Amazon Sidewalk

https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?node=21328123011

by encryptluks2 • 5 years ago

586 657 5 years ago

I think that's great. Unless you have a shitty internet connection with data caps it should not be an issue.

On a more fundamental note, I think it's pretty ridiculous that every apartment in the building I live in runs its own wifi network, screaming at the top of its lungs to be heard in the noise.

Mauricebranagh• 5 years ago

Powerline is your friend

ivanhoe• 5 years ago

Well, having a bathroom in each apartment could also be seen as a total waste of space and water, just as wifi is, but there are good reasons why people prefer having their own reserved resources and privacy - in both cases.

konschubert2• 5 years ago

You can have private networks and multiple access points within the same wifi channel.

imtringued• 5 years ago

You do realize that wifi uses a shared medium and each network only lets one device send at once? If one device is transmitting then all other devices must cease transmitting or they interfere with the radio signals. Having more 5Ghz short range networks is a good thing.

It's the same thing with 5G. More cells, less range.

intricatedetail2• 5 years ago

Should Amazon be paying for use of customer bandwidth?

alfiedotwtf• 5 years ago

Um... you what mate?

BrentOzar• 5 years ago

"when you share your Bridge’s connection with Sidewalk, total monthly data used by Sidewalk, per account, is capped at 500MB"

Given that it's US-only, where most internet plans have pretty high caps, it's hard for me to get upset about this. I would have expected my Echoes alone to use more than that during normal monthly operation, playing music, fetching news, etc.

peteretep3• 5 years ago

I’d expect data caps to be some of the worst in the US. Poorer countries had their internet infrastructure put in much more recently. That said, I also suspect you can’t just look at mean (average) speed to get a feel for that.

dudul• 5 years ago

Data caps have little to do with infrastructure as demonstrated this the past year.

dan12342• 5 years ago

My main concern with sharing like this isn't the bandwidth usage, but what happens when someone abuses the connection (downloading/sharing child porn as an example).

I don't want anything to do with it if there's even the slightest chance I'd end up on the hook for someone else's crimes.

peteretep3• 5 years ago

My understanding is that you aren’t sharing a general connection to the internet, you’re specifically letting Amazon devices tunnel some data back to Amazon’s parent servers. You’d also likely have a pretty good case against Amazon if using their product as directed caused your trouble with the po po

visarga• 5 years ago

Or run a spam bot from your IP and get you in trouble with Google.

hnlmorg2• 5 years ago

My concern is less illegal and more about device manufacturers using this to bypass any internet settings I choose (eg to block ads and trackers).

martin8412• 5 years ago

Most countries don't have the concept of caps at all except for cellular connections(for obvious reasons)

secondcoming• 5 years ago

I have unlimited 5G for £25pm.

hsbauauvhabzb5• 5 years ago

Per there account or per mine? I can rotate MAC address pretty easily

dividedbyzero• 5 years ago

The maximum bandwidth of a Sidewalk Bridge to the Sidewalk server is 80Kbps, which is about 1/40th of the bandwidth used to stream a typical high definition video. Today, when you share your Bridge’s connection with Sidewalk, total monthly data used by Sidewalk, per account, is capped at 500MB, which is equivalent to streaming about 10 minutes of high definition video.

Seems this is not about guest hotspots or the like, but a separate network for Amazon devices.

chiph• 5 years ago

Or if you're a TV maker with an agreement with Amazon to use this network, it's enough to send content-based media identification information - which report on what is shown on the screen (whether broadcast, cable, stream or game).

daniellarusso5• 5 years ago

That is cool. My upload is capped at 768kbps, and with overhead it seems to be around 600kbps.

So, 13% of my upload bandwidth would be consumed.

This is a bit disingenuous on their part, equivocating uploading with downloading.

Does each Echo device consume 80kbps, or is that total?

If I had 10 Echo devices, would my internet connection no longer function and become saturated?

Terretta3• 5 years ago

I recently changed from 1 gbps fiber to mobile hotspot due to a remote work setup, and … blew through 30GB on the iOS 14.5 and MacOS patch day.*

After that, the flagship Unlimited 5G Verizon hotspot is limited to 600 kbps up or down. (Granted, 600 kbps would have been amazing in 1997 so it’s a good reminder of the mess we web devs have made of bandwidth.)

Presumably they’re figuring people with limited bandwidth don’t use Echo/Alexa? Because it doesn’t seem like they figure that from the materials.

* For anyone running a formerly wired household off a physical hotspot device, I suggest enabling (a) Mac Mini or Macbook to cache and reshare Apple updates to the household, or Windows Update Delivery Optimization, (b) turning off Windows, MacOS/iOS and Xbox updates and running the initial update downloads through a T-Mobile Magenta Max plan on family phones (each phone gets 50GB or 150GB per phone for $10 more), then use the cache or local Network Transfer to propogate to other devices. This keeps the physical hotspot dedicated to normal traffic, not slammed by unexpected OS, app, or game updates.

https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/what-is-content-cac...

https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/set-up-content-cach...

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-update-d...

3102602• 5 years ago

That would really only happen if you are in an area with lots of devices connecting to your Echo(s) constantly. In reality, you're gonna see that Sidewalk bandwidth taken sporadically. If you're in a rural area, you'll probably never see any traffic from it.

wilde• 5 years ago

TBH the title is a bit misleading. Amazon plans to use your internet for API calls related to its devices, similar to Apple’s Find My network. I’m more curious about the location sharing bit.

lullibrulli3• 5 years ago

sometimes I would love to see an A/B test on HN: swap Amazon and Apple here, call it "Find my Homepod" and see the reactions.

ceejayoz2• 5 years ago

Sure. Same reasons “Jeffrey Dahmer invited me for dinner” hits differently than “Mum invited me for dinner”.

The two companies have a different track record on privacy.

KingOfCoders2• 5 years ago

Why an A/B test? Everything Apple and Tesla does is brilliant, everything anyone else does is evil. Thank me later.

Putting that in the HN FAQ would prevent new users losing karma points.

paul_f• 5 years ago

It's not limited to Amazon devices

Device manufacturers interested in creating devices that work with Amazon Sidewalk can view more information on the Sidewalk Developer Console.

luma2• 5 years ago

Nor is Find My limited to Apple devices. I think the analogy holds water.

diveanon• 5 years ago

I would say this is a privacy concern, but they are already echo customers.

selfhoster11• 5 years ago

Two privacy vulnerabilities are worse than one. If I buy an Echo, I may well be aware what I'm getting into and accept the risk of an always-on voice assistant, but do not want the additional risk of that assistant sharing my Internet connection.

Havoc2• 5 years ago

I wouldn't mind opening up even higher b/w wifi. I've got way more than needed so seed linux distros all day long anyway

...however if someone does something illegal with it that'll still trace back to my IP and police will kick down my door, correct?

vbezhenar2• 5 years ago

Use Tor to proxy those connections.

ben_w• 5 years ago

To proxy someone else’s use of your own network, use which you (generic ‘you’) may not know is happening in the first place because not everyone reads Hacker News or the EULA?

Nextgrid• 5 years ago

however if someone does something illegal with it that'll still trace back to my IP and police will kick down my door, correct?

This is a big concern with all the major "public WIFI" systems like this one and others such as Comcast's Xfinity WiFi and it's pretty much never actually true.

For actual Wi-Fi provided by an ISP, the public network will usually come out of a completely different IP (your modem will internally have 2 IPs, or tunnel the public network's traffic straight into the ISP's infrastructure and it will only talk to the public internet from there with a different IP).

For this one, I'm not sure if this is even IP-based at all and allows access to the internet. Seems like all it allows is to talk to Amazon (using some proprietary protocol) and offers no access to the outside internet anyway.

Havoc2• 5 years ago

Seems like all it allows is to talk to Amazon (using some proprietary protocol)

That seems mostly OK then...

em-bee• 5 years ago

on the contrary, if all the devices do that, then you have plausible deniability. they can no longer pin anything on you because it could be a neighbor or even someone out on the street.

the details depend on the country i guess, but at least in some countries there needs to be evidence that it was you before they can do anything.

there was a case where someone was approached for sharing movies. as soon as the authorities found out that this was an airbnb they backed off because they could no longer pin the act on the owner.

kevingadd• 5 years ago

Plausible deniability doesn't actually mean anything unless your highly-paid lawyer (you're rich, right?) can convince the judge. The scenario where some random stranger does an illegal thing on your network by hijacking Amazon's network is a bit far-fetched compared to the most common obvious case (you did it), so you'll have to work hard to convince them that's the actual explanation.

Ayesh• 5 years ago

I suppose the data transfers would be just API calls back and forth, as opposed to user content.

rubatuga• 5 years ago

Please don’t support Amazon from creating another network-effect product that creates vendor lock-in, and privacy issues. Convenience should not be the end-all goal, as the ad blatantly states, but instead interoperability and open-protocols.

prox3• 5 years ago

Convenience is way too alluring for the general public I am afraid. But I completely agree.

yunohn2• 5 years ago

Convenience is way too alluring for the general public

Despite being technically-savvy, and ready to hack away at systems for max configuration; I too prefer convenience for a lot of things. That’s the magic of modern life, you can save time on so many “complicated” things.

Disclaimer: I don’t use Amazon Echo specifically.

petee• 5 years ago

I'd wager that at face value most of the public wouldn't want their neighbors sharing internet, if only for the liability risk (who wants to find out the hard way their neighbors kid was downloading kiddie porn)

schwinn140• 5 years ago

I dont know how i feel about this comment. It's almost as if there's the perception that the general public are a bunch of robots/sheep incapable of making their own decisions. I can sympathize with that perspective but need to draw the line and believe that people have a choice. Perhaps I'm being too naive.

If we look beyond Amazon, Apple has basically built their entire business model under the guise of "convenience." It's so convenient that you never will leave their ecosystem. If/when you attempt to leave, they'll make it so painful that you'll give up in frustration.

KingOfCoders2• 5 years ago

Threw out all Echos some years ago. Tired of Alexa not understanding what I wanted.

niklasrde• 5 years ago

"Alexa, enable privacy" - "I'm sorry Dave, I am afraid I can't do that"

rolandr• 5 years ago

I generally agree, but on the other hand, from a consumer perspective IoT devices have and continue to be particularly inconvenient. After 15 or so years of IoT devices, what do we have that resembles interoperability or open protocols? Maybe Zigbee? Instead, it seems that each IoT device is a one-off effort by a very small team, and that networking is the part where you cross your fingers, close your eyes, and hold your nose throughout the processes of connecting and diagnosing connectivity issues.

daniellarusso5• 5 years ago

I thought you were describing Bluetooth for a moment.

jiofih5• 5 years ago

Why isn’t WPS common in IoT? It should solve the majority of cases for the home.

oflannabhra• 5 years ago

Thread and CHiP

kristofferR• 5 years ago

After 15 or so years of IoT devices, what do we have that resembles interoperability or open protocols?

