It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2026/its-hard-to-justify-framework-12/

by watermelon0 • 2 months ago

398 663 2 months ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPVAnwuSjfk

throwaway20374• 2 months ago

This is a brutal (but polite -- classic US Midwestern Geerling 'kill them with kindness'!) side-by-side comparison. My heart goes out to the Framework Computer team. Any team trying to compete in this product space against the surprise from Mac Neo must feel crushed. That said, I am still very optimistic for Framework Computer. It seems like nerds are going wild for them.

SoftTalker2• 2 months ago

I didn't watch the video but isn't the main selling point of the Framework line (from their website) "Designed for easy customization, upgrades, and repairs."

I would imagine the Mac Neo is a sealed unit that you use as-is until it's e-waste.

akkartik2• 2 months ago

It's actually not bad. The rhetoric has had an effect over the years.

https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-r...

borgel2• 2 months ago

You won't be able to upgrade it, but it is at least moderately repairable.

rjrjrjrj6• 2 months ago

You will be able to drop an old Neo off at an Apple store and they'll recycle it. Same as with most of their other products.

hadlock2• 2 months ago

Framework is and will always be a statement device. Like modern 4x4 suvs that only haul groceries and may never see dirt roads, the upgradability of a laptop is something few will ever exercise. Most people are buying the idea.

SoftTalker2• 2 months ago

You're probably right for most people. But in laptops I've owned, I've done stuff like upgrade storage, upgrade/add RAM, swap out the WiFi module for one that has better OS driver support, replace batteries.

helterskelter• 2 months ago

Maybe. My wife is non tech and after dropping her XPS and breaking the screen she was real interested in something that can have a replacement display installed in about half an hour. She wishes her F13 were a little slimmer like her XPS, but she gets a lot of peace of mind knowing that repairs something that "even" she could do.

I'd also say that Linux support basically from day 1 is their hidden killer feature. Literally zero fuss. That's mattering to a lot more people these days even if they don't daily drive Linux, it's a good plan B in case Windows manages to get even worse.

VTimofeenko• 2 months ago

How would one know though by just looking at the device? I have chassis that came with Intel 11th gen, but the brainboxery, keyboard, battery, touchpad -- all have been swapped over time.

ssl-3• 2 months ago

I keep my laptops a very long time.

Every single one of them has seen repairs like screen replacement and hinge improvement. Every single one has had upgrades to storage, RAM, and CPU -- and at least one battery replacement. Ye olde Thinkpad is presently one hairy-looking BIOS flash away from a wifi upgrade.

I usually buy these machines inexpensively on the used market. And I'd love to buy an inexpensive Framework. Except... The supply/demand ratio seems to be in favor of the seller, as they seem to hold their value surprisingly well compared to many other machines.

Anyway, I don't want one for style points. I want one so I can keep it even longer than the Thinkpads and Dells of yore.

starkparker3• 2 months ago

my partner is a non-tech woodworker and fucking brutal on hardware, so she was addicted to Chromebooks. they cost nearly nothing, they came in weird small form factors, and they had a knack for lasting forever.

she had a day job that required her to use an older Mac and it was a relative pain in her ass that put her off Macs at home. I had a pile of retired laptops and kept trying to find one that would sway her off google.

she expressed interest in drawing functions so I started with a Lenovo Yoga. Windows wasn't an issue as soon as she figured out that she could sign into Chrome and just stay in it like a chromebook. but it was too big, too heavy, too glossy, and crashed too often. she also ended up cracking the screen in 2 months, and while the display was replaceable, the stylus digitizer part never worked again, which eliminated the one compelling feature.

next one we tried was an M1 MBA, which had all the things she hated about her work laptop. she also destroyed one of its USBC ports after 3 days, despite getting a protective cover for it, and it never consistently charged again after that. got donated in the end.

during this time I decided to upgrade my FW13 mainboard and instead picked up another full DIY kit to get the updated hinge, screen, and bottom chassis. The old Ryzen mainboard got the SSD and 2 x 8GB RAM pulled from the Yoga, and I offered it to her as an interim until she found something she liked.

she was mixed on it, but it stood up to her. what sold her on it was that when she dropped it on a concrete floor and bent the bottom chassis near the expansion ports, I just bought her a new bottom chassis and linked her to the replacement video. She had it swapped out in an hour and a half, her first solo computer repair.

so now her top two laptops of all time are:

- that shitty 10" Acer chromebook, still, because it was 10" and matte and about $60

- the FW13, which she's since added about 2 pounds of stickers to and also upgraded the hinge and battery on herself

most people are buying the idea, yeah. we have to, in order to show other people what the idea means in practice

Rebelgecko3• 2 months ago

It may be less valuable now because of RAM/SSD prices, but I was able to benefit from my framework's modularity on Day 1 by saving hundreds of dollars by buying those components a la carte Instead of paying the heavily marked up prices some vendors charge for upgrades.

Lukas_Skywalker2• 2 months ago

Bought the Framework 13 in March 2022 with 16GB RAM and a 512GB SSD for about $1000. Later, I upgraded RAM and SSD to 32GB/2TB (for about $180), which made it a breeze to run multiple VMs and Docker containers in parallel. Meanwhile, the Macbook M1 Pro I got from work half a year earlier cost more than $2500 for 16GB RAM and a 1TB SSD and crashes when I dare to open Docker or the Android Simulator and keep a browser open for too long. I really like the M1, but it is unusable for my current workloads, and there is no way to adapt it.

afavour• 2 months ago

Eh, I think the framing isn't quite right here. The Neo is a wonderful machine but if you want to upgrade it you're out of luck, the damn thing is sealed shut. By comparison the Framework lets you upgrade individual components over time to keep your system up to date without buying a whole new one.

Maybe that doesn't matter for the godson. But it's an important differentiator: the Framework is a (semi) premium product with premium features. If you don't intend to use those features, paying the premium rarely makes sense.

quentindanjou• 2 months ago

That might be true to some extent but what about the current product? It's nice to tell yourself that you can upgrade it in the future but the best of what the product is today isn't a great value, will the future upgrade make it better? Should we purchase a product today on what it might be tomorrow?

I think Jeff is correct when he says, "for an overall worse experience, are you willing to pay 20-40% more?". That's a tough sell. I think the only reason for me to take the Framework 12 over the Neo would be because I want to advocate for a world where upgradability and repairability are common things.

topaz05• 2 months ago

I don't think the idea is that the upgrade will take it from decent to stellar compared to other things you might be able to buy for the same money, it's about paying a bit extra now to be able to go from decent-in-2026 to decent-in-2031 while paying a fraction of the cost that you would buying a full replacement in 2031, not to mention saving a bunch of waste. And then in 2036, and 2041, and 2046... They haven't been around long enough to be confident it'll work out that way, but that's the bet in my mind.

Aurornis5• 2 months ago

The Neo is a wonderful machine but if you want to upgrade it you're out of luck, the damn thing is sealed shut. By comparison the Framework lets you upgrade individual components over time to keep your system up to date

The Framework 12 in the story costs $799, a $300 premium over the $499 MacBook Neo.

So you're paying an extra $300 up front for the option of spending more to upgrade it in the future, and getting a slower computer during that time.

That's a 60% premium to have the ability to upgrade a slower laptop.

Alternatively, they could sell the MacBook Neo for $200 in a couple years and buy a next-gen MacBook Neo and they'd still come out ahead.

Some people value upgradeability to an extreme, but I can't see a justification for spending a 60% premium to buy a worse product just to be able to maybe upgrade it in a few years. This is a starter laptop.

simjnd• 2 months ago

I think this model works for the 13 and 16, because you're already buying a good laptop that you can keep longer by upgrading. The 12's base specs and more than that the experience is pretty bad. The screen and speakers are terrible.

The 13 also targets people buying it for themselves and who value ownership. The 12 targets the education market and how many 14 year olds are sensitive to ownership, repairability and e-waste? If they are they would probably get something better second hand. You'd have to have a parent that is sensitive to this issue and is also willing to force down this bad laptop onto their children instead of whatever they prefer.

I love Framework, and the bet to try to win over the education market was worth making but the execution is so poor that I don't think it works out.

The MacBook Neo will happily last you the 4 years of highschool and maybe your bachelor.

dredmorbius3• 2 months ago

The 12 for me has a very strong appeal as a smartphone / tablet replacement.

I've had smartphones and/or tablets for approaching 20 years now, and they've always struck me as very frustrating compromises. Mostly Android, but some use of iOS as well, and yes, the OS (in both cases) is fundamental to the limitations.

I've also used MacOS heavily (I'm on it now), and I don't like it, relative to Linux.

The Framework Laptop 12 is smaller than my most recent tablet (a 13.3" e-ink), though somewhat more massive. It frees myself from a plethora of Android limitations, crapware, inconsistencies, and the non-repairability of the hardware itself (presently an issue). It gives a real-computer experience, with some compromises for size, but I'm pretty sure that's a net win.

Paired with a limited-feature phone and possibly a few dedicated devices for specific uses (camera, audio recorder), I'm good.

And the 12 should provide an easy decade of service.

MostlyStable2• 2 months ago

The neo isn't upgradeable, but it also isn't sealed shut. It's actually one of Apple's most repairable devices. If I were in the market for this class of device, I personally would still go with Framework for a variety of reasons, but I still think it's important to give apple praise for the pro-consumer choices they made (and probably could have gotten away without) in the Neo.

johanyc• 2 months ago

the apple way to upgrade is to sell your old neo and buy neo 2. I wonder if the math changes when we take long term use into account

pixel_popping• 2 months ago

Both of them seems suicidal, 8GB RAM is really annoying to deal with.

dheera5• 2 months ago

You can put 48GB in a Framework 12 which makes it slightly more usable.

dredmorbius3• 2 months ago

And you can do that whenever you choose to do so, not simply at time-of-purchase.

Something worth considering with the present RAM-market madness.

aftbit3• 2 months ago

If you're ideologically willing to use a Mac, you're really not the market that the Framework is targeting. Apple has always had some of the best hardware. Where they really struggle is in respecting user choice and allowing power users to alter their systems. The Neo is an appliance. The Framework is a tool. They're fundamentally intended for different people.

If your choice of platform is driven by hardware instead of software, and you really like tablet mode, check out a Surface Pro. They're decent tablets that run full Windows/Linux instead of some neutered tablet OS, with a keyboard you can attach to use like a laptop.

noelsusman• 2 months ago

I think Framework would disagree that their target market consists solely of people ideologically opposed to owning Apple hardware.

horsawlarway3• 2 months ago

They might disagree with that framing, but it does seem to be the majority of folks I see who are interested in them.

And I'm not saying that as a negative - my Framework 13 is my favorite laptop by a fairly wide margin, but it's clearly not at the hardware level of my work issued mac.

Apple produces fantastic hardware. It's a shame I can't stand them as a company, and that they cripple that hardware with their OS.

Prior to framework, I'd be buying something along the lines of a Dell XPS (developer edition for linux compatibility) because a mac is just a non-starter for me. But a mac hands-down the best hardware you can get for a personal laptop right now. Turns out that's not the main driver of what laptop I want.

fl0ki2• 2 months ago

The Neo is an appliance. The Framework is a tool.

I get where you're coming from in principle, but I'm not sure to what audience this actually applies. If you just want a laptop that can run the software you use, both are adequate as tools. The Framework's greater flexibility only applies to making changes to the tool itself, which doesn't matter if you didn't need to change it to suit your purposes. (And I say that as someone who has built their own Linux & Windows PCs from parts since high school, because I know I'm not the target audience for a Neo)

It's like I consider my Dewalt power drill a very decent tool because it has exactly the modularity I need -- it even has interchangeable batteries -- and it wouldn't even occur to me to call it an outright appliance even if another power drill offered more customization for some niche use case. The Neo is an adequate tool for many people even if other tools do offer more customization or maintainability.

This would be a much stronger argument against using an iPad for productivity, because many people simply cannot run the software they need, or only at a significant expense to productivity and quality of life. I use iOS devices only as communication and media terminals, and even then I would struggle to call them appliances, they're still tools for their particular tasks.

aftbit3• 2 months ago

True, I was being a bit loose with my terminology. Some tools reward customization more than others. Machine tools and 3d printers are often used to produce parts, mods, and upgrades for themselves, for example. Screwdrivers aren't usually used to work on themselves though.

The principle I was trying to express is that a Framework (and Linux, for that matter) is a tool more like a mill or an older 3d printer from the RepRap era. You will get the most out of it if you spend time customizing it, altering it, upgrading it, understanding it, etc. A MacBook Neo is a tool more like a screwdriver or a power drill. It is immediately fit for its purpose, even if that purpose isn't quite as wide ranging.

It feels a bit odd to compare them directly across categories. The MacBook Neo feels like it should be compared to a Chromebook or a cheap Windows laptop, not a high-end Linux-first upgradable machine. That's like comparing a Dewalt power drill to a 1930s drill press. They can both drill a hole... but they're just not the same tool, and I (personally) wouldn't expect to use them in the same way.

Framework's hero image when you build the laptop is someone removing the keyboard to tinker with the machine.[1] If you don't intend to do that, then yeah, it's probably not the choice for you. If you are indifferent between macOS and Linux, then it's probably not the choice for you.

1: https://static.frame.work/8pbsbvkvt7p9nayyn32gzyg84spa

tshaddox• 2 months ago

It's a bizarre distinction, because "tool" does not imply "highly customizable" or even "repairable." In fact, even the distinction between "appliance" and "tool" is odd, since those are nearly synonymous in everyday usage, and both strongly imply a device designed for a narrow use case.

Havoc2• 2 months ago

If you're ideologically willing to use a Mac

A grouping that has substantially expanded recently. Me included.

I'd prefer to run linux, but if my usage case is browser, opencode, neovim and terminal...all of those I can make work in a mac world if need be

MBCook8• 2 months ago

As an Apple user: not always. When I left Windows for PPC my PowerBook G4 was at best even with my previous (not new) PC laptop.

It looked great. Quality was great. Grunt was not.

Since the Intel era they have been fantastic, on the whole.

viktorcode• 2 months ago

I don't think people buy Macs for ideology. They buy cause they like it. Framework, on the other hand, is more ideological proposition than practical. Which is fine, because whatever your choice is it should make you feel comfortable.

aftbit3• 2 months ago

People _avoid_ buying Macs for ideology.

jeffbee2• 2 months ago

I'd guess the problem with the display is software, not hardware, and it just goes to show that the model of slapping parts together and using random downloadable software doesn't always turn out right.

geerlingguy3• 2 months ago

It seems like they had two issues (both hardware) related to display quality: one is they couldn't have a custom display made to their specs, so they had to pick something off the shelf to meet requirements. Two is they used a 30 pin display connector (see https://community.frame.work/t/does-fl12-have-a-40-pin-edp-c...), so certain resolutions and refresh rates probably can't work.

eduction2• 2 months ago

If you're not willing to pay a 20% premium for upgradability/fixability, then you don't _really_ want it. And that's fine!

