I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2025/i-bought-cheapest-ev-used-nissan-leaf

by calcifer • 11 months ago

473 671 11 months ago

jeffgeerling.com

tfrutuoso• 11 months ago

(...)I'm trying to do some things to extend the battery's life as long as possible (...) Not driving like a maniac.

Oops. My work daily is the same Leaf, my personal car is a '95 1.8 Turbo Miata. The Leaf suffers.

sgt1012• 11 months ago

EV's look like EV's because they don't have the same constraints on space that ICEV's do. There is no engine in the front/back, no water pump, no oil pump, no water cooled radiator, no starter motor... so on so on. There's also a great big battery under the floor pan and no gas tank.

They are also heavier, so need different set ups in order to handle decently.

But, that's why they look so different.

HPsquared2• 11 months ago

They tend to handle better than ICE cars due to the low centre of mass (also the fact the big mass - the battery - is firmly bolted to the frame and not wobbling around on rubber mounts like an engine does). These are both big advantages in terms of dynamics. Couple that with the much faster powertrain response and many options to do torque vectoring to each wheel (individual motors on sports models) and it's an easy win for EVs. Then we get to the potential for fan-assisted downforce (e.g. McMurtry Spéirling) and it's even more blatant. ICEs are still better at endurance, though.

squigz• 11 months ago

Now I want street versions of the Speirling.

jonfw• 11 months ago

People way overstate the "dynamics" advantages of EVs

Yes EVs can keep their weight low, but it's a lot more weight to deal with.

Yes EVs have excellent 0-60, but that's just because they have a great launch. Even doing a 5-60 pull removes the EV advantage. Starting from highway speeds? EVs start to look real slow.

There are some good traits to EVs but, outside of launching hard in street car trim, performance is not one of them.

bzzzt2• 11 months ago

That wouldn't explain the unorthodox color schemes lots of smaller EVs like the i3 have. It really seems they are made uglier 'on purpose'. Also, a Tesla model S or 3 looks like a normal car so it's not other brands can't do that.

VBprogrammer• 11 months ago

I think the Tesla looking like a normal car is because their design language hasn't changed in forever.

I've found myself taking a second look at a bunch of ICE cars recently as they've all started trying to copy elements from electric car design...

rsynnott8• 11 months ago

VW's first-gen EVs, the eGolf and later eUp, looked basically just like the Golf and Up. This lead people to believe that VW did not make electric cars (a lot of people thought the ID.3/4 were their first). The market _wants_ electric cars to be a bit weird-looking.

ZeroGravitas4• 11 months ago

This is just what the contemporary Nissan ICE cars looked like.

The first gen leaf got a lot of commentary about this "EV look" and the contemporary Nissan Note had a similar front end. And then both got 2nd gens that evolved similarly.

Their Juke could be an overinflated Leaf at a glance etc.

Wikipedia photos:

1st gen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Note#/media/File:2005_N...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#/media/File:2017_N...

2nd gen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Note#/media/File:Nissan...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#/media/File:Nissan...

bluGill7• 11 months ago

They still have similar constrains - crumple zones for crash protection mean they will never make a 'flat front' again. aerodynamics is also a factor and again places limits on design.

ponector4• 11 months ago

The only difference between EV and ICE is less holes in front as they need less air for cooling the radiator. All other things looks similar. How car looks is a design choice not related to the type of engine.

clysm• 11 months ago

No. It’s 100% a design choice by the manufacturer to make them look weird.

Even with the benefits of EV packaging, manufacturers chose to make them “different” on purpose, which really put off the vast majority of buyers. Tesla had so much success because they were practically the first manufacturer to make something look somewhat normal and have good stats.

Now, BMW finally learned and has their 4 and 5 series EV cars share a common platform with the ICE. There is no physical difference in style other than the front grill.

Xenoamorphous• 11 months ago

* Limiting the number of QCs (Quick Charges / DC Fast Charge), as this heats up the uncooled Leaf battery, degrading it slightly each time, especially on hotter days

* Keeping the charge between 50-80% when manageable

* Charging up to 100% at least once a month, and letting it 'top off' to rebalance the pack for at least a few hours afterwards

* Not driving like a maniac, despite having more torque in this car than I've ever had in any of my previous cars

This kind of thing (minus the driving like a maniac bit) is what puts me off EVs. I guess it's unavoidable? My experience with laptop and phone batteries (holding much less charge pretty quickly) doesn't help. My phone (iPhone 12) says battery health is at 81% but it doesn't feel like it so I'm not sure I'd trust that Leaf saying it's got 93%.

FirmwareBurner3• 11 months ago

If you think this is what puts you off EVs, then you haven't read the horror stories from EV Clinic.

TL;DR is many EVs and hybrids (especially European ones) have tonnes of design faults with e-motors and power-electronics that not only make them ticking time bombs(not in the explosive sense) out of warranty, but also have malicious DRM making third party parts impossible to source, and repairs difficult and eye watering expensive even if theoretically EVs should be more reliable on paper than ICE cars.

Maybe the EU should focus more on EV/auto repairability regulations instead of smartphones and USB-C widgets.

Luckily EV Clinic is working hard on breaking the DRM and reverse engineering parts to make and sell aftermarket ones, but this shouldn't be needed in the first place if the OEMs weren't so bad at design, greedy and hostile to consumers and aftermarket repairs.

Seriously, we need regulations here ASAP. The free market doesn't work here for the consumer when OEMs all do the same anti consumer things.

mort965• 11 months ago

The DRM thing unfortunately has nothing to do with EVs and everything to do with the computerization of cars. All cars have gotten more and more computerized and harder to repair with more DRM. EVs arguably fundamentally require heavy computerization more than ICE cars, but you're not gonna avoid it in a brand new diesel car either.

jacquesm• 11 months ago

Maybe the EU should focus more on EV/auto repairability regulations instead of smartphones and USB-C widgets.

Maybe they should do both.

theshrike793• 11 months ago

Hybrids are a different breed, they're very very bad. Don't ever buy one out of warranty and be REALLY sure what the warranty covers.

FYI: Mercedes Benz hybrids have a full(*) battery warranty. What's the asterisk you ask? The warranty only covers repairs up to the car's current value. Which has plummeted over the few years you've owned it and the cost of the battery is absolutely ridiculous. Like "buy 3 used Leafs" ridiculous.

Most hybrid batteries are also blobs of molten plastic and silicone that can't be repaired at all. EV batteries are constructed of semi-standard cells and can be opened and repaired piecemeal by specialist shops. Official repairs usually just swap the whole thing - again for a massive cost.

guepe2• 11 months ago

This is completely avoided and not my experience. This is only because the leaf is not actively cooled. Most ev do not suffer from such difficult management of battery and have a computer dedicated to cool / heat and keep battery in healthy temps.

They do degrade over time but very, very slowly. Absolutely not like phones. Mine has 25k miles and zero degradation yet.

formerly_proven4• 11 months ago

Even then the Leaf stands out with seemingly unusually high battery degradation compared to the uncooled battery competitors from 2014.

dzhiurgis10• 11 months ago

Mine has 25k miles and zero degradation yet.

Let me guess - Hyundai? They are notoriously lying about degradation.

mschuster917• 11 months ago

Limiting QC events is easy enough. A daily commuter vehicle can easily trickle charge over night, and even the measly 40 kWh old used Leaf can get you 200km a charge - assuming an average commute of 20 km for Germany, that's a whole work week worth of battery life. The only time you as an average person actually "need" QC is for the yearly vacation road trip, but as the author writes, renting an ICE or chungus electric vehicle for that occasion is way more cost effective. Admitted: if you don't have access to trickle charge at either the workplace or your home, the situation looks different.

As for the battery health rating, it's easy enough to measure. Go on the highway, keep it at 80 km/h straight and note how much range you get out of it. In practical commute settings, range will be longer than that anyway due to regenerative braking in all that start-stop-start-stop dance.

theshrike793• 11 months ago

This is the thing that ICE people need to internalise.

You THINK you're driving long distances every day and you THINK charging is a massive hassle where you have to drive to a Charging Site and wait for the car to charge for HOURS.

When in reality you plug in at home and have a full battery every morning.

And when the infrastructure is properly built (yay Finland), you can get a week's charge when you're getting groceries as the shop has multiple 100kW chargers along with a fleet of Level 2 (22kW) chargers.

The only times I need to actively think about charging are over 200-250km day trips (my old Ioniq EV has a WLTP of 300km on a warm summer day). And even then the kids an dogs need a bathroom break anyway and I need to walk around a bit to freshen up. 20-30 minutes gets us 100-150km of charge (old car, slow charging) and we're off again.

bluGill7• 11 months ago

Renting a car for vacations / road trips is expensive. sure you can but expect to pay $100 per day. Also expect to arrive and be told they can't fill your reservation as they are out of cars.

stanski• 11 months ago

I thought about this too - own a small electric vehicle for 90% of the family needs and rent a bigger SUV when the need arises.

Until you do the math and realize that the 3-4 annual trips of multiple days would end up costing thousands of dollars in rental fees per year. Plus the usual inconveniences around renting.

Suddenly the math does not look so appealing.

carstenhag• 11 months ago

This is, as the title mentions, the cheapest EV. It's really old. It did not have tech that pretty much all EVs have nowadays.

Nowadays you don't have to do this. You can. Just like with your phone or laptop.

nicce2• 11 months ago

It's really old.

Funny, how 2 years old car is really old. For combustion engines, old is like 15+?

EVs will have the same problems as mobile phones. Maybe manufactures want that. But software will define the age of your car and I don’t like it. What if the car requires internet connection and the company dies?

kbos87• 11 months ago

I don't think about any of this and never have. My 2022 Model Y has 60,000 miles on it and the battery has only lost a negligible amount of health/range since I bought it.

jimnotgym4• 11 months ago

What was the purchase cost difference between a Model Y and a Leaf in 2022?

numpad03• 11 months ago

Those were comporomises Nissan made in 2010s to build an EV that will be under $30k new in 2025. Not all of it are fundamental limitations of Li-ion BEV technology.

Tangential trivia: BYD Dolphin Baseline is 20k new before subsidies in some places.

fifilura3• 11 months ago

My understanding is that 2 & 3 are problems with the original (20kWh) Leaf model. Which possibly led to a rumour about the 40kWh models, that the OP has.

My Leaf from 2019 has 100% battery health and I always charge it to 100%. I almost never use fast charging though since it is a commute kind of car.

geerlingguy11• 11 months ago

Is that the health reported by the car dashboard, or by LeafSpy? The dash has some wiggle room in its 1-10 display an IIRC it will display 100% until the SoH is below like 90%...

sevenseacat• 11 months ago

I just checked my phone (an iPhone 11) and it says 72%. There is absolutely no way the capacity is anywhere near 72% anymore lol

ruperthair2• 11 months ago

The performance/battery life of a phone can be seriously affected by the software (each new iOS being built for newer CPUs), whereas this is less of a factor for cars.

rsynnott8• 11 months ago

A lot of this is either over-caution, or related to the Leaf's specific quirks (though it's not uncooled, it's passively cooled by airflow).

KaiserPro3• 11 months ago

All of those problems are solved in non-leaf cars.

The leaf is a terrible steward if its battery. virtually every other car is better in virtually every single way.

behnamoh• 11 months ago

You should never purchase EVs, only lease them. That's what I did. This saves you from the terrible depreciation they have.

The only time it makes sense to buy an EV is if it's used.

Edit: He bought used.

whimsicalism• 11 months ago

but it was used?

andsoitis2• 11 months ago

Mistake #1: He bought an EV.
You should never purchase EVs, only lease them. That's what I did. This saves you from the terrible depreciation they have.
The only time it makes sense to buy an EV is if it's used.

Coming in too hot, friend! The headline, and opening line, is that it is a used EV.

rjtavares• 11 months ago

Also, leasing does not prevent you from paying for the depreciation. It's just included in the fee.

kccqzy4• 11 months ago

He bought a used EV. The cost of depreciation is borne by the previous owner.

sejje• 11 months ago

He paid 17k and it's still a long way to zero.