Thread is what you are talking about. It's awesome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_(network_protocol)

pkulak• 5 years ago

There are a few companies that have "closed" systems that are nonetheless extremely easy to integrate into something like Home Assistant, or anything else. Lutron, for example, exposes a Telnet port on their (pro) hub that you can connect to and issue plain text commands. Sure, open standards are always better, but I'll take documented local control as a pretty close second.

hsbauauvhabzb5• 5 years ago

Lol u kidding bro I need to check my IG notifications!1

notyourwork4• 5 years ago

Convenience should not be the end-all goal

For who? Even as a tech savvy person, that is ALL I want. I used to tinker around with home projects, nowadays I want things that work with no fuss. I don't want to play IT support desk for my family, I want their stuff to work.

Convenience is exactly what people want who don't understand technology but want to use it for benefit.

danuker4• 5 years ago

I like some privacy to go with the convenience. I want to watch TV, not the other way round.

waserwill• 5 years ago

Convenience isn't a goal, per se. It's a by-product of sorts. When things work and are intuitive, they're very convenient. Economically, it can be useful to design many things this way.

A good doorknob is ready-at-hand: it's just about invisible to me until it breaks and, suddenly, it's present and bright in my mind. I've been in the woods and become unsafe: everything around becomes suddenly, viscerally present. That's not a feeling I want often. But individual things I attend to (like watching what I eat or trying to ID a bird by its song) make the world much more colorful, and make me feel more a part of it. Plus, as the comments here suggest, immediate convenience can lead to downstream perils (e.g. in terms of data collection).

podgaj• 5 years ago

Hi, where Amazon, providing services no one asked for and stretching our Internet security even thinner!

tudorw2• 5 years ago

How about some kind of 'proof of sharing' crypto credit system? I like the idea of a shared mesh, I am not keen on this being proprietary.

RyanHamilton• 5 years ago

There are a few companies trying it, I watched a podcast where one developer in New York had this one: https://www.helium.com/

tudorw2• 5 years ago

Thanks, surprised to see so many downvotes on an idea, I expect more of HN.

dangerface2• 5 years ago

I love how insidious Amazon are with their products, get the hardware into their homes then just change what it does to what you want. What you didn't read the EULA in the last update?

jelling• 5 years ago

The latest Firestick software update is a great example of this. The new UI/UX aggressively de-prioritizes apps from content producers in favor of a "feed" that lets them push their own content and intermediate content producers from their customers. They even go as far as to deliberately hide your saved items/watch next items three levels deep in a menu.

tssva2• 5 years ago

They are not alone in this. Google has switched their UI/UX in the same manner. I haven't used Apple TV in a few years but when I last did they were headed in the same direction. Roku is likely not far behind in doing the same.

daniellarusso5• 5 years ago

Even worse, I bought a 4k Firestick about a month ago to replace an aging first-gen Firestick.

I had other things come up and did not unbox it yet.

After the first week, I have begun to receive emails from Amazon urging me to setup the Firestick, at least once per week.

This is the opposite of motivating, Amazon.

WarOnPrivacy4• 5 years ago

Amazon is doing the right thing to ensure a healthy piracy ecosystem

Traster• 5 years ago

This is one of the reasons why I've always been fascinated by people who claim Amazon has a customer focus. It is impossible to get what you awant from Amazon. If you go to Amazon they are going to make sure you get what they want to give you. You're going to watch the content they make, buy the white label goods they produce and click the adverts they put in front of you. It is the most customer hostile company I've ever seen.

amelius3• 5 years ago

The definition of a Trojan horse, except you had to pay for it.

drivers99• 5 years ago

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking lately about the benefits of running software you create on your own (for example a forth kernel is conceptually easy to write and build from there) because of how it contrasts your own wishes for what you want your devices to do vs the company or person whose software you merely use, especially when automatic updates are involved. (Also applies to javascript on web pages vs. plain data/documents which you can view with your own software or at least software that works the way you want it to.)

dangerface2• 5 years ago

Absolutely I always seen open source projects as a nice advantage but now I am starting to realise open source is a necessity. If I have access to the code and I hate an update I can roll back or change it. The past 10 years its felt like any new tech you have to just accept as your new over lord or exclude yourself from our technological society, theres no middle ground.

canada_dry• 5 years ago

Amazon's just keeping up with the Jones. I.e. when I updated Win10 recently it very un-helpfully installed some new videoconferencing app that can't easily be removed. The only helpful advice from MS is how to hide the app from the taskbar so you no longer notice its there. Such BS!!

bijant• 5 years ago

This is a blatant attempt at using their market power to gain a dominant position in IoT connectivity by creating a parallel Network where Net Neutrality does not apply. If this succeeds, only Amazon approved devices will be allowed on this global Network connecting only to aws provided services thereby establishing a monopoly on non-cellular IoT connectivity. After Apples recent move in the same direction with their „find my“ mesh network of apple devices being used to introduce a whole new mode of operation to support their Air Tags the Question of Net Neutrality has to be extended from just ISPs to Dominant Platforms that have the ability to create derivative Mesh-Networks.

contravariant• 5 years ago

I can't help but feel that this is only a net neutrality issue because we've already given up on letting people freely choose what kind of mesh-networks (if any) their devices get to participate in.

fastball4• 5 years ago

I'm not sure I see how the customer is hurt in this case (or in the case of Apple's AirTags)?

ehnto• 5 years ago

The customer isn't the last say in what is good for a society or economy, if Amazon puts a moat around IoT that's thousands of companies, products, employees, and unknown innovation all either gone completely or sucked up into Amazon.

jiofih5• 5 years ago

I’m not sure a parallel can be drawn to the Find My network. That one is purely designed for location tracking in an anonymous way, and does not have the ability to transfer data between devices or any other type of tracking.

jonatanheyman• 5 years ago

Not yet, but it could have in a future generation, or even a future firmware update.

spamalot1592• 5 years ago

You're right but it is pushing their advantage from the phone sector onto another and forcing out their competition in Tile. That sounds to me like monopolistic activity.

tootie2• 5 years ago

These are private LANs. They don't own a public network. It will piggyback on your home ISP. I'm pretty sure this is just to simplify IoT network discovery

pjerem• 5 years ago

It will piggyback on any Echo (or compatible product) owner's ISP.

3102602• 5 years ago

There won't be a monopoly on non-cellular IoT connectivity though. There are a ridiculous number of IoT networks out there whether it's Sigfox or some other LoRaWAN solution and more are being built by the day.

vdddv• 5 years ago

reminds me of fon.com

livinginfear• 5 years ago

I would be curious to know what kind of consumer response Amazon anticipates from this. Are consumer privacy, security and freedom factors that were considered in Amazon's decision making process when developing this product?

I know it's not in the spirit of discussion on Hacker News, however I feel I must just add the rhetorical remark: "Is everyone else concerned yet?"

londons_explore2• 5 years ago

It's a real shame that human selfishness means everyone has to have their own mini WiFi point rather than all sharing.

I wish the 2.4Ghz band had some kind of "at least half the bandwidth of any network connection over 2.4Ghz must be available for use by any member of the public, for free".

That would effectively be the licensing cost for your use of the WiFi band - you use up bandwidth in 2.4Ghz, but provide for free bandwidth to the internet for other people to use.

intricatedetail2• 5 years ago

The problem is that when you share your internet with a neighbour partaking in illegal activities, you may get yourself in trouble.

nathancahill3• 5 years ago

Not true, see the link in my sibling comment.

syshum• 5 years ago

That problem is of our own making by giving the government the power to assume IP Location == Probable cause.

That problem is easily solved (in the US at least) by enacting more stringent 4th amendment protections for people and more properly limiting the governments police powers. This should be done anyway regardless of the proposed suggestions about public wifi

nathancahill3• 5 years ago

I ran an OpenWireless guest network for a while when I lived in Colorado with no adverse effects. https://www.eff.org/pages/openwirelessorg

avh022• 5 years ago

Yeah but wifi's not only used for the internet - would've exactly want everybody accessing everybody's stuff (printers, webcams, NAS, etc)

Obviously there are solutions to that but a layperson won't manage it

londons_explore2• 5 years ago

Well if the law required each AP provide half the bandwidth for public use, you can bet every AP would have firewalling built in and a public/private split.

Just like the LTE network typically has firewalling between users, and stories of peoples phones being hacked via LTE are very rare.

peteretep3• 5 years ago

Mods: be good to get the title changed to something less wildly misleading

112358132134552• 5 years ago

I'm using my neighbor's wifi (with his consent). It feels silly that every apartment in a building has its own wifi, I can receive at least 8 wifi networks from my laptop

eertami• 5 years ago

There are very legitimate reasons for not sharing networks, eg: security, not having latency/throughput issues when others are using the network.

And personally I would need a wired connection anyway, so having a wifi network built in to the network switch isn't really a big deal, since the fiber is to the apartment.

bitlevel4• 5 years ago

I can already see how this plays out...

Police/Authority: You used the internet to access XXX site You: No, it was the other guy using the wireless...

teachingassist• 5 years ago

There are also very legit reasons for sharing networks - the cost of sharing a connection is much less than everyone having their own connection.

Two community-owned wifi connections are more reliable than one individually-owned cabled connection.

ISPs have lobbied for everyone to stop sharing their own connections by over-stating the risks (rather than mitigating them), enabling password protection by default, and allowing risk to the owner to be encoded in law.

And yet, ISPs are now taking some part of each connection for themselves. That's a problem.

We could instead share our connections in a community-owned way.

112358132134552• 5 years ago

Yes I know, my father is a doctor, and he's required to own his own and private internet access. But in general, vast majority of cases we don't have those requirements, nor need exceptional speed

mercora• 5 years ago

i feel the same and would like to see buildings get connected as a whole paid by part of the utility billing or similar. something akin to how central heating is paid for.

adam0c2• 5 years ago

Because shared networks have never been a security issue...

squarefoot• 5 years ago

So, if I buy a so called Smart-TV (not because I like it but because traditional ones are getting harder to find) but don't set up it on my home network so it can't phone home, it could scan around anyway and find other open devices more than willing to participate in my personal data exfiltration? If the Amazon project succeeds, I would expect in a few months most home devices manufacturers, to partner to implement it so they have a way to circumvent users choices.

choeger3• 5 years ago

This.

That move is just one step further in removing control. They now have sealed devices that can have who knows what functions but are confined to the network. Next step is to have a concealed upstream. After that they will somehow get a legal mandate to force such devices on you (like the EU did with cars). Maybe they will use smoke detectors or "emergency" services. In the end, this is exactly like in 1984.

bregma• 5 years ago

Less 1984 and more Fahrenheit 451. There is no central authority imposing this to exert control on the masses: consumers are imposing it on themselves willingly and industry is just giving them what they want. Juvenal redux.

