A Letter from Tim Cook on Maps

http://www.apple.com/letter-from-tim-cook-on-maps/

by j4mie • 14 years ago

620 485 14 years ago

cicloid• 14 years ago

This should be view on the same grounds as the scolding from Jobs to the MobileMe group when it launched.

The alternatives are almost the same as when it launched. Even having those. How many are having real problems or just hating because is the new fad?

TheOnly92• 14 years ago

Well actually regardless of that, Apple is a brand that people trust, and of course there are times that Apple might fail and we criticize because we trust they can do a better job.

To me it's much better that "this product is shit" than "ah it's apple, what do you expect?".

atourgates• 14 years ago

The other day I got my iPhone 5 on the mail, but it wouldn't activate because of a SIM card error. So, I get it the car, look up the closest Verizon store on Apple maps using my old iPhone, and drive there.

I end up at a run down strip mall with no Verizon store in sight. So, I load up Google maps is Safari, and it finds and takes me to an actual Verizon store about 3 miles away.

So yes, people are having actual problems with Apple maps.

chucknelson3• 14 years ago

This type of stuff happened with Google maps too, but everyone seems to forget that. A year or so ago in Houston I was following Google maps to a theater and ended up in the middle of some suburban neighborhood.

Let's just all remember that the old maps app was not flawless.

pohl2• 14 years ago

The question was not whether there exist people who are having problems. Rather, it was "how many?"

How much of this is the self-selected sample of those who are irritated enough to complain? Data is not he plural of anecdote.

iaskwhy• 14 years ago

In London I am used to check the Maps app almost everyday. Problems I had so far:

- I am still waiting to get a correct location when searching by post code. - Searching by the street name sometimes gives me that same street name somewhere in the USA even with the GPS on and map centered on my current location. - I was in Holborn centered on my location, searched for a Nando's, it told me to go up that same street. Turns out it was down, wrong location for that Nando's. - It is much more difficult to differenciate between an underground and a rail station since they look almost the same unlike Google Maps or Bing Maps.

I have been using Google Maps mobile web app and the Bing native app with good results. Still a step backwards because both are much slower than the old Maps.

So yes, people are having real problems.

Small edit: I don't trust the new maps data anymore, that's the biggest problem though.

rrreese• 14 years ago

I live in the United Kingdom, and can say that the new maps are a vast downgrade. Central London seems OK, but outside that there are numerous problems. Off the top of my head areas that I have visited lately have no high detail satellite, satellite photos with clouds or points of interest in the wrong place or not existing at all.

This isn't some hypothetical problem, this is going from maps I use all the time with success, to maps that have become vastly less useful.

bdfh42• 14 years ago

This is not just an "end user" problem it is a developer problem. Our "hyper local" app looks (and is) terrible on iOS6 but runs just fine on iOS5 (with Google mapping).

iOS was the choice for the lead mobile platform but with iOS6 take up levels running high we may have to switch to Android to be able to demonstrate all of our ideas.

chucknelson3• 14 years ago

Looks terrible? I don't think the look of the new maps is under much criticism. I thought the general consensus was "pretty but not as functional"?

ruswick• 14 years ago

Although the app's lack of proper search and laughable location plotting, my chief issue with the new Maps is the aesthetic, which I consider to be unequivocally inferior to Google Maps.

metatation• 14 years ago

It's unusably terrible for some people (like me). Apparently I now live on the moon: http://cl.ly/image/3q3v262G3P2s

vilya2• 14 years ago

I find it harder to read. In particular, it's a lot harder to distinguish icons for useful things like train/tube stations from icons I don't care about like wine bars.

amitparikh• 14 years ago

Yeah, I tend to disagree, mainly for the many reasons pointed out in this fantastic article: http://geoit.posterous.com/41latitude-google-maps-label-read... .

I do believe that vector graphics are far superior to GMaps' tiles.

kylec2• 14 years ago

As a developer, you can include whatever map tiles you want in your application - if Apple Maps are bad for you, you can just switch to Google or Bing or whatever. Don't blame or abandon the platform for what is within your capability to change.

Kudos2• 14 years ago

I'm pretty sure that will cost both money (likely prohibitive) and significant developer time.

smackfu3• 14 years ago

In the situation described, the mapping was switched out beneath a developer without them even updating their software. Yes you can work around it but I don't blame someone for thinking that sucks.

eddieroger3• 14 years ago

Wouldn't you have noticed that three months ago when you downloaded the beta after WWDC? If you were displeased, you could have worked around MapKit. Sure, you shouldn't have to, but I wouldn't blame Apple for making your app "terrible" when you've had plenty of time to make it not that way.

tghw2• 14 years ago

We launched Maps initially with the first version of iOS. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the ground up.

Google already did all of this. It's just that Apple wouldn't let them include those features on iOS. This is rather blatant lying.

dakotasmith2• 14 years ago

I believe the we in "we wanted to provide our customers" is Apple, not Apple and Google. Hyperbolic to call it blatant lying.

tghw2• 14 years ago

I believe it is blatant lying because they went out of their way to prevent their customers from having those features, even though they were readily available on other platforms through their established partner. It's also rather dishonest to say that they had to build something new from the ground up. They had other options (namely Google), which would have served their customers better.

rmrfrmrf3• 14 years ago

From Google Maps' terms of service:

10.2 Restrictions on the Types of Applications that You are Permitted to Build with the Maps API(s). Except as explicitly permitted in Section 8 (Licenses from Google to You) or the Maps APIs Documentation, you must not (nor may you permit anyone else to) do any of the following:

(a) No "Wrapping." You must not create or offer a "wrapper" for the Service, unless you obtain Google's written consent to do so. For example, you are not permitted to: (i) use or provide any part of the Service or Content (such as map imagery, geocoding, directions, places, or terrain data) in an API that you offer to others; or (ii) create a Maps API Implementation that reimplements or duplicates Google Maps/Google Earth. For clarity, you are not "re-implementing or duplicating" Google Maps/Google Earth if your Maps API Implementation provides substantial additional features or content beyond Google Maps/Google Earth, and those additional features or content constitute the primary defining characteristic of your Maps API Implementation.

(b) No Business, Residential, or Telephone Listings Services. You must not display any of the business listings Content provided by the Maps API(s) in any Maps API Implementation that has the primary purpose of making available business, residential address, or telephone directory listings.

(c) No Navigation, Autonomous Vehicle Control, or Enterprise Applications. You must not use the Service or Content with any products, systems, or applications for or in connection with any of the following:

(i) real time navigation or route guidance, including but not limited to turn-by-turn route guidance that is synchronized to the position of a user's sensor-enabled device.

(ii) any systems or functions for automatic or autonomous control of vehicle behavior; or

(iii) enterprise dispatch, fleet management, business asset tracking or similar applications. If you want to engage in enterprise dispatch, fleet management, business asset tracking, or similar applications, please contact the Google Maps API for Business sales team to obtain a Google enterprise license. (If you are offering a non-enterprise implementation, you may use the Google Maps API(s) to track assets such as cars, buses or other vehicles, as long as your tracking application is made available to the public without charge. For example, you may offer a free, public Maps API Implementation that displays real-time public transit or other transportation status information.)

Those features in Android's Google Maps only exist because they don't have to follow the TOS.

revelation2• 14 years ago

Apple isn't exactly a random API user. Until you find written copies of the agreement between Google and Apple, don't claim any of that even applied to them.

hippee-lee• 14 years ago

Can you provide a citation for where Google offered turn by turn integration and voice nav to Apple but apple refused it?

arrrg8• 14 years ago

Uhm, what?

How the hell do you know that Google would have allowed them to use all of that for reasonable terms? You do not. You are just clueless.

notimetorelax3• 14 years ago

I keep reading similar arguments and I wonder was there ever any piece of evidence to support it?

tammer• 14 years ago

I don't think I realized what an actual issue this is... Cook isn't speaking to people who have been following this debacle since the beta, he's speaking to people who think the only way to get location info is through the "maps" button on their phone.

Let's hope, for the sake of those people at least, Apple can get some better data.

lewisflude4• 14 years ago

As far as I'm concerned, apology accepted. [ assuming this is an apology of course ]

jug6ernaut3• 14 years ago

An apology should never have to be inferred, with that said expecting a full out apology from apple is asking a lot, not that it isn't warranted.

fredoliveira2• 14 years ago

No need to infer. From the letter:

"We are extremely sorry"

eggbrain3• 14 years ago

What I want to know is -- why did they release the app in the state that it was in vs partnering with someone like Microsoft?

Let's assume that Apple's contract with Google was ending soon, and that Google had failed to deliver features for Apple (turn by turn, etc), meaning Apple wanted to go a different direction.

Sure, Apple then started buying up mapping companies, building their own product, but they must have known they were on a tight schedule. My question is -- why didn't they partner with Microsoft to use Bing maps?

Microsoft gets a huge win in that suddenly 40 million people are using their service. Apple gets a win in that they have a pretty comparative product out of the gate to Google Maps, and it gives them time to build up their own service.

But instead, Apple released maps that had 1/3rd the quality of the maps they had before. Where's the logic in that?

Cadsby• 14 years ago

Part of the rationale for cutting ties with Google Maps seems to have been to avoid being reliant on a major competitor for core functionality. Partnering with Microsoft would simply have been trading one competitor for another. Presumably this is the same reason they didn't partner with Nokia either.

kmfrk• 14 years ago

It could be the Goldilocks problem for Apple with their own - supposedly - high bar for quality that made them end up with their own vastly inferior product. I imagine we'll see some scoops on the inside baseball in a few weeks.

TetOn• 14 years ago

They don't want to partner with anybody. All that would do is recreate the problem they faced with Google: losing control and sooner or later negatively affecting user experience as New Partner Co. begins to favor its interests over whatever future interests Apple may or may not have.

Far better to rip the band-aid off now, tune the dataset over time, and ultimately emerge with a better overall experience that you now control completely. Already the system-wide integration of mapping is far superior in that regard. That just wasn't going to happen with Google or any other partner which would forever live as a walled garden of an App.

Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem.

notimetorelax3• 14 years ago

> Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem.

Not if you live in the area that has very low resolution maps. IMHO "finite problem" is an antithesis to accurate maps. Mapping requires constant improvement. For example roads in the area where I live have been modified 3 times in last 5 years.

krenoten• 14 years ago

>>They don't want to partner with anybody

They run iCloud on Windows Azure, why not run their map service using Bing Maps data?

msrpotus• 14 years ago

Mapping isn't a finite problem. If you read about the Coastline Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox), every map is based on abstraction. You can get more and more detail but there will always be parts that are simplified and abstracted. It's like trying to get to the door by going half the distance each time. Eventually, it'll be a small distance (and not a big problem, which is generally the case for Google Maps) but you'll never completely solve it.

nicholassmith5• 14 years ago

Well, they had two choices in front of them. Suck it up and partner, or suck it up and risk this situation.

