I let ChatGPT analyze a decade of my Apple Watch data, then I called my doctor

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/i-let-chatgpt-analyze-a-decade-of-my-apple-watch-data-then-i-called-my-doctor/ar-AA1UZxip

by zdw • 6 months ago

243 231 6 months ago

msn.com

freedomben4• 6 months ago

Despite having access to my weight, blood pressure and cholesterol, ChatGPT based much of its negative assessment on an Apple Watch measurement known as VO2 max, the maximum amount of oxygen your body can consume during exercise. Apple says it collects an “estimate” of VO2 max, but the real thing requires a treadmill and a mask. Apple says its cardio fitness measures have been validated, but independent researchers have found those estimates can run low — by an average of 13 percent.

There's plenty of blame to go around for everyone, but at least for some of it (such as the above) I think the blame more rests on Apple for falsely representing the quality of their product (and TFA seems pretty clearly to be blasting OpenAI for this, not others like Apple).

What would you expect the behavior of the AI to be? Should it always assume bad data or potentially bad data? If so, that seems like it would defeat the point of having data at all as you could never draw any conclusions from it. Even disregarding statistical outliers, it's not at all clear what part of the data is "good" vs "unrealiable" especially when the company that collected that data claims that it's good data.

hmokiguess• 6 months ago

I have been sitting and waiting for the day these trackers get exposed as just another health fad that is optimized to deliver shareholder value and not serious enough for medical grade applications

NoPicklez• 6 months ago

I don't see how they are considered a health fad, they're extremely useful and accurate enough. There are plenty of studies and real world data showing Garmin VO2Max readings being accurate to 1-2 points different to a real world test.

There is this constant debate about how accurately VO2max is measured and its highly dependent on actually doing exercise to determine your VO2max using your watch. But yes if you want a lab/medically precise measure you need to do it a test that measures your actual oxygen uptake.

aeonfox• 6 months ago

I think the blame more rests on Apple for falsely representing the quality of their product

There was plenty of other concerning stuff in that article. And from a quick read it wasn't suggested or implied the VO2 max issue was the deciding factor for the original F score the author received. The article did suggest many times over the ChatGPT is really not equipped for the task of health diagnosis.

There was another problem I discovered over time: When I tried asking the same heart longevity-grade question again, suddenly my score went up to a C. I asked again and again, watching the score swing between an F and a B.

brandonb3• 6 months ago

The lack of self-consistency does seem like a sign of a deeper issue with reliability. In most fields of machine learning robustness to noise is something you need to "bake in" (often through data augmentation using knowledge of the domain) rather than get for free in training.

freedomben4• 6 months ago

There was plenty of other concerning stuff in that article.

Yeah for sure, I probably didn't make it clear enough but I do fault OpenAI for this as much as or maybe more than Apple. I didn't think that needed to be stressed since the article is already blasting them for it and I don't disagree with most of that criticism of OpenAI.

brandonb3• 6 months ago

FWIW, Apple has published validation data showing the Apple Watch's estimate is within 1.2 ml/kg/min of a lab-measured Vo2Max.

Behind the scenes, it's using a pretty cool algorithm that combines deep learning with physiological ODEs: https://www.empirical.health/blog/how-apple-watch-cardio-fit...

ignoramous• 6 months ago

The paper itself: https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Using_Apple_Watch...

Seems like Apple's 95% accuracy estimate for VO2 max holds up.

  Thirty participants wore an Apple Watch for 5-10 days to generate a VO2 max estimate. Subsequently, they underwent a maximal exercise treadmill test in accordance with the modified Åstrand protocol. The agreement between measurements from Apple Watch and indirect calorimetry was assessed using Bland-Altman analysis, mean absolute percentage error (MAPE), and mean absolute error (MAE).

  Overall, Apple Watch underestimated VO2 max, with a mean difference of 6.07 mL/kg/min (95% CI 3.77–8.38). Limits of agreement indicated variability between measurement methods (lower -6.11 mL/kg/min; upper 18.26 mL/kg/min). MAPE was calculated as 13.31% (95% CI 10.01–16.61), and MAE was 6.92 mL/kg/min (95% CI 4.89–8.94).

  These findings indicate that Apple Watch VO2 max estimates require further refinement prior to clinical implementation. However, further consideration of Apple Watch as an alternative to conventional VO2 max prediction from submaximal exercise is warranted, given its practical utility.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12080799/

itchyouch• 6 months ago

The trick with the vo2 max measurement on the apple watch though is that the person can not waste any time during their outdoor walk and needs to maintain a brisk pace.

Then there's confounders like altitude, elevation gain that can sully the numbers.

It can be pretty great, but it needs a bit of control in order to get a proper reading.

miltonlost• 6 months ago

What would you expect the behavior of the AI to be? Should it always assume bad data or potentially bad data? If so, that seems like it would defeat the point of having data at all as you could never draw any conclusions from it.

Well, I would expect the AI to provide the same response as a real doctor did from the same information. Which the article went over the doctors were able to.

I also would expect the AI to provide the same answer every time to the same data unlike what it did (from F to B over multiple attempts in the article)

OpenAI is entirely to blame here when they are putting out faulty products, (hallucinations even on accurate data are a fault of them).

jdub2• 6 months ago

Why do you have those expectations?

AndrewKemendo• 6 months ago

Should it always assume bad data or potentially bad data? If so, that seems like it would defeat the point of having data at all as you could never draw any conclusions from it.

Yes. You, and every other reasoning system, should always challenge the data and assume it’s biased at a minimum.

This is better described as “critical thinking” in its formal form.

You could also call it skepticism.

That impossibility of drawing conclusions assumes there’s a correct answer and is called the “problem of induction.” I promise you a machine is better at avoiding it than a human.

Many people freeze up or fail with too much data - put someone with no experience in front of 500 ppl to give a speech if you want to watch this live.

freedomben4• 6 months ago

I mostly agree with you, but I think it's important to consider what you're doing with the data. If we're doing rigorous science, or making life-or-death decisions on it, I would 100% agree. But if we're an AI chatbot trying to offer some insight, with a big disclaimer that "these results might be wrong, talk to your doctor" then I think that's quite overkill. The end result would be no (potential) insight at all and no chance for ever improving since we'll likely never get a to a point where we could fully trust the data. Not even the best medical labs are always perfect.

jayd16• 6 months ago

Well if it doesn't know the quality of the data and especially if it would be dangerous to guess then it should probably say it doesn't have an answer.

freedomben4• 6 months ago

I don't disagree, but that reinforces my point above I think. If AI has to assume the data is of poor quality, then there's no point in even trying to analyze it. The options are basically:

1. Trust the source of the data to be honest about it's quality

2. Distrust the source

Approach number 2 basically means we can never do any analysis on it.

Personally I'd rather have a product that might be wrong than none at all, but that's a personal preference.

dfajgljsldkjag• 6 months ago

The author is a healthy person but the computer program still gave him a failing grade of F. It is irresponsible for these companies to release broken tools that can cause so much fear in real people. They are treating serious medical advice like it is just a video game or a toy. Real users should not be the ones testing these dangerous products.

dylan604• 6 months ago

What LLM should the LLM turn to ask if what the user is asking is safe for the first LLM to answer?

nomel4• 6 months ago

It is irresponsible for these companies

I would claim that ignoring the "ChatGPT is AI and can make mistakes. Check important info." text, right under the query they type in client, is clearly more irresponsible.

