European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/03/carmakers-must-bring-back-buttons-to-get-good-safety-scores-in-europe/

by mbrubeck • 2 years ago

1025 638 2 years ago

cwillu• 2 years ago

A start, but not far enough: anything a driver might be reasonably expected to do while driving should have a physical control.

Zero-force, zero-feedback, zero-travel controls should be illegal for such functions.

bhpm2• 2 years ago

Wouldn’t it be safer to require all cars to have voice controls? Then the driver doesn’t have to move their hand off the wheel at all.

infotainment2• 2 years ago

IMO, voice controls are good additional control modality, but not a good primary one, since the discoverability is zero. (And also they're usually just...not very good.)

delfinom• 2 years ago

Causing drivers to get road rage because they can't figure out the correct phrasing for voice controls probably also isn't a good idea.

Google Assistant still regularly misinterprets what I say <.<

Not to mention most voice assistants are fucking awful slow in language. It's like they pick a rural dweller as their speech model instead of a city slicker.

Just give me a button instead, it'll be quicker and less distracting.

dexwiz2• 2 years ago

Not all drivers can speak. Not all drivers speak in a way a voice control can reliably understand them. Not all drivers are in environments where voice commands can be easily understood, like loud music. If you are driving a car you likely have the ability to push a button.

focusgroup0• 2 years ago

I took a ride with an owner of a brand new BMW with glass cockpit and minimal buttons. He complained to the dealer about not being able to find any of the actions in the endlessly nested menus. The dealer's response: Use voice controls.

He tried it, and it's even worse than Siri in terms of reliability. Absolute unmitigated disaster.

mc32• 2 years ago

Some reactions are instinctive and don’t require thought.

Imagine mid-sipping a drink and something falls out of a truck… garble garble garble —-crash.

Voice controls in an emergency wouldn’t work unless you require like 500 feet (maybe more) car to car separation. And then you have people with temporary voice conditions (losing voice) and permanent voice conditions (mute/dumb)

amluto7• 2 years ago

“Hey car, honk the horn”

“Hey car, signal left”

“Hey car, reverse”

You’re kidding, right? Even if this worked far better than Siri, it’s too slow.

stevage• 2 years ago

Pretty impossible to have a conversation with a passenger then.

justinclift• 2 years ago

"Break"

"BREAK!"

"BREAAK!!!!"

"OH GOD PLEASE BRAKE!"

crunch

Problems can occur if it the voice system brakes (pun intended). ;)

culopatin9• 2 years ago

Like voice control is a reliable method of communication lol. Have an accent? Sorry can’t use your car. Mute? Cough? Lost your voice at a concert? Have the windows down? Come on…

AdamJacobMuller• 2 years ago

I'm not entirely sure you've ever used voice controls.

I've never had experience with any car voice controls which didn't make me want to drive my car into a divider just to end the pain. Voice controls are so frustrating to use that I'm sure they are more distracting to use than even a touchscreen. I might be able to keep my eyes on the road easier with voice controls, but, my brain is going to be quickly annoyed and focused on trying to suss out why the voice control system is not understanding me, or am I using the wrong phrase, or do I need to put the windows up (impossible for me 6+ months of the year) so the car can hear me better?

It's like trying to pair bluetooth with a non-carplay (or non-android auto -- which I haven't used but heard good things about) with virtually all OEM and many aftermarket receivers. A uniquely frustrating experience which makes me wonder if QA departments at automakers actually exist.

roywiggins• 2 years ago

Being able to honk the horn or turn the windshield wipers on from the back seat would certainly be an interesting feature, especially for people with kids.

morkalork• 2 years ago

Your reflexes are faster than you can speak. At least I hope they are.

timothyduong• 2 years ago

I hope you don't have any speech impediments, accents, and english is your first language.

gnicholas• 2 years ago

I've heard some of the newer cars have pretty good voice controls, especially on the more expensive models. However, the companies tend to put these behind a subscription wall, which I hate. I don't want my car to be always connected to the cloud. I'll do my navigation via my phone, and nothing else requires connectivity (except perhaps if I had an EV and wanted to schedule charging stops).

dzhiurgis5• 2 years ago

Obvious limitation is something like Maps and media.

My guess ones that use mechanical dials (i.e. Lexus until ~ year ago) cause more distraction than touchscreen by simply being harder to use and taking more time to solve your problem.

Given how well chatgpt's voice recognition works - why not just put it on all cars!

gamepsys2• 2 years ago

Obvious limitation is something like Maps and media

I would love to see some data to see how dangerous it is to operate Maps and Media apps on a touch screen while operating a moving vehicle. This is data modern automakers should have access to. I suspect the answer is that it does reduce safety.

Spivak2• 2 years ago

Check how Mazda did it with their ring control. I love it in mine. No touch screen needed.

It's amazing that accessibility is such an afterthought that having a physical wheel that tabs forward and backward through a UI as the primary means of using it is unfathomable until it's actually implemented.

peeters2• 2 years ago

I've only used a Lexus that had a touchpad. I do however regularly use a Mazda with its commander knob, and it is far safer than a touchscreen in my opinion. You can do most navigation without looking at the screen, with just an occasional glance to confirm you're doing what you think you're doing. Whereas a touchscreen requires constant attention while you're manipulating the screen.

The only thing that annoys me about Commander Knob + Android Auto is that AA still forces attention breaks as you scroll through big lists (e.g. Spotify playlists) which is really stupid because you're not usually looking at the screen if you know you need to scroll say 75% down. You're just looking occasionally to see how far you've made it. By making the task take longer, it's reducing safety.

The biggest safety issue by far with Mazda+AA is Google's baffling regression in handling voice input for common tasks while driving.

croo• 2 years ago

Given how well chatgpt's voice recognition works - why not just put it on all cars!

Because saying "roll down the left window" is still a fucking nuisance compared to a click of a button.

sa-code• 2 years ago

Because it still makes mistakes, and it's not always clear when a mistake has been made.

bloopernova• 2 years ago

I haven't looked at new cars in a while. Do most USA or European cars use touchscreens now, or do they still have physical controls?

aembleton3• 2 years ago

They have both physical controls and touchscreens

aurareturn4• 2 years ago

Around 10 years ago, I started looking into buying a new car. I couldn't believe the number of cars that switched to touch controls even 10 years ago. It boggles my mind just how car makers thought it was safer/easier to have touch in a car while one is driving. I refused to buy any car that replaced physical buttons with touch controls 10 years ago and I still have this rule today.

Then again, it also boggles my mind how car makers in the US continue to use flashing red lights as the turn signal instead of yellow lights. You can barely see the red light in sunlight and it's harder to tell the red light from brake lights. Furthermore, the same car will have yellow signal lights in the front and side. So yellow signal lights in front and side, red in the back. Just make it all yellow for turn signal!

bolasanibk• 2 years ago

I would the main driver was economics. It would be easier and cheaper to manufacture one big screen in the middle compared to a bunch of physical controls with wiring.

Also makes it easier to change things later in the design if you do not have a bunch of physical controls to move.

aurareturn4• 2 years ago

I get the cheaper and the ability to update thing.

But if any car makers had done any proper UX testing, they'd quickly find out that physical buttons in a car is a non-negotiable.

ahartmetz• 2 years ago

Do not forget the massive "tablets are the future of computing" hype because Apple released a thing. Touchscreens were super cool by association. It was all pretty stupid. I say that as someone who creates mostly software for touchscreens... using keyboard and mouse because they are much better input devices. You just need the space and the budget for them.

ceejayoz• 2 years ago

Then again, it also boggles my mind how car makers in the US continue to use flashing red lights as the turn signal instead of yellow lights. You can barely see the red light in sunlight and it's harder to tell the red light from brake lights.

I'm also starting to see really thin - single narrow LED strip - turn signals that are barely visible next to the much larger headlight nearby.

tpmoney• 2 years ago

It boggles my mind just how car makers thought it was safer/easier to have touch in a car while one is driving.

Does anyone actually think that though? Or was it considered “good enough” in light of its other benefits like reducing costs, reducing BOM, eliminating part design work, reducing wiring complexity, adding flexibility and customizability, (potentially) increased reliability, making it easier to jam the multitudes of controls and options a modern car has into a more usable and understandable interface, etc.

Don’t get me wrong, when I bought a new car, one of the selling points was the manufacturer was one of the few to still offer physical control and navigation of the touch screens (in fact the touch functionality is completely disabled at any speed faster than 5 mph). But I don’t think “safer and easier to use while driving” has ever been the driver for touch interfaces in cars.

aurareturn4• 2 years ago

Yes yes I get the cheaper/update factor of touch controls. And I don't mind a touch screen for complicated functionality.

I mainly gripe about losing physical buttons for main functions such as temperature control, radio/music control, lights, windshield wipers, etc.

pwg• 2 years ago

It boggles my mind just how car makers thought it was safer/easier to have touch in a car while one is driving.

It is likely that neither safety nor ease of use were part of the automaker's "thought process".

It is much more likely that a first misguided "designer" created the first touch panel control and somehow sold it to "management" as being "futuristic" and/or "ahead of the competition". And once the first car model arrived with one, the rest, like firefox to chrome, felt the need to play the imitation game for fear of being seen as not as "trendy" or "futuristic" as that other guy. I.e., purely the "fashion trend" aspect.

Then, as they proliferated, the reduced BOM costs from removing every other previous mechanical control was reverse justified as the reason for continuing to add them to ever more car models.

userbinator9• 2 years ago

Safety was part of the thought process --- just enough to get by whatever regulations are currently in effect.

lelanthran4• 2 years ago

Well, yes, that's the main reason - it's cheaper.

There are other reasons of course - planned obsolesence is a big one. Why would they want cars to work after the primary owner is done with it? With software-everything they can lock the car to the first 3 or 4 owners, and then remotely kill it.

It doesn't even have to be actively disabled, just stop providing the replacement head unit as a part because "we don't have that software anymore".

drc500free• 2 years ago

My understanding is that the real driver is in being able to decouple the design of the controls from the rest of the interior design. I read somewhere that being able to design those in parallel with fewer dependencies makes a significant different in getting the car into production on time.

hnbad2• 2 years ago

There's a simple selling point to touch panels that most people here seem to be missing: it decouples the software/firmware from the hardware.

