's sad to see how much negative propaganda is being spread to induce fear, uncertainty and doubt. Why are you doing this?

Yes, almost everything you mentioned happens. You're probably going to come across some of it if you spend a bit more time here, and in some areas more than others. But you are exaggerating it all significantly - in reality these things are sporadic nuisances and it is SO far away from "everybody does what the hell they like" (implying lawlessness). Shameful really that you participate in this spread of bullshit about an amazing city.

NicuCalcea3• 15 days ago

I agree with the breakdown of the social contract in London, but not with the unfriendliness. I've lived in the UK for eight years and have travelled to many parts of England and Wales.

I've never felt as unwelcome in London as I do almost every time I leave it. Constant suspicious looks, questions about who I am and what the purpose of me being there is, the occasional downright xenophobia.

To give you a recent example, just a couple of weeks ago I was in a supermarket in Bangor stocking up on some water ahead of a hike in the Lake District. My train was delayed, and I am now about to miss the last bus for the next two hours (still needed the water). I explain this to the guy ahead of me in the queue, asking if I could maybe jump ahead of him. He looks at me, says "No", laughs, and then proceeds to scan his items as slowly as he can. Not everyone is like that, but this kind of thing happens all the time.

I definitely believe that you'll feel more of a sense of belonging outside London if you're a local, but as a non-local, it is not friendly at all. And the further away from Britain you are from (geographically and culturally), the worse you are treated. I noticed the difference in reaction when I told people I am Moldovan compared with my ex-partner telling them she is Dutch, and my non-white friends tell me stories that are even worse. London can be unfriendly and isolating, but I'd never live outside London and a few of the other cosmopolitan cities.

graemep12• 15 days ago

Have you visited London recently?

I have and did not experience any of that. Not all that different from when I last lived there in the last 90s.

red-iron-pine• 15 days ago

to quote a relative "Germany is a great country to live in, except for all of the Germans"

ant6n• 15 days ago

I thought that’s what they say about Berlin

cmrdporcupine2• 15 days ago

This is what my German father always said. Partially why he moved to Canada in the 60s. Partially a feeling of claustrophobia around rules and regulations. And lack of uncontrolled access to nature, lack of real wilderness, etc.

I kind of get it. I found my German grandparents baffling at some level. Simultaneously extremely warm and generous but at the same time intensely critical and harsh at times. My Oma was perhaps warmer on account of being Alsatian, but we had a language barrier.

Visiting Germany for the first time when I was 19 was a bit of a brain-melting experience. Like a bunch of things about my father finally made sense.

superze• 16 days ago

Why would anyone wanna go to a country that pays them low abuses them and they end up alone with no friends because this is Germany.

bell-cot2• 16 days ago

Various combinations of "they didn't know", "still better than the place they left", "their experience wasn't that bad", and "needed for their resume".

ramon156• 16 days ago

and they end up alone with no friends

This sounds like a personal issue. Is Germany at fault here?

rawbot4• 16 days ago

It is a personal issue for sure. But people from "warmer" cultures often struggle with the "colder" culture, at least in Northern Germany. And that sometimes leads to people from other countries seeking or making friend group with other migrants.

IAmBroom2• 15 days ago

pays them low abuses them

Sounds more like systemic prejudice than "OP lacks social skills".

stronglikedan• 15 days ago

not to mention taxes the shit out of them with little to no return on their investment

throw-the-towel14• 15 days ago

In my case (not Germany but also in the EU), I just bought into European propaganda too much.

DStiego7• 15 days ago

Can you give examples? I'm curious which of your beliefs have changed

parheric3• 16 days ago

I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in positions of leadership, your chances of "getting ahead" are going to be limited, especially when you're competing against natives.

The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be trusted in a senior/leadership position (no matter how good your German language skills are).

The good part, from my experience the people here are great, friendly, and yeh it takes time to get to know them but it pays off in the long run. But professionally... it's complicated.

So while people come here, work and stay for a few years, they're going to leave when they realise that despite their best efforts, they need to do 10x more than someone who is simply "a native" to the country (or... you'll stay in a position and just rot until you move on).

And this sadly affects applications for jobs (a photo is pretty much required which would be considered illegal in other countries like the UK), apply for apartments (which country is your last name from... automatic rejection), just to mention a few key cases that really affect immigration.

i've lived+worked in 4 different countries on 3 continents and i think you always have to expect to adjust to the culture, it's not going to change for you, nor should it. But if you want to progress professionally (and Germany NEEDS tech-imports, the tech culture here is a disaster, it's embarrassing) you're going to have to promote these people into high positions, not just view them as "cheaper labour".

whateverboat2• 16 days ago

I think this is the biggest factor. Ambitious people who want to become rich do not have any opportunities in Germany. It is good for people who are content with a middling but comfortable life. That's why most ambitious people leave.

4gotunameagain3• 16 days ago

This is not a bad thing. Wealth inequality is destructive for societies.

parheric3• 16 days ago

Bang on... it's initially about opportunity. But when that runs out, people move on.

And with the offer of DE citizenship where you're not giving up your birth citizenship, most people will take it, and move somewhere else in EU with a shiney new DE passport.

FinnLobsien2• 15 days ago

This has been true, but I think that promise of middling comfort is being eroded.

rdtsc• 15 days ago

Germany. It is good for people who are content with a middling but comfortable life. That's why most ambitious people leave.

Just curious how well does that work? I assume it’s being able to have a job, have a place to live, travel once a year. Medical care not tied to employment but hopefully easily accessible?

zihotki• 15 days ago

That resonates a lot with my experience in Netherlands. It's way friendlier for expats but the barrier is there

IAmBroom2• 15 days ago

[flagged]

dang2• 15 days ago

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dgellow• 15 days ago

Just to add, the experience can be quite different between Bundesland (for example the tech culture in Berlin can be really decent IMHO). And the Bewerbungsfoto is technically not allowed to be required (but often expected in practice, though I personally don’t remember sending one).

Overall that comment sounds quite true based on my experience. I had a way better time contracting for foreign companies from Germany

gehwartzen• 15 days ago

One thing I will point out is that some of this partially due to coming to Germany with a US passport. Specifically, banks in Europe are increasingly weary of allowing US passport holders to open full account due to the international reach of the IRS and the additional bourdons it creates for banks. A US citizen living abroad still has a responsibilities with regard to reporting financial activities to the IRS. This is an extra liability and risk for foreign banks so in many cases they chose to simply not deal with Americans.

I was born in Germany and have a German passport. When I was a teen my family moved to the US and and have since also gotten my American citizenship. I have been considering moving back. I talked to my aunt who lives in Switzerland who told me not to bother trying to open a Swiss account it’s virtually impossible as long as you have a US passport. Germany is slightly better but at most there are 2-3 (mainly online only) banks where you might be able to get a basic (ie bare bones) account.

The IRS has the ability to compel foreign banks to freeze assets of US citizens living abroad or at least to make it a paperwork nightmare for them. I can understand why a company might not want to promote an individual to senior positions if banks are weary of dealing with them.

Cyph0n• 15 days ago

This is the case virtually everywhere thanks to FATCA, unless the country’s banking system is OK with getting punished. It applies not just to US citizens, but also to US permanent residents.

FabCH15• 15 days ago

Your aunt is sort of correct, but not really.

If you move to CH on your German EU passport, register at the local authorities and get your residency card, most traditional Swiss banks will open an account for you. You just won’t be able to do it online or with the Neo-banks. But an actual physical UBS office or Kantonbank will eventually be able to handle the paperwork for you.

jmyeet• 15 days ago

One thought I hate reading this is: do you need upward mobility?

It's a serious question because in an ideal (IMHO) society, people can have full and satisfying lives with security and family without becoming a CEO. In the US, for example, there's an obsession with "getting ahead" but, by definition, only so many people can get ahead. And why do they want to? Because, at least in part, a basic job in insufficient to make ends meet in most cases now. This is a form of coercion.

This is orthogonal to the issue of German social inclusion and forms of xenophobia (eg in the housing applications you mention).

Personally I'd rather in a society where everyone's needs are met and it's not a race against a rising tide where only 20% of the population are above it.

parheric3• 15 days ago

I don’t think it’s a question of needing anything. Do you need to immigrate to Germany? Or another country for that matter?

No - why do you do it? For upward mobility in a job market that is screaming out for foreign skilled workers.

When that upward mobility is no longer there, why should they stay?

carlosjobim5• 13 days ago

by definition, only so many people can get ahead

That's the core of the great lie which so massively limits people.

Everybody can get ahead. It's not about comparing yourself with others - and has never been about that. That's school boy logic, to think in limited terms like that.

Can all members of an orchestra become better musicians, even though some will still be better than others? Can all members of a football team become better players?

You can always become better at what you do, no matter what other people are doing. You are almost guaranteed to become better at what you do, if you're doing it everyday. The purpose of a business is to deliver productivity to the purchaser. The purpose of employing workers is for them to do work. As they become better at their work, they will produce more and should be paid more and given more responsibilities. Internal company hierarchy has little to do with it. It's not about getting in front of the other guy.

aleph_minus_one26• 15 days ago

hey need to do 10x more than someone who is simply "a native" to the country (or... you'll stay in a position and just rot until you move on).

Staying in a position for a long part of one's life is a very common situation for many Germans, too. The whole concept of that you must have a career seems to be deeply ingrained in US mentality.

So, I have a strong feeling that a lot of immigrants who feel they hit a glass ceiling are rather used to the USA understanding how a career works, and think because they are not promoted, they are discriminated against, when in reality it's rather that a promotion to a completely new role/title is much more uncommon in Germany than in the USA.

avemuri• 15 days ago

I think this is the type of answer that is frustrating to non-Germans. Hey don't look at that person who got promoted ahead of you despite you being more qualified. Look here instead at all these other people who didn't get promoted.

carlosjobim5• 14 days ago

The whole concept of that you must have a career seems to be deeply ingrained in US mentality.

But it makes more sense. If you're a normal human being, the longer you work with something the better you become at it. That's just natural. And then you should have your compensation increased to reflect that, or move to other ventures where your skills have better use.

programmertote2• 15 days ago

That sounds similar to what you experience in the US especially as a first gen immigrant. I see a glass ceiling (for the lack of a better word) here. Most of the leadership positions are occupied by US-born (mostly Caucasian) and/or to some degree, Indian immigrants. Sometimes, I truly wonder how/why this person got into the leadership role because it's fairly obvious that s/he lacks the essential qualities required for it. The only explanation is the politicking (typical in the corporate world) and somehow being able to impress others by talking fast and/or smooth (while giving false promises and failing upward).

All of this to say that your observation in Germany doesn't sound that different from mine in the US (been here for over 20+ years; been in a manager/director role in data for almost a decade).

hunterpayne8• 15 days ago

Have you ever worked for a European company? You could say the exact same things about every country on the planet except the US version is probably less extreme. Also the US companies are probably more complex to run so its more visible. I once worked for a company that probably manages some of your retirement. They had a team of 50 people working on a compiler for an internal language. Not a single person on that team knew how to actually write a compiler and the executive in charge was both the most arrogant and least capable executive I have ever worked with. So the idea that this is somehow US specific is pretty absurd.

Derbasti• 15 days ago

The problem is, management requires stronger language skills than engineering.

While an engineer can usually get by with good English, a manager in a German company with German clients and German bosses also requires excellent command of German. I would think that this would equally apply to any other country and their native language.

Perhaps Germany is a bit unusual in that it fosters a strong small-company culture, with few levels of management. There is no "engineering ladder" in a company with only a single layer of management between engineers and CEO.

blablabla123• 15 days ago

a photo is pretty much required which would be considered illegal in other countries like the UK

I work since over 15 years as SWE and have been job hopping most of the time. Only during one job hunt I put a (professional) photo on my CV. While a photo on the CV is obviously not illegal, employers aren't allowed to demand it since 2 decades. But I agree there is a bias.

While I'm fully German so to say, I have a foreign last name literally from centuries ago. For most of the time this was never an issue, at best a conversation starter. But companies where the daily language is German (hint: these companies usually suck) I definitely had weird situations before. Also with some recruiters, especially from the UK.

laylower• 14 days ago

You are right I think - but this is the case for everywhere besides startups in the US

Try going to Singapore, Japan, the UK, Netherlands, god forbid France, Germany, Latin America. Try going into engineering in major US companies - you know how hiring works and who is prioritized over whom.

If you are not local or you are not part of the inner circle of management the glass ceiling is there.

Some would say that it's just empirical evidence and they never had this problem. I would call them lucky.

CalRobert• 16 days ago

I like Germany, studied German a bit in college, etc but when my family and I decided to move somewhere that suited us because we could work from anywhere Germany really failed to impress. We ended up in the Netherlands which offers a a lot of the perks people associate with Germany (perhaps wrongly, good trains were one of the things we wanted) without as many of the downsides.

anthonj3• 16 days ago

I think there is also a chicken-egg problem in almost every country that doesn't use English as official language:

If you are not an engineer you must have an almost excellent level of local language --> an excellent level of a language is only possible if you are immersed daily over a long time and have the time to study --> to live there you need a job --> back to start

Different counties have different tolerances regarding how quick you pick up the local language. For Germany and France this tolerance is almost 0, for Netherlands it's much higher.

rawbot4• 16 days ago

In Germany, if you are an non-software Engineer, you MUST have an excellent level of the language. I have not seen a single Engineering position that doesn't require C1.

anthonj3• 15 days ago

I know some electronic and mech engineers with no german skills, but it's always in young startup in major cities.

prolly972• 16 days ago

Anecdotally I've noticed that among the coworkers I've had from other countries, the ones who manage to learn danish and stay, have generally been in areas with lower density of foreign workers.

My theory is that in areas with lower densities of foreign nationals, you'd benefit more socially form learning the local language.

bossyTeacher2• 15 days ago

This makes sense. By default, foreigners stick with their fellow countrymen pretty much everywhere. Not having them around gives foreigners a reason to socialise outside their bubble. I believe this is the reason why Denmark has the so called guetto laws.

aleph_minus_one26• 15 days ago

If you are not an engineer you must have an almost excellent level of local language --> an excellent level of a language is only possible if you are immersed daily over a long time and have the time to study

I disagree: for many jobs, it is expected that you have a decent level of English, but at least in Germany, you are often not immersed a lot in English. So you have to get decent in English with barely any immersion.