Clewza313• 5 years ago

So armed Amazon goons kicking down your door and bringing you to the dungeons of the Ministry of Customer Obsession to be tortured with fake cattle prod knockoffs?

me_me_me• 5 years ago

Time to invest in companies producing faraday's cages for houses.

amyjess• 5 years ago

The fact that you can say this without being hauled off to Room 101 and tortured until you recant proves that this is in fact not exactly like 1984.

walrus01• 5 years ago

Coming soon, YouTube video guides on how to locate the rf ICs on the motherboard of your smart tv, and take a Dremel cutting disk to the section of the PCB that has the copper traces for the antenna.

Haemm0r• 5 years ago

Don't forget to cut the HDMI Cable too :)

adreamingsoul4• 5 years ago

Most have a dedicated WiFi board that is separate from everything else.

PurpleFoxy• 5 years ago

And then the tv bricks when it can’t access the network for 10 days.

bluesquared• 5 years ago

I know you jest, but a simple x-acto knife will usually do the trick

satori993• 5 years ago

There is nothing stopping TV manufacturers from putting a 3/4G modem in their products. The billing is likely insignificant compared to the value of the data they can exfiltrate.

hsbauauvhabzb5• 5 years ago

Wasn’t the entire point of 5G to reduce the cost so that this dystopian ‘internet of phone home day bypassing all your security controls’?

adreamingsoul4• 5 years ago

Well there is a cost and the challenge of having to deal with all the various carriers across the world. Wifi is mostly universal.

amelius3• 5 years ago

Use tinfoil wallpaper.

mikro2nd• 5 years ago

No need... the builder used tinfoil-based insulation when they built my house.

Phurist• 5 years ago

But then give it a network.. just no public internet access :)

hsbauauvhabzb5• 5 years ago

Shhh the first rule of wifi black holes is that you don’t talk about wifi black holes.

dismalpedigree• 5 years ago

I tried that on my LG tv. The result was a 60 second timeout before I could use the tv when turning it on. I ended up figuring out how to factory reset it and then never set up the wifi. No firmware update, but I don’t care since I only want a dumb monitor.

adreamingsoul4• 5 years ago

“Smart devices” have been trying to phone home for awhile now. I don’t have any stats or research to cite, but my own evidence from reverse-engineering TVs and other IOT devices.

I suspect the business motivation by Amazon is to become the “middleman” between these devices and the manufacture.

pb772• 5 years ago

Amazon is known to sell the ring data, i suspect this could give amazon more data that they can sell and make more money. It is almost like a mesh tracking in a neighborhood if this is enabled.

austincheney2• 5 years ago

My answer is a home projector. It’s not 4K but it’s cheap and puts out a great display. It’s also just a projector without any applications or network access.

avh022• 5 years ago

This is the route i went (though admittedly mostly by accident), unfortunately do have a "smart AV receiver/amp" but the functionality there's too convenient for me to kill all networking.

If i had to buy a TV now I'd avoid a smart one like the plague.

polskibus• 5 years ago

4K projectors are getting cheaper, although some reviews doubt the quality improvement.

smackeyacky3• 5 years ago

Yeah but the instant you plug in a chromecast to watch netflix or disney+ they got you. Blu rays are drying up at an alarming rate, at least it feels that way.

g00gler• 5 years ago

I just got a 65” UHD sceptre brand TV with no smart features at Walmart for $329.

It’s pretty great that such a desirable feature is at the bottom of the barrel

Loughla4• 5 years ago

100%. We just got a sceptre from walmart. Stupid big for the price, great picture, and did I mention the low price. Oh, and not one smart feature; just television with various inputs.

I haven't TV shopped in literal decades. It astounded me that there was (a) a market for more advertising on your television via smart features, and (b) seemingly low-end models are the only ones that are available as 'dumb'. Other manufacturers have regular tv's, but they are never available, and cost as much as the smart versions. The whole thing is weird.

t0mbstone• 5 years ago

Sceptre picture quality was pretty shit though, last time I checked...

vhanda• 5 years ago

Maybe the future is having some kind of Faraday cage around your devices.

Or maybe even around the house. This might be possible in apartments.

lifeisstillgood• 5 years ago

A faraday cage around a TV kind of defeats the point. Although it would improve some films a great deal :-)

I think this has to get sorted out in the wash with regulation. If you collect data about someone, it needs to be treated at HIPPAA levels of paranoia. That just makes so much of this rubbish go away.

It might increase the costs of TVs. Certainly there are many areas of global markets that have incredible deep tech that just are not seeing expected market pricing.

(Off topic but eye-tests. In the UK there are branches dedicated to performing a medical test by post-graduate trained operators, for token cost, just so they can upsell me on expensive frames. I mean I would rather pay for the eye test and buy online.)

mgr862• 5 years ago

Edit: I was wrong. Please disregard this comment. Someone links the comment below. And the sub thread that I remember being removed appears to still be present.

——

I commented the other week about enjoying my LG oled smart tv. Someone mentioned what about the evesdropping. (Which I’m aware of) and it started a small thread of people discussing that. These replies were removed about 24-48 hours later. I found it odd the comments about smart TVs evesdropping were removed. So I’m commenting to bookmark this, and see if this discussion is also removed.

jagged-chisel• 5 years ago

Removed from HN? I have some doubts. It’s not impossible but I don’t think HN’s reputation would survive if they’re removing comments in service to … anyone else.

Edit: this[1] looks like what you’re talking about. Has anything been removed (by HN) from this conversation?

1 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26996739

beshrkayali• 5 years ago

I run pihole on my network. I monitored requests made from my tv and blocked the ones to LG one by one.

throwamon• 5 years ago

It's much more likely it was removed for some unrelated reason (flamewar, spam, or just a mistake - btw you can email the mods if you think it was a mistake, it seems they're very responsive)

HN is full of discussions on these matters and I've never seen them get removed.

And you can always use Archive.org's Wayback Machine to periodically save the page.

ulzeraj3• 5 years ago

IMO. There should be a market for:

- Dumb panels (not monitors). Perhaps stripped down recycled smart tvs.

- Smart tvs but with user replaceable firmware. Think OpenWRT for TVs. Maybe the same guy who does the dumb panels could sell those but with a raspberry pi in place of the logic board.

Of course a monitor solves these issues but these are normally smaller and more expensive.

danpalmer5• 5 years ago

"Dumb TVs" would cost more. It's hard to market something that costs more and has what most people would perceive to be fewer features.

They would cost more because post-sale content sales and advertising generate revenue for TV manufacturers, which they use to subsidise the device sale price, because it's such a competitive, low-margin, market.

lucioperca• 5 years ago

Privacy paradox at work.

sithadmin• 5 years ago

There is a huge market for 'dumb panels', under the moniker of 'digital signage'. Nearly every major TV vendor has 'dumb' displays SKUs on offer in many different configs. The only problem is that they aren't always easy to get one's hand on, as they usually are sold through b2b channels instead of consumer-facing retail outlets.

notyourday3• 5 years ago

https://www.sceptre.com/ has a nice selection of dumb TVs at reasonable prices

robin_reala• 5 years ago

There’s a Samsung firmware hacking community: https://forum.samygo.tv/

cosmojg• 5 years ago

Maybe finding a line of televisions we could reliably lobotomize would work in the short term (a la Librebooted ThinkPads).

sen• 5 years ago

I replaced my TV with an LG 43” 4K monitor which cost AUD$700 (similar price to a TV of the same brand/size here). It’s not quite the 50” my TV was but it’s big enough for my purposes.

It has 4 HDMI inputs and zero smart features. Turns on in under a second, etc. Before that I had a TV that required almost a full minute to start up before I could change AV input or change channel or do anything because it had to load it’s bloated smart crap.

pabs3• 5 years ago

Some years ago SamyGO was started towards replacing TV firmware, not sure how far they got though:

https://www.samygo.tv/

Since most TVs probably run Linux it probably isn't hard, but will have the usual problems of non-mainline drivers, blobs etc.

ff317• 5 years ago

I've been buying "Sceptre" -brand LCD TVs for use around the house the past several years. They're "dumb" with just a basic remote and basic settings firmware like TVs from a decade or two ago, and they tend to be reasonably priced, and of reasonable quality. Plug a streaming stick or your RPi in the back for your choice of $Streaming_TV service. They now also make units with Android TV built in, but so far they're still making non-smart models as well!

jmrm2• 5 years ago

I don't know about OLED and other fancy panels (like Micro LED, QLED, etc.), but for common LCD panels there are plenty of controller available to use them, even with 4K resolution [1]. And panels aren't difficult to find because they are used to repair other television. The problem here is to protect it about dust and dirt, also not having a convenient and easy to use user interface.

IMO the best middle point is buying a LG Smart TV. They have Amazon Prime, Amazon Alexa, Netflix, and other platform installed, but IIRC you can uninstall this apps and you can't use them until you accept the terms and conditions. If you don't accept them you shouldn't worry about them.

I haven't used Wireshark to know if that apps use the network even without using them, but at least isn't the same to some Samsung TV that insert ads in the menus when your TV is connected to the Internet.

[1] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33001887592.html

peatmoss• 5 years ago

In addition to the privacy benefits, you could potentially build a controller that actually turns on Really Fast. Modern smart TVs just feel slow in every way.

jadbox• 5 years ago

"Smart tvs but with user replaceable firmware" THIS, I've never thought about it before, but I'd definitely pay extra for a TV that has a open firmware for users to replace.

dividuum2• 5 years ago

Here's a company that sells dumb panels with a HDMI input and Pi Compute Module attached to them: https://www.distec.de/en/products/monitor-solutions/iot-moni...

tarkin2• 5 years ago

I read the wikipedia page on shellcodes a few days ago.

It said the first thing they do is find a way of phoning home.

nemacol• 5 years ago

I had assumed with was happening with Comcast's wifi option already. Manufacturers just have to have credentials and someone nearby to have a comcast network device.

teekert3• 5 years ago

I am starting a startup which builds (stylish) Faraday cages for household appliances!

bredren4• 5 years ago

I know Apple has rejected offering a TV panel, but to offer continuity of privacy into this domain I suspect they still may need to.

pb772• 5 years ago

I have a smart tv but never signed into my wifi from it, does it still have privacy issues. I use firestick to access netflix etc.

I assume the next versions of the tvs internet connection may be mandatory for it to work.

aasasd• 5 years ago

I think I've already heard of TVs connecting to the available open wifi networks.

vineyardmike5• 5 years ago

Any examples? I recall HN convos discussing this as an eventuality but no examples yet.

justapassenger• 5 years ago

If data from TVs is so valuable, manufacturers will just include 5G modem and phone home directly.