I think that a disclaimer like that is the most useful and reasonable approach for AI.

"Here's a tool, and it's sometimes wrong." means the public can have access to LLMs and AI. The alternative, that you seem to be suggesting (correct me if I'm wrong), means the public can't have access to an LLM until they are near perfect, which means the public can't ever have access to an LLM, or any AI.

What do you see as a reasonable approach to letting the public access these imperfect models? Training? Popups/agreement after every question "I understand this might be BS"? What's the threshold for quality of information where it's no longer considered "broken"? Is that threshold as good as or better than humans/news orgs/doctors/etc?

zdragnar• 6 months ago

Popups/agreement after every question "I understand this might be BS"?

Considering the number of people who take LLM responses as authoritative Truth, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

ytoawwhra923• 6 months ago

Why are you assuming that the general public ought to have access to imperfect tools?

I live in a place where getting a blood test requires a referral from a doctor, who is also required to discuss the results with you.

coffeefirst2• 6 months ago

Oh I have a plan for this.

Allow it to answer general questions about health, medicine and science.

It can’t practice medicine, it can only be a talking encyclopedia that tells you how the heart works and how certain biomarkers are used. Analyzing your specific case or data is off limits.

And then when the author asks his question, it says it’s not designed to do that.

throwaway290• 6 months ago

"ChatGPT is AI and can make mistakes. Check important info."

Is the same thing that can be said about any human

"Doctor is human and can make mistakes"

Therefore it's really not sufficient to make it clear that it is wrong in different ways and worse than human.

anon70002• 6 months ago

The problem is that AI companies are selling, advertising, and shipping AI as a tool that works most of the time for what you ask it to do. That’s deeply misleading.

The product itself is telling you in plain English that it’s ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN about its answer… even when you challenge it and try to rebut it. And the text of the product itself is much more prominent than the little asterisk “oh no, it’s actually lying because the LLM can never be that certain.” That’s clearly not a responsible product.

I opened the ChatGPT app right now and there is literally nothing about double checking results. It just says “ask anything,” in no uncertain terms, with no fine print.

Here’s a recent ad from OpenAI: https://youtu.be/uZ_BMwB647A, and I quote “Using ChatGPT allowed us to really feel like we have the facts and our doctor is giving us his expertise, his experience, his gut instinct” related to a severe health question.

And another recent ad related to analyzing medical scans: “What’s wonderful about ChatGPT is that it can be that cumulative source of information, so that we can make the best choices.” (https://youtu.be/rXuKh4e6gw4)

And yet another recent ad, where lots of users are using ChatGPT to get authoritative answers to health questions. They even say you can take a picture of a meal before you eat and after you eat, and have it generate the amount of calories you ate! Just based on the difference between the pictures! How has that been tested and verified? (https://youtu.be/305lqu-fmbg)

Now, some of the ads have users talking to their doctors, which is great.

But they are clearly marketing ChatGPT as the tool to use if you want to arrive at the truth. No asterisks. No “but sometimes it’s wrong and you won’t be able to tell.” There’s nothing to misunderstand about these ads: OpenAI is telling you that ChatGPT is trustworthy.

So I reject the premise that it’s the user’s fault for not using enough caution with these tools. OpenAI is practically begging you to jump in and use it for personal, life or death type decisions, and does very little to help you understand when it may be wrong.

tomgp• 6 months ago

The issue is that whilst the warning exists and is there front and centre, the marketing around ChatGPT etc - which is absolutely deafening in volume and enthusiasm - is that they're PHD level experts and can do anything.

This marketing obscures what the software is _actually_ good at and gives users a poor mental model of what's going on under the hood. Dumping years worth of un-differentiated health data into a generic chatGPT chat window seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of the strengths of large language models.

A reasonable approach would be to try to explain what kind of tasks these models do well at and what kind of situations they behave poorly in.

elzbardico6• 6 months ago

Well, what we could expect? It is a fucking Large Language Model. You're feeding it a very long multi-variable time series, it can't make any sense of it, but it is going to generate text.

If you are lucky, maybe it was finetuned to see a long comma-delimited sequence of values as a table and then emit a series of tool calls to generate some deterministic code to calculate a set of descriptive statistics that then will be close in the latent space to some hopefully current medical literature, and it will generate some things that makes sense and it is not absurdly wrong.

It is a fucking LLM, it is not 2001's HAL.

eleveriven5• 6 months ago

And real users shouldn't be the ones discovering these edge cases through fear

brandonb3• 6 months ago

We trained a foundation model specifically for wearable data: https://www.empirical.health/blog/wearable-foundation-model-...

The basic idea was to adapt JEPA (Yann LeCun's Joint-Embedding Predictive Architecture) to multivariate time series, in order to learn a latent space of human health from purely unlabeled data. Then, we tested the model using supervised fine tuning and evaluation on on a bunch of downstream tasks, such as predicting a diagnosis of hypertension (~87% accuracy). In theory, this model could be also aligned to the latent space of an LLM--similar to how CLIP aligns a vision model to an LLM.

IMO, this shows that accuracy in consumer health will require specialized models alongside standard LLMs.

creatonez2• 6 months ago

ChatGPT Health is a completely wreckless and dangerous product, they should be sued into oblivion for even naming it "health".

orionsbelt2• 6 months ago

ChatGPT has done more for my health than any doctor. Truly.

haldujai2• 6 months ago

How so?

CqtGLRGcukpy• 6 months ago

Original article can be read at https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2026/01/26/chatgpt....

Paywall-free version at https://archive.ph/k4Rxt

maxdo• 6 months ago

Typical Western coverage: “How dare they call me unhealthy.” In reality, the doctor said it needs further investigation and that some data isn’t great. They didn’t say “unhealthy”; they said “needs more investigation.” What’s wrong with that? Is the real issue just a bruised Western ego?

smileysteve• 6 months ago

Alt; typical western coverage. Has completely ignored other journalists publishing of the plight fitness bands have caused in doctors "am I getting a cold, my watch/ring says I'm getting a cold, give me antibiotics now"

Or how vo2 max is hard to measure, or how not wearing a wearable or wearing it loose changes results, to, I gave an llm a range to rate without really giving it context of what I want the range to really represent or the methods of gathering data.

Tldr; author bought everything, read nothing, complained to an expensive professional, and now hopes that we read his article.

wawayanda• 6 months ago

A year or so ago, I fed my wife's blood work results into chatgpt and it came back with a terrifying diagnosis. Even after a lot of back and forth it stuck to its guns. We went to a specialist who performed some additional tests and explained that the condition cannot be diagnosed with just the original blood work and said that she did not have the condition. The whole thing was a borderline traumatic ordeal that I'm still pretty pissed about.

daveguy• 6 months ago

Please keep telling your story. This is the kind of shit that medical science has been dealing with for at least a century. When evaluating testing procedures false positives can have serious consequences. A test that's positive every time will catch every single true positive, but it's also worthless. These LLMs don't have a goddamn clue about it. There should be consequences for these garbage fires giving medical advice.

maerF0x0• 6 months ago

Part of the issue is taking it's output as conclusion rather than as a signal / lead.

