I'm returning my Framework 16

https://yorickpeterse.com/articles/im-returning-my-framework-16/

by YorickPeterse • 7 months ago

313 592 7 months ago

rookderby• 7 months ago

I'm still schlepping around with various used thinkpads. Maybe we get another HP Dev One that sells well this time.

ndiddy3• 7 months ago

I dual boot Asahi and Mac OS X on my Macbook Air, and haven't had any problems with suspend. IMO the two biggest problems are lack of USB-C display output (although this is less of a problem with the Macbook Pro since you can use HDMI) and having to deal with x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop).

It seems like he's looking for a PC laptop with Apple build quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't many options there. I'm not sure why he even considered the Framework, it's pretty obvious from looking at it that the downside for the configurability is the laptop not being as solidly built as less configurable/repairable alternatives. I would have suggested a Dell XPS if he's ruled out the X1 Carbon, but it looks like Dell still hasn't backtracked from their decision to ruin the XPS keyboard by replacing the function keys with an even less functional ripoff of the Apple touchbar from 10 years ago. I guess the best move is to suck it up and go with the X1 Carbon and deal with the screen resolution for the IPS version being 1200p.

brokencode2• 7 months ago

Just curious in case somebody knows. Are OLED displays in laptops bad at low light? He cites that as a reason he doesn’t want OLED, but I’ve never noticed such a problem on OLED phones.

ndiddy3• 7 months ago

A lot of computers with OLED displays use PWM for the low brightness levels, and he seems like the type of person who would be sensitive to that sort of thing.

piskov12• 7 months ago

OLED phones are bad because of flicker

Normal_gaussian2• 7 months ago

I'm using an OLED X1 Carbon right now in the UK. I use it all the time in low light.

I just turned all the lights off (even the Christmas tree) and ran through a handful of usage situations and couldn't see any issues. I turned some lights on and did the same, I couldn't see any issues. I asked Claude, and got told to do the finger test, and that is barely perceptible. I then used my phone to record the screen and yes - I can confirm that there is an effect that my pixel 9a's camera picks up, barely noticeable at 240Hz, and definitely noticeable at 480Hz.

Maybe the guy is particularly sensitive, but from the framing of the rest of the article I think he's blowing a few things out of proportion.

easygenes2• 7 months ago

I'd say the inverse is true: OLEDs are the best in low light, as they generally dim well and black means zero illumination of the pixel. Author is ill-informed. Also, OLED burn-in is a non-issue with current displays in any normal situation (e.g. not a kiosk or arcade or other sort of always-on static dashboard).

cromka2• 7 months ago

having to deal with x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop)

How so? Is this because some proprietary software that isn't available on ARM on Linux?

heavyset_go4• 7 months ago

Most server and embedded oriented software has been compiled for ARM 7 & 8 for a while now, but in my experience, software you'd use on a desktop might not have ARM builds unless it's popular with RPi or handheld gaming enthusiasts.

operator-name• 7 months ago

a PC laptop with Apple build quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't many options

There’s been a bunch of Windows ARM laptops that aim to directly compete with the M series Macs. Linux compatibility will depend on make on model.

ndiddy3• 7 months ago

As far as I'm aware, all of the Snapdragon ARM laptops are existing chassis designs with different motherboards. I'm not sure how ARM affects build quality. Moreover, Snapdragon X support on Linux is still heavily a work in progress with issues with sound, power management, webcam support, and video acceleration. I don't know why anyone would go with a Snapdragon laptop today when Intel Lunar Lake excels at the exact same workloads Snapdragon X does, has similar battery life, and Intel actually works on getting device support upstreamed in a timely manner.

wpm• 7 months ago

It makes me wonder, does Apple have some insane patent on unibody construction? The pre-Retina unibody MacBook Pros were easily upgradable and very solid. They had a ton of room in the chassis, and hell, the first year of them the battery was toollessly removable. Aside from the keyboard and the screen, it was all latches and a few common Phillips #00's.

Why have no manufacturers copied this obviously great construction technique? It's not like a Framework is wildly cheaper than a MacBook, we're already paying a premium, so the costs of subtractive CNC can't be it.

lotsofpulp2• 7 months ago

I think the costs of milling a solid piece of aluminum that precisely and in those quantities can be “it”.

https://youtu.be/lJx6cF-H__I

I am not an expert, but it seems to be an engineering achievement, given that no one else does it. I doubt milling methods are patent protected, but rather Apple can use its volume and vertical integration to drive costs down and spend more on the chassis than other laptop designers.

OsrsNeedsf2P• 7 months ago

TL;dr Framework isn't worth the price. If you put it apples to apples with a great product like the M1, Framework loses everywhere.

I had the same conclusion after daily driving both for 2 years; until yesterday, when my water bottle opened in my backpack and soaked them.

When I got home, I ripped apart my Framework and dried each piece. I left the M1 by my heater and tried to dry it out. This morning, I put the Framework back together, and everything except the keyboard works. The M1 won't boot.

While I did pay a ridiculous amount for my Framework, the keyboard is 50$ to replace. After the M1 design had me feeling it was more premium, it ultimately failed first.

65• 7 months ago

To be fair I once spilled water all over my Macbook's keyboard. It wouldn't boot for weeks afterward. I got a new computer and then checked back a few months later and my Macbook was magically able to boot.

foldr2• 7 months ago

As the sibling says, it’s definitely worth waiting at least a week or two to see if the M1 recovers. I’ve had the same experience.

Normal_gaussian2• 7 months ago

As the multiple siblings say, let it sit. Some desiccant next to it to suck moisture out of the air will help - rice is famously OK for this - no need to put it in the desiccant. A little bit of airflow is also good.

You may also find that rotating it into different positions accelerates it.

nottorp2• 7 months ago

Any repair shops specialized in saving devices from water in your area?

Haven't had a laptop rescued yet, but there was a phone simply dropped in water in my family. I put it in a 1 kg rice bag, drove to the repair shop. I don't know what magic they did but it worked for 2 more years until we upgraded it.

lurking_swe• 7 months ago

1 day is way too little time. make sure the room’s humidity is low, and consider unscrewing the back part of the body to let it dry more quickly.

I’d try again in 2-3 days. Water doesn’t leave any (or much) residue after it dries. Unlike other drinks.

TOGoS• 7 months ago

I'd return my Framework laptop if that was still an option. First they sent me bad RAM, and left me on my own to sort it out with Crucial, which never went anywhere. The mainboard has some weird power issue that prevents the modular ports, which are otherwise a cool idea, from working properly, and I went back and forth with support about that for two years before they finally told me it was out of warranty so I was SoL.

Then there's the screen that falls backwards.

Should've bought an old Thinkpad, instead.

The_President6• 7 months ago

They replaced the hinges on a batch 5 this year for free when I finally complained about it. I just asked nicely and showed them a video of a fan blowing the screen down. New ones are tuned as expected.

comte7092• 7 months ago

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn.

Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only briefly is there mention of the configurability.

People (not necessarily the author, but likely many commentators that make similar complains about the frameworks price) will lament how manufacturers don’t have upgradable ram, etc and then turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable laptop, or the price.

I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though.

Rergardless, what I feel like we see here (along with a lack of scale from a small company) is the core tradeoffs that we’d have to make to get back repairability, etc. framework certainly isn’t above criticism, but if you don’t care about these things then why look at this machine? A large established brand is always going to offer a a better value on the things you care about.

api• 7 months ago

I feel like Framework wasn’t for this customer. They would have been happier with a Lenovo or something or a Mac.

mPogrzeb• 7 months ago

I agree, although I do not think even Lenovo would be enough.

Numerlor• 7 months ago

Value wise when trying to spec out my personal Lenovo laptop on framework, it'd never get anywhere close to being worth it even if I completely made use of the hardware after a future upgrade.

Framework makes sense if you're going in on the sustainability idea, but other than that it's really just an expensive laptop that's not compelling against its competitors

casenmgreen2• 7 months ago

I can swap out my mobo for a RISC-V mobo, or ARM.

Get away from Intel and management engine.

arghwhat2• 7 months ago

The pricing when I looked was similar. I went with a Lenovo last time because the Framework 16 hadn't quite matured, but premium anything is never going to make financial sense.

Buying and repairing a framework is never going to be cheaper than going through consumable trash laptops, and buying top of the line laptops and trying to use them longer is never going to be cheaper or better than buying medium grade laptops and upgrading more often.

What you're paying for right now is the customization capabilities and the ideology. Upgrading and customizing a single platform with a community, vs. a fixed one-off design that'll be lost next time you upgrade.

If Framework isn't already compelling to you at this time, then you're not the target audience. They might drop in price, but they'll never win a race to the bottom.

aydyn• 7 months ago

The author seems to be very aware of the benefit of upgradability, but thats not an excuse for the shoddy experience. Some of the issues the author mentions are just absurd. Sharp edges, panels that creak? Come on.

casenmgreen2• 7 months ago

I have a 12th Gen 13. No problems like that.

GenerWork• 7 months ago

Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only briefly is there mention of the configurability.

I'm convinced that a lot of people have Dunning-Kruger effect when it comes to niche products like Framework. The fact that Framework exists at all is amazing, and like you said, it's frustrating to see the lack of understanding of the core value proposition of Framework both in this post and HN.

DetectDefect3• 7 months ago

an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine

The market assigns almost no value to these tenets, nor do the consumers participating in it.

Frotag3• 7 months ago

I guess repair-ability only matters if you expect the laptop to break. And there's no benchmarks for durability. But yeah I agree that upgrade-ability is of dubious value for most people.

kelnos9• 7 months ago

Your assertion seems to be trivially proven false, given that Framework still exists as a going concern.

Though I suppose what you say is perhaps still true, if you allow "almost" to do a lot of work.

wmf3• 7 months ago

Dave2D made the argument that you could buy another laptop for the same price as upgrading the Framework 16. This makes it hard to accept the quality tradeoffs.

fruitworks• 7 months ago

you get another mainboard to use as a sever or resell

aunty_helen2• 7 months ago

I think what’s lost here is when the framework project was launched, all the companies were moving to SoC designs and reliability was unknown.

Replacing a stick of ram is still much cheaper than buying a whole new MacBook, but these systems seem to be reliable enough that ram failures aren’t front of mind. Same for SSDs.

loeg• 7 months ago

Is 2000 eur even a lot of money? I think that gets you into better than dogshit laptop territory but I'd hesitate to claim that a 2000 eur purchase every >5 years puts you in "luxury" territory.

torben-friis• 7 months ago

Is 2000 eur even a lot of money?

It’s my entire professional life’s computer investment - a MacBook Pro in 2013 and an m1 MacBook on 2020.

YorickPeterse11• 7 months ago

For a good laptop it wouldn't be too bad, i.e. my X1 Carbon cost me about the same back in 2019 if I remember correctly. But it's ultimately about the price/quality trade-off, and this is where I feel Framework has some work to do, at least with the 16 inch model.

zipy124• 7 months ago

2000 euros gets you a 5070ti, i7 , 240hz screen, 32gb ram and 2tb storage. And with some left over.... That's a pretty nice laptop.

https://www.scan.co.uk/products/16-3xs-gamer-5070-ti-qhdplus...

aunty_helen2• 7 months ago

I think you’ve brought a really interesting point up. A lot of these laptops are the way they are because miniaturisation. Framework trades that off. But for some, this tradeoff isn’t in the right spot.

The challenge for framework is to build a modern laptop, that doesn’t have these tradeoffs. Which is an impossible challenge, hence why all of the other manufacturers ditched it. (That and repairability being bad for business)

So, a framework laptop, that’s as light, thin and fast as a mbp, while being a comparable price and being able to pull tabs to swap ram. The better their engineering, the closer they get to this and the more customers they can please.

oldestofsports4• 7 months ago

2000 euros was a premium price 10 years ago, today it is closer to mid range

vanviegen• 7 months ago

Uhh... What?

justin663• 7 months ago

I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though.

Buying one of the original Frameworks and a Macbook Air at roughly the same time made me realize how little I actually care about upgradeability and repairability. This feeling took me by surprise. Modern Macbooks are just so much better in terms of feel it's like comparing tech from a different decade.

(it also turns out that having a defect that the manufacturer doesn't make right can cause a person to feel a few different things, but gratitude for the product's repairability isn't at the top of the list)

osigurdson2• 7 months ago

Agree. I want rock solid Linux compatibility with mac like hardware quality / battery life and a Thinkpad like toughness and keyboard. I don't really need it to be upgradable as long as it lasts 8 years.

IshKebab2• 7 months ago

Yeah I agree. You can get two base MacBook Airs for the price of that laptop. A base MacBook Air is a very very capable machine.

jimmaswell2• 7 months ago

Some people around me prolesytize these modern Macbooks endlessly but I don't quite get it. I've tried them but I still love my Framework 16 to bits and I'd take it any day of the week. The Macbooks are great machines, and one thing I can say in their favor is the battery life is phenomenal, but I prefer my Framework's aesthetics and feel - it feels more like I'm holding something I've worked on and made my own vs just bought, I prefer the shiny metal over the dull gray of the Macbooks, the keyboard and trackpad are just as good (and I love the rgb pad I have in place of a numpad), and taking it apart/replacing modules just feels so cool. I've also saved those friends various times by lending an expansion card, usually usb-A.

conception2• 7 months ago

Also buying a laptop that’s not subsidized by ads and shovelware.

zamadatix6• 7 months ago

Please subsidize it by ads and shovelware, I'm not going to use the factory image anyways.

Levitating3• 7 months ago

Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if they're forced to buy it. Framework offers repairable laptops at a fixed price. To some the repairability adds enough value to warrant the higher prices, to some it doesn't. (As well as customizability and mainline Linux kernel support).

I've found that if you're in the habit of repairing laptops, Frameworks may come cheap to you as you might have spare storage and ram around. Not being forced to buy ram and storage is one of the "luxuries" of buying framework.

c0balt• 7 months ago

Not being forced to buy ram and storage is one of the "luxuries" of buying framework.

To be fair at least Lenovo and to some extent dell also offer this for individual customers.

It usually is not an option on the latest processors for premium models though as soldered RAM becomes more prevalent there. A minor problem of the author might be that they are looking at the relatively high tier models, which ime have less options for "saving" money, while something like a thinkpad e14 might also have been a good candidate instead.

llmslave2• 7 months ago

Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if they're forced to buy it.

This happens all the time, especially with Apple. Complaints about the inability to side load or use alternative stores for example. Nobody forced you to buy it. It's stupid when people do it for Apple and it's stupid when they do it for Framework.

idle_zealot• 7 months ago

Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if they're forced to buy it.

What is the implication of this? You're not allowed to criticize a product unless you're being forced to buy it? What is the list of companies you're allowed to levy any critiques of, then? Your electricity provider? You could always move, right?

Is this the mentality that leads people to only ever criticize government power and let all others off the hook?

MarsIronPI4• 7 months ago

I think the people criticizing would be potential customers who are voicing the issues that are preventing them from purchacing one. For example, I would criticize the lack of a trackpoint equivalent. And in fact, I'm not purchasing one because it doesn't have a trackpoint. If they listened to my complaint, I'd be much more inclined to buy one. (Not right away — I'm not on the market for a laptop right now — maybe 3 years down the line.)

simonjgreen• 7 months ago

I for one am delighted with my Framework laptop that started out as an Intel, is now an AMD, and has seen 3 rounds of in life upgrades. Zero regrets.