This isn’t tech problem. This is legal and regulatory issue.

ilikepi2• 5 years ago

This is totally plausible and I imagine some manufacturers will try it. Alternatively they can simply make the TV not work unless it has been connected to WiFi...I believe there may already be some sets that do this.

neop1x• 5 years ago

Have a look at big "business monitors" like NEC E657Q [1]. I was able to find some 55, 65, 75" 4K monitors without smart functions. It is probably not THAT bad after all...

[1] https://www.nec-display.com/ap/en_display/e657q/index.html

jordz• 5 years ago

"Amazon does not charge any fees to join Amazon Sidewalk"

Not to the end customer anyway. To organizations and developers building on top of the APIs...

Completely against this idea though its a shame its not... "Get paid for hosting a network using the devices you purchase from us"*

Lastly, it is a cost albeit negligible to the end user who installs the device (power, bandwidth, etc).

*I know it wouldn't amount to anything but its a interesting way to think about it.

hnlmorg2• 5 years ago

Honestly, the end user should be subsidised for hosting this feature. The fact that Amazon are able to spin this as "we're giving this to you for free" shows how far the tech industry has gone in tricking it's consumers into thinking that they're getting something for nothing.

SamuelAdams• 5 years ago

So when I stand up a botnet controlled by a CnC server its illegal but when Amazon does it its "for the investors". Ffs

FartyMcFarter2• 5 years ago

helps devices like Amazon Echo devices, Ring Security Cams, outdoor lights, motion sensors, and Tile trackers work better at home and beyond the front door.

I hope they inform their customers that filming and recording public spots or other people's houses in Europe requires advertising the presence of CCTV and adhering to data protection laws.

I have a feeling that in the coming years the number of neighbours suing each other for this kind of thing will become more prevalent.

Spare_account2• 5 years ago

I hope they inform their customers that filming and recording public spots or other people's houses in Europe requires advertising the presence of CCTV and adhering to data protection laws.

I live in the EU and have a camera on the front of my garage, pointing at the street and partially covering my opposite neighbour's house. I'd like to understand more about which rules I need to adhere to, I was unaware of this. Can you point me towards some resources on the subject?

FartyMcFarter2• 5 years ago

Here are a few links as a starting point:

https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters/domestic-cctv-systems-g...

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e5486933-1806...

https://www.netatmo.com/en-gb/guides/security/burglary/regul...

dd_roger• 5 years ago

It's plain illegal in Switzerland regardless of CCTV signs. Even dashcams are in a gray area where it should technically be illegal but it has never been enforced before a court as far as I know (dashcam are extremely rare here anyway). I wonder how it works for Tesla cars that record their surrounding when parked, maybe they don't have that feature here. Surveillance of public areas is only permited with very good reasons (e.g protecting outdoor ATMs) and must be restricted at the minimum required to serve its purpose.

hownottowrite• 5 years ago

“Preserving customer privacy and security is foundational to how we’ve built Amazon Sidewalk.“

I love that this is the opening line in two back to back FAQ entries. I'm going to make Alexa read it to me for full effect.

Zenst• 5 years ago

Probably best as I'm sure many will have the word "backdoor" echoing throughout my head reading all that.

mschuster91• 5 years ago

Good god this title editorializing is atrocious. For those who don't read the articles and only go for the comments... Amazon plans to use Echo devices as some sort of local, extremely low-bandwidth (80 Kbps) gateway for IoT communication. Not some sort of "internet sharing" in a "this is a wifi hotspot" way.

mrweasel• 5 years ago

Are the ISPs actually okay with this? Ideally Amazon would check who your ISP is and then check if the ISP will allow this type of usage, before just enabling it.

If properly protected I don't see the issue, but it really needs to be opt in. The main issue from my point of view is that companies like Amazon automatically assume that a customer is okay with this, without knowing anything about pricing, security requirement and stability of the customers internet connection.

Tepix• 5 years ago

How is this different from having a wifi access point?

fogihujy• 5 years ago

I can imagine there's more than one ISP who'd have something to say about open wifi networks.

signal11• 5 years ago

BT, the UK’s largest ISP, has this feature (Wi-fi sharing on a separate network) built into the routers or “hubs” it supplies, and on by default.

The benefit for people is that they can get Wi-fi in many places — free for BT customers, and a small fee for others. Note that anonymous access isn’t allowed.

Look for “hub hotspots” here: https://www.btwifi.com/find/

For other ISPs who don’t offer something like this, I don’t think they can stop their customers, the main question around customers offering free Wi-fi to others would focus around liability, I think. Who’s responsible if people do naughty things using your Wi-fi? And will Amazon’s solution help identify a potential bad actor?

45ure• 5 years ago

The benefit for people is that they can get Wi-fi in many places — free for BT customers, and a small fee for others.

I subscribed to a BT Openreach broadband product, a few years ago, in personal capacity. The service you are describing is called BT WiFi, after being rebranded. For residential customers, it is enabled by default i.e. an opt-out feature, as you have noted. Once you manage to find a way to disable it, you lose the 'benefits'. I found the feature to be extremely disconcerting, especially relating to a pattern of random parked vehicles and people loitering around residential premises at various times of the day, essentially to leech bandwidth off my connection.

It would seem that the ISP supplied router (HH6) was designed to create a splintered guest/public WiFi over a VPN. Although the matter of anonymity and liability was of great concern. However, I did not pursue it any further, due to numerous red flags, relating to degradation in QoS and security; latency, contention, poor signal, connection logs with dubious entries etc. It felt prudent to cut loose, rather than justify any perceived benefits.

To stay on the point, I am not sure if the Sidewalk branding will travel well long-term, might as well drop the facade and call it: Amazon Shodan.

https://fon.com/bt-wifi-with-fon-rebranding/

throwaway36994• 5 years ago

On the other hand, putting more a ton of pressure on the ancient broadband infrastructure is great. It's one of the few forcing functions we have to push ISPs into actually improving their service.

itsasecretinc• 5 years ago

free wifi right on

maxehmookau• 5 years ago

Hell. No.

mellosouls• 5 years ago

I've flagged this on two counts (I don't like flagging stuff):

1. The website linked is just an advert.

2. The title is completely editorialised, regardless.

Not that I think it should be taken down, now there's discussion but it seems poor form as a submission especially on the title.

christiansakai• 5 years ago

Do you want another security disaster? Because this is how you get another security disaster.

softwaredoug• 5 years ago

Xfinity routers seem to do this. I wonder how many of my less technical neighbors realize I can get on their internet?

etskinner• 5 years ago

A key difference seems to be that Xfinity/Comcast doesn't count that usage against your bandwidth cap and your monthly data cap. Whereas Apple's AirTags and Amazon Sidewalk use your gateway, your ISPs or mobile data providers will charge your for it and/or count it against your caps

tmearnest• 5 years ago

If there’s a way to filter out the analytics traffic and connections routed through the Echo after the router but before the connection to the modem/ont, this would be a good opportunity to build a simple device which blackholes this traffic. I’m thinking of a device that you simply connect between your home router and the connection to the isp. We all here can probably figure out a technical solution that works for us, but is not easy for the average person. I’m imagining a turn key device for the average person who is concerned with their privacy and doesn’t want the whole world using their internet connection.

pydry• 5 years ago

This will probably end up breaking the device.

zekrioca2• 5 years ago

Probably. Yet, the solution parent pointed out as an opportunity will -- probably -- try everything not to.

mytailorisrich2• 5 years ago

Here in the UK I know that at least BT broadband modems set up a public Wifi, which is segregated from you own but uses you VDSL link for backhaul.

It looks like this is the same thing.

bitlevel4• 5 years ago

Sadly not the same thing. This is using bandwidth from YOUR network.

And besides, you can disable the BT 'sharing' capability. May not be so easy with an Echo in the house...

mytailorisrich2• 5 years ago

Sadly not the same thing. This is using bandwidth from YOUR network.

Ah yes, this is from the Echo so the traffic will go over your own Wifi.

BT also uses your bandwidth but it is the one over VDSL.

chaz6• 5 years ago

This is just the beginning of more pervasive tracking. If my neighbours both have echos, it will be a lot more likely that any products I have can be tracked. As more and more products have cheap lower power tags, even something as cheap as a tin of beans can ultimately tracked.

xyst• 5 years ago

This looks like a disaster, and looks like a hackers wet dream. Wouldn't be too hard to hack an Echo or another device and essentially create your own portable access point and piggyback off of another persons connection.

HuangYuSan• 5 years ago

you'll have to pay Amazon though

angry_octet4• 5 years ago

With Apple it's called FindMy, Amazon Sidewalk should be christened FindHer: the cost effective solution for spyware integrators, where liability for misconduct is dispersed down to tiny fly by night stalker ware companies.

And FindThem Gov will be a nice money spinner too.

hasmanean• 5 years ago

If you shared your bandwidth with 8 neighbours, you’d have 8x the peak bandwidth.

Instead of 100Mbps you’d have 100MBps.

quotha• 5 years ago

What a colossal shitstorm.

whiddershins• 5 years ago

I see a lot of legitimate concerns being voiced here about this being a propriety network.

It’s also a massive innovation, almost, wow the future is so cool kind of innovation.

Why this reaction to focus on all the nightmare scenarios instead of a sense of appreciation, awe even, that a new thing has been invented and is being deployed?

This is how we move technology forward. Sometimes it is open source, but often it is driven by a large company.

I would love it if the internet in general was more mesh. I would love it if my internet provider going down when I’m out of town didn’t equal my security system being rendered useless.

I think it’s possible to keep an eye on the dystopian nightmare scenarios without being knee jerk anti-progress.

amelius3• 5 years ago

Just give me the technology without all the anti-consumer cruft that companies love to bundle it with.

1vuio0pswjnm7• 5 years ago

Back in the early 1990's, when consumers began setting up the first "home LANs" (wired), who would have imagined that one day most, maybe even all (yikes), of the computers on those networks would be computers that are remotely controlled by third parties. I must admit I never saw this coming.

headmelted2• 5 years ago

BT has been doing something similar to their customers in the UK for many years, except with general purpose Wi-Fi (i.e. sharing your home broadband on a second network to third parties that walk by your house for a fee).

Joe Public don’t care as long as the Netflix works, but he probably doesn’t know either.

detritus• 5 years ago

Yeah, I thought they'd stopped doing this, but it appears they've simply removed the option to disable it from the admin screen, presumably keeping it on in the background.

Christ, I loathe BT.

- ed

turns out you can turn it off, but have to log into your BT account, rather than direct from the router.

headmelted2• 5 years ago

Unless it errors out on the website, and customer support give you the run around until you go away, because why else make you jump through so many hoops?

They’re utterly horrid, but that’s monopolies for you.

Hopefully we can get Virgin in my area someday.

Avamander2• 5 years ago

I wonder how this dragnet could be disrupted.

larrydag• 5 years ago

This leads to a question. How many other smart device things have a created a mesh network without the owner knowing? Is there a way to detect such networks? I'm actually giving Amazon a break here because at least they are announcing it.

