Apple Introduces AirTag

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/04/apple-introduces-airtag/

by davidbarker • 5 years ago

947 922 5 years ago

Interesting that I never knew the “Find My” network has all my devices participating in finding other people’s devices, but I’m not surprised. Another reason I leave Bluetooth off by default.

asadlionpk• 5 years ago

What's wrong with that?

thebouv2• 5 years ago

I don't want my device sending or receiving any data using my data plan without my knowing. Do apps I have installed send shit constantly? Sure. But those are MY apps -- that's on me for using them. But if someone else has a tag, and I'm near it, my phone shouldn't be used to send/receive data about said tag at all. I definitely don't like this "we created a network of devices and everyone is opted in" setup.

Similar to the hub-bub raised of Alexa devices "sharing" internet connectivity.

duckfang• 5 years ago

     1. No informed consent that your device can do this
     2. No positive consent to use it
     3. No positive consent to allow others to use it on your behalf
     4. Who controls the spy network? 
     5. They are using your bandwidth and device (similar to theft of resources, albeit trivial amounts)

passivate• 5 years ago

Not the OP, but I would turn it off simply to conserve battery life. I'm still rocking a 6s, and my phone gets slower and doesn't last as long with every update.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the updates, but I'd also like to maximize the battery life.

carlosdp• 5 years ago

It's privacy preserving with a rotating key scheme, there's a cool whitepaper about it that I'm having trouble finding right now, but here's an article: https://www.wired.com/story/apple-find-my-cryptography-bluet...

zelly2• 5 years ago

They already know where you are because of the GPS chip and mobile data. This is just the final step to find/fingerprint non-Apple and possibly non-internet connected devices.

Think of all the interesting things you could do with a worldwide bluetooth mesh network, and they choose to use it for surveillance. Lol.

eneloopy2• 5 years ago

Would have been nice to have an attachment hole on the device itself, rather than requiring you purchase accessories to attach to a set of keys, for example.

athorax2• 5 years ago

The holder accessories are as/more expensive as the tracker itself lol

Apple-designed AirTag accessories include the Leather Key Ring in Saddle Brown, (PRODUCT)RED, and Baltic Blue for $35 (US); the Leather Loop in Saddle Brown and (PRODUCT)RED for $39 (US); and the Polyurethane Loop in White, Deep Navy, Sunflower, and Electric Orange for $29 (US).

twobitshifter• 5 years ago

I imagine the Hermès holder is going to be much more than that.

polyvisual• 5 years ago

My side business is making handmade/handstitched leather belts, wallets etc.

These keyfob holders look like the sort of thing I'd make and sell... probably for the same £ cost as the Apple branded, mass-produced alternatives.

curiousgal• 5 years ago

Small decisions like this is what makes me despise their tactics. All of the crap about the environment and all is nothing but hot air.

ggrelet3• 5 years ago

I don't understand why you are being donwvoted. Your comment is true in every way.

noisy_boy• 5 years ago

Are you trying to kill an entire ecosystem of cheap accessories that is going to spring up simply based on the fact that they don't have a hole? :P

digikata• 5 years ago

Wait for a teardown and select a place to drill your own hole? But yes, a surprising lack of design forethought.

p1mrx2• 5 years ago

If these become popular, you'll probably find plastic adapters for $1 on AliExpress.

eneloopy2• 5 years ago

Yeah I'm sure there will be cheap aftermarket alternatives to the Apple branded accessories, but it would be nice not to have to need an additional purchase for the common use case of just tying the thing to something. It also seems a bit wasteful

ggrelet3• 5 years ago

Just imagine the sheer amount of non recyclable plastic this "design choice" by Apple to offer an un-holed product will generate. This world has a major problem.

freddyheppell2• 5 years ago

I'm pleasantly surprised these have user-replaceable standard button batteries, definitely wasn't expecting that.

kolinko• 5 years ago

May be due to their commutment to carbon neutrality and low/zero waste?

chrisbolt• 5 years ago

It’s less wasteful to use disposable and non-rechargeable batteries?

ffggvv3• 5 years ago

probably just the only practical thing. don’t imagine people wanting to charge these things

madengr• 5 years ago

It will be interesting to see/do a teardown of this. I'm wondering if the UWB is separate from the Bluetooth (which I assume is 5.0), though it's probably in a single ASIC.

This claims the UWB is at 6 and 8 GHz, but they fail to show the antennas.

https://www.techinsights.com/blog/apple-iphone-11-pro-max-te...

Now we see that Apple patents slot antennas; what a load of shit:

https://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2020/08/apple-p...

WORMS_EAT_WORMS• 5 years ago

If I was evil and stuck these to ex-girlfriend/boyfriend car or something, illegal?

Edit: Downvoters. I am not doing this obviously. Am asking as this is the clear abuse I see. Tracking people without permission.

I see this as being a weird legal thing we hear about down the road.

Qahlel2• 5 years ago

Put it in the seams of the bag...

and then you can rob the house -or worse- after figuring out their schedule... and it's only $30!

dbt002• 5 years ago

except that of course your iphone will notify you if it sees an airtag that's not yours frequently.

t0mas88• 5 years ago

You're being down voted because this is described on the page. If a tag not linked to your phone travels with you frequently while being away from its owner you'll get a notification.

rodiger2• 5 years ago

What if you don't have an iPhone?

_blz2• 5 years ago

What if the person you're tracking doesn't have an apple device?

adolph• 5 years ago

I was thinking law enforcement but same deal.

dbt002• 5 years ago

From the link: "iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time."

Nextgrid5• 5 years ago

I wonder how they allow a device to tell that the same AirTag is being seen repeatedly without allowing malicious third-parties to do the same?

I thought the system was designed in such a way that the data is meaningless to anyone but the owner of the tag, so that third-parties can't learn anything from said data.

ghostpepper• 5 years ago

It may not be foolproof (ie. if the person in question doesn't use iOS) but at least this shows Apple has considered the potential for abuse.

technofiend2• 5 years ago

That's cool and all, but how do they handle a trainload of people all going the same direction sitting near each other? I mean public transportation is still a thing.

capableweb3• 5 years ago

So what about the majority of people who do not own an iOS device? They can be tracked?

Somehow I don't see this idea working out when law makers start seeing what kind of things this product enables.

themaninthedark3• 5 years ago

But that will only work if you have an Apple device/AirTag app installed right?

NoPicklez• 5 years ago

That doesn't really explain what would happen if the person didn't have an iPhone to receive such notifications? Perhaps they're an Android user.

agumonkey• 5 years ago

I'm surprised I never ran into something like this on aliexpress.. I've seen a few spypen popping up

kalleboo• 5 years ago

There are lots of GPS tracking devices that phone home over 3G. But they're all bulky and have terrible battery life. These (like the Tile devices that came before them) just use Bluetooth LE to talk to any phone nearby that will listen (in Tiles case it was their small network of owners, for AirTag it's any modern iPhone), and that phone will do the actual GPS tracking.

slezyr• 5 years ago

These things are called beacons

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=S...

freeflight• 5 years ago

I also originally wondered about that, but they use Bluetooth for tracking.

Doesn't mention what version, but even with Bluetooth 5.0 the maximum range would be around 400 m/1.000 ft under ideal circumstances.

So the tracking would only work if you actively pursued the target to stay in range.

Probably much more practical to go for an actual GPS-tracker, magnetic versions of those can be bought on Amazon for like 50 bucks.

matthew-wegner• 5 years ago

Any iOS device will relay the AirTag’s beacons to iCloud—-not just your devices.

If you lose a tracked device, you can see its location if a random person’s Internet-enabled iDevice hears any of its chirps. The stranger’s device doing the relaying is unable to decrypt the contents; it just forwards the data to Apple.

jonplackett2• 5 years ago

The whole point of everyone's objections is that it also can be spotted by the wider network of all the other iPhones in the world, including whoever steals it (or is being stalked using it).

endisneigh• 5 years ago

Downvoted because this is literally addressed in the article:

AirTag is also designed with a set of proactive features that discourage unwanted tracking, an industry first. Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rotate frequently to prevent unwanted location tracking. iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time. And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it. If a user detects an unknown AirTag, they can tap it with their iPhone or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to disable the unknown AirTag.

Hadriel• 5 years ago

just wrap the airtag in something that reduces sound and now u can track android users. no one is gonna head something on the bottom of their car.

mlindner2• 5 years ago

And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.

So even non-Apple users will get alerted if they're being tracked with it.

Rebelgecko2• 5 years ago

Does this mean that if your phone dies or you turn it off during a movie your keys will randomly beep at you?

asdff5• 5 years ago

Non apple users who aren't hard of hearing, that is.

jtsiskin2• 5 years ago

Couldn’t someone just break the beeper on their tracker?

sib2• 5 years ago

They've thought about this use case and actually tried to do something about it:

"iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time."

FridayoLeary• 5 years ago

i suspect this is one of the reasons airtags are so delayed. see macrumors.com

JKCalhoun4• 5 years ago

No reason people couldn't have been doing this with iPhones for the past decade (albeit that's a pretty pricey tag).

patwolf• 5 years ago

I like the idea. The price is decent. However, I feel like I've hit a limit for the number of shiny electronic things I want in my life.

dblooman• 5 years ago

It looks cool, but is a big problem that people have that is solved by a first party product

mertd• 5 years ago

I wonder if I can put this on my dog as an activity tracker.

donclark3• 5 years ago

I would buy this if it showed activity, the path where it went, was rechargeable and/or solar powered, and if it worked for Android as well.

DangerousPie3• 5 years ago

So basically you'd buy this if it were an entirely different product?

Qahlel2• 5 years ago

glorified dog tags...

I don't see myself spending $30 to find my keys in my key jar that costed $3...

habibur2• 5 years ago

AirTag is designed for over a year’s worth of battery life with everyday use. The CR2032 battery is user-replaceable and widely available. Replacement batteries are sold separately.

That's the piece of information I wanted to know first. Devices like this can be built, but those can't run on batteries for a reasonable time frame.

Apple made it practical.

suprfsat• 5 years ago

Tile's been doing one-year battery life with a CR2032 for quite some time now.

eigen• 5 years ago

only the $35 Tile Pro has user-replaceable 2032 battery.

cptskippy• 5 years ago

Only in the Tile Mate and Pro since 2018 models. Their other tiles do not have user replaceable batteries.

dqpb• 5 years ago

I had a tile, battery died, won’t buy again.

tyingq• 5 years ago

Didn't expect user replaceable commodity batteries from Apple. That's nice.

gerry_shaw• 5 years ago

It is ridiculous that something as basic as having a user replaceable battery is considered an unexpected nice feature.

aylmao• 5 years ago

Throwback to that AA battery charger Apple released in 2010 [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Battery_Charger

ehsankia7• 5 years ago

As pointed out above, this is already the status quo (replacable battery, 1 year life, etc). Tile has had it for years.