Car manufacturers want to be able to change cars after they are sold. This can be in the positive via OTA updates that fix firmware issues or in the negative by providing "subscription" features that provide a passive income beyond the initial sale. Tesla has been paving a path here with its grandiose claims of "full self-driving" and industrial manufacturers like John Deere have been experimenting with bringing smartphone-style DRM and rent-seeking to motor vehicles. Replacing as many "hardcoded" physical controls with flexible and fungible virtual controls is a logical part of the transition.

Why bother producing five different physical "editions" if you can just produce one and then downgrade it in four different ways by gimping the firmware or disabling controls in the UI? This way you can also upsell the features later or put them in a subscription model.

branko_d2• 2 years ago

Then again, it also boggles my mind how car makers in the US continue to use flashing red lights as the turn signal instead of yellow lights.

Technology Connections channel had a video about that a while back:

https://youtu.be/O1lZ9n2bxWA?si=xKRgMFK1DFBrB3i0

userbinator9• 2 years ago

Flashing red = car is pointed away from you

Flashing yellow = car is pointed towards you

It's the same reason why headlights are white and taillights are not (unless reversing, in which case the tail becomes the head temporarily, and thus white reversing lights.)

aurareturn4• 2 years ago

It boggles my mind. It really does. I refuse to buy a car that uses red turn signals.

donatj3• 2 years ago

I know Technology Connections complains about it all the time, but I don’t feel like he’s even made a case, he just asserts over and over “and we ALL agree it’s awful” as if he asserts it strongly enough it will become true.

Why is it a problem? How is a red blinker actually measurably worse than an amber one?

I have never had any sort of issue interpreting a blinking red taillight as turning? With red, you can more easily tell the direction of travel and the aesthetics of a single color are far nicer. I frankly don’t see the problem.

Commenter a couple levels up says you can’t see red blinkers in the sunlight? I don’t think that’s true on any measurable level, amber is a far closer match in hue to sunlight than red.

Aloisius• 2 years ago

You can barely see the red light in sunlight and it's harder to tell the red light from brake lights

I can't say that I've ever had trouble seeing the red turn signals in the sun. Being able to see them in the sun from a few hundred feet away is legally required in most, if not all, states.

Do you have trouble seeing brake lights too?

2143• 2 years ago

Then again, it also boggles my mind how car makers in the US continue to use flashing red lights as the turn signal instead of yellow lights.

This is probably a US government regulation thing. Because those same cars sold elsewhere in the world does have flashing yellow lights as indicators.

kevin_thibedeau2• 2 years ago

It's an allowance not a requirement. Some models that used to have amber indicators have been switched over to red for the cost savings.

PH95VuimJjqBqy• 2 years ago

are you me? I did the exact same thing in roughly the same timeframe. Went to a toyota dealership, when I realized all the vehicles were touch I asked if I could get one without and they told me they don't do that anymore.

I walked out and just continued driving the corolla I had (still have it to this day). When I needed a minivan I purchased an older honda odyssey and fixed it up.

serpix• 2 years ago

Hyundai and Kia has buttons.

adwf2• 2 years ago

Good. My Tesla doesn't have a stalk for wiper control and it's just awful UX. The auto function is erratic (often triggers on a sunny day, doesn't pick the right level in the rain). Might be fine for sunny California infrequent use, but terrible for England.

I'd much rather have easy full control at my fingertips than have to faff about with scroll wheels or the touch screen.

croes• 2 years ago

How about buying an other car?

speedgoose5• 2 years ago

The challenge is that other cars are either worse or more expensive.

A Tesla with some aftermarket modes (the sexy buttons for example) is still interesting despite its shortcomings. The perfect product doesn’t exists.

camillomiller• 2 years ago

While I agree completely, I would expect that the suggestion should be backed by more actual crash data.

breadwinner2• 2 years ago

Couldn't agree more. Tesla is the biggest violator. In new Teslas, they are removing physical stalks, so if you want to reverse the car, you have to use on-screen controls!

illumin82• 2 years ago

There are still physical P, R, N, D controls right below the phone chargers. They aren't exactly easy to use, though.

dkjaudyeqooe4• 2 years ago

On some models they are above the windscreen.

Ergonomic design at its finest.

izzydata• 2 years ago

Everything I ever hear about Tesla's keeps getting worse and worse. How are they still in business and why does anyone buy one?

infotainment2• 2 years ago

Have you seen the other BEVs available in America? There really isn't much choice if you don't want an SUV -- your options are basically a Tesla or a Chevy Bolt.

jbm• 2 years ago

I bought a used Model 3 that has the stalk and works fine. (The lack of wiper controls is absolutely ridiculous and is part of the Jonny Ive-ification of cars)

As for why they are in business, it is because they were first to market with Electric cars, and as a consumer I trust they are better at battery management than other companies that are not all-in on electric. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the degenerate billionaires that run other car companies are not better than the degenerate billionaire who runs Tesla.

(I would not buy the new models wo/ physical controls, my next electric car will probably be something Chinese in 10 years)

breadwinner2• 2 years ago

Tesla's keeps getting worse and worse.

Oh, and they replaced ultrasonic sensors with cameras in newer cars.

nunez2• 2 years ago

best electric cars in the business, though that gap is shrinking. their automotive infotainment ux is second to none. it's miles better than carplay.

piotrkaminski• 2 years ago

if you want to reverse the car, you have to use on-screen controls!

So? If you're switching to reverse then by definition you're stopped (or nearly so) and can afford to take your eyes off the road. The control is no further than most cars' center tunnel-mounted gear levers. Plus it only has the two common drive/reverse settings accessible via the swiping action, rather than all the rarely-used options. (Do you know how many times I've shifted into Neutral or Low by mistake in an unfamiliar car...?)

What exactly is the risk?

culopatin9• 2 years ago

That you can still look at your surroundings with the stalk and keep a tab on what people around you are doing. Without the stalk someone can walk into a blind spot and you didn’t catch them because you were finding reverse on the screen. The person next to you is getting ready to open their door. Or simply you want to make a 3 point turn quickly without being stopped in the middle of the street fiddling with a screen

ggreer3• 2 years ago

Is someone forcing you to drive a Tesla?

Yes, many people find these touch screens annoying, and they’ll tend to buy cars with physical controls. But just like people who prefer physical keyboards on their phones, these consumers are a vocal minority who aren’t big enough to cater to.

If touch screens make cars less safe, then we should see higher liability insurance rates for such cars. So far that doesn’t seem to be the case.

devsda• 2 years ago

Is someone forcing you to drive a Tesla?

The same argument can be made about other products too but it only distracts from the real problem.

Bad practises and products do stick around regardless of their actual usefulness and benefits.

For example take headphone jack. Nobody forced anyone to buy an Apple phone without a headphone jack, yet it is a challenge now to find a good premium/mid-range phone with a headphone jack. Other OEMs are simply copying Apple and people too get along with the new trend.

The same is happening with touch controls too. Once a popular desirable brand introduces an (anti)feature, its competitors misunderstand the feature as a contributing factor for its desirability and blindly copy it without getting into actual merits.

kabes• 2 years ago

No but because so many people still buy tesla because they're cheap and despite the lack of controls, suits at other manufacturers think they now have to get rid of physical controls as well.

nabla92• 2 years ago

Touch screens are cheaper but step backwards in UX and ergonomics.

If you need to look at the screen and your finger for basic functions, that's not different from using mobile phone while driving.

nicce• 2 years ago

Touch screens are cheaper

How I feel like that this price is not considered for the end user, at all…

nabla92• 2 years ago

For cheap cars, of course.

But using touch screens for any mid-level or luxury car is a bad choice from every aspect.

illumin82• 2 years ago

Tesla is probably at greatest risk here, having recently ditched physical stalks that instead move the turn signal functions to haptic buttons on the steering wheel.

I hate to break it to the article writer, but a haptic button on the steering wheel, while absolutely not easy to use, is a physical control.

dzhiurgis5• 2 years ago

while absolutely not easy to use

Absolute majority would like to disagree.

userbinator9• 2 years ago

But the organization wants to see physical controls for turn signals, hazard lights, windshield wipers, the horn

Are there really cars where the horn is not a physical button/ring on the steering wheel?

IMHO the driving UX peaked in the 1960s, and was largely unchanged into the 2000s, until touch screens started taking over.

Compare:

https://i0.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads...

https://images-stag.jazelc.com/uploads/theautopian-m2en/2010...

https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/Tesla-Mod...

At least the steering wheel and pedals still behave the same.

I_Am_Nous2• 2 years ago

At least the steering wheel and pedals still behave the same.

For now, companies are experimenting with drive by wire. Don't think I like that concept.

shepherdjerred• 2 years ago

Why? Brake by wire is already a thing.

userbinator9• 2 years ago

Drive-by-wire is at least a decade old if not more.

culopatin9• 2 years ago

Experimenting? It’s been around for a long time. My 1999 Jetta had it. It’s smoother and you can control the fuel adder on throttle opening from all angles. Sure, it’s not instant, but stabbing the gas in a non dbw is not great either. In electric cars there is no other way than dbw

static_void_• 2 years ago

Electronic power steering already exists. It's used in a lot of cars, and has been for at least 10 years. Your car may have one of these systems in it.

In an electric power steering system there are steering angle and torque sensors that know what direction the wheel is turned an how hard it has turned, and this is connected to an electric motor that powers the gears to move the steering rack.

There are still regulations in place that require a mechanical connection to the steering wheel and rack, but try and turn the wheel with the car off and see if your wheels move... But when the car is running when you turn the wheel you're just a voting remember in the system.

There are no such regulations for throttles. Pretty much every car since the late 80s has electronic throttle control and there are no mechanical linkages from pedal to throttle body.

c22• 2 years ago

The pedals do not behave the same.

tempestn• 2 years ago

Nor does the steering yoke.

userbinator9• 2 years ago

You mean you don't press the left one to stop, and the right one to go?

threeseed• 2 years ago

I think the issue with the horn is referring to the Tesla Model S.

And specifically the horn button being capacitive co-located with the voice assistance and windscreen wiper buttons.

Which in a safety situation was difficult to locate and press.

userbinator9• 2 years ago

Not the least bit helped by the fact that there seem to be several models all called the "Model S", but with very different controls.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-DEB259C...

For vehicles manufactured as of approximately January 2024: To sound the horn, press the middle of the steering yoke (or steering wheel). For vehicles manufactured prior to approximately January 2024: To sound the horn, press and hold the horn button on the right side of the steering yoke (or steering wheel).