The author should have just bought a MacBook.

zamadatix6• 7 months ago

I think the bigger problem is Framework doesn't actually offer as much in upgradeability as it sounds. While it can be compared to laptops without modular RAM, SSDs, or Wi-Fi cards, the real comparison is to laptops with modular ones of those for significantly less and suddenly the amount of upgradeability value drops significantly. Unofficially, many of the laptops I've had I've been able to upgrade even the screen on as well. The value prop for replacing the mainboard+CPU while keeping the same generation RAM and SSD is really not that high in terms of upgradeability - especially with the breadth of selection so far. In the meantime, you're paying significantly more for less quality to have said ability.

To me, the core value proposition of the Framework is actually more in customization than about upgradeability. That's just a lot less valuable overall. I.e. you can place your port layouts in any order you want, you can customize the keyboard style and layout, your order builds up without really assuming you want a charger, RAM, and SSD to be included. If you don't particularly care about those things or you can find a laptop which matches what you want up front then it just leaves you questioning the massive price increase to do it the Framework way instead.

I'd really like to enjoy the idea of fully upgradeable laptops, but I think trying out a Framework laptop just made me realize how much it doesn't work out like I'd hoped rather than making me more excited for it. I ended up returning it and, ironically, getting a 395 laptop with soldered RAM (in my defense, Framework sells a desktop with this as well).

axelthegerman• 7 months ago

I don't see why upgrading a motherboard to one with a newer generation CPU is not valuable. Or why going 16 to 32 GB RAM a few years after buying it first isn't.

Yes full upgradability of each component would be pretty nice but now we have a desktop and factors like compactness and "premium feel" would be even worse

kelnos9• 7 months ago

I think the bigger problem is Framework doesn't actually offer as much in upgradeability as it sounds. [..,] Unofficially, many of the laptops I've had I've been able to upgrade even the screen on as well.

The Framework's screen is officially upgradeable, though, and I see that as a strength: while you or I might not blink at doing an unofficial screen replacement for some other laptop, I'm sure most people would be afraid to attempt something like that.

I've also (officially) replaced the webcam (new one is definitely better) and speakers (new ones are better but still meh). When my battery starts to go, I'll replace it with the higher-capacity battery that's available now.

So it's definitely quite a bit more than just RAM, SSD, Wi-Fi.

The value prop for replacing the mainboard+CPU while keeping the same generation RAM and SSD is really not that high in terms of upgradeability

I agree on the RAM: I have a Framework 13, and my next mainboard upgrade will require new RAM (which is of course crazy expensive right now), as my current board uses DDR4. But I view that as a forced upgrade; if I didn't have to go to DDR5, I'd probably stick with DDR4, and I'm sure it would be fine, even if not optimal.

But I really don't understand or agree with your comment about the SSD. I have a 2TB NVMe drive in my current laptop, and I expect I'll be using the same drive for years to come, certainly through my next mainboard upgrade, and probably even the following one.

That's just a lot less valuable overall. I.e. you can place your port layouts in any order you want, you can customize the keyboard style and layout,

Right, agreed: I have not changed the layout of my ports in more than a year at this point, and I never changed the keyboard style/layout. It was nice to be able to easily replace the keyboard when my original one developed issues a few months ago (not Framework's fault... it was my cat's fault), at least.

But I think all of this is a matter of taste. I expect there are some people who change out their expansion ports fairly often. It's fine that I don't value that feature as much as I expected I would.

My expectation is that I'll have this laptop chassis for another 10 or so years, probably with 2-3 mainboard upgrades in that time. My prior two (non-Framework) laptops were in the $1800-$2000 range, each of which lasted three years, and had significantly less RAM than my Framework does (those two laptops weren't even offered with 32GB, let alone the 64GB I have now).

My next mainboard upgrade will likely be the cost of that new laptop, given the crazy cost of DDR5 right now (though it looks like I'd be paying Dell around $2400 for a 13" laptop with 64GB; I could probably do the Framework mainboard upgrade plus RAM for $1800 or so). But maybe the next-next mainboard upgrade will still use DDR5, and I'll get a brand-new computer for around $1k. That's a really great value prop for me.

kelnos9• 7 months ago

I'm torn on your take, because on one hand I agree wholeheartedly (I own a Framework 13, and considered the repairability to be a part of the price, and a little added bulk to be a trade off I was comfortable with), but on the other, I think there's just some entirely-reasonable human psychology at work here that expects a €2k laptop to be premium in fit, finish, and polish.

But I do think Framework still has a ways to go when it comes to polish and build quality. I've had my 13 since August 2022, and had a ton of problems with it (thermal issues) that were only resolved nearly two years later, after lots of frustrating back-and-forth with support. I'm very happy with the laptop these days, but it shouldn't have taken that long to get there. I now have the 2023 Intel mainboard (the final resolution to my support case), and I'm looking forward to upgrading it to whatever the 2026 model turns out to be[0].

For me, Framework has been sort of a "stick with it for a while and it will get better" type of experience. And while it's worked out, that shouldn't be how it works. It should work well on day one. And frankly, based on the author's description of the Framework 16, it sounds like the 16 is not even up to the 13's level of polish.

[0] Well, we'll see what DRAM prices look like next year, as I have 64GB of DDR4 in my current laptop, and that same amount of DDR5 is not something I'd want to pay for right now.

ragall3• 7 months ago

High-end ThinkPads were always very repairable (even if not upgradable wrt. motherboard). The P50 I bought 10 years ago came with 4 RAM slots (and ECC capable), 3 disk slots, removable battery and way more ports than a Framework.

It really baffles me how people are willing to put up with the flimsiness of the Framework. Maybe they only move it from the desk to a sofa ? There are enough reports of Framework laptops dying after being carried too many times or being dropped. The lack of structural integrity is killing them, and this is all due to the approach to port flexibility.

ip263• 7 months ago

Upgradable to what? The ability to upgrade is well and good, but suppose the “endgame” configuration of an upgradable laptop was worse than the very base model of a non-upgradable. Why would you care about upgradability then?

kelnos9• 7 months ago

That's a weird argument/hypothetical, because the Framework is not worse than the very base model of a non-upgradeable laptop.

HeWhoLurksLate• 7 months ago

Upgrading to a new processor, or in the case of Framework, perhaps better hinges or keyboards or the like is IMO much more important to the long term desirability of a laptop than a 5% better keyboard or trackpad or RGB LEDs on the chassis.

I feel like the term "endgame" has completely lost its meaning - an "endgame" laptop is likely to be wholly irrelevant in at most ten years, especially so if you buy a super high end machine and expect high end machine things from it long term.

madeofpalk• 7 months ago

Is it fair to say that maybe the author doesn't value repairability? Maybe they just want a 'premium' laptop in the way the Apple laptops are premium, but want x86 and Linux/Windows? Surely for as large as a market there is for Apple laptops there is for a non-macOS equivalent.

monooso• 7 months ago

The author begins by stating that "the absolute nightmare that is opening [the X1 Carbon] up to replace parts or clean them properly" rules it out.

He then eliminates the MacBook because if "something needs replacing I basically have an expensive paperweight, because everything is soldered together".

This would suggest that the author does, in theory at least, value repairability.

0xbadcafebee• 7 months ago

but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability

Back in the day we used to have upgradeable laptops that weren't rattling tin cans with uncomfortable displays. Making something worse than it was 20 years ago for more money isn't a value.

chickensong2• 7 months ago

You're not calling out the upgrade ability enough.

Most people comparing the price of a Framework seem to miss the long view. After the initial purchase, every upgrade is cheap compared to buying an entire laptop over and over again. Bonus that you can repurpose or sell the old mainboard.

There are better laptops than Framework when compared as one-to-one at a certain point in time, but that's missing the point of Framework's approach.

doug_durham• 7 months ago

The point is that a laptop is a tool that you use every day. It needed to be reliable and very usable. Framework is compromising on usability in the service of upgradeability. It seems like you can have refined tool, or a repairable one.

hakcermani• 7 months ago

I have a FW13, 3 yrs old, battery was getting weak, i just ordered one from FW and popped out the old one and put in a new one. Same for SSD and memory. This alone makes me stay with FW.

codethief• 7 months ago

Not trying to change your mind but at least when it comes to exchanging the SSD and battery, you can do the same thing with practically all Thinkpads and Dells?

Just did it with my old Dell a couple days ago – I was done in 5 minutes.

heavyset_go4• 7 months ago

You can do this with EliteBooks, and HP replaced my battery for free.

kopirgan3• 7 months ago

Replacing battery, KB, RAM, SSd in most Elitebook, Latitudes used to be easy. Not anymore atleast with Dell. Most RAM soldered.

But if it lasts 3-4 years I guess many end up upgrading anyway. My Latitude 5330 has everything soldered even the disk but going strong for 3.5 years.

jstummbillig• 7 months ago

In contrast, Framework laptops has many supposed benefits: they're upgradable, repairable

Why would you propose that the author does not care about these things? They clearly do, they are simply not a single issue voter – and who is, when buying something as complex as a laptop? There is a trade-off and the one that Framework made here is not hitting the mark for the author, and they go into some detail to explain as to why.

I am super excited about Framework stuff: They are clearly getting somewhere with this; it's nicer than anything that came before with comparable repairability. I think it's super plausible that we don't exhaust the physical limitations that arise through repairability before it's so nice, that the trade-off will be negligible for most folks.

trinsic26• 7 months ago

IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for sustainability. If you are doing this I think you are missing the point. This isn't a apples to apples comparison.

I also feel the frustration of the parent, and I also see that many people don't want to pay or consider the ramifications of where we we are at right now in this given time. Most devices are designed to be throwaway, manufactures cut corners, operate at a loss. These are byproducts from our badly designed technology from a suitability perspective that have driven prices down in a unhealthy way IMHO.

Its like trying to compare prices between now and fifty years ago. If you want the world to be more sustainable, you need to consider that its going to cost more, its not going to be comparable to whats out there right now, and you are going to need to deal with the growing pains.

Comparing Framework laptop to whats out there today in terms of features is a losing proposition. The market is built around a lack of sustainability.

spankibalt• 7 months ago

"People (not necessarily the author, [...] will lament how manufacturers don’t have upgradable ram, etc and then turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable laptop, or the price."

I desire sturdyness and repairability but anything larger than a 14-inch machine (and then only either as detachable or at least convertible) is completely inacceptable to me. And that 14-incher better be a dream. In other words: As small and light as possible, as big and heavy as neccessary.

cosmic_cheese13• 7 months ago

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy to justify.

So while upgradability and repairability are great to have, their material impact on day to day user experience is minimal, except maybe for people who have a tendency to severely underspec their initial hardware purchases. On the other hand, things like chassis rigidity, cooling performance, fan noise, and battery life being subpar are constant reminders that you spent a pretty penny on a laptop that's not meeting your needs.

The reality may be that wanting a laptop that's well rounded and competent across the board AND repairable+upgradable is akin to having your cake and eating it too, but that doesn't stop people from wanting it anyway.

As an aside, I believe that Framework could probably get closer to that ideal if they unchained themselves from the port module idea. Yes it's cool, but it forces all sorts of design compromises that otherwise wouldn't be necessary, and I'd bet that something like 80-90% of Framework buyers would be just as happy if changing ports required opening up the chassis, swapping out side plates, and doing a little bit of internal wiring.

MarsIronPI4• 7 months ago

This. My idea of a repairable laptop is the Thinkpads up until around 2015. And I absolutely agree that the port modules forces Framework to limit the number of ports to the point that I'd hesitate to purchase one because I'd be swapping ports all the time.

paulddraper3• 7 months ago

This is an insane take.

The number of MacBooks I’ve seen shipped back to repair center for weeks, over a single non functional key, is astonishing.

idontwantthis• 7 months ago

Also the fact that hardware is pretty stagnant and upgrades aren’t that important anymore for most stuff. I bought an Acer in 2012 and over the next 5 years I upgraded the RAM from 4 gb to 8gb and swapped the hdd for an ssd. Those were enormous upgrades! Then I bought a MacBook Pro with 16gb and an ssd and didn’t need another computer until this year (still didn’t NEED one but I found a good deal on a 4 year old MBP).

makeitdouble11• 7 months ago

hardware has usually advanced far enough

That's not what we're experiencing.

Screens have seen improvements, but not in a significant way within these 4-6 years. Keyboards haven't improved leaps and bounds. Track pads either. Laptop casings haven't seen innovation either.

The only thing that significantly changes is the motherboard, which is not nothing, but replacing it independently makes sense to me.

port module idea.

That's one of the best idea they have! You might have bought a laptop with 4 USB ports 5 years ago, only to realize you'd be so much happier with two USB-A. Or you realize you never ever use the SD Card slot. Well, you'd fix that easily on a Framework, not on any other laptop.

I wish I could do that right now. The only reason I haven't one of their laptop is their stubborn refusal to ship outside a dozen or so countries.

goku129• 7 months ago

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody.

Judging reparability and serviceability the same way as you do with other features is absurd, to put it charitably! It is one feature that you rarely use, but brings you huge value when you do use it. You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading the same desktop PC for two to three generations instead of throwing away the whole PC and buying a new one each time. This dismissal of the feature is bizarrely shortsighted.

The reality may be that wanting a laptop that's well rounded and competent across the board AND repairable+upgradable is akin to having your cake and eating it too, but that doesn't stop people from wanting it anyway.

I talked about this just two days ago. Unlike how you project it, that ideal is entirely feasible if there was enough investment and a large enough market. Instead, OEMs inflict the opposite on the consumers who take it all in without pushing back. These companies choose and spread suboptimal designs that suit their interests and then insist that it is the only viable way forward. It's absurd that consumers also repeat that falsehood.

Brian_K_White• 7 months ago

"The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody."

That is entirely irrelevant.

The product does what it says on the tin. If you don't value that because "repairability isn't a frequent need" then you don't value that (and the reason doesn't matter).

If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin, buy the thing, and then complain that it is what it said it was going to be?

That is what's annoying to witness.

I can do all that same math about price and features, yet why don't I have any buyers remourse? Do I not know about Dell and Lenovo and Apple? If the value proposition is innately bad, then why aren't I complaining too? Have I been hypnotized into acting against my own priorities and intentions?

The problem is not with the product or it's price.

* not literally you, sorry for how that sounds

johnnyanmac16• 7 months ago

Reliable machines

Maybe one day I'll have that. Meanwhile,

- my first hp laptop had to be sent in twice in 2 years. Then by year 3 I just gave up the ghost (having side income helped)

- 2nd Asus laptop was used and a decent discount, so I didn't complain too much. But it hit screen issues in 2 years.

- then I got a razer blade. Honestly not bad (just really expensive), I simply had the lack of hindsight to realize 3 years later that it wouldn't be compatible with Windows 11. For what reason I will never know. Not too long after the battery simply refused to hold charge as well. I could have spent to repair that, but I was already looking at an upgrade funded by my work perks anyway.