I'm curious if it would've been technically feasible to have wireless charging on these instead of replaceable battery. Or would that greatly increase the price?

Nextgrid5• 5 years ago

To be fair, replaceable batteries in laptops and phones also used to be the status quo and Apple successfully changed that. Just because it’s the status quo wouldn’t prevent Apple from “thinking different”.

banana_giraffe• 5 years ago

Tile has user replaceable batteries on some of their products. Granted, it seems to be on their best sellers, but I somehow ended up with the thin ones, and I found out those don't have replaceable batteries after they died.

pfranz2• 5 years ago

Tile didn't start with replaceable batteries--they still don't use them in all their products. I don't know how AirTags will be in practice, but user-replaceable batteries haven't been great. I don't know if it's a technical restriction or not, but "low-battery" seems to be a time based warning and not based on battery charge. So I either get an alert when 1 year has passed on all of my devices at the same time, or they just suddenly die without warning. I could see why Apple might avoid this user experience. Hopefully, their implementation is better.

runawaybottle• 5 years ago

If you are forgetting where your object is, you are probably forgetting to charge it too.

dijit• 5 years ago

Tile has had it for years.

I had a tile and it most assuredly did not have a replacable battery, I had to mill the thing open: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrhM5ujSU6w

dghlsakjg2• 5 years ago

A CR2032 (disposable) has 2x-4x (200 mah under ideal conditions, compared to 40 mah) the capacity of the same sized LR2032 (rechargeable), and is more stable over a long period of time. In addition there is the necessity of additional charging circuitry, and I'm not sure how small they can physically make the charging antenna.

Lithium rechargeable would mean higher price, larger size for equivalent specs, with an added risk of fire!

cool-RR• 5 years ago

Audio jacks were also the status quo...

friendzis• 5 years ago

Or would that greatly increase the price?

Not only price, but size/weight too. It seems that currently the thing is 99% battery/case/PCB and is designed around the battery. While technically wireless charging is off-the-shelf, incorporating that may have been seen as "too expensive" and/or "too large".

butterisgood2• 5 years ago

I've never been able to replace the battery in a Tile. Is there some model I don't know about?

I've been using them for at least the last 2 years.

vagrantJin• 5 years ago

Apple made it practical.

Ofcourse. User replaceable battery sold seperately made practical by Apple Inc.

bsharitt• 5 years ago

I'm super surprised and pleased by this. I would have expected these to have recharge lithium ion batteries that weren't replaceable.

munk-a• 5 years ago

I'm actually rather disappointed that it isn't using a passive RFID chip and multiple base stations to triangulate item location - that would probably bring the price for the actual tags down to something stupidly cheap.

Toutouxc• 5 years ago

Is this actually doable? I always thought RFID is unusable at those distances.

kemonocode• 5 years ago

They probably caught enough flak with how incredibly unserviceable AirPods were and decided not to repeat the same mistake, especially here where it wouldn't give any benefit at all. Kind of a no-brainer, but you never know with Apple...

adamlett4• 5 years ago

Lol, what flak? AirPods are to a close approximation loved by all reviewers and by all evidence they are a smash hit among consumers.

stu2b50• 5 years ago

I don't think it's reasonable to expect user replaceable batteries in airpods themselves - case, perhaps. That's one form factor where it's not only small, but every gram lighter matters.

daamsie2• 5 years ago

Having a replaceable battery kind of undermines its potential as an anti-theft device, so it's not true that there wouldn't be any be benefit at all to having a non-replaceable battery.

avipars2• 5 years ago

I'm happy that it's user-replaceable ...

$100 for 4 of them sets you back a good amount... especially if you would have otherwise had to toss them after their internal batteries died

kelnos5• 5 years ago

Given that the target market is "Apple customers", I don't think $25/year/device is much of a burden.

Regardless, though, I don't like the idea of a device that's designed to be landfilled every year; replaceable batteries are the right way to go here.

Sohcahtoa822• 5 years ago

God damn it's like I'm back in 2010 where people praise Apple for doing things other people have already done.

Apple did not invent device trackers with replaceable batteries. Tile has been doing that since 2018 on some of their devices (Basically all except the smallest ones), and I imagine someone else did it before then.

obenn• 5 years ago

Trackers have existed for a while, but the privacy preserving ad-hoc device network approach is definitely an innovation.

imwillofficial• 5 years ago

“Where people praise App for things other people have already done.”

Did anyone say Apple was the first to do this? No, no they did not.

So are you saying that nobody is allowed to be praised if it’s been done before? Because that’s what it looks like to me, please correct me if I’m mistaken. Thanks.

m3kw9• 5 years ago

Is like wireless head phones, Apple didn’t invent them, but they get praised because of of great they didn’t it.

s3r3nity• 5 years ago

...people praise Apple for doing things other people have already done.

As Drake once said: "it ain't about who did it first/ It's about who did it right."

daniel_iversen• 5 years ago

The brilliant thing with apple is the privacy feature and the fact there are hundreds of millions of devices/people able to help find your lost item - that’s where a lot of the other trackers fell down.

dheera2• 5 years ago

Why can't they just have it recharge with a tiny solar cell or kinetic charging?

Any object moved around by normal use would generate more than enough energy to charge a CR2032's worth in an entire year.

That would make it truly practical by never needing a battery change.

Apple didn't make anything significantly better than the Tile IMO, which also needs batteries to be replaced every year.

rkangel3• 5 years ago

The Apple one wins in one simple way - they already have a billion iPhones to find lost tags. The Tile network is nowhere near as big.

calsy15• 5 years ago

In Australia roughly 20 kids per week present to emergency having swallowed or inserted a button battery and in several cases many have tragically died.

It is an agonising death over a period of days/weeks for the child and horrible for the parents to witness. Many times both the parents and medical professionals don't realise what is actually happening to the child until it is too late. There is growing support for much tighter regulations of these batteries and limiting there use overall.

Apple is certainly not the only company who are using them, not by a long shot. But they are not some holy grail of replaceable batteries and it surprising Apple would decide to use them now.

If you are interested ABC in Australia did a rather big report into the increasing incidents of button battery related deaths and injuries, telling the story of families who's lives were turned upside down by them. It is incredibly difficult reading.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-15/button-batteries-land...

hackama2• 5 years ago

CR2032 is 2cm wide so you're probably referring to smaller batteries as these cannot be swallowed by a child.

oasisbob2• 5 years ago

Button batteries and neodymium magnets both are pretty horrifying when taken internally.

I would be curious to see how Apple protects the battery compartment of the AirTag, I'm sure they thought about this.

eg, my car key fob needs to be forcefully pulled apart into three pieces before it even hints there's a battery inside.

maaaaattttt• 5 years ago

I wonder if (and I wish) battery producers could use the same "coating" as the Nintendo Switch cartridges. They taste disgusting and greatly reduce the risk of having a child swallowing them.

fiznool• 5 years ago

Just wanted to say thank you for posting this. I have three small children and had no idea of the dangers these batteries pose. We seem to be changing button batteries every couple of weeks or so, they are in a number of sound books and toys we have around the house. I will be sure to take extra care with them after reading that article. It’s every parent’s worst nightmare.

pupdogg• 5 years ago

If you’re not intimidated by NDAs, devices like this can be built for approx. $15/ea. or less (based on your volume) with a battery option. A CR2032 will yield approx. 6-7 years of life for the tag as long as it’s setup to emit once every 30-60s. I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple’s cost is in $1-2 per device with the battery.

compiler-guy• 5 years ago

Home brew are fun and handy, and very useful if you tend to lose things in known locations like your own home. I have been using my own for years.

The disadvantage is that homebrew don’t get the network effects of a bunch of users who just happen to pass by when you dropped it in the park.

So the trade off is real and depends on how and when you tend to lose things.

jbverschoor2• 5 years ago

You can buy complete bluetooth beacons including battery for under $7 in the EU.

They can easily be built for a few bucks. Good profits, and I expect many people will have 5-10 devices, because they're so cheap

GurnBlandston• 5 years ago

That's comparable to existing products. I was hoping to read that Apple made the device sealed and rechargeable via a mat or the like.

This device will be used like find my phone - a removable battery will make it trivial for thieves to disable the tracking.

_jal• 5 years ago

The use case is very much not theft tracking, and they will not work for that.

"An AirTag that has been separated from its owner for a long period of time will make an audible noise when it’s moved, as part of a privacy feature to let you know there’s a tag present."

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/04/20/moren-fine-prin...

daamsie2• 5 years ago

I think the main use case would be for misplaced items more so than stolen ones.

oivey• 5 years ago

Even easier than removing the tag: thieves could just remove the tag from the object.

natch3• 5 years ago

This is what turned me against Tile as a consumer. For the longest time they refused to provide any way for the end user to replace a battery, choosing instead to charge for something like a “recycling fee” which essentially matched the new normally discounted purchase price.

Yes the batteries are replaceable now, for some models, but I even declined to interview there a couple times based on the obtuseness of this product decision. And partnering with HP... not my idea of cool.

reportgunner• 5 years ago

So if the battery is replaceable I can simply remove the battery to disable the AirTag once I steal the item it is "tracking" ?

Cthulhu_2• 5 years ago

Yes, but it's not a security / theft protection device so idk what the chortling is about.

mvanaltvorst2• 5 years ago

You could also remove the whole AirTag?

symlinkk• 5 years ago

This is a great idea, I’ll be buying one on the first day. Really happy to see privacy and encryption as key selling points too.

jypepin2• 5 years ago

This is directly competing with Tile[0] which you can buy 2 for 39.99.

I guess the integration with Find My app would be pretty convenient but probably not worth the price difference?

[0] https://www.thetileapp.com/en-us/store/tiles/sticker

freddyheppell2• 5 years ago

IMO the big advantage of AirTags will be that you can locate them if they're near anyone with an iPhone, but Tile is limited just to their own users. Anecdotally I don't know anyone who uses Tile but I know plenty of people with iPhones.

Krasnol• 5 years ago

I know a lot of people who with Android phones which makes AirTags the limited item.

sorahn• 5 years ago

My motorcycle keys had a tile on them, and my dad was driving it around for an extended trip. I got 1 (singular) tile ping, his entire 6 week trip.

The fact that any iPhone (> 11) will ping home with the location of one of these is the croudsourced killer feature in the making for 2 years before release.

