iPad Pro M2

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/10/apple-introduces-next-generation-ipad-pro-supercharged-by-the-m2-chip/

by doerig • 4 years ago

304 722 4 years ago

doerig• 4 years ago

From the press release: "The 11-inch iPad Pro starts at $799 (US) for the Wi-Fi model and $999 (US) for the Wi-Fi + Cellular model; the 12.9-inch iPad Pro starts at $1,099 (US) for the Wi-Fi model, and $1,299 (US) for the Wi-Fi + Cellular model."

duxup6• 4 years ago

For me this is one of those announcements that I'm excited to see the new version, so that I can maybe buy the previous version ;)

That's not a knock on the new version in any way, just a reflection of how much I value this particular type of device / where I feel I need more power and etc.

flumpcakes• 4 years ago

I just purchased the iPad Air last week. The model I went for was 720 in my local currency, and after today's shop update is now 850. It looks like the Magic Keyboard also increased from 270 to 330.

wslh• 4 years ago

How long does the battery last? Comparing to the MacBook Air?

mnholt3• 4 years ago

From the tech specs: Up to 10 hours of surfing the web on Wi-Fi or watching video. 9 hours if using Cellular data.

spullara2• 4 years ago

which in comparison is about half of an air or pro.

Veliladon• 4 years ago

Still can't believe the M2 chip is hobbled with Stage Manager.

Dear Apple,

I want my iPad to become a Finder based full-fat macOS when it's on the Magic Keyboard and I want it to be Springboard when I take it off the Magic Keyboard.

Make it happen already.

smoldesu18• 4 years ago

Yeah, I don't really know who Apple is hoping to sell these to. My ex-boyfriend bought one of the earlier iPad Pros with some grand ambitions, but he mostly ended up using it for Netflix, Twitter and emails. I think that totally legitimizes the existence of the smaller/cheaper models, but who is Apple selling these to in the long-term? Even the mediocre Surface Pro has a decent software experience that explains why someone might continue spending extra on it. But I don't know who the iPad Pro is for, especially these souped-up models. 120hz is nice, but... who the hell is going to need or even appreciate a high-refresh rate on an iPad? I reckon most "pros" would be happier if they sacked the high refresh and upgraded the panel to a 60hz OLED one.

I'm just spitballing though. The iPad probably won't make sense for most of us until it's discontinued or they add macOS to it, whichever comes first.

jessriedel7• 4 years ago

The extra 2 inches of screen can be a reason to get a Pro, but I agree it's unclear why they both to put in so much horsepower.

seanmcdirmid2• 4 years ago

I bought a 2G ipad pro and it was very useful as just a writing tablet. Unlimited paper, though I had to get a paper-like screen protector since otherwise their wasn't enough friction between the screen and the pen to make me happy.

I'm disappointed there aren't more pen-based programming experiences out there, but I can't really think of any useful ones myself either.

wlesieutre7• 4 years ago

I have a 2018 model and love the 12.9" screen size for media, note taking, reading, sketching, etc.

That said if they made a cheaper version with a 12.9" screen I would have bought that instead. I don't do anything that needs a desktop class processor.

Artists do love the performance though, people use them for video editing or large image editing with lots of layers.

Edit to add - 12.9" is also helpful for using two apps in splitscreen. Might become less important with Stage Manager, we'll see how I like that.

caycep2• 4 years ago

There's a good local wedding photographer here who edits 90% of her commercial work on her iPad Pro now

diebeforei4854• 4 years ago

The miniLED display on the 12.9" is great.

I know that iPads are used in the architecture/construction industry for example. AutoCAD has some products that came out of the PlanGrid acquisition.

CharlesW4• 4 years ago

120hz is nice, but... who the hell is going to need or even appreciate a high-refresh rate on an iPad?

This is a notable differentiator that's easy to see and feel for iPad users. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otlDSjAq2hI

Yeah, I don't really know who Apple is hoping to sell these to. […] The iPad probably won't make sense for most of us until it's discontinued or they add macOS to it, whichever comes first.

Apple knows who they're selling to. Apple's iPad dominates the global tablet market (along with Samsung and Amazon), so there's evidence that it's made sense for its target market for some time now.

Spivak• 4 years ago

iPad Pro has a strong foothold in digital art. Not having to learn how to split brain with a Wacom is a game changer and there aren't many competitors in the space that aren't wayyyyy more expensive.

314• 4 years ago

I have the original (from 2014?) and it is still in use every day. I bought it for sketching but never really used it for that too much. For note taking (with a pen) it has been in use every day. I used to go through stacks of notepads and it was nice to replace them with a digital tool as it makes storage and retrieval much easier. It was an extravagant purchase at the time, but $1100 has started to look relatively after 8(?) years of use.

musictubes7• 4 years ago

iPad Pro is amazing for audio, photography, and of course art creation. I am just starting to dip my toes into the audio world and the number and quality of soft synths, sequencers, effects, mixers, etc. is actually breathtaking. The ipad is especially useful when used in conjunction with physical instruments and live performance. A regular laptop isn’t nearly as nice to use in the moment. Suzanne Ciani uses the Animoog Z app on her ipad along with her $20k+ Buchla Modular synthesizer rig during live performances. I have also been enjoying live streams from Pittsburgh Modular. He uses an ipad for sequencing and effects along with the hardware synths.

Having a more powerful ipad allows more and more sophisticated tools to be made for it. Apple brings the capability and developers take advantage.

hoistbypetard2• 4 years ago

I have a 2018 iPad pro with a pencil and keyboard, and I love it. It's good for:

* Working on game assets using the Affinity tools (Designer and Photo)

* Second monitor for my Mac when I'm not at my desk

* Chat/videoconference tool, leaving me able to use my computer during virtual meetings

* Travel machine. I can do most of my office-y stuff on it, and use it to ssh into production things. Gitpod lets me do some light coding from there in a pinch, but if I'm planning on a lot of that I usually just carry the Macbook. Because a portable rig with two monitors is damn nice for writing code.

* Reading and annotating PDFs

* Documentation viewing while writing code

* General reading

* Using a square reader to process payments

I suspect that this will likely easily be replaced by a current Air when the time comes, but it's easily useful enough for me to want it. And when you consider that the ASUS portable monitors run in the $300-400 range, and the Wacoms are around $600, I don't feel like I'm severely overpaying.

vlunkr• 4 years ago

but who is Apple selling these to in the long-term?

I've thought this about every iPad model they've made, but obviously I'm wrong every time. I'm sure there are specific professionals who will find this useful, but in my guess is that most iPads are sold for casual use. As to why you would buy the higher-end model, because if you're in the market for an iPad, you probably have disposable income, you might as well get the shiniest one you can.

williamcotton• 4 years ago

It feels so close, doesn’t it? My biggest gripe is that iOS doesn’t have proper support for external displays.

etchalon4• 4 years ago

iOS 16 fixes that.

fooblaster• 4 years ago

I don't think apple will implement something like this if it cannibalizes sales of a higher end product with more profit margin. I wouldn't expect a feature like this until there is a ipad sold for the price of a MacBook pro plus an ipad(e.g ipad super pro for 2000$).

lupire6• 4 years ago

Apple doesn't want non-artists to buy iPad Pro instead of MacBook. They want people to buy both.

traceroute66• 4 years ago

Apple doesn't want non-artists to buy iPad Pro instead of MacBook. They want people to buy both.

I see the resident Apple bashers are already warming up their cannons firing a few rounds.

But perhaps we need to take a step back here for a moment....

First you need to consider the security and general platform profile of iOS which is fundamentally different from MacOS. Running MacOS would greatly weaken the iOS security profile of Apple mobile devices, and you have to remember that the devices are not just used by consumers but they are used widely in the corporate world too. iOS loaded with corporate apps is a much more attractive security footprint for corporate IT departments. Personally speaking, I very much like the tightened security footprint of iOS. I wouldn't want to run full-blown MacOS on my phone or tablet, even if I could !

Second, prior to Apple silicon, non-mobile hardware ran on Intel. So Apple were justifiably technically constrained by that fact. However, if you observe Apple today though, you can see MacOS on Apple Silicon allows you to install iPhone/iPad apps simply by downloading them from the App store as you would on an Apple mobile device. I would argue therefore that with time, we may see further blurring of boundaries in both directions.

MuffinFlavored• 4 years ago

I'm trying to calculate in my head why I (a non-artist) want a tablet with the foldable keyboard thingie instead of a laptop...

lvl102• 4 years ago

I see this comment often. I just find it comical that people really think they know what goes on inside of Apple product meetings. Ipad Pro 12" is as expensive as a Macbook. Perhaps Apple doesn't want people to use full MacOS on an 11" screen because it's not as usable as you think it is...Apple is not out to blindly maximize its profit at all times.

Someone• 4 years ago

That could end up being a two-headed monster, with some apps working fine in ‘iPad mode’ and looking awfully out of place in ‘Finder mode’ and other ones looking good in ‘Finder mode’ and bad in ‘iPad mode’.

Unless (almost) all their apps (including third-party ones) would seamlessly switch from a mouse-driven MacOS UI to a pen/finger drive iPad UI, I think most users would be disappointed with that.

evilduck• 4 years ago

Hell, just give access to the Hypervisor framework now that M1/M2 chips natively support virtualization. I would gladly use a macOS or Linux VM on an iPad if it didn't require constant workarounds. UTM is ready it just needs the App Store barrier removed.

As a user experience it's no less jarring than GeForce Now, XBox remote play, Steam Link, Plex, VNC apps, iSH, Blink, etc.

criddell2• 4 years ago

Dear Apple,

Please don't listen to Veliladon. Keep the iPad as it's own thing. In fact, make it more iPad-y and less Mac-y.

If I want a Mac, I'll buy a Mac.

NegativeLatency• 4 years ago

Bought an iPad earlier this year hoping to take some of the responsibilities off of my 2015 MPB, and it's really just a media consumption device.

Hard to admin my home server, program, etc on an iPad, even though it has a much faster processor and way better battery life.

I realize this is a bit of a niche usecase but apple shipping a Terminal.app for iOS/iPadOS would be a game changer.

orangecat2• 4 years ago

I want my iPad to become a Finder based full-fat macOS when it's on the Magic Keyboard

And Apple doesn't want you running unapproved software so that's never going to happen unless macOS gets a lockdown mode (only app store apps, no terminal or Unix access, etc).

xfalcox3• 4 years ago

I would love a way to enable Safari DevTools on this device so I could use it to debug iOS specific quirks instead of needing an Apple laptop.

candiddevmike3• 4 years ago

Get a Mac Mini, stick it in a closet and VNC into it, that's what I do.

duxup6• 4 years ago

Yeah I would think a Mini would be a better use case than a whole laptop.

xfalcox3• 4 years ago

Then you emulate iOS on it to debug iOS Safari? Is it fast enough?

agrippanux2• 4 years ago

If you are needing it for web dev, the Inspect browser on iOS works great for that purpose. It is annoying you have to pay $10 for something that should be built in.

xfalcox3• 4 years ago

Is that a paid extension?

liminalsunset• 4 years ago

There is also one called literally "Web Inspector" from "And a Dinosaur" or something which I believe is free and a Safari extension which pops up devtools on my iPhone

crims0n2• 4 years ago

Interesting, if only incremental update. The hardware far outpacing the software continues.

mnholt3• 4 years ago

No horizontal camera is a dealbreaker for me at this point. I know it’s minor, but that would truly let me leave the laptop/desktop at home.

nomel6• 4 years ago

With the number of cameras on an iPhone, I'm surprised they don't just add a second.

gedy• 4 years ago

Looks really nice, but as a developer I'm unwilling to give that up on my local system! Maybe one day if cloud only becomes a lot better, but even then feels like a downgrade.

candiddevmike3• 4 years ago

Anyone use an iPad as their daily driver?

mnholt3• 4 years ago

I did with the 2018 11” + Magic Keyboard. I felt very capable of doing most day-to-day tasking with the keyboard and mouse. Video calls sucked because the camera is off to the side when in the Magic Keyboard. Stage Manager might help even more, I found the previous “windowing” features to be lacking.

CGamesPlay• 4 years ago

I have been, for backend development only. I live most of my life in Blink shell connected to a Linux machine. Works great as a very expensive dumb terminal. https://blink.sh/

Cons:

- Multitasking is weak. You can put two windows next to one another as long as you want them to be in a vertical split. The "pull out" side window feature doesn't work on the home screen for no discernible reason, so if you have Things in the side app then open it from the home screen, it's no longer opened in the side app and you have to manually move it back. (append: I haven't tried Stage Manager yet; maybe it will address some of this)

- Hardware keyboard support is pretty weak. The settings app and shortcuts app are two examples of apps with bad keyboard support. The "full keyboard access" is a very strange modality: it turns tab into a chording key. There's no equivalent to "focus all elements" as there is on desktop, so for example if I press tab from this text box, the "reply button" is not selected; the search at the bottom of the page is.

- Web access is a must. Individual apps might provide offline support, but many have sub-par sync systems, where you'll discovered that your offline files have helpfully been completely deleted and require resyncing, but since you're already on the plane by that point you're out of luck.

All in all: works great as an expensive dumb terminal.

Maursault• 4 years ago

I use a 5th gen iPad mini for web, email, telephony, ebooks, photos & video capture, but I use older Intel Macs (MBP 2010 & mini 2012) for local media server, storage, photo and video editing, torrent, file manipulation and transcoding, word processing & desktop publishing, pdf generation & editing, VM & emulation, and all the things that iDevices won't easily or gracefully allow or anything I happen to prefer on macOS. Granted, with effort, one can do nearly everything on iDevice, but it isn't always convenient. But upwards of 90% of the things I use Apple technology for is web browsing, email, and watching a movie or tv show, and this incidentally makes my Macs more secure and less needy of administration. I would like to have a new Mac, but I really can't justify it because I no longer use them for web and email, all the old Mac software can still do what I need it to do, although heavy processing takes longer, because the Macs are really in the background, it doesn't slow me down.

manv1• 4 years ago

Been using my iPad pro 2017 12.9 since 2015. It's basically my email/web/books/video/social device, but also can do work stuff in a pinch. It's not ideal for work, but it's more practical than my 12 mini if I need to do emergency stuff.

I also use it for presentations, sketch out designs and architecture, etc, but it's harder to clean up documents on the iPad because the editing on it is awkward compared do a laptop. For certain things diction works, but just copying and pasting a couple of rows in excel (or any spreadsheet like thing) is just really bad.

That said, the tool you have with you is the best tool, and it's really portable. It's 7 years old at this point and still going strong. It won't use a bunch of the new features in 16, but since I don't use those anyway I don't care.

If you want to test out an iPad, pick up a 1st or 2nd gen iPad Pro. I have three of them around the house (including mine) and the other two get used all the time for video/games/browsing.

bluedino• 4 years ago

My brother does, his just broke and has been waiting for the new release. He's a teacher and just uses it for email, grading papers, etc.

hayst4ck3• 4 years ago

Some things work great on the iPad, and for those things the iPad is absolutely fantastic and I will often prefer to use it.

If you want to infinitely scroll, the iPad is unparalleled. It is great for reading and watching. I like it as a game device. It is great for reading news and I enjoy apple's news widgets. Kindle works well. If you want to consume, the iPad is an amazing tool for consumption.

Additionally in the last year, apple made it really easy to use your iPad as a second screen, either as an iPad or as a literal second screen for your macbook. I found myself doing that more and more.