"press and hold" doesn't seem like it'd be easy to do if all you wanted was a quick toot.

darkwater3• 2 years ago

They just reverted the horn positioning in the soon-to-be-released refresh of the Model S/X.

Sometimes even Elon admits he was wrong.

letitbeirie2• 2 years ago

It's weird that Tesla is being called out over the horn.

In driver's ed they tell you to not to use your horn when you're annoyed at other drivers - only use it if there's an imminent danger to avoid a crash.

But you better hope it works because if it doesn't, the airbag behind it explodes.

...

I'm not sure Tesla improved the situation, but it definitely seems like the situation has room for improvement.

mgoetzke5• 2 years ago

I a safety situation by drivers used to old style cars ? but it doesnt matter, even Model S has it in the middle now again. good choice

rsynnott3• 2 years ago

And specifically the horn button being capacitive co-located with the voice assistance and windscreen wiper buttons.

... Wait, is this a real thing, or just a joke about them being bad at UX? If a real thing... goodness, I'm quite surprised that doesn't break some mandatory safety rule.

mgoetzke5• 2 years ago

Recent Model S versions have the horn where it belongs

kwhitefoot2• 2 years ago

Which years does this refer to? The horn on my 2015 S70D is huge pad in the centre of the steering wheel.

ChrisMarshallNY5• 2 years ago

Are there really cars where the horn is not a physical button/ring on the steering wheel?

Yes: https://antiquecarmuseumofiowa.org/wp-content/uploads/1913-F...

Well ... "are" is kinda stretching it...

onionisafruit• 2 years ago

My grandmother used to have a car where the horn was a button at the end of one of the stems. I think it was on the same stem that controlled the wipers. I wish I remembered what kind of car it was. I think it was from the 40s.

tom_• 2 years ago

My 1995 Renault Clio had it as a button on the indicator stalk. Worked very well, in my view. Much easier than pressing the centre of the steering wheel. There's often no need to even move your hand!

userbinator9• 2 years ago

Touché! It's interesting how early vehicles were very different in their controls, but seemed to mostly converge and stabilise for a few decades, before again diverging and changing rapidly.

The Model T (Ford) had a throttle on the steering wheel and 3 pedals, but not the ones you'd expect today:

https://www.fordmodelt.net/images/ford-model-t-controls_smal...

richardw• 2 years ago

Except for radios. It's very annoying that every radio had a different UX, likely in the name of innovation and differentiation. I think that's a safety issue for e.g. rental cars.

consp4• 2 years ago

The radio is a feature in which a move to change station should not take more than a fraction oft a second. If it takes more you should stop. That is valid for any action but for some reason people start adjusting their entire audio setup while driving...

userbinator9• 2 years ago

The two-knob radio was a standard for a long time, and it looks like they're still made.

rkagerer• 2 years ago

At least the steering wheel and pedals still behave the same.

Don't give them ideas...

jojobas10• 2 years ago

Tesla Cybertruck uses steer-by-wire with almost no redundancy. Electric power steering was bad enough to cause crashes, this is just ambulance chaser's dream.

inferiorhuman• 2 years ago

Peugeot through the 505 put the horn button on a stalk on the steering column. The 505 ended production for most of the world in the early 90s and I've not seen any of their more modern cars so I've no idea how long that design lasted.

The French made some really… interesting choices with their cars.

nly• 2 years ago

I've been driving for 15 years and only ever used my horn once.

oblio5• 2 years ago

And in that situation it probably was easy to use because most likely you REALLY needed it, which these laws are trying to make sure happens: it's easily accessible.

freeAgent8• 2 years ago

Then it’s likely you don’t have a significant commute to work in a city with heavy traffic.

donatj3• 2 years ago

In fifteen years you’ve never been stuck behind someone stopped at a green light?

You’ve never had to give someone a “hey don’t back into me” toot in a parking lot?

You’ve never seen your friend Ricky, on the sidewalk?

trgn4• 2 years ago

You're making the world a better place. 100% sincere.

99% of time there is absolutely no reason to honk. People only do it because the button is there and they're safely insulated from getting punched.

vleaflet• 2 years ago

I never use my horn either, but I must admit that this "courtesy honk" is cool and I would probably use the super chill button if I had it :)

https://youtu.be/lv8wqnk_TsA?si=V4rPj1L3W5uZz_2J

mzs• 2 years ago

Are there really cars where the horn is not a physical button/ring on the steering wheel?

For a while Ford was putting the horn on the turn signal stalk, I hated it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/l08q...

techdmn2• 2 years ago

Touchscreen controls are the feature on my Tesla I dislike most. Try poking a small icon an arms length away while bouncing over typical Midwest roads and you'll see that it's impossible to do while keeping your eyes on the road. Physical controls would be fantastic, but at the very least they could:

* Radically improve the ability to control the car with the scroll wheels on the steering wheel. I don't mean assigning certain functions to the buttons, I mean having a cursor I could glance at, then put my eyes back on the road while I click right twice, up once, click again and then scroll to change whatever.

* For the love of all that is holy, ANCHOR controls to the top or bottom of the screen where you can brace your hand on the bezel while trying to poke the buttons. Pretty much the opposite of the fan control that is right in the center of the screen.

modeless12• 2 years ago

I mean having a cursor I could glance at, then put my eyes back on the road while I click right twice, up once, click again and then scroll to change whatever.

They added a menu kind of like this in a recent update. Long press the left scroll wheel and then you can control a bunch of things using a menu that's controlled entirely by the wheel, no touchscreen.

techdmn2• 2 years ago

On my car I can assign one specific function to the left scroll wheel, like the fan speed. What I want is something like the experience of using Windows without a mouse. I should be able to navigate the entire UI without touching the screen.

oidar• 2 years ago

If I was buying a new car in the US today, which automakers are doing a better job wrt physical controls?

Rebelgecko• 2 years ago

I really like Mazda's setup. Honda CRV setup is pretty good too. It seems like a lot of manufacturers are moving towards at least restoring physical controls for climate.

xyzelement• 2 years ago

I have a 2021 Toyota Highlander and always fail to relate to these threads. Everything that matters is a physical control.

binarymax• 2 years ago

Another vote for Mazda here. But I’m not sure about 2023/2024 models

tass• 2 years ago

Mazda have taken physical controls as a core part of their design philosophy. I don’t see them going away any time soon.

cyphereal• 2 years ago

I have a Mazda 2020 CX30. The display is not a touch screen and using CarPlay with the physical selector drives me nuts (it's also dangerous).

I like physical controls for everything else, but please make displays for e.g. CarPlay touch screens.

freeAgent8• 2 years ago

Mazda, and there is no close second.

throwaway22032• 2 years ago

The idea that a touch screen is cheaper than buttons and that this is the driving factor I find hilarious. It's some top tier bean counter shit.

I mean, yeah, sure. It'd be cheaper for my tyres to be made of wood. I don't give a toss, a new vehicle costs tens of thousands, what's $50 for a few buttons?

edit: Top tier bean counter replies! Is it contagious?

danparsonson• 2 years ago

Across ten thousand units? Half a million dollars. Not much in the grand scheme of things but not nothing.

icegreentea2• 2 years ago

I just randomly picked Ford for this. Ford had like 176 billion in revenue last year, but their cost of goods was like 150 billion and their final net income was 4.35 billion. Ford sells on the order of 5 million vehicles per year.

If you can generate $50 dollars of COGs reduction in a car, that's 250 million per year. Yes, that's basically nothing in terms of their COGs, but that's like 5% increase in net income (if they can channel all of the savings into the net income anyways). Alternatively, if you want to be less cynical, Ford's R&D budget comes from that ~20 billion dollar slice between their revenue, COGs and final net income. 250 million is still a pretty ~1% slice of their R&D budget.

dzhiurgis5• 2 years ago

Buttons are cheap to manufacture. Their design, testing, installation and support - not so much.

lelanthran4• 2 years ago

I don't give a toss, a new vehicle costs tens of thousands, what's $50 for a few buttons?

I don't think you've ever worked in manufacturing.

It's not just the cost of the buttons.

A larger cost is the fabrication of the housing for all the buttons: design the housing that goes into the dashboard/console, create a jig/die, continue creating new jigs/dies as the old ones wear out, keep the factory floorspace available even after the car has gone out of production, etc. This has to be done for each car model (yeah, even if you're using blanks).

Another cost that dwarves the cost of buying buttons is the fitment: the fitment robots have to be purchased, programmed and maintained just to put those $50 buttons in. It has to be done for each car model.

And, of course, design changes late in the process cause the manufacturer to spend all that money all over again.

Spread over the lifetime of the car (how long they keep providing parts for it), a minimum of around 5 years, that $50 is negligible compared to the tens of millions of dollars poured into fabricating and fitting of those $50 buttons.

Compared to a touchscreen, all that's done is to ensure that the dashboard design has a housing for the touchscreen. Done, and works for all models from baseline to top-end with no more money needed.

ChrisMarshallNY5• 2 years ago

Some folks may remember this discussion, from a couple of years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30140984

jay_kyburz• 2 years ago

I thought you were going to post this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23702560

ChrisMarshallNY5• 2 years ago

Awesome!

fransje262• 2 years ago

I did not watch the video linked in the previous post (yet!), but a fun fact is that for the F-35, they decided it was a great idea to use touchscreens instead of push buttons, and they are finding out the hard way it was.. ..not the best of choices.

It turns out that not having tactile feedback means that pilots are pressing the wrong button about 20% of the time. Even more so under g-loads..

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/technical-difficult...

doubloon2• 2 years ago

more evidence that a used Nissan Leaf is the ultimate driving machine.

culopatin9• 2 years ago

That won’t for a round trip in most driver centric cities. Lucky for me my gf lived 25mi away and had a Leaf so whenever she came home after work or school she would have to charge it again before leaving. Who wants to do that in winter in the rain? Just stay the night!

mancerayder• 2 years ago

Is a normal steering wheel pushed horn so expensive for an automaker selling a 35k+ USD car that they had to put a button?

The new Teslas have button turning signal - caveat emptor.