I'm in for a 4 pack.

athorax2• 5 years ago

The tile ones only have 150-400ft range, which is fine for locating things in your home, but not so great if you lose something out in public

nostromo2• 5 years ago

And honestly not even that good in your home. I love their product design, but the functionality never lived up to the promise.

jypepin2• 5 years ago

Ah interesting, I've never used Tile so I didn't know it had such a limited range.

fma7• 5 years ago

Uhm...that's how bluetooth works? It's the same technology as AirTag.

Tile has an ecosystem where other tile users can back to you a tile you reported as lost.

Samsung has their where their SmartTag, anyone with a Samsung phone can report your SmartTag location.

r-zip• 5 years ago

In addition to what the other commenter said, Tile products are very flaky. The price difference doesn't matter to me, since Tile's products just don't work.

eli3• 5 years ago

Tile has been complaining for some time that their products are flaky because new iOS privacy measures prevent them from accessing location data while running in the background, even if the user sets the app permission to "always allow."

https://9to5mac.com/2020/04/02/apple-breaking-promises/

ffggvv3• 5 years ago

yeah but they can’t use apples internal apis to track things. so apple gets to cheat unfairly on ios

phlyingpenguin• 5 years ago

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/04/apples-find-my-networ...

wyxuan• 5 years ago

The U1 might be a big differentiator - a lot more fine tuned way of determining the presence (spatially) of where the airtag is

jpalomaki• 5 years ago

Difference is also that majority of iOS devices people are carrying will be part of the tracking network.

Not sure how widely Tile is used. One issue on iOS with them is that you get these regular prompts ”Tile has been using your location - do you want to disable it”.

prionassembly• 5 years ago

I've been thinking about a solution that would let me find a 4-10 year old child that gets lost in a big city crowd. Like a bracelet or something. Is the AirTag truly first or best in class?

shuckles7• 5 years ago

Apple Watch for kids launched last fall with cellular and GPS support. You probably want something like it for kids in the older end of that range.

asdff5• 5 years ago

I wouldn't put a magnet for theft on my child's wrist in effort to keep them from getting lost.

yomansat2• 5 years ago

Stick an old phone into their pocket/bagpack, sim ideal but not required.

Connect that phone to your phone hotspot, so you can turn on your hotspot and, if the phone connects, it's nearby plus you can use Find My to track it from there, play sound... etc.

Bonus if you have access to e.g. XFinity or whichever is the most prevalent free wifi around, so your phone can come online occasionally.

billyhoffman5• 5 years ago

I appreciate this as a hack but it:

1) does not sound reliable or easy

2) fails open (if something doesn’t happen, that means something bad happened)

duskwuff7• 5 years ago

Not suitable for purpose. AirTags are for objects which will stay in one place when lost. They aren't appropriate for tracking "objects" which will move on their own, like pets or people, nor are they likely to work on the time scale that you'd need to find a lost child.

quenix2• 5 years ago

I'm not sure why you say that. There is no evidence supporting this in Apple's documentation or any protocol reverse-engineering literature I've read on this. Further, Apple's own marketing shows an AirTag being tracked around San Francisco.

bouke• 5 years ago

Would like to know this as well.

The deciding factor would be the responsiveness of a lookup. How quick can one locate the tag when it is out of reach of your iPhone and needs to be located through the "public network"?

Wonnk13• 5 years ago

cool concept, but can't help but think about how easy they are to cut loose by a thief.

koolba• 5 years ago

In a week you’ll see wrist bands or underwear with a slot to insert these and paranoid parents will buy them by the thousands.

Ditto for jealous spouses (secret tracer in the trunk anyone?).

p49k7• 5 years ago

No they won’t - read the article. Numerous protections against it being used as a “secret tracer”

smiley14372• 5 years ago

It's such a powerful tracking device that it has to be nerfed to be sold.

Because too many people's first thought is to stalk\track people secretly.

Technology isn't the problem, people are!

mc32• 5 years ago

WoZ[1] realized.

Wasn’t wheels of Zeus a similar idea way back when, just never executed?

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheels_of_Zeus

_23sd2• 5 years ago

I had a Tile set that I put on my keys, backpack, wallet and luggage. In the end it was too annoying with bluetooth usage draining my phone's battery and not working reliably enough when I needed it, now all the Tile stuff is sitting in a drawer. Maybe Apple can do better with their attention to UX but the main thing I learned is that these things are a whole lot less useful than they might sound. Apple probably needs to make them a bit less expensive to be successful.

mackrevinack• 5 years ago

even if they work properly, i can't get past the idea of having to replace a battery every year. and you probably wouldn't just have one of these either.

its the same reason i could never get into any of that iot stuff since they mostly rely on batteries. its just plain absurd when you work out how many you would go through in your lifetime and is its crazy to think that everyone else would be doing the same thing.

tinus_hn• 5 years ago

Modern Bluetooth does not drain batteries. How do you think they can run a tag on a button cell for a year?

duskwuff7• 5 years ago

Bluetooth is pretty power-thrifty, yes. But the Tile app was kind of power-hungry, since it had to wake up the phone's CPU periodically to keep track of which devices were in range.

_23sd2• 5 years ago

Was referring to my phone's battery life, not the battery on the Tiles themselves. Could have been location services usage as well as Bluetooth, and to be fair to Tile they have rolled out a lot of updates to the Android app since I stopped using it, many of them promising reduced background battery usage.

p49k7• 5 years ago

I am so happy to finally rid myself of all Tile devices after this announcement. Tile has been one of the worst companies I’ve ever dealt with when it comes to dark patterns. Their app is one of the few I’d describe as having UI that’s actively hostile toward the customer.

larrybud• 5 years ago

In what way? I’m a tile user and can’t say that I’ve found their app to be hostile.

dharmab• 5 years ago

Mostly I find the app to be really pushy on sales.

buzzert• 5 years ago

I haven’t heard about this. Can you explain more?

labcomputer• 5 years ago

The app:

* Constant nudging to buy more with all the usual high-pressure sales patterns (creating urgency, doubt, etc)

* Implies tiles with non-replaceable batteries will stop working after a fixed time (they won't).

Other things:

* The tile network is not as complete as I'd want it to be. I once lost my keys at work, and someone turned them in to security. It took a week before I was able to figure out what happened--I guess neither the finder nor anyone working near the security office had the tile app.

* Fairly high subscription fees for the tiles with replaceable batteries.

* Tiles are fairly thick. Even the new Tile Slim is pretty thick to put in a wallet.

anoncake• 5 years ago

a removable cover makes it easy for users to replace the battery.

Oh no, someone has hacked Apple's website and is playing a prank on them.

bnj• 5 years ago

This is really funny

120bits• 5 years ago

I have been using Tile for more than 2 years and I think its time to switch and try out AirTag. I had some issues with Tile but has worked OK so far. Looking at the pictures it does look about the same size, maybe a bit smaller. I do like lot of app features. And as a Iphone user it will be good integration. Also, user replaceable battery is huge plus. Looking forward to checking it out.

crazygringo7• 5 years ago

I thought one of the big use cases for this was to track stolen items, like a backpack or maybe even a bicycle.

But the "anti-stalking" feature will notify someone if an AirTag they don't own appears to be traveling with them.

Does this render it useless for anti-theft, then? Since it will just notify a thief that the bike they just stole is being tracked, and they can look for the AirTag and throw it in the nearest trash can?

Not criticizing Apple here -- anti-stalking is super-important -- but just looking for clarification if this will help you find lost items, but not stolen ones.

shuckles7• 5 years ago

Vanmoof seems to have adopted the Find My spec and integrated it into their bike hardware itself. AirTag is for lost items. Hardware manufacturers can build Find My support into their product to defend against stolen items. I’d guess that’s the strategy.

lylecheatham• 5 years ago

I still think Tile lost out on a gigantic market by not making it easier for hardware manufacturers to integrate into their ecosystem.

They should have been practically begging oems to embed it.

ehsankia7• 5 years ago

Does anti-stalking only work for Apple users? I assume it won't notify someone who doesn't have an Apple phone, making it kinda useless for half the population.

crazygringo7• 5 years ago

The article isn't entirely clear, but suggests that it will use the network of iOS devices around it and that the AirTag will start beeping as well.

Seems like it should be able to detect that it's always traveling together with a single Android phone's WiFi signal, for example.

gruez9• 5 years ago

And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.

fencepost• 5 years ago

Several factors play into it - how much is it used for 'lost' vs 'stolen(?)' as well as 'if stolen, by someone savvy enough to be checking for tags?' and 'if stolen how long before anti-stalking alerts? Does it alert during daily commutes on the same train? Only after 2+ hours? 3+?'

gruez9• 5 years ago

Does this render it useless for anti-theft, then?

It's hard to make tracking devices hidden. They need to phone home, so that means they emit a signal. Someone can sniff that out using a RF detector. that's why tracking devices tend to be integrated into the product itself (eg. into the ECU for cars, or part of the CPU/motherboard for computers).

inasio3• 5 years ago

It's much easier to have a phone that will easily tell you if there is AirTag around you than having an RF detector.

toxik• 5 years ago

A bike thief isn’t going to go rf sniffing

basisword• 5 years ago

I thought it was intended for lost items rather than stolen items. I've had my phone stolen multiple times and thieves know exactly what to do to prevent 'find my' activating. I'm sure it wouldn't take them long to find/disable AirTags either.

gruez9• 5 years ago

I've had my phone stolen multiple times and thieves know exactly what to do to prevent 'find my' activating. I'm sure it wouldn't take them long to find/disable AirTags either.

...putting it in a faraday bag? Since tags are cheap, they can even smash it.

crazygringo7• 5 years ago

Yes but you know a phone can be tracked.

If it's someone's backpack or leather jacket, it won't be obvious in any way if there's an AirTag slid deep into some pocket.

Sure a professional thief might check, but plenty of things are stolen casually by people who simply see something lying around.

randyrand8• 5 years ago

It’s for both.

unicornfinder2• 5 years ago

On the upside as long as you have Find My iPhone activated when you did have the phone it doesn't have a huge amount of value to the thief, particularly on newer models where individual components can't even be swapped without issues.

tchanglington• 5 years ago

It’s going to be real funny if non Apple users are basically fair game for AirTags tracking and you have to get an iPhone to protect yourself from AirStalking

captn3m0• 5 years ago

Apparently they can be disabled with any NFC enabled device: https://apple.com/newsroom/2021/04/apple-introduces-airtag/

[...] And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it. If a user detects an unknown AirTag, they can tap it with their iPhone or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to disable the unknown AirTag.