Kalium• 5 years ago

You can always scan your local radio spectrum. Wifi devices generally operate on known and documented frequencies.

tailspin2019• 5 years ago

I really, utterly and completely, fucking hate this.

ascar• 5 years ago

Is there some region lock/localisation happening here? I just see a product category "sidewalk bridges" which basically lists 4th gen Echos, but nothing else?

bitlevel4• 5 years ago

So - Amazon want to use 1/40th of my internet bandwidth.

Along with that goes 1/40th of the electric that the router and broadband modem use.

Then there were the costs for me setting up my own infrastructure with my own money.

At this point, I would expect Amazon to PAY me to use my infrastructure - not get it for free. After all, they won't send parcels to me without me paying for them?

This is a bad BAD idea. It will not garner any access over my network(s).

isatty• 5 years ago

I would like to give Amazon 0% of my bandwidth. This is a harmful “feature” that the masses will unknowingly eat up and make life harder for everyone else.

bitlevel4• 5 years ago

My whole life I've been 'Off Narrative'. Don't see any reason to change that now. lol

notyourwork4• 5 years ago

You can disable the feature.

Settings --> Account Settings --> Amazon Sidewalk --> disable.

Terretta3• 5 years ago

Oh man, your comment is so off narrative. This is their sidewalk, you just live there:

Q: What is Amazon Sidewalk?

A: Amazon Sidewalk is a shared network that helps devices work better. Operated by Amazon at no charge to customers…

Didn’t you read it? They’re operating it, not you and your bespoke investment in quality networking. And they’re generously offering it back to you, so don’t look the gift horse in the mouth to see if there are Trojans hiding in there.

… In the future, Sidewalk will support a range of experiences from using Sidewalk-enabled devices…“

See, no Trojans in this horse yet.

---

// In all seriousness though…

- I’m not alarmed by the content of the release itself, but curious about implications and plans.

- I’m happy we do not see (yet) “eero” listed in the devices.

- I’m curious though, as eero supports Thread, whether they’ll lean into an embrace/extend there, or aim to supplant. Presumably it’s not managed Thread rebranded, as AWS has sometimes done with open projects.

“So, Thread has all of these benefits without the drawbacks. It’s basically a plug-and-play mesh network, separate from your home Wi-Fi. It has excellent range, response time, but with low power usage and really the more devices you add, the better.”

https://www.threadgroup.org/

Tom’s Guide says “similar to Zigbee, Z-Wave, and Thread”:

https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk

- And I’m curious about the Echo/Alexa propensity to want to “discover” everything in your home and tell them about it — will this relay that discovery through every home within EM range in the block. They did already partner with Tile, suggesting one of several practical reasons Tile may not be choosing to embrace the Find My tech.

paultannenbaum• 5 years ago

Helium (HNT) is a competitor in this space, and does pay out (in their crypto token of course, though it has been doing very well lately). We have one at my house, and it has been making several thousand a month in tokens.

jcims3• 5 years ago

Joke's on them, my closest neighbor is a quarter mile away.

enjeyw• 5 years ago

Does this spell the end of any prosecution that relies on tying a router IP address to an identity? Seems like it would be trivial to claim that it was actually an unknown third party, connected via Amazon, that was using the network for "Illegal activity X".

worldofmatthew• 5 years ago

I am pretty sure this is not allowed in the TOS a homeowner signs with their ISP.....

johnchristopher• 5 years ago

I don't understand how it doesn't turn Amazon Echo owners into ISP against their will, nor how a company can decide to use a customer's resources without consent (data usage/quota/cap, etc., electronic fog, etc.).

yalogin• 5 years ago

I am sure they will build that sidewalk stack into every possible device they can. It’s going to be a terrible thing given how Amazon has no scruples about surveillance and tracking. It will happily build back doors into this to sell to law enforcement too.

juliand• 5 years ago

Is there anyway to opt out of this?

encryptluks22• 5 years ago

Yes, but it is opt-in by default.

JohnWhigham• 5 years ago

Yeah, don't buy a fucking Alexa.

HumblyTossed• 5 years ago

How does this not violate Comcast (for example) TOS?

Edit: Link to TOS: https://www.xfinity.com/Corporate/Customers/Policies/HighSpe...

unsigner• 5 years ago

Beautiful. An age-old techno-anarchist pipe dream, mesh networking, co-opted by the biggest of corporations. Note the language used. Users are "neighbors". The network becomes "stronger". You "support community extended coverage benefits".

It's like something straight out of Zero HP Lovecraft's fiction.

jk7tarYZAQNpTQa2• 5 years ago

I wonder how hard it would be to transform this Amazon network into an independent mesh network, out of Amazon's control.

danuker4• 5 years ago

Seeing as the smart TVs update themselves into submission, one would have to be covert enough not to trigger suspicion before disabling all update mechanisms.

einpoklum2• 5 years ago

That page is so Orwellian... it says "Peace of mind" with an image of a video surveillance camera, ensuring that you never have peace of mind as you are always watched.

jxf2• 5 years ago

If you want to disable Sidewalk, here's a quick Tweet I wrote back in November:

https://twitter.com/jxxf/status/1332684843331825665?s=19

zekrioca2• 5 years ago

Keeps returning "Something went wrong. Try reloading."

gedaxiang• 5 years ago

Weird, I don't even see the Sidewalk option in Account Settings

EDIT: looks like my Echo is too old to be compatible. Lucky I guess!

hairband• 5 years ago

If I read the disable FAQ correctly, then even if you disable it, the bridge would still work. So your device would still contribute to the network, you just won't be a part of it.

Given that, I am not sure if its any use to disable sidewalk, since your network is still being shared.

The disable FAQ:

If I disable Amazon Sidewalk, will my Sidewalk Bridges still work? Yes. All of your Sidewalk Bridges will continue to have their original functionality even if you decide to disable Amazon Sidewalk. However, disabling means missing out on Sidewalk’s connectivity and location related benefits. You also will no longer contribute your internet bandwidth to support community extended coverage benefits such as locating pets and valuables with Sidewalk-enabled devices.

jxf2• 5 years ago

This is worded confusingly. What this means is that you _won't_ contribute any bandwidth, but your (say) Echo is still otherwise an Echo.

aunlead• 5 years ago

The FAQ says you can disable it -

If I disable Amazon Sidewalk, will my Sidewalk Bridges still work?

Yes. All of your Sidewalk Bridges will continue to have their original functionality even if you decide to disable Amazon Sidewalk. However, disabling means missing out on Sidewalk’s connectivity and location related benefits. You also will no longer contribute your internet bandwidth to support community extended coverage benefits such as locating pets and valuables with Sidewalk-enabled devices.

Edit: Formatting

occamschainsaw• 5 years ago

I am worried that even if you disable it, it might act as a bridge between two Sidewalk networks. For example, if you and neigbors on both sides of your house have Alexa devices, and you disable Sidewalk on yours, it is still serving as a bridge between your neigbors' devices.

anonymousab• 5 years ago

You can flip a setting to enable DNT in a browser too. The sidewalk setting may have more of an effect for now, but that is only a temporary hurdle.

swiley• 5 years ago

Every day these companies make RMS look less and less crazy.

datalus• 5 years ago

I just read the corporate memphis article, and oh look... Amazon is also using the style right here.

All I can do is sigh, and hope for a brighter future.

Someone1234• 5 years ago

It is interesting how stark the reaction to this Vs. Apple's "Find My" network is.

Apple's version adds every iPhone to part of their network. It uses battery AND expensive mobile data even when the owner has no eligible devices, and that isn't considered controversial. But Amazon wants to use data on non-battery/non-pay per transfer lines and this is considered controversial (and an "abuse of their market position").

I'm not really defending Amazon here, but rather pointing out the huge difference in response to exactly the same kind of "hijack your device for our benefit" network. Why is one seemingly ok and the other not?

bredren4• 5 years ago

Amazon does not treat user data privacy as a core value. That means there is no floor to police those who use this network for data privacy.

Beyond that, Apple mobile devices have the most efficient battery / processor compute on the market. Nothing to be said for mobile data use, though I would be interested to see analysis of how much new bandwidth usage results from participation.

Also, I would expect Apple to be much more aggressive in curtailing unnecessary data usage than Amazon would be. That's just a gut check though.

tootie2• 5 years ago

Amazon's user data policy is very similar to Apple. They have more of it because of their reach but they don't sell it.

ActorNightly3• 5 years ago

Is this a joke?

Amazon certainly does treat user privacy seriously. When is the last time you have heard of any data leaks from Amazon?

Meanwhile, Apple App store still is littered with apps that violate user privacy. Also, did we already forget about the celebrity photo iCloud leak due to poor authentication?

katbyte2• 5 years ago

One is just for finding devices with an encrypted protocol. Only you and your own air tags communicate.

The Amazon one is creating a network that “any and all devices can use to call home to their manufacturers without wifi”

Pretty stark difference

danuker4• 5 years ago

and that isn't considered controversial.

Well, to me, it is.

ActorNightly3• 5 years ago

Its just part of the general online narrative that Amazon is "evil", while Apple, who still works with Foxconn in China and did things like have poor authentication on iCloud that cause celebrity photo leaks, goes largely unnoticed.

My guess is that tech people just really like the flashy Macbooks so the bias is present.

ShamelessC• 5 years ago

Apple's PR efforts are important here but I think the more nuanced take I see on this is that it's currently a competitive advantage for Apple to care about privacy concerns.

No clue if that's true. People should generally assume that if a big corporation is doing anything at all (in America) - it is to make money. They will only "protect you" to the level that it makes them money and they'll be happy to change their business model to something a little more like Google/Facebook for something as simple as a change in leadership.

goatcode2• 5 years ago

I'm not sure Apple was as open about advertising how their network functions.

lancepioch• 5 years ago

First the battery and "expensive" mobile data used is negligible for an iPhone. The data used for sidewalk is not necessarily but could be. Second, Find my is NOT on by default. You have a choice to enable Find My when you set up the phone. Sidewalk is on by default. Third, the data that the iPhone sends is encrypted end to end and they heavily mention that they can't even read it. Amazon does not mention that, even if it happens to be true. Fourth, sidewalk ALWAYS uses your home network. You mentioned mobile data, at the very least, that's completely separate.

kstrauser• 5 years ago

If an Amazon device which supports Sidewalk is hacked, and that device has formed an ad-hoc network with my own Amazon device on my home Wi-Fi, then the attacker is now on my network even though they started on my neighbor’s.

There is literally no comparable possibility with Find My. A random AirTag isn’t using my phone’s network connection to talk to Apple. Instead, my phone is telling Apple that it’s seen this random AirTag.

This isn’t me being an Apple fanboy or an anti-Amazon hater. The two scenarios have nothing in common. If a stranger’s AirTag was hopping onto my Apple network, I’d be furious about that. It’s not how that works though.

criddell2• 5 years ago

Didn't you see the part where it's been designed to protect your privacy?