0x_rs• 2 years ago

Touchscreens tend to be a plague in cars—the last place you want sluggish non-responsive visual attention magnets. What's worse, a poorly engineered and implemented one may render your vehicle inoperable (safety-wise) and thus force you to expend exorbitant amount of money to get them replaced. Physical buttons are high availability and do not depend on absurd amounts of complexity to perform basic functions. It's impossible not to pay attention to this after being burned once by it. Even if a car may offer some limited physical buttons (such as defrosting) for the least ease of access, it may happen that you're unable to revert its secondary effects until you get it fixed.

tristor2• 2 years ago

This was the primary reason I bought my 2024 Mazda3, instead of alternatives in market. The Mazda was the only option that had physical controls for everything. In fact it disables the touch screen altogether when you exceed 10mph, forcing the use of physical controls. It works flawlessly with wireless carplay

culopatin9• 2 years ago

The Mazda 3 is such a pretty car in and out. I wish there was an AWD turbo manual or a fully electric one. Either one will make me replace the Prius.

tristor2• 2 years ago

I wish the Turbo AWD (which is what I have) was available as a manual as well, but I will say the transmission in it is pretty decent.

noirbot2• 2 years ago

I've owned one for so long and it makes me so upset that Mazda doesn't have an EV yet. I just want my current car as an EV and I'd be happy.

ProllyInfamous2• 2 years ago

I test drove a Prius, then bought a Camry Hybrid (2021).

It has physical buttons for everything except the radio... much better vehicle.

benhurmarcel• 2 years ago

It's a shame that Mazda is so late on electric cars. They were a great option.

hankman863• 2 years ago

Agree. Mazda has the best design among Japanese carmakers. They will probably end up as a sub brand of some Chinese EV maker.

coldpie• 2 years ago

Yep. My 2011 Mazda3 is great but getting on in age and we'd like to switch to an EV. Sadly Mazda's not in the running at all :( Probably will get either the Ioniq 5 or Kia EV6, whichever has fewer touch screen controls.

wnevets• 2 years ago

In 2026, Euro NCAP points will be deducted if some controls aren't physical.
Euro NCAP is not a government regulator, so it has no power to mandate carmakers use physical controls for those functions.

Why isn't this headline clickbait, what am I missing?

edit: the headline used to have the word Regulator in it.

magicalhippo5• 2 years ago

That some consumers, maybe even many, pay attention to NCAP ratings before buying a car.

culopatin9• 2 years ago

Car manufacturers still like their cars to look good and some people do look at those ratings when buying a car. Or you think people bought the old Volvo 240 because it’s sexy?

arlort2• 2 years ago

Not too familiar with this specific sector, but I can see two reasons why this could be more than nothing

1. If the evaluator is well established it's likely companies would be negatively impacted if they get lower scores even if it just means lower sales rather than an outright ban

2. It seems that while Euro NCAP is not a regulator it is pretty involved with national agencies, so this might be a signal that things are starting to move towards official rules. Of the "self-regulate or you will be regulated" variety

dzhiurgis5• 2 years ago

Having been driving Tesla for nearly a year went on a trip last week and got 2015 Toyota. Air con wasn't easier to control even after 6 days of driving. Still had to look at 10+ buttons all crammed up in 6cm diameter ring and figure out what is what.

With Tesla 99% of time I just flip temperature slider at bottom corner. For rest - open larger menu for very intuitive extra controls.

Kinda insane how mass media is picking up worst implementations from legacy auto and extrapolate that to a car that has best UX. It's literally 180 degree turn disinformation.

dukeofdoom• 2 years ago

Reminds me of the adidas run tracking app. I need to go forward and back in the menu to even start a run. Then it does a countdown. So you start, because why wait until the end of the countdown. Once your phone is in the pocket. Then it decides that you need confirm something like (GPS signal is weak) through a popup. Of course you have no idea it did that. So you pull out your phone once you get back to your car, only to realize it wasn't tracing anything at all. On the opposite end, it's never smart enough to realize that you're no longer running and you got in your car and started driving. So it will happily add tens of kms. Then to correct it you somehow need to change the distance, time and km separately.

It's like it's an incredible combination of both smart and stupid at the same time. You have to tap, double tap, slide, and press and hold at different places in the UI too.

cfr2023• 2 years ago

The trend of touch screens replacing physical controls in domains where muscle memory is an advantage is an utter atrocity.

No amount of interface versatility/flexibility can come close to touching the utility of not having to take your eyes off your subject. NONE.

thepasswordis2• 2 years ago

Not to mention that on cars like Tesla, UI updates will change the location of these buttons.

This drives me INSANE. The other one: some of the Tesla UIs feel like they were made with "minimalism" in mind. For instance the rear defroster vs the windshield defroster. I still, 3 years into my model Y, have no idea which is which, and every time I need to defrost the front windshield it's like a fight against the HVAC system and buttons and touchscreens to make it do anything.

I love my tesla, probably to the point of being annoying, but I **HATE** the ridiculous "minimalist" UI stuff, and I absolutely hate it when they push a UI update which moves things around.

teruakohatu• 2 years ago

Why do you love a car with anti-features that annoy you so much? I am genuinely curious, as I have only driven a Tesla once or twice.

lelanthran4• 2 years ago

How is it possible to love a car that does things you hate when there are other cars at the same price that does everything the object of your love does, and doesn't do the things you hate?

It sounds like an irrational love for the car.

lizard• 2 years ago

I don't have a problem so much with the touch screen itself. It's a waste for a lot a things and I frequently just turn my screen off, but it is nice to be able to bring up a map with directions and arrival estimates.

But I am constantly disappointed by just how awful and useless the software is.

Need some directions? Sorry, I can auto-play this music station you haven't used in a week, but if you want those directions you looked up on your way out the best I can do is (maybe) have the address in your recent search history.

Want to resume the music you were streaming from your phone through your media center? Yeah, just give me a few minutes to load up this other UI and...Are you sure you have a music app on your phone? Maybe you just need to add it to the car app? Here, let me bring that up on your phone screen. Hold up. There's some audio coming through the bluetooth, I'll just play that.

Want to see why the "Check Engine" light came on? Oh, well for that you need to buy a $50 dongle with Bluetooth and install an app on your phone.

globular-toast2• 2 years ago

I hate them in all applications that don't benefit from touch and even in many that do. For example, electric cookers. Despite being easier to clean I still find them absolutely infuriating to interact with, plus cats can activate them.

Most of the time, though, they are implemented simply because it's cheaper. There's no benefit to speak of. In fact, I think the only device for which a touch interface works is a smartphone. I can't think of any others.

maxdo2• 2 years ago

Windshield wipers should be 100% automated for majority of the cars

aembleton3• 2 years ago

Do any cars have 100% reliable rain detection?

freeAgent8• 2 years ago

Most are pretty good in my experience, with the exception of Tesla. Tesla’s auto-wipers are comically bad. They NEVER work well because they try to use a tiny camera mounted to the top of the windshield to determine when to trigger them. The camera is probably unable to actually focus on the windshield itself, especially since it is also used for the driver assistance features and has to be focused at road-distance, so my guess is they’re using some kind of algorithm to try and detect distortion caused by rain drops on the windshield for an image captured with focus significantly further away than the windshield surface itself. And that challenge has so far remained unsolved. Tesla just pretend to have working auto-wipers.

teeray• 2 years ago

The worst is when the touchscreen freezes and there is no master breaker switch to throw to reboot it “in flight.” You have to pull over, shut the car off, open the door, close the door, then start the car to reboot it.

ggreer3• 2 years ago

What car do you have that does this?

a-french-anon• 2 years ago

My parents' Mercedes-Benz SUV (GLC I think) has (had?) that problem.

evanjrowley2• 2 years ago

I am waiting for the day when mechanical keyboard enthusiasts finally put kailh hot swap sockets into a car's controls. Then we can have debates about whether car controls should be tactile, linear, or clicky. GMK keycaps for German cars. Japanese cars with Topre switches. Anime dye-sub keycaps on ricers. QMK firmware forked and re-written in MISRA-C. It would be grand.

golergka2• 2 years ago

Some people should be chiming in to say how annoying the click sounds are to the passengers.

evanjrowley2• 2 years ago

I wonder if RGB backlighting would increase or decrease safety.

asyx2• 2 years ago

I guess the passengers can take the bus then

llm_trw• 2 years ago

Obviously clicky, you want to know when actuation has actually happened. Just like keyboards.

delecti2• 2 years ago

I hate clicky keyboards, because there's usually a pretty quick on-screen result from hitting the button, and you might press keys tens of thousands of times in a day. Love me some tactile.

But in a car when you might interact with controls a couple dozen times per trip? Absolutely clicky.

valtism• 2 years ago

What car models are a good example of dashboard controls done right?

kfarr• 2 years ago

Those made in the late 90s

aembleton3• 2 years ago

Dacia Sandero

erulabs• 2 years ago

Eh. Let the market decide. Yes Tesla overdid the touch controls - but they were also the first company to put a touch screen that isn’t awful into a car. Yes, removing the stalks a going too far imo, but I can’t imagine how narrow my awareness of the world must be for that to register outrage.

I almost got hit by a porche 911 gt2 today. That car is completely mechanical - but it was being driven by an aggressive idiot; who gives a crap what the wiper button looks like. The controls haptic feedback must be at least on the 20 thousandth page of important things about a car.

The market doesn’t solve all problems - but if the touch controls are so awful, there are only two answer: either they’re not that awful, or tons of people are idiots and you’re really smart. You know, the fount of all bad legislation.

arrrg• 2 years ago

Euro NCAP is not a regulator. It tests the safety of cars and scores them in a way that‘s readable to potential buyers of cars.

Since potential buyers of cars can’t themselves test the safety of cars (they have neither the expertise nor the resources) this is pretty much the only way that exists to independently test the safety of cars in markets.

freeAgent8• 2 years ago

You can take comfort in the fact that the idiot’s repair costs will be ridiculously high. If you’re going to drive super aggressively on public roads, at least do it in a cheap car!

Wolfenstein98k• 2 years ago

I am instinctively opposed to the European way of regulation, but boy so I agree with this.

jameshart• 2 years ago

When they win that fight can we also get back analog speed gauges instead of numeric readouts?

It can be a digitally displayed graphic on a screen, but please give me a moving needle, not just some numbers that update twice a second.

seydor3• 2 years ago

This is why i m not buying the ex30, dear volvo

What's the cost difference between touchscreen vs controls?