I thus have a feeling that because many Germans had to learn hard to get somewhat decent in English on their own, they have the same expectation on immigrants to learn really hard on their own to get good in German fast (without demanding immersion).

eldaisfish6• 15 days ago

Your argument ignores one important aspect - incentives.

English is the global lingua franca, hence the incentive to learn English is incredibly strong. Outside of Germany, what exact benefit does the German language get you?

anthonj3• 15 days ago

Some level of english is required in every country. And you are exposed to it quite frequently in a way or the other (which european country doest start teaching it from elementary school? ). My uni required me to follow course in english and write and defend a thesis in English. You are exposed to english a lot. And on top of that it's a simple lanuge.

Try to lean polish, or chinese. Or german as a Japanese native. Won't be that easy.

nikanj2• 15 days ago

The same problem also exists in countries that use English as their first language. If you don't speak passable english, you will have a hard time integrating or finding an engineering job.

lukeweston12343• 16 days ago

As someone who moved from the U.S to Germany and has been here for ~15 months, I figured I would drop a few comments while I'm running a NixOS rebuild.

Let me start with the wonderful things: Public transportation is nice, at least compared to the U.S. I like the shared sense of responsibility that Germans have with things like recycling. The directness is quite nice, in the U.S I often had to question if someone was being genuine or not, and that is not really a problem here. If you're into various hobbies, clubs, etc., Germany has really incredible communities and clubs for so many things, and they're very organized about this, it's quite nice. The nature is great, and I've really enjoyed exploring different areas.

As for the negatives, it's clear in Germany that you're looking at buying into their system, for life so to speak. You don't find yourself getting equity, trading stocks, buying a home, etc. You generally are expected to work, keep your head down, and hopefully acquire an apartment where the rent won't increase while you support the social system (for the record, I am more than okay with paying my share, but I was shocked at the difference in take home pay, and particularly how it feels compared to the U.S). Buying a home is likely not going to be in the cards for most, and there is so much paperwork, painful and expensive driving courses, and strange decisions as well with starting your own business. I have for instance a few projects where I could be taking revenue, but I specifically am not as it would make my visa situation more complicated, and am instead waiting for a year or two.

Germany is really not a convenience culture, I consistently find myself exhausted. This might sound stupid, but in the U.S, I can simply hop in a car and grab a reasonably healthy Chipotle bowl or similar, get enough protein and vegetables, etc. In Germany, there really are not so many places for quick food to grab, in general the food is actually quite poor, I don't find myself eating out at all.

Additionally, the language is brutal, it's hard to explain just how exhausting it is to learn while you're working full time. I have probably spent ~600 hours practicing yet I am still only about an A2 speaking level, with my understanding generally being a bit higher.

All in all, I'm happy I made the switch, it's been incredibly rewarding, but it truly is exhausting. I can see how this would add up, and I often think about how easy my life might be in the United States, and I miss this easy, casual life that's been replaced for something that really expects and demands so much from me, every single day and interaction.

inigyou5• 16 days ago

Are you in a big city? There is so much takeout food everywhere in Berlin.

4gotunameagain3• 16 days ago

In Germany, there really are not so many places for quick food to grab, in general the food is actually quite poor, I don't find myself eating out at all.

That is wildly false. First of all the availability of eating out options is directly influenced by where you are (e.g. in Berlin there is incredible variety of cuisines, price ranges and healthiness), and secondly almost every food or grocery you buy in Germany is of higher quality than the US equivalent.

I remember my shock when every single food item I bought in the US had sugar in it.

lukeweston12343• 15 days ago

I mean there are exceptions in cities with a higher immigrant presence like Berlin, but for a lot of Germany you're simply looking at low quality kebab, pizza, or burgers.

There also seems to be this general perception of food in the U.S being so bad, this is true for areas that are strongly lacking access, i.e inner cities, rural areas (much of the country to be fair!), but if you're in an agricultural hub in the U.S you can have absolutely incredible access to farmers markets and fresh produce. A lot of regional grocery stores have fresh sourdough and other breads similar in quality to the stuff you can find at Lidl/Aldi/Edeka.

thi22• 16 days ago

Germans tend to differentiate between getting takeout (something like kebab/pizza/asia box to go or delivered home) or eating out (going to a restaurant and eating there).

But I'd argue for most people getting into the car to get takeout is not very common.

lukeweston12343• 15 days ago

Yeah and honestly, it shouldn't be. It was really strange going back to the U.S and having family members suggest we drive to get ice cream. It's incredibly wasteful.

That being said, I've noticed that these takeout meals tend to be pretty low quality and unhealthy and I miss this middle ground that I could lean on once or twice a week.

soco2• 15 days ago

Thinking about my Swiss village, the only takeout worth thinking about is the delicious kebab downhill which doesn't do delivery. Otherwise it would be all eat.ch and similar. Why should I drive when I can get it delivered for no extra cost? I guess it's just a cultural difference, not a drawback (in either direction)

froh11• 15 days ago

clubs! yes! Vereine! they still are the heart and soul of Germany.

sscaryterry• 16 days ago

My take: Nothing is funny in Germany? :)

probably_wrong2• 16 days ago

I migrated to Germany 10+ years ago and I'm still here. Based on my limited experience, there are two big issues.

First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on. If you're a fresh immigrant who cannot find a job in an economic crisis (aka "most of them") you may very well wonder why staying here alone when you could be just as unemployed near your family.

Second: I won't say that Germany is xenophobic (not even all AfD voters) but I will say it's unfriendly. Work example: I've worked in multiple places in German without language issues, and yet many jobs automatically disqualify me because they ask for "minimum C2", a rank I don't have and one that many native Germans wouldn't achieve either. Add less chances to make a social circle, inflexibility, not great weather, and a government that's constantly calling you lazy and entitled, and that's how you get depressed.

The sad part is, Germany has all the pieces to be a great place to live that, for some reason, has decided to dismantle them all one by one.

polotics• 15 days ago

There are sclerotic forces at work in Germany.

I sometimes wonder if the digestion of East-Germany hasn't somehow hurt a post-war rejuvenated Western&Southern German spirit.

Maybe it's just post-traumatic-stress from the Russian occupation still lingering: 1989 is not that far, generations-wise.

There is hope still... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7MCko43YqeZ1x55O1DRtw

Schlagbohrer5• 15 days ago

East Germany was completely looted by West German corporations. There were east german workers who's final job was packing up all the machinery and inventory in their plant to ship to the west german company that had bought it all for €1, for example. Basically west germany did to the former east what private equity in the united states does to many companies- tear it down for scrap and sell it off. Then years later people blame the Ossies for just being backwards.

If you want more information about this I highly recommend Katja Hoyer's book, "Beyond the Wall" about life in the east and the problems of reunifcation.

throwawaypath2• 15 days ago

First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on.

Any minute now those millions of doctors, lawyers, and engineers from the MENA countries that flooded Germany the past decade will fix all that! Any minute!

_zoltan_3• 15 days ago

that was such a self inflicted wound that Europe, and Germany, did to itself. No wonder people are voting AfD.

and for the downvoters: these are facts. this is what the politician in Europe campaigned with, built platforms on and said for everything. "We'll get engineers, and doctors! Lots of workers!" Fast forward 5 years... How's the Willkommenkultur going you ask? Look at AfD. Look recently at the 10 million Switzerland votes.

And I'm writing this as an immigrant myself... It's sad.

bulbar10• 15 days ago

That perspective is weird as foreign health care workers right now are the only thing that keep the health care sector from collapsing.

throwaway274487• 15 days ago

Any minute now those millions of doctors, lawyers, and engineers from the MENA countries that flooded Germany the past decade will fix all that! Any minute!

I would assume this would take a generation. Y'all don't understand how lucky you have it, tbh.

frollogaston2• 15 days ago

Funny thing is in the US, Mid East background (especially Iranian) is stereotyped as being doctors and lawyers, sometimes engineers. I know at least they disproportionately go into medicine.

atoav3• 15 days ago

The issues you see now in Germany are the direct consequence of the Merkel era conservative government and its austerity policy. They really wanted to get the deficit down at all cost. And all cost included any sort of needed maintenance on public infrastructure.

mimischi• 15 days ago

Danke Merkel!

talon86355• 15 days ago

I have zero knowledge on German politics. But I do wonder, if these same problems are plagues many (most) big cities (and even countries) in the west, including very liberal and high spending governments, how can we safely conclude it’s a conservative problem (or a liberal one)?

criddell• 15 days ago

While Germany and some other Western countries were going along with the IMF and their austerity policies, Japan just kept printing money. Where would you rather live today? (I've been to Japan (Tokyo) but never Germany, so I have no opinion)

It's going to be interesting to see the long term consequences of the choices different nations made along the way.

froh11• 15 days ago

there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus, ackchyually...

I assume.thats your point here, but to bystanders: C2 is nearly native speaker language proficiency, nuanced, precise, eloquent.

if language production is the job, or impeccable understanding is a must have, like as a psychotherapist, then C2 is a reasonable requirement.

in contrast you can study in german language at a German university with C1 proficiency already.

mmarq2• 15 days ago

C2 is better than the language proficiency of the median native speaker.

A C2 speaker is comparable to a highly educated native speaker with a master degree who reads regularly.

torginus3• 15 days ago

Germans just love to exclude others based on their 'master race' sentiment - I have had this happen to others in my vicinity, so that's why I know it's not a personal grievance thing.

I had a friend rejected from a job (she was not German but lived in Germany, and spoke the language), as the recruiter told her they are looking only for people from DACH countries becase of some 'data protection laws' that can be enforced there. Since the job was remote, they argued, she could move out of the country at any point in time so she would not be eligible.

(I know this because I had another acquaintance who worked there)

eunos5• 15 days ago

there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus

A subtle hint they want born-and-raised German rather than immigrant.

cloudie78• 15 days ago

What has kept you from achieving C2, you’ve been there for 10y+

skylurk• 15 days ago

Just ask Mark Twain ;)

https://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html

probably_wrong2• 15 days ago

It may not sound like a satisfying answer, but: because I'm not here to earn a language certificate but rather to live and work, my German is more than fine, and I think my time could be better employed doing something else.

I've worked in German institutions for a long time now, I've published in German, I have no problems understanding people and, leaving my accent aside, people can understand me. I read books in German and understand German movies. My German is fine.

I could take time away from learning what's new in tech and science (a lot, apparently) to get a C2 but, and I may be wrong here, I don't think someone asking for "minimum C2" (which, again, disqualifies even native Germans) is engaging with the process in good faith.

I have no objections to learning the language, which is why I've done it. What I do object to is chasing a pointless certificate when I could be doing the thing I was brought here to do.

helge92103• 15 days ago

C1 can be achieved (I did it on 360 hours). C2 is academic level of language proficiency -- you have to either deliberately study for the difficult exam or get an university degree in German. Most of the Germans won't be able to pass a C2 test.

When a company sets C2 as a requirement, it can be interpreted as "must have a degree from German University".

SepiaSapient3• 15 days ago

As a inverse example: a (German) family member has lived fully immersed for 20+ years in my Spanish speaking country.

I doubt he could pass a C2 level test, there's simply a hard limit in language learning for most people without academic instruction. It's also pointless, he's had a long career in a professional field where clear communication is mission critical. Furthermore even if another foreigner with a shiny Spanish C2 certificate appeared they would fare worse, because they wouldn't know the local social minutia.

Aside from jobs in the Literature department or something, a C2 requirement is a "foreigners need not apply" sign.

sva_2• 15 days ago

First, things are bad

As a German, it sounds like you integrated well.

inigyou5• 15 days ago

What's that supposed to mean?

DStiego7• 15 days ago

This is one of the most accurate descriptions I’ve seen here. Germany is a country with immense potential. All one can say is “what a shame”.

Schlagbohrer5• 15 days ago

It has been my experience that many jobs which say "Must have C1 German" or something like that just mean "You need to be able to speak with us in German at work" and if you can speak at B2 level, that's perfectly fine. I had B1 level German and got job offers from places with such requirements because I can speak pretty well with my German colleagues who dont know any english, and I can use a mix when speaking about complicated things with my other colleagues.

Tade04• 15 days ago

As an outsider, but hailing from Germany's eastern neighbor and one of the largest sources of immigrants:

Overall sentiment is that the juice ain't worth the squeeze any more.

Back when my country became a full member of Schengen(2008) the ratio of GDP per capita between Germany and us was around 3.3x - salaries were roughly proportionally higher, so just about any job was worth moving there and potentially going through the hoops required to establish a permanent residence.

Earlier, especially throughout the 90s that ratio didn't go below 5, so a sizeable number of people attempted to move to Germany by any means possible.

Currently it hovers at around 2.1x and most of the discrepancy in salaries is focused on the trades.

A specialist from Poland typically doesn't have access to higher tier salaries, so they don't really enjoy a different quality of life than at home, so they have no reason to move.

izacus2• 15 days ago

Will this overall sentiment actually be confirmed with migration numbers if we check them?

SepiaSapient3• 15 days ago

Seems like it's true [0], the net migration has fallen since the year 2000. I imagine that the people commute from Poland to DE is also a factor.

[0] https://stat.gov.pl/en/topics/population/internationa-migrat...

Tade04• 15 days ago

Who is "we"?

Net migration of Polish citizens to Germany has been consistently negative for the past year:

https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Popula...

fransje263• 15 days ago

Yes.

sinuhe693• 15 days ago

When people came to the country to work then retire somewhere else, isn’t it not a net benefit for Germany? Less burden on the social net, healthcare system etc.

So what the Germans did is right, not wrong!

froh11• 15 days ago

errr, no? when you work here for long enough you accrue pension benefits which are paid out wherever you live.

if you retire abroad you spend the pension abroad. that's a net loss for the nation.