It's only there to make sure all the cameras and internet microphones around your neighborhood stay live. You know, to protect your privacy.

nr2x• 5 years ago

“Encryption”

JKiwiojkl• 5 years ago

Military grade.

giancarlostoro2• 5 years ago

None of that actually refutes the parent commentators concerns though. That's what its designed for sure, but his concern is what if it is taken further down the road? It's a speculative question sure, but there is nothing wrong with asking it.

smichel17• 5 years ago

Parent comment was tongue in cheek.

pyrale• 5 years ago

Didn't you see the part where it's been designed to protect your privacy?

I'm probably getting wooshed, but this claim is just hard to believe coming from any company headquartered north of Antartica. No special gripe against Amazon, it's just the default assumption anyone should make these days.

jack-bodine• 5 years ago

Yeah, the privacy section only mentioned 'encryption,' nothing about personal data or data collection.

dang2• 5 years ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27116416.

criddell2• 5 years ago

Just out of curiosity, when do you do that?

natvert• 5 years ago

This could present an opportunity! Similar to what used to be a traveling TV repairman. Tubes were before my time, but I imagine a person who used to replace tubes in the TV.

Instead of fixing smart TVs, this "repairman" would go around with a hot air rework station and unsolder wifi chips from working smart TVs.

If I had a TV I would unsolder the wifi chip. Maybe even easier -- just cut the antenna traces on the PCB.

bmmayer1• 5 years ago

This title (HN) is misleading. Amazon Sidewalk is opt-in and can be configured in your Alexa App.

encryptluks22• 5 years ago

They're enabling it by default, it is not opt-in it is opt-out.

bawana• 5 years ago

They are using MY echo, MY bandwidth, MY data. Why should I give it to them for free? I am going offline with a raspberry pi picovoice. I get all the functionality of voice control without the sewage that comes with today's internet.

ashtonkem2• 5 years ago

Time for the regulators to step in on this one.

xemdetia• 5 years ago

Did anyone ask the lawyers about this one before they committed to this idea? I do not want a situation where individuals can have search warrants issued to Amazon who as a network provider can scan/canvas an entire neighborhood for a suspected crime. Encryption doesn't really cover the fact that it creates a universal backdoor to private networks that work with Amazon products. Just because they claim customer privacy does not insulate them from being served a legal order to produce records/provide access. This feels like a compute crime law nightmare.

lwhi2• 5 years ago

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm starting to think maybe tech isn't going to save us after ..

kristopolous• 5 years ago

It could, but not in the hands of money.

lwhi2• 5 years ago

Agree! We need to regulate markets to prevent FAANG domination.

orangegreen• 5 years ago

Why does Amazon only seem to be able to invent dystopian products? This, Ring, those package delivering drones, Amazon partnering with landlords to put Echos in rental apartments, etc. Why?

newsbinator• 5 years ago

What would be a utopian product that would fit into their ecosystem and benefit from their moat?

tolbish• 5 years ago

They used to be such a wonderful bookstore.

o_p• 5 years ago

Some skiddie will have a lot of fun hacking the entire neighborhood :-)

sunjester• 5 years ago

"SIDEWALK is currently in invitation only preview."

IceWreck• 5 years ago

There are huge privacy implications but anyone who would be willing to understand that already does not use Echo, Ring, etc.

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

If anyone is interested, I wouldn't mind collaborating to create a privacy oriented SmartTV or PC for devs or simply an industrial grade dumb TV. I have experience designing and building 70" industrial displays that utilize Samsung LCD panels. These "industrial" panels are normally twice the price of consumer grade ones but are designed to operate 24/7 with a MTBF of 100k hours (approx. 11 years) and are usually twice the brightness of normal ones (a very noticeable difference). I also have direct relations with Samsung for sourcing. Displays I've designed and built: https://bit.ly/3vV9jVm

1970-01-012• 5 years ago

An extremely interesting prospect you've got here. What's stopping you from doing it right now?

danuker4• 5 years ago

I would guess the massive investments needed for a hardware startup.

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

Nothing. I just realize that as I age, there's only so much a single person can do ;)

danicgross• 5 years ago

That’s interesting. Can you make something that’s higher end than the most high end consumer TV?

(If Tesla had to be “a better car that’s also electric”, I think this would need to be “a better TV that’s also private”.)

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

Higher-end can mean a lot of things, especially when talking consumer grade. I generally translate consumer grade high-end as being more aesthetically pleasing vs operationally. My expertise are more aligned with industrial grade equipment where size is typically not the limit. I've deployed a 16ft x 9ft high-res LED display for a customer in the past. That's something you don't normally find at BestBuy or even at their Magnolia outlets.

rswail2• 5 years ago

Is that something like this: https://displayy.studio/

I remember seeing them on HN a year ago, I assume that they haven't moved that far because COVID etc?

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

Sure, that use case can easily be satisfied. For digital wall art, we'd need to use a different model LCD panel which has a very small bezel all around (approx. 0.125in)

Forbo• 5 years ago

"Designed for the smart-phone generation; we removed all the hassles and added simplicity."
"This TV has everything you need, to start streaming your favourite content, from your favourite devices."

This sounds like exactly the opposite of what I want. Just give me a dumb display, ffs.

arc-in-space• 5 years ago

Completely unrelated but this hanging lamp in the second room pictured in the backgrounds on that page looks vaguely creepy to me due to my arachnophobia

mjsir911• 5 years ago

A while back it was called ironcast! The rename confused me a bit

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21302825

goda90• 5 years ago

An interesting product could be a TV with swap-able boards. One could be a simple dumb board with inputs, or you could switch it out for a board with privacy oriented smart features. There could also be a gaming targeted board with more even more power. I don't know much about driving LCD/OLED panels, but maybe it could also be useful for updating specs, like you could just upgrade the board when there's a new HDMI version or HDR standard, or to add hardware acceleration for a new codec.

jonatron• 5 years ago

Search for "Universal LCD TV Controller" or similar, it's sometimes already possible.

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

The gallery I showcased is already semi-swappable in that sense. You are able to change the driving board out for another board or LVDS compatible PC/RaspPi. However, if I'm understanding what you're saying, I think you mean swapping capability similar to a rackmount server hard-drive. Sure, that can be designed and implemented with some effort...let's say 2-3 weeks time.

joerickard• 5 years ago

That does sound interesting! It's a bit outside my wheelhouse, but I'm looking for a new project. Feel free to send me an email (in bio) if you want to chat about this more.

jcims3• 5 years ago

Dealing with industrial panels for a large fast food chain menu system was pretty enlightening. There was a surprising amount of management and environmental/telemetry information available from the embedded system on the panel.

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

Based on the application, some manufacturer do create custom controllers that monitor/capture environmental data in order to safeguard the equipment from experiencing catastrophic failure or performing triggered/scheduled reboots, brightness adjustments, etc based on specific events like local temp, fan speed, on-time hours, etc.

bkovacev• 5 years ago

How would one go about contacting you?

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

My username at gmail

gjsman-10005• 5 years ago

That's very interesting. I wonder if you would consider doing something like the (unicorn) new Google TV devices which have the ability to turn off the smart features entirely - except with Kodi or stock Android for the UI. Heck, even if it was a Smart TV that could run an open-source Android build instead of the proprietary bootloader-locked stuff there'd be a niche for that too.

teekert3• 5 years ago

Yeah, or perhaps build it on Ubuntu Core (their transactional/IOT version of the OS)

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

Sure. I think it would be best to keep the solution platform agnostic by utilizing an embedded PC and developing a browser based portal (which could work offline as well) for managing playback of various services. With WebRTC in play these days, I'm sure some very interesting solution could be developed.

jpm_sd• 5 years ago

I think successfully partnering with streaming services might be the tricky bit of a "privacy oriented SmartTV" project? How will you get Amazon, Netflix and Hulu on board?

gjsman-10005• 5 years ago

You might consider talking to PlayOn. They've found a way to record video from streaming services locally and stream encrypted video to DNLA/UPnP devices without encryption for over a decade - despite operating in the US. The Video Stream is only 720p, but it's better than nothing.

With their software, you can record Netflix/Hulu/Peacock/Disney+/Whatever to your computer or stream videos from those services to a Kodi box. They've never been sued from any of these services because of their (interesting) legal argument.

If you could integrate their services or techniques, you wouldn't need any approval from the streaming services.

tehwebguy2• 5 years ago

If you make this happen consider making them more easily serviceable too. My guess is TVs are a big landfill problem because they are too inexpensive for most people to bother getting repaired.

Personally my ~8-10 y/o Samsung LED has a periodic problem that I’ve been diagnosing with YouTube, it seems like a lot of issues are caused by something simple like loose connectors inside.

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

Except for the LCD panel itself, everything else (the controller, PSU, wire harnesses, connectors, etc) are already easily serviceable. If you can build a computer, you can service this display.

A big bonus with my industrial design would be that the casing itself is made out of metal and harder to damage than plastic casing of most large format displays.

For your specific case, is that a consumer grade panel? What issues are you having?

zschuessler• 5 years ago

I don't know if this falls in your vision or not, probably not, but I'll say I would pay top-dollar for an Android TV that was veritably privacy focused.

I purchased a Sony TV that runs Android and adore it. I initially purchased it because it was a no-nonsense take on Android with high-rated privacy support. Sadly, over the past year they have begun introducing ads, promotions, and privacy policy readjustments that I don't agree with.

An unlocked Android store would be great value. I can currently sideload Android apps on my TV. I can SSH into it if I want to, run my own server, etc. It has a high powered processor and good RAM so I can even multitask apps in it. I love everything about the TV except the privacy changes.

Anyway, best of luck - I love the idea of dumb/privacy focused TVs :-)

gjsman-10005• 5 years ago

I don't think it'd be that hard. There are these cheap Android chips from China all over the place from companies like Allwinner which can be bought in almost any quantity (even extremely small quantities from an industrial perspective).

You take one of those (which currently have reverse-engineering efforts for drivers ongoing with Sunxi project) and simply run a stock Android AOSP without any code signing. The end user would need to install the Play Store and video wouldn't play above HD for the lack of Hardware-supported DRM, but then you would just model your remote control to work like a Game Controller (which Android supports decently).

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

Keeping PRIVACY a top priority, my ultimate vision would be to move away from these so called app stores. Considering the current state of things, I know that sounds very unrealistic. However, something inside me still tells me that if you create something of value, they will come!

sneak4• 5 years ago

How could they introduce anything if you don't connect the TV to the internet at all?

My Sony OLED smart tv works the same way it did when I got it.

asimpletune2• 5 years ago

Can it support AirPlay? I hate how AirPlay enabled devices can be so expensive.

