The $25k car is going extinct?

https://media.hubspot.com/why-the-25000-car-is-going-extinct

by pseudolus • 1 year ago

321 1113 1 year ago

media.hubspot.com

bell-cot• 1 year ago

Daydream: For types of cars/trucks which are generally unavailable on the American market, tariffs and import restrictions are keep rather modest.

HarHarVeryFunny• 1 year ago

Would make sense - why protect a market that no US manufacturer seems to want to support!

Of course the US manufacturers are hoping that you'll just take out a loan, preferably with them (this is how they make their profit - financing and servicing) and buy something far more expensive than you want/need.

mouse_• 1 year ago

Dealership near me has got some 2024-25 model Mitsubishis for like 19k new. They look pretty sweet.

stn8188• 1 year ago

I'm assuming this is the Mirage, which is one of the cars we own for the family (the other is an old Odyssey to fit all the kids). The Mirage is an absolute joy to own: its simple 3cyl engine gets 50mpg if I'm careful. We live in a very rural area (i.e. walking and biking for a big family is impossible and dangerous), so having something economical to drive is a huge help. We drive it any time we aren't taking the whole family somewhere!

Of course in the article, I see the Mirage is noted as discontinued. How frustrating.

neogodless7• 1 year ago

Chevrolet Trax can be found between $20-21k USD but... when I look at inventory, nothing within ~75 miles is under $25k.

Not a horrible vehicle for the price.

Mazda 3 used to be a $20k car (and even less before that) but now starts just over $24k (sedan) / $25k (hatchback).

Marsymars6• 1 year ago

TBF even at $25k the Mazda 3 is probably “nicer” than anything else you can get for that price.

snovymgodym• 1 year ago

It's pretty simple (in the US, can't speak for elsewhere).

There are 2 big factors at play:

1. Margins. Manufacturers make huge margins on expensive vehicles and very slim margins on cheap vehicles. The numbers differ, but I think even in the lead up to the 2008 crisis automakers had to sell 5-10 "econobox" cars to make the profit they made on one luxury car, SUV, or truck.

2. Normalization of debt. For many Americans, having a monthly car payment in perpetuity is considered acceptable. Car loans have their place and can be used responsibly, but due to marketing, sales tactics, and cultural sensibilities what often ends up happening is that people start from a monthly dollar amount and then work forwards to buy the most expensive vehicle they can, even if it means taking the loan term out to 72 or 84 months. It's also very normal for people to never pay off their car, instead trading in the vehicle after 3-5 years and rolling equity in the loan over to their next car. Obviously, this consumer habit is great for dealers, manufacturers, creditors and buyers of consumer debt, as well as the US Government and investors -- it's just not ideal for the consumers themselves if they're trying to preserve wealth and build savings.

These two factors create an environment increasingly hostile to the cheap entry level car. Consumer demand is low since most don't spend responsibly, and automakers don't really want to make or sell them because the margins are so slim.

autobodie• 1 year ago

the interest on those loans is maddening

nradov5• 1 year ago

Why? Auto loan interest rates are currently below the historical average.

msgodel6• 1 year ago

having a monthly car payment in perpetuity is considered acceptable.

I think that really depends on what part of America. At least where I grew up around a bunch of middle class conservatives listening to eg Dave Ramsey (who has other problems IMO) most people think of you as reckless/irresponsible for doing that sort of thing.

aprilthird20214• 1 year ago

I grew up around a bunch of middle class conservatives in the Southern USA and almost all of them were into debt on house, car, often even taking loans to pay for kids private school.

And you'd never know until the family divorced and their lifestyle drastically decreases.

Dave Ramsey has to be relatively new because debt was extremely extremely common among conservatives in the US (no idea about liberals didn't live among them)

philwelch3• 1 year ago

Dave Ramsey is perfect for the type of people who need Dave Ramsey. If you’re a standard deviation or two above the median person in terms of having your shit together and being smart about personal finance you can do a few things more optimally than he would recommend, but the advice that works for that person could easily ruin most people.

baby_souffle2• 1 year ago

I think that really depends on what part of America.

And the age of the cohort... Millennials (1980 to '95-ish) have had student loans since as far back as they can remember. What's _another_ never-ending monthly payment?

JKCalhoun5• 1 year ago

I think the cost of a car is a huge drag on the upward mobility on the lower income earners in the U.S.

roxolotl• 1 year ago

100%. And it doesn’t help that large cars as a cultural touchstone/status symbol really took off. Even if a $25k car existed most people wouldn’t buy it(even if they “should”).

SJC_Hacker2• 1 year ago

Because they are buying new and financing it

kevin_thibedeau2• 1 year ago

So do the cost of cigarettes and alcohol. Things they burn a larger proportion of their money on than higher earners.

sofixa4• 1 year ago

I think the bigger issue is the need for a car. In most of the US, everything is built with the assumption you'll be driving to it (workplaces, stores, facilities, etc).

So everyone has to have a car. So your social mobility is limited by the fact that you need to have the money for the expenses that go with it in the first place.

3-4 cities with decent to good transit are the exception, but the fact that they're so desirable and with such high housing prices means that they aren't really accessible either.

BLKNSLVR10• 1 year ago

My reptilian-brain logic prevents me from even considering getting a loan for car. Houses increase in value, therefore it makes a certain amount of sense to get a loan / mortgage for the purchase of a house (but mainly because no-one - in the world in which I live - can afford to buy one cash).

Cars decrease in value, very quickly. Getting a loan for a car is throwing more money away than buying a car in the first place.

Having said that, I'm immune to a lot of 'social norms' so I've been fine driving my tired-looking 20-year old Outlander soccer mum car or our 10+ year old grannymobile Nissan Leaf.

There are situations in which a loan for a car may be necessary, but I'd have to be a really tight spot to consider it, and I'd be absolutely minimising the size / length of it.

vel0city16• 1 year ago

Lots of loan rates out there for <1% APR. Easy to get savings accounts at 4%+ these days.

I could pay off my car tomorrow. But I'll have more money in the end keeping that cash in the bank. Why would I pay it off early?

xyzzy123• 1 year ago

I think the way most people rationalise it, it's a pre-requisite for having a job. So it's income-generating and therefore morally ok to take out a loan for it.

qznc• 1 year ago

Houses do not increase in value. Land property does (usually). Houses decrease.

b00ty4breakfast2• 1 year ago

It's not merely an issue of obtaining materially desirable consumer goods though; lots of folks get car loans because they can't afford to buy a car, even a cheap car, without one. So it's either, don't get a car and give up a lot of opportunities or hope you live in a place with decent public transit (which is not a given in many places in the US)

tshaddox4• 1 year ago

The cash is fungible, so for a fixed amount of money and interest rate it really doesn’t matter if the thing you’re buying depreciates or not (assuming you’re buying both things anyway).

gmac6• 1 year ago

Getting a loan for a car seems quite natural to me. A car provides service flows over a long period, so why not pay for it over a similarly long period? In the first year or two the car's value is probably below the outstanding loan amount, but beyond that it's likely to rise above it, so you're free to sell and walk away from the arrangement.

Granted, high interest rates might make this a bad deal, but the principle seems sound. I bought my previous car on a 7-year bank loan at 2.5% and didn't regret it.

TulliusCicero3• 1 year ago

The solution to number one is more competition: a new company willing to take smaller margins to gain market share.

DangitBobby2• 1 year ago

Seems like all the new entrants would rather compete at the high end.

jazzyjackson• 1 year ago

Economies of scale says before you can build a cheap car you must first be a large company

jcmeyrignac• 1 year ago

In Europe, the average age for buying a new car is 50. This means that most of the cars sold are second-hand. Most people think that the car is a luxury and prefer to focus on their home first, then their family, and after that, their car.

DanielHB2• 1 year ago

I am from Brazil and although most cities are 100% built around cars, public transportation IS an option and mostly works and is (somewhat) affordable.

Unlike the US, if a place is 1km away as the eagle flies you can get there by walking ~1.5km max. And there are bus services and although often overcrowded or with low service, they do run and you can plan your life around them.

Yet everyone still buys a car as soon as they can afford one (or often if they can't). And they use it for commuting to work every day.

To get to the point that Europe is in where even rich people don't want cars or if they have one it is for weekend trips. You need to do a lot better than this.

Unfortunately getting the US to be like Europe in this regard is not really viable, but it could get to the point where Brazil is where the poorer people can afford to not own a car.

In some big cities in Brazil they do a lot of low-cost things like dedicated bus-lanes that actually make some high-demand trips shorter by bus. Progress in this area needs to be incremental, there is little point in investing crazy amounts of money in one big project. Instead the investing should be lower and constant.

sometimes one big project can make a big difference, like a new rail-bridge or metro. But in general getting people into busses is more efficient even if that means rich people still won't want to get into that bus.

carefulfungi• 1 year ago

This is partly contrary to the article - which claims that demand for inexpensive cars is high enough to cause their price to increase over MSRP.

9999000009995• 1 year ago

We don't want affordable Chinese EVs.

That's the answer here. They can build cars better, cheaper, faster than we can.

Instead Ford wants to sell a 80k SUPER F-250 BIG MANN TRUCK. All for what, you to drive 10 minutes to Walmart, buy groceries and drive back.

The best car is the one you don't own. No payments, insurance, parking tickets.

Unfortunately most American cities are centered around driving. So much money , and space wasted on these multi ton metal boxes. In many places most(much) of the city is literally just parking spaces.

burnt-resistor• 1 year ago

F-450 King Ranch Super Deluxe.. all made from plastic and guaranteed not to last longer than 8 years. Most engines of new vehicles are sleeved and cannot be rebuilt in the spirit of designed for manufacturing and profits > designed for durability.

timewizard2• 1 year ago

Yep. Then add in all the regulatory systems. DEF, EGR, Catalytic Converter, Turbo, 10 speed transmissions. They're all fragile and fall out of warranty coverage easily.

RAM is apparently going to use plastic control arms in it's new vehicles.

paulryanrogers2• 1 year ago

Cars are a reflection of ones personality here in the Midwest. Some grow out of it or never subscribe to the mentality. It's certainly cheaper to bicycle, weather and health permitting.

Though car driving and ownership are a big cultural phenomenon, especially among men 18-50.

9999000009995• 1 year ago

Depends on the man, I’ll admit in my early twenties I meet a few partners by being car free.

I legit took a girl home after I asked her if she knew why the train was late.

In Amsterdam at least one of the train stations has a piano. It becomes a 3rd place were people can make friends and socialize.

We don’t have many 3rd places in the US where you can exist without spending money.

blharr• 1 year ago

Weather and health permitting

Environment as well. In terms of "safety" it is unfortunately very risky to bike (or even walk) in my area due to the sprawling roads everywhere. Drivers don't look out for anything other than large boxes, and I've quickly had way too many close calls to consider it useful.

supertrope• 1 year ago

I can hear street racing noises from a highway three miles away! I used to think it was just a few blocks away because I could hear it but I looked at a map. A few people install aftermarket exhausts/noise makers critics call "fart cans." After a recent police crackdown the amount of racing noise at night decreased greatly.

clickety_clack• 1 year ago

I make pretty good tech money and I can’t imagine spending that much on a car. It would be cheaper to uber everywhere I went.

marssaxman2• 1 year ago

Likewise - it's funny to me that $25,000 is cited as an "affordable" price for a car, when that's almost double what I spent on the most expensive car I've ever owned (a Land Rover Discovery II, which was a lovely machine). I cannot imagine what it would feel like to look at a $60,000 price tag and think, "yes, this would be a sensible use of money".

Gigachad2• 1 year ago

I've done the math a few times and it just makes no sense to own a car for me. Public transport is the fastest way to get to work, and for everything else I can uber every time PT isn't the best option and still come out cheaper than buying the most budget new car.

paxys3• 1 year ago

We do want affordable Chinese EVs, the same way we want Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru (all among the best selling auto manufacturers in the USA every year). You can't buy them because the government and domestic car companies don't want you to.

tengbretson• 1 year ago

comment about how a non-american country has a better approach
male ego/phalus comment
car-centric cities
"N-ton metal box"

I'm 1 square away from a Strong Towns reader bingo. Do you happen to know who invented the concept of jaywalking?

willcipriano• 1 year ago

We don't want affordable Chinese EVs.

If that was true it wouldn't be illegal to sell them.

vovavili• 1 year ago

I do want cheap Chinese EVs. I can't buy them because of government regulation.

JKCalhoun5• 1 year ago

I'd prefer to have cheap U.S. cars ... but I suspect we won't seem them until the threat of cheap Chinese cars becomes a reality.

msgodel6• 1 year ago

I'm always a little surprised anyone buys American cars at all. For a while they used to make larger trucks than anyone else did but even that's not really the case anymore, it's all just overpriced garbage with a popular brand.

eitally• 1 year ago

You're not wrong, but I think there's another factor, too. (And I drive a 2017 F150)

I would love to sell my truck and get something smaller. But I just got a repair estimate of almost $2500 to replace the from facing camera in my wife's Odyssey, and the Bluetooth stack in my truck has never really worked properly for phone calls. With cars becoming increasingly. "Software defined vehicles" I don't feel comfortable purchasing a $50k+ car that might have software bugs, or may not be supported for over 5-10yrs. I'm currently thinking very seriously that the best options are either to buy used or to lease.

Moreover, I'm thinking the overall percentage of private vehicles that are leased is going to continue to increase as time moves on, until the big mfrs are essentially acting as huge rental fleet operators.

GiorgioG• 1 year ago

2016 F-150 here…just keep it. At this point I’m going to run mine into the ground. No way I would spend whatever Ford is asking for nowadays for a new one.

iancmceachern3• 1 year ago

We drive an F250, and live in San Francisco.

We hardly put any miles on it (maybe 15k a year). To get around locally we ride our bikes mostly here in the city.

We do use it for our small business (essential) and also to to a large RV trailer which we use to live in 2-4 months a year visiting loved ones and just decompressing.

The things people don't usually talk about is the total cost of ownership.

One can buy a new F250 diesel for $80k, drive it for 6 years towing heavy loads and working hard. And sellnit for more than half what they paid for it. During that time the only costs are routine maintenance, no major repair bills.

One can also buy a luxury car or SUV, say a BMW, for the same price and 6 years later it is most certainly not worth half what they paid for it, and they typically paid tens of thousands in repair costs.

The next argument people make is that a big truck is inefficient. The simple fact is my F250 diesel gets the same as your BMW M3. But it can be used for work, and is.

Financially, I would argue that it makes no sense to buy a new vehicle above $50k that isn't a diesel pickup.

soganess2• 1 year ago

[flagged]

9999000009995• 1 year ago

You don't have to justify your personal situation to me.

If you feel like buying a 80k truck, that's cool.

The issue with America is the vast majority of truck buyers really can't afford an 80k truck.

This isn't the best source, but it says here the average truck buyer is only making 82k or so.

https://www.myautoconcepts.com/blogdetails?id=4049

From experience talking to friends and sales people plenty of folks with 60 to 80k incomes find themselves in 50k plus vehicles.

I suspect for the majority of truck buyers, if credit wasn't as easily available, they'd find alternatives.

The only reason the typical person can buy an 80k truck is they can get a loan.

Let's say their was a hypothetical car loan limit of 1/4th of your annual income. A lot of people would find out really fast they don't need a massive truck.

Manufacturers would in turn adjust accordingly. A 15k car, maybe without a bunch of touch screens, is possible.

This is probably why cars are cheaper in China, credit isn't as available.

xbmcuser• 1 year ago

Although I agree that Trucks are not needed by majority of the people that buy them in the US. The reason for high truck prices is 25% tariff on imported trucks for the last 50 years ie lack of competition.

tzs• 1 year ago

We hardly put any miles on it (maybe 15k a year)

That's a little more than the average American drives per year.

throwaway20373• 1 year ago

    > 2-4 months a year visiting loved ones and just decompressing

What is this a humblebrag?

jfengel• 1 year ago

I have never seen the bed of a Cybertruck.

Not a dig at the vehicle; that's a different thing. Rather, I notice that this truck doesn't seem to spend much time as a, ya know, truck.

With other trucks it's less obvious because they don't have a built in bed cover. I suspect many of them also spent very little time trucking, at least here in this suburb. Perhaps it's different in more agricultural areas.

defrost4• 1 year ago

I'm in an agricultural area, have been in and around agriculture and mining for many decades, I can't see anyone buying a cybertruck for any practical reason.

I've seen the offroad performance videos, the cybertruck isn't anything to write home about wrt to either ground clearance or scrabble factor (broken road hill climbing, etc).

Other cheaper vehicles perform as well or better.

The tray area is a nightmare, three side access to tools is good, totally flat tray backs are good, side rails for tie downs are good, ability to custom fit racks for carrying stuff (long lumber, or glass and or panels, etc), etc. are all the kinds of practical choices that dictate a practical utility purchase .. none of these are things at which the cybertruck shines.

Jach• 1 year ago

I've only ever seen one in that mocking picture of trying to fit a motorcycle in it vs. a Kei truck. I still reserve my full judgment though for if I ever get to have extended personal time with one, though I have been soured on the whole thing. The concept was cooler than the final product for sure.

I go back and forth on how much weight to give the "not being used for truck stuff" criticism. (Maybe because I own a small 2006 Ranger that, while sometimes being used for truck stuff, is mostly used for stuff any vehicle can do. I also put on a cheap bed cover for the first time last week...) I think I'm more partial to the "not ever used for truck stuff" criticism -- that makes it more similar to buying powerful PC hardware. If you aren't ever making use of it, what's the point? But if you only use it from time to time, that seems totally fine. Optionality is generally good, especially when you actually use the options, but of course there's a cost-benefit analysis people don't seem to make with modern car financing.