Beijinger• 2 years ago

They should not bring back physical controls but make everything voice controlled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOUTfUmI8vs

modeless12• 2 years ago

Now, Euro NCAP is not insisting on everything being its own button or switch. But the organization wants to see physical controls for turn signals, hazard lights, windshield wipers, the horn, and any SOS features

This is much more reasonable than I assumed. Unlike seemingly most people here I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (of course the vast majority of car touchscreens are not, but some are). However, the absence of a physical speed control for the windshield wipers is the single worst design flaw of Teslas. Or at least it was, until they removed the physical turn signal controls. I'm very much in favor of requiring safety critical controls that must be used frequently or urgently to be physical.

tmikaeld• 2 years ago

…Teslas. Or at least it was, until they removed the physical turn signal controls.

The turn signals wasn’t removed, they moved them to the steering wheel as physical buttons. Which ofc isn’t optimal, because you turn it…

williamcotton2• 2 years ago

So that’s why everyone who drives a Tesla never uses their turn signal?

nehal3m2• 2 years ago

You’re supposed to signal before you turn the wheel.

Way too often I see people signaling as they turn, not because they are trying to communicate with other road users but because it’s the law. Indicate your intent first and then take the indicated action.

modeless12• 2 years ago

I would call them virtual buttons rather than true physical buttons, as they are capacitive touch buttons that don't depress and are missing a defined physical boundary. Granted, they are fixed in place and don't move. Except that, as you point out, they do move...

maccard2• 2 years ago

Which ofc isn’t optimal, because you turn it…

You're supposed to indicate before you turn, to be fair.

LeoPanthera2• 2 years ago

They're not physical buttons. They're touch sensors. They don't move or click.

iforgotpassword4• 2 years ago

But even then, how do you find the A/C or volume control on a touch screen without taking your eyes off the road, without accidentally touching something else? You just can't feel your way to the volume knob. Sure, you are a responsible driver and would only do that at a traffic light or other completely safe situation, but I don't know how many accidents touch controls in cars already caused with less responsible drivers, trying to adjust their AC while driving by an elementary school.

oven93422• 2 years ago

People have already died because of the screens “The ship's user interface [touch screen] was found to have contributed to the sailors' confusion.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_John_S._McCain_and_Alnic_M...

modeless12• 2 years ago

Volume is on the steering wheel.

A/C is automatic and I don't need to touch it the vast majority of the time. While driving the most I might want to do is adjust the temperature, and since it's not safety critical I can choose a convenient time. It's at the bottom of the screen so it is easy to do by grabbing behind the bezel and only requires a quick glance to align your thumb. In practice I glance at physical A/C controls when adjusting them too, so I don't see a big difference here.

If you really need to adjust the temperature so often and can't stand the thought of using the touchscreen, you can assign that function to the left scroll wheel.

maccard2• 2 years ago

You just can't feel your way to the volume knob

Yes you can. My last three cars have had a volume knob under the left thumb. My current car has a second volume knob behind the gearstick, and the A/C is the only analog dial along the center console. I can easily adjust both without looking away.

elif2• 2 years ago

I know it will cost me karma to point it out, but in a Tesla you can use voice control to adjust your AC/radio/navigation while your eyes are on the road and your car's 10 eyes are on the road.

vel0city8• 2 years ago

I don't change the AC while I'm in motion. All my cars have auto AC so I rarely touch them even as the temperature changes outside. I probably adjust the AC a handful of times a year. I'd rather not waste a lot of dashboard space on buttons that practically never get pressed, I'd rather have my map be even bigger and easier to quickly glance at and have more space to browse my media collection while stopped.

I don't understand how so many people have come across cars with seemingly terrible auto AC systems. Even my old 2000 Honda Accord had a competent auto AC system. I haven't had manual AC on any of my cars in decades. Whenever I rent a car it's always infuriating having to constantly muck with the AC system.

NovemberWhiskey2• 2 years ago

My car has no physical climate controls etc. I just use the voice controls.

“Hey Google, set the driver’s side heated seat to one”

“Hey Google, turn off the steering wheel heater”

snowfield2• 2 years ago

To be fair, the new EVs have pretty good adaptive wipers. I have not found the bed to actually overwrite this yet.

modeless12• 2 years ago

Not Teslas, unfortunately. The auto wipers are trash and always will be because Tesla refuses to add a dedicated sensor. It's a double whammy: handicapped auto mode and awful manual controls.

ahahahahah• 2 years ago

Cars for 15-20 years have had good automatic wipers, they're just becoming more widely available now (and evs are generally in the price range where it's expected). Well... except for Tesla. They decided that a person can tell when wipers are needed just by using their eyes, so certainly they could save a buck or so and do it using just a camera.

sundvor• 2 years ago

Tesla wiper? Just push the wiper button on the left stalk and you can cycle through the speed settings with the left funky switch (multi function button) in addition to the on screen display options that then pop up. Very easy to do.

Also this: https://youtube.com/shorts/3eKcDOHVZWc?si=-jL4o4Bhu-2y0ibj

Doesn't cover the left multi function button feature after short pressing the wiper button.

(Model 3, 2022, Australia).

modeless12• 2 years ago

Just push the wiper button on the left stalk and you can cycle through the speed settings with the left funky switch

Yes, they added this relatively recently. For the first few years I owned the car this was not possible. Also, guess what, it still sucks! More steps than a physical control, fiddly because of the short timeout, and still requires an extra step of looking at the touchscreen because you can't know which way to push the wheel without finding out the current setting. Is it on "Auto" or "Off"? They're at opposite ends of the menu. Acceptable for something less important like setting the A/C temperature; definitively not acceptable for something safety critical like wipers.

rvba• 2 years ago

Controls should be standardized across cars.

Imagine that someone rents a car and is tired + every manufacturer has their own konami code, or secret button to start the wipers. That's how accidents happen.

paganel• 2 years ago

That's just lame, sorry to say it. I'll start with the end by saying that most probably voice command won't work in a downpour, for the simple reason that downpours are usually associated with lots of noise that will cancel out your voice commands. And all the other "options" involve taking your eyes off the road and looking at a big screen in order to adjust wiper speed, all this while there's a potential downpour happening. That is a very big no from me. And, no, "automatic" wipers never do their job perfectly when it comes do downpours, you always have to adjust them in one way or another.

Granted, that guy that posted it was from Australia so that they probably don't have that sort of downpour problem over there (the same goes for places in the US like California or Texas).

ClikeX• 2 years ago

Volume control is a very commonly used feature in cars. That should definitely should be a physical button. I drive a Lynk & Co (reskinned Volvo XC40) and it has a rotary knob on the center terminal for fan speed, temperature, and volume. Which are all within reach without me having to look or lean over. There's also a volume button on the steering wheel next to my thumb, which is great.

The only annoying part is that the left button pad on the wheel is the absolute worst. It's essentially a d-pad with a center press, but it's one single button cover. Which leads to a lot of wrong clicks.

modeless12• 2 years ago

Is there a car without a physical volume control? Teslas have it on the steering wheel.

What really kills me is my wife's Civic has no pause button at all, physical or otherwise. And it autoplays media on your phone when you get in. Don't want your phone to play whatever random YouTube video you happened to click on hours ago? Gotta pick up your phone to pause it there. And this doesn't happen right away, oh no, it takes at least a minute into your drive for the Bluetooth to wake up.

Slartie3• 2 years ago

But you are not legally required to use the volume control regularly in order to drive safely. You are not even legally required to have any kind of volume control in your car.

You are legally required to have and use the turn signals. You are legally required to have and use the windshield wipers (because you need to be able to see the road when it's raining). Same is true for the horn and hazard lights - those are safety-critical features, with their use at least partially regulated by law.

While I agree that volume control should be a physical button due to my personal taste, I would not go so far as to mandate it legally to be a physical button, with the reason being that it is not a safety-critical feature. The market can figure this out by itself. But for safety-critical features whose swift and correct use is mandated and regulated by law, I would absolutely mandate them to be provided to the user in a way that supports the swift and uninterrupting use expected from the driver, and that means: physical controls, placed reasonably reachable.

Kuinox2• 2 years ago

I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls

Fan controls are important to remove fog on the windows. I should be able to enable it without looking away the road.

modeless12• 2 years ago

If you live in a place where this is frequently required, in a Tesla you can put the defrost button on the shortcut bar at the bottom of the screen, where it only requires a quick glance to align your thumb to activate it. Which is actually easier than many cars with physical controls that may require multiple button presses and/or knob turns to configure all of the correct climate settings for defrosting in the current conditions.

vel0city8• 2 years ago

Properly defrosting/defogging the windows would be more than just a fan control. Ideally you want to ensure the AC compressor and heat are both running and you need to change the vent settings.

Far better to have a dedicated defrost button next to the driver's normal controls that does it all as a single toggle rather than have the driver make multiple adjustments. Which is what I have on both of my cars, one of which people complain about how it's just a giant touchscreen.

sensanaty3• 2 years ago

Teslas don't have physical blinker switches?? That is pure lunacy, are you telling me they're touchscreen activated now?

LeoPanthera2• 2 years ago

They are touch areas on the steering wheel. It's not on the screen, but they're not buttons. They don't click.

OvbiousError• 2 years ago

From the article:

Tesla is probably at greatest risk here, having recently ditched physical stalks that instead move the turn signal functions to haptic buttons on the steering wheel.

lm2s• 2 years ago

On recent models they removed the stalks and put blinker buttons in the steering wheel.

Yizahi• 2 years ago

Tesla planned that everything in the car would be automated, including driving. In such case people don't need a thought out UI and responsive controls and all that can be cut down to either save money or to focus on media entertainment for the passengers. That's why they replaced steering wheel with a yoke, buttons with screens etc. Unfortunately they forgot that car need to be fully automated first, and then redesigned later. Not the other way around.

ainiriand• 2 years ago

It is even worse, because the buttons are placed on top of the steering wheel so when you turn they also turn in place and it is confusing.

CorrectHorseBat2• 2 years ago

However, the absence of a physical speed control for the windshield wipers is the single worst design flaw of Teslas.

The fog lights are much worse

Hamuko2• 2 years ago

Highly doubt it considering that fog lights have very limited use compared to the windshield wiper.

ojosilva2• 2 years ago

How about the voice commands for these? ("Wipers 1-slash-4"). I just got my first Tesla, MYLR, and even though it's annoying not having the stalks given the rain sensor is absolute junk the voice command seems to work 98% of the time. The voice command is activated from a button on the steering wheel - it may require a network connection though. I haven't tried the fog lights, it may not have a command, but there's apparently a shortcut with the left stalk where you pull or push and a quick light menu comes up - 2 clicks instead of 1 but seems reasonable - I could never find my fog lights quickly enough on most of my previous cars anyway.