The Neo is an example of how this tradeoff should work: You lose flexibility but gain a lower price. For other Apple laptops, the price is on the high end and also you lose flexibility. This seeming contradiction is what helped open up the market opportunity for Framework.

(To complicate my argument a bit, it happens to be the case that the Neo is actually, for a Macbook, highly repairable, but the original article doesn't actually mention this so presumably they didn't think much about that. https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-r... )

(Also, I'm not putting down the overall value of pricier Macbooks. You get other things in return for those prices, they are still a good value and I own some Macbooks, I'm just looking at the price <-> repairability axis here... The Neo is a particularly clear example of price vs repairability)

Aurornis5• 2 months ago

If you're not willing to pay a 20% premium for upgradability/fixability, then you don't _really_ want it. And that's fine!

$799 versus $499 is a 60% premium.

The best case numbers are buying used RAM and SSD for the Framework like Jeff did in the article ($749 total, if you can find the RAM at those prices) and comparing against the non-EDU MacBook Neo at $599. That's still a 25% premium.

tracker18• 2 months ago

Now pretend you can't get the student discount and actually want the extended warranty/applecare and compare the final result.

Now pretend you want to bump up to 16gb of ram so you can run a VM.

eduction2• 2 months ago

Original article: "The problem is, for an overall worse experience, are you willing to pay 20-40% more?"

an0malous• 2 months ago

If you're not willing to pay a 20% premium for upgradability/fixability, then you don't _really_ want it. And that's fine!

This is a completely sensible take, but many on this forum believe upgradability/fixability should be mandated by law in spite of posts like this where consumers choose against this option in spite of what the repairability activists say. It's likely that the EU will in fact pass some laws to mandate this because of this vocal minority and because it's popular to stand up to Big Tech.

GeekyBear6• 2 months ago

the Mac is faster (in most cases), more efficient, quieter, built better, has a much nicer display, and costs much less.

The Framework is more expensive, slower (in most cases), louder (its fan ramps up quite often), has a pretty poor display, but it is a touchscreen, has a 360° hinge, and is more repairable and upgradeable.

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2026/its-hard-to-justify-f...

The thing I was not expecting was that the Intel i3 was not that far ahead on sustained loads, even with the fan at 100%.

there's one performance-related area where the Framework pulls ahead—a little

dheera5• 2 months ago

has a pretty poor display

Framework 13 has a very good display while 12 has a crappy display.

If I was buying a new laptop the Framework 12 seems like a really nice portable form factor but the crappy screen of the 12 would hold me back.

jimmaswell• 2 months ago

I have a 12 and the screen is fine. It's no OLED but I have no complaints for what it is. I love it as a secondary tablet-laptop for drawing and reading comics (primary laptop is a Framework 16 which I'm also in love with for Unity3D game dev and similar tasks, that one needs Windows for Visual Studio but I'm enjoying Gentoo on the 12)

artooro• 2 months ago

I understand Jeff's argument, but he is missing the fact that one of the features of the Framework 12 is the modularity of the components. So if that is not a valued feature in this scenario, sure it's hard to justify.

hellisothers• 2 months ago

I love building and upgrading stuff as well as paying (much) more for tools that will last. But this is a laptop not a socket set, paying (a lot) more for worse performance up front makes absolutely no sense. Seems like the argument should be the Framework 12 just shouldn’t exist.

GeekyBear6• 2 months ago

he is missing the fact that one of the features of the Framework 12 is the modularity of the components

He does explicitly make that point.

The biggest win is the modular ports.

ndiddy• 2 months ago

I think what makes the perspective in the article interesting is that buying individual components a la carte isn't a good value in today's market. Sure you can upgrade the RAM and SSD in the Framework, but 16 GB of laptop DDR5 is $200 and a 1 TB 2230 SSD is another $200. The question becomes, is it worth it to spend 40% more for a laptop with 40% less performance (as well as worse build quality, a worse screen, worse speakers, worse battery life, and running hotter) so you can have the potential to spend half the price of the laptop to upgrade it in the future?

DeathArrow• 2 months ago

What's next, in 2027 will they release laptops with 4GB RAM? Are we going backwards?

topaz05• 2 months ago

Let's hope software gets enough less bloated to make that workable.

tracker18• 2 months ago

Maybe... While less than perfect, I think even moving to shared browser runtimes like Tauri and similar are a boost over Electron. Not to mention shifting backend work to Rust over JS/TS. There's a lot of performance on the table to gain without even dramatically changing most of the application UI/UX.

dijit3• 2 months ago

To be honest, I am currently living with major Schadenfreude regarding ram costs.

For literally years, SV companies have had a "ship fast, fuck the users" mentality when it comes to resource usage, as if software is written more often than it's run.

Finally having some constrained supply of memory will force people to actually build software that can be reasonably used on 5 year old hardware (which would otherwise be perfectly servicable).

Slack from 2015 doesn't meaningfully add anything over Slack from 2025 yet I need 3x the RAM to run it.

Teams is worse somehow.

__s• 2 months ago

but I can't run Arch on the neo. literally unplayable

I have a fw13, best Linux laptop I've ever had, & I've bought System76 in the past

Aurornis5• 2 months ago

I love that Framework exists and I hope they succeed.

I have been recommending them to friends and family who are looking for Windows or Linux laptops, though with some reservations due to the problems with a couple of their models.

However I don't see the value in the Framework 12 over a MacBook Neo if someone isn't choosing by OS first. The $499 MacBook Neo is just so good for the price and so well built. The $499 price is the education price, which is relevant for the student in the story.

The upgradeability is a benefit of the Framework 12, but look at the premium you pay for that option: $799 versus $499 is a 60% premium paid up front. You could sell the MacBook Neo for $200 in a couple years and buy a next-generation MacBook Neo for probably a very similar financial to buying the Framework 12 and not upgrading it.

cromka6• 2 months ago

This. People really underestimate or straight up ignore resale value of Apple products. Just because you can upgrade a Framework laptop it doesn't make it a better value over the long term.

gosub100• 2 months ago

Can't believe the cost of the trash can mac pros. I always wanted one and put it on my long term to-do list, but they're still $500+. Even if they can be had for less, I won't buy one because my tolerance for tinkering has since dwindled. But it's quite a testament that they are still that expensive.

marssaxman• 2 months ago

if someone isn't choosing by OS first.

What a surprising idea! I have always and only ever chosen by OS first. Are there really a significant number of people willing to buy a computer with no concern for the type of software it will be able to run?

mingus882• 2 months ago

Outside of tech professionals, yes.

It’s 2026 and what people don’t do in an app, they mostly do in a browser. An entire generation of “digital native” people are now adults who don’t even understand what a file system is, don’t understand folder structures, and don’t care what OS they run.

That said, having a computer that seamlessly integrates with their mobile device is a huge feature. So the MacBook neo not only being so affordable but fitting into the Apple ecosystem is a slam dunk for normal people

Aurornis5• 2 months ago

Are there really a significant number of people willing to buy a computer with no concern for the type of software it will be able to run?

Most common software that typical buyers use is available on Mac or Windows: Web browsers, office software, maybe an e-mail client.

This is why Chromebooks are a viable option, too.

Even my software development workflows are mostly cross-platform when I think about it. I can run all of my IDEs and text editors on my Mac, Windows, and Linux computers.

jerlam3• 2 months ago

Most regular users do everything via the web, where there is little difference between the OSes. Gaming is the only thing that comes to mind where regular users notice a dramatic difference.

aldanor• 2 months ago

What type of software will you not be able to run? Your browser will work just the same, and your dev env and devtools will be just the same, and it's a posix environment. If that's what I need most and it runs just about the same on macos/linux then why not prioritize the hardware?

theshrike79• 2 months ago

I'm not exactly living paycheck to paycheck and I support FOSS where I can.

But it's really hard to justify the cost of a Framework compared to a similarly priced Macbook =(

Yes, the Framework is updateable and repairable, but on the other hand I'm regularly daily driving 4-5 year old Macbooks with zero issues. Especially when the M-series dropped, the competition is just so far behind. Even more so when considering the ability to run local LLMs on a non-gaming laptop.

benoau6• 2 months ago

It's $599, and they validate students for discounts now so for the vast majority of people $599 is the price.

https://www.theverge.com/tech/926675/apple-education-discoun...

layer83• 2 months ago

The $599 model is also at risk: https://www.theverge.com/gadgets/925997/apple-macbook-neo-pr...

princevegeta89• 2 months ago

I think their only advantage in the business is pricing somewhat lower than comparable MacBooks and also having the option of replacing individual parts. But I think MacBooks, especially with AppleCare, are an irreplaceable deal. They cost a bit higher, but then their resale value is also quite high and they are pretty damn reliable. They even survive drops and abuse. The hardware components like speakers, camera, Wi-Fi chip, etc. are all top notch. I am happy to spend $500 extra just for peace of mind and the option to not have to deal with headaches alone. This is coming after my experience with Linux desktop and several distros on my custom-built PC that I ran for many years.

And M5 and M5 Pro are kicking the hell out of comparable ARM processors, and even their own predecessors for that matter.

And high quality software in modern computing and options only exist on the macOS platform. Windows is full of junk, otherwise it would have had some chance there. But the entire platform is far too mismanaged and it is very predatory that using the platform, the OS itself, feels like a fucking pain in the ass. I would put Linux above Windows, and while it is very complete and has a billion options and customizability, there are some pain points for me in terms of upgrades and also available software tools that I use from day to day. Many of them just don't exist for this platform.

And I am not even talking about the privacy aspect here. Obviously, macOS is more friendly in that sense, and that gives them another vote on top of these existing votes already.

Moldoteck3• 2 months ago

Framework has it's value for ppl that are afraid dropping their laptops/ breaking the screen. Personally i still prefer macs, but I have friends that do value such "features". For the same reason they are willing to buy the Fairphone despite inferior specs/higher per spec price

jmclnx• 2 months ago

From the screen prints of the display, I like the colors better on the framework. But I would agree that it could be due to some very minor issues with my eyes if more people like the Apple display colors better :)

mixmastamyk11• 2 months ago

Uncles don’t let relatives buy less than 16gb ram. That has been my standard since ~2010 and our 2013 mbp is still running fine because I insisted on it.

I prefer FW for freedom reasons, that’s worth a few hundred as well as the ram. Would also wait for the new intel chipset that is more efficient however.

Finally I think the FW 12 is weirdly positioned, as the 13 is already thin and light. For a tablet, I recommend the Star Labs Starlite instead. Both in same package? Clunky.

Guess I’d recommend a used FW 13 and Starlite instead. That’s what I have now and no real reason to upgrade, and freedom to tinker is off the charts, perfect for a student.

Mashimo2• 2 months ago

Uncles don’t let relatives buy less than 16gb ram. That has been my standard since ~2010 and our 2013 mbp is still running fine because I insisted on it.

Just last weekend I bought 8gb ram thinkpad t14 for an elderly relative. 240 EUR.

It replaces his thinkpad x220 where the fan and ssd slowly dies.

I doubt it becomes an issue, and if it does then I can upgrade it later.

mixmastamyk11• 2 months ago

You can do it once and spend an extra hundred dollars or do it twice, including occasional restrictions to the user. Poor tradeoff imho.

This is a young person with a long life ahead, we shouldn’t buy disposable ewaste with a short life.

slopinthebag2• 2 months ago

MacBooks don't need as much ram - I have an m1 air with 8gb of ram and it's perfectly serviceable, I can even run IntelliJ on it...

mixmastamyk11• 2 months ago

Compared to what? Not really true, and hard on the swap drive. Penny-wise meet pound.

cromka6• 2 months ago

I never run out of memory on macoOS on my M1 Air 16GB. Now that I use Asahi on it, I had plenty of OoM crashes.

macOS is really good at memory management, including the compression and offloading to the fast SSD.

2OEH8eoCRo03• 2 months ago

I don't give a shit how fast and cheap the Neo is because I can't install the software I want/need on it or use it how I want.

jeffbee2• 2 months ago

This is, if crude, the correct take. You always choose your applications first, then the operating system best suited for them, then the hardware platform.

rjrjrjrj6• 2 months ago

Such as?

Feels like the Neo covers pretty much all the bases:

browsers like Chrome, Firefox, and alternatives

IDEs like VSCode, IntelliJ, Eclipse

open source heavy hitters like QGIS, Blender, Ghostty, even Gimp

unix command line tools via HomeBrew, etc

commercial suites like MS Office and Adobe

MarsIronPI2• 2 months ago

For me it'd be EXWM. I can't run my normal X11 window manager on MacOS.

Shalomboy• 2 months ago

It is such a shame, too, because what Framework has achieved at this pricepoint should be commended. The fact that their business can sustain a lower-margin SKU like the Framework 12 is nothing short of extraordinary! But wow, the MacBook Neo threw a bomb into the low-end market.

regularfry• 2 months ago

The GPU fares poorly on Intel's side

'Twas ever thus. I really wish we had a better baseline default without having to reach for NVidia/AMD.

BizarroLand• 2 months ago

Intel's iGPU has gotten better over the years, but an external is always going to have vastly more capability than an internal one.

That being said, for retro gaming or even playing games from the mid 2010's, the iGPU in a modern intel chip should do well enough.

antonf• 2 months ago

The problem with Apple laptop is few years into the future - it's what will happen when Apple drop support for this hardware in OS X. Even if Asahi Linux or similar will be in a good enough state, you will still have to go through pain of adjusting to new system, moving data, figuring out how to access your iCloud/time machine/etc...

Unfortunately for Framework, people who think this way make poor customers - can't justify buying Framework while my Lenovo X230 is working fine.

mattbillenstein• 2 months ago

I tried using refurb'd Thinkpads as my travel machine for a long time - they're very brittle hard to fix laptops - kinda like Macbooks.

The Framework on the other hand is so easy to work on and get parts for - I know this isn't probably a main selling point for most users, but if you need this, Framework is like the only game in town.

racl1012• 2 months ago

Never understood the people who keep saying Macbooks are expensive. They make it sound like unreasonably expensive. Sure maybe before the Intel Macs in 2006. But for the last 20 years they've been not the cheapest but not the most expensive either.

And when you factor all the time you waste on Windows, especially at the time Windows Vista, which had insane memory requirements, and compared them to Mac Os (X at the time) which ran pretty good on the cheapest models, and factored in the fact that OS upgrades were free, it ended up being on par if not better proposition. (Assuming you're not trying to run some exclusively Windows software on it or gaming).

And with the MacBook Neo. Forget it about it. It's almost, just almost a foregone conclusion for an entry machine that it is a much better proposition.

Does Apple have a lot of overpriced products. Yes, yes they do. But they it also doesn't mean you had to buy it either.

devmor• 2 months ago

MacBooks are only expensive when you need performance upgrades, the base models are really not that bad for what you get.

