Who killed the rave?

https://www.ft.com/content/2138e940-0c81-44b0-87a7-325f278413e1

by this_weekend • 2 years ago

336 801 2 years ago

gnabgib• 2 years ago

Related Berlin's beat goes quiet as techno clubs close their doors (3 points, 2 months ago, no comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42149813

https://archive.is/BdJlM

(Better Watergate photos)

aaron695• 2 years ago

There was also a big thread -

Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future (300 comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38151205

14 years ago - Berlins new techno beat. why international tech startups should move to berlin - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2729524 (Article is gone so not sure if it's a play on techno)

barrenko• 2 years ago

The latter didn't age well for sure.

immibis6• 2 years ago

btw: Watergate (and Renate in a year (and Rummelsburger Bucht a few years ago)) are closing because some secretive Russian oligarch has decided the way he wants to throw his oligarch money around is to buy up left-wing spaces in Berlin and shut them down. Not just rave clubs or whatever they're properly called - he was also the reason for the tiny little squat Liebig 34 getting stormed by over 2000 armed police officer, and I don't remember whether he also had the same role with another squat, Køpi Wagenplatz, which got shut down in a very similar way (the police brought an actual tank to that one). He either has the right connections, or he knows exactly how to manipulate the legal system. Watergate actually tried to buy its own building at a fair market price, but this guy outbid it.

I think the owner of Watergate, felt it was a good time to retire from that anyway, but that isn't the case for the other spaces affected.

This page hasn't been updated in over 6 years but: https://padowatch.noblogs.org/

barbafant• 2 years ago

last article archived here: https://archive.ph/20121024051203/http://www.cnbcmagazine.co... Yeah, it's not really about techno music or rave scene, though it briefly mentions the Berlin nightlife. It is about tech work jobs and startups.

hmcq63• 2 years ago

On the one hand millennials are getting older so it's totally reasonable to expect they wouldn't want to party into the early AM anymore.

On the other hand real raves don't happen in legal venues. I've partied in warehouses, upscale restaurants, artist studios, roller skating rinks, movie theaters, hotels, apartments. I threw parties on the lightship Nantucket (LV-112), although those were day parties. But none of these events would be factored into the financial times reporting.

Some of the evidence presented by the article is compelling but just don't think they can draw real conclusions about the state of nightlife with such a limited perspective.

yieldcrv8• 2 years ago

The article also mentions that earlier ending events made to accommodate aging millennials have seen an unexpected and huge interest from Gen Z

But yeah, the decline of the nightlife and hospitality sector is what this article is about, as the regulated rave experience is very mainstream and has been for a long time now

The production value is quite high now and still improving so I don't see why the illicit rave experience would be so interesting when the facilities would be so lacking in comparison. There are lots of electronic dance music events on boats, cruiseliners, retired battleships and more.

Music festivals are bigger than ever though, and they are so frequent and numerous that you can go as frequently as people were going to clubs. I have multiple friend groups where that’s all they do and it is far more intense than just being out passed 3am, although many do officially end their main programming at 1am, many don’t.

celticninja2• 2 years ago

We go for the vibe not the facilities

api4• 2 years ago

I don't see why the illicit rave experience would be so interesting when the facilities would be so lacking in comparison.

I swear if you strip away legal pot and LGBTQ rights (not saying those are bad) we have culturally returned to the 1950s. This is a very conservative period with little interest in or tolerance for actual outside-the-lines culture or experience.

esperent2• 2 years ago

The production value is quite high now and still improving so I don't see why the illicit rave experience would be so interesting when the facilities would be so lacking in comparison

A few reasons:

1. security at official music events are often complete arseholes and can totally destroy the vibe. Think of all the row rent chip on their shoulder wannabe cops, then place them in a field of drunk partying adults with complete power and almost zero oversight (+)

2. Advertising everywhere

3. Massively overpriced food and drink

(+) While I fully understand that once you've got multiple thousands of humans in a field, you do need security, at small illegal raves - say a few hundred people - there's no need and the vibe without feeling like you're being watched is spectacular.

piva00• 2 years ago

The production value is quite high now and still improving so I don't see why the illicit rave experience would be so interesting when the facilities would be so lacking in comparison. There are lots of electronic dance music events on boats, cruiseliners, retired battleships and more.

There will always be people attracted to the underground scene where the production value doesn't rank higher than the energy on the dancefloor.

It's good to have both options but they are very different experiences, the mainstream stuff with high production value is a show, it's meant for people who are going to parties to see specific artists and their shows.

That experience is quite opposite of what a good underground rave is, it's much more raw, less concerned about the surface-level showmanship; artists are there to provide a journey to the ones on the dancefloor but not to be the main star, the main star is supposed to be the party itself.

I really enjoy much more the experience of the underground scene, I don't see phones up in the air recording, I don't see people staring at a light show/screens with AV, the experience of getting lost with a crowd of people, all dancing, interacting among each other.

Personally I think it's quite good to have the mainstream scene, it filters out quite a lot of people who wouldn't belong in an underground rave.

watwut8• 2 years ago

The article also mentions that earlier ending events made to accommodate aging millennials have seen an unexpected and huge interest from Gen Z

I do not find it surprising. When I was younger (college age and soon after), I wanted events to start sooner and late events oftentimes discouraged me. It sucked even at that age. It is one thing to start dancing at 8pm and have endurance till the early morning, because you feel like it and have nothing to do the next day. And something completely different if you have to wait till 1am till the event starts. You get tired and dumber the next day, but the amount of dancing you got in exchange is just lower.

I was not using stimulants or anything like that and frankly, dropping amount of stimulants use among young people would explain larger younger crowd at earlier events.

skerit• 2 years ago

The article also mentions that earlier ending events made to accommodate aging millennials have seen an unexpected and huge interest from Gen Z

As a millennial in Belgium, my parties started no earlier than 23:00 and ended at 05:00. But maybe it makes sense that this is disappearing? My parents started partying at 19:00

bkeating• 2 years ago

It’s more alive than ever, I’d say. Just about any weekend in the Milwaukee/Chicago area has at least a couple parties. Proper underground shit. Not sure what it is, exactly, but it’s been feeling like a time portal back to the 90’s and I love it. Drop Bass Network and Chicago Redline will keep you plenty busy.

LandR• 2 years ago

Yeah, I'm in the UK and there are still regular late night dance / EDM nights in my city.

I was at one a couple of weekends ago, 11pm - 4am.

A good mix of ages too, people clearly in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. Everyone having a great time, I would guess at least 70% of the people were on something too, (MDMA, Ecstasy etc).

philipwhiuk• 2 years ago

Fixed venue clubs are definitely dying in the UK. Maybe being replaced by more subversive raves at temporary locations due to lower overheads.

(Neither really my scene).

bossyTeacher2• 2 years ago

MDMA and Ecstasy are the same thing afaik

PhunkyPhil3• 2 years ago

This rings in Minneapolis. The midwest definitely has a solid, consistent scene for house/techno/electronic with DJs bouncing between Minneapolis, Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago for sets.

The demographic is definitely millennial, with maybe ~25% being Gen Z.

It's also definitely not... popular. The biggest nights have a _way_ smaller turnout than college bars or city clubs. I'm not sure how strong the crowd actually was 10-20 years ago, but these clubs aren't in the mainstream appeal. Maybe from lack of marketing, maybe taste+preference.

puddnutz• 2 years ago

Created an HN account just to ask... what are the entry ways to know what sets are going on in Minneapolis? The person you replied to mentioned Drop Bass Network and Chicago Redline, both of which have easily follow-able accounts. Anything like that in this area?

anonzzzies2• 2 years ago

Too expensive? I see illegal dance parties in the countryside more than ever. And people drive far for them and sleep it off in the sun the next day (or so). Big bags of drugs (if you buy in bulk, drugs are those things that come with very large discounts) and wholesale energydrinks etc. So those are cheap, but I can see legal places would have issues maybe? High entry fees, super expensive drinks etc.

dagw6• 2 years ago

Despite the headline, the article makes it clear that it is talking about legal nightclubs, primarily in large cities. The younger generation just isn't into clubbing every weekend in that way, don't want to spend (or even have) that sort of money on going out, and the costs of running a club have skyrocketed.

At the same time, according to the article, it seems that larger one off events or festivals are still very popular. So the kids still want to dance.

I see illegal dance parties in the countryside more than ever

Who's attending these? Is it mainly the old timers or are they attracting a strong following from new generations?

anonzzzies2• 2 years ago

Who's attending these? Is it mainly the old timers or are they attracting a strong following from new generations?

Mostly 20somethings as far as I have seen; invites are word of mouth (aka Whatsapp) and we stumble on them because we hike around a lot and then have a chat. This is during the day when the partygoers are chilling out usually.

Oldtimers are mostly dancing in local bars to small cover bands. Also until the early morning usually and no coke/speed, but just beer/spirits.

diggan4• 2 years ago

Despite the headline, the article makes it clear that it is talking about legal nightclubs, primarily in large cities.

I guess since they used "rave", people assume they use the commonly understood definition of the word, not just "dancing at a random dance-club in the city", which I don't think many would consider "raving".

Who's attending these? Is it mainly the old timers or are they attracting a strong following from new generations?

Here in Spain there is a wide range of folks attending dance parties both the ones in/around big cities, and the ones out on the country-side. Obviously, the ones out on the country-side tend to have a crowd that is more "hippie" for the lack of better words, but otherwise I see all types of ranges and people from different walks of life. Mostly skew around my own age I think though, around 30 or so.

immibis6• 2 years ago

It's just the same force that's killing almost everything else in sight like a plague of locusts:

the rent

circlefavshape3• 2 years ago

Early dancing seems to be getting a bit of a boost though? Dayfever and Annie Mac's "Before Midnight" events seem to be v popular in Ireland and the UK

b800h4• 2 years ago

For as long as this is a thing, raves won't have widespread appeal.

If a rave is somewhere that your parents go, then it's naff.

It's also extremely expensive if it's legal. Everyone is brassic.

piltdownman2• 2 years ago

Yeah because public liability insurance has spiked beyond tolerable levels for post-watershed events, and the licensing board and constabulary are in lock-step for the granting of late licenses to bars and nightclubs to operate past 11.30pm

They use the most spurious justifications regarding newer commercial tenants and antisocial behaviour to deny the legacy cultural tenets their ability to operate as a late-night business from a licensing perspective.

circlefavshape3• 2 years ago

Nothing at all to do with there being a demographic who loves to dance, but is no longer willing/able to stay up all night?

(a demographic that includes myself fwiw)

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK2• 2 years ago

In my time night clubs were about hooking up, guess no need for that in the age of tinder?

b800h4• 2 years ago

Not if you're going to a rave-style event. That would be creepy and unwanted. At least back in my day (mid-90s).

latchkey2• 2 years ago

Anyone who reads this and knows, will understand... Sandwiches.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK2• 2 years ago

Don't know what "rave" is, in normal night clubs not hitting on anyone all night would be considered creepy. And dances are an essential element helping to ... close the distance. Always were, since middle ages.

gazunklenut4• 2 years ago

What? That's kind of creepy.

Raves are and always have been about dancing. The creeps walking around looking for hookups are just that, a bunch of weird creeps that annoy people trying to dance.

Edit: To clarify, it's creepy becaucse a lot of people are on something and pretty vulnerable, they're there to dance and enjoy the music and now some creep is trying to get in their pants while they're rolling and drunk

4ggr0• 2 years ago

Men will be men, sadly. Can't even feel safe when sober as a charming guy could decide to put roofies in your diet coke.

omnimus• 2 years ago

At same time this is pretty disingenuous calling people creeps. Yes you don't go to raves to look for hookups but at same time its social occasion and you can meet many people (in all kinds of states). And stuff wears off. So many people end up with new contacts if not straight up going with someone home. You know MDMA and sex match pretty well...

monitorlizard• 2 years ago

It's creepy if you have bad vibes. If you can read the room and take rejection with a smile I think it's chill

switchbak2• 2 years ago

"night clubs were about hooking up" - they weren't talking about raves. Night clubs were a different thing, and hooking up was definitely a big part of that. And for selling expensive liquor to people, but whatever.

mixmastamyk10• 2 years ago

The song, "Up all night to get lucky," would like a word with you.

nlnn• 2 years ago

It probably depends on the type of club/event.

Back in the day, there were rave/dance type clubs which were all about the dancing. They'd typically have focused genres of music, well known or regular DJs, etc.

Then there were more generic nightclubs (usually in University towns) which were where people went to either get drunk or hook up. Those would typically not focus much on music (usually playing crowd pleasers, 50s/60s/70s/80s/ tunes etc.), and instead bringing people in with cheap drinks offers, foam parties, fancy dress nights, etc.

aprilthird20214• 2 years ago

Also, as the comments will show you, we have a very negative attitude now towards anyone who wants to hookup with someone they just happened to see in person and tried to initiate with that person. So if that's the response you'll get, why go out? Stay in and play it safe with apps

taneq2• 2 years ago

I dunno about globally but daylight music festivals killed them for me back around 2005. Raves are about staying up all night in a dark room with good friends, good EDM, flashy lights, suggestive clothing and questionable substances. Take away the 'dark room' part and and turf the rest out onto a sports field at 11am and it's ruined.

widdershins• 2 years ago

In the UK a hybrid is increasingly popular. Start the rave at 2pm, end it at midnight, but it's in a dark room so it might as well be 4am. Usually in some semi-temporary space (e.g. Printworks, now defunct and moved to Drumshed).

I agree this loses some of the spirit of the original rave scene, but as an older person now it fits better for me. If the original late-night scene is dying it's because the younger generation doesn't care very much for this kind of night out.

PaulDavisThe1st• 2 years ago

  It's 5pm on Sunday
  No one knows we're dancing
  Outside the sun is blinding
  No one knows we're dancing

https://genius.com/Everything-but-the-girl-no-one-knows-were...

taneq2• 2 years ago

That’s fine if it’s in some dingy basement venue but if it’s broad daylight inside the actual event I’m going home.

