Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/apple-becomes-first-tech-giant-to-explicitly-ban-caste-discrimination-trains-managers-on-indian-caste-system-1988183-2022-08-15

by gunvantsr • 4 years ago

601 446 4 years ago

indiatoday.in

mcv4• 4 years ago

My dad once told me of how at his work (in the 1980s or early 1990s, I think), they had a team of two Indians assigned to a project. One turned out to be of a much "higher" caste than the other, and refused to work with the other, making him utterly useless to the project.

It's good that Apple, IBM and other tech companies are taking steps to prevent this sort of discrimination. It's a shame that Google seems be going in the opposite direction.

smcl• 4 years ago

It says in the article that Google (and Microsoft, Dell, Amazon + FB/Meta) aren't (yet?) implementing this, but I didn't see anything about them doing the opposite. Additionally I don't imagine they'd gain much from doing so, as a business. Is there any more info on this?

boppo1• 4 years ago

Wouldn't lose much either. I'd argue they'd gain face in today's climate. "DEI best practices aren't just for white people anymore" is probably a good look.

spinningarrow• 4 years ago

From the article:

Just a few months ago in June, Google, whose CEO Sundar Pichai has Indian roots, cancelled a talk on caste discrimination where Dalit rights activist Thenmozhi Soundararajan was supposed to give a presentation. The talk was organised by Google employee Tanuja Gupta.

It’s not the opposite but probably what GP was referring to.

gonehome• 4 years ago

I remember reading that it’s a big problem at Cisco. In your dad’s example what ended up happening? From your description the guy who refused to work in the higher caste should be fired imo.

mcv4• 4 years ago

I forgot what happened, but knowing my dad, he probably did it himself.

stjohnswarts2• 4 years ago

I know who I would have fired without hesitation.

civilized6• 4 years ago

Along with anyone who found this a difficult decision once the facts were clear.

People with these beliefs don't belong anywhere in society where they can oppress others. Just as white people who think blacks are beneath them do not belong in any setting where they can affect a black person.

Mo3• 4 years ago

Yeah. "Caste", "Color", doesn't matter, all the same shit. If someone sees a problem there, they're unfit for a lot of other stuff.

spaceman_20208• 4 years ago

The real shame is that living in Delhi, I’ve seen caste come back very strongly in everyday discourse.

I’ve been here almost 20 years. This city used to be largely caste agnostic.

Now when I meet new people, especially outside the elite tech circles, they will casually mention their upper caste status (“As Brahmins, we don’t do xyz of course!”).

Even cars carrying caste stickers are more common.

thorncorona• 4 years ago

Do you know why this happened?

registeredcorn3• 4 years ago

I have not had to work with the caste system before. In your opinion, are there any benefits for low-to-mid caste in such a system?

breitling• 4 years ago

From what I hear from my Indian friends, this behaviour is quite ingrained. Like other racism, it will be challenging to prove.

dimitrios12• 4 years ago

I work predominately with Indian coworkers. You are exactly correct in my view.

Racism has technically been banned in the United States wholesale since the Civil Rights act, yet we struggle with the effects still today.

This is a step in a right direction, but it should be seen as only as the beginning.

ummonk27• 4 years ago

Casteism, while bad, is not racism. Saying casteism is ingrained in Indians on the other hand is racism.

cloutchaser• 4 years ago

Most likely apple has nothing to lose by doing this.

Where they do have something to lose: Taiwan v China politics - they side with China so they don't lose, going completely against any principled stand.

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/07/apple-ask...

greatpostman• 4 years ago

looks the other way when Indian director has all Indian SDMs reporting to him

It’s all lip service. Nepotism is rampant at FAANG

eatbitseveryday3• 4 years ago

At a large semiconductor company, the same could be said for many groups: Chinese hiring other Chinese, one group hiring native Americans mostly, others with Hispanic origin…

ChuckNorris89• 4 years ago

Human tribalism is, unfortunately, present everywhere. Every country and every company.

rhexs• 4 years ago

A Native American group? I mean damn, that’s gotta be so rare I’d almost support it.

Or did you mean an American company hiring Americans? That’d be pretty rare too.

40acres2• 4 years ago

I worked for the same large semiconductor company and saw the same thing play out. It was hinted to me by some mentors that I was in a good position because my manager was White as opposed to Indian or Chinese.

ramesh31• 4 years ago

looks the other way when Indian director has all Indian SDMs reporting to him

I've seen it happen so many times now that I can call it ahead of time. Critical mass is when you get a VP. From there, you go from representational levels to >50% Indian in a matter of months.

eweise2• 4 years ago

Happened at my last company. They hired an Indian CTO and before long, all the management under him was Indian. He basically made life unbearable for the existing leaders until they quit and then brought in someone he knew. Seemed like blatant racism to me.

ValentineC• 4 years ago

I don't know if it's nepotism, but Changi Business Park [1], a tech hub in Singapore, is nicknamed Chennai Business Park [2], for much of the same reason outlined in this thread.