But if you want to add a little more to your spec sheet, you might as well go somewhere else.

racl1012• 2 months ago

That's true. Even a slight memory or storage bump up is more than if you were to DIY. I guess convenience is where they get you.

tracker18• 2 months ago

They get pretty expensive when you bump the ram and storage... I mean, it's less noticeable in today's market, but it was pretty rough... IIRC my M1 Air cost close to $3k with the extra memory, storage and 3 years of apple care, vs something like $1300 base price iirc. Similar for prior Macbook Pros I've had.

If you can get by with a base model, they've been an okay deal.. and as mentioned a lot of the build features, display, touchpad, etc. are top of the line, best in class. But before the Neo, I'd still often pick a Lenovo Ideapad or similar for ~$500 or so first, and still might for more ram/storage.

Mac is really good and the ram performance is generally better than slotted ram, so that helps a lot. It doesn't help, however if you want to run a VM/Docker or things that allocate/isolate memory usage away from native apps.

I haven't even had a system with less than 16gb ram since before 2009... I've used as much as 70gb of memory with certain workloads on my desktop (though usually not nearly that much), but it's nice to have if/when you do need it without thrashing the storage drive.

taude4• 2 months ago

I really want a Framework 12, but not in current incarnation. Hoping for an upgrade with aluminum body. I don't mind the pricepoint. But didn't want a plastic notebook at this point. Want a great couch computer for surfing the net, ssh'ing to machines, writing, etc....

What I surprisingly really miss, is my macbook air 11".

But probably won't be surprised if I end up with a Framework 13 Pro once they're caught up on delivery. I'm really hoping they have an announced 12 revision by then, though.

cassianoleal• 2 months ago

I had a MacBook Air 11" back in the day. 2nd or 3rd generation, I can't remember. The one that didn't stutter on YouTube. Amazing machine! I had always wished the screen was slightly bigger though. The insanely large bezel was a waste of space.

geerlingguy3• 2 months ago

MacBook Air 11" form factor with 12" retina display (with thinner bezels) and M1 or A19 would be peak portability for me.

mixmastamyk11• 2 months ago

And Panther Lake or competitive AMD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_Lake_(microprocessor)

j45• 2 months ago

The 12" footprint is really unique and useful.

Anyone who has held or used a 12" Macbook Retina knows this. Right about 2 LB, and very thin. They make amazing second or primary laptops depending on how mobile/flexible you want to be.

The piece the Framework 12 and Neo are missing is the weight and thickness, but they will be able to get there. If the Framework 12 had been thin and light, I would likely be holding one

tracker18• 2 months ago

Now upgrade both options to 16gb of ram so you can run Docker or a VM. Oops.

quickquack• 2 months ago

I have a Framework 12 and I absolutely love it. It's cute and super portable, and the 12-inch form factor is just perfect.

Sure, the hardware might not be the newest, but it's more than enough for me since I mostly do remote development. Plus, it has 48 GB of RAM, which lets me load the entire system into memory, making it feel super responsive.

But what I love most is how durable it is, which matters a lot because I'm honestly pretty careless with my stuff. Just yesterday, I grabbed my backpack off the table without realizing it was open. My Framework went flying across the entire room and slammed into the wall, and there wasn't even a single scratch on it. An aluminum laptop would've had a nasty dent at the very least.

And even if the whole frame had shattered, I could just order a new one for 55 dollars. Same story with the keyboard. One of the keys was making this annoying clicking sound, so I just detached it, stuck a little piece of tape underneath, and it was good as new. I only felt comfortable doing that because I knew that worst case, I could get a whole new keyboard for 55 dollars.

Honestly, not having to handle my laptop carefully is worth so much to me. I also don't stress about battery care, whatever to preserve long-term battery life, because replacing the battery costs, you guessed it, 55 dollars.

sekh60• 2 months ago

The repair ability is why I went with a Framework. My last two laptops had keyboards that lasted until a few months after the warranty. Rest of the laptop works, but I can't find replacement keyboards at a reasonable price. So a framework, and I bought a spare keyboard upfront on the off chance they go bankrupt.

trynumber9• 2 months ago

What's the real cause of them being unable to price competitively?

Is it DRAM, NAND flash storage, SoC cost, simply scale?

mschuster91• 2 months ago

Efficiencies of scale and experience, on multiple levels.

Component sourcing is the most obvious thing - Apple is known to buy up inventory years in advance for example and at insane quantities. TSMC's last new node? Apple paid billions to be the initial and, most importantly, exclusive customer. With hundreds of billions of dollars in cash and liquid assets, Apple can afford to sit on "dead money" for years - a small shop like Framework can't.

As for the Neo specifically, this thing shouldn't even exist, but Apple found themselves sitting on a stash of half defective iPhone SoCs. But instead of trashing them, they effectively recreated the netbook market segment...

LarsDu887• 2 months ago

The MacBook Neo is just the response to the question of "what do we do with all these binned iPhone chips without making yet another even lower cost iPhone?"

It's literally recycling Apple's garbage.

well_ackshually• 2 months ago

All of these, and more. Macbook Neos benefit from all the hardware that Apple makes in-house, reusing CPUs that they already make for iPhones but didn't make the cut, have zero upgradeability, benefit from massive economies of scale, contracts are already signed in advance, the delivery and logistics of an existing chain...

Framework has to go talk to Intel and AMD, get parts shipped, assembled onto a motherboard that they have to make themselves and ordered in very low amounts then shipped all to their fulfillment center, then fedexed, have to source components... Even not taking into account the fact that Apple already has all of the hardware made or available in-house, just the supply and logistics chain is an easy 10% of the final price.

tristanj• 2 months ago

Macbook Neo is manufactured with leftover / binned A18 Pro iPhone chips, these chips have a defective GPU Core and Apple was sitting on millions of these. Apple does not have an easy way to dispose of these chips, the base iPads use 2 generations old A16 chips & the iPad pros use M series chips. So they created a new product line.

The Macbook Neo is cheap because the CPU/GPU/Memory chip is sold below cost. The Neo line exists to dispose of / repurpose binned A18 Pro chips and when these run out Apple will significantly raise prices.

This is the identical situation to what happened with the original Raspberry Pi, the Pi company acquired leftover Broadcom BCM2835 chips for almost nothing, and were able to sell Raspberry Pis for an impossibly cheap price of $35.

ddxv2• 2 months ago

I wish Framework had released a gamepad or a printer instead of a keyboard. I get that they need to expand their ecosystem and revenue stream, but keyboard just wasn't it for me. There are so many good reliable cheap keyboards already, though I guess none with the touchpad, but again just not for me.

The gamepad I think would have been the killer device. Look at how much attention the steam gamepad gets. Sure, I have two gamepads already and I use them to play games on a dedicated (framework) computer hooked up to the living room TV. But guess what doesn't work? Turning the computer/TV on with the gamepad. It's so small, but so frustrating, also anytime the screens go off or sleep. So I have to keep a little $10 wireless keyboard there to turn the TV on / wake the computer.

My understanding is this is what holds it (and all other gamepads) back: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/SoftwareFirmwareIssueTr...

Steam is going to get there by having both the gamepad + the computer which then makes it possible to workout the various TV implementations.

vaylian• 2 months ago

or a printer

Someone else is doing that: https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer

l72• 2 months ago

I know nothing about this, but they do seem to have a gamepad: https://frame.work/products/8bitdo-ultimate-2c-wireless-cont...

jerlam3• 2 months ago

That's not made by Framework, they're just reselling it.

starkparker3• 2 months ago

it's an 8BitDo product in the Framework store that wasn't designed or manufactured by Framework

LarsDu887• 2 months ago

What Framework is trying to do feels like something that would've made more sense 10 years ago.

And the reason for that is b/c of Moore's Law approaching its end.

The way to manufacture more efficient compute now is do things like put DRAM closer to the chip and even closer integration between CPU and GPU. The fact that Apple can co-design their silicon such that the CPU and GPU can pull from the same pooled RAM is a major advantage over competitors. There are also latency and bandwidth benefits how they setup their RAM just from pure physics. And chip manufacturing is moving towards chiplets where you have cores manufactured separately and then wired together at nanoscale level on top of a silicon interposer.

The current best-practice unfortunately is closer to Apple's "hemetically sealed appliance" philosophy, and not the "I build my own PC" philosophy.

When you have CPU, GPU, and even DRAM sitting on the same "die" the only things you're going to be swapping out on your Framework laptop are going to be relatively trivial.

bhouston3• 2 months ago

CPU, GPU, and even DRAM sitting on the same "die"

This is actually great. The laptop body stays the same and you swap out a small mini circuit board that has the CPU + GPU + DRAM on it.

This is the point of the Framework laptops. They are just unfortunately stuck with non-Apple parts and thus are slow / inefficient.

Maybe Qualcomm can make a motherboard for Framework high end laptops with their Snapdragon X2 Elite Extreme ARM-based CPUs that are supposedly competitive with Apple's M4 offerings?

And then offer a cut down Qualcomm mobile phone CPU + GPU + DRAM offering for the Framework 12 so that it can compete on price/performance with the MacBook Neo?

I think you need to complete with Apple with the right equivalents.

LarsDu887• 2 months ago

Funny thing is, the circuit board on the Neo is barely smaller than that of the lowest end iPhone. The only remaining big cost item swappable item at that point is the display.

The benefits of modularity begin to get outweighed by the costs when 85% of the cost of the machine needs to be swapped out with each upgrade. For consumers, why would they not simply opt to spend the rest of the 15% to get a whole new computer?

borgel2• 2 months ago

Yeah, I think this is the right idea (or the most optimistic path towards M-series power/performance). If you wanted something fully/aggressively open you could do something like build a mainboard compatible with one of MNT's fully open SOMs like [1].

[1] https://shop.mntre.com/products/mnt-reform-rcore-rk3588-proc...

Danox3• 2 months ago

Qualcomm is basically at heart a patent troll company. They give nothing away and they double dip on their Frand patents they won’t support anything if they don’t have to good luck if you think Apple is bad Qualcomm is on a whole different level…

bigyabai10• 2 months ago

that the CPU and GPU can pull from the same pooled RAM is a major advantage over competitors

It can be an advantage, it also has downsides though. LPDDR5 is fairly slow as far as GPU memory goes, and on Apple Silicon it splits the bandwidth across the entire chipset. Many recent Macbooks have dGPU-tier hardware constrained by Wintel-laptop memory bandwidth.

And if Apple uses DDR5, why not CAMM? If Apple uses NVMe, why not M.2? Many of the advantages you've listed are marginal compared to the real-world constraints of the hardware, and cover up some boneheaded decisions that don't significantly impact the laptop's efficiency.

LarsDu887• 2 months ago

Right now, at this point in time, for applications like local AI and certain types of gaming, I would argue for most people having more VRAM is more useful than having faster VRAM. I personally now do more AI stuff and gaming on my M5 mac with its 24 GB shared (300 GB/s) RAM pool than my 12 GB 5070 Ti (900 GB/s).

Apple still lives in its walled garden and defends it vociferously, but I would argue they have made the correct design tradeoffs for their business.

curt152• 2 months ago

There are also latency and bandwidth benefits how they setup their RAM just from pure physics

What sort of physics? Dedicated GPUs achieve massive memory bandwidth without needing to put all of their memory on-die.

geerlingguy3• 2 months ago

Shorter PCB traces because of insane timing requirements for DDR5, GDDR7, and beyond; GPUs put the memory chips as close as possible surrounding the CPU die to reduce the latency and prevent timing/signaling issues.

But even there, the fastest AI accelerator GPUs are putting memory on die, and using chiplet designs, to get the memory closer and closer to the cores.

LarsDu887• 2 months ago

Simply physically moving the RAM closer to compute can make communication faster.

Ideally, RAM and compute should be combined. That's kind of what our brains do. We'll probably need more mature memristor technology to achieve that one day.

Dylan168073• 2 months ago

The fact that Apple can co-design their silicon such that the CPU and GPU can pull from the same pooled RAM is a major advantage over competitors.

Lots of laptops have integrated graphics. And many recent CPUs have strong integrated graphics. They're not doing anything special there. I don't understand why that gets so much attention.

The special thing they do is having very wide bandwidth on the higher end models, to a CPU with integrated graphics. That doesn't affect the Neo though.

warmwaffles• 2 months ago

Moore's Law approaching its end.

No it isn't. We are going more parallel and the transistor counts will continue to rise.

aaa_aaa• 2 months ago

No, it ended long ago.

Dylan168073• 2 months ago

Zen 5 has 8.3 billion transistors in a chiplet, Zen 1 had 4.8 billion per chiplet. If we add on some more to compensate for the separate I/O die then we're looking at basically one doubling over several generations and 7 years.

There's still significant gains to be had, but the exponential growth is really petering out.

yread• 2 months ago

SSD is also soldered for little performance advantage.

AnthonyMouse6• 2 months ago

You say "little" but the actual numbers seem to point to none. There are M.2 NVMe SSDs that are faster than Apple's soldered ones.

codedokode3• 2 months ago

It might give great financial performance advantage though.

jstanley2• 2 months ago

Moore's Law approaching its end.

People have been calling the top on Moore's Law for at least as long as I've been buying computers. (~20 years). I'll believe it when I see it.

GrumpyYoungMan• 2 months ago

We're already seeing it if most are incapable of recognizing it. The chip folks aren't doing ridiculously complicated things like https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductor-technology-roadmap in $30 billion+ fabs for the fun of it.

AnthonyMouse6• 2 months ago

The way to manufacture more efficient compute now is do things like put DRAM closer to the chip and even closer integration between CPU and GPU.

People have been hyping things like this for decades, but then it turns out the number of applications that need to frequently share data between a CPU and GPU at a faster speed than PCIe can handle are pretty uncommon. Meanwhile putting them closer together has some pretty significant real disadvantages, because then you're trying to deliver more power and dissipate more heat over a smaller area instead of putting more physical separation between the two largest loads in the machine.

Notice that high end PC GPUs are significantly faster than any of Apple's integrated GPUs, and that's why.

There are also latency and bandwidth benefits how they setup their RAM just from pure physics.

Soldering RAM has a modest latency advantage over SODIMMs at the most extreme timings and CAMM turns even that into basically nothing.

And chip manufacturing is moving towards chiplets where you have cores manufactured separately and then wired together at nanoscale level on top of a silicon interposer.

You're describing a move to less integration. They were originally on the same die, and the change has no real effect on modularity. The user doesn't even have to know that some Ryzen CPUs have a separate I/O die or more than one compute die, they all still fit into the same socket and are even interchangeable with the ones that have only a single die.