SepiaSapient3• 15 days ago

Wouldn't the lack of medical expenditure win out against the loss of consumption from a pension?

ahf8Aithaex7Nai3• 15 days ago

I am the son of a (Cuban) immigrant and a German woman. Once, the police asked me if I spoke German, probably because my hair is dark and my eyes are brown. Germany has a bias against “southerners”—the darker your skin, the worse it is. If your skin is light and your eyes are light-colored, you won’t even be perceived as an immigrant as long as you keep your mouth shut. But if you look southern or Asian, you’ll always be a “Kanake” or “Fitschi,” even if in every other respect you’re more German than most Germans.

Racism here isn’t so severe that it leaves you with bruises, but you notice it in the little things. For example, this year I was looking for a new apartment with my partner, and when I first made contact, I used her German last name instead of my foreign one—just to be on the safe side. Whenever I do have to deal with the police—for example, because of a traffic accident or something similar—it seems like who gets blamed depends on skin color. If some guy named Hans Müller cuts me off, the police are still on his side. If I cut off someone named Achmed, strangely enough, they’re on my side. The last startup I worked for as a developer really played up its left-liberal, progressive image. Even so, the bosses were blond and blue-eyed, and the janitors were Black Africans. I could fill an entire book with impressions like these.

All the bureaucratic hurdles mentioned in the article are probably intentional. The aim is to make it difficult for foreigners to come here and stay, because these people are not wanted here. In recent years, even politicians deep within the left-liberal spectrum have touted the fact that the so-called migration problem has been brought under control. In other words, they have adopted the right-wing premise that migration itself is a problem, rather than the way migrants are treated and integrated.

The tragedy is that we’re running out of people of working age. We’re having too few children and are turning into an aging society. Over the next twenty years, this will hit us like a bus driving toward a cliff, while none of the passengers see the impending disaster. Immigration could be our salvation, but we just don’t want brown people.

At the same time, German society is tearing itself apart through policies that lack solidarity. Life is meant to be made as difficult and harsh as possible for people with average incomes. The last remnants of the welfare state are being gradually dismantled over successive legislative terms. Everything is being ruined by austerity measures. There is no longer any awareness that collective investments in education and public infrastructure are, in fact, investments that will yield a real return later on—for example, in the form of well-educated people, transportation networks that allow goods to be transported smoothly, or nationwide internet access when you need it. Instead, everything must be milked dry by the private sector, or it’s simply left to rot (or both).

Another comment here mentions that sclerotic forces are at work in Germany. I think that’s an apt description. It frustrates me immensely that society can’t pull itself together to take bold steps toward shaping a positive future. Instead, we have to watch as the country slowly withers away, while one idiot after another takes the reins of government to orchestrate the next round of bloodletting.

It's gotten to the point where I've now lost faith in democracy. Things aren't getting better—they're just getting worse and worse. And all I can do is try to position myself in my personal life in such a way that I can hopefully protect myself and a few people around me from the worst damage caused by this decline.

bell-cot2• 15 days ago

It's gotten to the point where I've now lost faith in democracy. Things aren't getting better...

"it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time" - unknown, often attributed to Churchill

Rah-rah democracy advocates, and patriots of countries which imagine themselves democratic, often attribute all sort of mythical virtues to democracy.

But the reality is no more than "statistically less bad than the alternatives".

These days, the by-far worst problem for most supposed democracies is the excessive financialization of wealth. A century ago, the personal fortunes of most better-off people were tied to the overall fortunes of the country, the province, the city, and the neighborhood in which they lived - giving them huge incentives to care about those collective fortunes. Vs. now, the prevailing attitude seems far closer to "when this place goes to shit, I'll just pack up and leave".

ahf8Aithaex7Nai3• 15 days ago

It’s a good recipe for consensus. I find it easier to reluctantly submit to the will of the majority than I would to the will of a minority. There are certainly a few opponents of democracy who feel exactly the opposite, but most people probably feel the same way I do. That is precisely where the stabilizing effect of democracy lies: it makes people compliant. But it is a misconception that democratic decisions are intrinsically better than others in terms of substance. A majority can pass nonsense just as easily as a minority can make wise decisions. What’s important in a democracy is that people truly believe that the will of the majority prevails—or, even more importantly, the common good. If they lose that belief, a democratic society slowly dies.

vladms2• 15 days ago

I think that the financialization of wealth is a problem of education not of the political system. People just do not understand how that is a problem and how it affects them.

For me the best thing in a democracy is the fact that is supposed to have some dynamics. I am more afraid of a fixed set of people taking continuously worse and worse decisions. Many dictatorships started with the dictators managing fine the country, and people being fine to give them more and more power. Then, in something like 10 or 20 years things go to shit, but there is no "mechanism" to replace them.

svara2• 15 days ago

You are (as am I) in the 30% of Germans (40% in major cities) with a Migrationshintergrund.

At that point, it barely makes sense to call that a minority, it's just normalcy. If you find yourself in a pocket of unusual backwardness where it feels otherwise, you should probably leave.

I pass as German based on looks, but my name is weird and my wife doesn't look or sound German at all. I don't think her or I have ever noticed any adverse consequences from that.

If your German is good, you can just act and feel like you belong here and no one will challenge that.

The people saying they're having trouble getting by with just English though are weird to me. What did they expect? Different countries are different, that's sort of the point.

I do actually agree that Germany isn't the best country when you're looking for economic opportunity, but that isn't really what people are optimizing for here. You might disagree with this, but it's mostly not directed against immigrants.

Regarding your political points: Ironically, they sound very German to me. Yours is a standard left of center critique in German politics. The countries that have a long history of being targets for immigration largely don't work that way, probably because extensive social safety nets are bad for the acceptance of recent immigrants by locals.

radiator2• 15 days ago

I couldn't help but notice that your post also contains bias against German people.

radiator2• 14 days ago

Of course, being a German is not relevant, nor does it preclude you from displaying anti-german bias.

jdappletini• 15 days ago

This used to the case with the USA as well but it took them the last 40-50 years to reform. Maybe there's hope for Germany as well.

hunterpayne8• 15 days ago

Wow, what a take...that says a lot about you and nothing at all about the US. I would guess that you are actually your own worst enemy.

wojciii3• 15 days ago

This reminds me that I got fired from a German company (operating in DK) because I asked too many questions and would not stop complaining about the software architecture which was terrible.

The company culture was clashing with the Danish culture that I was used to and also I didn't give a fuck.

mettamage• 15 days ago

Is Danish culture more flat in its organization?

fallingbananna9• 15 days ago

With how much cultural weight law of Jante has in Denmark, I would hope so.

wojciii3• 15 days ago

It depends on the company.

Small companies are usually flat, but my experience is that larger companies turn into departments/teams until someone realizes that more leadership on paper doesn't add any value.

markbravo03122• 5 days ago

if it makes you feel better, this is also my experience as an se in germany, (althought i didn't get fired). I am greeted with complete annoyance and sometimes even perpexlity when pointing out rather obvious flaws in software systems. Almost as if the mentality of "this is how we have always done it" has implanted itself even in here. However I have had the rare ocurrence where these did lead to solutions.

froh11• 15 days ago

guys, join a Verein. some Verein. any Verein. that's where Germans make friends when we're new in town.

lifestyleguru4• 15 days ago

They joined verein but didn't notice it's two years contract with auto renewal, cancellation three months in advance by letter. Left the country after receiving Mahnbescheid. Have fun in this asshole-verein.

froh11• 15 days ago

2y? sounds like some fitness sth scam. not the real thing. no clubs, where people share their hobby.

akudha2• 15 days ago

All this discussion makes me wonder - is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy? Assuming the immigrant makes every effort to integrate (learning the language, respecting local people/customs etc).

It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general - or maybe it is just the impression I get from the media? I don't know for sure.

joe_mamba4• 15 days ago

is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy?

Not really anymore. All the good ponds have all been fished out by now.

Housing is in short supply in every livable city in the western world and the job market is tight right now, so if you move there now, you're one, increasing labor competition for the locals, and two, rising housing prices for the locals. THe only locals happy with this arrangement are the corporation hiring you and the landlord taking your money.

The world has min-maxed itself into oblivion that it's already reached saturation point. We're way passed the balance point, everything is fucked, there's no magic place on the planet where things are nice for everyone.

throw-the-towel14• 15 days ago

This is spot on. Even if the opportunity is still better in the West than elsewhere, the trend is to the worse. It feels much more rewarding to have a less tasty slice of a growing pie, than a tastier slice that's shrinking. (And the others behave with less toxicity, to boot.)

smithoc2• 15 days ago

It's too bad that no immigrants work in construction to build more housing. If we could import lower cost laborers to build houses, that would greatly improve the housing affordability problem, but sadly, every time I go past a construction site, all I see are white guys whose great-great-great grandparents came over on the Mayflower.

throw-the-towel14• 15 days ago

That really depends on what country are they coming from, and how established they are in life. As an extreme example, someone from Sudan would benefit by moving out, if only by being in a stable place that's not being ravaged by civil war.

malshe2• 15 days ago

I know the US gets a lot of flak due to the current administration's policies and actions. Despite that it is still the best country for immigrants with the caveat 'Assuming the immigrant makes every effort to integrate (learning the language, respecting local people/customs etc)'

throw-the-towel14• 15 days ago

More generally, I'd say the Americas are a step above Europe when it comes to ease of integration. In South America, people often assumed I'm immigrating, and made it clear I was welcome. In Europe, where I actually tried to immigrate, I'm treated as just a long-staying tourist. (Not blaming anyone here, they can run their countries however I want, but it's just silly to expect that people who have choice would come to Europe.)

libertine• 15 days ago

There's been a lot of pressure to break the EU for quite some time, and now even the US is also aiming for this.

It's a lot of misinformation and funding from too many countries, for a long time.

What's impressive is how much this tension had actually been holding on, which goes to show that education actually plays an important role when dealing with misinformation.

Sadly it was successful in the UK.

sixothree• 15 days ago

We aren't really talking about this loneliness epidemic that is not contained to any one particular country. I can imagine how difficult it is to move to a new place now, no matter where it is, and especially in the future if the trend continues.

graemep12• 15 days ago

Lots of people want to migrate from one country to another, so they clearly think their own lives would be improved (bar a few doing it altruistically).

As for including the locals lives, how? You might be bringing skills they need, or money. Do you mean purely socially? That is very subjective.

I think the media exaggerate the hostility. IMO most of the hostility here in the UK is aimed at 1) illegal immigrants and asylum seekers and 2) Muslims. There is also rising hostility to Jews, but usually from an entirely different group to those hostile to Muslims.

haritha-j• 15 days ago

Because it’s quite difficult to tell whether someone is in the UK illegally just by looking at them, I imagine some of that hostility isn’t very well contained.

akudha2• 15 days ago

Do you mean purely socially? That is very subjective

True. I remember walking the streets of NYC with a friend. We played a game, if we hear anyone talking, we'd try and identify the language. In less than 20 minutes, I think we counted like 10, and they were only the ones we were sure of. That level of diversity is possible only with immigration.

Some people might be good with diversity. Some people might hate it. Immigration is a complex, nuanced topic. Personally, I am in the camp of letting people move around freely (as long as they are not doing crime and are being respectful to locals). This is 2026, we can fly from one corner of the world to another in 24 hours. We are more dependent on each other than ever - so why not let people move freely too?

But I also realize some people might not want immigrants, there are people who don't even want tourists (and tourist money)

rdbl272• 15 days ago

Yes. The United States.

Despite the whirlwind of media to the contrary, the US is very welcoming to foreigners who follow the laws (that is, don't enter illegally) and make an effort to integrate by learning the language and customs.

Much more than any other country on Earth.

theLiminator• 15 days ago

Much more than any other country on Earth.

What about Canada?

suddenlybananas7• 15 days ago

Have you watched the news in the past couple of years?

smithoc2• 15 days ago

is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy?

The United States.

It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general - or maybe it is just the impression I get from the media?

The world is turning hostile to immigration because the media (and social media sites) highlight and repeat the bad anecdotes, while barely mentioning the actual data showing positive outcomes.

suburban_strike2• 15 days ago

What data suggests there is a positive outcome for the first world in integrating with the third world? Because my data suggests we're enthusiastically recreating the conditions that led to the Yugoslav civil wars.

And even you know it; I saw your other comment before you deleted it. You are well aware that there is a tipping point, and expressed disappointment that natives are resistant to the path that leads to it. It's like you want there to be ethnic violence.

noosphr• 15 days ago

People are turning on immigrants because the pie has been shrinking for decades.

eunos5• 15 days ago

Yea but the visa law is horrendous tho. 60 days hard deadline if unemployed, CBP invalidating H1B for reasons, can't return if you got laid off out of country, and whatever Trump did recently that made people worry to fly outside the country. Not to mention the brutal green card line.

NostraDavid• 15 days ago

It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general

Not the concept itself, but the insane numbers. Even South Africa is having "anti-migrant" protests (by the _black_ population; important detail, due to history).

Having 1-2% of your population come in as migrants* is pretty nuts; no negative migration afterwards; number only goes up. I cannot see how this is going to end well in the long run.

*: This is for the Netherlands, for the last 5 years since 2024 (that's the latest numbers I got from our Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS)). That is _just_ economic migration. It's insane. I made some visualizations: https://tbataafschebroederschap.nl/projects/autochtoonse-ned...

bulbar10• 15 days ago

It's the impression you get from media.

Get born outside the western world and migrate to Europe as a skilled worker and your live increases significantly as well as that it your family. Same goes for the society you live in.

enevid009• 15 days ago

This.

vladms2• 15 days ago

For better their lives as well as the locals' life I think it is most of them. For feeling rewarded or fulfilled for doing that, I think depends on both the person and the country, but probably quite rare.

I tried two countries so far (>5 year in both) and there were pluses and minuses in each. Which are different to the pluses and minuses in my home country.

