“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2018-July/005664.html

by randlet • 8 years ago

2024 677 8 years ago

mail.python.org

kamyarg2• 8 years ago

It is sad but needs to happen with every BDFL, I really like the tone of the email and I am sure the python core devs would figure out something. :)

Finally, Guido if you are reading this, thanks for everything you have done for the language and especially the community behind it. I partly owe loving what I do to you. Hope taking this break would help you be happier.

shams93• 8 years ago

Yes thank you Guido! I started working with python back in 1999 working with zope, now we live in a much easier world where you have many options to deploy python applications, my boss wound up rejecting my project but working with python was just as amazing in 99 as it is today its just so much easier you can see all the work and more importantly love that has been put into the language since its inception. Thanks again Guido for all your amazing work!

emodendroket2• 8 years ago

I have really horrible memories of trying to keep a Plone site in prod from my sysadmin days.

rectangletangle• 8 years ago

I'm also really sad to see him go. I sincerely hope Guido enjoys his well earned time off. I'm extremely grateful for the amazing community he has fostered around his excellent language.

Though as an avid Python user (~10 years), this does fill me with concern. Not only for Guido's health, but for the health of the language. Guido leaves awfully big shoes to fill, and I'm hoping the community is up for the challenge.

password4321• 8 years ago

Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.

PEP 572: Python assignment expressions has been accepted

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17448439

ehsankia• 8 years ago

Is the final syntax := surrounded by parenthesis?

hermitdev3• 8 years ago

Yes

skywhopper3• 8 years ago

Yeesh, that’s a sad thing to burn out over. Python made this decision to avoid assignment expressions a long time ago and has done fine without this capability. Why not just leave well enough alone? Adding a new variation to assignment syntax (just because of the opinion that = vs == is too confusing (even though C and Ruby and many other languages deal with it fine)) is just going to add more confusion to the language. For a line saved here and there?

cben• 8 years ago

I had the same gut reaction when I heard the PEP even exists. But now I actually read the PEP, it's very well written and makes a reasonably good case that in specific scenarios it will be an improvement.

(My second gut reaction was it should have used `as NAME` postfix syntax. The PEP debunks that too. Turns out it previously proposed that and the switch to := was a major improvement :-)

The bigger question is whether the gains justify making the language larger... That's subjective, impossible to settle by debate, and the kind of thing a BDFL can help decide one way or the other :-)

AdmiralAsshat• 8 years ago

What was the issue that was evidently so contentious that it made him wish to step down?

pwinnski• 8 years ago

Being on the internet in 2018.

amorousf00p2• 8 years ago

God yes.

sametmax10• 8 years ago

The python idea mailing list scaled very poorly for getting proposals into python.

It's a harsh confusing place and the absence of tooling and structure doesn't help.

gizmo385• 8 years ago

Assignment expressions in Python, it seems.

tom_• 8 years ago

The first sentence of the email mentions PEP 572, and the third paragraph mentions his age (van Rossum is 62).

Analemma_2• 8 years ago

(a := b) rather than a = b

Naturally people went to the barricades for it, in a classic example of bikeshedding and Wadler's Law (programmers will fight to the death over trivial syntax disagreements and just shrug at profound changes to semantics and architecture)

Herald_MJ2• 8 years ago

That's not an accurate summary of assignment expressions.

Assignment expressions perform the assignment and also return the value of the assignment. So you can assign and test a conditional at the same time. It's quite an elegant alternative to some quite verbose repetitive code you would otherwise have to write in some scenarios.

settler4• 8 years ago

(a := b)

Will `with` start using this syntax instead of `b as a`: `with open('foo') as a:` == `with a := open('foo'):`?

Update: found my answer on the pep. `with EXPR as VAR` actually calls `EXPR.__enter__()` so it's not the same.

fwdpropaganda• 8 years ago

Damn dude...

I'm sick and tired of writing stuff like

m = f( <...> )

if m:

    # do stuff with m

Trivial as it may be, I for one welcome this.

Sohcahtoa82• 8 years ago

(a := b) rather than a = b

That's not it at all. The PEP even acknowledges that while `(a := b)` would be valid, it would not be recommended.

bla2• 8 years ago

I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.

Leading a large open source project must be terrible in this age of constant outrage :-(

sjm-lbm2• 8 years ago

It's PHP and not Python, but every time I read something like this from a major open source figure, I always think of this old PHP mailing list thread:

https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=50696

Y_Y• 8 years ago

That's a good read. I feel like the "customer is always right" mentality does quite a bit of harm to OSS support.

Also reminds me of that dev (who I can't seem to search up) who had their email printed as part of a open-source software license in a car manual and would get ridiculous email from people who had car trouble.

coryfklein• 8 years ago

OMG there are some real gems in that thread.

Escalate? Oh how I wish I had someone to escalate to. - rasmus@php.net
After carefully reviewing this bug report with our board of directors on 4chan, we have come to the conclusion that your "rusty C skills" should be enough to fix the issue. I would therefore like to remind you that rasmus@php.net is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasmus_lerdorf

raverbashing5• 8 years ago

"This is going to cause us MONTHS or fixing code for no real benefit since this behavior change is arbitrary and seemingly, was made for no reason"

Yeah, tough. Fix your code

That's the attitude some maintainers need in cutting unreasonable requests.

vxNsr• 8 years ago

O_o I wonder how many times I've spoken to someone and didn't realize who it was/how important they were because of the anonymity of the internet.

ErikAugust• 8 years ago

I'm sure 'endosquid.com' is currently being by hammered by people wanting to find out who was so rude and unreasonable.

swyx5• 8 years ago

found prior HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4145179

Sir_Cmpwn• 8 years ago

Archive:

http://archive.is/XYXoi

munificent• 8 years ago

I have yet to encounter any user so hostile in my open source projects, thankfully. But when the time arises, the line I have prepared is:

    I'm really sorry you ran into this issue. To make things better,
    I've given you a full refund.

symmitchry• 8 years ago

I'm a little confused though, by his feelings here. Why did he feel the need to "fight so hard for a PEP" if it was so controversial, and everyone was outraged?

I do understand people's points about "the age of outrage" and "internet 2018" but still: the PEP wasn't generally accepted as being a fantastic improvement, so why did he feel the need to fight so hard for it?

jnwatson• 8 years ago

It was controversial syntax, inline assignment-as-expression. There's always a tension between "keep it simple stupid" and "let's make it better", especially when a large user demographic of Python are non-professional-programmers.

Interestingly, C++ is going through the same process, with lots of great ideas being proposed, but the sum total of them being an even more complicated language (on top of what is probably the most complicated language already).

Python has been successful, IMHO, because Guido has made several brave, controversial calls. Python 3 breakage and async turned out to be prescient, fantastic decisions.

staticassertion• 8 years ago

Every feature ends up being controversial. Every discussion ends up devolving, somewhere, with some group, into bikeshedding.

Ultimately, it's up to certain stakeholders to hear arguments and make calls.

sametmax10• 8 years ago

That's the very point of a bdfl : it assumes he knows better than others. Debating is for insight and cortesy, not mandatory.

simonh• 8 years ago

If 'everyone' was outraged, it wouldn't have been controversial, right? I'd argue that one person against _everyone_ else isn't a controversy, but in any case at the end of the day the PEP was accepted in a democratic poll.

brettcannon3• 8 years ago

He fought for it because he thought it was the right call. The role of a BDFL is to make those kinds of calls for the benefit of the language and community. It's really tough to fight the "tyranny of the majority" and go with what you think is right versus what everyone is screaming and yelling at you about.

technologia3• 8 years ago

On a related note, we've always had the constant outrage, its the internet that allowed it to become more apparent.

nemild• 8 years ago

In 2018, we can finally use our advances in data science and social network design to precisely target outrage and make it maximally engaging.

tw04• 8 years ago

It's not the outrage, it's the entitlement. People have always been outraged, the major difference I've seen is the rampant sense of entitlement. I'm not sure if it's a result of bad parenting or something else, but it's slowly becoming a major issue for the entirety of the human race.

wild_preference• 8 years ago

I noticed this over the years on a forum I’ve run for over 10 years. Since ads are pretty much dead for small publishers like me, the forum costs me money. But I run it out of charity.

Nothing sucks the energy out of me more than lurking in my forum and seeing users complain about how little I’ve done for the forum. I don’t want to know how many weekend I’ve spent building features for the forum or arbitrating problems between users.

The thing is that these posts of entitlement are a relatively knew phenomenon on my forum mostly in crescendo over the last four years.

I’m pretty sensitive to it now and it’s easy to spot eveywhere. From people whining that free shit isn’t perfect on HN to gamers complaining that a modder charges for the mod instead of doing it for fun.

rohan1024• 8 years ago

Completely agree with you. Heck I realized I have the same entitlement issue after running into 2-3 people who were on higher spectrum of entitlement. I was having issue with their behavior but realized I do the same sometimes. I am trying to balance it out. The sad thing is people are not even aware that they have this issue.

I think social media is responsible for breeding this sense of entitlement among people.

bsg753• 8 years ago

this age of constant outrage

And entitlement.

fit2rule2• 8 years ago

What I think would fix this, is better developer metrics and statistics. If every post to the python-dev list was automatically tagged with some sort of metric for that persons contributions to the project, it would go a long way to identifying, and triaging, the most violent vitriol.