My only concern with the wipers would be for an emergency, ie the street washers drive by and suddenly I have no visibility, but for those situations I have the button on the left stalk that fires the wipers on demand.

nottorp5• 2 years ago

with fan controls

I want at the least a physical recirculate/bring air from outside button.

The use case is coming up behind a vintage truck that was made before they even thought of pollution standards on a winding mountain road where you can't overtake and you need to pay attention to the road. And you also need to set the a/c to recirculate before you suffocate.

For audio... with radio dying or dead I guess you can just run Spotify the whole trip. I'd still like volume and mute buttons.

anilakar• 2 years ago

I'm going one step further and arguing that if a function has no physical control, it's not essential but just a distraction and should be done away with.

jajko• 2 years ago

Even if I wouldn't be hating Musk for his position re actual freedom and his apparent respect for murderous dictators, these moves would solidly cement Tesla as a company I wouldn't buy a car from.

Stupid, arrogant moves nobody asked for pushed down the throats of unsuspecting users. A colleague's model 3 died during rain (apparently its such a solidly built car that a bit more than normal amount of rain can kill it for good, got replaced without questions which indicates this is a well known issue). Newer version didn't have physical turn signals. He was almost crying, an early adopter with a lot of love for the company that evaporated in an instance. Its not every day that car manufacturer actively tries to increase chances of people getting killed and acts like all is fine.

elif2• 2 years ago

What's the difference between "physical turn signal controls" and "physical buttons with haptic feedback"?

kanapala• 2 years ago

A physical control changes position and stays in that position so you can feel it to know if your turn signal is on for example.

Real button changes position when you press it. Haptic button is flat surface with vibrating motor inside that buzzes so it "feels" like a click. Like in a smartphone.

The ones I have seen have a lag, so you don't immediately know if your button press was registered or not.

andrepd• 2 years ago

I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen

Why? What's the difference? You fiddle with these as well while you're driving, and they're also dangerous and distracting.

kwhitefoot2• 2 years ago

However, the absence of a physical speed control for the windshield wipers is the single worst design flaw of Teslas.

My 2015 Model S has a stalk with a rotary switch for wiper control that includes several automatic and manual modes and speeds.

But I was loaned a Model 3 when my Model S was being repaired and I hated it because most of the stalks had been removed making things like cruise control and the radio much more awkward to use.

MyFirstSass• 2 years ago

No just make buttons. Screens can hickup, scroll weird, etc. also you don't get any tactile feedback.

I don't wan't a touchscreen keyboard on my laptop, and the travel is already small enough - i say bring back tactility! The dead cold glass orb has destroyed so much.

mavhc• 2 years ago

Let's check all those items with the Tesla Model 3 2024 manual

To engage a turn signal, press the corresponding arrow button on the left side of the steering wheel. (The buttons move on the Highland steering wheel)

Turn signals: To turn on the hazard warning flashers, press the button on the drive mode selector located on the overhead center. All turn signals flash. Press again to turn off.

Hazard lights: Overhead console drive mode selector with arrow pointing to hazard warning light button in the middle.

If a severe crash is detected by your vehicle, the hazard warning flashers will automatically turn on and flash quickly to increase visibility. Pressing the hazard warning flashers once will return the lights to their normal cadence. Pressing a second time turns all hazard warning flashers off.

To sound the horn, press and hold the center pad on the steering wheel.

You can access wiper settings by touching the wiper button on the steering wheel

Press the wiper button on the steering wheel to wipe the windshield.

Press and hold the wiper button to spray washer fluid onto the windshield. After releasing the button, the wipers perform two additional wipes then, depending on vehicle and environmental conditions, a third wipe a few seconds later. You can also press and hold the wiper button for a continuous spray of washer fluid—the wipers perform the wipes after you release.

Whenever you press the wiper button on the steering wheel, the touchscreen displays the wiper menu, allowing you to adjust wiper settings. Press the left scroll button on the steering wheel left or right to choose your desired setting.

Off/Auto/Intermittent slow/fast/Continuous slow/fast

trogdor• 2 years ago

I can’t believe that Tesla still ships cars without a center-press horn button.

I own a Model S Plaid, and the horn button’s location on the yoke can generally only be reached by the driver’s right hand. Even more dangerous, its position in space changes dramatically any time you are in the middle of a turn. The horn button is not easy to press in an emergency.

Same story with the turn signals.

If you are in the middle of a turn and you have rotated the yoke 180-degrees, your turn signal buttons are now upside-down, and on the other side of the yoke. I have owned my car for a year and a half, and there are still times when I have to look at the yoke mid-turn to figure out which turn signal button is which.

So stupid.

archon810• 2 years ago

100000% this. It's mind boggling that they managed to ship a car without the center horn, and it's even more mind-boggling that the NHTSA let and is still letting them.

I got used to the turn signals and the wipers because I use them a lot. But I still haven't gotten used to the horn and the lights because these functionalities are used very infrequently, so there is no muscle memory for them at all. I've had this car for over a year now.

ambichook• 2 years ago

my current car (tk barina) has two horn buttons just to the left and right of where you expect a centre horn to be and it drives me insane. i dont typically feel the need to use the horn but whenever i do i have to make the conscious decision to press my thumb in on one of those specific spots because theyre also small enough that using the heel of your palm to do it feels wrong

roeles• 2 years ago

Given that you are most likely to use the horn to prevent an collision, and that during collisions the airbag deploys.. I would say that the center of the wheel is just about the worst place to put the horn button. Slapping yourself in the face somehow seems worse than the airbag deploying properly.

flatline• 2 years ago

My Jeep Wrangler has a physical volume knob that may or may not elicit a change in volume when turned within the first 30 seconds of starting the car. Which can be literally deafening if you had on e.g. a podcast at 75% volume when you turned the car off and it turned back on to the radio. Some of these things need a dedicated circuit.

stronglikedan• 2 years ago

The 2022 Acura MDX has that too, but it's not a "may or may not", it just doesn't. Thankfully they fixed it in the 2023 model, but I still don't understand why it's not fixed in the 2022 model since it's obviously software and both get OTA updates.

sandworm101• 2 years ago

> I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (of course the vast majority of car touchscreens are not, but some are).

It was -27f/-33c this morning when I started my car. At those temperatures ALL touchscreens generally become slow and unresponsive, especially when wearing mittens. I want the defrost/fan/temperature controls on a physical switch. I also don't want a screen that isn't happy unless it is getting a full 12v/14v. Not all car batteries will give that when cold. Frankly, I'd be happy with a series of valves ... anything other than a touchscreen.

Fyi, automatic wipers are a nightmare in winter. It is very easy for them to break if caked in snow. Standard procedure being to start the car first and let it warm up as you remove the snow and ice. So you need them to be on a physical switch to ensure they are off prior to turning the car on.

NoobSaibot135• 2 years ago

the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (of course the vast majority of car touchscreens are not, but some are)

Normal refresh cycle period for tablets(iPads) is ~5 years.

Normal life of a car is 10 years (2x).

That means that by year 7 or so, multi-touch performance in autos starts to seriously lag consumer tablet market.

Perhaps we need to have a replaceable/swappable infotainment console now

hot_cereal2• 2 years ago

I don't hate that Tesla tried to do something different with indicators. I think there are some issues with how stalks work, and thinking about how to make cars better and safer is good. Complicated stalks that make adjusting your wipers feel like playing a game of Bop-It? Total pain in the ass. And assuming something is well designed because that's how it's been done for decades is obviously silly.

But that doesn't make it wrong to do the research, go through the design process, and come to the conclusion that, in the end, putting blinkers on a stalk is still better than the alternatives proposed. It reeks of change for the sake of being different, rather than an actual innovation.

My biggest issue with the choice is that, on a wheel, indicator buttons are constantly moving. And when the buttons are right next to each other, it makes it significantly easier to indicate the wrong direction. Or have to take your eyes off the road to find the indicator when your wheel isn't straight (suppose you're trying to exit a roundabout)

And then with the lack of dashboard on some teslas, there's the knock on problem of having to look away from the road to see which way you're indicating if you think you've indicated incorrectly, rather than the indicator arrow clearly flashing at the bottom of your field of vision.

whitehexagon• 2 years ago

I never want to see a car with any kind of monitor/touchscreen, I see enough of those at work.

If it is about cost savings, why do I see a new plague of animated flashing indicator lights, horrible! And the number of small towns I drove through on my last big road trip that had flashing LEDs dotted all over road signs, crazy. Reminds me of the old flashing web adverts. Just another annoying distraction from driving safely.

I'd like to see some rules like, no change is speed limit within certain distance of previous sign. Because suddenly we have a plague of signs, e.g. every 100m reducing the speed for a roundabout in 10km/h steps! are we allowing drivers on the roads that dont know to slow down in advance of a junction. And the best part, the roundabout has 'go around arrows' flashing in blue (the colour of police lights here) so straight away you assume a major traffic incident ahead, and then probably quickly learn to ignore blue flashing lights...

So physical buttons need to be the start of a bigger push-back against needless technology based on 'because we can'.

switch007• 2 years ago

My Ford has no physical buttons for climate control (except “Max”). If I want to direct the air at the windscreen and my feet full blast, I have to:

- Tap the fan direction button

- wait 2 seconds for it to load

- tap windscreen and feet. Each selection lags at least 1 second

- tap fan speed

- drag a narrow, laggy slider up/down to the desired position

I hate it. The auto setting doesn’t blow the feet hard enough when it’s wet, to dry your feet. It’s wet about 9 months of the year here.

Another bad UX is to change the drive mode:

- press the physical button

- tap the screen to select the desired mode

- tap a tiny back button (there is no timeout to auto go back to previous screen)

You would think the physical button would toggle through the modes, but no !

filcuk• 2 years ago

MG4, when I turn on A/C or defog, the navigation is overlayed by an A/C controls screen, which must be tapped in a specific small area to get rid of it. I still fumble with it every damn time after six months of use.

dTP90pN• 2 years ago

You can "wipe"/"drag" upwards to exit the A/C overlay (just like, for example, android quick settings/notifications).