FinnLobsien• 2 years ago

Maybe this is a dumb take, but how much of this is just demographics? Countries are getting older as birth rates decline, so you would expect a decline in things that skew younger in the audiences they attract.

xyzzy4747• 2 years ago

Also the people who go to raves aren’t helping with this, as most of them aren’t family focused. They have to get outsiders to join their subculture.

alisonatwork2• 2 years ago

I don't think it's a dumb take at all. It makes sense to me, especially together with housing unaffordability, which affects the disposable income of young people the worst.

dailykoder• 2 years ago

Because the author uses Berlin as an example. As a millenial that grew up in Berlin, I just think that the hype about, what used to be alternative, mainstream clubs is flattening. Especially techno and electro clubs. They are just not as great as social media wants you think they are.

People who love the music will go their for the music and will keep going. Social media folks that go there for the drugs and epic party will lose interest, because it's not as epic as they think it is.

Apart from that other alternative clubs are just doing fine (I am going mostly to drum and bass parties). Even though they got less. But I think the club dying there was because of other reasons, not the missing audience

Jorge1o1• 2 years ago

I think it’s health related, as the article mentions.

One executive in the entertainment industry said younger people were less inclined to go out raving until 6am as they were more health conscious and less frivolous with money than previous generations

This is the same generation that has 12 step skincare routines, eats only organic food, chooses to vape or zyn rather than smoke because of secondhand smoke, everyone has an Apple watch on their wrist tracking calories, etc.

If anything I’m surprised that binge drinking and going out late as survived as long as it has.

And as far as the money comment, this generation is not less frivolous there’s just less money to go around haha.

yoyohello133• 2 years ago

I do find these kinds of articles funny. "Why are the younger generations not destroying their bodies like we did?" Maybe we just don't want to bro.

marcosdumay• 2 years ago

Maybe we just don't want to bro.

There's nothing wrong with it (quite the opposite), but keep in mind that this is not a normal thing. Most generations didn't act like this.

mitemte2• 2 years ago

Having seen this generation at music festivals, I kind of disagree. I feel like the current generation go really hard on drugs.

In Australia, nightclub entry can be expensive, ranging from $20-50 per club. 10 years ago, you’d club hop, maybe going to 3-4 clubs from 11pm until 7am. These days, it’s not worth it. Drinks are like $12-16 for a basic mixed drink. A lot of patrons just drink at home, then drink (free) water and take MDMA and/or ketamine at clubs, which is significantly cheaper than a night of buying drinks.

SheinhardtWigCo• 2 years ago

The proportion of club nights running beyond 3am fell in 12 of 15 global cities between 2014 and 2024, according to a Financial Times analysis of events on listings website Resident Advisor.

Club nights are not raves. Raves are (usually) not posted on RA. The underground scene is doing just fine.

diggan4• 2 years ago

You're right, but on the other hand, are we really expecting "Financial Times" get even get "raving" right, or knowing about the underground scene?

The article seems to be written for people who reads a newspaper with their breakfast, not for people who had yet to gone asleep while that person reads their paper.

kasey_junk• 2 years ago

Raving has been around for 50 years, you’d think a paper could describe it correctly if not know the ins and outs of the current scene.

p00dles• 2 years ago

Well said. I like to imagine some old guy holding the pink FT pages in a London cafe, peering over his reading glasses while egg drips off of his toast onto his pleated houndstooth trousers.

BSDobelix• 2 years ago

or knowing about the underground scene?

Well, yes, it's just another kind of "underground scene", you know, the ones on private islands.

jjk1663• 2 years ago

I'd expect them to not write a piece about something with which they have no familiarity and that their target audience has no particular interest in.

specproc• 2 years ago

The FT is actually entertainingly into this sort of stuff.[0]

Honestly my favourite news outlet these days, despite my being well to the left of their editorial staff. I read it mostly for their drum and bass coverage.

[^0] See https://www.ft.com/content/7796593c-08ac-485c-afe9-a45ac2c28... or https://www.ft.com/content/084bab07-c5cf-4b25-ba7d-769af6b42..., but there's loads.

tokioyoyo• 2 years ago

From what I’ve gathered, nowadays, “raving” refers to all legal parties that are posted on RA as well. The biggest difference is, younger people associate specific venues/music as “rave”s, where mainstream music isn’t played, and people are more likely to party in the brains. It’s just the definition has shifted since the 2000s.

I wouldn’t discredit FT writers as well, as I’m assuming they’re writing for a specific audience.

seydor3• 2 years ago

I would assume their current writers have been to raves

Mashimo• 2 years ago

"Rave" now days is somewhat ambiguous. If anyone uses it you can't be sure what they mean. It changed in the last 20'ish years.

Kiro• 2 years ago

Yes, but the decline is real in the underground scene as well.

monocasa2• 2 years ago

At least near me I've seen a resurgence the last couple years.

jprete2• 2 years ago

I'm not in the club or rave scene - practically the opposite - but it astounds me that the FT thought they could draw useful conclusions about an underground scene by analyzing publicly-posted events on a site named Resident Advisor.

ZeWaka• 2 years ago

To be fair, RA is /the/ place to post more organized events. Even my local underground spot posts there. (Yes, it's underground, ~20 people show up to the small shows)

in-pursuit• 2 years ago

I assert this without evidence, but I would highly suspect club attendance numbers and rave attendance numbers to be strongly correlated.

carlmr• 2 years ago

Strong negative correlation? Can't attend both events, and most people only have the weekend to attend max one event.

GuB-424• 2 years ago

Maybe those who go to raves are more likely to go to clubs too, but it doesn't mean that a decrease in club attendance means a decease in rave attendance. It may simply mean that clubs are not the preferred destination for partygoers anymore.

To support that, it looks like music festival attendance is going up over the years. Music festivals are, I think, closer to raves than they are to night clubs, which, by the same logic, would suggest an increase in rave attendance.

Also worth mentioning that some of what was called a rave before is now a club. There is a difference between occupying a decommissioned soviet building after the fall of the Berlin Wall and a fancy club on high valued real estate, even though it used to be the same place.

tensor• 2 years ago

That doesn't make sense to me. Anecdotally, most people I know who love actual raves generally didn't go to clubs, for one.

But also more broadly, I've heard from multiple local venues that one big change is that EDM crowds don't drink as much. This means venues make A LOT less money, and that means fewer venues. If I had to guess, another factor is that younger crowds don't have the buying power older generations had, so if anything they would be MORE likely to go to an "illegal" rave with no cover and do some drugs instead of drinking.

Basically, to me, economic forces suggests that the rave crowd and club crowd are NOT correlated.

edit: and more anecdotal data for you, I use to go to a lot of clubs when I was young (and fewer raves), but now that I'm older me and my group tend to either throw our own parties at home with our own gear, or go to "listening bar" type venues that wouldn't typically be classified as a "club." We're all too old to drink high priced shitty beer and deal with lines and bouncers. I'd rather be able to have a top sound system, order an IPA or cocktail, and maybe even have a seat to lounge in!

saberience6• 2 years ago

The definition of "rave" is in question here, what it means depends on what country you're from, and even in given countries the idea of "rave" means different things to different people.

For me it means people dancing to electronic music and most likely taking drugs too. It can mean raving in a club or a festival or on the beach in Thailand or in a forest in the UK or in a warehouse in Brooklyn, if there's electronic dance music and drugs, then it's a rave.

Here is what Claude says: "A rave is a large dance party or festival typically featuring electronic dance music (EDM), characterized by: Extended duration - often running late into the night or through early morning hours Electronic music - featuring DJs playing various genres like house, techno, trance, and drum & bass Distinctive atmosphere - using elements like elaborate light shows, lasers, fog machines, and visual projections Communal experience - bringing together large groups of people dancing in a shared space"

maplant• 2 years ago

I cannot comment on the article - it’s paywalled - but I can talk about the claim in the headline.

I can tell from my personal experience that I stopped going because most club shows start earliest at 10 pm, and even then headliner probably goes on at 1, and that’s just not sustainable for me, especially if I wanted to take a risk and see someone I was 50/50 on.

I’m aging, I’m 29, I enjoy the morning a lot more than I used to. It’s just too exhausting. And if the music isn’t perfect, you’re left bored and exhausted. The venues are also way too crowded, drinks are expensive, it’s just not as good of a time as in smaller underground venues.

I’d rather go to a show during the day, or early evening and HAVE and they’ve been GREAT but house and techno acts are compelled to start after midnight, and I will probably never go to one of those again.

alisonatwork2• 2 years ago

I'm in my mid 40s and it's the same problem for me. I can push myself through an all-nighter if the music is really great, but most of the time it isn't, and then it's just tedious waiting around for something better to come on when I know I could go home and buy a couple dozen new tracks on Bandcamp that are exactly to my taste. Sure I wouldn't get to listen to them on a banging sound system or stomp my heart out amongst a couple hundred like-minded nutters, but if I'm honest half the time I'm going wild on the dancefloor these days the rest of the crowd is waiting around for a different style of music than the one I'm particularly into so it's not an especially communal event anyway.

I'm not sure if I have gotten more picky about music than I used to be - I certainly remember getting into ridiculous arguments over sub-sub-subgenres back in the 90s - but when I was younger perhaps I was simply a bit more tolerant of dancing to music that wasn't exactly what I liked? Or maybe I was so full of energy and excitement about going out in the first place that the music wasn't as make-or-break for me back then?

Last year I settled into a routine of going to a small outdoor rave once every few months or so, ones with daytime components so I could join at dawn. The music played at outdoor parties in my area is not exactly my favorite, but at least it's still electronic and because it's less exhausting to dance during my normal waking hours I don't mind so much.

I definitely miss being so sucked into the vibe that I can't pull myself away, but I've just accepted that that's not something you can really get everywhere all the time. In certain cities, at certain times, when there's a big enough local crew whose tastes exactly align with yours, you'll have a magical few years, but then the music changes, the people change, and it'll be another dry spell. I like to think, though, that my dry spells are someone else's peak years. Maybe it all balances out in the end?

randomopining6• 2 years ago

It's probably what you've said. I think perception changes, all the different venues and different types of music were once exciting. Then your brain forms the patterns and isn't as excited by x,y and maybe only z elicits a reaction.

Then you become more and more a morning person, so in the evening you aren't even that hyped up and your brain is already trying to call it a night.

For me something like standard 4x4 techno has become so formulaic that it doesnt interest me as much

randomopining6• 2 years ago

Yeah it's such a sacrifice. Many of the acts come on at 1am earliest, but usually 3am. That's getting home before 6 if you're lucky and then the whole next day is wasted.

misterbishop• 2 years ago

I'm pretty sure the writers at FT just don't know where the cool shit is.

chuckwfinley• 2 years ago

https://archive.is/2025.01.01-212538/https://www.ft.com/cont...

Non paywalled link

Nexxxeh• 2 years ago

In the two cities either side of me, a large portion of the organised events (on the DnB side at least) seem to be going daytime with a 10pm or 11pm finish on a weekend.

Great fun.

And there's still nighttime ones (also great fun) and illegal ones (which look to also be great fun).

raverbashing• 2 years ago

Yeah, honestly after a while nobody has time or patience to stay all night "partying" anymore

The demographic that has that energy are also the ones that skip on a cover charge as much as possible and pregame

wintermutestwin• 2 years ago

I’d love to find DnB with 10-11pm finish time. Any tips on finding them in the SF bay area?

bckr• 2 years ago

You can find pretty much any dance event in the bay at 19hz.info

detourdog• 2 years ago

Anyone go to cat head's parties in the early 90's. There were cat's head spray painted on the sidewalk leading to abandoned warehouses on the Brooklyn waterfront. The legend was they were worlwide. Some friend of mine knew to follow them.

withinboredom2• 2 years ago

or the pile of solo cups on the corner when you turn, for those of us or went to illegal beach bonfire parties in the outer banks!

hirvi74• 2 years ago

Outer Banks like of NC? I spent some time down there, and didn't think there were enough people for something like that to happen.

motohagiography• 2 years ago

call a number on the card, use a phone booth, find the pickup point, 1am-2am was the appointed time, get on a schoolbus with everyone else, go to a warehouse, nobody knows where, dance until sunrise, somehow make it back more alive than you started. it must have worked because we were good people, there's no other explanation.

berlinbrowndev• 2 years ago

I love electronic music. Been listening to it for 30 years. Mostly drumbass, dubstep, some house. Groups like subfocus. I used to listen to tiesto, bt, etc.

One, I hated the term "raving". I was thought raves were finding an abandoned house, playing music and drugs. I just like the music and don't need the dance clubs or the drugs.

But with the said, I think the "club" scene has dropped off. Expensive drinks. Expensive covers. Who wants that.

Has the music droppped off? I think it kind of merged into more mainstream music.

Cthulhu_2• 2 years ago

Exactly, the organized events are just too expensive; when I think of "someone who goes to raves", they have the means to do so every weekend or at least once a month, but who can afford that kind of thing nowadays when prices have gone way up while income has stagnated?

milesward• 2 years ago

amen to BT

mtalantikite3• 2 years ago

This exactly. I've been to "raves", they were just giant parties with $3 beers in an abandoned or semi-legal building somewhere in Brooklyn. I was surprised when I started hearing people call giant corporate venues with dancing "raves".

I went out to one of those giant clubs in Brooklyn not too long ago to see a friend DJ (Brooklyn Mirage). I was on guestlist, but the cover would have been $50. I bought a round of drinks to say thanks, and for three drinks I paid $75. Plus they made me load a credit card on some stupid wristband to even get the drinks. What 20-something can afford to do that with any regularity? Their rent is already 2-3x what I paid when I moved to Brooklyn nearly 20 years ago.

I don't buy the "young kids don't want to go out late anymore". They just never encountered scenes that were consistently relaxed, fun, and cheap.

jterrys• 2 years ago

A lot of entertainment is priced in and the powers that be lament that young people aren't falling for it anymore.