LarsDu887• 2 months ago

- For high end AI inference chips, DRAM already goes onto the interposer right next to the GPU to bring the bandwidth as high as possible. Apple will eventually do this for the exact same reasons. It's not just soldering RAM to a PCB - The chiplet technique and putting everything on an interposer is less integrated from the perspective of the chip manufacturer, but for the consumer -- folks who are going to buy Framework laptops, this is a far less integrated package. CPU, GPU and RAM will sit on the same interposer and purchased together as a unit with no upgrade or swap path for any component. This is not the same as simply soldering everything together on one PCB. The level of intergration is far higher

ben-schaaf• 2 months ago

The way to manufacture more efficient compute now is do things like put DRAM closer to the chip and even closer integration between CPU and GPU. The fact that Apple can co-design their silicon such that the CPU and GPU can pull from the same pooled RAM is a major advantage over competitors.
When you have CPU, GPU, and even DRAM sitting on the same "die

Apple has been really successful convincing people they've done something special here. Given how many people are so horribly misinformed about this I'd go so far as to call it false advertising.

No, the DRAM is not on the same die. It's on package. They're literally standard SK Hynix memory chips.

Yes technically there's a latency advantage, but comparing M1 to DDR5 desktop chips Apple actually has worse overall memory latency.

Every integrated graphics chip from Intel and AMD has had unified memory for the last 10+ years.

Compute itself is also not what makes the Apple chips get long battery life. Looking at tests under full load the M1 is significantly worse than the latest Intel or AMD, yet it still gets better battery life under normal usage. The efficiency does not come from compute but from a whole host of idle consumption optimisations Apple brought over from their phone chips.

veqq• 2 months ago

Indeed, on an HP Elitebook with a Ryzen 8840U I get about 20 hours of battery life on CachyOS (but downclocking a bit, with TLP) and the speed tests claim this is like a M2-3. For like $500 (before RAM went up...)

petermcneeley• 2 months ago

Isnt the reason to by a Framework (or similar) because you would not want to be part of Apple's ecosystem? Why would benchmarks even matter here?

464931685• 2 months ago

Framework needs an audience bigger than that because mostly people don't think in terms of ecosystem, they think in terms of 'does it do what I want for a cost I want to pay' and Apple wins on this.

AshamedCaptain3• 2 months ago

This is why no one buys Windows laptops I guess.

Tade0• 2 months ago

Only if they insist on expanding.

For now the audience of disgruntled former Apple customers or just repairability enthusiasts appears to be enough.

awakeasleep• 2 months ago

I don't like the comparison's fundamental assumption that they're addressing the same market.

If these are both addressing the same market then yes of course the Neo wins.

But I think actually one of these is for linux nerds and one is for the masses who barely understand what OS is running on it.

Analemma_• 2 months ago

There is a segment of Framework's customer base which is ride-or-die for Linux, but it's not their entire customer base: they still exist in a market where they need to compete on features and cost. Before the Neo, that wasn't too bad because they were more-or-less at parity with Apple on cost, close enough on polish, and better on repairability. But the Neo is just so cheap, and with Apple's level of polish it's really tough to compete with.

bigyabai10• 2 months ago

The Neo costs the same as an on-sale Macbook Air, but doesn't support Asahi Linux. If any Framework customers were tempted by Apple hardware, they would have bought the Air a year ago and probably look at the Neo like it's a Fischer-Price laptop. Cost and polish aren't going to push sales for this market segment.

Havoc2• 2 months ago

If you've got a device that is both cheaper and more performant then there is very little room for "different markets" arguments.

linux nerds

Is unfortunately not enough to carry a product

Framework (and windows flavour laptops) will need to respond to the neo. Something along qualcomm's snapdragon is probably the best bet

makeitdouble10• 2 months ago

Framework (and windows flavour laptops) will need to respond to the neo.

Framework doesn't even sell in half markets Apple is in (They only manage 40 or so countries [0]), they can't afford to fight race to the bottom battles.

The Neo exists because Apple has crazy economy of scale and a stranglehold on chip supply, smaller makers should be fighting on other grounds.

[0] https://knowledgebase.frame.work/what-countries-and-regions-...

pjmlp11• 2 months ago

Only on countries with strong Apple market presence.

The Neo price isn't that great deal in other countries.

Scarbutt• 2 months ago

You can replace Framework with Dell, HP, Lenovo in the title. Why pick on Framework?

fishgoesblub• 2 months ago

More views.

deng• 2 months ago

Well, if Apple killed it, Lenovo killed it even more. I recently was looking for a laptop for a student. The Lenovo E14 Gen7 is 800 Euros here in Germany (where prices are always higher, the MacBook Neo is 700 Euros), it has 16GB of RAM, 1TB SSD, a 2.8k IPS display, a Intel Ultra5 12core CPU, and it has a repairability score of 9/10 from ifixit. Framework doesn't even come close to that package.

joe_mamba2• 2 months ago

Same thought, as an owner of a similar Lenovo, that's top bang for the buck. Also, matte screen and hinge that opens 180 degrees is something the Neo and most Macs doesn't have.

Though I assume the Apple clientele is always different than those shopping for PCs, and doesn't care about specs, they just want MacOS and the Apple ecosystem, most likely they already have an iPhone or are planning to get one anyway so then a Macbook is the only thing on their radar. Those people aren't really shopping for PCs anyway unless they need some Windows/Linux exclusive apps like CAD/CAE.

But if you want to run linux and game then that Lenovo would be a good deal.

Similar to the Framework, it has its own niche clientele who values the company motto, tinkering and repairability aspects way more than the value proposition. Most likely they run Linux too.

There's something for everyone.

pseudosavant• 2 months ago

It is funny how Mac OS is a draw for some, when it is the main reason I don't use a Mac. Their hardware is excellent, but when I've tried using a Mac as my main machine, my productivity suffered. The only part of the Apple ecosystem I wish I could get on Windows is iMessage, and maybe FaceTime.

MBCook8• 2 months ago

I like Apple hardware. I like the Apple integration. I like the hardware quality. I LOVE the silence of the M series machines.

But for me you’re right. More than anything, I’m not giving up Mac OS. Despite Tahoe, which I do severely dislike, I’m still far happier using it daily than Windows or Linux.

Until that changes, or the hardware gets bad enough (it’s going in the other direction), I’m not leaving. I don’t even look at other options for my real computers.

“Toy” computers that I want to throw Linux or BSD or something on just to play with, yeah of course. But not what I want to use all day every day.

throw1234567891• 2 months ago

16GB of RAM? Good for browsing the internet and nothing else.

Zak4• 2 months ago

Framework is definitely premium-priced, but I don't think most people are cross-shopping the Framework 12 (a 12" convertible tablet) and the Thinkpad E14 (a 14" dedicated laptop).

NooneAtAll3• 2 months ago

so it's competing with Framework 14?

registeredcorn2• 2 months ago

and it has a repairability score of 9/10 from ifixit

Do you mean a 6/10? The only score I saw for the neo on iFixIt is here: https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-r...

I checked the "Laptop repairability scores" page and the Neo doesn't appear to be listed. https://www.ifixit.com/repairability/laptop-repairability-sc...

jerlam3• 2 months ago

They mean the Lenovo laptop has a 9/10 repairability, not the Apple Neo.

hmstx• 2 months ago

Dammit. I got an IdeaPad of similar price in december 2024. It didn't have one of the fancier displays from the era but still a decent option, it has 16Gb and I thought I'd try a Ryzen mobile thing that time. Wish I'd gone for the Thinkpad E series had I known about it then : that lower-end IdeaPad feels like trash.

SSD IO is sluggish, fans always spin when plugged in, audio crackles if I so much as scroll a page while a youtube video is playing, the keyboard might be the worst I've touched in many, many years, the 3.5mm audio jack wore out into intermittent connectivity within a couple of months. At least the display still looks good. Went through the windows optimization motions with it too. My x230 with an i5 still has lower and more stable DPC latency and has remained my DJ laptop.

pjmlp11• 2 months ago

This is what I keep telling, Neo outside US isn't a good deal, given the price/hardware combo.

whimblepop2• 2 months ago

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers.

But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The latest laptops from Framework meet all of those requirements, and I'm excited to buy one after I've saved up enough money. I've missed Plasma for a long time. At the same time, I wouldn't even consider a MacBook Neo.

joe_mamba2• 2 months ago

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance.

DHH showed the Framework laptops with latest Intel Panther Lake SoCs having similar battery life to AS Macs (~14 hours) under Omarchy linux while gaming benchmarks put their iGPUs in line or better than AMD's Ryzne SoCs at gaming.

The era of long battery life being the USP feature exclusive to Macbooks is slowly going away, especially if AMD pulls a similar move and heats up the competition.

Once the chip shortage from AI datacenters bubble pops, we could see even better SoCs from Intel, AMD, and even Qualcomm and Nvidia could join the ARM laptop battle in a serious way.

X86_amd64 + Linux let's goooo!

criddell2• 2 months ago

Now they need to work on a fanless option. It would be nice to have at least one SKU be a silent machine with no moving parts.

sheepscreek2• 2 months ago

The (memory) chip shortage saga is not going away for a few years. Most fabs are going to be capacity starved. Apple will happily pony up billions to TSMC to set up a new plant in exchange for exclusive capacity. No other laptop manufacturer can do this. This will put them in an even more advantageous position. In all honesty, the Neo couldn’t have arrived at a better time for them.

tobinfricke• 2 months ago

Is it feasible to run Linux on the Apple hardware? Seems like that could meet your requirements, except possibly "align with my values." I saw https://asahilinux.org/ but don't know how usable it is, or whether the long battery life and hardware support is preserved.

benoau6• 2 months ago

Every generation of Mac has its own requirements that Asahi has to support through a painstaking process of reverse-engineering, so it lags behind quite a bit. Realistically it will probably be 2030 before you can use it on any current-generation Mac.

whimblepop2• 2 months ago

I love the Asahi project and I'll probably keep my oldest M-series Mac around to continue to play with Asahi. But even for the oldest Macs it supports, the feature list is not quite complete. The way Apple does a lot of things is bespoke and involves a different division of labor between firmware and operating system than conventional UEFI systems. It's hard to support. I don't want to be required to wait years for features like full support for Thunderbolt docks, and I also want to give my money to a company that proactively supports Linux (e.g., sending hardware to kernel developers, FreeDesktop graphics driver developers, DE maintainers, and distro maintainers in advance of the release of new products) rather than always buying used or giving my money to a company that merely tolerates Linux support.

Again, I love the ambition of the Asahi project and what they've done. They're impressive hackers, and thousands of people will doubtless get years of happy Linux life out of their work— maybe including me! I have no complaints for them, and no wishlist I want to bring to them. In fact, I think maybe I should send them a donation or a kind email or both upon their next release.

But I want to give the bulk of my financial support to a computer vendor who offers me first-class, day-1 support for software environments that make me feel happy and respected. The Asahi team can't turn Apple into that by themselves.

taude4• 2 months ago

i've tried getting linux to run on a 2018 MB Pro (intel/nvidia based). Even after a ton of research and installing a couple "compatible-ish" distros, I couldn't get it to work, and gave up. And then further reading suggested I was always going to live with a semi-bricked machine. I just wanted a simple writing and couch surfing laptop. But the version of MacOs running on that old hardware is so slugish, it's painful.

866-RON-0-FEZ4• 2 months ago

M-series MacBooks stink, literally. [1]

My newest MacBook reeks of strong adhesive from the vents.

Googling revealed hundreds of similar complaints, it's allegedly a solvent they use, perhaps flux. I thought it was the battery.

Many claim "they all smell like that". Some (insane) people like the smell, I assume they sniffed glue as kids.

Unfortunately it's the last one I buy. I won't tolerate a smelly laptop.

[1] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/unpleasant-solvent-like...

bb88• 2 months ago

Is that true with the mac book airs? My understanding is that they're completely sealed, and they use the case as a heat spreader.

as1992• 2 months ago

Yeah if your Macbook smells like that you need to be contacting Apple. That's obviously a manufacturing flaw. I've had multiple M series Mac pros from M1 up M5 and none of them have ever had an unpleasant smell.

Rebelgecko3• 2 months ago

Can you compare/contrast with the steam deck vent smell?

bhouston3• 2 months ago

M-series MacBooks stink

I've been around a lot of modern MacBooks both in my company and I've also owned a bunch, none of them stunk.

I think this is a rare issue. At least it is lower than 1/20, if not much much lower.

culopatin4• 2 months ago

A few*. I have 4 at home and none smell

JoeBOFH• 2 months ago

Reminds me of when Dell laptops started smelling like cat urine. Dell denied it for a long time then admitted it was an issue with the manufacturing process. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-24741832

znpy• 2 months ago

weird, we have around 150-160 macbook pros (anything m3/m4/m5) in the office and i never smelled that

KPGv2• 2 months ago

I have an M1 Pro and have no idea what you're talking about.

donmcronald• 2 months ago

My Mac Mini M4 has a distasteful smell when I pin in with AI prompts. And MacOS isn’t super great either. The Remote Desktop options suck and if I leave mine running for a week it can’t function without a reboot.

The tech industry might actually be worse than it was 20 years ago.

jacknews• 2 months ago

There's always something with apple, from the breaking keyboards, scratched screens, antenna-gate, cracking gpu solder, ...

The comparison itself seems moot, comparing a consumer-grade consumable device built out of a phone, to a more sustainable, modular, upgrade-able device.

jujube3• 2 months ago

You're not supposed to use it as a urinal.

fortran77• 2 months ago

I love Windows Arm. My latest machine, an Asus Zenbook A16 is great. 18 core Snapdragon X2 extreme, 48 GB of memory, and OLED screen--all for $1699. It feels very fast, faster than my 24-core Xeon desktop (though benchmarks would put my Xeon ahead) and has great "all-day" battery life.

You can remove the screws on the bottom and replace the battery (which is screwed in, too, no glue to peel) or the M.2 NVME which is enough "servicability" for me....

embedding-shape• 2 months ago

You should try Linux on it someday, to really see what the CPU can do, night and day difference :)

With that said, I'd probably prefer a Windows laptop over a MacBook too, their hardware is great, but the software is just so awful. But whatever you do, don't get Microsoft's hardware, I got a Surface Pro 8 some years ago and throughout my ~25 years of computing I've never had a worse laptop, and just 2-3 weeks after the warranty went out, the entire machine bricked itself during an update and it no longer boots at all, basically threw 1500 EUR into the sea with nothing to show for it.

throwaway8943455• 2 months ago

I would happily jump ship for any competitor that offers solid AI inference benchmarks at a competitive power efficiency, but as far as I can tell Apple owns that market by a pretty big margin. I’m sure someone will point out if I’m wrong.

pyrophane• 2 months ago

I just have a desktop at home that I run inference off of. It is a great setup and I don't find myself wanting to inference models directly on my laptop.

topaz05• 2 months ago

Humans own inference power efficiency by a much bigger margin

nl3• 2 months ago

Ryzen AI are competitive with Macs in absolute and power efficiency terms. There is a Framework 13 with them I believe.

saidnooneever2• 2 months ago

battery life is not only factor of the laptop. having moved from Linux (ran gentoo quite minimal...) to freeBSD default install makes my laptop last about twice or thrice as long.

the art of idle software and efficient energy consumption is not landed in windows and Linux takes too much work..

mac does it not too bad + having good batteries, but thats not to say a laptop with a lesser battery should be trashed by a bad OS.

mobile operating systems are usually much more tuned to being good with battery life. I suppose Linux and perhaps windows do not seem to have laptops as main target even for 'desktop' distros or versions.

schaefer• 2 months ago

having moved from Linux ... to freeBSD default install makes my laptop last about twice or thrice as long.