I'd like to see a cybertruck towing a camper in the wild, as that seems to be a thing some of my older relatives do with their big trucks.

beeflet2• 1 year ago

Usually I would consider such a large truck to be wasteful, but because it's electric you aren't really burning up a ton of extra fuel.

neom• 1 year ago

I've been watching WheelsBoy youtube channel a lot, he covers Chinese cars in China: https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy - I don't know if this is the best source, but it's been eye opening to watch.

everdrive2• 1 year ago

Regulations prevent the sale of small, cheap trucks in the US. I'm so sick of "BIG MANN TRUCK" being blamed on ego. The kind small basic of truck you used to be able to buy just doesn't exist any more and it's been regulated out of existence. The Maverick doesn't even stand-in very well for this and Ford can barely keep up with the demand.

jillesvangurp2• 1 year ago

We don't want affordable Chinese EVs.

The US wants them so much that it requires 100% tariffs to keep them off the market.

BatFastard• 1 year ago

https://www.slate.auto/

With rebates a 20,000 truck. Who knows what it will cost when it actually comes out. But I love the concept.

blacksmith_tb• 1 year ago

Also, not a gigantic truck, and no infotainment (or even powered windows!) It'd be a manual transmission if it wasn't an EV.

BLKNSLVR10• 1 year ago

or even powered windows!

An exclamation mark for lacking powered windows? Oh the humanity!

I'm starting to see the problem.

mlsu• 1 year ago

A car like this in China would cost $12k

No rebates

US automakers are so ridiculously far behind

fwip2• 1 year ago

Note that those rebates would be entirely killed under the current Trump budget bill [1], so we'll see what happens.

I also love the concept, it's a bunch of things I've been looking for but unable to find in the US market. The final price/availability as well as repairability are going to be the dealmakers.

[1] https://electrek.co/2025/06/28/republicans-are-trying-kill-7...

QuadmasterXLII• 1 year ago

it’s a shame that they’re spending so much of their capital on manufacturer side customizability. An electric vehicle is a firmware update away from being a stick welder already; make the truck one way and ship it with a pair of jumper cables, a box of 6011, and a pallet of tube steel.

snuxoll3• 1 year ago

Outside of having what amounts to a couple of shells and removable seats that can be mounted to the box (and a removable rear panel from the cab to join them to create a single 'interior' when using them), the majority of their BTO options are really basic module swaps where most of the complexity comes from managing inventory of the various SKUs than anything else.

As somebody with a '99 Ford Ranger, the Slate is incredibly appealing as nearly every other manufacturer has completely abandoned the compact pickup market; although it has the same issue that the Ford Maverick and Honda Ridgeline do, it's a unibody design. If they actually launch I may end up getting one if they release some BTO options to slot a double-din mount and door-mounted speakers in to handle runs to the hardware store and towing lighter loads on paved roads, but I really wish somebody would do a compact frame-on-body pickup again for those of us that drive poorly maintained dirt roads in forested/mountainous terrain where some body damage (and thus, the cheaper repair costs associated with body-on-frame designs are nice to have) is always lurking around the corner.

[Seriously, I understand the difficulties of batteries and such with EV's and that's likely part of why the Slate is designed this way. But, for people like me who actually need a pickup to do pickup things, not haul groceries, it's frustrating when you're accustomed to being able to replace a side-panel on the box for less than your insurance deductible if something falls on it. And that's without even bringing up the obvious disadvantages when it comes to towing and payload capacity.]

jccalhoun2• 1 year ago

I may be cynical but I think this is all marketing. From what I've seen there is so much upselling built into the concept that if this ever comes out that I don't think many people will be driving around the 20K model.

Glawen• 1 year ago

Aka how to shoot yourself in the foot and hand over the market to Chinese manufacturer. In Europe, only Renault created a low cost brand (Dacia).

Once chinese brands become commonplace everywhere, tradional carmakers will have a hard time taking back market share. In Europe they closed or are closing the last HCOL factories, killing any remaining brand loyalty.

AJ007• 1 year ago

Yeah, a better title for the article is how western automakers are going to go extinct. Sure the US might decide to block Chinese cars (apparently the EU isn't), but they can't force the rest of the world to buy $65,000 American built cars when the alternatives are less than 1/3rd of that price.

A larger question is how much the cheap Chinese cars are dependent on a long chain of government subsidies from the mines to the local infrastructure and what happens when China's investment driven growth cycle comes to an end. If the solar panels are any comparison, the Chinese automakers are losing a lot of money despite grandiose subsidies.

defrost4• 1 year ago

The answer to your question is less and less every year with only sales tax exemption remaining as the greatest support provided.

That support did total some US $231 billion over 14 years from 2009 through until 2023.

You can see more at: https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dil... (June 2024)

  There are at least two different ways to interpret the data on industrial policy support for EV makers.

  China’s trading partners could point to 15 years of sustained regulatory and financial support for domestic producers, which has fundamentally altered the playing field to make it much harder for others to compete in China or anywhere else where Chinese EVs are sold.

  By contrast, defenders of China could point out that the data show that subsidies as a percentage of total sales have declined substantially, from over 40% in the early years to only 11.4% in 2023, which reflects a pattern in line with heavier support for infant industries, then a gradual reduction as they mature.

  In addition, they could note that the average support per vehicle has fallen from $13,860 in 2018 to just under $4,800 in 2023, which is less than the $7,500 credit that goes to buyers of qualifying vehicles as part of the U.S.’s Inflation Reduction Act.

It would be interesting to compare that to Western and US support for fossil fuel cars with substantial government support of the oil and gas industry.

aprilthird20214• 1 year ago

The sad thing is it'll be a slow death. As American / German / Japanese still hold cultural cachet over Chinese/ Vietnamese cars, the companies will delude themselves into going off a cliff till a new gen comes and doesn't care about that cachet and just cares about price

ReptileMan2• 1 year ago

I don't know. Lately the basic expectation even for Temu Chinesium it to work and work well. So I have been taking chances on bigger and bigger ticket items that are made in china and are of good quality for a fraction of the price of the western things. Made in China doesn't carry such big stigma lately. So I don't think that the headwinds toward them (unlike everything изделано в СССР) are that strong. I mean can't be worse than a Renault.

conductr3• 1 year ago

In the US, if they were allowed and priced as low as I hear they can be (without excessive tariff, etc) then I'd expect it would only take 5-10 years. Assuming they are in fact similar on quality/reliability to what we're used to. The people willing to take a risk to save money or get more for their money would start the wave, word would spread, then people who can afford any brand will jump on board as they've heard it is not really risky as they expected.

Problem is, we'll probably never let Chinese vehicles in as it is an existential threat to the US auto industry. It's odd because we allow Japanese, Korean, etc. but we have political beef with China as a global power rivaling ours.

nubinetwork• 1 year ago

You can't buy a BYD in Canada, and all the current EVs are too expensive. It's better to keep buying old clunkers.

nottorp3• 1 year ago

In Europe, only Renault created a low cost brand (Dacia).

Dacia did force other european auto makers to maintain at least one low cost ish model. Not an entire brand but still. Sometimes just for the eastern european market. Skoda Rapid comes to mind.

But even Dacia is succumbing to the auto manufacturer mindset. Every year the models get larger, more default features are added and the cars get more expensive.

jillesvangurp2• 1 year ago

There are a growing number of electrical cars priced below 25K euro in the EU and a few below 20K even. I mention electrical cars because that's where all the growth is. Electrical cars are now becoming cheaper than the cheapest ICE cars. You mentioned Dacia. VW is bringing out the ID2 next year. There's a few Stellantis models from e.g. Citroen. And of course BYD is now selling cheap cars in the EU as well. And those are just the vaguely European cars (lots of Chinese components involved). Japanese, Korean, and Chinese manufacturers are also growing their EV market here. Notably absent (except for a handful of Ford compliance cars and Tesla) are US manufacturers.

The article is specifically about the US market, which because of the tariff situation is becoming highly distorted. The local producers are making what are increasingly US only models that can't really compete internationally. This excludes mass produced small cars because they can't do them competitively any more as that would require high volumes and export markets. But mostly US car makers are struggling with export markets. There are a few exceptions to this of course.

In China, the competition is pretty brutal right now and it's starting to spill over to other markets. That's all about budget cars and redefining what a budget car actually is. Any export markets where US manufacturers still have any ambitions are being affected by this. BYD and other Chinese manufacturers are gaining market share (at the cost of other manufacturers) all over Asia, Central and South America, Australia, Africa, Europe, etc. Even Mexico and Canada are not off limits and these are the primary export markets for GM and Ford.

Small cars are booming everywhere. Except the US.

AlotOfReading• 1 year ago

Everything in here matches with my experience in the auto industry, but I don't think it gets the whole truth. Car companies, particularly the American and German brands, make the vast majority of their money from new car buyers and leasers, not the used car market. Over the past few decades, OEMs have focused almost exclusively on serving those customers, to the detriment of virtually everyone else. Those are very different customers than the people who want to buy $25k cars. Worse, even if you do sell that kind of vehicle, it depreciates and goes right back into circulation on the used market competing against the new cars because the customers are ultimately very utilitarian and lack brand loyalty, unlike the higher end customers. You can't even count on those higher end customers to reliably purchase the higher trim models because of the "status" aspects of a cheap car.

It's a tough market that OEMs don't want to be in, so they cede it almost entirely to foreign OEMs that haven't moved upmarket yet. Foreign OEMs are structurally incapable of selling cars at those prices (by design), so the bottom end of the market gets hollowed out to nothing but a few "loss leader" vehicles.

al_borland• 1 year ago

The Subaru Impreza starts just under $25k, and comes standard with their EyeSight system for adaptive cruise control, automatic braking, etc.

paxys3• 1 year ago

One fact not mentioned in the article - Americans now owe $1.64 trillion in auto loans, and cars make up 9% of all consumer debt in the country. In fact we now owe more on cars than student loans. The average loan term is rising - almost 6 years now. 60-day delinquency on auto loans is at 6.6%, the highest ever recorded, and is as high as 9% in some states.

So while car prices keep going up, people also keep going deeper into debt to buy one they can't afford.

You can blame manufacturers or banks, but ultimately the problem is unchecked consumerism and treating cars as a status symbol, which is sadly pervasive in this country.

philistine• 1 year ago

As if the car was ever only a utilitarian commodity at any point in its history. The car has always been a status symbol.

JKCalhoun5• 1 year ago

When, as the article says, the $25k car is going extinct, I do blame manufacturers and banks (and the dealerships).

leakycap13• 1 year ago

Almost all cars have turbos, all have abs/airbags/cameras... even counting the seat foam & covers, wheels, door cars... how cheap do you think a vehicle safe and comfortable for humans can be?

The average car has tons of moving parts that have to be weatherproof, shakeproof, pothole-ready... stuff consumer tech doesn't dream of. It also has to be repairable, be engineered to meet all the regulations in various countries so the manufacturer doesn't make 15 versions for different countries...

A lot of things are overpriced in the world; I'm not sure cars in general are high on this list. If you want a car similar to a high end 2015 car, the 2025 Jetta has more than anything you could have gotten in 2015 and I'd say with inflation the price is lower today when you account for inflation.

I had a Jetta as a service loaner recently and it drove great. $25k cars are still out there, you just can't get a $25k 4Runner.

arwhatever• 1 year ago

Occasionally see pizza delivery signs atop super duty trucks where I live.

silisili• 1 year ago

In the rural midwest, it's extremely common to see dumpy trailers with one or two 75k new super duties parked outside.

I don't get it at all, and thought "well, maybe they didn't have a choice and needed it for work?" before realizing any old used truck would probably work as well(if not better).

I have to say it's a status symbol, a weird one at that. I'm more in awe of rat rods and fixed up old trucks than brand new ones, YMMV I guess.

crystal_revenge• 1 year ago

problem is unchecked consumerism

Problem is if the US consumer had the “moral awakening” you propose (and to be clear you are claiming that basically we are in this situation due to the weak moral character of the average American) then coincidentally our entire economy would begin to crumble. It’s not just car loans, our entire economy works because of debt, and has for at least the last 20 years. The idea that nearly every one benefits financially from this behavior and yet we see this behavior at scale solely and coincidentally because of a sudden mass moral failing is a bit hard to believe.

leakycap13• 1 year ago

Well said, but I would add that it seems reasonable if we take debt too far, it will indeed crumble.

I'm not sure we didn't pass that point before the pandemic, and decision-making since has not helped.

nradov5• 1 year ago

Sure, status is a factor. But for people who do a lot of driving, having a nice car really benefits their quality of life. No one wants to spend hours every day in a miserable little penalty box.

neogodless7• 1 year ago

This is very subjective. The cars people today call a "little penalty box" are easily equivalent or better to many of the luxury cars of the 1990s. Bluetooth, AC, ABS, backup camera. There's almost nothing that isn't required / standard. Plus they tend to be the efficient 35+ mpg cars.

BLKNSLVR10• 1 year ago

I disagree relatively wholeheartedly. Beyond some absolute basic comforts (that I would argue have been well catered to in the last 25-odd years), it's mindset. Unfortunately mindset has a fair percentage of 'status' wrapped up in it.

rpcope12• 1 year ago

Price of vehicle seems to have little bearing on the comfort of driving anymore, other than if you're tall and being shoved into something small like a Yaris (although at 6'4" my Saturn S-series wasn't bad at all). Cars seem to keep getting more aggravating to sit in, not less, and doubly so for "premium" stuff people like to buy. Manufacturers keep jamming what feel like racing seats into everything (everything has to have "racing" parts) and other things that make no sense at all for the task at hand, like enormous wheels with rubber band tires. It was way easier and more comfortable to log huge miles on older stuff like 90s and early 00's Chevy trucks (even the S10s) or a regular old Impala or Saturn as they were way, way more comfortable and not a persistent bloated irritation to drive.

Cars must be the textbook case of Stockholm syndrome. People keep buying Audi/BMW/Mercedes and European cars in general for god knows what reason (even though when they inevitably need service, it is always an expensive nightmare, among other big problems), they buy stuff that is functionally useless and stupid looking like CUVs (many of which which have less interior room than a Camry, burn more fuel and still ride and drive like ass), and have caused the market for full size body on frame trucks to turn completely on its head (hard to find anything other than pavement queen king ranch doodoo trucks that will cost you at least your first born son). This whole "it's shit if I don't pay a huge premium, and it's shit if it's not huge and loaded to the gills with useless shit you're never actually going to miss or use but will cost a small country's GDP to even flash to pair up when you need to R&R" is something that's probably one of life's great mysteries to me.

rfwhyte• 1 year ago

The thing you're missing here is that the automakers have spent billions upon untold billions of dollars lobbying politicians and on PR campaigns targeted at the public to convince people that literally the ONLY way American cities could possibly exist is in a form that is utterly dependent upon the automobile.

Transit ridership in the US was higher in the 1950s than it is today and it was the automakers that killed public transit. They literally bought up popular and profitable public transit companies just to shut them down so people would be forced to drive.

The problem isn't "Consumerism" it's a culture of car dependency that's largely the result of intentional action on the part of the automakers to grow and protect their profits.

The reason there's so much auto loan debt in the US is people literally HAVE TO OWN a car just to get to work to support their families in the vast majority of US towns and cities. People don't want to go into debt just so they can buy some shitty fucking KIA so they can sit in traffic for two+ hours a day so they can get to one of their three minimum wage jobs, but when the alternative is being unemployed and homeless, a lot of folks will do what they have to do to provide for themselves and their families.

denkmoon• 1 year ago

welp, guess my corolla needs to last until I die. I spent about $9k usd (in australia though) on it second hand pre covid and I'm just gobsmacked at the prices of vehciles now even years post covid. I make good coin and I just can't see how non-"enthusiasts" can justify spending so much money on their vehicle. there are houses in my suburb with 3-4 of these expensive, new model cars out front.

aprilthird20214• 1 year ago

If Australia is like the US, all those cars are leases or debt-financed

nikcub• 1 year ago

It is. From Australia's largest Toyota dealer I know that ~70% of new car sales are financed. A proportion of the rest would be funded by home equity but that is harder to measure.

An interesting trend that I've heard from multiple dealership (friends and family) - the number of people being rejected for financing has dramatically increased in the past 12 months. There are some dealership areas now where a third of applicants are being turned down.

sien• 1 year ago

Cars are the worst spending many, perhaps most people make.

It's remarkable in Australia how many people are borrowing and paying much more for them as well.

Driving a Corolla, Mazda 2, Kia Rio or something can save so much money.

These days these are remarkably good cars too.

elcritch• 1 year ago

One downside in the US of driving a small car now is considerably more lethal in a crash with larger vehicles.

I drive a Mazda 3 and sometimes it feels like a bicycle compared to some of the enormous SUV and overdone trucks.

marcus_holmes• 1 year ago

Gotta spend all that FIFO money on something, and a new car makes them feel good about their shitty FIFO situation.

chasd00• 1 year ago

The sweet spot has always been a 1 year old used car with low miles. There’s lots of those for less than or about $25k. Honda, Toyota, and Mazda have models in those ranges that will easily last a decade.

resoluteteeth• 1 year ago

1 year old used cars are inevitably going to get more expensive as new cars get more expensive (or cheaper new cars cease being made)

freedomben2• 1 year ago

I've bought a couple of those and never again. They're usually former rental cars and people best the shit out of them. I've had so many stupid things break

aprilthird20214• 1 year ago

I bought a 1 year old used model and it's worked for me for 10 years now. Ymmv. Maybe worth getting a mechanic to look before buying

brandall103• 1 year ago

Even better, a 3 year old used car with low miles.

In 2016 I picked up a 2013 320i Sport w/ 22k miles on the clock for $18.5k. The sticker on the car was just over $36k. I did have to fly to a relatively remote town (Ogden Utah) and drive it home to San Diego, so that was an extra $320 for the plane ticket/shuttle/gas and 14 hours out of a saturday.

It was almost out of warranty, so pre-purchase I paid a local shop $110 to do a similar inspection to what BMW does for CPO and it only needed brake pads. Aside from the brake pads and scheduled maintenance, eventually replaced the tires, so about $2000 in maintenance over that period. Sold it for $14.5k w/ 50k on the clock 6 years later.