4pkjai• 11 months ago

Regarding your last sentence, it seems like he did buy a used EV.

jstanley2• 11 months ago

How does leasing save you from depreciation? Surely the company leasing you the car has a good idea of what the depreciation will be, and they want to make money.

bluGill7• 11 months ago

That depends on what real depreciation is. Sometimes those experts get it wrong. This can be for or against you though.

the artile is a guy who drives his cars 'into the ground' - he wouldn't care about value he cares about how long it will run.

rootusrootus13• 11 months ago

Some of the manufacturers put a high residual on the lease because it moves vehicles. They'll presumably be losing money on the deal, eventually. But the nice thing about leasing is that you decide in advance what the depreciation is going to be, so you get to make it a certainty and base your decision on that.

conradev• 11 months ago

I still agree with OP in that purchasing an EV, used or not, is brutal with depreciation.

You can lease a used Tesla Model 3 for $5k/24mo. Say the used Leaf was $15k, it would need to be worth at least $10k in 2027.

prmoustache4• 11 months ago

From a purely economic point of view, buying a new car is always a bad idea, regardless of the drivetrain technology.

1970-01-014• 11 months ago

Exception being those buying new cars, leaving them in storage for a decade or two, and then selling them at auction for 10x.

eloisant9• 11 months ago

People who buy new cars don't do it for economic reasons, they do it so they can configure them exactly the way they want.

Even then, most individuals don't buy new cars. Most of the cars on the used market come from company cars, rentals, leasing...

dzhiurgis10• 11 months ago

Datapoint: once in a century pandemic event where car prices spiked and crashed back 2 years later

donatj• 11 months ago

Hmm, my friend had a 2015 Leaf, the interior seemed much nicer and more modern than this 2023 model.

There is no 'play/pause' button. Anywhere. At least not on the steering wheel or the display area. You have to go into the music section on the entertainment display, then press the software play/pause button. That's dumb.

My new to me 2023 Honda Odyssey has the same stupid issue. It's my first vehicle with a touch screen, and I have a lot of trouble hitting the pause button especially when I'm trying to mute it because I need to pay extra attention to the road. WHY is there not just a Play/Pause button on the wheel!? Or at least a physical button on the dashboard.

InsideOutSanta• 11 months ago

Fortunately, the play/pause button problem is easily solved. Aliexpress sells play/pause buttons. Search for something like "Auto Wireless Media Button". They connect via Bluetooth, you can stick them anywhere on your dashboard, and they use a button cell that lasts about a year. There are also ring-shaped ones you can attach to the steering wheel.

marcusb7• 11 months ago

Your friend probably had an SL-trimmed Leaf. The car in the video is an SV, which has cloth seats, etc. Interestingly, it looks like Nissan no longer offers the nicer trim levels for the Leaf, only S and SV PLus (at least as of 2025.)

wara23arish• 11 months ago

i think lowering the volume down to zero now constitutes as play/pause

i hate it too

dwood_dev• 11 months ago

On my 2021 Nissan Kicks, the volume knob is the only play/pause button. It's not a mute button only, it does pause your media coming through CarPlay.

Also, this is my last Nissan. I have been thoroughly disappointed with the super buggy and laggy head unit in this thing and it is apparently a common theme for Nissan.

My 2016 Ford with CarPlay was rock solid.

zoobab• 11 months ago

Not the cheapest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV

"In 2020, the Mini EV had a price starting at US$4,162, and topped out at US$5,607 for a fully loaded model, making it China's cheapest electric car."

lan321• 11 months ago

He's not in China though.

ForOldHack4• 11 months ago

Oh thank God. The cheapest EV in China is little more than a flashlight with a wind up propeller, (joking/not joking) but not as safe. No one it their right mind could compare it to a leaf to a tesla.

kccqzy4• 11 months ago

they shouldn't do 16 on a 15A circuit but it seems like some do

There are 20A 120V circuits too! Called NEMA 5-20, one of its prongs is rotated. You plug that into a receptacle where one of the slots is T-shaped instead of straight. And it's standard practice for EVs to draw 80% of the maximum current, so 16A it is. I see this plug in larger machines in the office, like a large photocopier or a large vacuum.

bluGill7• 11 months ago

Legaly kitchen and garrages need 20 amp circuits but they allow nema 5-15 outlets there.

geerlingguy11• 11 months ago

Most older homes (like mine) only had 5-15, so over time I've added a couple 20A circuits with the horizontal blade outlets.

dreamcompiler6• 11 months ago

I wish I could buy an electric kettle in the US that took advantage of the 20A outlets I have all over my house. Sigh.

kccqzy4• 11 months ago

You'd be better off buying a British kettle and using that on a 6-15 socket, if your goal is to boil water quicker.

fragmede3• 11 months ago

Get a Japanese water boiler. They keep the water at boiling in a reservoir, so it's already hot when you want it, no waiting.

rootusrootus13• 11 months ago

I just have a special tap at my kitchen sink that dispenses water at 195F. I cannot imagine waiting for a kettle. One of the most satisfying kitchen purchases I've ever made for a whopping $200.

jagermo• 11 months ago

Huh, i see a bunch of used Renault Zoes for about 5k or less in my area. I wonder if they hold up as well.

wazoox• 11 months ago

It depends. Zoés come in many flavours, with different sizes of battery (52kWh is the best, the same size as current Renault models R4 and R5), rented or bought (don't buy a Zoé with a rental battery!!!), and the CCS2 port is in option (no CCS-2 effectively means no day trip longer than full range, unless you have the 22kW AC option, but still... you'll need to find a 22 kW charger en route, not that easy).

Battery management on Zoés is fine ; it doesn't have the overheating problem that plagues the Leaf and the VW e-Up in particular; it doesn't have the "very slow charge when cold" problem of many cheap EVs with LiFePO4 batteries, though it charges up quite slowly (10-80% in 50 minutes).

Someone I know recently bought a 135HP 52kWh Zoé without CCS-2 and 22kW AC charge for 7500€. That's a real bargain, it'sequivalent for all practical purposes (but long travel) to a brand new 30000€ R5 :)

KaiserPro3• 11 months ago

Zoes are fine, so long as they have fast charge and are the last generation (52kwhr)

The software is pretty shit. Lagging and annoying. But apple/android play stops that.

As a car its smooth, quiet, and fast if you need to be. The only annoyance driving wise is that it doesn't have adaptive cruise control, and the reverse/drive/neutral switch always returns to the middle, so you can't tell what mode its set to without looking at it

yourusername• 11 months ago

A lot of Zoes i see for sale are with a rental or lease battery. So be sure to check if that 5k includes a battery or not.

jillesvangurp• 11 months ago

Electric Vehicle Man on Youtube did a review of a 2000 pound second hand Renault Zoe that he picked up a few weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEvwtxGeVpQ

The second hand market for EVs is getting pretty interesting. There are lots of EV owners that are replacing their EVs every few years and because of all the growth over the last 10 years, there are now quite a few fairly nice EVs on the second hand market. Many are typically still under drive train warranty. For example, the model 3 has only been on the market for about eight years and it came with eight years of warranty on the drive train. So, most of the second hand ones would still be under warranty. And most of the EV market only started growing after that. So this is true for many second hand EVs.

And car batteries don't seem to spontaneously stop working right after the warranty expires either. So the risk is fairly low. They'll eventually degrade. But if you can pick up a car for a few thousand and then drive it for another 5-10 years, who cares? The fuel savings alone pay for the car after just a few years. Add the savings on maintenance and you are basically in the plus.

actionfromafar• 11 months ago

Big Asterisk on the maintenance though.

blitzar2• 11 months ago

For £2,000 the maintenance plan is sending it to the scrap yard.

Gordon Gekko would buy it, break it into its constituent parts and sell them off for £5,000.

sillyfluke5• 11 months ago

Don't really follow the secondhand EV market, but it seems to me firsthand buyers are still taking on considerable risk due to the range situation. People who have bought them abroad are sometimes advised to keep the battery between 20%-80-90% full. Following this advice, one person I know told me if they drive like they did their old car they have to recharge after roughly 170 miles, which is super annoying for them if they're driving over 500 miles on a trip. They regret buying the car they bought. When and if there is a sudden jump in range innovation that reaches the entire market and not just flagship brands, I don't see how these cars driven now won't be dead weight or dirt cheap. It seems super risky to keep one of these cars more than a couple of years.

blitzar2• 11 months ago

recharge after roughly 170 miles ... these cars won't be dead weight or dirt cheap

The average car journey is 8 miles. Being an average with a finite lower limit of 0 it is skewed higher by the people who for various reasons drive long distances.

You don't need a 1,000 mile range to get to the shops at the end of the street. It helps, but not that much.

masklinn12• 11 months ago

People who have bought them abroad are sometimes advised to keep the battery between 20%-80-90% full.

You want to keep batteries roughly in that range to maximise their lifetime health. That doesn't mean the battery will explode if you do otherwise once in a while e.g. you charge limit the car to 80% for your daily drive and before a big trip you charge to 100%.

Route planners will generally keep you in that band anyway because charging speeds fall off a cliff as charge exceeds 80~90% (depending on the manufacturer's usable % standard), and it's rarely worth wasting 30mn charging to full to save 5~10mn extra at the next stop (the same occurs to a lower extent at very low states of charge, plus you want some spare, so the lower 10% are generally treated as a reserve).

formerly_proven4• 11 months ago

When and if there is a sudden jump in range innovation that reaches the entire market and not just flagship brands

I've read/heard about this innovation coming to the market in six months every few weeks for about ten years and it has never materialized. There are continuous, slight and consistent improvements to battery technology which add up over time, but none of the wunderwaffe battery technologies ever materialized into the market and produced any huge jumps.

stavros3• 11 months ago

I keep the car at 20-80% when at home and driving around the city, I charge once a week. Before a trip, I let it charge to 100%, then charge to 80% on the trip (otherwise you waste time on the slow parts of the charge cycle).

It's really not a hassle at all. What's a hassle right now is finding a charger, as there aren't enough fast ones along the trip, but I've had the car for a year and have never needed to do a trip that long yet.

marcusb7• 11 months ago

I've driven an EV on 500 mile trips. Getting out and stretching your legs for 20-25 minutes once every three hours isn't "super annoying." If all I did was drive around all day, every day for 500 miles at a stretch, it might be, but not nearly as annoying as routinely driving for 500 miles.

For most people, the vast majority of their driving takes place well within the range of the typical BEV and range anxiety is a total non-issue. The fact is, even accounting for the occasional long trip, I spend less time at charging stations than I did at gas stations when I owned an ICE car, because the vast majority of the time, I just plug the car in at my house and let it do its thing.

elif• 11 months ago

I did a 6500 mile ev road trip and battery capacity means next to nothing. All that matters is the charging curve between 3% and 60%. Literally all other variables disappear over a road trip.

KaiserPro3• 11 months ago

Yeah that was basically my assesment.

I bought a second hand Zoe in the UK mainly because they are so common, which means parts should be still around for a while yet.

the leaf was an option, and I could have bought and upgraded the battery on an old one, but I think on balance the zoe was a better purchase for the same combined price. (for me, your mileage may vary)

In terms of practicality, for where I live (suburban, edge of a large city) it works perfectly well. We also fairly regularly do longer journeys, assuming its not getaway rush hour, charging is fine on motorways and crucially getting better

gambiting3• 11 months ago

We bought a VW e-Up here in the UK for the same reason - it shares all non-drivetrain parts with regular Ups so spare parts should be available forever and it's a very easy car to work on. Its easy 120-150 mile range is perfect for day to day use, I just charge it at home overnight. And I actually took it on a trip to the lake district few weeks back, no problem at all - 30 minute stop at a fast charger on the M6 both ways gave me way more juice than needed to get to my destinations. And it has an 8 year warranty on the battery, and VW lets me extend the main warranty for £200 a year, and a service is only due once ever 2 years and costs £90. What's not to like lol.