I’ve literally never heard this from anyone before, and I have to admit, I’m curious enough to try it for myself.

The last time I tried FreeBSD was 2001.

regexorcist6• 2 months ago

I'm constantly surprised by just how bad macOS is as a Linux user. I currently have to deal with it sometimes as I run my local LLM server on it and it's painful. That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

commandersaki2• 2 months ago

Funny it’s the opposite for me. What if I want to switch between desktops of multiple users; easy with fast user switching, not really a thing in Linux (yeah I’m sure it can be hacked up, but bleh).

simonsan• 2 months ago

I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

Until you need to repair something or change some hardware ... Which is something the author of the article totally neglects, IMHO.

runeks• 2 months ago

That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

I'm considering going this way on my M1 MBP. Is there anything you miss wrt. hardware compatibility?

mannanj• 2 months ago

Is it possible to use M1's efficiency on Linux, i.e. is battery life comparable for you on Linux vs Mac?

kwdev• 2 months ago

This. Working with a mac again feels so limiting and the amount of stupid UX is actively hurting my productivity. Sure can be just practice, but the ability to customize my Linux machine exactly to how I like to work was so powerful.

There are also what I would call bugs that I don't understand how they are a thing. Like how window/desktop switching is slow to change app focus.

pjmlp11• 2 months ago

The first error is assuming all UNIXes are Linux distros.

Which is what many folks buying Apple laptops do.

An BSD, Aix, Solaris user would face similar problems.

nl3• 2 months ago

I think the Framework 13 is something that completes reasonably with a MacBook Pro.

I don't have one but would consider a Ryzen AI based one instead of a MBP. The Intel based ones have upgradable RAM and Mac-competetive battery life on Linux. The shared RAM on the Ryzen is useful for local AI though.

SOLAR_FIELDS• 2 months ago

The thing about the framework 12 is that they are giving you an open device that is meant to be upgraded. The value of that is different to everyone, but to place it side by side hardware wise and try to compare it as if it is equivalent on the software side to the closed source bullshit Apple has on offer feels at the very least a false equivalency

JKCalhoun• 2 months ago

That's cool. Can I upgrade the display? That seemed to be a very weak point for the Framework 12 (for me anyway).

sfjailbird• 2 months ago

It's funny how Apple has come full circle. Back in the 90s, when they were in deep crisis (before the second coming of Jobs), it was almost conventional wisdom that they should just stop selling hardware, and focus on their superior software. And here we are today when a lot of people lust for the hardware, but just can't deal with MacOS.

joxdosba• 2 months ago

And here we are today when a lot of people lust for the hardware, but just can't deal with MacOS

Are there actually a lot of such people? Linux-on-desktop users are certainly loud, but also extremely uncommon.

insane_dreamer• 2 months ago

I switch between Linux and MacOS on a daily basis, and have been running Linux since Ubuntu Warty Warthog, and I don't get why people don't like MacOS. It's a fine OS and in some ways superior to Linux. And the Mac hardware is second to none. Power management alone is much better than Linux.

markus_zhang• 2 months ago

I’m so sad that Apple continues to push out excellent hardware with mediocre software.

Wish Asahi to be more successful.

oliver66677• 1 month ago

So it's reasonable to ask $300 extra dollar (on top of $500) for using the free linux over macOS? That must be a joke.

robspairpears• 2 months ago

Bought the Framework 12 as my personal daily driver (limited hobby projects, Obsidian, light browsing) and for the hardware to grow with my use cases.

So even if I could get more bang for my buck with a Neo (yeah, I could), the tinkerability and repairability win over raw specs for what I actually use it for. Did I pay more for a less polished, less powerful machine? Yep. Is it enjoyable to use and fully capable of meeting my requirements? Yep.

Came to bikeshed but the video was more nuanced and fair than this title.

gorjusborg• 2 months ago

Came to bikeshed but the video was more nuanced and fair than this title.

Same here. It isn't hard to justify buying something like the Framework 12 in principle.

I have bought multiple Framework computers and I continue to be a fan, not because it is the best in any single category. It is because I want computers to be bought and sold in the vision that the Framework folks seem to have.

When I purchase a Framework I'm not purchasing a single computer. I'm buying a laptop-of-Theseus that I can continue to use throughout the future. When parts get broken, or a fancy new part is better, I buy the parts and upgrade it rather than buy a whole new device.

I also run an operating system that is publicly developed and available.

You won't see these things on a spec sheet or influencer demo.

fivetomidnight2• 2 months ago

You could get 4 Lenovo X280 if you just need an overpowered notepad.

_hyn33• 2 months ago

Yeah, or a Macbook Neo! No need to disparage other people's use cases.

ryukoposting2• 2 months ago

I've never bought a new laptop in my life, and I have a Framework 13 Pro on preorder because it's the only new laptop I will ever need to buy.

When I did my research, I found that Framework costs more than the competition across the entire stack, but it's by a fixed amount, $150 give or take. That's maybe a 7% premium for a high-end laptop, but a 30% premium at the low end. Obviously the price gap vs a Neo is even wider.

The question is whether that price gap arises from a fixed cost inherent to better product design, or if it's just the cost of Framework's smaller scale. I tend to think it's the latter.

pdimitar8• 2 months ago

That's completely fair and that would be my process exactly, if not for one thing -- fan noise.

I really _hate_ laptop fan noises. That's why a Macbook Neo will win for me when I get to travel more. Hopefully the world will produce a good competition for it in the meantime.

awkwardpotato• 2 months ago

This is the same reason I bought my Framework 13. For the same price/less could I have bought a nice MacBook? Yes, but Framework's mission is something I wanted to support and it's an exciting product. I'm still very happy with my purchase.

myself248• 2 months ago

Precisely this. It's not the fastest machine, but it's not the slowest, and that's more than adequate for other factors to tip the scale.

And I VERY much want to encourage this approach. Laptops COULD be as modular as desktops, and they've proven it with a real machine, not a toy, not a gimmick, not a compliance-car. A genuinely useful piece of hardware that I've been daily-driving for almost 2 years now.

I very much believe in putting my money where my mouth is.

Would I go back to another laptop? Well, if someone else starts making motherboards that'll drop into this chassis, I'd consider it...

ksec2• 2 months ago

repairability

I would actually rate Neo having higher repairability. It is simply much better design and built even from a repair point of view. Speaker, Keyboard and Battery are the most common thing for repairing. It is only RAM and SSD that is better, but that is a different set of trade offs with performance and battery usage compromise.

bigyabai10• 2 months ago

Speaker, Keyboard and Battery are the most common thing for repairing

All of which are famously nightmarish repairs on Macbooks, and line-replacable on Frameworks.

I think you're alone in this regard, I'd trust the Framework 8 days out of the week.

benoau6• 2 months ago

As nice as Apple's hardware is it's all undermined by who they are as a company, intentionally limiting their devices more and more while they relentlessly argue in courts and to regulators that we owe them more and more for using our devices.

Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. Work can buy them for me but I won't spend my money on a platform like that anymore.

Depending on how their Supreme Court argument goes in a few weeks I will stop buying an iPhone too, if they establish the precedent that any method of paying for Netflix deserves a $5/month fee then they will leverage that to extract the same fee everywhere else.

tencentshill• 2 months ago

When is reasonable to stop supporting a platform that only hinders the user experience? Should they have supported PPC emulation forever? x86 is on the way out in for most consumer devices. Apple is usually a bit early to drop technologies, but still acknowledges and fixes real mistakes (USB-C-only laptops and the associated keyboards) when they impact customer experience.

jbm2• 2 months ago

Should they have supported PPC emulation forever

Yes.

pdimitar8• 2 months ago

x86 is on the way out in for most consumer devices.

Define "consumer devices"? I am holding on to my AMD Ryzen machines until they literally fall dead. I have no complaints from them. Maybe some modern or even next-gen ARM CPUs will be even better on Linux but I don't think we are quite there yet.

x86_64 is here to stay for a long time still.

But maybe you literally meant x86 as in the 32-bit CPU arch? If so, I'd mostly agree but not quite; they could be used in low-power micro-PCs for a long time still as well.

makeitdouble10• 2 months ago

When is reasonable to stop supporting a platform that only hinders the user experience?

When people who care about it can carry on the torch.

Dropping support wouldn't matter if anyone outside of Apple could keep it alive instead, or if Rosetta 2 users could stay on the last supported OS and keep their devices secured through community patches etc.

simondotau5• 2 months ago

USB-C-only laptops

I think it's hilarious that Apple managed to get criticised for being both too early AND too late with USB-C.

Danox3• 2 months ago

Apple moved ahead with thunderbolt five should they keep thunderbolt four? Moving to thunderbolt five is necessary if you want to drive more information to a 5K or 6k monitor or any other peripheral.

cloverich2• 2 months ago

The other day i saw a slick scifi movie and really liked the interface in one of the random background terminals. I thought id recreate a working version of it. I snapped a screenshot on my iphone where i was watching, but lo it was blacked out? Same after several attempts. Ugh fine, go to my macbook, fire up netflix in a browser there, screenshot from desktop. Nope. Still blacked out.

Its not just older architecture we are losing out on.

nozzlegear4• 2 months ago

Is this just "Person discovers DRM, c. 2026" dressed up as a complaint about Apple?

cardanome• 2 months ago

That is all true but even as a hardcore Linux and Thinkpad user, I have to admit it is a hard sell when no one can offer the quality of Apple.

Apple is the only hardware company where you can buy a product and it is good hardware wise. Sure other companies have flagship offerings but with apple you get a really good base model.

And that is where it breaks down for me. Pay 20% more for freedom? Yes, absolutely. But pay more for much worse? Yeah, not many people are going to be so idealistic.

I don't know why no one else can produce a laptop with decent battery life with an near silent fan and good display and overall great production quality. Yes, it is much easier when you are as big as apple and can rely on economics of scale but that doesn't totally explain the lack of quality when it comes to the competition.

fragmede• 2 months ago

And that device is the Lenovo Chromebook Plus 14 OLED. The paper specs are great, all that's required is to turn it into a fully fleged Linux laptop and get rid of ChromeOS and core boot entirely. I just got hibernate working on it last night, wifi, sleep and sound and the fingerprint sensor works. There's some more polish and tuning to be done, but this'll be the machine I move off my apple silicon laptop for.

Apple hardware is only perfect when looked at through rose tinted glasses. The whole butterfly keyboard issue should be enough to indight them from being seen as perfect with hardware. There's a reason Applecare exists, and it's not just because of accidental spills.

trouve_search3• 2 months ago

I've been using an asus zenbook 14 OLED with linux. Compatibility is great.

The screen blows apple out completely. It's clearly, obviously better. The fan noise and battery life are worse than Apple. The keyboard feels better to type on, the trackpad is slightly worse, but not enough to annoy me.

The new Pop OS cosmic is a very fun OS concept for laptops with the autotiling workspaces as a fundamental primitive.

makeitdouble10• 2 months ago

you get a really good base model.

Why does it matter to _you_ in particular that the base model is good ?

For a decade buying macs I never got the base model, I switched to the Asus ROG series and a Surface Pro, and again I'mm not on the base model of either.

I get that MacBooks are very good volume purchases and excellent value for those right in the target, but IMHO that's not the people writing in this thread.

I'm also not a fan of the "winner takes it all" view, customers should care about their very specific needs and do their research, it shouldn't matter that some product matches 80% of other people's needs if it doesn't fit them.

fpoling• 2 months ago

ThinkPad X1 from 2 years ago was very solid and under Fedora everything but camera worked out of the box. And for camera issue I had to blame myself for not checking details of a specific model as Lenovo was offering at that time fully-Linux compatible model. It took about one and halve year before Linux fully supported it. And I already upgraded SSD on it which took less than 10 minutes.

The only complain is bad battery life. With several VMs running mostly idle it doesn’t lasts even two hours. But then I used beefy MacBook M2 at my previous work and with VMs it lasted only 4 hours.

ramijames• 2 months ago

I think that people aren't seeing what Apple is doing through the lens of efficiency, and the wider impact that has on their software and hardware.

Them not having to support 30+ year old software means that they can be more nimble and make better hardware choices.

Look at the mess that Microsoft has made for itself by setting the requirement that software made in the 90s must still run on modern OSs and hardware. It's bonkers and is slowly killing the company.

pepperoni_pizza2• 2 months ago

This is a common dilemma.

Apple's phones and laptop are 100 % the best in the market, but Apple is a terrible evil company - the walled garden stuff, the "you don't really own your device" stuff, the normalization of enshittification (removing headphone jack, nonreplaceable glued batteries, not giving charger with $1000 laptop, ...) that other manufacturers followed, the gold statue Cook gave Trump as a bribe.

But not just Apple. Teslas are the best electric cars on the market - but Musk got Trump elected, literally killed millions of people with his DOGE and did Sieg Heil on stage (twice, so we don't miss it). Or Garmin - objectively the best sport and adventure watches on the market, but evil anti-consumer planned obsolescence policies. You could go on.

I guess the choice is, am I willing to "suffer" (as much as using inferior product is suffering anyway) to not support these people? Or is my comfort mire important than doing the right thing?

And I'm not just being preachy - I have aging M1 macbook, aging Garmin watch and an aging ICE car and I spend few last months pondering. It's easy to prioritize comfort. Or I'm just being a whiny bitch.

(Funnily enough, for phones the dilemma really isn't there - you have just choice of Apple or Google having all your data and no matter how bad Apple is, Google is orders of magnitude worse.)

hvb2• 2 months ago

I don't know why no one else can produce a laptop with decent battery life with an near silent fan and good display and overall great production quality.

Isn't that the whole reason why Apple is the company it is? Steve Jobs wanted to control the software AND the hardware. That hasn't changed, they're still the only one really. That does get you some benefits

rangestransform• 2 months ago

Forcing developers off of Rosetta 2 is a pro-consumer move because it gives the ultimate incentive for developers to modernize. I don’t want to use Lightroom (replace with whatever app is part of your workflow) through x86 emulation, I want Apple to bitch slap Adobe into porting it to native. Microsoft will be forced to expend resources to support x86 emulation for all of eternity.

Apple throwing their weight around in a pro-consumer way (Rosetta, ask app not to track) is why I use their devices

no-name-here• 2 months ago

1. A ton of software won't get updated even with customers losing access to stuff they bought in the Apple app store. I've been through this multiple times with Apple where existing software is just suddenly unavailable to those who’d installed it.

