I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2025/i-wont-connect-my-dishwasher-your-stupid-cloud

1012 663 1 year ago

mmmlinux2• 1 year ago

Stuff like this is why I never really trust "Consumer Reports" reviews.

CR had some good vetting of stuff about 20 years ago, but has really missed the mark over and over recently and I would tend to just ignore them now. Sad, because their premise is very good.

llm_nerd• 1 year ago

This submission made me chuckle. My last dishwasher purchase was a Bosch based upon Consumer Reports endless praise for the brand. Bought specifically the model they recommended, a big motivator being their "predicted reliability". It was not an expensive model, but it was more expensive than alternatives.

Worst dishwasher I've ever owned. The control panel literally cracked in half in completely ordinary, if not even careful use. Everything about it seem designed to use the cheapest, smallest amount of material.

It was actually the motivator for cancelling my Consumer Reports subscription. It really made me wonder what their incentives really are.

paradox4603• 1 year ago

Between them and Wirecutter going to pot, it's a sad day for consumers

Rtings seems good for now, but who knows how long that will last

doctor_radium• 1 year ago

I don't have a subscription, but will still visit the library sometimes to skim the odd article. CR's problem is...what? They still tailor content to a magazine article size (online content is updated more, but not necessarily deeper), but the magazine today is miniscule due to printing costs? And they really don't have the resources for proper longevity testing?

I believe they still have a letters column, or failing that, an email address. Would highly suggested the OP contact them and complain how they missed the mark.

bell-cot• 1 year ago

Legal Action Possibilities:

- Product not as advertised, because it failed to disclose the need for a smart phone model supported by their app, and WiFi, and an internet connection, and etc.

- Product is not ADA(?) compliant, because all that extra complexity makes using it too difficult for some disabled people.

- Product is in violation of data security regulations of some US States, or countries, or the EU, because ...

And in theory, any Cory Doctorow fan with the spare time could set up a web site to name & shame all the consumer products which had these "involuntary cloud" features, helping people avoid them.

geerlingguy14• 1 year ago

I think that's somewhat the intent of this wiki (though it's more focused on making things repairable, less on the IoT shenanigans): https://repair.wiki/w/Main_Page#gsc.tab=0

MostlyStable2• 1 year ago

I've been looking for a resource like that for a long time!

-edit- It's currently preeeeeeeetty sparse. Hopefully it (or something like it) catches on in the future.

alphan0n• 1 year ago

Appliance manufacturers are not required to manufacture ADA compliant appliances.

Employers, state and local governments, businesses open to the public, commercial facilities, transportation providers, etc, are required to procure ADA compliant appliances where applicable.

saaaaaam6• 1 year ago

You don’t need to use the app to operate the dishwasher. It works absolutely fine as a dumb dishwasher.

cf100clunk5• 1 year ago

Competing brands offer the blocked features without any need for this sort of connectivity, so I'd say ''It works absolutely fine as a dumb dishwasher'' would not be a strong marketing slogan for Bosch.

geerlingguy14• 1 year ago

Every other dishwasher in the price range offers the same features hidden behind the app out of the box.

This one would be fine as a 'dumb' dishwasher, but I wouldn't have paid $900 for a $400 dishwasher if I'd known all the nicer features (like Eco mode or self-cleaning) require an app.

dzhiurgis6• 1 year ago

Don't tell me what I need and don't need...

monksy3• 1 year ago

Let's not forget compeled agreement to a contract. (You have to agree to the terms of their service in order to access a feature you paid for. Often times that coerces you to give up rights to the data that is produced on your resources [power and network])

pavel_lishin2• 1 year ago

I suppose this means that in the future, when I shop for a home appliance, I'll have to download their manual first and scan for things like this.

Avamander4• 1 year ago

Unfortunately unavoidable unless you take the cheapest model and miss out on a lot of features you might otherwise like.

pavel_lishin2• 1 year ago

My current dishwasher - purchased last year - doesn't require any internet connectivity for any of its features. I don't think it even has the option to connect.

(Although it does have the shitty capacitative buttons that I can never tell whether I've pushed or not.)

CharlieDigital• 1 year ago

I have a pretty high end LG washer/dryer combo that I purchased when I bought my current house (10 years old now, knock on wood; just been a workhorse). It has a steam cycle that has been used maaaaybe 3 times in that period? Of course, it doesn't work quite as well as just ironing...

I inherited an old Maytag dishwasher with the same house that I never got around to replacing. It has like 5-10 cycles...and we only ever use the 1. I have variously thought about replacing it because it is like car engine loud, but it runs a fast cycle and does a decent job and has been bulletproof so far.

Honestly, a lot of these added features feel like weird gimmicks nowadays created by product and marketing teams to differentiate to the consumer shopping based on feature lists and not necessarily to actually add value.

Who's making the workhorse stuff nowadays?

mmmlinux2• 1 year ago

Sounds like you end up missing out on a lot of features either way.

beardyw• 1 year ago

miss out on a lot of features you might otherwise like.

More like ... will never actually need.

Spivak2• 1 year ago

The design of dishwashers has been fundamentally the same since their invention. The only real differentiating feature is having a sanitize setting but even cheap dishwashers have that these days.

mindslight• 1 year ago

Dishwashers are actually a bit backwards. The cheapest models have one of the most important features (a heating element for drying), and all the more expensive ones leave it out (for Energy Star) and then screw around with various half measures to try and compensate.

Due to this, trying to read reddit recommendations for dishwashers is horrible. People will wax on about how so and so is the best one they've ever owned, then only if you probe a bit it turns out they're using "rinse aid", hand drying half their dishes, running frequent cleaning cycles to get the musty smell out, etc.

acheron• 1 year ago

I just got a Miele dishwasher recently, not cheap whatsoever, and there's no wifi or app or anything at all.

geerlingguy14• 1 year ago

Yeah... there was nothing on the product page on Lowes (it was after 10 pm on a busy Saturday, so I didn't have time to dig as deep as I would with a pre-planned purchase) and I thought the 500 series would be consistent from what I had read years ago. There was no indication that certain features (besides Alexa/Google Home integration, lol) would be locked behind the app.

singleshot_• 1 year ago

Failing to mention the material fact that the dishwasher barely works without the internet could qualify as consumer fraud round these parts. Private right of action; punitive damages available. (Offer varies by state).

btbuildem6• 1 year ago

In that near future, you should be able to use some kind of an AI Assistant to do this for you

userbinator4• 1 year ago

In the future, buy used ones and repair/restore them.

dredmorbius3• 1 year ago

That's definitely strongly advisable already.

And: if you cannot find the manuals readily online, that's another black strike / red flag against the product and vendor.

fpauser• 1 year ago

Just return that dumb dishwasher.

cf100clunk5• 1 year ago

Small claims court too, for the aggravation?

ta1243• 1 year ago

What he wants is a dumb dishwasher

What he has is a "smart" dishwasher

Avamander4• 1 year ago

And all this stuff could work directly locally, it'd even make alternatives possible and it'd be an immensely better experience. It would eliminate the latency it takes for the requests to reach halfway across the world and back. It would also eliminate a lot of the privacy and security concerns.

What makes it worse is that these cloud connections also tend to be insecure and unreliable or both. I've seen multiple vendors (including Miele) make unencrypted connections to their cloud. (Try blocking port 80 outgoing on your firewalls.)

I've also set up a bit of monitoring for a few appliance manufacturer's clouds - these cloud services have outages all the damn time. To an extent it makes sense given that nobody is explicitly paying for them. On the other hand it's a terrible omen for the longevity of such services. (I can't wait to buy an expired appliance manufacturer's domain.)

I can't imagine a solution to this mess either besides legislation, like forcing some open access at least on EOL.

ianburrell• 1 year ago

I'm hoping that the Matter protocol will help with local home automation. It is designed to work on the local network using IPv6 networking, with gateway between Wifi and Thread. The downside is that it is complicated from everybody involved in design.

The goal is that device companies will want to get rid of cost of developing cloud software, and effectively outsource it to Apple, Google, etc.

Avamander4• 1 year ago

Apple's tempo so far has been abysmal, so I wouldn't hold my breath. We can hope though.

ndriscoll• 1 year ago

Unencrypted protocols basically are open access. It's easy to reverse engineer, and then you can just point the DNS address of their cloud at your server to make it work locally (or worst case hijack their IP). It's the encrypted connections that you need to be wary of.

deadfece• 1 year ago

Netgear did a switcharoo on me after the fact with my Nighthawk. When I got it, I was able to just open the app and manage it locally. I don't remember what it was but the thing I was after definitely worked a lot better from the app. Then they updated it and required you to make a Netgear account to manage your local device. I was able to trick it into thinking I was offline for a while, and I found that would let me log in locally, but eventually that quit working too. I uninstalled the app and then just managed it from Firefox mobile. Their web UI wasn't remotely good, but it worked. Luckily I didn't have to make a ton of changes to it from there on out, since I was just using it as an AP at that point. When I moved, I got a much better AP for the new place.

kulahan2• 1 year ago

I am so done with accounts. I purposely use insecure passwords on sites that make me create an account just to view content. I don’t give a shit if someone hacks into my Logitech mouse software account. I really don’t. In fact, the pain it would cause the company would be very positive for me.

cf100clunk5• 1 year ago

And on my GE Amana dishwasher, it started having weird power issues like the controls would just not light up unless I reset the circuit breaker

It was eerie to read that, because at ~10 years old my GE Profile dishwasher's logic board died and exhibited all those same behaviours. I followed great advice from techs but then faced the same issue: $400 to get another board, but why gamble?

I purchased a KitchenAid (with front facing, well lit and described buttons) and it has been great, with no WiFi requirement, and I felt the Bosch models were overpriced.

jmholla• 1 year ago

When I posted on social media about this, a lot of people told me to return it.
But I spent four hours installing this thing built into my kitchen.

I sympathize with the author and what Bosch is doing here is ridiculous and I am fully against it.

But, they're not going to care about your complaints. Returning it and hitting them in the pocketbook is really the only way consumers have to send messages that companies hear.

It's a pain, but if you truly care about this, you, sadly, have to put in extra effort to fight back.

kulahan2• 1 year ago

If your audience is big enough, your complaints can end up hitting their pocket book.

dawnerd• 1 year ago

Exactly. I'm in the market for a Dishwasher and was highly considering a Bosch based on all the positive reviews from CR and such. Now I'm not considering them at all.

r0ckarong• 1 year ago

Isn't it kind of silly going "YOU fix this problem I'm complaining about" in the first place? If he isn't willing to return the machine, why would anyone else bother?

lmm• 1 year ago

Evidently his complaint is worth less than the amount of effort to return the dishwasher, so it can't be worth that much.

sitkack4• 1 year ago

I look forward to Jeff inserting a "Bosch Sux" interstitial into his Youtube videos.

_carbyau_3• 1 year ago

If someone has "influencer" power they could drag it into the back yard and light it on fire for a Youtube video.

See how Bosch likes the power of web ads.

monksy3• 1 year ago

You can also look up their board's email addresses and send a complaint direct to them.

ycombinatrix• 1 year ago

sunk cost fallacy

cf100clunk5• 1 year ago

Would Bosch try to go the same route as German automakers and institute a fee for ongoing use of advanced features?

ale42• 1 year ago

Not sure if it will be Bosch first but I'm pretty sure someone will try to push subscriptions in this kind of devices... with only $3/month you can enable the fast cycle! And/or you'll get (for free this time) a screen that displays ads for detergent before you can start your dishwasher.

Hackbraten• 1 year ago

Required reading: Unauthorized Bread by Cory Doctorow (excerpt: [0]; part of his book Radicalized [1])

[0] https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalized_%28Doctorow_book%2...

jmkni• 1 year ago

Or the poor mans version, "Please drink verification can" - http://i.imgur.com/dgGvgKF.png

user9999999999• 1 year ago

reminds me of some dystopian short story I read somewhere, where society moves to a nearly full advertising economy, and everyone has to be an influencer about all the food / things they consume for the day, streaming themselves on camera live 24/7

saaaaaam6• 1 year ago

I had this dishwasher in a rental property I was living in. The landlord fitted it a month or so after I moved in because the old dishwasher died.

I was very skeptical of a WiFi connected dishwasher.

Very quickly, I loved it.

It’s actually REALLY useful to be able to get a ping on my Apple watch that the dishwasher has finished.

Once upon a time I had a dishwasher where the door popped open when it was finished. That was good too.

But with the Bosch one I can do things like mute it (so it keeps washing but more quietly), or make custom programmes (spray harder on the bottom rack because I’ve been baking).

When I moved I bought my own. And then bought a matching smart washer dryer.

I was really really skeptical of internet connected appliances like this. I wouldn’t return to a dumb appliance.

nicolaslem• 1 year ago

I am willing to bet that these features you started relying on will stop working within five years.

ryandrake2• 1 year ago

I'd also make that but, but only at ten years. It's unlikely but possible that the manufacturer might actually keep the backend service running for 5-10 years without it failing from incompetence or doing a deliberate rug pull. But, I'd surely bet its gone in ten years.

cf100clunk5• 1 year ago

Almost any washer and dryer on the market now has an audible signal (some adjustable for pitch and volume) when the cycle is done, but if you need your phone or watch to be pinged then I guess that's a selling point for you.

saaaaaam6• 1 year ago

My washer dryer lives in a utility room. And I’m pretty deaf.

myself248• 1 year ago

I always miss the ding (it's in the basement and very quiet), I'd probably do fine if it simply kept beeping every few minutes, I'd eventually hear one. But just one, nah, not nearly enough.

So, I put a magnetic sensor on the door and made a circuit that starts beeping when the door has been closed for an hour.

Simple as that. Door open, machine not in use. Door closed for less than an hour, probably still running. After that, beep until I open the door. No need for anything networked, no subscription, no terms of service, just more beeping.

(Same with the microwave. There's never a reason to leave cooked food in the microwave with the door closed for a long time, so it dings every few minutes until I open the door. My old microwave didn't do this, but my new one does. It's so simple, why can't they all have this?)

zamadatix• 1 year ago

It can be quite the convenience to have a alert which follows your current notification preference settings (e.g. if you're sleeping you don't want to hear the dryer just finished but maybe your SO who is awake does) and can be a quite ding or vibration rather than a buzzer loud enough to be heard across the entire house.