I think that one will (generally) evolve and adopt some habits of the country you immigrated too, while giving up some habits you had before. The result? You might be a more complete person (because you become aware of the habits, and can choose to some extent) but on the other hand you will not belong anywhere any-more (you will not adopt some stupid habits of the new country, but you did gave up some stupid habits that you had).

throwaway274487• 15 days ago

Immigration does generally improve the economy, but it doesn't happen overnight, and this is an incredibly easy anxiety to exploit for short-term political gain.

anothereng3• 15 days ago

pretty much anywhere in America (the continent) you're welcome to migrate to. We don't care as long as you respect the locals and the local culture

mangodrunk• 15 days ago

Why don’t people migrate to developing countries instead to help them directly. This form of migration makes it appear that Western countries are better.

There is a big problem with mass migration and people entering a country with antithetical values and beliefs.

noisecancel• 15 days ago

voidhorse• 15 days ago

It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general - or maybe it is just the impression I get from the media? I don't know for sure.

I view it as growing pains. We inhabit a highly interdependent and interconnected world now, the economy is extremely global. Nation states as the primary governance model simply don't make sense anymore, and the world needs to adjust and find a new political organizing principle. The modern concept of nation state is itself a historical concept, it really arose approx. 18th cen. has worked ok for a while and now we need some new governance concept that is a better fit for our highly interconnected and global world.

What we are seeing now are reactions against what in my view is the inevitable decline of nation based organization and the formation of something else. The "old system" is acting out in an attempt to save itself, in a refusal to evolve. People don't like change. The writing is on the wall though. The degree to which every nation is now completely entangled with every other makes nations themselves as an operational concept inefficient and untenable.

malshe2• 15 days ago

Here is my anecdote. I was in Germany recently and met with a South American woman. We briefly talked about our immigrant experiences. She is now a German citizen married to a German man. However, she said she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one. By contrast, when I became an American citizen, my American friends (white and hispanic) insisted that they attend the naturalization ceremony.

joe_mamba4• 15 days ago

As someone who lived in the US briefly, I found Americans are just a lot more hospitable to foreigners, than Germans and most other Europeans in general.

Probably because there's no such thing as an US-American ethnicity, but there definitely is at least one or more unique and very distinct ethnicities and cultures for every European country, and simply getting the passport as a foreign adult, does not also buy you into those clubs, you just got a piece of paper, not the culture and belonging the locals with ancestry there have.

It's not something you can learn as an adult living in a big international city with lots of expats and international companies, it's something you get from growing up there surrounded by that culture and ethnic ingroup created by your ancestors.

The equivalent for americans would probably be those whose ancestors were there before the civil war but that's a smaller % of the population today vs the more recent immigrants compared to Europe. Sure, there's as much immigration to Europe as well, per-capita as in the US, but a lot of it is undesired and the native Europeans have various cultural and bureaucratic glass ceilings to keep working class immigrants in the least desirable jobs, while they kept the more desirable governmental, academic and managerial jobs.

Not knocking them for it, they're free to run their societies the way they see fit, but then they also shouldn't be surprised when, unlike in the US, the second or third generation migrants growing up in the ghettos who are full citizens now, decide to blow themselves up, shoot up a cafe or drive a truck through a crowd, because of how unaccepted and held down they feel by the native European society.

The issue I see seems to be on how US and EU treat integration of migrants. In the US you ge equal opportunities and freedom to do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone, while in the EU you get endless strict rules and welfare which not only don't compensate the glass ceilings and isolation, it also pisses off the locals to see their high taxes going to foreigners who don't integrate. The other reason might be that migration to the US is more from Canada and latin america which is culturally similar to the US, while EU migration is mostly from africa and middle east which are very different culturally.

bellowsgulch3• 15 days ago

The whole immigrants who don't integrate seems to be a constant issue in every developed country across the globe, with the exception of maybe Japan, who is xenophobic enough that you wouldn't want to try to become Japanese anyway.

Canada, England, France, and the US, to name a few, seem to have done it wrong considering how immigration is a constant complaint and weaponized topic in their politics, but likewise Japan has too, just on the other end of the spectrum.

I'm unsure who does it well.

eldaisfish6• 15 days ago

sad to see this downvoted because it is very much true. European society loves to pretend that they are these progressive, enlightened people. In reality, what they are is just better at hiding their racism and xenophobia.

Your last point is largely wrong. The primary difference between immigrants to the US and to Europe is in qualifications. The majority of US immigrants are skilled. The majority of immigrants to Europe are not skilled. It is then no surprise that immigrants to the US tend to integrate better than immigrants to Europe.

tough• 15 days ago

The oldest american "citizens" are merely 250yo. Like the country.

My point being, everyone in America is more or less an "immigrant" if you go back enough on their family tree, but the Native Americans.

panick21_4• 15 days ago

Germany is a much newer country.

IncreasePosts3• 15 days ago

In that case, the oldest German citizens are 155 years old. Like the country.

And by that logic even many native Americans are immigrants. The Apache and Sioux people were living up in canada by the Great lakes near the time Spaniards were on the continent and then started migrating south westward. Not to even mention all of the natives who were forcibly moved out of their original places or fled due to war/famine/etc

bossyTeacher2• 15 days ago

Relative to South America, Germany is going to feel very unfriendly. I think it's a matter of perspective. Also, countries that are very homogeneous (ie everyone looks the same) are probably going to have some ethnic ideas built in their idea of citizenship so your citizenship will be question if you don't look like them or behave like them. South America and Germany are very different regions culturally sitting at opposite ends of most cultural traits so her experience isn't surprising.

arka2147483647• 15 days ago

There is deep history here. For most of the past centuries, most Europe was from where you immigrated FROM, not where you immigrated TO.

There just is not the kind of immigration culture as in America. Some people don’t even have a notion why anyone would want to come to Europe.

Barrin92• 15 days ago

because nobody made her feel like one

I'm German. Very rarely is the issue that people will in principle treat her as foreign, there's sometimes still the stereotype that you "can never be German" but in most places in the country that's not my experience.

However what is important is that you need to elbow your way in. There's a saying "nur sprechenden Menschen kann geholfen werden*. (only people who speak up can be helped). If you think someone's gonna carry you in that's not gonna happen. That's the biggest mistake I see immigrants make. It's a private and personal culture but people respect someone from the outside who shows initiative, and nobody is easily offended by someone being assertive, that's seen as a good thing.

It's not the kind of place where you can just wait and people will read what you want off your face. Doesn't even work for Germans, if you feel left out, you'll have to stand up and say you want to be in.

backwardsponcho2• 15 days ago

You hit the nail in the head.

Those who say stuff like "nobody makes me feel integrated" would also very much struggle to befriend people in their own country if they got dropped anywhere else other than their home cities away from friends and family.

Making new friends after school is hard, no matter where in the world.

chis• 15 days ago

It is an interesting divide. "German" is both an ethnicity and a citizenship, and it's possible to become one but not the other. "American" on the other hand is purely a citizenship, and so it is possible to become an American after immigrating.

dghlsakjg5• 15 days ago

If German is an ethnicity, I don't see why the US, which is older than the German Confederation (let alone the subsequent countries that have existed since then on that same land) has a distinct culture and set of shared values, cannot be.

Exoristos• 15 days ago

"American" on the other hand is purely a citizenship ...

This may be how you perceive or feel about it, and of course you're not alone, but many other Americans feel differently. Those of us with Colonial ancestors maintained much the same culture and mores for generations; it's evident in the manners and the literature; it's something distinct that we certainly feel as close to an ethnicity. Granted, we comprise multiple European heritages, but those heritages did not define any of us after a few generations. The concept I am trying to outline her is also a very old one: e.g., first Speaker of the House Frederick Muhlenberg, referring to some of his own constituents, said, "The faster the Germans become Americans, the better it will be."

aleph_minus_one26• 15 days ago

she said she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one

As a native German, I actually have difficulties with concepts like "identifying as [nationality]", "feeling like [nationality]" or "naturalization". I really would say these are concepts that US-Americans (or people who were "shaped" by US mentality) seem to deeply care about, but Germans very typically don't.

So, my opinion/advice is: she should simply abandon such concepts ("identifying as [nationality]", "feeling like [nationality]", "naturalization") that, as a native German, are simply far away from the mentality that I observe in daily life.

Don't forget that a unified Germany was a concept that only involved in the 19th century, so "Germany" is more of a somewhat "synthetic" unification of various historical, and very different, federal states where the unifying element is rather what is now considered to be a shared language, ethicity, culture and history.

With this in mind, the advice should be obvious:

This woman should concentrate on getting really good in German, and learn about the more than 1000 years of (what is now German) culture and history, and additionally learn about the laws and rules to survive daily life. Otherwise, she should live her life.

What she should not do, is caring about what "identifying as" or "feeling like a" German means - she should put this out of her mind, since modern Germany is a very synthetic unification of what were historically very different sovereign nations that share what is now considered to be a common language, ethicity, culture and history.

eldaisfish6• 15 days ago

would you say that a swiss german and someone from Hamburg have more in common than someone from Bavaria and someone from Helsinki?

BeetleB6• 15 days ago

I can only speculate, but usually when such phrases come up, it's about things like not being part of the in-group - people they know throwing parties and not inviting them, etc.

p00dles• 15 days ago

I don’t think that she means it as literally as you are interpreting her. It’s a _feeling_ of not belonging to or probably feeling welcomed to join the culture that surrounds her daily life, I don’t think she cares whether she belongs to the history-based definition that you outlined of modern “synthetic” unified Germany.

This experience is usually invisible to the people who are part of the in-group, in this case Germans, but if someone lives in a foreign country for an extended period of time and tries to make it their home, I think they understand what that woman was saying.

warumdarum3• 15 days ago

She should also not listen to fringe left extremism wanting to disolve the nation state.

e5ur6ud6u• 15 days ago

ADP

torginus3• 15 days ago

I think what she meant that even if you live in Germany/work with German colleagues, basically you will enternally made to be felt that you are not one of them by all but the most liberally minded Germans (and even those are rare even in the big international cities). So your friend group (if you decide to have one, rather than concentrate on family), will consist of other expats/immigrants.

Btw most Europeans are like this - but some are more polite about this than others.

Americans are the incredibly weird outlier (in a good way!). If you speak decent enough English, then basically if you get along, they forget about where you come from. At least it felt like it - Americans basically don't make headspace for this kind of stuff.

snovymgodym3• 14 days ago

since modern Germany is a very synthetic unification of what were historically very different sovereign nations

This is fairly revisionist. Germany is no more synthetic than most other modern European countries in that regard. The lands of modern Germany were more culturally and linguistically unified than say, France or Spain (which had more diverse minority languages that were suppressed, e.g. Catalan, Basque, Occitan, Breton).

Virtually everything that is now Germany (and lots that isn't) was part of the same polity, the Holy Roman Empire, for roughly 1000 years before being dissolved by Napoleon in 1806. Yes, it was highly decentralized even for the time, but the fact that there was a common language in the core lands was not lost on people at the time, and a gradual informal standardization of the written language was already taking place during this time.

So Germany's unification in 1871 was essentially re-unifying lands that had been part of the same state for centuries before, only this time they did it under the justification of the then-fashionable concept of the nation state and with a centralized power in control of the whole thing.

Unfortunately for everyone, that centralized power was Prussia.

vlian20882• 15 days ago

she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one

well, because she isn't one. had she moved to China, she wouldn't magically become Chinese.

cmrdporcupine2• 15 days ago

As much as Europeans might find the North American notion of identity and citizenship odd and ahistorical and anachronistic, the reverse is also true. The idea of "nationhood" tied to ethnicity isn't even that old on the continent. Just dates to the modern era. People in feudal Europe were not calling themselves Germans. They could barely think beyond their village or fiefdom or whatever.

I don't even have to go far back in the history of Germany and the defunct states that preceded it to find a patchwork of languages and cultures all of which would only be colloquially called "German" but many of which would be in fact mutually unintelligible from a linguistic POV and often quite apart culturally too.

I've also always found it more than a bit absurd that I as a second generation son of a German immigrant to Canada could -- because of blood descent -- claim a German passport and citizenship despite never having lived there.

Then again with the way North America is going, if I wasn't tied down here, I'd be tempted to do that and spend my retirement there, instead.

lazyant• 15 days ago

My prejudice is that there are only a few countries in the world (US, Canada, Australia, Mexico, possibly others I don't have experience with) where coming as an immigrant they take you in and you can be considered from that country.

kdheiwns• 15 days ago

As an American, to me it's always felt like non-white Americans are never really accepted as "full" Americans by people as a whole. If a German guy moves to America and gets citizenship, he might be known as that German American guy, sure. But if he has kids, they'll just be called American. Over 100 years ago, some Chinese people moved to America. Those people had kids. Those kids had kids. Those kids had kids. Some of those kids also had kids. But what are those 5th or 6th generation Americans called? Asian Americans or even Chinese Americans, even if they've never been outside of the US and nobody in their family several generations up the line has either. And people who were forcefully brought to America 300 years ago still have their descendants being called "African American" instead of simply "American."

I say this as someone who myself emigrated from America. Nobody calls me "that American guy." I'm just "that guy".

mrtksn• 15 days ago

I think the test for being accepted is when you screw up. For example, if you parked wrongly do you become “that foreigner/ethnic guy” or do you remain “one of our idiots”.

nikanj2• 15 days ago

How is your English compared to her German?

gtirloni• 15 days ago

That is, if they can even get a work visa through the proper channels while following all requirements.

I had read Kafka's The Castle before dealing with the German immigration office but that experience gave me a new perspective.

lifestyleguru4• 15 days ago

They got millennials from post-Communist countries after all transition periods for new EU members have passed sometime around 2011. Were already lucky because they didn't open the market straight away in 2004 like Ireland, UK, and Sweden. Germans were overconfident because their largest demographic boom was in their 40s back then.

Treated that immigration wave like shit. They left.

Germans worked really hard for every single nasty thing which is about to happen to them.

ikut3hva3• 15 days ago

Hi everyone

I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment.

We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep reading before judging). We have lived here for more than six years, and you know what? I still haven’t obtained either permanent residence or German citizenship simply because I don’t have a B1 certificate. So first things first: regardless of how much you contribute to the country, German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here.

I was honestly devastated when the officer told me that I was not eligible for permanent residence. That was also the moment when I started to feel that maybe I don’t actually need permanent residence in this country after all.