ACCount37• 11 months ago

Always check if that suspiciously cheap second hand EV you're buying had active battery cooling.

A lot of the crap like the early Nissan Leafs didn't. And between that and the first gen EV battery pack design being shit in general, the battery pack just cooks itself. Its capacity falls off a cliff over time. This is where a lot of those early concerns about EV battery packs being hideously expensive consumables was coming from.

If the battery pack is actively cooled, then, as a rule, it ages gracefully. If not? Oh boy.

t_tsonev• 11 months ago

This is not a general rule and many non-cooled and air-cooled batteries can hold up pretty well. The battery cooling becomes a limiting factor for DC charging, especially if multiple charging sessions are required per trip.

The Leaf limited battery life is mainly to its battery chemistry (LMO), although it arguably doesn't go to great lengths to ensure thermal stability of the pack.

Bairfhionn• 11 months ago

My Problem was always the Range Anxiety.

Until I got an EV and realized it's not really an issue. There is always an App for that (and even on my car the software gets improved in that regard).

Infrastructure is getting better, even companies starting to see it as a benefit to have cheap/free chargers at their offices to get people back.

I see more and more electric trucks on the roads. It feels good.

PaulKeeble• 11 months ago

I think until you have one you don't realise quite what having a range of 200+ miles means in practice. You don't actually drive for 500 miles without a break, that is 8-10 hours of constant motorway speed driving and its not safe to drive that long. So when you take 30 - 60 minutes for lunch on a long drive like that and charge the vehicle you are going another 200 miles before again really taking a break. As it stands the breaks will have to be a bit longer than you might like and it could add 30 minutes to your journey but that is about it for most people.

The other part that not a lot of people realise is if your journey is 300 miles and your car does 200 you don't charge another 200 miles into the battery, you charge 100 and then charge at the destination instead. With ICE vehicles if your going to get fuel typically you fuel it to the top but you don't do that with battery cars you want to charge them as little as possible while mid travelling and charge them while they are sat still at home or destination.

Its charging at home that really changes the experience too. The weekly trip to the fuel station disappears, depending on how often you exceed the range of the car you only really get exposed to the charging network and times when doing those journeys, you spend a lot less of your life in fuel stations!

hellisothers• 11 months ago

I would add one thing my family has complained about wrt road trip charging is it’s not just the time you wait to charge, it’s the time and games/anger dealing with all the people in line waiting to charge.

richwater• 11 months ago

that is 8-10 hours of constant motorway speed driving and its not safe to drive that long

[citation needed] considering plenty of people do it all the time (truck drivers)

laughing_man2• 11 months ago

I agree with you on the drive time. A buddy of mine has a Model X, and he occasionally will make the 400 mile drive to visit. He stops about halfway to stretch his legs and eat lunch, the same thing he did when he had an ICE powered SUV. The only difference is now the car is charging while he eats.

NegativeK• 11 months ago

I have a 300 mile range EV, and some of my friends also downplay charging on road trips. It seems to be a common narrative. I find it patently false. When I drove long distances in an gas car, I didn't take breaks to stretch my legs. I want to get to my destination earlier and have the driving be done.

I find EV charging on road trips to be annoying, and I can't wait until technology improves to the point where I don't have to worry about missing a charging station and being hosed and I don't have to worry about adding an hour to an hour and a half onto a road trip.

I think that gas vehicles are irresponsible for most uses and the charging at home makes having an EV great, but gas vehicles are better at road trips if only for the fact that those of us who don't want to take longer don't have to.

angarg122• 11 months ago

We drove from Seattle to SF and back on a Model 3, and I would say there were only a couple of situations where I wish we could keep driving instead of recharging. Otherwise almost all breaks for charging aligned with breaks to go to the toilet, eat, walk the dog, or simply have a rest.

Definitely a very minor inconvenience. And, compared with frequent trips to the gas station vs charging at home overnight, a total net positive in time saved (if you want to measure it that way).

fusslo• 11 months ago

is there a term like 'charge anxiety'?

I was debating an electric vehicle in 2023. There are maybe 10 people (out of about 200) at work that have electric cars. My teammate is one of the ten. He wakes up early to get a charger. He tracks down the other owners to ask them to use the charger after lunch. They started a group chat about the chargers.

My local grocery store has a bank of superchargers right in the middle of the parkinglot next to the main road. Some days the bank is full and teslas hang out waiting, but they have to wait half in the road to make sure they're close enough to be next in line.

My apartment complex has 2 chargers, and we get people coming in who don't live in the complex to use them. People wait next to the strangers to be sure to get the charger before walking home for the night.

This kind of social interaction and situations gives me huge anxiety.

I get gas once a week, dont wait in line, always works, don't talk to anyone, and I'm gone in less than 5 minutes.

ruperthair2• 11 months ago

I have the same issue with a lack of charging at home, and totally identify with what you say here. The lack of an organised queue (could be in the provider's app, rather than a physical one) at oversubscribed charging stations is the worst thing about EV driving for me.

decimalenough• 11 months ago

EV charging is hassle-free if and only if you have a home charger, which typically means you have to own a house as well.

Workplace charging gets extra competitive because it's often free, meaning all sorts of bad behavior is incentivized. It's weird how wound up people with $50,000 cars can get about $5 in free electricity.

jgilias• 11 months ago

I only got an EV after getting a house for this exact reason. I really like EVs, but I wouldn’t buy one, if I don’t have a convenient place for routine charging.

An apartment complex being built next door offers you to buy a parking lot together with the apartment, and optionally equip it with an EV charger. This is the way.

joeyh• 11 months ago

I have driven 20 thousand EV miles in the past year, with 50% of my charging being at public chargers (and 50% at home). I have never needed to wait in line, and have never needed to interact with anyone regarding charging.

dreamcompiler6• 11 months ago

EVs make less sense for people who don't have a dedicated home or work charger. But if you're lucky enough to have one, EVs make a great deal of sense.

jopsen2• 11 months ago

Stayed at my parents for a week where we had to use public chargers.

It wasn't great, even if we had no queues and fast chargers 5 minutes away. In some parts of Denmark I suspect charging infrastructure is overbuilt.

But even with good infrastructure, having to drive to a charger and wait 10-15 minutes is a hassle.

Charging at home is the killer feature. You just always have 80% charge by default.

dboreham3• 11 months ago

Otoh my experience has been that random strangers who are charging EVs are much nicer than the average, and are often quite interesting to talk to. I hadn't expected this.

maerF0x02• 11 months ago

I've realized this for myself, based on me getting ~350miles from a ICE per tank, and only filling about once ever 3-4 weeks. It's clear that for like 99.99% of my driving miles are easily in EV Range, or even plugin hybrids. Which is why my next car probably will be the later. However at only driving 350 miles per month, plus the occasional road trip, I estimate my current car will last 10 more years or more.

Fourier864• 11 months ago

When I bought my Leaf last year, I actually didn't have range anxiety because I assumed the infrastructure was better than it actually was. But I'm shocked that at most places I drive to don't even have a charging station, and if they do it's like 2 spots that are both full.

And I definitely didn't factor in skiing, my favorite mountain has 4 charging stations in one of the hotel's parking lots.

masklinn12• 11 months ago

Lack of standards: For 'L3' DC Fast Charging, the Leaf has a CHAdeMO port. Teslas and many newer EVs have NACS. Then there's CCS1 and CCS2. And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your tank, and squeeze.

Afaik in Europe, CCS2 is the standard (and mandatory these days), when I rented an EV a few weeks back there was no location which didn’t have it. And all the spots I tried charging at except Tesla accepted card payment (though there were a pair of times it was a struggle getting a card to work).

Apps / memberships will get you cheaper prices but that’s about all I saw (and I didn’t bother with any of it).

TBH the only things that annoyed me were implementation issues of the car (a polestar 4) as well as how overly wide it is. And that the rental company (AVIS) does not provide an AC adapter, so I was not able to charge at any wallplug even though I had the opportunity to charge the car at least twice over in all (I will likely purchase one if that remains their policy and I rent more EVs).

All this is modulo it being summer and a pretty long range model so range anxiety was present but reasonably limited.

lucideer2• 11 months ago

Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based, but I still really felt he could've highlighted that fact more in that charging port standards section.

The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge. So much so even Tesla switched to CCS2. This doesn't help Jeff but certainly one less problem for many readers of his article.

Ambroos• 11 months ago

It's IEC 62196-2 Type 2 (Mennekes) and CCS2 in Europe. J1772 is the North American standard that is used in CCS1.

masklinn12• 11 months ago

Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based

That was obvious from the article but given they specifically mentioned CCS2 bundled with the mess that is US charging I thought important to point that (anecdotally) the situations are quite distinct. Both in terms of charging hardware and payment.

Hamuko2• 11 months ago

Go to your local Mitsubishi dealership in Europe and you will find the 2025 Outlander PHEV with a CHAdeMO plug. And I believe if you buy a pre-2019 Tesla Model S or Model X, you will have to deal with Tesla's own plug.

rsynnott8• 11 months ago

The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge.

Funnily enough, not for the Leaf! Though it will be on the third generation that's coming out this year. The second-gen Leaf (a ten year old design, at this point) that the author of the article bought doesn't have it. The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_; manufacturers can still sell cars without it, though I think Nissan may be the only remaining one who _does_.

WorldMaker4• 11 months ago

Yeah, the US is in the slow market-based processes of standardizing towards NACS (which is CCS2 protocols over what used to be just Tesla's plug). It's not as standard as the EU has committed to, but with Tesla's charging network having a big first mover advantage in North America, it sometimes feels close.

ZeroGravitas4• 11 months ago

It's not a lack of standards, it was an early proliferation of standards.

Chademo is still standard in Japan.

Also, given his comparison to the ease of the old way, in Europe at least it's fairly standard to know someone who has filled their hire car with diesel (or not diesel) by mistake. They have warning stickers on the filler flap because it happens so often.

Meanwhile knowing someone who uses the inexplicably more expensive premium fuel option also offered is maybe rarer.

Maybe EV-owning car reviewers should counter the FUD by pretending to be confused by these, always using the most expensive one in price comparisons and then breaking the car completely by using the wrong one during their test drive, like the many propaganda pieces put out about EVs.

masklinn12• 11 months ago

A big difference is that if you go to a gas station you’ll have both (and possibly more). At least in Europe. So while you need to fill with the right fuel unless the pump is broken or the tanks are empty the fuel you need will be available.

In the US, if you roll up to a random charging station you may or may not find a plug matching your car’s port.

close04• 11 months ago

You can’t easily/accidentally fill a petrol car with diesel. The diesel nozzle is too wide. Other way around is easier. But this is the drawback of ancient standards grandfathered in over a century. EVs don’t have this legacy to carry around.

stavros3• 11 months ago

I can confirm that, here in Greece, everything is CCS2. There are also CHAdeMO ports here and there, but I don't know what car uses those.

However, I haven't seen a station that takes card yet (or they don't advertise it). They all have their own app, which is inconvenient and a hassle.

fifilura3• 11 months ago

but I don't know what car uses those

It is exactly this kind of Nissan Leaf. Japanese older generation cars. Enough around to still be available, but I think it is slowly disappearing. After that only 6kW (32A/single phase) charging will be available for these cars.

magicalhippo5• 11 months ago

And that the rental company (AVIS) does not provide an AC adapter

Here in Norway, new EVs are no longer allowed to be sold with AC adapters, due to the potential fire hazard. At least that's the reason I got when I purchased my current EV.

Perhaps a EU thing, wouldn't surprise me.

dreamcompiler6• 11 months ago

This surprises me, given that almost every country has safer electric plugs than the US. Heat is a function of current and car chargers limit themselves to less than the current the plug is rated for. "Less than" equals 80% in the US.

NewJazz2• 11 months ago

Norway is not in the EU.

kingstnap• 11 months ago

This seems like the kind of regulation that causes more harm than it saves in anyone's house actually burning down. I did a cursory search and didn't find any EU reports of a house fire caused by a L1 charger.