Something like code contributions, amount of churn, speed of implementation, level of correctness, etc. Trouble is, I don't really see any quick "just insert batteries" method of adding such metrics to an open-source programming community - perhaps someone knows of a great system of reports for measuring developer productivity through a repo or something? I guess it would also have to accommodate dev-ops and marketing efforts by developers, too. Hmm .. maybe this is a startup idea in the making ..

robertk2• 8 years ago

Outrageous. I’m offended, because I see open source as a great force for change, and I find your remarks belittling.

robertk2• 8 years ago

Denizens... please. I was clearly facetious.

Too deadpan.

jagger27• 8 years ago

BDFL? PEP?

bitmadness• 8 years ago

Wow, this is the end of an era! Guido has had an extraordinary impact on the direction of Python and software engineering more generally, and I thank him for his contributions.

Tenoke4• 8 years ago

I got to say, HN has become much looser with the titles since dang took over. It could be for the better (or not), but I definitely see at least 5 top posts a week with an editorialized title now, compared to a lot less before.

Edit: Everyone is saying it is fine. Again I'm not saying it is not, but if it is, can you please update this part of the guidelines:

Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait. Don't editorialize.

apendleton• 8 years ago

It's a direct quote from the email. Do you think it was taken out of context in a way that communicates editorial intent? Seems pretty directly connected to the contents of the message to me.

code_duck3• 8 years ago

It’s journalistic, but is not misleading. “[python-committers] Transfer of power - Guido van Rossum” would be more verbatim, but I think the title is okay.

Tenoke4• 8 years ago

Quote from the text used to be the most common type of editorializing to be reverted/disallowed before... And at any rate, I said it could be for the better - I've just been noticing this more and more.

grzm2• 8 years ago

When you see them, let the mods know via the Contact link in the footer. They don't see everything and update the ones they know about.

Tenoke4• 8 years ago

It's very often the mods who editorialize (often you can see some reasoning in the comments), so it is definitely not an issue of them not knowing, rather a change of policy.

justin663• 8 years ago

I expect that has little or nothing to do with dang and a lot more to do with the increased population of HN users.

JustSomeNobody2• 8 years ago

It makes a LOT more sense than "Transfer of Power" does.

sctb• 8 years ago

Moderators updated the title from the submitted “Transfer of Power (Guido Stepping Down as Python BDFL)” to this representative quotation from the article. The guidelines ask for the original title unless it's misleading or clickbait, and the original title in this case is borderline by being vague. This isn't a change in policy, but this is a case that probably could go either way.

deckarep3• 8 years ago

Sorry Guido but it’s BDFL — for LIFE! Just kidding and Thanks Guido for all you’ve done for the Python community.

misthop2• 8 years ago

That is a really interesting point. Without some process formalizing his (desired it appears) removal as BDFL he could override any future construct that is built to guide python. The thought of a schism in the direction of python is worrying.

Edited to remove inadvertent backhanded compliment

deckarep3• 8 years ago

His email made it pretty clear he doesn’t care how things move forward as it’s now up to the community to decide.

hiccuphippo• 8 years ago

But he is still the BDFL, he's just on permanent vacation.

deckarep3• 8 years ago

Have you tried reaching software engineers on vacation? “Sorry I’ll be camping on some rock on Mars where I’ll have spotty internet access so....”

raverbashing5• 8 years ago

Also it's 'BD'

Maybe he should have pushed harder on his Royal Prerogative to move things forwards

whalesalad• 8 years ago

Yikes. Python has become so hugely popular and is used for so many different use cases that I fear the ecosystem is going to really struggle to find consistency and direction without a dictator.

LyndsySimon3• 8 years ago

Maybe we'll try something like a triumvirate? As best I can tell there are basically three areas where Python is dominant: web, data science, and academia. A single leader for each of those spheres could form a council where BDFL-level decisions could be made by fiat.

Each community could then form whatever organization they felt necessary to choose who to send to the triumvirate.

As as check on the power of the triumvirate, we could have something like a "Tribune of the Plebs" - a representative elected by open election from the entire community that holds veto authority over changes approved by the triumvirate.

3rdAccount• 8 years ago

This sounds familiar:)

swyx5• 8 years ago

you're missing a body that can decide in case of implementation disputes over the other two. we could even compare it to a court. since python is so huge, we would have several levels for triaging and appeals. and the top one would reign supreme.

cbhl• 8 years ago

Guido is only human. And one day, he will die. (Hopefully a long, long time from now.)

Guido is not asking Python to live without a dictator. Guido is asking Python to learn how to live without Guido, so that Python may outlive him.

This is a tale as old as time. Apple lives on with only memories of Steve Jobs. The United States lives on with only memories George Washington.

For some inspiration I'd recommend listening to the track "One Last Time" from the Hamilton musical:

"One Last Time" - Hamilton At The White House #ObamaLegacy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV4UpCq2azs

Original Broadway Cast Recording on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEqnXNsAFL8

Original Broadway Cast Recording on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/track/0Iys022UwQ8xBfxE1g4nWZ

SwellJoe3• 8 years ago

"Apple lives on with only memories of Steve Jobs."

I think that remains to be seen.

swyx5• 8 years ago

He's going to sit under his own vine and fig tree :)

azhenley• 8 years ago

Can someone paraphrase why PEP 572 was disliked by so many people?

js22• 8 years ago

https://lwn.net/Articles/757713/

kevinwang• 8 years ago

Thanks, that was a good summary

JustSomeNobody2• 8 years ago

Because developers.

olavk• 8 years ago

Se discussion previously on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17448439

js22• 8 years ago

Background ("PEP 572 and decision-making in Python"):

https://lwn.net/Articles/757713/

jcelerier4• 8 years ago

The problem with the C-style of assignments is that it leads to this classic error: if(x = 0) {...}

yeah, if you code on 20 years old compilers with no warnings. GCC 4.1 warns about this (with -Wall) and Clang 3.4 warns about this too, without any warning flag.

Waterluvian2• 8 years ago

I think that having strong opinions on how others should be developing software is how communities become toxic like this.

"Shooting yourself in the foot is your fault for not using a linter that detects accidental misuse of assignment!"

jstimpfle3• 8 years ago

Not having a problem in the first place is preferable to fighting it with tools. == vs = is a classic mistake that I'm sure every C programmer has wasted some time on. (I'm just undecided if I prefer dealing with this very problem occasionally, or choosing either of the verbosity of := assignments or the non-orthogonality of = assignment statements plus := assignment expressions.)

iainmerrick• 8 years ago

What do you do if you really do intend the assignment?

(Assume for the sake of argument it’s some more reasonable example like "if (x = re_match(foo, bar)) {...}")

raverbashing5• 8 years ago

Warnings in Python are very rare, and only for good reasons

Throwing warnings for "common code" would be uncharacteristic.

bluecalm4• 8 years ago

Well, when he is dealing with arguments as silly as "but we will confuse = with ==) it's not a surprise he is tired and had enough. I just wish he had pushed through C style assignment before retiring. New syntax is ugly and introduces a new operator which basically does the same thing. When I've seen this PEP for the first time I thought he lost his touch after so many fantastic design decisions throughout the years. Now I realize he just had enough.

Thanks Guido for fantastic language. I wouldn't find love for programming if it wasn't for you.

Tehnix• 8 years ago

Well, when he is dealing with arguments as silly as "but we will confuse = with ==)...

You clearly never had exposure to a PHP codebase. If people can trip up, people will trip up.

joshuamorton5• 8 years ago

Guido (along with most core devs) are actively against c-style assignment. This pep was a compromise that Guido felt was good.

But c-style assignment in Python was never going to happen, not should it have.

sevensor2• 8 years ago

My reaction was the opposite -- I didn't know about PEP572, read it immediately after this retirement announcement. My response was, "where has this feature been all these years?" I'm delighted by the addition -- it removes a lot of "loop and a half" ugliness without adding do loops, it simplifies list comprehensions, it lets you remove opportunities to make mistakes, and it doesn't let you put a single-equals assignment inside a conditional as a typo.

adamnemecek4• 8 years ago

Even though I write python only if it’s going to be like 200 loc tops, it’s insane how gracefully the language has aged. It came out in 91, thus predating for example Java. Fun fact, I believe the very first google scraper was written in it.

At the same time I can’t wait for the next language to replace it.

anothergoogler2• 8 years ago

Python hasn't changed much, but the world around it has. For better or worse, when jobs in the language were few and far between, it was a friendlier and less competitive community.

sametmax10• 8 years ago

People often don't realize this. We hear a lot that python is moving too fast or too slow. To say that disregard the delicate balance the language had to dance on for 20 years. It's crazy.

adamnemecek4• 8 years ago

Agree but it’s closer to 30.

petters• 8 years ago

Wasn't the first Google scraper written in Java? I saw an old Usenet post by Page from about 1997 asking about user agents in Java.

Perhaps that was the second scraper.

adamnemecek4• 8 years ago

Perhaps that was the second scraper.

I believe that is the case yes. However correct me if m wrong.

vram222• 8 years ago

Fun fact, I believe the very first google scraper was written in it.