Could have held onto it much longer but was eager to do the nomad thing as covid was clearing up.

lispisok• 1 year ago

I looked into that when I was buying a car in 2020 and I found the price discount wasnt nearly as big as I thought it was going to be plus the car was out of warranty plus all the parts now had 10k miles of wear on them. A new set of tires is like $1200. I was able to spend a few grand more for a brand new car of the same model.

Marsymars6• 1 year ago

If you don’t drive much yourself, “low miles” after a couple years doesn’t matter quite as much. e.g. I bought my car at a couple years old with 40k miles already, but in the following twelve years I’ve only run it up to about 115k miles, so I’ve turned it from a “high-mileage two-year-old car” into a “low-mileage 14-year-old car”.

otherme123• 1 year ago

Why would anyone sell a good car with one year old and low mileage? It's a lottery ticket: it could go well, or the car might be already damaged. I personally know a bunch of people that bought second hand and are "my car is only a couple of years old, and I found the engine / gearbox / frame is damaged. Lets repair it barely and sell it ASAP to recover some money". But weirdly, they go to the second hand market again, thinking they are the only smart ones doing that. They all know a mechanic that ensures the car is OK, just like they did with the first one.

I was very disappointed when searching the used car market for cars with low mileage, only to found they are almost as pricey as new but I don't know how they have been taken care of. A lot of them come from the rental business. I paid a bit premium (2K or so) for my new-zero-kilometer car, and after 6 years is as good as new, as it is cared like a baby.

tanh• 1 year ago

I am pretty sure these cars still exist in Japan at roughly the same price point. I'm not talking about kei cars, either.

everdrive2• 1 year ago

In 2014 I got a very nice and very basic brand new sedan for about $14k. That's not so long ago, but the car market in the US seems to get worse every year. (cost, newer models are bloated and overly-expensive, etc.) My only advice would be to buy now (ideally something used) since I can only imagine things will be even worse in a few years.

Schnitz• 1 year ago

Yup, we bought a new base model Corolla in 2016 and there’s no sensible way to upgrade or get something nicer. We put 70k miles on it in 9 years. We’ve looked into upgrading more than once, we could easily afford it, but anything that would be a true upgrade (bigger and nicer) is just such a ridiculous waste of money given how inflated car prices have been since Covid. Add to that that the nicer car will then also be much more expensive to keep on the road…and it just makes no sense.

notesinthefield• 1 year ago

The closest thing to affordable and comfortable I could find this past year after maintenance costs pilling up on my ‘15 Ford Fiesta (that I got for a staggering $14k post college) was a Honda HRV Sport. Has all the basics, incredible sensing system, lots of space decent gas mileage and drives well at around 28k in Ohio. My partner has an Accord and honestly its a better car. Incredibly good gas mileage, reliable, perfect for an A to B person that doesnt want to worry about their car.

briandw2• 1 year ago

They don't mention the amount of mandatory additions to the car from government regulations. Obviously not the only factor but it's certainly a factor. Cars now have 6 to 8 airbags, backup cameras, more high strength steel, automatic breaking systems etc etc. I love the safety that those all bring, but it's not free.

neogodless7• 1 year ago

automatic breaking systems

Literal planned obsolescence!

ReptileMan2• 1 year ago

Or just being BMW. They also break automatically. No need for government mandated feature.

briandw2• 1 year ago

my dyslexia strikes again

WillPostForFood• 1 year ago

Also a lot more complexity under the hood to meet mileage standards - CVT or 8 speed automatic transmissions, turbo chargers, stop-start tech, etc...

zbrozek• 1 year ago

I wonder if there's a business model in leasing cars from Mexico to Americans and swapping around once a year to get around the problem of having Mexican plates. Then you can get Chinese cars into America.

nebula8804• 1 year ago

This made me laugh out loud thank you. They will clamp down on this so fast though. If its something that will help the average joe it will never get done but something like this threatens leadership so it will get shut down in record time.

If theres any Chinese entrepreneurs that have a line into their EV companies reading this, use some of that China speed and get on this now. You might as well squeeze out a little profit before they clamp it down! :D

aorloff• 1 year ago

Nobody else has said it so I guess I will.

The reason the US car industry does not want a $25k car is that the financing opportunities are crap for a car of this low cost.

In the same way that airlines exist to offer you a miles based credit card, the US car dealerships survive by offering you a loan for the car. Or perhaps, a car to go with your structured finance opportunity.

haskellandchill• 1 year ago

proud owner of a financed 2024 manual nissan versa here :) but yeah the dealership made almost no money and I put down a deposit when it was a couple months from coming in at a location far from where I live. it's a $20k car though.

droopyEyelids• 1 year ago

There was a finance charge on your loan that was probably around $1k so that's 5% the dealer made right there instantly for no work

BLKNSLVR10• 1 year ago

Could this be stated as perverse incentives as a result of attempts to differentiate from cookie-cutter-identical competitors?

Whereby the profit shifts from the product itself to the differentiating value-add.

SoftTalker4• 1 year ago

Buy the best used car you can afford for cash and forget all that dealership nonsense

financypants2• 1 year ago

The small and quasi-loophole to getting a good used car deal is buying a hail damage car. I genuinely don't understand why cars were made to have shiny paint. Cars drive on dirty roads with insects and pebbles abound. Paint doesn't matter. Car washes are crazy, except to abait rust

thayne• 1 year ago

Unfortunately, the decrease in supply of budget cars hurts people buying used cars as well for two reasons:

1. With less people able to afford new cars it increases demand for used cars, which pushes up the price

2. There will be less budget cars that eventually end up in the used car market, and the increased price of new cars will trickle through to used cars

dyauspitr2• 1 year ago

It depends. It doesn’t make sense to not get a car you can afford for 0% interest. I could have outright paid for my current vehicle but over the 3 years at 0% interest I earn 6% to make a few thousand over the lifetime of the loan.

socalgal2• 1 year ago

unless there's illegal collusion, someone will see a market opporunity and step in to fill it.

That said, a quick search for new cars under $25k: Chevrolet Trax $20.5k, Nissan Versa $17.2k, Hyundai Venue $20.5k, Kia Soul $20.5k, and Nissan Kicks $22k. Other options include the Toyota Corolla $22.3k, Hyundai Elantra $22.1k, and Volkswagen Jetta $22.5k

I think maybe the article is BS?

AngryData• 1 year ago

There is market opportunity, China has found it, but the US won't allow them to be imported because it undercuts everyone else so thoroughly. The US automotive market is extremely far from being a free and open market. You can't just build a car to a set of standards and automatically be allowed to sell them, there are substantial legal and political barriers that cost tons of money to overcome, which doesn't make financial sense to anyone with that amount of money to just sell low margin vehicles.

Glyptodon3• 1 year ago

I strongly agree with a generalization of the article - that cars have increased in price relative to their quality and value to the point that it's nationally problematic. There's a whole pile of cars that have gone from sub $20k to the high $20ks and above. Most of the cars you list will also have essentially non-optional packages, delivery charges, and more costs rolled into their price. At the same time it's not easy to find used cars that don't cost nearly as much as new cars unless they're pretty old and high mileage.

And it seems clear there's no rational reason that cars should subject to a higher rate of inflation than any other good.

It seems very clear that somehow the market is broken. Whether it's because new competition is impossible because only the established can achieve the necessary economies of scale, protectionist regulation,the dealership model, or something else, it's pretty clear something is broken. Just like with much of the rest of things in the US and maybe the world.

tshaddox4• 1 year ago

unless there's illegal collusion

Illegal collusion is not the only thing that can prevent a competitive market. Large barriers to entry and imperfect information are two other textbook examples.

potato373284228• 1 year ago

It's not "illegal collusion" when you pay off your lobbyists to get them to legislate the status quo into place.

ponector4• 1 year ago

> I think maybe the article is BS?

Totally. Cars are there available. The thing is consumers don't want small cheap basic cars.

remus2• 1 year ago

It was a funny experience going to buy a used car with my partner a few years ago. Being a little naive I'd assumed being a cash buyer was a plus as they'd guarantee a quick sale, but as soon as the salesman realised he wasn't going to be signing a finance deal you could see him lose interest entirely. kinda funny to think they're in the business of selling loans rather than cars.

Spivak• 1 year ago

Or if you come with your own financing. I usually talk to the "finance guy" at the dealership because (so I've been told) they sometimes run promotions and can give you a rate better than your bank but lord heavens I've never seen it.

They once offered me more than double the rate of my bank and for 2.5 times the term length. I'm sure that $150/mo or whatever payment for the rest of our life is attractive to someone but I just laughed. They really don't like people who are looking to minimize total interest paid.

snarf21• 1 year ago

This is exactly true. Dealership profit centers are loan origination and extended warranty origination. Parts/Service is designed to pay the bills. (Source: My dad has been selling new cars for 40+ years)

(This is kinda like the Costco model where they aim to break even on all sales with profit only being the membership fees).

maxglute• 1 year ago

Problem is a 40k car interior feels worse than a 15k Chinese car. The Koreans are trying, but like Samsung, not too hard.

standardUser2• 1 year ago

Americans like to upgrade their cars, not unlike their cell phones, and they often have a monthly car payment (or two) that never permanently goes away.

That makes some sense to me, but if the goal is to always have a nice car, doesn't it makes much more sense to lease? The monthly payments will be a few hundred bucks less and you can upgrade every 2-3 years. And from what I understand, leasing agents like to give incentives after your first lease to keep you in the cycle.

Personally, if I were aiming for the most economical option, I'd lease a Nissan Leaf for ~$300/mo.

timewizard2• 1 year ago

Read that lease contract carefully. It's meant for a very narrow segment of drivers.

standardUser2• 1 year ago

Yeah, it's for people without crazy commutes. It's not as cryptic as you want to make it seem.

AdieuToLogic2• 1 year ago

... but if the goal is to always have a nice car, doesn't it makes much more sense to lease? The monthly payments will be a few hundred bucks less and you can upgrade every 2-3 years.

Leasing a car always includes an initial payment (in the several thousands) and typically have severe penalties for exceeding allotted mileage, any damage (even if only cosmetic), and/or if mandatory dealer maintenance is not adhered.

The monthly payments are not as disparate as one might think when the initial payment is amortized over the course of the lease along with dealer maintenance expenditures.

jccalhoun2• 1 year ago

in 2021 my beloved Honda Fit got totaled. I bought it new in 09 and only had 80K miles on it. They don't sell new ones in North America any more. So I bought a Kia Rio. They don't make those any more. I don't really like it but with the current chaos in the economy I'm not trading it in any time soon.

I was in the UK for the first time last month and was struck by how many hatchbacks and sedans they have that we don't in North America.

cosmic_cheese• 1 year ago

The dwindling of small hatchbacks in the US is so disappointing it’s difficult to put into words. They were the perfect little suburb grocery grabbers, and now you can’t buy them without overpaying for a used one. The next best thing is a sedan that’s longer and harder to maneuver and park despite having markedly worse cargo space and utility, and to get a hatch (not just a liftback) you’re forced into crossovers/SUVs which carry a chunky price premium.

What I wouldn’t do to bring the Fit and Yaris hatch back to the US market.

s0rce2• 1 year ago

If you want AWD a crosstrek or impreza are good little hatchbacks, ignore the "cross" in the name, its much more hatchback than it is a mini-SUV. It is sad that so many of the other little hatchbacks are gone (ex. fit, vibe, etc).

nradov5• 1 year ago

You can buy a Subaru Impreza hatchback.

redwall_hp2• 1 year ago

The closest Honda is probably what I replaced my 2007 Fit with: the hatchback Civic. It's a little longer, and has less usable cargo height, but otherwise is similar enough. (It tolerates my height better too.) Also available in fun, fast versions.

freetonik3• 1 year ago

The biggest flaw of Civics (even the latest model) is the lack of height adjustment for the front passenger seat.

tonyedgecombe• 1 year ago

The UK is heading down the same path, the best selling car used to be the Ford Fiesta but it has been discontinued now. VW have dropped the Up. Skoda aren't replacing the current Fabia. The general trend is towards bigger SUV's.

The second hand market isn't great because we stopped making cars during Covid so there is a dearth of four/five year old models.

The only light at the end of the tunnel is EV's are now comparable to their ICE equivalents price wise.

raesene9• 1 year ago

There's a load of really good deals on EVs at the moment from what I've seen, I'm guessing cars coming off corporate lease.

From https://www.cinch.co.uk/used-cars/electric-fuel-type?fromYea... there seems to be quite a lot of 2022+ EVs available for ~£10k with relatively low mileages.

So if you've got space for a home charger, those could be pretty good deals.

globular-toast• 1 year ago

And it's even more ridiculous because we don't even have the space for these things. People driving round in these monstrosities, struggling down narrow lanes or into parking spaces. Is nobody able to see further than their nose? What are you going to do when everyone has one? I suppose demand bigger roads, more parking etc. And who's going to pay for that? A classic tragedy of the commons.

throwaway1737385• 1 year ago

Is anyone else thinking of buying a used panel van instead of a pickup now that they’re so tall you need a ladder to climb into the bed?

ARandomerDude• 1 year ago

I have one and it’s awesome. You also don’t have to worry about someone snatching items out of the bed.

The biggest downsides are (1) I’m reluctant to put anything gross back there (vs throwing a trash bag in the bed like I used to with my truck), and (2) people see a van, assume you’ll drive obnoxiously slowly, and preemptively cut you off in traffic lest they get stuck behind you.

Overall, the pros outweigh those 2 cons for me.

namibj2• 1 year ago

Against 2, speed flames could help? Though they may have net-negative effect on safety for obvious reasons.

AdieuToLogic2• 1 year ago

IIRC, at one point Ford priced the Model T (which ultimately became the Ford Taurus decades later) to be at or near the US individual average annual income and maintained this price structure throughout.

With last year's lowest (by state) average annual income being Mississippi at $45k, there is little reason for any car manufacturer to produce a $25k MSRP vehicle.

laidoffamazon• 1 year ago

It’s mass affluence. People are just willing to pay $30k+ new now - something that was a lot rarer even 10 years ago.

zeroq6• 1 year ago

Last year we bought a car.

While not being a petrol head I was still living in a lala land where you could buy a brand new car for 10k EUR. Nothing fancy, just "a car". Obviously it turned out to be not true.

After some digging it turned out that in the last 10 years the price of cars went double. Literally double. Same car, like Fiat Panda, with the same engine and configuration, that ten years was worth one potato is now worth exactly two potato.

Long story short, the entry level car now costs close to 25k EUR. [1]

But here's the kicker.

While subvenstions seem to fail in most cases for regular people - like gvt giving people money to buy apartements equals to apartments being equally more expensive - it seems to work wonders for automotive thanks to Chinese.

EU offers up to 10k EUR subvention for electric cars and with that in mind you can get something like BYD Dolphin for slighly less than 20k EUR. Which is mind blowing. The car is comparable to Volvo XC40. Of course this is just an example and there is plentiful of other options.

[1] If you're not familiar or comfortable with EUR just think 1 EUR is 1 USD and you'll be fine.

tricolon• 1 year ago

I'd never seen the word "subvention" before. Today I learned it's another way to say "subsidy".

ml_basics• 1 year ago

It's a europeanism. In both French and German (and probably other EU languages) the word for "subsidy" is something like "subvention" so native speakers of these language often reach for an unnatural word in English.

Btw other examples include "actually" which is used to mean "currently", and "eventually" which is used to mean "maybe".

Personally I'm torn whether to consider this incorrect use of the language as it is quite widespread. Maybe it would be better to consider this as the emergence of a new dialect.

zeroq6• 1 year ago

I'm really sorry, engrish is really hard

zeroq6• 1 year ago

here's a list of words that will help you communicate better with Elbonians:

  sympathetic - pleasent
  pathetic - exalted
  eventually - alternatively
  actually - currently
  lecture - reading
  fabric - factory

MarcelOlsz2• 1 year ago

On the other hand you could have bought a mint condition E30 late model for $10k euro.

leakycap13• 1 year ago

Yes, but repair costs haven't gone down and the E30 will need maintenance and repair at $10k euro. Time without a car or an unreliable car also doesn't work for most working people these days.

friendzis• 1 year ago

Have a car that's effectively uninsurable and then spend months sourcing parts that are not chinesium whenever something breaks? For the same 10k you can get F30 which is not even in the same league as a daily people mover and is actually repairable.

eptcyka• 1 year ago

A car without isofix, adaptive cruise and worse crash safety.

Sweepi• 1 year ago

EU offers up to 10k EUR subvention for electric cars and with that in mind you can get something like BYD Dolphin for slighly less than 20k EUR.

"The EU" does not offer subsidies for any car, some member states do (And I have never heard of a subsidy of 10k per car). On the contrary, Chinese cars are strongly tariffed by the EU.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, however, until someone provides a link, I label this post "hyperbullshit".

ddeck• 1 year ago

Chinese EVs are certainly strongly tariffed. The below Reuters article highlights how BYD are apparently shifting to plug-in hybrid sales to avoid the 27% tariff the EU imposes on its pure battery electric vehicles (plug-in hybrids attract a reduced 10% tariff).

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chines...

askl2• 1 year ago

It's just a comment generated by some trash AI

numpad0• 1 year ago

EU offers up to 10k EUR subvention for electric cars and with that in mind you can get something like BYD Dolphin for slighly less than 20k EUR. Which is mind blowing.

BYD Dolphin? MSRP for that car where I am is at 2.99m JPY(17k EUR, 20k USD). You guys are getting screwed.

hibikir2• 1 year ago

Higher transport costs, plus very large tariffs on Chinese electric cars. The EU believes (quite accurately), that there wouldn't be much of a EV industry if they let the real prices stand on their own. So there's the big tariff, and a rebate that blanks it, but also subsidizes the EU competitor.

pjc50• 1 year ago

The UK discontinued EV direct subsidy, and the Dolphin is still only £17k. Chinese economics is just built different. I am extremely tempted to try one.

tim3332• 1 year ago

Yeah. It was only just pre covid, 2019 you could get a new panda for ~10k eur. I think a lot is the push to go electric.