I bought the apple pencil thinking it can't possibly be worth the money, but it is an enjoyable device to use. Writing text on an iPad is more gimmick than feature (for me), but I find it a pleasurable way to scroll or navigate apps.

That being said, once you want to do a task with a keyboard, there is no replacing a laptop. The iPad is also locked down (no terminal, only safari) such that a laptop is still necessary. The iPad is still very much a luxury device and could not stand on its own. Phones and laptops both have features that the iPad does not have that make them necessary. The iPad offers nothing that makes it necessary unless you consider an ancillary screen for your laptop necessary.

jerkstate• 4 years ago

I did for ~5 years but switched to the m2 air, complex tasks and multi tasking are much much easier, as well as dev work which is possible in a very limited way on iPad. I always used it with the keyboard attached and the laptop has a better hinge for screen angle too

mise_en_place• 4 years ago

Only as an e-reader, mainly because I lost my Kindle between moves. Other than that I don't use it for much.

akmarinov• 4 years ago

First time for Wi-Fi 6E on Apple hardware. Expecting that in the new MBPs as well

lapcat• 4 years ago

I love how "Desktop-class apps" means extremely basic features available decades ago on desktop: "consistent undo and redo, a redesigned inline find-and-replace experience, a new document menu, customizable toolbars, and the ability to change file extensions, view folder size".

duxup6• 4 years ago

Not sure the desktop has moved beyond that though.

So seems about right.

ape4• 4 years ago

Maybe the "pencil hover experience" will finally allow desktop-style "tool tips". So you can know what a button does before tapping.

gnicholas7• 4 years ago

True, but only for users of the v2 Apple Pencil with the new iPad Pro. For folks with v1, or with an iPad/Pro that doesn't support hover (or who just use our fingers), discoverability will continue to be a challenge...

stinos2• 4 years ago

Well, they can't push it too far because then it would become something too close to an actual laptop/tablet hybrid.

duxup6• 4 years ago

I'd argue that is exactly what they are doing. Their promotional material and many users are already using iPads as desktops... and they seem to be catering to them.

willis936• 4 years ago

It has always been artificial market segmentation. Their message is clear: don't buy apple if you want a laptop with a touchscreen. Apple will only sell you oversized phones and regular laptops.

AlexandrB• 4 years ago

And don't buy a Windows laptop if you want a laptop without a touchscreen because the UI will be designed for touch even if you only use a mouse. Although macOS is unfortunately trending in this direction also.

mrweasel2• 4 years ago

don't buy apple if you want a laptop with a touchscreen

Keep buying Apple laptops, got it. I know that a large number of people keep asking for laptop with touchscreen, but this is one design decision where I whole heartedly with Apple. Touchscreen on laptops make no sense. The use case for a touchscreen is significantly different from a laptop that it makes sense to have two classes of devices.

Then again, I don't really get the large number of iPads sold either. It seems like an extremely niche devices which would only find a use case in certain types of industry.

noveltyaccount• 4 years ago

I'm always surprised at the pushback from people when the topic of touchscreen laptops comes up. I love mine, even if I don't use it a ton. It's a collection of delightful little things: a modal dialog box that I just reach up and tap Okay. Resting four fingers on the back of the display and using a thumb to scroll a web page. Any situation (like on an airplane) where space is limited, reaching for the screen can be better than using a touchpad. I don't use it instead of mouse/touchpad, but I use it as an additional input, and again, it's delightful.

Apple could let customers launch iPad apps on their Macs and use a touchscreen. But they don't, because they'd rather sell you two devices. It's silly, artificial market segmentation.

michaelt• 4 years ago

You could actually get a full desktop experience from a tablet back in 2003, with products like the NEC Versa Litepad [1] running Windows XP. With a fully-fledged x86 processor, you could run anything a desktop could run.

It was pretty neat, but I can tell you from experience that coding using handwriting recognition isn't a great experience :)

[1] https://www.cnet.com/reviews/nec-versa-litepad-tablet-pc-vlp...

dkonofalski• 4 years ago

All of the Tablet PC's running XP Tablet Edition were terrible. I will die on that hill. I tried probably about 10 different versions and the company I worked for was a reseller for them so I got to play with a lot of them. It was just Windows XP with pen input slapped on and it *sucked*.

dzhiurgis2• 4 years ago

consistent undo and redo

Safari history has been broken for something like 4-5 years. About 1% of time back button will take you one step too far (i.e. will show your home page instead of google serp)

lupire6• 4 years ago

Can you drag the cursor with your finger to a specific character in-text yet, without selecting text? 2018 iPad can't.

kkruglov• 4 years ago

Long tap space bar and it should become something like a trackpad for the cursor.

tshaddox5• 4 years ago

My 2017 iPad Pro can do that. I can tap and drag on the cursor to move it. I can also long-tap and drag on the spacebar to move the cursor like a touchpad. I can also drag with 2 fingers anywhere on the keyboard to move the cursor like a touchpad. The first 2 options also work on my iPhone.

tshaddox5• 4 years ago

It seems reasonable for "desktop-class" to refer to the basic features that have typically distinguished desktop personal computers from alternatives like smartphones and tablets. What else would you expect "desktop-class" to mean?

rrrrrrrrrrrryan• 4 years ago

I think OP is saying it's strange that many "desktop" applications today lack these basic desktop features.

ohgodplsno• 4 years ago

Powerful features that are more than a glorified ^Z. Reminding actions to finger shortcuts, quick access through a command palette, etc.

It'd be like me calling McDonald's restaurant-class because they could suddenly give you a plate. Sure, it's a component, but the porcelain isn't why I go to a restaurant, it's to have a qualified cook doing things with his expertise.

fsflover• 4 years ago

What else would you expect "desktop-class" to mean?

For example, PineTab runs full desktop GNU/Linux.

woojoo666• 4 years ago

well the Surface Pro runs full Windows

NoPicklez2• 4 years ago

I really struggle to find a use case for the iPad over my Macbook Pro from 2014.

- It sits on my lap with the screen sitting upright without the need for a case to sit it upright - I prefer using a keyboard over a touch screen for desktop like applications and browsing - The trackpad being on my lap or directly in front of me is more ergonomically friendly than having to reach forward to touch the screen

If I was to need to buy another laptop, it would be another Macbook over an iPad.

drewg123• 4 years ago

As far as I know, this is the first Apple hardware to support Wifi 6E, which is something I've been waiting on for what feels like forever.

I'm hoping the rumored new laptops will also support 6E.

For those that don't know, Wifi-6E uses the 6Ghz band, and I anticipate it will be very helpful in crowded residential environments where lots of Wifi APs are all landing on the same few 2.4 and 5Ghz channels.

jessriedel7• 4 years ago

I can't understand the emphasis on more bandwidth. The pain with wifi is overwhelmingly dominated by the slowness establishing a connection (why does it take more than a second?!), with connection reliability and latency (for video calls) also being important.

"Wifi 7: 10 Terrabyte/sec transfer speeds" *yawn*

"Wifi 7: Connects in 500 ms, latency 20 ms, tri-band fallover for 5-nines reliability" *Opens checkbook*

bombcar2• 4 years ago

All I want is wireless devices that can be connected to my 2.4GHz and 5Gz network at the same time with the same IP.

crazygringo5• 4 years ago

I've never once noticed slowness in connecting as bothering me at all. Are you connecting to new Wi-Fi networks hundreds of times a day or something? My iPad just... stays connected to the networks it knows.

And I believe that higher bandwidth is the solution to better reliability and latency when you've got lots of devices sharing the same router, or other interference. Isn't that how digital radio works?

jayd162• 4 years ago

Wifi is still time sliced, right? More bandwidth means more idle time means lower latency, no?

nfriedly2• 4 years ago

Agreed! The thing about 6ghz is that it doesn't travel through walls as well, and tends to have shorter range in general.

On the surface, this seems like a negative, but if you're in a crowded apartment building, it can actually be a major benefit. Even if a bunch of your neighbors end up using it on the same channel as you, you won't experience as much interference because the walls will attenuate their signals.

Of course, a single AP might not reliably cover your entire home in 6ghz, but you can always fall back to 2.4 and 5ghz and/or get more APs.

Additionally, WiFi 6 (and 6e) is better in general at detecting neighboring networks across all frequency bands and reducing interference automatically.

sumtechguy2• 4 years ago

One of my neighbors put in 8 access points for about 1000sqft. Swamped everyone else out. That is what unfortunately will happen. :(

mensetmanusman6• 4 years ago

It will be useful until everyone is on 6 GHz…

lma21• 4 years ago

The iPad Pro is one of the expensive products that I never regret paying 800$ for. Incredible speed, smooth UX, long lasting battery, really doesn't even come close to the previous (Intel-powered) iPads.

carlob• 4 years ago

Intel based iPads?

skyyler• 4 years ago

With context I think it's pretty clear that they meant tablet.

My thinkpad tablets are thick, hot, and the battery lasts around 3 hours of light use.

spullara2• 4 years ago

There have never been Intel based iPads.

jdlyga• 4 years ago

"Hover" with the Apple Pencil is something that my Tablet PC in 2003 could do. Still, I'm very glad that tablets in 2022 finally have this feature.

jonas-w• 4 years ago

Wait you couldn't hover over the ipad and it didn't show you a pointer? The galaxy tablets had this since a few generations, why didn't apple do this earlier?

twobitshifter2• 4 years ago

it seems to be an m2 feature only

atty• 4 years ago

They keep on pushing on the power of the iPads. Out of curiosity, does anyone really use their iPads for something they’d consider really compute intensive? I find that the best use of a tablet is reading and watching videos. Any time I want to do anything complex or computationally intensive I find a laptop to be much more efficient, both in terms of the OS flexibility and better input devices.

bparsons• 4 years ago

For 99.99% of users, they are 1500 dollar Facebook machines.

m3kw9• 4 years ago

You are projecting a bit there

NoraCodes• 4 years ago

I doubt that. Many very serious artists use Procreate on an iPad as their primary medium, and I honestly can't think of a better tool without jumping about a thousand dollars in price, loath as I am to say it.

davidgay• 4 years ago

Adobe Lightroom works quite nicely, I use it to edit photos I take on vacation while on vacation.

lbotos5• 4 years ago

I don't particularly, but I like to watch videos at 3 and 4x and bigger procs have helped. Older iPads stumbled past 2x.

But, It does make me salty that an M2 iPad can't run Xcode. I wish they would figure that out as it would greatly streamline my setup.

yamtaddle9• 4 years ago

Give me XCode and Preview (I use the pdf page-re-arranging/deleting/etc a lot) and finally put a fucking calculator on iPad OS and I can stop using macbooks at all. I mean for personal devices, at least, I'd still use one for work since they give me one anyway.

null_object2• 4 years ago

I find that the best use of a tablet is reading and watching videos.

I think HN forgets the 'pros' using the iPad Pros are video, photography, visual-arts and music professionals.

I'm as disappointed as the next dev on HN that iPadOS still doesn't allow me to run a full version of Xcode. But then I remember there are perfectly good laptops for that, and I'm not the target audience for these devices

AuryGlenz2• 4 years ago

I mean, I don’t understand how I could really use an iPad in my workflow as a photographer. Everything is slower without a keyboard, and for raw editing I use a whole bunch of knobs.

I could see maybe using it at the right type of session to quickly review images on a larger screen, but the last time I looked into it there wasn’t a super great way of doing that. Maybe I could cull photos on my iPad but unless I transfer for the photos to it and then back off I’d need to work over my network and that’d probably be slow…

Everything relating to moving files, SD cards, etc. is just a hassle in Apple tablet/phone world. Ironically, a PC just works.

jwr3• 4 years ago

Heck yeah. "Reading" sounds boring and easy, except when you have to quickly skim through 600-page PDFs with illustrations, and switch between those. This is a common use case for anybody designing electronics. I will take every CPU cycle I can get.

The existing iPads were already the best devices for this kind of thing, but faster is always better.

I still find it sad that:

a) Apple restricts iPad OS so much, that it's difficult to make good use of that fantastic hardware. It feels weird that people ask questions like "what can I actually use that power for?"

b) Companies do not ship better iPad apps. At this point, Fusion 360 would work better on this M2 iPad than on most PC machines, but we only get a half-baked "viewer" thing which doesn't really do anything useful.

darthrupert• 4 years ago

Apple restricts iPad OS so much, that it's difficult to make good use of that fantastic hardware. It feels weird that people ask questions like "what can I actually use that power for?"

Doesn't faster CPU tend to imply potentially better battery life?

educaysean• 4 years ago

This made me wonder: Why do PDFs feel so much slower and bulkier compared to something like viewing HTML over a browser? When it comes to displaying static images and text, shouldn't PDFs outperform HTML pages by miles?

yamtaddle9• 4 years ago

a) Apple restricts iPad OS so much, that it's difficult to make good use of that fantastic hardware. It feels weird that people ask questions like "what can I actually use that power for?"

Really, I can't think of a ton of uses for desktop/laptop hardware this powerful. And I don't do any of them, gaming aside (I have a mediocre Windows PC for that, and even that is often using only a fraction of its power for gaming).

The one and only time I've given my m1 Air a real workout is playing with one of those AI art generators, but it's not like that was something I needed to do, or I'd have felt like I was really missing out if I hadn't done it. I did it because I could and it was low-effort.

Faster compiling is nice I guess. That's... it.

blorgensnarf• 4 years ago

Civ VI is pretty CPU intensive.

pradn• 4 years ago

Web browsing is a task you can throw great single-core performance at.

monitron• 4 years ago

Right now I'm drawing comics using CLIP Studio Paint, which really is a desktop app that runs seamlessly on the iPad (literally it appears to be the same code as what I have on my Mac!)

Each page is ~5000x7000px with dozens of layers including many effects and even 3D models. Even my 2018 iPad Pro breezes through this workflow. With the pencil, it feels like exactly the right device for what I'm doing.

boppo18• 4 years ago

Digital sculpting.

singhrac• 4 years ago

I would play games on my iPad... but there aren't very many that work, because Apple hasn't spent the time (or money) making Metal support widespread. Really, they should just fund / build their own MoltenVK implementation, but I would guess that they don't want to support two paths. It's surprising how MoltenVK only has one full time dev, I could easily see Apple throwing some money at that with huge returns.

rodgerd2• 4 years ago

Out of curiosity, does anyone really use their iPads for something they’d consider really compute intensive?

Divinity: Original Sin 2 8)

dirtyid• 4 years ago

My compute intensive tablet activities involves a cheap chromebook duet remote desktopping into an actual desktop already efficiently setup for my workflows. I'd rather wait for reliable remote work solutions / infra than try to cope with subpar workflows.

gnicholas7• 4 years ago

Interestingly the Apple Pencil "hover" feature doesn't require a new generation of Pencil — this works on the 2nd Gen.

Overall, this looks like it is clearly aimed at creators. I have the 2018 Pro with Magic Keyboard and have zero interest in upgrading to this model. Honestly I almost wish I could trade my Pro for a Mini, since it's more pocket-able, and I mainly use my Pro for demoing my startup's technology.

duxup6• 4 years ago

It seems like Apple has been embracing the folks who live and die on their iPad full time or mostly full time.

I don't think I could do that now but there seems to be a sizable crowd who works that way and maybe is the future.

boppo18• 4 years ago

Interestingly the Apple Pencil "hover" feature doesn't require a new generation of Pencil

Yeah, it requires a new ipad.