I would never let an LLM make an amputate or not decision, but it could convince me to go talk with an expert who sees me in person and takes a holistic view.

irjustin3• 6 months ago

Isn't it two sides to the same coin?

You should be happy about it that it's not the thing specifically when the signs pointed towards it being "the thing"?

themafia3• 6 months ago

You are _absolutely_ going to die in the next 30 minutes.

When it doesn't happen will you still be happy?

SchemaLoad• 6 months ago

I asked a doctor friend why it seems common for healthcare workers to keep the results sheets to themself and just give you a good/bad summary. He told me that the average person can't properly understand the data and will freak themselves out over nothing.

smt882• 6 months ago

I'm in the US and have never experienced anyone keeping results to themselves.

In fact, I can now easily access even my doctor's appointment notes. I have my entire chart unless my doctor specifically writes private notes.

fn-mote• 6 months ago

I fed my wife's blood work results into chatgpt and it came back with a terrifying diagnosis

I don't get it... a doctor ordered the blood work, right? And surely they did not have this opinion or you would have been sent to a specialist right away. In this case, the GP who ordered the blood work was the gatekeeper. Shouldn't they have been the person to deal with this inquiry in the first place?

I would be a lot more negative about "the medical establishment" if they had been the ones who put you through the trauma. It sounds like this story is putting yourself through trauma by believing "Dr. GPT" instead of consulting a real doctor.

I will take it as a cautionary tale, and remember it next time I feed all of my test results into an LLM.

vineyardmike3• 6 months ago

You don't need a doctor to order bloodwork. I get a full panel done yearly, just to establish a baseline and trend. I try not to overanalyze it, and just keep it around for a professional in case some real issue arises in the future.

kolinko2• 6 months ago

At least in Poland, I can almost always see my results before my doctor does - I get a notification that the labwork is ready and I can view results online.

Also, the regular bloodwork is around $50-$100 (for noninsured or without a prescription), so many people just do this out of pocket once in a while and only bring to doctor if anything looks suspicious.

Finally, there is EU regulation about data that applies to medical field as well - you always have the right to view all the data that any company has stored about you. Gatekeeping is forbidden by law.

orionsbelt2• 6 months ago

"A year or so ago"

What model?

Care to share the conversation? Or try again and see how the latest model does?

themafia3• 6 months ago

it stuck to its guns

It gave you a probabilistic output. There were no guns and nothing to stick to. If you had disrupted the context with enough countervailing opinion it would have "relented" simply because the conversational probabilities changed.

nprateem3• 6 months ago

It's amazing this still needs to be said, especially here

tstrimple2• 6 months ago

I was amused but not impressed when I was able to convince Claude Code that it was useless and absolutely not a service worth paying for. It literally apologized and recommended I ask for a refund. I mean, I still get lots of value from CC. Just that it's easy to push them into whatever corner you want.

greenknight• 6 months ago

On the flip side, i had some pain in my chest... RUQ (right upper quadrant for those medical folk).

On the way to the hospital, ChatGPT was pretty confident it was a issue with my gallbladder due to me having a fatty meal for lunch (but it was delicious).

After an extended wait time to be seen, they didnt ask about anything like that, and at the end they were like anything else to add, added it in about ChatGPT / Gallbladder... discharged 5 minutes later with suspicion of Gallbladder as they couldnt do anything that night.

Over the next few weeks, got test after test after test, to try and figure out whats going on. MRI. CT. Ultrasound etc.etc. they all came back negative for the gallbladder.

ChatGPT was persistant. It said to get a HIDA scan, a more specialised scan. My GP was a bit reluctant but agreed. Got it, and was diagnosed with a hyperkinetic gallbladder. It is still unrecognised as an issue, but mostly accepted. So much so my surgeon initally said that it wasnt a thing (then after doing research about it, says it is a thing)... and a gastroentologist also said it wasnt a thing.

Had it taken out a few weeks ago, and it was chroically inflammed. Which means the removal was the correct path to go down.

It just sucks that your wife was on the other end of things.

tharkun__2• 6 months ago

This reminds me of another recent comment in some other post, about doctors not diagnosing "hard to diagnose" things.

There are probably ("good") reasons for this. But your own persistence, and today the help of AI, can potentially help you. The problem with it is the same problem as previously: "charlatans". Just that today the charlatan and the savior are both one and the same: The AI.

I do recognize that most people probably can't tell one from the other. In both cases ;)

You'll find this in my post history a few times now but essentially: I was lethargic all the time, got migraine type headaches "randomly" a lot. Having the feeling I'd need to puke. One time I had to stop driving as it just got so bad. I suddenly was no longer able to tolerate alcohol either.

I went to multiple doctors, was sent to specialists, who all told me that they could maaaaaybe do test XYX but essentially: It wasn't a thing, I was crazy.

Through a lot of online research I "figured out" (and that's an over-statement) that it was something about the gut microbiome. Something to do with histamine. I tried a bunch of things, like I suspected it might be DAO (Di-Amino-Oxidase) insufficiency. I tried a bunch of probiotics, both the "heals all your stuff" and "you need to take a single strain or it won't work" type stuff. Including "just take Actimel". Actimel gave me headaches! Turns out one of the (prominent) strains in there makes histamine. Guess what, Alcohol, especially some, has histamines and your "hangover" is also essentially histamines (made worse by the dehydration). And guess what else, some foods, especially some I love, contain or break down into histamines.

So I figured that somehow it's all about histamines and how my current gut microbiome does not deal well with excess histamines (through whichever source). None of the doctors I went to believed this to be a "thing" nor did they want to do anything about it. Then I found a pro-biotic that actually helped. If you really want to check what I am taking, check the history. I'm not a marketing machine. What I do believe is that one particular bacterium helped, because it's the one thing that wasn't in any of the other ones I took: Bacillus subtilis.

A soil based bacterium, which in the olden times, you'd have gotten from slightly not well enough cleaned cabbage or whatever vegetable du jour you were eating. Essentially: if your toddler stuffs his face with a handful of dirt, that's one thing they'd be getting and it's for the better! I'm saying this, because the rest of the formulation was essentially the same as the others I tried.

I took three pills per day, breakfast, lunch and dinner. I felt like shit for two weeks, even getting headaches again. I stuck with it. After about two weeks I started feeling better. I think that's when my gut microbiome got "turned around". I was no longer lethargic and I could eat blue cheese and lasagna three days in a row with two glasses of red wine and not get a headache any longer! Those are all foods that contain or make lots of histamine. I still take one per day and I have no more issues.

But you gotta get to this, somehow, through all of the bullshit people that try to sell you their "miracle cure" stuff. And it's just as hard as trying to suss out where the AI is bullshitting you.