It is better supported on iPhones, but that's acceptable:

iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time.

I'd like this detection to come in stock Android, similar to how the Contact Tracing thing was shared b/w Apple/Google.

thatguy09003• 5 years ago

You can already purchase a huge range of items that do exactly what an airtag does. Everyone is already fair game for this type of stalking, it is silly to try and paint apple in a bad light here.

908B64B1972• 5 years ago

Does this render it useless for anti-theft, then?

The other question is: when presented with evidence of stolen property, will the local PD enforce the law and assist with the retrieval of said property?

mikestew• 5 years ago

That's already been answered. Stories abound about "Find My Doohickie said it was at this address. I even knocked on the door, and the person that answered said, 'yup, have your phone, whatta ya gonna do about it?'. Cops said file it with insurance." Cops don't care about a $1000 phone, they're not going to care about your bicycle, either (which has also been proven on multiple occasions).

amelius2• 5 years ago

But the "anti-stalking" feature will notify someone if an AirTag they don't own appears to be traveling with them.

Another case of your device working against your interests.

I don't care if you have something to hide or not. This just sucks at a fundamental level.

duskwuff7• 5 years ago

If the "interest" that you're worried about AirTags "working against" is being able to stalk people by attaching trackers to them or their belongings -- sincerely, fuck you. It is entirely appropriate for Apple to build functionality into their products to mitigate this sort of abuse.

jfengel3• 5 years ago

I'm not sure it's really Apple's fault. You could do the same thing with a Tile or other beacon. That's the entire purpose of the device.

Apple's trying to prevent misuse of their device. They want you to use it to find your keys, not your ex. If you consider that an invalid limitation of your device (by notifying your ex that they seem to be carrying an unknown tracker)... well, let's just say I disagree.

Lunatic666• 5 years ago

Maybe this changes when you turn on stolen mode for the tagged item.

jedberg• 5 years ago

So if you want to stalk someone you put your airtag into stolen mode first? Kinda defeats the purpose of the anti-stalking feature.

zxcvgm• 5 years ago

I too, found the anti-stalking features might hinder the use of AirTags for locating intentionally stolen items: (1) it has a removable battery, and also (2) "someone can tap [the tag] with their iPhone or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to disable the unknown AirTag".

The anti-stalking feature also seems to contradict its privacy features:

Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rotate frequently to prevent unwanted location tracking.

But also, in the next sentence:

iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time.

If an AirTag is supposed to be "anonymous", then how can a user be informed that this tag has been seen with them over an extended period? This would mean that there is a way to identify a particular AirTag in the first place.

randyrand8• 5 years ago

tags rotate identifiers, but only every hour or so.

crazygringo7• 5 years ago

AirTags are anonymous to other end users.

Obviously Apple is internally maintaining an association between the AirTag's permanent identifier, and its current temporary signal identifier.

This isn't E2EE or anything.

novok4• 5 years ago

Its private from 3rd parties, but not private from apple and whoever subpoenas them.

Apply this principle to everything apple does and says about privacy and you see it everywhere in their products.

Even more cynically, you can say it's private from their competitors.

billyhoffman5• 5 years ago

A local device like an iPhone has to know what AirTags are yours, since they have to guide to back to the beacon. If your iPhone notices beacons that appear at multiple locations, that aren't yours, it can detect that.

dividuum• 5 years ago

Here’s a detailed protocol reverse engineering paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.02282.pdf

My guess would be that you, as the tag owner, locally store the master beacon key and can use it to derive key required to decrypt received beacon payloads for your own tags. You can then filter out your own and approximate how many others (which you cannot link over time) you permanently see. If it is more than one most of the time, you’re probably tagged without your consent.

richardowright• 5 years ago

When the ID changes on the tag, a nearby device can link the two id's together since they're in the same 'position' (i.e. id x was at y position and now id z is there, so id x = id y). However, someone who is not there wouldn't be able to link those ID's together. This gets you the privacy feature and the anti-stalking feature. (The anti-stalking feature likely wouldn't need a perfect series of matches; if you have a good chain of them, you'd have good confidence.)

OkGoDoIt• 5 years ago

I wonder how this works in practice? My main use for an AirTag would be to put on my cat’s collar. But if it starts beeping randomly that’s going to be a problem.

FateOfNations• 5 years ago

Apple's response would be that AirTag isn't designed for that use case, and that you should purchase a "Find My network enabled" collar for your cat from a third party (it's only a matter of time...)

nerfhammer• 5 years ago

desolder the speaker or piezo.

neuronic• 5 years ago

Please, if possible, do not put collars on cats :(

If they're outside they can get gravely injured as they pass through the smallest holes and cracks. There are very NSFL images of resulting injuries. The collars often lead to suffocation or very bloody scenes - no matter how well they seem to fit.

https://www.pdsa.org.uk/taking-care-of-your-pet/looking-afte...

CraneWorm• 5 years ago

please, just keep your cat at home

manmal3• 5 years ago

It would only start beeping if the cat stays away from your iPhone's BLE range for 3 days. I've also thought of doing this, but my cats absolutely hate collars.

gnicholas6• 5 years ago

This is a good question. I wonder what the period of time is required before it notifies you about potential stalking. If it is more time than would typically take for someone to realize that the item is stolen, then perhaps it’s not such a big deal. But if it’s only 30 minutes or so, a thief could be notified that they’ve stolen a bicycle that’s being tracked before you come out of the grocery store, movie theater, etc.

A related question: can you geofence an airtag so that you are notified if an item leaves an area without you? This could be especially helpful for things like bikes that you would park for long periods of time and would want to know if they’re being moved by someone other than you.

fshbbdssbbgdd• 5 years ago

30 minutes seems totally infeasible. People hang out for 30 minutes all the time.

joshe• 5 years ago

It would make sense to do the anti stalking notification after say 4 days. This would make stalking labor intensive since the stalker has to swap tags frequently. So if you leave one in someone's car or drop it in a bag, you'd have to steal it back and replace it. Also if the stalker is unable to track it down, the victim gets notified automatically which makes stalking with these much more dangerous for the stalker.

For a stolen item you'd have that much time to track it down.

They could even track if different non-owned tags track the same person to stop stalkers diligent enough to swap these frequently.

It's an impressively good balancing of usefulness and avoiding bad spillover effects.

JohnBooty4• 5 years ago

    It would make sense to do the anti stalking 
    notification after say 4 days

"Your privacy and safety are important to Apple. We won't let anybody use these devices to stalk you for more than 96 hours."

You haven't thought this through! Seriously, the use cases for 96 hours of tracking are frightening.

1. Meet victim in club/bus/supermarket/wherever

2. Drop AirTag in their bag/pocket/whatever.

3. Now you know where they live and/or work assuming they go to one of those places in the next 96 hours.

Twisell• 5 years ago

Confirmed by John Gruber

I talked to folks from Apple today about some of this. The timeout period for when an AirTag will play a sound if separated from its owner is currently three days — but that’s not baked into the AirTags themselves. It’s a server-side setting in the Find My network, so Apple can adjust it if real-world use suggests that three days is too long or too short.
The “NFC-capable device” thing means Android phones.

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/04/20/moren-fine-prin...

JKCalhoun4• 5 years ago

Not all thieves are smart.

In fact I would hazard to say most are not.

stunt2• 5 years ago

They don't all have to be smart.

A few smart thieves will share the tricks. Probably many smart peoples are even going to try building detector devices.

spoonjim4• 5 years ago

The anti-stalking feature seems to be... preventing someone from tracking your movements with an AirTag? I don’t get it.

SilverRed7• 5 years ago

The future is having most items with built in tags. So yeah, your iphone tells you the bike you stole is tracking you but its not realistic to remove the tracker from it so you have to dump the bike.

pmastela2• 5 years ago

The future is here [1]:

Available from today (April 7, 2021), the latest VanMoof S3 & X3 bikes will work with Apple’s Find My app, which means you can track your ride securely using the vast and global Find My network, made up of hundreds of millions of Apple devices. With the new Items tab in the Find My app, you can locate your bike on a map from your iPhone, iPad, or Mac.

1: https://www.vanmoof.com/blog/en/find-my-bike

rurp• 5 years ago

So if a friend lends me some keys with one of these attached and I don't have the right kind of phone on me, the keys will start beeping incessantly? That seems pretty darn annoying.

katbyte4• 5 years ago

i think only if they are marked lost?

Rapzid2• 5 years ago

Just tape over the air holes it needs to transmit the sound waves.

adamlett4• 5 years ago

So maybe ask your friend to take off the AirTag if you have to borrow their keys for more than a few days?

snowwrestler• 5 years ago

Apparently any phone with NFC capability can disable any Apple Airtag.

gofreddygo• 5 years ago

"Jealous 15 year old uses Apple AirTag to stalk friends"

Vs.

"AirTag notifies bike thief about itself"

For Apple this is a no-brainer.

SergeAx• 5 years ago

That's super-important, and also will dramatically raise sales of iPhones among petty thieves.

soapdog• 5 years ago

I don't think it ever claimed to be anti-theft. It is more focused on "finding something you misplaced" than being a security tracking device.

wyclif• 5 years ago

I could see a smaller version of this, without the speaker, having some real potential for preventing musical instrument theft (especially electric guitars), or at least speeding recovery. The AirTag could conceivably be placed in the electronics control cavity of the guitar.

pkulak• 5 years ago

Seems like the anti-stalking thing could take at least a couple days? In that case, I'd still love to hide one of these things on my bike. If my bike gets stolen, I'll know about it very quickly.

sytelus• 5 years ago

It has to be this way. Imagine if I stick AirTag over someone’s backpack and then track that person all day. You cannot have it both ways.

qecez2• 5 years ago

Might be possible to destroy the beeper.

mandeepj2• 5 years ago

I’m thinking about placing it inside my car

dangom2• 5 years ago

Yes - especially curious if it works in 3D, e.g., in a parking garage.

flowerlad• 5 years ago

I was thinking the same thing. Can AirTag help me find my car if I forgot where I parked?

mandeepj2• 5 years ago

Absolutely. I believe it'll find anything where it's placed - shoes, rackets, dog etc

djrogers7• 5 years ago

Your iPhone can do that on it's own if you connect it to a bluetooth or CarPlay headset when you're in the car... It will remember where you are when you disconnect from it and tag it on the map for you.

[1]https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/find-your-parked-car-...

gwbas1c• 5 years ago

What I find hilarious is that most of the examples are about finding keys.

I don't use keys anymore. I can get into my car and house with my phone.

josho• 5 years ago

I have keys, yet I don't consider it a large enough problem to spend $30 to solve.