Whilst I'm sure they'd have gotten a 1-year licensing agreement with Microsoft I can only guess it'd come with a steep price tag on. Plus they'd just been burnt by dealing with a third party. Plus (again, sorry), they need to have the Maps application being used by people worldwide to improve the quality. It doesn't get better with time, it gets better with users moaning.

camiller2• 14 years ago

FWIW, I've read elsewhere that Google has had 1000 contractors in India cleaning up map data for 5 years. People using it isn't going to clean it up with "moaning". Apple is going to have to throw a LOT of resources at fixing this.

duxup2• 14 years ago

I suspect that cutting the google deal short was intentionally done leave Google flat footed with no map app on iOS. Simply put it cuts google out of that market for a while leaving Apple the only major player on their device.

While it isn't perfect being the only big map player in that system means that over time customers will just accept that is their only option, and those with problems will see improvements. By the time Google releases a map app many customers may already be committed to the default experience.

Some folks may continue to make comparisons between the two and switch back, but the majority may not and thus an easy win for Apple where if there were a competing Google Maps they would face a far steeper challenge even with time to improve their own product.

As for partnering with MS I think Apple simply wanted to go on their own considering that they were already were severing a partnership over maps.

freyr5• 14 years ago

> leaving Apple the only major player on their device.

> over time customers will just accept that is their only option

As Tim Cook mentioned, there are already map apps available for Bing, MapQuest and Waze, and turn-by-turn navigation apps from all the major players. Google announced that they have not submitted their own maps app for iOS.

Unless, perhaps rightly, you're considering Google the only major player. More reason for Apple to switch now.

betterth3• 14 years ago

I disagree with the cutting the deal short. The Maps app was in beta for months, was announced in April and I bet that Google knew it was coming even before the official announcement.

Quite frankly, Google has had plenty of time to be working on a Maps application for iOS. It's not like they have to reinvent the wheel with this, they have iOS development teams and experience with mobile mapping applications.

I think that Google willfully chose not to have a product ready. It's a good explanation when you realize they had months of lead time, and when you factor in all of the CEO "I don't know nothing' about no app" comments.

freyr5• 14 years ago

1/3 the quality? Have you used the maps? I agree that they're not amazing, but in my experience the complaints about low quality seem overblown.

It's a first generation product. By putting it out there and getting actual user feedback, this should accelerate the development.

eggbrain3• 14 years ago

Maps become exponentially better the closer they get to accurate.

Even if Apple has, let's say, 90% of the map data/information that Google does, the minute you are sent to the wrong location, or to a store that doesn't exist, or try to get transit directions and can't, or get routed via the most convoluted route possible to your destination, the Maps app has failed.

betterth3• 14 years ago

I know, right? They're about 80% as good as Google maps for me. They do all the same things, but admittedly I haven't done obscure turn by turn (then again, it didn't do turn by turn at all before...).

mikeash10• 14 years ago

From a user's perspective (which is what I am in this context, as are the rest of us) it's a sixth-generation product that's a substantial step backwards from the fifth generation.

vilya2• 14 years ago

I'd say it's much worse than 1/3rd the quality. It's absolutely terrible! The data for London, where I live, is full of misspellings; at least one tube station is missing (Monument, in the heart of the financial district); and it fairly often seems to use an arbitrary street name as the name for an entire district. I wouldn't trust it to navigate me anywhere!

jonknee3• 14 years ago

Easily 1/3 the quality. What good is a map if it is incorrect? An incorrect map isn't 1/3 worse than a correct one, it's just worthless. Actually worse than worthless since with no map you at least know when you're lost. Apple's maps are riddled with errors and inaccuracies and thus it's not usable (to me at least). I won't set off to a destination with a map I don't trust, so for me the difference between the two is a map I can use and a map I cannot use.

Kylekramer• 14 years ago

When the CEO of the company writes a personal apology, I think we can stop saying complaints about low quality are overblown.

betterth3• 14 years ago

Yes, they should have teamed up with another direct competitor, because that's worked so well for them in the past.

Why go through Microsoft when their data is Nokia based anyway?

sethg• 14 years ago

There are two companies that have done the legwork to acquire a really really good database of mapping information:

* TeleAtlas, which is in bed with Google

* Navteq, which is owned by Nokia, which has a deal to provide maps to Bing

So now maps is one of the few areas where both Google/Android and Microsoft/Nokia have a blatant advantage over Apple. Why would they want to give that up?

gman99• 14 years ago

Err... What? Teleatlas is owned by TomTom who is currently in bed with ...Apple!

What Google does have is that they partner with whomever has the best available information in the area of interest (check out the copyright info when you scroll around the world on google maps on the web) and augment that with streetview, Yellow Pages, crowdsourced info from Android, etc (and vetted by hand)

eggbrain3• 14 years ago

Microsoft's #1 enemy right now would most likely be Google -- Balmer has been waging a war on the online front with Bing, and so far, has been losing pretty badly.

As they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend -- partnering with Apple would boost their Bing Maps market share into double digit percentage growth, all the while taking Google's map market share down. Even if you know the relationship won't last long and that in the end you'll have another competitor in the space, the rewards far outweigh the risks.

It's far better to take down the king and fight for the throne than to always be a peasant.

digikata• 14 years ago

Nokia is having a bit of a cash flow problem, and an additional maps deal would probably be welcome income to give it a bit more margin to try and recover.

epistasis• 14 years ago

I've not seen any problem with the information about roads or directions, rather every error that I've seen is connecting a business or place name to a physical location on the map. Which is quite confusing, because Yelp will have the proper location for a business of interest, but the new iOS Maps will place it at the same address but in a different municipality, or something crazy like that. I'm not sure what problems others are experiencing, though...

gkanai2• 14 years ago

Those companies do not have good data for Asia, afaict. There are many other companies and data sets that would need to be integrated to provide even something resembling what Google has today with it's Maps service.

jsz02• 14 years ago

Apple would be in exactly the same problematic position with Microsoft as they were with Google. Not worth the pain for no gain.

philwelch• 14 years ago

Now that they've already queered the deal with Google it's too late, but playing Google and Microsoft against each other they could have gotten sufficient leverage from at least one of them.

benihana• 14 years ago

Jon Gruber had a pretty good write up on this:

"But if the old agreement between Apple and Google expired in the first half of 2013 (which, again, my own sources familiar with the matter agree to be the case), that means the deal was set to expire halfway through the expected year-long life cycle for iOS 6. If Apple had stuck with Google Maps for another year they would have been forced to renegotiate with Google in a situation where both sides at the table would know that Apple either (a) had to agree to whatever terms Google demanded to extend the deal; or (b) would be forced to swap the mapping back-end of iOS 6 midway through its development cycle."

http://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_switc...

jlgreco6• 14 years ago

How does that have anything to do with map providers other than google?

cma2• 14 years ago

That reads like an autistic kid or maybe OCD adult with a 'special interest' in trains explaining why a train crashed: "Company A always bumped the letter of the model number when releasing a new engine. Company B designated upgrades to their brakes by doubling the current model number. You can hardly blame Company C for upgrading the engine without upgrading the brakes when in the past Company C has always kept the numeric form of the engine model number + brake model number mutually co-prime."

jusben13694• 14 years ago

I find it odd that many folks in this debate have focused on the exiting contract and its dates. There's nothing stopping two willing parties from updating an existing agreement at any time - as long as they can both agree. No senior exec at Apple would have ever said "Oh, dang it - if only the date was in a different location we'd be doing a different strategy"

jpdoctor3• 14 years ago

Thank you, I have been wondering what drove apple to act so stupidly.

I can easily envision Tim Cook doing this. The whole world is watching, and there is major ego on the line. The last thing on earth he'd want is for wall street to see that google had him by the balls.

Not that Jon Gruber is guarenteed to be right, but it certainly has the ring of truth.

Edit: Of course, if wall street were really paying attention, they'd see that apple behaved this badly because Google in fact had them by the balls. Thank god they're not the sharpest tools in the shed over there.

bhavin• 14 years ago

Every time I read something from aforementioned blog, I finished with a feeling of disappointment. No insights, no deep thought process, just plain apple-fanboyism.

mortenjorck2• 14 years ago

This leaves only one simple question in my mind:

If it has come to Apple issuing a public apology for shipping a partly-baked replacement for an important core app, the old version of which they are still licensed to distribute for another year...

Why not put iOS 5 Maps in the App Store, and pull it down next summer?

dr_• 14 years ago

It is really not 1/3 the quality. It has errors, without question, but so did Google Maps when it first launched. To partner with another company and then, in a few years again switch to their own maps and start over or partner again with yet another company doesn't make sense. It's an unfortunate situation, but not something that can't be gradually fixed. There are several features I prefer actually. The city I live in is broken into subdivisions I wasn't previously aware of. It looks nicer. And the yelp reviews are useful, perhaps even a good way for businesses to quickly become featured on maps. I have to be honest, none of the people I know who have purchased the 5 have complained much about maps, they realize its not as good as google but they feel the other features more than make up for it.

gkanai2• 14 years ago

You haven't used iOS 6 Maps in non US/EU countries. The OSM map data in Asia is much less accurate. There is no Yelp outside of the US. Think global. iOS 6 Maps is worthless in Asia.

jonknee3• 14 years ago

> The city I live in is broken into subdivisions I wasn't previously aware of.

Mine too, but because Apple is incorrectly naming the subdivisions with random POI. Like a small condo building becoming the name for a whole neighborhood. It seems random and almost entirely incorrect.

fcoury• 14 years ago

It would be nice if they approved Google's Map application for the time being as a great alternative. The lack of that option is what is holding me back in iOS 5...

nicholassmith5• 14 years ago

Google hasn't even submitted an app,that's been confirmed.

Johngibb• 14 years ago

I didn't know it had been confirmed yet, can you add a link?

nexneo• 14 years ago

They can't approve Google's map application, until google submit one.

brown9-2• 14 years ago

Is there any indication there is a Maps app from Google awaiting approval? I thought the consensus was that Google is scrambling to build one now. This sounds like speculation.

dbau• 14 years ago

The reports I've read indicate that Google are still working on their iOS Maps App so I don't believe there is anything for Apple to simply approve right now.

ajanuary• 14 years ago

> While we’re improving Maps, you can try alternatives by > downloading map apps from the App Store like Bing, MapQuest > and Waze, or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their > websites and creating an icon on your home screen to their > web app.

I was quite surprised they listed competitors. Is this an unusual move or a normal/expected thing to do in a case like this?

denzil_correa3• 14 years ago

Great to see this letter from Tim Cook. When was the last time such a letter was written by a CEO?

lovamova2• 14 years ago

Jobs. Antennagate.

denzil_correa3• 14 years ago

Do you have a link to a letter which says signed by Steve Jobs? The OP link is signed by Tim Cook CEO, Apple.

doomlaser• 14 years ago

Not branded as from Steve Jobs himself, but this is very reminiscent of the 'Antennagate' letter Apple issued after the introduction of the iPhone 4: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-...

ConstantineXVI• 14 years ago

Hardly the same. It starts off by essentially saying "b-but everyone else does it!", and nothing even remotely close to "we fell short on this commitment" or "We are extremely sorry".

denzil_correa3• 14 years ago

Well yes but it takes guts to sign off a letter by your name because it will always be out in the open. Come to think of it, Jobs signed out "Thoughts on Flash" with his name but this is not quite the same. Still searching!

markshepard2• 14 years ago

Considering that Apple knew that every single aspect of its software will come under scrutiny, Releasing the software in this state indicates callous attitude towards the users.