Governments want manufacturers to sell like 25%+ electric cars and customer won't buy so many if they can get a 10k petrol instead.

bboozzoo• 1 year ago

Long story short, the entry level car now costs close to 25k EUR. [1]

Just this February I bought brand new 2024 Clio for ~17k EUR, gas+LPG. At least until July it was super easy to get even better deals on small/compact cars with ICE engine. Hybrid engines are closer to 25k EUR.

1970-01-012• 1 year ago

After some digging it turned out that in the last 10 years the price of cars went double. Literally double. Same car, like Fiat Panda, with the same engine and configuration, that ten years was worth one potato is now worth exactly two potato.

You communicated the concept perfectly. Anyone holding onto a pile of say 10k cash in 2015 have exactly 5k cash value in 2025. But here's a hidden kicker. Storing any functional vehicle in cheap storage is turning out to be a sold form of investing.

sambf• 1 year ago

A used Renault Twingo II with AC cost around 5k€ if you want "just a car"

zeroq6• 1 year ago

I was talking about a brand new car at the dealership.

A used car is completely different can of worms.

sakopov• 1 year ago

I was in the market looking for a used SUV for my wife to haul around our kids last year. Dealing with dealers who wouldn't budge even a few hundred off the inflated listing prices, the interest rates on financing and then the insane insurance costs was not pleasant. I have an old Subaru beater that I was also thinking about upgrading but after this whole fiasco I decided to spend some money to fix body and small mechanical issues myself and drive this thing another 10 years hopefully. It's just not worth it.

BLKNSLVR10• 1 year ago

Subaru's have an increasingly good reputation for long-term reliability. Stick with and love the beater.

I find a certain liberation in not caring too much about risks of car park dents and "curb rash" and other surface-only non-mechanical auto-maladies.

financypants2• 1 year ago

Free yourself from the worry of shopping cart dings today! My solution was buying a hail damage car.

brianaker• 1 year ago

You obviously have not been following Subaru, while what you are saying was once true, it has not been true for several years now.

Google "Subaru battery", read about all of the additional electrical problems that are the result of Subaru being unwilling to fix a problem that is the end result of them selling your data.

Subaru stopped making reliable cars somewhere around 2014.

redwall_hp2• 1 year ago

Yeah, haggling over used cars is dead and buried. The market doesn't accommodate it in a world where there's more demand for used than ever.

1. More people got priced out of new cars.

2. More people are driving their cars longer.

3. Caravana and other online predatory loan machines are outpaying dealerships for cars, and flipping them for nearly credit card level interest rates.

Also, us millennials don't want to deal with that shit anyway. List the price, keep it near KBB value and you have a deal.

blendo• 1 year ago

People like cars that can go 80-90 mph for hundreds and hundreds of miles while carrying 4 people. With crash protection.

Add electrics with thousand lbs of batteries, and you've got today's 4000-6000 lb SUVs, all costing an arm and a leg.

Dylan1680717• 1 year ago

Focusing just on gas cars: People wanted that ten years ago too (and twenty and thirty), so what changed?

dagw6• 1 year ago

People like cars that can go 80-90 mph for hundreds and hundreds of miles while carrying 4 people. With crash protection.

My 12 year old entry level sedan does all of that no problem.

jimmar• 1 year ago

The article compares 2025 prices to 2019 prices. We've had high inflation building upon high inflation for the past several years, so I'm not shocked that prices are higher. We might as well ask where the $1 menu went at fast food restaurants. Yesterday's prices are long gone.

lastofthemojito• 1 year ago

Electric vehicles eliminated the need for manufacturers to sell (usually small and cheap) efficient ICE cars in the US.

For years, CAFE regulations have meant that manufacturers must meet minimum fleet fuel economy averages or else pay fines. In order to sell more profitable but less fuel-efficient F-150s, Ford also needed to sell little Fiestas or Focuses. In order to sell Suburbans, Chevy also needed to sell Cavaliers or Sonics. But now that Ford can sell Mustang Mach-Es and Chevy can sell Blazer EVs for 50 or 60 grand AND get credit for something like 100 MPG equivalent, there's no longer any incentive for them to spend huge sums developing cheap cars that will net tiny profits (if any).

ggm-at-algebras2• 1 year ago

if you don't believe in market regulations, this is confirming evidence of the distortions of trying to regulate an open market.

If you believe in climate change, this is evidence of how the vested interest behind profit in cars manipulates the intent of the regulations, to continue to get what they want.

It's a bit fish/bicycle, but the point is, we wanted more people to drive smaller, cheaper, less polluting cars. We didn't want the car manufacturers to find ways of maximising sell, including boosting F150 and F250 class truck sales to mummies on the kindy run.

DangitBobby2• 1 year ago

Sounds like something a functional Congress could address after the flaws in the legislation became evident. Then, they keep revising it as manufactures try to do anything but comply. If it costs the manufacturers engineering money to try to circumvent the intent of the regulation, they learn to follow the intent instead. It's not so much an argument against regulation as it is against a dysfunctional Congress. I don't think anyone was rooting for that anyway.

toast02• 1 year ago

It's a bit fish/bicycle, but the point is, we wanted more people to drive smaller, cheaper, less polluting cars. We didn't want the car manufacturers to find ways of maximising sell, including boosting F150 and F250 class truck sales to mummies on the kindy run.

Unfortunately, the whole thing wasn't built right for the goal. Setting the mpg bar lower for bigger footprint vehicles is on the one side realistic, but on the other side made it hard to build compliant small vehicles. Small trucks in particular disappeared; some say the market wasn't there, but annual sales of the Ford Ranger were pretty decent in 2005-2010 [1]. 2005 was more than the rest, but there were a couple facelifts, and the Chevy S-10 ended production in 2004, so there was probably some spillover from that. (The 2005-2012 Chevy Colorado isn't significantly bigger than the S-10 though). Post the mid 2010s, small trucks basically don't exist, even when small truck names are used. Supposedly Toyota and Subaru are going to bring one back, but we'll see if it happens.

Some sort of special small car class, with benefits, would be needed. Like the kei cars in Japan. Maybe not that small, and maybe not that small of an engine, but that idea of a smaller than normal footprint, but still highway capable, if only just. There is a federal 'low speed vehicle' thing, but the restriction to streets with speed limits 35 mph or less makes it hard to go anywhere in a lot of places. It's not a reasonable alternative to a regular car for most. There's also some recent push to formalize legal use of kei cars in many US states, but federal import restrictions mean they do have to be fairly old (or have expensive and destructive testing), which further restricts the market.

[1] https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ford-ranger-sales-figures/

leakycap13• 1 year ago

There are few cars I would want to buy in today's market. Cost cutting and price engineering is pervasive, even in extremely high-end cars.

deadbabe• 1 year ago

$25k car is a used car. It’s not even endangered.

doppp• 1 year ago

You guys get cars for under six figures? Haha nice, cries in Singapore

ArtemZ• 1 year ago

But why do you need a car in Singapore? I can't take my kid to school or buy groceries without a car here, it is a basic necessity and I hate it. But you have amazing transit and high density.

finolex1• 1 year ago

Tourists get this impression by staying in the city centre. However, if you live in an outer neighborhood, what would be a 15 min car ride can easily become a 40 minute journey on public transport if you have to walk to the train station, take the train, and perhaps take a bus for the last mile. Now imagine you have a kid in tow or an elderly parent.

Yes, public transit is not a necessity here like in the States, but it's a nice convenience to have, and plenty of people are wealthy enough to pay for it.

slg2• 1 year ago

I don't know why inflation is dismissed so quickly. The article lists the industry average price increase as 29.2% and the inflation value I got out of the US Bureau of Labor Statistics calculator[1] was 26.2%. So sure, "this isn’t just a case of inflation affecting the entire vehicle market" [emphasis mine], but it is mostly that.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

dingaling• 1 year ago

Retail inflation is based on the prices of goods, including new cars.

So it's pointless to compare car prices to inflation because they are part of the basis of the measure. Hence why they track closely.

anon7000• 1 year ago

Then it’s pointless to compare nearly anything to inflation, which means inflation isn’t very useful. You can still find many product categories increasing in price more slowly than inflation. Some much higher than inflation. So it is useful to compare inflation

slg2• 1 year ago

This can quickly turn into a philosophical debate rather than an economic one. Which value went up first, the chicken or the egg?

Personally, I think the way it makes the most sense is thinking of inflation as the change in the value of money rather than the change in the cost of goods, in large part because costs rise for non-goods too. For example, my employer pays me more today than they did in 2019 despite my employer not selling any goods or buying many goods outside of laptops for their employees and they obviously don't care about my personal expenses when determining annual raises.

mlyle2• 1 year ago

Saying you can't compare car prices to inflation because cars are in the CPI... We're really doing this?

New cars make up about 4% of the CPI, and used cars around 3%, so together they’re only a small part of the inflation basket. If new car prices doubled tomorrow and nothing else changed, headline inflation would rise by about 4%, but car prices would have increased 92% relative to inflation.

Inflation measures the decline in the value of money over time. If car prices rise significantly more or less than that decline can explain, that’s meaningful. If they don't... that's not.

bravesoul2• 1 year ago

For affordability the real question is median or mode wage inflation or deflation.

lostlogin6• 1 year ago

So it's pointless to compare car prices to inflation because they are part of the basis of the measure. Hence why they track closely.

What? So how do you use the CPI? To measure things no one ever buys?

speeder• 1 year ago

Last time I bought a car, my family kept pushing me to buy new, avoid used.

All new cars were crap and expensive. People wanted me to buy a Hyundai HB20 with a crappy engine that couldn't climb the hill where my house was located.

I ended buying a used Mitsubishi Lancer GT, the thing had same engine as Evo (minus the turbo), leather seats, roof window, rear camera and so on. For half of the price of the HB20.

Sadly Mitsubishi discontinued those and went on to join the SUVmania where your cheapest car is a big as a SUV externally, but that has cramped interior and none of SUV features.

dangus• 1 year ago

You put to words what I intuitively feel about the auto industry.

Most brands have cost cut the crap out of their vehicles to the point where many used models seem to be better vehicles especially when talking interior quality.

One example that was striking to me was the interior quality of the MK4 Volkswagen Jetta compared to later models of Jetta and Golf.

My current vehicle has CarPlay/Android Auto, a “dumb” infotainment system with no ability to phone home or snitch on me to insurance companies, and it has physical controls for everything.

When it comes time to replace my vehicle, what am I going to find on the market that’s actually better than that? I’m going to be stuck with a gigantic touch screen and a bunch of glitchy safety suites that are beeping at me constantly.

jmyeet• 1 year ago

In 2080, Apple introduced the Macbook Air. The first version was a mixed bag. The 2010 revision was a game-changer. Competitors just couldn't compete with the hardware you got for $1200 (13"). It was an excellentcompromise between power, weight, efficiency and price. This lasted years. After awhile, 4GB of RAM was light and a non-Retina display was somewhat lacking but it was still good. A $1000 laptop is almost disposable compared to a $3000+ laptop.

But this created a problem for Apple: it was too cheap. About a decade ago, the cult of thinness took over. The Air was replaced by the 12" Macbook that was too underpowered. It only had 1 port, which doubled as a power connector. We got the (awful) butterfly keyboard. And of course we got the Touch Bar. Rumor has it that this all happened because Johnny Ive no longer had Steve Jobs pushing back against him.

All of these things only existed to increase the ASP (average selling price) of Macbooks. There's no other reason.

My point here is that companies don't want to produce cheap, quality, commoditized goods. They want high prices (because that means high profits). Apple didn't want cheap Macbooks. Car manufacturers don't want cheap cars. This is how capitalism works.

Worse though is that these high prices are used as a weapon to drive down wages. These auto makers will say "our labor costs are too high" and try and reduce wages and/or remove benefits, often under the threat of moving jobs overseas. Then you dig a little deeper and find out that about 5% of a car's sticker price is labor costs.

The chase for ever-increasing profits ultimately means cutting costs and increasing prices. Always.

rsynnott4• 1 year ago

But this created a problem for Apple: it was too cheap. About a decade ago, the cult of thinness took over. The Air was replaced by the 12" Macbook that was too underpowered. It only had 1 port, which doubled as a power connector.

The 12" MacBook did _not_ replace the Air; it was a niche within a niche. The Air continues to be Apple's best-selling laptop, and starts at $999 (the $1200 price you give in 2010 is equivalent to about $1800 adjusted for inflation).

(In retrospect the 12" MacBook seems like a clear mistake, but at the time there was a bit of a bubble in subnotebooks, and Intel was making lavish promises for its ultra-low-power chip lines which turned out to be nonsense.)

We got the (awful) butterfly keyboard. And of course we got the Touch Bar.

Only in the expensive laptops; the Air continued to be the cheap option.

puzzlingcaptcha2• 1 year ago

You can still buy a new subcompact car (like a Renault Clio or Skoda Fabia) in Europe for under 20k EUR.

The more interesting question is why these cars disappeared in the US. And while many of the factors discussed here are true for both EU and US (inflation, interest rates, manufacturer profit margins etc) I am surprised no one mentioned the 'SUV loophole' of US regulations that effectively boosted the SUVs (off-road vehicles are classified as non-passenger automobiles with everything that entails, notably much less stringent emission standards) and made the small cars unprofitable to make in comparison.

radicaldreamer• 1 year ago

Spot on. most cars sold in the US are actually light trucks.

Propelloni• 1 year ago

Not to mention that those subcompacts of today are as large as a compact car of 30 years ago.

troupo• 1 year ago

Small cars are disappearing in the EU as well. E.g. Audi will discontinue (or have already discontinued) their A1 model (and it was the perfect little car).

yourusername• 1 year ago

The smallest class like the Daihatsu Cuore are already gone. The small cars that are left are significantly larger than the former version that shared the same nameplate. For example the Yaris is a SUV now. Can't really blame the manufacturers. The EU requires so much equipment on cars that you can't really turn a profit on a $10k car (like the Aygo/C1/107 was ~10 years ago). So if your car is going to cost $20k because of all the stuff it has to have it might as well be a bit bigger.

nicholassmith• 1 year ago

Renault at least are keeping the small car flame alive with the 5 and a new version of the Twingo. Audi's product strategy at the moment seems to be "try everything and pivot" so they might even end up relauching the A2 by accident.

Cthulhu_• 1 year ago

VAG cars are weird, I've had both an Audi A1 and a VW Up (short lease for work); they are basically the same car, both had a 3 cylinder, 1 liter engine, similar interiors, etc. But the A1 had the sports look package and generally a fancier feel to it. But VAG uses the same base for a lot of models and brands (VW, Audi, Skoda, SEAT); quality wise there's not much difference between them, but price wise they are, with Skoda being the 'budget' brand and Audi the premium. They also own Porsche but I don't know if they use the same base, I presume not... even though with the amount of Cayennes you see on the road here they sell Porsches at similar rates as upmarket VW / Audi cars.

rmnwski• 1 year ago

Also, the more SUVs are driven, the less safe people feel (and arguably are), accelerating the need to buy an SUV for safety reasons.

amelius4• 1 year ago

On the other hand, if you kill someone in a traffic accident, you feel shit the rest of your life.

Dig1t• 1 year ago

Isn’t your argument basically saying that people choose to buy larger cars when the government doesn’t step in and penalize people for doing so? European regulators basically just forcing people to buy smaller cars is what that sounds like.

Also Europeans make less money, pay more taxes, and have less access to credit, so they can’t afford more expensive cars like many Americans. Hence the market catering more to people less willing to spend a lot of money on a car.

The poorest American state, Mississippi, is richer per-capita than most European countries, including France.

dtech• 1 year ago

No, US also has rules for cars. It just has much more stringent rules for smaller cars, so SUVs and trucks have an unfair advantage.

It's like if smaller cars are taxed at 30% and larger cars at 10%, of course there are going to be more large cars compared to a place that taxes both at 30% or 10%.

yugoslavia4ever• 1 year ago

The poorest American state, Mississippi, is richer per-capita than most European countries, including France.

GDP and its consequences has been a disaster for the human race

oreilles• 1 year ago

The poorest American state, Mississippi, is richer per-capita than most European countries, including France.

The state, maybe. The missisipian, not so much - considering their Human Development Index is right in between that of Hungary and Bulgaria, at the very bottom of the EU. How great is it to be able to buy expansive cars if you can't get access to education, healthcare, retirement, and will find yourself in the street if you lose your job.

sofixa4• 1 year ago

Also Europeans make less money, pay more taxes, and have less access to credit, so they can’t afford more expensive cars like many Americans

Funnily your last point invalidates your first. Most Americans are loaded on debt, which impacts how much actual money they have left over at the end of the month. How many Americans can't stomach a $1000 surprise bill again?

Isn’t your argument basically saying that people choose to buy larger cars when the government doesn’t step in and penalize people for doing so? European regulators basically just forcing people to buy smaller cars is what that sounds like.

No, you're looking at this the wrong way. US regulators make bigger cars more lucrative for manufacturers, so they only do that. EU regulators mostly focus on safety and emissions, which also slightly favours bigger cars (whose bigger price absorbs the safety features better), but not nearly to the same extent. Two of the biggest EU car groups (Stellanti and Renault) both are publicly asking to reduce some of the burden for smaller cars to be able to make cheaper small cars. On the other hand, US manufacturers (even Stellantis' Jeep, Dodge, Ram) don't mind just churning oversized monstrosities.

The poorest American state, Mississippi, is richer per-capita than most European countries, including France.

GDP per capita doesn't mean what you think it does. Everything being overpriced in the US, and everything needing to have a middleman inflates GDP figures. Take health insurance, Americans pay multiple times what Europeans pay, to stuff the pockets of multiple for profit institutions and middlemen. GDP figures look better in the US, but really, which way is more efficient? Health outcomes are better across the EU, and the amount of medical bankruptcies is also telling.

piltdownman• 1 year ago

Ah this old Chestnut whereby agitators use the comparable GDPs of Bavaria and Mississippi as a KPI indicating Europe's lack of economic prowess.