My current Asus has been relatively problem free, but there were still minor things I opened it up for. Typical ram and storage upgrades at first. Spotty wifi chip early on, but I upgraded it to an Intel one for AC support a few months in regardless. Also hate how I discovered that the computer has vents on the front and will freak out if you close the display for secondary monitors no matter how well you cool the rear vents, but I guess that one's on me for not more carefully considering.

So yeah, I'd rather just have something repairable.

dngray4• 7 months ago

The thing I don't get about the framework upgradability is that, what are you honestly going to do with the old system board or graphics card? I guess you could sell it. Who's going to really buy it?

I tend to upgrade my laptop every 6-8 years and by then there is nothing to upgrade well, frankly the technology has moved on, new PCIe standards DDR screen tech etc. One of the reasons I did not buy a framework (was very close to it) is the screen. I value having a decent screen attached to my laptop. I think some of these newer laptops with Tandem OLEDs will be a real improvement over what was out there previously.

I thought about the port configuration as well, and that's all cool you can have 6 ports that can be anything you like, but really they are just two USB controllers controlling all that. One on either side. What would be my ultimate port configuration? Well probably like some USB-C and an audio port and a HDMI port. The network adapter sticks out so that's going to be super annoying. The newer Lenovo and Dell laptops have replaceable USB ports, which means if I wear one out I can replace it easily.

What I also realized is you can do some really cool things like PCIe passthrough with Thunderbolt that of course you don't get on a Framework. Want to have an awesome GPU? Well you can use an eGPU or perhaps an flash a firmware to your NVMe (you can't do that over USB), but you can over PCIe passthrough where the device shows up as /dev/nvme0. I've always had problems with disks over USB, sometimes they'll drop from the system, and things like eSATAp were always more reliable for 3.5" disks, but that's only available on desktop with a special bracket.

One of the other reasons I ended up not going for the Framework was that it uses Insyde BIOS and they were a bit slow on their Logofail firmware updates. Prompt security updates are important to me. None of them also have vPro or Ryzen Pro models, (so no encrypted RAM) https://fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#dram-memory-... if you want to achieve higher HSI 4 levels. https://fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#hsi4-secure-...

In the end I'm just going to spend a little on a T1g Gen8 probably. I can upgrade the RAM in that because it's CAMM2. It may cost a little more than the framework but on special I should be able to get it for a nice price.

If I had less money I'd probably just go for previous gen.

Xlr8head• 7 months ago

Are Frameworks even upgradeable enough to enable the same kind of upgrading in the typical upgrade window as one would get buying a new machine? This means replacing nearly everything except the chassis, keyboard, and screen.

brookst2• 7 months ago

Exactly this. Everyone says they want upgradable (stated preference), but when making personal purchasing decisions, a “premium experience” is valued more highly (revealed preference).

moomin• 7 months ago

It’s frustrating. A small manufacturer can’t hope to beat out a large one on price. And that’s before we consider that the maintainability that Framework offers means you can’t cut the corners the regular manufacturers do. But even I find things like the weight an unappealing proposition even though I have no idea how you’d build a laptop like Framework’s that appreciably lighter.

dangus• 7 months ago

One of the issues with the 16 is it’s just a way worse value proposition than the 13.

The 13 is great. I’d even go as far as calling it a good deal, cheap even, especially if you DIY and bring your own memory and storage.

The 16 just gets badly outclassed by alternatives.

I think the problem is that once you get into that big laptop territory people start wanting more specific use cases like gaming or other performance metrics. There has to be a reason to want a big bulky laptop.

Plus, bigger laptops more frequently come with better repeatability.

I also find that there’s a lot more PC competition in the 15-16” screen sizes. The framework 13” is actually uniquely small/light. The Framework 16” is somewhat worse packaging than its competitors.

The 16” really needs to have an option for a 5070Ti and 5080.

orthoxerox2• 7 months ago

If I wanted the innards of my laptop to be upgradable, I would want the only part of it that would stay with me for the next decade or two (the chassis) to be damn near perfect.

There's a reason why there are enthusiasts making custom motherboards and screen adapters for old-school (seven-row) ThinkPads. These things were built like a German executive sedan.

koiueo• 7 months ago

enthusiasts making custom motherboards and screen adapters for old-school (seven-row) ThinkPads

This. It baffles me that companies like System76 and Framework refuse to borrow from an existing successful solution like ThinkPad. I remember asking System76 representative over the phone about trackpoint; from time to time I revisit that one thread on Framework forums about trackpoint keyboard... No progress there.

The only explanation I have is that they obviously can't copy, but designing something like an old ThinkPad is intrinsically hard and costs way too much for a small company.

OJFord• 7 months ago

It did annoy me slightly that they released higher quality more rigid upper parts of the chassis ('top cover', behind the screen) shortly after my launch order of the 13.

Sure I can upgrade, for £129, but my first upgrade as a result probably may as well be a whole new laptop: top cover, motherboard+CPU, RAM (necessitated by CPU advances), as well as perhaps screen (higher resolution and matte finish now available).

But I couldn't really expect that for free (I did get free stiffer hinges to resolve a problem) and I do want it to get better...

theodric• 7 months ago

There are weirdos out there. I am looking for a bulkier and more hackable laptop! I bought a ThinkPad P14s Gen5 AMD which has turned out to be a flimsy, plastic (not magnesium like the Intel units), disappointing piece of shit with frequent (but known) GPU crash issues, which I bought because I had a certain moment when I needed a computer and the Framework 16 was still on last-gen hardware, which felt silly to buy so close to an inevitable upgrade. I wish I had, though. Not much difference between an 8840HS and a 7840HS, but a huge difference between even a fairly upgradable ThinkPad like the P14s and a Framework.

Aurornis5• 7 months ago

but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn.

On the contrary, I think a lot of people completely understand the value proposition. It’s just that once you evaluate it against all of the tradeoffs and other priorities, it reveals that upgradeability is not as valuable as the other priorities. Most consumers aren’t single-issue voters who purchases hardware based on a single axis of features.

With Framework laptops specifically I’ve started to feel like “but it’s upgradable!” is becoming a tired rebuttal to any discussion of the tradeoffs you take one when you buy one of these machines.

In theory I enjoy an upgradeable machine, too. But in practice I’m not willing to give up much now in exchange for the possibility of maybe upgrading part of it later.

This is a classic example of revealed preference in product design. When you ask people in a vacuum if they want features like upgradeability, swappable batteries, or tiny phones that fit in your pocket the answer is always “Yes, obviously!” Then when the product comes to market and people have to vote with their wallets they survey the options and pick the laptop that’s light and highly integrated, the phone with a built-in battery that’s compact and sturdy, and the phone with a screen big enough to not feel cramped. This leaves a vocal minority trying to tell everyone else that they’re making the wrong choice or they have their priorities wrong, but the simpler answer is that these products are best reserved for the minority of people who prize singular design goals like upgradeability options to such an extreme that they’re willing to compromise or ignore everything else.

kopirgan3• 7 months ago

Sorry I didn't buy framework laptop but did find their prices high. Regarding assigning premium to repairability, wonder what's really premium about that? I mean in terms of materials used. Ignoring premiums paid for branding, I would think it's fair to charge premium if offering such feature comes with higher cost.

mistercheph• 7 months ago

It depends on what "premium"/"luxury" mean to you. For some, red leather that has been masterfully tanned and stitched lining the interior of their car is premium. For others, the ability to transport you hundreds of thousands of miles in any terrain and any conditions with equipment failures that are rare and easy to fix is "premium". Being swaddled in high cost materials while stuck on the side of the road in a snowstorm isn't exactly a "premium" experience.

Likewise, for some, there is nothing premium about a product that 1) becomes a paperweight when a single component fails or is no longer sufficient to satisfy the user's changing desires. 2) Hasn't had engineering time and BOM on high-cost materials devoted to making the device easy-to-repair, or has had engineering resources spent making the device hostile to repair.

Framework doesn't just give you permission to repair and modify their product, they have engineered and designed a product that is easy and intuitive to repair and modify, and made out of materials that are designed and selected to endure being touched and manipulated, one great example that probably comes to mind for many FW13 owners that have opened the device is the touchpad cable finger loop in the FW13.

As any technician or DIY enthusiast might tell you, the materials e.g. Apple uses that you interact with during disassembly aren't exactly robustly made, and there is no sign that care or good taste was used when designing the disassembly procedures. But again, it depends on what you want, for some fragility enhances their experience of an object as premium and they have no interesting in upgrading/repairing their own device so the quality of that experience is irrelevant.

browningstreet• 7 months ago

the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn

That value proposition isn't good enough for the machine you have to live with day after day. I think a lot of people get the value proposition, but Framework just isn't a good enough machine. Even if it might be an interesting platform.

And, the world still needs better Linux laptops. The value proposition in that demand apparently isn't resulting in them.

mhluongo2• 7 months ago

Happy Framework 13 user here to say this.

I recently realized the 32Gb I had originally spec'd isn't enough for work lately. Easy fix, I just ordered more RAM.

Pretty straightforward value prop here. If that's not why you want, buy a different device.

PKop• 7 months ago

You can do this on virtually every non-soldered laptop why is this presented as some unique feature?

rjdj377dhabsn2• 7 months ago

The idea of upgrading a laptop may sound great at first, but I don't think most people really want that.

After 2-3 years, my laptop is pretty beat up from carrying it around in a bag daily. I usually buy premium laptops, but still the hinges get loose, the corners bent, scratches everywhere, ports loose. Usually superficial issues like that make me buy a replacement before I really need upgraded chips.

copirate2• 7 months ago

With a Framework laptop you could fix these superficial issues while keeping the chips (and the superficial parts that don't need replacement).

diddid• 7 months ago

I agree, if they had a framework it would have been trivial to swap to a new keyboard.

Also I get annoyed where they say they don’t like it but don’t yet have an alternative.

notepad0x90• 7 months ago

Your comment is sensible, so long as repair parts aren't duds all the time, and repairs don't cost you the same as a purchase.

For most laptops, including macs, replacing things like batteries and screens is not what makes them irreparable, but it is things like the cpu, discrete gpu, etc.. I applaud framework on what they're doing, but it isn't there yet. If anything on the mothrerboard breaks, you're looking at a hefty repair bill to replace it. If they keep a decent stock of original,tested and quality parts long-term (10+ years) that would be one thing, but if "repair" means upgrading to the latest stuff, then it is just saving you on a replacement.

Ideally, I would purchase replacement components at the time of purchase, so if I have a loose $300 after the initial purchase, I might spend it on a spare ram, cpu, or gpu. Now, with that money, I can only buy cosmetic/casing parts, battery, connectors and such. Again, I appreciate their direction, and if we're spending to support them alone, that's great. But they have been around for a while, and some constructive criticism regarding value might be good.

safety1st• 7 months ago

I want Framework to succeed, but the author's objection isn't unreasonable:

For a premium price I expect a premium laptop, but the Framework 16 feels more like a €1200-€1500 laptop at best... two thousand Euros for this kind of laptop is just absurd

For most people the long-term total cost of ownership is going to be a major factor when they consider a more repairable laptop. Sure, generating less e-waste is nice, but saving money is probably the main point. What the author is asserting here is that to get the repairable laptop you need to spend 50% more for the same specs! As well as accept that the form factor is bulkier etc. At a 50% premium you do have to question whether you're going to save a meaningful amount of money in the long run.

For me I probably would - I find uses for machines that are a decade old and the repurposability of Framework components is pretty interesting. But interest in this level of reusability is a pretty niche market.

I think the Framework 16 is too expensive. They can access a niche market at these price points but to get bigger they will need to find a way to deal with the cost issue. PC World's review of the Framework 13 this year was: "A steep price for a compelling upgrade."

johnnyanmac16• 7 months ago

But interest in this level of reusability is a pretty niche market.

We're getting to a point where some people don't even have a laoptop in their household. I think "serving a niche", especially one willing to pay 1000+ for tech, isn't a bad thing here. The tech required for browsing internet and streaming videos doesn't need to spend more than $500, or even get a windows/mac.Chromebooks will happily cut into that entry level market.

This is all before mentioning how memory prices will only make the problem worse for all consumer electronics.

closewith2• 7 months ago

Maybe the feeling of saving money, but any TCO calculation isn't going to land on the side of upgradability or repairability.

pkphilip3• 7 months ago

If you want user serviceable equipment - example: phones, computers, cars, bikes, washing machines etc, you will have to deal with the issues that come with it - the same as the inconveniences that come with user serviceable software AKA open source software.

The reason being that a device which has been tested to work with only a fixed set of parts will likely have more of the issues ironed out in comparison to a device which has to work with a much wider range of devices.

You may not get the same form factors because user serviceable equipment will tend to be bulkier - for instance, you may not be able to get ultra thin laptops, phones etc.

However, these inconveniences are worth it because the alternative is that we will find ourselves in a place where the equipment becomes more and more adversarial to consumers.

flowerthoughts• 7 months ago

I just bought a car, and the same issue exists there. I can buy an expensive car that is also expensive to service, or a slightly cheaper car that is cheap to service, or a cheap car that is cheap to service.

That middle ground is much nicer than realising after the honeymoon period that it's costing you an arm to replace the control box for the left headlight. But TCO is really difficult to find numbers on, especially when you don't exactly know how you'll use the device as you buy it.

johnnyanmac16• 7 months ago

Yeah, I felt the same way. The upfront cost is larger, but the idea is that 2-3 years down the line you can upgrade (or simply replace) your GPU or even CPU it won't be another 2000 investment down the line.

But of course, weight is a personal thing with a laptop (my Asus is around 2kg and I never felt like I couldn't carry it one handed) and if core things like the screen or speakers really sucks, that's a deal breaker no matter what.

atoav• 7 months ago

As someone who has done more than one hardware project: most people generally have got no idea how pricing comes to be.

Usual points involve:

- not understanding that a manufacturer has to charge more than parts cost ("But the parts only cost X, why does the product costs 3 times X?")

- not understanding economies of scale ("Why does your product [selling a hundred pieces] not cost the same as the product by the market leader [selling hundred-thousand pieces]?")

- not understanding that certain things are genuinly complex and thus expensive ("Why does a mere fusion reactor cost X, when I can get a single bicycle dynamo for 5 bucks?")

- comparing apples and oranges ("Why does product A [rugged, incredibly tight tolerances, extended temperature range, waterproof, 10 years warranty, with support] cost 10 times more than product B [broken when you look at it wrong]")

With framework the scale is smaller than the likes of apple, also framework had signifikant R&D cost to make it repairable. And if a repairable laptop is what you want it is one of the only good choices out there.

mft_• 7 months ago

Thank you for this interesting perspective. I’ve moaned a little on HN previously about the relative value of the FW13 - IIRC it was roughly 60% more than an equivalently (or in some areas, better) specced ASUS.

Taking your position —that repairability is a premium feature to pay extra for— the question then becomes how much more is that feature worth? (After all, we’re well used to making value judgements regarding a better screen, more memory, etc.)

I guess what’s missing for me is a more thorough understanding of why the FW13 is so much more expensive than the competition? I can write off some of the difference down to lower production volumes, and some of it down to the direct costs of repairability (i.e. extra items that need to be made that just wouldn’t exist in a non-repairable laptop). But this feels a long way away from explaining the ~60% I think I’m looking for, when many of the major parts of the laptop (e.g. processor, RAM, SSD, screen, hinges, fans) are (or could be?) available ‘off the shelf’ at a similar cost to any other manufacturer?

rsynnott2• 7 months ago

but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn.