Do I believe that the software will improve? Yes.. eventually. I know in enterprise software provides like IBM tend to ship hardware with incomplete software and rely in service packs to complete the functions.And if Apple thinks that the same model will work for Consumer products, then they are plain wrong.

eddieroger3• 14 years ago

A fun anecdote regarding Maps.

I was talking with a friend of mine last night on the iPhone. She was complaining that her iPhone was working poorly, and she was frustrated with it. I asked if she had updated to iOS 6 yet, since sometimes a restore cycle can clear things up. She told me, no, she wasn't, because she heard maps were terrible. I said, "did you hear they are terrible, or have you used them and think they're terrible?" She said she heard only. Interestingly, though, she said she had been using turn-by-turn with "a voice telling her when to turn." I asked her to go to Settings and check, and sure enough, she had updated and actually liked new Maps.

I don't deny that new Maps aren't at the level that GMaps were, but they're not really that terrible, either. Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad, at least in my experience, and has improved since the betas.

lmm• 14 years ago

>Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad

I think this is another example of the biggest general complaint about apple Maps, that it's too US-centric. Here in Europe a mapping program that can't do transit is a joke.

mikeash10• 14 years ago

That's true in many places in the US as well. We have plenty of big cities with well-developed public transportation, after all.

arrrg8• 14 years ago

So like Google Maps in Germany, then, eh?

Google Maps never had any transit info in Germany. It never was a joke, it always was awesome (even if always fraught with problems and errors).

mikeash10• 14 years ago

Un-fucking-believable. The CEO of Apple has come right out and admitted that Maps is sub-par, and the Apple fans are still trying to pretend that the problems are not real.

scott_s5• 14 years ago

Sure the problem are real - for other people. But not for me. When I upgraded, I expected maps to suck. To my surprise, moving the map around was smoother, it was easier to read, and the display for directions are better.

I also think that's why Apple released it: there are genuine improvements in some areas, but they underestimated how important the missing features are to some people. For some people, the transit features are the reason to use Maps, so it's obviously inferior for them.

catfish4• 14 years ago

You gotta understand, your talking about users. They don't actually understand logic. They work from emotion only.

jsz02• 14 years ago

The quality of the maps are not universally good or bad. It's a very local issue. If you have good map data in your area then you may have a great experience with Maps. If you have bad map data in your area you will have a terrible experience.

eddieroger3• 14 years ago

On the contrary - her experiences with Maps were under the assumption she had not been upgraded at all. Her pleased experience transferred to the new maps, based on the expectation that they were still Google provided. She didn't magically decide that the maps were great.

brazzy• 14 years ago

> Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad

How many of the users don't require accurate, up-to-date map data in a map application?

rodh3• 14 years ago

Apple has built a reputation of only releasing products that were absolutely completed and quality controlled. From my understanding, the company ethos has been that any defect, no matter how small, would result in the product being delayed.

Speaking from my own perspective, admission or not, I think it's the break in that expectation that has me disappointed.

cbs2• 14 years ago

I don't know how to respond to this other than "lol".

Apple often releases products that many consumers would consider "incomplete". The only difference is that Apple never admitted to being wrong ever. Their branding depends on being seen as shiny software company-upon-a-hill. That's the only difference here, they admitted to making a bad decision. Their little spat with google just made this an unusually bad one; one that they couldn't paper over.

smacktoward• 14 years ago

You will notice that the name at the bottom of this Apple letter is different than the name that appeared at the bottom of previous Apple letters. This change may have some connection to their new willingness to admit having made a mistake.

hughw• 14 years ago

Right. It took them a lot longer to reluctantly admit anything went wrong in antennagate, and their apology lacked conviction.

rodh3• 14 years ago

That's the key, when you said "many" consumers would consider past products incomplete: it's quite subjective whether to call a product complete or incomplete. They would never admit to wrongdoing because there'd always be some way for them to argue otherwise.

As I mention in my other follow-up comment here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4586212, the difference in this case is that the product is objectively incomplete: the data itself is measurably bad.

murki• 14 years ago

As jballanc pointed out, they did admit bad decisions, as with MobileMe: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4586814

steve89186• 14 years ago

Maybe from a hardware point of view, but not from a software point of view. Case in point, iTunes is one of the worst pieces of software I've ever had to use. They could have made it so much easier to add music, etc, but it is probably the worst piece of software that I'm FORCED to use.

DougBTX2• 14 years ago

I'm at a loss, how could it be easier to add music? From files, it is drag and drop, from CD's, it is one click "Import".

bluthru2• 14 years ago

>They could have made it so much easier to add music, etc

What? You either drag and drop, or purchase with one click from the store. It could not possibly be easier.

rodh3• 14 years ago

As witnessed by the other comment below yours, I have heard people refer to iTunes as a good piece of software in the past. (I am, incidentally, not one of those. I hate iTunes with a passion). The point being, this is a subjective measure.

Does a bad UI make software like iTunes "incomplete"? Again, it depends on your perspective. Missing, or bad data, as is the case in this instance, seems to be a bit less contentious, as can be seen in the quasi-unanimous anger towards the new maps.

SnydenBitchy2• 14 years ago

OS X 10.0.

StacyC• 14 years ago

This is how you do it. Well done, Mr Cook.

josteink3• 14 years ago

Having some standards and providing a working maps app before release would be my definition of "how to do it", but maybe I'm missing something here.

Obviously Apple knew their solution was shit, but they released it anyway, hoping people wouldn't mind too much. That was their choice and now they have to deal.

This is not dealing.

digitalengineer• 14 years ago

Crazy thing is according to TomTom there is no problem in the actual map data they provided. (I think they're right. I've driven across Europe without major problems using TomTom. There were no complaints about the TomTom App according to the 4.5 star reviews). According to TomTom, Appel combines their data with data from other sources and Apple has a problem combining/rendering the data...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/tomtom-apple-maps-...

arrrg8• 14 years ago

I don’t think turn-by-turn (what TomTome provides) is the problem. That seems to work like a charm (at least it does for me). I get excellent TomTom-level quality here in Germany, plus the great (best of breed) traffic info from TomTom.

For me, search and POIs are slightly dysfunctional and some labels are out of whack – both of that, however, doesn’t seem to have any impact on my turn-by-turn experience. So I can believe that TomTom is not to blame here.

jmelloy• 14 years ago

It also could suggest that the .1 version will be a significant upgrade if the underlying date's good but it's being parsed wrong/deprioritized for OSM data/etc.

Better than if the underlying data is wrong, anyway.

smackfu3• 14 years ago

I haven't really heard many complaints about the quality of the road data. Like that turn-by-turn is telling you to go the wrong-way down one way streets, or make a turn that isn't allowed.

(In contrast, I've had Waze tell me to turn left off of an interstate highway onto an underpass road. Because no one had set that as a disallowed turn. That's bad map data.)

steve89186• 14 years ago

From a purely competitive standpoint, this is why Google should be releasing their Google Maps app immediately, and if Apple drags their feet, they should launch a lawsuit to force them to do so.

First off, it would probably be a really good PR move for Google.

Second, if Apple dragged their feet in terms of approval and Google sued them, it might force some changed in terms of how anti-competitively the App store behaves. I could totally see the Justice Dept or FTC stepping in the way they did with Microsoft.

Lastly, if Google added their maps app, it would immediately supplant the Apple app, and a lot less people would use Apple Maps. This would give Apple less data to make their maps better, and keep them at a competitive disadvantage for years.

salman895• 14 years ago

I disagree.

PR move wise, they've already won the PR battle. Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google (and now Android) has a superior maps offering. By offering a Google Maps app on the iPhone, it just gives customers one reason less to stick with Android.

It will be hard for Google to prove the anti-competitiveness of the App store. It would be quite interesting though - Android has the ability to use different App stores, while Apple certainly does not. It sounds unfair, but I wonder if a court feels the same way.

Pretty sure Apple will be at a disadvantage for years regardless. They've never been a data company as it is, and there's no reason to believe that they could suddenly go out and put together their own maps like Google has done. Better maps does not necessarily equate to having more usage data either.

rimantas2• 14 years ago

  > Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has
  > considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google
  > (and now Android) has a superior maps offering.

No. First of all new maps is feature of iOS6 which is no in hands of more than 50% of iOS users not feature of iPhone 5. Second, there are other places in the world where new maps app is as good or better than old one was. And we finally got turn-by-turn navigation.

  > They've never been a data company as it is

They've never been mobile phone makers before iPhone too, remember? "PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in". Let's not forget their map-related acquisitions and partnership with companies in the field.

steve89186• 14 years ago

They've won the current PR battle, but if they build a Google Maps for iOS, they will win the next PR battle.

If Apple is reluctant to approve a Google Maps app, and Google claims that they have the app ready and waiting but Apple won't approve it, customers will be pissed. This would put even more pressure on Apple.

Google could absolutely prove anti-competitiveness of the App store, by simply releasing the app that existed on iOS5. If it's the exact same app, with no new features, Google could ask the question why it was good enough for iOS5, but not iOS6. If Apple is restricting its availability simply because Apple has their own maps app, it could definitely be shown as being anti-competitive, and if the DOJ or FTC started to investigate this, Apple would be in heaps of trouble. Apple would be stupid to risk getting a decision forced down their throats by the government, a la Microsoft.

The one thing that Google may be doing is waiting until after Thanksgiving or Christmas in order to release their new App. They might be letting the bad press over Maps could hurt sales of iPhone 5, and then releasing an app after January.

79522• 14 years ago

Even if some iPhone 5 buyers are annoyed it will be a couple of years before most of them get another phone. By that time this issue will probably be resolved. The marketing hit is to people who upgraded older devices like the 3GS. These users could be looking to buy a new phone in the next six months and Android just became slightly more attractive.

tdfx• 14 years ago

I think the best strategic move for Google is to wait. They should allow the Maps issue to continue to tarnish the iPhone 5 launch for another month or two, then release their own Maps app that will capture the marketshare of iPhone power users (the people Apple actually needs who would send in problem reports). This would let the dark cloud remain over the iPhone 5 long enough to tarnish it in most peoples' minds, but not long enough to let Apple to get any substantial data improvements from it.

steve89186• 14 years ago

Actually, I now agree with this. Like I said below, they might be delaying it to hurt iPhone 5 sales, as you mentioned. This probably makes more sense from a competitive standpoint, and then using the time to build an even better app (with 3D according to the article) and then releasing it in January after the damage has been done. I guess there's only a small chance Apple will be able to make the Maps significantly better in 3 months.

untog3• 14 years ago

I disagree. Android is a means to an end- getting control over the user's mobile experience, and extracting data from that. While the obvious preference is for everyone to be using Android, that will never happen. So an iOS Maps app will give Google advertising, as well as location tracking, etc. etc.

Very valuable.

wheels• 14 years ago

There's a more important gamble in play at the moment:

Maps are not Siri, they're not a shiny aluminum cover or impressively slim industrial design: they are one of the core features that people own smartphones for. Would you really get a smartphone that had totally broken maps?