You like sports? Well, you need a subscription to see their away games, a subscription to see their home games, and a separate subscription to see their games in season, and a subscription to see their off season. You want to see them in person? well.....

You like music? Well, the cost of a ticket to see your favorite artist is $80 + $60 in fees. Online purchase fee. Printing fee. Seat Reservation fee. etc.

Wanna go out for a few drinks? That'll be $8 for shitty beer on tap

Want to go anywhere? Time to reserve your parking spot, or pay your parking ticket. Public transport outside NY? lol. Can't really get drunk or high now either since you need to kinda be sober enough to get back. Or fuck it! Uber and pay an extra $50 in surge charge fees!

Want to go to the museum on the weekend while you visit a city? Well, too bad, it's very congested so the museum has surge charged the price of the ticket to $70 (the Shedd Aquarium special in Chicago).

I'm good I think I'll just stay home and jerk off

quotz2• 2 years ago

Brooklyn Mirage is hardly a rave place, just a club. Went last year it was pretty terrible. The sound was so quiet I could talk with my gf without yelling. There was also a food vendor inside the venue for whatever weird reason. Paid $300 for tickets and 2 drinks. I heard basement is a good place but never been. Europe's techno parties and raves are still going strong and no food vendors inside ofcourse we are not that lame.

vrosas2• 2 years ago

What 20-something can afford to do that with any regularity?

Practically every 20-something (and just as many 30+ somethings) I know in NYC DO do this very regularly, especially if they already live in wburg/bushwick. If they're not there, they're mixing it up at nowadays.

ozzzy1• 2 years ago

This so much. As a gen z living in new york city, the first question people ask me when I pitch a night out is how much it'll cost.

With insane ticket, cover and drink costs. People would rather stay in and do something cheaper.

I will say the underground scene is thriving because of this though.

throwaway_952833• 2 years ago

I can tell you living in south america that this is true. Three drinks esp. caiprinhas even at the expensive places would be about $13, $8 or $9 on promo. Cover for the fancy place is $17. Bottle service is $34.

Plus the bombed out building post war Berlin industrial feel is 1. Real, and 2. free for the promoter and the drinks are cheaper there. Yes, that's real barbed wire, and yes, its really electrified.

ajsnigrutin• 2 years ago

Yep, "back in my time", you could go to parties with then relatively famous DJ's (from gigi d'agostino, gabry ponte, etc., to our locals like Umek and Sylvain) for the entry fee equivalent of then ~2 street kebabs, and "club dj's" (local dj, playing other peoples popular music) for a price of ~1 kebab.

Drinks were a lot cheaper, but for most of us, it was drinking store bought drinks outside, then going in and having one or two drinks inside.

Now, an event like this, 60eur+ (~15 kebabs) for less known DJs, and you can't even sit down at a table/booth, you need to reserve those in advance and pay like 300eur (+ tickets.. but you get a bottle of cheap vodka and like 4 redbulls in the price). And it's a night club, a few tables and benches were always a must for those who either drank a bit too much or took a bit too much of the happy pills.

daxfohl• 2 years ago

Enshittification

evanelias2• 2 years ago

One, I hated the term "raving"

Completely agreed on the terminology. When I got into the scene (late 90s, Philly and Baltimore), everyone legit totally avoided saying "rave" or "raving" when talking with other folks in the scene. We all just said "party", and it was clear what you were talking about based on context (and, for better or worse, clothing style). No one said "ravers" either, it was always "party kids" instead, at least among the younger end of the crowd.

"Party" could interchangeably refer to either a "one-off" event or a club weekly/monthly, and similarly made no connotations as to whether or not the venue was licensed/above-board. Unlicensed one-offs were referred to as "outlaw", "warehouse party", etc. There were also unlicensed venues which threw regular weekly/monthly parties and these were absolutely amazing, so I'm a bit perplexed by the folks here saying a "real" rave is only an unlicensed one-off.

In any case, in my area, as a term "rave" was largely only used by news media, law enforcement, and outsiders who completely misunderstood what the scene was about. The only major exception was internet discussions – web sites like ravelinks.com, newsgroups like alt.rave. But even there, "rave" in the name just helped people find the sites, and still wasn't a term thrown around much in actual discussions.

Has the music droppped off?

No, it's better than ever in my opinion, especially for non-mainstream house-adjacent music. There are a ton of talented producers who are seamlessly merging many genres and influences... folks are combining classic UK rave synths (well, really from Belgian New Beat originally) with Italo-disco, or taking trance and adding in happy hardcore elements, etc. Many classic samples and sounds, but given a new twist, it's great.

That said, I used to be a major drum and bass head back in the day, but largely lost interest in that genre as it became less danceable over the years. Not to mention my knees aren't what they used to be...

Dalewyn• 2 years ago

No one said "ravers" either, it was always "party kids" instead, at least among the younger end of the crowd.

Over in Japan the term was party people which slurred into pary people and finally paripi which is the term today.

Just some interesting culture from the other side of the pond.

Der_Einzige3• 2 years ago

Glad you brought up some of the musicians (Tiesto).

Looking back on "Trance" and "House" as genres they seem really vapid, vain, and dare I say it, decadent. Reading about the "mecca" of these genres, Ibiza, makes me wish I'd never listened to this stuff growing up.

linuxdude314• 2 years ago

Virtue signaling your dislike of music because of the environment it is played in is asinine.

Do you wish you’d never listened to Mozart? He was a serial misogynist after all.

I can understand parents not wanting their children to listen to music with explicit lyrics, but for an adult to feel this way?

Music is not decadent.

glitchcrab• 2 years ago

Nitpick, but it's Sub Focus and he is one person

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_Focus

portaouflop• 2 years ago

Electronic underground is still well and alive. Sure there is lots of mainstream electronica now but if you look a bit you’ll find tons of new fresh stuff.

Sure you can organise raves in illegal locations but a club can still be about the music and can be a more sustainable “home” for the music.

Sure it’s a lot more expensive but then again everything is - the clubs just need to survive somehow.

Tbh I live in Berlin, where rave culture is most alive probably

quesomaster90002• 2 years ago

Some of the best events I've ever been to have been where a collective has organized the Nth annual event etc. which has taken over an entire location or venue and brought in a really diverse but very friendly crowd with them from all over the place.

But yes, every other day of the week, it's like a restaurant that serves music, the machine must go on, rent gets paid, food in bellies etc.

hnlmorg2• 2 years ago

Has the music droppped off? I think it kind of merged into more mainstream music.

There’s still plenty of “underground” dance music and events going on.

The main stream stuff is just another sub genre of electronic music.

drstewart• 2 years ago

Maybe the same person who killed the disco

fuzzylightbulb• 2 years ago

Are you by chance referring to the time that "...a Chicago DJ named Steve Dahl detonated a dumpster filled with disco records between White Sox games at Comiskey Park, leading to a riot"?

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20230922-the-night-angry...

anotheruser13• 2 years ago

At the time, I was a punk working in a great record store in the Western suburbs of Chicago (shout out to Johnny B Goode Records & Stuff!). I sent a number of promo disco records we'd received to Disco Demolition Night. I still laugh about how it turned out... Those were the days.

darkwizard422• 2 years ago

Interesting. My experience in NYC even with folks in the 20s is they prefer going out BEFORE it gets super late, with the super late nights only happening for shows (where the DJ/main act doesn't come on till 1:30 AM).

I've also anecdotally seen more day parties which might be driven by demand from the former rave crews who are aging out.

lelandfe4• 2 years ago

NYC as well. I thought that too and then realized it was just who I was surrounded by. You can find some extremely late night shows throughout the city that get packed with young people. Hop from Paragon to H0L0 to Nowadays and be out from 10pm until 10am, grab some pancakes at a diner, and take the train home.

Did that journey recently with a Canadian friend who moved here as his welcome party :) On nothing stronger than booze, too!

darkwizard422• 2 years ago

For sure, I think this does however line up with even younger folks who aren't going to generic clubs for a late night. They would just start earlier, bars/etc. and then end earlier. The full night bangers are definitely still very viable (and as crowded as you would like them) in NYC

Cthulhu_2• 2 years ago

The main act starting at 1:30 AM while (thinking of the US) a lot of people work weekends or even if they don't, their weekly schedule is 9-5 and so their sleep schedule is / should be like 12-7 is mad, it makes sense that going out matches more with that schedule so you don't get cicadean whiplash from doing night shifts over the weekend.

That said, in the UK for a good while now a lot of places are closed at midnight, on paper to prevent excessive drinking and nighttime troubles. In practice people just drink more and earlier in the day.

barnabee2• 2 years ago

Yeah, so-called "day raves", including one day festivals in parks have grown massively in London, possibly at the expense of late/all night options.

Perhaps a perfect storm… 90s/00s ravers are older now and appreciate the loer impact on the rest of their week of starting and finishing earlier and the younger generation is less into the wilder side of partying, so noon – midnight perhaps works out better for everyone a lot of the time.

steveBK1232• 2 years ago

Probably a bunch of factors...

Tier 1 city RE prices have made live entertainment venues harder to run profitably.

GenZ studies have found a lower participation in "risky behavior" which late night clubbing may or not be considered.

Mobile internet & smartphones seem to be killing all forms of live in person interaction.

And finally electronic music of various forms used to be a niche, and now it's mainstream. In the 90s/00s my consumption of electronic music was mp3 downloads of BBC late night recordings. Now pop is electronic, electronic is pop, it's all on the radio, it's unavoidable.

jamestimmins• 2 years ago

It's shocking how often the answer to "How come X changed?" is either the creation of the internet or the cost of real estate.

Surprisingly often, it's both.

KeplerBoy• 2 years ago

It's interesting how the creation of the internet still hasn't caused real estate prices to plummet.

Even two years of covid couldn't do it.

adverbly3• 2 years ago

It's shocking how often the answer to real estate issues is "land value tax would fix this!"

mrguyorama2• 2 years ago

More like "How come the younger generations aren't doing <Fun thing>?"

Because they can't afford it.

Also my belief is that people don't do anything anymore because nobody gets really bored anymore. Boredom is a powerful motivator to make plans, set up clubs, find interests, meet people etc.

Now you just swipe through instagram for a few minutes and boom, no more boredom.

tbrownaw• 2 years ago

It's shocking how often the answer to "How come X changed?" is either the creation of the internet or the cost of real estate.

Why is it shocking? The Internet is the current Big Thing that's upending everything the way previous Big Things (steam engine, movable type, etc) did. And real estate prices are one of the central coordination mechanisms for arranging things in the physical world.

brabel2• 2 years ago

When my mom was teen, she says the way they had the most fun was to go to dancing parties in people's houses and sometimes in some special venue for younger people. That was in the 60's. As I grew up in the 80's we had nothing like that, we just went to night clubs or some street full of bars/restaurants. Dancing was mostly a thing you did by yourself, like in most night clubs still these days, not like she describes, with "their faces touching" :D.

It seems to me that every single generation changed and there needs not be an external reason for that other than young people wanting to do things the way they see fit, which normally is anything different from what their parents see as ideal.

BriggyDwiggs423• 2 years ago

Since people keep trying to draw the connection, I’ll try my hand.

The Internet is the most recent technology that is enabled a small number of individuals to become vastly wealthy alongside, of course, a certain lax style of government. As wealth inequality increases, more of the money in the economy becomes tied up in wealthy people’s investments and savings, which inflates asset prices.

dnissley2• 2 years ago

This is the housing theory of everything

UltraSane4• 2 years ago

Seems like rent is so high in big cities that so many businesses are no longer possible.

I think one solution to lower rent is a rule that for every month a rental property is vacant its book value declines by 10 times the rent.

post-it2• 2 years ago

I think one solution to lower rent is a rule that for every month a rental property is vacant its book value declines by 10 times the rent.

Wouldn't that just lower its property tax, thereby making it more profitable for owners to leave venues unrented (compared to the status quo)?

gosub1003• 2 years ago

My fantasy solution is that ALL businesses near expensive areas must pay a minimum wage high enough to rent a place (or a room) there.

If the barista must be paid $109k to afford to live there, then let Starbucks jack the price of a plain black coffee to $17 for a small. Fewer people will be willing to pay this, Starbucks will go out of business and virtually nothing will fill its place. Suddenly these multimillion dollar homes will be in barren wastelands and, gee, maybe they won't be worth so much anymore. A softer solution is to pay the low wage workers from the time they leave the front door, if the wages are insufficient to live nearby.

HellDunkel3• 2 years ago

My guess is: the pandemic and online dating.

CalChris• 2 years ago

The pandemic killed off a lot of social structures. The casual carpool going from various East Bay locations to downtown San Francisco is gone. The reward for the driver picking people up (express lane, lower toll) is the same. The people are largely the same. But the institution didn't magically restart after COVID.

post-it2• 2 years ago

Tier 1 city RE prices have made live entertainment venues harder to run profitably.

Which, in turn, makes events that do happen more expensive, decreasing turnout. If there's a Friday night event for CA$15 with CA$5 drinks, I'm much more likely to go than if it costs CA$50 with CA$15 drinks.

dehrmann• 2 years ago

And that makes the city less desirable, so fewer people live there, and RE prices find an equilibrium.

MisterTea2• 2 years ago

Tier 1 city RE prices have made live entertainment venues harder to run profitably.

Abandoned warehouses and other commercial building you could host a rave were once plenty in NYC. No more. Hell when I was a kid there were three abandoned factory buildings in my neighborhood we'd break into and become our "club house" in grade school. You just had to watch for squatters and neighbors calling the cops. Now you're lucky if there are even lots around - most have been built on already.

stickfigure• 2 years ago

The craziest thing happened this NYE. I live in the country, more or less Bay Area, at the end of a long (2-3mi) dead end road. My neighbor's house is empty and posted for sale. Someone broke in and threw a rave there. The party was advertised online and they were selling tickets:

https://monosnap.com/direct/YxtOr5VARRXTAIr2Ej9ae5KCjAjRfn

The owners (who live across the street) confronted them immediately. Bouncers dressed in "security" shirts forced them away. It took 1.5 hours for the sheriffs to show up.