The thing is, it doesn’t _really_ excuse many of the issues they had. For a 2000 euro laptop, you should not be cheaping out on, say, speakers. Acceptable laptop speakers are not expensive. And coil whine, while a common problem with expensive laptops, is not IMO acceptable at this price point. Neither of these issues are even vaguely inherent to it being modular.

rafaelmn• 7 months ago

What value proposition exactly ? If you're comparing to similar build quality laptops you're looking at price for two devices vs one with HW upgrades. And you can't even compare it to a premium device.

And worst of all you can only upgrade to what they have available - you can't get a strix halo inside of that thing - this is the only scenario that would make sense for me - enthusiast level hardware support.

emptysongglass• 7 months ago

I own a Framework 13. It is one of the worst machines I've ever owned. I am not misunderstanding the value proposition. For the amount of money I paid I expect a machine that sleeps when I close the lid, does not run out of battery when sleeping in a day and a half, has decent battery life with mixed use (with the upgraded battery), has speakers that aren't actual garbage (with the upgraded speakers), and sells an expansion storage module marketed as capable to run an OS that actually runs an OS without randomly turning off because of power draw issues.

To top that all off, at one point (I don't know if he's still employed) Framework hired a dedicated Linux community person who gaslighted customers with actual issues telling them it was their fault.

If this was any other mainstream PC seller, people would rightfully dump on them all day long. Instead, we are treated to long apologia from people like yourself because of "the vision".

bobbob272• 7 months ago

By all accounts the Framework 14 hits the balance well, feeling basically like any other premium metal laptop. Maybe based on that reputation alone, the author decided to buy the 16.

But the 16 is meant to be a chonky desktop replacement with a giant GPU enclosure on the back. Just by virtue of what it is, it's never going to feel very nice.

The author's other option to buy being a MacBook tells me they neglected to do their research on what they were buying.

What they really wanted was a Framework 14! It basically IS a MacBook with replaceable components and full repairability.

datatrashfire• 7 months ago

i think the author is pretty clearly making the point the trade off is not worth it to him. which is not all that suprising given that seems to match the preferences of most people given the popularity of apple hardware which has for a very long time been on the far end of the irreparable, but smaller, quieter, etc, spectrum.

wkat42425• 7 months ago

I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though.

I don't consider that so either, no. I think it should be a standard experience. Not something I have to pay extra for. And really, the bulkiness is something that shouldn't suffer too much from a 2mm memory module.

hulitu• 7 months ago

I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience

This mindset is pretty new. No, i don't want to pay for "the ability to repair or upgrade my machine".

debo_10• 7 months ago

Author doesn't cite how they decided that only MacBook or Framework would fit their needs. I've never had trouble with Dell laptops with any Linux distro I cared about. If I wanted a powerful Linux laptop, I'd probably look at something like Dell's premium model:

https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/laptops-ultrabooks/dell-16-p...

justarandomname4• 7 months ago

My first laptop back in 2005ish or so was a Dell Latitude. Ran XP until Vista came out and I switch to Linux which it ran for a couple years until it was stolen from my car. I recall unimaginable pain and suffering due to wifi, which, IIRC, I side-stepped by buying replacing the stock Broadcom card with an Atheros card and I'm certain is not nearly much of an issue as it used to be.

debo_10• 7 months ago

2005 is a really long time ago.

kelnos9• 7 months ago

When it comes to WiFi on Linux, 2005 experiences are irrelevant to today.

varispeed• 7 months ago

Please don't trigger my Dell PTSD. This is garbage tier hardware designed to harass employees.

debo_10• 7 months ago

The_President6• 7 months ago

Nothing says quality like a display option with a picture comparable to a cheap portable DVD player from 2007.

okanat• 7 months ago

If your company demands/keeps buying the shittiest, cheapest plastic Dell laptops instead of XPSes or higher end Latitudes/Precisions, that's not Dell's fault.

My company uses XPSes and Precisions. They work great.

mort963• 7 months ago

I've had two Dell XPS laptops (a 13" 2015 model and a 15" 2-in-1 2018 model). Both had significant touchpad issues: not sure if that's a driver thing or a hardware thing, but both would sometimes act as if there was a phantom touch somewhere on the trackpad which messed with my actual input. One of them had a keyboard where key caps of frequently used keys (super, shift, ctrl) would split in two after a ~year of use; this was not fixed under warranty, I paid out of pocket after a year of ownership, another year later it happened again.

After those two Dell XPS laptops, I got a MacBook Pro 2021 with an M1 Pro instead of getting the keyboard fixed again. No issues. Linux support isn't great, but at least macOS is a relatively competent UNIX so it's fine.

I might consider another non-Mac laptop in the future. But it's not gonna be a Dell.

debo_10• 7 months ago

I think I may have the same 2015 13" model you are describing. Which distro were you running out of curiosity?

fluidcruft• 7 months ago

I have had many Dells that have been great with FreeBSD and with Linux. You do have to do your research though.

Frankly, I wouldn't expect any touchscreen to work with Linux. That's not a Dell issue though.

YorickPeterse11• 7 months ago

I did briefly look into the XPS series but it seems this series isn't really a thing anymore? I also found a lot of comments describing recurring issues with the trackpad (or was it the keyboard? I can't remember). Basically it seemed like too much of a gamble.

debo_10• 7 months ago

I'm not a massive fan of the hardware or anything, but most Dell laptops (including this premium one I linked) are tested to work with Ubuntu. If you're ok to use an Ubuntu-derivative as your distro, you should almost always have that as an option. Much like the Framework, it should be easily returnable if you have an issue.

DetectDefect3• 7 months ago

How is Dell's firmware security story?

debo_10• 7 months ago

I can't think of many things I care less about than firmware security, so I am personally not sure.

markus_zhang3• 7 months ago

I bought a few refurbished Dell laptops/desktops in recent years, and while older models hold fine, more recent models broke down quite easily within a year. Sure all of them are refurbished models (purchased through official website) that cost from $400 CAD to $800 CAD but I'm sketchy of the build quality of recent models.

debo_10• 7 months ago

Good to know. My most recent is from 2021 and it holds up quite well.

dagmx6• 7 months ago

Dell build quality and longevity vary wildly.

My XPS 15 had a host of issues, all of which occurred commmonly but weren’t knowable at the time of purchase since it was early.

1. Battery swelling which wrecks the touchpad

2. Sleep issues so it would turn into a furnace in a backpack

3. Screen and keys randomly stops responding

4. Creaky body

5. Screen gets weird temporary burn in.

chipheat• 7 months ago

I read various reports of the Framework 13 having issues with poor battery life, fan noise, heating, etc

Intriguing, I read the same but instead for the Framework 16. I ended up getting the AMD 7040 Framework 13 because of those reviews.

starkparker2• 7 months ago

One option is the Framework 13 given that it solves at least some issues I have with the Framework 16 (e.g. it's bulkiness and inability to lower the brightness further), but it also seems to share many of the other issues such as poor speaker quality and (at least from hat I could find) worse heat regulation, and a (possibly) worse battery.

The speakers are bad, but as a 13 owner I don't see or understand the heat or battery complaints specifically vs. the 16, it's considerably better on both fronts in the current iterations of the 13.

Unless you're comparing them to a Mac running macOS? It isn't clear, but in which case yeah, obviously it's worse than a Mac.

What I don't understand is why you bought the 16 instead of the 13. You didn't seem to need or use the discrete GPU, which is arguably the entire reason it exists. The only other feature you mention as useful that the 13 doesn't have is QMK support.

YorickPeterse11• 7 months ago

I literally mention the reason in the article in the "Configuration" section (https://yorickpeterse.com/articles/im-returning-my-framework...)...

starkparker2• 7 months ago

Yeah, and as others have noted here in the comments, it doesn't make sense.

You don't want bulk, but you chose the bulkiest option. You want a display with more even brightness and colors, but you chose the model intentionally built around a more refresh-performant but uneven display. You either don't care about or didn't bother measuring GPU performance, but you chose the model designed entirely around novel GPU features.

You cite unsourced reports of 13s having anti-properties, but it reads like you didn't research either newer 13s or the 16 at all.

brcmthrowaway• 7 months ago

What about Qualcomm's Windows ARM M1 competitor?

wmf3• 7 months ago

X Elite is mostly regarded as a dud.

garretraziel• 7 months ago

I have one and I am really happy with it. YMMV of course.

justarandomname4• 7 months ago

I've had a Framework 13 for nearly a year, been very happy with it, I've taken it on international work trips but it mostly sits on my desk with external displays attached. I ran Windows on it until I switched jobs, now its Ubuntu.

I also have an X1 Nano, which I love too, its the around-the-house laptop and a great little machine but whenever it dies, if I replace it at all, it will likely be with another Framework (perhaps the 12")

The real test will be in 2-3 years when I'm itching for an upgrade, assuming Framework is still around, I'll be able to swap out the MoBo and leave everything else as-is. We'll see.

thenobsta• 7 months ago

Same. I'm very happy with my FW13 too. It replaces the MBA for my purposes -- dev on linux (mostly webdev on this machine, have a remote machine for gpu/heavy work), web browsing, streaming, some very light gaming (portal 2 on steam).

I'm waiting on that test too :) a few more cpu generations and I'll be itching to upgrade. I'm excited to for that to happen.

linsomniac• 7 months ago

A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working

For a couple decades I was running exclusively Thinkpads, and always loved replacing the keyboard because it made it feel like an entirely new laptop. It also usually was quite easy and inexpensive. Probably worth doing in this case if there are no good alternatives.

Unfortunately, the X1 Carbon is, due to the form factor, a bit tricky, but probably won't take more than an hour or two depending on your skill level. You have to go in through the back, and there are around 100 screws that need to be removed and reinstalled.

Could be worse though, I replaced a friends daughter's keyboard in her Dell, and that was a similar remove-the-motherboard operation, but the keyboard was plastic welded in place.

The_President6• 7 months ago

Sorry your product experience was sub-par. We have four of the various revisions and the quality is on par with the other laptops in the price bracket. Framework versus MacBook - Not even a comparison - One of them you can do whatever you want with, and the other not so much. Linux is the best option for these computers, as with Windozers the battery life is worse. Baseline CPU idle on a clean linux install is like 0.5% - this results in a low power use battery life of about 7 hours on the 13" model under web browsing/audio playing loads.

Rebelgecko3• 7 months ago

My Framework seems to get worse battery life on Linux than Windows. Different tools like powertop help close the gap, but inevitably if I put the framework in a bag for a week, it'll be dead when I take it out

The_President6• 7 months ago

I shut mine down completely and haven't had the battery drain issue, but on "modern standby," yes these don't last very long. Probably 2-3% per hour on standby and worse than that if anything is plugged into the expansion slots.

sillystuff3• 7 months ago

If your laptop is using a recent AMD Ryzen based SoC:

ACPI C4 power state (for powering down more of the SoC during S0ix suspend) is not supported on Linux yet, for recent (last couple years) AMD processors.

Patches submitted for 6.18 were described as "laying the foundation for AMD C4 support". So, maybe won't be fully supported until 6.19 or even later; Sorry, I haven't followed up to see what has actually landed.

deryilz• 7 months ago

If you're going to put it in a bag for a week, why not use some kind of hibernation feature?

buckle8017• 7 months ago

He bought the last likely to be compatible and oversized option.

Of course he didn't like it.

RomanPushkin• 7 months ago

Nothing beats a MacBook Air if you’re not chasing raw performance.

I ended up with two machines:

- MacBook Air (16GB)

- MINISFORUM UM870 with 48GB RAM

The Air is unbeatable for portability and battery life. The MinisForum is still “portable enough” and gives me real horsepower when I need it.

I flew SF -> NY -> SF with the MinisForum and a portable monitor as carry-on. Everything fit in a Trader Joe’s tote bag. I even presented a conference talk using that setup.

For ~$2k total, you can buy:

- a MacBook Air

- a small PC + one or two portable monitors

- and still have money left

IMO the era of $2-3–4k “do-everything” laptops is over. I don't see how and why they're competitive.

Frotag3• 7 months ago

I have a Framework 16 from one of the early batches (2023, think it was ~1000usd).

Not only does [the spacers] look weird, you can also feel the gap and edges when resting your palm on them ... and the edges are quite sharp. If you have arm hairs you may consider shaving them off or risk getting them stuck. I also suspect gunk will build up in these edges over time. There's also a practical problem: due to the flex of the spacers if you try to hold the laptop on its sides it will actually "wobble" a bit. Combined with the weight I suspect that unless you hold on to this laptop for dear life, you will at some point drop it.

I can confirm the spacers are raised with an edge (though sharp might be overstating it). It's even at a slightly different height than the touchpad, which is probably more defect than intentional. But I'm not picky about the aesthetics so I don't mind the lines / colors.

Can't say I've had issues with the spacers actually flexing or accumulating gunk though. And I carry it one-handed by gripping the corner with the spacer all the time.

The keycaps are a little mushy, which isn't too bad but not great either.

Yeah this is an apt description. My biggest gripe is that the keycaps are near impossible to remove / clean without breaking something.

The display isn't terrible, but it's not great either.

I had the chance to compare my framework (ips, 165hz, 2560x1600) with some newer laptops recently (3x oled, 2x ips). I was pretty impressed with the colors, very little difference compared to the OLEDs and much better than the shitty IPSs. Text was as sharp as the 3k OLEDs and sharper than the 2k OLEDs. But OLEDs (obviously) had the advantage for darker / high-contrast images.

I didn't do any proper testing of battery usage, but it seems to be on par with other Linux capable laptops based on my usage thus far. This means you'll likely be looking at 6-8 hours of battery per charge for average programming usage.

Pretty much. Tangent but the new intel ultra cpus (the ones that end with V) have amazing battery life. I clocked maybe 16 hours browsing the web / watching youtube.

For a premium price I expect a premium laptop, but the Framework 16 feels more like a €1200-€1500 laptop at best and certainly doesn't deliver a premium experience.

Yeah premium price without the specs and aesthetic to match. But I guess the premium is because of the modularity and (presumably) low production count. Plus I trust Framework's QA a hell of a lot more than any of the dozen HP / Lenovos I've owned. And it is nice that a failed keyboard / touchpad doesn't force me to buy a new machine (which has happened to me because of a spill).

kelnos9• 7 months ago

Tangent but the new intel ultra cpus (the ones that end with V) have amazing battery life.

Framework seems to offer the "H" variants only, though. Looking at specs, the "V" variants appear much lower performance and less capable. (Maybe a good trade off, but... YMMV.)

eigenspace• 7 months ago

The Framework 16 seems like a pretty unappealing device to me due to the bulk and cost, which is unfortunate. I have a 13 and absolutely love it, but the one thing is that I wish it had a direct PCI-e extension slot that I could use with an e-GPU. Thunderbolt is just too slow.