Fun "fact": I need to check my facts, but it could be that the very first Google was written it it, too :)

Checked:

https://www.google.co.in/search?q=what+language+was+google+s...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Search

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Google

kgwgk2• 8 years ago

That’s what he said :-) (first google scraper = scraper used in original google implementation)

loa-in-backup2• 8 years ago

For what it's worth, the variant of syntax Guido pushed is a really good choice and the fact that the mailing list "widely opposed" it only tells of the participants.

This is just my personal opinion.

anothergoogler2• 8 years ago

Am I mistaken for not considering this PEP (and all PEPs in general) as strongly backed by Guido? I always assumed they were sort of design-by-committee and that he approved of some more than others. Offline, in private, I've been pretty critical of the change, but to me it was just another PEP.

everdev• 8 years ago

Open source burnout is real. I'm sure the allure of giving back by creating something useful fades when people constantly criticize your work, especially when you look at the personal and professional sacrifices you're making to produce free software.

zbyte643• 8 years ago

One of the pycon keynotes (by Brett Cannon) was on civility in open source:

https://youtu.be/tzFWz5fiVKU?t=2785

If you're a little abrasive (as I am) then I recommend giving it a watch. There's nothing wrong with being right but you don't want to jeopardize the respect and community by not recognizing others in a response.

Sharlin2• 8 years ago

And even if there were no other reasons for adopting codes of conduct, that would be reason enough.

coldtea• 8 years ago

He did a good work -- got it where it is now.

But he also had some specific stickups with some features -- like closures for example.

tialaramex3• 8 years ago

Guido's question gets to the heart of the problem:

"So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A dictatorship? A federation?"

No. None of the above. These are mechanisms which make choices when a choice must be made, even if none of the options is broadly acceptable. An appropriate mechanism for, say, governing a country.

Python isn't a country, it's just a programming language, so when there aren't any popular options _doing nothing_ is always the backstop. Does that mean that maybe, eventually, your programming language will shrivel away and become irrelevant? Yeah, it does. But again, not a country, just a programming language, use a different one.

Rough consensus is what you need here. PEP 572 never had rough consensus. Could it have obtained such consensus, someday, perhaps, with more work? Maybe, though I doubt it. But it didn't have that when the PEP was rammed through by the Benevolent Dictator.

icebraining6• 8 years ago

Who decides when there's rough consensus or broad acceptance for a change? You have a bunch of people with commit access to the python repository; of course you need some mechanism to decide what goes in.

Rough consensus is what you need here.

Why?

tialaramex3• 8 years ago

A rough consensus is trivially observable. Look around. Who's left saying that plan Foo is a bad idea? Just that one guy who is a total crank and thinks Python shouldn't support 64-bit processors? Nobody cares about him. How about people who think plan Foo is a good idea? Basically everybody who talked about it other than the crank: OK, that's rough consensus.

If you have situations where your "bunch of people with commit access" aren't sure if there's consensus then you don't have a consensus.

As to why you need it: Because unlike countries people have a real choice. All your language users are volunteers. (No "Seasteading" and "Freemen on the land" are not real choices). Not only can they freely choose another language instead of Python, they can fork Python and go make their own instead, or maintain the current code frozen in perpetuity.

Now, if there really is a 50:50 split between people who must have feature X and people who'll leave if feature X is added to Python, nothing you can do will solve that. So it's wrong to try to design your structures for that problem. More often there is a third way, and consensus helps you to be sure you found the third way.

robbrit2• 8 years ago

Consensus approaches are terrible ways to design languages. It's why Java took so long to evolve, where C# rapidly adapted to changing needs; and why C++ lingered in a long state of crappiness until Stroustroup came back and is now pushing improvements every three years.

Languages generally do well when there is a sense of leadership and vision for where it is going. Consensus is terrible at providing both.

krylon2• 8 years ago

I haven't used Python in many years, but it was the first programming language I really could say I loved. Everything was was either completely in tune with my intuition or well-documented.

I had a lot of fun with Python, and I learned a lot about programming by (ab)using it. I am very grateful to Guido van Rossum and the work he has done, and I wish him all the best for his future.

jessaustin• 8 years ago

I totally agree with this. In 1999 I had only used C and shell (well lisp a little bit in college), and python was such a breath of fresh air...

Keyframe3• 8 years ago

Even though I am hardwired to C and 'thinking like a machine would/prefers', python was probably the first and only language I didn't feel like it was a programming language at all. Always when I write something in it, it's always 'huh, and that's it? I'm... done?'. Sure, it's equal part due to language and 'batteries', but neither would happen without GvR and awesome community that built around his project and him. Python, to me, is like lisp without parens and with libraries - the future we were promised. Only thing I, personally, can't do is write large(er/ish) codebases with it. I tend to get lost, but that's probably due to my C-like brain. In any case, thanks for everything!

213• 8 years ago

As someone who used Python for more than a decade, a few months ago when I saw PEP 572 and that Guido liked it I knew that it would be by far the most controversial one ever.

And I was very concerned that there was no outside community involvement. This is one where there should have been a lot of publicity around, and the community should have been asked (on r/python, r/programming, HN, ...)

It's sad to see this, but it's not surprising to me. In general the Python community at large accepted Guido's decisions, but this one was too much of a shock, and when the python-dev discussions where so heated, you can only imagine the response from outside.

cowpig• 8 years ago

I honestly don't understand why it's so contentious, despite reading the lwn.net article about it[1]. It just looks like some syntactic sugar to me, and I've been in the position where not having that sugar has felt awkward many times writing python.

[1] https://lwn.net/Articles/757713/

aerovistae• 8 years ago

Thanks Guido, for building my favorite language.

VikingCoder8• 8 years ago

I've begged GitHub to institute forms of government for repos.

For X action to happen, Y percent of the pool of people in the Z list need to approve it.

Membership of the Z list is granted when W percent of the T pool approve it.

Modifying the rules of government of this repo can only happen when L percent of the R pool approve it.

And on and on...

I could imagine a city or state government actually having its laws encoded in Github, and Github itself enforces the governmental system of checks and balances. Congress. Senate. President. Veto. Overriding a Veto. Laws of succession. Elections. On and on.

_wmd2• 8 years ago

Technology cannot solve social problems

zbyte643• 8 years ago

Try solving social problems without technology.

jpfed3• 8 years ago

Wasn't it nice that you could reply to this comment over the web rather than physically going to the commenter and telling them what you thought? Boy, this technology sure gave a helpful assist to the social problem of communication.

VikingCoder8• 8 years ago

The decisions that are made by the social group can be recorded with technology. The actions the group is capable of taking can be handed over to the technology. Thus, the ability to take those actions can be mechanically resolved.

Have your debate in email, but then VOTE in a way that can be automated.

smsm423• 8 years ago

Why Github? It's like begging your electrical company to institute rules for how multi-tenant building is governed. Github is just a (admittedly major) infrastructure provider, they are not and should not be in business of enforcing governance in open-source communities, which have very diverse governance models and it's great.

VikingCoder8• 8 years ago

Because I don't want an individual (or small group of individuals) to have authoritarian power (BDFL) over a repo.

It's the governance of the repo that I want encoded. I make a pull request, and it's decided upon by the government system.

That needs to be encoded into Github.

And yes, "the very diverse governance models" is a challenge. One I think needs to be taken up, eventually.

I don't want one jerk to have the ability to ruin a repo. I don't want to have to fork a repo when the one owner dies. When I disagree with the owner of a repo, I'd like a process to resolve it.

mulmen• 8 years ago

Why is representative democracy the best system for managing a repo? Will there also be an option for pure democracy?

Can I fork your socialist utopia and form an authoritarian dictatorship?

I don’t see why this system would ever be beneficial to a real world government. We already have checks and balances, if GitHub did it all who decides how GitHub works? What’s the benefit?

JohnBooty2• 8 years ago

    > Why is representative democracy the best system for managing a repo?

The most obvious reason (to me) is that it's sort of preposterous to think that all votes are equal. I've never even used Python. Should my vote be worth the same as Guido's when it comes to some technical decision? This is a problem in representative democracies as well, of course, but you've a little more protection.

There's also the issue of practicality. Voting on issues is a time and resource intensive process. It's just impractical to have everybody vote directly on every single decision.

    > Can I fork your socialist utopia and form an authoritarian dictatorship?

Well, of course!

    > I don’t see why this system would ever be beneficial to a real world government.

I can't think of a less viable equivalency than attempting to equate a system government to an open source project's management model.

- Nations have many orders of magnitude more resources than... Python

- Practically speaking the vast majority of people can belong to only a single nation, whereas most developers probably used a handful of languages in the last 24h

- Nobody asked to be born into a country, and most people on Earth can't simply choose a new one

- The decisions made by nations are literally life and death for millions of people

The relevant factors for determining the course of Python's governance model bear far more resemblance to your neighborhood restaurant's menu decisions than the ways in which governments are elected.

VikingCoder8• 8 years ago

It's one popular way, that's all. There are plenty of others that could make sense.

A game could grant you the ability to edit its source code, after you complete the game. That's just a for-instance.

Will there also be an option for pure democracy?

Sure, why not?

Can I fork your socialist utopia and form an authoritarian dictatorship?