The whole neighborhood is traumatized.

harvodex• 2 years ago

Exactly. All the places I went to 30 years ago for a rave are now nice areas.

Someone would call the cops for the amount of noise now before the party even started.

Then factor in fentanyl.

Maybe most of all though, in the mid 90s electronic music was a new thing in the US.

The first rave I went to , I really didn't even know what I was going to. The reason I stopped going was the novelty had completely worn off. Amazing times but the falloff was rather steep.

grahamj5• 2 years ago

I would add that ravers grew up. Kids don’t want to do what their parents did.

steve_adams_86• 2 years ago

I was going to say "when I was a kid, raves happened out in the woods where there is no real estate cost", but then I realized the lack of socializing or risky behaviours pretty much eliminates this form of partying today, haha. It's also impossible for kids living in most population centres. I guess it was just a weird rural-kid thing here in Western Canada.

I wasn't a raver but I went to a couple, and wow, what a time. There's nothing quite like the smell of a diesel generator and the sound of earth-shaking bass surrounded by dancing zombies inventing dance moves on each beat, deep in a pacific north west forest. I had a few of friends who were into that scene.

drowntoge• 2 years ago

Gen≠Z here, and that does sound like the best party ever.

arrowsmith• 2 years ago

These parties existed in England in the late 2000s. I went to a few, and they usually resembled a zombie apocalypse.

No idea what the UK rave scene is like these days.

schlch• 2 years ago

These kind of parties are still happening. At least in Europe this is still a thing.

I’m in my thirties and have been involved with these kind of parties for at least ten years.

A general trend that I have been observing for years though is what usually is being referred to as „TikTok Guys“. This involves guys and girls in their early twenties wearing fetish outfits and doing lots of drugs.

I don’t care about people coming in fetish outfits to our parties but I don’t want some young guy overdose on one our parties. In practice this means that we have been much more careful about who knows when and where a party is happening.

bballer• 2 years ago

This is still how we do it in Mexico, but instead of the woods, its in a Arroyo, wedged between a mountain and a beach. Good stuff.

beepbopboopp• 2 years ago

I actually think those are not the main factors. What really happened was for the first time in history, there was competition on how you could talk and "hang" with friends. Mobile phones and then social media made it so people would go out, then check their phones, socials and not even be present there and then ultimately the next time theyd opt-to to stay home and do what they were gonna do at the club at home.

This seems like mostly a case of competition for activity than anything.

randomopining6• 2 years ago

This is it. The phone scrolling has become so addicting that people just go on their phones. And audio quality. You can enjoy the music sometimes at better quality in your own home and scrolling all the same.

hinkley• 2 years ago

Narcotics and alcohol use is also down in this generation, and I wonder if that’s the risky behavior aspect vs marijuana legalization. I’d like to see a study that broke down by state to see if there’s any correlation there.

The forbidden fruit is sweetest. If you can go get THC gummies whenever then you don’t need to grab whatever is available right now.

But I think too that Covid is a huge problem. Rave age now is people who were at a delicate phase of interpersonal development five years ago. And just hanging out in crowded places is now risky behavior.

Living in a world freshly built to cater specifically to them did strange things to Baby Boomer’s heads. COVID is going to do something equally bad to GenZ (and A) in more or less the opposite direction and I worry what it will be.

escapecharacter• 2 years ago

the best raves these days have great anti-phone measures: - stickers on cameras - you can’t even take your phone out of your pocket on the dance floor

Some places I visited in Berlin even required checking in your phone at coat check. These were the best-organized coat checks I’d seen in my life.

UncleOxidant2• 2 years ago

I think we could say that covid killed a lot of these activities (some were already in decline, but covid delivered the final blow). GenZ just happened to be coming of age during the pandemic years and thus prefers to stay home as they see that as normative. Millennials are past the rave stage as they're getting into their 40s.

ghaff7• 2 years ago

I hesitate to write a lot of things off to COVID because, if you look at some presentations/papers from early on in the pandemic, a lot of things probably changed less than the "experts" thought they would. That said, I also see various things that were on a downward trajectory or cruising on momentum being given a downward shove by COVID.

Neywiny• 2 years ago

As a Gen Z who was a shut in long before COVID, I disagree. I knew plenty of people who loved going out before, during, and after lockdown. I'd guess only a fraction of people who liked going out before found the joy of staying home. But likewise I'm sure there were some who found it miserable at home and after lockdown vowed to be more outgoing.

ethbr17• 2 years ago

In the 90s/00s my consumption of electronic music was mp3 downloads of BBC late night recordings.

'This. is. Radio. One. Essential... Essential...'

steveBK1232• 2 years ago

That’s right

_DeadFred_6• 2 years ago

chills

jejeyyy77• 2 years ago

none of these seem to resonate based on what I see anecdotally

mikepurvis3• 2 years ago

I'm a millennial (38) who never participated in the "risky behaviour" that is raving, clubbing, hooking up, etc.

What I do do though is travel for swing dance events [1], which often involves live music, bluesy late night parties, etc. I also have friends who do similar for salsa dancing and board game / anime / nerd conventions. So I wonder if part of this is that "staying up late doing fun thing with semi-strangers" has expanded to more domains than freestyle dancing to electronic music?

[1]: eg https://dclx.org/ https://www.instagram.com/bal_moment/ https://www.balweek.com/about

bradlys2• 2 years ago

Swing dance is down overall compared to ten+ years ago in NA. There are way less events. The events don't go as late either. It used to be that almost every event would go to 5am. The crowd at these events is much older now too. It used to be primarily under 30 and now it's well over 30.

technotarek• 2 years ago

RE prices were zero in my rave days : https://technotarek.com/shows/richie-hawtin

brabel2• 2 years ago

Exactly. People used to organize stuff in the middle of some forest and miraculously hundreds of people showed up.

racl101• 2 years ago

And finally electronic music of various forms used to be a niche, and now it's mainstream.

I think this is definitely the biggest reason.

The average YouTube video probably has serious electronic music going for it.

Back in the '80s and '90s you felt rebellious listening to that stuff. Now it's so common it borders on proverbial.

I'd probably go to a public venue that plays 90s and 2000s electronic music but for me it would be the equivalent of my boomer mom going to a Fleetwood Mac concert in the '90s. Just more nostalgia than a desire to relive the rave days. There's no way I could dance the way I used to in the '90s. There would need to be seating there for my old Xennial butt.

lemax• 2 years ago

There is still a vast web of international niche electronic music scenes and artists, and elements of electronic music as well as the instruments used to produce it have been used in popular music for many decades (Donna Summer, 80s new wave bands, Madonna, etc).

veunes3• 2 years ago

It’s wild to think how much smartphones and social media have changed things...

hnlmorg2• 2 years ago

Late night raves might be in the decline but day raves are increasing in popularity.

I think the biggest factor for the decline of night raves is just that people are more health conscious and night raves takes a lot of toll on the body.

Earw0rm9• 2 years ago

Online dating.

I guarantee that only about one in five male clubbers were truly "only there for the music". Maybe fewer than that.

Women went along with it because, well, what was the alternative, and the contemporary culture encouraged it.

Online dating has its problems, certainly, but the risks people took in the 70s, 80s, 90s were kind of insane by today's standards. And also the amount of unwanted attention women had to put up with. Sure, some of the attention was wanted, but surely not most of it.

stefankorun• 2 years ago

The risks are called living your life – there is a inherent risk with traveling, hiking, wandering around as a kid, and almost any activity outside of staring at a screen.

snek_case2• 2 years ago

Having been to raves, another issue you run into if you go there to meet people is that the kind of people who will hook up at raves probably don't want anything serious. It's a super hedonistic environment. If you want more than a one night stand any other form of dating is better.

leptons4• 2 years ago

I guarantee that only about one in five male clubbers were truly "only there for the music". Maybe fewer than that.

Clubs aren't really raves though. Yes, most single people going to clubs are looking to hook up - all a "club" really is, is a bar with a DJ. A real rave typically doesn't even sell alcohol. But I'd wager that most single people going to actual raves (in warehouses or outdoors) are either too high to even think about hooking up, or really are there for the music and to dance - at least through the 1990's and early 2000s. I'm in the latter group, I'm a guy who went to raves (in warehouses and outdoors) for the music, as did everyone else I knew. Nobody was trying to hook up, it was definitely about getting our dance on.

rurp2• 2 years ago

Mobile internet & smartphones seem to be killing all forms of live in person interaction.

Right, most types of social gatherings have decreased over the past 15 years. Events that haven't fallen off are the noteworthy ones.

leptons4• 2 years ago

The quality of today's electronic music has gone way down too, it's just not really appealing at all. My wife who was very much a raver in the 90's calls the new music "alarm clock sounds" - something designed to annoy instead of make you dance. It's just so abrasive and lacking any funkiness or danceability at all. It's no wonder kids these days are turning towards other forms of entertainment. My niece who is her early 20s is into Pearl Jam. At least their music has some kind of soul to it.

spamizbad• 2 years ago

GenZ studies have found a lower participation in "risky behavior" which late night clubbing may or not be considered.

I think they just do different risk-taking behavior. Sports betting seems way more prevalent, and Gamblers Anonymous is reporting way more younger people attending meetings.

throaway9202• 2 years ago

and risky porn is at an all time high

kstrauser14• 2 years ago

One big change is that they got better and much more organized. I go to an annual event with a few hundred of my friends and family. We rent a lodge in a national forest, set up an enormous sound system, and dance for 3 days around some very confused deer. There are food trucks and coffee bars and dozens of portapotties scattered around, plus daytime poolside sets while we swim around and listen to 100dB house.

We grayvers still like to have fun, just more comfortably. We have work next week, you know.

FiberBundle• 2 years ago

A yeah the deer are just confused, no need to worry. Keep partying!

pimeys• 2 years ago

We did that same thing for ten years in a row. Especially fun when some catastrophe happens, like a lightning strike to the house when everybody's in the garden, breaking all fuses, water pump etc. Remember we had probably three years without some crazy accident. Nobody got killed though, so all good.

kstrauser14• 2 years ago

Ah, good ol’ type 2 fun, where afterward someone can sell “ride the lightning” tshirts as a fundraiser.

polairscience• 2 years ago

Where's my invite?

latchkey2• 2 years ago

One big change is that they got better and much more organized.

If I'm thinking of the same groups you're mentioning, they were already super organized. Mostly because they've been going for decades now.

kstrauser14• 2 years ago

If you’re thinking of groups, plural, then you probably know the ones I mean. And yeah, I wear the 20th anniversary tank top to the gym.

grahamj5• 2 years ago

lol @ grayvers

I left it all behind years ago but your event sounds awesome. Glad some people still keep the vibe alive.

kstrauser14• 2 years ago

Honestly, you won't find me on the dance floor. I'll be meandering around listening to the music I love at seismic sound levels, looking at the art exhibits people set up, and chilling with my friends. I just want to soak up the vibes and love everyone and the world for a few days, not dance myself to exhaustion.

SequoiaHope• 2 years ago

In Oakland we still have plenty of renegades!

kstrauser14• 2 years ago

Hey, neighbor. You sure do, and I'm happier for it!

rib3ye• 2 years ago

can i get on the list?

circlefavshape3• 2 years ago

Where do you live?

kstrauser14• 2 years ago

I'm in NorCal near Oakland.

flocciput• 2 years ago

How much does it cost (not to organize, but for someone to attend)?

kstrauser14• 2 years ago

There’s a wide range, but the specific one I described is around $200 for a 3 day weekend.

guynamedloren• 2 years ago

I’m confused. You say that you “go to” an annual event, but then you describe it at a massive private festival that you’re self organizing. Which is it?

TheRealPomax• 2 years ago

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

karlgkk2• 2 years ago

As someone who does something similar, it’s easily both

rizz0• 2 years ago

The best festivals are co-creative experiences.

kstrauser14• 2 years ago

There are all sorts of volunteer roles someone needs to do, from directing parking, to helping in the kitchen, to roaming around at 3am to see if anyone needs help, to working the first aid stand, and a hundred other things. I always sign up for at least a couple of shifts doing something, so feel like part of the "we" helping to put it on, but it's still something I go to as a participant to have fun.

marcus_holmes• 2 years ago

In Australia these are known as "bush doofs" and are essentially community events - they're organised, run and attended by a group of people rather than an organisation.

You can't buy tickets to them, you have to know someone who's in the group chat for them. You can just turn up on the day if you know where the event is; they're always incredibly remote, usually on a patch of bush (forest) on someone's enormous farm or a national park, pitch a tent, join in, help out where you can. Security is "if you act like a dickhead you'll be asked politely to leave by a bunch of people". There's no financial contribution, except sometimes a hat is passed around if someone had to pay for equipment hire or similar. You can buy drugs there, but only if you know the person you're buying from; usually better to sort yourself out before you go, there won't be anyone advertising anything for sale at the doof.

block_dagger2• 2 years ago

I imagine it's more than just the deer who are affected by 100dB sound pollution and "confused" is probably quite an understatement.

o0-0o• 2 years ago

Hmmm

Raves died in the 90s for a few reasons.

1. They made dancing illegal (look it up before rage comments).

2. Corporate sponsors moved in.

3. Glow sticks / candy ravers

4. Drugs

5. Police tactics and not being able to be paid off by promoters.

6. The internet (remember map points and info lines?)

7. Models, actresses, famous types going and demanding special service / VIP.

8. DJ as GOD sick gross

9. OG promoters cashing out and not caring. Think Drop Bass and Daft Punk (google it).

10. Techno mainstream / a la hip hop. (DRUGS/S&M)

kstrauser14• 2 years ago

What sound pollution? There are permits and everything, and woodlands are really, really big. A couple hills over you wouldn't be able to hear a thing.

justinator• 2 years ago

I still remember the first one I was supposed to go to. They didn't tell you the location until the day of.