Im in a frustrating situation now where my laptop has a way faster CPU than my desktop, and my desktop has a way faster GPU than the laptop. I really wish I could use my big fancy GPU with my laptop without a massive performance loss.

could-of• 7 months ago

A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working, specifically the 5, 6, -, = and Delete keys. Sometimes I can get it working again by mashing one of them for a while, but it's not consistent.

I had the same problem on my X1 Carbon generation 6 and managed to fix it simply by disconnecting and reconnecting the keyboard ribbon cable. It's a very easy fix, the only thing you have to unscrew is the bottom cover.

YorickPeterse11• 7 months ago

I may be wrong here but IIRC at least with the 7th generation you have to disassemble the whole thing to get to the keyboard. I'll have to take a look though, because if it's really that simple then I may be able to make my life a bit easier. Thanks for the suggestion :)

juancn• 7 months ago

    The battery life doesn't appear to be all that better than conventional laptops when running Linux. This isn't entirely surprising because of a lot of the battery improvements on macOS are the result of the software and hardware integration, not just the hardware

The issue is the kernel here, not just the hardware. Linux power management is meh.

wellthisisgreat• 7 months ago

Variety is great, but idk why anyone would buy anything other than MacBook for programming or media work in the age of Apple Silicon. Unless they specifically need CUDA or a particular version of Linux or some Windows features, or actually want to tinker with/ tweak the computer continuously.

sdwr• 7 months ago

It's true, they're unbeatable as consumer products now, especially after Intel dropped the ball so hard

kelnos9• 7 months ago

I'm a programmer but I can't stand macOS, so a MacBook isn't an option, as much as I like the hardware. I've looked at Asahi Linux, but, while they've done an amazing job with no documentation, it doesn't meet my needs.

So Debian on a Framework 13 it is. And it's fine! I'd agree that Apple hardware is probably the best, but the difference doesn't really matter to me all that much in practice.

grigio• 7 months ago

Thanks for review, the framework is a great idea in theory but in practise is still raw

oldestofsports4• 7 months ago

Why would an OLED display not make sense in a low light livingroom situation? I really don’t understand it, what is the issue in this specific scenario?

layer8• 7 months ago

I think the author is confused here. Low-light conditions are one of the important use cases for OLED, due to the vastly better blacks.

tordrt• 7 months ago

Yeah doesn't make sense, if anything its the opposite.

Burn in is probably a valid concern though.

ziml773• 7 months ago

I probably should have returned mine. I still love the idea of the device, but the speakers, display, and trackpad are subpar. I get that I'm spoiled by the quality of a MacBook Pro in those areas, but they still feel worse than other laptops I've tried.

Also he says he's never heard the fans spin up but I've had the system spin the fans up very high and they get loud. And the spin-up was definitely valid the times when I checked because the device was extremely hot, I think from charging.

Now the laptop is being used as a server. Ended up being good for Jellyfin because I can have the GPU handle transcoding and tonemapping of 4K HDR movies.

systemtest• 7 months ago

Would be cool if Framework would sell speakers, a display, trackpad and housing comparable in quality to a MacBook Pro. It would have a high pricetag but you could slowly upgrade your machine. Especially since swapping out speakers or a trackpad is so easy.

Right now the Laptop 13 speaker kit is €20 but they could offer a €150 option that performs similar to a MacBook Pro for people who value sound.

ziml773• 7 months ago

They should be able to offer a better trackpad module (and I've been hoping that they eventually do). The speakers seem like a harder problem to solve. The acoustic engineering that goes into designing a good speaker involves every element that can interact with the sound waves, not just the driver itself.

duped• 7 months ago

The problem is you need correction EQ built into to the drivers tuned to the enclosure (in addition to loudspeakers that are also designed accounting for their directionality, position, and the volume of the enclosure).

shantara• 7 months ago

It's not only a matter of having better hardware (though it certainly helps a lot). For example, Apple does a lot of software tuning and tweaking to make the Macbook speakers sound as good as they do. And it's been fascinating to read the extent of work Asahi Linux had to do to recreate the software portion of Macbook's audio stack.

https://asahilinux.org/docs/sw/audio-userspace/ https://github.com/AsahiLinux/asahi-audio

RickyLahey3• 7 months ago

my tip to people who don't like mac os. buy a macbook pro, disable System Integrity Protection (SIP), gut the OS, live in the terminal and browser. works way better than linux (10h+ battery life, SoC with a lot of memory) and you will barely notice that you're on mac os.

It's not windows. there will be no forced updates and surprises.

ziml773• 7 months ago

Also install the GNU coreutils (or I guess uutils). If you're begrudgingly using macOS then you're going to hate the differences between BSD and GNU utilities.

realusername2• 7 months ago

Personally I just can't, I really hate the UI and the software stack.

Sure as long as you are in the terminal you don't notice it but at some point you are going to need to open Finder (and Finder really sucks, sorry) and you are going to need to install software and homebrew is in the same category as npm.

Hackbraten2• 7 months ago

and homebrew is in the same category as npm.

Homebrew runs against a curated and tested package repository maintained by a dedicated team of vetted maintainers.

NPM is free-for-all with zero curation. Anyone can upload whatever they want.

grimblee2• 7 months ago

I hate the fact the keyboard is non-standard, the mental hoop to jump between my normal keyboard on my desktop and the macbook pro one is a no-go.

I told my job I prefered an old lenovo thinkpad than this dumb, vendor-locked, thing.

RickyLahey3• 7 months ago

i hear you but the latency between the cpu and ram, the battery life, and the quality of software is way worth a few weird buttons to me. everything has downsides. Windows is completely ridiculous, and between Linux and Mac OS, well, I think it depends on your use case.

beeflet3• 7 months ago

Does this hack give me access to the source code?

RickyLahey3• 7 months ago

no. but it gives you access to good hardware and software that works well on it. the only combination of this kind.

jeffbee2• 7 months ago

Considering this customer's gripes, I might suggest the Lenovo Chromebook Plus 14. It's even lighter than their X1 Carbon, has great battery life, is silent, and has a spectacular display.

YegoBear• 7 months ago

So basically the same price as an already decently upgradable Thinkpad P1 G8 on sale, but with a terrible screen and janky chassis. Plus it costs about the same to upgrade as getting a new machine, but then you no longer have the ability to throw Linux on the old one and donate it to a school or less fortune person. Tough sell.

cdev_gl• 7 months ago

I can't speak to the rest of the text or the laptops themselves, but as someone who works with color reproducibility in video and print, those photos comparing colors of two different screens are worse than useless.

Uncalibrated screens photographed at different angles in different lighting conditions are not a valid basis for comparison. If you want properly calibrated displays, you need to purchase hardware (datacolor makes one such device) and calibrate them.

Even "factory-calibrated" monitors will benefit from this, because the quality of that calibration varies widely and your color reproduction is going to vary based on ambient lighting conditions etc.

Groxx2• 7 months ago

I can add anecdata for the factory profile being very over-red - it's quite obvious out of the box. Not as bad as many Samsung OLED phones you see in stores (typically set to some crazy "enhanced" mode), but it's certainly closer to them than a calibrated screen.

One thing that has bugged me for a while though: why isn't it possible to make my own color profile by hand? Everything seems to imply that you can only get a profile definition file from a calibration device, and I don't have one... but I can eyeball it significantly better than the default profile. Is there something software out there that will let me adjust my curves, like the OS already does with night-mode color balance changes?

GranPC• 7 months ago

I too would be interested in such a tool. I've had some luck finding close-enough ICC profiles, but it would be great to dial it in.

YorickPeterse11• 7 months ago

The photos are just meant to illustrate the difference to the reader, not to be anything scientific. Of course manual calibration is ideal, but having a somewhat sensible default calibration isn't much to ask for and is in fact something many other laptops do just fine.

daviddever23box• 7 months ago

Problem is, display profile support for Wayland has been, at best, spotty until recently - and, there should be multiple accurate targets available on any good display panel.

My factory-seconds F13 (using 11th-gen Intel, still the best in terms of power savings) shipped with the older glossy display, which had a known, disclosed-as-cheaper LUT issue at lower brightness settings. After a couple of calibration rounds, it is spot-on and my go-to PC laptop.

Decent keyboard, too.

Of course, things are often more expensive in Europe (compared to the US) for zero good reason, so the F16 will always be at a proportional disadvantage compared to the F13. You may find that a much better fit.

a_sulvanite• 7 months ago

I am aware that most people don't have any idea of what "display calibration" is actually about (which is primarily about display profiling), but the observation that the "The colors of the display are overly saturated, with reds in particular looking more intense than they should." seems to be to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what is happening here.

The framework 16 has a screen that is more capable of displaying reds than either of your two comparison screens (X1 Carbon 2019 seems to have a sub-sRGB gamut, while the Eizo CS2740 seems to be designed to match AdobeRGB [which has a red primary that matches sRGB]). This is by design, as framework claims 100% DCI-P3 gamut coverage (which has a more saturated red primary than sRGB/AdobeRGB).

In terms of red saturation, the framework monitor is literally displaying superiority over the other two by demonstrating the capability to show more colours, yet it is being framed in a negative light here as being something that is "over saturated".

The responsibility to dictate how much of the display's capabilities (i.e. red saturation) to use to lies squarely in the software (and their associated colour-management systems), which require a display profile (ICC) that accurately models the display's capabilities (profiling), and thus allows colour-managed applications to appropriately scale their source colourspace values into the target display colourspace values. These display profiles are generated via colorimeters or spectrophotometers using specialized software.

Once an appropriate profile is loaded (for each screen), the output image should look identical on all screens that are capable of displaying the colours in the image (e.g. in an sRGB case, all three screens show show the same image, save for maybe the X1 Carbon being slightly desaturated). Correspondingly, attempting to display an image with a DCI-P3 space (that fully utilizes that space) will cause undersaturation on both your X1 Carbon and the Eizo CS2740 (i.e. the ability to show more red saturation is strictly a plus).

If your critique lies in the fact that framework laptop does not ship an appropriate ICC profile for their monitor, then fair enough. But I don't agreement with the statement that "somewhat sensible default calibration isn't much to ask for and is in fact something many other laptops do just fine." I don't believe many laptop manufacturer's ship reasonable ICC profiles at all, and mostly just rely on either the consumer liking the oversaturated look or by having their panels only be rated for around sRGB where implicit colour management (i.e. doing absolutely no colour management and having it work merely because the source and the target are the same space).

It is entirely possible that you do understand all of this and I'm making assumptions about potential misconceptions where none exist. However, you seem to have alluded to using Firefox as your main browser (which is not colour-managed by default) and your Eizo CS2740 being "properly calibrated (at the hardware level at least)," which to be suggests that you might be susceptible the misconception that I have pointed out. If this is not the case, then I deeply apologize.

rewgs2• 7 months ago

Putting aside anything specific to Framework, this article really puts into perspective just how piss poor the laptop market is right now.

Macs have fantastic hardware, but of course only really run macOS. The future of Asahi Linux is very questionable and, like the author, is not something I'm interested in relying on. I don't hate macOS by any means but I much prefer running Arch with Hyprland.

PC laptop hardware is just shit in comparison. Like the author, my X1 Carbon (Gen 11) has keys that intermittently fail, and the cooling is pretty bad (I actually love the OLED display, though, and don't really understand the author's concerns here).

I haven't found any non-Mac laptops that beat the X1 Carbon line, though (relatively low bar that it is). Frameworks are cool if you are fine with the tradeoffs, but personally I'm just not -- I much prefer to tinker with desktops/servers, and am totally fine with laptops being a physically-closed "appliance," as long as that results in great battery life, cooling, and adequate performance (I can always offload heavy tasks to my desktop if need be).

Which is all to say: what I want is Mac equivalent hardware that can reliably run Linux.

For now, I've landed on using my extremely beefy Arch desktop when at home, and my M1 MacBook Air (which is still running great 5 years on) when mobile. Even accepting that I'll be using an Apple device when mobile, though, there's still room for improvement in this setup: I'd love LTE support (no, a hot spot isn't a good replacement), a nano-texture display (which appears to be locked to the MacBook Pro line), and either an even smaller footprint (like the old 12-inch MacBook) or a little bit of active cooling to offset the performance regressions in macOS. An iPad might make sense, but I own one and frankly hate it due to OS limitations, such as only a single stream of audio at a time (which causes lots of bugs -- watching a YouTube video while scrolling Reddit will cause the YouTube video to pause whenever you scroll past a video on Reddit, even if it's muted), a lack of terminal, etc. I want a "real" OS, so tablets are out of the question entirely.

I don't understand why absolutely zero PC manufacturers have even tried to take on Apple's laptop offerings. Sure, Apple Silicon is great, but Intel and AMD have done an admirable job at increasing battery efficiency since its release; it's not the only component that makes Mac laptops so great. I'm sure these manufacturers know what they're doing in this regard and have decided it doesn't make business sense to take on Apple. But man, I just wish someone would at least try.

ruralfam• 7 months ago

1000% agree with this. Been using Macs for decades, but now prefer Linux. But Mac hardware is just so much better. Funny note: Sorta just for fun I bought an old Mac Mini ($25) and installed Mac, Windows, and Linux Mint on it. Fun device that is actually pretty useful with a KVM letting me use it seamlessly with my main Mac (also providing a shared external drive). Fingers crossed that the next leader at Apple after Tim has a Nadella-like moment deciding that Linux can be a friend not a foe.

neogodless2• 7 months ago

I don't know how many laptops people own to rule out every possible model. My own experience is owning several various versions of Lenovo Legion for gaming and work, and currently an Acer Nitro 16.

None of them have given me a single issue.

Great screens, great keyboards, great performance, easy to upgrade the SSD or RAM. Short of really intense gaming, the fans aren't audible.

And they are all around $1000-1200 USD. All with AMD CPUs and Nvidia GPUs. Doesn't seem like they are unicorns.

rewgs2• 7 months ago

...and battery life that is nowhere near a Mac. And consistently shit speakers.

I'm sorry but if you can't see that a $1,000 Acer doesn't compare to a Mac by any conceivable hardware metric then we don't have much to talk about.

turtletontine• 7 months ago

Framework 16 owner here, had mine for a year and a half. While most of this post is also true in my experience, I just don’t care. These are largely small cosmetic nitpicks that you need to look for to notice. The only complaints here that I really share are the jankiness of the spacers (a little jarring at first, but now I’m used to it), and the speakers really are noticeably worse than any of my other devices. So? I don’t watch movies on it, or listen to music, that’s what I have a TV and headphones for.

Seems inarguable that you can get a much more “premium” laptop for about the same cost. But I didn’t buy a framework for a “premium” feel… I was hoping to buy the last laptop I’ll ever need. And so far I’m happy with the result!

PS: the battery life is by far the best of any laptop I’ve owned. Maybe that just shows that my previous ones were junk, but I’m quite happy with it

PPS: I should note my employer was willing to buy it for me, so price was much less of a concern. Not everyone is so lucky ofc

ta9000• 7 months ago

Or just buy a MBP and use MacOS and not worry about any of these problems. I use Linux for everything but my laptop, but I’m not about to deal with a subpar experience when decent laptops are already so expensive.

chrsw• 7 months ago

I'm still chugging along on a Dell XPS Developer Edition that came with Ubuntu 20.04 preinstalled. It's not as repairable as a Framework but it's been very reliable.