URSpider94• 5 years ago

you'd have to plug in an AirPlay-capable device, most likely. For a device to support AirPlay natively, you have to sign up to a complex and expensive licensing process with Apple that includes a ton of validation testing.

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

Sure, I'd just use a $99 Apple TV for that whenever needed.

edit: I am getting old. AppleTV used to be $99 and it seems prices have gone up a little since. Either way, AppleTV would be my goto method whenever AirPlay is required.

gonehome7• 5 years ago

I think there’s a market for this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26290427

“Make it OLED, dumb TV, instant on, Apple TV box plugs in. Separate box with front facing ports that connects to screen with one cable. A remote designed by someone who thought about it for ten seconds (why do modern TVs have dozens of buttons no one ever uses?).

This entire market is in desperate need of someone to make something decent. The best available option today is LG and it’s still laden with ads and takes a few seconds to boot up.”

I would buy one at least, there’s definitely some low hanging fruit.

I'd probably even lean into it and name the company 'dumb electronics', plus there's a nice sort of symmetry to the word 'dumb' and 'db' would be a decent logo.

enos_feedler2• 5 years ago

I am 100% in on making this. Another recent thread where I chimed in on making something with fewer buttons. I also lament about the latest LG offerings. I even propose ditching a first party remote in favor of just connecting with your favorite one. Why add to the problem of too many remotes by adding yet another one?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26993846

I would love to chat with someone who knows more about the hardware side. How do you get a panel with a "dev kit" where you can load on the copy protection and all the modern stuff needed to play DRM content? I would be up for building a new OS from scratch.

xwdv• 5 years ago

When you finally do make such a TV, you must sell it for more than a smart TV to be taken seriously, and only use the highest quality materials.

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

The controller in my industrial display accepts serial commands for control and has a fairly simple IR remote you can use as well. For customer application, we developed a simple .NET utility that they use to control approx. 240x individual displays at each facility from a single control room. Knowing that RS232 can be controlled using NodeJS these days, I'm sure more creative solutions can be developed for a personalized remote control.

bmcahren• 5 years ago

A disconnected roku works well once you fumble around and bypass the mandatory setup then activate HDMI-CEC so Google TV can simply and easily power, unpower, and switch inputs without issue.

The remote is simple enough only containing maybe 6 unused buttons.

discardable_dan2• 5 years ago

Doesn't Spectre fill basically all of these requirements? For example, this 4k offering on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Sceptre-U550CV-U-Ultra-2160p-60Hz/dp/... There is no smart functionality, just some HDMI ports. I haven't owned one myself, but I plan to when it's time to eventually replace my 10-year-old TV.

jasonjayr• 5 years ago

Define a standard form factor for a box that can have attachments to it. (Say approximatly 1 x RPi or 1.5 x RPi), that has a secure modular connector that is fed HDMI IN/OUT, Power, a data bus (Ethernet?), and space so custom connectors can be on the other side. Offer panels with a 'startup' block, and maybe 1 or two others for other devices. Ensure there is enough ventilation for passive/silent cooling.

Set up partners to make custom boxes. Things like SSD's in the same form factor storing media to be shared with other media block devices, (HDMI would be unpopulated), a Roku in the secondary/primary position. DTv Tuners with a Coaxial F-Connector for the antenna, etc.

This "Standard media block" connector could even be retrofit to legacy panels by means of an external box, and one master upstream connector.

Does anything like this exist yet? If not, what would be preventing it?

yumraj2• 5 years ago

I have a Sony x90ch, it has no ads, just a thin panel with some content suggestions which we ignore. It may be because I run it through pi-hole but I don't think Sony tvs do ads in general. I had to make to not accept a particular option for a service, don't remember the name, which does tracking. Pretty stock Android from what I can tell.

Compared to what I've been hearing about Samsung and LG it's been rather nice in this respect.

xadhominemx• 5 years ago

I think the market for this product is very small.

maccard• 5 years ago

I would buy one at least

Would you? At 2x the price (based on the last time I bought one of them) for just the panel, plus an apple tv ($200) plus a speaker/soundbar (let's say $500) - and you're not getting an OLED with ARC at that either.

NathanielK2• 5 years ago

They exist[1]. The pricing is likely out of your budget though.

The included ads, large volumes, and low margins all drive down the cost of consumer displays. Your dream might also end up quite expensive. [1] https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/broadcastpromonitors

cactus2093• 5 years ago

Would this dumb tv support things like eARC and HDMI CEC? It would be nice to buy a TV without the builtin streaming apps (and the inevitable advertising and phoning home that comes along with it), because I prefer to use a separate device like an Apple TV anyway. But there are some useful features in modern TVs that do seem to require the processing power of a smart TV.

lettergram• 5 years ago

I’d buy one

greggman3• 5 years ago

I'd buy one. Is this something you can do like Drop where you take orders and only release if you get enough orders to make it worth while?

I guess you have to deal with bad units and other stuff but just wondering.

I think people will have different ideas of "dumb". For example.

* A TV with only 1 input. If you want more inputs get an external switch etc...

* A TV with no audio. If you want audio use external speakers

* A TV with no remote. With the 2 things above all you need is on an off? And/Or maybe just support whatever the protocol is so that other devices can control it.

Just thinking out loud, I'm sure there's a big disagreement on what's the minimal features.

stanmancan2• 5 years ago

I could be wrong, but I would imagine most people consider a dumb TV to be exactly how pre-smart TV's worked: Screen, speakers, multiple inputs, and a remote.

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

I like your list. A lot! Yes, possible. We’ve manufactured approx 3000x 70” industrial displays since 2015...since then, we have yet to run into any bad panels. 2 of the panels did get damaged during the handling process but generally, a panel being bad from the factory has never been an issue. I’ll keep monitoring your list for any updates. Thank you!

forgingahead• 5 years ago

Throw up a Patreon or Kickstarter and I'll commit immediately to a set from the first run production.

mdorazio• 5 years ago

To you and all the people replying to you: have you actually searched for this already? Sounds like a lot of MOM Test fails in here. For example, [1].

[1] https://helpatmyhome.com/best-non-smart-tv/

sayhar• 5 years ago

MOM test?

Lgbhcqpahi• 5 years ago

Why does anyone want a smart TV at all or any other device? Almost everyone I know has an old tablet or laptop that they don't use at home. Get a dumb tv / projector (or even a smart tv but don't connect it to your network and use its smart features), plug the old laptop/tablet in using HDMI and use a bluetooth keyboard with a trackpad as a remote. You get everything you want with it - browser to login and watch whatever you want to, much much better experience typing in login/passwords than your tv remote, install whatever adblocks/security software you want. Added bonus, instead of buying another device you'd be using an old laptop/tablet you'd discard otherwise.

mbesto• 5 years ago

I'm 100% in to buy this.

Even better if you can do an OLED copy of this without all of the crap, I'm 150% in:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_68965CXP/LG-OLED65CXPUA.html?t...

axaxs• 5 years ago

Out of curiosity, how much would such a thing cost?

I'd love a 'dumb' display, but it would be hard for me to justify dropping thousands to have one, when I'm perfectly satisfied just leaving the internet disconnected from my $400 'trash tier' TV.

This isn't knocking the idea, it's a genuine question that also kinda ties into the question of how much money mfgs are making from this privacy invasion.

thrav• 5 years ago

Grab anyone else in this thread interested, and pitch it to Wyze as a new product division.

Granted, their products aren’t dumb, but they seem to be very consumer and quality focused. I have loved everything they’ve done.

CuriousSkeptic3• 5 years ago

I think I would be interested in a dumb device to plug some Apple TV in.

Would it not be hard to secure licenses for HD-playback for a small player with privacy focus for a smart tv?

One concern on “dumb” though. It’s one thing to skip apps and streaming, but I suppose some smarts are required to support things like upscaling or advanced frame interpolation ( https://blurbusters.com/frame-rate-amplification-technologie... )

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

Display controller solves that part. If the demand is high enough, a custom controller can be developed to match controller on-board Apple Pro XDR while keeping the price point significantly cheaper.

yumraj2• 5 years ago

1) you should have some contact info in your profile so that people can actually contact you.

2) I'll suggest you setup a website with info regarding this with more details and so on, again so that people can get in touch with you, you can measure interest and perhaps even build a few one off TVs for some people to kick start.

Rest will follow..

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

my apologies. i thought my email was visible in my profile. i updated the about section. thx

big_big_data• 5 years ago

i'd be interested in collaborating. I'm a data engineer but familiar with toying with raspberry pi type work as well.

Currently just really frustrated using my roku, which has insanely bad latency and occasionally reboots for no reason.

mcculley• 5 years ago

Take my money!

Seriously, I don't want any screens in my home that don't respect the user.

This means privacy. It also means I don't want any branding. I don't want any logos visible, either on the case or when the screen powers on.

I want the screen to be completely controlled by my Apple TV. It should implement HDMI-CEC or whatever protocol is necessary such that it does not ship with a remote control of its own. (I have had trouble with various displays requiring me to keep their stupid remote control around.)

It should have no visible lights on the case. When the screen is off, I don't want any lights at all distracting me.

How much do I need to pay for this? Every time I ask a genius at an Apple store, they have no idea.

turtlebits• 5 years ago

They already exist (I'm sure you probably know about them). About 10 years ago I bought one from Panasonic, essentially a display with swappable input boards, including an embedded PC. No speakers, no legs. I bought it because back then I wanted DVI on my TV.

ryansc0tt• 5 years ago

Basically xfinitywifi for Amazon products

ChrisArchitect2• 5 years ago

announced clearly in 2019

https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/devices/introducing-amazon-...

I mean seemed clear what it was from the announcement back then

ChrisArchitect2• 5 years ago

So much discussion about this previously

6 months ago, same page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25196521

TechCrunch article 8 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24565259

TechCrunch article 2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21073841

Amazon apologizing for Sidewalk 'confusion' 6 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25217233

angry_octet4• 5 years ago

For $50 Billion Dollars: "What is a global mesh surveillance network?"

prtkgpt• 5 years ago

NO.

efwfhfasljd• 5 years ago

Amazon published a whitepaper on Sidewalk's Privacy and Security:

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/G/01/sidewalk/final_privac...

In a nutshell:

- endpoints (eg, smart bulb) doesn't know much about the gateway (which could belong to your neighbor)

- the gateway doesn't know much about your endpoints.

If you're concerned about privacy, also look at the application of the protocol: Amazon's Ring Security Cameras are meant to be used in a Facebook-Like hobbyist surveillance community:

https://shop.ring.com/pages/neighbors-public-safety-service

AlexandrB• 5 years ago

There seems to be no greater hive of scum and villainy in technology than the IoT space. Between security issues, obsolescence by (lack of) firmware updates, and companies curtailing services that make any of this stuff work after a few years the whole thing seems like a shit show that showcases all the worst tendencies in modern tech.