It was a high school gymnasium.

Didn't work out so well.

inopinatus• 2 years ago

So, basically, everyone grew up.

mmanfrin• 2 years ago

I was up there this summer, great weekend :)

kstrauser14• 2 years ago

Right on! I missed this summer and the fall classic, but plan to head back to at least one of them this year.

(My social media profile pic is me wearing neon glasses there one year.)

KingMob• 2 years ago

Lol at grayver. I guess my beard now counts.

In my corner of the woods back in the 90's, we also had the occasional "graver" (no y) who were mixing up rave and goth aesthetics.

mschuster912• 2 years ago

At least here in Germany, NIMBYs and their foot-soldiers aka team 1312 is very much to blame, next to gentrification.

Clubs in cities that have existed for decades get yeeted out of their rental contracts as there is no renter protection for commercial rental contracts - once it expires or gets terminated under the provisions of the contract (usually because some hipster shithole is willing to pay even more money), that's it. Others lose their license because people moving from the countryside can't cope with the noise and call the police all the time.

Clubs in rural areas almost don't exist anymore because of rural flight eliminating a lot of the customer base and what remains gets taken off the road by DUI enforcement.

That leaves illegal outdoor raves, and team 1312 has been aggressively beating down on these even over a decade ago when I was the tech guy for a local rave group. It's not made easier by the fact that there will always be some dumbasses dragging their minor siblings with them and other people not caring whom they sell MDMA and whatnot to, so you'll inevitably get into trouble for that as well.

neuroelectron• 2 years ago

Such an interesting mystery. Who killed the rave? In Berlin especially, a very interesting subject.

I don't think we can ever really know. It's complex and multifaceted.

snakeyjake2• 2 years ago

It's probably the same mechanism that relegated the sock hop to a rare anachronism.

I don't have a subscription to ft.com.

Is it "tastes change" or a sexier and clickbaitier mound of bullshit?

lelandfe4• 2 years ago

https://archive.is/ul4Ui

Quoting the bits that take stabs at explaining it:

[Night-time consultancy co-founder] Leichsenring said venue owners were often closing their doors earlier to save on costs, as revenue from drink sales tended to drop off in the early morning hours.
More restrictive licensing rules after Covid-19 have also become an issue for clubs and promoters in cities across the globe
The increased popularity of daytime events and festivals is another factor
One executive in the entertainment industry said younger people were less inclined to go out raving until 6am as they were more health conscious and less frivolous with money than previous generations

snakeyjake2• 2 years ago

1 makes sense, somewhat.

2 sounds like a bunch of bullshit. WHICH more restrictive licensing rules? WHERE were the rules made, everywhere? There are no new rules where I live. HOW did these mythical rules impact things? WHAT the fuck is this guy talking about?

3 and 4 are: tastes change. People don't like sock hops anymore the same way they don't like raves anymore.

jrm4• 2 years ago

I remember the night when I knew clubbing (perhaps not raves per se) died.

Blackbird Ordinary, Miami. July 4th weekend.

Normal clubby kind of night. Then in comes a dude in bright ridiculous Uncle Sam gear, sparklers and all, making a spectacle of himself. All the phones come out.

Sigh. This is not the point of clubs/bars. You're mostly not supposed to be "seen" and certainly not like that.

quchen9• 2 years ago

Putting stickers onto phones, kicking out violators and fostering a culture around that does miracles to that kind of behavior. Once a majority enjoyes the moment and is very openly pissed off by any kind of filming we go back to being ourselves.

mixmastamyk10• 2 years ago

Do they put them on both sides of the phone, front and back?

tombert9• 2 years ago

I haven't been to a club in a long time, but I am quite confident that if there's a hell for me, it's being forced to be in a club+rave for eternity.

I've never done any kind of "party drug" [1], and I think that party drugs have to be a requirement for me to enjoy something like that (at least for someone as awkward as me). Repetitive music that's so loud it hurts, not being able to talk to people, close contact to strangers of questionable hygiene; it's hard for me to even imagine how anyone could enjoy it.

I suspect that there are a lot of people like me who are finally being honest with themselves and acknowledging that they don't actually enjoy the entire club scene. Obviously if you like it, don't let me take it away from you, but one of the best parts of reaching age 30 for me was that no one expects or wants me to go to a club with them now.

[1] The only "recreational drugs" I've ever done are alcohol and caffeine, and I haven't had alcohol in quite awhile.

Vampiero• 2 years ago

Yeah no wonder you don't like raves. You might be the first person who went to one without taking drugs. Same for clubs tbh. That kind of music is made by people on particular drugs and it's meant to be listened to by people on those same drugs. And dancing is just a way to shake off the stimulants.

tombert9• 2 years ago

I'm honestly just a coward; I have no idea what's actually in drugs that people buy on the street, and if I get sick, what exactly am I going to do? Sue them?

My dad is an outlier who managed to never have any issues thankfully, but there is a pretty strong history of addiction (mostly alcoholism, but other stuff too) on my dad's side of the family, and as such I've always treated drugs pretty cautiously.

jjulius3• 2 years ago

Howdy! I've been huge into electronic music since I was 12 (currently 38). Literally fell in love with the music for the sake of the music. Started going out at 18, didn't try drugs until my mid-20's. Enjoy drugs, sometimes I'll take them, but most of the time I'm either sober or just a bit stoned. But even the weed isn't a requirement for me. I can be out until 5AM, loving the whole experience, because the music is what I want.

In fact, I've been absolutely cranking this[1] crazy shit on repeat for weeks now and have been sober each time! The mixing, the flow, and the leftfield-weirdness of the whole thing hits my soul juuuuuuust right.

So, we're out there. Much of the people who regularly support the scene are also often sober, or don't regularly party hard. Check your preconceived notions and blanket generalizations at the door, please, and then try coming out to a show. We'd be happy to show you how things actually are. :)

[1]https://soundcloud.com/dkmntl/azu-tiwaline-at-lentekabinet-2...

financetechbro• 2 years ago

I think it’s a fair generalization but from my experience and my personal friend group I’d say 1/3 of ravers are on some serious mix of substances, 1/3 are keeping it more casual with some alcohol and cannabis, and the last 1/3 are as sober as can be. It really is a wide spectrum of folks who participate in raves

Aphataeros• 2 years ago

I actually enjoy the music without taking any drugs, but my default state is quite hyperactive. The loud bass, the energy of the crowd, the people feeling comfortable and enjoying themselves makes me feel energized and allows me to relax and dance in an enjoyable anonymity. To your point, when I was photographing concerts (&clubs/raves) regularly I did quickly realize I'm an outlier, and most people and performers were in fact consuming copious amounts of drugs... The least enjoyable events were those where everybody was escaping something - consuming drugs, over-drinking alcohol, destroying property – while the best events had a tight-knit community, proper security, pop-up drug labs ( https://drugfoundation.org.nz/articles/checkit-out ) and most importantly a mature audience.

watwut8• 2 years ago

This is downvoted, but as someone who liked actual dancing and did not took drugs except alcohol, it is quite on spot. Imo, lower use of stimulants among young and young crowd choosing events that start sooner are correlated.

And while we are at it, alcohol use will be correlated to dancing itself. It helps to loose inhibitions a lot of us just would not overcome without it. Same deal.

quchen9• 2 years ago

You're both wrong about raves not being great sober, and the latent prejudice against "drugs". Source, I went to many raves sober, and I work in psycare on them (psychiatric ambulance of sorts).

For a festival that's proper shit without drugs, try Oktoberfest here in Munich.

poincaredisk• 2 years ago

You might be the first person who went to one without taking drugs

I also don't line raves, but that makes me dislike them even more. So the point of "raves" is to get drugged while doing something you don't enjoy? Would you allow your kids to go to one?

Fortunately I think you're exaggregating or your experience is an outlier and people actually go there to have fun listening to loud music (while sometimes, indeed, using drugs).

deadbabe2• 2 years ago

Used to do at least a line of coke before raves but with the way fent is laced into everything these days, no more

tombert9• 2 years ago

Yeah, that's what terrifies me now especially. As far as I'm aware, "cutting" drugs with other drugs is hardly new, but the fact that fentanyl can be made so cheaply and easily and added to everything means that all this stuff is a hard-pass for me now.

Honestly, I'm in my mid-30's, I think that I'm too old to "start" doing this stuff. In a lot of cases (and this is still something I'm not 100% used to), people look to me as the "grown up" in the room, for better or worse.

edm0nd2• 2 years ago

Get some test kits or test strips.

You can get them for free and/or low cost, https://endoverdose.net

technothrasher• 2 years ago

people like me who are finally being honest with themselves and acknowledging that they don't actually enjoy the entire club scene.

What was it that was keeping you from being honest with yourself about that? I figured out pretty quickly that the whole club/dance/nightlife scene was just not compatible with my particular personality and haven't had any trouble simply avoiding it.

tombert9• 2 years ago

In regards to clubs for me personally, nothing, I was honest with myself almost immediately after I went the first time and have only gone a few times since then, both times making it clear to my friends that I really didn't enjoy it at all.

I have some friends who have stopped going, and while they won't come out an admit it, I think they were lying to themselves about enjoying it. I kind of got the impression that nothing about them "changed" to where they don't enjoy it anymore, just that they finally realized that they're not "missing something", and that they simply don't enjoy it.

Closest personal analog I can think of: It took me about ten years to realize that I don't actually enjoy living in NYC, and that I never enjoyed it. I had been trying to convince myself that it was fun, and I don't think I ever actually liked living here.

ETA:

I forgot to actually state my main point.

I think a lot of people want to like going to clubs, because their friends say they like going. I have some friends that I think actually enjoy it (though they always took a drug before going), and the few times I've gone I've tried my best to keep an open mind.

globular-toast• 2 years ago

I always thought the loud music, low lights and cramped quarters made it easier for awkward people. You can be totally anonymous if you want to. Just join in and feel the music and people will love you for it. You don't need to perform or meet any kind of expectation.

The thing about the drugs is it only heightens the experience. It's like salt on your food. The ingredients still have to be good. I found the drugs made it great but that's because I loved it anyway. I've never understood people who say "you have to be on drugs to enjoy it". The only drug like that is alcohol, the drug that numbs you enough to make deeply unpleasant situations tolerable.

For me the great thing about 30+ is not having to go to alcohol venues and do all the various pre-mating rituals. But I also don't go clubbing any more because I go to bed before midnight. Still love the music though (trance, as played by Oakenfold and Paul van Dyk).

tombert9• 2 years ago

The only appeal clubs ever really had to me was picking up women, which is irrelevant now since I'm married. Since I'm nothing terribly special in the looks department [1], and I really don't enjoy any kind of dancing, all I ever had going for me was being "kind of funny", which didn't really work in clubs.

I tend to make jokes when I'm nervous, so the awkwardness wasn't really a problem for doing that, but it wouldn't work if the jokes are inaudible.

It doesn't help that I have never really felt comfortably being physically close to strangers. I'll put up with it on the subway, but that's a purely utilitarian thing. I suspect alcohol would help with that, but I don't drink anymore (and never drank that much).

I certainly don't want to diminish your enjoyment for this, I'm just saying that every time I've gone to a club it's the worst moment of my life. I absolutely hate everything about it.

[1] This isn't meant as self-deprecating or fishing for compliments, I'm perfectly happy with my body. I just acknowledge that I was probably never going to be a male model.

commiepatrol• 2 years ago

You must be fun at parties, oh wait

spiralpolitik• 2 years ago

It's largely the same issue that every sector is experiencing. Everyone is trying for the same high end of the market crowd to extract as much prestige and profit as possible and pricing out the mass market.

Cinemas and concerts are in the same boats.

With the cost of essentials through the roof spending $$$ for a night out is now a periodic luxury rather than every Saturday night.

ta988• 2 years ago

I live in a big US city. There are raves almost every week-end (like the real kind amateur stuff not the money grubbing ones). Sure they are not announced on RA and you need to know people but it is still alive and well. They are mostly in old abandonned industrial places and often literally underground.

mjsir911• 2 years ago

NPR did a recent expose about a local renegade spot & the shows it supports in my scene:

https://www.kuow.org/stories/under-the-bridge-a-portrait-of-...

With mixed results, it kind of burned the spot by virtue of being talked about in too wide an audience but I think it's also important to make it known to the mainstream that this kind of stuff is happening.

All that's needed to make a rave happen is music & speakers, scale and quality is all configurable. Humans will always find spaces to congregate: whether it's their own houses, local parks, abandoned warehouses, industrial districts, or deep in the woods. I hope we're not losing our drive to be around eachother and dance, it's been such a integral part of my life story (as a fairly young person!) and has let me find my people.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF4• 2 years ago

Humans will always find spaces to congregate ... I hope we're not losing our drive to be around each other and dance, it's been such a integral part of my life story (as a fairly young person!) and has let me find my people.

I'm gonna dump a little bit with the blind hope that someone can explain what I'm feeling. Not meaning to disrespect you mjsir, but this thread just has the right context:

I'm in my 30s and I have never danced, I don't dance, I think of myself as not having the brain lobe for dancing. I've done choreographed dancing like tap dancing and pole dancing, but I don't dance dance. I don't want to dance, but people keep saying it's essential to the human experience. So I would prefer either dancing or knowing for sure that I don't need it, over my current state of anxious uncertainty.

I don't find places to congregate, I don't know if I've found my people at all, and I feel like my life story is incomplete when I come to these threads on the nerd computer-touching website and see people say that raves are so important. I'm a nerd's nerd, one of my fondest memories is staying up all night alone in my room playing with threads and sockets in Java as a teen. I've had 3 romantic partners, 1 asked me out, 2 I met on a dating site. I do not approach people in real life. I barely live in real life.