If I had to get a new laptop for personal use today I'd probably go for an X1 Carbon. Those seem to have very good luck with Linux even without OEM installs.

grimblee2• 7 months ago

Tbh I just bought a 250€ refurb laptop, it has 14k cpu benchmark and 16gb ram, 256gb ssd.

Honestly do you need more to do terminal emulation? No, you don't.

Ok I won't play bg3 on this but that's good, it means I'll be productive !

endorphine• 7 months ago

I was in a similar situation to OP: my Carbon X1 Gen 8 keys, notably `/` and some arrows keys, stopped functioning. Sometimes they did, but it was very erratic.

Luckily, when I replaced the battery (got a lot from iFixit) and tightened all other screws, the keys magically started working again.

Saved me quite a few dollars.

MassPikeMike• 7 months ago

OP wrote:

"My current laptop is an aging X1 Carbon generation 7... A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working. I decided it was time to look for a replacement."

Isn't that like deciding to replace your bike because some of the cables are rusted? Like a new set of cables, a new keyboard is a small expense compared to a whole new laptop.

Like replacing bike cables, swapping in a new Carbon X7 keyboard might be slightly challenging for an amateur. iFixit calls the keyboard replacement "moderate" in difficulty [1] taking about an hour with a new keyboard running about a hundred bucks. But it would be a simple job for a repair shop. So it seems hard to justify the expense of a whole new one rather than just the new part.

Of course, sometimes you just want a new laptop, because the bike analogy breaks down a little: unlike bikes, newer ones are inherently faster.

[1] https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+X1+Carbon+7th+G...

selkin2• 7 months ago

Your analogy won’t hold scrutiny with a competitive cyclist: newer bikes are also faster given the same rider, even if not as meaningfully as a new CPU.

And modern bikes do make with the need for cable replacement or breakage (hydro lines and electric shifting, while more expensive to service, also require much less of it).

izacus• 7 months ago

Life tip: Noone appreciates and there's no utility in nitpicking analogies. They're never the actual point of the message and it's incredibly rude and socially inept to lock onto a side quest like that.

boneitis• 7 months ago

Generation 7. I realize you acknowledged the hardware age, but it's really the difference in my own workflows and experience.

I'm still on a Gen 8 i7 (with 40 GB RAM, to boot) T480s. I take pretty good care of my machine, so it's still in superb physical shape.

But, given today's massive webapps and video calls while having my workspace programs open, I'm in Hell. A failing keyboard would probably push me to repurpose the current machine and upgrade as well (and still replace the keyboard for kicks).

If I wasn't strapped for cash, I would have bought an AMD Framework eons ago.

nottorp2• 7 months ago

Since I use my laptop for programming and often use it in low light conditions such as a living room with dimmed lights in the evening, OLED just doesn't make sense.

Huh? I thought OLED would make a lot of sense with a pure black background theme in your IDE. Less light in your eyes?

Groxx2• 7 months ago

I'm quite happy with mine, and like the keyboard in general though I can see why a coming from a decent Thinkpad would feel like a downgrade. I like it a lot better than the "butterfly" keyboards Apple insisted on, however, and have used quite a few more-expensive laptops with much worse keyboards. And I have gotten WAY more use out of the swappable ports than I expected, that's a killer feature imo.

The price is a "put your money where your mouth is" purchase for me on repairability - it's absolutely not competitive with a same-priced machine. But it's not too crazy if you upgrade or replace damaged parts, the significantly lower costs there add up extremely quickly.

The speakers though. Holy cow. They're truly awful and I think they drag down the entire product - put them over 50% and they blow out the sound and distort extremely badly. They really need to change them, I'd happily pay a premium to get something more usable.

desireco42• 7 months ago

I have the similar ThinkPad like the author, except Gen 3, I7, 16Gb. Have Omarchy on it, works like a charm, even camera is not bad. Battery works but I can plug it in the same dock my macbook is (two usb-c dock).

While you can change keyboard or battery on your Thinkpad, they are cheap enough, around $500 that you can just get a new one. I get why he wanted Framework, they say 13" are much better and more useful deal then 16".

I wish Framework 12" is better, but it is not. Maybe Apple can dazzle us at this form factor.

INTPenis• 7 months ago

As a long time Linux user I only recently tried my first framework (12), and shortly after got the 13 too because I realized that this is the laptop for me.

I wish I had realized it earlier.

But it's so refreshing as a linux user to use a laptop actually designed for linux, and have everything work so great out of box like battery and wifi.

Sure I've always used Laptops famously Linux-friendly, but it was still hit or miss, especially with new releases, and you always felt like you were breaking warranty somehow.

The entire experience buying a Framework, and using it, has been amazing. I'm hooked.

tomComb• 7 months ago

Yes, that does sound good, but if someone wants an inexpensive laptop that is also “actually designed for Linux”, they should keep in mind Chromebooks. I don’t think of these as competitors to the framework, but as a lower end alternative that is usually overlooked.

paulbgd• 7 months ago

kinda similar experience with my thinkpad t14s gen 2 amd (what a name.) I like framework's philosophy, but there's so many refurbished business laptops out there (many unused) that I like upgrading every few years to a 3-4 yr old laptop.

Getting a laptop that's linux certified has been better than I thought, things like sleep and power management "Just Work" whereas on other laptops I'd spend more time configuring TLP or even just hibernating every time because I couldn't get a good sleep experience. Hope this inspires the other manufacturers to work on getting this working out of the box.

andreashaerter• 7 months ago

I've been using ThinkPads with Linux since the T410, T420, T430, T480s, and several others. For me, they've consistently delivered an "everything works out of the box" experience with Ubuntu and/or Fedora, including things like SmartCard readers. I'm currently on a Lenovo X13 Gen 6 (AMD), and the only component that required any tinkering was the 5G WWAN due to FCC unlock issues (see: https://github.com/lenovo/lenovo-wwan-unlock/issues/68 ).

One thing many people don't realize is that some Lenovo models can be ordered with Fedora pre-installed. That's a pretty strong signal for Linux compatibility.

I've been watching Framework for years, and among my Linux-using colleagues we have ThinkPads, Frameworks, and Tuxedo machines, so comparisons are easy. I really want to like Framework, but recurring firmware issues, noise (!!), and the lack of built-in 4G/5G antennas have pushed me toward Lenovo every time. That said, I do like the modular idea. I even use a small USB-C adapter permanently to protect the port from wear, almost all docking/monitor issues I've seen over the years came down to worn cables or ports. In that sense, Framework's modules are genuinely appealing.

InTheArena2• 7 months ago

I ordered a framework desktop and got it "by accident" - in that I forgot that I had put down a deposit on a fully maxed out Ai MAX395+. After a few days of using it, I decided to keep it, and given how incredibly expensive 8tb NVMe drives and DDR5-8000 has beocme since then (even if you could get DDR-8000 on desktop form factor) - I don't regret that decision at all. It's a great little box - and AI is getting closer to colser to being a good experience.

That said, I have run into a set of frustrations with it: 1) The PCIEx is completely useless on the board. Forget about room for the slot - it's not exposed, there isn't enough exposure inside of the case. This is a real miss - It seems perfect for a occulink port or another USB4 port. 2) USB4 + PCIe tunneling was a mess. Seems to be working better now. 3) There are some real thermal envelopes that are resulting in similar systems with the exact same architecture running 10% faster then this box. That's a big bummer - apparently it's tunable in their bios, but framework really limits the bios settings. 4) Randomly right now, the latest kernel on Ubuntu seems to freeze on boot. No idea why - I can move to the older .5 kernel, and it;s working.

All that said, for what it offers - Framework offers a lot. I really honestly believe that either Mac or Framework is the way to go if you need significant compute power on the desktop.

summa_tech2• 7 months ago

I feel ya on the PCIe slot. And the on-board NICs are sub-par Realtek garbage, unacceptable both on features and quality. However, you can fit a small SFP+ card inside if you (a) cut out a correctly shaped hole in your case, and (b) turn the fan on at 40% instead of letting it turn off. The card will sit at a small angle but work fine, and with some 3D printing I even got a mounting bracket in to keep it stable. A lower profile connector, like USB 4, might fit outright.

InTheArena2• 7 months ago

Yeah, I was thinking of running a Occulink connector to the side of the case, the problem is that this would need a riser, and I don't think that occulink - even with a redriver, would do well with two additional physical connectors.

On the 5GB realtek - i think their 5G is far better then their 1g or 2.5g devices where.

mfer• 7 months ago

I bought an early framework 13. It cost a little more. I’ve since upgraded the main board to get a faster/newer experience. The overall cost has been less than 2 laptops.

Some of this depends if you’re playing the long game

TylerE• 7 months ago

On the other hand, if you'd bought two laptops... you'd have another laptop.

guipsp• 7 months ago

While that is true, it's not like I can use two laptops at once

trueismywork• 7 months ago

The Framework 16 weights about 2.2 kg according to my kitchen scale. For comparison, my X1 Carbon weights 1.3 kg. That may not seem like a big difference, but the extra kilogram makes carrying around the Framework 16 more difficult. In particular, I don't feel comfortable carrying it with just one hand while this isn't a problem with the X1.

The author wanted a bigger laptop but the straight goes and compares it to x1 carbon.

Modular ports

Like the keyboard area the design is a bit janky though, with visible lines/space between the adapters and the case, though this at least is something you won't notice unless you're explicitly looking for it.

Not sure how you can make things like this not to have any lines for what its worth. So not sure what author is going for.

The author doesnt know what he wants and doesn't know what framework provides.

kelnos9• 7 months ago

Yeah I never get this complaint about 16" laptops. Hell, I don't really get 16" laptops at all: they're huge! You're making a very strange trade off: they're only barely portable, and you lose a lot of the power and flexibility you'd get with a desktop.

Aurornis5• 7 months ago

they're only barely portable,

Maybe for a very small person or someone who strictly travels light? But I’ve never had any problem with 15” or 16” laptops even while traveling internationally.

and you lose a lot of the power and flexibility you'd get with a desktop

This isn’t really true any more unless your desktop is a gaming monster or full of multiple drives or something. I can have a 128GB RAM laptop with ultra fast CPU on the go now and it’s not a problem.

kmeisthax• 7 months ago

The majority of 16"+ machines are being made specifically as portable desktops. The target audience is college kids. If you live in a dorm that you have to move in and out of yearly, it is leagues easier to travel with a bulky laptop than even a small form factor desktop machine, because of all the peripherals needed to run it.

CoastalCoder• 7 months ago

My vision gets worse as I age. A larger screen lets me continue working with the same amount of code, etc. as when I was younger with a smaller screen.

dustbunny• 7 months ago

I have a 17" XPS and it's great as a computer for that floor of the house. Ie: for sitting at the kitchen table or the couch. I have a 13" for portability which is great because it's so small and light.

MacBook pros these days are really heavy. Having a MBP and an Air is actually a fair inventory but the MBP is just so expensive.

I do like the desktop form factor of keyboard and monitor but the 17"er is nice to use while I'm up making coffee in the morning or while sitting on the couch at night

stevage• 7 months ago

I have one. It's my main computer. I can use it on a desk, on my lap, at a cafe.

I find smaller laptops much harder to understand because they compromise the coding experience so much.

Dylan168079• 7 months ago

I don't understand what people mean when they say "barely portable" about a device that weighs less than 10 pounds. You can't use a big laptop one handed in midair, but that's not "portability". And it can't be a weight hauling problem when small children can handle that much. What is the issue?

javier22• 7 months ago

im an average guy and carrying a 2.2kg laptop is no issue. Its well worth it for the days where I work a full day from the laptop.

vbezhenar• 7 months ago

They are perfectly portable, if you would compare them with PC tower + display + UPS.

integralid• 7 months ago

My Lenovo P17 saw 5 continents and tens of countries. And it's useful to have 128GBs of RAM (i use VMs a lot).

YorickPeterse11• 7 months ago

The author doesnt know what he wants and doesn't know what framework provides.

Indeed, I just pressed a "Buy now" button without a moment's thought. Clearly the fault is all mine.

MostlyStable• 7 months ago

All of the complaints you had are extremely reasonable reasons to not want the Framework 16 (or any Framework). While I personally am quite happy with mine, I very much believe that it is not for everyone, and in fact has quite a niche audience. That being said, most of your complaints should have been obvious from viewing images or reading any of the numerous reviews. So yes, I agree with the GP comment that you seem to have bought the computer without knowing what you wanted and/or what the Framework offered/was.

Being more expensive, heavier, and worse "fit and finish" is pretty much the tradeoff for upgradeability and repairability. Not everyone values those things to the same degree, and deciding that those tradeoffs are not worth it is completely reasonable. I just don't understand how you could get wind up buying one without knowing those were the tradeoffs you were making. I've read almost every one of these complaints in previous reviews. It's not exactly a secret.

LarsAlereon• 7 months ago

So basically this article is 50/50 insightful and helpful feedback from a Framework customer, mixed with gripes by someone who bought the wrong laptop for them. Part of the reason this is getting a sour response is that most laptop companies don't even offer the choice of a larger, more expandable model. Framework does, and you bought it despite not actually wanting that, then dinged it for the compromises inherent in the design you chose. It seems like the 13.5" Framework was the obvious fit for your needs?

To use a silly food analogy, imagine there's a popular salsa company. The customer base has been clamoring for them to release an extra-hot salsa that also has corn in it, though that's a polarizing combination. A purchaser gives it a bad review because, in addition to some very legitimate critiques of the spice flavors, it's too hot and corn doesn't belong in salsa. People who wanted the extra-hot salsa with corn have a point when they say that person should have reviewed the medium salsa without corn.

orthoxerox2• 7 months ago

Not sure how you can make things like this not to have any lines for what its worth. So not sure what author is going for.

Machine them with wire EDM, like these executive desktop toys? Yes, I know the seamless effect is achieved by polishing the two parts together afterwards, but you can still achieve a practically gapless fit.

whateverboat• 7 months ago

One bump in your laptop and you are shit out of luck then though. Removable parts imply that there needs to be extremely slight wiggle room (not to the level rightly criticized by the blog post author, but it cannot completely go away).

javier22• 7 months ago

My macbook pro 16'' is very heavy too at ~2.2kg

emeril• 7 months ago

can't he just replace the keyboard? I'd imagine that won't be too hard?

YorickPeterse11• 7 months ago

Did you miss the following parts?

    Given my past experiences with X1 Carbon laptops breaking outside of warranty and the frustration that comes with replacing their components, I decided it was time to look for a replacement.
    [...]
    There are also some other issues with the X1 line in general, such as poor CPU cooling and the absolute nightmare that is opening them up to replace parts or clean them properly.

Maintaining an X1 is certainly possible, but it's incredibly frustrating and based on my past experiences with this series I strongly suspect other components will also fail in the near future.

schmuckonwheels• 7 months ago

Framework 16 has a 6 port maximum.

That means if you want:

- HDMI

- Ethernet (a must if you're doing real work)

- an audio jack (why is this even an option?)

- SD reader

- USB-A port

You are allowed (1) USB-C port. This is in a > $2200 laptop.

$200 netbooks had all this (minus the Ethernet port) standard 10 years ago.