However, once covid ends I would consider buying one of these for my laptop bag.

puttycat• 5 years ago

This is truly revolutionary for pet owners. All existing solutions I know of have at least one fault-intolerant property that makes them useless for the lost-pet use case (battery / size / unreliable connection coverage / etc.)

If I understand correctly Apple tags solve all of these at once.

ambivalents• 5 years ago

This was my first thought. Is there any downside to putting one on my dog?

andrewmunsell• 5 years ago

No cell/GPS, so it won't track your dog if it gets lost in the forest or something. There are other (bulkier) trackers if you live in those sorts of areas, but otherwise I have a Tile on my dog's leash right now just to keep tabs on where she is when she's with a trusted caretaker like my parents. I'll probably switch it to an AirTag now because the network will have better coverage

jrochkind13• 5 years ago

And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.

I think there is no way to disable that feature, and that's by design.

Depends on how much distance is "separation" I guess, and how close you stick to your dog at all times, heh.

rhplus• 5 years ago

The removable battery might be a problem if it's easily dislodged by scratching at a the collar.

azinman2• 5 years ago

The Whistle works quite well. And if your dog is somewhere where no other iPhone's are around, it'll still work.

duskwuff7• 5 years ago

This isn't suitable for pets. The crowdsourced Bluetooth tracking will only really work for objects which will stay in one place when lost -- which pets are notorious for not doing.

For finding a lost pet, you really want something with cell reception and a GPS for real-time location. There's a number of products which specifically provide this, like the Whistle dog tag. Unfortunately, they're bulkier and require relatively frequent charging, but that's the price you pay for that functionality.

randyrand8• 5 years ago

in lost mode the tracking frequency goes to real time.

limaoscarjuliet3• 5 years ago

I used tractive. It is bulky and requires daily charging making it not so good for cats. I will likely play with Air Tag, as my cats usually travel in highly populated areas, so they should be seen by many people.

toddh2• 5 years ago

Unfortunately Whistle doesn't work in areas with poor coverage. And then there's the battery issues. A tag would at least be a good redundancy solution.

post_break2• 5 years ago

What, no. It literally shows the device on the map moving from ping to ping in san francisco on the airtags website.

rhodysurf• 5 years ago

Whistle is pretty good tho and I have been really happy with the functionality for the price.

Tiktaalik3• 5 years ago

Looked a bit big to me for a cat, but maybe it's lighter than it looks.

Tiktaalik3• 5 years ago

11g says the spec sheet, just shy of the weight of a AAA battery. Maybe too heavy for a small cat?

gregoriol• 5 years ago

Come on Apple, stop stealing ideas from others.

zepto3• 5 years ago

Do you think Tile came up with this idea?

unixhero• 5 years ago

All we want are better computers with less lockin.

dangom2• 5 years ago

Does anyone know if this works in 3D? Could it be used to find in which floor a car was parked, for example?

osynavets2• 5 years ago

Considering world environmental issues we should slow down consumerism around the world rather than accelerate it. For me it looks like a useless piece of tech in a long run (30-50 years). My opinion

tomjen3• 5 years ago

On the other hand, a lost bag containing a laptop would result in the use of a lot of materials if you wanted to replace it + contents.

burlesona3• 5 years ago

The "commercial" they used to introduce this during the event was hilarious and awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbApA2JLZ_c

rootbear• 5 years ago

The music is a strange, interesting riff on the Aquarium movement of Saint-Saëns' Carnival of the Animals, not the usual Apple modern pop stuff.

burlesona3• 5 years ago

Yeah I loved that, it really fit the notion of being lost, swimming in the space under your couch cushions haha :)

xyzwave• 5 years ago

I interpreted the end as “took psychedelic mushrooms and lost your keys? AirTag’s got your back”.

But maybe that’s just me.

rkuykendall-com• 5 years ago

Reminded me of the Hello Tomorrow commercial by Adidas / Spike Jonze / Karen O:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbBNScrYN10

nultxt• 5 years ago

speaking of Spike Jonze, Apple, and commercials, it also kinda reminded me of the (brilliant) Spike Jonze-Anderson.Paak-FKA Twigs homepod commercial

https://youtu.be/k70OczvX45k

DarrisMackelroy• 5 years ago

The ipod nano lost in the couch was also a funny little easter egg

valtism• 5 years ago

This is the official trailer, not the lower quality re-upload you posted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckqvG0Rj35I

burlesona3• 5 years ago

Thanks, I don't think this video was available when I posted :)

qwertox2• 5 years ago

So with this tiny $25 thingy my neighbor can track me in real-time after gluing it to my car? Nice.

No, honestly, this is a bit concerning, isn't it?

vokep• 5 years ago

Its apparently designed with that in mind. I'm not convinced though, give it 3 months before a few stories out there where someone's been stalked with one of these with the beeper disabled. I'd like to be wrong, guess we'll see.

rstupek• 5 years ago

You didn't read the anti-stalking measures that are built in?

qwertox2• 5 years ago

iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time.

I don't have iOS devices.

And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.

What is the definition of an extended period of time? One week? Two?

fma7• 5 years ago

Now that I think about it...My wife has an iPhone and I have Samsung Galaxy. If we put it on keys that we share...it would be very annoying to have it beep at me as I drive just because my wife's phone isn't there.

If it does not beep on my drive then it is still possible for your neighbor to track you as when you come home it would trigger the "owner is near".

Sticking with Tile, which is cross platform, thank you very much.

tpmoney• 5 years ago

A search for “gps tracker” shows numerous small, inexpensive devices that can do the same thing. The cat is already out of the bag on the “crazy person wants to stalk me” devices.

bob1029• 5 years ago

Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rotate frequently to prevent unwanted location tracking.

I feel like this is going to be quickly reverse-engineered by those with SDRs sitting on their desks right now...

X-Istence• 5 years ago

Someone already has.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/03/04/researchers-rever...

inasio3• 5 years ago

A week ago my wife dropped her Iphone from a ski lift, and couldn't find it afterwards. I went to try and find it, from home she used Find my phone to get a picture of the location, and had it play sounds when I was nearby. I found it under a foot of snow, first try. This has been around for a while now but it was the first time I saw it first hand, I was blown away.

stef25• 5 years ago

Only time I used it was when my phone fell out of my pocket in a friend's car when he dropped me at home. Find my phone clearly showed where it was, traveling through the city and amazingly I could still use WhatsApp desktop to message my friend to bring it back. Tech is awesome sometimes.

movedx• 5 years ago

Tech is awesome *sometimes*

:`(

toomanybeersies3• 5 years ago

The only time I've used Find my Phone was when my house was burgled and it was stolen.

Unfortunately, despite being given the exact location, the police weren't interested in picking it up. Luckily it was only a $100 phone, so I wasn't too concerned about getting it back, because nothing good would've come from attempting to recover it myself.

JabavuAdams3• 5 years ago

What is a "ski lift"? I don't remember the old times before Covid.

inasio3• 5 years ago

Luckily we live in a city with ski slopes near us, this particular one is in the same health authority we live in, so even in lockdown it's been ok to come ski. It's honestly the thing that has kept us sane, in retrospect I would have payed 10x or more for the family ski pass...

intricatedetail• 5 years ago

I got mugged on my way home and month later I found that my phone was in Nigeria...

dylan6043• 5 years ago

i'm surprised that you even bothered checking after that long, but awesome that you did.

fastball• 5 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFE1232LxWY&t=129s

jrochkind13• 5 years ago

If AirTag is separated from its owner and out of Bluetooth range, the Find My network can help track it down. The Find My network is approaching a billion Apple devices and can detect Bluetooth signals from a lost AirTag and relay the location back to its owner, all in the background, anonymously and privately.

I had no idea that's how "Find My Phone" worked. I guess I hadn't thought about it.

I wonder what the privacy implications are, how do they (or do they) stop the "Find My network" from tracking units any time all the time?

setr• 5 years ago

From the sounds of it, the “network” is just picking up ambient Bluetooth noise (which is constantly pinging around to find new connections, communicate, maintain existing connections, etc); the only way to stop tracking is to shut down Bluetooth

diebeforei4856• 5 years ago

Page 139-142 has information you might be interested in

https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1902/en_US/app...

gsibble• 5 years ago

His keys are in an alley off 6th street. I wouldn't go looking for them.

xyst• 5 years ago

it's a bit late tbh. looks cool though.

exabrial• 5 years ago

I'm genuinely surprised the batteries are replaceable. Apple isn't a very green company (unless you talk to their marketing dept), so to see this is sort of amazing.

philip1209• 5 years ago

I'm contemplating an AirTag for my dog!

bigmattystyles• 5 years ago

Very cool though I hope they make it clear that it's not worth going after items, even expensive items yourself if they were stolen rather than misplaced. Even if the police won't do anything about it and you know where the items are. In the bay area, they won't for instance. Just please don't go after it yourself. It will get people killed.

randyrand8• 5 years ago

I tend to agree but stolen motorcycles and cars are a big deal in SF.

djrogers7• 5 years ago

In the bay area, they won't for instance.

Depends where in the Bay Area - it's a big place with a diverse grouping of cities. My local PD would definitely retrieve a stolen item if it were airtagged, but I imagine Oakland and San Jose would be a very different case.

john_payette• 5 years ago

This tag has an U1 chip using Ultra Wide Band (UWB) which means that iPhones 11 and above also equipped with those chips will be able to locate those tags from 80m away with a +/-30cm accuracy. U1 UWB uses short pulses at 6.24GHz and 8.2GHz and positioning is done by combining time of flight (ToF) and angle of arrival (AoA).

snailmailman3• 5 years ago

I'm really curious how accurate this ends up being. Bluetooth location is one thing, but I've never seen bluetooth that can do anything more accurate than "X meters away"

These UWB chips claim to do "X meters away in Y direction". The direction aspect could be revolutionary if it works well. AirTags is the perfect use for it as well.

andiareso• 5 years ago

"+/- 30cm" ?

ericklestrange2• 5 years ago

im also super curious of this, i wanted to do a DIY angle of arrival necklace some time ago and last time i checked you required a whole mini antenna to achieve that!

andrewl-hn• 5 years ago

Our company experiments with indoor location tracking using UWB beacons. We've got a few demo kits from different vendors to test it out.

Overall, If you have a UWB receiver devices installed ~ every 4-5 meters (15 feet) you can triangulate beacon's position to a pretty precise degree (around 10 cm / 4 inches accuracy). You can even detect the height of a beacon above the floor.

However, triangulation is the key. Often we have to install extra receivers just to deal with big columns and barriers, sources of intense electromagnetism (like big electric engines or microwaves), or some materials (glass doors turned out to be a major problem, wooden doors - not so much).