Sure you might burn a house down if you find one that has a plug which isn't correctly installed with loose connectors but the fire risk here wasn't the EV. Its the incorrectly installed wiring.

You don't tell people to get rid of their fridges because some people might have forgetten to plug theirs in and therefore they could get food poisoning from spoiled food inside.

throwawaymaths• 11 months ago

norway is in the EU? did i miss something?

krzyk2• 11 months ago

It is a Norway thing, I read it some time ago that they forbid chargin using AC adapters.

Tesla on the other hand doesn't include AC adapter in newly sold cars (since about a year).

philjohn3• 11 months ago

Might be - also, in the UK at least where most houses are on a TN-C-S electric supply (earth and neutral are the same conductor) if there's a break on the neutral and you don't have an earthing rod (PEN fault) the car can be at high voltage compared to true earth, and you can get a lethal shock if you touch it. There are roughly 500 of these faults a year across the UK.

Level 2 chargers here either need PEN fault protection built in, or you need a correctly sized earthing rod installed.

msh6• 11 months ago

In many countries charging a car in a wallplug is a fire hazard (they are not rated for the heat).

throwaway-blaze• 11 months ago

This doesn't make sense. Wall plugs (like circuit breakers) are designed for a particular max amperage draw. If I have a 10A 120V circuit and wall plug, I can't charge my car at 8A?

I have wall ovens that connect via a 50A circuit. Do I need to worry about fire hazards when I bake something for hours and hours?

barbazoo3• 11 months ago

Source?

goldchainposse• 11 months ago

I understand how the US and EU have different electrical outlets, voltages and frequencies. The systems developed independently, standardized on compatible versions locally, and standardizing globally would be very expensive and almost impossible to do safely.

I don't understand how North America and Europe settled on different EV charging plugs.

herbst4• 11 months ago

I don't know how it is in the US but there is no one standard charging port here in Europe.

Symbiote5• 11 months ago

Three-phase power is ubiquitous in Europe, my oven and stove are connected to it yet this is a small apartment. The slightly larger plug (to fit the extra pins) and extra cables are worthwhile for the higher power and balanced consumption.

darknavi• 11 months ago

CCS1/2 (DC Fast charging) and J1772 (AC "Slow" charging) share a port on most cars. That is, the CCS plug uses the entire plug and the J1772 part uses just the upper portion of the plug.

The AC "slow" charging in the US only needs to support two-phase power (residential power is two phase) and the EU (and others?) generally need to support three-phase power.

NACS is just better in North America (versus CCS1) because it's smaller and much easier to physically handle, but the AC "slow" charging pinning only supports two phase power.

boznz2• 11 months ago

I also rented a Jeep Avenger EV a few weeks back in the UK, several smaller, out of the way vendors still required their specific App and where contactless payments were an option it more expensive at around 80 to 90 pence per KWH. A week into the hire I found I could use my Tesla app and the supercharger network to charge my rental and the max there is only 51 pence per KWH and the supercharger network is expansive just works. An EV is a good option for the UK if you prefer automatics or EV's I will certainly hire one again.

vel0city5• 11 months ago

It's funny he mentions Buc-ees, as on the last couple of road trips with my non-Tesla EV buc-ees was a common charging stop where it was just pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card.

In fact, I haven't had to use an app for a DCFC in several years. They either work with plug and charge or take payment directly on the dispenser.

mschuster917• 11 months ago

And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your tank, and squeeze.

The "how to juice your car" question is pretty much solved on the electrical and communications side... but the "how do you pay for the juice" question is indeed absurd. I understand that providers of high capacity charging stations wish to charge a bit extra because a single 200 kW+ DC charger quickly reaches 40k € in pure hardware cost, in addition to the installation cost and the regular swapping of cables due to thieves. But why the EU and the US governments haven't stepped in yet and mandated either a "roaming" standard (where my primary billing contact would be a regular electric utility with a set base price per kWh and optional surcharges for high-capacity chargers or stations in high demand) or acceptance of all common credit and debit cards is way beyond me.

Instead, it's not just multiple vendors, apps and payment methods - it's also a (sometimes wild) difference in price depending on how you pay, at the same station. In contrast, at each gas station there is a sign that's visible from afar stating the exact price for your fuel, with the only thing one might hope for is a 1 cent discount for high volume diesel fuel pumps (aka, your truck's hole is big enough to fit a truck diesel nozzle) and a further 1 cent discount from some sort of loyalty reward scheme.

padjo2• 11 months ago

Fixing the payments thing has been addressed by the EU as far as I know: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_...

mschuster917• 11 months ago

Unfortunately, only partially [1]:

- card acceptance is only required for 50 kW+ chargers. All the relatively low power chargers at supermarkets, shopping malls and other public venues? They can get by with offering QR codes that are all too often abused for phishing campaigns [2][3] and still have the issue with requiring some sort of app.

- the "card acceptance" may also be fulfilled by PSD2 compliant mobile banking apps, so if you got a rooted phone (where Google Pay is a cat-and-mouse game), a phone whose vendor is under sanctions and thus doesn't get the Google ecosystem or don't want to involve Google Pay, Apple Pay, PayPal or the likes in your daily life, you're screwed just as well at these charger points

On top of that, the standard to publish pricing information to the public coordination exchange is a hot XML/SOAP mess [4].

[1] https://nationale-leitstelle.de/ladeinfrastruktur-im-eu-kont...

[2] https://www.adac.de/news/verkehr-quishing-parkautomaten/

[3] https://www.adac.de/news/auto-quishing-betrug-ladesaeule/

[4] https://nationale-leitstelle.de/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/M...

T-1000• 11 months ago

I was too optimistic about card payments when I went on vacation with my electric car in EU this summer. In some countries it worked perfectly but in other countries I had to scan a QR code, which usually ended up in an "sorry, there was an error" page. When I eventually started using a charging network the rest of the vacation was great.

Okkef2• 11 months ago

Nice, we did the same recently.

The choice was

  2016 100k km Golf Plus for 16k eur 
  2020 50k  km e-Golf    for 13k eur

I'm so glad we picked the e-golf! It's so fast and nice to drive and cheap to run. Only downside is the limited range (200km on a summer day) but even my commute (100km one-way) is OK as I can charge at work and home.

That said, we still have a Touran for when we need to drive further or with lots of luggage.

If only the chairs in the eGolf were a bit better...

ahartmetz• 11 months ago

Bad seats in a VW? Yeah, I guess they really saved too much on the interior in that generation.

Marsymars2• 11 months ago

My parents have a SportWagen with various extra cushions on the seats because they find them so uncomfortable.

haunter2• 11 months ago

If that were me then for that much money I'd just buy a used Tesla Model 3

Okkef2• 11 months ago

A used tesla model 3 in the Netherlands is upwards of 20k euro, so quite a different price bracket.

seszett• 11 months ago

For many people in Europe, Tesla is just out of question now.

liendolucas• 11 months ago

Looks like you bought a faulty computer which happens to have 4 wheels buddy.

The neutral and parking brake issues: that just by itself should make Nissan stocks plummet. 2025 and we have these issues? It definitely looks an involution to me.

Things we humans are still lame at: adapters. Power adapters, cable data adapters. Why do we have bazillions adapters?

Can't we just design one adapter for the whole world that makes happy both manufacturers and customers? If not governments should step in and force manufacturers to include all adapters ever needed as part of a car purchase. That you have to spend more money just to charge a car because of the adapter is ridiculous.

If EVs are in this line of quality/user experience in general, thanks I'll pass and get something reliable and old school that actually works as expected.

Edit: And we don't need mobile apps to control our cars. Another really stupid and ridiculous idea that has been pushed to customers when no-one actually asked for that.

numpad03• 11 months ago

EU solved it years ago by mandating CCS2. Even Tesla in EU uses that plug and reportedly just works, except Tesla have no access to DCFC without carrying an adapter because they adamantly reject Combo2. I believe China does the same, only stricter, and some of Model S/X in China reportedly has fuel doors to fit the port.

As if regulations work. They seem to have very strange situations over there.

rsynnott8• 11 months ago

Strictly speaking, the EU only mandates CCS2 on _chargers_; the second gen Leaf sold in Europe didn't have CCS2, though I think it was about the last car not to have it.

bluGill7• 11 months ago

Everyone in the us has now agreed to use teslas NACS so this problem will go away with new cars over the next 5 years or so. If you have an older car good luck. And many parking garrages won't update their chargers. Still with NACS and ev's taking off you will see a lot more chargers going up as investors try to get this new market for charging:

sitharus2• 11 months ago

What is the neutral issue? It sounds annoying to switch in to, but when do you even need neutral in an EV? The reasons I’ve needed it while driving ICE cars aren’t there in an EV, because it’s the same as the car being off.

Come to think of it, I have no idea how to get my car in to neutral.

illegalsmile2• 11 months ago

I don't know about the neutral issue... The only time I use the neutral is to go through an automatic car wash. Hold the brake and push the selector to the left/neutral for ~3 seconds.

GeoAtreides• 11 months ago

Am I blind or he doesn't the mention the price anywhere in the post?!

geerlingguy11• 11 months ago

Sorry, just added that data towards the end.

cillian64• 11 months ago

The trick with neutral in the leaf is that you have to hold the gear selector in the neutral direction for about a second. No relation to brake pedal timing as far as I can tell. No idea why neutral has that delay given none of the other “gears” do.

potato37328423• 11 months ago

Because neutral isn't a thing they expect the lowest common denominator consumer the car is designed to be usable for to be using on the daily so they gate it behind some stupid extra motions.

It's like a "lite" version of how some cars make you enter a stupid cheat code to reset your oil change reminder or some other thing that should just be in settings.

usui• 11 months ago

How can you write "I bought the cheapest EV" in the blog title, and have a section called "Why buy Leaf?" followed by a one-liner zinger aphorism "Price." without writing... the price you bought your used Nissan Leaf for? Someone might want to reference how much it cost back in 2025 a few years down the road.

anotheryou• 11 months ago

I skimmed for way to long to realize it's just not in there...

geerlingguy11• 11 months ago

$17k minus an extra $2k added to my Camry's trade-in value, and it's eligible for the $4k used vehicle EV tax rebate at the end of the year. So out the door $15k with 36k miles and 94% doh battery, I was satisfied with the deal.

At the end of the tax year I'll have paid $11k for the car, effectively.

I tacked on the price of the CHAdeMO adapter mentally to the price I offered, since I knew I'd want it for the one or two regional road trips I take per year.

dzhiurgis10• 11 months ago

Could've bought Model 3 for this and spend $300 for third party buttons. It has software thats actually somewhat hackable and car is far more capable. But I understand it's hard to recommend Tesla these days lol.

pbronez• 11 months ago

BMW i3 are going for about the same.

brightball2• 11 months ago

The deals on used electric vehicles are pretty shocking.

Used Chevy Volts are actually more expensive now than they were a few years back, at least on the CarMax website. Maybe a higher price because they were discontinued but I used to love my Volt. Averaged 150mpg over 3 years.

arbuge• 11 months ago

Re: the tax credit, note the income requirements here:

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-cr...

I don't know anything about your situation, but I'm guessing quite a bit of the readers here on HN from the US won't qualify.

leesec• 11 months ago

kind of nuts since a used tesla is within 5k of this

bradly• 11 months ago

For another data point... I purchased a used 2011 Leaf for $5k a few years ago and still use it as my daily driver. It gets between ~50-70 miles per change and charges incredibly slow, but I'm been happy with it.

bapak3• 11 months ago

I'll have paid $11k for the car, effectively.

No you have not. You have paid $11k + a whole working car to get that one. I also can get a new iPhone every year "for only $500" if you consider the real price being "only $500 plus a year-old perfectly-working iPhone"

__mharrison__• 11 months ago

Not to be rude but I'm surprised you qualified for the tax credit...

loloquwowndueo• 11 months ago

You could jump into your local used car listing site and check for yourself.