Mechanically, sure. There may be licensing problems, but that's true today.

I don’t see why this system would ever be beneficial to a real world government.

If the real world government stores its web pages in GitHub, then the real world government can use this governance to handle changes to that web page.

Rather than letting a lone IT admin have root.

What’s the benefit?

If you're comfortable with needing to fork a repo when the BDFL goes rogue and starts making changes you hate, then there's no benefit at all.

lozenge• 8 years ago

You can implement it already with the GitHub API. If you do, please run it on itself.

sametmax10• 8 years ago

As a personnal note, you could feel that guido was already in this mood for a while from the tone of the last year tickets and mails.

It's amazing he managed to not explode at somebody. I know i would have if our roles had been reversed in some exchanges we had.

Good writers, comedians or directors know when to quit at the top their carreer.

I think he is quitting before the situation was too taxing and that is wise and courageous. Espacially since it's been more than 2 decades of service.

Plus he is leaving his baby.

That's an amazing move.

Havoc• 8 years ago

It's amazing he managed to not explode at somebody.

Like a certain other BDFL occasionally does?

IgorPartola• 8 years ago

Don’t know why you are being downvoted. Linus’s tirades and diatribes are famous for how brutally personal they get. I still maintain that they are a waste of time and he would be a more effective leader if he limited his responses to “this is a bad idea” or “this isn’t done right” instead of writing pages long personal attacks on other members of the project.

reirob• 8 years ago

Maybe this is the reason that the certain other BDFL is still in service? Maybe it's part of psycho-hygiene in order to be able to continue? I sincerely don't know - your question just triggered my experience when working in psychiatry and seeing how the staff was venting, talking and joking about patients - once the doors were closed. I was very shocked, was quite young, around 20 when serving - but one of the doctors, when she saw my shock, took me apart and explained that this behaviour, so shocking it might be when seeing it for the first time, is part of psycho-hygiene that allows the people to be able to continue to work and keep a certain distance.

Sure, it's not the same, but I am questioning myself, if for these roles, like the BDFLs we are talking about, it is not necessary to have a personal way that allows to handle all the pressure, still keeping being yourself, defending your vision of your life-work.

gmiller123456• 8 years ago

Good writers, comedians or directors know when to quit at the top their carreer.

Actually, no. I know this is getting away from the main point of the discussion a bit. But Adam Savage gave a good explanation as to why most paid people quit at the height of their career [1]. The idea is that once people pass their prime, the work they produce is worth less. So the only way such careers could continue would be for producers to overpay for a product, or for the actors to continue working just as hard for less money.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGeS6m3hVk8

theandrewbailey2• 8 years ago

Python was my first programming language, ~15 years ago. The bracket- and semicolon-free syntax is beautiful and approachable to this day. Python is my go-to for writing data format conversion scripts. I wrote a random sentence generator in Python 10 years ago that gave me and my friends hours of entertainment.

Thanks, Guido, for the good times!

fit2rule2• 8 years ago

I can never get into Python and end up with as much passion as you. For me, its a very powerful and useful language - no doubt about it.

But the aesthetics of a whitespace language just don't jive with my 30+ years of experience writing code. No matter how many times I try over the past few decades, I just can't get passionate about writing Python code. I know its power, and I totally grok its value to our industry - but for me, Lua is just far more elegant, even if it doesn't ship with all of Pythons' goosebridles. Lua is my go-to scripting language; I only ever use Python if I have to - i.e. its enforced on me by others.

I really do try to get over this personal handicap, often enough, but the moment I have to start thinking about indentation I just lose all the passion and it starts feeling like a drag. What a dilemma, because I know it has been used for many, many great things .. I just wish I could get over my aversion to white-space'ing things all the time. I've tried editor after editor (well, expect the Python-specific things), but it just doesn't click.

Ah well.

patejam2• 8 years ago

The indentation should be almost the same as any other language. Unless you have an aversion to consistent code-style.

Python whitespace was only annoying for me years ago when it still had trouble handling tabs and spaces in the same file, and you would run into literally invisible bugs. I haven't run into that in a long time, though.

lisper• 8 years ago

Python has open-braces in the form of colons. If you use emacs, you can use the PASS statement as a close-brace and everything will auto-indent properly. Python purists have conniptions when they see this programming style, but I've used it for nearly 20 years and it works for me.

cutler6• 8 years ago

I found Python's indentation style more appealing after working with Clojure for a while. Python is a bit like lisp without the parentheses. In fact you can Clojurify Python with Hy (http://hylang.org) which solves both the indentation problem and the crippled lambdas problem.

perfunctory• 8 years ago

I used to have a similar aversion to significant whitespace having learned in compiler classes that space should be insignificant. Over time I learned to appreciate the significant indentation though and now I want a C frontend with similar syntax.

enriquto2• 8 years ago

but for me, Lua is just far more elegant,

It's curious... Lua is my favorite language due to its elegance, but I would love it even more if it used significant indentation (using tabs, of course) instead of "end" blocks.

codezero• 8 years ago

This is way off topic, but I’ve never seen the word goosebridle - googling it comes up with a phrase a wigwam for a goose’s bridle - and there its usage is meant as a rejoinder meaning “none of your business” - I’m curious how it ended up as a word to mean - I’m guessing - flashy features (jeez now I am sure there is a more common word for that) - is this a local thing, or is the etymology on the web wrong, what I’m saying is I’m curious how your usage of the word came about :)

sametmax10• 8 years ago

It's going to be very interesting to see if things like:

- pattern matching

- inline exception catching

- path inclusion in the built in

- more functional tooling

- lazy keywors

That were BDFL-blocked, will go back to be debated in the mailing list in the next months.

And if yes, will the community stands by its root or create a new era ?

The consequences of which we will only really see in 10 years.

Guido as done an incredible job at being the boogie man, keeping the language simple and readable. It's a hard job.

Can we pull it off ?

bluecalm4• 8 years ago

I think he made a right call blocking all of those. There are Pythonic ways to do all of those already and the mantra there should be one and preferably one way of doing things is important for the philosophy of the language.

With PEP 572 it wasn't like that. There wasn't a Pythonic way to do list comprehensions which used the same expensive to evaluate expression two times in it and it was I think the only glaring syntax weakness in comparison to languages which have a way to do that (like WHERE keyword in Haskell).

rthomas6• 8 years ago

What's the Pythonic way of pattern matching?

sametmax10• 8 years ago

Since there is no metrics for that, your entire post, much like a lot of any part of the language design process, is very opinionated.

It's why it's hard.

jondot• 8 years ago

Whats the pythonic way to do dependencies? pip? pipenv? virtualenv? pyproject? And how about Python 2 and 3?

</Sarcasm>

But seriously, I think there's no one way to do things anymore especially if it holds up productivity and effectiveness. Let the pattern matching begin.

abecedarius• 8 years ago

You can in fact factor out expressions in list comprehensions, like:

    [foo(y, y) for x in xs for y in [f(x)]]

Is this Pythonic? Perhaps not, but mainly because multiline list comprehensions are frowned on in general. I think people tend to get too dogmatic about that.

gaius3• 8 years ago

Multi-line lambdas, I hope!

cutler6• 8 years ago

Please can we have real lambdas? I'd then be tempted to prioritise Python over Ruby.

stormbeta• 8 years ago

The big one I want to see, because it's one of my biggest frustrations with Python, is to finally make lambdas work like every other contemporary language instead of being inexplicably limited to a single expression simply because Guido couldn't come up with a syntax that agreed with him.

There's so many cases (arguably including the problem this PEP was designed to solve!) where having a real inline closure is just far more readable than having to arbitrarily break every single thing that happens to need 2+ expressions out into named blocks out of sequence.

Other things in Python are either simply a result of the language's age and history, or have real technical pros and cons, but that one irks me because it's an artificial limitation chosen for no reason except aesthetics.

mijamo• 8 years ago

Nononono

God please NO!

I would KILL not to make that happen. So many devs abuse those in every language that has that. Even lambas get sometimes abused in Python (and I have a few examples in our codebase unfortunately). Expanding lambdas' scope is the LAST thing I want in Python, this would just lead to worst codebases, with nearly 0 benefit.

If you want to do something that needs 2 expressions, just create a goddamn function and name it for god's sake.

Sorry but I had to say it, I think the lambda limitations is one of my favorite feature in Python.

zimablue• 8 years ago

I read a long time ago and was convinced that no nice lambdas was one of the biggest problems in python, but that poster argued convincingly that it's an unavoidable consequence of the meaningful whitespace. Are you proposing a special syntax for multiple statements on one line for this?

tschellenbach• 8 years ago

Thank you for your hard work Guido. Python is one of the nicest programming languages to work with and will continue to thrive in the years to come.

rurban2• 8 years ago

Now this is a very dangerous situation, looking how perl5 was handled after Larry wall left them and stepped over to perl6.

Constant infighting of the core devs, useless communication on the mailing list, not a single worthwhile feature being implemented in 15 years, even if perl6 and Larry designed tons of them suitable for perl5, total destruction of the syntax and the core. The better counterexample was perl6 with stricter processes and some capable devs remaining, but still it's another minefield.

Good luck, tons of work to do. python 3 could get 10x faster and catch up to php7 or javascript, types could get properly integrated but I don't see it coming. Usually you have to expect the worst.