[1] http://www.changibusinesspark.com/

[2] https://www.google.com/search?q=chennai+business+park

colechristensen• 4 years ago

Having done many interviews around silicon valley, the demographics of companies definitely seem very ... themed. Not necessarily monochromatic for a particular ethnic group, but a small set of ethic groups usually overwhelmingly represented.

And at that, this wasn't a thing that seemed particularly biased towards one theme.

mmmpop• 4 years ago

Maybe not the exact place for this, but after a few years of working with "near-shore" development groups in Latin America, I can't believe how white the leadership is. For all who think the US is #1 awful place for non-White folks, just look at Brazil.

drstewart• 4 years ago

Brazilians. I know of one group of ~4 that basically follows the leader (a Director / CXO type) to every position. Whenever he moves, they all inevitable end up at the same exact company within 1-3 months. It's actually impressive how consistent their resumes are going back a decade or so.

themanmaran• 4 years ago

They always travel in groups of five...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-b7-fLOjlY

strikelaserclaw• 4 years ago

its cause indian managers can have fiefdoms with other indians under them. total power.

thankful693• 4 years ago

If it is, is kept very secret between Indian employees, most American engineers (at least I would) will raise the issue. I don't care how high the is Director, I would just tell him that he is being racist , at his face, if he gets me fired, I would sue the company in a second. I have never seen this non-sense at FAANG in the 7 years I have worked here (Amazon first, then Google).

oefrha• 4 years ago

It’s not a secret? I recall having a discussion on this with a bunch of SV engineers a decade ago at a potluck and almost everyone observed how Indian managers tend to hire Indians at their respective companies.

2OEH8eoCRo0• 4 years ago

I love when there is a position that sounds awesome but then says something like: "Hispanic or other underprivileged groups are encouraged to apply".

It's legal to say that out loud?

teakettle426• 4 years ago

The most charitable interpretation is that they are attempting to increase representation in the pipeline of candidates, such that their unbiased, neutral selection process will naturally produce outcomes representative of their candidate pool.

That’s legal.

In reality, when you have companies literally setting hiring targets on the basis of protected characteristics?

It’s very unlikely that the selection process is neutral to those protected characteristics, which is not legal.

pm904• 4 years ago

Yes it is, because statistically they do not.

ajross• 4 years ago

To be fair: nepotism is rampant everywhere, and has been throughout history. How many groups have you worked in or seen where everyone got recruited from the same set of schools? Where everyone used to work together at some other company?

The difference with what you're seeing is all down to who is allowed to be nepotistic. When south asian engineers were predominantly junior immigrants, you didn't notice anything wrong. Now the casteists are doing the hiring too. But the effect is the same.

eweise2• 4 years ago

Nepotism where everyone hired is the same race is called racism.

amzn-throw• 4 years ago

Since we're sharing anecdotes and that's good enough for this thread, here's my own:

I'm a white guy - pretty much a typical one. My manager is a white guy - possibly even more typical, follow along North American Dude Stereotypes for both of us.

For most of the last 2 years, he had 8 reports - 3 managers, 3 product managers, and 2 principal engineers (me being one of them).

I was the only white guys out of 8 - the rest were all Indian.

Why?

Because the other 6 were the best people for the job. They applied for it (some external, some internal), and we hired them, cuz they were rad (and still are).

Demographically, that just happens sometimes, including all-Indian reports

ummonk27• 4 years ago

I have mixed feelings on this.

There are of course things that aren't explicitly prohibited by workplace policies but are no doubt unacceptable - e.g. discriminating against left-handed employees. But it's still useful to have explicit policies against caste discrimination to make clear that it's unacceptable.

On the other hand, as an Indian in a top tech company we're more likely to experience racism than casteism (though both are relatively rare), and this policy is likely to increase racism and result in Indians (and other South Asians) getting singled-out and scrutinized for casteism.

Edit: as if to prove my point about racism, in this very thread there is already a comment talking about Indian nepotism.

JumpCrisscross8• 4 years ago

we're more likely to experience racism than casteism (though both are relatively rare)

I have seen zero evidence for this. The relative or absolute frequency claims.

this policy is likely to increase racism and result in Indians (and other South Asians) getting singled-out and scrutinized for casteism

Strongly disagree. I have Indian heritage. I have no problem with such policy, and am increasingly convinced—in part by comments like this—that it needs the force of statute. (It’s almost certainly already law.)

Also, non-Indians can discriminate based on caste, albeit indirectly, if their information flows through biased channels. The same way someone not racist can further racism if a bigot runs on of their teams.

ummonk27• 4 years ago

If I lived in India I'd be OBC. No Indian coworker (some of whom have had Brahmin last names) has ever asked my caste (white people have on occasion, but only out of harmless curiosity), or showed any signs of discriminating against me over it. I have encountered occasional racism in my career on the other hand. Nobody I know in real life has any experiences of casteism in top tech companies to report, but some do report experiences of racism.

snickerbockers3• 4 years ago

(It’s almost certainly already law.)

Is it? I suppose this will vary depending on which country we're talking about, but as far as i know there's nothing in the US that makes it illegal to discriminate based on caste unless the determination of caste overlaps with another -ism, like race.

throwaway6734• 4 years ago

How is talking about Indian nepotism inherently racist?

havblue• 4 years ago

Edit: as if to prove my point about racism, in this very thread there is already a comment talking about Indian nepotism.