So there's a race: how much can Google steal Apple's thunder before Apple can build a reasonably competitive maps application? I suspect Google is considering how much permanent damage they can score to Apple's marketshare through this debacle.

dailyrorschach2• 14 years ago

I see this a few times on here about DOJ or FTC stepping on to Apple like Microsoft, and I think it's pretty off base.

In order for that to happen a few things need to occur. First, the government needs to prove that Apple has a monopoly. Here are some numbers from NPD on smartphone marketshare domestically: https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/pr...

Apple: 31 percent Samsung: 24 percent HTC: 15 percent Motorola: 12 percent LG: 6 percent

So right there, it's a tough case to make that Apple has a dominant market monopoly as compared to Microsoft in 1998.

Here's a CNET article I found quickly from 1999, one year-ish after the DOJ brought their case: http://news.cnet.com/Windows-95-remains-most-popular-operati...

Windows 95 57.4 Windows 98 17.2 Windows NT 11 Mac OS 5 DOS 3.8 Linux 2.1 Windows 3.11 1.1 Unix .8 OS/2 .5 Others 1

So at that time Windows accounted for roughly: 87% of the market! And then beyond the government determining they had a monopoly, they had to show that Microsoft was abusing it's monopoly in anticompetitive ways. They concluded they were through agreements with OEMs and others to keep other software off the machines. Basically OEMs would install Windows and IE, and not make deals to install Netscape or other software. And part of that decision also had to do with the fact that in 1998-2000 as broadband was nascent in much of the country, getting new software wasn't exactly as easy as a 5 minute or less download.

And even still there are legitimate criticisms of the US DOJ case against Microsoft.

Finally though, it doesn't seem to me that this could be done by DOJ/FTC at all. Apple doesn't have a market monopoly. Since it is a device that they produce hardware and software for, and have from the beginning asserted full control over the app store, and other market alternatives (often cheaper) readily exist, I wouldn't expect any action.

steve89186• 14 years ago

I didn't make a comment on previous behavior of Apple, or whether or not Apple has a monopoly. I was saying that Google could force Apple's hand in terms of how they behave in approving or rejecting apps, if Apple acts in an anti-competitive way with respect to a Google Maps app. If Apple doesn't play it right, it could draw the ire of the DoJ or FTC, which they definitely do not want.

If they don't allow a Google Maps app on the iPhone App Store, or if they drag their heels in approving the app, especially given all the outrage from the customers, I believe this is clearly anti-competitive behavior.

Once Google has one available, if Apple doesn't readily approve it, I think a very, very strong case could be made that they are holding back Google's app in order to help their App gain traction. Since only Apple has the power to approve or reject apps from the App Store, if that isn't the definition of anti-competitive, I don't know what is.

catfish4• 14 years ago

At Orange, we strive to make world-class products that deliver the best experience possible to our customers. Except when we feel that someone else is doing it better in which case we strive to eliminate the obviously superior product from our walled garden.

With the launch of our shitty Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment. We are sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers but we are doing everything we can to make shitty Maps better, except to provide you what you want right now, a working map.

We launched shitty Maps initially with the first version of Orange. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better shitty Maps including features such as really bad directions, never understands your voice integration, Flyover the wrong location and vector-based maps.

In order to do this, we had to create a new version of shitty Maps from the ground up, and though its not ready for prime time we are so worried about our competition that we dumped them prematurely from our walled garden and forced this abomination on you.

There are already more than 100 million Orange devices using the new shitty Maps, with more and more joining us every day. And you know that this is because we reduced your choice to our inferior product, which is what we have the right to do since we own your phone and you don't.

In just over a week, Orange users with the new shitty Maps have already searched for nearly half a billion locations and some actually did find a few locations. The more our customers use our Maps the sooner we will make another billion dollars and we greatly appreciate the fact you have no real choice now that you have our phone in your pocket.

While we’re improving shitty Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the Orange Store, but good luck finding them as we also created a new nightmare in our Apps store that makes replacing our shitty apps more difficult than ever. We know that the huge majority of Orange users won't have a clue as to what we mean by bookmarking, and of course that is just fine with us. Just use our maps anyway, just like we planned.

Everything we do at Orange is aimed at making our products the only product you use. We know that you expect that from us, and we will keep working non-stop until EVERYONE in our walled garden is tired of the BS and gets an Android.

fredoliveira2• 14 years ago

I don't see how your comment contributes to any meaningful discussion of this topic. I truly don't.

catfish4• 14 years ago

Satire is a contribution. Where those in power fail the truth test, satire has served since the dawn of print, to cast the light of truth on the half truths of the powerful.

jusben13694• 14 years ago

That was pretty good. Well played.

zalew• 14 years ago

for a moment I thought http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_%28telecommunications

alphakappa• 14 years ago

> While we’re improving shitty Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the Orange Store, but good luck finding them

Maybe you missed the part where they linked to an entire section of the store titled Map Apps.

SnydenBitchy2• 14 years ago

Look again! Your HN is now reddit.

verelo2• 14 years ago

This is pathetic. I'm surprised no one has hit them up with a false advertising claim over their phone not providing what they wanted (directions, in many cases transit directions)

I've not heard a single person using apple maps say "this is good", every single person states its a downgrade. Apple need to get their act together and realize what they've done is lost a major set of consumer confidence here and should do everything in their power to set the situation right.

I for one was about to do the switch from Android to iphone with the iphone 5 coming out. After seeing apple maps, i've decided that i'll probably just buy the new Nexus when it comes out. Maps are the most important app on my phone besides the dialer and text messaging...not having maps thats anything less than what i've got today is simply not something i'm willing to negotiate.

Google will and should do nothing, this is all completely in their favor at this point. IOS might just have taken its first fatal blow.

Someone2• 14 years ago

For what it is worth, IOS maps has more recent satellite images and more recent road maps from the centre of the city where I live than maps.google.com (the data from maps.google.com will happily show a continuous road that, nowadays, is only an entry to a parking garage)

The IOS 5 app has what looks like the same satellite data as maps.google.com, but even older road topology (it lacks the detour you need to not end up in that garage)

So, from the (tiny) part I checked, IOS 6 has better maps than IOS 5. It may be worse on average, but how would a user objectively evaluate a map app that covers the world?

verelo2• 14 years ago

I think the lack of transit directions, poor blending of map images (http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/505cae6969bedd427a0...) and the overall lack of detail is a massive reason to consider it a downgrade.

If you're honestly happier with this product then thats cool, but i'm not.

drewjoh• 14 years ago

I found this week the true extent of how terrible the new iOS Maps is, when I needed to find a hospital. We needed to go to the ER in the middle of the night, and were stuck waiting at a particular hospital that was nearest to us.

I knew there was another, better hospital with a better reputation down the freeway (perhaps 5 miles) and wanted to call to ask what their wait time was. I searched "hospital" and the nearest one provided was 25 miles away. I knew where the one I wanted was and it was no where to be found on iOS Maps.

I also searched for "emergency clinics" in various naming forms, knowing of the ones I would try first… and again, came up empty of all the ones that I knew existed.

I now have a shortcut to Google Maps on my home screen and will only use iOS maps for turn-by-turn directions. I was very frustrated to begin with that night, and Apple disaster of a Map app didn't help.

factorizer• 14 years ago

The real question is: douchebags or losers? I'm going for a combination of both.

Revex• 14 years ago

I can't believe Apple is essentially saying, "Whoops, my bad, here try some other stuff while we fix out mistake." It is really kind of surreal. But good on them for being candid.

I almost lost it when they said to add Google maps as a web app. That seriously made me groan out loud.

ilamont• 14 years ago

I think this is a case where user testing with Apple employees or a trusted focus group failed. For something like maps, which is inherently focused on widely diverse geographies, road setups, and use cases, having just a few hundred testers (most of them in the Bay Area) won't reveal the problems for 99%+ of iPhone owners who live somewhere else.

madewulf• 14 years ago

Am I the only one to think that such an apology requires guts and honesty?

Kudos for that.

padobson• 14 years ago

Who thought we'd ever see an Apple CEO actually telling customers to use a competing product to something Apple made while they were the CEO?

skyebook• 14 years ago

So basically, Tim Cook says: "Use it! Or don't."

It would've been nice to see OpenStreetMap get some mention though, as users who think OSM sucks can improve it and indirectly improve iOS maps at the same time.

spinchange• 14 years ago

I would like to know more about this. It's completely not mentioned in the conversation (not just Tim's apology) at all. I know the new app incoroprates traffic data from Waze but they don't talk about OSM involvement at all.

vbl• 14 years ago

Now I need a letter apologizing about the finish chipping off and the total lack of cases in the marketplace.

eyko2• 14 years ago

He's so full of shit.

MojoJolo• 14 years ago

He doesn't mention OpenStreet Map as an alternative!

jasonkolb• 14 years ago

He didn't address why they couldn't release them side-by-side for a year or so to get feedback on the new product before relying on it as the sole bundled maps product.

jusben13694• 14 years ago

Hmmm. Contrite lasted two paragraphs before we got some defiant bragging about just how great Apple is with "There's already 100 million users!!" Just in case we wondered whether an inflated sense of self importance might have helped contribute to this fiasco ;-)

What should they have said? Simply "The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get and we greatly appreciate all of the feedback we have received from you" would have gotten the point across.

w_t_payne• 14 years ago

I really did think that Apple had a policy of never apologizing. It seems that I was wrong. A great deal of kudos to Tim Cook for the apology. Perhaps an end to Apple's monumental hubris and arrogance is in sight?

zerostar07• 14 years ago

That's what apple sells, a brand. Once they become commodity, it's all gone.

electic• 14 years ago

More than this letter, I would love if they update their product page as well and remove the "Amazing Maps" section from their website.

josteink3• 14 years ago

IOW: Apple admits iOS maps is a complete failure.

It least they didn't pretend otherwise, like with mobileme.

ChuckMcM2• 14 years ago

I wonder if they considered re-licensing with Google for a while and releasing their own 'App' in the App Store to compete. It would get downloaded if only because it had turn by turn and the licensed product did not. Then offering people perhaps some perks for helping improve it, allowed it to live side by side with Google's maps until it was ready to take over.

stephenhuey2• 14 years ago

Someone was telling me only a couple of days ago about a time when Google Maps guided her to a nonexistent building out in the middle of nowhere next to some farm field in Pennsylvania. That story and some of my own Google Maps Fail experiences wouldn't scare me off of Google Maps since the tool, although sometimes mistaken, is much better than what I used to navigate back in the 90s! Reminds me of Louis C.K. joking about people complaining about not being able to get on WiFi when they're magically sitting in a chair 30,000 feet up in the sky. Apple wanted to build a mapping tool, and they'd probably get complaints from folks on here no matter whether they started with an excellent data source or whether they broke from their tradition and took a gutsy move that might hurt the user experience for a while. :)

tarr11• 14 years ago

Standards are much higher for maps than when Maps was new (just as they are for planes)

You wouldn't want Apple building iPlane this way, right?

stephenhuey2• 14 years ago

I will give you that. My iPhone 4 is actually still on iOS 5 because I've felt hesitant and wanted to hear more feedback before I downloaded the upgrade. But I can honestly say that Google Maps has failed me and others many times, so it'd be interesting to know if the "failure" rates of the two mapping solutions are closer than one might expect, and that people are just posting the Apple ones online because iOS 6 is under more scrutiny at the moment.

fotoblur• 14 years ago

Curious, I've heard many times now that by simply using Apples new mapping app it will get better when more people use it. I have yet to understand how that process works. Can anyone elaborate? Thanks.

petegrif• 14 years ago

It's great that he apologized, but it shouldn't have been a surprise. The problems that I have had are so gross, so blindingly obvious, that the most cursory use would have revealed problems. Hence he cannot of himself used the product, which is kinda sad.

harywilke• 14 years ago

I wonder how long till apple makes something similar to google's mapmaker. watch map edits in real time for a while and you'll see the power of local people for fixing a lot of map issues. http://www.google.com/mapmaker/pulse

jdechko• 14 years ago

I'm fortunate enough to live in an area with pretty good coverage by the new Maps. I'm also savvy enough to point out errors, as I'm sure most people on HN and other various tech sites are.