2. Consumers losing the choice to use apps they bought or downloaded is not pro-consumer (if they want to continue getting OS security patches etc). As you said, it's a conscious choice by Apple to cause customers to lose access to software they'd bought etc, as Microsoft’s approach allows us to still use software from multiple decades ago.

(I’d gotten a piece of paid software from the iOS + iPad app store in 2011. I lost access a few years later during another Apple change.)

3. However, I think you're right that we will see more and more companies cause customers to lose access to existing software, features, etc that customers had bought, but similarly frame it as a good thing, forcing ‘modernization’, etc.

shantara• 2 months ago

Apple dropping 32-bit support resulted in me losing access to 3/4 of my Mac Steam library. Not every piece of software is built with an endless update treadmill in mind, no matter how much Apple would like to force the developers into one with their breaking changes and developer program subscription.

This would result in people losing access to a bunch of software just so Apple could shrug and shift the blame elsewhere. Because in the mind of an Apple fan, nothing is ever Apple’s fault.

miyoji• 2 months ago

I want Apple to bitch slap Adobe into porting it to native. Microsoft will be forced to expend resources to support x86 emulation for all of eternity.

I don't understand how you can say that Apple is more pro-consumer than Microsoft here, considering that Microsoft guarantees that no matter whether the vendor is unwilling, out of business, dead, or otherwise unavailable, you can still run your software. Apple says you need to go find someone to put tens to hundreds of man-hours into updating software from god-knows-when, and if you can't do that, you can just go fuck yourself.

You say yourself, Microsoft is willing to put in the work to ensure that their customers will be able to run their binaries forever. Apple spits in your face and you thank them for it.

daneel_w• 2 months ago

But Rosetta was always meant to be just a temporary compatibility bridge. Surely you too would consider it kind of crazy if they were today, still, pouring time into maintaining Rosetta 1 for people wanting to run PPC software on macOS/x86. The first Arm build of macOS is now 6 years old, and when Rosetta 2 is ultimately removed from macOS in late 2027 it will have been available to us for close to 8 years. That's a pretty generous amount of time given to us to move forward.

functionmouse• 2 months ago

The work is done. Why not just leave it in? Or FOSS it so the community maintains it, like WINE?

nottorp2• 2 months ago

... and this is how Apple proves it doesn't give a shit about gaming on their platform again ...

sgjohnson• 2 months ago

Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software.

This is the 3rd time this has happened in roughly 2 decades by the way.

ppc/ppc64 -> x86_64 x86_64 -> x64 only x64 -> arm64

I much prefer Apple just forcing the developers to update their apps. Perhaps it’s just me though.

Danox3• 2 months ago

Continue to support obsolete hardware just cause doesn’t make any sense. Apple had to move on just like they had to move away from Motorola, IBM and Intel. Apple also had to move away from AMD and Nvidia, Broadcom, and probably Qualcomm, and with the current memory crisis, Apple may have to take memory in house too. Many of the moves were done not because they wanted to, but because they had to.

cmrdporcupine• 2 months ago

Right, I mean, like Jeff's content but it sort of felt like he was metaphorically "punching down" in this video.

Of course Apple can make a relatively cheap mass produced device that can outcompete on price / spec -- they've been making iPads for almost two decades now. They just threw a keyboard on one and changed the bootloader to boot OSX. Good for them. 20 years of R&D paid off for one of the largest and most valued and profitable companies in the world.

If I want a relatively cheap machine I can actually run Linux (or for other people, Windows) on, or can upgrade or repair... Apple is not in the running.

Luker88• 2 months ago

Framework was never the best hardware given a fixed budget, but it is true that Apple prices have become more competitive in the latest releases.

Still, few do the math of upgrading just the motherboard after a couple of years, vs buying a new laptop.

Framework laptops have been retrocompatible for the last 6 years.

worthless-trash• 2 months ago

Try upgrading your macbook neo..

roughly• 2 months ago

A truck will always be a worse car than a car, the question is do you need a car or a truck? If you need a car, get a Neo, if you need a truck, get a Framework. They’re not competing past that initial question.

drnick1• 2 months ago

The point of the Framework is to run Linux, and not to be part of Apple's ecosystem. I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission, report telemetry to Apple, upload anything to any "cloud" or request that I log into something. If you don't think this is a big deal, wait until an age or identity verification law is passed somewhere, and Apple will enforce it against your will, on the computer that you bought and thought that you owned.

IshKebab• 2 months ago

That's not the only point of Framework. It also has to be a good laptop, and priced well enough that its repair/upgrade story actually makes sense.

teaearlgraycold• 2 months ago

I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission

Does this happen on MacOS? I don’t think I’ve experienced this.

kevinrineer• 2 months ago

For an MDM managed computer (JAMF I know for sure), it can be configured that way per a company policy. I am not 100% sure of the answer for a computer not managed by JAMF as I have not experienced a forced update while using a non-MDM managed Mac in ~1.5 years of using a pre-owned M1.

boobsbr• 2 months ago

I have a 2015 Air running El Capitain, never updated itself.

MBCook8• 2 months ago

No.

They opt you in to it. Possibly repeatedly. But you’re never fully forced.

I realize that’s far from ideal, but as a home user you do have control still.

Staying updated is part of “the Apple way”. If you don’t like it, you’re in for a fight until your hardware loses update support.

commandersaki2• 2 months ago

Imagined issues.

tumult• 2 months ago

They did once try forcing macOS 12 users to update to macOS 14, without asking for permission, and overriding any security prompts: https://eclecticlight.co/2024/02/12/can-you-avoid-a-forced-u...

This happened to me. I was able to notice it from network activity lights and stop it by disconnecting the network. Other people I know weren't so lucky.

OJFord3• 2 months ago

The point of the Framework is to run Linux

Until recently they've been almost as second-class-Linux-to-Windows as say Dell, but perhaps you just meant 'non-macOS'?

(For example, I'm currently struggling to get my early-days pre-ordered 11th gen Intel BIOS updated from v3.07 without a) the official Windows updater; b) modifying the supplied firmware on the instruction of AI or stranger third-parties in unmerged PRs/GH issues.)

rmunn• 2 months ago

I'm just one datapoint, but my Framework 16 (bought a little over a year ago with no OS, has only ever had Linux installed on it) has never given me trouble with firmware updates. I've updated the BIOS twice, and other firmware, all through `fwupdmgr` with no issues. I bought the AMD chip rather than Intel, it's possible that that was why I had no issues, but I don't actually know.

herewulf• 2 months ago

Absolutely, and this is also a big deal for longevity of your purchase. I have an iMac from 2012 and it's a beautiful piece of reliable hardware, with a beautiful screen. However, the software is stuck on some version of macOS from years ago and so more and more applications are refusing to install. It's on life support with Firefox ESR and MacPorts (just recently — was on Homebrew). And it works fine for browsing and some light FOSS gaming. Not if Apple had their way though! They think it ought to be in the dump and I should have bought something else by now.

Well, I have a Framework 13 also, running Linux, and despite the hardware being from 2022, it's all current software. And it will continue to be, practically as long as I wish it.

So, yes, if we want to talk about value (like the author of the article), where is the value when some capricious corporation decides when you are done with your computer?

rjrjrjrj6• 2 months ago

I have an iMac from 2012
Well, I have a Framework 13 also, running Linux, and despite the hardware being from 2022

Please be sure to add a comment in 2036 on how your Framework/Linux experience worked out.

ildon• 2 months ago

While I don't dispute that Apple might or might not exploit its users via software, I believe some more credit is due to a company that can produce a piece of hardware like a personal computer that runs so smoothly after 14 years that its owner complains that more software updates should still be shipped to the device. I do not know of any other device that I could but as a consumer that would last that long. The framework laptops might be an exception, but they most definitely still need to prove it.

einsteinx2• 2 months ago

That iMac should easily run Linux, why not install it? Also I don’t know what else to call hardware that’s still working great 14 years later except for longevity…

make3• 2 months ago

this can't be their only market proposition (and is not), because the vast majority of anyone not in CS or IT doesn't care about this, or even know it's a thing

starkparker3• 2 months ago

it remains my pet peeve that the 12 and 13 didn't find a clever way to share a mainboard by ditching the expansion cards on one side and just exposing the USBC ports. I would've sacrificed a lot to be able to just move my mainboard intact to another chassis if I needed the features. (which is exactly what I'll be doing with the 13 Pro, and IMO should've been a top goal of the 12)

baq2• 2 months ago

The title should read 'it's hard to justify buying any other laptop than the Neo in the sub $1000 space'. It's an absolute unit of a computer; the only more revolutionary box would be the M1 Air (or the original Air. maybe. my vote is on the M1.)

rjrjrjrj6• 2 months ago

The original Air was not good.

I think you mean the second gen Air (SSD-only, c2010), which was an incredible combination of price, performance, and usability.

erelong• 2 months ago

Oh man I couldn't imagine comparing Framework / 12 to Apple / Neo: apples and oranges

I would never bother with Apple's locked down proprietary software / hardware "ecosystem"

For me it's hard justifying buying an Apple Neo ever basically as a contrary article

Asmod4n• 2 months ago

The framework 12 is the ideal couch device for a developer, in ultra power saving mode it’s good enough for most websites, and it having a quickly getting hot 13th gen intel cpu means you also got a dev machine on the low end spectrum, not a vm, but an actual piece of hardware a typical user might have and not some 32 thread 64 gb monster

abraxas• 2 months ago

I'm sorry but sometimes performance is not everything. Apple silicon - great except you are now in the Apple walled garden with all the consequences of it. Not to mention perpetually subpar developer experience without the rich Linux/Docker ecosystem. Yes, I know it is getting better but for developers there are still many warts. We just retired the last OSX laptops from my dev team because they were unproductive trying to work around some Docker limitations on OSX/Apple silicon.

moralestapia• 2 months ago

and is more repairable and upgradeable

Oh no, that didn't matter to anyone[1], who would've thought!

Meanwhile AAPL goes brrr ...

It's sad because by the time other laptop manufacturers understand what people really want, Apple will have a 20 year lead on them. Hard to catch up with that.

1: Ok, 0.01% of consumers is not exactly "anyone" but close.

andrepd3• 2 months ago

I sincerely don't get the point of a post like this. You buy a Framework for repairability, flawless Linux support, ability to tinker, etc. Yes it would be extra nice if on top of everything it also had a faster CPU and a higher-density screen for cheaper than the aggressively priced entry model of corporation with the literal deepest pockets in the world. But is that a realistic complaint? I swear I don't get it.

solomonb• 2 months ago

I would be interested in hearing from framework users who have gone through upgrade cycles on their laptops. General experiences with the process but also the costs.

I had the first gen framework but had to return it to my old employer so I never went through an upgrade cycle.

Also, this may be specific to the first generation but I had terrible battery life and overheating issues. If that carried over through upgrade cycles I would be pretty bummed out.

nickjj• 2 months ago

You can get a lot of laptop in the ~$700 range if you look beyond Apple and Framework.

I picked up a Nimo N155 for $570 back in September 2025. Today it's $700 due to RAM prices. Its specs are:

15" 1080p IPS display, AMD Ryzen 7 6800H (8 cores / 16 threads), 32 GB of DDR5 RAM, 1 TB NVME SSD with an iGPU Radeon 680M that can use up to 8 GB of memory all wrapped up into a metal case that weighs less than a MBP. It has a nice feeling backlight keyboard and a pretty good track pad. It comes with Windows 11 but it's all compatible with Linux too. Also it comes with a 2 year manufacturer's warranty.

I've been using it quite a bit since I picked it up. Been running Arch Linux on it since day 1 with niri. It's really solid IMO.

antisthenes• 2 months ago

It's insane we've somehow come back to 8GB RAM laptops in 2026.

I have an old circa ~2012 era Dell Latitude Laptop with 16GB in it. While it may not be powerful enough to play modern games or anything and may not run Win 11 (although why would you?), it's certainly served me well for at least a full decade.

arikrahman• 2 months ago

They are different types of innovations, but Framework will be recurring excitment when your Godson gets to switch to a brand spanking new component.

carlosjobim2• 2 months ago

I hate this talk of "justify". Does everybody think they've become an accountant now? Buy your nephew both computers. Or buy the one he prefers. Or buy the one you prefer.

People are allowed to own several computers. They are allowed to own several phones. They are allowed to install several web browsers and several text editors.

Why are hackers agonizing so much about small and meaningless decisions, which they don't even have to take? You don't have to pick one or the other.

PhilipRoman• 2 months ago

Because it costs money? Believe it or not, most places don't pay you 6 digit salaries for shuffling around YAML.

carlosjobim2• 2 months ago

"6 digit salaries" is the second most common hacker trope after "having to justify". You don't need a six digit salary to purchase two laptops.

xixixao• 2 months ago

If Apple could give away a macbook neo to students, locked to the one individual student somehow, for free! they would still make money on it in the long run through the subsequent purchases over the person’s lifetime.

ZiiS• 2 months ago

If a “repairable” laptop is in any way comparable to a high-volume model from the most successful laptop maker in history; one that is currently upending the whole industry and backed by an extra-generous education discount funded by huge cash reserves and a long-term strategy; then Framework has succeeded beyond its wildest dreams.

francisofascii• 2 months ago

Next up...It's hard to justify buying a refundable airline ticket.

mahdi7d1• 2 months ago

It's funny how people talk about macbook neo being the cheapest option that gives you access to macos (If my brain isn't fried that was one of the points mentioned in the video) cause when I was checking macbook neo's price a couple of weeks ago I almost did hit the purchase button then I remembered I can't use macbook and I'm too used to my arch config to change.

schmiddim• 2 months ago

I wait for the day that Linux runs on newer Apple Silicon Hardware.

Lammy• 2 months ago

I had already put both laptops through my benchmark gauntlet

Who needs to justify it? I make good money, fell in love with the Framework 12 at first sight, maxed it out with 64GiB RAM and 2TB SSD, and never even thought about “comparing” it to other companies' machines before buying. Something about that being a thief of joy? :p

Peep my one-wire desk setup, and that awesome tablet mode: https://ibb.co/album/1YGRfh

entropie2• 2 months ago

Two vertical displays are awesome.

Lukas_Skywalker2• 2 months ago

I have both the Framework 12 and the Framework 13. While I agree that the 12's display is not the best in class, it has one of the nicest touchpads I've ever used. It's hard to describe what makes the difference, but your fingers can glide nearly effortlessly across it. Both my Macbook and the FW13 have touchpads that feel a bit more "sticky".

analogpixel3• 2 months ago

- The Framework is more expensive : Kind of care, but not really if it's worth the money.

- slower (in most cases) : I care about this. Blender needs to render.

- louder (its fan ramps up quite often) : I care about this, it needs to be silent.

- has a pretty poor display : I care about this, I don't want poor screen quality, poor color quality, poor text rendering.

- but it is a touchscreen: could care less about this.

- has a 360° hinge : care even less about this.

- and is more repairable and upgradeable : really don't care about this at all, by the time this laptop needs to be upgraded, i'll just buy a new one anyways since the new parts probably won't work in the old machine.