This is unacceptable. An artificial limit imposed by the mechanicals of the inefficiently large port modules - an idea that should have never left a whiteboard, let alone made it into a production laptop.

On the bright side you are forced into configuring them as all USB-C, you can reuse the man purse you used to carry all your dongles from an earlier generation Macbook.

mixmastamyk2• 7 months ago

I think they have another USB-C on the back if you get the upgraded video module. I wish all desktop replacement laptops had copious ports on the back like my Dell from ~2010 did. Who wants video cables jutting out sideways across your desk?

beeflet3• 7 months ago

I don't really use ethernet, or an audio jack, or an SD card reader regularly. I just use wifi and bluetooth, and I suspect most people do as well.

You can also just keep the extra dongles in your backpack and plug them into any open USB-C ports, or just unplug the dongles to free up more USB-C ports as needed.

KennyBlanken• 7 months ago

Since I use my laptop for programming and often use it in low light conditions such as a living room with dimmed lights in the evening, OLED just doesn't make sense.

What? Low light is ideal for OLED compared to most LCDs where in low light contrast is poor due to bleed-through on the black areas via the backlight. The problem here isn't the laptop, it's between the keyboard and chair.

I narrowed it down to two options: Buy a refurbished M1 or M2 Macbook and run Asahi Linux Buy a Framework

...or stop being a dogmatic baby about your OS and run MacOS, which is infinitely better than Linux as a desktop OS?

I looked at some other brands but it appears that in 2025 there's just aren't many good options for Linux users

A market of less than 1% has terrible options? *gasp*

The only people still using Linux on desktop are people who think that *twenty five years* into "the year of the linux desktop" this will be the year that Linux doesn't stop being the worst option for a desktop OS.

If 2/3rds of the current linux distros hung up the hat and went to go help with other distros, there _might_ actually be progress on this front - but the nerds are too interested in fighting over asinine personal preference type things nobody else cares about, to actually make a distro that works properly and reliably. The Linux world is so hopelessly fragmented and there's thousands of people doing the same work as at least 6 other people all because they think their particular way of installing a linux package is better or their file layout is best.

orthecreedence• 7 months ago

I'm on a Framework 13. Aside from the wretched 4:3 screen size (which I knew in advance, it was a tradeoff, but my god I miss 16:10) I really do like it. No battery issues, the thing is incredibly fast. I've had the pleasure of repairing parts of it (screen, keyboard) and it has been super easy. The touchpad's button click could be a little more "tuned" (I miss physical separate buttons), but that's my only functional gripe.

But seriously, make a 14" 16:10 Framework please. I will buy a new one just for that.

mixmastamyk2• 7 months ago

The 3:2 screen on the 13" is fantastic, I disagree and won't buy another shorter screen again.

mlacks• 7 months ago

kind of short sided on the laptop choices. M1/2 for Asahi or Framework. What?

Plenty of options from HP, not to mention German-assembled Tuxedo, and System76. Even moreso if going used

Const-me• 7 months ago

A new keyboard for X1 Carbon 7th gen is available on e-bay for the price of $50-100.

A faulty keyboard is IMO not a good reason to replace a whole computer.

g947o• 7 months ago

Knowing my luck I'd also run into OLED burn-in the moment the warranty expires.

Not being aware of the author's history of luck, that's an extraordinary claim. OLED screens are commonplace in modern devices -- phones, tablets, laptops and desktop monitors etc. If burn-in is still a real and significant concern, manufacturers would not have released so many devices, often with OLED screen as the only option. You would see videos on YouTube and TikTok warning you about OLED screens everywhere.

If anything, battery life is a bigger issue.

I really wish the author had done more research before making the decision or writing this piece.

cycomanic2• 7 months ago

I don't understand the author, on the one hand he complains about the repairability of the thinkpads (which is weird in itself, they are still the most repairable laptops bar framework, especially because it's trivial to find resellers for pretty much all the parts. If finding all the screws is a problem, then you can just look at the repair manuals which are freely available. But after complaining about repairability he the looks at apples as alternative, which are like orders of magnitude less repairable than thinkpads.

avidphantasm• 7 months ago

I know, the repairability isn’t great, and they’re not upgradable at all. macOS can be annoying and restrictive. But life is short, so I just buy MacBook Pros. I wasted too many hours in my 20s getting Linux to work on the desktop (not to mention a laptop).

mgaunard• 7 months ago

The X1 Carbon is fine, not sure what is wrong with the 2k IPS display.

Do you need 4k for a 13 inch laptop?

ahachete3• 7 months ago

I have two Framework 13 DIY, top of the line (Ryzen AI 9 HX 370, 96 GB of RAM, 2TB WD BLACK SN850X). Well, TBH just one, the other one was stolen with less than one month, but that's a different story.

Can't be happier with this choice.

First of all, now I feel confident I can easily tinker with my laptop, open it and replace any components. No, I'm not repeating their Marketing, I'm truly confident now. Some months ago my previous Lenovo X1 Carbon stopped charging and I was scared as hell. Sure, I have everything in version control and cloud drives blah blah blah but if it doesn't charge, it's dead. Sure, I can extract the NVMe (is it easy at all?) and rsync the data (for a faster recovery) but is that easy, feasible, can I do it on the go (X1 stopped charging while I was on a trip).

The Framework 13 DIY I built it in less than 10 minutes. I can easily disassemble again in a heartbeat. This is priceless.

Other than this, build quality is higher than expected, and several other people said exactly the same when I showed my unit. Powerful? Most than any desktop out there. Perfectly portable. Works well OOB with Linux. What else do I need? Nothing, it's my laptop and will be the next one.

(Actually the next one may be cheaper, as I may only need to replace the motherboard, we will see)

YorickPeterse11• 7 months ago

What's the battery life you're getting out of the Ryzen AI 9?

ahachete3• 7 months ago

TBH I haven't deeply tested it yet. Laptop is a few days old and I'm still "automating the install" (Ubuntu autoinstall + Ansible tasks for post-installation including BIOS upgrade and install Nix + Nix and home manager to install everything else; post(s) upcoming), so I haven't done "production use" yet.

Anyway, and while I love long battery life, it's not my main concern. Most of the time I have a power socket available and/or a nice portable battery pack that does the job. Laptop feels so much faster than my X1 Carbon that everything else seems to be a distant second feature.

P.S. Hi, Yorick, again, not the first time we cross paths ;)

dachris• 7 months ago

Writing this on a first-gen 13 DIY, so it's already a bit dated. I've already added additional RAM and swapped in a much bigger SSD (really underestimated how much space you need if you heavily use docker and VMs).

The 1st year was a bit bumpy with 4k monitors over a USB-C hub being somewhat flaky. Ever since a clean Ubuntu reinstall, I'm very happy, no complaints whatsoever.

Sure, it costs more, but the combo of perfectly running Linux, giving me the piece of mind of repairability and easy upgrades for me justifies a higher price.

On the other hand, I'm not willing to pay the kind of premium you have with Apple products, where for incremental steps in more RAM or SSD you pay a multiple of the off-the-shelf price of the added space.

ragall3• 7 months ago

You do realise you can upgrade RAM and SSDs, as well as replace most components on ThinkPads too, right ?

molarmanful• 7 months ago

I've been a very happy FW16 user, so much so that I got my partner an FW13 to replace her very old and very bulky gaming laptop. Similar specs to yours + AMD dGPU module. Recently cleaned the innards and upgraded my mainboard to the HX 370 in ~20min with zero issues. Compared to what I've been reading on various forums/threads, my experience as a whole has been virtually free of problems! FW + NixOS is a potent combo that squarely satisfies the kind of configurability/overall experience I need/want in the tech I use. (And perhaps more importantly, it handily assuages my paranoid mind.)

makeitdouble11• 7 months ago

two thousand Euros

There is a lot of weight put into this number...and it seems that everyone forgot why US makers prices have inflated to this point. It's not to polish the "premium" experience, it's tariffs spread on the whole customer base.

brachkow• 7 months ago

Laptops are compared to other laptops availiable on market. Apple sells a entry line of their premium laptops at 1000$. And these are VERY good laptops.

makeitdouble11• 7 months ago

Setting aside opinions about the product, the first 16" mac is around 2849 euros in the EU

https://www.apple.com/be-fr/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-pouc...

poisonborz• 7 months ago

Rather subjective. I'm really happy with a used "16 gaming laptop, top performance, memory ssd extendable, extremely good display for ~1200€. Build quality is "ok" and creeks a bit, but magnitudes better value than a Thinkpad/Mac, even used ones.

zeckalpha• 7 months ago

Display being bright even on the lowest setting:

I wonder about rshifting the raster bytes...

pech0rin• 7 months ago

I ran linux for 15 years on a range of different machines. Desktop the most successfully. For laptops I tried everything but once I switched to a mac I’ve never gone back. The hardware is at least twice as good as any other laptop.

I’ve seen framework getting a lot of mind share recently. Especially with DHH singing their praises. I have come to loathe apple software over the years but can’t get over terrible build quality.

I thought framework was supposed to be the premium linux option but after reading this it looks same quality as all those windows turned linux machines.

ekianjo• 7 months ago

I think if you compare on price alone, yeah there are quality tradeoffs when you purchase a Framework. They don't get everything right, and often an equivalent model from Lenovo or HP is going to feel superior. But... buying Framework is putting a stake into having somewhat open laptops that you can service and upgrade yourself. Lenovo laptops have become less and less reparable (following the MacBook formula) and it's very important a company like Framework continues to exist.

At the same time, this kind of user feedback is very important, to help Framework identify the areas where they can or have to improve. Framework is a very reactive company and while hardware takes time, they typically address issues in their next models.

Tade02• 7 months ago

I don't recommended getting a Framework to anyone who isn't interested specifically in repairability, as it has its quirks and doesn't feel like something which should cost this much. I've broken something in every laptop I've ever owned (+the butterfly keyboard in a company 2019 MBP), so to me it's an important feature.

That being said my previous device - a "gaming" laptop - was essentially e-waste two years after purchase because firmware updates stopped despite there being unresolved issues and the official parts store didn't even have basic items like fans, which I had to get from AliExpress instead. Eventually it was the cheapo Intel SSD which did it in, as it slowed to a crawl from being 80% full for too long.

I think there's a problem with my 1yo FW16's keyboard as during intense gaming the "D" key temporarily just stops responding, but if it ever fails completely I can order a new keyboard and once it arrives replace it literally within a minute.

Other parts take longer, but the general idea is that any sort of malfunction is manageable.

This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't sitting in the bottom right corner of your eye when you look at the display.

This is about the power LED and it makes me wonder how dark is the author's environment? Is that healthy?

piskov12• 7 months ago

The thing about macbooks is:

- dead silence

- unbelievably good battery life

- tank sturdiness

- great performance

- amazing screen

- amazing speakers

- god-tier trackpad

- repairability in a sense you’ll always find parts (albeit not cheap) and someone to service it

—

It is basically uncontested in a laptop space.

I would only consider windows / linux on a desktop pc

Tade02• 7 months ago

repairability in a sense you’ll always find parts (albeit not cheap) and someone to service it

I'm sorry but that is just false. Various organisations assessing repairability consistently give MacBooks poor scores for having soldered components, glue everywhere and complicated assembly.

Meanwhile I have one screwdriver for my Framework, which came with the laptop and I can use it to replace any part, including those which are soldered on the MacBook.

654wak654• 7 months ago

The only downside is that you have to run macOS

reisse• 7 months ago

The thing about Macbooks is people tend to compare them with all of the regular laptops, of which 95% are in entirely another market segment. Even worse, some regular laptops can vary from "cheap shit" to "good machine" under one name, depending on the options selection (looking at you Lenovo). Hats off to Apple, having very narrow selection of models with very limited customization options helps them greatly.

There are models from Dell, Lenovo, and ASUS which have better screens than Macs, better design and build quality (subjectively), on-par performance and just slightly worse battery life. It just takes time and effort to find them.

(also, am I the only one who finds Apple trackpads _uncomfortable_ to touch?)

tourmalinetaco5• 7 months ago

You forgot:

- inadequate cooling

- fried NAND chips

- screens spontaneously cracking

- flexgate (not to be confused with bendgate)

And that’s only a subset of the engineering failures with MacBooks. You even bring it up in your post: the only reason they have “dead silence” is because Apple is literally baking your laptop and leaving you to pay the bill.

I’ll give Apple that their custom chips are pretty great for power and efficiency, but their actual product design is bad. I mean, who designs a laptop with the fan pointing the wrong way?[0] Or a power bus alongside a data bus?[1] These are literally basic errors that go into production for a company that is far too big for this to be happening.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiCBYAP_Sgg [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ

sva_• 7 months ago

I'm by no means an HP fan, but EliteBooks have pretty great repairability and (unintentionally) great Linux support. Though they are a bit bulky compared to laptops that have been soldered together. So there are definitely more options.

cedel2k1• 7 months ago

Welcome to Apple, enjoy your M1/M2 :)

jollymonATX• 7 months ago

Wow had been strongly considering the framework 16 and really glad I read this. Thanks author! That keyboard space jank is not okay.

ivanb• 7 months ago

What's is the deal with Linux and suspend? It seems only a select few combinations of hardware and software can handle suspend and resume. AMD is commonly praised for their Linux drivers but my all-AMD system crumbles down on power state transitions and especially suspend-resume. I never though words "data", "fabric", "sync" and "flood" can be used together, but now they are a common sight in my logs.

dmitrygr• 7 months ago

Flex & build issues. Only 8h battery life. Display issues. Suspend issues. Trackpad issues. Speaker issues. Yup, and this is why you jut buy a MacBook. Sorry but there simply is no “option b” for laptop hardware quality.

galkk• 7 months ago

I love my x1 extreme, I dual boot Linux (i3wm) and windows. I hate macOS with passion.

My next laptop will be 16” MacBook Pro, when m5 version will arrive. I looked at reviews, I tried “deep research” with llms… there is just nothing even remotely comparable.

0x38B• 7 months ago

My brother has a 16, and it’s been good for him. It is big and chunky, more so with the GPU module; only a few paragraphs into the blog post I felt the author was trying to fit a big square peg in a round hole, and then blaming the square peg for being big and square.

That is to say, it’s a big, heavy, expensive laptop. My brother works shifts in a remote location and from what I can tell, the 16 is great for that: you wouldn’t bring a desktop, but once the laptop comes out of the bag, it’s going to stay set up on the desk for the duration of the hitch. He tried leaving the GPU module at home, and found the AMD APU quite capable (he plays Tarkov and BF6, among others).

I support Framework’s vision and ethos and am willing to pay a premium for them. My sister uses my 11th gen Intel FW13 for school and is happy with it (only she wishes it was better for gaming), and the AMD 13 I bought was a massive upgrade in gaming capability and speed – I’m able to play Arc Raiders with my brother, one of the few online shooters who’s anti-cheat works on Linux.

Another big plus is that FWs play very well with Linux. The Wayland window manager Niri is amazing – so smooth and fast, now with alt-tab in the latest release. And I see there’s Dank Material Shell (1), which bundles things like a bar, launcher, and control center that one normally has to assemble piece by piece in WMs like Niri and Sway (which I used before).