SwellJoe3• 8 years ago

I think had it been a more clear demarcation, like this, Perl 5 would be in much better shape today. Perl 5 has been doing well for a few years now, but it took a while for the Perl 5 developer community to fill the void left by Larry; there just wasn't an acknowledgment that there was a void to fill. Larry didn't die, still kinda paid attention to Perl 5 for a while, but his heart wasn't in it and his attention eventually shifted fully to Perl 6.

Now, the Perl Pumpking (a sort of Benevolent Punching Bag for the Next Release; they do have the ability to decide which patches go in, but usually don't wield it like a dictator) along with the dev community, does their thing...the pumpkin gets passed along every year or three, and things continue. And, Perl 5 is developing nicely in a way that it didn't for about a decade while there was so much uncertainty. The Pumpking existed before Larry left Perl 5, but acted more in a support role (as I understand it), so it seems like it took a while for it to become an acknowledged executive position when Larry faded from view in Perl 5 development.

I think Guido is doing the best thing for Python. If his heart isn't in it, stepping back in a clear way is much more helpful that drifting away and leaving a void of leadership with no one feeling empowered to step up. There are people who are recognized as being contenders for the throne, and there's already a long-standing community process. I think Python will be fine.

zbyte643• 8 years ago

Can tell you performance has never been an issue for me and python. Usually when I see the claim come up it is usually a poor test (ie "let's see how fast we can read from a database") or not knowing the performance options available to python. You can use pypy for JIT compilation performance. You can use eventlet to add co-operative threading / evented processing. Use multiprocessing if you want to use more than one core. The point of python is to optimize for human understanding 1st, and if your abstractions are good then you can enable extra performance with other libraries.

rurban2• 8 years ago

Regarding the endless mailinglist thread problem on this PEP, I can only recommend to use a different PEP tool.

A wiki leads to more structured argumentation, can be re-ordered and edited and doesn't get out of control. Sometimes I also use github issues, because I can update the issues there. But on big issues a wiki page is better.

Such a mailinglist discussion is mostly drama without much content.

Pica_soO• 8 years ago

They will form a Anarcho-Syndicalist Commune. BDFL power can not be derived from some aquatic farce.

leothekim• 8 years ago

Python is certainly one of the more opinionated languages in the OSS world, so there was always going to be contention on syntax and what it means to be Pythonic etc. Kinda amazing Guido put up with it for this long.

Thank you, Guido, for putting the B in BDFL when you could.

thinkingemote• 8 years ago

What does BDFL stand for?

primitivesuave• 8 years ago

Benevolent Dictator For Life.

dinosaurs• 8 years ago

Benevolent Dictator for Life

loa-in-backup2• 8 years ago

Benevolent Dictator For Life

theandrewbailey2• 8 years ago

A list (but Guido is the original): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life

amorousf00p2• 8 years ago

God, I can empathize even if only at a much less prominent vantage. The skills, will and effort involved are at a level far more than a 50+ can reasonably sustain into the early 70s (if that is the prospect).

klez• 8 years ago

Actually he's 62 (I know, I was surprised too!)

mattio• 8 years ago

Enjoy your well deserved holiday! Send us a postcard ;-)

abisxir• 8 years ago

We started to program with python around 2009, and continued until now and it is my firat choice for almost everything.

Thanks Guido for all the fun that we made with python and eased the life of bankers :/

AdamN• 8 years ago

Gentle reminder that Python 2 only has 17 months left...

smithmayowa• 8 years ago

It is Great to see the speed at which wikipedia has updated this occurrence. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_van_Rossum

parham• 8 years ago

Thank you for all your efforts and hard work.

It has changed a lot of lives and will continue to do so for a long time.

Enjoy the vacation and take care of yourself.

Buetol• 8 years ago

Looks like the Python project is gonna migrate to be democratic, so the decisions can’t be blamed on one guy. That’s interresting how this happens in more and more projects !

erikb• 8 years ago

I believe a big part of Python's success is owed to Guido. However I don't think this is a good move. It's not very likely, but not impossible that this will even kill Python.

Doesn't he have any people he trusts in the inner circle of Python development? Would've been much better to have power slowly and uncommented slip into their hands. A process that could have been started years ago.

Feels a little like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/IYYmtqL

gigatexal• 8 years ago

Thank you Guido for creating and shepherding such an amazing language one that has been my go to language for years for its ecosystem and it’s beauty. Seriously thank you so much.

lifeisstillgood• 8 years ago

To Guido, a career's worth of thanks (I doubt I would have had one without Python) and for being encouraging and supportive to a very young dev at a long ago conference - to keep that up over decades means encouragement, mentoring and optimism was bred in your bones. Have a lovely permanent vacation.

To the python community, I hope we can find a successful, democratic way forward.

To myself, public service is a good thing - try harder !

agentultra• 8 years ago

Thanks Guido. Python was my primary language from around 2004 - 2017. I've had the chance to present at Pycon a couple of times and get my feet wet in contributing to open source projects with Python. Best of luck.

at-fates-hands• 8 years ago

When I first started getting into programming (was not a CS major in college) everybody said to start learning Python first.

I started digging in and a lot of concepts were easy to grasp and I learned quite a bit until I started doing front-end work and I stopped working with it.

This year, my buddy who got me into it originally, suggested I look at django and I've been having fun with that in the past few months. Made me think about picking Python back up and working with it again as the front-end scene is just so crazy right now.

dfsegoat• 8 years ago

We run django with django-rest-framework in production to provide our frontend app with the JSON api it needs -- it has some gotchas and isn't perfect, but is a treat to work with when you want to split time between front and back work.

hermitdev3• 8 years ago

I learned Python ~14 years ago. I already had decent C, C++ & C# knowledge, plus a handful of assembly languages. I already knew how to program, but was taken aback by how approachable Python was. I can't remember if I started on 2.2 or 2.4, but I basically learned 99% of what I needed to know in the first few days. In the last 14 years, I've written a significant amount of Python, mostly for work (finance/trading). It's no exaggeration to say that my Python apps had billions, even trillions of dollars worth of orders/transactions/contracts flowing through them, and Python was rock solid for me every time.

It's still my scripting language of choice. I'm still more likely to rewrite a Perl script in Python than I am to try and make any significant change to the Perl script. I like the "batteries included" approach, and that the Python devs prefer to add new features via libraries than new obtuse syntax. I think most of the recent syntax changes were well deserved and wouldn't otherwise have been well served by a library (thinks like async, context managers, and going back further generators and the if/else ternary expression).

Also, I'm almost exclusively on Python 3 now. The only real issue I've had is constantly needing to remember how to properly open a CSV file for reading (I really don't know how they let that wart live for so long).

Animats• 8 years ago

If only he'd done that before that weird unchecked advisory typing thing.

czardoz• 8 years ago

A well deserved vacation! Thank you for the amazing stewardship over decades, Guido.

jVinc• 8 years ago

All this over a god damn bikeshed that no one will care one way or the other about 6 months after its implemented. He didn't loose faith after the 2->3 transitioner but but a goddamn assignment operator that works just like so many other languages.

I mean it was bound to happen at some point, but I am really disheartened that it happened in this way.

Dowwie• 8 years ago

what you're seeing is the straw that broke the camel's back

kolpa2• 8 years ago

Python's original "sales pitch" was that it was a clean and simple language. As years go by and more weird stuff is piled in, it becomes less Pythonic.

antt• 8 years ago

I forget which book this was from, but when I was learning python back in 2003 a major selling point was 'you can't make assignments in control structures'. Happy days to a physics undergrad who had seen more if(a=3) in C code than he could shake a stick at.

Sometimes less is more. Python is turning into more is less. It doesn't need to be everything to everyone.

jay754• 8 years ago

Thank you Guido for everything you have done.

leibnitz27• 8 years ago

He's finally going to admit that the whole python thing was a terrible, terrible joke, it got completely out of hand, and he can't believe people fell for it.

antpls6• 8 years ago

If Guido wasn't himself while writing the PEP572, I ask for a new vote about the PEP572. I vote against it, the PEP572 should not be implemented.

To me, it seems a restricted variant on the specific cases "if" and "while" would be good enough, without generalizing to more cases.

The exemples of assignment with "all()" and "any()" make me sad. Python had only one way of doing things, now it has two.

Reading Python code will be more complicated now than it was 10 years ago for newcomers

Edit : I'm sick of all the downvotes on HN. Everytime we post an opinion against the consensus, it ruins the karma, even if the comment is honest. And of course, I can't downvote people, since people keep downvoting me, I never reach the threshold to vote against any comment. The system is unfair to newcomers.

protomyth2• 8 years ago

If Guido wasn't himself while writing the PEP572, I ask for a new vote about the PEP572. I vote against it, the PEP572 should not be implemented.

There is really nothing in the e-mail that indicates that.

I can only imagine the message it would send to recall the PEP. I guess it would confirm his decision in a most callous way.

antpls6• 8 years ago

Some people on Internet are reconsidering a second vote for the Brexit, while that PEP didn't even have a vote at all, given it was a dictatorship so far.