There was exactly a single doctor in my life, who I would consider good in that regard. I had already figured the above one out by that time but I was doing keto and it got all of my blood markers, except for cholesterol into normal again. She literally "googled" with me about keto a few times, did a blood test to confirm that I was in ketosis and in general was just awesome about this. She was notoriously difficult to book and later than any doctor for schedules appointments, but she took her time and even that would not really ever have been enough to suss out the stuff that I figured out through research myself if you ask me. While doctors are the "half gods in white", I think there's just way too much stuff and way too little time for them. It's like: All the bugs at your place of work. Now imagine you had exactly one doctor across a multitude of companies. Of course they only figure out the "common" ones ...

rubatuga2• 6 months ago

If it was inflamed would your GGT level be high?

tonyhart7• 6 months ago

after reading your comment, my perception is mixed

terribleperson2• 6 months ago

Do you have a custom prompt/personality set? What is it?

ltbarcly32• 6 months ago

Yea, if only he had said "make sure you are always honest" first!

fouc• 6 months ago

it stuck to its guns

Everyone that encounters this needs to do a clean/fresh prompt with memory disabled to really know if the LLM is going to consistently come to the same conclusion or not.

jesterson• 6 months ago

Never ceases to surpise me why people taking word salad output so seriously.

And probably the same people laugh at ancient folks carefully listening to shamans.

bigbuppo• 6 months ago

Why not just ask WebMD?

worldsavior• 6 months ago

I think it's your problem you got stressed from a probabilistic machine answering with what you want to hear.

lugu• 6 months ago

I am sorry I have to say so, but the value of LLM is their ability to reason based on their context. Don't use them as smart wikipedia (without context). To your use case, provide them with different textbook and practice handbook and with the medical history of the person. Then ask your question in a neutral way. Then ask it to verify their claim in another session and provide references.

It is so unfortunate that a general chatbot designed to answer anything was the first use case pushed. I get it when people are pissed.

gizajob3• 6 months ago

You’re pissed about your own stupidity? In asking for deep knowledge and medical advice from a Markov chain?

eleveriven5• 6 months ago

Stories like yours are why I'm skeptical of these "health insight" products as currently shipped. Visualization, explanation, question-generation - great. Acting like an interpreter of incomplete medical data without a strong refusal mode is genuinely dangerous

filoeleven• 6 months ago

Gotta love the replies to this. At least more of the botheads are now acting like they're trying to ask helpful questions instead of just flat out saying "you're using it wrong."

josefresco• 6 months ago

I fed about 4ish years of blood tests into an AI and after some back and forth it identified a possible issue that might signal recovery. I sheepishly brought it up with my doc, who actually said it might be worth looking into. Nothing earth shattering, just another opinion.

mrguyorama• 6 months ago

The whole thing was a borderline traumatic ordeal that I'm still pretty pissed about.

Why did you do the thing people calmly explained you should not do? Why are you pissed about experiencing the obvious and known outcome?

In medicine, even a test with "Worrying" results is rarely an actual condition requiring treatment. One reason doctors are so bad at long tail conditions is that they have been trained, both by education and literal direct experience, that chasing down test results without any symptoms is a reliable way to waste money, time, and emotions.

It's a classic statistics 101 topic to look at screening tests and notice that the majority of "positive" outcomes are false positives.

ltbarcly32• 6 months ago

It's interesting because presumably you were too ashamed to tell the doctor "we pasted stuff into chatgpt and it said it means she is sick", because if you had said that he would have looked at the bloodwork and you could have avoided going to a specialist.

It's an interesting cognitive dissonance that you both trusted it enough to go to a specialist but not enough to admit using it.

pengaru• 6 months ago

A year or so ago, I fed my wife's blood work results into chatgpt

Why would you consult a known bullshit generator for anything this important?

port114• 6 months ago

You used a predictive/statistical proximity chatbot on a single point-in-time snapshot of her blood, and you’re pissed that the result wasn’t useful? I think any decent GP would push back, want to see trends in the data, or at least look at the broader context.

I mean, at some point we have to admit that LLMs aren’t designed for correctness but utility.

anonzzzies• 6 months ago

Apple watch told me, based on vo2 max, that i'm almost dead, all the time. I went to the doctor, did a real test and it was complete nonsense. I had the watch replaced 3 times but same results, so I returned it and will not try again. Scaring people with stuff you cannot actually shut off (at least you couldn't before) is not great.

chrisfosterelli• 6 months ago

Health metrics are absolutely tarnished by a lack of proper context. Unsurprisingly, it turns out that you can't reliably take a concept as broad as health and reduce it to a number. We see the same arguments over and over with body fat percentages, vo2 max estimates, BMI, lactate thresholds, resting heart rate, HRV, and more. These are all useful metrics, but it's important to consider them in the proper context that each of them deserve.

This article gave an LLM a bunch of health metrics and then asked it to reduce it to a single score, didn't tell us any of the actual metric values, and then compared that to a doctor's opinion. Why anyone would expect these to align is beyond my understanding.

The most obvious thing that jumps out to me is that I've noticed doctors generally, for better or worse, consider "health" much differently than the fitness community does. It's different toolsets and different goals. If this person's VO2 max estimate was under 30, that's objectively a poor VO2 max by most standards, and an LLM trained on the internet's entire repository of fitness discussion is likely going to give this person a bad score in terms of cardio fitness. But a doctor who sees a person come in who isn't complaining about anything in particular, moves around fine, doesn't have risk factors like age or family history, and has good metrics on a blood test is probably going to say they're in fine cardio health regardless of what their wearable says.

I'd go so far to say this is probably the case for most people. Your average person is in really poor fitness-shape but just fine health-shape.

colechristensen3• 6 months ago

I'd go so far to say this is probably the case for most people. Your average person is in really poor fitness-shape but just fine health-shape.

Modern medicine has failed to move into the era of subtlety and small problems and many people suffer as a result. Fitness nerds and general non-scientists fill the gap poorly so we get a ton of guessing and anecdotal evidence and likely a whole lot of bad advice.

Doctors won't say there's a problem until you're SICK and usually pretty late in the process when there's not a lot of room to make improvements.

At the same time, doctors won't do anything if you're 5% off optimal, but they'll happily give you a medicine that improves one symptom that's 50% off optimal that comes along with 10 side effects. Although unless you're dying or have something really straightforward wrong with you, doctors don't do much at all besides giving you a sedative and or a stimulant.

Doctors don't know what to do with small problems because they're barely studied and the people who DO try to do something don't do it scientifically.

lnsru• 6 months ago

It’s not medicine. It’s healthcare system. Doctor isn’t paid enough to go thoroughly through the complaint and dig deeper. In Germany you get 5 minutes diagnose and that’s all from health insurance. And this from the better doctor. For normal one diagnose comes from 2 minutes interaction. Believing that the diagnose is right is very naive.

anon70002• 6 months ago

A worthwhile book to read on this topic is Outlive by Peter Attia (MD). The core premise is that American healthcare focuses far too much on treating problems after they’re extremely severe. It is would be cheaper and healthier to invest more into conservative & preventative care, trying to prevent or minimize problems early in life before they become incredibly dangerous and expensive/difficult/impossible to treat.

I have a close friend who works in conservative care, and it’s astonishing what they see. For example, someone went to a number of specialists and doctors about a throat condition where they really struggled swallowing. They even had to swallow a radioactive pill to do some kind of imaging. Unnecessary exposure, and an expensive process to go through, and ultimately went exactly nowhere.

Meanwhile, it was a simple musculoskeletal issue which my friend was able to resolve in a single visit with absolutely no risk to the patient.

Medical schools need to stop producing MDs who reach for pills as the first line of defense without trying to root cause issues. Do you really need addictive pain killers, or maybe some PT, exercise, massage, etc. to help resolve your pain.