I'm not sure how accurate a positioning can be with your phone acting as a sole UWB receiver. Clearly Apple can make it work sufficiently well for an everyday use, but it won't be as precise as they show in carefully constructed demos.

mentos• 5 years ago

I wonder if you can repurpose these for motion capture? Glue one to each joint and increase the update frequency?

paultopia• 5 years ago

Does anyone have any clue about whether other devices with a U1 chip will also be able to do that? (I'm thinking about people like me, who have an apple watch 6---which does have the U1 chip---but are a few generations behind on the iphone)

rx_tx• 5 years ago

I would be surprised if the next airpods case doesn't have the UWB location feature as well.

ericklestrange2• 5 years ago

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jSDtUOQXJmo

two antennas using time of flight to achieve angle of arrival

neop1x• 5 years ago

UWB is also integrated in the newest Samsung phones https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/8/22373410/samsung-galaxy-sm...

dakial1• 5 years ago

I wonder if Apple will use this product as a Guinea Pig to test the possibility of building a device-to-device network over UWB. From what I've read (I'm not technical) this was tried sometime ago by a consortium but they gave up over the difficulties of sending communications over UWB. Maybe Apple will manage a breaktrough by pouring money and brains over it like it did with M1?

Vybrannt• 5 years ago

Customers can personalize AirTag with free engraving, including text and a selection of 31 emoji, when purchasing them. That's a nice touch.

lolive• 5 years ago

Can you AirTag your kids?

wyldfire• 5 years ago

Does it make more sense for a moderator to combine these Apple product announcements into a single entry?

msoad• 5 years ago

I can't find the information on its dimensions. I don't have keys anymore (smart lock and Tesla) so I only need this for my wallet. Will this make my wallet too thick?

Eric_WVGG3• 5 years ago

It’ll fit in a "Costanza wallet", but will make anything minimal pretty uncomfortable… try the AR view

Analemma_• 5 years ago

I'm surprised they didn't make multiple form factors. I was considering replacing my Tile trackers with this, but without an equivalent to their wallet tracker [0] it's a no-go.

[0] https://www.thetileapp.com/en-us/store/tiles/slim

andrewla4• 5 years ago

What I need is the inverse of this -- my wife is forever losing her phone around the house, and I need a button on the wall that you can press to activate "find my phone" mode and play a beep on it.

EDIT: Thank you for all the suggestions!

I'm aware that this is possible from another iPhone or iWatch or iPad -- this is the current workflow. Use my phone or take the ipad away from the kids to play the beep. Is a button on the wall too much to ask for?

I've actually experimented with the iCloud API to try to get this functionality to work, but it's not a supported API so I run into the uncrossable chasm of "put your password in this python file and voila!".

dangoor• 5 years ago

Apple Watch can do this, as long as your wife would wear the watch.

asdff5• 5 years ago

raspberry pi and some script to click through the find my iphone website for you and hit the alarm after hitting your button.

andrewla4• 5 years ago

I will pay you cash money for this functionality, if you can get it to use a delegatable OAuth2 token instead of requiring my iCloud password. I've looked into this, and because this particular use case is not supported in the iCloud public API, all that remain are horrifying hacks.

diebeforei4856• 5 years ago

Apple Watch has had this "make-my-phone-beep" feature from day one and it's been excellent.

sib2• 5 years ago

If you're talking about an iPhone, it works exactly this way. You can use "Find My..." to play a lost sound on the missing device.

bombcar• 5 years ago

If you setup a HomePod or Find My iPhone correctly, you can trigger it from that or your iPhone.

jfengel3• 5 years ago

A Tile in fact does that. The Tile has a button. Press and hold it, and the device that's tied to the tile will beep. You could mount it on the wall, if you wanted to.

RandallBrown2• 5 years ago

You can ask Siri to play a sound on your wife's phone if you have your own iPhone or a Mac nearby.

andrewla4• 5 years ago

Yes, that is the functionality I use now, and what I want this button to activate. Except without the other phone/mac involved in the process.

singularity20012• 5 years ago

Chipolo works both ways. Double tap and your iPhone rings.

andrewla4• 5 years ago

Awesome! Not released yet, unfortunately, but this is exactly the thing!

If they can do it, maybe that means that Apple intends to open up the API, which means I can do my Raspberry PI button to get things working.

jordsta• 5 years ago

If you so happen to have a Google Home you can also now ask the Google Assistant to find your iPhone too: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/14/google-assistant-locate...

limaoscarjuliet3• 5 years ago

My cats will get tagged first. I used a gps tracker on them, but that was not reliable.

jonplackett2• 5 years ago

$29 for the AirTag. Another $29 for the case...?

smiley14372• 5 years ago

I'm sure you'll be able to buy Airtag holders on Aliexpress for $1.

Then you just have to wait 6 weeks for shipping

coryking2• 5 years ago

Or there will be a ton of them on thingiverse to 3d print...

djrogers7• 5 years ago

Or $12 for the Belkin one, or $3 for the inevitable amazon knockoff....

mrfusion2• 5 years ago

Is it ironic the only thing I want to use this on is my Apple TV remote?

What kind of other things would you put this on?

flemhans• 5 years ago

Car, keys, backpack, purses, suitcase, jackets, bikes, pets

mrfusion2• 5 years ago

How does this work under the hood? GPS? Cellular?

RandallBrown2• 5 years ago

Bluetooth and ultra wide band.

It will use iPhones that are nearby to relay location information.

jliptzin2• 5 years ago

Someone at Apple must really hate Tile

georgehaake• 5 years ago

It needs a hole.

Lammy• 5 years ago

Can somebody please help me parse the last sentence in the "Privacy" paragraph here? I'm honestly confused by the "or location of any device that helped find it". All I want to know is if a LEA could subpoena Apple for the location of any/all of my AirTags, and I can't tell if this is talking about the tags themselves or about the device that initiates a Find action for a Tag:

"AirTag is designed from the ground up to keep location data private and secure. No location data or location history is physically stored inside AirTag. Communication with the Find My network is end-to-end encrypted so that only the owner of a device has access to its location data, and no one, including Apple, knows the identity or location of any device that helped find it. "

lights0123• 5 years ago

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.02282.pdf, see 6.1: "The BLE advertisements sent out by a lost device contain an EC public key pi. A finder device that receives such an advertisement determinesits current location and encrypts the location with pi.

djrogers7• 5 years ago

All I want to know is if a LEA could subpoena Apple for the location of any/all of my AirTags

No, they can't. Only your device can decrypt the beacon info, and Apple doesn't store location data.

heavyset_go• 5 years ago

All I want to know is if a LEA could subpoena Apple for the location of any/all of my AirTags

Like anything that's centralized in the cloud, not only can law enforcement subpoena the provider for your data, they can subpoena your data without you ever being notified of the fact.

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

Hard to subpoena something that doesn't exist.

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1902/en_US/app...

Page 139 onwards is the FindMy network security stuff. Apple actively doesn't want to know where your shit is. This is similar to the COVID tracking stuff Google and Apple are running.

benguillet• 5 years ago

I couldn't find the answer in the article: will it warn right away when they detect you left your keys or backpack behind with a tag in it? Tile has this and it's great, but you need to pay the subscription for it

varispeed• 5 years ago

provides a private and secure way to easily locate the items that matter most

I am sorry but I couldn't stop laughing. How exactly is this private and secure? Only you know and a trillion dollar company :-)

I would buy something like this if I could self host the server and it could operate on virtual LAN. But letting foreign company with questionable ethics know where is the stuff that I love?

djrogers7• 5 years ago

Have you looked into this at all? Apple doesn't know the location of any of these things - ever. It's all spelled out in their very detailed white papers, but in short the location data is e2e encrypted and only available to your phone.

klener• 5 years ago

"The Find My network is approaching a billion Apple devices and can detect Bluetooth signals from a lost AirTag and relay the location back to its owner, all in the background, anonymously and privately." Is a feature like this already in use?

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

Yep, has been active since iOS 13 I think.

isatty• 5 years ago

I’ve been waiting for this! I decided to not get the Tile etc because I did not want to give my information to a third party, but I’m already deep in the apple ecosystem.

Find my is a great app that I use even to locate my devices in my own house.

stickac• 5 years ago

It seems you can add the AirTag technology to a 3rd party product via MFi program.

Would it be possible to send a custom payload? E.g. with a status report (battery percentage, etc.)

mensetmanusman3• 5 years ago

There are about 100,000,000 pets in the US.

Apple just printed a $B business by figuring out how to monetize pets.

mensetmanusman3• 5 years ago

I wonder if Apple has access to APIs that they will not provide Tile.

If so, they might be in a legal grey area.

cHaOs667• 5 years ago

AirTag shows what Nokia tried to achieve with their Treasure Tag system back in 2014. Hopefully they work more reliable and that the Find My Network Accessory program will be implemented by more manufactures. Stuff like this can be useful for some people.

frabjoused• 5 years ago

How do these devices connect to the Internet? Do they have a built-in SIM? I'm not sure what they piggyback off of technologically that gets around having to pay some small SIM subscription.

terramex• 5 years ago

They connect to any iOS device in the area over Bluetooth and use its internet connection to communicate with AirTag's owner iCloud account.

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

It's a bluetooth beacon, devices see it, send its ID to the cloud along with the location.

(+ privacy and encryption ofc)

nikolay• 5 years ago

Apple has been in a Samsung catch up mode for years now.

justapassenger2• 5 years ago

While it seems like a good product, let’s put things into perspective of big tech.

Platform owner, that has deep insights into other products on it, and their revenue, is creating competing product, that’s utilizing api and privileges that others cannot. And utilizing platform they own to push this product to users, without having to pay for it.

wallwarp• 5 years ago

I do wish it would’ve been open-sourced and used cross-platform.

also > that’s utilizing api and privileges that others cannot

Apple is allowing third party device makers to integrate with the find my system. What’s the difference between apple

justapassenger2• 5 years ago

There’s much more than just find my. For a start, other apps can’t really run in background, and can’t get reliable access to location, that’s crucial for something like this (even if you allow app to access your location, iOS will still keep on asking users periodically to disable it).

All of those things are done for good of the platform, to limit abuse form other apps, sure. But it’s also conveniently giving apple’s products unfair advantage.

cmeacham982• 5 years ago

Apple-designed AirTag accessories include the Leather Key Ring in Saddle Brown, (PRODUCT)RED, and Baltic Blue for $35 (US); the Leather Loop in Saddle Brown and (PRODUCT)RED for $39 (US); and the Polyurethane Loop in White, Deep Navy, Sunflower, and Electric Orange for $29 (US).