That said I'd much rather it be a simple local HomeKit integration instead of cloud only custom app BS.

dpc_01234• 1 year ago

It’s actually REALLY useful to be able to get a ping on my Apple watch that the dishwasher has finished.

Most dishwashers will play a tune or something, and I can't see why would I want another digitalized distraction in my life instead. But TBH I can't imagine why I would want to wear another portable digital distraction source on my wrist, so maybe I'm just old fashioned.

Once upon a time I had a dishwasher where the door popped open when it was finished.

This and everything else does not require network connectivity. Only notification does. Plus maybe remote start (already have that with a "delay" on the panel of mine), some UI for statistics. Gimmicks, if you ask me.

Connectivity in devices would make sense for certain conveniences in a perfect world, where companies can be trusted to behave decently. In practice they will brick (on purpose or accident/hack), ransom it in one way or the other, demand sourcing consumables from them after the fact, sell your privacy who knows where.

dzhiurgis6• 1 year ago

I can't see why would I want another digitalized distraction in my life instead

Preach. I love my smart devices, but they need to be quiet and dumb on outside, smart on inside. Cars where screens and beeps can be turned off, microwaves without beeps, washers without bops and gyms without forced music.

I think Japan kinda gets it right tho their rice cookers have famously pleasant jingle once it's done cooking.

HenryBemis• 1 year ago

wear another portable digital distraction source on my wrist

Oh but why? Everyone around me had an apple watch, I was the odd one out. And I said to my self "no more!!!"

I bought a second-hand apple watch, I deleted all the garbage from it, I got a comfortable bracelet for it. Then I disabled Wifi/Bluetooth/Data. I got an Android phone, so connectivity is limited/shit anyway, but if you kill background processing, alerts, all transmissions, then the battery lasts forever!!!! (36hours tops). Now I am a cool moron like every other moron around me!

The only sound I kept is the 'chimes' (so if I am 'available') I drop and do 10 push-ups. That's the ONLY useful thing about this watch.

MostlyStable2• 1 year ago

None of these features require the cloud (which was the actual complaint in the video, not just the wifi). All of them could be run locally. Unless you think it's important to get that notification on your wrist when you aren't home, then I still don't see why these features are _cloud_ features. And even then, basic functionality like running a rinse cycle (again: the example from the video) shouldn't require an app, local or otherwise.

Yes, smart features can be a great convenience, but they shouldn't come at the expense of basic functionality, and they should only use the cloud when actually required. Very, very rarely are these smart features inherently a cloud feature. Exceptions being things like the stated in the video case of things like cameras/other home security devices.

lloeki2• 1 year ago

It’s actually REALLY useful to be able to get a ping on my Apple watch that the dishwasher has finished.

It is a nice convenience, but it's trivially done with a power metering smart plug (using shelly here) that 100% locally shoves data to home assistant.

LocalH4• 1 year ago

That's what they WANT. They want you to be just satisfied enough that you accept the lack of local control, the cloud-first approach that allows them control over the device you paid for (or in this case, the landlord paid for, and essentially made the decision for you).

Cloud-first hardware is trash, and should be illegal to sell. Cloud-optional is one thing, but it should always be possible to perform 100% of the capabilities of a piece of hardware that you buy, without some bullshit cloud or subscription.

I consider it to be a very "rapey" mindset on the part of these companies. They will get the data they want, or you'll get a worthless pile of plastic and metal that barely counts as a functional device.

brailsafe• 1 year ago

I put up with a variety of shitty appliances because I'm a renter in 2025 who doesn't anticipate ever owning a home, but if I were in the business of outfitting my place with appliances, they sure as shit would not be the crap quality touch sensor microwave, oven, and dishwasher we currently use, or the dumbass laundry machines with stupid arbitrary labels for each setting. The fridge is fine, it has a door, that's all it needs to do. I want buttons.

m4634• 1 year ago

renting nowadays is a nightmare if you dislike this stuff.

You may be forced into:

- "smart" door locks or garage

- wifi connected thermostat

- specific provider for building internet

- various appliances: washer, dryer, fridge, stove, microwave, dishwasher

- "package room provider" with cameras and privacy policy to photo/video of you, your address, your phone number (for access codes)

- and of course the application process...

broodbucket2• 1 year ago

I'm sure it differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction around the world, but the application processes are categorically insane. Feed all of your personal information, very very personal information, into this form with this provider that will keep it on file and definitely do nothing else with it for X years, or you can't have anywhere to live. It wasn't even so bad when there was only one provider so at least you didn't have to repeat this with multiple different platforms, but the last time I was in the rental market every different agency had their own platform.

I'm sure if you called you could still manage to do an old-fashioned style form, but not only is that a huge inconvenience, I'd be very worried that agencies would just ignore it if the property was popular and had good competition.

dzhiurgis6• 1 year ago

Some things - I don't see value (yet).

But others like coffee machine, lights, solar, AC, ventilation, robot vacuum, car charger, hot water heater, speakers are so obviously better when connected.

readthenotes1• 1 year ago

I disagree with most of these (giving as much reason as you).

The only device that I really want connected is my lawn sprinkler system so that it can check the weather before using a lot of potable water

poincaredisk4• 1 year ago

Do you really mean "cloud connected"? Having an app for a coffee machine sounds good. Having to connect my coffee machine to my wifi, so it can stream my coffee drinking habits to shady retailers, and upsell me subscription to paid features (sorry, you didn't pay $2 this month to unlock late macchiato, would you like Americano instead?). After you create an account, of course.

Even worse if you literally can't use your coffee machine without connecting it to the cloud.

I feel similarly about the rest of the things you listed. But I don't mind having the option, as long as it's completely optional (because I don't want to use it). But because of how capitalism works, it is very hard for the MBAs in management to resist the urge to cloud-wall features.

dhosek• 1 year ago

I have this same dishwasher in my apartment (installed by my landlord). It’s not just that it requires a cloud connection for the features, but that the setup is so janky and bug-ridden that I’ve been unable to successfully make it happen.

So I just live without the extra features.

bitwize• 1 year ago

All well and good until "wash dishes" is one of the features that require an app and cloud connection.

Don't laugh. Some HP printers refuse to print, after an initial "free trial" of 25 pages, until you register the printer with the HP app.

4ndrewl• 1 year ago

I was pleasantly surprised when there was an update to my Flymo robot lawnmower app where they _removed_ the requirement to setup an account to use it. Seems most other companies are going the other way though.

m4634• 1 year ago

I read that there used to be an activation requirement with smart glasses (xreal?) but they waived it if bought on amazon.

I was wondering - maybe they have a deal with amazon that says what serial number was sold to who?

geerlingguy14• 1 year ago

Would be great if Bosch found some magical way to make their firmware work with button combos for the 'hidden' modes. Or to at least make local connection the default, and have a way to set that up without Internet.

btbuildem6• 1 year ago

One thing I've learned when buying a full set of appliances couple of years ago: don't read consumer reports or reviews by randos on the internet -- instead, go to industry literature, and read reports by/for service and warranty providers. They have actual hard data on the types and frequency of problems across brands and models.

But back to the main theme of the article: hell to the no was my initial attitude, and I went out of my way to make sure my appliances were as simple as possible. Still, three out of the five were "wifi-enabled" and promised a world of app-enhanced wonders. Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere near being set up, and I think I am lucky, all the normal, expected appliance features work without requiring these extras.

The idea of remotely preheating my oven while I am not home still makes me shudder.

odysseus• 1 year ago

Where can you find these service/warranty reports?

btbuildem6• 1 year ago

It's been a while, so these may be out of date:

- https://blog.puls.com/top-appliance-brands-2020-guide

- https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4039866/National%20Appliance%...

- https://blog.yaleappliance.com/is-consumer-reports-accurate-...

Also: please do your own homework, you should be able to find all this once pointed in the right direction.

m4634• 1 year ago

Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere near being set up,

I have an LG soundbar never set up, or connected to any wifi.

and when my phone gets near it, it asks to connect to an airplay device.

I think that might be a fatal flaw to even getting a wifi enabled device - maybe someone in the adjacent apartment can do the initial setup if you didn't.

hopefully these devices have a physical component to initial setup, and are not succeptible to denial-of-service type attacks.

leonidasv• 1 year ago

I live in an apartment. When I go to my living room, a pop-up shows on my phone (Samsung Galaxy) asking if I want to connect to a Samsung TV and cast my phone.

The catch is: I don't have any Samsung TV in my home. It's the neighbours TV. It happened even when my Bluetooth was disabled, somehow the phone still reached the TV wirelessly.

Thank God there's a setting to turn this "feature" off.

atoav• 1 year ago

I have wifi enables debices that I decided to build myself because in that market segment nobody offered a no-bullshit option that works with home-assistant.

paradox4603• 1 year ago

The best friend you can make is an appliance repair man. Ask him which brands are good and which bad, and you'll rarely be steered awry

alt227• 1 year ago

I asked the local appliance repair man which was the best brand for kitchen appliance reliability and he said Bosch.

brikym2• 1 year ago

Where do you find this data? The average person is going to use Google and because Google sucks they'll end up on some shill review site.

btbuildem6• 1 year ago

It's been a while, so these may be out of date:

- https://blog.puls.com/top-appliance-brands-2020-guide

- https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4039866/National%20Appliance%...

- https://blog.yaleappliance.com/is-consumer-reports-accurate-...

Also: please do your own homework, you should be able to find all this once pointed in the right direction.

MarkusWandel3• 1 year ago

I ask my friends and colleagues. Lots of them have Bosch dishwashers and they all love them, without exception. That's why I bought mine. Ask me in 10 years whether that was wise...

StrLght• 1 year ago

I usually go through manuals if I’m worried about something specific. There’s no need to rely on reviews when you can get an answer directly from the manufacturer.

Jeff shows manual explicitly saying when you need an app, so this could have been avoided.

potato3732842• 1 year ago

Consumer reports has been not just bad but actively untrustworthy ever since they framed the Samurai, probably before.

catigula• 1 year ago

Consumer reports for me embodies the phenomenon where, whenever I have even cursory familiarity with the subject material, their reporting (ratings/reviews) become laughably inaccurate and misinformed from my perspective.

nikcub• 1 year ago

Download and read the manual before buying a product. I avoided buying an air filter recently because the manual made it clear that there was no auto mode, which I would have expected at the price.

Downloading the manual may have helped Jeff dodge this product.

Web search has become a nightmare for consumer purchase research - it's all affiliate driven. Even the old traditional trusted names are just phoning it in with affiliate content churn.

Izkata• 1 year ago

The idea of remotely preheating my oven while I am not home still makes me shudder.

Electric ovens can be terrifying when they fail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrL_9K7rCz8

Mine was throwing a lot more sparks than in this video. It sounded like fireworks were going off in my kitchen.

account4218• 1 year ago

What's the failure mode here? Heating coil making contact with the outer casing? Shouldn't that be caught by a residual-current circuit breaker?

In any case, generating lots of heat inside the oven is probably safer than doing it outside it.

tchalla4• 1 year ago

It would help if you’d have posted an example of reports for service and warranty.

btbuildem6• 1 year ago

It's been a while, so these may be out of date:

- https://blog.puls.com/top-appliance-brands-2020-guide

- https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4039866/National%20Appliance%...

- https://blog.yaleappliance.com/is-consumer-reports-accurate-...

Also: please do your own homework, you should be able to find all this once pointed in the right direction.

oblio2• 1 year ago

instead, go to industry literature, and read reports by/for service and warranty providers.

I'm joining the others in saying I don't know where to find this info...

btbuildem6• 1 year ago

It's been a while, so these may be out of date:

- https://blog.puls.com/top-appliance-brands-2020-guide

- https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4039866/National%20Appliance%...

- https://blog.yaleappliance.com/is-consumer-reports-accurate-...

Also: please do your own homework, you should be able to find all this once pointed in the right direction.

jjice• 1 year ago

don't read consumer reports or reviews by randos on the internet

I like the idea of using industry literature, but I think consumer reviews have value too. Much smaller purchase, but I was considering a new travel thermos and all the professional review were praising it. As soon as I pulled up some consumer reviews though, it was almost universal that after washing it for the first time, it smelled of garlic and soy sauce. Apparently this issue was around for at least three years (into today).

Not sure why that got passed over by all the professionals (maybe a lack of time spent with the product), but I was glad I read the consumer reviews as well.

account4218• 1 year ago

I don't gp was suggesting to trust professional reviewers but rather professionals who actually have to work with/repair the product in question.

But I do agree that that won't cover everything. Issues that need repair are a big concern but so is usability when the damned things are working "properly".

NegatioN• 1 year ago

When buying a new washing machine and dryer, I actually spent hours extra to find models /without/ app requirements last summer. There were so few of them that did what I wanted, and also didn't require internet access that I'm worried the next time around there will be no more options where I can elect to keep them off the net. :/

sitkack4• 1 year ago

While CR has the ability to filter by Wifi or not, as time goes on, this will drop to zero. What they don't do is say if the functionality is gated behind 1) an app and 2) behind internet connectivity, they aren't the same.

dredmorbius3• 1 year ago

Has anyone else looking at this looked into the prosumer / commercial space? I suspect that market will have a lot less tolerant for digital bullshit.

cmcaleer• 1 year ago

This was the approach I took when purchasing a TV. Getting a TV without a microphone and Wi-Fi connectivity is borderline impossible... in the consumer segment.

My living room is now furnished with a digital signage monitor and a soundbar.

The price was a touch more than a normal TV of a similar size, and there was not much variety (I had to give up on OLED at the size I wanted for example), but I just have such a hatred for the constant nagging for Wi-Fi and terms of use acceptance nags my parents' new TV had.

If your product is cheaper because you sell my data to the highest bidder, just let me outbid them please.

m4tthumphrey2• 1 year ago

I purposely spend a lot of time ensuring that an appliance (such as dishwasher, fridge, oven etc) has no connectivity before I purchase. Even if it misses out on some of the “better features”.

Surely when all appliances go down this route it will not last long, purely down to the amount of breaches that will inevitably occur. Not to mention the backlash.

geerlingguy14• 1 year ago

We've had this with TVs for like 3 years now... though when they do terrible things, they don't turn off a home's heat or start fires, usually.

broodbucket2• 1 year ago

A return to dumb TVs would be great. Would gladly pay a premium to have a TV that's just a high quality panel and barely anything else.

m4tthumphrey2• 1 year ago

At least theres a valid reason for a TV to be connected though.

klipklop2• 1 year ago

I feel Jeff should have bit the bullet and just returned it. I know it's a waste of time, but these products have to be rejected at retail. Retailers will eventually get tired of the extra support burden and demand manufacturers drop stuff like this.