Of course, you have to do this the "correct way", which in and of itself requires a bit of experimentation to learn.

seydor3• 2 years ago

The most important thing is that, all this time, your attention is on the screen and not on the road

Kwpolska2• 2 years ago

Tesla is probably at greatest risk here, having recently ditched physical stalks that instead move the turn signal functions to haptic buttons on the steering wheel.

What the actual fuck? Who thought that replacing such a common function with the least reliable input method possible (capacitive "buttons") was a good idea?

Also, if I get into a rental car or whatever, I don't need to learn basic controls with sane manufacturers, because they're fairly standard. If I get into a rental Tesla, do I need to read the owner's manual first?

iforgotpassword4• 2 years ago

I'm confused now. I haven't been in a current Tesla, but what do we refer to when we say haptic button nowadays? To me that's synonymous to tactile button = physical button, but you talk about capacitive buttons. Did Apple's introduction of haptic feedback for touch somehow shift the meaning?

izacus3• 2 years ago

As far as I know the latest refresh of 3 brought back physical buttons. Did you test that one?

Capacitive buttons are the ones that don't physically move and give no feedback.

masklinn3• 2 years ago

To me that's synonymous to tactile button = physical button

Why would we need a synonym for a perfectly working word? A physical button is a physical button, to me a haptic button necessarily means some sort of virtual button as otherwise the haptic properties don’t have to be specified.

Kwpolska2• 2 years ago

Capacitive buttons, i.e. an absolute trainwreck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6e_gNdxs_s

badgersnake• 2 years ago

If a touchscreen is on a phone it’s illegal and dangerous but if it’s stuck to the dash it’s not. That never made any sense.

mannycalavera42• 2 years ago

say their names: all the "UX experts" who pushed for their removal

mrweasel• 2 years ago

If any UX testing had been done on these cars it would have been noticed that the drivers eyes drift from the road for far to long while operating auxiliary features. These large glass interfaces are meant as eye candy and/or cost saving.

It's really sad that companies no longer care to do any type of UX research, we need it more than ever. There are so few good product left in pretty much all product categories. It seems that with the introduction of the iPhone even Apple has opted to just stop doing any type of research and experimentation into UX.

rsynnott3• 2 years ago

I'd assume that the car touchscreens were driven more by cost cutting than input from UX experts.

axegon_• 2 years ago

Yes, please. I drive an early 2010's BMW with an aftermarket android head unit. The headunit was not a big deal for me but it was useful since maps were wildly out of date and upgrading them was a pain in the ass and having music, live traffic and all that is appreciated but that's all it is. Now... There one or two things I hate about the car. First one is not having a temperature gauge. Instead BMW added this fuel consumption gauge which couldn't be more useless. The second thing I hate is the way the indicator switch works. I got used to it but holy hell, why were BMW so keen on fixing a problem no one had. Keeping this in mind, the whole touchscreen control from everything from fan speed to driving mode is ridiculous: you actually have to turn your head and look at the screen, whereas in my car I can do that without looking at the buttons at all: I more or less know where the button is and it's size, shape and texture. Modern cars are the exact indicator switch problem BMW was trying to solve, but cranked up to 11.

fecker2• 2 years ago

Physical controls and warm white lights

You piss about with the touchscreen to change the temperature and lookup to be blinded by an oncoming 4x4 with low beam led's

gnegggh• 2 years ago

I’ve had the model 3 highland since it came out and still not used to it. Definitely a safety issue.

Turn signals and vipers including speed should be physical and not a non tactile button.

Love the car otherwise but kinda just want it with a screen that’s 1/3rd the size, CarPlay and speed and such in front of the wheel.

Never used Netflix or any of that stuff. Controlling music via your phone app is easier anyway, since you’re used to that interface.

hankman863• 2 years ago

Poor usability and the generally spartan interior are the reasons why I did not even look at Tesla and ordered a BMW i4 instead. Sadly, they too have moved functions like the aircon into the touch screen.

But at least you still get a driver dash with head up display, proper indicator stalks, real leather seats and quality materials throughout.

Franzeus• 2 years ago

I am so tired of seeing touch everywhere in general. Not just in cars, but putting the touch buttons on the stove is such a fail. Water spills out of the pot and locks the stove or you can't even touch the buttons because they are too hot.

knorker2• 2 years ago

I rented a fully specced out Tesla Model S, once. That's not a cheap car. But the turn signal controls were shitty no-feedback buttons.

I don't understand how anyone plowing six digits into a car finds that acceptable. It's a dealbreaker for me.

On top of that there were other "virtualizations" of controls, that just made the car feel like a cheap shitty plastic toy.

marzipanWhale• 2 years ago

I got rid of my last car many years ago when cars still had casette players. What kind of controls do you really need in a car? I realize that a lot of cars have built in GPS now, but in my opinion all controls that require typing or looking at a screen should be disabled until the car is stopped.

globular-toast2• 2 years ago

These people basically live in their cars. Imagine just sitting on your bicycle without actually going somewhere on it. Seems weird, but that's what they do. These controls are all for the mobile living room aspect. Nothing to do with driving.

Zenst• 2 years ago

It is somewhat crazy that the shift to a touch screen, which for some, is hard to use and for all, lacks tactile feedback. You can't beat a button or a dial-in in that respect or even replicate that fully on the limitations of a touchscreen.

It almost feels like there is an untapped market for after-market physical controls that can interface with the car that is begging to be tapped. Equally, shudder if somebody patented the ability to add physical controls to augment touch interfaces.

squarefoot2• 2 years ago

I couldn't agree more. Touch screen aren't cool, they're a necessary inconvenience where there's no room for physical controls (ie, phones and tablets) and can have some uses in multimedia systems, but using them for driving related or critical controls in cars is both stupid and dangerous: latency and lack of feedback could distract the driver attention away from the road, then a single hit on the screen and the user loses all controls at the same time.

berkes• 2 years ago

they're a necessary inconvenience where there's no room for physical controls

Hear, hear!

and yet, SpaceX thought it was a good idea to make the controls in their space ships mostly touchscreens as well. Utterly insane, IMHO.

squarefoot2• 2 years ago

It was already stated (possibly here or a space related blog) that they have all critical controls replicated on mechanical switches.

mihaaly• 2 years ago

Apart from the logical notion of fix location tactile feedback physical buttons are much much better (reliable!) in mission critical systems than pleasuring a glass with the strokes of you finger in heist discovery what is what and where (that the US navy also discovered through bitter and tragic experience [1]) as a complicating factor the user hostile software engineering practices where The Product is in the focus and drawing lots of additional attention, requiring constant self training - ironically presented as 'intuitive' or 'simple' - additional frequent maintenance and care, more than necessary (updates, settings, confirmations, feature promotions, suggestions, configurations, customizations), not to mention the manipulation of the user into something as the main focus in making apps nowadays instead of serving in the background, also not to mention the constant spying for their own sake only, also the constant f ups making the system dangerously fragile through complexity that additional steps and even more user attentions is essential(!) to preserve the integrity against intruders - making it even more complex and so, fragile -, and that this became a totally accepted treat of software from a huge set of users as well - several times arguing aginst themselves by praising and 'explaining' (no, citing a particular viewpoint is not an explanation alone) - but at least not condemned beyond private audience or leading to refusal, therefore when we talk about our next car an older model (likely used) with traditional dashboard is an overwhelmingly dominant choice with my wife. After our current 'old' and traditional one. The irony is that I make software for living, I am supposed to love using software. No, I do not. In general, regrettably. Should be pushed out of many places it got into along undigested rush (and many times dumb) ideas. Like this, like the dashboard of a car, replacing well known and familiar ways with something else. Should I instead be greateful that we still have steering wheel and pedals instead of a gamepad?....

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49319450

eterevsky• 2 years ago

I'm generally sympathetic to this (I have a Tesla and I wish they used traditional turn signal stalks). But is the set of prescriptive rules really the way to evaluate the safety of the car? Wouldn't some statistics like the number of crashes per 1m km be more informative?

jwr• 2 years ago

I have a VW (ID.4) and they took the touch craziness to another level. There are things that don't look like buttons, but are touch-sensitive, and there are also buttons, that apart from being pressure-sensitive, are also touch sensitive. Like volume buttons on the steering wheel, where if you try to feel for them without looking, you end up accidentally "swiping" and turning your volume up to the max.

The whole touch cluster on the left of the steering wheel, just below the vent, is a disaster, too. If I want to check the temperature of the air that's blowing into the cabin, I end up accidentally turning off the lights, turning on rear antifog lights, and turning on defroster heating for the windshield. The next minute or so is spent trying to get everything back to normal.

The rule should be that everything in the car needs to be a physically actuated button, and touching those buttons without pressing them should only ever light them up or show help messages, never perform any action.

Vespasian5• 2 years ago

I ultimately decided against an MEB based model because the (steering wheel) UX felt almost unusable during my test drive. I partcularily struggeled with the cruise control swipe-click and hilariously the window switch.

The car i ultimately settled on has worse overall infotainment software but physical controls which can be operated blindely and reliably.

No wonder VW is already in the process of correcting this disastrous, budget driven, decision.

hef198984• 2 years ago

VW went so far into left field with their controls on the ID-series, it is embarassing. Good to hear that they correct.

Maakuth2• 2 years ago

And how much cheaper can this stuff really be than real buttons?

moogly4• 2 years ago

Doesn't Skoda have pretty sensible steering wheels still?

kevincox• 2 years ago

The machine was rather difficult to operate. For years radios had been operated by means of pressing buttons and turning dials; then as the technology became more sophisticated the controls were made touch-sensitive--you merely had to brush the panels with your fingers; now all you had to do was wave your hand in the general direction of the components and hope. It saved a lot of muscular expenditure, of course, but meant that you had to sit infuriatingly still if you wanted to keep listening to the same program.

By Douglas Adams in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

ndsipa_pomu• 2 years ago

Can people please stop implementing ideas that were intended as satire?

Silasdev• 2 years ago

Did Douglas Adams travel in time.... this is scarily accurate!!! My BMW keeps turning off the volume if I wave at anything in the direction of the touchscreen. There is a little infrared camera near the roof that can sense hand-gestures and turn volume up or down ... and lots of other things.

Douglas Adams so spot on I want to cry!

maxerickson• 2 years ago

I bet you get bad controls even with a rigid prescription.