Guido wrote the principles of Python, the principles should outlive his reign. :-)

daxorid• 8 years ago

Everytime we post an opinion against the consensus

Downvoting was, long ago, supposed to be used to indicate trolling, incivility, not substantive, etc. Sometime recently, dang and sctb have ruled that downvoting for disagreement is now perfectly acceptable.

In any event, I agree it's become a terrible method of hivemind enforcement. Have an upvote.

antpls6• 8 years ago

That is what I thought too. I read HN since so many years. Perfect example of a rating system turning into a bad censorship.

detaro• 8 years ago

Sometime recently, dang and sctb have ruled that downvoting for disagreement is now perfectly acceptable.

You are wrong about that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171

pnathan• 8 years ago

Good for him! I hope he has a long vacation and enjoyment without the responsibility.

As he says, the bus is around the corner, and the reaper comes for us all - so governance is a key component of an institution.

jacquesm6• 8 years ago

Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot.

Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all.

Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule.

Not the nicest moment in the history of FOSS, I wonder what kind of a mess will ensue when Linus steps down.

cbsmith• 8 years ago

I wouldn't assume that all the conversation you are seeing is all the conversation.

outworlder• 8 years ago

there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all.

True, although sometimes there isn't much to be done. He mentions he is tired of fighting and, with such an enormous project, how do you solve that?

This does not bode well for the future of Python, though. The ecosystem is fragmented as it is, I can only imagine how things will look like without the well known leader.

lolsal• 8 years ago

Sincere question: How is the python ecosystem 'fragmented'?

hermitdev3• 8 years ago

What fragmentation do you see beyond v2 vs v3? I stopped subscribing to the mail list because most of what was coming in was just noise...

edw519• 8 years ago

...there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong...

This is perfectly consistent with 99% of the management behavior I've witnessed for years in the enterprise. We understand that we live in a world of cause and effect, but almost everyone is so busy poking at the effect that there's no energy left to discover and treat the cause.

It's a shame that so many of us workers continue to have so much passion for the work at hand and so little for everything else. It seems like it almost always comes down to this.

Respect, Guido.

IMTDb2• 8 years ago

This is because often the "cause" is actually jut time ticking :

- What was fun 3 years ago isn't anymore

- That feature that was useful to your customers is no longer serving purposes

- It was about new feature, and now it's about maintaining compatibility

- ...

There is no real cause to "treat", you just need to adapt to the new environment you are facing.

amenod• 8 years ago

I got the impression that this was mostly just a public announcement of something that has been talked about in private for quite some time, and was not in the least unexpected to the core devs. If this is the case then the reaction is suiting imho - after all, these people know each other very well and even if they didn't talk about it openly, they probably weren't surprised to receive the mail. Besides - it would have happened sooner or later. As he said himself, that bus is still lurking around the corner... [0]

I do hope he knows how his contribution changed the world for better for so many people. I have played around with many languages in my career but Python is the most productive and fun of them all. Thank you GvR, and may you have fun whatever you do!

[0] https://legacy.python.org/search/hypermail/python-1994q2/104...

tptacek4• 8 years ago

What are they supposed to do? Python is bigger than GvR. A pretty big chunk of the tech industry depends on it. We were probably long past the point where a "BDFL" was healthy --- not because of any moral issue, but because over the long term the market is going to dictate where Python goes and how it grows, and people should stop kidding themselves that it might be otherwise.

I don't think it's at all unseemly that people involved in the Python project respond to GvR's LOA announcement by working out continuity. As someone who has to interact with a lot of Python code professionally, that's exactly the response I'd hope for.

jacquesm6• 8 years ago

Some root cause analysis would be nice. Because whatever went wrong that caused GvR to step down isn't solved and the future structure whatever form it will take will most likely not be quite as resilient against this as GvR was.

Also, an apology for the way this turned out would be seemly.

logicallee2• 8 years ago

because over the long term the market is going to dictate where Python goes and how it grow

The market didn't give the world any language nearly as readable and approachable for non-programmers.

xg153• 8 years ago

but because over the long term the market is going to dictate where Python goes and how it grows

The market gave us the absolute mess that is HTML/CSS/Javascript today, so I'm sincerely hoping the Python community will keep agreeing on some greater design principles instead of leaving everything to market forces and pragmatism.

oliwarner• 8 years ago

I don't read it like that at all.

There's certainly a friendly nod to the CoC and an invitation for people not willing to adhere to it to leave —and I think that alone would help chill things out— but it's a sustained level of often-thankless hard work. Especially if you have a day job where they're pushing for more and more performance.

This missive is about helping the project move on, not himself. Bollocking the people who have made things hard isn't a productive next step. It's not what's required now; the core devs need to work out how decisions are made.

This is that prompt.

joshuamorton5• 8 years ago

I don't think a public thread is the right time or place for such a retrospective. Keep in mind Guido's parting words ("Finally. A reminder that the archives of this list are public").

And I'm not sure who would be the right person or people to apologise. A number expressed regret at what happened, but I don't really think the core devs are at fault here.

klagermkii• 8 years ago

On the subject of Linus, I wonder if he feels the same way about kernel discussions or if he is less at risk of this kind of burnout?

Does being more empathetic when dealing with contributors and their suggestions extract a greater price on one's emotional state, compared to the more brash approach Linus has?

buserror• 8 years ago

You nail it, I think. Being nice to contributors leads to bullying. Contributors assume, then feel entitled, and it gets harder and harder to say 'no' -- and it's probably very taxing.

Linus shoots first, that keeps the bullying down -- of course everyone else thinks he is the bully, however he's just protecting himself. I've spent many years victim of bullying, and I know that the only way to beat a bully is to out-bully him.

emodendroket2• 8 years ago

Not the nicest moment in the history of FOSS, I wonder what kind of a mess will ensue when Linus steps down.

It's kind of funny to see someone worrying about sparing Linus Torvalds' feelings.

toomuchtodo• 8 years ago

The concern was for project continuity. Linus would be fine.

mjw1007• 8 years ago

I'm not sure anyone "pushed Guido out", but if anyone did I'm pretty sure it wasn't the people on python-committers.

morpheuskafka• 8 years ago

I wonder what kind of a mess will ensue when Linus steps down.

Maybe an environment that is more respectful and professional?

justin663• 8 years ago

Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all.

The lack of introspection that causes one to, in the heat of the moment, behave like a tedious buffoon on a public mailing list is probably associated with the lack of introspection that causes one to not reflect on having behaved like a tedious buffoon on a public mailing list.

On the other hand, I had never looked at the Python mailing lists until today and my main impression was that a real dictator on a mailing list without a Code of Conduct could have stopped some of that endless chatter in its tracks if he'd really wanted to. Absolutely no one springs to mind...

brettcannon3• 8 years ago

We are acutely aware of why Guido is retiring sooner than any of us expected; it has actually been discussed already on the mailing list as to what went wrong with the PEP 572 discussion and how we could potentially fix it. So there's no lack of understanding of why this is occurring now and we have already begun to think about how to address the issue.

Many of us have also been thinking about what we would do when this day arrived for years (Guido has hinted at retiring previously), so there's a lot of pent-up thought to get out there while we all start to think about what comes next to a project some of us have dedicated decades to. The conversation has been thoughtful and not a single person has said "I should be the next BDFL". All names put forward by anyone for any position has been by another.

IOW the insinuation that any of us who are trying to grapple with this are trying to vie for power while ignoring why this occurred does not seem like a fair assessment to me. This kind of unnecessary negativity and accusation is why Guido is retiring early.

cjhanks• 8 years ago

When you take the joy of programming from somebody, you cannot expect them to stick around. At some point, we all have enough.

Excited to see what Guido wants to do next, enjoy it!

BtdTom• 8 years ago

Thank you for your creativity, support, and stewardship Guido. You left a permanent mark on the programming community!

wruza• 8 years ago

All these discussions on minor but convenient changes remind me the (famous?) quote: “When art critics get together they talk about content, style, trend and meaning, but that when painters get together they talk about where can you get the best turpentine.”

It’s sad to see how critics get in the way of an artist who just needs low-level things to be fckng done in a safe-enough way.

realcr• 8 years ago

Guido, thanks for all your work on Python. It made a huge impact on my life. I have been writing python for the last 12 years and enjoyed every moment. For many years Python was the best way for me to translate my ideas into a working program, and it made a major effect on the way I think. I wish you great luck on all your future endeavors!

robotkdick• 8 years ago

For anyone else wondering what BDFL means: Benevolent Dictator For Life (BDFL) is a title given to a small number of open-source software development leaders, typically project founders who retain the final say in disputes or arguments within the community. The phrase originated in 1995 with reference to Guido van Rossum, creator of the Python programming language.[1][2] Shortly after van Rossum joined the Corporation for National Research Initiatives, the term appeared in a follow-up mail by Ken Manheimer to a meeting trying to create a semi-formal group that would oversee Python development and workshops; this initial use included the additional joke of naming van Rossum the "First Interim BDFL".[1] Source: Wikipedia

It's interesting that GvR seems to have been the first official BDFL

exolymph• 8 years ago

Especially since Linus is the BDFL most recognized as such.

diN0bot• 8 years ago

Not the benevolent part

(regarding his style of communication)

Communitivity• 8 years ago

This is sad to see, but necessary at some point, as others have said. We should all thank him for his contributions, and for the advances in data science experiments enabled by Python's ease of use, good design, and advanced features.