They should all get hit with the open box problem from the returns.

sitkack4• 1 year ago

I agree.

And Consumer Reports (which I am a "member") needs to call them out and hard for this.

geerlingguy14• 1 year ago

I'd love to take a stance like that, but the reality is I've already sunk about 6 hours total into the whole operation, and I have quite limited time for my home maintenance + improvement projects as it is (my bench currently has a new faucet set to fix the leaky bathroom faucet, as well as an exhaust fan to fix the broken one in our bathroom... and those are just the things that are currently broken, not the dozen or so routine maintenance things I am behind on otherwise!).

If taking a stand means sacrificing another 2-4 hours (and wrangling that dumb dishwasher back into the minivan, probably with some water spilling out this time, causing more pain since it'll cause minivan issues lol), I don't know if I have the time for it.

That also assumes I can find a suitable replacement unit (and wrangle it, and install it) without seriously disrupting the dish-handling routine in the house for another day or three!

Sadly, that means Bosch wins this time. But if I never buy another Bosch device again (I have one of their water heaters, and a fancy ear thermometer that I rather liked...), maybe they will lose in the long run.

Plus, now I have a long-term project to hack my dishwasher.

klipklop2• 1 year ago

Yup. It's time to replace the controlboard with an ESP32 or something! Did you keep your old dishwasher?

AceJohnny2• 1 year ago

There has to be some backpressure on the supply chain. I appreciate that you used your clout to make the issue public, but sometimes I worry that it only goes so far as our little echo chamber.

ryao8• 1 year ago

Do you have a Home Depot or Costco near buy that offers free installation and haul away? Most people who get these appliances have the store do all of the work you did.

eduction• 1 year ago

How long did it take to write the blog post

dredmorbius3• 1 year ago

Assuming you're American, your state's attorney general office is responsible for consumer complaints.

It's free to file an issue, and in most cases you'll get a direct response. The issue here is product fails to perform as expected, and resolution is that the manufacturer remove the unit at their cost and give you a full refund.

Arranging an alternative purchase is your issue.

And contact your local news media as well. They love stories, particularly if there's existing footage they can air. VNRs (video news releases), the original "fake news" became a hot item in the 1990s Because Reasons. And you've already got the footage and audio.

kevin_thibedeau2• 1 year ago

Dishwasher electronics are subject to elevated heat and humidity levels. A DIY solution will be extremely unreliable. An amateurish job on the power electronics can be a fire hazard and will void any insurance policy if they find out what you did.

hedgehog2• 1 year ago

For what it's worth I have an 800 series and it also made some features like delay start app-only. Even if I was ok with that it's still a terrible design for a multi-person household. See also: cars that are going app-only for remote start.

rkagerer• 1 year ago

Out of curiosity, how long did 'ya spend on that blog post, the YouTube video, and various platforms reading/answering comments related to this experience?

rendall• 1 year ago

I've already sunk about 6 hours total into the whole operation...

I suspect you're going to sink a whole lot more time over the unsatisfactory lifetime of the dishwasher. It sounds like the sunk-cost fallacy.

agilob2• 1 year ago

If taking a stand means sacrificing another 2-4 hours
Plus, now I have a long-term project to hack my dishwasher.

So you'd rather waste more time, probably days or weeks, on a hack where Bosch can change implementation anytime, than return it?

fransje269• 1 year ago

the reality is I've already sunk about 6 hours total into the whole operation

That's a bit of a sunken-cost fallacy.

Here is a device that is going to be used every day for the coming 5 to 10 years, with a least 3 useful functions that cannot be accessed, and it's going to annoy you every time you use it.

Some devices simply have to work without friction, and that is worth spending home maintenance time on (and our hard-earned cash). Dishwashers, washing machines, printers..

Life is too short to waste time and energy on those, and I would argue that the energy, time, friction and annoyance you are probably going to encounter on the lifetime of that device is probably more than the 6 extra hours that would have been spent returning this unit.

Just my 2c, from the sideline, not walking in your shoes.

fransje269• 1 year ago

Please have a look at this comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297

It's linking to a website with the following explanation:

  However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.

account4218• 1 year ago

Except if customers like you don't take a stand now then by the time you get a replacement all the other Brands (some of which are made by the same company as Bosh appliances) will have likely moved to the same bullshit.

atif089• 1 year ago

Hey Jeff, I follow you on YouTube. I hope you're recovering well. Wishing you all the best.

1over137• 1 year ago

but these products have to be rejected at retail

That only works if other options don't have these requirements.

Having recently bought new appliances, they almost all have some features gated behind "the cloud".

Even many exhaust fans (that go above your stove) have wifi now!

belorn• 1 year ago

Those products will earn profits to the producers after sale by bundling ads onto the app. Since the cost of producing the networking is less than projected sales, every unit will sooner or later have said networking and app. The app-only dishwashers will then out compete other dishwashers, slowly replacing all alternatives to app-only dishwashers outside "industry dishwashers" which will be app-free but cost 10x that of a dishwasher sold to the private consumer.

Try buy a TV without smart features. You can, but then you got to buy one intended for hotels and pay the market price for products intended for that market.

1propionyl• 1 year ago

Try buy a TV without smart features.

Easy. Just buy a dumb monitor. Why do you even need the TV tuner?

nerdponx3• 1 year ago

Bundling ads and selling data. Double revenue stream, double incentive for enshittification.

Also the marginal cost of an app is basically $0, whereas the marginal cost of hardware like buttons and 7-segment displays is >$0, so it's tempting (if you expect to sell a lot of dishwashers) to replace hardware with an app.

jajko2• 1 year ago

This ain't true at all. Do you have public no-password wifi? I presume not, then just don't enter wifi password in it and voila, no ads, no smart features, just plug that HDMI cable, switch input and run whatever you need from it for next 10 years.

But if you have the idea you want internet-connected TV but somehow 'not smart' (not even understanding what it means) but without ads then yeah good luck, they are baked into OS even if manufacturer didn't want them. And there is no such manufacturer I know of.

Although, I have cheap 75" TCL one and the only ads I see in past 2 years are those youtube itself inserts, while using all default apps that came with it (plus VLC for more video formats and generally better player). What other ads areas are there?

loteck• 1 year ago

Jeff's opposition to this technology is not based on principle, rather it is based on the question of convenience of a few hours of time. A lot of commenters reacting to this story based on principle should take note of how many others gripe but roll over for it. Certainly, vendors are taking note of that.

geerlingguy14• 1 year ago

My hope—which has been borne out by some correspondence I've already gotten today—is that some other consumers may be spared the experience I had.

Since I have a tiny bit of reach online, I figured I'd use it FWIW to maybe impact Bosch's sales by like 0.000001%. Because that's better than 0.000000001% :)

aaronax4• 1 year ago

I sooooo want to return our Ninja Creami Deluxe, recently purchased at Costco. If it sits for ~ an hour or more after use then it cannot be turned on again until unplugged and plugged back in to the wall. From Googling, it seems that Ninja started out doing warranty replacements for the issue but now have shifted to "its a safety feature".

I know it would be super easy to return or exchange at Costco. But my spouse likes it, I am pretty certain that any replacement unit is going to have the exact same issue, and it was a pretty good price.

I'm sorry for being a bad consumer!

chrsw• 1 year ago

I'm not sure there's enough consumers to fight back against this. Most consumers are too focused on other things to worry about being locked in or screwed over by appliance companies. Acceptance.

wrasee4• 1 year ago

Have to agree. The bottom line is that manufactures will continue to pull this trick as long as consumers keep buying. Even Jeff himself says that

I don't think we should let vendors get away with this stuff.

But he _did_ let the vendor get away with it. That’s exactly what he did. He even spent a significant part of the article anticipating the push back by trying to reason why in his case he felt justified in doing so (because he’s busy, because he couldn’t wait a few days hand washing, because of family constraints), but presumably.. you shouldn’t?

So I don’t get it. It’s precisely the “do as I say, not as I do” that we have this problem. There is an immediate benefit to the saying part, on social media, the social signalling, etc (especially immediate for a YouTuber), but not so much for the doing part.

And I say that as largely a supporter, Jeff Geerling seems to be one of the good guys. Which I guess is why we are where we are?

Aissen• 1 year ago

I can hear Jeff's argument (in this very thread), that as a video creator, taking a public stance is an already impactful way to put pressure on the manufacturer. That's leverage enough for him.

necovek6• 1 year ago

While it's utterly true these features will simply get abandoned by the manufacturer, people seem to discount how hard (read: expensive) it is to develop local-first software, especially the one you want to just work with a mobile app that might or might not be on the same local network or subnet (try explaining that bit to your regular Bosch customer).

Since we are, ultimately, such a minority, I am sure that not even returning the product would make the manufacturer understand that this is — really — unacceptable. The only way we can get this "fixed" is by mandating open APIs for local use by regulators, when we'll see the proliferation of custom apps.

financetechbro• 1 year ago

How complicated of software does one need in a dishwasher? Feels like a solution looking for a problem

AndrewDavis• 1 year ago

Or phrased another way, if local first software is so difficult why are we doing it at all when these devices worked BEFORE they had software.

The worst washing machine I've ever had is my current one, and it isn't even a "smart" appliance. It has just enough software to be worse than my one with dials for everything.

Larrikin• 1 year ago

How do I use Home Assistant to run my dish washer, charge my electric car, start my washing machine, etc based on the capacity of my solar array's battery and the fluctuation of electricity prices day to day to pay the least amount of money without software connectivity? All of this is possible today with the right hardware.

It does NOT need cloud connectivity and all of these devices should be able to communicate locally to a matter or zigbee hub or over Wi-Fi without Internet directly to my server. That is the actual problem. We should not let corporate greed stifle innovation by saying new features are pointless because a company then can try to exploit it for further profit.

stiglitz• 1 year ago

Why make it work with a mobile app at all? How is that even a convenience? This is an appliance you need to be physically present at to load and unload.

ryao8• 1 year ago

I could see a remote notification that it finished being useful. That said, the manufacturers would never go for this, but a dry contact for a GPO that is asserted on the machine finishing is likely all a number of people here would ever need/want.

necovek6• 1 year ago

No disagreement there, but once you are set on a mobile app, you are going to push for it to be used.

It all probably starts benign: let's push some notifications to customer's phones (already requires a server — ahem, a cloud — and a mobile app).

Then smart product managers realize that the app is not used by anyone, and they start thinking about "value add" with the app, and quickly, you are looking at removing things from the physical unit and putting them only in software.

A PM next: look, this release has increased usage of the app 10x!

Instead of them just doing the right thing and nixing the app — but who'd advocate for cutting their own job?

CyberDildonics• 1 year ago

people seem to discount how hard (read: expensive) it is to develop local-first software

How hard and how expensive is it? It used to just be called "software" for four decades and literally everything was made this way up until a few years ago so I think the evidence is against you on this one.

necovek6• 1 year ago

It was made for different use cases.

Nobody had a personal computing device in their pocket 90% of their awake time.

Now the goal for product department is to make their newly "smart" devices accessible to said computing devices.

The simplest solution that (almost) always works on home networks is to initiate an outgoing connection to an external server (the "cloud"), push notifications and poll for commands; after, have the mobile app only talk to the server.

If you do anything else, you are at the very least setting yourself up for support nightmare: "I am at home and I can't access my washer through the app" (are you on the same network? maybe your phone has wifi turned off?)

For usecases of the sort, this is one general solution that — from the perspective of a PM — always works.

By simply discounting reality that it's more expensive to implement both locally accessible smart devices, yet keep remote capability, and discounting that support costs are going to balloon too, we are not driving to a positive outcome for all of ourselves either.

I think we should focus on getting the cost down, by building better tooling and protocols and patterns that make it easy for a mobile app (or any client) to discover and talk to any smart device, making it simple for a customer to decide if they want remote capability or not.

ReptileMan• 1 year ago

I see that the genius that decided that butonless car dashboards are a good idea, have found a new job, now that the car trend has reversed.

For me the most egregious thing was online account to use my mouse.

Also for dishwashers and washing machines - the eco and other bullshit modes are terrible. Let me waste tad more resources that I will gladly pay for and don't care how greasy the things that I throw in the dishwasher are.

m4634• 1 year ago

thanks, I'll take Bosch off my replacement dishwasher list

yAak• 1 year ago

There’s plenty of Bosch models that don’t have this “feature” — he just bought the crappy one

thombles• 1 year ago

I was pleasantly surprised that Yamaha flirted with this then backed off. My receiver is connected to the LAN since this is helpful for streaming, and it has a companion MusicCast app for controlling it on the WiFi or playing audio stored on your phone. No messing around with accounts, it just works. A year or two ago the app started regularly pestering you to register an online account. I, along with who knows how many other people, sent them an annoyed email promising that if an account ever became required my receiver would spend the rest of its days on OPTICAL1 with a different smart frontend. Quietly, the in-app popups stopped. For now, life is good.

sitkack4• 1 year ago

They will just try again after the old weirdos get sent to the nursing home.

pipeline_peak• 1 year ago

2007 I won’t connect my phone to your cloud

2012 I won’t connect my tv to your cloud

2015 I won’t connect my car to your cloud

didgetmaster• 1 year ago

The only feature that would make me want to connect it to the cloud is if it would automatically load the dishes and then put them back in the cupboard when it finished cleaning them.

SamuelAdams• 1 year ago

You joke but Google is working on this now. What if you could have a maid robot in every household, similar to the I, Robot film and book.

https://deepmind.google/discover/blog/gemini-robotics-brings...

mhb• 1 year ago

Everyone's "working" on it.

ryao8• 1 year ago

I was in a similar situation with a clothes dryer dying where the repair required a board that was half the price of a new one. A key difference is that I had a professional appliance repair guy look at it and he determined it needed a new board. Rather than buy a new machine like Jeff did, I made the opposite decision and paid for the board. It has been a few years since that and I have been happy with the result. I was spared from having a dryer that did not match the washing machine so I not only saved the half the cost of the dryer, but the cost of a new washer too.

geerlingguy14• 1 year ago

The problem is the control board/electronics was not the only thing going south on that GE unit.

The door hinges were giving way, the door gasket had started to get iffy (not quite leaking yet, but it needs a new one), the top rack doesn't go in and out easily anymore...