Interesting to see what looks like a typo "(PRODUCT)RED" in an Apple press release.

rm445• 5 years ago

(PRODUCT)RED is a charity that Apple has supported since the iPod days: you get a red device and some money goes to charity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_Red

cmeacham982• 5 years ago

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks.

JanSolo• 5 years ago

(Product)Red is not a typo. It's a weird marketing trick that Apple uses to make red coloured things seem more special.

speg2• 5 years ago

Product Red, stylized as (PRODUCT)RED or (PRODUCT)RED, is a licensed brand by the company Red, stylized as (RED), that seeks to engage the private sector in raising awareness and funds to help eliminate HIV/AIDS in eight African countries…

wand3r• 5 years ago

https://www.apple.com/product-red/

zeitg3ist• 5 years ago

Unfortunately that’s the actual way it’s spelled, at least for branding purposes.

el_benhameen• 5 years ago

I’m curious what others are planning to use these for (or what they use Tiles, etc. for). I could see putting one on my keys, maybe a backpack. What else?

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

Car, bicycles, wallet/keys, backpack.

I'd install one in my grandma if it could be implanted :D

bosswipe2• 5 years ago

Is it cross platform? Can't find the info.

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

No, why would it be? It requires Apple devices to detect and Apple's servers to coordinate the data.

bosswipe2• 5 years ago

This will reduce the power of Tile's finding network which will make it less effective for Android users. Why would they? To not be evil. They need to be stopped.

presentation• 5 years ago

Will this support notifying me when a tag goes out of range from my phone? That’s when I lose things, but no tag seems to do that, which to me is by far the only useful feature for these things.

ineedasername• 5 years ago

I wouldn't have expected that of Apple considering other popular options don't allow battery replacement. That always bothered me for the product waste.

fma7• 5 years ago

What popular options don't allow battery replacement? Tile and Samsung SmartTags have battery replacement...

Are you referring to some other beacon tracker that's more popular that I have never heard of?

dagmx• 5 years ago

Not all Tile products offer/offered battery replacement.

zelly2• 5 years ago

So what's the point of LoJack now? This will probably bankrupt them. The most practical use for this product is hiding them in cars and tracking car thieves.

Mandatum• 5 years ago

It looks like everyone ships AirTag location data to Apple, I wonder what the privacy implications are for this..

AirTags on a stolen vehicle

AirTags on a VIP

Apple's data about AirTag logs - when was Apple device X next to AirTag Y..

I also wonder what happens if you have a device that repeatedly calls the AirTag to drain the battery..

snailmailman3• 5 years ago

Find my iPhone data is end to end encrypted. If your device sees a lost phone nearby, it doesn’t get to know who’s phone - it just sends the encrypted blob to Apple.

Apple then doesn’t even know the location. The lost-phone-owner decrypts it.

animex• 5 years ago

Anyone else concerned that Apple Tags can be used to track you if you don't have an iPhone to alert you that you've been "tagged"?

rcpt• 5 years ago

Once I started using Tile it became impossible for me to remember where I put my keys. There just wasn't any pressure to stay organized since the beeping would always save me. But whenever the battery was out or the Bluetooth wasn't connecting oh boy.

Same kind of thing happened with GPS. I used to pay more attention to maps and really learned streets but now I just expect the phone to solve everything for me. I'm lost without it and I don't like that.

tgsovlerkhgsel• 5 years ago

I wouldn't be able to hunt my own mammoth, and I know that I suck at making fire with primitive tools (I tried and failed).

I've learned to appreciate the benefits of a modern society, and I'm ok being pretty screwed if it all magically disappeared without a trace.

We adapt, and that's a good thing.

just-ok3• 5 years ago

Eh, losing your sense of direction due to the crutch of GPS isn’t adaptation; it’s regression. Not all of us are okay with being screwed if the convenient floor of modern life fell out from underneath us. :)

kfajdsl• 5 years ago

Specifically with learning street names and layouts, a big benefit goes hand in hand with using GPS imo: when I start directions to a new place, I can quickly glance at the map and pretty much know what I need to do for most of the trip. This saves me from having to constantly eye my phone or making split second lane changes because Google waits till you're right at a turn to tell you :S

SilverRed7• 5 years ago

This kind of thing would be incredible built in to expensive portable electronics. My bf recently lost his very expensive sony earbuds while on holiday and once its not in the hotel room or your bags, its basically gone. The most likely situation is it was at one of the public transport lost item collections but calling up everywhere we had been was too much work.

Airtags would have found them most likely.

dstaley• 5 years ago

Fun fact: Tile actually partners with device manufacturers to embed Tile into their products. For example, the Skullcandy Crusher Evo wireless headphones have Tile built-in.

https://www.skullcandy.com/crusher-evo-wireless-headphones

ghaff8• 5 years ago

The challenge is that you need a.) an easy way to attach in some manner which doesn't work very well on a small product and b.) you need to be able to triage what small subset of things you really want to track.

Yes, building in helps. Though it probably opens up a variety of privacy/security failure modes.

billyhoffman5• 5 years ago

I can’t wait for an AirTag-enabled AirPods case! I misplace that often.

bytesmith• 5 years ago

I use a cheap rubber case for my AirPods that has a little loop for a keyring that I use to attach a Tile to [0]. It's a little bulky compared to the naked case but it has a few of advantages.

First, it allows you to say "find my AirPods" to your phone and the Siri shortcut will launch the tile app and ring your AirPods. Second, the silicon is really grippy so it's far less likely to fall out of your pockets, and third the keychain ring means I can store it on a keyhook by the door which is my system for not loosing my keys in the first place, and usually obviates the need for the Tile:)

I do agree that having the UWB transmitter built into the case would be better provided it doesn't require the case having charge to work, which isn't always going to be true.

[0] https://imgur.com/a/xTGpTOC

psychomugs• 5 years ago

Technology extends but also amputates.

https://stream.syscoi.com/2019/05/30/marshall-mcluhan-extens...

gerash• 5 years ago

Same experience here. I installed a key hook so where my keys are is now known but I'm gonna have a hard time finding my wallet when Tile's battery run out.

Same for street navigation. Whenever I drive somewhere I usually can't afford to waste time learning the roads but on my way back I close Google maps and try to find my way back home which helps.

harperlee• 5 years ago

I still remember landline phone numbers from my primary school friends more than 20 years later. Yet I don't know their mobile phone numbers that I use now. It feels funny, but it is not an issue.

fighterpilot• 5 years ago

My question is, are we losing critical tools that would otherwise be helpful, or are we freeing up bandwidth for other things that are more useful and relevant in modern times?

I also couldn't read a map to save my life but I'm not sure if this is a loss (lacking this abstract tool) or a win (opportunity cost wise).

Waterluvian• 5 years ago

I take it these don't function at all with devices earlier than iPhone 11?

yborg2• 5 years ago

No, they use Bt normally otherwise, you just don't get the precision location information.

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

Everything from iPhone 6S upwards will work. Basically anything with iOS 14 or later.

JabavuAdams3• 5 years ago

Is anyone else here disturbed by the cost/benefit tradeoff with respect to abuse?

Here's this sort of neat thing that is a high-tech fix to a really minor problem but that opens up a whole new attack surface and makes problems for everybody. I.e. your personal need to track a few items makes the commons worse for everyone.

babesh2• 5 years ago

I don’t understand why Apple doesn’t fix the lost AirPods issue. If your AirPods communicate with your phone, shouldn’t your phone be able to have a record of the last time it was in communication with your AirPods and the phone’s location at that time?

willio58• 5 years ago

They do this. Find My shows the last known location of my AirPods, useful when I lose them. Then, if I’m close enough and can’t see them, I can play a sound on them so I can find them.

babesh2• 5 years ago

Thanks! They should do so for each one (left and right)?

billyjobob• 5 years ago

Same with Apple Pencil. No log kept of where it was last seen.

dazbradbury• 5 years ago

Anyone know of an Android compatible alternative that isn't Tile?

Every Tile device we've had has broken within 3 months. Normally literally falling to pieces. Have been through 10 of them. Would be fine if they were cheap, but they're really not...

Let's hope Apple raises standards / increases competition with this release!

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

Can't be done, since the Android ecosystem is too fragmented. This only works because Apple controls all the devices and the backend.

Samsung will release the STag soon though :)

colordrops• 5 years ago

This isn't ready for prime time until they are small enough to attach to my wife's eyeglasses.

kjrose• 5 years ago

So apple bought out Tile?

mjgs2• 5 years ago

Wouldn’t it be cool if there was a way for this system to run scripts when certain events happen? Maybe send webhooks?

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

The Shortcuts app can already hook into Find My, adding an event for "item found" is not a big thing for Apple to add.

mjgs2• 5 years ago

I think there are a lot more events that could be useful.

Imagine you are travelling with lots of bags, maybe you are on a photo shoot or you are a roadie travelling with a band.

- bag goes out of range - bag back in range - bag motionless - bag moving at more than 20 km/hour

That sort of thing.

You could build some cool apps for moving with stuff efficiently. Assign items to people on the fly, maybe a Siri type interface.

gumby2• 5 years ago

These airtags have a couple of nice features: AR finder and the ability for anyone to adopt the protocol in their bluetooth stack. But I already have a bunch of tiles so I'd have to use both apps and know which one to use.

The big benefit is there are more people with iPhones than there are people with iPhones+android who are running the tile app.

Tile also has two useful form factors: a wallet-sized flat one and a tiny button for things like TV remotes.

If Tile didn't have replaceable batteries this would be a bigger threat (if you have to replace your tag, there's an opportunity to switch vendors).

Still, I do expect them to crush tile in the long run. Then again I've been surprised Tile has made it this far at all, so they might figure it out.

billyhoffman5• 5 years ago

Great point on the TV remote. Apple missed a great opportunity here for the new Apple TV remote to include AirTag find-ability! AirPod cases are another good opportunity for this functionality to be built in

gumby2• 5 years ago

I know, what a missed opportunity. My gf has a case for her AirPod case just so she can attach a tile.

axiosgunnar2• 5 years ago

Wait, do I understand correctly that my phone is being abused as part of a global botnet for Apple?

How do I disable my iPhone being using to relay data?

oop• 5 years ago

It's a stretch to say anonymized reporting of nearby lost devices is abuse and part of a botnet, but you can turn off the U1 chip in settings. Privacy > Location Services > System Services > Networking & Wireless

axiosgunnar2• 5 years ago

Great, seems like it was already off. Thanks for your quick reply.

sneak4• 5 years ago

It's a good idea to turn off location services on all Apple devices systemwide. Having it on sends your location over the network to Apple (via visible Wi-Fi MAC address lists) all the time - it's not just passive GPS reception.