Propelloni• 6 months ago

Maybe I'm not getting you right, but IMO it hasn't? I, as a customer/patient, just don't weekly converse with my MD about small issues, and frankly, they have better things to do, for example treating sick people.

Instead I use the health benefits programs of my health care insurer. My insurer has an interest in prevention, so I can get consulting for free (or very low fees), and even kickbacks if I regularly participate in fitness courses and maintain my yearly check-up routine. Now, I live in Germany and it probably is different in other countries, but it just makes economic sense from the insurer's point of view so that I would be surprised if it were very different elsewhere.

Angostura• 6 months ago

Doctors won't say there's a problem until you're SICK and usually pretty late in the process when there's not a lot of room to make improvements.

As someone who is fit and active,in their 60s with zero obvious symptoms, but is nonetheless on cholesterol and blood pressure medication, this isn't true (in the UK, at least)

steveBK1233• 6 months ago

It’s also cultural. Most American doctors don’t bother to tell people if they are overweight and out of shape. It’s not something their customers reward.

PlatoIsADisease• 6 months ago

I think one of the major problems is that biologists/scientists cannot legally treat people. Physicians take their studies and have monopolistic treatment powers over them.

I think this creates a huge knowledge gap.

Shank• 6 months ago

But a doctor who sees a person come in who isn't complaining about anything in particular, moves around fine, doesn't have risk factors like age or family history, and has good metrics on a blood test is probably going to say they're in fine cardio health regardless of what their wearable says.

This is true of many metrics and even lab results. Good doctors will counsel you and tell you that the lab results are just one metric and one input. The body acclimates to its current conditions over time, and quite often achieves homeostasis.

My grandma was living for years with an SpO2 in the 90-95% range as measured by pulse oximetry, but this was just one metric measured with one method. It doesn't mean her blood oxygen was actually repeatedly dropping, it just meant that her body wasn't particularly suited to pulse oximetry.

vidarh3• 6 months ago

It doesn't help when doctors are often unaware of outliers affecting the test results. E.g. I've had a number of doctors freak out over my eGFR (kidney function) test results because the default test they use is affected by body mass and diet, and made even worse by e.g. preworkout supplements with creatine. None of my doctors have been aware of this, and I've had to explain it to them.

theshrike797• 6 months ago

Measuring metrics is easy, it's the algorithm on the backend that matters.

There's a reason why Oura rings are expensive and it's not the hardware - you can get similar stuff for 50€ on Aliexpress.

But none of them predicted my Covid infection days in advance. Oura did.

A device like the Apple Watch that's on you 24/7 is good with TRENDS, not absolute measurements. It can tell you if your heart rate, blood oxygen or something else is more or less than before, statistically. For absolute measurements it's OK, but not exact.

And from that we can make educated guesses on whether a visit to a doctor is necessary.

yolo3000• 6 months ago

I'm curious how the ring detected it in advance? I also discovered my Covid when I looked at my Garmin watch and my resting heart rate was 100, until then I had thought I had too much sun that day.

smallerfish• 6 months ago

But none of them predicted my Covid infection days in advance. Oura did.

It actually warned you, or retrospectively looking at the metrics you could see that there was a pattern in advance of symptoms? (If the latter, same here with my Garmin watch - precipitous HRV decline in the 7 days before symptoms. But no actual warning.)

sksksk• 6 months ago

This article gave an LLM a bunch of health metrics and then asked it to reduce it to a single score, didn't tell us any of the actual metric values, and then compared that to a doctor's opinion. Why anyone would expect these to align is beyond my understanding.

This gets to one of LLMs' core weaknesses, they blindly respond to your requests and rarely push back against the premise of it.

next_xibalba• 6 months ago

I read somewhere that LLM chat apps are optimized to return something useful, not correct or comprehensive (where useful is defined as the user accepts it). I found this explanation to be a useful (ha!) way to explain to friends and family why they need to be skeptical of LLM outputs.

inopinatus2• 6 months ago

Many of those metrics are population or sampling measures and are confounded by many factors at an individual level. The most notorious of which is BMI; it is practically a category error to infer someone's health or risk by individual BMI, and yet doing so remains widespread amongst people that are supposed to know better.

Instrumentation and testing become primarily useful at an individual level to explain or investigate someone's disease or disorder, or to screen for major risk factors, and the hazards and consequences of unnecessary testing outweigh the benefits in all but a few cases. For which your GP and/or government will (or should) routinely screen those at actual risk, which is why I pooped in a jar last week and mailed it.

An athlete chasing an ever-better VO2max or FTP hasn't necessarily got it wrong, however. We can say something like, "Bjorn Daehlie’s results are explained by extraordinary VO2max", with an implication that you should go get results some other way because you're not a five-sigma outlier. But at the pointy end of elite sport, there's a clear correlation between marginal improvement of certain measures and competitive outcomes, and if you don't think the difference of 0.01sec between first and third matters then you've never stood on a podium. Or worse, next to one. When mistakes are made and performance deteriorates, it's often due to chasing the wrong metric(s) for the athlete at hand, generally a failure of coaching.

FeteCommuniste4• 6 months ago

The most notorious of which is BMI; it is practically a category error to infer someone's health or risk by individual BMI, and yet doing so remains widespread amongst people that are supposed to know better.

BMI works fine for people who aren't very muscular, which is the great majority of people. Waist to height ratio might be more informative for people with higher muscle mass.

eleveriven5• 6 months ago

The problem is that the product itself invites the wrong expectation

saghm• 6 months ago

On the other hand, if compressing to a single number is not possible, a doctor will just refuse to give a grade in that way. In my experience, most doctors tend to be very careful about trying to avoid saying anything definitive that they're not actually sure of, even if they're reasonably confident, in large part because part of their job involves understanding how patients react to how things are communicated to them. Being willing to confidently give a misleading answer to a bad question is itself as bad thing when it comes to health data because regular people aren't able to (and shouldn't be expected to) figure out what various interferences from health data happen to feasible from a given data set.

teleforce• 6 months ago

But a doctor who sees a person come in who isn't complaining about anything in particular, moves around fine, doesn't have risk factors like age or family history, and has good metrics on a blood test is probably going to say they're in fine cardio health regardless of what their wearable says.

The standard risk model for CVD based on SCORE-2 and PREVENT like parameters are very poor as reported in the recently published paper on the their accuracy performance by the Swedish team [1]. As all CVD risk stratification with cardiologist review, the most important accuracy is sensivity (avoiding false negative that will escape review) of SCORE-2 and PREVENT, 48% and 26%, respectively.

The paper alternative proposal increased the sensitivity to 58% by performing clustering instead of conventional regression models as practiced in the standard SCORE-2 (Europe) and PREVENT (US).

These type of models including the latest proposal performed very poorly as indicated by their otherwise excellent and intuitive display of graphical abstract results [1].