All those parts aren't even made to be fixable anymore. At least if it's a pump or control board, those are relatively swappable. The rail system seems to be integrated into the sidewall!

On our old fridge (only like 12 years old), we lived for 6 years with a broken drawer because the slide for it is literally integrated into the inside wall... not repairable at all, without an entire new shell.

If we had a 30 year old device, it would probably all be repairable. Sadly, there seem to be very few consumer options (and nowadays even 'professional' options) that are made with longevity as a feature target.

ryao8• 1 year ago

We have had more luck with our appliances:

  * The clothes dryer only needed a new circuit board that cost half of a replacement.

  * The microwave only needed a new magnetron that cost the price of a new microwave oven. - Some would find this insane, but none of the new microwaves matched the kitchen decor and replacing everything to make it match the latest fad would have been truly insane.

  * The refrigerator’s gasket needed to be pushed back into its groove when it started to come loose.

The only appliance in recent years that I have replaced was a toaster. For some reason, it did not occur to me to try to save it.

As for your dish washing machine, we had problems with our first one and heard from a repair guy that you really need to rinse the dishes before putting them into it. Ever since doing that, we have had zero problems with our machine. Maybe that might aid your new one’s longevity.

kuschku• 1 year ago

In most modern appliances, if the board is "broken", it's usually just one simple controller and a few resistors. Usually takes only a few minutes soldering.

But in your case it sounds like a replacement was long overdue anyway. Better be careful with appliances that use water.

I live in an apartment building with a shared laundry room (but everyone has their own washing machines) in the basement.

Last month a neighbor's old washing machine - with many pre-existing issues - broke down. The dampeners for the drum failed, and once it started spinning, it just "walked" away, ripping the tap out of the wall.

The water flooded the entire basement a foot deep, including the storage units and underground parking. Took a full day before you could set foot in it again, a whole month before everything was truly dry again, and I lost a lot of things (including lots of old tech).

Jedd• 1 year ago

You were prepared to replace a functioning washing machine just to match a replacement clothes dryer?

ryao8• 1 year ago

My mother has been thrilled ever since I gave her a set of matching units. Repairing it to keep things that way was far cheaper than replacing both of them, or even one of them.

Spivak2• 1 year ago

If you have guest-facing laundry machines such as a the very trendy washroom/mudroom combo then matching machines is part of the aesthetic. People have spent more on less impactful decor improvements.

I've spent more than the cost of a laundry machine on interior paint for my walls.

schappim• 1 year ago

I had a similar experience when I bought a pressure washer[1] that required an app. Some things just shouldn’t need one.

1. https://www.kaercher.com/au/home-garden/pressure-washers/sma...

userbinator4• 1 year ago

They want you to fumble around with a phone app to adjust the machine, while you're presumably going to be at least somewhat wet from its use? WTF.

cebert• 1 year ago

I wonder how long it will be before we need to start paying subscriptions to use our appliances or pay per use. Bosch is leaving money on the table by only allowing you to use DRMed detergent cartridges too.

randrus• 1 year ago

Philip K Dick includes this as a side bit in Ubik - iirc there’s a great scene where the main character is broke and trying to get the front door to let him in to his apartment.

lousken• 1 year ago

This is not just dishwashers - robot vacuums are super bad with this one, did not see any with local first app. ACs are just as sketchy. Another opportunity where EU can fix worldwide market.

saltysalt• 1 year ago

The Internet of Things is the ultimate digital land grab.

karaterobot• 1 year ago

First, it lets product designers get lazy.

Product designers get blamed for this kind of thing, but I can all but guarantee the product designer just worked on the how, they didn't decide that your dishwasher needed this feature. We rarely go rogue and create a whole new system that nobody asked for, then convince a bunch of product managers, VPs, and engineers that what they thought was a shitty idea is actually worth doing. Ideas like this get given to us, it's our job to execute on them, just like engineers implementing shitty features to the best of their ability. Product designers are usually the ones who complain about bad user experience, and get told it conflicts with business goals.

brikym2• 1 year ago

It's the tech bro mentality and low interest rates that got us here. It's not enough for a company to just make something good on an open standard. No, they have to go with the enshitification/juicero model and blitzscale the whole market. Appliances should work with zigbee or similar but instead we get a dozen janky apps or 'works with Alexa'.

paradox4603• 1 year ago

My washer and dryer are miele, and the remote notifications are useful. I've used some of the remote start features to ensure the machines run when the solar is generating, but that's about it

Honestly I'd have been better with the speed queen and a relay wired into the starter switch.

As for the dishwasher, I rigged up my current one to send me end of cycle alerts by putting a current detector loop around it's power inlet, and alerting when it goes from high to low and stays that way for a period

combyn8tor• 1 year ago

I don't understand - does the dishwasher not have any indication that it's finished? Mine just turns off the LEDs on the front panel when it's done. I usually don't empty it immediately anyway.

Cymatickot• 1 year ago

Data sniffers always looking for some dirty washing.

Ok with some stats send in quality. But these days the more complex they get, they sound like printer Error blah blah. :)

gigel82• 1 year ago

I get everybody wants to lock you in, but how do we incentivize manufacturers to add local support? Bosch is already high-end so it's not price.

cyanydeez3• 1 year ago

vote for better regulations. Capitalism doesnt care about your actual needs. They just raise the costs to offset the loss of "poor" consumers.

boznz• 1 year ago

Dear Bosch, if you need someone to design a $5 control circuit that will time a few motors and actuators and last 20 years, just give me a call.

Zak• 1 year ago

They don't. They want you to have to use their cloud service, either to sell data you generate or to try to push you into a subscription of some sort in the future. They're evil, not stupid.

_carbyau_3• 1 year ago

Control circuit - check.

Now I just need a box, some motors and actuators and a lot of waterproofing....

userbinator4• 1 year ago

Mine is completely computer-free, with a mechanical timer, and has only required a minimum of maintenance over the years. There's actually a somewhat underground community rebuilding/restoring vintage white goods, which I suspect may become more popular as things like this keep happening.

Unlike the new stuff that's dependent on a cloud service with rapidly changing software which may get shut down or unusable in a few years, mine has been working with the same power and water for the greater than half a century since it was made.

sghiassy• 1 year ago

You’ve just ruined every growth Product manager’s dream

isr• 1 year ago

In terms of "what should be done?", and I the only one who thought of the Silicon Valley episode where they immortalized Jing Yang on a "smart" fridge?

dsalzman• 1 year ago

This is why I buy “commercial” appliances when I can. My speed queen washer and dryer each have two knobs and a start button. Thats all you need. I doubt I will need to ever replace them.

bob1029• 1 year ago

My favorite part of my SQ dryer is the big chunky knob dedicated entirely to adjusting the signal level (it's set to "off").

criddell2• 1 year ago

Last I checked, commercial dishwashers are very loud. I’ll trade some longevity for an appliance that is easier to live with.

nextos2• 1 year ago

Miele has some home dishwashers that are not too different from their commercial models.

Really spartan and silent. A knob and two buttons, or a couple of buttons and a led display. The price is also not too bad, around €750.

dreamcompiler2• 1 year ago

Speed Queens are great and very expensive. Many consumers will have sticker shock at their price.

But they last 25 years so they'll save you big bucks in the long run.

https://www.donsappliances.com/blog/speed-queen-washers

thorncorona2• 1 year ago

Speed Queens are great at destroying your clothing and being very expensive in the process you mean.

Please don’t buy a top loader for the love of your clothing.

dorfsmay5• 1 year ago

Bosch!

I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone.

I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions.

Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no time nor energy to remove it and return it.

I tried to contact Bosch who keep redirecting me to some other I ternal department and eventually stop responding.

Do NOT buy a Bosch diswashe, even though you pay full price upfront you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you.

ano-ther• 1 year ago

Oh yes. Got an e-bike with a Bosch controller. Have to click away the app advertisement every time before I can use the bike. And the app requires registration. I have the strong suspicion that as soon as I do that, the bike will only work with my phone and start locking out my family members from using it.

Filligree• 1 year ago

Other way around. They'll try to upsell you on a 5 euro feature that locks the bike to your phone and prevents family members (or thieves) from using it. Though since almost no ebikes do that, it doesn't work to reduce theft.

Not much point in the app unless you want to transfer routes to a map app on the head unit, though.

hyperman1• 1 year ago

My bosch ebike controller is a very lousy timekeeper, and the only way to set the clock is with an app.

consp2• 1 year ago

I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone.

Don't know where you are but in most countries that would be a valid reason to return it at any time you found it out. They lied to get your money, willfully is almost never a requirement.

kube-system16• 1 year ago

Yeah, misrepresentation is basic contract law stuff that would be generally valid in the US too, but:

1. there's probably no evidence of it

2. the workers at the store will deny it

3. the workers at the store likely have no grasp of contract law and will insist on whatever their store policy is

4. hiring a lawyer to return a dishwasher is a waste of time for most anyone knowledgable enough to know that this is a valid legal issue

dorfsmay5• 1 year ago

Bought from a dealership. I don't think he lied, I think he just didn't know about "advanced functions".

I never got the "no need for wifi" in written form.

MarkusWandel3• 1 year ago

I've run into amazing customer service when I've contacted companies in Germany about stuff. For example, a 1960s vintage pressure cooker (Sikkomat) handed down from my mom. I wrote the manufacturer, asking about how the secondary safety works, and they replied saying regrettably the manual is out of print, but here's a photocopy, enclosed.

So with Bosch, see if you can find a German address/feedback form. Don't worry, they'll understand English.

averageRoyalty• 1 year ago

In Australia you're not required to keep the packaging, and the company you bought it from must cover your shipping costs. This would constitute a Major Problem[1].

1. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/problem-with-a-product-or-...

teruakohatu• 1 year ago

That is a really good system you have over there.

I suspect the company would just respond “the dishwasher is working fine the owner just refuses to enable features as per the manual”.

dylan604• 1 year ago

I read Australia<snip>Major Problem, and I immediately had the Koxbox track pop into my head. Naturally, it's easiest to find it on YT[0]. I never did take the time to look up where the sample came from, not what the full audio would say. I just assumed that Australians dutifully ignored it when heard as much as 'murikans ignored the FBI warnings at the head of VHS tapes--later DVDs.

[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh7IW3Or590

</absoluteTotalTangent>

nextts6• 1 year ago

Bosch knows how to perfect asshole design.

On some of their ovens there is a secret key sequence (like game cheat) to get the buttons working again. Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this. Or have a defunct oven.

But it is not public info they have released (but had been leaked on YT)

So they have software with a bug and a workaround they won't tell you about. Ideally they should recall these ovens and pay for a replacement install.

throwaway2037• 1 year ago

    > Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this.

Is this legal? It seems like an excellent case for a state attorney general to sue them. At least extract a settlement with promise to repair the software bug.

WuxiFingerHold• 1 year ago

I don't believe this. It's illegal in many countries. No way a large German (after Dieselgate they all are very cautious) company like Bosch would make such a stupid move. If they did they'd face countless lawsuits and a ban in many countries (first would be the USA).

raverbashing• 1 year ago

Stupid question but have you tried turning it off and on for a while?

It might be something simpler

tsukikage• 1 year ago

Bosch knows how to perfect asshole design.

This is actually pretty low on the asshole scale.

Consider: dishwashing-as-a-service subscription model. You get the dishwasher chemicals in the post - the dishwasher automatically requests the next lot when it feels like it - and there's cover for repairs; for this you can either pay a regular fee or make in-app purchases of WashCoin, which you then spend when you need to wash the dishes. Maybe add a gacha mode to the app to win bonus wash / rinse / self-clean cycles.

publicmail3• 1 year ago

My favorite is my Bosh wall oven that uses 85C rated capacitors with practically no voltage derating for the control board that sits directly at the top of the oven. After 4 years, they gave out causing the display to dim to the point of invisibility.

We’re talking about 50 cents of part savings on a $3000+ appliance here.

Replaced them myself easily, but most people will end up having to call for service and end up replacing the entire board for hundreds of dollars minimum.

Aurornis2• 1 year ago

by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions.
you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you.

Which functions?

This is a really confusing post without knowing what those functions are.

dreamcompiler2• 1 year ago

TFA made it pretty clear that rinse cycle, delayed start, and eco mode require the app.

dorfsmay5• 1 year ago

On my model "deep cleaning" of the dishwasher, some other functions I think, but that I didn't care for.

pokstad• 1 year ago

That’s really unfortunate considering they are a top rated dishwasher with historically basic feature sets on their products. My Bosch doesn’t even have an LCD display on it.

ensignavenger2• 1 year ago

Sounds not so much like a Bosch problem as a retailer problem. It was the retailer that lied to you about the machine.

like_any_other• 1 year ago

Requiring internet for features that don't need the internet is a manufacturer problem, no matter what any retailer says or doesn't say.

tzs2• 1 year ago

I had sort of the opposite situation. I needed a new washer and all the top rated ones according to Consumer Reports included WiFi. I asked at Home Depot if the one I was thinking of getting, an LG WM3400CW, required me to actually use the WiFi and they said no.

I used it for a few weeks without ever even trying to set up WiFi and everything was fine.

Then I found at that when you set up an LG washer for WiFi you can get reports in the app of water and energy use. I'd actually like that, so decided to give it WiFi access.

I then found out that the WM3400CW does in fact not have WiFi. I think it might be the only current LG washing machine that does not have WiFi.

I suspect that Consumer Reports got confused because it does have LG's "Smart Diagnosis" feature, which gives you diagnostic reports in the LG app.

The way "Smart Diagnosis" in the app works with the WM3400CW is that the washing machine sends the data to the app acoustically. Press the button sequence to start a diagnosis on the washing machine and it sounds very similar to an old analog modem. The app listens to that with your phone's microphone.

OkGoDoIt• 1 year ago

That sounds perfect. This needs to go on a list for the next time I need to replace a dishwasher.

exabrial2• 1 year ago

Literally none of that requires cloud access though to accomplish that task.

sureIy• 1 year ago

This sounds like great use of technology if you ask me. The only thing I'd complain about is that data would not be E2E encrypted :)

dorfsmay5• 1 year ago

Smart diagnostic sounds good but make it available via Bluetooth or make the dishwasher run a webserver on the local lan.