I was wondering if you could clarify this. Why is the caste system fair game to criticize but nepotism isn't?

ummonk27• 4 years ago

I didn't say either was fair game to criticize. Criticism of both tends to provide cover to or be motivated by racism. Especially when there isn't equal emphasis on WASP or Jewish nepotism, when most early tech companies tended to have mostly WASP or Jewish leadership.

DubiousPusher• 4 years ago

Because it's a negative trait being generally applied to a people group based upon their race. And it comes more from a cultural stereotype than from any basis in observable evidence.

strken• 4 years ago

Are you in a caste that's likely to experience discrimination? Or is this widely accepted among people who'd be vulnerable to caste discrimination?

ummonk27• 4 years ago

I'm from a middle-caste - one that currently qualifies for affirmative action quotas in my ancestral state in India, but is reasonably well off economically. Most Indian tech workers with caste names I can recognize are either Brahmin (priestly caste - highest in the ritual hierarchy, though often poor), or Agarwal (middle-caste but extremely wealthy). I eat meat. Most of the upper castes traditionally don't, but a lot of Brahmins for example eat vegetables.

If I went to an orthodox village or town in India, I would likely face discrimination from Brahmins. On the other hand, in educated circles in cosmopolitan cities in India, caste is unlikely to really come up. The one thing that could come up is diet though - in some regions of India, many or even most landlords (including "lower" caste ones) would deny me housing because I cook meat at home and bring non-vegetarian food home. In America, most landlords won't care, but many vegetarian students / residents do insist on vegetarian roommates (likely more because they don't like the smell of meat than due to the religious vegetarian fanaticism that's seen in some parts of India).

Is it possible that dalits (historically untouchables, who constitute something like 2% of Indian-Americans from surveys I've seen) could be discriminated against in top tech companies in America, unlike me? Yeah it's possible. But I'm skeptical, if only because few Indians could tell apart a dalit from someone like me, given the amount of diversity you see in top tech companies - someone from one region of India won't recognize dalit surnames from another region of India. I could, however, see it coming up in some of the less competitive tech companies, where you tend to see more clustering of people from individual regions of India. I have also heard reports (some from friends of friends) of heavy discrimination by more tight-knit ethnic / caste groups in the diaspora that don't tend to work as engineers in tech - e.g. Jatts in the Central Valley or Patels.

FlyingSnake7• 4 years ago

HN can never has a coherent discussion about casteism in modern India OR in NRI populations because they lack the nuance and lived experience required to understand how jati system works. Indians are more likely to be affected by racism than casteism in the west.

JumpCrisscross8• 4 years ago

Indians are more likely to be affected by racism than casteism in the west

Should we ignore sexism faced by black women because they’re more likely to be racially discriminated against?

bart_spoon• 4 years ago

Why is it racist to discuss Indian nepotism? Racism can often take the form of an individual giving preferred status to others who share their own race over others, and examples are frequently, rightfully, pointed out when white people give preferred status over non-whites. But if white people are capable of doing this, is it really that unbelievable that non-white individuals and groups are also capable of this? If not, then how is pointing out racism perpetrated by Indian individuals, itself, a racist act?

steve_taylor• 4 years ago

Did we avoid explicitly banning racial discrimination because there might be a backlash against non-whites? Nope.

snickerbockers3• 4 years ago

This is kinda a dumb argument, but if we have to constantly be reminded not to be racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic, xenophobic, islamophobic, etc we might as well throw casteist into the mix. I'm actually feeling a little schadenfreude now that there's finally an -ism where i'm not part of the demographic that's the "bad guy".

Manuel_D2• 4 years ago

and this policy is likely to increase racism and result in Indians (and other South Asians) getting singled-out and scrutinized for casteism.

Is it? Do Whites get singled out and scrutinized for anti-black racism? Maybe they do, but if it is I doubt it's a significant phenomenon.

ummonk27• 4 years ago

I can’t speak to what whites experience on a personal level, but I can say that my company paid Robin deAngelo to give a talk on “white fragility”, which I found rather offensive, and I’m not even white.

roschdal• 4 years ago

To Apple they are all Indian.

tsycho• 4 years ago

Underrated comment. Not sure if roschdal@ intended it this way, but I interpreted it in a dark way.

bgdam3• 4 years ago

I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant that way. But it is important that Indians who place so much importance and pride on caste understand this. To a non-Indian, you and that supposedly 'lower' caste guy you won't eat together at the same table with are both the same.

kingkawn3• 4 years ago

Casteism is an elaborated form of Classism, which the West will not ban because the whole society depends on that discrimination to decide who’s “smart”

qazpot2• 4 years ago

Casteism is much more worse.

You or your children or your grandchildren atleast have a chance on moving up in class in a capitalistic society like West.