I'm not saying that it isn't a big stumble for Apple, because it is, but it's only going to get better (not that it can get much worse for some). Apparently maps are hard. Apple already knows this, and most of us are figuring this out too. But Apple have the resources to make it better, and I am willing to help.

This move was inevitable for Apple; it had to happen sooner or later, and the longer they waited, the bigger the gap they'd have to make up to be "on par" with Google Maps.

And Apple should start with a web interface to the maps. It would make correcting data a lot easier.

tharris0101• 14 years ago

Obviously the maps app should never have been released. Beta testing showed that it had issues. I give props to Tim Cook, though. Steve Jobs would have never apologized like this.

I'm worried about Apple's software development lately (Lion, iTunes Match, Maps) but this apology makes me feel a little better about them acknowledging mistakes and working to fix it. I know they obviously have the in-house talent, they just need to get quality control back to mid-2000s form. Hopefully this dust-up over maps wakes them up.

IanDrake2• 14 years ago

Now I'm convinced Apple is in trouble.

It's not in Apple's DNA to apologize. Jobs would have said "We are building the most revolutionary mapping system ever created. This is an active endeavor and if it doesn't currently meet your needs we have at least 100 other mapping apps in the app store."

And then Jobs wouldn't have said anything else about the subject and moved on.

The reality distortion field is fading fast with Cook in charge. Jobs would have made everyone think they're part of a mapping revolution. Cook has allowed everyone to think they got ripped off.

siglesias3• 14 years ago

Oh please.

1) http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/

2) http://www.applegazette.com/dotmac/apple-issues-mobileme-apo...

To name a couple. Let's take a deep breath. It's going to be okay.

IanDrake2• 14 years ago

The first one isn't a technical problem. And the second isn't from Jobs.

Here's the problem. Apple's technology has flaws. Jobs was great at convincing people that flaws were features. I believe his ability was fundamental to their success.

Cook admits flaws are flaws and this could slowly start to change people's perception of Apple's products.

RutZap• 14 years ago

I think that this "Jobs would have done" attitude is wrong and far from constructive. First of all Jobs wasn't a genius, wasn't a saint, he was a very good techy entrepreneur. I think this is the right move on from Apple; they messed up big time and now they apologised for it.

And regarding Jobs.. get over it... he probably would have done a lot of things but he is sadly not among us anymore so stop guessing what he would have done or wouldn't have done.

robomartin3• 14 years ago

What to say? The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels unprecedented.

Not one person posting on HN and the many blogs really knows what happened behind the scenes. Apple engineers are not known for being dumb. Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.

So the question might very well be: Why did they do it?

This couldn't have been out of spite. Just to kick Google off the platform. One just doesn't do that. Maintaining a complex code-base such as iOS is difficult enough. Adding to that the friction of delivering a substandard product is not something one does without very good reasons.

Conjecture is all we have from the outside. My humble guess is that it had to come down to a business deal they did not want to make. The details of the deal are not important. Who was right and who was wrong isn't important. What is important is that whatever they had in front of them convinced Apple management that it they had no choice but to, effectively, downgrade the next release with Maps.

I already know of a lot of non-tech people, particularly outside the US, who are livid about Maps. After dutifully upgrading their devices to iOS 6 they discover that Maps are, in their words, "crap", "useless", "unreliable", "a joke", "not accurate", "una mierda" (shit), etc. The reason for the strong feelings is that, let's face it, if a good tool such as Google Maps is available to you, you might tend to use it.

And a lot of people would use it all the time. My own wife relies on Google Maps all the time. Thankfully she was wise enough to marry a geek who promptly told her not to upgrade her iPhone 4S to iOS 6 and not to swap it out for an iPhone 5. In fact, not one person in my family will do either of those things. And that is the case --that has to be the case-- for millions of people at this point.

This is the data we are not getting and that Apple will probably never release. I own eight iOS devices. Not one of them will be upgraded to iOS 6. In fact, the upgrades stop here until either Maps starts to get really good marks. And, of course, we probably would have purchased at least three iPhone 5's. Not happening. I'll get one for development but it will not be activated.

How many millions are in this boat? If someone is a heavy Google Maps user it makes no sense to get an iPhone 5. What's wrong with a 4S? Nothing. Use their website you say? Not the same, most would say.

As a developer there's a lesson that needs reinforcing every-so-often. What better way to reinforce it than to see a tech giant make some of the mistakes lesser companies make: If you can at all help it, don't base your product on someone else's technology. Don't make someone else's technology such an important part of your offering that not having them will hurt you. Of course, sometimes you have no choice.

As a user and a developer I view iOS 6 as a significant, if not huge, step backwards. Between Maps and the eviscerated app store one has to ask that cliche-ish question: What were they thinking?

Wouldn't we like to know.

Zimahl• 14 years ago

Maps is just one item in the iPhone launch that doesn't look to good for Apple. Sure, they are going to sell millions of iPhone 5s but it's the little things that have just never happened:

1. Maps is in beta, when Apple never let anyone see anything without polish.

2. There were no cases or accessories in the Apple store. Best Buy has third party stuff as do other stores. But that is money left on the table for someone else to pick up.

3. No adapters. The local Apple store didn't get any and doesn't expect them for weeks.

I half-joked to my wife that this post-Jobs era is already starting to unravel. Only half because I worry I am right and I don't want to be.

loumf• 14 years ago

Jobs was well known for being biased to shipping over having a perfect product aka "Real Artists Ship". The first version of OSX had non-functional CD writing, from what I recall (fixed in the first update). Siri was released as beta, attenagate, the iMovie and Final Cut rewrites -- these all happened under Jobs.

seiji2• 14 years ago

Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.

They know exactly that. Luckily, it's a server driven service, so over time everything can magically get better. They are going to aggressively harvest user data throughout the getting better process. Their options were: launch bad and get better as fast as possible (using millions of devices for feedback) or spend a few years doing things by hand then still releasing something subpar. Rip the bandaid off now.

In every other case HN screams "more data > clever algorithms!" -- this is their way of more data. It'll be painful at first, but it will get better quickly. It has only been a week since public public release. It has been sucking in betas for months too. None of this is new, exciting, or newsworthy. Release your burdens and get back to work.

untog3• 14 years ago

So, use your paying customers as beta testers? Not an ideal solution.

dmd2• 14 years ago

People keep saying "this is their way of more data". Can someone explain exactly how this data is acquired? If I enter an address, and it gives me the wrong location, how does it know that it was wrong? How does it get better data?

scottmey• 14 years ago

Completely agree. Perhaps I don't rely on the app as much as others, but I do find myself using it at least once a week. I personally haven't had any real problems since launch. But expected there to be quite a few hurdles at first. I'm an iOS user, but don't consider myself a fanboy. But I expect them to really push this and create something beautiful and useful over time, hopefully sooner than later. I'm anxiously awaiting.

cooldeal4• 14 years ago

>this is their way of more data. It'll be painful at first, but it will get better quickly

Reporting mapping errors on a small device is painful and cumbersome, especially if you're outdoors or trying to get somewhere. Like Google, Bing or Nokia maps, can you access and report errors in the maps from a laptop or desktop? If not, this process is going to be way slower.

spaghetti• 14 years ago

Just want to point out that back-end improvements alone aren't sufficient to have Apple's Maps be on par with Google Maps. Adding something like Street View to Maps will require non-trivial updates to the iOS app (not to mention the colossal task of gathering and processing the street view data).

ralfd5• 14 years ago

The old Maps app was also coded by Apple. Is there any (legal? practical?) reason why they didn't collect usage data from that?

shrikant• 14 years ago

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/

> We want to do the right thing for our valued iPhone customers. We apologize for disappointing some of you, and we are doing our best to live up to your high expectations of Apple.

Steve Jobs

Apple CEO

techpeace• 14 years ago

Gizmodo claims to know why Google Maps were dropped: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4577866

According to their sources, Google was keeping Apple from adding turn-by-turn directions without complying to some conditions that were too onerous for Apple.

cooldeal4• 14 years ago

> Apple engineers are not known for being dumb. Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.

Maps is a unique problem in that it's hard to judge quality without doing field tests all over the world. I guess Apple management/engineers/testers live in and did most of their testing in SFO/CA/West Coast/US in that order which gave them a skewed idea of how good or bad the maps were.

RandallBrown• 14 years ago

I've found the new maps app is dramatically better in most ways. Turn by turn navigation is fantastic. Lack of public transit is a huge downer.

I guess I just live somewhere with decent map data.

bproper• 14 years ago

Google was not going to give them turn-by-turn and they didn't want to keep falling behind. The only choice was to pull off the band-aid, release an inferior service, and then improve it with the help of users.

azakai• 14 years ago

Yes, exactly. I'm not sure why some people think this is still a mystery - Apple's negotiation with Google on adding features like turn-by-turn navigation to iOS maps failed (we don't know who if anyone was at fault, but it is reasonable to assume Google would be cautious about adding a powerful feature to the main competitor of Android).

Nelson69• 14 years ago

Didn't Netflix issues an apology for their attempted split?

Regarding knowing maps wasn't up to snuff... I think people knew but it's a funny thing. I worked on satellite receivers in a different life and TV has become such a ubiquitous and reliable enough service, you'd be amazed at how people just freak the hell out when their complex HD dual tuner PVR does something that's not as expected; just freak the hell out and scream at support folks. Little old ladies watching re-runs that they've seen before would melt down, it was interesting, almost like drug withdrawal or something. (Enough so that for certain events: the SuperBowl, the Academy Awards, sweeps season) they wouldn't do system updates. Maps is maybe a little less like that but it's much more personal, I've used the new maps with no problems but I just did a couple basic searches to check it out. However when you're counting on it to get you somewhere and it fails and you're late for whatever it is or you can't make a purchase because you're not at the store and it impacts you directly it's probably pretty upsetting. Gauging that personal rage is more difficult and I expect there are areas where the new maps really kills it, I bet the guys in Cupertino don't have problems with it doing their day to day stuff.. Don't forget, we didn't have these maps not that long ago, hard as it seems now pre-iPhone next to nobody was using this stuff, now it's substantial navigational aid.