I am glad that Python is recognized as the quality language it is.

Perhaps it's synchronicity that in other news this week Elon Musk triple hearted Python, https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016002749446516737.

slics• 8 years ago

It takes someone dedicated to do what you have done for this long. You need the vacation more than anyone else. I wish you had a tip bucket somewhere and I’ll gladly donate for some of your vacation cost, simply a thank you tip for your tireless effort.

err4nt• 8 years ago

Wow, thank you so much Guido for the many years of leadership. I'm sure the community will make you proud in the years to come!

amag• 8 years ago

Python is the language I chose to teach my 7 yr old daughter. Much thanks to the uncluttered syntax which requires a minimum number of explanations of non-essential parts of a program.

Thanks Guido for giving us Python!

xchaotic• 8 years ago

Damn Putin and his KGB/FSB - Crimea, brexit and now this - trying to undermine my fave programming language...

MrXOR2• 8 years ago

GREAT dictator! Thanks for Python

MrXOR2• 8 years ago

(I'll spare you the list of medical issues.)

It is bad news, is Guido fine?

nopacience2• 8 years ago

Guido van Rossum, "the creator of python", created the following page to show he has aged over the years:

https://gvanrossum.github.io/pics.html

I prefer perl, but thanks for python!

Diversity is good always :)

nopacience2• 8 years ago

As a big influencer, Guido, "the creator of python", even inspired austin powers character

Guido (1995) https://gvanrossum.github.io/images/Guido@200dpi.jpg

Austin Powers (1997) https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BYWY1ZTdlZTEtYWRjOS00...

nas5• 8 years ago

Guido's glasses are much cooler, IMHO.

webmaven4• 8 years ago

The real comparison should be with Rick Moranis: https://consequenceofsound.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/rick-...

TheMagicHorsey• 8 years ago

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot.

The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught these human beings their manners?

I totally understand the frustration when you write a large system in Python and then the Python committee makes a breaking change that makes your life very difficult. However, you didn't pay for Python! These sorts of changes should be expected, and if you didn't expect it, you are the fool. And in any case, you aren't paying these people a cent, so speak politely to them. You are basically a charity case from their perspective.

newen• 8 years ago

In the majority of cases, they are getting paid to code it (by some company, organization, etc). And they benefit from the popularity of the the software. So I don't think I need to see myself as a charity case or adopt a please please please attitude with them.

domoritz• 8 years ago

Where do you get "in the majority of cases" from? https://twitter.com/NumFOCUS/status/1017418416725155840.

about_help• 8 years ago

Agreed. No need to be a dick, but bug reports are often pretty cut and dry and often some frustration does leak into the tone. Any big project, whether code or some local government thing, will have some level of assholes.

habosa• 8 years ago

I maintain a number of open source projects for Google. So yes I am paid to do it and yes the company benefits from it. That said, it doesn't mean that developers who use it can take an entitled stance and expect to get anywhere.

I get so many bug reports like "This sux and you have to fix it!!!!" and even when I wake up on the right side of the bed, there's nothing I can do with those.

A calm discussion of what the developer is trying to achieve, what they expect to happen, what actually happens, and how I can reproduce will get a quick response from me 100% of the time.

pertymcpert• 8 years ago

You are a charity case.

kk__• 8 years ago

You are paying for python. You pay for any software product you use by not using an alternative.

OSS maintainers deserve respect but at a certain point they have turned their hobby in to their career, complete with clients and marketing. If you are willing to trust an open source project for your livelihood than the maintainer also has an obligation to respect that.

n_o_u• 8 years ago

Sorry, what exactly are you paying them?

noonespecial• 8 years ago

You missed the part of "paying" where there is any benefit at all (or incentive) in the maintainer doing that work for you.

Worse, it's open source. You are always free to do it your damn self if it's so important to your livelihood.

Rule 1: Nobody owes you jack.

gregmac• 8 years ago

You pay for any software product you use by not using an alternative.

Sure, but in the same sense "you pay" for eating a day-old egg salad sandwich you found sitting on a park bench. (Luckily, even using badly-written open source software generally has a less unpleasant outcome.)

Like open source, the chef -- who you have no relationship, connection or contract with -- is not under any obligation to guarantee either your satisfaction or survival.

If you want to reduce the risk to your livelihood, you should pay money for both your critical open source software and your egg salad sandwiches.

ci5er2• 8 years ago

In a previous life I threw some tarballs w/ a buildable OpenGL clone and separately a buildable Renderman "clone" onto an FTP server and published the location.

Some people downloaded it, built it and used it. Even added to it, where they liked.

Most people were like you.

I never share code any more.

chrstphrhrt• 8 years ago

Not just you. It's a thing.

Even more extreme, consider that companies that do charge money drop the ball constantly on security/privacy, and basic quality. And yet they continue growing, maybe having a bit of churn.

I think there's something about generosity that just attracts entitled bullies/leeches because they see it as an opportunity to "win" against people who are "foolish" (aka "weak") enough to work for free. Sadly sometimes the generous are duped into considering such requests out of curiosity or politeness, which leads to burnout or worse.

rodorgas• 8 years ago

It's the same behaviour of ordinary users, in general. A developer who uses your library is, basically, a user. They see your work as an obligation, not as a gift you are giving to everyone.

Groxx• 8 years ago

I was going to say the same thing. Free users are famously bad users in general, and open source stuff is often free too.

HumanDrivenDev• 8 years ago

I think it's deeper than just 'programmers today'. It's an important life lesson for people pre-disposed towards niceness to learn. Most people aren't thoughtful or considerate or fair. They just want to maximise benefit for themselves and their family. You're pushing a free product - so to them it's 'worthless' and they can treat you like trash.

Figure it out sooner rather than later or you'll be walked over for the rest of your life.

makecheck2• 8 years ago

Yep. Sometimes I think it wouldn’t hurt at all to put up a 3-question checklist before an E-mail/contact/post/submit-bug or other link even appears, where the 3 questions basically remind the person to be civil.

acdha2• 8 years ago

This is the number one thing making me lose interest in some projects I maintain. That toxic subset of users who expect free support debugging their applications is terrible for motivation, not least because most of them won’t even apologize when the problem turns out to be something they did.

dcosson• 8 years ago

I think what you're saying is true in the case of someone just throwing up some code they wrote online without any plan of supporting or developing it further.

But once you call it an open-source project, and you have docs and a roadmap and an issues page and stuff, you're making an implicit contract with people who use it that it will do a reasonable job of solving the problem it claims to solve. The user is choosing to use it over other alternatives and investing time learning and integrating it, so it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me for them to be frustrated when they realize that due to some bug or limitation it doesn't actually solve the problem for them that it claims to.

As an analogy, if you give someone free food and it makes them sick, are they justified in getting mad at you? I think most people would say yes. IANAL but I'd imagine that if you got food poisoning from Ben & Jerry's free cone day due to negligent sanitation practices or something, you could probably sue the company just like if you had paid for it.

Or, if a member of some sort of volunteer community board is doing a bad job, people will complain about it. An open source maintainer is basically in the same position.

Of course, that's no excuse for being rude to them, but you also shouldn't be rude if you paid for something and it doesn't work. I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything to reduce hostility towards maintainers when it happens. But it's not true, in open source software or anywhere else, that just because something is free there are automatically no expectations around it.

nickthemagicman2• 8 years ago

I think theres absolutely zero implicit contract that implies that open source software maintainers owe ANYone ANYthing at ANYtime.

That's the reason it's open source because everyone can fix it, all an open source maintainer owes you is a P.R. review.

Therefore if an open source project maintainer is giving you their time and patience then you better be extra polite and grateful to them.

If Ben and Jerrys left a bunch of ice cream on the sidewalk and a bunch of people ate it and got sick then there would be zero liability on Ben and Jerrys.

Senderman• 8 years ago

You open implying that the original commenter's grievance in untrue outside of "throwing up some code," but at the end you say the opposite, and agree that it's "no excuse for being rude to them." I think you agree the original comment basically represents the truth, but you want to offer an elaboration on the complexities -- that's great, but why present your comment as a rebuttal?

I like your point about 'payment' not being a magic excuse for switching from not-rude to rude.

I don't accept the food analogy. You need food to survive, and you might need it free if you get stuck in life. You don't need free software - it's a bonus.

You mentioned the food-poisoning suing example - IA(also)NAL but if you put free software online without everybody's favourite "AS IS" block at the top, I believe you're on the hook if your software doesn't behave properly, so it looks to me like the law agrees with your notions.

Personally, I find the expectations over people offering software for free to be, broadly speaking, obnoxious - I definitely have a chip on my shoulder about it and I know that's coming out in this comment, so, apologies for the out of the blue railroading; your comment is the one that got me to articulate all the above, so, thanks.

dragandj2• 8 years ago

That depends on the license. Most open source licenses state explicitly that you use the software at your own risk, and that the author promises you nothing and owes you nothing.

ranit2• 8 years ago

So, we insist open-source software developers to keep their "implicit contract", but we (as society) allow companies to buy companies that develop and maintain open-source to close-source it or just close the entire establishment? Without legal consequences.

ballenf• 8 years ago

if you give someone free food and it makes them sick, are they justified in getting mad at you? I think most people would say yes.