This feeling that I'm missing out on something and unsure if I want it, peaked earlier this year when I dated a girl who was just a hundred times cooler than me. A chill go-with-the-flow hippie literal surfer type. When I think about her I have to wonder what the fuck is wrong with me. She did not stick around, and I've been left with the sense that I'm living my entire life wrong.

Can anyone relate?

Dibes• 2 years ago

I would highly recommend talking this through with a therapist! I don't think anyone on the internet has the time/understanding/or context to tell you either way in any satisfying manner that would settle your confusion. It is never too late to introspect and learn about who you are as a person, and a therapist is a great sounding board at the very minimum.

willseth• 2 years ago

There’s nothing wrong with you if you’re not into dancing. It’s 100% okay to be introverted and happy. Many people are. The only thing I would say is it might be worth the effort to try to get out and find some of your people, whoever they are. Feeling uncomfortable doing things like that is also totally normal, and imo sometimes feeling uncomfortable is an essential part of the human experience. I’m fairly extroverted and still feel awkward, anxious, or uncomfortable pretty regularly.

tredre3• 2 years ago

Can anyone relate?

I can relate with everything you have said and my life experience seems to be similar to yours. When I was younger in the 90s I forced myself to go clubbing a few times. I hated everything about it, frankly. Even so, I can't help but feel like I'm missing out on important life experiences when I read comments here.

But I think it's important to keep in mind that threads like these suffer from selection bias because, objectively speaking, most people in real life do not go clubbing or raving in their adulthood...

dnquark• 2 years ago

Yes, but I'll just speak to the part about dancing: it is true that (a) many people find it fun and rewarding and (b) many people don't find it easy and/or natural a priori. However, given the right style, music, AND a few (or possibly many) months of deliberate practice to make it "click" in your brain, many people could move from category (b) to (a). Searching through this parameter space requires time and effort. This is a thread about EDM, and I spent some time trying to like EDM because it was cool, until I realized that it's not for me, and I have zero inclination to dance to it unless I'm on MDMA. On the other hand, swing, salsa, bachata ended up being absolutely my jam -- after months of deliberate practice, as none of these musical styles were super familiar to me at the outset.

For a lot folks, partnered dance forms are nothing short of life changing, and they tend to appeal to analytical introverts; if you haven't tried already, go sign up for your local lindy hop lessons, and keep your expectations low. There's no downside, at the very least you'll get some exercise.

randomopining6• 2 years ago

Tons of people just go and imbibe in various things and just sway to the music or the beat. It really is a blank slate to make it what you want, and i think that's why its popular - many types of people all go to them for many different reasons.

jakefromstatecs• 2 years ago

Was a favorite spot of mine. A shame that the NPR coverage burned it.

At least we still have plenty of forest areas to renegade in.

indrora• 2 years ago

It was burned years ago.

Give it two years or so to fade. There’s just not enough low cost big spaces to hold shit in.

_spduchamp• 2 years ago

Just putting this out there for those who may be interested. If you are into making electronic music and want to get started performing, check out the EMOM movement. https://electronicmusicopenmic.com/how-to-start-your-own-emo...

I've been participating in Toronto version (TEMOM) and it's developed into a wonderful community.

qprofyeh• 2 years ago

Music volume these days is too loud for me.

jppope• 2 years ago

yea, yeah, everything sucks now... we know.

highwayman47• 2 years ago

COVID + Middle Class Poverty

jedberg• 2 years ago

I'm curious where they got their data (or I should say I'm suspicious of their analysis). My cousin is a raver and she sends me Snaps of the events all the time. They're just as crowded as ever and happening just as often as a decade ago.

There was obviously a pause during COVID and a slow ramp after, but it's been back to normal for about 1.5 years now.

saberience6• 2 years ago

I totally doubt this is true personally. I started raving myself in university in 2002 and see more raves happening now and have more friends who are ravers than back then...

I also see more electronic artists playing gigs all over the world, more people getting into DJ'ing or electronic music production, and there are more EDM artists getting hugely popular in the mainstream, see acts like Fred Again.

n4r9• 2 years ago

"Rave" has become quite a vague umbrella term. Perhaps the closest modern equivalent (in Europe at least) are free parties: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_party#List_of_free_partie... .

A group of sound systems put the word out that they're going to get together illictly in a field in some remote location. There's a number that attendees ring to get the location on the (first) night. It carries on all weekend or until the police convince everyone to leave.

mellosouls• 2 years ago

Tangential discussion from a month ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42352825

Nightclub stickers over smartphone rule divides the dancefloor (91 comments)

saberience6• 2 years ago

I find it really hard to believe this and am questioning the data.

I raved back in the early 2000s and I still rave now and the popularity is absolutely booming in a way I've never seen before and in more parts of the world.

15 years ago there was zero electronic music events in Dubai, now there are huge electronic music festivals there and it's clear a ton of people at those events are taking "something" that isn't just booze. Even Saudi has had its first big EDM festivals, albeit I think they were no alcohol allowed.

EDM artists are more popular than ever and more and more of my friends are getting into EDM and going to EDM festivals like Tomorrowland, Mysteryland, ADE, etc.

brotchie• 2 years ago

I feel like they're conflating "rave" with "clubbing."

Friday, Saturday club attendance has been dropping across the world, and many electronic music focused club venues have shut down (at least in Australia and the UK).

My word association of "rave" is "festival" though. Festivals feel like they're still booming, or at least not in dramatic decline.

From a small personal sampling: Coachella, Portola, Outside Lands, Proper, Lightning in a Bottle, festivals are still going strong. For some (Coachella, Lightning in a Bottle) attendance felt like it dropped 2023 -> 2024, but perhaps 10-20%, and this is likely economically correlated (inflation, etc). Late 2024- festivals (Portola, Proper) were packed.

itake• 2 years ago

My word association of "rave" is "festival" though.

hehe, my definition of a rave is a temporary venue where at least 2 people have asked if you need help finding Molly.

There is a bisect of "festival" goers and "ravers", but many ravers are priced out of festivals, but may attend raves weekly or monthly.

Both of these imho, are different than your traditional licensed club that primarily serves alcohol and is 21+ exclusive.

ninetyninenine• 2 years ago

The UAE is a microcosm and not representative of general trends imo.

tayo422• 2 years ago

I believe that, 15 years ago was peak deadmau5, skrillex, dubstep explosion, EDC expanding everywhere. No way globally its more popular now then it was in the 2010s

Spivak3• 2 years ago

I mean music festivals in the US are booming as well. EDC attendance more than doubled last year.

seydor3• 2 years ago

Dubai is a little behind

barnabee2• 2 years ago

Can an event that calls itself EDM be a rave?

I sure hope not

alexalx666• 2 years ago

It's going strong in Berlin, no one can kill raves, ppl can organize raves with friends outside :)

rramon• 2 years ago

There are a lot more cool Techno festivals going on though, e.g: https://youtu.be/OCyJNS8frn8

A clubbing lifestyle where you're out every weekend isn't healthy, but festivals on weekends every other month are doable. Society seems much more health aware these days due to social media and the web in general.

MrJagil• 2 years ago

wow, what a set. thank you.

virtualritz• 2 years ago

There are many factors not mentioned in the article. In Berlin we simply talk about before and after the pandemic.

Prices have gone up like crazy after; this includes rent. Cheap airlines like Ryanair & Easyjet have canceled many flights to Berlin in the last year.

I can see this as I rent out my living room on Airbnb part time and 2024 was the lowest no. of bookings since I started, almost a decade ago (2022 was a brief surge as everyone went traveling 'again' but that was it).

Hotel prices are also crazy (I got a lot of guests in 2023 that choose a high-end Airbnb over a four star hotel for the first time because the latter was now outside their budget in my area).

Then we have the phenomenon of restaurants closing early. It was easy to get dinner at 11pm at a good restaurant in my neighborhood (central Berlin). Most such places would close at midnight/1am. Now the latest is 9pm with most places closing at 10pm.

There is a street next to mine that is full of restaurants and bars. It used to be lively until 1:30am, even during the week. Before the pandemic. Now it's dead and feels like a small town now around 10:30pm.

Talking to several patrons there, this is what happened: during the pandemic all service staff found other jobs. Places were closed because they had to (lock-downs).

At the same time there was turnover of tenants in the neighborhood. People fled the cities because remote work allowed them.

The empty flats got new tenants and these people moved in under the assumption their street would keep the same noise levels. Ofc the landlords, desperate to fill their emptying flats during the lock-downs, would not tell them of any caveats in this regard.

When the lock-downs ended restaurants initially couldn't open longer than 10pm anyway because they couldn't find enough staff. People had found other work and didn't return to these jobs.

When staffing rebounded and they tried to open longer, two things got in the way:

1. Customers had gotten used to eat early (we're talking two years here from end of the lock-downs to the staffing situation in the gastronomy 'kinda' normalizing).

2. The new tenants in the flats in a street with restaurants had lived for 2+ years under the assumption their street was quiet from 10:30pm. They called the police and got injunctions for noise nuisance etc. TL;DR it was legally not possible any more to open longer for these restaurants, all of a sudden.

As a social dancer (tango) I noticed the same things mentioned re. the clubs. Prices have gone up, as a result less well-off people simply can't afford going dancing more than once a week. Most of my friends used to go 2--3 times a week. I still do but I work in tech and so does my partner and we don't have kids or any mortgage to pay off. We're in the 1%.

To get you an idea: the average venue for social dancing charged 7 EUR during the week, in 2019.

It's was 10 EUR when places reopened after the pandemic in late 2021 (i.e. 43% more).

And this year some venues have raised prices to 10--13 EUR as of 1st of January. So we're talking a 43%--86% price increase for admission and drinks went along in pricing.

It's simply not affordable. As a result, the average age in the Berlin tango scene went from 30 to 50 in just five years. It's mostly old(er) people with very few younger ones that work in well paying jobs (lots of techies) or have other sources of wealth.

And because more older people make up the majority of the audience, venues close much earlier. It was easy to go dancing until 1--2am during the week and 4--5am on weekends. Now it's midnight during the week and 2--3am max on weekends.

And because of the issue with airlines and hotel/Airbnb prices we also have less social dance tourists. Berlin used to be a top destination for social dancers from abroad to come visit but its noticeable less in 2023/2024 than before the pandemic.

croisillon• 2 years ago

i know it's confusing but in English "patron" means paying customer

some_random2• 2 years ago

Millenials are getting too old while Gen Z is too risk adverse and was generally shocked out of the habit of going out by the pandemic.

brink• 2 years ago

Another factor is why waste the effort going to get a dopamine rush by going out when you have dopamine in your pocket?

We're too overstimulated and numb to bother leaving the house. Why bother playing a game when you can watch someone play it for you on Youtube with less effort?

tonymet• 2 years ago

It's very difficult to operate a moderate-sized event secretly. Raves used to be promoted locally (at record & clothing shops) , and then shared among friends. The venue was secret right up to the event, because you first had to drive to a number of secret waypoints that were revealed by phone. The final location was often hidden in the wilderness or at a condemned (or squatted) building.

Accidental and deliberate surveillance is so common and cheap that this is no longer viable.

jwblackwell• 2 years ago

Above & Beyond's label has a huge following. I have been to many events around the world. They do a big gathering each year e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEqySVgNkIA

timbre1234• 2 years ago

What's missing is GenZ isn't into it. The kids are the ones that go out all the time and they drive a lot of the revenue that big clubs need to stay alive. I'm not really sure what GenZ is into instead -- would've been cool if this article had tried asking them.

UncleOxidant2• 2 years ago

I think we could say that covid killed a lot of these things. GenZ just happened to be coming of age during the pandemic years and thus prefers to stay home as they see that as normative.

test6554• 2 years ago

We may very well see a future judgy christian nationalist generation of youngsters who frown at grandma and grandpa millennial's tattoos and our nasty sexually explicit oldies music.

Nasreddin_Hodja• 2 years ago

I'm not really sure what GenZ is into instead

Things like this maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuddle_party

As for modern electronic music, it became very dumb compared to oldschool techno of 90s, who even listens to that crap nowadays? Why someone would pay for loud noise?

tayo422• 2 years ago

Why isnt the cause just trends, music and fads changing? EDM and raves have had a big moment early 2010s then every thing kind of evolved, there must be new music for the new generation.

Like why aren't we listening to guitar solos, or 80s metal bands or grunge anymore? No one killed it

Pigalowda• 2 years ago

The kids don’t party and fuck like we used to? I guess we’re old.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF4• 2 years ago

Back in my day we had ASL on IRC and that was good enough for us

kristopolous• 2 years ago

16/f/ca was the best 10 years of my life.

denysvitali• 2 years ago

There's a similar documentary (from 7 years ago, by Annie Mac - BBC) about the UK clubs closures https://youtu.be/n9zjNKQ-snI

Worth a watch!

fizx• 2 years ago

Burning Man's been dying slowly since about 2018, so pre-Covid. When I say dying, I don't mean "getting mainstream & EDMified" like all the old Burners have complained about since forever. I mean, the mainstream has stopped taking interest, and increasing portions of the tickets are getting taken by internationals because its passé in the USA, but still on some people's travel bucket lists. This year was the first year in a while with extra tickets available, but the writing has been on the wall for a while.

I'm sure raving will come back in 20 years like most fashion.

Spivak3• 2 years ago

I wouldn't use Burning Man as a metric for the scene overall because among ravers Burning Man is considered to be one of the worst festivals.

quchen9• 2 years ago

How so? I saw a few vids about EDC and quite frankly it looked worse than tomorrowland (like, reminds me of mobile games patterns), quite the feat. Burning Man has a reputation, and it's definitely not a sharing economy to get there. I wouldn't fly half the globe to get there, I think it would be quite interesting though.

quchen9• 2 years ago

It's how all cool underground things go. Small groups build something new and awesome, new people come and join, the culture shifts, and at some point money is made, and the culture drifts off into a business. Very few places resist this, very few stay cool despite. The rave scene around Berlin is quite alright, but we learned to protect our safe spaces, and many will not mention details online anymore.