As a society, we sort of like it when #1 has some trouble. Sort of like Toyota's problems a couple years back. The real question is is this going to raise the benchmark? Say Apple takes it to heart completely, it's hard to compete with them now, what's it look like if they step it up more? It certainly says something to google maps' quality, maybe some more competition is a good thing.

Splines• 14 years ago

It would be interesting to know how much decisions at Google had to play in all this happening. I'm sure they knew how much value they added to Apple's platform, and with the continued rise of Android it's certainly possible they saw this as an opportunity to have yet another reason for customers to leave iOS and come to Android.

The iPhone 5 and iOS 6 are merely evolutions of what came before them, and there are very few reasons for people to upgrade. Apple runs a real risk of losing customers over this (i.e., people keep their perfectly good iDevice and buy an Android/WP device to try them out). Maybe this is the proverbial kick in the pants that Apple needs to make sure the next iPhone and iOS version are more baked coming out the door.

robrenaud• 14 years ago

> As a developer there's a lesson that needs reinforcing every-so-often. What better way to reinforce it than to see a tech giant make some of the mistakes lesser companies make: If you can at all help it, don't base your product on someone else's technology. Don't make someone else's technology such an important part of your offering that not having them will hurt you. Of course, sometimes you have no choice.

It seems like this is evidence of the opposite. Apple based its technology on another company, and it became the most valuable company in the world. It stopped using the other companies tech, and then it was forced to make an embarrassing public apology.

DigitalJack2• 14 years ago

That is pretty superficial. Apple wanted turn by turn directions on the built in maps app for years. Google wouldn't license it.

That is a lesson on the risks of depending on other platforms.

However, we are all dependent on others all the time. It really can't be avoided entirely. It's just a matter of degree and managing risk.

WiseWeasel• 14 years ago

Apple had an existing agreement with Google for the data used in the old Maps app for one more year, and they chose to terminate it early. They could have released New Maps alongside Old Maps, made them optional for a year while the data matures, and none of this would have been an issue.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/25/3407614/apple-over-a-year-...

jad• 14 years ago

> What to say? The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels unprecedented.

Steve Jobs held a press conference for "Antennagate": http://www.apple.com/apple-events/july-2010/

mapgrep2• 14 years ago

He also decried most of the controversy as confusion and press hype. "We're not perfect, phones aren't perfect."

This letter says "We are extremely sorry." Extremely! Imagine Steve Jobs saying, "I am extremely sorry" is tough to imagine. Possible, but tough to imagine.

revelation2• 14 years ago

That is so awesome. I've never seen it until now. They start off with a terrible random YouTube video crying over "GizModo propaganda". They then spend a minute on how they are not perfect, matched only by the following 9 minutes for showing how others are not perfect.

Then they tell everyone "you're just holding it wrong" and insult people with "X marks the spot" and "look at this beautiful line here".

I couldn't stand much more after that. That is not an apology, it's a display of arrogance. And some might very well claim that this whole Map thing is a result of the dysfunctional work environment people are under at Apple.

eternalban• 14 years ago

Loved the ending about "behind the scenes" and "take care of everyone". Mafia reading of this was that overseas distributors of cases got unhappy and put out the videos. Apple says so solly, and now "everybody" is happy again.

markerdmann• 14 years ago

When people say Maps is a "huge step backwards", are they actually using the product? I mostly use my phone for driving directions, and the addition of turn-by-turn navigation has been a huge step forward. Maybe I'm the one iPhone user in the world who thinks Maps is awesome, but that seems unlikely. It seems more likely that this is just another case of the "vocal minority" being amplified by uncritical journalists. Remember what happened when Facebook first released the News Feed? :-)

nilsbunger• 14 years ago

It seems like in Europe and especially UK, it's truly bad. In the SF Bay Area, it's reasonably functional for me, but there are enough mistakes (from my own usage, not looking for problems) that I don't fully trust it.

And that's the problem - if I don't fully trust it, it loses a lot of its utility. I downloaded the Bing app as a backup. I still like the new UI and the turn-by-turn.

starik36• 14 years ago

Thanks. I love the new maps too. The step by step audio cues and especially visuals are delightful and feels right.

The only missing use case for me is street view. I've used it extensively in the past to look at houses when I was home shopping.

robomartin3• 14 years ago

It is obvious that they have better data for certain parts of the world.

The problem with maps is that if your data is, say, 10% bad or inaccurate (whatever that means) and you are serving two billion searches per week you have to contend with tens of millions of unhappy users. Bad problem to have.

Will they fix it? Probably. How long? Someone far more knowledgeable of the challenges in mapping will have to answer that one.

For me and those close to me it is about the potential to break something that works very well right now. That alone is keeping us from upgrading software and hardware. It's the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" saying.

As for turn-by-turn. I live in SoCal. I rarely need it. When I do, I throw an old GPS I keep in the car on the dashboard and it works just fine. Most of the time (99% ?) I use Google Maps on my 4S.

esrauch• 14 years ago

I can't speak for others, but switching to Apple Maps would be more than a huge step backwards for me, it's pretty much 90% of the way to useless.

My primary use of maps is public transit directions. Not having turn-by-turn is an inconvenience that is fixed, but losing public transit isn't just an inconvenience; there is no work around to get the directions I need at all.

For any feature there is going to be some subset of users that pretty much only use that one feature, so I can't really say how common of a user I am in that regard.

BitMastro• 14 years ago

This is a more scientific approach to the problem http://www.mtonic.com/applemaps/

burke• 14 years ago

When it works, it's better. However, it does not work as often.

I was stranded at O'Hare earlier this week, and United put me up at the "Crown Plaza", according to my hotel voucher. I searched for "Crown Plaza" in iOS6 maps, and was suddenly transported to Vancouver. In Google Maps, it correctly surmised I was actually looking for the nearby "Crowne Plaza".

iOS6 maps is 95% as good as google maps, but the missing 5% really hurts.

hcarvalhoalves3• 14 years ago

The Maps.app itself is a lot better. The sad thing is that Google has the best mapping data out there, they have been investing, collecting and tweaking it for years. Now everything that isn't Google Maps is substandard by default.

grey-area3• 14 years ago

When people say Maps is a "huge step backwards", are they actually using the product?

Where do you live? If you live in the Valley, I'm sure it's fine, in fact I'm sure it's great, but elsewhere in the world the map data is pretty bad, much worse than Google Maps. People aren't all complaining about turn by turn directions in the US, they're complaining about basic flaws in map data around the world. So yes, they are using it, and it is not great.

Both the satellite data and the map data is woeful in some areas, some of it is so bad that I'm surprised they included it at all. Here are some examples which don't compare favourably with OSM or Google:

"Brighton, UK", Satellite - a big UK city is so blurry you can't see streets.

"Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands" - ends up in the middle of the sea, and no roads on the islands at all.

"Colchester" - satellite shows clouds, in B&W over a UK city

"Senkaku Islands" - compare satellite with standard to see actual duplicates of these disputed islands in the vector map data.

"Puno,Peru"- in lake Titicaca

"Central St Martins" - a major London college which relocated last year is still shown at its old address. The new address, which has been a warehouse for many years, is shown as a park named 'King's Cross Central' which doesn't exist. If their data on major cities is this bad, consider how bad the rural areas will be.

This is a really hard problem, and frankly I'm surprised Apple tried to without an extensive beta and data collection period in order to bring their data up to scratch. Just to give you an example of the sort of advantage this hands Google - Last weekend I tried to find a postcode in central London, and it wasn't found (N1C 4AA, a relatively new postcode for a major new development, but visible in Google and OSM with lots of detail). A colleague with an SIII found it no problem. That kind of comparison is a big problem for Apple.

spotman• 14 years ago

I feel the same way. However I also live in California. I feel like its extremely accurate here, but it is also where it was essentially born. So it is not surprising it needs more work in other places. For everyone I know that lives here and uses it with normal habits, it seems to work just as good.

In time, and I suspect shorter than people estimate, the data quality will vastly improve. No software is perfect on the first release, and apples software is no exception. iTunes used to be glitchy in its early days, me.com was terrible when it first came out, but these issues have been rectified for the most part.

Google maps once led me 18 miles into the middle of nowhere for a dentist appointment. Sure, this error is fixed now, but the dentist office shows up correctly on maps. So It seems like here (in California) the data is better than it was when google maps was new.

I suspect by end of year, the majority of use-cases will work fine in many more places than california. Who knows, but if I were betting.. :)

mtanski• 14 years ago

Durring launch week I updated my iPad to iOS6 and used to drive from NYC to Washington DC and back. Addition of turn by turn navigation is a big step forward. So I'm pretty happy.

And as a side note I recently switched back to an iPhone after the latest Google Maps update caused my phone to hard lock and reboot. Take a look here: http://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-4703 It affected my previous HTC Sensational device. Basically maps, or mapping services (which is a lot of apps including background ones) randomly caused your phone to reboot.

bicknergseng3• 14 years ago

I would just like to point out that the lack of turn by turn nav in Google Maps on iOS was an Apple decision, not a Google one. Nav has been available in Google maps on Android for a long time now. Hell, they have decent biking turn by turn.

ChuckMcM2• 14 years ago

Well I am, upgraded my iPad to iOS 6 and that leaves me with Apple Maps in the maps app. A number of places around San Carlos California aren't in their maps "by default", if you search for them it can find the Yelp reviews and then put down a push pin. So before when I was 'searching' for a place to eat I could look at the map and see all the restaurants and find what I wanted, now I see some but not nearly a representative batch. Actually searching for something like Pizza or Mexican food will drop down a dozen pins and more than half of them land on what is drawn as blank space on the map.

So perhaps Google was just better at guessing the kinds of queries I might be making when I opened maps.

cyclinghacker• 14 years ago

I'm in London, and I'd say it's a small step backwards. The points of interest from Yelp appear to be consistently off by about 10 metres, and many points of interest are missing altogether. I do like the way you can click on a point of interest, which is something you couldn't do in the old Maps app.

So far, all the addresses I've tried are correct, and the driving directions and speech recognition are a step forward. The tube/bus directions from Google were always inaccurate, so I was already using a dedicated app.

greggman• 14 years ago

I've been using WAZE for months and before that GPS Drive. Better turn by turn has been available on iPhone for a while. There's no excuse for Apple's poor offering

skrause• 14 years ago

In Germany you pretty much have no data as soon as you leave the streets for cars. While driving directions might actually be okay, as soon as you walk around and leave the city roads it's getting bad. And even if they have the data, it's displayed in a horrible color palette, a lack of contrast and a very low information desitity:

http://i.imgur.com/Dktjo.jpg - This is the view of a nearby wood in Apple Maps. Take a look at those thin grey lines in the big green area. I'm not sure if I could see them on the map walking there in bright sunlight. If you zoom out just a little more, the trails vanish completely from the map and the whole screen is just a big green area. To actually see a trail well enough you have to zoom in so much that you lose the overview and don't know where you're actually looking.

http://i.imgur.com/DDx7R.png - This is the same are in Google Maps. Great contrast, good color palette and you can distinguish the larger from the smaller trails and roads. There's also a lot more information.

guelo• 14 years ago

Did you not just read Tim Cook admit that the new Maps is inferior?

ihodes• 14 years ago

Using Maps in NYC is a joke. Aside from no public trans (not a big deal; that's easy enough to work around), it's totally wrong with POIs. It even places the Met about, oh, 100 blocks south of where it actually is. Absolutely worthless.

willyt• 14 years ago

I live in a remote rural area in the UK, I just tried it again and the routing and postcode information that was wrong the day it came out is now corrected. Google maps had the same problems 2-3 years ago. I remember because they once directed me the wrong way and I missed a ferry.