In Casteist society you neither your descendants can ever leave your caste and will always face discrimination does not matter how much money you have.

helf• 4 years ago

Wow that is batshit. This article made me read up more in castes and. . . Wtf?

frontman1988• 4 years ago

You can just change your surname. Nobody will be able to tell your caste. Upward mobility in castes is a lot given the world has moved a lot from the traditional four profession system of priest, warrior, trader and labourer. People work in professions different than their so called caste. This is especially true of immigrants coming to US.

kingkawn3• 4 years ago

Don’t worry, the west is working it’s way there slowly but surely

FactolSarin• 4 years ago

Out of curiosity, for Indians working in America, how hard is it to hide your caste or pretend to be of another caste altogether?

Is this something that comes up in conversation among Indians? Do names tend to correlate to you caste? And if so, do people change them as a way of hiding their family caste?

zeroth325• 4 years ago

Your surname literally gives it away.

FlyingSnake7• 4 years ago

Not really. You’ve no way to find out the caste of a Prasad or Kumar or Deshmukh or a Muralidharan

giantg22• 4 years ago

Not Indian, but a friend told me that most (if not all) of the names do correlate to caste. No idea if people change them, other than for the normal marriage changes.

automatic6131• 4 years ago

No idea if people change them, other than for the normal marriage changes.

Inter-caste marriages are also extremely rare.

yardie2• 4 years ago

I'm not Indian American my origins are Caribbean but I have some Indian origins and can offer a few answers from my experience.

Is this something that comes up in conversation among Indians?

It starts casually with "where are you from?" and the questions get more invasive.

Do names tend to correlate to you caste?

In India, yes it does family name is derived from caste. I had some friends adopt English names to get from under their caste names. So quite a few Johnsons, Smiths, Matthews, Pauls out there.

__MatrixMan__• 4 years ago

It starts casually with "where are you from?" and the questions get more invasive.

Whenever I mention to a team member that I was interviewing somebody for a position on our team, they always ask: "are they in India?" I had never really wondered why before.

paxys• 4 years ago

I had some friends adopt English names to get from under their caste names. So quite a few Johnsons, Smiths, Matthews, Pauls out there.

There is an interesting history behind this. When Christian missionaries first arrived in India to spread their religion (in the late 1700s/1800s) they were initially unable to make much progress, but then found success among lower caste Indians by promising them a life of equality. So the vast majority of Christian converts in India are from these castes.

kevinmchugh• 4 years ago

NB: "where are you from?" is a question your HR training should already explicitly tell people not to ask candidates. I'm not in HR or management and I still make sure to mention it to new hires before doing my first interview alongside them. National origin is a protected class. Even within the US , "where are you from?" can proxy for a protected class. Race, mostly, or possibly religion.

It's also a question that's very easy to ask in good faith while making small talk, which makes it noticeably dangerous.

sreevisakh6• 4 years ago

In India, yes it does family name is derived from caste.

That is not always correct (but is true in most cases). There are caste-neutral names in India - especially Tamil Nadu. But that itself is a hint about the person's caste, since it is adopted mostly by people of the unprivileged caste.

ummonk27• 4 years ago

Names in some regions of India correlate strongly with caste. Physical appearance can also be somewhat suggestive. There are however regions in India that have given up the use of last names are adopted new last names as a counter to casteism. Diet also tends to be somewhat indicative - in regions without high prevalence of vegetarianism, castes with high ritual status tend to be vegetarian.

A barrier to casteism in the diaspora (and in higher class circles in cosmopolitan cities in India) is that an Indian from one region of India is unlikely to know the last names of Indians from other regions of India. Likewise with diet, many Brahmins from a vegetarian background adopt a non-vegetarian diet so it's really not a useful distinguisher.

FWIW, I haven't perceived any casteism in tech companies, or anyone trying to ask my caste, and I have an ambiguous last name and eat a meat-heavy diet. There's a decent chance my experiences would be different if I worked in less elite tech companies (e.g. Cisco) rather than top startups / FAANGs.

terminal_d• 4 years ago

There are however regions in India that have given up the use of last names are adopted new last names as a counter to casteism.

That's not true afaik. It's usually to cover up cousin marriages.

wobbleblob• 4 years ago

I thought people lose their caste when they cross the "black water".

ummonk27• 4 years ago

Yeah, going by the Smriti and Purana scriptures (which no one really follows), we're all polluted in America.

FlyingSnake7• 4 years ago

There are various caste markers that casteist people use to identify the caste of the other person. Some of them include food preferences, accents (yes Indian languages also have different accents). I have seen that people can be casteist on both ends of a spectrum and it’s really hard to tell what marker of yours will be noted by the other party. I’ve seen that most people these days don’t try to pretend about hiding their caste, especially due to the mainstream anti-casteism movements. I personally don’t give a damn about people guessing my caste based on my rural accent and dietary habits.

Edit: I must add that while I’ve seen discussions around caste privileges, but I’ve never been discriminated against based on my caste. The only discrimination I’ve faced is the standard discrimination against non-white peoples.

paiute• 4 years ago

White americans do this too. Think ozarks. I know plenty of ridiculously smart people from this region, who if they talked about the food they ate or didn't work hard to extinguish their accents would probably not have jobs w/ coastal tech companies.

mcv4• 4 years ago

Food preferences? What if you happen to prefer food from a different caste?