It's is more like people having an allergic reaction to otherwise perfectly safe and free food and complaining that you didn't take their allergy into account. And that you should go buy them some more food but made without the offending ingredient and with the sauce on the side.

brown9-2• 8 years ago

This implicit contract idea is bunk and can’t be proved by analogies.

hodgesrm• 8 years ago

But once you call it an open-source project, and you have docs and a roadmap and an issues page and stuff, you're making an implicit contract with people who use it that it will do a reasonable job of solving the problem it claims to solve. The user is choosing to use it over other alternatives and investing time learning and integrating it, so it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me for them to be frustrated when they realize that due to some bug or limitation it doesn't actually solve the problem for them that it claims to.

Actually it does seem unreasonable to get irate at the developers when fitness for use is explicit in the license that enables use of the software in the first place. Open source licenses in general and the Python license in particular are very clear about this. The Python 3.7 license has the following term in section 4:

  4. PSF is making Python 3.7.0 available to Licensee on an "AS IS" basis.
   PSF MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.  BY WAY OF
   EXAMPLE, BUT NOT LIMITATION, PSF MAKES NO AND DISCLAIMS ANY REPRESENTATION OR
   WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR THAT THE
   USE OF PYTHON 3.7.0 WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY THIRD PARTY RIGHTS.

If you use Python 3.7.0 and it displeases you, that's just part of the deal. On the other hand you do have the right to make your own copy and fix it to serve your purposes.

Edit: fixed typo

skookumchuck• 8 years ago

A contract requires an exchange of value in order to be binding. Using free software has no exchange of value, so there is no contract, implied or otherwise.

IANAL

nostrademons• 8 years ago

Most open-source licenses explicitly say that the software is provided as-is, and there is no warranty, express or implied, nor any obligation to continue to provide support or for it even to work.

https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0

https://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

https://opensource.org/licenses/BSD-3-Clause

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html

The user is indeed choosing to use it over other alternatives; they are choosing to use it, and should make that choice on the basis of their own evaluation of the functionality and stability of the library.

Retra2• 8 years ago

But once you call it an open-source project, and you have docs and a roadmap and an issues page and stuff, you're making an implicit contract with people who use it that it will do a reasonable job of solving the problem it claims to solve.

Not at all. If I do all that, maybe I just did it for practice? Maybe I get bored or RSI and quit developing software? Nobody owes you anything, regardless of what they've offered you prior.

hmart• 8 years ago

This create a case for pay for software believing a guarantee is granted just for paying

riazrizvi• 8 years ago

I get the point. However I also really enjoy it when a fellow developer makes the time to get their point across in a friendly, compassionate tone. I see that rants tend to be the way we phrase our complaints, perhaps because most of us feel rushed and we kid ourselves we are discussing purely technical matters? I need to keep reminding myself that there is an underlying/social purpose to my work.

Gatsky• 8 years ago

It is just selection bias. People that start and maintain OSS are on average more helpful and nice than people that don’t, hence the interaction.

A similar effect exists in relationships. If you are ‘nice’ then your potential partners include both other nice people and horrible people, because generally a horrible person will not tolerate another horrible person. Hence, you see nice people in relationships with horrible people more often than one would hope.

setgree2• 8 years ago

One person who understands and writes extremely well about this dynamic is Eliezer Yudkowsky. From the incomparable Harry potter and the Methods of Rationality: [0]

""I was going to be a hero, once," said Professor Quirrell, still looking upward. "Can you believe that, Miss Granger?"

"No."

"Thank you again, Miss Granger. It is true nonetheless... I was not naive, Miss Granger, I did not expect the power-holders to align themselves with me so quickly - not without something in it for themselves. But their power, too, was threatened; and so I was shocked how they seemed content to step back, and leave to that man all burdens of responsibility. They sneered at his performance, remarking among themselves how they would do better in his place, though they did not condescend to step forward...Perhaps, by taking on himself the curse of action, that man removed it from all others?...

"So -" Hermione's voice sounded strange in the night. "You left your friends behind where they'd be safe, and tried to attack the Dark Wizard all by yourself?"

"Why, no," said Professor Quirrell. "I stopped trying to be a hero, and went off to do something else I found more pleasant.""

This might be hard to grok without reading the preceding 83 chapters but it is the first thing that came to mind when I see how people treat open source contributors.

[0] http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/84

_1100• 8 years ago

I grok. I have neither read this, nor have I read any Harry Potter (much to the chagrin of many of my friends, I'm sorry, I've tried).

This sums up a fairly universal behavior that I think we all tend to take part in, and also see others taking part in when we all spot a problem but don't take action because we have the luxury (i.e. removed from any real chance of harm) to watch the problem be solved by anybody else. Then we use this position of luxurious inaction to judge and complain.

I'm surprised by the reactions I see here though. I'm not invested in the subject of this post, but I can see the hurt of this person in their post. It also appears that they are not bailing, but simply allowing others to try and do better, with suggestions to boot.

And here we sit, justifying our luxurious anger at a person so exhausted from doing free work that they have to walk away from what I assume is a passion of theirs.

parrellel3• 8 years ago

It is worth mentioning that Eliezer Yudkowsky doesn't believe in the scientific method, and thinks it can be replaced with pure Bayesian reasoning, without, as far as I can tell, any data collection.

evantahler• 8 years ago

https://github.com/evantahler/Dont-be-a-Jerk: The open source license for reasonable free software

DennisP• 8 years ago

I like it but I think its terms are contradictory.

- "You don't have to do X but if you don't do X you're being a jerk."

- "Don't be a jerk."

If I don't do X, have I violated the license terms or not?

AlexCoventry2• 8 years ago

Maybe I'm just getting older, but it seems as though online behavior is getting more hostile generally.

jghn• 8 years ago

I lead an open source effort which is fairly large in a relatively niche field. While most users are awesome, it never ceases to amaze me how rude some people can be. Because something isn't exactly the way they want it we're the worst, dumbest people in the world. Hey I'm happy to refund the money you spend purchasing my product.

quickthrower2• 8 years ago

It could be because the assumption that because python is famous, it must have some funding/money/company behind it.

tmaly• 8 years ago

I think it will be interesting what structure of leadership will replace BDFL.

randomsearch• 8 years ago

Excluding the 2/3 debacle, Guido has overseen an incredible progression in Python. It has become a contemporary lingua franca for coding, and the concept of a “pythonic” approach has been hugely influential.

I’m disappointed that he broke Eric Raymond’s rule: “When you lose interest in a program, your last duty to it is to hand it off to a competent successor.”

The email sounds bitter, which is tremendously sad, and I hope that after a break Guido will be able to oversee a more constructive transition.

OmarIsmail• 8 years ago

My guess for lack of successor is that he doesn't want to burden someone else. It's probably one of those things like being a head of state where you don't really know what it's like until you've done it yourself. So people that want to be Python maintainer do so because they don't know what they're asking for.

uluyol• 8 years ago

I saw it more of being that he doesn't want to impose a particular style of governance after removing himself from the project. The remaining devs should run it however they see fit.

maxerickson• 8 years ago

You've come to the wrong conclusion, he handed things off to the core developers. It's not like there are 45 million people with commit privileges over there.

AlexCoventry2• 8 years ago

I wouldn't call 2->3 a debacle. It brought me along in the end, and I was a huge refusenik.

linsomniac• 8 years ago

https://youtu.be/tzFWz5fiVKU?t=49m27s

Related: Brett Cannon's Keynote at PyCon 2018 about why he had to take a break from Python core development. I was sitting with him before the talk, and it was a really, really hard talk for him to give, emotionally.

K2h• 8 years ago

So, not knowing what BDFL was, does wikpedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life now need to get updated?

vladsanchez• 8 years ago

I'm afraid this will be Python's demise. I've seen many non-Pythonic idioms that I question PEP's rationale at this point.

nehemiahjacob• 8 years ago

He should have done that before creating Python3

Windson• 8 years ago

Thank you Guido, https://www.thankyouopensource.com/letter/280/Thank-you-Guid...

BerislavLopac• 8 years ago

I'm not at all optimistic about this. I understand Guido's motives and sympathise with him, but I'm afraid this will have a very detrimental effect on Python and how its development is managed.

He says: "... I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions." I can only imagine what might happen without a single decision-maker -- just think of all the vitriol that was thrown about the migration to Python 3. At best there will be endless discussions, often being decided in favour of whoever was the loudest and most aggressive on the mailing list; at worst, we might end up with multiple competing forks of Python specification and implementations...

I'm hoping that the PSF will be able to elect a single "product owner"; I don't expect them to have the same amount of influence and respect Guido had, but it would be a good start.

elmozyz• 8 years ago

Unfortunately, electing a single product owner is now a decision the core devs will have to weigh in on - which means it wont happen. Design by committee is a terrible way to run Python

jasonkostempski• 8 years ago

"bus lurking around the corner" caused me a Family Guy style flashback.

"Like that time [victim of an unsolved bus stop stabbing] was killed by a bus." victim sitting alone at a bus stop. glint of light from the dark alley in back. bus jumps out, stabs victim. bus enters street, transforms into normal bus, drives off.

“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

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