I'm a bit salty, not gonna lie. This has been basic on wacoms forever.

galoisscobi• 4 years ago

I wonder why developer tools are not a priority for Apple for “pro” iPads. At this point, it uses the M2 chip so the limitations on running IDEs, compilers and other tools just seem arbitrarily imposed.

2OEH8eoCRo0• 4 years ago

What developer tools? The ability to create and install your own applications like an actual computer? That would circumvent their walled garden.

I wish they'd just ship macOS as an "app" on their iPads

bwilliams• 4 years ago

I'd even be happy with a performant VM app that I could run linux on at this point. It would be so nice to be able to swipe up and go from linux VM -> imessage, etc.

hankchinaski• 4 years ago

I would assume this would cannibalise mac sales, very doubtful we will ever see compilers on ipad os

lbotos5• 4 years ago

If I get a 1TB iPad Pro (16GB of ram) with pencil and keyboard it's $2200.

Without the pencil it's $2148.

If I get a 1TB 13 Inch M2 Macbook (16GB ram) it's 1899.

I have been avoiding getting an iPad because it can't run xCode, and it's cheaper for me to get the laptop.

Sure, some people are buying both, but I'm sure there are many like me that aren't because of this exact trade off.

zefhous• 4 years ago

Steve Jobs and Tim Cook have both stated that they don't hesitate to cannibalize their own products, and Apple has proved that many times over.

Especially at the scale in which iPad having developer tools could ostensibly cannibalize Mac sales — there's no way this would be a factor in the existence of those tools.

makeitdouble2• 4 years ago

We saw a huge push to bring the mac near iOS territory (the Mac Store, gatekeeper, catalyst, the new design language etc.) . If Apple could, I bet they'd exchange every new mac for an iPad and effectively gain the tightest control they could ever get of a huge part of the ecosystem.

etchalon4• 4 years ago

There are developers tools for iPadOS, they're just not anything you can do professional work with.

The main problem, I think, is most development tools require a relatively low-level of operating system access that Apple has not figured out a way to do given what they want iOS/iPadOS to "be".

My suspicion is they'll eventually find a way to do containers in a manner that's relatively "safe", and they'll lean on Cloud-based build tools that move the hard work off device.

musictubes7• 4 years ago

I keep hearing about the desire for developer tools on an ipad and I just don’t get it. The entirety of iPadOS would need to be overhauled in order for it to be conducive for developer work. What is the appeal of doing dev work on a touch based UI with limited access to the file system on a cramped screen? The Mac is perfectly set up for that work.

philliphaydon• 4 years ago

What about something like Jetbrains Fleet where its all done on a remote computer but the IDE is local?

sixstringtheory• 4 years ago

I don’t want to use the touch interface while developing. I want to be able to do development on the same device that I can use the touch interface for other things as well, like using the Pencil to markup screenshots or design docs. It seems ridiculous that I still have to carry around a bigger, heavier laptop just for that one final use case.

I also have been using a 13” mac for years, so “cramped screen” doesn’t really apply to me on a 12.9” iPad pro’s XDR. It is more than capable, and I would hopefully be able to plug it into my external monitor at home.

Siira• 4 years ago

An iPad is more portable than a Mac.

lynndotpy• 4 years ago

I’ve done a significant amount of coding on a terminal on an Android phone.

The entirety of iPadOS would need to be overhauled in order for it to be conducive for developer work

I disagree. I used an iPad for sysadmin, datascience, some math, and some web dev. Most of the pain comes from arbitrary restrictions Apple places on iPads. (I’d imagine it’ll get more painful as my eyes worsen.)

The appeal is simple: Being able to develop with whatever device you have on you. A laptop beats a tablet, a tablet beats a phone, and a phone beats pencil and paper.

parkingrift• 4 years ago

I want it to just run macOS. The 12.9" M2 iPad Pro is absolutely perfect for me in every way except the gimped OS. The screen is great, plenty of storage, amazing battery life, it's light and portable, WiFi 6E, and a cellular modem. Everyone has their own unique needs but for me this would be the absolute ultimate work device... if it ran macOS.

As it stands I have absolutely no interest. It's generous to describe "Stage Manager" as a gimmick.

boppo18• 4 years ago

I can afford an ipad pro or a macbook pro, not both. I primarily illustrate, but it would be damn nice to be able to compile apps for my ipad.

DCKing• 4 years ago

They wouldn't even need to overhaul iPadOS! All they'd need to do is allow Parallels, VMWare or other folks to make virtualization software for the iPad, and people could just run Linux on it (or - gasp! - macOS). The M1 and M2 Macbooks can run virtual machines without a problem, but iPads are not (sigh) allowed to. Despite Apple explicitly and inexplicably selling 16GB models of the iPad Pro.

kstrauser4• 4 years ago

I have a Smart Keyboard Folio case, which is super slim and light. My 12.9" 2018 iPad Pro is smaller and light but still has a good keyboard feel. (Note: I have a mechanical keyboard on my home Mac, but can still type like a demon on the thin iPad keyboard. It's surprisingly ergonomic.)

I know there's basically no chance I'll be able to run Emacs or VS Code on this portable little device any time soon, but if I could, it'd be my main device by a long way. There's no hardware limitation preventing it, just artificial restrictions on a "pro" device.

MichaelZuo2• 4 years ago

Interestingly, the 11 inch iPad Pro still retains the LED display of the 2018 iPad Pro, unlike the FALD display of the 12.9 inch.

Seems like display technology has matured and reached an equilibrium pricing state if even Apple can't justify the cost of investing in producing the fancier displays in a second size.

zuhsetaqi• 4 years ago

Maybe it's also because of the cooling capacity of the 12.9" vs the 11" iPad

MichaelZuo2• 4 years ago

From what I understand it's the exact same cooling design except the larger surface area and thermal mass of the 12.9, which is almost entirely negated by the larger display generating more heat.

petarb• 4 years ago

The stage mode looks like an interesting attempt for desktop like productivity with an external monitor.

uses• 4 years ago

Pretty surprised they left the front camera on the side of the device. I can't figure out why they would think that makes sense after using it even once. It's so awkward trying to do a meeting and I have this weird camera angle coming from the corner of my face. The alternative is portrait orientation, which puts the camera really far from the center of the screen - feels like it's coming from above or below my face - and puts my video feed opposite to the orientation of my audience's screens, while also not being able to lean on the folded case.

theNJR• 4 years ago

This was the first thing I looked for. iPad is unusable for video calls.

agrippanux2• 4 years ago

Not to mention video calls (Google Meet, Zoom, Teams) kill the battery on an iPad. Google Meet in particular seems to be about 1% of battery a minute.

crazygringo5• 4 years ago

To say it's "unusable" is ridiculous.

It works perfectly fine. Only main difference is that, in landscape mode, instead of people seeing you look slightly down instead of into the camera (like laptops), people see you look slightly left instead of into the camera.

99% of people seeing your image in the call won't notice or care. Especially when things like your lighting setup make most of the difference that people do notice, which has nothing to do with the camera you're using.

jjtheblunt• 4 years ago

Are you saying unusable because attachment to keyboard skews image centering/symmetry?

I use my iPad for video calls (Zoom) all the freaking time and it's fine, but perhaps that's because i have it in the tall orientation so the camera aligns.

yamtaddle9• 4 years ago

Everyone's creepily staring into nothing anyway. Except those of us who try to look at the camera instead of the screen most of the time. Which means we're not actually looking at anyone's face, even though it looks like we are, which is another problem.

Being a bit off-center is the least of the problems with video calls.

lukasb2• 4 years ago

This would be solved if Continuity Camera let your iPad use your iPhone camera. Doesn't seem like it does, though.

gbil• 4 years ago

I was in a meeting the other and one of the participants looked off-center and he said "I joined with my tablet", ah yes was the remark from others

Now, I had joined also from my tablet but samsung put the camera in the center when in landscape mode and got no such remarks and I was just smiling

tlyleung• 4 years ago

The camera on the new non-Pro iPad has moved from the side to the top though. Not sure why the inconsistency between models.

npunt• 4 years ago

They're reusing the old enclosure so they save on tooling & parts.

mojzu• 4 years ago

Yeah this would be an improvement I think, considering how little I've seen iPads used in portrait mode it's a little surprising they haven't done it already. I'm guessing it's to support the pencil charging, since the new iPad does have cameras in the expected landscape location but only supports pencil 1

lupire6• 4 years ago

You are too close to the camera. (Probably because iOS doesn't have good crop and zoom)

dubya2• 4 years ago

The orientation is just a software problem. No reason Zoom et al can't have an option to crop to the right aspect ratio.

Gwarzo• 4 years ago

I would almost want to create a new thread for this, but what is the use case of a tablet? Is this for fulltime physical meeting goers to stylishly take notes?

Is there some benefit to using this over a laptop?

piva00• 4 years ago

I was on the fence when the iPad Pro M1 was released, it seemed to finally tick off as a laptop replacement for some of my hobbies (photography and music) but unfortunately it is not a desktop OS, not supporting desktop workflows and apps that I'm used to.

If it was a screen-only version of my MBA M1 I could definitely ditch the MBA and use an iPad exclusively, even if it required attaching a keyboard sometimes. The lacking software still makes it much more of a luxury to me than something to actually replace my use cases for a portable computer... I could afford one but see absolutely no usage given that my MBA is already extremely portable and works like I expect.

random42_• 4 years ago

I know it's very niche and doesn't apply to everybody but I know of a bunch of comic book/comic strip artists that are doing more and more work on the iPad pro and less on their Wacom devices.

gherkinnn• 4 years ago

For me it’s the form factor.

It’s the perfect thing to take travelling. And on the work side, the pen is astonishingly good as is the app ecosystem.

It also functions as a second screen for a macbook.

Is it necessary? No. Have I spent money in worse? Absolutely.

randcraw• 4 years ago

The iPad boots up in just 1 second. I can do 90% of what I do on a computer on it, at a much more adjustable angle, and it's a lot more portable.

A tablet is integrated into my daily routine to a degree a laptop will never be.

squeaky-clean2• 4 years ago

I bought my iPad (non-pro) mainly to play online chess, to read comic books, and for D&D pdfs at the table. It's also a nice web-browsing and video watching machine. The iPad Pro's are a bit excessive for that sort of "consumer" usage though.

The only great use-case I've seen for the pro is 2d digital art. I have a few artist friends who love the pro+pencil.

Music production on one really interests me, but none of my favorite plugins (effects and instruments) that work MacOS/Windows exist for the ipad. They also don't offer enough storage at the high end Komplete 14 Ultimate is 680GB. Each of the Spitfire sample libraries is near 200GB

There are some nice sequencing apps, but again don't need the pro for that, I just send the MIDI or OSC data to a "real" computer running a "real" DAW.

112233• 4 years ago

You mention Komplete — is there a Kontakt player or an alternative for ipad? Or do you have a way of converting kontakt instrument into something else?

I think you can get a lot out of ipad as a plugin host, by using IDAM or something like Sonobus. A few FabFilter AUv3s and you've basically saved the cost of an iPad. Plus, the touchscreen for control.

deepspace• 4 years ago

I use my tablet about as much as my desktop and laptop. My use cases are:

(1) Personal entertainment device. When relaxing on a chair or in bed, a laptop is too unwieldy. The TV gets fought over. Pretty much all my movie / YouTube watching is done on the iPad with headphones.

(2) eBook reader. Since my iPad is always withing reach, it makes sense to store all my books on it.

(3) Stylish note-taker. Not a significant part of my use, but I occasionally have stand-up meetings, and meetings in awkward locations, where a tablet makes more sense than a laptop.

(4) Signing stuff. It is much easier to store a document to be signed in OneDrive, open it on the iPad and sign it with the stylus than it is to print-sign-scan.

theshrike793• 4 years ago

I can whip out my iPad when I'm on the train to work and watch streamed or locally downloaded stuff, a laptop is way too cumbersome for that even on a semi-crowded train.

With a keyboard cover I can actually use it for messaging, emails, IM and maybe light writing. Using a stylus, I can either take freeform notes or draw stuff faster than I can with a mouse or touchpad.

And in the pre-M1 days an iPad smoked pretty much every laptop in battery performance.

boppo18• 4 years ago

Illustrators/sculptors. It's not as good as wacom+workstation, but I like not being bound to one place.

nickthegreek2• 4 years ago

I know alot of tattoo artists, and they all use ipads for their designs.

user3939382• 4 years ago

I like how it says

Wi‑Fi 6E and 5G

So 10Gb and then as an example directly under it shows a news article with a couple small images in it lol. Personally what I'm really waiting for is 40 Gb to load my news articles.

kaycebasques• 4 years ago

One current day iPad killer app IMO is Procreate. It's basically a more intuitive version of Adobe Illustrator completely optimized for iPad + iPen. I bought my then girlfriend (now wife :D) an iPad for her bday in 2020 accepting the risk that we're spending a lot of money on an activity she might not stick with (digital illustration). Happy to report that I was totally wrong and we have def gotten our money's worth through the countless hours she has logged creating art. If she didn't have such a stellar app like Procreate she probably would have tried out other illustration methods. Not a guerilla marketing plug, I have no vested interest in Apple or Procreate. Just sharing an app outside my space that seems to not get much attention here on HN. You can check out my wife's art at https://instagram.com/gabjoart

dagmx8• 4 years ago

ProCreate and illustrator aren’t comparable. The former is raster while the latter is a vector app.

I think you meant to or should compare it to Photoshop

carbocation• 4 years ago

From context "Easter" was probably autouncorrected from "raster".

wlesieutre7• 4 years ago

And only the digital painting parts of Photoshop, not photo editing. Which isn't to say that it's not a great app! It's just not a full on replacement for Illustrator of Photoshop.

If you want an alternative to Illustrator or Photoshop, Affinity Designer or Affinity Photo are more in that vein.

crazygringo5• 4 years ago

Not even Photoshop -- Photoshop is mainly about editing, well, photos, while ProCreate is about natural-looking brush painting. Photoshop certainly has brushes, but it's not even attempting any kind of naturalism. People don't generally "paint" in Photoshop. [Edit: from comments below, I stand corrected. Guess it's just the people I know.]

I'm not sure what you call that category of app -- painting apps? Natural-media painting apps? (Although you can choose to make them quite unnatural-looking too if you want.) Fractal Design Painter (later Corel Painter) invented the category I believe, way back in 1991.

aikinai• 4 years ago

Thanks for your comment. I was just about to waste time researching Procreate under the false impression it was vector.

By the way, if anyone is interested in a vector drawing app, I highly recommend Concepts.

FrozenSynapse• 4 years ago

The direct competitor is Fresco I think, Adobe's drawing app for iPads

Swizec5• 4 years ago

I bought an iPad in 2020 fully thinking it’s gonna collect dust like all my other tablets over the years.