In fact, it's just a scathing indictment of wealth inequality in Mississippi where life expectancy is 10 years less and infant mortality 400% higher than in Bavaria, despite their similar GDPs.

For better or worse the EU is run as a Society whereby the US is run as an Economy, a fact conveniently forgotten in these apples/oranges comparisons.

SirHumphrey• 1 year ago

It's also roads. On narrower roads smaller cars feel better and you have a lot more narrow roads in Europe.

epolanski• 1 year ago

like a Renault Clio or Skoda Fabia

Few caveats:

- those are generally promotional prices

- those prices are generally tied to financing (you really can't buy it cash at those prices, you need to finance it through them at crazy 7/8%+ rates)

- you can wait for the car even 10 months

svacko• 1 year ago

This depends on the EU country, I've just checked official Skoda site for our country and I found brand new 157 Skoda Fabia models available for the same day pickup below 20k without any special financing (from these 85 below 18k, and 22 below 16k)

benhurmarcel• 1 year ago

(you really can't buy it cash at those prices, you need to finance it through them at crazy 7/8%+ rates)

Often the case, but then you can get the loan and pay it off immediately for a fee.

mrweasel• 1 year ago

Looking up the Clio and it's $31,500 / €27,000, but that's partly due to the taxes on cars where. I'd guess however that you almost can't buy it.

The pricing is meant to hit a price point, in this case just below 200.000DKK. That's a promotional price, chance are that very few cars, if any, with that base package, have ever been made or imported. You can probably get it, but you'd have to wait a few months for it.

haspok• 1 year ago

Don't forget about Dacia, which is Renault's cheaper brand. You can even buy a Spring EV for under 20k - quality is what you'd expect, but for many people it is not an issue.

OtherShrezzing• 1 year ago

those prices are generally tied to financing (you really can't buy it cash at those prices, you need to finance it through them at crazy 7/8%+ rates)

I can't talk for the rest of the continent, but in the UK we've got "price on the road" advertising laws here. So if you turn up to a dealership with £20k and ask for a new car that's advertised at £20k, you'll be sold a car for £20k in cash. The dealer might try to up-sell you for financing, but you can just say "I'm paying in cash, and I don't want any extras", and they'll complete the payment & paperwork in record time so that they're able to move onto a more profitable financed sale elsewhere.

cbg0• 1 year ago

Not really, there's 43 brand new Clios available for pickup in Romania right now, starts at €17100, with the full hybrid €21000 before incentives.

14 Skoda Fabias in stock starting at €17625; €20500 if you want a few options and an automatic gearbox.

whatevaa• 1 year ago

They are disappearing in europe too. Emissions and other required by law equipment costs just as much on cheap car as it does on expensive one. At some point, cheap cars stop beinf cheap, just a bit cheaper but with way worse quality, so they stop making sense.

A_D_E_P_T3• 1 year ago

It's true that affordable European models are disappearing. The average mid-range offering from, say, Volkswagen, has become quite surprisingly expensive.

But this is why Chinese cars are taking over in Europe. Half the new cars I see are from Geely, BYD, Chery, etc. These average about 20,000-25,000 EUR new.

My own opinion, having looked into the matter a bit, is that you'd have to be insane to buy a Volkswagen or BMW at 2-3x the price. If I were in the market for a new car, I wouldn't consider anything but a Chinese car.

raxxorraxor4• 1 year ago

These regulations are probably used for protectionism. The consumer has to pay for that though. I don't think the market for new cars within the EU can exist for very long with these rules in place.

They partially demand systems that aren't fully developed yet, it is a completely insane thing to do. I guess other manufacturers pushed the EU to install the requirements to protect the dwindling domestic market.

pyb• 1 year ago

In what way are they disappearing ? Here's one for less than £12k. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?advertising-location...

dismalaf6• 1 year ago

Because a big part of owning a vehicle is summer roadtrips, ski vacations, visiting family, moving stuff. An SUV is simply more convenient. I've also found road maintenance is getting worse where I live, it's almost necessary having an SUV or truck just to navigate the suburbs.

Also the (semi) compact crossover has kind of killed the compact car. You get more space, better ground clearance, for a decent price.

CalRobert9• 1 year ago

What you don’t mention are the increased negative externalities of your larger vehicle, including a higher chance of killing people, more road space used for parking, worse visibility for others, etc.

OwlsParlay• 1 year ago

That's a big part of it for you perhaps, but not for everyone?

askl2• 1 year ago

I've also found road maintenance is getting worse where I live

Well, bigger cars are a factor that makes the roads degrade faster.

lotsofpulp3• 1 year ago

99% of people with an SUV will never use the "sport utility" aspect of it, and they could do all of the things you listed better with a minivan (Sienna/Odyssey/etc).

But the driver would have to sit lower in a minivan. Which is what SUVs are really about, the ego boost one gets from sitting higher up (and the associated feelings with being able to not have to settle for a minivan, and being able to waste a little money).

trinix9125• 1 year ago

Nothing my family couldn't do with plain Honda Civics. If you want more space in the back, there are also long versions of VW Passat and various Skoda models. Heck, SUVs usually have way less trunk space than those - they're just taller than your average sedan, but not any longer. You can see outside just fine, and get around with 5-6L/100km efficiency.

huntertwo• 1 year ago

You mean 23k usd? Corolla is 22k msrp i.e under 20k euro. Nissan versa is 20k msrp. Then account for the fact that Americans have higher income than Europeans.

TuringNYC• 1 year ago

I found that saving money on the car helps a bit, but not much -- the insurance costs are usually the dominant factor. Almost no one here seems to be talking about that.

presentation• 1 year ago

Or get a new simple Kei car in Japan for $9500

https://autoc-one.jp/daihatsu/move/newmodel-5030993/

bschwindHN• 1 year ago

I bought a used 2015 Daihatsu Move for $3000 last year, I love it. It has physical controls for everything except the windows and mirrors (I mean, still physical controls, but those are hooked up to motors). And it also has a simple stereo with USB audio. Gets incredible gas mileage. Perfect.

paganel• 1 year ago

You can still buy a new subcompact car (like a Renault Clio or Skoda Fabia) in Europe for under 20k EUR.

They're also on their out around these parts, very unfortunately.

madduci• 1 year ago

Fiat has just announced and produced the Panda, which is also a cheap vehicle. Also the Tipo was very cheap (15-20k) and Dacia makes also cheap, but good cars.

I still don't understand the urge in the US to own a Truck at any cost

potato373284228• 1 year ago

What a counterproductive comment in a world where the average SUV is something a lot closer in qualities to a traditional car than a traditional SUV.

Ford's linup is a great example how you people harping on SUVs actively detract from the discussion. What you call the Flex, the Ecosport and the C-max doesn't really matter. They're obviously by virtue of their attributes much closer to a "car" than they are to a traditional truck-ish SUV.

Every OEM's lineup has examples of this (Honda Crosstour anyone?).

The OEMs could make these things very cheaply if they wanted, look at the Maverick, a brand new model debuting at 25k. But they don't, why?

Orygin3• 1 year ago

Do you consider a Ford Flex to not be a SUV ? Thing's huge and most other example you provided are either clearly SUV or are bigger than they need to be to be a "normal" car.

AnthonyMouse2• 1 year ago

I am surprised no one mentioned the 'SUV loophole' of US regulations that effectively boosted the SUVs (off-road vehicles are classified as non-passenger automobiles with everything that entails, notably much less stringent emission standards) and made the small cars unprofitable to make in comparison.

This has become the irrelevant part because "does it have an electric motor in the powertrain" has become more important to fuel economy than vehicle size. There are hybrid SUVs that get better MPG than non-hybrid sedans, to say nothing of the full electric ones.

Which is another reason the average price is increasing. Hybrids have a lower TCO even though they have a higher initial purchase price. People who can do the math realize that paying more up front for a hybrid or full electric is paying less long-term. But then the market for lower priced new cars declines, because the people who can afford a new car can afford to pay a little extra for long-term savings and most of the people who can't afford to do that were buying used to begin with.

Ray20• 1 year ago

People who can do the math realize that paying more up front for a hybrid or full electric is paying less long-term.

Can they? In long term maintainability decides. And hybrids usually has it with maintainability pretty bad. Large area of potential breaking, expansive spare parts usually with strong vendor-lock.

Hybrids are very costly in maintainability, even if you are privileged elite that buys hybrid and in two years resell it and buy brand new car, even then hybrids looses comparatively big percent of its original cost.

So people that buys hybrids, usually CAN NOT do the math.

bumby40• 1 year ago

Hybrids have a lower TCO even though they have a higher initial purchase price.

Is this conclusion based just on fuel consumption? From a relatability standpoint, it doesn’t make sense at first blush because you have to have both ICE and EV parts in series in the drivetrain; the total reliability can’t be higher than the individual components of they’re in series.

Spooky232• 1 year ago

Only if you keep them for a long time. Most people drive around 15k miles, the gas difference ends up to about $2500/yr.

If you drive a lot, different story.

insane_dreamer2• 1 year ago

Hybrids have a lower TCO

not sure about this; hybrids require maintaining both an ICE and a electric motor/battery

The Prius may be an exception but that model has been around for a very long time.

A lot depends on gas prices, of course.

BirAdam• 1 year ago

Honestly, there are two different main drivers of US automobile pricing. The first was a combination of fuel efficiency and safety regulations that when combined were difficult to meet. One side effect is that all vehicles got larger so they could be in a different vehicle class and therefore have a lower fuel efficiency standard, and then in other cases the engines were made smaller with turbos added to make up the horsepower loss. The second driving force is just consumer expectations. Many companies did make cheaper vehicles that still met the regulatory burdens and people simply didn't want them.

With inflation pressures, layoffs, and other downward pricing pressures, we should expect consumer preferences to change, but I also expect that the global vehicle fleet will continue to age (especially as most vehicles are of sufficient quality that they needn't be replaced).

wodenokoto• 1 year ago

Even in Denmark, which has over 100% tax on cars, you can get a new vehicle for $20k

raxxorraxor4• 1 year ago

Car manufacturers that cannot build affordable cars are going extinct. 12000$ for a new electric car in China. That is the real competition.

I don't care about the prestige of owning a car, it is a utility for me that will never be worth 60000$. You can pay me 500000$ yearly and I would reconsider.

lm284692• 1 year ago

12000$ for a new electric car in China. That is the real competition.

And then people cry when their entire industry is moved overseas...

raxxorraxor4• 1 year ago

I get that they dump loans and the government allows for subsidies. But on the other hand car manufacturers already outsourced everything they could to other countries for larger profit margins anyway.

They act no different than companies like Apple or Google. So at least as a customer I need to profit from that too, I have no interest of paying large margins for nothing.

Why should only companies profit from cheap labor?

valeg• 1 year ago

It's hard to compete with the used car market. Aptera's Solar EV start at $26,800 (allegedly).

v5v3• 1 year ago

277+ comment on this thread when we all know the answer - cars are deliberately over priced, at full price level, so the monthly finance payments relative to depreciation forecasts look good to the buyers (renters) and there is a room for negotiations and offers.

Its HubSpot Marketing that is the winner here.

sexy_seedbox• 1 year ago

HubSpot stock isn't doing so well this year, gotta get their name out there to hopefully get some conversions for their overpriced product.

ganarajpr• 1 year ago

Dont know if this is available in US and Europe markets but I would consider Mahindra XEV 9e, BE 6E and BE 9E to be in the $25k segment and afaik, they are the best in the class for that price point ( in terms of looks and maybe even features ). I dont know if these are being exported out of India right now, but they definitely should be hitting the US and UK markets sometime soon.

mdavid626• 1 year ago

In 2004 my parents bought a brand new Skoda Fabia with 40kW engine (around 50hp). The car was pretty basic (no AC, no display etc.) and small, but it served our family of 4 for long time (still does!). The cost was 12.000 Euros. Nowadays the same car starts at 20.000 Euros.

Eavolution• 1 year ago

To be fair that's with 20 years of inflation (roughly 1.55x since 2004, €18,600 today), and that car today would have 90+bhp. I'm ignoring things like head unit/ac because they're things you'd probably rather not have and not pay for by the sounds of it.

DoingIsLearning• 1 year ago

Another financial point with impact on birth rates and demographics.

It is now very difficult (I can count with my fingers) to find a <100k car that can have 3 child seats in a row. Or that can sit 7 people that is not a SUV pedestrian child killer.

pattle2• 1 year ago

Spending $25k on a car (if they exist) is just an insane thing to do in my opinion. In the UK we are quite lucky in that the used car market is very good. I always just buy a ~£1,000 diesel and run it into the ground, then rinse and repeat.

I think in 17 years of motoring I've spent around £5,500 in total on cars.

BanterTrouble30• 1 year ago

It is a shame people run them into the ground. If looked after and a bit of money (not a lot of money) spent they would work well for another decade or two.

aembleton3• 1 year ago

Its more expensive with the cost of labour in the UK to keep a car going, especially once it starts needing welding. We apply a lot of salt to the roads in the winter so after 20 years most cars will need welding work.

Second hand cars are also cheaper in the UK compared to other countries because we're right hand drive so there aren't as many markets that they can be exported to second hand.

pattle2• 1 year ago

I MOT it (obviously) and service every year but if I know something needs doing that's going to be expensive I just live with it. Especially if it's electrical because that can be a mine field and cost lots of labour time. Sometimes I try and make repairs myself and learn something in the process

smidgeon• 1 year ago

A friend and I bought a car with a busted door for £100 some years ago, we got a cheap replacement door, incompetently resprayed it to be roughly the colour of the rest of the car and sold it, for £100 :-|

BanterTrouble30• 1 year ago

I work on my own cars now (as a hobby really) and one of the reasons the new cars are so expensive is they are much more complicated. A lot of this seems to be over-engineering IMO. This is alluded to in the article, but not explicitly stated.

The cars I work on are from the early 90s and everything is very simple to understand.

e.g. Electronics are normally simple circuits that aren't much more complicated than what you would find in a door bell and finding faults is normally just tracing wires and using a multi-meter. I had issues with the brake lights / reverse lights not working, the issue turned out that the spade like connector in the fuse box was pushed through and was making partial contact. Price to fix this was £0.

EDIT: Just remembered this isn't accurate. I had to buy a new reverse light. The entire reverse light assembly was ~£20. So the price to fix was about £20. The light assembly itself was like a big bicycle light.

My newer car needs a OB-II scanner to diagnose anything with a phone app. While this is arguably quicker it can be misleading. Sometimes it will be telling you that something is malfunctioning but it is really the sensor itself. These sensors are £200-£300 a piece. Replacing 4 glow plug sensors cost me £800. I was paying essentially to make the "you must service your engine" light to go away. There was nothing wrong with engine itself.

LightBug1• 1 year ago

Same ... I'm still running an early 2000's Toyota and got myself a VW Beetle 1969 just for the fun of it ... love maintaining them as they're so simple and rewarding and parts are cheap! ... And I can in no way be called a mechanic.

I've been lusting over the ioniq 5 for a couple of years but I'm just thinking, in 10 years time I'll be knee deep in your last paragraph ... I like long lasting cars

BanterTrouble30• 1 year ago

Yep. There a bunch of minor issues with my vehicle that I was procrastinating on, but the brakes lights not working is very illegal and unsafe, so that had to be fixed before I drove it. Was really pleased once I realised what the issue and managed to fix it.

All the newer cars feel like iPods with wheels and the driving experience is horrible. I am not interested in them.

Neikius• 1 year ago

Fully agree with what you are saying.

I do have some beef with the prices of these electronic gadgets in the car. 300€ price for a new sensor or something similar? Sensor costs are usually a single digit or below. Somehow vendors found a way to inflate that price and this is destroying the repairability.

BanterTrouble30• 1 year ago

With the prices of sensors, I was astonished and I thought the garage was having me on. I looked up the prices online and the garage weren't taking the mickey (it was withing 10-15% of what they quoted me).

reliabilityguy6• 1 year ago

Car manufactures make probably more money on parts than selling new cars

a_c2• 1 year ago

Any recommendation how to start learning repairing a car? I have absolutely zero experience. A friend of mine said just learn to change a tyre first and I have been procrastinating since.

standeven2• 1 year ago

Commit to doing all the maintenance on your car yourself to start getting comfortable with it. Easy jobs to start:

-replace cabin air filter -check for even tread wear -top up the wiper fluid -replace the windshield wipers -take off a wheel and look for tears in rubber bushings or grease leaking from seals. -replace anything broken like switches, trim pieces, etc.

Assuming it’s a gas car: -replace engine air filter -inspect spark plugs -check fluid levels: brake fluid, engine oil, coolant -check 12V battery voltage with the engine off and also running -change the oil

DyslexicAtheist3• 1 year ago

build one from scratch (kit car)

BanterTrouble30• 1 year ago

I am still a somewhat of a novice.

Your friend is right IMO. Do something simple first. Like a broken piece of trim, replace a light bulb, change the wiper blades yourself and build yourself up. I had repaired bicycles/motorcycles before hand.

Past that. I literally go on YouTube and watch someone do the task I intend on doing. I have the service manual downloaded for the car (people dump scans of the manuals online as PDFs) and a Haynes Manual (about £20).

Over the last 6 months. I've gone from barely being able to change the wiper blades to replacing a turbo.

I bought an older vehicle(s) that have a good aftermarket parts market and are known to be easy to work on. The simpler / less refined the car is the easier it is to work on.

elif• 1 year ago

I went down this route in the early 2010's. In preparation for an over landing expedition I wanted to have mechanical knowledge to be a sort of "mechanic" on the trip so I bought a bunch of "project cars" and began tinkering. While it WAS a lot of fun and I feel smarter, it was a total waste of time.