[1] Risk stratification for cardiovascular disease: a comparative analysis of cluster analysis and traditional prediction models:

https://academic.oup.com/eurjpc/advance-article/doi/10.1093/...

seemaze2• 6 months ago

I can't wait until it starts recommending signing me up for an OpenAI personalized multi-vitamin® supscription

meindnoch• 6 months ago

"You're absolutely right! I was mistaken about mercury and lead being essential minerals, and adding them to your supplements. Sorry about that!"

seemaze2• 6 months ago

I was casually browsing for a heath monitor when I came across Ultrahuman Blood Vision - one of the key features being AI Clinical Summary with Supplement Report.. it seems my sarcasm was late to the party.

elzbardico6• 6 months ago

A simple understanding of transformers should be enough to make someone see that using an LLM to analyze multi-variate time series data is a really stupid endeavor.

nprateem3• 6 months ago

It should be obvious to even the most dim-witted idiot with a PhD in statistics and AI

elzbardico6• 6 months ago

You only need this if you are a researcher. Undergraduate knowledge of Calculus and Linear Algebra is more than enough to have quite a good understanding of ML in general, and LLMs in particular.

Maybe a very small bit of Information Theory (a couple of Shannon's papers are enough) and some classical books on Natural Language Processing from the late 90s and early 2000 so you have an idea of what Language Models are outside the modern Deep Learning driven approach.

elzbardico6• 6 months ago

LLMs are not a mythical universal machine learning model that you can feed any input and have it magically do the same thing a specialized ML model could do.

You can't feed an LLM years of time-series meteorological data, and expect it to work as a specialized weather model, you can't feed it years of medical time-series and expect it to work as a model specifically trained, and validated on this specific kind of data.

An LLM generates a stream of tokens. You feed it a giant set of CSVs, if it was not RL'd to do something useful with it, it will just try to make whatever sense of it and generate something that will most probably have no strong numerical relationship to your data, it will simulate an analysis, it won't do it.

You may have a giant context windows, but attention is sparse, the attention mechanism doesn't see your whole data at the same time, it can do some simple comparisons, like figuring out that if I say my current pressure is 210X180 I should call an ER immediately. But once I send it a time-series of my twice a day blood-pressure measurements for the last 10 years, it can't make any real sense of it.

Indeed, it would have been better for the author to ask the LLM to generate a python notebook to do some data analysis on it, and then run the notebook and share the result with the doctor.

rfw300• 6 months ago

This is true as a technical matter, but this isn't a technical blog post! It's a consumer review, and when companies ship consumer products, the people who use them can't be expected to understand failure modes that are not clearly communicated to them. If OpenAI wants regular people to dump their data into ChatGPT for Health, the onus is on them to make it reliable.

themafia3• 6 months ago

the onus is on them to make it reliable.

That is not a plausible outcome given the current technology or of any of OpenAI's demonstrated capabilities.

"If Bob's Hacksaw Surgery Center wants to stay in business they have to stop killing patients!"

Perhaps we should just stop him before it goes too far?

protocolture• 6 months ago

This LLM is advertising itself in a medical capacity. You arent wrong, but the customer has been fed the wrong set of expectations. Its the fault of the marketing of the tool.

Deklomalo2• 6 months ago

You state a lot of things without testing it first?

A LLM has structures in its latent space which allows it to do basic math, it has also seen enough data that it has probably structures in it to detect basic trends.

A LLM doesn't just generate a stream of tokens. It generates an embedding and searches/does something in its latent space, then returns tokens.

And you don't even know at all what LLM Interfaces do in the background. Gemini creates sub-agents. There can easily be already a 'trend detector'.

I even did a test and generated random data with a trend and fet it to chatgpt. The output was very coherent and right.

elzbardico6• 6 months ago

That's not how it works.

stego-tech• 6 months ago

This is not remotely surprising.

Look, AI Healthbros, I'll tell you quite clearly what I want from your statistical pattern analyzers, and you don't even have to pay me for the idea (though I wouldn't say no to a home or Enterprise IT gig at your startup):

I want an AI/ML tool to not merely analyze my medical info (ON DEVICE, no cloud sharing kthx), but also extrapolate patterns involving weather, location, screen time, and other "non-health" data.

Do I record taking tylenol when the barometric pressure drops? Start alerting me ahead of time so I can try to avoid a headache.

Does my screen time correlate to immediately decreased sleep scores? Send me a push notification or webhook I can act upon/script off of, like locking me out of my device for the night or dimming my lights.

Am I recording higher-intensity workouts in colder temperatures or inclement weather? Start tracking those metrics and maybe keep better track of balance readings during those events for improved mobility issue detection.

Got an app where I track cannabis use or alcohol consumption? Tie that to my mental health journal or biological readings to identify red flags or concerns about misuse.

Stop trying to replace people like my medical care team, and instead equip them with better insights and datasets they can more quickly act upon. "Subject has been reporting more negative moods in his mental health journal, an uptick in alcohol consumption above his baseline, and inconsistent cannabis use compared to prior patterns" equips the care team with a quick, verifiable blurb from larger datasets that can accelerate care and improve patient outcomes - without the hallucinations of generative AI.

siliconc0w• 6 months ago

The problem is that false positives can be incredibly expensive in money, time, pain, and anxiety. Most people cannot afford (and healthcare system cannot handle) thousands of dollars in tests to disprove every AI hunch. And tests are rarely consequence free. This is effectively a negative externality of these AI health products and society is picking up the tab.

mr_toad4• 6 months ago

This is why certain types of cancer tests are usually only performed on people over a certain age. If you test young people the false positives outnumber the true positives.

jdub2• 6 months ago

Why do people even begin to believe that a large language model can usefully understand and interpret health data?

Sure, LLM companies and proponents bear responsibility for the positioning of LLM tools, and particularly their presentation as chat bots.

But from a systems point of view, it's hard to ignore the inequity and inconvenience of the US health system driving people to unrealistic alternatives.

(I wonder if anyone's gathering comparable stats on "Doctor LLM" interactions in different countries... there were some interesting ones that showed how "Doctor Google" was more of a problem in the US than elsewhere.)

djoldman• 6 months ago

I'm less interested in what "grade" the AI gave and much more interested in what therapy or remedy it would have suggested. That's curiously lacking here.

daft_pink• 6 months ago

the problem with ai is that it isn’t good at recognizing red flags in data. i used it to find red flags in a financial report and it finds red flags in virtually every financial report it lays eyes on.

evolighting• 6 months ago

Health data, medical records, even research data, is very scarce in the public domain. This is not just due to so-called privacy concerns, but because such data could have generated “value” (and been sold at a good price) long before the emergence of large language models.

ThundeChile• 6 months ago

I think it's quite alarming that people don't even think about the privacy when sending their health data to corporations which make a large percentage of their revenue selling the data onwards (or using it to things you didn't mean them to).

cameldrv• 6 months ago

I dunno, if the Apple Watch said he had a vo2max of 30, that probably means he can’t run a mile in less than 12 minutes or so. He’s probably not at all healthy…

smcl2• 6 months ago

Apple Watch is pretty poor at estimating VO2 max and it seems to be more correlated with how often you record exercises with said watch than with your actual health. For example I watched mine climb slowly as I prepared for my football season (beyond 50), then after the season started I I ended up playing and training just as frequently but without wearing the watch. After a few weeks (of me training and playing hard) during my next run it recorded me having a sharp decline in VO2 max (43-44ish iirc). When I started wearing it during training - you're not permitted during matches - it recorded me having a slow return to condition, without any changes to my routine.

That said if it's showing someone as having 30 I don't imagine they're going to be in spectacular condition

eleveriven5• 6 months ago

This is really more of an "utdoor run while wearing the watch" proxy than a true fitness measure

port114• 6 months ago

I really don’t know whether to trust that specific measurement. When I was a very active runner and doing intervals to improve per-km time, my VO2max went from 38 to 42. I decided to do a professional VO2max test and got a 46.