Story 2: In an international working environment, German may not matter much at the IC level. But I’ve seen countless situations where Germans exchange a glance with each other, and suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Over time, I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them.

One bright thing is that maybe we’re still lucky. We bought our first home without fully understanding the laws, the government system, or the tax rules. We simply worked hard and played the game in a way that we believed would be sustainable in the long run. Whatever happens, we know there are still many other places we could go.

Our children speak German natively, but they are also willing to go the extra mile to speak our mother tongue at home.

If you ask me for one piece of advice for immigrants and emigrants in Germany, I’d say: life is short—play naked!

svara2• 15 days ago

Genuinely happy to hear you're successful here! But, why would you expect there to be no drawback to not knowing the local language when moving to a foreign country?

ikut3hva3• 15 days ago

Definitely, I had a good awareness of the language barrier from the day I arrived.

To be fair, I have continued learning German—not because I want to pass the B1 examination and obtain permanent residence, but because I feel my children need to be protected and guided, and I want to teach them the same things they learn at school. Every moment I spend learning the language is a moment I invest out of love, so that I can be a better and more supportive parent.

lispisok• 15 days ago

So your complaint is you wanted permanent residence in Germany but did not want to learn to speak German?

brewdad• 15 days ago

Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency. Assuming your immigration status is regular and you are a contributing member of society.

Citizenship? Absolutely, you must speak the language. Residency? Not nearly as common.

zerr5• 15 days ago

Permanent residency is a business deal between two entities: an individual and a state. It has nothing to do with linguistics. There are many Germans permanently living in Vietnam, Thailand and other Southeast Asian countries, who never bothered to even learn how to say Hello, not to mention any certificate or exam...

pimeys2• 15 days ago

Hey. I'm with you there. My German also kind of sucks, but I've had a very successful 15 years in Berlin. The best part is how easy it is to pick jobs from the neighboring countries, like France. You pay taxes here, you commute maybe once a month to Paris and enjoy the prices and quietness of Berlin. We are lucky with my partner, and bought finally our own apartment.

My partner, an American, is fluent with the language so it helps. My plan is to make a good amount of savings, take a year or so of sabbatical and finally learn the language. Until that, we go with bar Deutsch.

ikut3hva3• 15 days ago

Thank you! I skimmed through your text, and for a moment I thought we were working at the same company with its HQ in Paris, haha.

Honestly, you brought up a valuable point that I didn’t cover in my original comment. Living in Germany has been one of the best ways to strengthen our relationship, especially when one of us couldn’t speak German and the other stepped in to help. Some people may see this as a fragile vulnerabilitye, but I see it as part of our growth.

kombine• 15 days ago

My rule is that if you want to settle in the country, you ought to learn the local language and it doesn't really matter how much money you make in my opinion. I got to B2 and passed the test, but ultimately left Germany years ago. I don't intend to go back but I also don't regret learning the language.

sigmoid102• 15 days ago

I've lived in foreign places for less than 6 months and still bothered to pick up enough language to at least converse on a basic A1 level. Especially in certain regions where people don't speak english well this is almost a requirement for any daily life that is not work related. I can't imagine living somewhere for six whole years without picking up the language at all. Maybe if you actually hate the place and are sure you will leave again after that stint, but the above commenter doesn't seem to fall into this category either.

itake3• 15 days ago

What do you say to people that literally can’t?

I still can’t pronounce about a third of the Vietnamese sounds. I’ve had three private in person tutors, no luck.

Should I just like pack up my bags and leave?

NorthSouthNorth2• 15 days ago

You can get B1 with a bit of spare time. With kids, I understand it's a different situation; however, it took me about 2 years to get there, learning in my spare spare time (which after a certain point was just listening to audio books before bed). The compounding effect works.

BUUUUT, even with B2, it's just not enough for avoiding "the look", as you put it. I think you need flawless C1 or something, idk. Don't care anymore lol.

merb2• 15 days ago

Most b2 holders can’t even speak German. B1 is not that much better nowadays. You get tons of applications for a job where people struggle with the basics with these and as a small company with only DACH customers it’s most often not worth it

imtringued5• 14 days ago

There is a massive difference between complaining about someone being bad at a language and treating the act of telling someone to learn the language as some great offense.

One of those is an honest attempt, the other one is pure hostility.

For me it doesn't really matter how well you speak the language.

yorwba• 15 days ago

FWIW, for Blue Card holders, after 27 months the language requirement drops to A1 and even if you don't have a Blue Card after five years you could also get an EU permanent residence without language requirement: https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/visa-residence/living-...

Though I would recommend setting yourself a target of some small (≈10) number of new words to learn every day and practice them during your commute or so. B1 is achievable in under a year with consistent practice. The official word list has 2400 entries: https://www.goethe.de/pro/relaunch/prf/de/Goethe-Zertifikat_...

0zer0• 15 days ago

This. With this much income you should qualify for a Blue Card. The 27 months start when you are eligible, not when you are actually holding the Blue Card. A friend of mine (w/ Blue Card) got permanent citizenship in Germany after the 3 years and was not asked/tested for any language skills. As long as you speak a little German to follow the process it is pretty easy.

quite-sfwd• 15 days ago

Learning 10 words a day is not a small amount. Unless you count conjugations.

eldaisfish6• 15 days ago

There is yet another angle that people don't like to discuss because it is uncomfortable. Every European nation state is built around ethnicity as the bedrock of society. This makes it nigh on impossible to integrate fully in these countries.

The way this manifests is different in each country, but the fundamental reason is the same. In the german case, take the words of Messut Ozil, the former footballer - when the German team wins, he is German. Lose, and he is the immigrant. He is ethnically Turkish, i.e. not ethnically German.

The same will apply to your kids as well.

I want to be clear, not every German person is a frothing racist, i would argue that the racists are a minority. It is, however, important to note that the reactions of the individual and the reactions of society can be different, sometimes polar opposites.

In sharp contrast to this are the US and Canada, where there is no shared definition of "white" even though the majority of their populations are ethnically European. In that case, "European" spans everything from Irish and Greek, to French and Austrian. Less than a hundred years back, Irish people were not seen as white. Today, that idea is laughable. The fundamental difference between the US and Canada on one side and German or european society on the other is that the old world is built around exclusion, while the new world is built around inclusion.

This is one important reason why skilled immigrants leave europe, and is also why i left.

bcye4• 15 days ago

Every European nation state is built around ethnicity as the bedrock of society.

What do you mean by it being the bedrock of society? I haven't found ethnicity to be an important part about being a citizen here at all.

baranul7• 15 days ago

I want to be clear, not every German person is a frothing racist, i would argue that...

Of course not every German has fallen into the abyss of such insanity, but sorry to inform you (for those that have never been), way too many have. There are also levels to it as well, where various people may not be so open about it, but very much embrace and practice it. This then is reflected in housing, jobs, or even nightclubs.

The way this manifests is different in each country, but the fundamental reason is the same...

While in agreement with this argument, the levels of hostility can be very different, depending on the European country. Views and treatment of other people in regards to color or xenophobia in the Netherlands, Germany, or the Czech Republic can be wildly different.

The US and Canada should not be viewed as better, but how things manifest themselves are different, which can result in different experiences and outcomes. Maybe better or maybe even worse.

OrangeDelonge• 15 days ago

You’re right but I think the US/Canada are just exceptions. Essentially every other nation on earth (not just Europe) is what you describe Europe to be.

carlosjobim5• 15 days ago

Most natively born Europeans are never accepted as fully worthy members of their community either.

pessimizer5• 15 days ago

In sharp contrast to this are the US and Canada, where there is no shared definition of "white" even though the majority of their populations are ethnically European.

I think you've got this turned around. In the US and Canada "white" is all you have. In Germany you have Germans, in France you have French, in the US, you have "white," which usually means "untraceable white mutt, at least one grandparent didn't speak English, don't be surprised if they're a bit Lebanese, Indian or Mexican."

The difference between Europe and the US is that in the US, the only important thing is not to be black. Europe's hostility is more finely tuned because they have more culture and community to protect (more continuity, more history, etc.)

Once that's gone, it's gone. Greece can't get back its Greekness by importing more Greeks, whereas the US (and the other Anglosphere colonies) can get more white by taking in anyone who isn't black. The colonies are places that often started by being filled with British prisoners; i.e. standards were nil. The standard was that you were white, could kill natives, and in the US, catch slaves.

The lack of an overarching culture in the US is probably why slave and ex-slave culture had such an outsized influence. It's uniquely American.

dizhn• 15 days ago

Mesut Özil was himself very German until he retired and saw the potential in cozying up to Erdoğan. Now he's a nationalist.

dgs_sgd2• 15 days ago

I appreciate your perspective, but I was curious what B1 proficiency actually entails and this is what I found [1]:

- understand the main points of clear standard speech on familiar topics such as work, school, or leisure - manage most situations that occur while traveling in German-speaking areas - produce simple, connected text on familiar subjects - describe experiences, events, dreams, hopes, and ambitions, and briefly explain your opinions or plans

That seems like a reasonable standard of native language proficiency to ask of people who want to make the county with said language their permanent home.

[1] https://www.sprachenatelier-berlin.de/en/topic/3736.german-p...

TheOtherHobbes• 15 days ago

B1 is a completely fair minimum standard. It's normal for many countries to expect residents to have basic conversational adequacy.

It's also the kind of requirement that's made explicit on government information about residency. So it shouldn't have been a surprise.

rurp• 15 days ago

It seems weird to me that someone would even want to settle in a foreign country without a good understanding of the language and cultural basics. I've done some traveling in non-English speaking countries and it was a huge hurdle not being completely fluent in the local language. It just seems like common sense to me to dive in all the way if you are moving somewhere long term.

I don't really see what a good salary has to do with it either. When it's hard for me to communicate with a neighbor or coworker I don't care whether they have a high or low salary.

thenoblesunfish2• 15 days ago

Agreed, and (especially if you are a nerd who is good at tests) the description of the levels always seemed to me to imply more ability than what you really need to pass the test. OP, just study for the test and pass it. You can, and you will be proud of yourself and happier in your new home country.

ButlerianJihad3• 15 days ago

Lyft and Uber, currently in my state, are onboarding drivers who are not required to speak any English at all. Their textual communications can occur through app translation, and the driver is not expected to understand anything a rider should say, because the driver should be following their app, not the rider's instructions.

The joke is on them, though, because I happen to speak impeccable Spanish with 40 years' experience, and I've successfully intervened when the app inevitably misdirects the driver.

I also happily greet drivers in Arabic, Hebrew, Hindi, or at least try to understand what country/dictatorship/failed state that they've emigrated/fled from, to be driving in the United States.

djaro4• 15 days ago

Yeah, B1 is not even nearly fluent, on my B1 exam Spanish I had to roleplay with the examinator going to a store to return something after buying the wrong item. This is like, bare minimum of functioning.

I cannot imagine living in a country for over a year and not taking the effort to lesrn the language.

mananaysiempre3• 15 days ago

It is, in a sense. I maybe feel that, if one is unfamilliar with the CEFR levels, the description you gave might make things sound a bit more basic than they are: survival as a resident is more like A2, not B1. The B1 designation is like reading tabloid headlines and writing essays on middle-school-level subjects.

But that’s really a bit nitpicky, and the actual point I wanted to make is as follows: B1 is something like five uninterrupted years[1] of consistent lessons. Somewhat less for closer language pairs like maybe French to Spanish, potentially a lot more if the language is foreign enough that you need to build your vocabulary from zero; and keep in mind that the typical foreign-language class in middle or high school tends to go a lot slower so isn’t a good reference.

Uninterrupted is never going to happen for an immigrant who needs to find their footing for basic survival and, for the first year or two, also juggle the multitude of individually small demands of an unfamilliar environment (do I want a broker to help me rent an apartment? how do I deal with the healthcare system? where can I find a decent plumber? what’s the public transport situation? nobody writes this shit down). As an immigrant, you’re on the hard setting by default regardless of salary, and then you add an extra 2–3 hours per week of language classes and perhaps double that in homework.

None of this is to say it’s unfair to demand B1 if you want people to integrate. It is to say that the, realistically, seven to ten years of effort are in no way a small deal, and if you want people to integrate then you need to make the incidental stuff, i.e. everything else, as straightforward[2] as you can. At the moment, the incidental stuff is about as convoluted as possible more or less everywhere[3] and feels like it’s designed to make you lose at every step, partly because it is. That’s the natural state of affairs (like prison inmates, immigrants don’t have anyone to advocate for them so the system just drifts where it would), but not the one you need if integration is your actual goal.

(Israel is probably the only place to get a pass on planning because they took the extraordinary step of writing fucking manuals, in six foreign languages, for a lot of the implicit knowledge—at least to the extent that a government-endorsed document can be honest about things.)

[1] The estimate of 350–400 class hours that I see in some places feels wildly optimistic to me. That of 1000 hours for C2 feels like downright mockery.

[2] Straightforward to understand, not necessarily to pass.

[3] No specific experience with Germany, for the record.

ManuelKiessling• 15 days ago

If you cannot be bothered with learning our language, and think that being rich somehow makes our country owe you its citizenship — then yeah, maybe Germany isn’t for you.

arianvanp• 15 days ago

Permanent Residency -- not citizenship.

Residency is purely about taxes, health insurance and right to work. You e.g. don't get voting rights in national elections.

EU citizens automatically get permanent residency in any EU country regardless of language.

E.g. I'm a permanent resident in Germany as a Dutchie.