I'm thinking Apple might just be better at figuring out what specs actually matter, and which specs just make nerds happy but don't actually sell. (except liquid glass, they failed on that.)

kreyenborgi• 2 months ago

the new parts probably won't work in the old machine

Except with framework, where you can actually upgrade it piecewise. The CEO had a video showing of them doing it in like 10 minutes, part by part

analogpixel3• 2 months ago

so in 8 years, I'll be able to buy a new CPU and it'll work in that old laptop?

nucleardog• 2 months ago

I'm thinking Apple might just be better at figuring out what specs actually matter, and which specs just make nerds happy but don't actually sell. (except liquid glass, they failed on that.)

Or maybe this is just a totally different product?

I'd also call out, anecdotally, of the people in my life the non-technical people are interested in touch screens, don't care about speed as long as it runs a few Chrome tabs without feeling slow, and have literally never mentioned noise except to complain about some absolutely absurd "gaming" laptops. I've only ever heard the "nerds" talking about this stuff you're saying actually matters to the non-nerds. Maybe you're one of the nerds?

analogpixel3• 2 months ago

I don't play D&D, but I do play with computers, so I'm more of a geek than a nerd.

tredre3• 2 months ago

by the time this laptop needs to be upgraded, i'll just buy a new one anyways since the new parts probably won't work in the old machine.

It's only been 5 years since their first laptop, but yes they sold motherboards for 5 different CPU generations that all fit in the same chassis. They've also released a Pro chassis that uses the same parts as well.

Whether most people want to keep the old beat up chassis/keyboard/trackpad/battery when they're ready to upgrade is another question.

But they have lived to their promises, despite your claim that they wouldn't.

joseph• 2 months ago

I haven't used the Framework 12, but I got a Framework 13. It really is modular and easy to repair, and they give great instructions and all the tools you need. For example, I dropped mine and bent the screen while carrying it. I ordered a new screen and when it arrived, it took maybe 15 minutes to replace. But the reason I dropped the laptop was because the hinge really sucked. It swings freely. So as I was carrying it, it suddenly swung wide open and threw off my balance.

The caps lock key, which I remapped to control, got a crack in it because I use it a lot. Worst of all, it doesn't stay pressed, depending on its mood. So maybe I'm pressing ctrl-a to get to the beginning of a line and it decides to type the letter a instead.

I really wanted to like it, but alas, the quality was too bad and I won't buy another one.

m463• 2 months ago

This is a values misalignment. Or a purchaser misalignment.

Corvette is a much better performer than a Toyota pickup because it is has better performance and weighs 100 lbs less.

on the other hand, how much would a macbook neo with 48gb of memory and 2tb of ssd work out?

kybernetikos3• 2 months ago

I'm not sure that there's a lot of overlap between the target markets. Most schools near me require windows and require a stylus capable touch screen, so the mac is out of the running immediately.

Even if it weren't, the fact that if you're giving a computer to a teen as their first machine to take to class and use every single day, you really, really, really want to be able to separately repair the screen and the ports.

As always, you're paying a premium for the repairability, but if your teen cracks the screen a single time in three years of carrying it to class every day, then you've already saved money.

porphyra• 2 months ago

Dell just announced an XPS 13 that is $699 (with a $599 education pricing) and fairly nice CNC machined body (1 kg) and nice screen (2560x1600 30-120 Hz 500 nit 100% DCI-P3). That could be a tempting alternative to the Macbook Neo for people who don't want to use macOS. Unfortunately for the Framework, it is no longer competitive even with other PC laptops.

https://videocardz.com/newz/dell-unveils-xps-13-its-lightest...

Evidlo• 2 months ago

Keyboard looks pretty unpleasant.

literatepeople• 2 months ago

Looks neat for sure. However you are sacrificing some core performance on the CPU (and likely gpu) if these benchmarks of the Core 5 320 pan out.

https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/18169809?baseli...

This is sort of the brilliance of Apple's supply chain moves here, they get to use binned iphone chips to sell higher performance computers in the lower cost bracket at margins impossible for the competition, and this is just an A18. When they upgrade it to the A19, it'll have 12GB of memory out of the box, giving it even more of an edge in this category. I don't see how others are going to be able to compete here, outside of just being "not apple", which in the entry level market is not enough.

sandreas• 2 months ago

I agree, that the Framework 12 is too expensive - especially in comparison to the MacBook Neo.

However, not everything can be a huge success. I think that the Framework 13 Pro shows that they are very capable in the premium segment and evolving as a company. I can't even imagine taking such a huge risk just to make a difference while still providing relatively small quantities (in comparison to the big players) of repairable devices... So in my opinion the money is not wasted. It's the price for being part of a change.

In times of AI Slop, privacy nightmares and ads everywhere, I'm saving money for the Framework 13 Pro with Linux freedom right now and can't wait to get my hands on it.

vondur• 2 months ago

It is really annoying how the x64 CPU's seem to constantly ramp up and down seemingly at random. I've been trying to tweak the fan curves on my Ryzen 9950x to avoid this but haven't been successful yet. Next stop is lowering the voltage once I figure out how to do it on my motherboard.

AnthonyMouse6• 2 months ago

Try making the fan speed curve mostly flat in the middle at whatever fan speed keeps the system from hitting the far end of the temperature range under moderate usage. Let it ramp all the way down at idle and all the way up at all-core full load but anything in the middle gets a fixed medium speed. If that medium speed is too loud then what you need is a larger fan that provides that amount of cooling at a lower fan speed.

DanieleSalatti• 2 months ago

The problem is, for an overall worse experience, are you willing to pay 20-40% more?

This is subjective. For me: yes. It buys me a lot, repairability and not being in the apple ecosystem are two things I value enough that it makes sense for me to go with Framework. It flips it to an overall better experience.

dangus4• 2 months ago

Let’s not forget that Apple advertises paid subscriptions in notifications and settings pane alerts when you first buy the computer.

They offer free trials which you can’t cancel without immediately ending the trial. (E.g., you can’t turn off auto-renewing without forfeiting the trial)

A device that has ads and/or behavioral pushes to subscription services and costs $500 doesn’t really cost $500.

chromadon2• 2 months ago

- "Let’s not forget that Apple advertises paid subscriptions in notifications and settings pane alerts when you first buy the computer."

I've literally never seen an advert outside of a 3rd party app or website on any Apple device I've owned (many).

Dylan168073• 2 months ago

If they're just advertising those things when I first buy it then my annoyance is somewhere between negligible and $10.

dangus4• 2 months ago

I think that there’s a little bit of pointlessness in comparing the Framework 12 to essentially the best laptop value of all time, a laptop that was basically unthinkable by the industry as a whole 6 months ago.

The framework 12 is also oriented toward the kind of person who will not be happy with macOS. At least for the 13, over half of framework’s customers use Linux. More of their users are on Linux than on Windows.

macOS is a commercial operating system that advertises paid subscriptions for you. Even my Apple TV started opening the TV app recently upon wake up which is new behavior. Apple is starting their subscription enshittification just like Windows 11. They see the end of hardware profitability and they like serving and and subscriptions more than building innovative hardware.

Framed this way, the framework 12 is perhaps the best convertible Linux laptop in its price range. And in that sense, it’s not hard to justify.

That said, framework’s clearly most competitive piece of hardware is the 13 Pro.

codedokode3• 2 months ago

What I don't like in Frameworks:

Tiny screens. Imagine running a browser on a 13" screen, where part of screen space is used by taskbar, tab headers, address bar, sticky site header, cookie bar and you get less than 50% left for content. And of course site designer will use the largest font available so that you can fit only one paragraph of text into remaining space. Obviously you cannot fit VS Code or KDEnlive (it has so many panels!) into this small screen as well.

I would prefer to buy 17" but sadly such laptops are considered "professional" and therefore overpriced so I had to settle with smaller screen size and cope with it. Small screens are only good for browsing social networks with post character limits and not for work.

You could buy a monitor, but monitors aren't free and you cannot take it with you when travel (to the couch).

They tend to use the most expensive CPUs which do not have the best cost/performance ratio. Mid-range, mid-low CPUs are better.

Standard US-style keyboard. Doesn't have layout switch keys and extra keys for languages which have more than 26 letters which is like half of the world? To be fair, Macs or PCs don't have them either. PC manufacturers would rather add useless numpad than keys for foreign languages. Also, it doesn't have large arrow keys, and page up/page down and how do you scroll the code without them.

I also do not like an idea with expansion cards for ports. Just add 6-8 USB ports, video and audio and you do not need any expansion modules which could save lot of money for the customers. Having 8 USB ports for free is better than having to buy 4 expansion modules.

Also there is no need to customize color, it is waste of money

Obviously it has lot of good features but currently it is more reasonable to buy a standard laptops for ⅓ price of 1 framework and install Linux.

By the way, Macs seem to have no replaceable parts, like RAM or SSD. I wonder what Mac owners do when keys start falling out from keyboard, do they buy a new Mac, or keys on Macs never fall out? On PCs, I replace the keyboard every 2-3 years.

LelouBil• 2 months ago

You know they have a framework 16" ? And the keyboard of the 16 is running customizable firmware so you can have your layout switch key and whatever else you want ? It has 6 usb-c ports, that are the other end of the extension modules

I bought it two years ago, I like it, but I still think it's too expensive for the actual hardware, but I liked funding the mission as well as receiving a product that I liked.

codedokode3• 2 months ago

so you can have your layout switch key and whatever else you want ?

I do not think so. Many languages have more than 26 letters but Framework doesn't seem to provide the keyboards with extra keys. They use the same keyboards as PCs, and for languages that have many letters PCs just use punctuation keys for extra letters, and move punctuation to inconvenient places. Some languages like Czech have so many extra letters that they have to use keys with digits for extra letters and type digits with Shift. And the root of the problem is that manufacturers try to fit all these letters into standard US keyboard instead of adding extra keys and adapting the keyboard for foreign languages.

ntnsndr• 2 months ago

I recently got a FW12 and, for a random data point, my kids love it: the color, the ability to do art on the touchscreen, the foldability. And I love all those things too, in addition to getting to play with various flavors of Linux on it. (Now running Fedora with Cosmic, but keeping GNOME for the handful of things Cosmic glitches out on.) It is just a fun computer, and I appreciate that playfulness about it every day.

jordemort• 2 months ago

I would love a way to mute particular domains on this website

advael• 2 months ago

For most of 2024, my main daily driver laptop was a little pink chinese laptop from 2019 I bought on amazon for roughly $200. It was marketed toward communication students. I put arch with cinnamon on it and it was pretty damn adequate for my needs, serviceable for browsing, watching videos, and even some dinky games, and of course fine for development, able to run tiny prototype code locally and ssh into more powerful servers (or cloud vms, whatever) when work was to be done for people paying for the compute

You really don't need that much computer for most things, but most operating systems shove a lot of extras on there by default. Leaving windows on the thing obviously would have been untenable, but even ubuntu would probably chug on such a device. I think if the supply crunch continues this logic will make sense to more and more people

I use a macbook for work now because I'm required to. It's just at every level an obnoxious operating system to work with, its permission model is a mess, every program on it is an ad and keeps trying to vie for my attention and I can't remove half of them. It bugs out often, including maxing out its application memory opening programs I didn't ask to open. It updates itself in an obnoxious way without my permission. It would be unusable if it didn't have a unix shell, and not everything on it is accessible from shell commands. Apple makes fundamentally incredible hardware, even if they're not perfect, but I would never intentionally buy something from them that didn't support getting out of their godawful software ecosystem

ivanjermakov• 2 months ago

Imagine Neo running Linux. Maybe I should contribute to Asahi Linux.

havblue• 2 months ago

So with the Framework you're paying a premium for maintainability. When the specs fall behind you can upgrade easily. With Apple you have a good laptop that will last awhile assuming you take very good care of it. And, of course, you can't upgrade or maintain it easily.

I can't say I agree with the thesis at all. With unstable hardware prices and leveling performance improvements, flexibility is becoming a far more important goal.

flakiness• 2 months ago

Bad timing. Not only MB Neo, but also the memory price hike. Whole selling point is vanishing, plus other makers are getting momentum reacting to Neo, further shadowing the FW12's existence.

I hope they can come back with some update with newer chipset, either from Intel or Qualcomm. They were picking the worst Intel generation and I think it was mostly bad luck.

xyzsparetimexyz• 2 months ago

Don't buy macbooks for young people. They want to be able to play games.

winter_blue• 2 months ago

Linux can run games better than both Windows and Mac. Steam's Proton derived from Steam now runs Windows games on Linux with better performance than Windows.

spankibalt2• 2 months ago

I consider the Framework 12 a conceptually flawed machine (especially given the setup of its maker) but, as a general computing option, it would still be of much better value to me than anything Apple had or has on offer; every hardware feature I value in general purpose mobile computers is implemented better in the machines of other builders. And the less said about the OS and the backing platform and company, the better.

groundzeros2015• 2 months ago

I was shopping for a Linux machine recently and the offerings are awful. >$2000 machines with DDR4, 16 or even 8 GB, integrated GPU, no usb C.

Apple is so far ahead right now in hardware.

teravor• 2 months ago

framework is terrible value. you can buy something far better significantly cheaper: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=7840u&_sacat=0&_from=R4...

sfRattan• 2 months ago

One factor I never see anyone talking about is that, for Framework laptops, the webcam is easily physically removable and the laptop will continue to function without it.

That's the reason Framework is one of the only laptops I'll ever recommend to parents who ask about devices for children under the age of 15-16. No Internet-connected computing device before that age with an integrated, un-removable webcam. Sorry... You either know people who've been hurt by online manipulation or you don't, and the harm it's possible to do is much worse when a webcam is involved.

Especially when parents aren't particularly computer savvy, kids should either have a mobile device without a camera or a desktop computer placed in a public part of the home. I know why most manufacturers don't make devices without integrated webcams anymore, but it really shouldn't be an auto-add feature to a mobile computer.

zx8080• 2 months ago

Apple mac vs a premium Intel-based laptop is a choice between bad and worst.

Why not AMD-based something like Thinkpad E- or L-series? It has solid linux support and no shitty Intel inside.

deepsun• 2 months ago

Add to the price calculation some part that may break, or you want to upgrade after a year or two.

thelastgallon• 2 months ago

If people like us who understand the long term value of having these things[1] available don't buy (and encourage others to buy), then we can't have nice things. I would always recommend students to buy anything other than apple (most Windows machines can now run Linux), run Linux on it and learn how to make it work. Todays students will be distributed all over the world and they have the skills to run Linux on the desktop, but far more importantly, make it work in the workplace ecosystem. Remember our governments are spending massive amounts of money buying Microsoft services and Apple products.

In fact, we should also highly encourage students to use Linux phones. It is important to get the next generation ready to get out of all these locked in extractive ecosystems.