Now, 2 years later, I don’t run due to injury and a kid, and it’s resting at 34. For reference, when I went to the gym almost everyday and ran once or twice a week, the value was 32.

I don’t get much utility out of it, even looking at the trends. Not sure what Apple is doing behind the scenes to get the score.

Someone• 6 months ago

he had a vo2max of 30, that probably means he can’t run a mile in less than 12 minutes or so. He’s probably not at all healthy…

Health and fitness correlate but are different things. VO2max is more about fitness than about health.

Also, looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max#Reference_values, 30 is about average for men in their 40s/50s, which, form a quick google, I estimate is the author’s age range.

netdevphoenix• 6 months ago

Fitness correlates with health though. Just because you don't have any conditions does not mean that you are healthy. And inability to meet certain fitness tests is correlated with lower health.

FeteCommuniste4• 6 months ago

Also, looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max#Reference_values, 30 is about average for men in their 40s/50s, which, form a quick google, I estimate is the author’s age range.

And the average man is his 40s or 50s is in...not especially good aerobic shape.

danielmarkbruce3• 6 months ago

This is a silly take. VO2 max is one of the strongest predictors of all cause mortality. Various large scale studies have shown it to be true.

dgxyz• 6 months ago

If Apple watch said anything about that it's probably wrong. It can't accurately measure VO2 max.

Incidentally I got rid of mine recently. It is bliss not having one.

Also VO2 max is a crappy measure of fitness. I apparently had "average" VO2 max after a treadmill test. I can hike 50km with a 2km elevation gain in one go and not die. People with higher VO2 max I know, dropped out.

evandijk70• 6 months ago

During a 50 km hike you are not anywhere close to your VO2 max, so it makes sense that the VO2 max is not predictive for that distance.

bwv848• 6 months ago

hike 50km with a 2km elevation gain in one go and not die.

And thru-hikers can do this for days. It’s more related to fatigue resistance, mitochondrial density, and walking efficiency. But VO2 max still matters in high-intensity sports, you can’t ignore it when you’re pedaling a bike at high Zone 4 in a race.

danielmarkbruce3• 6 months ago

vo2 max is one of the strongest predictors of all cause mortality.

lurking_swe• 6 months ago

You’re not wrong. However - the Health app on the iphone (where you can view your health data) makes this VERY clear. Most people just don’t read.

I’ll quote:

“This is a measurement of your VO2 max, which is the maximum amount of oxygen your body can consume during exercise. Also called cardiorespiratory fitness, this is a useful measurement for everyone from the very fit to those managing illness.

A higher VO, max indicates a higher level of cardio fitness and endurance.

Measuring VO2 max requires a physical test and special equipment. You can also get an estimated VO, max with heart rate and motion data from a fitness tracker. Apple Watch can record an estimated VO max when you do a brisk walk, hike, or run outdoors.

VO, max is classified for users 20 and older. Most people can improve their VO, max with more intense and more frequent cardiovascular exercise. Certain conditions or medications that limit your heart rate may cause an overestimation of your VO, max. VOz max is not validated for pregnant users. You can indicate you're taking certain medications or add a current pregnancy in Health Details.”

mr_toad4• 6 months ago

Compared to the average patient a typical GP sees, someone who can actually run a mile is probably doing pretty well.

smt882• 6 months ago

This is certainly true in the US, but I don't think it's universal at all

akshivb• 6 months ago

I had a "below average" VO2 max score based on my Apple Watch measurements. It was ~40 mL/kg/min, in the span of about a month it jumped up to 53 mL/kg/min, which is "high" for my age group. So what happened? I started running instead of cycling as my primary form of cardio.

My hypothesis is that the apple watch estimates higher if you are running rather than pedaling. I definitely don't think my cardio vascular went from poor to great over a month. It seems more likely that it was maybe underestimating, and perhaps now is overestimating.

wincy• 6 months ago

Yeah I just ignore it, when I was biking 40+ miles a week this summer it says my VO2 max was 18, which is just absurd. Maybe because my arm is really hairy I don’t know.

mdtancsa• 6 months ago

After a long injury, I got back to slowly running on the treadmill/bike/elliptical at the gym. IIRC, my garmin qualified its VO2Max results by saying I needed to run out side for some period of time to get a more accurate measurement. I guess there is something about the running metrics it collects that has a smaller error range.

sinuhe69• 6 months ago

My general take on any AI/ML in medicine is that without a proper clinical validation, they are not worth to try. Also, AI Snake Oil is worth reading.

rubatuga2• 6 months ago

Clinical validation, proper calibration, ethnic and community and population variants, questioning technique and more ...

joelthelion• 6 months ago

Exactly. There's a lot of potential, but it needs to be done right, otherwise it is worse than useless.

gizmodo59• 6 months ago

For every sensational article of AI was useless, there is plenty of examples where using ChatGPT to find out what else could be happening and then having a conversation with doctor has helped many that I know of anecdotally and many such reports online as well.

At the end of the day, it’s yet another tool that people can use to help their lives. They have to use their brain. The culture of seeing doctor as a god doesn’t hold up anymore. So many people have had bad experiences when the entire health care industry at least in US is primarily a business than helping society get healthy.

gizajob3• 6 months ago

Hard to tell who is stupider, the writer or ChatGPT.

astura• 6 months ago

The writer makes money from pumping out shitty click bait articles.

FeteCommuniste4• 6 months ago

I don't see how it's "shitty." It portrays a usage of ChatGPT that I imagine is becoming pretty typical. People are treating "AI" as an oracle. The situation isn't helped by corporate heads and LLM boosters blathering on about how AI is soon going to replace most of the workforce, boost productivity by a gazillion percent, and cure cancer.

Barathkanna• 6 months ago

TLDR: AI didn’t diagnose anything, it turned years of messy health data into clear trends. That helped the author ask better questions and have a more useful conversation with their doctor, which is the real value here.

alpineman• 6 months ago

My wife is a doctor and there is a general trend at the moment of everyone thinking their intelligence in one area (say programming) carries over into other areas such as medicine, particularly with new tools such as ChatGPT.

Imagine if as a dev someone came to you and told you everything that is wrong with your tech stack because they copy pasted some console errors into ChatGPT. There's a reason doctors need to spend almost a decade in training to parse this kind of info. If you do the above then please do it with respect for their profession.

tripledry• 6 months ago

I'm reminded of an effect called Gell-Mann Amnesia.

When reading news stories on topics you know well, you notice inaccuracies or poor reporting - but then immediately forget that lesson when reading the next article on a topic you are not familiar with.

It's very similar to what happens with AI.

FeteCommuniste4• 6 months ago

My wife is a doctor and there is a general trend at the moment of everyone thinking their intelligence in one area (say programming) carries over into other areas such as medicine, particularly with new tools such as ChatGPT.

My wife is a lawyer and sees the same thing at her job. People "writing" briefs or doing legal "research" with GPT and then insisting that their document must be right because the magic AI box produced it.

mr_toad4• 6 months ago

general trend at the moment

“A little knowledge is a dangerous thing” is not new, it’s a quote/observation that goes back hundreds of years.