In here a used 2022 leaf goes for about $20-22K CAD. 2016 models go as low as $8K - those had a range of about 120km when new.

dzhiurgis10• 11 months ago

In NZ you can get a Leaf for $1-2k, about 50km range remaining.

prmoustache4• 11 months ago

and I found myself with a very short commute, only driving a few miles a day, and a family minivan we use for nearly all the 'driving around the kids' stuff. So I wanted a smaller car (get back a foot or so of garage space...) that was also more efficient.

All this to say what he really needs was an electrically assisted bicycle instead of a huge and heavy energy wasting vehicle.

geerlingguy11• 11 months ago

Bike would be amazing if the city I live in weren't a death trap for bikes. I had considered it but I do need a way to get 10-20 miles for things like kids' events or to pick up things from stores for my YT work, at least once or twice a week.

prmoustache4• 11 months ago

I've transported large stuff with my bike mind you, including furnitures and a small tree (in a trailer) and 20 miles is smaller than my longest commute on my bicycle which was 24miles each way.

And that was without electric assist. When I look at the low average speed and time spent in car when I use one in an urban area, it just doesn't make any sense in most cities.

But the safety issue is another story though. Every time I relocated I took that parameter into account before choosing a new place.

zubiaur• 11 months ago

Some cities have seasons. Some cities lack bike infra. Some people don't like bikes.

girvo• 11 months ago

I agree with the ugly comments, which is why I went with the Cupra Born (2024)! It’s like a sporty space egg and I love it haha

quitit3• 11 months ago

Something which this article highlights is the lack of reliable rail in the USA.

Where I am there is a decent rail network, and the rail provider has a fleet of EVs for rent, where the cost of the electricity is included. This provides a "green" last mile solution even if the public transport itself in each area may be lacking (often it's not however).

So a trip looks like this:

Hop on the train which quickly takes the lion's-share of the travelling distance, then switch to an EV that fills the gap to the final destination/s. Then do this process in reverse to get home.

This approach solves the largest problems presented by the author.

1970-01-014• 11 months ago

High speed rails would involve large scale manufacturing and long-term planning. This is the one thing the US simply cannot do anymore (unless it's military, then they will make 300ish in a decade)

quitit3• 11 months ago

High speed rail is definitely not a requirement. Ordinary trains are still faster than driving.

What the USA lacks is a robust network. The spread of rail is too thin to be useful for everyday use.

mangecoeur• 11 months ago

As European it really struck me how poor the second hand ev market must be in the US. For the “cheap second hand car to do short distances” we have a lot of options really cheap - older gen Renault Zoe and Peugeot e208s, leafs, even the old hyundai Ioniq which is a bit of a cult favourite for its efficiency

ponector4• 11 months ago

I don't think it's an EV issue. It's rather "How poor the second hand small car market must be in the US". I guess alternatives in the same class in US are only two cars: Fiat 500 and Yaris.

bluGill7• 11 months ago

If you buy used cars you are limited to what someone else bought 3 or more years ago. new didn't have many options then. Even now there are not many good options for a new car buyer but most niches have something. I wanted an used id.buzz, but that won't be an option for 2 more years and so I'm stuck with the current minivan. my truck is dieing and a silverado could do but I can't afford payments on it new so again 2 more years and I need something else in the meantime.

eloisant9• 11 months ago

Gas is cheap in US, so they have less incentives to buy EVs to start with.

lowwave• 11 months ago

They seem to not require an Internet connection for their cars

That would be the only reason to get that car now days! Can the car just drive without Internet. I want my car to be my not connected to cloud for all kinds crap.

1970-01-014• 11 months ago

Its fun to witness EVs living up to their original promise. Yes, the 1st generation of EVs without battery heating and cooling were mostly disposable experiments to catch-up with Tesla. That much is fact. However, the late model, new-wave of EVs (with proper battery technology) have crushed every excuse, except for variety.

matthewaveryusa2• 11 months ago

I literally bought the cheapest EV:

400 dollars for a 2012 nissan leaf with 80% battery life and 80k miles (saved from being junked.)

MA taxes and delivery made it about 1k when it was all said and done. Insurance is 400/year.

We fit 3 kid seats in the back and have replaced all our metropolitan rides with the nissan. Ostensibly we are all < 6ft tall otherwise the 3 seats wouldn't work.

Our range is 60 miles in the summer, 50 in the winter. Because of how we use it a regular 15 amp plug works for us. Any long trip is taken with our 2018 honda HRV + Thule.

I've been monitoring the usage of our gas car and financially it makes more sense for us to rent a gas car for our trips rather than pay for the ownership + insurance of our car. The math on yearly ownership of the gas car is:

555 treasury yield when selling the car (15000 * 0.05 on a 30 less 30% taxes), 1200 insurance, 200 yearly maintenance (oil changes, amortized tires...), 375 excise tax, 40 inspection

That's about 2.2k/year or about 4 weeks of rental for an SUV. We're still holding on to the gas car for the impromptu apple picking/beach day/day trip that sets us over the 50 mile radius, but zipcar could fill that void

plopz• 11 months ago

is your excise tax really 375? my 2014 honda civic is only $50

kjkjadksj2• 11 months ago

Registration is usually far higher with EVs because they aren’t paying into gas taxes that go towards road work.

matthewaveryusa2• 11 months ago

Ah you're right, it's 50, I was looking at my 2020 bill

yellow_lead• 11 months ago

How'd you find that? If it was being junked, then did you need to make repairs?

dreamcompiler6• 11 months ago

I want an EV that looks like a Camry. Just blend in and don't stand out.

The Camry has a drag coefficient of about 0.36.

The Leaf is about 0.28.

https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Vehicle_Coefficient_of_Drag_List

Drag coefficient matters a lot for EVs. Air resistance reduces the range of all cars, but you notice the decrease in an EV. (When I plan a long trip, I use windy.com to see if I'll have a headwind or a tailwind and I plan accordingly.)

That's why EVs look different. And why EV trucks often have terrible range, even though they have more room for batteries.

ForOldHack4• 11 months ago

Agree. Drag coefficient is significant as well as waxing. I think almost almost a clear third was due to waxing. And it really is not that hard to do once a week.

loeg6• 11 months ago

The coefficient isn't what matters; it's CdA (coefficient of drag times frontal area). (And what it matters for is efficiency at highway speeds.) Like, my Kia EV9 has a Cd of 0.28, but the frontal area of a schoolbus. My mi/kWh at highway speeds is much worse than what an electrified Camry with a 0.36 Cd would get.

Something the size of a Camry would be totally fine as an EV. Lucid Air is approximately this shape and is a great EV.

(And at lower speeds, drivetrain and tire friction become bigger factors.)

dreamcompiler6• 11 months ago

CHAdeMO is Betamax all over again. It's the best standard because it supports bidirectional power flow, which theoretically allows EVs to support the grid during demand spikes.

But if course CHAdeMO is dying. NACS is second best because it's less bulky than CCS, and NACS is winning in the US so the situation is less bad than it might have been.

qwerpy• 11 months ago

My electric truck supports bidirectional power flow through NACS. Currently only usable with Tesla-specific vehicle and hardware, but the connector itself does support it. It was very useful during a few multi-day power outages.

ForOldHack4• 11 months ago

Good job. I have driven ( for at least 2 trips ) a TeslaS a TeslaX, a Leaf, and EV-1... The Leaf was the easiest to use the regenerative breaking, and the very most efficient at it. Using the 80Mile model, and hand waxing the outside ( a favorite of the 100Mpg Prius group ) I was able to go 69.5 Miles, with 22% remaining. 28% more efficient than rated. This was a mostly highway traveled trip, with a bunch of city errand running at the end.

Both I and the owner were very impressed. They ordered the 100mile battery pack, which was very expensive, but it has been great in the long run.

I think it was like 81% cheaper than a gasoline trip at the time not including long term wear and tear. ( Ware and Tare?$#).

I think the Nissan Leaf is the very best of the bunch.

syassami• 11 months ago

They're good for cheap ev conversions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC_xLe306M8&t=1174s fun watch.

tinyhouse• 11 months ago

I was thinking about buying the leaf but I have a 2012 Honda Fit and my monthly gas expense is so cheap that I didn't bother. I use the car often but for mainly short drives within the city.

declan_roberts4• 11 months ago

I drove a 2015 Nissan Leaf for almost 10 years before upgrading this year to a Model Y.

When it comes to charging network Tesla is SO MUCH BETTER. It's hard to describe how much of a wild west other charging networks are. You have to download this app or that app, add a credit card here, add one there. De-rated charging handles absolutely everywhere.

NewJazz2• 11 months ago

Can't believe it took them 10 years to add CCS1.

runjake• 11 months ago

CCS1 for others who are curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System

tonymet11• 11 months ago

aren't they all dumping it for NACS in North America?

tonymet11• 11 months ago

Tesla and Apple understand that the charger elegance and design is more important than the strict engineering requirements.

NACS is theoretically a worse charger, but it's more approachable to consumers.

CCS1 is clumsy , heavy and makes the car look like it's attached to an umbilical cord.

That's why they had to dump it.

regnull2• 11 months ago

To be fair, non-Tesla networks are catching up. I moved from Tesla to BMW i4 (I had a quite significant disagreement with Elon when it comes to international politics), and I was worried about finding non-Tesla charges. I took a few long distance trips so far (US Northeast), and I had zero problems. Plus, if you are lucky, you get 2 year free charging from BMW, and they've enabled plug-and-charge recently. So, you just plugin, charge and drive away, mostly for free. Not bad.

tonymet11• 11 months ago

which networks/providers are good?

tonymet11• 11 months ago

I wrote this exact comment above. It's just insane when I hear how 3rd party chargers work. And I personally check charger pricing while I'm out and about. at least 30% are broken among the ones I find.

jampa• 11 months ago

And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods.

I rented a PHEV in Spain, and this was the biggest issue. Every charger has an app. They want all your information, even your home address, before charging. Most of them error out after you try to make it work in the 44 °C / 110 °F Spanish sun.

After trying five charging apps and only succeeding in one, I gave up charging completely because of the horrible experience. I wonder why EVs don't save credit information in the vehicle and negotiate payment with them via some sort of "Cable API" or something. Or even you know, use tap to pay PoS like every normal transaction does.

duskwuff• 11 months ago

"Plug and charge" is a thing, and is supported by some vehicles and charging stations. Unfortunately, it's not universal (yet), but the standards are there.

cheema33• 11 months ago

This is my experience as well with regular EV chargers. Tesla chargers on the other hand work seamlessly and reliably. You walk up, you plug it in and it works. No fuss.

rsynnott8• 11 months ago

The EU has finally fixed this, though only mandatory for chargers installed _after_ the regulation: https://electrek.co/2023/07/11/europe-passes-two-big-laws-to...

vachina• 11 months ago

When I did a roadtrip with a rented PHEV I just charged every night with the power plug. It’s kinda pointless since PHEV battery range is like what, 50km.

pryelluw• 11 months ago

@Jeff:

Are you worried or thought about resale value? Do you plan to keep it for long?

geerlingguy11• 11 months ago

Like my other cars, I plan on driving it into the ground :)

And the range is overkill for me, really. I could live with 100 miles or so and not worry, so even if the battery wears down to 50% SoH (right now it's 93% after 36k miles), I'll still be happy.

globular-toast3• 11 months ago

What's your strategy for scrapping a car? I find people grossly underestimate the cost of car ownership mostly due to cost of maintenance and repairs at the end of life. It's so easy to keep bleeding parts and labour for longer than is economical.

nkingsy• 11 months ago

I briefly owned a gen 1 leaf. It went from 70 miles of “range” (more like 25) at 100% to 50 in a couple of years of very light driving. Poor guy who bought it from me had all kinds of trouble trying to get it home.

asdff7• 11 months ago

Ebike would be nicer at that point. Battery takes far less time to charge over 110v. You can simply hot swap a charged battery. No insurance or registration requirements. Far lower base cost. Far lower maintenance costs. About the same range. Probably similar cargo volume compared to a cargo ebike. Just need a rain coat and rain pants and you are probably set for most conditions. Call an uber when you actually need to transport 4 people and you'd come out well ahead.