Apple then shares this data with the US federal government without the requirement for a warrant, whenever they ask via a FISA request. No probable cause of criminal activity is required: it can be used for pure fishing expeditions, or parallel construction.

I don't think it's reasonable that using the GPS functionality in my device also means the device manufacturer should perpetually receive a real-time log of everywhere my device goes that is then made available to federal investigators whenever they wish to see it.

randyrand8• 5 years ago

just disable Find My iPhone

Tiktaalik3• 5 years ago

Looks too big and heavy to put on a cat's collar, which would preclude the best use I can think of for this thing.

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

11 grams is too heavy?

Rapzid2• 5 years ago

I didn't realize enough people had so much trouble keeping track of their stuff for Apple to get into this.

nirav72• 5 years ago

I wonder how many people are going to tag their idevices with these.

myrandomcomment• 5 years ago

This is pretty much a take my money item.

dbg31415• 5 years ago

How will I know if someone sticks an AirTag on my car?

I know the tech exists other places, but making it so common place and cheap makes me nervous.

Would love it if I could press a button and all the AirTags in range of my Bluetooth would make themselves known.

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

Do you people even read the linked articles?

Here, I'll paste the relevant part for you:

"AirTag is also designed with a set of proactive features that discourage unwanted tracking, an industry first. Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rotate frequently to prevent unwanted location tracking. iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time. And even if users don’t have an iOS device, an AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it. If a user detects an unknown AirTag, they can tap it with their iPhone or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to disable the unknown AirTag."

arthurcolle4• 5 years ago

My cat disappeared for 16 hours today, had no idea where he was. He has a heart issue so I was worried he went off and died. Would I be able to use AirTags to see where he was throughout the day or not? Obviously I could see where he is right now, but could I see where he roamed off to through the course of the day?

I know that others have mentioned that no location data is stored on the device, but what if I want to use it to see lat/long data points over time, like a time series device, is this possible?

Crazy to think my cat's privacy is being proactively protected by Apple haha

dylan6043• 5 years ago

I think the GPS collars would be better for this

arthurcolle4• 5 years ago

Didn't realize this was a product segment, thanks! Do you have a recommendation by any chance? Seems to be a lot of participants in this space, but not really sure which one is the most legit.

nexuist• 5 years ago

The AirTag network requires other Apple devices to be nearby in order to register the location. The chip itself doesn't have any GPS capabilities. Ultimately it depends where your cat usually goes; if he's surrounded by people or hanging out around sidewalks chances are someone with an iPhone will walk by and automatically update his location. If he's in the forest or in rural areas without any tech nearby, AirTags won't help you until he gets back into civilization.

arthurcolle4• 5 years ago

Useful to know. I might be too ADHD/impatient when I am scrolling across Apple marketing pages, but I couldn't seem to easily find a "tech spec"/diagram that showed the mechanism in action.

It sure is getting hard to find a way to perform intelligence operations on my cat's secret business....

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

I know that others have mentioned that no location data is stored on the device, but what if I want to use it to see lat/long data points over time, like a time series device, is this possible?

No data is stored on the device, because the device doesn't know where it is :)

It's just a beacon shouting "I'M HERE" at certain intervals. If an iDevice spots the shout, it'll add a GPS location to the message and send it to Apple.

(Yes there's a bunch of encryption and changing IDs too, but that's the basic idea)

arthurcolle4• 5 years ago

Thanks, useful to know. I read a little bit more about the design of the system/apparatus and it seems like it's not really the intended use case (history of where something was vs. where something is right now that you are looking to find)

JeremyCa• 5 years ago

Great.. Can they build this into the damn AppleTV remote..

soheil2• 5 years ago

I wonder if they can be stolen off of cats walking around streets of I don't know say Palo Alto... and re-paired to a new iPhone. Can this pose a theft hazard to the cats?

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

If your cat is walking freely around the streets of Palo Alto, there already is a hazard you're accepting.

Adding a $30 device to your cat doesn't make the cat markedly more at risk.

soheil2• 5 years ago

Yes, but at the same time you have pointedly increased the marginal risk of the cat being stolen.

darepublic2• 5 years ago

I don't want these things near me

rapjr9• 5 years ago

So it this the UWB version of AirTag? The one that can locate a tag to within an inch and give precise direction and distance to the tag?

eatbitseveryday• 5 years ago

Did Apple just kill this business with their own product?

https://chipolo.net/

danielmeskin• 5 years ago

Yes, it even costs the same.

kleer001• 5 years ago

Ah, more externalization of the human mind. Double edged that.

k_sze• 5 years ago

I need this to become small enough that I can stick them into the barrels of my fountain pens. But then there's no replaceable battery that would fit yet.

l8rlump3• 5 years ago

Hacky solution that works by tunneling telemetry data over open wifi links: http://www.phreakmonkey.com/2016/08/towl-telemetry-over-oppo...

itisit2• 5 years ago

Does Find My’s ToS require your device to relay any AirTag’s data?

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

You really think Apple would release a new product and forget to update the ToS to allow it? :D

itisit2• 5 years ago

No. Asking if there’s a way to opt-out.

darthrupert• 5 years ago

I'll be putting on my airpod pro's charging case, if I ever find it :/

Schnitz• 5 years ago

RIP Tile

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

They'll still have all the Android users :)

BiteCode_dev2• 5 years ago

It uses BT right ? So how can it be useful on luggages, like in their ad ? If someone steals it or the airport lose it, BT is of not use here, isnt it ?

Someone help me undertand, it's a genuine question.

theshrike7923• 5 years ago

Did you read the linked page?

"If AirTag is separated from its owner and out of Bluetooth range, the Find My network can help track it down. The Find My network is approaching a billion Apple devices and can detect Bluetooth signals from a lost AirTag and relay the location back to its owner, all in the background, anonymously and privately."

And before you fly off the handle about privacy: yes it is secure, yes it is encrypted, no Apple doesn't know where your shit is either.

BiteCode_dev2• 5 years ago

Thanks for the explanation, although I could have done without the condescending tone.

mbragagia• 5 years ago

This really looks like an april fools' joke.

enahs-sf• 5 years ago

Am I the only person thinking of the malicious use cases of tagging things that don’t belong to you?

gorbypark• 5 years ago

There are built in protections for this exact situation. It seems that if an airtag is away from its owner and appears to be “following” someone else, then that person will be alerted about the tag that appears to be following them. This requires the followed person to have an iOS device, but it will beep to alert someone audibly as well.

ezconnect• 5 years ago

Another e-waste to pollute the environment marketed as eco friendly.

RamblingCTO• 5 years ago

I don't know what to say, the comment section is kind of disgusting. If you like it buy it, if you hate apple then don't. These kinds of discussions got very boring ages ago.

njkumarr• 5 years ago

hackernews is usually pretty negative and runs with their narrative is

pulse7• 5 years ago

"The Find My network is approaching a billion Apple devices..." If I buy an iPhone, will Apple use my iPhone to provide their "Find My" service to other customers?

quenix2• 5 years ago

Yup. But the beacon packets have been designed to be extremely efficient and the finder protocol your device would occasionally use is super lightweight.

kohlerm• 5 years ago

Is Tile is screwed now? Or do they have to focus on Android now, hoping google does not invent something similar? Ok just read Samsung has something similar.

skohan• 5 years ago

It's not likely to happen, but I wish Apple would provide an API for UWB and NFC. I've got the watch, and it would be really fun to tinker with this along with my home automation setup.

stunt2• 5 years ago

Testing it has probably been challenging for them during the lockdowns and WFH situation.

snickmy• 5 years ago

Looking forward to have a doc collar based on this

GrumpyNl• 5 years ago

Lets get crazy over this, replaceable batteries.

singingwolfboy• 5 years ago

It's worth noting that the new Siri Remote for Apple TV does not have a U1 chip (the technology that powers AirTag), and so will not be findable in the Find My app. If you want to be able to find your Siri Remote easily, you'll need to buy an AirTag separately and strap it to the remote.

Source: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/20/siri-remote-no-u1-chip/

cjdell• 5 years ago

I have a few "Tile" tags which seem OK but I was hoping that I could use my own hardware to scan for them instead of relying on their Android app which just gives you a rough distance. I wanted to have a few cheapo solar powered ESP32's dotted around actively probing and triangulating their position. Couldn't find any info on the Tile protocol. I think smart tags like this could be so much more useful if they were opened up.

osynavets2• 5 years ago

Can it run Doom?

tonoto• 5 years ago

At least you have to give Apple credit for using a simple standard CR2032 battery this time and not "inventing" some non-standard format such as 19 mm. Or even creating tad larger cell with an integrated id-chip that validates that the battery is manufactured by Apple.

ubermonkey• 5 years ago

Seems cool, but holy hell I still never leave the house.

splithalf• 5 years ago

Unlikely to be used for ill purposes.

butterisgood2• 5 years ago

User replaceable battery means I've just officially bought into this over Tile.

mutt_dog• 5 years ago

The biggest thing here is the privacy. All competitors that I know of sell your location data or can according to their TOS

andreagrandi2• 5 years ago

While I appreciate the anti stalking feature I'm not sure it would be compatible with a common use case: suppose I attach one to my backpack because I want to be able to track it in case I loose it. Fine. But... at this point I either always bring the backpack with me whenever I leaver my home or it will start buzzing as soon as I'm far away.

Evan__• 5 years ago

I'm pretty sure they allow you to define safe areas where you can leave things without the lost indicator firing.

andreagrandi2• 5 years ago

This could be a good workaround

fma7• 5 years ago

On the flip side, if you have AirTags on your keys, you always need to bring your phone even if you go for a quick errand.

Or you go on vacation, give some keys to a friend/neighbor to dog sit, house sit...and it starts beeping.

Good intentions - but lots of questions for sure.

DennisMaHa• 5 years ago

Without looking deep at the technology part I was wondering if this could be used as an alternative for avalanche transceivers in backcountry skiing. Avalanche transceivers use radio signals to find each other in case of an avalanche. They are very high priced and unfortunately a lot of people then decide to not use one. Having a cheap and reliable version using a phone could save lifes. I'm very curious to see if this is feasible

Thorentis• 5 years ago

Peer to peer item discovery! Very cool. Just waiting for a 0-day that let's you find everybody else's things though.

techbio• 5 years ago

Apple missed opportunity to name this ID for IoT more plainly: IDIoTs.

Apple Introduces AirTag

Related Stories