As for business listings, its not like this is a solved problem. Everyone knows that google maps is not perfect for that. It's not as bad as apple maps but it's wrong enough of the time that I don't trust it, every now and then I forget it doesn't work and find myself standing outside a delivery bay, late for an appointment... I suspect most people google for a store/company/whatever, check the website to see if it offers what they want then copy paste the zip/postcode from the contact page into the maps app to get them close enough.

Apple's biggest problem is that they botched the PR, even if they fix the zip/postcode data quickly, no one will believe its fixed for a long time now.

timedoctor• 14 years ago

Yes I'm using the new IOS maps, and yes it's pretty bad. Searched for a bar I wanted to go to in my city and it wanted to send me to Italy (other end of the earth).

Would love to revert to IOS 5 if it's possible

steevdave• 14 years ago

It entirely depends on your usage. My coworker uses them for turn by turn and that works great for him. I use it for transit, and it's not so great.

I get that they wanted to open up transit for other apps (or couldn't build it in for some reason) but I really do hate the amount of times I have to tap to get bus info now. I would much rather the integration.

For this, Google Maps works great, except when the bus site isn't working properly, which tends to be once a year when we have a massive influx of people come to town.

danielharan• 14 years ago

So, "worksforme", for a car-driving lifestyle in California?

One of the main critiques has been the removal of transit directions. It was missing Shibuya station. For heaven's sake, that's like missing Grand Central Station. People in NYC would be shorting APPL...

Well, it's a FUBAR on that scale. It's just not visible if you drive a car, especially in California.

andyjohnson03• 14 years ago

"Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know. So the question might very well be: Why did they do it?"

A theory:

Maybe they did it because Apple has an unhealthy, top-down corporate culture that doesn't encourage dissent or whistle-blowing? Nobody said stop because it isn't the Apple way?

To me (not an Apple user or Apple employee) their corporate culture, their values, are defined by secrecy, leader-worship, and a particular kind arrogance. Not necessarily at the level of individual employees, but throughout the organisation as a whole. In such environments, especially when the company is highly successful and seems to be able to do no wrong, it becomes difficult for individuals and even groups to say stop. And even bad ideas and technologies gain momentum.

Apple is a great company, make great products, and deserve their success. I just hope that Tim Cook is trying to get rid of the leader worship that surrounded Steve Jobs.

GBKS• 14 years ago

At the same time, Google has a much more transparent culture and it still ended up with the Nexus Q, which was swiftly put on hold just a few weeks after it was announced.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/31/3207482/nexus-q-consumer-l...

hcarvalhoalves3• 14 years ago

Too much judgment.

You're assuming Apple had other choice other than make a Maps.app from the ground up. I don't think it's the case. All the apps that used Google's data (YouTube, Maps) just stopped getting updates after Android. It's obvious their contract with Google ended and they had to ship something. I'm sure everybody acknowledged the solution was subpar, just saying "it sucks, don't ship it" isn't a solution.

furyofantares• 14 years ago

This is interesting, it sounds like you don't have any first-hand experience with Maps being awful but are advising everyone you know not to upgrade to iOS 6.

Is that correct? I'm not saying it's unreasonable. It isn't the path I'd take though, and I find it a bit surprising.

I'm also curious, you say you have eight iOS devices and won't be upgrading any of them because of Maps. Do you use Maps on all of them? Or is your choice to upgrade none of them more about taking a stand?

danilocampos• 14 years ago

> This feels unprecedented.

Hardly so – Apple had to issue a similar mea culpa for Mobile Me back around this time in 2008. The big difference is that instead of apologizing to a small subset of customers, Apple has had to address all iOS 6 users. So this time it has to come from the CEO. (But don't think for a minute Steve didn't help pen the last one.)

They've been here, with a mouthful of crow, before. Large-scale, cloud-based services are not in Apple's DNA, so every time they try it seems to hurt the first time around.

loceng• 14 years ago

Similar issue with cell reception ... I still somewhat believe this is all purposeful. Their cult following wants them to succeed, and they will want to support them - so when a crappy product turns into gold (future release) they will cheer and all will forget --- except everyone's talking about Apple now, and Maps. Is all publicity good publicity? It's possible with the right factors at play IMHO.

alexqgb• 14 years ago

Definitely not unprecedented.

I keep thinking it mirrors the introduction of Final Cut Pro X, in that a fundamentally broken product was dropped, without warning, on a group of users who relied on it heavily. Meanwhile, FCP 7 was yanked from the market at the exact same time - again, without warning - meaning (very) established users couldn't continue to rely on a very good system until the "improved" system was actually improved.

I remember seeing an extraordinary amount of dismissiveness on this very board from people with no media or post experience who were sneeringly characterizing editors and post-producers as neo-luddites who simply didn't understand technology (!) and who didn't want to change. The idea that Apple could have taken a big step backwards and tripped while doing so seemed like anathema. "Clearly" the fault must be with the users. "You just have to adapt to what MUST be good for you" came the refrain.

From the perspective of people who actually knew what they were doing, this came as insult added to injury. All the cloying remarks about Apple "simply moving the cheese (to a better spot!)" missed the real point, which is that Apple had made the cheese inedible then thrown it off a cliff. And they'd done so without warning, leaving a lot of heavy investments in equipment, media, and skills in the lurch.

Because it all this played out in a specialized niche, most people ignored it. Apple's chief competitors (Avid and Adobe) jumped on it, and life moved on - with Apple's once-sterling reputation in the professional post-production market forever dimmed.

Now that the same pattern is playing out with Maps. The big differences are (a) Maps are insanely mainstream - everybody notices this (b) Maps - unlike video editing - are absolutely central to mobile computing in general and (c) Mobile computing is clearly the future of not just Apple, but computing in general. So now there's a replay of the FCP X blowback, but this time, it's headline news worldwide. And the obvious response (switch to another system) isn't one Apple can afford having this many people make.

I have no idea what prompted this fiasco. Much of it may be external to Apple (e.g. a Google deal they couldn't live with). But judging from the reckless and completely unnecessary way they botched the FCP 7-X transition, I suspect something unique to Apple's culture is on display here.

It isn't pretty. But judging from the letter, Tim Cook seems to get it. They really Really REALLY need to get Maps right, and I really hope they do. The iPhone5 is beautiful, but I'm holding onto my 4S and its access to Google.

joelrunyon• 14 years ago

Okay, Maps are bad, but this type of overreaction is from people who secretly think that Apple is doomed now that Jobs is gone.

>The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels unprecedented.

This is a gross overreaction and just a few examples from the comments below indicate Apple not only did this with earlier computing products, but did with the original iPhone, the antennae issue a while back. Netflix did too with their Quickster debacle.

Calm down. Maps is bad, but it will be fixed. Apple is still the most valuable company in the world. The iPhone 5 is still in the top 95% of devices on the market. Things will be okay.

brudgers• 14 years ago

Apple has used the P.T. Barnum strategy of even bad press is beneficial.

By releasing a crap version of Maps:

1. Everyone now knows that Apple has their own version of Maps.

2. The story has become, "Look how hard Apple is working to make it better."

One can see this in the Tech press already, e.g. Apple posting jobs, hiring ex-Googler's and Cooke's letter have supplanted criticism.

It is inevitable that the next release of maps will be covered with great fanfare and that the bulk of the stories will praise Apple for how much improvement they have made. Cooke's sincerity and the key hiring strategy will be mentioned. In other words, no matter how far behind their competition the next release of maps is, the standard narrative will reflect positively on Apple.

All of this is based on the fact that the quality of Maps is not a critical component of the decision tree within the market segment which buys iOS devices. Yes, there is perhaps a meaningful minority of people for whom Maps is a deal breaker when it comes to an iPhone. The same doesn't hold true when it comes to iPads or iPods. "Nobody" buys an iPod as a GPS [scare quotes because there is someone hacker who has].

JulianMorrison• 14 years ago

Almost certainly, the problem is their war on Android. Google wouldn't hestitate to use Maps as leverage.

crag2• 14 years ago

Unprecedented for Apple maybe. Look Apple never admits to any bugs or issues until it (the issue) gets main stream press. Then fall over themselves offering explanations and feel good messages like "We make great products for you!". Remember Antenna Gate? Or Mobile Me? This letter is basically the same thing.

There's a LONG list of bugs/issues in OSX and IOS that have been around for years. Some of these issues have huge threads on Apple's own forums. They might get around to fixing them. But the reason some of these haven't been fixed is lack of press. Which is sad really.

Look, I've been an Apple fan-boy from way back (longer than many of you have been alive). And I am getting damn tired of Apple's "perfect world". I bet they released Apple Maps really not expecting any complaints. Really. Apple is probably shocked at the reaction.

But I also bet that the majority of people using IOS6 don't have problems with Maps.

MrFoof• 14 years ago

Feels a bit similar to after the iPhone launch, when they cut the price a bit and gave the early adopters a $100 credit.

Again, when had a hardware company ever done such a thing?

epo4• 14 years ago

It takes 2 to tango, Apple would not have done this without a gun at their heads. iOS maps were clearly behind the state of the art and it was, for some reason, impossible to modernise them.

The gossip is that Google requested unacceptable licensing changes. Whatever the truth is, this situation is due to Apple and Google being unable to reach an agreement. Apple can and will recover this situation within a few months and, if Google dropped them into this situation, they will be looking for an opportunity to exact revenge.

mpchlets• 14 years ago

Software companies always issues letters of sorry. Maybe you are just not paying attention or have no idea what is going on in the software community. Or perhaps you prefer this flavor of kool-aid. Apple had 3 options: 1. Delay release of product 2. Pull maps, release 3. Release an app with bugs They chose 3. So what, happens all the time. But don't call this letter noble nor novel.

mchusma• 14 years ago

Loosing simultaneous voice and data was a painful lesson too. Was trying to get a taxi, they asked the address, it wasn't on the building. Tried to look it up, realized I couldn't.

MisterMerkin• 14 years ago

>This couldn't have been out of spite. Just to kick Google off the platform.

I think you are being generous. I really think that's what it was about. It actually is the Occam's Razor explanation.

at-fates-hands• 14 years ago

I'm thinking Apple didn't want to partner with Microsoft simply out of pride. After all the years Jobs and Gates went at each other, there's still legions of people on both sides who will never use the other companies products.

Just for the record, the Bing Mobile Maps application is top notch. I've used it frequently and the quality of the maps and interaction is slightly above the Android Google version.

cheeseprocedure• 14 years ago

Wow. When was the last time Apple officially recommend another company's product as a workaround?