The big secret with bike commuting is that in urban setting on surface streets, its actually the fastest way to get around short of a motorcycle or helicopter. Yes, much faster than cars, thanks to lane splitting.

BizarroLand2• 11 months ago

I have an ebike, it's very nice, and I live ~9 miles from my job, so it's well within range.

But I would not want to be caught in the ever changing weather here on an ebike. Maybe if it had a shell to protect the rider, but then we're getting into it being too pricey for an ebike range.

jama211• 11 months ago

2023 is new wow

chelmzy2• 11 months ago

Crazy he wouldn't go for a Bolt. I just bought a 2019 Chevy Bolt w/ 11k miles for $14.5k (so a bit over 10k after federal rebate). It has a brand new battery because all the Bolts were recalled for battery issues. Has around 250m range. Feel like I won the lottery. Still plenty of them available https://www.donohooauto.com/searchused.aspx?Make=Chevrolet&M...

ambicapter• 11 months ago

There still are federal rebates?

chelmzy2• 11 months ago

Until September 30th so better hurry.

Workaccount22• 11 months ago

I was so close to pulling the trigger on one of these except for 3 factors: It's driving assist platform is now deprecated and no longer receiving area expansions (I know many could not care less), it's charging speed is pretty slow by today's norms, and it will likely retain almost no value as time goes on.

wlesieutre• 11 months ago

If you're worried about self driving features, there's always the option of a Comma AI retrofit

nebula88042• 11 months ago

Are you saying SuperCruise on the Bolt stops working or just that they wont expand existing coverage?

This Bolt EUV car drives so damn good. I was very impressed when I drove it.

The Bose audio is also quite good. After testing several new cars, I learned that Bose audio is not implemented the same across manufacturers. For example Mazda Premium Bose is just plain mediocre.

For the price that you can pay for one, Bolt EUV is an amazing deal. Unfortunately the charge speed is a deal breaker for many. But I never forgot how well it handles.

I really hope these cars last, they are a hidden gem and I think a lot wouldnt care about resale value if that charge speed was a bit better.

wffurr• 11 months ago

"driving assist platform is now deprecated and no longer receiving area expansions"

What driving assist platform? I don't think the older Chevy Bolts have any such thing. At least I'm pretty sure my 2017 doesn't.

blank_fan_pill• 11 months ago

it will likely retain almost no value as time goes on.

If you're buying a car as an investment I have bad news for you...

mikepavone2• 11 months ago

I have a 2017 Bolt as my only car and the slow L3 charging is definitely a downside, but I haven't found it to be a huge issue in practice. On a trip long enough to worry about fast-charging you're going to need to stop to eat periodically anyway so if you plan your charging around meals you don't end up waiting too long. Obviously gets a bit more annoying on trips that are long enough to require more than one fast-charge per-day, but I don't take trips that long frequently.

Day to day charging is generally all going to be L2 or even L1 depending on how far you drive and how long typically parked somewhere with a plug. That will be roughly the same speed in any car. Some cars do have higher capacity L2 chargers than the Bolt does, but most public L2 stations don't provide the higher current needed to see the difference.

com2kid4• 11 months ago

Lane keeping works (poorly) but Bolt's automatic cruise control implementation is really good and works in stop and go traffic and at street speeds. I've used ACS systems before that refused to work in both those scenarios.

Charging time for road trips sucks. 99% of my driving is around town. Being a smaller EV it fits city life very well and I just top it off on a 120v plug every night.

I got a 2023 fully loaded with sunroof (except super cruise) for 24k, only had 40 miles on it.

That said the app is horrible and you can see how GM just didn't give a shit all throughout the car. No AC/dog mode. If you shift too fast after turning the car on you have to reboot the car using a secret method that is buried on forums (anyone reading this, don't press break, hold down the power button until the car restarts) and you can only remotely turn climate on to its last setting from the app.

Oh and even if you pay monthly for remote access just checking the charge level through your phone probably won't work (time outs...) and locating your car really won't work.

If you turn on climate remotely, drive somewhere less than 10 minutes away and then get out, you may try to turn climate back on using the app, but that won't work because the app has a really long cool down before it even checks the car to see what the status is so you end up in an invalid state where the app thinks the car is still on even though you just stepped out and turned it off.

Resistive heating means even with Seattle's mild winters I barely have 200 miles of range.

The car isn't smart enough to close the sunroof visor on hot days to keep the car cool.

In general it feels like what it is - a mid 2010s car that was far behind Tesla at the time for thoughtful details (expected given the year and GM) that was sold into the 2020s way after other manufacturers had updated their cars electronics to have common sense features.

That said some details are nice. You can be connected to car play and Android Auto at the same time and designate one of those as primary for apps and navigation but take calls through both. Physical climate controls are appreciated, and the rain sensing wipers actually work well. ;)

The 360 camera is wonderful to have. It cost me $10k vs getting a the base trim car, totally worth it.

I bought it April 2024 and I have some 0 maintenance other than car washes. So damn cheap to own.

In the 16 months I've owned it I've only put on 6k miles and it'll never pay for itself on gas savings , but last car was totalled and I legit enjoyed test driving the EUV more than a Lexus UX 300h that cost a lot more.

So anyways happy with the purchase, great value, horrible for road trips but I do them anyway.

cosmic_cheese5• 11 months ago

I have a lease end coming up and the Bolt/EUV are on my radar, but one significant advantage that Leafs have is that the lower trims can have their head unit swapped out for a nice Pioneer or Sony unit from Crutchfield, just like is possible with many ICE vehicles, which can get you a nicer infotainment experience (including wireless CarPlay/AA) that isn’t encrusted with rent-seeking gunk.

seanmcdirmid5• 11 months ago

just like is possible with many ICE vehicles

Many older ICE vehicles, you mean? EVs aren't really special in their use of custom car-bound head units. BMW XDrive is the same XDrive they have in their EVs as they have in their ICEs. Mandatory backup cams is only going to accelerate that.

turtlebits2• 11 months ago

The Bolt EV supports Android Auto and Carplay, you can get a ~$30 USB dongle to give you wireless.

jdeibele• 11 months ago

I drive a 2023 Bolt EUV and it has wireless CarPlay. My wife's 2024 Equinox EV has Android Automotive and no CarPlay. We don't have Android phones so I don't know how well an Android phone would work with Android Automotive.

I've been tempted to get a larger car but the Bolt is so much more fun to drive compared to the Equinox.

011000113• 11 months ago

IIRC my 2019 Bolt had android auto but required the USB cable be plugged-in. My aftermarket, China-special head unit in the old car I've been driving lately has wireless Android Auto and while it's cool, it's still effectively wired due to how quickly it drains my Pixel 8 Pro's battery.

ddalex3• 11 months ago

Has around 250m range

250 meters ? but I want to drive off my street....

ta12653421• 11 months ago

--1

pkulak2• 11 months ago

Well, that's certainly not the cheapest. You can find old Leafs for 5k. People love Bolts, for good reason, and bit them up.

BizarroLand2• 11 months ago

I've seen Leafs for $3k or less. The problem is their battery life is ~10 years max, and replacing the battery costs $5k-$15k. That old leaf may have a 30-50 mile max range.

Don't get me wrong, that would still cover 80% of my daily driving needs, but when I need to drive to the big town for work on a moments notice I may not have time to drive home and swap out for my ICE vehicle.

I have a pre-order in for the Slate, having 150 miles range would cover 99% of my driving needs, so I am not against EVs, just sharing the awareness that battery degradation is a thing to be concerned about.

jhallenworld• 11 months ago

So here's the thing that's coming for EVs, and I finally started to see it for the Leaf: driveway DIY battery replacement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIQ-RROpls0

Yes, this involves lying on your back with a 700 lb battery held up by jacks just inches above your head. But heck, services are expensive these days so it's going to happen.

foobarian• 11 months ago

This makes me wonder, if you can replace one, can't you add one on top of the old one? Or two or three? There goes the range anxiety

rootusrootus13• 11 months ago

Not yet, but I kinda wonder if it will happen. At least in certain situations. For example, the F150 Lightning -- body-on-frame truck where the battery sits between the rails rather than being tightly integrated with a custom unibody design. As batteries improve, I could see people retrofitting newer batteries with more capacity.

m463• 11 months ago

that's not cheap. Cheap is the older leafs, which go for $3k.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/cta?auto_make_model=niss...

I bought a 2012 for $7500 in 2016 and drove it for several years.

1. chargers suck. there was evgo, blink, chargepoint. Most locations had 1 or most 2 DC fast chargers, but frequently they didn't work or were busy. Not reliable.

2. range was less that expected, even if you update expectations. It takes engineering to use the range you have, especially taking #1 into account. You don't want to get to a fast charger at 1% then find it doesn't work.

3. the battery health wasn't great, but because the battery capacity/range was less, the number of battery cycles was significantly more. I charged to a higher %, discharged low each day, and cycled daily.

4. the leaf was a perfect "around town" car. Not for trips.

Tesla has basically solved all of this and their cars are usable like a regular car*

* don't be pedantic, in 99% of situations/locations

thorncorona• 11 months ago

+1 i was thinking of getting a bolt but it’s not a viable option if you like doing road trips.

either you get 2 cars or a fast charging ev. i chose the latter

nartho• 11 months ago

A while ago I bought an older leaf because I had an expensive commute. Battery was ok when I bought it but it degraded very quickly. Doing my commute in winter with the heater and radio off going 10 under hoping to make it to my job where I could charge it was not fun.

I now own a corolla hybrid and I enjoy cheap commutes without the fear of running out of juice

SlowTao• 11 months ago

Here in southern Australia we would endlessly see this one guy with his broken down leaf on the side of the road. If I recall it was one of the very first generation models and they did not handle our summers well at all. To be fair to Nissan a lot of their issues did get resolved in come generations but it was funny to see that, yeah, they didn't do too great on those first few rounds.

As to your Tesla *. I do endless tire of folks who are like "But what if you want to circle the planet!?! Check mate EV dorks!". For 99% of the time they are absolutely fine.

A friend of mine had one as a work car and drove the 940km (580 miles)from Melbourne to Sydney with only a single charge up of $20 half way through, got lunch at the same time. I mean yes if you really stretch it, you could do it on a single tank of fuel on a combustion engine but it would be a tight run. Also to the recharge time, that drive takes about 9 hours if you do not stop. I have never done it in less than 12 hours because you end up having a lot of down time on trips like that. There is plenty of time to charge if needed. Like you say, for the most part these are solved issues.

nebula88042• 11 months ago

The charging situation is a fast moving target. Massive expansions since 2016.

Meanwhile Tesla build quality is still mixed bag in 2025. The used ones suffer from previous lapses in QA which is a darn shame. These are cars that could be usable for years but because their mentality of pushing junk out to meet end of quarter numbers, many of these cars won't be able to fulfill their true potential. They are disposable junk even if they drive well.

doawoo• 11 months ago

I ended up grabbing an Ioniq fully electric 2019 and i absolutely love it. Got it for a decent used cost, interior wise it was like new, no huge touch screen, but a decent one for CarPlay and Android Auto, real knobs and buttons, and the online portion is entirely obsolete since it used 3G so it has no connection to the internet! It’s perfect for me

tonymet11• 11 months ago

My neighbor has an Ioniq 5, styling-wise it's cooler than my Tesla. Reminds me of Corrado -- one of my favorite cars. But we have had night and day experiences with charging our EVs.

The supercharger network seems effortless & flawless -- almost too good. No payments, planning. The stations are clean, quiet & secluded. Just follow the Nav and charge.

The third-party network has been a disaster for my neighbor. He's had to back track many times, even on ~ 2 hr trips. The chargers are broken, causing him to double-back even more. On a recent trip the only working charger was next to a gas station and the fumes made his wife sick. He has 4+ apps to manage charging payments .