(However I did end up picking up German and speak it now. But never had to do a language test)

littlecranky67• 15 days ago

As a german living in spain, i feel your pain. While I do speak spanish around B1/B2 level, it took a lot of time and effort - probably the biggest effort in learning something after uni. People are often "you should speak the language if you life there" - yes, agreed. BUT: Hell, if you are a professional entrepreneur, you are already not working 40h week but way more. If in your day job you speak english anyway because it is international, you hardly practice it. Especially in the EU we are taught that we can move freely between nation states - but reality of learning a language takes years. I learned english at age 10, so am practicing for over 30 years now and still learning and anybody could spot that I am not a native speaker. Countries that rely on foreign labour and advertise agressively on skilled immigration (such as Germany does) should not have those strict language requirements. Especially since german itself is a very difficult language.

delis-thumbs-7e5• 15 days ago

None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. You can get to A2 level pretty easy (in most indoeuropean languages at least), but jumping to B1 can seriously be a year or more of studying. You have to be able to handle basic daily situations in the given language and understand what is said in a TV or Radio show. With practice you can get there especially if you live in the country and force yourself to speak the language, but easy it is not.

screye• 15 days ago

B1 German is about 1 year of intensive studying from zero. With immersion and part-time commitment, I'd say ~3 years is a comfortable timeline to learn B1 German.

I am basing this off my personal experience of going from A1 -> A2 -> half-way through B1 (I dropped after I decided against studying in Germany, but my classmates continued the course). Given that German companies are known for excellent work-life balance, there should be enough spare time to learn German by the 5 year point.

All that being said, I imagine it's harder to learn a language when you have kids and family responsibilities.

rayiner4• 15 days ago

Story 2: In an international working environment, German may not matter much at the IC level. But I’ve seen countless situations where Germans exchange a glance with each other, and suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Over time, I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them.

I mean, how many CEOs of major German companies are non-German? The country does seem much more insular than the Anglosphere.

oblio3• 15 days ago

I mean, how many CEOs of major German companies are non-German?

A quick headcount says Mercedes, Adidas, Bayer,...

https://www.consultancy.eu/news/1605/one-third-of-executives...

It pays off to do the actual research before passing judgment.

fallingbananna9• 15 days ago

I live in Austria, and from my experience it's the higher management that is almost exclusively native Austrians. But the highest (C-level) and lowest (IC-level) staff is international.

shakow• 15 days ago

Having B1 seems like a really lenient condition to get citizenship. I got B2 after 6 months of Erasmus, and I have B1 in Russian even though I never even stepped in the country.

Have you even tried to learn German, and if so what is so hard that you can't even get B1, although you stayed long enough to have kids speaking natively the language?

jyounker2• 15 days ago

You're always going to be an outsider if you can't speak the language, no matter where you go in the world. B1 is a reasonable level, as it's the bare minimum for doing day-to-day tasks in the local language.

I honestly can't image planning to live in any country for the long term without learning the local language to at least this level.

dudul2• 15 days ago

How do you live 6 years in a country without reaching B1?

backwardsponcho2• 15 days ago

You'd be surprised at the lengths some will go to avoid learning a new language.

I've met people who have lived over 20y in a country while working, having and raising kids there and still can't have a half decent basic conversation in the local language.

There is always an excuse: too much work, too little time, too tired or you name it, but the end result is that they are inconveniencing themselves.

Not saying it is OP's case, just some anecdotal obserevations.

sufficientsoup• 15 days ago

I think some people just get an irrational block about learning particular things. Like maybe you struggle with a music class in school and just identify as being incapable of learning an instrument, for example, even if they're a skilled learner otherwise. Can't speak for OP, obviously.

fallingbananna9• 15 days ago

You don't magically get language skills by living in the country. You still have to put in the time and effort.

The utmost basics, A1, you could learn very quickly and those will get you through basic interactions (buying groceries, greeting neighbors, etc.)

At work, doctors, apartment search etc. you can use English.

For contracts you can use translate, since B1 wouldn't get you far there anyway.

But to get to B1, you would have to make language learning your hobby for at least a year... and that is not for everyone. Especially given that there aren't interesting media to immerse yourself into in German, compared to other languages like Japanese or Korean.

The only thing that I find puzzling is that OP didn't learn it, when they plan to stay in the country and obtain permanent residency. I would understand not learning the language if they planned to move out in 1 year.

newyankee• 15 days ago

Well I am an Indian who lived in US and worked for top companies for 10 years and left back to my home country as I did not want to be beholden to the Green card waiting time or take some unethical pathways (I see a lot of abuse of O1 now). I find coworkers from smaller and friendlier countries sail through and become Americans.

The point is that immigration can never really become a true meritocracy and even I recognised the privileges I had to reach to US in the first place. The country's ethos, ideas are grandfathered into the law alongwith numerous loopholes or sneaky ways. There is never a social compact where I did X , I deserve Y coming true. I suspect globally we are at the tail end of this type of immigration from Global South to Global North as well

BobbyTables2• 15 days ago

What other country looks appealing?

I get the whole “speak the native language” but seems like the appealing countries speak a language most of the world doesn’t care about.

The number of countries with English as the main/official language that are desirable and open to immigrants seems really small.

joaquincabezas• 15 days ago

what’s in the list?

fallingbananna9• 15 days ago

I was under the impression that English speaking countries are by far the most desirable for immigrants.

Most people don't care that the current US, or UK governments are a mess, because grass isn't exactly greener back at home.

And there are quite a few more English speaking countries that have their own issues, but don't get so much negative press online. (Ireland and Canada have housing crisis, but sound fine otherwise. Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand surely have their own issues that I don't know about)

m_dupont• 15 days ago

I lived in Germany for seven years and by the end I was fluent. B1 is a very low bar to pass, I know because I've done it.

Sorry to say, but the rule is fair. If you want to be a permanent resident, put in a little bit of effort to integrate into the country that you would like to call home.

coderenegade• 15 days ago

This. German really isn't that difficult for an English speaker. And if someone really wants to make a home and build a life in a foreign country, why would they expect that they don't need to learn the native language? That seems stunningly entitled to me.

ggm• 15 days ago

An observation from the side, is that this person already speaks 2 languages, and very probably more. They aren't dumb, I do question their logic, but the capacity to speak more than one tongue is in this person, witness their writing in English, and stating they come from an ASEAN background. That means at least one non-english language, and for many ASEAN economies, more than one.

eg Chinese both Manderin and Cantonese, Indonesian and Chinese, some Chinese and Vietnamese, Korean and Chinese, these are combinations I have met at work here in Australia aside from "and english"

I've had lifts from Uber drivers who speak 4 tongues fluently.

try-working• 15 days ago

I am European, working in China for 12 years making multiples of the average salary, speak Chinese above B1 level and am not eligible for permanent residency yet.

First of all, if you want to become a resident somewhere you must learn the language. Not should.

Second, no country owes any foreign citizen residency there.

kshacker• 15 days ago

(sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it ....

sorry to nitpick on this, but the story did not expand on this despite the pronouncement that there is a reason. Maybe it was subtle, but then let it be subtle.

Izikiel43• 15 days ago

German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here.

Well yeah, learning the local language is a requirement for a lot of countries on the path to citizenship.

throwaway203715• 15 days ago

First, €200k gross annually is huge in Germany. You are high income! Do not read that as a (negative) judgement, but a lot of people on HN don't understand how much lower salaries are in central Europe compared to the US.

Your situation makes me think of Japan. Starting about 10 years ago, they introduced a special "fast path" to permanent residence for high income people. I am surprised that it has not triggered more debate in Japanese society. I think the numbers are so small that most people (and politicians) don't really care. The goal was to attract high income people to work and live in Japan... and pay taxes! Germany could consider a similar programme. However, for normies, I am still strongly in favour of language requirements in any nation when applying for permanent residence.

Last:

    > If you ask me for one piece of advice for immigrants and emigrants in Germany, I’d say: life is short—play naked!

I don't understand. What does "play naked" mean?

D_Alex• 15 days ago

It means have fun, be adventurous, bend the rules a little bit.

lotusw0w• 15 days ago

Are you just using LLM to process your text or are you a LLM itself?

woodpanel• 15 days ago

Honestly, that even highly educated people are complaining about a host country attaching bare minimums to handing out its citizenry (I.e. the right to vote, welfare) is all the more reason to attach them in the first place.

musha68k3• 15 days ago

I know life as an immigrant, especially while having kids and professional careers can be tough.

That said, personally I'm thankful for Quebec having been the forcing function to learn French.

With no prior formation to reach "intermédiaire avancé" took me about 20 months of studying on the side with one lesson per week for most of that time; usually before or during work hours (partially was a group setting there).

I'm a German native speaker so I'm probably biased / ignorant about some major language hurdles but to me German must be the easier language to pick up for most as it's way more regular.

I think the trick is to make a deliberate choice / opening up to love language and people, speaking with as many native speakers as possible etc. It also really helped me to almost exclusively switch to consuming French news and most of other media.

I'm not a fan of dubbing in general but for learning, Hollywood movies in French have been mostly great same as with German translations. Maybe watch older movies, they used to put in an unreasonable amount of work into those especially.

Computer games I'm personally still playing mostly in French to this day and I know that German translations are usually done with a lot of heart as well.

Edit: do check out https://www.arte.tv/de/ if you haven't - one of our favourites for both French and German of course; probably one of, if not the best TV worldwide. Always especially palpable after having been on youtube for a while too long; just the opposite of engagement bait, wholesome and good journalism and more.

ideasarecool• 15 days ago

B1 in any language is a low standard. It being a major hurdle seems unlikely.

Etheryte• 15 days ago

I don't have any skin in the game here for Germany specifically, but I would point out that B1 is an incredibly low bar to clear. With concentrated effort, you can reach that level in under a year, I know because I've done it. Given you have kids and are otherwise preoccupied, maybe a few years. At six years in, it's purely a matter of whether you yourself actually want it or not.

Cthulhu_• 15 days ago

It's the same in the Netherlands (needing a minimum language level), I suspect it's 25+ years of right-leaning, anti-migration governments; as a compromise they said "foreigners can stay as long as they integrate into our society", and language is a big factor there. Or that is the claim anyway.

This doesn't apply to higher end jobs though, which are almost always international to begin with.

GlacierFox• 15 days ago

"regardless of how much you contribute to the country, German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here."

What's the issue here? Is it me or is it absurd for someone to permanently move to a country and expect to integrate without knowing how how to speak the language?

mytailorisrich• 15 days ago

In fairness, speaking the language is a reasonable bare minimum to obtain permanent residence and certainly a must citizenship in any countries.

AFAiK, in most European countries obtaining permanent residence requires at least 5 years of continued residence in the country so it is also a bad look in term of effort to integrate if a person still can't speak the language (maybe not perfectly but at least "good enough") after all that time.

caporaltito2• 15 days ago

My mate, learn German and be happy they don't ask for B2 or C1. If I move to China and want the nationality, it's absolutely normal that one expects me to speak Chinese.

As an Ausländer (who reached C1), I am surprised that you are not talking about the other actual and terrible problems the german society is facing: an aging population relying on immigrants to fill in the gaps, taxes everywhere without the advantages of a strong social system, a very expensive health system but with doctors almost prescribing you tea to fight cancer, crippling solitude inherent to the german culture which even spreads to immigrants -more than half of Berlin lives alone-, a housing market held by boomers and huge corporations (literally no houses below 200k€ in the whole country) which leaves you to rent your whole life to shelter your family, a pro-russia, pro-Afd east Germany vastly undevelopped and uneducated compared to the west. And also food, love, conversations. Germany often feels like the bad sides of northern Europe have been mixed with the bad sides of southern Europe.

And then the glass ceiling does not come at B1, but when you start to notice the difference in behaviour the Germans make between C1 and C2. If you want to pursue your whole career in this country, given how strong the german identity is, you will have to know every single subtlties of the language and culture if you are willing to compete for the next step in your career, for instance a management position.

Really, this country has been in a bad shape for at least five years now. Germany lived until now on its bounce after the reunification, the money poured by the Americans after the war and cheap russian gas. Now it feels like the bill other european countries always had to pay in the last decades has been finally handed to Germany.

eunos5• 15 days ago

literally no houses below 200k€ in the whole country

There are some below 100k but it's in Marxloh. In Berlin, there are still some below 250k in the outskirt

watwut3• 15 days ago

without the advantages of a strong social system

Wut? Germany is socialism personified.

fnands• 15 days ago

You can also take a Bildungsurlaub (educational leave, 5 days a year or 10 days every two years) and take a German course. For a two week course with private tutoring it's like 1k, which at your income level is not much. A lot of bureaucracy in Germany becomes a lot easier once you get over the B1 hump.

avadodin• 15 days ago

Germany is only another economic–region–state under the EU.

How dare they require you speak the local savages' hard language after you've already been working for a multinational corporation for six years.

jcarrano• 15 days ago

life is short—play naked!

Such a concise way of saying what I've been thinking for a long time.

eunos5• 15 days ago

I thought if you have a blue card A1 is suffice?

tsss2• 15 days ago

It's a good thing you can't get permanent residency, let alone citizenship! without speaking the local language. There are few countries in the world that hand out citizenship as cheaply as Germany.

NoLinkToMe• 15 days ago

Could you also add your thoughts on whether you think a B1 level is a sensible requirement for permanent residence in any country?

Because that's what the post seems to boil down to, but you haven't opined on it (other than refusing to learn B1, which implies the answer somewhat).

B1 by the way is considered doable for a consistent parttime learner in 9 months, and 1-2 years for someone doing weekend studying. That's an average.

For a studious family with higher educational background making 200k a year (this is significantly above average in Germany), you've got both the IQ and the capital for tutoring to do better than average.

Seems like a sensible, useful, necessary and practical bar to set for permanent residence, to me.

cainxinth• 15 days ago

I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them.

That is true of every country.

guenthert4• 14 days ago

suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting.

Are you sure you're not reading too much into that? I've witnessed plenty of times (in the USA) that agreements of a meeting were later 'forgotten' (no doubt often indeed due to poor memory). To the point that it was best to insist on a written record of a meeting.

guenthert4• 14 days ago

We bought our first home without fully understanding the laws, the government system, or the tax rules.

That's bizarre. In Germany about half the population rents their primary dwelling; many life-long. There's really no rush to buy real estate here.

(not that anybody would fully understand the tax rules)

guenthert4• 14 days ago

[too late to edit] I do realize that it might be more challenging to rent as a foreigner, particularly if you don't speak German well.

juliusceasar• 14 days ago

"So first things first: regardless of how much you contribute to the country, German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here."

You should look the other way around. The country is contributing to YOU. You are profitting from Germany.