8ytecoder2• 4 years ago

Name is the biggest marker of all. Last name can give away the case pretty accurately. There are certain parts of India that don't use the traditional family name but even in that case, certain first names are more common among certain groups. (I'm pretty sure I have received mild positive discrimination - more like favorable pre-judgement - based on my name.)

savrajsingh2• 4 years ago

In the Sikh way of life, first names are gender-neutral and everyone takes the surname Singh or Kaur (deleting the family last name) to specifically combat caste and gender discrimination. I'm speaking of the ideals of the faith here, I know in practice it's different - caste creeps back in, but the Sikh faith began in the late 1400's as a revolution against caste injustice and discrimination.

spaceman_20208• 4 years ago

But isn’t caste still an issue in Sikhism? The very reason why Congress chose a lower caste Sikh chief ministerial candidate in the recent state elections?

AnimalMuppet• 4 years ago

"Singh" means "Lion", doesn't it? Is there any significance to "Kaur"?

nharmonia• 4 years ago

Interestingly, I grew up in India but have no clue what my caste is. I could probably ask my parents and they'd know but it has never come up. Religion and sub ethnicity came up a lot more often while growing up. Funnily enough the only ones who have ever asked me about my caste were white people.

I had always assumed the caste system was a thing of the past but looking at how it's still present even at companies in other countries, I imagine I just grew up in a bubble.

bergenty4• 4 years ago

I don’t think your experience is unique. Most people in my experience that grew up in Indian cities have very little interaction with caste.

isk517• 4 years ago

Really not surprising considering the size and population of India, but I think the question of real importance is whether you where the one in the bubble or if there are just large bubbles in India were caste is still considered really important.

statguy2• 4 years ago

I am guessing that you are upper caste, which is why it didn't really come up. If you were lower caste it would have been a different story.

pratik661• 4 years ago

Paying people to alter historical genealogy records to hide caste origin was a fairly common practice in India, especially by new kings.

manifestdissent• 4 years ago

As a mixed-race individual, I don't face that question by default in the US. There are enough mixed people in the US that I don't get asked "where are you from." But as soon as they realize I'm half-Indian, they will hunt me down and ask me questions. They'll try to ask me my parent's names etc. (names signify caste)

It's sad behavior. If it helps, here's a comment I wrote about my travels in India that might shed some light on the phenomena;

My travels in India have been revealing.

Caste and class are inextricably linked, and a part of their daily vernacular. They're used as descriptors, "s/he's an X" (as if that means something to me!) And there's a huge coded language with inferences going on. It's a bit like saying, "s/he's jewish". Something that just doesn't happen in the US anymore (unless you're around rather unsavory folks)

It's such a deep part of the milieu that I'm not surprised when I hear stories about it being exported.

True story. I met this Indian woman while working out of the local hipster cafe. We had mutual friends. And ended up going out for lunch.

On the way back, she started asking questions about my background. They grew intensely personal. Until she was interrogating me on the sidewalk.

Unsatisfied with my responses, she just gave up & cut to the chase, "What's your mother's caste?"

Last I checked, she moved to the States and is a contractor for a FAANG.

She's hardly unique though. Indian people cannot stop asking questions. Where are you from? Where were you born? Why's your skin so pale? Where are your parents? What do they do? Where did you go to school? Why aren't you married?

What's worse is that the society is insular. Even in a big city, few people socialize outside of, in descending order of proximity, family > friends of the family > classmates from elementary school > people from their high school > college > (perhaps, sometimes) work.

I have met people who have gone through their entire life without ever meeting someone from a lower social class/caste. Casual greetings with people who clean their homes don't count.

There's a lack of je ne sais quoi. A certain lack of creative energy. A kind of absence of the meeting of free radicals that sparks interesting ideas and art. Culturally, it's as if, the society has submerged itself in halon, determined to not let the sparks of creativity and genius spark.

This problem is so acute that every free radical I've met has done their very best to move away as soon as humanly possible.

thewileyone• 4 years ago

From what I understand, there's a huge ledger of names that is used to identify castes. I've seen great performers never get any promotion and the useless becoming senior managers because of their caste. Pretty vicious.

zeroth325• 4 years ago

lawsuit about alleged casteism

Why is it just not called racism? Introducing new terms kind of derails the problem.

India (and Africa, China, Asia...) has a system where people with lighter skin are consider as "better". People with fair (whiter) skin are considered aristocracy, that never had to work outside on fields.

And castes could not intermarry for couple of thousands of years, it is legitimate to consider them as a race.

_fat_santa• 4 years ago

Why is it just not called racism? Introducing new terms kind of derails the problem.

Casteism is the correct term for this. This isn't a different race of people, it's the same race of people in a different class. I agree with you that there are many similarities between Casteism and Racism, but I think it's good to separate it out.

From what I've learned on the topic, with Racism someone sees the color of your skin and can make assumptions from there. With casteism thought it's more about your family name, as someone from the lowest caste can look like someone from an upper caste.

zeroth325• 4 years ago

Suing tech giant for racism is way more punchy, there are already laws and precedences... Educating people about "racism of a new type" is pretty complicated.