This announcement fits that mold nicely. A "service" where an IoT vendor piggybacks their own mesh-ish network on top of products you bought from them.

dleslie• 5 years ago

The Panoptikon as a product.

It's almost comical how blatant it is scifi villainy.

epa• 5 years ago

No one so far has mentioned the helium network which is similar to this. Interesting amazon is moving into this market.

hwbehrens• 5 years ago

I do research on mesh networking, and the response to Sidewalk in the tech community has been pretty discouraging. People have rightly brought up Apple's Find My network as a similar application; companies are leveraging existing, ubiquitous devices to create additional network transport layers. See also, the proliferation and adoption of the Thread protocol.

This doesn't mean we have to use these networks! But this is one of the first, easiest steps to make progress towards ubiquitous, decentralized connectivity. I understand that not everyone trusts Amazon with their private data, but do you trust Verizon or Comcast more? I don't!

If there are multiple, competing standards that offer heterogeneous connectivity options, we'll be (relatively) much closer to resilient, censorship-resistant communication infrastructure than we are now. Like TCP/UDP, there are methods to guard the contents of a message on mesh networks as well.

Finally, for those who think that it would be better to maintain centralized, monopolistic infrastructure and legislate privacy through legal means instead, I would argue that the arc of government is long, and bends toward control & surveillance. If a government is the only barrier between users and total control of information flow, then if that government wavers in their commitment, regaining the previous level of freedom is very difficult without the ability to communicate freely.

crazygringo5• 5 years ago

Thank you. I'm baffled by how positive the HN community was to AirTags, but not to this...?

And aren't more networks a good thing? Shouldn't there be another competitor here?

Also, I'm not sure where people are getting that Amazon is bad at privacy. Amazon isn't Facebook, nor is it even Google Analytics, nor has it been involved in any user/privacy data scandal I can think of. I mean, most of the criticism of Amazon seems to do with worry that electronics you buy might turn out to be counterfeit... but that has nothing to do with this.

This seems like really cool tech, folks.

atonse• 5 years ago

That's because there's deceptive language here.

There's lots of details out there about the great lengths Apple has gone to preserve actual privacy with AirTags. AirTags have been designed so nobody, not the random device holder, or even Apple, can ever see any information.

But look at Amazon's language on "privacy" - they basically say "everything is encrypted" which is essentially meaningless for privacy. It's meaningful for _security_.

And that is the difference. There's no evidence that Amazon has actually tried to create a system that respects the user's privacy (including from Amazon). Secure, yes. Private? no.

badRNG• 5 years ago

Also, I'm not sure where people are getting that Amazon is bad at privacy.

Oh, I dunno, profiting from selling law enforcement nearly unrestricted access[1] to their existing IOT offerings as part of what they call "the new neighborhood watch"[2] while also profiting facial recognition offerings (Rekognition) doesn't really give me the impression they're good at privacy. In fact, it makes Google Analytics seem down right charitable in comparison.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/11/19/police-...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/08/28/doorbel...

testific82• 5 years ago

And aren't more networks a good thing?

No, the internet and mesh networks like these are both surveilance networks. Increasing the number of options availiable doesn't really do much if the end result is the same. So tell that to your folks.

Also, I'm not sure where people are getting that Amazon is bad at privacy

I think you should forward all your emails, internet traffic, and transaction history to me. Also install a microphone/tracking device in your house, on your kids and on your pets. Why? Well you don't really gain anything, but it will give you convenient access to my new lineup of time-wasting machines. Don't worry, I haven't had any major user privacy/data scandals so it's cool. But if you don't want to do that, it's fine because your neighbors are part of the program and their devices will snitch to me about your TV/Car/Thermostat. Be seeing you.

arrosenberg2• 5 years ago

Finally, for those who think that it would be better to maintain centralized, monopolistic infrastructure and legislate privacy through legal means instead, I would argue that the arc of government is long, and bends toward control & surveillance.

Right now the arc of private industry is to maintain centralized, monopolistic infrastructure and legislate privacy through even less accessible "councils" and "boards", with the same exact negative implications. That's not any more appealing, and it shouldn't be surprising that people want to use the one avenue available to them (government) to right it. In fact, it's somewhat discouraging when someone is so suspicious of government power, but openly embraces concentrated corporate power. We shouldn't trust any of them - Amazon, Apple, Verizon or AT&T. The government is the one organization we have some level of influence over.

zemo• 5 years ago

there was another thread where people were like "gamedevs make less money because they're exploited nincompoops and don't know how to negotiate" or other i-am-an-alien-studying-humanity-at-a-distance comments like "the game industry somehow is able to pay people less, because people for some reason want to do that work" and talking about how much more FAANG jobs pay as if it is news to people that don't work for those companies but the reality is

the big tech companies are evil and they have to pay a lot because 95% of people know that they are evil and refuse to work for them for anything less than a small fortune, and if you can't see that the FAANG companies are all bad for society, you are in the 5%, so congratulations on being so detached from humanity that you are unaware of the damage your labor is doing to society.

orthecreedence• 5 years ago

"Amazon Surveillance"

intrasight• 5 years ago

I foresee a market for new home builds being tempest shielded

irrational• 5 years ago

Just to be clear, I can avoid this by not purchasing devices like the Echo or Ring, right?

macjohnmcc2• 5 years ago

Modern televisions have made me wish they were just dumb (as possible) monitors with no software interface. Just select the input, power, volume, brightness etc those things no Roku or other smarts.

pupdogg30• 5 years ago

Amen. I also wish cars would just have dumb push-button or radial-knob controls vs a smart touchscreens. I'm a big fan of things that simply work and work for a long time.

patrickk• 5 years ago

There’s so many products that fall into this category. Stuff designed several decades ago was often more reliable and easier to fix with simple tools (I’m thinking of Japanese cars in the 90s up to the early 2000s but you can apply it to many products). And now with ‘smart’ products, aka internet of shit, it’s gotten worse. I have a modded iPod classic for this reason, keep a NAS for ripped media, keep a dumb TV as long as it lives, use a bombproof Casio instead of a flaky smartwatch, etc. You don’t have to waste mental cycles by complicating your life with unreliable crap.

I hope the GP succeeds with a Kickstarter or whatever, I’d definitely be in the market for such a TV.

ziml77• 5 years ago

I'd also love a return to physical controls, but my concern with the touchscreens is actually less to do with durability and more to do with tactility and muscle memory. Before I stopped driving altogether, I had a car with a touchscreen interface. It had more functionality than other cars I'd driven and I appreciated that, but it also felt more dangerous to operate at times. Dedicated buttons for all the controls might have been impractical, but I think they should have at least gone with the older style of having dynamic function, phsyical buttons along the side of the screen.

macjohnmcc2• 5 years ago

I occasionally have to reboot my car’s entertainment system when it says it cant adjust the volume. And every time i start it it turns the audio back on even if i turned it off.

pvorb2• 5 years ago

So you want a PC monitor with a remote, right? I've always wondered why this doesn't exist.

vageli• 5 years ago

Who even needs the remote anymore when devices can be controlled over HDMI?

TingPing2• 5 years ago

My benq monitor came with a remote. They exist.

nfoz• 5 years ago

I miss when Macbooks came with remotes.

teolandon• 5 years ago

What is up with Amazon being a multi-billion dollar company, yet serving extremely low-quality JPEGs for this marketing page? It looks so cheap.

jonny_eh2• 5 years ago

Why is everyone talking about televisions here? I don't see any mention in the announcement about smart TVs.

websites4202• 5 years ago

Because TVs are smart home Trojan horses. The other IoT stuff you can avoid because they’re totally new categories of thing (smart locks, smart speakers) but TVs are bog standard devices that get creepier every generation. Sidewalk makes opting out of the creep factor harder.

jonny_eh2• 5 years ago

Is Sidewalk included with TVs?

debrice• 5 years ago

Two things bothers me here. It is described as free of charge while you should be paid to provide internet connection and power to consolidate Amazon network’s infrastructure. Second is the risk of the protection being too weak to prevent people other to access your camera, voice recording, wifi… this shortcut seem to mainly benefit Amazon while most of the costs and risks are put on its clients.

balozi• 5 years ago

Banks should be being more like Amazon. Send everyone a free $5 gift card. Then convert all those cards automatically into credit cards after three months.

Amazon should be more like banks. Gamify the experience and entice users into your program with rewards, points or "miles".

0800LUCAS• 5 years ago

Is there such a thing as LineageOS for SmartTVs?

Could that be a way to prevent sneaky services from pushing information you don't want out of your TV?

tyingq• 5 years ago

I think it's a neat idea, but I don't like the precedence of "Ring" devices sharing video with law enforcement in a way that doesn't require warrants, or deleting the video after some time period, etc. I guess I'll disable this on my network since I don't want to aid that process.

dtrickett• 5 years ago

"Customers with a Sidewalk Bridge (today, many Echo devices, Ring Floodlight Cams and Ring Spotlight Cams) can contribute a small portion of their internet bandwidth, which is pooled together to create a shared network that benefits all Sidewalk-enabled devices in a community."

If only this logic applied elsewhere

(Citizens) with a (paying job) can contribute a small portion of their (paycheck), which is pooled together to create a shared (infrastructure) that benefits all (citizens) in a community.

Simulacra• 5 years ago

This reminded me too much of the time Comcast tried to turn customer routers into public wifi APs. Amazon creeps me out enough, Sidewalk is something I quickly disabled.

mrb• 5 years ago

Tech side: according to https://aws.amazon.com/iot-core/features/ the physical network seems to be implemented using LoRa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoRa which has a range of up to 10 km in perfect situations (so more likely 1 km in urban environments)

Edit: actually maybe Amazon uses a proprietary version of LoRa: https://enterpriseiotinsights.com/20201208/channels/news/lor...

dudus• 5 years ago

Interesting to see Tile on the list of devices. Tile is in a rough spot since Apple launched their product that is exactly the same but with a better network, better integration and better fine accuracy. Give me a sliver of hope for their future. Tile is doomed if this initiative fails.

goatcode2• 5 years ago

Wouldn't this go against some ISPs TOS about reselling or sharing a connection?

eecc• 5 years ago

whose tech are they repackaging this time?

kodah• 5 years ago

I'm imagining someone building a utility looking box that can be stuck in apartment complex gardens or in the gardens of office complexes that has some dummy wifi that captures this exfiltration for its own means. If they want to be really sneaky they could put distance between themselves and the fake utility box using a LoRa bridge.

splithalf• 5 years ago

“ Don’t think you need Amazon Sidewalk? No worries. You can update this anytime from the Ring or Alexa mobile apps.”

Rotflmao

jhatax• 5 years ago

Is Tile now a Prime acquisition target of Amazon?

alisonkisk2• 5 years ago

This is a corporate take over of the fabric of society. It's sickening that our social fabric is mediated by a giant monopoly. We need a municipal alternative.

Amazon Sidewalk

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