FinnLobsien2• 15 days ago

I‘m German, but I no longer live in Germany, so I can’t relate to the experience of immigrating to Germany.

I think a big part of the issue is a certain German presumptuousness.

There’s a general sense that Germany is a prosperous, influential country. The reason for that must be that things are done correctly in Germany.

I think this is an inherited attitude that doesn’t really correspond to reality anymore as systems are crumbling and a trip to many other European countries (including those Germans grew up to view as a barbaric hinterland or as holiday destinations) shows them that even small towns can have fast mobile internet, that you can pay by card at market vendors, and that the government can use computers.

xhevahir• 15 days ago

I spent a day or so traveling through Germany with my parents a few weeks ago as part of a (much longer) trip and a common refrain during that day was, "So much for German efficiency." Frankfurt's airport was a tiring and frustrating experience, with long delays on the tarmac, at baggage claim, at the check-in counter, etc. One rest stop on the highway was half way dismantled, with restrooms filthy enough that everybody who got a look at them turned right around and went back to their cars. And so on. I was surprised, having expected that things would be generally more functional than in the States. (I will say that the roads were in a much better state of repair.)

TMWNN2• 15 days ago

I spent a day or so traveling through Germany with my parents a few weeks ago as part of a (much longer) trip and a common refrain during that day was, "So much for German efficiency."

I've heard it said that the idea that Germans are efficient is a myth. (The new Berlin airport is one example.)

Germans are, rather, *rule followers*.

bayesianbot• 15 days ago

I come from Finland where (in my childhood) we used to say that education in Finland is the best in the world and there's really no racism or corruption.

I'm not gonna say the claims used to be true, but at least they used to be much closer to truth then than today. And I've long felt that having these kind of national beliefs can cause people/voters to neglect those things - e.g. all the bad claims about education can be just brushed off with "well we have the best education here so no worries!" - and few decades later they're not even close to true anymore.

Reminds me of a saying in poker, when many good players changed their style radically when playing against worse players and started playing way too bad starting hands (thinking they can just outplay them on the later betting rounds), something to the effect "It isn't enough that you know how to play better than your opponents, you have to actually do it"

frollogaston2• 15 days ago

Had to transfer through FRA once, never doing that again. The passport control line was Mr Beast Hunger Battle Royale Games.

AdamN• 15 days ago

German culture is thorough, not efficient.

aleph_minus_one26• 15 days ago

that you can pay by card at market vendors

When I (German) was on vacation in the Netherlands, I found it dystopic that you could often not pay cash, but had to use card. This "I don't want to be tracked" mentality is deeply ingrained into the feeling of many Germans.

So, I would rather call this not a bug, but a feature.

Schlagbohrer5• 15 days ago

Yes, I agree. Card-only, no cash allowed places are also discriminating against poor people who don't have bank accounts or who don't want to use a card, or who get paid in cash.

mft_6• 14 days ago

Eh, it’s mostly a combination of conservative anti-digitalisation plus low-key tax avoidance.

“Privacy” is a straw man argument.

nubg2• 15 days ago

where do you live now?

andor• 15 days ago

The "doing things correctly" mentality is the root of so many problems. Bureaucracy, "German engineering" (overengineering), cargo-culting, CYA, error culture, ...

yuye2• 13 days ago

There’s a general sense that Germany is a prosperous, influential country. The reason for that must be that things are done correctly in Germany.

I'm from the Netherlands(also not living there anymore) and I recognize this arrogance there, too.

And at the same time, almost paradoxically, the Netherlands has an inferiority complex.

sinoue• 15 days ago

> About 60% of emigrants return to their home countries; 40% move on to destinations such as Spain, Switzerland, Italy and Croatia.

So how many emigrants stay in Germany?

fallingbananna9• 15 days ago

You might be thinking of immigrants.

Emigrants are those that left the country... so by definition, no emigrants stay in Germany.

burner420042• 15 days ago

Somewhat off topic but since I see people discussing language proficiency using the CEFR system I'll ask.

Which certification language test is most transferrable? I'm most interested in testing for Latam Spanish if possible. SIELE or DELE?

anothereng3• 15 days ago

immigrating to cold countries who are not used to immigration is not for the faint of heart

thenoblesunfish2• 15 days ago

What are the numbers for context? How many people come? How many leave? In what jobs do they work? How does that compare to other countries?

ogou• 15 days ago

Berlin is one the cheapest capital cities in Europe. As such it attracts a huge amount of immigrants. That low cost is reflected in the pay. An experienced full stack developer would be fortunate to get 90-95k euro annually. That is plenty of money if you intend to stay in Berlin, but is not something you can save up and build a future with or transfer to another country. Also, housing is a huge problem there and it can take 6 months to find even a basic flat. I am an American developer that lived there for many years and my co-workers were usually Turkish, Polish, Ukrainian, Iranian, Russian, Lebanese, and now Indian. It was rare to find an actual German coder.

I had a hard time with German work expectations and management style. Also, their engineering approach is thorough but incredibly slow and over-built. The environment is hierarchy and credential based with little room for individual initiative or creative problem solving. I was used to improvising, experimenting, and thinking outside the box. It was not a good fit.

garbawarb• 15 days ago

Where do the German coders go though?

aleph_minus_one26• 15 days ago

Where do the German coders go though?

Currently the market for software developers is very complicated in Germany.

Basically, the answer is: if you have a job, you stay there (at least until hopefully in a few years the job market situation for software developers in Germany improves).

fallingbananna9• 15 days ago

AFAIK a lot of the highly skilled German emigrants go to Switzerland.

Tade04• 14 days ago

The question should be "where did they go?" - to Switzerland, years ago already.

How do I know? I've met them there. My project of close to 40 people was over 80% German. Contractors overall were mainly German as well.

And it makes huge sense - in the German part language is largely the same where it matters and salaries are much better. Also there aren't nearly enough Swiss programmers to fill all the positions.

If I were German, I would be in Zürich right now, admiring its hideous bare concrete 20-21st century architecture.

thi22• 15 days ago

Your first sentence is a bold claim considering the current state of the housing market

elric• 15 days ago

90-95k would be impossibly high in Belgium, which is but a stone's throw away from Germany. If that isn't enough money to save, you're doing something very wrong, or your idea of a cheap city might differ from mine.

fransje263• 15 days ago

90-95k euro annually. [..] but is not something you can save up and build a future with or transfer to another country.

Nice disconnect from reality.

90k is more than twice the median income in Germany, and by extension, more than twice the median income of most European countries.

goodroot• 15 days ago

I'm a Canadian/German dual; a praire, hockey-playing, hard-O Canadian at that.

There is nothing German about me, apart from some family myths.

Every 8 or 9 years my passport renewal at the German embassy plays out like that scene in Inglorious Basterds, where Brad Pitt's character Aldo Rain tries to pose as Italian stunt-man Enzo Gorlami.

Long German pre-amble

"Err-ahh... err - nine."

Pause and stare

"Ok een Eenglish 'zen."

nmstoker• 15 days ago

This feels rather naive in taking all the complaints at face value. The truth will be much more nuanced, and ultimately countries should be more welcoming to the genuine whilst far more discerning with the deceitful

prodmod• 15 days ago

My partner and I went to Germany and then left. We found that while they are desperate for skilled labor, they do essentially nothing to accommodate once people have come. Every step of the immigration process felt like another grift. Our Auslanderbörde appointment was borderline hostile, and our lawyer was a certified buffoon. Then daily life was beset with petty corruption. We couldn’t get an appointment at the burgeramt to register until we paid a fixer to go in on our behalf. Germany was full of petty annoyances and indignities that made it clear they want immigrants, but will not put in the effort to retain them. The U.S. is lately no friend to even skilled immigrants, but public government services are at least available in most major European and Asian languages. Go to the Netherlands instead. That’s what we would have done, if we had it to do over again.

romanhounds• 15 days ago

you could try China? I hear they are famously enlightened when it comes to people immigrating, becoming citizens, etc.

giardini• 15 days ago

Germany is literally disappearing as a nation (too low a replacement rate and other problems). Pretty awful situation. Here's Peter Zeihan's assessment of Germany's future (or lack thereof):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmEhTFjQB1g

aylmao• 15 days ago

I have friends who moved to Germany, so although I haven't been or experienced immigrating there myself, it's been in the conversation amongst my circles.

What I hear about it is that it can feel closed and lonely. Germans are not necesarily mean, but they won't fully assimilate you into their circles easily, especially if you're not European. I also hear dating can be tough if you're not German or European. It's an important factor for choosing to stay somewhere permanently if you move there in your early 20s, like my friend did.

silexia• 15 days ago

If German people move to African or Eastern countries, how long till they can get full citizenship rights? My understanding is never in most of these countries.

hyfgfh• 15 days ago

PR and citizenship are different things, one is just to reduce the paperwork and allow some bare minimum benefits and the other is citizenship

The only reason to push language requirements for PR, is to make it harder to obtain it, its politically driven

InfinityByTen2• 15 days ago

It's interesting how quickly any discussion about immigrant/expat life in Germany becomes about language. That has to account for something.

After my tenure of 11 years in the country, my impression is that there is a deeper sense of "us" v/s "them"; the language is the most PC way to express it.

If you're in the category of "us" you don't complain about the taxes or things being closed on Sundays, because you're supposed to "understand" that there's a welfare state (which has been a myth for a while now and cracks are showing up since covid). If you're in the "us", you don't claim bureaucracy is treacherous, because the language should have equipped you to fight it. You might be in the "us", if you believe with every bit of your being that rules and regulations is the best way to ensure everyone behaves properly and everything works efficiently.

If you dare challenge (m)any of these and you don't speak German good enough, it's the language. If you speak the language, then you're not "integrated". Maybe that's immigration everywhere, but I feel in Germany, there is a rather narrow band you get to be in "acceptably".

rf15• 15 days ago

I have like a dozen different german friends, and it's nothing like you say: everyone in the country curses the bureaucracy, every sunday is like "oh let's quickly get something from the shops oh no wait it's sunday uuuugh"

The taxes seem largely fine relative to the cost of living there, with people living in poorer regions at an advantage even due to the Freibetrag.

InfinityByTen2• 15 days ago

Complaining about the bureaucracy is sure everyone's favourite trauma bonding exercise, but I never hear about the solution to it. It's in the political agenda, but the solution is almost always, let's form a committee to decide the agenda of the report about it that would be 1500 pages long and be done in 72 weeks from the day of conclusion of committee's proposal. I feel the issue is the mentality towards problem solving.

Taxes are fine till Herr Merz isn't busy proposing a rug-pull on half of the things you learnt were supported here. Many of our "expat" friends faced this first hand when they lost their Kindergeld unplanned. There was a sudden hue and cry about dependents' insurance being scrapped, not sure of what's latest on it. And the English speaking, tech and finance working expats are not in poorer regions.

I don't know all Germans and maybe it is my circle, but in general I felt if I didn't mirror their hobbies, opinions, and preferences, I wasn't going to have a chance to be on the same table as them or have a heart to heart conversation with them. It's almost like it's too inefficient use of their social time and I'm pretty sure I ain't alone.

DStiego7• 15 days ago

There's two things at play here:

1. Defensiveness; one could describe it as "Stockholm syndrome"

2. What outsiders don't understand about the language thing is that it's not about how much German you need to get along in daily life. That's a similar challenge everywhere in the world.

The crux is that in Germany, correct use of the language is a social status thing, more so than in other places. Any person, whether German or foreigner, who appears to have difficulty with the language, is easily looked down upon.

fallingbananna9• 15 days ago

The point about correct use being a status thing is such a good point, that you almost never see mentioned, but definitely feel it.

Recently I saw a discussion on Reddit where the author made a minor mistake in the title, that sounds perfectly fine and understandable to me, as a non-native speaker. They used "Mit was" instead of "womit". And more than half the comments were people pointing out the mistake and making fun of the person due to it, rather than engage in the topic that was raised in the first place.

DStiego7• 15 days ago

I see two big problems:

1. A "meta-problem": While many Germans agree that things are bad, people favour completely opposite solutions.

My meta-solution to that would be decentralisation and letting more things be decided locally, but unfortunately Germans are united in favouring centralisation these days.

2. There's a strong superposition of "things are bad" and "we are still the best"; a high degree of defensiveness and stubbornness. This was accurately described as "presumptuousness" in another comment.

yuye2• 13 days ago

2. There's a strong superposition of "things are bad" and "we are still the best";

These can be reconciled by good old xenophobia: "Yes, things are horrible, but the way they do it is worse because it is not the way we do it"

mstaoru7• 15 days ago

I can add my anecdote to the language barrier points.

At work we speak English, everybody speak English all the time, all docs are in English, all meetings are in English. There's an occasional German email every now and then but people will switch.

When we go to a "team building" retreat, all the same teammates that happily chatted with us expats in English just switch to German 100%, full stop. You can come and stand at the edge of a group chatting in German and they will look at you and continue, knowing you stand there not understanding, without batting an eye.

musha68k3• 15 days ago

I've been there, same as in Quebec for French but I would see it as a learning opportunity to practice.

In Austria I've always made an effort to stay inclusively in English in these settings but it's probably normal to fall back to default language in most countries and cultures especially when the context is not about the work per se.

mstaoru7• 15 days ago

Isn't it a bit of a chicken and egg problem? You cannot join a fluent conversation without being fluent. You cannot become fluent without practicing.

moezd• 15 days ago

This. And don't forget the occasional refinement meetings during which you think you're making a group decision but your manager and the other senior (both German, speaking German, having spoken in private without your awareness) already decided on many things, even though they acknowledge that you're the more experienced person in the room. So you're treated as a rubber stamp and three months in when you have an objection because clearly you're walking into a sunken cost, will be shown ADRs (in Denglish) basically where everything's already decided in their favour.

suddenlybananas7• 15 days ago

God forbid people speak the language of their country.

mstaoru7• 15 days ago

It's an international team that is specifically hired this way. I wouldn't expect people switching for me in a bar or in an informal setting, but at work or work-related event, it's common courtesy (to me), especially if you're aware.

adamddev1• 15 days ago

Excellent anecdote. I'm not sure if you're making a judgement about their behavior at the team event.