Naushad• 14 years ago

Issue a defective product and crowd source data to perfect it. Pathetic approach. We miss you Steve

caycep• 14 years ago

I wonder....contrast the relatively polished release of OS X mountain lion (yes, it had a few hiccups, but overall, pretty smooth) under Federighi (and potentially with Serlet lineage) with iOS 6, with its ambitious but flawed features, skeuomorphic design, etc.

What is going on in the mind of Scott Forstall?

HNaTTY• 14 years ago

Sounds like Tim Cook thinks that good maps are a chicken-and-egg problem. You can't correct bad maps without users reporting inaccuracies, and you can't get people to use inaccurate maps. So you force it on them, and then start fixing everything that gets reported. Crowdsourcing.

riffic• 14 years ago

Zero mention of mass transit directions.

markshepard2• 14 years ago

Is it really true that there are 100 million devices using ios6 already?

mcantelon• 14 years ago

>we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the ground up.

Or pay Google.

dustingetz• 14 years ago

i wonder if this came from a top-down directive "ship on schedule or don't bother." something like Marissa Mayer said this week[1]. GLHF.

[1] http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Mar...

fierarul• 14 years ago

A product that gets better as people use it is basically a beta.

Apple isn't known for releasing beta products so I think it's not a wonder they are noticing the consumers backlash.

I won't be upgrading to iOS6 until I have Google Maps.

MartinCron• 14 years ago

A product that gets better as people use it is basically a beta.

A product that doesn't get better as people use it is dead.

jballanc• 14 years ago

I think what they say about "Internet time" and the length of people's memories might be correct. This is, in fact, very in keeping with Apple's character. Apple doesn't often screw up, but when they do, they will definitely own up to it. (Keeping in mind that your buddy Joe or some high-priced analyst claiming that Apple screwed up is not the same thing as them actually screwing up...)

See, for example, four years ago when they issued an apology and a free account extension for the launch of MobileMe: http://www.macworld.com/article/1134530/mobileme.html

4as198sGxV• 14 years ago

Buy TomTom (people seem to like their app for iOS). Swap the current data for the one used by TomTom in their app. Problem solved.

checoivan• 14 years ago

I think it was a good thing. No, the maps aren't perfect, but neither were gmaps( though way more polished). I can remember a the times where gmaps sent me to some random location. 3D generation is HARD, compare it with the google earth or maps and apple's shows more resolution,less artifacts. 3D was always a cool side feature despite the glitches in other programs and maybe the bad idea was integrating this into the main experience of one of the most used apps. They added some awesome features but in the end people just want maps that work, and eye candy doesn't trump that. They could have taken the typical route trying to brainwash customers with ads or PR releases, the CEO talking about the best product ever w/o believing, instead I admire that they took the rout of "We did a great effort, you didn't like it, sorry and we'll make a bigger effort until you do".

In the end all the effort ,features, and niceties doesn't matter if people simply doesn't like it.

acdha• 14 years ago

Around here (Washington DC) Apple's maps aren't much different that Google's as far as address matching - in several queries, considerably better even - but there's a huge gap in all of the ancillary data.

I live near a park with a city rec center, pool, sports fields, etc. and a public high school. A little testing showed the following:

Google Maps: correctly labels all of the above, including building outlines

OpenStreetMaps: correctly labels everything but the school, but they do have building outlines and even parking lots marked.

Bing: nothing but the school name labeled at the nearest intersection rather than correctly in the middle of the [long] block.

Apple, Nokia, Map Quest: featureless void

mycodebreaks• 14 years ago

Let me refer to IE here. IE gets shipped with Windows. Many(actually, too many) users don't like using it and install & use Chrome, Firefox etc.

Let's hope that Apple plays fair game and lets Google, Bing and other Maps applications compete with Apple Maps. If Apple Maps app can't become/remain the most popular app in the category for any number of reasons, Apple Maps will get reduced to a product which is forced on to users.

tonycoco• 14 years ago

Anyone else think Apple Maps just isn't that bad. I used it for a trip from Chicago to Wisconsin and it worked out perfectly. I guess I'm just not that interested in people with problems with Apple Maps in China or small German towns. Here in the midwest US it seems to work just fine and find everything that GMaps used to. I actually like the Yelp! review integration as well.

Oh well!

I suppose I'm the only one to know that this software is driven by a service which, in time, will most definitely improve exponentially with use.

hazov• 14 years ago

I live in São Paulo, one of the greatest cities in the world and here the maps are shit. In London where I was Friday it's also shit. Both are not your average small German town. For driving directions it's basically TomTom. You're not interested but I am, and not everyone live in a car.

EGreg2• 14 years ago

I think we can see it all over iOS 6: Google probably screwed Apple by not renewing their YouTube and Maps contracts. It's painful for Apple to break free of Google. But if it successfully does this, it will become a true competitor to Google on several fronts. The question is, can their brand survive the backlash? My guess is YES. Their coffers are huge. They will hire and catch up in these areas -- and afterwards probably start to innovate. Most of all, they have some of the greatest designers and branding people there. Google is mostly about engineers. But right now I think it was Google who stuck it to Apple, not the other way around.

brodytodd• 14 years ago

I am disappointed a bit at Mr.Cook's recommendations. I think that some of the major problems with Apple Maps exists outside the United States. I am in Canada, and there was a problem from the get go with maps (well documented, I won't go into it).

None of the solutions recommended in this letter are good solutions. Loading a webpage adds how many different steps to getting an address, Bing and Mapquest are not available in the Canadian store, and Waze looks like a cheap gimmick to me(first impressions, it may be a good product).

I don't want to jump on the 'look at Apple falling' bandwagon, but this is a major blow to their reputation. I can appreciate the letter, but don't offer recommendations in your apology that don't work, that makes you look actually incompetent.

zacwitte• 14 years ago

Yeah the apple maps were disappointing but the apology letter yields to the masses. It doesn't show leadership. Always look forward.

esschul• 14 years ago

Probably is really nice to be on the apple-map-team team right now. They get pushed in delivering something, then probably gets a nice "you suck and you should feel bad for making us look bad"-reception from everyone. I don't know about you guys, but I for one think someone ought to give these guys a pat on the back and a pitcher of beer with a note saying "this too shall pass".

zerohm3• 14 years ago

Adding "Steve Jobs would have never..." to my list of meaningless cliches alongside "perception is reality" and "it is what it is".

mey• 14 years ago

Does anyone else find irony that Tim Cook shares a last name with James Cook?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=cooks+map

hhimanshu• 14 years ago

I miss Steve, this would never had happened if he was there

keypusher• 14 years ago

Create a custom icon that goes to the Google Maps homepage? That's really they suggested solution? Wow...

shreeshga• 14 years ago

i wonder how so they test maps? I mean, there cant be test cases for every major co-ordinates. Probably Apple fucked up in their maps testing.

samstokes• 14 years ago

or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their websites

"Please take a look at our competitors, and learn to associate their brands with the subpar web versions of their mapping software."

arihant• 14 years ago

I actually prefer the way the new Maps look, specially when I am walking. As a photographer I do end up in the wild often and the new Maps is just better and more fluid to browse the surroundings, specially in satellite.

If only it had the data..or a way to pull in Foursquare locations.

wanghq• 14 years ago

Seriously, that's not the only apology apple should make.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12506897/is-safari-on-ios...

y4m4• 14 years ago

Apple time to make some friends :-)

brandoncapecci• 14 years ago

Slipping in download statistics in an apology - oh Apple - you are selling even when you are apologizing.

kalleboo2• 14 years ago

Apple should have released these maps as a free beta in the App store 6 months before iOS 6 was released. People would have gotten their laughs off the bad data out, but Apple could brush them off as "it's just a beta", and they'd have 6 months to fix the most egregious issues, and third parties can get local transit apps ready. Then when iOS 6 replaces the Maps app, even if it's not up the level of Google Maps, it's no longer news, and there's no huge backlash.

EGreg2• 14 years ago

What can I say, the problems under Jobs weren't as obvious. He was able to spin it.

Apple's maps application is just provably worse in terms of maps. Period. There is not much to spin there. It was obvious.

Apple shipped an iPhone without YouTube and without Maps. The whole set of decisions, including the form-factor, seems very un-Jobs-like.

However, owning up to the problem is something I applaud Cook for doing. Not only that, but look at what he suggests -- adding web apps to the desktop. Because he knows that once they fix the Maps app (by getting a better database), it will be superior to web apps!

Notice what Tim Cook did not say: download the alternative APPLICATIONS. Are there any?

inthe90s• 14 years ago

What's so funny about all of this is that the functionaliity at issue is so basic. It's 1990's. Remember getting door to door directions from Mapquest and print them out?

Now add text-to-speech.

Now add lots and lots of hype, branding, smaller form factor, etc., etc.

This is door-to-door directions and text-to-speech. Perhaps greatly improved since the 90's, but certainly not new or cutting edge.

This is the type of stuff Apple, the world's wealthiest company, cannot get right. Because it's not their focus. They do not focus on something as simple as directions. That is just raw facts, nothing creative. No magic. Apple focusses on other things. Design. But if I just want to go from A to B and need directions, fast, I really don't give a shit about design. Apple cultists might. I don't.

Well, if you are an Apple cutltist, you won't be getting simple accurate directions the way the guy using Google, or Mapquest, or ..., is able to get them.

teeja• 14 years ago

Jobs knew one thing: Quality is job one. If it wasn't quality, it wasn't included. Maybe this helps them remember that.

fafner• 14 years ago

The Apple Map street data is based on OSM. I haven't used Apple Maps so far. But is Apple using an old dataset or is OSM simply bad in some regions? I've heard that there were some problems like Apple rendering some forest roads as normal streets and so on.

Because in my experience the OSM data is quite good and even better than the Google Maps data. But then again I life in a populated area with probably a large number of OSM contributors.

And is Apple giving anything back to OSM? E.g. data or money?

dschiptsov• 14 years ago

Without Jobs Apple is mere Microsoft..)

dizzystar• 14 years ago

I don't own an iPhone and never used one, but reading the comments is surprising. I didn't realize how bad the Google Maps app was for iPhone, ie. no turn-by-turn, large ads, et.al. I'm rather shocked that people are complaining so much about this one app in the entire iOS ecosystem and if their lives depended so much on maps that they now refuse to upgrade to iOS6 over it, what were they paying $300+ awful reception (in Los Angeles) per phone for the past several iterations for when you can get an Android w/ turn-by-turn for $50?

Why the current maps is what they are is left to conjecture, but I wonder that if there was a push-back about no turn-by-turn and lower quality maps for the past, idk, 2 years, if Apple would have released their new version of maps.

I never got the impression that Apple listened to or cared too much about what their customers wanted, nor do I think they have the required data abilities to deal with creating a good mapping algorithm. It is quite possible, that with zero to little feedback about no turn-by-turn, that iOS meant far more to the customer than maps. As a passive observer, I am wonder why maps alone is creating so much push-back. Isn't there something special about iOS that moves people to spend their hard-earned money on each next device, often with no convincing improvements, sight-unseen?

A Letter from Tim Cook on Maps

Related Stories