How on earth do people tolerate other EVs?

cosmic_cheese5• 11 months ago

I love how the Ioniq 5 looks, but it’s too long. I wish they sold a Bolt-sized cousin in the US, that would be perfect.

tonymet11• 11 months ago

a true Corrado clone, below 3500 lbs , would be sick

mort965• 11 months ago

People tolerate other EVs in two ways:

1. You charge at home and typically drive relatively short distances, meaning you almost never have to interact with a commercial charger; or 2. If you need to rely on commercial chargers, you live in a part of the world where Tesla was never allowed to build a charging network monopoly (i.e anywhere outside the US), or in a part of the US where there's decent fast charging infrastructure

It sounds like your neighbour is unfortunate to require relatively frequent charging at commercial charging stations, in a part of the world where Tesla was allowed to build out a charging network monopoly.

tonymet11• 11 months ago

He has home Level 2 (11kw) charging. But his EV is his primary road trip car.

It's not a "part of the world" it's Portland Metro area where millions live.

tonymet11• 11 months ago

do you live in some communist country where businesses need to get approval ?

doug_durham• 11 months ago

You can charge Ioniq 5's at most Tesla charging stations. I have a 2025 and it comes with the NACS port. It can charge anywhere. It's great.

tonymet11• 11 months ago

his has the older port , I think CCS. 2025 was the first year with NACS . I heard Hyundai offers the adapters free / discounted but he hasn't picked one up yet.

tonymet11• 11 months ago

also he doesn't like Elon so i think he's a bit stubborn about it

rootusrootus13• 11 months ago

How on earth do people tolerate other EVs?

I charge my Lightning at the same Tesla Superchargers I use with my Model 3. Works the same, plug in and walk away.

rsolva7• 11 months ago

Small, cheap electric cars are the best! Fun to drive, easy to maintain. I own an VW eUP 2015 model which costed me €4000 used. I do not know if they where for sale outside of Norway (I only see them here!), but it is the perfect car for 95% of our mobility needs.

I drive it to work every day (where I can charge it for free). I drive it to Oslo and can park/charge almost anywhere around town for really cheap, about €3/h, which is nothing compared to regular parking, which is usually ~€16/h.

I drive it to the Netherlands, about ~950km in two days, without a hint of range anxiety, thanks to abetterrouteplanner.com. Sure, I'm averaging 85km/h, and have to take a ~10min stop every ~2 hours to charge, but that is a welcome pause to visit the toilet or grab a bite.

I had to change a bearing that was getting noisy after 10 years of use, and it cost me €50 in parts and half an hour changing it. I was worried it was going to be a complicated affair, not having done it before, but it was as easy as changing a tire.

Oh, and there is physical buttons for everything! There is a little display that controls the music and shows consumption stats, but it is entirely optional and can be removed completely.

The battery has hardly degraded at all. I'm keeping this thing for as long as I possibly can, it is the perfect car!

boredpudding• 11 months ago

What range are you getting in winter at 85km/h?

Currently trying to get rid of our petrol car but knowing realistic range up front is rough. I'm fine with driving slower.

rsolva7• 11 months ago

It really depends on just how cold it is outside and how much (or little) heat you are comfortable with inside. For mild winter weather (+5 to -5°C) and 18°C in the cabin, the range drops to around 80km or so. On a sunny summer day, I can easily get about 130km on Norwegian country roads, probably more.

When driving to the Netherlands in the months between March and October, the consumption has been around 8.3kW/100km. The car is light and has little tech that consumes power.

Since the car has no heat pump, heating the cabin has a noticable impact on range during cold winter days.

That said, it is a really good car to drive in the winter as the cabin gets warm in no-time and the windows in the front and back are heated and melts away thick ice in about a minute, even in really cold weahter! When doing normal commutes, the shorter range does not matter at all. But I would probably not drive to the Netherlands in -10°C during the winter!

watersb• 11 months ago

We get 190 miles of range in winter at highway speeds if we are careful. 2019 Chevy Bolt EV with a factory-new battery from 2021.

It was $20k used.

We also have a 2014 BMW i3 with a worn-out battery. This was designed for ~50 miles between charging, or you could get the one with a little petrol engine as a "range extender". Mine can only do about 40 miles in winter. Later models doubled that, and most i3 cars on the road do 1.5x what I'm getting. But I got it used for $5000...

pornel5• 11 months ago

The absolutely worst efficiency I've experienced was 2.7km/kWh at 120km/h in DS3 e-tense. That was a v1 Stellantis drivetrain, without a heat pump. Peugeot e208, Corsa-e, etc. are the same thing. Stellantis sucks at EVs, especially their first gen, so that's probably really the worst case scenario (apart from EV's nemesis: towing non-aerodynamic trailers at high speeds).

So if you take an EV's battery size in kWh and multiply it by 2.7, that's the worst range you will get in km.

In normal weather EVs get 5-7km per kWh.

octo8884• 11 months ago

is usually ~€16/h

Holy HELL that is crazy. I thought £5/hr in London was crazy.

ww5202• 11 months ago

I paid over $50 USD for parking a bit over two hours in Cambridge Massachusetts when visiting MIT. Parking in the Boston area is atrocious.

Reason077• 11 months ago

£5/hr sounds pretty cheap for London. You can pay an awful lot more than that for parking in some areas!

maccard• 11 months ago

Where are you parking for £5/hr in London? It’s more than that in Edinburgh these days

ChrisMarshallNY• 11 months ago

Try downtown Manhattan.

As to the GP, it’s refreshing to hear about a reliable VW. Most folks I know, that own VWs, complain about reliability.

But they still love their cars. I’ve never driven a VW, but, apparently, they handle quite well.

epolanski3• 11 months ago

It's more of an incentive to walk, take public transport, and free cities as much as possible of cars.

nemo44x• 11 months ago

Why is it so cheap to park your car and not others?

danielheath3• 11 months ago

When you use a charging station, you pay for the power you consume, but not for "parking".

This usually means you can't stay for a particularly long time.

Broken_Hippo2• 11 months ago

Part of it is likely because Norway has done a lot to encourage the use of EVs. I wouldn't be surprised if this were part of this system. There have been things like tax breaks, not paying for tolls, and allowing people to drive in taxi/bus lanes. I'm not entirely sure about the extent: I haven't driven since I moved to Norway. This is all in addition to building out infrastructure - it is far easier to get around with an electric car now than it was when I moved 10 years ago.

This program isn't the same throughout Norway, though. In Trondheim, it looks like you pay for parking and then you pay for the charging separately so you really aren't parking for free. (Private parking might vary, and sometimes city parking is free).

011000113• 11 months ago

I miss my 2019 Chevy Bolt. Zippy and nimble. Didn't feel heavy like the Tesla I rented. Plenty of range for the city.

ggreer• 11 months ago

What Tesla did you rent? The base Model 3's curb weight is 3,552lbs. The first generation Bolt's curb weight is slightly heavier, at 3,563lbs. The long range Model 3 is 3,817lbs and the Performance model is 4,048lbs, but those tend not to be rentals.

And the cheapest Model 3 will have significantly more acceleration than the Bolt. Maybe the rental's acceleration was set to comfort mode. That reduces pedal responsiveness.

I didn't own a Bolt, but I did drive one and found it underwhelming. It had bad software, charged slowly, and then all of them were recalled due to battery fires. I don't seem to be alone in this opinion, as their depreciation has been pretty rough compared to other EVs from the same time period.

anovikov3• 11 months ago

Funny! Here in Cyprus in spite of totally car-centric culture, parking is free almost everywhere or at the very worst, 4 EUR per DAY in a few spots, but even there it's usually possible to find a spot for free.

Sometimes i wonder how our nation works. Low taxes, effectively no poverty among locals (and a foreigner can only be poor if they are an illegal immigrant, otherwise they lose their rights of residence and kicked out), almost no crime, and a budget surplus! And nothing seems to be a ridiculous overcharge: even healthcare is dirt cheap, funded by a really low tax of 2.4-4% if income.

All issues we have seem to be a product of culture/poor education, rather than economical - such as some trash in the streets or very poor quality of building and car maintenance. Also no Schengen but again, only foreigners care about it.

tossandthrow5• 11 months ago

It is called the tax haven premium. Just like Luxemburg or caymen island also works well as nations.

I don't think it is something to be proud of though, as the riches are not earned.

philjohn3• 11 months ago

I got my son a 2022 e-UP! as his first car when he passed his test - it's a RIDICULOUSLY fun car to drive, feels much faster than it is and is very direct handling wise.

It's a fantastic city car, and he's even done some longer trips in it.

I've also got an EV6 AWD which is obviously more powerful, and bigger, but nowhere near as fun to drive.

andrepd2• 11 months ago

Side note: "City car" should be an oxymoron from the get go, but here we are.

graeber_28927• 11 months ago

I thought I was crazy.

Every other month I drive 800km with my Opel Corsa-e, it takes me 10-12 hours and 4 charging stops.

This is 2 hours more than what my friends and relatives manage with their ICE car.

And since I have a child, I've been doing it in 2 days. Allows me to spend half a day packing, spend the other half in the car on the way to a hotel, and the next day I can be with the family for lunch. Kid is also not sitting tied to the seat a full day this way.

But I admit it is getting a bit much, and since I can't charge at home, I'm not getting the financial advantage either, so it's lots of travel time + hotel, and all the gain I get is that I love my car and don't want to switch back :D

Driving 950km with an e-up: I totally believe you that it's fine, but I'm sure I would be eyeing for a slight upgrade.

10% mora range isn't worth double the car price, probably. My personal benchmark is a 200km stretch on my way where I cannot reliably charge, and my current car is about the cheapest fully electric, that can do that. Even if I'm driving 90km/h behind trucks in the winter.

But good in you, nevertheless!

Ice car drivers love to make us feel miserable for the extra time and inconvenience, but it's a package deal, and overall the inconvenience is relatively easy to mitigate by smart planning, thinking outside the box.

And now I want an e-up for my wife :D

sandworm1013• 11 months ago

which is nothing compared to regular parking

Such advantages will disappear as EVs become more common. Lots of stuff, like super-fast home charging stations or EV using HOV lanes, cannot scale as EVs become a majority. Enjoy the special treatment while it lasts.

germinalphrase2• 11 months ago

Why wouldn’t fast home charging scale? Presumably, homeowners are doing their own installations.

rsolva7• 11 months ago

Electric vehicles are the norm in Norway, and has been for many years. And you are right, advantages like driving in the bus/taxi lane is abolished during rush ours. The charging and parking provided by the municipality is only getting better however, and prices stay low.

incanus772• 11 months ago

Agree! We got a used 2015 Fiat 500e for $8k 2.5 years ago and it’s been great as an around-town car. Don’t have kids, but can take a passenger or two in the back if need be (it’s tight) but for two people and errands, it’s been a fantastic value.

upcoming-sesame2• 11 months ago

waiting for an electric Fiat Panda to be old enough.

need a mini electric car with high clearance and surprisingly there aren't that many.

(need a tall car as I live in rural area and am driving on many dirt roads )

smoovb• 11 months ago

Just got a 2014 500e for $5k - 50k miles. What a great city car! We also have Model Y, and so the Fiat's 2 pedal driving, lack of good regen, multi-step lock/unlock process can all be forgiven for the price.

boulos• 11 months ago

spark.bg uses recent eUPs heavily! It's the first car listed at https://spark.bg/en/electric-cars/ .

zeristor• 11 months ago

eUp sounds like the ideal name for a car built in Yorkshire.

No doubt running on milky tea.

aacid• 11 months ago

Currently in the process of obtaining vw eup, I'm little bit nervous if I'm not doing a mistake but this thread gave me some comfidence. Thanks

syntaxing• 11 months ago

I want one just as a “house battery backup” and beater car. Something along the lines of 800W ecoflow inverter in the leaf to delta pro to house. But I don’t fully know how the air cooled aspect of the leaf would impact this idea.

vondur• 11 months ago

The Leaf's used to be pretty bad as far as electric cars went, with no active battery cooling or heating. I was pretty tempted to get a used Bolt EV. I've seen them for sub 20k with less than 30k miles on them. I've been driving around in my wife's older Subaru Crosstrek plug in hybrid, which works fine for the limited amount of driving I do to commute to work. We plan to give that car to my son once he gets his license.