I'm an English native speaker, new in Germany, and learning German. I personally find it really annoying and awkward when other foreigners come into German social situations and expect or push them to speak English.

- What right do I have as the foreigner to intrude and get them to speak English?

- Social life in another language has it's own shared culture, jokes, and social cues. It's not fair or realistic to make people give that all up because some foreigner walked near the circle.

- It's my problem that I'm not yet fluent. It's not their problem that they're not speaking English.

- Some people are shy about their English skills, and they do not want to be pushed to speak English in front of others, in a group social setting.

- If you want exposure and practice, these are the golden opportunities! Take a humble learners position. Be quiet, understand as much as you can, and say what little bits you can, in German, not in English. Then study, study, study as much as you can in your time alone.

I hear fellow foreigners bemoaning the fact that they can't speak German yet, but these same people will inadvertently push English into every social situation they walk into. This just doesn't work. If you want to learn the language of the land, you have to let them speak it.

I find Germans are incredibly friendly and welcoming, especially when you come in humbly, trying to learn, and don't push everyone to speak English.

ItsYan2• 15 days ago

On the other hand, the Brits will happily switch from their accent/dialect to accommodate a foreigner.

No such thing has happened to me in Germany.

mstaoru7• 15 days ago

I'm definitely making a judgement :) It is not a social situation, but a work-related event in an international team, where people have varying German language skills (some have almost none, like me). In a true social situation, of course, I will not expect by default a cashier in a shop or a clerk in a bank to speak English to me (though it's appreciated).

understand as much as you can, and say what little bits you can, in German, not in English. Then study, study, study as much as you can in your time alone

That's the whole point to add to "why people leave Germany". It's a difficult language and not everyone have time to "study, study, study". It leads to isolation, expat bubble, and leaving.

customguy4• 15 days ago

As a German, don't respect Germans who move abroad and never learn the local language because they "don't have to", either. I cut a lot more slack for people who come here, but I can't help but notice this sense of entitlement to Germany I don't see an equivalent to with other countries. There's at least one person in this thread who outright said nah, knowing English is enough, as if Germans better accept that. Honestly, wtf?

Ozzie_osman• 15 days ago

Anecdotal and more for unskilled than skilled workers, but having traveled to Germany a bunch, I found that taxi drivers and delivery drivers seem pretty unhappy there. They mention not feeling accepted, feeling constantly looked down upon, etc. There's a bit of that in every country, but generally, the immigrants I've found in Germany seem a lot less happy than the ones I've met in other countries.

jillesvangurp• 15 days ago

I've been living in Berlin for about seventeen years. My German isn't great but usable in an emergency. I get by with it. Most work related stuff is English.

Bureaucracy is an annoyance in this country. But the flip side is that if you persist, you'll manage. It's also not something that's necessarily a lot better in other big countries. But Germany could do a lot better by just moving a lot of the key processes online, cutting down on asking for the same information over and over again via paper forms, and speeding up decision processes. That's slowly happening.

With AI translations, doing things in German (or any language) is a lot easier these days for foreigners. Also making sense of the complex processes with AI is helpful. Insistence that everybody should learn German is understandable from a nationalistic point of view. But you get quite far without that. Easier than ever now. Germany could be a bit more accommodating for this.

And the reality in factories, on construction sites, etc. is that you hear a lot of other languages being spoken. Lots of eastern Europeans active in the construction industry, for example. And lots of nurses and doctors from abroad are active in their hospitals. Packages are being delivered by people from India and Pakistan. And of course German companies that sell to foreign companies have to deal with the notion that their customers mostly won't be speaking German. Germany is already a lot more international than it might like to admit.

But it's undeniably true that you need to speak German in order to interact with especially older Germans and their companies. They simply don't speak anything else. Kind of weird because many of them are super dependent on import/export markets and yet they are mortally afraid of having to be in a meeting with non German speakers. I've experienced this several times. However, the baby boom generation is retiring and younger generations are already much more internationally focused. Most younger college educated people here speak English at this point. It's not that much of a problem as it used to be.

And even talking to people is getting easier now that we have AI translations and transcriptions. I've worked my way through a few meetings in Denglish. Ugly, but it works and if you have a shared business goal, people get more flexible.

Germany has been in and out of a recession for several years now and it's working population is on track to shrink and things like its pension and healthcare system are becoming a problem financially. It will need to work smarter to get out of that and that probably is going to require working with people that won't be speaking German from outside of Germany. Easy fix for that recession is just embracing the future. Many of Germany's problems are of its own making and very fixable.

drdrek• 15 days ago

Emigrating is hard. Expect language issue, culture issue, bureaucracy issues. Other countries are not your country but with a different language, living somewhere is not the same as visiting as a tourist.

Emigrating is a generational project, you will forever be a foreigner, your children will be immanent children and only your grandchildren will be true locals.

This is not a government issue, right wing issue, racism, or what not its just a fact of life. Be prepared for it when making the decision.

aforwardslash2• 15 days ago

One of the reasons is that Germany is not a friendly country for non-german speakers (and/or if you dont have the right profile); I've worked for a while in both Berlin and Munich. In berlin you get away with english, except anything official - from opening a bank account to any interaction with the city council or government services. They will go out of your way to make you feel unwelcome if you are not a fluent german speaker. In Munich is even worse - in many "non-immigrant neighbourhoods" they wont even acknowledge you if you speak english (eg. In the supermarket), though often they understand it perfectly.

Learning german is not easy, but it is absolutely essential if you want to call it home; Id suggest anyone planning a move to start learning beforehand - the idea that you will "wing it by talking to people" is not enough.

ItsYan2• 15 days ago

Tja, Nie im Leben würde ich zu Bayern gehen.

I'm surprised that despite its claim to openness and tolerance, cities like Hamburg, Bremen or Hannover are not capitalising on this.

aforwardslash2• 14 days ago

Lol. Honestly, I love Munich, but I totally understand why certain movements galvanized there :p its easy to be on a high horse on a rich land - if something is not right, must be someone else's fault.

sajithdilshan• 15 days ago

This is a very sensitive topic. I think anyone moving to a different country has to learn the native language. That's the biggest barrier for proper integration and to feel fully at home in a new country. Whenever something is broken, needs help or in an emergency one cannot expect to have an English speaking person on the other-side.

That being said, German is not an easy language to learn. In my experience, native German speakers are quite patient and help you with practice compared to let's say French, still it would take ages to be fluent in German unless you're studying the language full time. However, if you're a skilled worker you would be working in an environment where English is used and the amount of time you'd get to learn German would be way less.

In that aspect I think Anglosphere is way more attractive for migrants to settle down and it's natural people would come to Germany, work, save some money, travel around Europe and move on to US, UK, Australia, etc. to settle down.

zexias• 15 days ago

Hihi people o/ my two cents here...

So, I have lived in Frankfurt for a couple of years now, and after talking with so many other expats, I think I have come up with a solid reason why this happens and why I am also thinking about leaving Germany. My TLDR is that Germany makes it really hard to settle down. When you are a skilled worker and you decide to come to Germany, you feel that things in your home country are holding you back, so you move here to step up, to upgrade, to move forward. And that is not what you find here.

- You drove in your previous country? Good luck getting your driver's license in Germany (I know people living in the Netherlands and Italy who have been driving since their first month there), and good luck paying so much for parking. And then, you might say: "but use public transportation". And I reply, good luck going for a dinner with your gf when it 0 degrees outside and raining to get the metro that has less availability (because it is evening already) or they are doing some maintenance in the line. In my experience here, public transportation is only good when is working hours. In Frankfurt, after working hours they reduce itinerary of a metro and during weekends - hahahaha - you would cry with me.

- You want to buy a house? Good luck finding a bank that wants to finance you without a credit history in Germany (a friend already bought a house in the Netherlands, btw). Want to rent a place? Good luck finding someone to rent their house to someone who just arrived in Germany.

- Do you have doubts or problems with bureaucracy? So cute... good luck with that too. Workers in public service do not speak English, and those who do don't want to speak English with you (and that is with me living in Frankfurt - one of the most international cities in Germany). Not even in the Ausländerbehörde do they speak English. (I am ok if the waitress in the cafeteria doesn't speak it, but not in the Ausländerbehörde).

- Then you think: "ok, let's learn the language...". Germany is the most expensive country to learn its own language that I've ever seen. I studied in France and they were teaching French for free there. All the free/cheap German courses here are not for skilled workers, because with a skilled worker's wage, you are above the threshold for social benefits and all the cheap alternatives are out of the question. Then, you might say: "but you can learn online". Fair point, but how do you expect people to connect with your country by learning online? For me, it was way cheaper to pay a professional teacher in my home country online to have individual classes than to attend a German class here.

- You have a problem in your house? Good luck waiting years for it to be "solved". I have full experience with this: we had an issue with the roof of the building and it literally took them more than 2 years to solve it. Because the roof belongs to the building and not the apartment, it is not the landlord's responsibility, and you need to find out who is responsible for it, etc.

And, on top of all this, Germany is not a cheap country to live in, and the infrastructure is far from ideal: trains are always late and expensive, and you cannot rely on DB anymore. Internet is super expensive and slow (we have a bunch of data centers in Frankfurt, but you have no fiber connection in the houses here). Energy is stupidly expensive now (due to German politicians eating shit for breakfast).

So... overall, I think skilled workers think about leaving after some years because small issues stack up, and in the end, you are not able to build a life here. And I don't even want to get into the topic of making friends here, maybe in another post.

ragazzina• 15 days ago

It's interesting that the B1 language requirement is discussed here mostly in terms of fairness. Is it reasonable or not, to require an immigrant to speak the language of the country they're immigrating to?

Whether it's fair or not is trumped by how _easy_ it is. You can get a B1 German certification in a matter of months with SRS and cheap tutors online.

This is a B1 English question:

“This is a nice bathroom.” “Yes. It’s the one _ we’ve just redecorated.” a) when b) who c) which

Otterly992• 14 days ago

The situation is kind of similar in my country (France).

My partner and I lived together in Czech Republic for 7 years where I was working as a scientist (EU to EU, pretty much no paperwork involved). She is american and obtained a "partner of EU citizen" long stay permit. We decided to move back to France and now we have to deal with bureaucracy and it is exhausting.

There are many paths by which an non-EU citizen can get residency in europe and it includes:

- Student visa (9 months, needs to apply long in advance) - Entrepreneur (need to pitch a business, needs 30k€ of savings) - Refugee - Married (the easiest one) - Family member of EU citizen (only applies when the EU citizen is not native to the country you apply to) - Family member of native citizen

We had to apply to the last one, because we only have a civil union (it's a french thing called PACS and it's not recognized as a "proper" union for permits).

We also needed to prove that we had lived together for more than a year (which we also had to do in Czech Republic) so that she could get her one year permit. The fees are opaque (the website says 350€ of tax + 100 € of processing fee but the final bill was 650€). Any document must be translated (cost us around 1000€) and official documents must be verified by apostille (which we learned when we celebrated our civil union in at the french embassy in Czech Republic).

At the end of her permit, she will need to validate an A2 level of profciency in french to apply for a multi year permit (2 to 4 years). Once she has lived 5 years here, she can apply for a permanent residency if she has a B2 level, pass a civil exam and show proofs of involvement in civic life.

All of this to say that the requirements to immigrate in Europe require either a lot of money or a lot of dedication. This really changed my view on the whole "Europe has free border, anybody can get in to steal our job" rhetoric.

anothereng3• 9 days ago

you're comparing people who enter ilegally with people who follow the legal process. It's hard to immigrate legally

hansvs• 14 days ago

Wow, lots of generalisations are being made in the comments. I'm German and have lived in the south-west for most of my life. I hope it goes without saying that Germany is a big country, both by space and population. We have some very dense urban areas (Frankfurt, Munich, and Berlin come to mind) but also very open "arsch der welt" hinterlands with villages of 100 people or fewer. This creates huge diversity in standard of living conditions as well as life experiences (and expectations). Some places are better than others, this isn't unusual. Thus, many experiences that people have written about can't be applied with any certainty to large swaths of the populace.

Regarding the DW article, yes language is a constraint and does cause issues with finding/keeping a job and integrating into one's area. Believe it or not, this can also affect us locals too [1]. The bureaucracy is often _difficult_ and people behind the counter can be unhelpful.

We definitely suffer from institutional inflexibility, leading to absurd situations, for example with our population of economically active refugees who will probably be forced to leave, which will lead to an even bigger job market deficit and possible economic decline [2], or how we blunder large scale projects like Stuttgart 21 (or 35 or 70?!?!)[3]. The German concept of identity and unity is also very complex [4,5], and sadly this reflects somewhat on our interaction with migrants. Couple this with complex domestic and international economic and political issues [6,7], and we now have a situation that is far from ideal for people coming here to work and build a life.

All this can be difficult to deal with for you who are planning to come here or those who already live here, and I really wish that weren't the case. Please don't be discouraged, we want and need you, for more than just helping to prop up our economy and welfare state (by the way, thank you!). I believe that the diversity of experiences and ideas you bring is a boon to our future.

[1] https://archive.is/20240627085213/https://www.faz.net/aktuel... [2]: https://p.dw.com/p/539wt [3]: https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/stuttgart/s... [4]: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/auf-der-suche-nach-der-deutsc... [5]: https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article13813483/Nati... [6]: https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/deutschland-ist-lau... [7]: https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/research_institute/hri-...

spwa4• 14 days ago

Why? Simple: visit a restaurant, especially one by the highway with truckers, in southern Germany, with your girlfriend/wife. But one in a town will do, just speak English, or French. It will be entirely clear after that.

Hell, I doubt you'll make it past the restaurant's door before it becomes clear.

Fire-Dragon-DoL• 5 days ago

As a European and Canadian, I find very painful the fact that in the EU you MUST know English, yet there is no country with English as primary language in the whole EU. There is also no way to live in a country by knowing only English, so effectively you need to know 2 languages by default to be part of the EU.

I know two languages and for me learning English was a terrible experience,it took so many years and so much effort, if I could get by with just one, I would.

Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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