To save you all the trouble of all I went through, it was fun debugging mechanical stuff, but ultimately there is no "self-reliant car owner"

It all comes down to tools and parts. You need easy access to a lot of both or else you are limited to extremely ugly temporary fixes which amount to super gluing your engine back together.

On our overland trip, when we had an issue, it turned out impossible to fix without a massive lift and air tools, so all my years prep was essentially reduced to having a few extra words I could tell the actual mechanic capable of performing the fix.

If you still want to go down this route I recommend the book "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" and have 4 Saabs you can have lol. I'll even throw in the clutch kit you can't install without a custom Saab tool.

potato373284228• 1 year ago

Buy POS 30yo car and just start getting it in shape to be daily drivable. You can typically screw things up three times over before it'd be cheaper to pay someone.

All you really need is the internet. China tools via Amazon are "fine".

mrbigbob• 1 year ago

Look at your local community colleges if you are in the US. a lot of them have classes for simple every day car repair to classes to become a certified mechanic

MisterTea• 1 year ago

Theses kinds of questions have no easy answer. Ive done a lot of my own auto work including an engine swap with a friend years ago. This stuff comes with experience but it helps to grow up with an engineer father with a machine shop. It also helps enormously to have gear head friends and have a life long interest in mechanical workings.

Repairing a car these days is not the same as it used to be but I would start with the basics: maintenance items. As you mentioned, changing a tire is a good first step as it will teach you how to secure and jack up a car *safely*. You should also get familiar with tire pressure, acceptable tread wear and tire rotation. Once the tire is off you'll see the brakes and the suspension components. Disc brake pads are simple to change and a good next step: two bolts, caliper slides off, pop out pads, compress piston, insert new pads, slide and bolt back on, done. Under the hood, there are a few educational and simple maintenance items like checking and changing your: air filter, oil and oil filter, brake fluid reservoir, coolant level, and power steering fluid. The above items are like 90%+ of all garage visits.

These items are all part of various subsystems which make up a car so as you work your way through you will get a feel of what things do. With experience you'll be comfortable with popping the hood and getting your hands greasy. I also want to mention that you can and will get hurt, scrapes, small cuts and bruises are not uncommon, it's rough work at times. Take your time, be safe, wear ppe, and work with someone if you can.

pelagicAustral• 1 year ago

This seems like a really nice starting point: https://www.howacarworks.com/video-course/

Get to understand the internals and then dive into specifics...

thijson• 1 year ago

Youtube is one of the best resources. Almost every time something goes wrong, I was able to find a video of someone fixing that part, usually on the same model of vehicle.

Scanning for codes is useful too, every manufacturer has their own scan tool. For example BMW has ISTA+, Ford has Forscan.

I think that as right to repair laws become more prevalent, there will be more information generally available.

foobarian2• 1 year ago

I've done this for a little while, it was fun. Something I didn't expect going in is that 90% of my time was spent in removing parts that were rusted stuck, or hard to apply torque to (e.g. a bolt in the middle of an engine somewhere with very little clearance)

Der_Einzige5• 1 year ago

The reality is that learning how to repair modern cars yourself without the help of someone experienced is a great way to get yourself killed.

You might not know about Harbor Freight jackstands being far overrated and thus kill yourself by assuming that they will hold their rated load.

You almost certainly cannot find more than some youtube videos about how to do things on your post 2015 vehicle. Haines and other repair manual companies don't exist or on life support and haven't made a new guide since 2020 at the latest.

The average entry level talent, i.e. the folks at Jiffy Lube/Vavoline, are often doing things so wrong that it'd be better to never try to "learn" in an environment where they will impact and strip your oil plug, up-sell grandmas with fake dirty filters and "blinker fluid" stories, etc.

If you don't have an actual experienced mechanic to learn from (i.e. someone who can strip and put back together an engine and it runs perfectly) - don't even bother! I'm not joking and I'm exactly like you in that I want to learn to work on cars! But I've learned that the tactics that allow you to get to making 300K a year in tech without much of being taught by other people do NOT work with cars. You WILL need to socialize with a master mechanic. There's no other way.

oh btw - most of the stuff like oil and car related gunk that will touch you when you work on cars is TOXIC AS HELL. Same with what you will breathe (most people don't mask when they should in a garage and they often don't ventilate too).

lan3212• 1 year ago

Don't worry, would be my main advice. Find an official service manual online and follow it. Avoid following YouTube advice without checking the manual as well. Many people on there are not the smartest and will make things difficult for themselves or dangerous for no reason. (I only like M539 Restorations and The Workshop nowadays)

Aside from that, get a clunker or, even better, a motorcycle to work on (if they float your boat, of course). Motorcycles are wonderful because everything is easy to reach, light and usually kinda sexy for the year and price.

Again, don't worry too much. You can rebuild an engine if you have the tools and follow the manual. It's all just following steps. Just don't get clever if you're lacking a tool or something. Take a break, get what you need, don't start doing "clever" things because you feel like it's life and death to finish something right this moment, and you'll be good.

Edit: Oh yeah, and a welding course is probably a good idea down the road. I keep delaying it, but it'd be useful, and it'll also surely be kind of fun.

tmerc2• 1 year ago

Unless your car is very new, you have all the stuff you need to learn to change a tire in the trunk. Watch 2 short YouTube videos and go do it. It'll take you half an hour. You should use a torque wrench but if it was that critical, one would be in your trunk.

After that, look up your maintenance schedule, pick a job, then go figure out if you can.

When you get into bigger jobs, have a tow company and shop ready in case you run into problems. Mobile mechanics may also be an option.

alerighi3• 1 year ago

Yes, if they would make a basic car like in the past I would buy it. Everyone has to sell you too much, I want a simple car, I don't want either the stereo, I will add my own later (I can put it one that is better than the factory one for a cheaper price, but in a modern car replacing the stereo is almost impossible). There are a ton of useless sensors, the sensor that tells you if you have a flat tire (I think I can notice myself), the emergency call button (while everyone has a mobile phone these days), automatic regulating seats (pulling a lever is too much difficult), dual zone clima control (it's the same space in the same car, why I would want to set 2 different temperatures?), etc.

And in all this useless things that they put in a car, they no longer provide you with a spare tire, just an useless repair kit...

Hamuko• 1 year ago

I presume you're gonna buy a Slate truck?

https://www.slate.auto/en

bumby40• 1 year ago

Some of those “useless” sensors like tire pressure or backup camera are required by law. Even if you get a bare bones hatchback (manual transmission, manual locks, manual windows etc.) they’ll be forced to include those.

dgfitz4• 1 year ago

I do a lot of work on my own vehicles. I think a lot of the responses are from people who do not.

Paying for vehicle repair labor is basically a tax. They're making it harder and harder to fix your own car. I spent the afternoon yesterday trying to find headlight assemblies that didn't need to be coded to work correctly. Headlights.

All the outrage about right-to-repair around here, and nobody realizes the frog is almost boiled around repairing cars.

itsoktocry4• 1 year ago

Spoken like someone who hasn't owned a late model car.

I can put it one that is better than the factory one for a cheaper price

As someone who used to be involved in the car audio competition scene, those days are long gone. Modern sounds systems are great, and tightly integrated into the A/V system.

the sensor that tells you if you have a flat tire

The sensor will tell you when there's a rapid drop in pressure. You won't notice the flat until you're near driving on the rim.

the emergency call button (while everyone has a mobile phone these days), automatic regulating seats (pulling a lever is too much difficult), dual zone clima control (it's the same space in the same car, why I would want to set 2 different temperatures?)

Old man yells at great features.

they no longer provide you with a spare tire, just an useless repair kit...

Yeah, they provide roadside assistance. Because changing your tire on the side of the road is dangerous (as is driving on the donut).

Plenty of used jalopies out there for you.

teslabox• 1 year ago

I agree that there are lots of useless things in cars, but the tire pressure sensors on my base trim 2013 Honda recently saved me a big headache.

I recently pulled out of a business and the "low tire pressure light" turned on right away. "Hmm?" My next stop was 1/4 mile away, and it still felt okay. At the next parking lot I checked all the tires with my gauge and found one was 10psi low. On closer inspection the nail was right on top. Sure enough I'd picked up a little nail. It was a slow leak, and I wouldn't have heard the hiss. If not for the sensor I might not have noticed I'd gotten a flat until I got on the freeway.

PSA: Check your spare's air pressure. Mine was supposed to be 60psi. It had 40psi, which was good enough to get me to the tire store. I checked the spare when I got home - the tire repair crew had bumped it up to 55psi.

My dad was leaving on a trip recently. Because 'spare tire psi' was on my mind I checked his spare - it was only 25psi.

dzhiurgis8• 1 year ago

FWIW repairing tyre is easier than putting on spare. So long it’s not a rare sidewall puncture.

lelanthran4• 1 year ago

There's more to it than 'electronics'.

Here's my more recent fixes:

-----------------------------------

1. The fuel pipe saga.

Fuel pipe from pump (tank) to engine is a single, molded, hard-plastic and inflexible pipe. Connecting it to new quick release attachments on either end requires a heat gun. At the factory they can heat-shrink the connectors onto the pipes as there is no fuel in the car.

When my quick-release snapped off[1] while I was replacing the fuel pump, dealer quoted my ZAR17,500 for a replacement pipe. To actually install it would require removing everything under the car because it is inflexible and molded to the shape of the car.

Older cars had less efficient (i.e. thicker OD pipes with the same ID) fuel pipes, but they were flexible and easy to route. They used standard clamps which are available for cents right now. The advantage of the newer pipes is that:

a) Cheaper to install (done by robots), and

b) With the quick release joiner, easy for a robot to snap on the connections on either end.

With the older, cheaper and repairable flexible pipes, the manufacturing process required a human. The more expensive pipes result in a cheaper-to-assemble car, even if the BOM is higher.

-----------------------------------

2. Heater blower motor refusing to come on. The AC units (including heater and blower motor) are controlled by low-current signals. This lets the unit have a rotary encoder when the human wants to adjust blower speed manually while still allowing the microcontroller to adjust blower speed when the user simply sets a target temperature.

This requires an additional current-splitter to limit the current to the blower motor (controlling the speed) while maintaining the voltage. When the blower is spinning at a low speed current is dumped into a heat sink and the blower gets very little current. At high speed no current needs to be dumped and the blower can spin at full speed.

My current limiter melted. This required a manufacturer-only replacement, as the digital signals controlling it are completely opaque to the technician (me) fixing the car.[2] Older cars without the rotary encoder had physical switches that switched the blower motor between one of 5 output speeds. Anything in the older system that broke can be replaced by standard switches and relays.

Anything, even the smallest component, in the newer HVAC system that breaks means you have to hope like hell that the manufacturer is still making parts for the car.

In this scenario, a 1995 mid-range car is going to outlive a 2025 mid-range sedan.

-----------------------------------

3. Engine and transmissions!

This is the big one: a 2015 car that, after 20 years, has a worn out slushbox, might have to be thrown away! Why? Because if you are unable to replace the clutches and springs and other parts inside the slushbox due to lack of parts availability, you can't simply swap in a new one, or replace it with a manual - the car is going to throw up a dozen diagnostic codes and probably won't even start.

That 1995 mid-range car? The engine and transmission are not coded to work with each other only. Swap in a Toyota v6 engine+transmission into a broke-ass Ford? Sure, why not?

Same with the radio. In older cars the radio was a swappable unit with standard sizes. In new cars the infotainment system is rarely a regular shape, and in those cars where it is nothing but a screen, it's still hooked into the CAN bus to deliver warnings!

You can upgrade your 1995 mid-range car to use the latest in infotainment technology (maps, voice commands, etc) by simply buying a head unit off Amazon. You cannot upgrade your top-off-the-range Range Rover, Mercedes Benz or Audi just 4 years after purchase!

-----------------------------------

My point is this: the older cars can, with simple mechanical and electro-mechanical non-manufacturer parts, effectively run until humanity just doesn't have fuel anymore. The newer cars will, once the manufacturer stops producing parts for them, have to be scrapped.

There is little incentive for the manufacturer to continue producing parts for a 10-year old car, and that gets even smaller as the car ages.

In fact, I completely expect, as time goes on, that manufacturers would (if they haven't started already) code each component to the VIN or secret key so that parts from a breakers yard won't run in any other car even if it's the same model.

Their preference is: When the radio breaks, it's time to buy a new car or live without a radio.

--------------------

[1] Plastic that over time got brittle.

[2] With a lot of work and lugging my ancient 'scope to the car, I could have worked out what signals were being sent (if digital; analogue would have been easier of course, requiring only a multimeter), designed a circuit around a MOSFET or similar and used a tiny microcontroller to read the signals and control the current.

tomrod3• 1 year ago

Planned obsolescence of durable goods is a nasty, brutal thing. MEs and SWEs in the space ought to be speaking out loudly about the abuse of their trade.

BanterTrouble30• 1 year ago

It does seem everything is over-engineered or under-engineered and cannot be taken apart. The Electrical stuff I mentioned because I was working on it over the weekend.

Gareth3212• 1 year ago

I think in time we see a similar trend with EVs. They are, by many metrics, vastly less complicated in terms of hardware. Software, of course, is another matter.

cogman105• 1 year ago

Software doesn't have to be complex. The most complex piece of software EVs absolutely need is the BMS and the charging protocol.

Everything else is super basic. There's a reason some of the earliest vehicles were EVs.

doubled1122• 1 year ago

I was shocked that we started replacing glow plugs one at a time.

I drove a 2002 diesel Jetta for a few years. $80 for all four glow plugs. It’s a no brainer to do them all. This was probably ~2015, it was old when it was written off.

This year, the cheapest I could find one (yes, just one) for my 2013 was $135 online. Cheaper online than a mechanic friend of mine could get it through any of his sources.

There is a compression sensor in there now adding cost, apparently.

geerlingguy• 1 year ago

Aside, I had never heard of a glow plug, after working on a few generations of cars... I figured it might be a US vs rest of the world thing with naming something like a "spark plug".

But I looked it up and for the benefit of anyone else who's never worked on diesel, it's part of the diesel ignition cycle it seems. TIL!

potato373284228• 1 year ago

A lot of this seems to be over-engineering IMO. This is alluded to in the article, but not explicitly stated.

I think a large part of the problem is that a sort of very scientific "modify a single variable at a time" type of engineering culture permeated academia a couple decades ago and now we're reaping what we sow.

The sort of practical "I snipped this corner so now they pack neatly four to a box from the supplier and I altered that curve so now there's clearance for more types of wrenches around the bolt head and I smoothed out the rib shape for die longevity and in doing all that I reduced the mass by 6.5%" type stuff that engineering culture used to look up to has been replaced with KPI chasing "You told me to reduce mass by 6% and I reduced mass by 7%, 2nd and 3rd order consequences be damned" engineering culture that used to be fairly confined to the rich half of a certain continent is now what is worshipped.

And likewise you get spiraling complexity because the only thing holding it back is the bean counters (when doing so is a priority) whereas before there was kind of natural restraint keeping it back on both sides. So as they go around updating platforms and models and sub-assemblies as whatnot the compliance ratchets up, unless the mandate at the time is to reduce it.

stronglikedan• 1 year ago

The cars I work on are from the early 90s and everything is very simple to understand.

If you were to take an older, simple to understand car, and add all of the modern features through aftermarket addons, you would end up with a car that is no longer simple to understand. They were simple to understand, because the feature set was simple compared to a modern car. (And I miss them dearly - can't wait to retire to find the time to find that love again!)

segmondy• 1 year ago

I read an article yesterday about how a simple nail puncture besides affecting tire sensor light, throws off traction control, abs, and all sorts of computing. what would be a 15 minutes patch and go job turns into an hour job of resetting computers and sensors.

harambae• 1 year ago

I recently had to replace a traction control sensor on my BMW -- it was a pain (and would've been expensive if I had a pro do it), so I can relate.

But it's worth noting that modern traction-control makes life wildly safer for the average driver up north. I was driving an icy Vermont ski road with winter tires, but (because I hadn't yet fixed the sensor) no traction control. There were 2 pretty terrifying moments and I'm an experienced driver. Your average American can't even drive manual, there's no way they're compensating for low-traction winter mountain roads properly in all cases. I'd rank it more critical than any of the backup camera, TPMS or FCW features, and maybe on par with ABS for those of us in cold areas.

Now if I lived in LA, I'd just hold down the "DTC" button to disable traction control on bootup and forget about it.

secabeen• 1 year ago

I found a similar thing on a cheap water heater. California requires an additional sensor to ensure the heating chamber doesn't overheat. It's not common generally, and the error messages when it triggers are not that helpful. After a few years of intermittent water heater failures, I finally realized that there was this sensor that was causing all the problems. I bypassed the sensor with a 1K resistor, confirming the issue, then had a new sensor sent out under warranty. Quick swap and it's been back to normal. I never found any documentation or repair advice that even considered that the sensor might be bad, and since it was California-only, most repair guides or technical documentation didn't mention it.

It's really easy to have a sensor failure that indicates a major repair is needed, when the actual issue is the $1 sensor.

medion• 1 year ago

This is all part of the continuing trend toward luxury - brands are abandoning the middle class and below, focusing on higher margins and lower volume - brands make more money, engage with easier buyers and have to work less. I don’t know how all this works in the end but it does seem to be a real trend.

the_real_cher• 1 year ago

Spending $25,000 for a car sounds insane to me.

Ozzie_osman• 1 year ago

The US seems insulated from the downward pricing pressure of Chinese cars. In most of the rest of the world, you can get a Chinese car ~30% (by my estimate) cheaper than a European or American one. It'll probably have more options and additions, too. I'm not sure how they'd do on reliability or safety, but it's generally hard to compete with them. Some of them offer 1M kilometer 10-year warranties.

blacklion2• 1 year ago

I cannot reply to each comment which mention "EU" or "Europe", so I write this one.