[1] A standardized commodified market place of parts, available to assemble as new or as replacements for long term repair. There is no compelling reason modern machines (phones/laptops/desktops) can't have second and third lives. Remember how much Apple fights against repairability laws.

swaits• 2 months ago

FW13 Pro is where it’s at.

gt0• 2 months ago

The Framework 12 look lovely, I like the design a lot, but like other Framework computers, it's just far too expensive for what it is.

The processor inside it is approaching 4 years old and wasn't a good processor at launch.

I like how it looks, but I won't spend that much money on so little computer.

mixmastamyk11• 2 months ago

I remember when Apple computers were shipping four year old CPUs not long ago... was a couple of the Pro workstations? Times have changed.

pmontra• 2 months ago

A question to all developers working on 12 and 13 inches laptops. Do you spend most of your time connected to an external monitor or do you use the laptop one? My instinct is that there isn't enough space for two side by side windows of code but of course people working on 24" monitors would say the same about my 15.6" screen.

bilekas• 2 months ago

I had a smaller 13 inch laptop before that packed a punch but almost exclusively on the docking station and connected to screens, if I would on the sofa and thought I needed to do something really quick, I would grab it but it was painful. People just get used to things though, there are stories of people writing detailed packages on their phone sure!

Even now on 17 inches, I still use it exlusively on the dock with screens!

h4ch1• 2 months ago

I still use a 2019 MBP and I can't work on just the laptop screen. My laptop screen usually has one fullscreen window at all times; tmux, or a browser window; all the main work gets done on the big screen.

rock_artist• 2 months ago

Framework in general is focused on developers. I think the general target audience is different. So the customization and OS makes a huge difference for a developer. I was excited about the Neo. But the 8GB and storage felt too limiting for development.

For daily / home/office this is where the competition is. And it’s not against the Framework.

In raw experience even with latest Swift Air, Apple has a great device benefiting from their optimized and existing production line.

We’re 5-6 years now from Apple silicon and yet the industry didn’t catch up completely.

Battery life, heat, performance and even arm64 isn’t yet a first class citizen on Linux* or Windows.

(* Linux is mostly power management assuming mobility experience is needed)

pjmlp11• 2 months ago

A specific set of developers.

Framework doesn't mean anything to game developers.

tjoff• 2 months ago

Never understood these comparisons.

If you want to run OS X, buy the mac. If not buy absolutely anything else. It is that simple.

Though with 8GB of ram both of these machines are lemons.

If you are on the fence, do not buy the mac. Because by god why would you want to trap yourself in that ecosystem.

burgerone• 2 months ago

You really don't choose a Framework based on raw performance. You coose it because your values align with their philosophy.

Same goes for a Fairphone

unsungNovelty2• 2 months ago

I don't like MacOS. Everytime I talk about setting up a custom PC, people say - buy Mac Mini. No. I don't want MacOS. It's soooo slow workflow wise. I was literally behind my manager for 2 whole years to get him to move me from Macbook Air 11 inch to a linux laptop. He was ready to give me Macbook Pro 2016. But not a Linux laptop, in an org which had them. And I went over his head to get a Linux laptop there. The slow workflow MacOS had. My goodness.

But people always argued that I used a subpar Mac device as slow as Macbook Air 11. So you didn't have the full experience. blah blah blah. Guess what? I use a M3 Macbook Air with 24GB now. It is still is as bad as it was back then. And after the glass update, I has become abysmal. So no. I'll just get another Linux computer. Not a Mac. The only time I will voluntarily choose MacOs is if I had to choose between Windows and Mac. Then I will choose Mac 100% of the time. Or if I had to ever develop for Apple ecosystem as well.

Moldoteck3• 2 months ago

Sorry for ignorance, but what workflows do you have that an M3 24gb mac feels slow? I got the basic M1 air and it still works fine

unsungNovelty2• 2 months ago

It's not the hardware's fault. It's the software that I don't like. This was the case before and after Apple silicon.From the window management to how I need to setup my computer, everything is slow in MacOS. The UI interactions, how the apps needs to be managed. Everything. I am trying to make it faster. It's not customisable the way Linux is. Maybe I need to be a bit more clear, it is slow FOR ME. Not to mention, after the glass update, I find it very hard to use with respect to UI.

kelnos2• 2 months ago

It's annoying how short-term people think sometimes.

With the Framework 12, sure, you're paying $750 up-front, but if you actually buy into the repairability/upgradeability angle (and if you don't, you maybe shouldn't be buying Framework), then in 3-4 years you might spend $200 or $300 on upgrades, and then in another 3-4 years another $200 or $300, and so on.

Meanwhile, with the Neo, you might be buying a whole new one at $600 every 3-4 years.

(Yes, I know how everyone says they've been using their Mac laptop for 15 years and it's still going strong, but if you're that person, then you don't care about upgradeability, so, again, you're probably not in Framework's target market. I also know lots of people who get a new Mac laptop every 3-4 years. And even a few who get one every 2 years, and that makes me sad.)

liendolucas• 2 months ago

I think this is an unfair comparison. We are comparing a company valued on the order of trillion dollars with a very small company that is trying to put something different on the market.

And yes sure, Apple is going to do way better than probably lots of manufacturers out there.

From an OS standpoint is also a comparison that cannot be done. We are comparing MacOS with a Linux/Windows machine, which are all completely different beasts.

One last and not minor point. By choosing Apple you're choosing not only to be locked down at the OS level but also on the hardware, which at least for me is a huge "no".

ongy• 2 months ago

I have the Framework 12".

It's hard to justify the price unless you put value to Framework's gimmicks and mission.

There's no illusion that I'm not paying extra to vote with my wallet for sustainability. And I'm on with that.

steve_taylor• 2 months ago

But there's one performance-related area where the Framework pulls ahead—a little—and that's sustained performance. When running a heavy workload like HPL (a FP64 HPC task, that taxes the CPU and RAM constantly for many minutes), the Framework's fans allow it to throttle less than the Neo.

People are seeing big gains in sustained performance on MacBook Neo with a simple thermal pad mod. The disadvantage is the underside of the Neo can get hot, but that's not an issue if it's sitting on a desk instead of your lap.

willi59549879• 2 months ago

i mean the apple hardware might be better but the closed down software is a reason for me to never chose apple.

mindcrash• 2 months ago

Why do people keep comparing Apples to Bananas (pun intended)?

To be clear: These two are based on completely different system architectures. Ofcourse performance is different, and probably in favor of Apple. Especially because everything running on top of Apple Silicon is heavily optimized from the get-go to do so (due to hardcore system level optimization by the build chain and kernel engineering groups at Apple).

If you want a excellent quasi open and self repairable/modifiable laptop running Linux there's probably nothing better on the market than a Framework laptop. But I might be a little bit biased because my main system is a Framework 16 running Gentoo with OpenRC.

I can do everything I want with it including local AI, since the 6.x kernel series - including AMD NPU support - was released to stable, and AMD creating a excellent runtime to serve local AI models through AMD NPUs and GPUs called Lemonade (https://lemonade-server.ai/) a little while back.

Retr0id2• 2 months ago

Why is it unfair to compare two different CPU architectures?

fouc• 2 months ago

I think Framework's in a hard place with the Framework 12. Because it's an odd dimension, and because they wanted a full 360° hinge for tablet mode, they had to compromise on the display.

Seems a bit weird that framework went with a 360 hinge w/ sub-par display & sub-par stylus. I wonder if there's any demand for that and what's the use case?

dinosaurdynasty• 2 months ago

I bought one because as far as I could find it is basically one of two 2-in-1's on the market that officially support Linux. (It replaced an old Android tablet and one of the original FW13's, both of which were getting old.)

INTPenis• 2 months ago

Clickbait and he knows it

We all have different needs, to me any Macintosh is just as hard to justify.

krzyk• 2 months ago

It depends what OS you need/want.

Some people don't want macos.

I can install Windows or Linux on Framework.

Zenst• 2 months ago

Saw this and does seem the screen tipped the balance here, which is understandable. Maybe if framework had a better screen without the touch overheads as an option(which I'm sure they could do being modular and upgradable)

brachkow• 2 months ago

I don't understand the whole Framework thing (not 12, but in general):

1. For why would everyone want to use their laptop longer than MacBook lifespan? I'm typing this on a 5+ year old MacBook, which I expect will work for 3 more years. At this lifespan, it will be outdated by all means. I can replace it with a new one at the cost of $1-1.5k. If I had a Framework, I would gradually replace this with new parts? Well, only the mainboard takes a huge portion, or even more, of that. Screens became outdated too, by the way!

2. Repairability. Apple has bad repairability, in terms it glues the laptop from three parts. That means you can't do anything by yourself, but you can get a repair in a day or two in any point of the world. Can you fix your Framework in Tbilisi, Georgia? Last time I replaced the screen on a Mac, it cost me $300 including human work, the same as a Framework display costs.

3. MacBooks are just better in terms of performance and battery life per buck. They also tend to have the best screens, sound, and input. All of these are quite important for a laptop.

I like the Framework premise; I would like to own a Framework as a Linux machine. But we should remember that these are hobbyist laptops with a product/cost ratio, and gimmicky features.

All this discussion, amplified by voices of Apple-quarreled people like DHH, is stupid and kind of harmful – unexperienced people are ending up with expensive enthusiast devices (...or worse, with Dell XPS, you know).

P.S. Please don't bring "computer ideology" into this – there is no walled garden on MacBooks like on other Apple devices. There are no services actively sold to you. I don't know where this argument is coming from. It is just a Unix-based computer, with good hardware and a nice-looking GUI.

That said, I would definitely like to see comments of peope who actually used a MacBook and switched to Framework.

dbgobrrr• 2 months ago

I regularly follow Jeff Geerling's blog and I value his opinion (usually), and I understand his points - he does make very good points in this article. However, the conclusion really irked me:

As I mention in my video, the Framework 12 isn't a bad laptop, it's just a bad value, especially in comparison to the Neo.

Saying it is bad *value* is off the mark completely. There is, unless you are willing to use MacOS (which is a knock-out criteria for me: I love Apple hardware, but I cannot stand the OS and its artificial restrictions it imposes on the user).

I own a FW12 and for me the main driver was a light laptop with good battery life[1], that I can install my own Linux on it, and the drivers all work from day one on a new laptop. The last bit is not taken for granted, I have been bitten many times by this (as I'm sure many of you did). On top of that, I decided I will not have any more android devices if I can choose otherwise[2] - and the FW12 is a good tablet replacement. It's great to watch videos with (tent mode).

So for me, personally, it is great value, and the Neo would just become a secondary device I would very rarely use. Low utility means for me low value, YMMV.

[1] The battery itself is great. I get real 10-12 hours of work on it regularly! But obviously intel CPU cannot rival Apple on power consumption, as you can see in the benchmarks in the article. [2] Android or iPhone are unfortunately a requirement for modern life. That's just so sad and I wish it would be legislated that apps that are needed (banking, civil services, etc.) *must* work on an alternate OS without the user hostility (I'd mention here: https://keepandroidopen.org/)

docjay• 2 months ago

What you’re saying is valid, but it doesn’t take away from the “bad value” statement. Jeff was speaking value for money, you’re talking subjective utility value. Reviews cannot, and should not even try, to include that in their assessment. Sure, mention the limitation (and he did), but to assign a value to it for comparison is called “personal bias” and it’s no different than saying “it’s twice the hardware for half the price, but gloss black is a boring color, so 1 star.” Reviewers should always state value as “dollars per pound” and $1 for 10lbs is a better value than $1 for 5lbs; that you personally can’t fit 10lbs in your vault doesn’t change the assessment.

The real problem is that “value” is an ambiguous word, so everyone is right and wrong while talking about the same thing entirely differently. Yeesh.

someone1111• 1 month ago

It's a terrible take and he absolutely exposed himself as an apple shill.

MisterTea• 2 months ago

How much of the hardware cost of the Neo and other Apple Silicon machines is subsidized by their other income streams? If Apple was simply selling computers, I highly doubt they would be as affordable as the Framework.

Cockbrand• 2 months ago

I in contrast highly doubt that Apple would release a potentially super popular product that doesn't create a profit. My personal assumption is that the profit margin for the MB Neo is quite low, but it still exists.

Their advantage is that they have long running, very tight contracts with their suppliers, and extremely high vertical integration. They don't have to share a part of the profit margin with Intel or Microsoft. Also, they have a simple product range with comparatively few SKUs, and produce an extremely high volume of units, taking advantage of the economies of scale.

ece3• 2 months ago

I would like Framework to have a keyboard with normal size arrow keys. That is all.

krschacht• 2 months ago

In the last 18 months I tried a Framework twice and both times ended up returning it. I was running Arch both times and had too many low level issues.

I couldn’t get hibernation or sleep to work reliably. And about once a week I’d get a random freeze or crash that required me to reboot and lose all the windows I had open. I spent dozens of hours with Claude chasing things down, disabling various power management features, trying different kernels.

I really appreciate how much Apple computers just work. I’ve since invested heavily in Karabiner, Aerospace, Superkey, and a few other utilities to get close to the level of customization I had in hyprland. I still miss the polish I used to have, but I can close my laptop lid, walk out the door, and 100% trust I’ll open the lid and resume work. That counts for a lot.

I’m keeping an eye on Omarchy and Framework to see if they eventually solve all issues. Maybe in a couple years I’ll try again…

bigyabai10• 2 months ago

Did you not try one of the officially supported distros first? https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/officially-supported-...

In my experience, Arch and the AUR are not very reliable for identifying and respecting your system config. I've got a number of laptops that handle Arch very poorly but sing on Fedora or NixOS.

Sasisundar09• 2 months ago

Modular hardware is a great concept, but local model development lives and dies by memory bandwidth. Apple’s unified memory architecture is a physical moat that current modular buses cannot bridge.

Melatonic• 2 months ago

Doesn't the framework 12 use a pretty old Intel CPU and design?

Better comparison would be the new 13 compared to a current MacBook Air.

einpoklum• 2 months ago

People comparing expensive laptops and pretending they're cheap. Weird.

Budget laptops are less than half the price of the MacBook Neo.

cmxch• 2 months ago

Because you want something that runs more than macOS nor has privacy issues that Apple software does?

dismalaf• 2 months ago

It's hard to justify Framework 12 existing. Framework 16 too.

What's the point of making 3 different modular laptops where most of the pieces are specific to the model? You can't move the mobo or any component really from one to the other except for the USB pieces.

What they really should have done is make all the models take the same mobo, batteries, keyboard, etc..., and then made a specific screen/hinge to turn the 13 into a tablet.

Instead they fractured their own ecosystem and only the 13 (now 13 pro) feels like a polished product.

tetsgima• 2 months ago

Since apple introduced M1 i dont see any point in buying a windows laptop especially if you need a laptop as your main pc

A new macbook pro can get expensive, but its a thing that will last you for 5 years at least (people still use their M1 with touchbars and have no problem in doing so) meanwhile im not even sure a new windows laptop will survive 2 years without getting outdated or broken

It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

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