NegativeLatency2• 11 months ago

Not possible everywhere because of bad (car oriented) infrastructure, but an e-bike would be more optimal for this person's commute since they're "only driving a few miles a day".

No insurance, fun, repair it yourself, etc

AtlasBarfed• 11 months ago

I used to bike about 3 and 1/2 mi to work and back.

This was right in the middle of a major city. It was so nice to just basically not have to deal with traffic. I was faster than cars at that point.

I never got a fat tire enough to do the snow, so I would ride until I absolutely couldn't anymore. If it was 15° or Fahrenheit or less, I'd still ride. I would just bundle up like I was skiing.

It was a pretty small office, so I could just roll my bike up to my cube and leave it in there.

And when it was lunch I could go further faster.

Modern e bikes are even better. Commute farther, carry more stuff, sweat less, hills/headwinds don't matter.

There should be so much more bicycle commuting these days with e-bikes.

Rain does suck though.

NegativeLatency2• 11 months ago

Yeah we get like 33 and rain in the Pacific Northwest for a solid chunk of the winter (only freezes sometimes). I find I end up riding with less electric assist during the winter so I generate my own heat.

uyzstvqs• 11 months ago

bad (car oriented) infrastructure

It's not an either-or. You can have streets which are car-friendly, bike-friendly, and pedestrian-friendly at the same time. Just look at the Dutch, they've been doing it for years. That is until recently in some big cities, though, where some less knowledgeable politicians have also adopted this false populist either-car-or-bike concept. Though the traditional principle still applies to about 99% of the country's roadworks, and it works really well.

mleonhard• 11 months ago

According to IIHS insurance loss data, https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/auto-insurance/insurance... , here's the chance of being injured while riding in one of these cars (and filing an insurance claim) relative to the average US vehicle:

    - Nissan Leaf -15% (Select "Small" & "4-door Cars" on the page)
    - Chevy Bolt -34%
    - Subaru Crosstrek -28% ("Station wagons" & "Small")
    - Tesla Model 3 +26% ("Luxury cars" & "Midsize")

So the choice of Nissan Leaf was OK from a safety perspective, but the Chevy Bolt is better. The Tesla is much worse.

wuming2• 11 months ago

Ceramic heater replacement anyone?

maerF0x02• 11 months ago

Even cheaper is a bicycle and use your body fat as a battery.

That's what I've been doing for ~1 year and have lost over 14 lbs.

spamjavalin• 11 months ago

Bought a leaf for 13k five years ago. It’s saved us 10k in fuel over that time compared to petrol car. NO BRAINER

js2• 11 months ago

With EVs there are tradeoffs. Even in my situation, only driving a car a few miles a day, I do take my car on one or two regional road trips every year.

That's how we ended up with a Chevy Volt in 2017. 100K trouble-free miles later, we still have it and my wife still loves the car.

mattlondon• 11 months ago

I recently had a similar situation but the chademo charger was the deal breaker for me here in the UK. Yes they exist, but perhaps each station would have 1 chademo Vs 3 or 4 CCS2, while other more recent stations are only CCS2. And even if there is one there, the chademo would only be 45 or 50kw while the newer CCS2 ones are frequently 150+kw now. I think I only ever saw a 100kw chademo once (...or maybe I imagined that?!)

Some lexus things used chademo too.

Ended up getting a used VW id.3 which ticks a lot of the leaf's boxes, but has CCS2 and 100+kw dc charging

casey2• 11 months ago

Why not a bicycle? This seems overkill for "a few miles" which I take to mean 4 Even an ebike seems overkill for this

globular-toast3• 11 months ago

No gasoline-powered car (outside of supercars, maybe? Never drove one of those) could match the feel of pressing the throttle on an electric.

Probably need to be careful with this because flooring it is addictive and you'll waste a lot of energy doing it.

For me the feeling of an electric car gave me a strange feeling. I just felt like I was in an electric wheelchair. It really hammered home the ridiculousness of able-bodied people travelling around town in these huge electric wheelchairs. I don't hold much hope for the future but I'd love to be able to live in a town without these things around.

rdudek• 11 months ago

Last year, I got a found a great deal on a gently used Chevy Bolt EUV 2023 model with only about 8k miles on it for about $16k USD from Hertz. Granted, I had to fly out of state to pick it up, but it was a great experience all together. Learned quickly that this car is not a road tripping car as it took over an hour to charge to 80%.

However, it is an amazing commuter car. Being able to charge it at home is fantastic.

We already put 14k miles on it since we got it last year.

misternintendo• 11 months ago

Nice work! Cool to see the mix of personal story and practical EV tips, especially the GitHub angle.

rurban• 11 months ago

The cheapest EV would be a BYD Surf, but unfortunately you cannot find used cars of these yet in Europe. Too new. Eying those for a while

eloisant9• 11 months ago

That's not the cheapest, at least in France the cheapest new EV is the Dacia Spring.

Of course if you look at the used market, older models like Renault Zoe can also be found for cheap... But considering EV technology have been evolving fast, I wouldn't buy a model older than 5 years old.

I also wouldn't want anything that doesn't have a CCS2. All my small electronics are finally USB-C, I don't want to deal with obsolete plug types and adapters again.

ctkhn• 11 months ago

Leaf is great. Parents have the first model, and I love driving it whenever I'm visiting. Even after the battery degraded to under 90 miles, I was still able to make any drive I needed and recharge at home. Charging infrastructure around town has gotten a lot better too and I think when I have kids and need a car, the leaf is where I'll start my search.

Also, it's really incredible that the dealer only had the leaf charged to 16% at the time of sale.

btbuildem• 11 months ago

found myself with a very short commute, only driving a few miles a day No gasoline-powered car [...] could match the feel of pressing the throttle on an electric.

You know what is unmatched for joyful travel through space, with occasional bursts of adrenaline? Especially practical over short distances of a few miles?

A bicycle! Especially when you already have one vehicle for family obligations.

I snicker when I see those ads that promise you'll be just whooshing around through rolling hills in your newest automotive purchase. No, buddy, you'll be gnashing teeth in traffic most of the time.

jwilber• 11 months ago

To be fair, if you are gnashing teeth in traffic, a bike is probably fairly dangerous outside a select few cities.

ryao• 11 months ago

I half expected to read that he devised a charging circuit for it controlled by a raspberry pi. I was somewhat disappointed when it turned out to be a normal blog post about buying a car.

zzzeek• 11 months ago

CarlinKit 5.0 Wireless CarPlay/Android Auto adapter because the Leaf only supports wired CarPlay by default

OMG this may have just saved my life that this is a thing

though it looks like there are ones with much better reviews

ec1096853• 11 months ago

Car dealerships are so useless. Imagine making a profit but offering this level of service:

Range Anxiety: Yes, it's overblown, but no, it's not non-existent. The day I bought my used EV, the dealership (which doesn't sell many EVs, even new) didn't have a 'Level 3' DC fast charger—and they had only charged it to about 16%. Letting it top off at L2 while I was dealing with finance, we got to 23%. I wasn't quite sure I'd make it home off the lot! Luckily I did, with 12 miles of range remaining.

angarg122• 11 months ago

I also thought this was a pretty silly way of bringing up range anxiety. It's like a dealership selling you a gas car with an empty tank. Obviously the very first thing you would do is to refill it before driving home.

ec1096853• 11 months ago

They should fill the tank up with gasoline before putting it on the lot.

rootusrootus13• 11 months ago

This shouldn't really big a big deal in most metro areas, at least. The car dealer doesn't have a big tank of gasoline on site, either, they just drive the car to the station and fill it up while you're signing the papers. They could just drive to the local fast charger with the EV and do exactly the same thing.

ec1096853• 11 months ago

EVs lose energy just sitting there, so if you are going to sell EVs, it’s a cost of doing business

Never heard of a Tesla going home with 12% battery.

rockostrich3• 11 months ago

This shouldn't really big a big deal in most metro areas

Not sure which areas you're referring to but in the Northeast EV infrastructure around the metro areas is not the best. In my experience, I would have to plan out my stops if I was driving between Philly and NYC if I didn't have a 90+% charge and even then I would be worried that there would be a line or chargers would be out of order.

Taking a look at an EV map, there's only half a dozen stations around NYC with 100+ kW chargers and almost all of those chargers are in-use at 2 pm on a Saturday. Sure you can go to a slower charger or just wait, but it's a pain in the ass if you are trying to plan out a trip and show up on time.

jiveturkey• 11 months ago

One pedal driving Seriously, why doesn't every EV have this mode? It makes driving one feel SO much better than any gas car, in terms of connection between driver and car movement.

_ANY_ gas car? 100% of manual transmission cars (and now PDK/DSG/DCT) have this.

rootusrootus13• 11 months ago

Sort of. Regenerative braking can be far stronger than engine braking (with the possible exception of a diesel exhaust brake).

rockostrich3• 11 months ago

One pedal driving means you can come to a full stop and start accelerating again with a single pedal. You can certainly come to a full stop in a manual transmission car without touching the brake pedal or clutch but the engine will stall and you won't be able to accelerate again until you restart it and get the car back in gear. AFAIK no ICE cars have one pedal driving although I guess it's possible to implement sans the regenerative braking.

rockostrich3• 11 months ago

I hate every time I have to jack up my car and change the brakes, or take it in for oil/fluid changes

This is is such a weird take. Most EVs weigh a lot more than a ICE car (although the Leaf is about the same as most normal sized sedans) so the brake pads wear more quickly. And anyone that takes the time to change their brakes is likely doing their own oil changes because it takes 15 minutes.

The rest of the write-up is pretty spot on though. I leased a Hyundai Ioniq 6 2 years ago because I thought I would enjoy the driving experience. I was living in Philly and at the time it was my only car so I used it for trips to other parts of the city as well as any driving around the northeast to see friends and family. It's amazing for local driving, but doing any kind of drive that was more than 100 miles was a logistical pain. Even if you plan out the stops, you are still constantly worrying about whether or not there will be a long line to charge or the chargers themselves are broken even if they are reported as working in the apps.

I've since moved to the suburbs and my partner uses the Ioniq to commute to work because it's perfect for that. For any longer trips, we opt for our ICE car.

The only future foray I would consider with EVs is doing something like an EV conversion on my kei truck. Hopefully the Slate and Telo are the start of a wave of small EV trucks because I love the idea of a small truck that I can use to bring to Home Depot or to pick up larger FB Marketplace purchased.

dbtc• 11 months ago

so the brake pads wear more quickly

I don't think so. With regen on a Bolt, I regularly drive dozens of miles (in traffic, and with full stops) without touching the break pedal.

AfterHIA• 11 months ago

My dream is a young person is that Nissan would release an affordable car that me and my homeless little brother could sleep in comfortably. We both are in college pursuing CS degrees and it's getting difficult.

pojzon• 11 months ago

I was super in favor of EVs in EU to the moment I visited Germany to notice that 3/4 of all cars were disel cars and getting pushed to green laws is a scam.

I enjoy driving good cars that roar nice, so bought a new disel car that can drive 180/h without sweating much.

I value my time more than anything else.

diego_moita• 11 months ago

I have a Kia Niro EV 2024.

Before buying this car I didn't like driving.

Now I like driving.

Actually, I like it so much that I began doing something I never did before with any car I had: I read the whole owner's manual, I wash and clean the car every month and I pay attention to maintenance routine.

That's how good it feels to drive electric.

lubosm• 11 months ago

When we moved, my wife was looking for an electric scooter to get to the train station for a commute to work. When we considered the weight and practicality in bad weather, we found new Dacia Spring 2023 model for 14,000 € in sales. It's a game changer since we charge it exclusively at home for about 1 € per 200 km range. There is virtually no maintenance. Having a VW Passat diesel for longer trips, we cannot be happier.

I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

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