Nowadays I use it more than my laptop. With the magic keyboard and pen, it really has become the perfect portable computing device. Great for writing, great for sketching diagrams, even good for light coding (like for code samples). And it is fantastic for creating talk slides and even presenting full day workshops. Love it

Was waiting for today’s announcement to upgrade. Running into memory issues lately :D

dzhiurgis2• 4 years ago

Is this 11 or 13" one? I found smaller keyboard is too painful to use. Maybe you can get used to as a daily, but will be upgrading to larger one.

lukasb2• 4 years ago

What size iPad do you have? Thinking about getting the pen but I have the smaller Pro, not sure how good an experience it will be.

lupire6• 4 years ago

It seems like iPad's main feature is that Apple refuses to put a touchscreen or 180degree hinge on a laptop. Laptop has a bigger screen for drawing and coding.

spaceman_2020• 4 years ago

Bought my wife an iPad in 2020 as well with the same fear that it will largely go unused.

She teaches at a university and would normally write copious notes on dozens of notebooks.

She got a copy of Goodnotes for iPad and started using it for her notes. 2 years later, she hasn’t touched any of her physical notes. All her study material is on iPad.

Very happy with the purchase.

yardie• 4 years ago

I bought my wife an iPad Pro and then a Macbook Air after she complained she couldn't do some things on the iPad. Well, eventually she figured out how to do it on the iPad and the MBA has been collecting dust. I adopted the MBA because my trusty old MBP is damn near geriatric (2015) and it's like a shot in the arm. I should have bought it sooner for myself.

FearlessNebula3• 4 years ago

I have to ask, why did you buy an iPad expecting it to collect dust?

kaba05• 4 years ago

What IDE do you use to code? I found nothing so far.

doix• 4 years ago

Similar story here, my girlfriend uses the iPad/pencil/procreate to draw commissions for people. She absolutely loves it, went did an art degree but then went down a different career path and is now getting back into it.

In a world filled with apps that require a subscription, a persistent internet connection or filled to the brim with ads, procreate really is a breath of fresh air. Just buy it and use it like in the good old days.

parkersweb• 4 years ago

Adobe purchasing Procreate in 3...2.... ;-)

AIrtemis• 4 years ago

Came here to +1 on the likelihood of transition thoughts and the discovery of procreate.

I also happened to gift an iPad Pro to my wife. Her daily workflow for work are apps like gdocs and buffer and the ipad handles that just fine. I think we underestimate how similar is the regular job workflow and overestimate the particular setup we need for programming / engineering.

And for digital art, she started from 0 and is now a pro at ClipStudio art and Procreate. She is working on her webtoon and has created plenty of nfts and twitter profile pictures on fiverr. I’ve started bringing an ipad to engineering lectures since it has also helped me a great deal with note taking.

I’ll send her your wife’s insta, here is her’s: https://www.instagram.com/yanora_draws/

mkaic• 4 years ago

Agreed. Procreate is a masterclass in iPad app design. Everything runs so smoothly, the features are deep but the interface is still beginner-friendly, it's a joy to draw in with the Apple Pencil, and it has really good options available for exporting your work. Plus, it automatically records a timelapse of every project that you can render out at the end, which is a small feature that I absolutely adore. All that for a single-time purchase? Heck yeah.

kylehotchkiss6• 4 years ago

I can’t believe it’s just a one-time $10 fee instead of the ridiculous and increasing creative cloud monthly/annual fees. I don’t know how they do it. Maybe it’ll be an annual fee one day but at least the app is worth it.

overgard2• 4 years ago

Procreate is great, but it really doesn't solve the same problems as Illustrator at all. Apples and oranges.

xd1936• 4 years ago

Still no "Liquid Retina XDR" display on the $800+ 11" iPad Pro :(

nomel6• 4 years ago

It, as with the last gen iPad Pro, does have Liquid Retina XDR:

Last gen: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212527

This gen, right on the product page: https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/

faeriechangling3• 4 years ago

The first page isn’t for the 11” model, and the second page claims it has a “Liquid Retina” screen capped at 600nits not a “Liquid Retina XDR” screen.

focom• 4 years ago

Isn't stage mode the main star of the show? It looks like the first baby step to have an actual desktop environment on the ipad.

hatware• 4 years ago

I bought an iPad Pro (M1) about a month ago. I'm glad I didn't wait, most of these upgrades are superficial or would not be noticed by me.

smm11• 4 years ago

Still digging my Galaxy S21 being a desktop experience over an HDMI cable.

But I'm probably switching to a Samsung phone that folds.

ChildOfChaos• 4 years ago

I'd love to see this explored more, it seems we have such power in our pockets, all we really need is devices to attach this too rather than more devices with the same cpu/memory and gpu's.

Particularly when you look at Apple devices, if you own multiple apple devices you have several devices with A or M series CPU and GPU's.

gorkish• 4 years ago

It's still pathetic they won't let you run OS X on it.

Toutouxc• 4 years ago

Just FYI, it's been called "macOS" for the last eight years. The last OS X was El Capitan.

orangecat2• 4 years ago

From Apple's perspective, macOS is a legacy product with the undesirable ability to run software of your choice without giving them a cut.

at_a_remove2• 4 years ago

I was told to expect wireless charging for these. I was excited about this, because my mother has an irrational "thing" about wires, and an uncharged iPad is a useless iPad.

nomel6• 4 years ago

There are many lightning charge docks [1]. Maybe something like that could work, if securely mounted to the back of a table, to hide the hanging wire.

Wireless charging pads also have cables. Do you hide them in table surfaces?

1. Random example: https://www.belkin.com/th/chargers/wireless/charging-stands-...

at_a_remove2• 4 years ago

Yeah, this is what I think I will have to go with, much as I dislike it.

null_object2• 4 years ago

Pretty much everyone here knocking the iPad Pros for being consumption-only passive entertainment devices.

But I guess the artists, musicians, video-editors and photographers using them professionally would disagree, if they ever came here.

dagmx8• 4 years ago

It’s a big issue with the audience of this site being too hyper focused on software development.

You can see it taken one step further in threads about GitHub Copilot getting torn to bits but the threads on Stable Diffusion getting lauded as the end of artists.

It’s the double standards that come up when people fixate only on what they know well themselves.

bovermyer3• 4 years ago

Yeah... I like Copilot for helping me with specific coding/data entry tasks, and I like Stable Diffusion for helping with my art workflow (I'm also an artist). I tend to keep quiet about such opinions on here, though, because I know I'll get downvoted into oblivion for heresy.

raxxorraxor7• 4 years ago

My criticism of Apple is that it is a closed environment and you get dependent on one manufacturer that is already using its position to demand high prices and doesn't really make you the owner of their devices. This conflicts with engineering in general all over the place for numerous reasons.

Industry automation relies on Windows, which isn't optimal as well, but it still is a far more open system. I hope they don't try to copy Apple. In-house advertising uses Apple for designs and that works decently well. Apple is seen as cool, but it is sometimes hard to integrate them into workflows or more serious work on data.

iOS and it derivatives are simply a toy OS and very unflexible. There is one solution to almost everything and in most cases it works. But that is more or less the end.

EugeneOZ• 4 years ago

And kids. My daughter is using her iPad extensively, and not only for games - she is drawing a lot, and her current CPU is already pushing the limits in some sophisticated drawing apps.

BudaDude• 4 years ago

I am a hobbyist video editor and I am excited for this iPad. I never thought I would see Davinci Resolve come to it. Especially before Final Cut.

jessriedel7• 4 years ago

I use it everyday for handwritten math. Unfortunately, the software is meager compared to the hardware.

srvmshr4• 4 years ago

I use the LiDAR of the iPad Pro to capture full schematic of room in 3D to prepare spatial datasets.

It isn't perfect. The sampling rate of iPad Pro is still lower than professional 3D cameras, but I can't complain when they cost a fraction of the latter. 3DScanner and similar apps do a great job at stitching the volumetric data on the fly & rendering on iPad itself (before I transfer).

We use these data to do some inference via 3D computer vision projects for clients

adrr• 4 years ago

Do creative types use Ipad Pros? The IPadOS file system is less than optimal. Adobe apps are the real thing and missing features.

My company has a full video team, and photo team. No one has asked for an IPad Pro. They do have proXDR screens and some beefy macs. Only execs have them for a high end zoom boxes especially if they have a windows laptop that have poor mics and cameras. Center stage feature is really nice.

theshrike793• 4 years ago

Now ask the full video team to spend 30 weeks of a year travelling around the world, producing video on locations.

I bet you they won't want to lug around the proXDR screens and beefy macs at that point.

musictubes7• 4 years ago

Are there any creatives that don’t work in industry? Video teams that use Mac Pros and Pro Display XDR wouldn’t even be able to use a MacBook Pro does that mean the MacBook Pro can’t be used by creatives?

So yes, creatives use the iPads. It is the main driver for more performance on an ipad. Drawing, audio performance, photo editing, hell, they are great second displays for MacBooks.

yamtaddle9• 4 years ago

Pretty much everyone here knocking the iPad Pros for being consumption-only passive entertainment devices.

Yeah, this criticism has never made sense to me. I think it could only come from people for whom the only purpose of computers is to make software, not to get out and... you know, do things with the software, in the actual world. I-devices excel at that. They are excellent computers as tools for doing things that aren't focused on locally testing docker containers or whatever we all do in our day jobs that require less-portable and kinda-dumber (their "view of the world", if you will, is much more limited) desktops and laptops.

hbn3• 4 years ago

I'll give you that artists use them for drawing.

But professional musicians, video editors, and photographers? All the software for doing any of those things is kneecapped versions of Mac apps. If they use an iPad at all it's as some kind of supplementary tool for the real machine the work gets done on.

mixmastamyk3• 4 years ago

It's very frustrating that you can't even do simple operations on files that were standard on the '84 Macintosh. I'm not talking about rocket-science or a git-based build system.

I had high hopes for the Files app when it debuted, and was very disappointed.

FearlessNebula3• 4 years ago

The thing is, is the iPad really the best device at the price point for these people? Artist seems like the only one.

- for a musician, surely the full featured desktop software is better? And for $800 you can get a pretty good laptop - video editors must also prefer a desktop OS. They can use keyboard hot keys, industry standard software, and get better GPU hardware - photographers might do pretty well with an iPad Pro but again I think they’d probably still be best with desktop class photoshop - a casual artist I will contend probably does best with an iPad Pro. But if they start doing really serious professional work, they will again probably want the full desktop software and an expensive Wacom hardware to go alongside

So at both casual and professional levels, the iPad Pro really only makes sense for a casual illustrator from what I can see.

boppo18• 4 years ago

But I guess the artists, musicians, video-editors and photographers using them professionally would disagree, if they ever came here.

I do. But be glad we generally don't, it would probably lower the quality of discussion.

foxandmouse• 4 years ago

The high refresh rate being limited to pro models seems like apple deliberately holding back a feature from it's lesser expensive models to avoid it competing with its more expensive models.

etchalon4• 4 years ago

Or it could be about profit margins.

joshl32532• 4 years ago

Well, why would any business want to have a standout SKU, and hurt their other SKUs? I guess this could also be a tactic, make one model "best feature/price ratio".

For better or worse, there's not "bang for the buck" iPad model. It really scales linearly. The more you pay, the more you get.

New budget iPad - $450 - Doesn't support Pencil 2. Want that? Upgrade to Air. Weakest processor. iPad Air - $599 - Support Pencil 2. Weaker screen technology. Mid tier processor. iPad Pro - $799 - Best of everything (except for MiniLED, which you need the 13" iPad Pro).

It really depends on how much features you can live with.

lbotos5• 4 years ago

Anyone have iPad Pro screen protector recommendations? Looking to get one of these and worried about screens getting "softer glass" and would rather have a sacrificial layer on top.

jessriedel7• 4 years ago

I wanted the "paper feel", which gives the screen a bit of roughness so it feels like writing on paper rather than glass. I went with this brand on Amazon and have been very happy with it:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07N362JCW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...

I bought it 18 months ago and still haven't needed to replace it. I can clean it as easily as the bare screen.

These types of layers add a very tiny amount of color distortion, so I guess not recommended if you do professional graphics work on the thing.

hayst4ck3• 4 years ago

I've generally been pretty happy with JETech's screen protectors, not happy with where they come from, not happy they appear to be a random amazon no-name brand, but I've been pretty loyal to them and when I've deviated, mostly to protectors bought in person, I've noticed a drop in quality.

kylehotchkiss6• 4 years ago

Best Buy does lifetime warranties on some of the screen protectors they sell. I have them on my phone. They’re not mind blowing but they have changed them for free for me no questions asked before.

bovermyer3• 4 years ago

So... what's the use case for this, versus say an XP Pen or Wacom graphics tablet and a Macbook?

The more portable nature?

jmull2• 4 years ago

It's nice they keep working on making iPadOS more useable. But it seems like a waste of time to me.

Just let iPads run MacOS already.

(or put the nice touch screen on MacBooks, same difference)

If it's too awkward to use macOS without a keyboard and pointing device then, sure, maybe MacOS mode isn't the default.

neilalexander• 4 years ago

Try using Sidecar for any substantial amount of time and you’ll realise just how awkward macOS is without a keyboard and pointing device.

jmull2• 4 years ago

It's not like the iPad Pro doesn't have nice keyboard and pointing device options.

I remote into MacOS and Windows machines from my iPad (12.9" iPad + Apple's keyboard/trackpad case + Jump) and it works well.

delta_p_delta_x4• 4 years ago

As a commment on the /r/iPad subreddit said, Apple accidentally made the most future-proof devices with the 2018 iPad Pros. There is not a single app that makes full use of the increased CPU power of these new iPads.

I own a 2018 11" iPP, and it has been a game-changer in the way I have studied. After buying it, I haven't printed a single sheet of paper for note-taking. It's also a much better Netflix device than my phone.

nozzlegear3• 4 years ago

I was just thinking this myself. I have the 12.9" 2018 iPad Pro and was considering pulling the trigger on this new iPad Pro announced today. But I really have no reason to, my current one runs perfectly and I've even got the floating keyboard case which is backwards compatible with it. It's replaced my laptop entirely, instead I just ssh into my Mac at home and use vim if I feel like writing some code on the road or from bed.

Honestly have no complaints with this 2018 model, it's one of my favorite pieces of hardware I've ever owned and in fact is what introduced me to the Apple ecosystem (where I'm now fully submersed) in the first place.

srvmshr4• 4 years ago

Very interesting! Can you please share your preferred apps for ssh/remote access to your home server or Mac? I think I could use that recommendation.

Tijdreiziger• 4 years ago

in fact is what introduced me to the Apple ecosystem (where I'm now fully submersed) in the first place.

If you’d be willing to expand on this, I’d be very interested to hear more.

I used to be all-in on Apple devices circa 2010, but drifted back to Windows and Android for gaming & better notification UX (and Windows being a much more familiar OS to me). However, I don’t game on PC anymore, and I’ve become increasingly unhappy with the privacy concerns regarding Google’s ecosystem.

I got a 2020 iPad and the UX is leagues ahead of my aging Samsung Galaxy S9. Given this and the aforementioned privacy concerns, I’ve been considering once again switching to an iPhone and MacBook. Therefore, it would be very valuable to me to hear more about your experiences (and others who have made the same switch and happen to read this).

mensetmanusman6• 4 years ago

Fun use case:

My 12.9” eventually had like 30 min battery life and I refuse to spend so much on a legit battery replacement.

Instead I mounted it on the side of our refrigerator to be always plugged in.

Our kids use it with friends to look at family pictures, play multiplayer arcade games, stream music, etc.

It became kind of a mini home console for them (it is mounted lower for their height).