Reductionist approach "skin color"=="race" can be easily debunked. Could white German be ever racist to white Jew?

ChrisRR2• 4 years ago

Just because you don't understand a term, doesn't mean you can just swap it for a term that you do understand.

Go read up on what the caste system is, its history and how it effects life within India. It seems you'll learn something new.

zeroth325• 4 years ago

I understand casteism, I worked with indian devs for two decades. I would suggest you to read what Gandi said about negros. I have a news for you; "brown" people can be racist too. White westerners do not have a monopoly on racism!

JumpCrisscross8• 4 years ago

Why is it just not called racism?

You have a point. But Apple doesn’t want to continuously debate caste vs. race (they’re both social constructs). For statute, it should suffice to incorporate caste as an aspect of race.

rockyj• 4 years ago

Just to spread awareness on how evil and ingrained this system is (this is from yesterday) - https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/jaipur/rajasthan-we...

causi• 4 years ago

Teacher beats their son to death and then offers them three grand. Jesus christ.

hurril• 4 years ago

Ugh, this makes me genuinely... I was going to say sad, but... I don't think I have a word for this.

ketanmaheshwari• 4 years ago

This is a good step forward but wait until Apple realizes that Indians discriminate on many other factors including but not limited to skin color, state of origin, region of origin (North vs South vs NorthEast), mother tongue, religion (Hindu vs Muslim), Political beliefs (Left vs Right).

ausbah• 4 years ago

political beliefs aren't a protected class

peterhadlaw• 4 years ago

They are, legally, in California

zajio1am3• 4 years ago

'protected class' is just legal criterion that varies between jurisdictions. For example, political opinion is protected class in EU.

dymk• 4 years ago

One of these is not like the others.

anoonmoose4• 4 years ago

Political belief should not be a protected class. It's an opinion- everything else you listed, you're born with/can't change that classification (don't want to get into the weirdness of the religion part, but nearly all religious preference can be predicted by geography).

cortesoft3• 4 years ago

Why should only things you can't change be protected?

zajio1am3• 4 years ago

Both religion and national identity are changeable, they are 'just opinions', but both are key historical examples of protected class.

You can say that both are predicted by geography, but must conflicts happen in situations where populations of different identities are mixed in one geography. Then you can say it can be predicted by parents' opinions, but that is true for many other opinions, including political ones.

In some sense, protection of changeable characteristics is more important than protections of non-changeable characteristics, because bullying based on changeable characteristics can be effective to pressure conversions of victims.

And it is question how political opinion is just an expression of deep personal characteristics that are not much changeable and perhaps even partially given by genetics.

ummonk27• 4 years ago

Political belief is legally a protected class in California.

Also, political belief is highly predictable based on demographic information such as geography, race, religion, and sex.

rayiner11• 4 years ago

Have white progressives kicked high caste Indians (which includes most Indian Americans) out of “people of color?”

tptacek2• 4 years ago

Is this an article about white progressivism?

rayiner11• 4 years ago

Any such policy at a California company run by white people is either spearheaded by white progressives, or adopted to appease them, and reflects what they consider acceptable versus unacceptable discrimination.

Ordinarily, discrimination by and between minorities is swept under the rug in such circles. So a policy that views Indians as capable of being oppressors is a significant.

vbezhenar• 4 years ago

But did they explicitly ban slavery?

madeofpalk• 4 years ago

I guess https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Comb...

jmyeet• 4 years ago

This is good. I don't know how effective it will be in practice however since all forms of outlawed discrimination largely end up in the "culture fit" bucket.

"Culture fit" is really insidious. Like many forms of discrimination I don't think it's even necessarily a conscious bias but this absolutely still exists (eg [1]). "Culture fit" is an umbrella for de facto racism, sexism, ageism and classism.

[1] https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/08/18/name-discriminati...

eric4smith• 4 years ago

Reminds me of a passage from the great Jack Vance.

Paraphrasing:

"To construct a society based on caste distinctions, a minimum of two persons is both necessary and sufficient." - Baron Bodissey

flerchin• 4 years ago

California treats ancestry as a protected class, and discrimination by ancestry is illegal. Not being a Desi, I struggle to see how this is not already covered.

xanaxagoras• 4 years ago

Existing laws don't make Apple execs look good

tawaywoah2• 4 years ago

> California treats ancestry as a protected class, and discrimination by ancestry is illegal. Not being a Desi, I struggle to see how this is not already covered.

It is covered, but not enforced because evidence is difficult. Caste discrimination in Silicon Valley is usually about putting someone from a lower caste into an impossible project that is destined to fail, and boom...now you've got your PIP quota ready for the coming season.

The insane cases you hear are the egregious cases that are court-worthy.

lolsal• 4 years ago

It is covered, but not enforced because evidence is difficult. Caste discrimination in Silicon Valley is usually about putting someone from a lower caste into an impossible project that is destined to fail, and boom...now you've got your PIP quota ready for the coming season.