Having to go through their site and their auth means they ultimately control the appliance I paid full price for.

i2shar• 1 year ago

Why not just use Bluetooth? I'd be suspicious if the Dishwasher app requested permission to access the phone's microphone

vasco• 1 year ago

For energy usage, a metering plug on the same outlet you use is very cheap. For water, just take the bendy pipe and put it onto a big container and see how much water it uses. It shouldn't change much so you do it once. Wifi and the whole cloud for this seems weird.

schobi• 1 year ago

Wouldn't it be great if a universal standard existed for devices sending their diagnosis via audio?

If there is a microcontroller and a beeper in there anyway, at only the extra cost of internal memory? Instead of a modem-type modulation and a speaker, make use of the bare minimum piezo beepers and send something that is universally understood? All of that without FCC, no extra hardware cost, no backchannel und thus little security considerations?

Yea - I know. Works much better to upsell "wifi enabled" and I'm happy that the appliances only beep rarely.

squigz• 1 year ago

The way "Smart Diagnosis" in the app works with the WM3400CW is that the washing machine sends the data to the app acoustically. Press the button sequence to start a diagnosis on the washing machine and it sounds very similar to an old analog modem. The app listens to that with your phone's microphone.

This sounds far, far better to me - and just goes to show it's not necessary for everything to be connected to the Internet...

culturestate2• 1 year ago

The way "Smart Diagnosis" in the app works with the WM3400CW is that the washing machine sends the data to the app acoustically.

My LG microwave has this too; it wasn't a selling point for me, but I thought it was a nice compromise by their engineers and product team.

7thaccount• 1 year ago

Acoustically? That's pretty neat and seems a lot less invasive, while still being useful.

Nursie3• 1 year ago

Is this just an american thing/model?

I have a Bosch Series 6 dishwasher here in Australia. It has physical buttons for all the stuff he mentions - Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco, and Delay start.

I did connect it to wifi which allows me to ... do the same stuff from their app. It's next to useless in my use pattern of "load the dishwasher, run the dishwasher". Literally all it adds is the ability to more easily set the machine to run later, which I don't care about.

I love Bosch stuff and will continue to buy it, certainly their series 6 and 8 stuff that's made in Germany - great quality and reliable IMHO.

Honestly it seems like there's just been a poor design decision here, to export the full set of controls to an app rather than on the machine, rather than some sort of fundamental sin. It certainly raises questions of what happens if/when they drop support, but another poster below mentions that the app works locally after initial cloud setup. Maybe just avoid this model...

inferiorhuman2• 1 year ago

The previous generation of Bosch dishwashers in the US were WiFi free. The current generation went through a round of cost cutting and added WiFi bullshit to everything. No idea what the state is of their appliances sold in other markets.

As far as I can tell Electrolux is the only manufacturer selling "dumb" laundry kit in the US these days… which is probably part of why everyone's favorite LG shills (Yale Appliance) does their best to ignore them.

sebazzz• 1 year ago

Literally all it adds is the ability to more easily set the machine to run later, which I don't care about.

Funny, that is a single physical button on my Siemens dishwasher.

jbm• 1 year ago

Literally have a Bosch dishwasher that has none of this Wifi garbage. It is amazing and super low sound compared to the 10 year old one that self destructed and nearly wrecked my basement bedroom (and the electrical panel).

Strongly recommended, would buy it again - as long as they don't have any insane IoT garbage included.

jajko2• 1 year ago

Yeah with most appliances its... not smart to go for highest of their ranges. Way too many functionalities crammed into 1 device just to justify much higher price. All want to be online to do what... pester you with notifications and updates?

I love Bosch, all the stuff we have from them works perfectly many years after buying. Similar for Siemens. But for me - AEG, Whirlpool and Electrolux are the crappiest of the crappiest stuff I've experienced, those brands are banned at my home.

But there is the trick - go for highest offline-only range, which is normally in the middle or just above middle of the range. Best value for money. Plus I couldn't care less of some online features, don't need them, hate them, its just a ticking bomb regardless of manufacturer.

Same as recently discussed here Samsung HW-Q990D surround soundbar update bricking the devices for some. Why the heck would I ever want to update surround speakers which work perfectly fine now? Some sort of OCD out of hands? They never add anything important with such updates, and the general risk is not worth doing it. Plus avoiding not-another-stupid-app-in-phone syndrome.

boringg2• 1 year ago

Totally different experience. Bosch dish washer 800 series - fantastic, clean and quiet. No need for wireless if i don’t want it and no blocked features.

Have other appliances - well made, sturdy and made to last. I wont say it was the cheapest option but i typically pay for a balance of quality, value and privacy.

fransje269• 1 year ago

Yes, but that's the $400-more-expensive model they mention in the article, with the 7 segment display. Which is a model at least 40% more expensive than the 500 series they bought.

forgetfreeman5• 1 year ago

Bosch dishwasher here. Zero network connectivity of any kind and washes dishes better than any other non-industrial dishwasher I've ever used. 10/10, would recommend, will buy again.

bee_rider3• 1 year ago

Bosch dishwasher here. Zero network connectivity of any kind

Absolutely bullshit. If you are a dishwasher without any network connectivity, how are you posting comments on the internet, Mr Bosch?

Arrowmaster• 1 year ago

According to Wirecutter, they pulled Bosch from their recommendations after all the old models were pulled and this new line of WiFi connected dishwashers replaced them in 2023.

You would really purchase something based on past experience with the company, not caring about looking into the current state of what they are producing?

fransje269• 1 year ago

Which model are you using, for future reference?

Svip2• 1 year ago

These days, Bosch is wholly owned by Siemens. And their appliances are basically the same. Except Bosch is now their experimental branch, where they try out ideas for products. Only those that are successful become Siemens products. So uhm, just buy a Siemens dishwasher, it's unlikely to have an app requirement.

eisa01• 1 year ago

Also Gaggenau and NEFF are BSH group brands

They all use HomeConnect

https://www.bsh-group.com/

szszrk• 1 year ago

That's completely the other way around and soothsaying :) BSH is a separate entity created 60 years ago by both companies but now fully owned by Bosch.

Bosch and Siemens had a joint venture since like 1960's. Around a decade ago Siemens sold out their BSH part of the company to Bosch completely and Bosch still makes some equipment under that brand. Yet still Siemens exist and is completely independent company.

Such joint ventures were not unlikely events for companies in that space in Europe. Siemens had parts of the company separated more often. Nokia Siemens Networks is kind of big (they ditched the Siemens name a decade ago), Nokia Siemens had briefly been know for cell phones for instance, Fujitsu Siemens did IT Enterprise hardware and software, PDAs and similar (here Fujitsu also took over and ditched Siemens part of the name).

Your buying advice ain't better than the guy's that sold that dishwasher to Jeff.

tchalla4• 1 year ago

It’s there other way around. Robert Bosch acquired the stake in Siemens. So Bosch owns Siemens.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140923104028/http://www.rttnew...

vladvasiliu3• 1 year ago

This is likely a model number related issue. I have a Siemens, which, as I understand it, is a Bosch with different styling, since none of these brands actually make the appliances, they're just lending their brand to a separate manufacturer (which is still in Germany FWIW). It also has the "home connect" app.

I have none of these issues. I have a dedicated button for delayed start on the front of the dishwasher. Dedicated "machine care" button. Not sure what the "rinse cycle" is, so I don't know if it has it, but there's a special rinsing-related button on the front that does something that prolongs the cycle. It also has a dedicated "half load" button. It has buttons for every "useful" cycle, like "eco" which is automatically selected when I turn it on. It's also able to go to a menu of sorts where I can configure water hardness, the quantity of rinsing liquid I want (separately from the hardness setting) and some other things I forgot.

The machine was bought new a little less than two years ago and does have the wifi and bluetooth and whatnot. It's also the only appliance I know which supports 5 GHz wifi. The manual also tries to get you to install the app, but it's not needed.

mgraupner• 1 year ago

Bosch and Siemens produce home appliances through B(osch)S(iemens)H Hausgeräte GmbH (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausgeräte). They are not lending their brand to another manufacturer.

latexr• 1 year ago

Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two

Where do you live? Pretty sure that in the EU they’d have to take it back, for any reason, if it’s not been 14 days yet. Though the no packaging could pose an issue, yeah.

account4218• 1 year ago

14 days no-question returns are only for online orders. In-store pickups have different (local) rules.

fransje269• 1 year ago

I will high-jack this top-rated comment to link to a comment further below.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297

This comment has a link to [0], explaining, in plain text:

  However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.

[0] https://trmm.net/homeconnect/

kevincox2• 1 year ago

They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key

What does my offline dishwasher need a long-lived authorization key for?

thih9• 1 year ago

Cool. I’d still prefer a “no wifi” or even “no app” mode, and control everything via hardware buttons.

Hardware offline UX gives me hope that my data would not be sold or that I wouldn’t have to pay for an extra subscription or watch ads. Perhaps it’s correlation.

Still, “no cloud” is a step in the right direction; I’ll take it.

pashadee• 1 year ago

“ In no-cloud mode the only way to interact with the devices is through their app, and an app isn’t always the most convenient way to interact with devices in the home.”

js22• 1 year ago

Jeff mentions it in the post:

Another third option is somebody has reverse engineered this protocol and built HCPY, a Home Connect Python library.
But here's the problem: I already spent like four hours getting this dishwasher installed in my kitchen. I don't want to spend another four hours configuring my own web UI for it—which still requires at least a one-time connection through Home Connect!—and maintaining that as a service on my local network, relying on an unauthorized third party library using reverse-engineering to get at the private dishwasher API!

DavideNL• 1 year ago

...how long is "long-live" ?

We've all been there. It works, until the shareholders decide differently, and you can no longer use your dishwasher without connecting / agreeing to the terms.

JohnFen3• 1 year ago

That's an improvement, but the requirement to use an app is still a serious problem, even if it never phones home. Everything should be able to be done on the appliance itself. Installing an app should never be a requirement.

modo_mario• 1 year ago

I'd leave a bad review on the store as well.

LinuxBender2• 1 year ago

I just had a similar issue with action cameras. My options are GoPro overheats and short battery life, DJI app banned in the store that I would not use regardless, insta360 / akaso which appear to both be the same shell companies and their camera can't even activate without an app despite the vendor promising otherwise. Returned and one starred all that junk. I would like to find a true stand-alone professional fully functional action camera with stabilization, long battery life and built by pros. Without exception I will not use anything that requires a phone or wifi and I don't care how big it is. Even if it's a 200,000 pound excavator, it will be on their doorstep if it requires a phone or wifi some are going this direction and one way or another they will be paying for shipping and my time.

k31n_n4m3• 1 year ago

The Sony RX0 II is a normal camera in an action cam form factor, no app required. Battery life is only about 30 minutes but you can swap batteries.

account4218• 1 year ago

Note that Bosh in this case is a brand of BSH Hausgeräte so if you have reason to boycott them you probably also want to boycott their other home appliance brands, including Siemens and more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausger%C3%A4te#Appliance_...

jmyeet• 1 year ago

This type of comment is common, unfortunately. It amounts to "Don't use [thing] because of [anecdote]".

Bosch, in particular, is highly regarded. They also have a wide range. I bought an 800 series 2-3 years ago. I went online to see if anything had changed. You still find the same options: front controls, top controls, different finishes, etc. You can still absolutely buy a dishwasher with manual controls. They're excellent products.

Now my model seems to be before Wifi was added although I did buy an LG washer and dryer that has Wifi, which I did actually try and set up and failed. The code and stack in these things is truly awful. AFAICT I couldn't get it to work because my home network is segmented with 2 Wifi access points. Each of them broadcasts my Wifi network on the same SSID with the same credentials so devices use whichever one has the best signal. It doesn't always move routers so it's not as good as, say, a Ubiquiti network, but it's good enough.

Anyway, the washer/dryer listed my Wifi network 3 times and failed to connect to it for reasons I never established. The error message was a generic "authorization failed". I think it might've had something to do with DHCP. Possibly my address range or DNS servers. Weirdly, it would connect via a phone hotspot just fine. In the end I gave up.

But the point is that the washer/dryer work just fine without Wifi and although I don't have a Wifi-enabled Bosch dishwasher, I very much suspect they do too. Your comment says "it needs to use their website for some functions". What functions, exactly? Would that be notifications for when a load is done? If so, that makes perfect sense. But I bet the dishwasher worked just fine without Wifi.

geerlingguy14• 1 year ago

In the linked article, it lists the 6 modes that will not work without the WiFi connection, including Eco mode, Rinse, Self clean, Delayed start, and Half mode.

dukeyukey• 1 year ago

Genuinely, what about my dishwasher would I want to control from my phone? The only operations I do on it are turn it on (redundant because I need to load it first, which needs me to be there) and check if it's done, mostly redundant because it's not a time-sensitive operation.

mavhc• 1 year ago

Don't people read manuals before spending $$$ on things? Or is that just me

e40• 1 year ago

Was all set to purchase a Bosch and the local shopsaid their quality has plummeted in recent years, recommend a Meile for the same price. Was told they get far fewer repair requests with this brand.

davidee• 1 year ago

Wirecutter (NYT) would agree: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash...

Requisite archive.ph link: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash...

ddoolin• 1 year ago

If you can afford it, Miele is definitely the way to go. The premium is quite high but IME you're buying the product, not just the brand.

usefulcat• 1 year ago

That's a shame, we've bought two Bosch dishwashers (two different houses). The second one is 12 years old and still working. Had to replace the pump once, although that problem was almost certainly caused by sediment in our water lines.

I like that they've been quiet and reliable, the reliability affirmed by the repair person that replaced the pump.

samspot• 1 year ago

I bought a Bosch dishwasher about a year ago and didn't experience any of this. Maybe it depends on the model?

chasd00• 1 year ago

I think I had this dishwasher or one similar. The control board went out and the cost to replace it was more than a brand new dishwasher. I got a new cheaper dishwasher with fewer features/buttons/connectivity but it washes the dishes just as well. It also works.

MarkusWandel3• 1 year ago

I have this exact dishwasher. To connect the app to it you have to go through a cloud account, but to its credit, you can turn the cloud connection off afterward and the app will then only talk to it through local wifi.

The dishwasher answers on SSH port 22. I suspect that the app's direct connection uses this and exchanges credentials via the initial cloud setup (so no cloud, no app connection either way).