1: https://github.com/AvengeMedia/DankMaterialShell

0xWTF• 7 months ago

The 14" MacBook Pro is unequaled as a daily driver. You can compile some things in a pinch, but let's face it, if you're writing compiled code professionally, someone in management owes your team build resources. Your laptop is your canvas, your easel, your blank page, your sketch pad, and your research library and research notebook. In 2025 and in 2026, your laptop is not for compiling.

supermatt• 7 months ago

the Framework 16 feels more like a €1200-€1500 laptop at best… but two thousand Euros for this kind of laptop is just absurd.

You are literally buying a whole new laptop because the keyboard is broken and too difficult to replace, instead of a €65 euro replacement part with framework.

With framework, you are paying a 30% premium for the modularity and upgrade potential.

If that’s not important to you then why would you even buy a framework laptop?

asno3030• 7 months ago

I'm okay with spending 1000 on a screen and chassis, under the impression I upgrade the computer every 2 years. Unfortunately when a mainboard cost $1000, it's cheaper to buy a new machine every 2 years. This shouldn't be the case... Look at the chinese producing MoDT boards with full IO for $300 (likely the same shops who work with framework.

I like framework in the sense that I can ship of thesues my laptop the same way I can with a desktop, but at the end of the day, the premium is outrageous. If third parties start making framework compatible boards I'll buy into the ecosystem.

bronson2• 7 months ago

You can get a 7040 series Ryzen mainboard for $380.

https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-series?...

So I don't understand your $1000 complaint ... that's the most expensive mainboard they offer. You think Framework shouldn't offer the high end stuff?

wiz21c• 7 months ago

Maybe the FrameWork company wants to build something out of the clutches of proprietary software and big corp hardware. And that's fine. Since they don't have the volumes to make enough money they may have to charge more per laptop, which is fine.

But if they want to have me as a customer on these core values (which I'm pretty much aligned with), then they need an additional core value: they need to convince me their higher price is justified. So I want transparency on the way they use my money (and the one of their other customers).

Without that, I'm left wondering if it is not some "green washing".

IOW I'm sure Apple is expensive because it's luxury, I'm sure other laptops are not expensive because they're cheap/sold by millions. But FrameWork, I don't know why their expensive. And repairability doesn't count, design for repairability doesn't make things inherently more expensive I guess.

mrheosuper• 7 months ago

I used to want a FW laptop. The idea is sound, instead of throwing the whole computer away when upgrading, just upgrade what needed(CPU, RAM, etc)

But the execution is, not good. The cost of new Motherboard is sometime as expensive as the new machine that has similar spec. I understand FW does not have economy of scale like Lenovo or Dell, but, the cost of upgrading is deal breaker to me.

StrauXX• 7 months ago

I won a max spec Framework 13 at a hacking tournament a few months ago and use it as my daily driver now. I'm very happy with it. The 13 is much more clean than the 16. Framework 16 still feels like a bit of a beta product.

That being said, I probably would have gone with a Thinkpad if it had been my own money. The peicing is just really steep.

mindcrash2• 7 months ago

People really should stop pretending that you're getting a Macbook out of a Framework. You're not. You're getting a PC laptop with all the advantages of a self-build PC desktop.

When you compare apples to apples (lol) - PCs to PCs - the current gen higher end Framework 13 and 16 are beasts. They contain the fastest mobile AMD chips on the market today, the Ryzen AI HX 370 aka "Strix Point". The only thing faster than that is the Ryzen AI Max+ 395 aka "Strix Halo", which would probably have some issues in a laptop with this size if you want to make full use of it because of thermals. Just look at the kind of cooler which sits on the mainboard of Framework Desktop (which does contain the AI Max+ 395) to get an idea what I am talking about.

You can choose between no discrete GPU, AMD RX7700S or NVIDIA 5070M; or just purchase them all and swap them around if you want to. (and who knows what dGPU will be for sale in the (near) future... and all it takes for them is to make that thing fit into the Expansion Shell)

Due to the included AMD mainboard you get USB4 instead of Thunderbolt 4, which means little to no protocol overhead when you hook up a EGPU and can run a docked 5070Ti or 9070XT at ~100fps @ 1440p.

You get up to six (on the 16) expansion bays which enable you to swap external ports to any configuration you like. They even have created 2 external SSDs you can slot in on these ports and blend in with the laptop (which come in sizes of 256G and 1T), and released everything required to allow people in the community to create their own ports as open source.

And I could rave on and on...

But again: Is it a Apple quality laptop? No. Is it a beast of a PC laptop? Yes.

PS: If you think Lenovo is the Apple of the PC world due to the fact that they could purchase some branding and design from IBM back in the day you are in for a very nasty surprise. I have all the hands on experience with a so called "premium" Thinkpad worth a pretty cool 3500 EUR back then to write this.

TazeTSchnitzel• 7 months ago

The Framework Laptop 16 has worse performance than other laptops that have the same chips, due to thermal and power constraints. Upgrading to the fastest option Framework sells might not have much value when the power budget for it is so low.

mindcrash2• 7 months ago

PC Magazine thinks otherwise:

https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/framework-laptop-16-2025

I quote: "A DIY Desktop Replacement Dream Machine"

It also outperformed the Asus Zenbook S 16 in their benchmarks, which also has a HX 370 SoC.

The only thing they didnt like was the battery.

pmdr• 7 months ago

This summer I bought and returned a FW 13, the newer AMD variety. Specs and performance were top notch, albeit a bit pricey I'd say (I brought my own 96GB of RAM and 2TB NVMe and the laptop was still 2200 EUR). Tinkered with it for a few days, tried Windows 11. The Mediatek Wifi card was horrible and it took a few hours of driver hunting to finally get it working in a stable fashion.

Reading the FW subreddit, a lot of said 'just drop in an Intel wifi card instead.' Well, yeah, that would surely have worked, but, again, I had already paid a lot for the machine itself. Battery life was subpar for it to be of much use as a laptop, but I didn't really mind. The screen was quite okay.

But what really put me off was how HOT and, consequently, LOUD it would get by merely watching YouTube at 1080p. Hot means really uncomfortable to touch and definitely not something you'd want sitting on your lap. People heard the fan from another room more than 10 meters away. That's when I decided that the little fan inside it would never be enough. With proper cooling, it would've been great as a workstation, though not as laptop meant to be carried.

tl;dr FW has a lot to work on noise, cooling and battery life. I don't suppose there will ever be a huge market willing to overlook these aspects just for the sake of repairability.

rsynnott2• 7 months ago

Surprised how quickly the Thinkpad died; they used to pretty much last forever.

chaostheory• 7 months ago

It’s a detailed review with annoying conclusions.

While it has improved a lot over the years, the core issue is that Linux still doesn’t work well on laptops compared to other OS’s. 99.99% of the time you’re not going to get a “premium” laptop running Linux for this reason

The other reason, he’s not getting a “premium” experience is that he’s buying a laptop built for repairability and upgradability. You’re going to have a lot of tradeoffs for that.

IMO the only way to have a “premium” laptop experience with Linux, is to buy a Mac and run Linux in either a container or VM. It’s an understatement to say that the author is not being realistic.

moribvndvs• 7 months ago

As a reader interested in Framework and looking for honest feedback in the wild, this was a really frustrating blog entry. It feels like at every turn you’re coming up with conflicting requirements and impossible demands that even your X1 doesn’t meet. For example: regarding the MacBook, the worry about long term support for Asahi is understandable, but one of your main criticisms is that it has the same battery life as other Linux laptops? You wanted a bigger, repairable laptop and didn’t expect it to be larger or heavier? You preferred the slightly more washed out red of your old laptop, but didn’t tell us whether you could fix it with a display setting or why having more vibrant colors or having to adjust display settings is a bad thing for your use case? Have you considered just turning on a light rather than working in a dark room (please turn on a light, I destroyed my eyesight working like that)? I’m devastated to read you found the battery life simply par and that it used a little bit of electricity after suspend for 8 hours like every other laptop on the market, and that you were able to turn the power led off but not in your preferred location.

At the end of the day, you’re not required to like a thing for any reason you see fit, but I very much hope you figure out what you actually need and that such a device actually exists on this planet before you purchase another one.

pastor_williams• 7 months ago

I bought a framework 16 shortly after it came out. My one gripe is around the track pad and the modules on either side of it. The fit there is not great. I really wish they would sell a full width track pad piece because the seams are imperfect. That said after the first month it hasn't bothered me. Definitely something I would change but not something that I notice or am inconvenienced by in daily use.

kinow• 7 months ago

I am quite happy with my AMD 13 laptop. It replaced my Thinkpad T530 after its ~10 years of service. So far, nearly one year after buying it, everything works well. Ubuntu, Docker containers, clion+pycharm, sometimes Blender and other apps. Plus several tabs on Firefox. Camera and audio are better than my old thinkpad, so i have nothing to complain about yet.

There were issues like configuring Linux (extra monitor, logitech mouse, tablet, some software) but I found everything on Framework forums or googling a bit.

nathias• 7 months ago

I went for a similar upgrade from X1 Carbon. I don't undestand why OP would compare the weight of a 16 to carbon which is closer to framework 13 (which I bought).

For me on Arch it's working great and has none of the issues he mentions, its the best laptop I ever owned. I bought one because the Carbon started decomposing fairly quickly (headphone jack, usb c port, keys) and think the modularity is a really great feature.

askonomm• 7 months ago

I have a Framework 16, and as for it being a Linux machine I couldn't be happier with it. I still daily drive my MacBook Pro 16 instead, because it's just a more polished, more performant (and better battery life) machine, but still, I also really like my Framework 16. I eagerly await the time when Linux desktops reach the level of polish I'd like to have, and I feel like that isn't that far away anymore.

1970-01-01• 7 months ago

The hidden story is the depth of work required to replace a keyboard on a newer Lenovo. The amount of work is absurd. Easily an hour or two for the casual owner plus use of multiple tools. Don't blame the author for giving up on it.

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+X1+Carbon+6th+G...

"Step 26: Remove the seventy-two 0.5mm screws holding keyboard in place."

cassepipe• 7 months ago

Contra the author, the extra vertical space you gain with the 3:2 ratio on the 13' version makes up for the small form factor, especially it makes you realize that what you are often missing on a laptop is extra vertical space.

Exactly, this is why he should have got the 13' version. Sometimes you feel you want something "just slightly larger" (sic) than 14' but if you are not ready to pay the price for it, what's I am pretty the issue comes from people wanting to work on two windows side-by-side but for that to be comfortable you really need at least 16' if not 17'

The way I go around this issue is that instead of having a subpar side-by-side windows experience I just optimized for fast window switching: I just have mod + j/k mapped in my windows manager (can't do that in Gnome ofc) and I can just put the two window in their own workspace so that it's only cycling through those two if needed

My main gripe with the framework 13' is that it doesn't feel sturdy for some reason. Don't get me wrong, it is not flimsy either but if you get your hands or a macbook or even some other laptop in the same price range of the fw, it will feel better. I thing it has to do with the partly recycled aluminum, it's a material that's just not as hard as it seems.

On the other hand not having to throw out your laptop because you stupidly broke the screen is a great feeling.

rhodey• 7 months ago

I own 2 framework 13 laptops at this time and repairability aside I am also just happy to support a new PC hardware co.

wappieslurkz• 7 months ago

Apple could sell so many Macs to Linux users looking for decent machines once they'd open up the hardware just a bit...

etempleton• 7 months ago

Beyond Apple, I think the state of laptop quality is absolutely abysmal. I haven’t tried Framework, but it is disappointing to hear their products suffer many of the same issues as other PC builders. I guess there just isn’t a market.

QuiEgo• 7 months ago

Just get a linux desktop and the cheapest MacBook Air and remote into Linux from the Mac when you need to go portable.

There's the world as you want it to be, and the world as it is. The laptop the author wants just doesn't exist.

SergeAx• 7 months ago

My desktop PC has been constantly evolving for about 15 years now, literally the ship of Theseus. Currently, following the latest upgrade in September, it's an absolute powerhouse.

During the same time, I burned through four laptops (for travel purposes), all of which were mostly weak, with a maximum of 16 GB RAM, no real GPUs, and 14"-15" screens, expensive, and had poor resale value.

My next travel computer will be Framework 16.

cxplay• 7 months ago

I'm currently in China, pondering whether Framework's approach to promoting repairability is feasible locally. I can easily purchase parts for nearly any retail laptop (yes, nearly any) on online shopping sites, sometimes even including the motherboard. Repairing electronic hardware isn't easy for non-professionals, but Framework's parts aren't just "parts" anymore—they're modules designed for easy repair. They clearly aren't manufactured and sold as individual components. This reminds me of LG's modular phones. For a time, their market lifecycle was so short that some of LG's premium modules ended up circulating at prices higher than the devices themselves.

philo_sophia• 7 months ago

I don't find framework appealing for upgradability, but I do think it's great for repairability. Being able to extend the life of a machine easily by replacing a cracked screen or degraded battery is so much better than going to the fruit store and being upsold a new machine and spending more. Obviously you pay extra in upfront costs and sacrifice build quality for a framework.

Also I think framework will excel in the SMB market where companies may have diverse requirements for different employees. Some just need a machine for email/browser and others for dev or video editing. But they can share parts, and upgrading a dev machine might have the benefit of upgrading other employees machines with the extra parts.

throwaway1413• 7 months ago

People need to realize, Framework laptops are atrociously overpriced, terrible in terms of specs, loud, unwieldy, and not robust. It's a bad company that just rides on being in vogue with the tech crowd who see the word "repairability" and go nuts over it.

for 2k euros the author could have gotten a maxed out 16 inch m5 pro with: 10-Core CPU 10-Core GPU 24GB Unified Memory 1TB SSD Storage

This setup is superior to framework in basically every conceivable way (better power efficiency, more ram, more storage, better GPU, better multithreading, better single thread perf, more durable, cheaper).

If you are buying a framework you might as well set 300$ on fire and buy a macbook instead.

desipenguin• 7 months ago

If bad keys are the only problem with X1, why not buy external/wireless keyboard ?

tracker1• 7 months ago

I think what would be my biggest issue with the Framework 16 is mentioned... the spacers next to the touchpad... I really wish they'd offer a standard single-deck option for the touchpad that didn't have spacer/relocation options at all. The speakers would also be something I would regularly notice.

I'd probably go for the 13" myself... hardware wise, IMO Apple is really hard to beat all around. For what you interact with, it's absolutely the best model(s) around... the air and pro are both really good and solid. Displays, keyboard, touchpads, speakers are all well above average, and I don't think I've seen a combination I feel is better all around... that said, I'm less inclined to want to lock myself in. I'm going to use my M1 air until it dies, but I don't think I'll ever buy Apple hardware again though.

rldjbpin• 7 months ago

the core argument boils down to value proposition purely from an end user who does not care about the laptop's usp.

as a fairphone of laptops, it still seems like a much better deal imho. the core performance is not much worse than the competition. the user-facing hardware, while not as good as the best, it is quite in the same ballpark as other windows or linux laptops.

also a lot of quirks are starting to be solved by the community, which seems to be in a healthy state. the pixels and macbooks have enjoyed this in the past, despite their own quirks mainly due to network effects. plus rarely one could opt out parts not needed while ordering the laptop.

I'm returning my Framework 16

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