JansjoFromIkea• 2 years ago

Can't see the article but I imagine a big part of it is a combo of clubs continually being booted to new locations in cities to the point you kind of have to get tickets in advance for one place or run the risk of going there, being turned away and having absolutely nothing else to do in the area. To battle this there's loads of venues that seem to almost exclusively do shows that end near midnight and I've never been to one that wasn't completely devoid of atmosphere (hard to enjoy the music when the people next to you are talking at length about some work deadline they have).

throwaway019254• 2 years ago

I realized that it's impossible to find clubs that serve alcohol till morning. The laws are more strict nowadays.

Most of the raves I attend now are on indigenous lands, it's definitely not mainstream, and I can party till morning.

marxisttemp• 2 years ago

Plenty of great raves still around. I don’t think the Financial Times is a great resource on free of charge illegal underground parties?

hnpolicestate• 2 years ago

The smartphone imo.

heraldgeezer• 2 years ago

I mostly watch 90s and 00s movies and TV shows because you know why. Same here. All new things are shit. Could House be aired today?

endofreach• 2 years ago

Thanks tiktok.

seydor3• 2 years ago

People travel instead

readingnews• 2 years ago

These guys killed it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YS_7U0mDgA

narag• 2 years ago

For a long time I wondered why nightlife had cooled down so much. Then I realized that natality had sharply declined. Not evenly distributed, but around me it's pretty much the main cause. Every scene is just much less crowded.

jimt1234• 2 years ago

rave != club

IMHO, "raves" are, or were, underground, unsanctioned, and generally illegal, whereas "clubs" are typically licensed and legal - in other words, expensive and lame. I went to raves back in the early-90s, and I can tell you, it was nothing like dance clubs of the last 10 years.

zuminator• 2 years ago

One more guess: Part of the reason why people would go late-night dancing was for hookups. Nowadays, people meet partners via dating apps, so the prospect of a random encounter in a dark club is less appealing.

permo-w3• 2 years ago

this sounds like a headline from Plague Inc

nonrandomstring• 2 years ago

UK had criminal justice bill [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Justice_and_Public_Or...

UniverseHacker2• 2 years ago

The author doesn't even seem to know what a rave is, most likely they aren't in decline at all. They're talking about formal, permanent dance clubs shutting down for economic reasons. Raves are mostly an underground - often illegal or questionably legal - impromptu one off event, organized through word of mouth and social media on an invite only basis. There is almost no way to get statistics on them because they are intentionally stealth.

In my younger years, I was active in the wearhouse and desert rave scene, and it was a lot of fun. Typically it would just be an empty wearhouse in a run down industrial district, or simply an empty lot far out in the desert far from any homes.

Different rave scenes had different groups of people- some were quite out of control and doing very dangerous things, others were much more organized and responsible. Although I haven't been in many years, I am certain the more organized and responsible ones with a strong culture of vetting who is invited, and having responsible sober regulars that are able to help those more inexperienced are still going strong, and I still get invites to them.

There is nothing like dancing all night until sunrise under the stars on a warm summer desert night... to excellent electronic music made/performed live by the artists. Usually people are very friendly, warm and welcoming- aided by certain phenylethylamine compounds no doubt.

pier25• 2 years ago

This exactly. I was a dj and organized raves back in my 20s.

jimnotgym• 2 years ago

I'm guessing your mention of desert raves places you in a different country to the author?

In the UK, where I believe the word originates when applied to late night electronic music events in the mid 80s, the term meant an often unauthorised event in a field or industrial site.

Perhaps it was the noise menace, or perhaps people dancing in a field fuelled by MDMA caused a big deal in alcohol duty revenue for the government, but raves became highly regulated with the 1994 Criminal Justice and Public Order Act. Illegal raves were clamped down on by police with a fierce intensity. This essentially pushed the music back into clubs, where people could be taxed more easily. This ended the original race scene. By the late 90s the term was anachronistic in the UK. In the 2010s certain dance subcultures, drum and bass springs to mind, started becoming known as raves again, but these were anything from club nights to outdoor festivals. Quite unlike the earlier usage

It appears that your usage mirrors the UK rave scene from the late 80s to early 90s that died out, and the author has a broader usage that is in use today in the UK.

UniverseHacker2• 2 years ago

That seems like important context that should have been in the article given they are talking globally.

I'm on the USA west coast, and we still have warehouse and outdoor raves here, and people wouldn't use the term rave to refer to a permanent dance club. Many are illegal, and the police do shut them down sometimes, but mostly just tell people to go home. I've also seen the police show up and not shut it down.

byearthithatius• 2 years ago

As someone from the U.S his language is perfectly correct for here. Everyone from the U.S thinks of Raves in the way he described.

scarecrowbob• 2 years ago

Yeah, it's always odd how "the number of raves happening in the world" seems tied to "how connected am I to a group of people who want to push the boundaries of a party".

Sometimes raves are happening every 3 days locally to me, sometimes the world has stopped all together. Very odd and polite that the world can tell when I am not interested in that level of (to be clear, often enjoyable) debauchery.

I presume that they will start up again once I get my warehouse finished on my off-grid property in the desert...

veunes3• 2 years ago

It seems to me that a lot depends on the country where the experience in this area was gained. The development of rave culture depends on cultural aspects of a country you are live in in many ways (it seems to me).

t55• 2 years ago

I really like day-time raves

polyterative• 2 years ago

my dumb italian government literally made them illegal. that's what

Funes-• 2 years ago

Social media killed (real) social life.

hsuduebc2• 2 years ago

https://archive.is/ul4Ui

Spooky23• 2 years ago

Anything that relies on booze is dying. It’s too expensive.

throwaway_952833• 2 years ago

Come to the southern cone of south america (brazil, paraguay, argentina), late night dance is alive and well. Colombia too to a lesser degree.

jmdelatorre• 2 years ago

in some places in Chile its gone down though https://www.emol.com/noticias/Economia/2025/01/03/1153139/lo...

throwaway_952833• 2 years ago

Chile is awful (Santiago specifically). Sorry if you are from there. High prices, high crime, full of feminists, everything closes early. Might as well move back to the west.

peterarmstrong• 2 years ago

phalates

maCDzP• 2 years ago

Any tips if someone want to join in the Nordics?

sydbarrett742• 2 years ago

GenZers are indulging in drugs at much lower rates than previous generations. That includes alcohol.

codexb• 2 years ago

It's not just raves, it's pretty much all "nightclub" type bars. The common nightclub has been replaced by expensive, high-end, bottle-service only type clubs.

FrustratedMonky• 2 years ago

Maybe cell phone cameras killed the rave.

Nobody wants pics of them dancing like a spastic monkey

quchen9• 2 years ago

I want to dance like that though, so I don't go to places without a no picture policy (important: with stickers) anymore.

_joel• 2 years ago

We've got kids and prefer to rave during the day now, back home for a sensible time ;0

aiv1• 2 years ago

Miami Beach is still partying at night, isn't it?

fullspectrumdev• 2 years ago

Gentrification of areas with music venues is a notable factor. It’s like a cycle. Very noticeable in London.

Place is cheap and kind of a shithole so it’s possible to open cool bars and late night music venues. People move there because it’s now a cool place. Prices go up. People complain about the noise from the venues. Venues close and are replaced with sterile overpriced crap. Place is now boring and expensive. See: Shoreditch as a fine example.

fitsumbelay• 2 years ago

This article is paywalled for me and I'm thankful because the title alone has the scent of bait, ie. the post might be about a narrow case like large venue/big name dj events rather than dance clubs in general

If there is a 'decline' it's likely because there's been a 20 year surge in DJ events -- like some clubs either going 50/50 between live performance events and dj dance nights or out right choosing DJ nights over live performance because it's cheaper (no sound check, no load-in/load-out, fewer drink comps for individuals and plus-ones ....) -- and the era is cycling down. But it hardly means nightclubbing or dance clubs are done for. Even if the activity were in decline, mobile phones would not be the cause. People go out even when their city is being bombed

jaarse• 2 years ago

I don't believe this is specific to Raves, but Bars & Nightclubs in general.

Younger people don't seem to be going to these places nearly as much as generations past. I think a lot of this drop off can be attributed to Social Media & Tinder.

You don't need to go out to see your friends or find a date. So why bother? It's easier and cheaper to stay home.

ioseph• 2 years ago

Cheaper being a big one. Here in Australia student allowance/minimum wage has hardly increased while everything else has gotten far more expensive, young people simply can't afford to drink out/attend events.

There was also a intensive effort to kill nightclubs with lockout laws

aylmao2• 2 years ago

Also worth noting, and the article briefly alludes to this; college costs are higher, the difference between jobs that pay well and those that don't is wider, and everyone is very aware of all this. My guess is young people today are possibly less laissez-faire than in the past. People are worrying about their future earlier.

devrob4• 2 years ago

I think there's a lot of nuance here. I teach DJing (house/techno mostly) and there's never been more interest in electronic music & DJing. Folks who thought I was a bit out there in high school for liking electronic & dance music, have recently all now become more interested in DJing and raving. The DJ today is continuing to grow into the modern rock-star (albeit, in terms of real $ of music money, it's no where close).

Moreover, as several commenters have pointed out there has been a big growth in festivals and awareness. Lots of people talk to me about "house music" now, whereas before it was a relatively "underground" thing.

Now, I think there's a question about whether the scale of such events have maintained the same cultural ethos as the early rave days, and that, though I'm not old enough to have participated, is likely a categorical no. There's a greater focus on 'documenting' experiences at these events rather than living it. Here's a clip of an rising group called Kienemusik [tik tok link](https://www.tiktok.com/@as.anca/video/7359750430345186593?q=...), where you can see there's more video taping than dancing. I would venture to say, we are so filled with wonder sometimes that we forget that part of experiencing awe is letting go of ego and just experiencing.

bonestamp22• 2 years ago

I know what you mean, and I wish I kept at it. I DJ'd a couple raves back then but it was something that any of my friends were into so I naturally fell out of it even though I loved it so much. I later got back into it briefly and made a few house and trance tracks when computer DAWs became popular.

There was a sense of freedom and optimism on the dance floor that I've never found anywhere else. I made songs like the songs that I most liked to dance to. Most of it came from Europe back then, but I wish I followed my heart, or at least spent half my time following my heart.

I feel bad for the kids in the video. In my day, and maybe yours, it would have been very unusual to see a cellphone in the club or at a rave. My kids schools don't allow screens and they go away for a couple weeks each summer to a camp that doesn't allow screens. They tell me that they really enjoy it after a couple of days, and I think it gives them a chance to feel the way we did as kids... back then there wasn't a movement of people trying to live more in the moment because everybody lived in the moment all the time.

devrob4• 2 years ago

The freedom and optimism is always rooted to the communal and ritual release in dance, the freedom to be as you are, or dance as you are. This gets harder and harder when there is fear of "documentation', if one can't "dance right" or "doesn't fit in".

Don't beat yourself up too hard though, you can always pickup a DJ controller and start again :)

And too: the scene has radically shifted, so being a promoter is a large part of the work. It's kind of like eSports in a way.

vips7L• 2 years ago

Phoneless events are out there. This Never Happened bans phones from every event. I just went to Proper NYE which wasn’t a TNH event but had Lane 8 (label owner) on main stage and there was significantly less phones than other artists.

devrob4• 2 years ago

Indeed, I've written about this a little bit [1], they are growing in popularity due to a number of factors, one of which being, living in the moment. DVS1 has spoken with great eloquence on this subject as well [2]. These policies are the norm in Berlin places like Tresor. The industry culture has been really saturated by social media, live sets and destination sets [3], so many events are differentiating themselves by taking an different approach. It was a cool strategy when it started with Be At TV (RIP), (old) Boiler Room & (maybe) BBC R1 but it's lost its novelty at times I feel.

[1] https://www.instagram.com/p/DDkjBJhP1Sh/?utm_source=ig_web_c... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISoPHerYsn4&t=1181s [3] Think Cerce, Boilerroom

Kiboneu2• 2 years ago

The party ends. Dancers look at each other and feel a connection, exhausted or refreshed. Why is there a connection between people on the dance floor?

Detroit, Berlin were spaces in which electronic music accelerated, reflecting an intent to go further into the future or outwards into space, including cyberspace, to escape the banality of the immediate environment outside the dance floor. A language develops to collectively approach a future previously experienced as private fantasy.

The DJ changes discs to keep the party going, deeply listening to the dancers' body movements as much as the music, dissolving, modulating the energy of the music in cybernetic flow. That's the mix. Waves of intensity, vastness, then resting down on the ground collectively staring at the sky, or recordings of Space Night projected on the ceiling... at this point, are we still strangers when we actually experience awe of an optimistic future?

The DJ can't foster this kind of environment when the ego is in the way, can't be a "rock star" or flashy. The DJ has to listen to make a humanistic virtual space that overrides the algorithmic dopamine-driven virtual space stored in everyone's pocket. It's possible. You have to want it for yourself. Otherwise... we drown in facades and cellphone pictures.

devrob4• 2 years ago

Oof - beautiful writing.

That sounds like it was out of Last Night A DJ Saved My Life [1]!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Night_a_DJ_Saved_My_Life_...

bastardoperator• 2 years ago

Greed, aka promoters, killed the rave scene when they started charging absurd prices and pivoting to festivals where they could command 100's of dollars for entry.

f4kt0r• 2 years ago

Shrek killed the raves

cindycindy• 2 years ago

I would be curious to compare Google search statistics of 'shrek' vs 'raves' over time. Obviously, causation can't be established but maybe correlation can be.

katamari-damacy• 2 years ago

Covid

082349872349872• 2 years ago

Will no one blame the banjolele? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT2iP5Si-Ho

sneak2• 2 years ago

Joe Biden did. He as a senator introduced the RAVE Act, which didn’t pass, but got built into a later bill that did, as a rider.