I've found one useful feature not mentioned in the manual at all, that depend on the app: Popping the door open at the start of the drying cycle ("Efficient Dry" or something like that) vs. the end of it ("Auto Air"). Since changing this setting, plastic stuff is noticeably drier after letting it run into the night and then sitting open for the rest of the night. Stuff with higher thermal inertia (metal, porcelain, glass) is always dry except for the inevitable puddles at the top of upside-down mugs.

Actually I think you also need the app to run only the extra hot final rinse (for better drying) whereas "Sanitize" on the machine's UI runs the whole wash hotter.

The first thing it did after connecting it to the app/cloud was install a 70MB (!) software update. On a dishwasher.

Anyway I was not going to connect it to the cloud. But it flaked alarmingly. It would just sit there, blinking its red light, unresponsive to anything but power off, and there was no way to ask it what was wrong. Since the software update it has not done this, knock on wood.

The manual, btw, also doesn't mention this: If you do reset it via 4 second power button press, it does not go catatonic forever. It just sits there for 30+ seconds with all lights on and unresponsive. But then it does finish the reset. I'd previously run out of patience and unplugged it by then.

If you do RTFM you'll find that most of the features, e.g. how much rinse aid to dispense, are available through the machine's UI through deeply unintuitive keystroke sequences. But not all of them (like the mentioned delayed start).

I don't use the machine all that much, so a 20+ year lifetime is possible. Will the app and cloud still function then? I'd like to think yes - German companies are very customer service oriented. But we'll see. Whether the machine lasts that long and whether the app/cloud lasts that long. Keep in mind if you need the cloud to connect the app, you may have to do that every time you change phones.

One "feature" that this one has... with a 3:15h wash time (on the "auto" setting) it keeps things wet for so long that, say, rice starch comes off perfectly. On the previous, old, dishwasher it just got baked on really well by the hot dry cycle. Of course that dishwasher only took an hour, so you could run mutliple loads at the end of a big dinner evening. Win some, lose some.

nullify88• 1 year ago

Yes, I have the same one and I'm surprised the switch to disable it's Internet connectivity was missed and instead everyone's raging about IOT. The app is able to establish a local connection to the dishwasher and it's one of the few that can do this.

I'm very happy with the app. If you didn't already fetch electricity prices, it can display them in the app and automatically delay washing until it's cheapest. The dishwasher can also be extended by downloading additional wash programs.

It seems to be well thought out. LGs app in comparison is absolute pants and has no option for local connectivity.

comrade1234• 1 year ago

My toilet has Bluetooth. It sometimes crashes. I assume the logfiles are full.

pico303• 1 year ago

Literally paid more so I didn’t need the app. Cost of doing business in 2025.

nyarlathotep_• 1 year ago

What happens when whatever stupid services this thing relies on stop working/get abandoned?

Related: Is "Internet of Shit" still a thing?

_carbyau_3• 1 year ago

For fear of becoming a one line repeater:

It's kind of amazing that capitalism can go so far as to make customers want to opt out and build their fucking own...

cyanydeez3• 1 year ago

capitalism is like fiefdoms with more steps. Since the US and some other countries just refuse to regulate monopolies, the power they wield to enforce rediculous hoops is unlimited.

Havoc• 1 year ago

Dishwashers and washing machine have really enshitified at warp speed.

Parents used to have them for decades plus. The last dishwasher my landlord put in made it about 6 month. Build quality feels like soda can alu

Basically disposable now

TheDudeMan• 1 year ago

Jeff didn't mention whether Consumer Reports discussed this problem. If not, they also deserve blame.

dbg31415• 1 year ago

Like, sure—I can download a new ringtone for my dishwasher… but you know what the dumbest thing about internet-connected appliances is?

I still can’t set my oven clock without doing some weird finger kung-fu combo. Why? WHY?? Why can’t it just sync with my phone or, I don’t know, the internet—like literally every other clock on every other device does now?

And don’t even get me started on the range hood. Why can’t I have the light turn on automatically, say, an hour after sundown? Or have the fan kick in when the gas turns on? That would actually be useful! But nope—no timer, no automation. The only feature my Wi-Fi-enabled range hood has is pure, unfiltered disappointment.

Or take my fridge. Why can’t it send me a photo of what’s inside while I’m at the grocery store? Or tell me how often (and when) I open the door every day? I know it’s tracking that data—just show me a copy instead of feeding it straight to Zuck!

Honestly, the features these things come with right now are all pretty much useless. And the worst part? Leaving them connected means someone could just push a kill command one day that bricks my garbage disposal. “Oh, profits are down this quarter? Time to end-of-life that model from 6 months ago!”

nkurz4• 1 year ago

I recently bought and installed the same dishwasher. I also don't like the app requirement to access some features. But contrary to some of the other comments, I feel the need point out that it's still a fully functional dishwasher even if you never connect it to Wifi.

You will miss out on a few "advanced" features, but it washes dishes really well. I read the manual before I bought it, and I got the performance I expected. I would have preferred to have access to a rinse cycle and a cleaning mode, but I don't need them. It definitely gets my dishes much cleaner than the old failing one I replaced, and I have no complaints so far about its performance.

A few more notes while I'm here:

Yes, partially unscrew the front legs with a wrench before you put it in place. They are too tight. Partially adjust the rear leg before you put it in too. The diagram is confusing and may not adjust the leg in the direction you think it will. I wonder if this is what happened to Jeff.

The dishwasher apparently will refuse to connect to a Wifi network without a password. For mostly philosophical reasons I don't want to add a password to my network, and this is part of the reason I haven't connected it.

Note that the Costco version (at least in my area) is a subtly different model that does not include the automatic door opening "Auto Air" feature. Since this is one of the best features of this model, you should not buy it from Costco unless you verify it comes with this.

The "touchless" buttons are annoying. It frequently beeps and comes to life when I'm just trying to open the door. The interface as a whole isn't great, and I sometimes worry it's not set correctly. But once you figure it out, it will wash your dishes quietly and effectively.

Aurornis2• 1 year ago

But contrary to some of the other comments, I feel the need point out that it's still a fully functional dishwasher even if you never connect it to Wifi.

Thanks. Some of the other comments are implying that they’re missing something important without WiFi but nobody seems to want to explain what’s missing.

Can you explain what features are missing without the WiFi connection?

AshamedCaptain• 1 year ago

It says options with an asterisk—including Rinse, Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco, and Delay start, are "available through Home Connect app only and depending on your model."

nkurz4• 1 year ago

I think this manual page shows what's available with and without the app: https://www.manua.ls/bosch/shx65cm5n/manual?p=5

Available cycles from the buttons: Heavy, Auto, Normal, Speed 60, Favorite

Available options from the buttons: Auto Air, Sanitize

Additional cycles from the app: Rinse, Machine Care

Additional options from the app: Halfload, Eco, Delay

I believe that with the app you can set one of the additional cycles to be the "Favorite" button, but I haven't tried this.

jer0me• 1 year ago

I'm curious—what are the philosophical reasons for not having a password on your network?

uselesswords3• 1 year ago

Gratuitously, maybe he has a device that can’t connect to WiFi network with a password. Realistically, probably just laziness. Neither of these are philosophical though…

nkurz4• 1 year ago

It's a mixture of things, some philosophical and some practical.

I live in a very rural area with poor cell phone coverage. I'm happy to provide a WiFi signal for the lost people who are in front of my house trying to figure out why their GPS has led them here. We get a few each year, because Google Maps shows the road past my house going through while in reality it's closed in winter.

I also like it that I don't need to play the "what's the password" game with houseguests. I like that I don't need to input passwords to screenless devices using clumsy and slow input methods. I like the idea that the default should be sharing what you can afford to share rather than keeping everything private by except by special arrangement.

More generally, I don't think that closed networks substantially improve security and I don't like the push to require them. It's great to have the option to keep people off of your network through passwords or MAC filtering, but I don't like it being the default. I don't like technology that tries to enforce its own opinion about social norms.

Contrary to the other poster, it's not laziness. At this point it's frequently more difficult to host an open network than a password protected one. It might not be a good idea, but it's a conscious choice.

AndyKelley• 1 year ago

I wrote https://andrewkelley.me/post/why-we-cant-have-nice-software.... after going through a similar process - used Consumer Reports, and then purchased exactly the one pictured in the blog article.

conductr• 1 year ago

I’m at the point where shopping for any equipment from toaster to car/home, this is the primary thing I’m looking for first before purchasing is I need to know exactly how it works/operates. Everything is Wi-Fi enabled and smart but I need to be sold that I can operate it without connecting it. And if I can’t use the core features, the way dumb equipment would have worked, then it’s an immediate no go. I don’t care about most of the extra smart features I never had before on most things.

There are a few exceptions of course. Where remote access is a major value add. Home security systems, garage doors, deadbolts, etc fall into that cohort but that’s about it so far.

WorldPeas• 1 year ago

At what point will we grow tired of this and make open standards for control of these appliances like comma, where one can buy an established unit and modify it with a microcontroller. I know there are jokes about the quirks of open source hardware and software, but what if the alternative is almost as bad

apricot• 1 year ago

I am so glad I saw this today! I am in the market for a new dishwasher and was about to buy a Bosch tomorrow on the strength of online reviews. Not anymore! And you bet I will be asking to read the user's manual before buying, to make sure the manufacturer isn't trying similar shenanigans.

65• 1 year ago

This is very stereotypical Hacker News blog post.

The only thing is, you know you can, like, buy a dishwasher that doesn't connect to Wifi?

At this point some things are better with bluetooth/wifi. The laundry machine in my building connects via Bluetooth to an app and I can pay for my laundry using it. Do you realize how much better that is than having to go to the bank every few weeks (during work because of course the bank hours are 10-4 these days), get a bunch of quarters, and use them to wash my clothing?

I guess the point is there's more nuance to the HN kneejerk reaction to "Internet of things bad" - some things are easier, some things are dumb marketing gimmicks that quickly die off. Ultimately the market sorts itself out. If people don't want to use an app for their dishwasher, manufacturers will stop making them. Remember 3D TVs?

imp0cat• 1 year ago

It's a proven recipe that will boost your blog's rankings.

1. Buy dishwasher that requires wifi 2. Complain loudly that said dishwasher requires wifi 3. Post on HN

poincaredisk4• 1 year ago

The laundry machine in my building connects via Bluetooth to an app and I can pay for my laundry using it.

Excuse my ignorance but do you... pay to do laundry in your own home? I must be misunderstanding something because it sounds like some dystopian late stage capitalism thing. If I actually understood you correctly, can't you get a dishwasher that doesn't require paying?

endgame• 1 year ago

GP is probably in a building with shared laundry facilities.

theryan• 1 year ago

This is extremely common in apartment buildings with shared washers & dryers.

budro2• 1 year ago

I work on embedded appliance software at my job. A few comments:

It's quite easy to find yourself having non-zero boot times for some unfortunate reasons. At least in my org, the software as a whole is RAM/ROM constrained rather than speed constrained. Even when you're this close to bare metal, devs tend to write over-abstracted code riddled with inefficiencies. And of course most people don't profile the application at all. This is a symptom of the software being under-tested imo. I have personally written tooling to integration test the whole application for a few appliances, and for one appliance initializing the application 56 times took over 1 second. On a modern machine it should take milliseconds. After profiling I found that 99%+ of our time was spent servicing a subscription tied to all events, that really only needed to subscribe to just one or two.

Along with that there are other reasons for long apparent boot up times:

- Waiting for other boards to connect and talk to each other. Your UI can't do anything until it knows the state from the main control.

- Randomized delays to prevent current surges after a blackout. You'll see this on ACs or other appliances that might have hundreds of identical units in a building.

- Waiting for flash memory to be readable

All of this adds up to seconds of boot time. Yet ultimately none of this matters to the business people because we're an appliance company, NOT a software company. Our software is mostly incidental to having a functioning product, and boot times could go way higher without the business being worried. Though recently yes, we have entered the data market hence the push for smart features. Word to the wise, avoid any appliance with Android in it if you don't like the idea of forced connected features!

I unfortunately don't have any solutions to most of the problems presented in the article. All I can do is continue to try writing bullet-proof software and push back against forced connected features.

coldpie2• 1 year ago

I'm sorry for shitting on your job, but it seems like the solution is to bring back the buttons we had in the 80s and 90s and drop all the software garbage? I don't want a UI, I want an On button.

tartoran• 1 year ago

You will probably find the ones you like with simple interfaces and a few physical buttons for an additional price. Simple things are now premium.

budro2• 1 year ago

It's fine, I take every opportunity I can to shit on my own job lol.

Ironically what you're looking for can be found in the lowest end, and the highest end products. Low end means low features, so you can get away with just a knob and maybe a few LEDs. Look at Hotpoint (GE's low end brand) or a low end LG washer [0].

High end usually forgoes a flashy UI as well since it's about the style and being a centerpiece.

The mid end is where it's weird because features justify the extra cost. In order to make those available you need to have an LCD screen and more buttons.

In all these categories you'll run into software though. It's cheaper than a electro-mechanical solution. We only fall back to the old ways when required for safety/compliance.

[0] https://www.homedepot.com/p/324433017

kennu• 1 year ago

I'm really happy with my Bosch washing machine's WiFi. Getting a notification to the phone when the wash cycle is complete is something I wouldn't give up now, since I don't hear the beeping to upstairs. I also wish I'd get notifications from the dish washer, but it's an old model that still works and it's hard to justify replacing it yet.

I also have no clue what all the physical buttons on the washing machine's control panel do, but it's easy to configure the wash program using the phone app whenever something special is needed. I wish I had the same kind of remote control for the dish washer, since its buttons are also pretty much undecipherable.

The actual Home Connect Android app is not great though. Could be simplified and cleaned up of unnecessary cruft.

someonehere• 1 year ago

I bought an LG a few years ago and connected it to WiFi. I have no idea what I need to program for special wash cycles, but it’s nice getting a notification on my watch when a load is done or having issues.

ahaucnx• 1 year ago

This is not only a problem with dishwashers, but a general trend with many electronic devices.

We see the same in the air quality monitoring industry, where more and more manufacturers lockdown their devices and make them cloud only operable. We at AirGradient are open source hardware (and can run completely local) and we are very successful with it. So things like this are actually opening up the market for new entrants or existing companies to highlight the benefits of non-cloud models for the consumers.

So I do hope that these kind of post like from Jeff Geerling create more awareness also among the normal consumers to change their buying behavior and bulk that trend.

bandrami2• 1 year ago

I live in an apartment building whose walls don't really attenuate RF at all. And like most of the building I have a Samsung "smart" TV. So most evenings I get three or four screencast requests from neighbors' phones that I have to deny. That's annoying enough but it also stops whatever I'm watching in the process.