Imagine if as a dev someone came to you and told you everything that is wrong with your tech stack because they copy pasted some console errors into ChatGPT.

You mean the PHB? They don’t need ChatGPT for that, they can cite Gartner.

Aachen2• 6 months ago

I let ChatGPT analyze a decade of my Apple Watch data, then I called my doctor

... and you won't believe what happened next!

Can we do away with the clickbait from MSN? The article is about LLMs misdiagnosing cardiovascular status when given fitness tracker data

g947o• 6 months ago

I have www.msn.com added to the blocklist of my router's adblock settings so that I can stop seeing nonsense in Skype/Windows. It worked for a while.

Of course, the real solution is to stop using Microsoft products, which I did.

Aachen2• 6 months ago

Frankly the main thing I take issue with is dumping these garbage titles onto HN. They can do what they want on their site

eleveriven5• 6 months ago

Right now this looks less like "AI for healthcare" and more like a very polished way to scare (or falsely reassure) people

cthalupa4• 6 months ago

I'll preface this with I generally trust doctors. I think on the whole they are well positioned to provide massive benefit to their patients.

I will also preface this with saying I do not think any LLM is better than the average doctor and that you are far better served going to your doctor than asking ChatGPT what your health is like on any factor.

But I'll also say that the quality of doctors varies massively, and that a good amount of doctors learn what they learn in school and do not keep up with the latest advances in research, particularly those that have broad spectrums such as GPs. LLMs that search scientific literature, etc., might point you in the direction of this research that the doctors are not aware of. Or hallucinate you into having some random disease that impacts 3 out of every million people and send you down a rabbithole for months.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to resolve this without extremely good insurance or money to burn. The depth you get and the level of information that a good preventative care cardiologist has is just miles ahead of where your average family medicine practitioner is at. Statins are an excellent example - new prescriptions are for atorvastatin are still insanely high despite it being a fairly poor choice in comparison to rosuvastatin or pitavastatin for a good chunk of the people on it. They often are behind on the latest recommendations from the NLA and AHA, etc.

There's a world where LLMs or similar can empower everyday people to talk to their doctor about their options and where they stand on health, where they don't have to hope their doc is familiar with where the science has shifted over the past 5-10 years, or cough up the money for someone who specializes in it. But that's not the world of today.

In the mean time, I do think people should be comfortable being their own advocates with their doctors. I'm lucky enough that my primary care doc is open to reading the studies I send over to him on things and work with me. Or at least patient enough to humor me. But it's let me get on medications that treat my symptoms without side effects and improved my quality of life (and hopefully life/healthspan). There's also been things I've misinterpreted - I don't pick a fight with him if we come to opposite conclusions. He's shown good faith in agreeing with me where it makes sense to me, and pushed back where it hasn't, and I acknowledge he's the expert.

biophysboy• 6 months ago

I think the fairest test is: what is the best and fastest way to reduce medical uncertainty? For rare ailments with a single cause and exclusive symptoms, that can be accurately described with simple language (no medical jargon), its possible that an LLM is better than a doctor.

For more ambiguous situations where you need actual tests, I am skeptical of using LLMs.

port114• 6 months ago

I interviewed for Ada, whose ML diagnostic tool had shown itself more accurate at diagnosis than a panel of doctors. It was specifically trained on case data, IIRC, and doctors were paid to help improve the results.

I wonder what it’s like now. Any time I use it for a diagnosis I get outlandish results, and then I’ll head to my GP and turns out it was something rather simple.

francisofascii• 6 months ago

There were big swings in my resting heart rate whenever I got a new Apple Watch, suggesting the devices may not have been tracking the same way.

First of all, wrist based HR measurements are not reliable. If you feed ChatGPT a ton of HR data that is just plain wrong, expect a bad result. Everyone who wants to track HR reliably should invest in a chest strap. The VO2 Max calculation is heavily based on your pace at a given heart rate. It makes some generalizations on on your running biomechanics. For example, if your "real" lab tested VO2 max stays constant, but you improve your biomechanics / running efficiency, you can run faster at the same effort, and your Apple watch will increase your VO2 Max number.

AlanYx• 6 months ago

In this case the article's guess is probably accurate. Apple did change how they measure RHR in WatchOS 11.2. If the author was using an Apple Watch that doesn't support 11.2 and then switched to one that does, a swing was very likely.

zombot• 6 months ago

Giving your health data to an AI is sick. Unfortunately no doctor can cure you of that.

hasbot• 6 months ago

Hmm, sure it's maybe wrong now, but in several years, it could be correct. So maybe I should wear a device now so when it does become correct and I'm even older, AI might be useful.

I'm definitely not going with Apple. Are there any minimally obtrusive trackers that provide downloadable data?

spicyusername• 6 months ago

So we're feeding bad data into a system known for making answers up and expecting... what exactly, lol

zhisme• 6 months ago

Check out iatrogenesis. There's no need to rely on apple watch data to become some drug addicted guy curing never existed diseases. That's not the metric you want to define whether you need meds and medical help at all.

blef• 6 months ago

The title would have been event better if: "I had ChatGPT analyze a decade of my Apple Watch data, then it called my doctor"

ge96• 6 months ago

I think I found the proper sleep amount for me (sleep deprived). It has me feeling agitated/motivated. It's around 5 hours. What I need is something like Apple Watch to detect when I've actually fallen asleep then set the alarm for that long.

jablongo• 6 months ago

There needs to be more documentation about what info was provided to the LLM and in which format before we decide that LLMs are necessarily bad at this. That said, you would expect the offering from a $500bn company to be more robust and better tested than this, assuming this is reported accurately.

uriegas• 6 months ago

There are some research projects out there that use LLMs for health diagnostics. Here's one: https://cs.stanford.edu/people/jure/pubs/med-pmlr23.pdf

They usually require more data It is not a great idea to diagnose anything with so few information. But in general I am optimistic of the use of LLMs on health.

6stringmerc• 6 months ago

In my view the people, no matter walk of life or education level or societal class, who ask “AI” systems mental or physical health questions are modern day incarnations of customers who went to palm readers, tarot card sessions, or used to rely on televangelists for hope and meaning.

I strongly dislike the author conflating HIPAA with PHI but this is a losing battle for me. And clearly editors don’t spot it, neither do AI systems - where is Clippy?! It simply serves as an indicator the author is a pretty ignorant medical consumer in the US, and this case study is stunning. Some people really should not be allowed to engage with magic.

tiffanyh• 6 months ago

What's the feedback loop here for ChatGPT?

For it to get better, it needs to know outcomes of its diagnosis.

Are people just typing back to ChatGPT saying "you're wrong / you're right"?

rurban• 6 months ago

I use the free Huawei Health for like 2 years, and it was pretty good so far. The sensors suck of course, but better than nothing. I had a special watch to test my high blood pressure, but even this never matched my special pressure device.

danielmarkbruce3• 6 months ago

vo2 max is one of the strongest predictors of all cause mortality. It's been reproduced across several large scale studies. I'm on the side of ChatGPT on this one. I'd guess the writer of this article is leaving something out.

A family member recently passed away from a rare, clinically diagnosed disease. ChatGPT knew what it was a couple months before the relevant specialists diagnosed it.

I let ChatGPT analyze a decade of my Apple Watch data, then I called my doctor

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