This made promoters criminally liable for drug offenses committed by people unrelated to them at their events. Then, it was selectively enforced against club drugs at electronic events and not cocaine at rock shows, and boom, no more raves in the US.

anigbrowl4• 2 years ago

Oversimplistic but basically correct.

bawolff• 2 years ago

I don't know what the big mystery is. Trends come and go, activities wax and wane in popularity.

Raves aren't special here.

Gene5ive• 2 years ago

I don't know but In Portland there's a ton of them, the venues are great, and in the summer we go do it in the forest. And now that the RA app has it's shit together, I no longer have to get on Instagram to find out about stuff.

anigbrowl4• 2 years ago

It's not really surprising, but the article seems to conflate raves with nightclubs, with numerous remarks about the cost of being out at a club all night and paying for things like expensive bottle service.

Raves are not clubs, and historically have never done that well in club environments. People who are really into staying up all night dancing to techno music aren't buying expensive alcoholic drinks, they're buying cheap water to stay hydrated. Many (though by no means all) take drugs, but generally that means one dose of a drug like MDMA at the beginning of the evening. Psychedelic drugs like LSD are also associated with the rave scene but are less compatible with a nightclub environment (bars, security, overgrown disco lights). People are more likely to consume psychedelics at an outdoor party or a warehouse space.

In my view what has killed raves was the declining availability of cheap accessible commercial spaces, police/administrative hostility to informal economic activity, and overcommercialization, which has tended to select for the shittiest music/DJs.

prettyblocks• 2 years ago

Not to mention cell phones everywhere.

mitemte2• 2 years ago

One thing I like about Berlin is that some clubs explicitly forbid photos. Staff place stickers on the front and back cameras when you enter. Anyone spotted taking photos is kicked out.

c16• 2 years ago

It really depends on the club and the culture. In big clubs and venues, it’s more a performance now and statement than it is a club (think Printworks/Afterlife visuals) so everyone is on their phones.

My experience of small intimate clubs in Europe is that people tell each other off for pulling out phones, or there’s just no light in the room - so there’s nothing to photograph. People are there for a good time. If you want a good experience, go for small lesser known artists in small venues. You’ll have fewer people there to record the night.

nox1012• 2 years ago

what is the definition of a rave at this point? Large crowds of people dancing in or outdoors to techno music is still a HUGE thing. There's video of tons of them on youtube. If often put them on while working. Is it only a rave if it's illegal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv33bb-C_bo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wy2WYqD2Rs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEacozH2uXs

There's also huge EDM and other types of events (so I guess not techno but the vibe seems related, at least to me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7O-7rF0Hqk

brandall102• 2 years ago

As someone in the culture 20-30 years ago, it was always something that was underground... not promoted in a traditional sense, and hosted in unpermitted spaces. Usually you wouldn't know until the day of the event where the location actually was.

Much of the time it would be in industrial areas that were pretty deserted and dark at night, far away from any life that would complain about the noise that would go on until at lease sunrise. If outdoors it might be out in the woods, on the edge of an Indian reservation, in the desert, etc. Often there was a gritty sense of danger and some really odd characters you would meet, certainly not helped by the substances they might be on.

What you linked is what I'd call outdoor parties/festivals. Maybe folks today call them raves, but these things existed back then and we certainly didn't.

adzm• 2 years ago

No need to listen to the gatekeepers. Rave is a verb. Raves are where people rave!

ryan_lane• 2 years ago

Using crackhouse laws to target rave promoters killed raves in the US: https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94397&page=1 The RAVE act that followed formalized the gray area use of those earlier crackhouse laws.

All of the rest of what you're saying killed raves is a result of this crackdown.

phin313• 2 years ago

Ding ding. This and a lot of the sensation news pieces that came out a few years before, across the nation, that attracted more people for the wrong reasons that prompted things like challenging the local authorities and resulted in the RAVEact

bcrl3• 2 years ago

In Toronto the decline of the scene in the late '90s was accelerated significantly when the city clamped down on promotors by restricting them from renting venues on city owned property. This was after gradually requiring EMTs and increased security at events after Allen Ho died in 1999. There was a huge protest at city hall, but that had no impact on the course of things. Combined with the recession and then SARS in 2003, people effectively stopped going out to larger events, although people getting older with more obligations was certainly a contributing factor as well. However, there are still family friendly events held at Cherry Beach in the summer with people from the scene back then going on every year.

stefs• 2 years ago

"although people getting older with more obligations was certainly a contributing factor as well"

there's always the next generation of young people. the question is: why aren't they as interested in raves than the generations before them?

colinwilyb2• 2 years ago

The protest/rally at Toronto City Hall in 2000 was a one-of-a-kind event which united ravers across the city. Organizers set up a mobile stage with sound and lights, had DJ lineup, speeches by public figures (including Olivia Chow), and 10k+ ravers.

Party People Documentary: Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUqlAUh4_3c

Party People Documentary: Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQZAwIHhOnc

phowat• 2 years ago

100% agree. The article does not seem to be written by someonene who is particularly interested in this subject. The fact that it starts talking about what is IMO the most overrated scene ever, Berlin, says a lot.

ahartmetz2• 2 years ago

The overrated clubs in Berlin are overrated, but there are also all the other clubs that no NY Times ever writes about. There are (still) many of them and they are good.

throwbadubadu3• 2 years ago

The Berlin scene is partly very touristy, what is also good for the city (and sad to let the clubs go), but please also don't underrate it - there are still so many clubs, you just need to find your more undergroundy experience ;) As a tourist, of course, you are also part of the problem, but also well welcome. Every "hype" is not true and show quickly symptoms, and everything was always better back in time, but there is still a lot of reason for Berlin ;)

benno781• 2 years ago

There was an article in the Guardian recently about a rave reunion event in the UK - I think it would agree with many of your reasons about what killed them: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/dec/10/sanctuary-club...

matt3210• 2 years ago

hostility to informal economic activity

America in a nutshell…

vincnetas• 2 years ago

aka : rave does not scale. It's personal experience, not commercial activity and usually fuelled by youth enthusiasm.

HellDunkel3• 2 years ago

I think you are missing something. Clubs have always been the „mothers“ of raves. This has been the case since the only days of chicago warehouse parties up until what is now the case in berlin. Once the clubs go away, the off location parties will disappear next.

ashoeafoot• 2 years ago

all it takes is a quarry and a sound system .

coldtea4• 2 years ago

I think you are missing something. Clubs have always been the „mothers“ of raves

This is rewriting history. Raves was a british thing, and it was in the open, not in clubs.

Chicago warehouse parties preceded raves and are important for electronic dance music history, but are not raves.

randomfounder4• 2 years ago

In California at least, I think ravers hate clubs more than anyone. They’re expensive, inconvenient, and the impression is that they’re for superficial people with more money than sense. Raves are much cheaper ($100 to a see drunk rapper show up 45 min late, or $20 for 6 hours of techno on a better soundsytem), more convenient (more parking, reentry, no lines, chill security), and egalitarian (no VIPs, and acting like one is frowned upon).

The crowd that goes to clubs, well at least mainstream clubs you’d find on Google Maps, seems to have almost no overlap with the crowd that goes to raves. It’s common to try clubbing for a bit in college to see what the hype’s about, then “graduate” to raves.

secretsatan• 2 years ago

I think there is some overlap, there are some nightclubs that are much more orientated to the cheap scene, I know if I walk into a club with large areas dedicated to bottle service tables, I'm not going to have a fun time and the people will be much more obnoxious.

But there's some excellent venues here in Switzerland, and I think many are helped with arts funding and/or run as artist collectives and non profits.

rajnathani• 2 years ago

So true:

People who are really into staying up all night dancing to techno music aren't buying expensive alcoholic drinks, they're buying cheap water to stay hydrated. Many (though by no means all) take drugs, but generally that means one dose of a drug like MDMA at the beginning of the evening.

There is very little money for clubs to make from techno ravers, as they're not typically the ones downing alcohol; I highly doubt one can rave to music till sunrise while continually taking in alcohol at the rate at which your typical alcohol going club-goers would.

brodo2• 2 years ago

That's why raves typically cost an entrance fee.

throwbadubadu3• 2 years ago

I generally agree, but also disagree. The problem with drugs and people is that they usually overdo everything and dont know their limits. Who figures that out can also have their fun 8+ hours even at age, with a limited amount of alcohol(+weed) consumption at a certain constant level ;)

And then there are also that amazing sober ravers who can do 8-12hrs even without any drug. Shouldn't be underestimated how much some people like the music and their trancy dance therapy. (but yeah, those only also buy water/cola/maté).

injidup• 2 years ago

Pretty much like the modern Bachata/Salsa scene in Europe. Large parties that go from 11pm to sometimes 6am in the morning. Very little alcohol consumed but you pay big to get in to cover the cost of the location and dj's. However many venues will body frisk you for water bottles in an attempt to force you to the bar to buy drinks. At least one large event has stopped that and now provides free water ( https://bachata-fest.com/ ) under the obvious realization that people are there to dance not get shit faced and that bag checking and frisking for water bottles just leads to bad community feelings.

Jommi• 2 years ago

Festivals killed Raves and Nightclubs

brailsafe2• 2 years ago

As a relatively straight-edge person, I enjoyed my first and only actual rave, but I really felt like I had to convince myself I was enjoying it compared to the people that were obviously on MDMA or whatever, especially after a few hours of basically similar tempos. Ironically, they also all burned out at a certain point and it got even less engaging as they sat on the floor and I wandered around as though I didn't get the memo.

I've been to more recent Hardstyle shows since then at less sketchy venues and that's been fun, but something maybe about the repetitiveness of non-progressive trance or whatever at the time was quite boring. Some part of me wonders what that music feels like after taking something, but I spend enough time around people over 30 who regularly take mdma, coke, K, (I know they're quite different) that it continues seeming like something I'd prefer not to introduce into my life; it seems like they kind of need it. Incidentally, I'm definitely the exception in almost any group, having not engaged in anything but weed+alcohol recreationally, and occasionally drop those for periods of time. People are generally surprised that I haven't tried psychedelics yet.

benterix• 2 years ago

I'd prefer not to introduce into my life

I feel the same. Also, one of my friends developed a very bad condition after that, it was quite scary and depressing. Another one just died after taking a small dose (probably had an existing condition, but still...). there is no reason to take this shit.

nly• 2 years ago

I have a friend who decided he wanted to try all the drugs.

Weed, LSD, MDMA, Cocaine. He never did heroin (afaik) but tried more than I can recall.

He's very well adjusted and no longer does drugs at all. He doesn't even drink. No bad trauma, no rehab. He justed wanted to try them all to say he had.

hackernoops• 2 years ago

Rapists. Originally it was music lovers loving music. That authentic fun attracted lots of women, which attracted lots of rapists.

aboardRat4• 2 years ago

Who would ever want to stay up until 3 AM?

I'm already super sleepy by 23:00.

yowayb• 2 years ago

If I may respond only to the title: LiveNation

bandrami• 2 years ago

I was really confused until I realized they're talking about nightclubs, not raves

miss_behavin• 2 years ago

Writing this on a throwaway account because I am embarassed at being so socially stupid. Can one of my fellow engineers please explain to me the "point" of a rave? Is this like a thing to try and find a date? Do people actually enjoy the music and dancing?

I'm being really serious here. I don't really know anyone who understands this scene. I'm trying to learn but it's kind of a disaster, I wallflower up hard, get in a hella bad move that I don't understand what anyone's motives are, and then leave.

Yeah, I know. It probably speaks poorly of me. I try my best not to inflict that on anyone. Feel like maybe some wires in my brain are disconnected. Is it just supposed to be natural for humans to like music and dancing like that??

herbst3• 2 years ago

I just met some hippies coming back from the yearly new years rave in Andalusia. Drugs, thousands of people, illegal venue, ...

There are raves like this all the time in Spain, Italy, France & Czech

biscuits1• 2 years ago

Up next:

Why no one plays laser tag anymore?

Same answer as all the rest, Gen Z, of course!

ThinkBeat• 2 years ago

"Classical Raves" had a renascence during Covid, in at least a few countries. Illegal, (outdoor )location not disclosed until the day of, with a two step process. "Go here at this time, look for a guy with a blue shirt, a good bit of chaos, shitty equipment, and a lot of younger folks who love it.

It is amazing all you come across if you spend a lot of time walking your dog.

But there was a real unfortunate one in Oslo. Someone had picked a local and found after a good deal of spelunking found that there was a huge cave farther in. They decided this was a prefect place for an illegal rave.

Got it all setup and running, people dancing.

However running electric diesel generator(s) in a cave with little access to fresh air was not the best idea someone came up with that year.

wonderwonder• 2 years ago

Using the articles definition of a rave, essentially just a nightclub; a lot of them around me have been shutting down due to violence and the governments response to it. 10 years ago, my city used to have a thriving downtown / bar / club scene; driven primarily by university students.

In recent years, the homeless situation has spiked with dozens and dozens of aggressive, clearly mentally unstable individuals at various locations in the area. On top of that, the clientele has changed as the university students choose to stay closer to campus has their local offerings have expanded. This new group of patrons has brought violence with shootings and assaults happening now that never happened before.

The city government has responded by capping alcohol sales at midnight and requiring any bars that stay open later to provide and pay for onsite security. This extra cost has essentially crippled the club / bar scene with many of them going out of business.

Wonder if anything similar is happening in other cities, with nightclubs bearing the brunt of the costs for increasing violence in their area.

sharadov• 2 years ago

I spent a lot of time in the early 00s psytrance scene.

Most parties were on ranches or in the middle of nowhere state land.

We lugged generators and DJ equipment and the parties were a few hundred people.

We camped out - it was a blast.

It was a community - you shared your food, drugs etc.

I never enjoyed the massive raves, thought they were too commercial.

Gen Z now is more into festivals. Back in the day multi-artist festivals were rare.

Who killed the rave?

Related Stories