Why do you speak about EU/Europe as a whole? There is no such thing. I thought it is, but, now, when I moved to "Europe", I see that ti was illusion.

Prices are different across countries. Do you think Poland, Portugal and the Netherlands have same prices? HA! Compare prices in the Netherlands and its neighbor Belgium. I didn't compare prices for (new) cars, but I did for new motorcycles. Difference can be up to 20%. And it is two of three countries which are known as "Benelux", not two countries on different edges of EU.

Choice is difference between countries too, there are models which are present in one country and not in the orthers. Heck, even selection of a food is drastically different in two Lidls (two supermarkets of same chain) on different sides of Netherlands/Germany border in 10km vicinity!

Many people say that they see that almost all new cars they see are BYD & others — there is no BYD in Netherlands, for example. There is Lynk & Co (which is Volvo / Geely / Zeekr), and it's all of Chinese brands.

There is no such single entity as "Europe" or "EU". Different countries are very different in available goods, prices, taxes and regulations. Yes, there are global things, like GDPR or emission regulations (Euro 5/Euro 6), but still there are a plenty room for difference.

And even "single economic area" is illusion: you cannot simply register car or motorcycle bought in Portugal or Belgium in the Netherlands, you need to pay local VAT, local ecological taxes, etc. So no, there is no "lifehack to buy car or motorcycle in Belgium and save 20%.

benjiro2• 1 year ago

The "lifehack to buy car or motorcycle in Belgium and save 20%" is a Dutch only problem, as the Dutch Government makes car (and house) ownership extreme expensive. There is a reason why so many better off Dutch people buy properties and cars across the border, live in Belgium or Germany, and travel each day to work in the Netherlands.

For the rest of the EU, you can buy a Polish car, and register it in Germany for a few hundred euro's.

And FYI: The united states is the same. You can not just move cars across states if you live in a different state. It requires local registration per state (with different requirements), and local number plates.

Second: Yes, prices can differ for the same car, in different countries. And manufactures deliberately make it harder to price compare cars by changing the trim on each car / region. So the same car in Germany may have more features that are not present on the same car in Poland. And yet, again, in the States prices often differ per state. For the same reason why a Polish car can be trimmed down to be cheaper, vs a German version of the car: Not every state has the same medium income. So car manufacture / dealers, price match the cars and options, according to the local demographic.

The rest is a useless discussion as this is regional food, vs regional companies. You may discover that in the US, despite the same global brandnames, there are often large differences between stores, based upon the regional eating habits, and local food producers. Yes, there is more standardization because of the global monopoly level of food production but regional is still a major thing.

There is no such single entity as "Europe" or "EU". Different countries are very different in available goods, prices, taxes and regulations.

First off, its EU, not Europe. People simply associate the EU with Europe. That is a common issue and not something to nitpick about.

You may be surprised how much we already standardized across the EU. Have you ever left the Netherlands? I mean, not just cross border travel but actual work / live? If you did that now, 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, each time the difference are huge (as in easier and easier). A lot of laws and rules are now standardized across the EU. Hell, i remember the days that getting a piece of paper involved notarization and legalization, now its just a quick call to the ambt and you get a EU version of the paperwork. Valid in all EU states.

blacklion2• 1 year ago

I understand, that USA is not homogeneous too!

Have you ever left the Netherlands?

Rather no, as I'd moved to the Netherlands 2.5 years ago from outside of EU and don't have any rights to work outside the Netherlands :-)

It is not strict "No" because I've spent a lot of time (like, more than a yer on the span of 10 years, so more than month per year) in Germany on my previous work (in "business trips") and can compare everyday/household activities, but not bureaucratic or legal side of life, of course.

What I could compare is my experience as immigrant in the Netherlands with experience of my friends with same background as immigrants in Germany (lot of my friends had moved to Munich and Berlin same time I'd moved to Amsterdam). And difference is striking (in favor of the Netherlands). My experience with banks, IND (immigration department), Gemeente (municipality) and now even with mortgage (Which is cheaper than rent!) is much, much smoother that same experience of all my friends who choose Germany. Mortgage especially: no friends of mine could get approve for mortgage in Germany, even some of them who have salary significantly large than mine (like, x1.5 larger).

logifail2• 1 year ago

$25k ?!

The last car I bought cost just less than $12k USD new ( on the road including all taxes and fees) around 5 years ago.

I know inflation's been high, but not it's not been that high.

kleiba2• 1 year ago

around 5 years ago

The article is specifically about the price increase in the last 6 years.

logifail2• 1 year ago

The article is specifically about the price increase in the last 6 years

My point is that six years ago the cheapest new cars cost less, in many cases a lot less, than $25k. The article itself lists several examples.

kleiba2• 1 year ago

I'm not about this whole discussion - go to your favorite car sales website and filter for new cars and, say, 20,000 Euros. I see roughly 7000 cars for sale in Germany on mobile.de - of course, a lot of them will be instances of the same type of car, but there is variety and offers from multiple brands, both international and European.

pastullo• 1 year ago

I'm personally super upset with basically all non-Chinese brands. They used the post-covid inflation to drive prices up and like many people are saying here, now the 12k entry-level car is a 25k car. I bought a brand new VW T-Cross in 2021 for 19k and now the entry price is 27k, for the same exact car. It's insane. I understand people want bigger cars and even price conscious costumers are now going for compact suv (VW T-Cross instead of a Polo) so makers are definitely cashin in on this.

But there is also a Greed side to this story. Automakers have hiked prices, customers have kept buying and we finally (i hope) reached a breaking point. Jeep prices were apparently too high and sales plunged.

All of this makes me actually quite happy for the arrival of Chinese manufacturers. The price/quality ratio is extremely good and when i see the price i finally feel that it's a good deal. It makes me want to buy that car, while with most European manufacturers i'm just thinking of being scammed!

incomingpain• 1 year ago

Regulation is regularly increasing the cost of a car by demanding more. For example, if you demand all new cars have a rear-backup-camera, then you added a cost.

Govt is intentionally trying to cause at least 2% inflation. If you assume only 2% average over 50 years. A $25,000 car then is only about $9000 today; an untenable proposition. Lets be realistic, do you genuinely think no government in 50 years will exceed 2%?

The $25k car is extinct.

m82labs• 1 year ago

I’d be interested to see what this does to overhead costs of businesses that actually need a large vehicle.

I have a small horse farm and drive a 2010 F-150. I haul horses, 900lb. hay bales, feed, lumber for repairing fences and building shelters, etc.

If my truck breaks down I am going to have to scrape through used inventory to find something that fits my needs. I don’t need leather, 16 cameras, seat warmers, and a high end sound system. I need a truck that can get done everything I need around the farm, and I need it to be cheap enough that I’m not worried about it getting scratched.

All cars seem to be luxury vehicles now, I don’t know what folks are doing the just need something more utilitarian.

pif3• 1 year ago

Regulations have made simple cars unlawful, as simple as that. Tons of electronics are needed to respect arbitrary constraints.

28304283409234• 1 year ago

The Honda Fit was discontinued because they're so reliable there are now enough of them to last until the end of humanity. ;-)

wraptile• 1 year ago

ICE cars have peaked. ICE car from 2012 is almost no different from ICE car in 2025 other than entertainment value and this is why every manufacturer is targeting premium market even with solved ICE technology.

1970-01-012• 1 year ago

Completely unmentioned: Chinese EVs are $10k worldwide except USA.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/08/2025-byd-seagull-ev-sta...

vel0city16• 1 year ago

Untrue. Those same "under $10k" BYD models are ~$20,000USD in Mexico.

moooo992• 1 year ago

First of all, that statement is entirely untrue. These cars aren‘t 10k in most (all?) of the EU for example. As far as I know, these 10k cars are really only a thing in china and some SEA markets (I am not sure if these cars are really that cheap adjusted to purchasing power in these markets).

Beyond that, the chinese EV brands are in market capture mode right now. The competition is cut throat and the margins are extremely thin.

It‘s a market skimming strategy that will presumably be a last man standing scenario. If the winner(s) are decided, prices will definitely not remain as low as they are right now in some places.

sillystu042• 1 year ago

Beyond that, the chinese EV brands are in market capture mode right now. The competition is cut throat and the margins are extremely thin.

BYD is profitable. Admittedly that's more of an exception than a rule for Chinese EV brands, but BYD is also the most important.

It‘s a market skimming strategy that will presumably be a last man standing scenario. If the winner(s) are decided, prices will definitely not remain as low as they are right now in some places.

Even if most of the brands disappear we're very unlikely to get to an n=1 monopoly scenario. Even a couple dozen or so companies competing in the EV space should prevent margins from getting too high.

In the olden days the ICE industry was at times run by fewer than 10 companies per country, that was enough competition to prevent consumers getting too screwed by pricing.

safety1st• 1 year ago

American expat living in Thailand reporting in. I think the cheapest car in Thailand is the 2025 Suzuki Celerio which is a 5 seater hatchback. At the current exchange rate it's $9,800 brand new. Of course this figure is not adjusted for purchasing power (so what?). We have BYDs here and I haven't really looked at them but pretty sure a few are under $25K.

If Americans can't get a new car for under $25,000 but Southeast Asia can get them for under $10K, something is wrong. If the entry level car is 2.5x more expensive in America it means Americans are getting fleeced. I haven't lived in America for a long time and I feel like this makes it very obvious to me when the BS machine over there is in full spew. Free markets drive consumer prices down to the cost of production.

I don't know the auto industry in detail but it is an extensively documented fact that America has few free markets left, and they've been replaced by cartels - each industry has a couple of crooks at the top who rotate between private and public jobs. On the public side they come up with excuses to not enforce the anti-trust laws that are on the books, and they add regulations that raise the cost of business. On the private side they come up with ways to improve margins which usually involve fucking consumers.

Let's not make excuses for the criminals. America needs free markets and cheaper cars. Elite lawlessness is the cause of increased costs in America.

WiSaGaN• 1 year ago

Can you name one example of a consumer product that China initially sold affordably to gain market share and then later raised prices?

diggan4• 1 year ago

The Seagull (aka "Dolphin Surf" in other countries) seems to cost 18560 GBP in the UK, or 11.780€ in Spain. Haven't checked out other countries, but clearly "Chinese EVs (BYD Seagull/Dolphin Surf/Dolphin Mini) are $10k worldwide except USA" isn't 100% correct.

Seems fine to leave something like that unmentioned, as a quick check reveals it not to be true at all.

contrarian12344• 1 year ago

but I'm guessing those are post tax prices .. While in the US prices are pre-tax

So if you saw the pretax figures it'd probably be true

Xenoamorphous2• 1 year ago

Is there a typo in your message? I see €18,780 in Spain.

infecto9• 1 year ago

Completely untrue. Maybe in China or SEA but not for the rest of the world.

Chinese manufacturers have come a long way and I wish I could buy one in the US but they are also pricing at razor thin margins to starve out competition.

Even in Vietnam the Dolphin is $25k

immibis3• 1 year ago

That's just competition doing its job. The rate of profit, just like every other price, is supposed to fall to the minimum sustsinable level in capitalism.

chvid• 1 year ago

They get extra tariffs as well in Europe.

Some western countries allow Chinese evs without extra tariffs (Australia and the UK) but in general larger Chinese cars seem to sell better.

nisegami• 1 year ago

Chinese EVs start at like $300k in my country, which is roughly $44k USD. Local dealers are unbelievably greedy.

reliabilityguy6• 1 year ago

They are subsidized by Chinese government like the Toyota in the 70s by the Japanese.

kube-system18• 1 year ago

as are US automakers.

invalidusernam3• 1 year ago

BYD Seagull is $14k in Czech Republic.

cloudedcordial• 1 year ago

The car-dependent culture create a problem that you can't even go to work if you cannot afford a car.

trinix9125• 1 year ago

And this chicken-and-egg problem is also with public transit:

- to have people use public transit, it has to provide enough routes and drive often enough to be at least remotely comparable to driving yourself

- to do that, a lot of funding is required

- to get that funding, people have to use and pay for the transit (fares)

You can get some of that in with taxes, like many places already do, but there's only so much you can afford on taxes alone.

jvanderbot3• 1 year ago

Is anyone following Slate auto? They claim to be making a suburban pickup in the Ford Ranger size for ~20k. I've been cautiously optimistic about my reservation.

They apparently optimized for cost and molecularity, most notably by removing the infotainment system, which apparently is the biggest warranty / "feature" cost center.

bagels2• 1 year ago

27.5k, they're doing the dishonest thing of including tax incentives that not everyone qualifies for, and probably won't exist soon.

jvanderbot3• 1 year ago

Fair. But, 27.5 is very much in line with discussion around affordable cars (esp vs entry level trucks nowadays).

chis• 1 year ago

It's a pretty car but I feel like they are mostly just selling a story about cost savings. Third party carplay screens can be bought for $150 so that just can't be very meaningful. The real cost savings is that it's a cheaply built EV with a small battery. Plus it's hard to get excited talking about the price a startup is claiming to sell cars at, before any have made it to consumers.

That being said the car looks sweet. I hope we have more startups making retro-vibe electric cars since the barrier to entry is much lower than with combustion engines.

jvanderbot3• 1 year ago

Apparently (and I'm paraphrasing), the cost of the screen is not much. There's the cost of controls integration, at least, but also feature segmentation and warranty servicing. Apparently that's a lot of work to provide / cover and infotainment is one of the top warranty items. So it makes it a lot cheaper to just add a rack for your off the shelf bluetooth speaker.

hamuraijack• 1 year ago

$25k? What about when Honda Civics were $15k???

lotharcable• 1 year ago

Emissions, mileage, crash safety standards in the USA punish smaller more fuel efficient cars. The larger the wheel base or "shadow" of the vehicle the easier for it is to meet Federal standards.

This is why nobody sells small pickup trucks here. It is a lot easier for Ford to produce F150s that get 25-30ish mpg then it is to produce small trucks that get 40-50.

The Maverick is the only exception and it isn't really that small and it is also a hybrid.

Essentially the Federal government made selling small cheap cars infeasible in this country.

Also because vehicles last a lot longer thrifty Americans avoid buying new vehicles. They would rather buy a used one and let somebody else absorb the depreciation hit.

And when buying a used car most people are going to want a used mid-ranger or higher end car then buying a used economy car.

tlogan11• 1 year ago

Strange article based on incorrect information. My son and I are buying car and there are so many under 25k. In total there are 12 new models. Adjusted to inflation things did not change a lot in last 20 years (in 2005 there were 10 models less than 15k).

- 2025 Nissan Versa – Starting at $18,330

- 2025 Hyundai Venue – Starting at $21,395

- 2025 Kia Soul – Starting at $20,490

- 2025 Nissan Sentra – Starting at $21,590

- 2025 Nissan Kicks – Starting at $21,830

- 2025 Hyundai Elantra – Starting at $22,125 Ok - 2025 Kia K4 – Starting at $21,990

- 2025 Toyota Corolla – Starting at $22,325

- 2025 Chevrolet Trailblazer – Starting at $23,100

- 2025 Subaru Impreza – Starting at $23,495

- 2025 Buick Envista – Starting at $23,800

- 2025 Toyota Corolla Hybrid – Starting at $23,825

neogodless7• 1 year ago

-2025 Mazda 3 (sedan) - Starting at $24,150

-2025 Chevrolet Trax - Starting at $20,500

tlogan11• 1 year ago

And a few more:

- Volkswagen Jetta - starting at $22,495

- Volkswagen Taos - starting at $24,995

- Hyundai Kona - staring at $24,550

- Honda Civic - starting at $24,250

coro_1• 1 year ago

I'd guess these starting prices have likely gone up 5%-7%. And that the price to build, has gone down the same amount.

Which raises the bigger issue at hand.

arrozconcosas• 1 year ago

The answer is to buy a car off lease, that has 20,000 miles on it and is 20-40% cheaper than the new price. It is nearly identical to a new car and has 90% of its useful life remaining.

Shalomboy• 1 year ago

I mean that's just not the reality anymore. You could perhaps get 10-15% of the price knocked off here in the US, but 20-40% isn't accurate for anything besides high-volume luxury compact sedans, and even then you're skewing much closer to 20-25% in most regions.

s0rce2• 1 year ago

Agreed, there are some cars under 25k, however for some of these its difficult to find a dealer with a base model, they all have a bunch of "useless" upgrades that you won't want that inflate the price. I'd be curious if you an actually get an Impreza for under $25k.

tlogan11• 1 year ago

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted.

Reality check:

- In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000

- In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation)

So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This article is full of misleading or outdated information that distorts the real trend.

HN deserves better data-driven discussions.

adrianmoses• 1 year ago

Just curious: Where's the source of this "reality check" and what's your agenda?

enraged_camel• 1 year ago

They do not have a source. This happens on HN constantly: someone shits on the article with no basis in reality and no source, and their comment gets voted to the top and dominates the discussion.

alephnerd5• 1 year ago

Not OP, but you can use the BLS's CPI calculator. Their numbers are right [0]

Implying that OP is "Assuming an agenda" appears to break the HN guidelines [1]

[0] https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=20...

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

foobarian2• 1 year ago

Not to mention how much more functionality present day cars have. (mentioned in a couple comments elsewhere, but things like airbags/backup cameras/other sensors etc).

willsmith72• 1 year ago

Well of course, but tech gets cheaper over time too. Just look at the price and power of today's MacBook air vs 10 years ago. You get way more value for money as you should

happosai2• 1 year ago

All cars have become a lot more bigger. I was just watching the movie Jewel of the Nile on Disney+. There was a scene, where a dictator and the protagonists cram into to Rolls Royce of 80s and I just thought the average suv these days has more interior space...