When I hear about insidious things like this it boggles my mind how some people can be so clever in order to be so hurtful. Thanks for educating me.

rconti• 4 years ago

PIP quota? Really?

snickerbockers3• 4 years ago

out of curiosity, how does casteism even work? Is it like racism in that you can look at somebody and usually figure out what caste they are visually?

mlboss• 4 years ago

Skin color is not a good predictor. You can make a guess by last name,

netsharc• 4 years ago

I know one of the identifiers is one's surname, for more detail:

https://www.quora.com/In-India-how-do-you-tell-what-caste-so...

eertami• 4 years ago

I might be missing something obvious, but why doesn't everyone (particularly those living abroad) just change their name to a high caste one?

bergenty4• 4 years ago

Nope, best indicator is the last name.

winReInstall• 4 years ago

In my opinion, companies should produce "challenges" for leading personal, from a sort of internal investigations team, and among them should be corruption challenges, security challenges, nepotism challenges and discrimination challenges.

If you fail them, you get demoted or otherwise restructured.

Of course, this creates a atmosphere of distrust, but some things, like Meritocratic atmosphere, are worth it.

bornfreddy• 4 years ago

Hm. I doubt this would produce meritocracy, more likely the result would be highly political atmosphere where everyone would be covering their actions instead of working.

chrismarlow9• 4 years ago

Do you mean audits? The problem is the incentive to do these things and be honest about them, and not skew metrics to keep the company looking good. Lets say they do these audits will full honesty and find that 50% of the management deserves to be demoted. Do you think that will actually happen and how does this make the company look from a PR perspective?

Third party audits would be the only way to make this work, and again what are the incentives? Security audits are common because the risk is high. Lots of money lost in a lawsuit on behalf of billions/millions of customers. The others not so much, because you would only expect a lawsuit from an individual employee, which your army of corporate lawyers can easily crush.

hk1337• 4 years ago

I could have misread or maybe it was some sort of propaganda but I thought I read somewhere that Silicon Valley's caste discrimination is the inverse of what used to be in India? i.e. the lower castes discriminating against the higher castes.

thematrixturtle2• 4 years ago

Lol no. Brahmins (the highest caste) are wildly overrepresented in IT, in and outside India.

woweoe3• 4 years ago

IT is one of the least casteist sectors within India though.

advisedwang• 4 years ago

In the US, you often see claims of "reverse racism", e.g. around affirmative action or just from general vibes. This is the equivalent - high caste people interpreting attempts at leveling the playing field as if they are being discriminated against.

Manuel_D2• 4 years ago

Let's be clear though, in India these come on the form of explicit quotas. In some states, even if high caste applicants to university got 100% of the non-quota slots, they'd still be underrepresented because so many slots are reserved for caste. It's like if tech companies noticed their share of Asian tech workers was well above the 6% national average, and set a cap of only 4% Asians.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India

adaml_623• 4 years ago

Speaking as a person with zero knowledge of SV and caste discrimination I will make the observation that 'accusations' of discrimination can and are made by people in almost every conceivable group.

So yes you could very easily have read something like that. And more reading would be required for background and context to figure out who's telling the truth in different situations

Slightly off topic I am anticipating discussions and media reports in the next few years where the antipathy between two groups manifests as clear discrimination by both groups towards the other. But if neither group is clearly in a stronger socio-economic then how will we describe and talk about that problem. To be clear I think these situations exist already but I don't think they are being reported in.

ummonk27• 4 years ago

Inverseish caste discrimination does happen in some places in India, where demographically large "lower" castes seize political power and take the spoils and boss around everyone else (both upper castes who're easy to oppress in the name of equality, as well as other lower castes).

But I can't see that happening in Silicon Valley. There's too many Brahmins for other castes to be able to discriminate against them.

duxup3• 4 years ago

I worked at a company where this was an issue at one point (granted this was one situation among a lot of employees). A manager was pretty much dismissive of everything anyone of a lower caste did / wouldn't communicate with them effectively.

HR absolutely struggled with the issue. The HR folks tasked with dealing with discrimination issues largely had spent their time constructing company wide emails and classes that revolved around white folks discriminating against others / concepts of privilege, absolutely froze when faced with a discrimination issue outside that stereotype.

Long story short legal eventually was the brave one and decided that yes it was discrimination and the manager in question was asked to move on. The folks he refused to work with were compensated and their status in the company (pay scale, etc) was corrected.

As one of my Indian college's observed about the manager in question "If he was white this would have been dealt with sooner."

Credit to my Indian coworkers who really pushed this issue with HR and made legal act in the end. They wanted nothing to do with this kind of behavior.

colpabar7• 4 years ago

HR absolutely struggled with the issue. The HR folks tasked with dealing with discrimination issues largely had spent their time constructing company wide emails and classes that revolved around white folks discriminating against others / concepts of privilege, absolutely froze when faced with a discrimination issue outside that stereotype.