It might be a good model for internet browsing as well, and texting, since it forces open communication as they wean into entering the dangerous internet (for some, it can be as dangerous as learning to drive…)

diebeforei4854• 4 years ago

Apple devices last a long time and get software updates for many years. You really don't need to upgrade unless either (A) the new device has features you want, or (B) your current device stops getting software updates, or potentially (C) you have some new use case that would be more performant on a newer device.

crazygringo5• 4 years ago

I assume multicore video encoding makes full use of the CPU?

It seems kind of crazy to say there's nothing that makes full use of the CPU.

mort963• 4 years ago

Do people ever seriously edit video on the iPad?

drcongo8• 4 years ago

I own a 2018 11" and an M1 12.9" and there's plenty of times the 11" has failed to cope with something the 12.9" barely breaks a sweat over. I'm not sure what you do with yours, but it's provably untrue that there is not a single app that makes full use of the increased CPU power of these new iPads.

temende2• 4 years ago

What app are you using that runs poorly on the 11”?

gnicholas7• 4 years ago

Bingo. I also have a 2018 11" iPad Pro, and the only things that would even nudge me in the direction of upgrading is a landscape-friendly selfie camera (like the new iPad got), significantly smaller bezels, Touch ID (again, the regular iPad has this), and a better display (11" doesn't have mini-LED).

musictubes7• 4 years ago

You’re right that the 2018 iPads are great. But people buying their first powerful ipad really don’t want a 2018 machine so Apple keeps improving them. Software improves as time goes on.

stinkytaco• 4 years ago

Serious question, would you recommend buying a refurb 2018 for modest usage over the new iPad 10.9"? It's about 100nits brighter, a bit lighter with a bit larger screen and supports pencil 2. Looks like they are about the same price as well.

sonofhans• 4 years ago

I would, certainly. I'm also using a 2018 Pro. The additional screen size makes more difference to me than brightness; I never have the brightness all the way up anyway.

delta_p_delta_x4• 4 years ago

If you can get a good deal on one, absolutely.

Despite its age, the 2018 iPads still fare very well for most tasks.

hartator3• 4 years ago

What do you use for note taking on an iPad?

delta_p_delta_x4• 4 years ago

I use both Notability and GoodNotes.

asdff5• 4 years ago

After buying it, I haven't printed a single sheet of paper for note-taking.

OTOH you can buy a whole lot of $3 spiral notebooks for the price of an ipad pro

makeitdouble2• 4 years ago

It depends on what you're planning to do with these notes.

For me notebooks go straight to paper recycling after a while, the space and burden is just too much. Anything I intend to last any devent amount of time is digitized, and scanning notebooks is a PITA.

delta_p_delta_x4• 4 years ago

Sure. But most of my notes are lecture slides as PDFs, and I have e-books also as PDFs. It's much easier to annotate directly on a PDF than to have to print them, annotate, scan, and ensure the scan quality is good.

At some point, 'it's cheaper' is just not a good enough argument for paper notebooks versus the sheer versatility of an iPad.

I would have to buy a veritable cart-load of writing stationery to emulate everything I do on my iPad. It would likely still be cheaper, yes, but it would also be much more of a pain in the neck.

diebeforei4854• 4 years ago

Except at some point those books end up in some storage box in the basement, or potentially tossed out. Digital notes are forever with iCloud/Dropbox/etc and can be searched anytime.

temende2• 4 years ago

That’s because apple hasn’t introduced any major new features to the ipad pro hardware since then. A 4 year old iphone is also just as future-proof but it doesn’t feel like that since they’ve added many new features to later models.

soneil• 4 years ago

That's where I'm at - I keep an eye on new releases because I'm a nerd and I like toys. But realistically I'm not going to shell out for them at least until this one stops getting OS updates.

I don't work-work on it, but it does sit beside me all day. Notes, manuals, calls, music etc. Sharing my screen, pulling up a diagram and the pencil is my favourite way to explain things on calls lately. Then I can just shoot them a pdf when we're done to cut out 'n keep.

I see nothing today that changes this for me - just new toys that I look forward to seeing in a few years.

gbba• 4 years ago

Video games are more enjoyable with the increased processing power!

Where the 2018 model struggles at high frame rates, the M1 version enables more fluid gameplay at 95-120fps. The new M2 would likely deliver more consistent 120fps performance given the advertised 15% CPU and 35% GPU uplift.

month13• 4 years ago

Hey, they tried really hard with Stage Manager running so poorly it required an M1 iPad in order to run.

They've since walked that back, and while it is being reworked will be coming to a14 models after all, probably sans the external display support.

RomanPushkin• 4 years ago

There is not a single app that makes full use of the increased CPU power of these new iPads.

Nomad Sculpt. There is no such thing as increased CPU power, often you're dealing with multiple millions of polygons. There is even limitation in the app saying "don't go over X number of polygons" because of CPU limitations. And it's the reason why I'm buying new iPad Pro - to be able to work with more polygons faster.

ndbebofienw• 4 years ago

I (almost) exclusively used “the new iPad” for all my studying and note taking a decade ago. Notability was my go-to app, and I used the touchscreen exclusively. It was a wonderful setup.

nomilk• 4 years ago

Any signs of a new MacBook Pro 16" with this announcement (or any indication of when we may hear something)?

carlosbaraza• 4 years ago

Apparently M2 Pro will launch in November, not October https://www.tomsguide.com/news/new-macbook-pros-with-m2-pro-...

reustle2• 4 years ago

Has there been any recent discussions as to why Apple still hasn't introduced cellular connectivity on their laptops? Is it yet another attempt to get people to convert over to the walled garden of iOS? With every ipadOS iteration, they push it to be closer and closer to a desktop experience (windows, monitor support, keyboard trackpad cover, etc).

etchalon4• 4 years ago

I'd wager it's a Qualcomm negotiation thing.

smoldesu18• 4 years ago

Modern WWAN might be a bit of a nightmare. I'm not super familiar with recent efforts in the space, but if Apple wanted to knock this out of the park, they'd need two things:

- Unlimited data plans, preferably at a non-insane price (sub $50-month would be nice)

- Both 4G LTE and 5G connectivity. Not just one or the other.

Both of these seem technically possible, but I'd assume they'd be incredibly difficult to pull-off from a business negotiation perspective.

ripdog• 4 years ago

Why does Apple need to provide the plan as well? I mean, given Apple's controlling nature, they may well wish to - but most laptops with mobile internet simply provide a SIM slot hooked up to a standard mobile baseband. Customers find their own plan, and many carriers offer plans which are tablet-oriented, with no calls/texts and sharing the data from a 'master' mobile plan.

jshier• 4 years ago

As sibling alluded to, they don't want to pay the per device royalty percentage, especially on high price devices like a MacBook Pro.

kylehotchkiss6• 4 years ago

Maybe once the apple designed 5g chips are ready. Maybe they’ll be a little more battery friendly. And apple will either have to negotiate something worthwhile with carriers or start their own mobile network to keep the data prices reasonable. None of the current carriers offer data plans suitable for full time laptop use.

vbezhenar2• 4 years ago

Is it possible to use iPad with Safari and VSCode? I'm thinking about something like GitHub Codespaces. Like development in browser.

brikwerk• 4 years ago

Code server might be what you're looking for: https://github.com/coder/code-server

The caveat with the above is that you'll need something to host it. You could use a computer on your local network or a VPS of some kind (DigitalOcean, Linode, etc all have cheaper plans for hosting).

Once you get Code Server running, you can add the URL to your homepage to remove the Safari URL bar.

kylehotchkiss6• 4 years ago

Try GitHub.dev on your iPad now. Totally possible. You can save a link to it on your Home Screen. It’s not a full time workspace but a decent backup option if on the go.

vbezhenar2• 4 years ago

I don't really own good iPad unfortunately, just trying to understand its capabilities.

Can I attach proper 4K display with keyboard and mouse if necessary? Will it work like desktop (when it comes to browser)?

While I don't really think that iPad is a good replacement for Macbook Air, that's an interesting option at least.

__jl__• 4 years ago

The iPad Pro is an amazing piece of hardware! But the last iterations make zero difference for most consumers. The hardware improved rapidly over a couple of years. Both the 2017 model (move from 9.7 to 10.5 screen) and the 2018 model (new design without home bottom, USB-C, Gen 2 Pencil) were huge steps. Magic Keyboard from 2020 was a great addition as well and works with the 2018 model. For my own usage, the 2018 model is pretty much feature complete from a hardware perspective. Software makes the big difference now.

I am still amazed by my 2018 iPad pro four years later!

drcongo8• 4 years ago

Would have bought it if it had a headphone jack. As it is, there's nothing here to get excited about over my M1 Pro.

hayst4ck3• 4 years ago

I was pretty skeptical of AirPods. Now I could never go back.

drcongo8• 4 years ago

I use my iPad for making music, the latency on AirPods or any other BT headphones makes them a non-starter. It makes me actually angry that they removed the jack from the iPad "pro", killing one of the very few actual pro uses for an iPad.

r2sk5t• 4 years ago

Dear Apple, Does the new iPad case have a place to store the pencil when traveling?

CharlesW4• 4 years ago

Apple will not make a case with Pencil storage, but Apple sells multiple third-party cases which do (https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HPKU2ZM/A/stm-dux-plus-fo...), and you can find hundreds of vendors which will sell you one.

gumby2• 4 years ago

What I found best is a strap with a narrow pouch sewn into it.

can16358p2• 4 years ago

Seriously, they should bring smart folio back. The one that doesn't have the unnecessary backside but only the side and the front cover.

jbellis2• 4 years ago

Did they discontinue smart folio keyboard? Magic Keyboard is almost 2x as heavy.

kstrauser4• 4 years ago

No, they fortunately still sell it: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MXNL2LL/A/smart-keyboard-...

It's my favorite case.

user_78322• 4 years ago

Do you have an image or link of which one this is?

Seriously, they should bring smart folio back. The one that doesn't have the unnecessary backside but only the side and the front cover.

Jtsummers2• 4 years ago

I think they mean the Smart Cover option.

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MQ4L2ZM/A/ipad-smart-cove...

Magnetically attached to an edge, only covers the front when "closed", the back when open, or can be folded up to provide a stand.

gumby2• 4 years ago

I really miss that too! Unfortunately iPads now stupidly have a camera bump

gubikmic• 4 years ago

This! (you mean the Smart Cover though)

Apple is pretending weight doesn't matter. They're all clunkers, even the "Air", once you add the keyboard.

My old 12" iPad Pro with the Smart Cover is still lighter than any of the new combos and yet it's heavy compared to certain Android tablets of the same size.

They're awfully heavy for a device that I treat like a dynamic book.

can16358p2• 4 years ago

You're right. I messed up the naming and I can't edit the comment anymore.

Yes I mean Smart Cover.

helf• 4 years ago

I had an iPad for a long while way back. I bought the Retina one initially.

It was nice for what it was.

I just can’t get excited about anything iOS as unless you have REALLY bought into the “ecosystem” it’s a clusterfuck.

- File management is still a sick joke.

- unless they’ve really changed something that I’m unaware of (which I’ll admit is entirely possible) with “iPadOS” vs regular iOS, multitasking is still a pathetic joke. The state saving and pausing which relegates the devices to essentially fancy task switching and not real preemptive multitasking (other than extremely specific program scenarios and services functionality) which drives me insane. Why the hell does my SSH client have to constantly ping my location to get around the “you can run 13 seconds in the background before the OS forcefully state pauses you”? Why the fuck can’t apple give a nice little “this app can run run run till it’s little heart bursts in the background!” Toggle switch you can control?

People go on and on about iPhone battery life and… there’s a reason for that.

- The ridiculous sandboxing between programs that’s supposedly a security feature but just makes for an insufferably inconsistent UI and terrible management of data between programs … I guess that goes with my file management complaint.

I dunno. I just can’t abide a complete blackbox lockdown of my devices to the point of them being literal appliances. But apparently I’m in the minority there.

Also, most people appear to just be perfectly happy rapidly task switching. And having only most of their programs paused when switched from works fine for them I guess.

I will say for /consumption/ of say documents like PDFs and Comics, the iPad is fantastic. But outside of that basic usage they drive me insane.

Sorry for the meandering rant. I’m waiting for food with my 8yo and bored lol

gnicholas7• 4 years ago

File management is still a sick joke.

I don't know if it's just me, but it seems like every time I go to save or open something on my iPad it defaults to iCloud. I don't have a paid iCloud account and find this supremely annoying, especially because the default folder names inside iCloud are the same as in local folders. It's as if they're trying to cause people to accidentally save stuff to iCloud, to get them in the habit of using it (and then paying for it).

thirdsun4• 4 years ago

I get your point but it's a sane default for most users. They expect their stuff to magically be there after replacing their devices. They don't make any distinction between local or cloud storage and can barely handle folder structures these days.

kaba05• 4 years ago

The ridiculous sandboxing between programs that’s supposedly a security feature but just makes for an insufferably inconsistent UI and terrible management of data between programs … I guess that goes with my file management complaint.

I don’t know, I do think that in theory that strong of a sandboxing is superior and would actually like a better implementation of that on even something like linux. Most of my programs absolutely have no reason to read my documents and what not.

mr_tristan• 4 years ago

I had the first generation iPad Pro. And eventually I gave it to my wife for a lot of the same reasons you list.

Ultimately, Apple will just doesn't want you to separate your data from the app. It's not just that it's a walled garden, it's a wall around you maintaining your data.

My primary tablet usage during the work day is taking notes. With a pen. And I've started organizing my notes into a self-indexed hierarchy of images. And for backup, those images go into S3. I can then just sync any other machine and peruse the images using Digikam which is kind of nice for a free open source app.

Every solution I've found in the iPad just requires you to put your data in some kind of isolated app playground, and then jump hoops to try to move it into any kind of backup system you can access on desktop OSes. I bought a Microsoft Surface, and despite not having worked in Windows in a decade or so, I was able to get my image-based note taking workflow done and set up in a day.

So, this iPad is a beautiful device I will never own. Purely because of their software policies. It's annoying.

retskrad• 4 years ago

Here in Scandinavia, the base iPhone 14 Pro Max, M2 MacBook Air and the new M2 iPad Pro all cost the same: $1,484. Good lord!

whalesalad• 4 years ago

lol - they're all basically the exact same thing with a different display

davnicwil• 4 years ago

Stepping back and reflecting on the fact this is true is very cool indeed.

thih94• 4 years ago

In case of the MacBook and the iPad, seems like it’s more about the OS. At least that’s what most comments here are mentioning when comparing an iPad to a MacBook.

elzbardico• 4 years ago

You need to really need to a use touchscreen and/or a pen to justify such an extravagance.

tshaddox5• 4 years ago

Or you just prefer the form factor overall to a similarly-priced MacBook. I much prefer my 12.9" iPad Pro (I have a 2nd generation one, from way back in 2017) over a comparable MacBook Air. This new iPad Pro is a tempting upgrade for me, although my 2017 device is still working fine which does make the expense difficult to justify.

turndown• 4 years ago

Have an M1 iPad Pro 12.9 inch with the Magic Keyboard and Pencil. Obviously won’t be upgrading any time soon(like 4-5 years minimum) and pray Apple understands that users want significantly improved OS software out of the box. Everything I’ve seen marks this as a disappointing software update, especially Stage Manager.

roody155• 4 years ago

I Work IT in a institution with 290 employees and have had 5 switch to iPad Pro's to "replace" their laptop. I am now 5 for 5 with all asking for their laptop back.

iPadOS is nothing more than iPhoneOS renamed and the device is still too heavily crippled for desktop/laptop replacement.