The manual didn't include instructions for turning off Bluetooth, and when I called Samsung they said you in fact can't turn it off. I could simply pull the antenna, I guess, but it seems to be integrated with the WiFi so then I couldn't watch any streaming.

I ended up changing the BT device name to "STOP USING THIS ONE" but apparently nobody reads it because I still get the connection requests daily.

dewey• 1 year ago

I’d probably just turn off Bluetooth / WiFi and get a setup box like Apple TV, Roku etc. which usually is much nicer than the TV OS anyway. The only time I’m interacting with my TVs UI is when I’m switching input channels.

vanc_cefepime• 1 year ago

Ditto. AppleTV or Nvidia Shield (with custom launcher). Personally, I'm now in with AppleTV. I had two Shields and hated when they pushed an update a few years ago to stock android that pushed ads (to services I didn't subscribe to) and that was it for me. There werent as many custom launchers as there are nowadays, but still, went to AppleTv and have been happy. That said, I'd stay clear with Roku with their latest shenanigans as they continue to test their customer's limits with ads now on their home screen [1]. Granted this is on their TV sets, I would still stay clear of their dedicated set-top boxes as it's only a matter of time when they push their limits there too [2].

[1] <https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/03/roku-says-unpopular-...>

[2] <https://wiki.rossmanngroup.com/wiki/Roku,_Inc.>

cocoto• 1 year ago

Simply rename the device “malware” at this point.

mock-possum• 1 year ago

It wouldn’t make a difference

Terr_2• 1 year ago

I live in an apartment building whose walls don't really attenuate RF at all.

I wonder if there's a market for special panels that block sound and common wifi/bluetooth bands...

So most evenings I get three or four screencast requests from neighbors' phones that I have to deny. That's annoying enough but it also stops whatever I'm watching in the process.

I'd be tempted to call support every single time, and feign that I simply can't understand why their product that I purchased keeps breaking...

felindev• 1 year ago

LTT made a video [0] where they tried "5G blocking paint" in real world scenario, this is always an option if you like black.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5BOFsiDpYQ

ghssds• 1 year ago

Did you try to talk to your neighbours?

bandrami2• 1 year ago

I have no way of knowing which one it is, and I can't get to the floors above and below mine

poincaredisk4• 1 year ago

So most evenings I get three or four screencast requests from neighbors' phones that I have to deny

What happens if you accept it? Do you just see your neighbors screen? This sounds like something terrifying enough to convince your neighbors to pay attention.

smileybarry5• 1 year ago

I reinstalled a BLE inspect app to troubleshoot something, and I was shocked at the sheer amount of Samsung TVs (and I own none) I had to wade through to find my device. The fact they're all in discoverable mode at all times makes opening my regular Bluetooth just as bad, too.

athrowaway3z• 1 year ago

Once the manufacturer decides to add remote controls, its not clear to me a better solution currently exists.

AFAIK Android gives you some freedom wrt notifications, but Apple demands all notifications go through a service.

This is all before we talk about the support nightmare of average people not understanding why they can't connect to their dishwasher when away from home, or what the proper security model should be.

TheEaterOfSouls• 1 year ago

I have a slightly different perspective, though in principle I agree with this sentiment.

I'm totally blind. Last year I bought an Instant Pot (multi-function pressure cooker) because it's well past time I start cooking for myself. There are numerous models available on Amazon, and I had no idea which ones would have tactile controls (I think this was before Amazon introduced their LLM thing, and I'm unsure if it would've helped in any case, or just hallucinated and caused me to buy something I couldn't use). Could've waited until I had a sighted person around or available online to look at pictures, but that's beside the point.

So I ended up spending an extra $50 for the "Pro Plus" model, which is WiFi-enabled. Apparently a previous model connected to phones directly via bluetooth (that model is no longer supported) and that's what I was hoping/expecting would be the case here as well. Unfortunately it only uses bluetooth for the initial setup. So, after creating yet another account with my real email address, registering the device, and waiting several minutes for who knows what (firmware download?) it's connected to the internet and seems to be controlled indirectly by the phone app through their API. So yeah, that company probably logs when, where, how, and maybe even what I cook, for how long, because why the hell not?

My point, though, is that for the moment, at least I can use this device. I'm well aware that this may not be the case long-term; the app has already had one update that made accessibility much worse, the company could stop supporting this model as well, or the internet could go down. The app and the device occasionally get out of sync, resulting in quite a bit of wasted time. But if I were using buttons on the device itself, the best I could hope for would be to memorize menus and the temperature dial and whatnot. In practice, that would probably be less tedious than having to pause while cooking, clean my hands and use my phone, but for now, at least theoretically, I can use all the features of the device via the app. Barring that, the logical solution would be to just connect directly via bluetooth, as was done previously, but then I wouldn't need to create an account, and we can't have that. Maybe there are/were better options on the market, but product listings seem to just say things like "WiFi-enabled", "App-Controled", or "IoT" without defining exactly what that means, and "customer support" will either be a chatbot that tells me what I want to hear and then claims to contact a human who will never get back to me, or a human following a script who doesn't understand my requirements even after I state them clearly, and probably doesn't even know what they're actually selling. Wonderful world we live in. Incidentally, I do actually need to get myself a dishwasher one of these days, and it's almost certainly going to be the same deal.

BrenBarn• 1 year ago

Any device which can ever connect to the internet should have a big red warning label like the ones on cigarettes. People would know to discount this warning if they're buying a device they know they want to connect to the internet.

ekianjo2• 1 year ago

We don't have 1.5 hours every night to spend hand-washing dishes (not to mention the water bill!).

Where is that bizarre conception that washing dishes by hands ends up wasting more water? If anything it's the other way around.

brewdad• 1 year ago

Nope. A modern dishwasher uses 2-3 gallons per load. If your dishwasher has Eco modes or a half-cycle mode, you can use even less. A typical kitchen faucet will deliver 2 gallons per minute. If you run your faucet for longer than that, and most people absolutely will, you are wasting water by hand washing.

globular-toast• 1 year ago

These arguments justifying dishwashers are silly. How expensive is your water that this small saving is going to offset the cost of electricity and the appliance itself? You use a dishwasher because you're lazy, not because of efficiency or cost benefits. It's OK to just say. I hate washing dishes too.

1.5 hours a day and a high water bill is a ridiculous exaggeration, though. Like with anything, the more you do it the better you get at it. I wash dishes currently because I don't have a dishwasher. It takes 10-20 minutes tops, and my water bill is lower than my internet bill (and much lower than internet + various media subscription services that I don't need).

ekianjo2• 1 year ago

you are wasting water by hand washing.

that depends entirely how you hand-wash your dishes. There is not a single way to do it.

A modern dishwasher uses 2-3 gallons per load

Maybe, but then you have to factor that the quality of the rinsing has nothing to do with hand-washing. I'd prefer my plates without traces of detergents.

taspeotis• 1 year ago

Not a huge fan of internet-of-shit but we have a similar Bosch dishwasher and it’s totally operable without wifi. I don’t think there is anything advertised to us that can’t be done by just pushing the buttons.

The smart stuff seems acceptably done: I can start cycles on my phone, it can be configured with the off-peak times for our power supply and automatically delay the overnight wash until then, I get a push notification on my Apple Watch to tell me to open the door to help drying, there are more program cycles you can download (which is the complaint here - should be more cycles on the machine).

And there is this useless feature where you can tell it you’ve bought, say, 90 dishwasher tablets and it will count down the tablets each wash and warn you when you need to buy more.

I say useless because you literally see how many tablets you have left when you fish them out of the box but still it felt like they tried to add some electronic smarts that made sense?

So yeah TL;DR works fine without wifi, with wifi you get some practical but otherwise ignorable functionality.

udev4096• 1 year ago

Do VLANs really provide total isolation? Are there any attacks that still work for breaking out of a VLAN? Just like there is always a way to break out of a sandbox?

avidiax• 1 year ago

It depends on how the VLAN tagging is applied.

If the rule is that everything from a 2nd SSID has the VLAN applied, that's pretty secure.

If the rule is that things with a particular MAC address have the VLAN applied, that depends on the device not spoofing another MAC address.

And if your rule is that already tagged traffic is left as-is, then a device can tag its own traffic with another VLAN.

dan_can_code• 1 year ago

Damn it Bosch. They usually make great tools and appliances and it looks like they're instead following the path of "subscribe for the basic features" scams.

I can't help but think my solution to this would be, to start hand washing the dishes, out of pure spite.

hommelix• 1 year ago

I've got a few Bosch appliances. I like the Bosch website where I can get spare parts [1]. When the door spring of my 15 years old dishwasher broke a couple of years ago, I went to the Bosch website, enters the model number and got an exploded view with all the parts. I ordered the spring and replaced it myself. A few minutes of work. Much faster than finding a repair guy with a free appointment slot. My Bosch washing machine has a WiFi label on it. Never connected it. Only using the buttons on the front panels. On the same website, you can get the instruction manual PDF, so I usually have a peek review in the manual of a device before buying. I don't know if that spare parts service is available everywhere but I have used it in 3 European country so far.

[1] https://www.bosch-home.com/de/produkte/ersatzteile

jansan• 1 year ago

I think if you have on of their models with a display at the front you can use all functions without connecting to WiFi.

jart• 1 year ago

Jeff, you left out the juiciest part of the story, which is that the Bosch Home Connect iPhone app hoovers up your Search History data. Anyone know how much that data is worth? I made the same mistake of buying the 500 and it's just so ridiculous that I need to reveal my most intimate Google moments to a dishwasher in order to use its advanced features which I won't. When I was building Internet technology in the 1990s and optimistic about the future, never in my fiercest nightmares could I have predicted that this is how normies would use it and that it'd be considered normal. What kind of monster do you have to be to use home appliances as leverage to spy on people? There seriously needs to be a different planet for people like us.

perch56• 1 year ago

There's a bit of a mix-up here. The “Search History Data – Not Linked with You” label you see on the App Store refers only to the searches you perform within the Home Connect app—not your full Google search history. Given that iOS apps run in a sandboxed environment, there's no way for the app to access your Google account. It’s a standard practice among smart home devices to enhance functionality, not to spy on your entire digital life.

pqdbr• 1 year ago

This is just unbelievable. However, can you provide evidence of this being true?

Because this is class action level unbelievable.

ikrenji• 1 year ago

it's not true and it's not technically feasible on iOS

DeathArrow• 1 year ago

Welcome to DaaS. Dishwashing as a Service.

kazinator• 1 year ago

Cloud should be an add-on.

I don't agree; dishwashers that connect to the Internet should not exist.

At most, a dishwasher's network connectivity should be restricted to the presence of firmware which serves a web UI. Everything should be doable via the web UI, whose commands should ideally be URL-driven, so they can be easily automated with simple requests.

A laser printer doesn't need to connect to the cloud; why does a dishwasher?

lqet• 1 year ago

After reading this post and the comment section, I am glad that I made the decision to keep the 1993 Miele dishwasher that was installed in the house we bought last year. We basically renovated the kitchen around it.

locallost• 1 year ago

I on the other hand do want connected appliances because this will allow automation to run them when e.g. there is a lot of electricity from the sun or wind, which is the future of electricity grids. A dishwasher is perfect for this because it basically runs daily, but most of the time you don't really need it to run at a very precise time.

As for expensive control boards for the old broken down machines, I found someone on eBay that repaired them and fixed my washing machine for 40. The control board is just a plastic box with cables running to it. Disconnect, take it out, mail it, and install it once you get it back. Fixed.

adamsrog• 1 year ago

I actually just purchased a Bosch 500 series two days ago to replace my piece of trash Samsung dishwasher that stopped working. Supposed to be delivered in a week. Was deciding between Bosch and Kitchenaid based on recommendations. This kind of crap in appliances is so annoying. I will cancel my order from Home Depot and get something else. Thank you for this very timely post.

coldpie2• 1 year ago

If a home appliance is wifi enabled, just don't buy it. Full stop. This reduces your options, but at least you'll end up with a product that actually functions.

meling• 1 year ago

Kind of related. I gave my dad my old iPhone years ago, and when he bought a new car, the car’s app was unsupported on his phone’s version of iOS. He ended up having to get a new phone as well as a new car. (It’s nice to start heating up the car before leaving the office.)

I can imagine the same happening with connected appliances. You have to get a new phone to talk to your old dishwasher because the vendor updated the app to only work on the newest phones.

BrunoBernardino• 1 year ago

I've been thinking for a while about building a directory of sorts of product categories and products that are "dumb" (not connected to the cloud, or don't require it to function). I've done a lot of research for some and have a list myself.

If anyone thinks that'd be interesting and have thoughts/comments/suggestions or just would want to know about it, you can find my email in my profile and I'd love to hear from you!

(New) "dumb" cars are just impossible to find nowadays, unfortunately.

ideasarecool• 1 year ago

Can't wait till my clothes iron will start needing security updates.

jmward01• 1 year ago

I want fun features, but my trust in these companies not to abuse that is -1000% (I minored in math). The company and Consumer Reports need to be blasted here. Yes, Consumer Reports. This is a lemon of a feature. They should be warning people that you need a cloud account/app to use the advertised features and dropping the score on these things because that is clearly not consumer friendly and will lead to features being unavailable when the company decides to turn them off. Oh, and they definitely are selling your info to someone so there is that.

agent86• 1 year ago

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a minute and ask a question:

Does anyone know exactly what the Bosch service sends the dishwasher?

While I agree that connecting a dishwasher to the Internet should not be necessary, it does open the door to an interesting scenario if what gets sent to the dishwasher is not a command to run a mode but an actual program to control the dishwasher. In theory that would mean that Bosch could alter the programs that get sent to improve the dishwasher over time.

On a dishwasher with no connectivity the modes simply are what they are from the factory. But on a connected dishwasher if the Bosch engineers figure out that when in ECO mode using every third sprayer saves water while not altering the cleaning performance expected of that mode, they can update the payload and make the dishwasher you already have even more efficient. They could also in theory create a whole library of modes for specific use cases or scenarios (All glass, hard water, etc.)