While flight travel has got cheaper by making seats more compact and planes more efficient, the cars go the opposite direction - drive luxuriously like kings and burn the planet with bigger and bigger gas guzzlers...

pif3• 1 year ago

Cars have much more functionality these days, and it is good. But too much of that functionality is mandatory, and this is bad.

kachapopopow• 1 year ago

I think people are saying that you can't find a used car for cheap anymore more than anything.

dylan6042• 1 year ago

After the supply chain crisis which saw used car prices look like new car prices, the used market really never came back to a sane level. I also wonder how many people are in the market for cars old enough to not have all of the telemetry tracking, "everything is computer" touchscreen nonsense which could be having an effect on the supply/demand of that part of the used car market. I recently bought a car specifically with those features in mind.

csomar3• 1 year ago

- In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation)

You'll need to provide hard evidence for this. I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). That being said, it is possible we have more models now under 25.000 but what $15/25k used to buy you (segment wise) has downgraded.

mberning• 1 year ago

You are 100% correct. I was a senior in college and my beater died. I went to the Mazda dealer and talked them down to $13k on a brand new Mazda3. My payment was like $280.

Now inflation adjusted that is supposedly just shy of $22k. But it’s not the full story. That car was actually very nice for the time and to get an equivalently nice car today it’s not going to be a bare bones Nissan Versa or something like that.

mb7733• 1 year ago

I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup).

A base model Ford Ranger would have done it!

wsc981• 1 year ago

In 2024 Toyota in Thailand introduced a cheap pick-up that is a bit under 15.000 USD when THB is converted to USD. I think it's rather neat - the basic model is /very/ basic, but lots of options to customize.

https://www.toyota.co.th/en/model/hilux_champ?tab=commercial...

bunderbunder• 1 year ago

Not OP, but this seems like a decent source for the claim. It lists 12 cars under $25K MSRP: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars

That said, we picked up one of the cars on this list for well under $15,000 in 2010. (And it's still going strong! Never needed a major repair.) Which doesn't really mean anything, just throwing out yet another anecdote to highlight that nobody's presented any information that actually supports or contradicts the major premise that cars are getting less affordable. Segmenting your data by picking arbitrary cutoffs (like $25,000) has its own chapter in the classic book How to Lie With Statistics.

burnerthrow008• 1 year ago

Your memory is different to mine, and different to Motor Trend's, as well: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/corolla/2005

$15k would buy you a base-trim 2005 Corolla with an automatic or one level up with a manual.

In 2025, you can buy the LE or SE trim Corolla for under $25k, either of which are vastly better cars than the 2005 in any dimension you wish to measure. Safety, technology, comfort, performance. All improved.

margalabargala5• 1 year ago

The person you replied to found a "top 10 cars under $15k" list and thought that that was all the under-15k cars of 2005.

You are correct.

reliabilityguy6• 1 year ago

While I do agree with you, I think you have to account for income as well, and not only the car price (even if adjusted for inflation) to determine affordability.

giantg22• 1 year ago

Pretty sure inflation adjusted median income has increased from 2005 to 2025. But it sure doesn't feel like it. I wonder if other costs such as housing and healthcare have gotten less affordable affecting the real affordability. Inflation adjustments should capture this, but it feels like it doesn't.

weberer3• 1 year ago

adjusted by inflation

So the affordability crisis completely disappears once you adjust for the #1 thing that's been making things unaffordable.

sroussey• 1 year ago

Yes, my father bought a house for $10k. He still says it was very expensive!

senko• 1 year ago

Of course, you should be adjusting for the wage rise instead.

FRED figures show wages slightly outpaced inflation: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q (unless I'm reading the chart incorrectly)

greenavocado• 1 year ago

There are a bunch of nice Toyotas in the USA with MSRP just under 25K right now, including the Corolla Hybrid, which is pretty sweet considering how fuel efficient it is. https://www.toyota.com/

monkeyelite3• 1 year ago

- boomers like classic sports and muscle cars. They feel nostalgia towards them because those are the cars high school and college kids used to actually drive

- people who are looking for affordable cars buy used. That market has evaporated. I remember in the late 90s-2000s the newspaper had a junker section where you could get cars (that started) for $100. Imagine what you could get for $2000

- when inflation goes up you lose savings and don’t necessarily get a corresponding wage increase. So just saying it’s equal according to inflation does not mean it’s equal in terms of work hours or job training requirements

slackfan2• 1 year ago

Cash for Clunkers was a hell of a program.

pif3• 1 year ago

Are you talking about real cars or toy cars?

As an example, any vehicle with less than 4 places is a toy car. And anything as uncomfortable as a Toyota Prius is a stupid toy car.

insane_dreamer2• 1 year ago

HN deserves better data-driven discussions.

Where's the data?

dudeinhawaii• 1 year ago

While we're being data driven - the narrative isn't far off from reality. Looking at inflation in isolation is also misleading.

Plainly, prices have risen faster than pay.

Avg. new-car price: $23,017 in 2005 -> $47,465 in 2024 (+32% after inflation).

Median household income: $46,242 in 2005 -> $80,610 in 2023 (+12% after inflation).

Der_Einzige5• 1 year ago

This still doesn't tell the whole story

You need car interest rates to understand actual "car affordability" at any particular time. ZIRP era was far cheaper than right now where most new cars are 6% for highly qualified buyers (800+ credit rating)

Also, cars today last longer, have more features for your dollar, and are significantly safer and in many cases (i.e. toyota small cars like the corolla) can get 50+ mpg without the anemic and underpowered engines of the past.

marcellus23• 1 year ago

Is the average new-car price the average price that people are buying cars at, or the price that cars are being released at?

wavemode• 1 year ago

Average new car price is very misleading. When you buy a car, they don't charge you the average, they charge you what the specific car you're buying costs. If there are a dozen cheap car options for sale, it is irrelevant to me that there are also some more expensive options for sale.

tlogan11• 1 year ago

We can also say that the average cost of education has risen 141.0% over the last 20 year.

So I’m not saying that things are not expensive now: but not having cheap cars is not the reason for that. And that is what the article is saying.

jshen• 1 year ago

You shouldn't compare an average to a median in this way.

lovich• 1 year ago

We’ve also got 0% down 7-10 year car loans now when they used to be much shorter terms.

The car market is highly manipulated between financing, the literal laws protecting dealership monopolies, insurance, etc.

No simple analysis on a handful of metrics will show the full picture

tmerc2• 1 year ago

For under 47k, (off the top of my head) you can buy a Subaru BRZ, Toyota gr86, Toyota gr Corolla, Honda Civic type r, Subaru WRX, VW gti... None of those are budget conscious family cars so something is off with that average car price you quoted. You can buy a Nissan versa for under 18k today. https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/cars/versa-sedan/specs-tr... .

thaawyy33432434• 1 year ago

hard to compare 2005 ford focus or toyota corolla with 2025 model year. A lot of more feature, cars are safer etc.

_DeadFred_• 1 year ago

There is no 2025 Ford Focus in the US.

atoav• 1 year ago

Yes, only inflation is not the only thing you need to factor in. If you really want to answer the question of "are people correct in complaing about car prices?", you need to factor in how much money they have to spend on what.

A first ballpark figure would be calculating how much that pricebracket of car would be as a fraction of a median persons income or better even: how many hours they needed to work to get it – if you want to know if something is harder to get, this is the crucial info.

Just adjusting inflation like that is doing exactly what you critique others for only from the other direction..

Justsignedup• 1 year ago

Reminds me of the argument of "cars used to be more sturdy than today, where any hit is a total"

Um... Looking at videos of crashing old cars into new cars, the old cars DO NOT hold up to new cars in terms of breaking. The only difference is in old cars the engine would stay intact and the occupants not, while in the new cars its the opposite.

Glyptodon3• 1 year ago

I can't speak to the specific years, but there's no doubt that a fair number of small, less expensive, cars have been knocked off - the Rio, the Prius C, the Fiesta... I think there are more than just those (though maybe some of it is lineup consolidation, considering the eventual Kia K3). At the same time, some of the remaining options have had (IMO) huge MSRP hikes.

But you are right that a lot of the price increases relatively track inflation. It may just be that cars going up at the rate of inflation and used cars depreciating less, combined with uneven wage growth and high maintenance and repair costs is leaving a lot of consumers feeling pressured.

Though it's hard to track this down in a way that seems accurate, cars that are under 10 years old and 100k miles always seem remarkably close to MSRP to me, while those that are over those thresholds often seem massively depreciated, but that's anecdote and I haven't done a study. Interest rates me be another piece of the story. When I last bought a car they were basically zero or 1% I think. It gave the latitude to use debt w/o much thought. Very different now.

Which is to say, I do think it's plausible that it's true that some segment of the car market is tracking inflation, and that cars aren't affordable any more.

If that's the case, there's probably more going on, and it may not all be on the cars. Once again, venturing into anecdote, I know multiple people who've had significant wage increases since prepandemic, don't have much if any lifestyle inflation, and somehow seem to be in the position of finding cars and homes less affordable despite making quite significantly more. I'm not really sure exactly what's going on, but the way people are feeling doesn't match the numbers for a fair number of folks with above average incomes, and I can only imagine it must be a lot worse for those w/ less.

tlogan11• 1 year ago

less expensive, cars have been
knocked off - the Rio,
the Prius C, the Fiesta..

You are incorrect. Prius C in 2005 was $21,510 (not really "less expensive") and that is about $34,827.67 in 2025. (See: https://www.kbb.com/toyota/prius/2005/)

And in 2025 Prius starts from $28,350 (see: https://www.toyota.com/prius/)

So this narrative that there are no more cheap cars is incorrect.

SalmoShalazar• 1 year ago

Did you even read the article before making your comment? It is actually data driven like you are demanding, while your own comment is not beyond the most basic sense. A superficial count of models below $25,000k MSRP is not adding to the discussion.

tlogan11• 1 year ago

Two examples:

Example 1: The article claims that the affordable Nissan Versa Note cost $16,545 in 2019 and was discontinued. But not saying that this would be $21,168 in today’s dollars and they leave out an important detail: Nissan still sells the Versa in the US, just not the Note hatchback version. The current Nissan Versa starts at $17,190 according to Nissan’s own website: https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/cars/versa-sedan.html

That’s actually about 20% less expensive than the inflation-adjusted number from 2019.

Example 2: And then they claim that price increase is: 29.2% - just 3% more than inflation (but they did not want to mention total PCI). But even that number of 29.2% cannot be verified on BLS.gov nor fred.stlouisfed.org . I uploaded FRED and BLS data to chatgpt o3 and it says that new vehicle prices increased 22% from 2019 to 2025 - actually less then inflation:

2019: 146.220

2020: 149.091

2021: 166.653

2022: 176.463

2023: 178.269

2024: 177.552 fred.stlouisfed.org (slight dip from 2023)

2025: ~178.7 (May 2025)

Overall, from 2019 to mid-2025 the index increased from ~146 to ~179, amounting to about a 22% cumulative rise in new vehicle prices.

(https://www.bls.gov/cpi/data.htm - code CUUR0000SETA01).

dzhiurgis8• 1 year ago

And inflation is calculated by how much car prices increased

madcaptenor2• 1 year ago

10 years ago wasn't this "the $20k car is going extinct?"

bityard2• 1 year ago

I don't know if it's due to social media distraction, very effective advertising business models, or lack of financial literacy but I have noticed that over the last 10 years, most people have been willing to pay literally any price for the things they want.

It wasn't always like this. It used to be that price hikes were met with consumer backlash, media attention, and people simply not buying that thing which forced companies to correct their pricing.

The fact that most people will happily pay any price they can afford (on credit, when) seems to be the main thing contributing to high food, car, and housing prices, which negatively impacts the poor and those who bust their ass to be frugal.

But hey, I guess it's a great time to be a VC.

xyst• 1 year ago

In this modern age, the new vehicle markup at dealerships is completely unnecessary in the USA. Besides inflation, I would say this is a top contributor to the loss of <$25K vehicle.

The crappy experience I had with my last vehicle (~8 years ago):

1. Shop for rates on auto loans

2. Shop for particular brand/model of vehicle (online)

3. Once decided on brand/model, go to local "{{ random entity }} of {{ manufacture }}" dealership

4. Test drive the model you are interested in

5. Once decided you will continue with purchase, then you "start talking numbers"

6. Initial sales guy will always say something like "oh, this is the lowest we can go" (it was something like $5000 over MSRP for the model + options)

7. Then counter with some offer ("$500 + MSRP")

8. Sales guy does some pitch and tries to get you to budge. If you stand your ground here, he/she will "begrudgingly" go back to their manager to get approval

9. You may get approved, or not. But occasionally they will counter. Repeat 6-8 until settled on sales price (including tax, title fees). Known as the "out the door" price. One time I did have to "walk out" when sales person wouldn’t agree on price. Also they will employ as many high pressure sales tactics here as possible. Also best to keep your cards close to your chest, they will try to get you to use their in-house finance (big kickbacks for them). Have had success getting near MSRP by leading them on to thinking I would use their in-house financing.

10. They will now refer you to their finance guy to finish and finalize the paperwork. But it doesn’t stop there. That finance guy will try to load you up on as many unneeded services to pump the sales price. I’m talking extended warranty, gap insurance, paint protectors at significant dealership markup. Usually the GAP insurance isn’t too bad but have to go through process of hearing the pitch and declining each service. Then there is the junk fees such as "document fees" that range from $100-300.

11. Finally, after declining and accepting additional services. You come to the actual payment decision : in house or external financing? Usually, the sales guy would have already run your information through their financing backend to determine creditworthiness prior to financing guy so they have an idea where they can lose out on initial purchase price and recoup on kickback. Occasionally, the rates are better than what you can secure from your bank or credit union. But it’s very rare. It’s in their interest to get you to agree to an higher APR than what you really deserve. At this point, pop out the preapproval letter and compare the offers.

12. On rare occasion, they will try to pull back the deal but at this point it’s better to close and increase sales for month rather than dwell about one barely profitable transaction. Finally, the paperwork is signed.

All of this unnecessary back and forth when it can just be boiled down to a few steps at most.

1. Go to showroom (or online)

2. Browse basic models

3. Decide on options and put downpayment on car

4. (In 3-4 weeks) Deliver vehicle to home or preferred destination. Have it quickly inspected for any defects in transportation. Then deliver final payment and get your new car

etothet• 1 year ago

I recently needed to buy a car and my criteria was essentially I wanted least expensive new car on the market (I know I could have gone used but for this particular need I wanted a new car). The number of new vehicles that start under $20k is slim pickings. There are, what, maybe 3 in the US (if you don't count a couple that are discontinued)? And once you get into tax and title, you're going over $20k anyhow. Plus, with interest rates as they are, I don't know how the average person in Amercia affords a new vehicle these days.

bfrog• 1 year ago

I might be alone, but I miss the ridiculously simple all manual cars/trucks with crank windows, 5 speed and a clutch, and just the simplest damn interior.

I don't want all the damn gadgets, those things inevitably break and then cost thousands to fix.

nkotov• 1 year ago

Infiniti is on the list of highest price increases. The reality is that nobody is actually buying any of their newer models. They dropped the ball in 2010s and playing catch up in 2020s. Nobody is going to pay $100k for QX80 when you can get an GX550/Escalade/Yukon for similar money.

microhobby• 1 year ago

Because of it, poor people, like me, use motorcycles. Because it is the only affordable option.

SirMaster• 1 year ago

But cars now have way more features in them than several years before.

ManBeardPc• 1 year ago

As someone working for the German automotive industry I see part of the reason being a nearly constant crisis situation. Software is another part that seems to consume a huge amount of resources for little outcome. See Cariad from Volkswagen for an example.

Suppliers suffer from a constant flood and drought of contracts. Crisis -> We need so save money -> Supplier contracts are frozen or cancelled -> "Oh, we can't do stuff ourselves/We need help" -> Supplier had to let go experienced staff, hire cheap/unexperienced replacements/outsource -> Quality suffers and costs explode -> Repeat. Also not paying/delaying payments drives more suppliers out of business.

You also better promise the impossible because the cheapest offer wins. One time I got a PowerPoint as the technical drawings for electric charger test station. Just some black boxes, lines and names. That was the documentation. I should help the project management with documentation of the current state, but had to provide quite a bit of engineering in addition. Also had to talk to the Chinese supplier directly (nobody in the team spoke Mandarin). What a joy.

racl101• 1 year ago

I suppose in the same way that the five dollar footlong has gone extinct. Inflation.

more_corn• 1 year ago

Not in the US but there are some great electric cars available for less than that.

builtsimple2• 1 year ago

The dealer inventory model is the real killer here. The article mentions that only ~20% of US buyers pre-order cars, compared to Europe where build-to-order is common. This fundamentally changes the economics. When I worked at a dealership software company, we saw the data firsthand - dealers would rather sit on one $80k truck for 60 days than move five $25k sedans in the same timeframe. The financing alone makes it worthwhile. A buyer financing an $80k vehicle at 7% over 72 months generates ~$20k in finance reserve profits that get split between the dealer and lender. The $25k car? Maybe $3-4k if you're lucky. The Maverick situation is particularly telling. Ford designed an actually affordable truck, and dealers immediately marked it up 25% because they could. That's not a supply chain issue - that's dealers extracting maximum value from artificial scarcity. What's interesting is that direct-to-consumer models (Tesla, Rivian, etc.) haven't really attacked this market segment either. You'd think cutting out the dealer would make sub-$25k vehicles viable again, but even they're chasing higher margins upmarket. The only real solution I see is Chinese EVs eventually forcing the issue. BYD is selling the Seagull for ~$11k in China. Even with tariffs, that could land here under $25k and completely reset consumer expectations. Until then, we're stuck with dealers optimizing for finance profits over volume.

theropost• 1 year ago

Just tossing in my two cents - half the $25K cars people are asking for do exist, or did, but we’re basically banning them from the country with tariffs. It’s like we’re saying, “nah, we don’t really want cheap cars.”

Look at something like the Dolphin from China - it’s going for $8K–$9K USD over there. Ship a whole fleet of them and you’re still well under $25K. And we’re not talking junkers either - these are electric, decent build quality, ~300km range. Like... what exactly are we protecting here?

Feels like we’re pricing affordability out of the market on purpose.

The $25k car is going extinct?

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