In my mini test case scenario I never said a word..simply the employee asked for iPad Pro.. I just handed it to them... waited... then about 2 weeks later they asked for laptop back.

Not sure what Apple's plan here is but they continue to market this to schools and workplaces as a laptop replacement but refuse to add functionality to the OS and keep it overly crippled/restricted.

steve_adams_863• 4 years ago

Kids who don’t know better might become accustomed to it and, unless they are power users or interested to become that, they might prefer to scrape by with the iPad.

There is pretty strong evidence that people aren’t great at using full fledged operating systems and feel much more comfortable on a slate with a dumbed down UI

criddell2• 4 years ago

Most people aren't power users. An iPad is a great device for lots of people. It's my favorite computer to use mostly because of the excellent apps.

What you call a dumbed down UI, I call streamlined. It's simple, focused, and fast.

jahewson2• 4 years ago

I would not say that “people aren’t great at using full fledged operating systems” but that fully fledged operating systems aren’t great at accommodating people.

spideymans• 4 years ago

iPads and Chromebooks are rapidly taking over education. Both K-12 and in college.

I think the pandemic really accelerated things. A lot more students are using iPads, rather than paper notebooks.

Terretta5• 4 years ago

On the contrary, I have owned MacBook Pros from the first to the last 17", then again every model since the 16". I also have iPad Pro with magic keyboard and touch pad. I don't travel with the MacBook any more, as I can do anything from the iPad. But it's not just me.

I've also been CTO at mega bank and hedge funds where we've rolled these out along side laptops. I've found that after initial objections, folks tend to agree. After a month or two, white collars who are not devs generally have switched to carrying the iPads, not laptops. Then the support costs basically go to zero, which matters a good deal at scale.

Users do have to think differently. That's ROUGH. Employees will ask for their old thing back if it changes their workflow, period. (See the book "Who Moved My Cheese?")

If they just use it, they generally find out it's fine. Could even be argued the Office / Teams ecosystem is superior.

Bonus: Letting employees have TWO screens (MacBook + iPad) also gives them two retina class monitors, portable, fantastic for hoteling or remote work or work from home. Two screens are better than one, and two that go with you are amazing. The new keyboard/cursor sharing while each device runs its own apps, with copy paste and drag drop between them is even cooler. In this model, the iPad Pro can become a Teams or Slack device, for instance, while other work stays on Mac, so you just wander off to a meeting with your collaboration tools intact. Instead of picking up where you left off, you just pick up and go.

roody155• 4 years ago

" I don't travel with the MacBook any more, as I can do anything from the iPad. But it's not just me."

Interesting, how long have you been iPad Pro only? At the price point of the iPad pro with a keyboard and touch-pad.. why not just buy a laptop like the MacBook Air?

Hauling around an iPad pro with a touchpad.. and an external keyboard seems less convenient than just using something like the MacBook Air. Unless I am missing something here.

ghaff• 4 years ago

I know people who are laptop power users who are fine traveling with just a tablet and an external keyboard. (They still use a laptop when they're not traveling.)

Good for them but I've never been able to make it work for me. I'll just carry the extra weight. But, to your point, it's also true that, beyond getting an external keyboard, I've never really committed to making a tablet work for me as my only travel device (other than a phone).

debaserab2• 4 years ago

Why do the support costs go to zero? I would think iPads would bring their own set of problems/hazards that laptops may not have.

JAlexoid2• 4 years ago

The biggest drawback of iPad OS is lack of windows, to drag around.If you don't need to multitask - iPad is OK.

I tried going all iPad and my husband opted for iPad Pro as personal computer - it is woefully underutilized.

"And that's not just me"

scoopertrooper• 4 years ago

Thing that really kills iPad for me is the web browsing experience. I just find iOS Safari so limiting.

It's also needlessly slow (considering M1). I suspect they have some optimisations designed for memory constrained devices like iPhone tuned in the same way for iPad.

Also ad blocker support is limited.

Oh and in a lot of video calling apps, if I try and browse something in Safari while the meeting is happening, then I'll suddenly stop sending video. Though that isn't strictly a Safari issue, more a Apple holding back features from third-party developer issue.

agentdrtran2• 4 years ago

I cannot imagine doing my job on on iPad, it's way too limited. can you open more than one google doc at a time yet? run desktop extensions on the web? open complex sheets/excel files? I have no idea what job other than sending emails and being on video calls all day could work on an ipad.

swah• 4 years ago

Are you talking about second screen as in Sidecar - or just to open the same app that you would use a Macbook for - eg Slack, email?

pinot4• 4 years ago

Anything in the gSuite is terrible on iPadOS. Excel is also fairly crippled. I can’t see how it’s usable at all.

Even just for emailing, GMail at least is a terrible application on iPad. For examples, cannot format anything, or view one email while writing another (that isn’t a reply).

I primarily use mine for

* Note taking

* Browsing/showing PDFs in a construction engineering setting. Nothing is faster or as flexible.

* Sketching for construction drawings

But the lack of good tabular worksheet and emails beyond quick replies pushes me back to my laptop all the time.

thefz3• 4 years ago

Maybe it's just me, but I can't think doing any meaningful work without access to the filesystem.

JumpCrisscross• 4 years ago

don't travel with the MacBook any more, as I can do anything from the iPad

This is what everyone I know with both devices does. I still prefer my Mac, but I'm in the minority in the under-fifty crowd.

jasonlotito• 4 years ago

This isn't contrary. Quite the opposite. None of the cases you present are iPad only. They are iPad alongside laptops. They might find cases where the iPad is fine, but none are iPad only.

And your "bonus" is basically an iPad Pro as a $1000+ chat device.

Now, if you mean that they added an iPad Pro, and eventually stopped ever using their laptop, that's a different story, but that's not what you said in your comment.

danielmarkbruce• 4 years ago

> Then the support costs basically go to zero, which matters a good deal at scale.

Genuine question - what is the biggest time sink/cost for support on laptops? Put another way, exactly why do support costs drop so much with the ipads?

selfmodruntime• 4 years ago

The fact that you can do all your work on an iPad as well as you could do it on a Laptop may say more about your work than the devices. I do not mean this in an insulting way, but perhaps your work is so disconnected from technology or the creative process that you could do it, no matter the device you're using?

bitL2• 4 years ago

IMO companies should give their employees one e-ink screen instead to save their eyes. Most office-style work can be done well on those screens and they are much healthier. I now barely use paper as I use an A4 Onyx tablet with e-ink screen and do most of my notes there. It's so much better than using iPad for that.

hartator3• 4 years ago

Two screens are better than one

Seems annoying actually.

truncate2• 4 years ago

I think for me a major bottleneck of using iPad as laptop is that the screen is still gonna be on heavier compared to keyboard, and the whole combo doesn't feel as solid and sturdy as a good laptop does. iPad feel more physically free in some ways (you can just use screen etc ...), and physically restrictive in others (doesn't feel like one big sturdy unit with keyboard).

That all aside, as an engineer it's too restrictive and less fun. I'm sure it can get a lot of other non-programming workflows done quite well though.

cm2187• 4 years ago

I wonder who at mega bank and hedge fund isn't using excel...

My experience at mega bank is that the IT department is often delusional about what business users actually do.

jiveturkey3• 4 years ago

Instead of picking up where you left off, you just pick up and go.

Completely lost me. You don't logout, close all your windows, and so on, when you undock/unplug and go mobile. I never have a problem picking up and going with my laptop, then coming back to my desk right how I left it. And the 27" monitors (32" also common here) are far, far better for productivity and dev work than a 13" ipad HDR screen. iPad is a poor choice for a 2nd screen.

You can even create a separate workspace for when you detach. I don't do that myself but plenty of my colleagues do. (If you don't do that then sometimes a window re-homes itself if you resize or move it while undocked, thinking that is its new home.)

alexwasserman3• 4 years ago

Ran a similar play recently and found a similar result.

Can’t understate how much people want the nice/fancy/pro device too. It’s hard to lure people off MBPs to generic PC laptops or chromebooks but an iPad Pro + magic keyboard is shiny enough.

Not just lower support cost, but much higher security bar at a lower cost too. Having been at the same fund, and other big banks, that’s an important consideration. Strong MDM, yubikey support if you want it, decent app sandboxing, etc. gives a lot of security control in a nicer manner than on a desktop OS.

Finally, I think the Office/GSuite issue depends so much on usecase and who’s using which bits of each suite. Gmail is so much nicer than Outlook, but GDrive horrible organizationally compared to OneDrive, while GDocs collab beats O365, etc.

overgard2• 4 years ago

A few questions since this is a novel thing I haven't really heard of in the business world!

1) What tasks do the people you manage tend to do on their machines?

2) Why replace the laptops with iPads if you expected it to be disruptive for a month?

pottertheotter2• 4 years ago

I think there's a big difference between traveling with an iPad Pro and only having an iPad Pro.

raxxorraxor7• 4 years ago

You might not need anything else if you only do some presentation work, data display or write some mails.

It also shines for people that like to write non-digitally. Awesome to draw a quick sketch. But for anything else? Not really a working device. It seems to convince management because Apple is shiny.

This isn't some topic about thinking differently, this is a topic of being restricted, which frankly iOS (before rebranding) simply does to you. Maybe you can map all your workflows to some iOS tool, but I assure you that a notebook is still more powerful. The two monitors might indeed be an advantage though and I hate any form of hoteling and luckily don't do that too often.

jbellis2• 4 years ago

If they would just allow UTM to run, that would be good enough for me.

https://getutm.app/

avidphantasm• 4 years ago

This! They even enabled swap on iPadOS 16. Why oh why can’t I run a VM?

hellomyguys• 4 years ago

If they're competing against Chromebooks, they're maybe better actually.

raxxorraxor7• 4 years ago

Because web apps can actually opens up the flexibility of a classical computer system again. For strategic purposes Apples support here is minimal.

Still not optimal, but certainly far better for education, not only because of the price and because you don't make yourself dependent on a single manufacturer or at least to a lesser degree.

Largest problem is the lack of education of teachers though.

alana314• 4 years ago

I use the ipad for reading music scores but would never replace it with a laptop. M1 and M2 is overkill for a consumption device that doesn't have a real file system accessible to the user.

tiahura• 4 years ago

It's not just that the OS is crippled, the apps are as well.

Trying to quickly navigate between apps, edit, and copy and paste, is an exercise in frustration.

jahewson2• 4 years ago

refuse to add functionality to the OS and keep it overly crippled/restricted.

Is this your opinion or was there any feedback from those 5 users?

derefr3• 4 years ago

but refuse to add functionality to the OS and keep it overly crippled/restricted

What would the point of "adding functionality to the OS" be? If they wanted to put macOS on iPads, they'd just put macOS on iPads.

My understanding at Apple's strategy here is that they're simultaneously exploring two different GUI paradigms — almost pitting them against one-another to see which wins (or, if you like, making a hedged bet):

• macOS, for building "Unix pipeline-like" workflows where you point different programs-as-tools at the same document or take one program's output as another's input. Apple encourages macOS developers to make this kind of app.

• iPadOS, for building "all-in-one silo" workflows (think: Photoshop, Garage Band, XCode), where the developer intends to solve fully for a use-case, such that people with that use-case can get by using only their app. In these cases, rather than interacting with other apps, a siloed app will embed whatever other accessory workflows a user might need, either directly (e.g. XCode embedding a terminal console) or through plugins (Photoshop plugins, Garage Band VST support.) The user might use other apps at the same time as this app, but not in a way where the apps are sharing data or interacting in any way; rather merely using each app to "do what it does" — e.g. referencing a design diagram in Miro while implementing that design in XCode, and writing down reminders in some reminders app. (Thus, the iPadOS 16's Stage Manager, which assumes you want several apps on screen at once, but doesn't implement drag-and-drop between apps or any other kind of useful inter-app interaction.)

As a user, as long as each user-story you have has been perfectly addressed by some particular siloed iPadOS app, then iPadOS should work for you. (And there are a lot of people whose user-stories have all been perfectly addressed by these siloed iPadOS apps — mostly, people with boring, predictable, traditional workflows. Novelists; illustrators; business executives; possibly salespeople.)

However, if your workflow is niche or "constantly reinventing itself" enough that nobody's ever going to make a siloed app specifically for your needs, and so you expect to get things done by throwing files between various different tools all day — then iPadOS is never going to work for you. You need a desktop OS designed around that kind of thing.

smoldesu18• 4 years ago

Well, MacOS won. Silos don't work, and they especially don't work when Apple controls the means of distribution single-handedly. MacOS has clutched onto a shred of relevance by letting the user install package managers, download software from the web, run software compilers, and so much more. There is not a future where iPadOS "wins" and MacOS is slayed in ritual combat, or something. It's obviously not a contest, and even by your own admission the separation of these OSes is mostly arbitrary. Apple knows they're gimping the iPad, they're just expecting other people to not care.

Everyone would be happy if Apple focused more on perfecting the iPad's hardware instead of pushing iPadOS to the brink. An iPad with options to run MacOS, iPadOS or Linux would be the knockout product-of-the-decade for Apple IMO. Judging by the design of Monterey, I think iPad/Mac convergence seems fairly likely.

Fiahil3• 4 years ago

As a user, as long as each user-story you have has been perfectly addressed by some particular siloed iPadOS app, then iPadOS should work for you.

And then I tried sending a pdf by email. Oh well.

Can I share it on the corporate FTP ? Oh no.

Let me airdrop this to you... Wait... is this a windows / android device ?

...

Alright, I'll just use my laptop. My iPad is too niche for this workflow.

squeaky-clean2• 4 years ago

Is everything they do web-based? Or did they just not know that it won't run any desktop software and that even if there is an app-store version it's usually cut down to half the features of the desktop version?

bradgessler• 4 years ago

I used the iPad Pro for about 2 years for nothing but productivity apps and it was overall pretty great.

It wasn't without issue though, here's what I ran into:

1. I didn't run any dev tools on the iPad. That's insane. I used a laptop running macOS for that.

2. Google Docs updates would always ship with weird bugs, like if I'm editing a cell in a Google Sheet and hit space, the space wouldn't insert.

3. There's loads of issues with drag and drop in most apps. Dragging and dropping a picture from Photos into a document is the most common flow which works in some apps, but not in others.

The plus sides:

1. The built-in cellular connection is amazing. I wish MacBook Airs would ship with built-in cellular.

2. The Apple Pencil (2nd gen) is great if you design software or UX.

alistairSH5• 4 years ago

Google Docs updates would always ship with weird bugs

Is that really an Apple problem? Sounds like Google is just lazy with QA on Apple devices.