Of course, this has potential drawbacks as well. They could change a mode and alter behavior you expect, and it could potentially be a hacker's playground, but if done well it could be a net positive.

culturestate2• 1 year ago

The idea of a manufacturer updating my appliance to be "more efficient" is fine, but updates should only be applied at my discretion and we already have several mechanisms for this that don't involve an always-on internet connection.

If they really want firmware updates for their dishwasher, they should give it Bluetooth or a USB port enabled by a special button combination and call it a day.

sirwhinesalot• 1 year ago

You know very well this is not what online connectivity is for. No need to play Devil's advocate, he's been found guilty and sentenced long ago.

shmeeed• 1 year ago

I'll just throw in that the Home Connect app comes at 700 MB. Why?!

TeMPOraL• 1 year ago

My personal take: no, I won't connect my dishwasher - or any other appliance - to your stupid cloud, nor will I use your dog-shit garbage app. I will, however, consider buying your "Internet of Shit"-enabled appliance, if I know there's a working integration for Home Assistant.

"Smart" features are nice when done well. Like e.g. through Home Assistant. Companies could make them that good, even better, but they all universally see IoT as a trick for plausibly-deniable planned obsolescence and to get people used to subscription model for home appliances. As a result, the apps are usually pile of garbage, slapped together on the cheap by some random outsourcing company.

aequitas• 1 year ago

Seems like this Home Connect stuff does support local only/no cloud mode[0]. I recently discovered my parent's kitchen hardware is all Bosch with Home Connect and was afraid I had to run it through their cloud. But there seems to be some decent effort done in getting it to work with Home Assistant[1].

[0] https://trmm.net/homeconnect/ [1] https://github.com/hcpy2-0/hcpy

fransje269• 1 year ago

This should really be the top answer.

From link [0]:

    However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.

js22• 1 year ago

Jeff mentions it in the post:

Another third option is somebody has reverse engineered this protocol and built HCPY, a Home Connect Python library.
But here's the problem: I already spent like four hours getting this dishwasher installed in my kitchen. I don't want to spend another four hours configuring my own web UI for it—which still requires at least a one-time connection through Home Connect!—and maintaining that as a service on my local network, relying on an unauthorized third party library using reverse-engineering to get at the private dishwasher API!

willyt• 1 year ago

I was quite surprised to discover that I couldn’t interact at all with my home battery without internet. I wanted to see how much power is left in it during a power cut but because in a power cut there’s no internet the app didn’t work. Interestingly the cell tower goes out after about two hours of power out and the landline goes after about 9 hours so I didn’t realise until quite far in that this would happen.

_1tem• 1 year ago

So this is what late stage capitalism looks like.

pkolaczk• 1 year ago

If it fails intermittently it’s very likely caused by cracked solder joints or dried out capacitors in the power supply. I bet this GE control board could be fixed cheaply - if it was old, it might even not use a switching mode power supply, but an old classical transformer + rectifier - those are trivial to fix and no special parts are needed.

The problem is though, there aren’t many electronic shops left which are able to do component level repair. Almost everybody replaces full modules, as it is much easier.

pachico• 1 year ago

I just spent €1,250 for an oven (the only one I could find that was 45cm in height and could cook with steam).

It works very well but I was horrified when I saw the message saying that "It required an urgent security update" and that it would download it from the cloud.

I feel we went too far.

nbzso• 1 year ago

Let's be clear. The industry plan for surveillance state is completely nuts. Expect toilets with AI analytical options over your feces and automatic report to your AI doctor. Transactional charges automatically included in your social scoring profile and carbon tax.

lcombaldieu• 1 year ago

That feeling when someone put the story on Louis Rossman wiki today https://wiki.rossmanngroup.com/wiki/Bosch_Cloud_Dishwasher_I...

Einenlum• 1 year ago

To use the "Eco" mode you need a smartphone and a router.

This is beyond cynical.

elzbardico2• 1 year ago

By the end of the day, most kitchen and laundry appliances are a bunch of electric motors, pumps, solenoids, compressors, resistances, buttons, switches, and sensors.

If this trend continues, we will have more and more people having bricked appliances as badly designed web services are inevitably sunset, as mobile apps without updates become incompatible with new versions of their phone OS and get delisted from App Stores by the manufactures. Or then, Wi-Fi standards will change, and the appliance won't be able to connect to the network unless you keep an obsolete and by then insecure hotspot just to serve it.

Given that, I wonder if there isn't going to be a business opportunity for creating after-market appliance controllers. Just a board that you can use to replace the one that came with your appliance, but without any factory-controlled web-service nonsense.

This is already a thing for split air-conditioner units. In fact, I even saved one with such an aftermarket board.

torginus3• 1 year ago

That's why all good ol devices have electromechanical cams instead of electronics.

A bonus is that high power MOSFETs have a tendency to crap out and relays have a limited lifetime of a given number of switches guaranteeing that eventually youll need to throw out your whole, otherwise basically flawless devices due to dead electronics.

stuff4ben• 1 year ago

So what's the "Speed Queen" equivalent for dishwashers and other home appliances?

chrisBob• 1 year ago

If you want your lights or music connected to the internet, I can understand that, but NO HEAT PRODUCING APPLIANCES SHOULD BE CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET. If someone wants to burn down your house, make them come over and do it the old fashioned way. Do not let them do it remotely from another country.

KomoD• 1 year ago

I can't, why would you want your lights connected to the internet?

bluehatman2• 1 year ago

If it takes you an hour and a half to wash a few dishes, you probably have a LOT more issues than this article describes....

bluehatman2• 1 year ago

If it takes you an "hour and a half" to wash a few dishes, I'd say you have bigger issues than what you're whining about here...

ANarrativeApe• 1 year ago

Once bitten, twice shy. It's a shame, I used to like Bosch.

(sighs, thinks back to simpler times, remembers all the other shit that's going on at the moment, and wonders 'just how big a tarriff PDT will slap on the Huns')

nelblu• 1 year ago

I am genuinely worried that when I am old there won't be anything that I could buy that would not be an enshittified device... until them I am going to keep hoarding what I can that would outlast my life.

torginus3• 1 year ago

my GE Amana dishwasher, it started having weird power issues, like the controls would just not light up unless I reset the circuit breaker for a few minutes

And they say EVs will outlast regular cars. On every piece of my home equipment, electronics failed before they developed mechanical issues.

Power electronics, especially capacitors, and high power switching elements don't have a great track record of reliability.

tredre3• 1 year ago

And they say EVs will outlast regular cars.

Regular/ICE cars are fully dependant on electronics too. When a board fails, the car stops working. There's really no difference.

torginus3• 1 year ago

True, but you can't really compare 12v low voltage ECUs/infotainment with 400/800V DC contactors and tons of high power/voltage caps/FETs in inverters

ubermonkey• 1 year ago

Fucking hell. Yeah, this 100%.

I'll go even further:

STOP PUTTING FIRMWARE IN THINGS THAT DON'T NEED FIRMWARE.

aurelien• 1 year ago

But Polythechnique, the French Militarian School will! \o/

eestrada• 1 year ago

Not a dishwasher story, but related. We bought a whirlpool washer and dryer set and hated them. The set was one of the few name brand models without WiFi "features" added on. But they were still terrible.

The one highlight is that we learned about the brand Speed Queen from the sales person at Lowe's. She talked them up as being the best, but they aren't sold at any big box store. Speed Queen is only sold through mom and pop shops.

When we dug in and did some research, we found that Speed Queen has the best consumer ratings by a wide margin.

They still produce a fixed drum model for the washer, like the type that whirlpool and maytag used to make decades ago. We put up with the whirlpool for a couple of years, but when we moved we got rid of them and bought a fixed drum style Speed Queen (look for the models marketed as "classic clean"). Best consumer appliance I've ever owned. I expect it to last at least another 20 years.

excalibur• 1 year ago

What should be done?

You should research your appliances better before purchasing them.

Also I guess they should be less user-hostile, good luck with that.

theknarf• 1 year ago

I have an LG washing machine whose old app is no longer around, and the new app doesn't work with my model.

The enshittification continues...

thorin2• 1 year ago

I haven't read every comment on this thread but it's highly likely that the use of wifi in the appliance is not for the convenience of the consumer, but more likely for the convenience of the designers and anyone having to service it. When building iot devices in the past I found it was a lot easier to interface over wifi than bluetooth, for all sorts of reasons. People who've tried to do both will probably appreciate why - I had to send bytestreams to bluetooth and it was quite complicated and error prone, whereas with wifi I could just make rest calls to the device. This was with an Arduino type device which was part of some customer b2b electronics we had made up for testing. Also some limitation of the Arduino meant it couldn't support bluetooth and wifi connectivity in the same build, possibly because of space limitations.

Anyway, my first thought on reading this was that all this wifi stuff was there anyway for the designers doing build and test and then someone in marketing had come up with the idea that this could also be a consumer feature.

In Europe Bosch has always been the go to quality consumer brand although there are quite a few next tier options such as Miele (which tend to be way more expensive). This is the case with domestic appliances but also with gas central heating boilers. Every year my service engineer says how pleased he is to see my Bosch boiler and how much better they are than other brands.

noboostforyou• 1 year ago

I literally went through this exact situation a couple months ago with a similar Bosch. I refused to get the new models that require the app to do simple things like half load or delay cycle that are physical buttons on my old one. I will actively avoid products like this.

JohnFen3• 1 year ago

The takeaway I've got from this thread is to never buy anything expensive or hard to uninstall unless you read the user manual first to suss out these sorts of landmines.

xg15• 1 year ago

Maybe worth to consider that with the AI craze going on and our lovely gang of anarchocapitalists at the helm, there is now not just the technical ability, but also economic motivation and soon maybe legal impunity for manufacturers to build hidden microphones into the devices, record everything you say and upload it for AI training.

whitehexagon• 1 year ago

We are outraged for ten minutes, and then move on, like the red sock in the white wash. The modern western consumer getting exactly what we deserve. MBA spin, rinse, repeat, draining us all, whilst the stain of these complex holding companies, launder their tax free profits.

With wage deflation, free time erosion, and political uncertainty, nobody has the time, energy or money to fight this. It is no wonder that we take the easy option, and so the cycle continues.

I do my best to pushback (this month was deleting firefox, last year was deleting youtube), but disengagement is just a number that nobody sees. So another 1000 people wont buy this brand, or use that service, or will boycott such and such. No one notices.

But I found some small hope. I recently switched jobs, and I have been lucky enough to talk to many people that do care enough to try to make a difference. I know there are others here on HN as well, some of us clinging on to one of the last websites worth visiting.

So if you have ever taken the more difficult option, I just want to say thank-you for your sacrifice, because even if the corps dont notice, you are doing the right thing. Karma.

Time to give tech a 'soiled wash' and start reviewing tech with a 'Clean Tech' moniker for companies willing to sell repairable tech, without the enshitifcation of ads, cloud, subscriptions, drm, mandatory accounts etc etc

Today's challenge, find Jeff a 'Clean Tech' washer so that we can have some interesting followup articles where he battles with the returns department because the machine has been listening in to his grumbles, and the water detection sticker has turned blue.

skuxxlife• 1 year ago

My current Bosch dishwasher that I bought almost 10 years ago does almost all of this (no eco mode or self-clean, though it does have a sanitize cycle which I would guess is effectively the same) with physical buttons and a 7 segment display. All of these “new” features seem so needless. They already solved it, my 10 year old dishwasher is a great dishwasher and I will happily use it until it dies.

I realize that that’s maybe the problem when the line must go up, but I am pretty sick of companies putting most of their efforts towards solving problems that no one actually has instead of doing a simple thing really well.

guybedo• 1 year ago

this discussion is getting big so i've built a summary, here's a few bullet points:

- Cloud-dependent features for essential appliance functions are undesirable.

- Modern appliances are becoming less durable and harder to repair compared to older models.

- There are valid concerns about privacy and data security with internet-connected home appliances.

- Consumer Reports and similar review sites are not always reliable and trustworthy.

- Simple, locally controlled appliances are preferable for core home appliance functionalities.

- Some smart features, like remote notifications and control, can be genuinely useful and convenient for users in certain situations.

- Smart features might offer specific advantages in shared living spaces or for optimizing energy consumption.

- Developing local-first software for appliances is perceived by some as complex and expensive compared to cloud-based solutions.

- The market will naturally adjust to consumer preferences regarding smart features over time.

- For some users, the effort of returning a product might outweigh the inconvenience of dealing with cloud-dependent features.

- Not all Bosch dishwashers require cloud connectivity, and some models are still considered high quality.

the summary can be found here: https://extraakt.com/extraakts/dishwasher-app-dependency

jrnichols• 1 year ago

We have HomeConnect on our new Thermador appliances. I actually went ahead and installed the iOS app and brought everything into Homebridge. (thinking about switching to Home Assistant, though...)

One of the big reasons that I did it is so I'd know when consumables needed to be replaced. The big hope was it would give me a warning when the fridge water filter was full and make buying the exact part easier.

It has failed to do this one thing. But I can get recipes from within the app. I still have no idea what water filter I need and have to try to find the model number.

If you're going to build a cloud setup for appliances, at least make it useful for the end user, eh?

edit: we actually considered a GE washer/dryer for the smart features until I sat down and realized that I was trying to over complicate laundry. We went with a Speed Queen model instead. My dryer now has two knobs and a button to start it.

perryizgr8• 1 year ago

What does Bosch even get out of doing this? Why not add a simple 7 segment display (decades old tech) and make it possible to use the machines functions from the controls? It's not like they make money from active Bosch accounts or anything.

cromka2• 1 year ago

I am seriously surprised he chose this expensive model over the IKEA model costing less than $300, which the Consumer Report ranked not much worse than this expensive Bosch in their report, the latter of which he references in his video.

csbbbb• 1 year ago

A rule of thumb I’m finding useful is, “If it has to connect to the internet to function properly, you do not really own it.”

ashoeafoot• 1 year ago

Get a llm soldetrd in that emulates the cloud? Bonuspoints if the actuator em ruins the connections.

methods21• 1 year ago

Reminds me of the BMW Heated Seats SaaS option.

What's even worse is the planned obsolescence, its such a huge waste of resources. I had a GE DW and fridge from the 1950s until 1995 and they still worked, albeit were a funky lime greenish color. And that DW washed the dishes better than the new replacement. Currently dealing with a 2 year old LG fridge that is dead.

bgnn2• 1 year ago

I guess this is an American market thing. Most Bosch dishwashers in EU do not come with this stupid app. Almost all have displays and physical buttons.

I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

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