And then your rigid rule would prevent something like having a touch menu for a setup function that you would never have good reason to adjust while driving. Likely making it worse.

parchley• 2 years ago

I took and ID3 for a test drive, an accidentally activated the speed limiter on the highway. That got quite scary, and it took ages to realize I had to swipe on one of the fake buttons to disable it.

Compared to ID4, ID3 has another epic cost saving measure: They removed the two switches for the rear windows from the driver door, and replaced it with a toggle switch that decides whether the switches for the front windows really control the front windows, or the rear ones. So in total they saved one physical switch, but made the user experience much worse.

I also skipped the entire ID-family due to that. At least the Enyaq (Skoda's ID4) has a much better setup with physical buttons on the steering wheel, and more physical buttons for the console.

matsemann• 2 years ago

Same. Rented an ID3 for a weekend. Will never drive one again. Almost lethal design decisions on that car.

btown• 2 years ago

An ability to turn volume up to the max, unintentionally, is a safety issue, IMO. And more generally, I wonder how many “took my eye off the road for the radio” accident reports are actually a result of bad physical UX.

jval43• 2 years ago

I was in the market for a car, and initially really wanted a Tesla or VW / ID, but with no buttons, no dials, and on the Tesla additionally no parking sensors, wonky rain sensors combined with missing stalks and no straight-on speedometer, it quickly became clear to me these were all potential usability and safety issues.

I found a nice Toyota instead with a button for every function, and everything just works.

helij• 2 years ago

May I ask which Toyota. Did you go with their EV model?

andix• 2 years ago

I think it’s really hard to get good UX by setting up some simple rules. In the end we need good UX, however this is done.

For things like lights or wipers the solutions from the past are quite good I would say.

For things like the Tesla turn signal buttons I would actually prefer to have both buttons and the traditional stalk. Depending on the situation one is superior of the other.

marginalien• 2 years ago

I have been driving an ID.4 for almost three years by now. I consider much of what others criticize here in terms of UI, touch-sensitive buttons etc. to be „not great“ either but it did work for me. I didn’t really care to be honest.

What did not work for me was the re-charging experience on longer trips. I do not want to „subscribe“ to anything just to recharge my car in a reasonable amount of time. But even with a hypercharger it still takes way too long and without the „right“ subscription you feel like they steal your money from you. This is the worst from my POV when it comes to EVs, this is where they felt like inferior technology and business model to me as a consumer. Guess what, even though I was always a fan of EVs and hybrids (even drove three different models of Toyota Prius prior to my ID.4) my next car will be a traditional one (Hyundai Tucson to be precise).

dang• 2 years ago

(We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39600257)

lupusreal• 2 years ago

Apparently "physical controls" in new cars now work almost as badly as touch screens. Turn the fan speed knob then wait two agonizing seconds before the fan speed changes. Gods know what kind of telemetry they stuck in the middle of that operation to gum up the works.

seydor3• 2 years ago

I wonder if there should be criminal liabilities against designers and engineers who create such monstrosities, especially now that every EV refuses to have any physical buttons. This can end up being life-threatening

Toorkit• 2 years ago

And fuck off with the Lane assist nonsense, it doesn't work in the hilly backwaters of Europe. It actively tries to pull you into on-coming traffic.

plaidfuji• 2 years ago

Preach. Very little further “innovation” required for turn signals, lights, wipers, windows, mirrors, seat heaters, horn (?!), gear shifter, HVAC, radio.

I love the direction of recent Toyotas that have actually made the driver and passenger side temp. controls even larger knobs than before, with rubberized grips. Also generally pleased with BMW’s iDrive knob to control the center screen for more complex menu-based controls.

Maps/Nav is the only thing that should require a touch screen, and the best interface for that is to delegate to the driver’s phone via CarPlay. Yes, having to lean over and use an index finger to interact with a touch screen while moving is unsafe. Hope the US follows suit.

Shorel• 2 years ago

It is a bit insane that simracers now have better wheels than real life cars.

https://mozaracing.com/moza-tsw-steering-wheel

i_am_proteus• 2 years ago

Will the physical controls still route through the infotainment system- and will that solve the responsiveness problem?

moogly4• 2 years ago

This is absolutely wonderful. As someone who has only had a driver's license for about a year, it feels beyond scary to start fiddling with a touch screen to do anything of import while driving.

bengale3• 2 years ago

I think my BMW X5 has the best middle ground for buttons vs touchscreen. I think in the new one they've moved more towards my i4 setup though which is too far on the touch screen.

The X5 has nice push buttons on the steering wheel for media control and stuff like cruise and lanekeep functions. Then it also has heating controls, a volume knob, and some shortcut buttons I can control. All the other gubbins is in the touch screen which works fine.

My i4 moved heating controls to the touchscreen too and dropped the shortcut buttons which is annoying. It still has the nice steering wheel buttons though and a volume knob but it's heading the wrong way IMHO.

drooopy• 2 years ago

Systems that are vital to the operation of a moving vehicle should never under any circumstances force the driver to take their eyes off the road even for a split second to interact with them. It's mindblowing that this was even allowed to happen in the first place.

bamboozled• 2 years ago

Is the actual reason for getting rid of physical buttons because screens are actually easier to implement ?

bloomingeek• 2 years ago

I have a 2021 Ram Classic 1500 "plain Jane" truck. The only option it has is the tow package and the medium size touch screen. To adjust the HVAC air flow, you have to go to the touch screen! (you can adjust the fan speed with a dial.) The cab on this truck is pretty large, so adjusting from the lower vent to the defroster vent is quite risky while going down the road.

On my wife's Pacifica, the fan speed dial is also a button that can be used to change the vent settings, which is much more safer. Why Mopar didn't include this on my truck is anybodies guess.

exabrial• 2 years ago

I would look at aviation like displays, buttons on side, but based upon paging.

Tactile feedback is important.

rareitem• 2 years ago

The European union is really taking big positive initiatives recently (usb-c, removable batteries, physical controls, etc)

michaelteter• 2 years ago

Bumpy roads are the bane of touch sensitive interfaces.

Without any doubt, a driver will spend more time and attention trying to operate a touch sensitive interface than a physical knob or button if the car is bouncing or shaking at all due to road surface irregularities.

Not all roads are smooth highways (and some highways are in a horrible state of repair), so managing car systems without physical controls is almost as dangerous as operating a mobile phone.

amelius• 2 years ago

They would have known this way sooner if they had just read HN ...

DrScientist• 2 years ago

What I can't understand is why, when so much money is spent on the design of new car models, such bad decisions were ever made in the first place.

Did not one person say- "you know this is a really bad idea?"

'Touch screen' in this context an oxymoron - as it can't be operated solely by touch - you need to be looking at it.

gkfasdfasdf• 2 years ago

The voice commands on my Tesla are pretty handy and I prefer to use them over the touch screen when possible. 'Set wipers to auto', 'Set temperature to <NUM>', and 'Open glovebox' are my go-tos. Main downside is that it requires cellular/internet connectivity.

KomoD• 2 years ago

Yes, please. It's just so much better.

quitit2• 2 years ago

It is mind-boggling that we are at this point.

I understand that reducing buttons has a cost-saving and reliability benefit, but it's unfathomable that core and frequently used controls are reduced to touch screens while emphatically stating that a driver must not be distracted by the screen while driving. I've lost all trust in car manufacturers that do this, it's not just wrong, it's obviously dangerous.

jolmg• 2 years ago

Reliability benefit?

quitit2• 2 years ago

Physical buttons can break and be permanently affected by moisture.

wintorez• 2 years ago

I test drove a 2024 Tesla Model 3. It was a perfect car except for one thing: No turn signal stalk. That's basically a no-go for me.

ajmurmann• 2 years ago

The ideal car control has the following: Everything that was in the car twenty years ago needs to have physical buttons. This includes the controls for the audio system that were there twenty years ago. The touch screen should be exclusively be exclusively reserved for CarPlay or Android Auto, no overlays or pop ups or anything from the car manufacturer. Ideally there is a second screen, maybe in the mirror like some BMWs hav, to be used for the backup camera. Car companies should stick to what they are strong at and what they have perfected and not mess with it while they leave the fun software stuff to SV companies.

dorukane• 2 years ago

It is like a 2+2=4 equation that touchscreen blocks more time out of the road to carry out simple controls over the car.

Mazda in 2019: “And of course with a touchscreen you have to be looking at the screen while you’re touching...so for that reason we were comfortable removing the touch-screen functionality,” And still to this day, Mazda has minimum controls over a touchscreen.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...

jacktribe• 2 years ago

Self driving will largely make this topic irrelevant soon, however in the meantime, their time would be better spent developing a measurement of intuitiveness for touchscreens.

With a few exceptions that they've since corrected, in a Tesla operating most functions comes naturally, it's similar to using an iPhone. Even the lack of gear shifter in the Cybertruck isn't throwing me off (though they did put an additional touch control for it by the rear view mirror).

amai• 2 years ago

Too bad we don‘t have crash testers in the IT industry.

penguin_booze• 2 years ago

Good. Now ban SUVs and other aircraft carriers on wheels, or tax them at 100% rate, every year.

rmnwski• 2 years ago

This vivid discussion really makes me want to see what Apple did come up with for the UI. I doubt they made it all touch screens. But Apple might have had one of the biggest influences on car UIs. After the iPhone came out all the car makers wanted to be cool as well and put them in?

Nemi• 2 years ago

This is totally off topic and will likely get downvoted, but the topic of whether physical controls in a vehicle is a non-issue or critically important is the kind of conversation I want to have when interviewing a prospective employee. It conveys so much in so relatively little. It shows:

* Empathy for others

* The ability to place oneself in an imaginary situation when using something and project what it might be like for you and others using that thing in all kinds of situations

* Evaluate something objectively even when you have sunk costs (say if someone spent a lot of money on a Tesla or something)

* most importantly, the persons judgement. How they view this topic of whether physical controls are important or not shows basic judgement, or lack thereof. That translates over into SO many other areas of life. As an employer, it tells you everything you need to know about whether this person is going to be a good decision maker or someone you have to micro-manage their every decision.

rglynn• 2 years ago

I wonder if it's possible to make adaptive surfaces on touch screens using the developments in bending displays. Being able to provide physical cues on a touch screen would have a wide array of applications.

Obviously physical buttons would be the sensible solution here though.

European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

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