Did you try Numbers or Excel and have similar problems?

jiveturkey3• 4 years ago

1. The built-in cellular connection is amazing. I wish MacBook Airs would ship with built-in cellular.

don't you always have your phone on you? i don't have any issue at all tethering.

qubex• 4 years ago

I have an executive roll and I used an iPad almost exclusively from probably 2013 until about six months ago. It’s eminently doable.

bee_rider• 4 years ago

Programming on the iPad was OK, in the sense that Blink Shell is a better ssh client than PuTTY, and I don't want to carry my desktop around with me. Eventually I switched back to a Linux 2-in-1 laptop -- it is nice to be able to run GUI applications locally, but it is nowhere near as good a tablet as an iPad despite whatever tweaking I try...

cute_boi3• 4 years ago

actually many people don't use putty and recommending putty in 2022 is not that good. Windows terminal etc can easily do ssh without any hassles.

tshaddox5• 4 years ago

I can't speak to how Apple attempts to make deals with schools and workplaces, but their normal consumer marketing seems to pretty clearly highlight the differences between a MacBook and an iPad. If anything they seem to go out of their way to maintain significant differences in the two operating systems (which, ironically, is also a very popular complaint in tech circles).

martin_drapeau2• 4 years ago

My daughter is 16 and has used an iPad for school for many years. Latptops are foreign to her. Same for her cohort. They are the next generation of adults and have replaced desktops and laptops with iPads and iPhones.

solaceb• 4 years ago

That is scary to me, an entire generation growing up within the walled garden and perceiving only Apple's products as what is possible for computers to accomplish. These computers are confining, as much as their constriction liberates the user in its simplicity, it is a real constriction. To me, that's exactly what the FLOSS movement hoped to avoid, and failed to do so by advocating for a purist f/open stance rather than winning smaller battles with open source at least staying in the war for market share.

anotherman554• 4 years ago

I believe Chromebooks are more popular in the education market in general.

JimDabell2• 4 years ago

In my mini test case scenario I never said a word..simply the employee asked for iPad Pro.. I just handed it to them... waited... then about 2 weeks later they asked for laptop back.

If you work in IT with hundreds of staff members, why would you let them pick their own devices with zero guidance? This seems like a recipe for disaster no matter which product is picked. Do you let them do this with laptops / printers / operating systems / etc.?

roody155• 4 years ago

Nope there are only three computer models to choose from and that we support. The iPad Pro was added as a 4th option based on a higher admin recommendation (not in IT ). However we are now back to supporting 3 models.

washadjeffmad• 4 years ago

We have over 3000 employees with Apple equipment as their primary device, and probably 200 of them are iPad Pro only.

They do serve different niches than laptops, but with a keyboard case in an Office 365 environment, they can be full office/productivity replacements for anyone who prioritizes light travel over running local software.

afro88• 4 years ago

Given how you approached it (zero guidance and support), I'm not surprised all 5 asked for their laptops back.

blinkingled• 4 years ago

It's a great consumption device though - ever since Google stopped paying attention to the tablet space we have an iPad 9.7 that lays in the kitchen and all my family members only touch it for watching Netflix or YouTube.

Even for browsing it feels very slow compared to Surface tablet or even Firefox on M1 MBP now a days.

Spooky23• 4 years ago

It depends on the user.

Execs and task oriented workers are great iPad use cases. In a global org I’m familiar with, they run about 15k iPads, about 5-10% of the IT engaged headcount. Senior execs in large orgs in particular are ideal in the iPad environment.

For schools, I think the iPad sweet spot is grade K-4 for dedicated devices; 4-8 is Chrome and 8+ can be Mac/Chrome/PC. For shared or purpose dedicated devices, iPads fit every level.

Lots of other use case are limited by legacy or enterprise software. Police patrol car, medical point of service and point of sale are examples of use cases where iPads would be the ideal solution, but for the existing software.

cush• 4 years ago

I don't think Apple is marketing it as heavily as you think at replacing Workplace laptops, but moreso consumer laptops. iPad is a delightfully simple device for consuming any kind of media, editing photos and videos, light to medium gaming, and doing little creative things.

Lio2• 4 years ago

What kills it for me are the apps where you can't copy a single word. e.g. Apple's own Messages app, you're forced to copy the whole message.

Same for the spell checker. For some reason I have ridiculous trouble triggering it in certain apps. I can see the mistake underlined in red but I really struggle to get trigger the correction popup instead of the "copy, lookup, etc" popup.

Maybe it's just me but I don't think I could consider an iPad as laptop replacements without some basic changes to iPadOS.

thiht• 4 years ago

apps where you can't copy a single word

This one is ridiculous. On Reddit I always want to quote part of a message or copy a phrase to translate it, and it’s literally impossible to do. You have to copy the whole message, paste it in a text editor or in Notes, and finally copy what you actually wanted to copy.

This should be solved at the OS level.

wilg5• 4 years ago

I don't even understand the advantage of an iPad for non-drawing work. It's just a worse laptop with a too-small keyboard that can fall off and a square screen so it's not good to watch video on and an OS that doesn't do anything well. But Mac laptops are amazing, run all the same software, and don't have any of these problems.

themagician• 4 years ago

I can't adapt to the workflow on an iPad either, and I have tried. I have really tried. However, I have seen other that have. To them the iPad is easy and macOS is overly complicated.

I am not sure if general computing is changing or there are now two branches, but I have watched other people do things on iPads that I consider impossible. Even simple things, like working in Excel, I find challenging on an iPad. But when I watch someone else who sort of "grew up" on iOS work in Excel on an iPad they are like some kind of wizard. I have found myself more than once now asking someone, "How did you do that?" feelsbadman.jpg

I think a lot comes down to muscle memory and shortcuts. While I know many/most of the shortcuts on iPadOS they are not automatic for me the way they are on macOS. I often have to think, "Wait… how do I do this on the iPad again," for even simple things. I even find drawing applications unintuitive. In the Adobe suite everything is explicit. In Procreate everything is unlabeled. This is even true in consumer applications, like Facebook vs Snapchat. Pinch here, tap there. Swipe from one of the four sides to reveal some function that is completely hidden. But for some people this is intuitive. There is an additional layer (or two) of UI abstraction in iOS/iPadOS that I have not internalized.

There definitely ARE some things you can't do on an iPad, but that list is actually shorter than you might think. There are a lot of things that you can do, they are just done differently… and in a way that, at least for me, seems to take a lot more work. But for others they are like, "Eww, why do I have to look for an icon and move the cursor over to it when I can just…" and then they proceed to input what is essentially sign language into the screen while holding down a modifier key.

alistairSH5• 4 years ago

I have an iPad Pro M1 11" with the Magic Keyboard.

It doesn't fall off or detach unexpectedly at all. And the keyboard size is close enough to "normal" that I don't notice for normal typing. The only thing I miss is a dedicated ESC key.

All that said, it only replaced my personal laptop. I continue to use a 13" MBP at work.

thih94• 4 years ago

Work is not always about content creation, some people work mostly by consuming content (reading websites, browsing photos, selecting movie clips, navigating PDFs, or something else) and iPad is great for consuming content.

pottertheotter2• 4 years ago

I think it's superior for reading. Newsletters, news, articles, etc.

miiiiiike• 4 years ago

I have my iPad Pro+Magic Keyboard with me 24/7. I wish I could code on it but that's it. For everything else it's perfect.

jxdxbx2• 4 years ago

I don't like how Apple is making the iPad more laptop-y. My ideal is to use a normal desktop computer, and an iPad. No laptop. But if I had to pick only one of course it would be a laptop.

barbariangrunge2• 4 years ago

My use case for this would be fairly simple: future proofing, to make it unlikely to need a new tablet for 10 years

micromacrofoot• 4 years ago

Makes a lot more sense if you consider the idea that "pro" has become a luxury designation rather than the audience they're marketing towards.

jeremy_wiebe• 4 years ago

Without a clear description of what these employees were using their iPads for, it's impossible for anyone else to use this info to determine if their scenario fits yours.

Your ability to use iPad full-time depends heavily on the type of work you do.

NoPicklez2• 4 years ago

I can attest to this, I worked in IT back in 2011 at a school where teachers loved the idea of iPad's over their clunky laptops.

However, in time, they all needed their laptops back and either gave the iPad back or worked 50/50 across both devices.

I have no doubt that today the iPad is more useful for students and teachers, but if you don't have a defined workflow that easily allows for the use of iPads teachers won't use them. We're all too familiar with the way in which Windows works and it integrates well with the networks companies use.

baby• 4 years ago

I personally carry both my ipad pro and macbook pro all the time. They’re just both so useful.

lucasyvas• 4 years ago

It honestly just needs virtualization. They don't care about evolving the product because they are mortified of cannibalizing a revenue stream in an official way.

Only nerds and IT would bother with virtualization and they'd net a new sale.

I've been eyeing an iPad Pro, but it's just a colossal waste as it trends strongly toward only consumption, which is frankly a poor purchase.

senectus1• 4 years ago

ipads (like phones) are appliances... designed for consuming. Much like a microwave or a fridge. they're designed for very specific scenarios. sure you could make it do other things... but it will not be very effective.

Laptops are swiss-army knives. you can create/consume/compute and they're pretty effective at all those things.

ngcc_hk• 4 years ago

Either-or obviously desktop. But why either-or not both and an iphone as well. The form factor is so different. And if you develop with lots of internet and book/pdf to reference.

You can ask me to choose TV or ipad or even in reading novel kindle or … obviously not job setting but it is just different tools.

KolenCh• 4 years ago

By design it is never going to be able to replace a "laptop" running desktop OS. If the workplace is not designed to work with iPad, then I doubt anyone really can replace even a MacBook with iPad.

Your "mini test" is invalid because they are allowed to choose, ie intermixing all sort of OSes together. In that case it is very likely any workflow the iPad excels at are not used in the workplace, and vice versa that anyone else' workflow is really traditional (as simple as depending on the file system a lot) that doesn't play well with iPad.

When your mini test doesn't agree with how successful it is (for business to deploy iPad), it just means your mini test is nowhere near the norm.

Eg you mentioned school, that's the best case for the iPad to shine, because everyone are mandated to use iPad, and the IT would have already figure out how to perform all needed tasks. (And bonus is that the students are a blank state with no prior bias on how to do a certain thing.)

chernofool• 4 years ago

Too bad that Apple works so hard to strangle 3rd-party software in the cradle.

A device like this would be fantastic with a full desktop environment. Many desktop apps have solid touchscreen support now, ChromeOS has demonstrated that mobile apps can be run seamlessly in a desktop window manager, and you could easily dock it to use with bluetooth mouse/keyboard.

Alas, we've got to put up with a hi-res smartphone OS because that is Apple's vision for this product line.

rowanG0773• 4 years ago

Is it possible to run virtualized linux on these and have all hardware stuff working?

asadlionpk• 4 years ago

Not yet. best so far is UTM.

bullen3• 4 years ago

But does UTM support OpenGL powered by the M2 GPU?!

And off topic but what about connecting a mouse to this thing?

And what about compiling apps on it!?

What about running OpenGL on non emulated linux on this?

I know the GPU is being worked on but do the old OpenGL parts work allready or is that part of the reverse engineering?

I wish you could change batteries yourself... hopefully they have moved towards that: 3/10 on the old one: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad+Pro+11-Inch+Teardown/11...

asimpletune• 4 years ago

The convergence between iPad and Mac is pretty brilliant. If you think about it, the iPad now has a lot of features that are much better than a top of the line Mac, like 5g and the display tech.

It’s all still too new but if you read the tea leaves we are heading towards a convergence. In the future there will be a device that behaves like an iPad on its own. With an app and touch oriented experience, but when connected to a keyboard and mouse will be like a Mac today. The universal app stuff is a great indicator of them moving in that direction, even if it’s still new.

One thing I don’t really understand though is how a Unix interface will work with a device that is also iPad OS. Like, if you can install stuff from online, eg through home brew, will you be able to side load apps? If that’s the case I think the app experience might suffer, but at the same time if the Unix experience has its wings clipped then what do they plan to replace it with?

I mean that sincerely. I don’t think apple is so naive as to think they can make macs into iPads and not provide an alternative. Maybe they’ll offer a native package manager, one that’s even reverse compatible with brew as a starting point, and then provide an integrated notary process as part of that system for publishing recipes.

lifeinthevoid• 4 years ago

How large a piece of the chip is that 16 core Neural Engine eating? I'd rather have a more powerful CPU + GPU or am I missing the point a bit? Anyone care to shed some light?

awelkie• 4 years ago

I live pretty far from my parents, and I really want to set them up with a nice video conferencing setup so we can chat as well as in person. I started to spec out a nice setup with open-back headphones, 60 Hz 1080p camera, nice microphone, low latency screen, the works. But this would cost at least $1k, and I'm sure it would be difficult for them to operate. Plus it would be hard to use in certain situations like with children or while eating.

So I've decided to get them the iPad Pro. I'm trusting Apple to focus on things like screen latency and microphone/speaker quality in their products. Plus it should be quite easy for my parents to use. It just seems to me like the iPad Pro is the best product for setting up non-tech people with a decent videoconferencing setup.

Has anyone else solved this problem, or have thoughts on using an iPad for video chatting?

zalthor• 4 years ago

I felt like the system that’s in the portal from Facebook would be the ideal vc setup for my parents (i.e. video calling on a tv). Though, there’s no way I’d want to put a camera from Facebook in my parents house. I did try Google duo (I guess it’s call meet now?) with a Google tv, but since it was with a 3rd party web cam, things like autofocus didn’t work as well as I’d like.

llampx3• 4 years ago

nice setup with open-back headphones, 60 Hz 1080p camera, nice microphone, low latency screen, the works.

Why do all these niceties go out the window when the alternative is an iPad?

Based on the use case, a simple last-gen iPad should do the job just as well.

syntaxing• 4 years ago

Second with what others said, the new standard iPad should fit your bill. It has the ultrawide camera too with people tracking which makes it even better.

skybrian• 4 years ago

For video chat, you don't need the latest. After the camera on my MacBook stopped working, I started using a 5th gen iPad mini. I use it with a stand on the kitchen table, in landscape mode, and it's fine.

Bigger isn't necessarily better. My wife has a full-size iPad and I find it awkwardly big for most purposes.

But for ease of use for the technically challenged, I think something like a Nest Hub Max might be better, since it will automatically point the camera. Caveats: it's not easy to set up for someone without a cell phone (it's technically unsupported), but once you do it for them, it's easy to make a call. Also, weirdly, the video only works when they call me; if I call them it's audio only. (I ask them to call me back.)

dekhn2• 4 years ago

Is anybody hooking up a keyboard and mouse to their ipad pro and using it as an interface to a remote desktop running in the cloud? If so, what software stack?

skazazes2• 4 years ago

code-server https://github.com/coder/code-server works fairly well and can be saved to the home screen as a web applet to get rid of the browser URL bar. Their are a few UI issues related to touch but it has served well enough for some light work.

You can also use a remote apps like Rainway/TeamViewer/RDP/VNC somewhat successfully to get a more full desktop experience. Unfortunately they all seem to have their own input caveats that take some getting used to.

I am personally waiting for Parsec to release native iPadOS and tvOS clients as it provides the best experience I have found.

It seems like the gaming oriented remote desktop apps (Rainway https://rainway.com/, Parsec https://parsec.app/) are the best though as the latency on the more traditional ones is somewhat of a hindrance.

USB/Bluetooth keyboard and mouse support tends to work okay, but the simulated touch mouse makes getting used to things tough. If you have not tried using iPad OS with a mouse I suggest you look into before making a purchase as it is a fairly limiting experience.

dekhn2• 4 years ago

Thanks. I wodner if you could tether an ipad and raspberry pi running Code (which isn't really RDP, but a web app that includes a shell) in a fairly self-contained way.

simonebrunozzi• 4 years ago

I was waiting for a Macbook Pro M2 2022 announcement... :(

fmajid• 4 years ago

It has IEEE 802.11ax WiFi6E, first Apple device with it, apparently. Even the M2 MacBook Air and the Mac Studio don't have it.

Edit: only dual-band. no 6GHz? WTF, Apple? Definitely skipping this generation, then.

adrusi• 4 years ago

With iPhone video hardware, ProRes support, and a thunderbolt interface that makes 4k ProRes actually practical to get off the device, the iPad Pro is now likely to be the best video recording device for certain creative niches. You can even edit the video on the same device that captured it in a pinch.

bwanab• 4 years ago

Maybe it's my bias as a musician, but as long as Apple doesn't put Logic on the iPad, it's just not a system that works as a piece of professional kit.

codq• 4 years ago

No Logic on iPad and the sunsetting of Music Memos... I sometimes feel like Apple is becoming hostile to musicians.

CharlesW4• 4 years ago

As you know (but others may not), the idea is that you get as far as you can get in GarageBand, then move the project to Logic¹. There's also a way to export a "to go" mix from Logic for GarageBand².

You can get surprisingly far with just GarageBand³.

¹ https://support.apple.com/guide/logicpro/garageband-projects... ² https://support.apple.com/guide/logicpro/share-a-project-to-... ³ https://www.melodynest.com/hit-songs-produced-on-garageband/

stewx• 4 years ago

the 16-core Neural Engine can process 15.8 trillion operations per second — 40 percent more than M1 — making iPad Pro even more powerful when handling machine learning tasks

Do people actually use the iPad for machine learning?

edude03• 4 years ago

Yeah actually, it's really good for inference at the edge. You might be thinking of training though which I doubt anyone does

balderdash• 4 years ago

If you only use communication tools, web based apps, Word, and only need to be able to open/tweak an excel or PowerPoint doc, then yeah they’re awesome, anything more and you need a laptop.

thepasswordis2• 4 years ago

It is hilarious to me that apple keeps adding accessories to the iPad to make it look more and more like a laptop.

The iPad is a very bad laptop, but is a great tablet.

Insanity• 4 years ago

I have seen some discussions on this post about the use of iPad Pro as a device for actual work, so I will chime in with my experience.

First of, I love the iPad Pro and have been using it for about a year almost daily. I use it for leisure as well as actual work. I am currently writing a technical book, and I decided to do it all on my iPad. I hook up my external keyboard and the Mx Master mouse is paired to both my MacBook and iPad, so I can easily switch.

I initially thought that I would not really like it, but ended up using it as my preferred to device for such work. I can easily sketch things in GoodNotes, and writing with the pen helps me think. I use Termius to ssh into my development machine when I need to write some code, and I use Word to write the text content. I also use the GitHub app although that doesn’t work perfectly so I use the web version as well.

I hardly ever use split screen, so each app is essentially in distraction_free mode. I also notice that I get side tracked way less (no slack, email, or other distractions which I check often on my MacBook). Plus when travelling I only take my iPad now, I worked from airports and hotels only on this device.

I was definitely sceptical about it, but ended up loving it. It actually made me reconsider buying a new macbook, and at this point I would rather upgrade my iPad than buy the new MacBook anyway.

(It is also a great leisure device, depending on what you do. I have Netflix and YouTube on here, and I occasionally draw a bit).

In my day job, I am an engineering manager and it take notes on the iPad as well. Would I switch to the iPad for full Time development? No, probably not. But I do use it for my side projects, and for something like advent of code it is good enough as well.

0xCMP• 4 years ago

I used to be a die-hard iPad-for-coding user, but with the advent of the M1 MBAs I couldn't justify it anymore.

The thing that broke me was that if I wanted a remote development env (because at the end of the day you can't do development on an iPad without some remote computer running stuff for you) at the time you needed to a) provision on via safari manually b) have some kind of script or something on the iPad capable of doing that for you c) have a cheap/low-power computer always running to run the scripts. [This is assuming you don't have a remote computer already you can turn on. E.g. "only iPad + on-demand cloud resources"]

I eventually concluded the M1 MBA is a better option because of how heavy an iPad Pro 12" + Magic KB Case is in comparison.

I still *love* my iPad Pro. The screen is almost a good enough reason to use it. Also it had LTE which was very useful.

I still think it's possible to make the iPad do everything I wanted the M1 MBA to do without significantly changing how Apps are developed or restrictions on iPadOS (and apps like ShellFish, WorkingCopy, and Blink Shell are really my go-to examples of how that could have existed all this time), but while possible today it's just much higher friction and cost to use an iPad to do the same thing an entry-level M1 MBA could do.

powersurge360• 4 years ago

Is this using an iPad for coding or is this using an iPad as a dumb terminal and using something else for development?

At the end of the day, that’s what makes an iPad unappealing for me as a development machine. If I am going to pay for an iPad and then rent an affordable VPS just to dev on then why not just buy a computer I can develop on locally right away? Sure, LTE is cool but it probably is more cost effective to go the other way and pay for a hotspot plan for your phone and tether your computer that way.

That being said, I do occasionally feel cool doing dev on my laptop remotely from my iPad using a combination of tailscale, tethering from my phone and using iSH to ssh into an emacs session.

jbverschoor• 4 years ago

Still no NFC?

h4waii• 4 years ago

This isn't surprising, but it's unfortunate -- Apple still hasn't even opened up CoreNFC on the Watch.

I have a custom app for my business which uses NFC, and it's a bummer that iPads, and just about no modern Android tablets have NFC, so while I'd love to use a tablet to do certain tasks, I can't.

kylehotchkiss6• 4 years ago

What’s your use case? I’m imagining people holding a 12in iPad by a door keypad or Apple Pay terminal fumbling around trying to find where the sensor is (I’m not being very creative with this I realize)

raxxorraxor7• 4 years ago

Our coffee machine isn't free anymore because of extensive usage, but we can pay with any NFC ID we register. My primary use case for an iPad is as a coffee coaster too, perfect synergy.

boppo18• 4 years ago

Illustrator here. Very frustrating that hover cursor is new-device only. Here I was hoping for an apple pencil V3. I figured it would be a $200 upgrade, not sell-current-device + $1200. I've got a top of the line 2020 (all specs max) and it seems to have lost about half of its value going by ebay prices.

sdze• 4 years ago

Still no torrent app possible = no buy.

Hopefully the EU breaks Apples‘ App Store Monopoly.

nkristoffersen2• 4 years ago

Best feature not really mentioned is Sidecar! Having a second high quality screen has been a game changer. So portable and so powerful. I will be upgrading my 2018 12.9 iPad Pro to the latest. Mostly for the better screen to match my M1 Max.

faeriechangling3• 4 years ago

Pretty boring announcement, biggest things is that Apple finally has stock of Broadcom 6E radios so you can expect those going forwards, and that ad expected Apple couldn’t manage to get over 600nits on their small screen device.

intrasight• 4 years ago

Imaging what a great product we would have if Apple ditched the Mac and put all that hardware and software effort towards a unified touchscreen convertible tablet.

hartator3• 4 years ago

Can this actually replace a MacBook for a backend engineer workflow?

crims0n2• 4 years ago

No - but it's closer than ever, yet still probably years away.

kylehotchkiss6• 4 years ago

github.dev works fine on an iPad - you could integrate with their new codespaces service to run dev servers for web projects. So it easy available fancy remote terminal. If you’re traveling with just your iPad, this is a nice secure option where you don’t need to have clones of repos locally or any keys saved locally to your device.

knolan2• 4 years ago

I’m probably going to get the 12.9” model. I’m a lecturer and it’ll be very useful for my teaching. Not so much for research where I’m working with stuff like Matlab and OpenFOAM and specialist Windows software for laboratory instruments.

Currently I use my Mac and occasionally sidecar with an old 10.5” iPad Pro so I can annotate my mirrored slides while I go. It works but is awkward. When using a projector over HDMI it’s energy intensive so I need to bring along my Mac’s power brick. Often the display scaling from connecting to the room projector will offset my pencil position, the order you connect stuff seems to matter.

I teach a combination of slides and Jupyter notebooks so I need to verify that everything works as expected.

I could try to use a lightning to HDMI adapter and leave the Mac in my office, but I’m also interested in the LiDAR scanner for some research activities.

I also find the iPad great for bringing along to meetings and labs where you want to sketch stuff out, you can email the result to a student after.

I find it a useful tool for class prep also.

So it’s not a replacement for my laptop, but it’ll help me with a significant part of my day to day activities.

dubya2• 4 years ago

The iPad with pencil is really useful for marking up student papers. I bought one during Covid when everything was being turned in online, but some students still prefer to turn in scans rather than paper.

The downside is that Apple doesn't support user accounts, so I won't use anything that everyone in my family shouldn't have access to. Grading only works because it's easy to log out of Canvas. A lot of the nifty features require you to be logged in with your Apple ID, and I'm just not buying an iPad for every family member who might like to use it sometimes.

knolan2• 4 years ago

I tend to pass my old devices down. My partner has my ancient ‘iPad Air 2’which ddg tells me has an A8X and it is working perfectly for her needs.

runjake• 4 years ago

Lots of iPad hate in the comments. But remember, if nobody wanted them, they wouldn't keep selling as well as they are.

If you have no interest in an iPad, don't buy one. For me, it's not going to replace my general purpose computers any time soon, but its great for reading or carrying around while on the go for short bursts of work (SSH/Mosh with Blink app, RDP with Microsoft Remote Desktop, VNC with Screens, etc).

otikik• 4 years ago

delivering the ultimate combination of portability, versatility, and unbelievable performance

Not with that OS

barbariangrunge2• 4 years ago

I remember I used to read a lot on my tablet before I started using anki to take notes as I went. I miss it, the screens and then light weight are very easy on the eyes and hands. Reading on a laptop isn’t nearly as nice, but you can’t beat the keyboard

rektide• 4 years ago

Thunderbolt!!

As usual I'm envious of this hardware, & wish the rest of us who aren't ok in Apple's tight walled garden had options half as good.

The M2 is a great chip. Yeah, sure, way better than anything else & ridiculously great for a tablet: yes. The display is amazing, as usual. What is new & exciting to me here is Thunderbolt. For so long, "mobile" devices have not had any of the perks of modern computing when it comes to connectivity. Being able to connect to other devices via a modern high speed cable is a kick ass feature that enables all kinds of advanced uses.

With things like Steam Deck, I'm hoping we see a little less strict siloing & see mobile devices start to get competitive in interesting ways. It's a fantastic device: for $400 it blows almost every phone out of the water in almost every conceivable way, wipes the floor & makes mock of what we get. We should have higher expectations, see more cross-market products, but we've been locked into very tight market segments for a long time. One other category busting device I'd cite- really interesting- is the Lenovo Legion Phone, an ultra-serious gaming phone from 2021, which has dual batteries, cooling fans, a 144Hz OLED screen & tip top specs, but most genre-busting of all: a phone with two USB-C ports. Do it. Make your phone a connectable device! Go next level!

I'd love to see a betting pool on what quarter we first see a phone with USB4. Anyone here wanna bet on anytime in 2023? Personally I still think anytime in 2024 is only like 60/40 odds yes. There's little impetus to try, to do better, to make, even though it's so near. Even though the chipspace is tiny. Even though the IP isn't that costly. There's no perceived market, and that belief keeps the market for advancement from occurring.

I love thunderbolt here. The irony is that Apple is one of the most closed ecosystems with the least potential by far to make use of the wide range of nearly-anythings someone could plug in via thunderbolt. Ideally Steam Decks and phones should all be able to make fine use of eGPUs, NICs/infiniband/whatever adapters. They should all support CXL too, but we'll see this, like all the other good stuff, segmented off to servers for 5 years, then desktops for 5 years, before finally it becomes clear & obvious consumers would have great benefit & that it's simpler, more powerful, more flexible to use the good high power specs for these mobile consumer devices too, & we've been shorting ourselves this whole time for no real good reason.

mensetmanusman6• 4 years ago

Question from a gen 1 iPad Pro user (first USB-C iPad):

Is the usb>hdmi output still a disaster?

I noticed a huge downgrade in compatibility from my previous ipads doing presentations with the lightning port.

I even diagnosed an issue where the iPad pro would not output to HDMI using Apple’s official dongle if the HDMI cable was longer than 25 ft. Ha (iphone/lightning adapter worked fine in the same setup).

bootsup• 4 years ago

I'm a student, about to graduate from a BSN nursing program that's online except clinicals. I went from using a Dell laptop to using a Pinebook Pro to mostly using an iPad Air (4th gen) for everything, without making an Apple account (so no installing apps).

The iPad is managed by my uni, who installed the Canvas LMS app. I can read pdfs in the Files app, submit papers written in the Word app, attend class with the Zoom ap. Most of work happens in Safari: watching videos, taking exams, etc. I'm a heavy terminal user, so use a GateOne gateway for ssh access in the browser, allowing me to do most serious work on my user's account on a NetBSD server, working in vim, mutt, sc (spreadsheet), manipulating text with awk, browsing with lynx, managing my website, etc.

A good dock is important. I use the Pinebook Pro usb-c dock with a scroll-wheel 3-button Dell mouse and Model M buckling-spring keyboard. A recent update let bluetooth keep sending music to my stereo when docked. Keyboard shortcuts (like ctrl-a and ctrl-e for moving around the lines of a textfile) are a big part of my workflow. The docked peripherals allow more functionality than the Smart Keyboard folio. I don't like touch screens.

When I graduate, I'll probably fall back to something I like better (my little GPD or old ThinkPad X61), but for school the iPad + folio keyboard + dock + shell account is better than any other single device I have tried.

stevefan1999• 4 years ago

Desktop app and I still see no Logic Pro X on the go. Disappointing

joeman10002• 4 years ago

Going on from all of the comments here about the iPad not being able to replace a computer: it’s true. The I/O is not as good and the OS is lacking in terms of being able to do ‘what I want’ with it. It’s just not a computer. It’s a big phone. With that out of the way, I think it still kicks arse. I grab it when:

+ I just want to watch something (yt, streaming)

+ I want to play some music (great speakers)

+ I want to use a computer in a dangerous place (bath, kitchen bench)

+ I don’t want to lug my laptop around

+ I just want to sketch something

+ Want to read/markup a pdf

+ read a long article on the couch

+ play a game on the bus (Papers Please)

It’s great for these quick sessions. It’s more of a ‘life’ computer, where I don’t have to worry so much about it and it sort of ‘gets out of the way’.

It definitely compliments my laptop but cannot ever replace it.

thirdsun4• 4 years ago

I really love the versatility of my iPad as well but this single use case you mentioned I can't understand:

+ I want to play some music (great speakers)

Yes, the speakers are fine for their size and certainly good enough to listen to a podcast or talk-heavy Youtube video but I couldn't imagine listening to any music on it. Any budget bluetooth speaker for less than 100 bucks or headphones will sound much, much better.

joeman10002• 4 years ago

They’re good enough to just play some music if I’m sitting in the bath or can’t be bothered with a Bluetooth speaker.

seydor• 4 years ago

meta invests in vr goggles, apple invests in high definition. none of them invests to replace the keyboard with someting better , not worse. Computers are not useful without communication, and the slow human-computer bandwidth is the real bottleneck for these devices. Keyboards (and mice) are still better after 4 decades . Meta's wrist device might be the revolution we need

mensetmanusman6• 4 years ago

I want to try the M2 on the iPad for stable diffusion photo editing.

Who will make that app first?

iPad Pro M2

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