Cue the pro DEI (i honestly don’t know what it’s called anymore) people claiming this wasn’t “real DEI”.

gedy• 4 years ago

Maybe "no true Scotsmxn" etc

sirmarksalot• 4 years ago

Not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you arguing that companies shouldn't have DEI initiatives because they didn't help sufficiently in this case? Do you interpret this as evidence that DEI is somehow bad?

pm904• 4 years ago

I don’t think this is some sort of malicious conspiracy or evidence of anti whiteness or whatever. Processes are created for the common case and when there is an uncommon scenario, it is new territory for everyone involved and someone has to be responsible. In most corporate environments, nobody wants to be that person so inaction is generally the norm unless the course of action is straightforward or has precedent.

teakettle426• 4 years ago

It’s a blind spot in DEI and intersectionality; the idea that an oppressed class can also be an oppressor class, and that it’s not an attribute of the perpetrator’s class at all, but in fact, situational and individual.

mikepurvis• 4 years ago

I'd imagine this type of situation could also be especially tricky since both sides of it have _some_ claim to minority/victim status.

Not that it isn't still fairly clear what needs to happen, but it's not hard to imagine how even doing the right thing in the right way for the right reasons could end up spun as if it's a squabble over a prayer room or something, like "clueless white HR department fires productive manager after disrespecting his cultural and religious background. When will they ever learn??"

duxup3• 4 years ago

From what I saw I don't think it was malicious at all either. I think the HR team really just sort of froze for a while and didn't know what to do when faced with something new to them.

The frustrating thing for everyone is that it was an obvious case of discrimination and HR stalled for a long time. I don't want to get into details but it played out more like HR had a playbook that was stupid simple and suddenly the role players weren't what they expected and they didn't act.

Meanwhile everyone knew it was discrimination.

conductr2• 4 years ago

True. This explains maybe the first 5 minutes of the issue. In practice, HR usually leans on Legal for these types of questions. It likely boiled down to “do we want to be sued by a whole team/department because of a bad manager doing unethical thing? Or do we want to get sued by that one manager?” They had to weigh the risk of each since it probably wasn’t clear either way which was the legal thing to do (much like the debates here). They chose wisely in terms of risk and that’s why it came off as “legal’s” choice.

fritztastic• 4 years ago

Most likely they struggled because the legal language in policies was ambiguous on how to handle the situation, therefore opening the room for the manager to pursue action against the company for consequences for their behavior.

It would have been dealt with sooner if the employee was white because (assuming they meant white as in western white skinned person) culturally there isn't an equivalent of caste that would make sense for a white person to act on, and they could have acted based on the other groups listed in the anti-discrimination language.

I think it's good they found a way to go forward with dealing with the manager and compensated the employees. In a visit to India a few years ago I saw a shopkeeper make someone leave the store because of caste, not sure if there are actual laws/regulations about this in place there to simplify the process of handling discrimination. The issue of discrimination is very easy to find anywhere, though, and most often presents in a subtle form of prejudice because many people feel a certain way toward others in another group. Anywhere there aren't enforced laws with legal language that protects a group there will be difficulty dealing with discriminatory practices against said group, because laws have to be specific in the way they are written to allow for their enforcement being simple/easy.

adamsmith1434• 4 years ago

Most likely they struggled because the legal language in policies was ambiguous on how to handle the situation, therefore opening the room for the manager to pursue action against the company for consequences for their behavior.

How? Do you really think their language specified that discrimination could only happen from white people to minorities?

lxxxvi2• 4 years ago

culturally there isn't an equivalent of caste that would make sense for a white person to act on

Sure there is. People from English-speaking countries & Western Europeans vs "Eastern Europeans" and Latinos.

Ignoring for a moment that using the term "Eastern Europe" is itself hugely problematic, though usually because of ignorance not racism, I have worked in one and heard of several examples where there were huge discrepancies in salaries (much more than CoL-related), raises, promotions etc. between native English speakers and people from the CEE region.

There's absolutely a "caste" system among white people in tech. North Americans, UK, NZ, and AUS first, western Europe second, everyone else fifth.

shreyshnaccount• 4 years ago

ironic how discrimination classes kinda discriminated against other minorities by focusing mainly on white people. this has to be a The Office plot line

hintymad2• 4 years ago

Curious, why did HR "struggled with the issue", and why it was a brave thing to decide that it was discrimination? I hope it's not the so-called multiculturalism.

hintymad2• 4 years ago

Not sure why the question, an honest one, got down voted. My assumption was that discrimination is bad, no matter which culture it comes from. So, the HR should investigate or intervene per my assumption. And then per my experience with the western movement, people hesitate to judge other cultures because of the multiculturalism, hence my hope it's not that.

jl62• 4 years ago

In the UK, class and ethnicity and accent intersect to create some similarly “invisible to HR” discrimination situations between people who would otherwise be lumped together as white.

registeredcorn3• 4 years ago

Could you explain what you mean, a bit more?

ZeroGravitas3• 4 years ago

I don't understand how you can be so dismissive of HR talking about discrimination while at the same time praising legal for firing someone for discrimination, and compensating people for being discriminated against.

What would you like HR to do about caste-based discrimination? Apparently not send emails, or mention it in classes? You just want them to go straight to firing?

registeredcorn3• 4 years ago

The commenter was saying that the classes and emails were geared towards evil whites, not caste issues. That is, they had no idea of how to approach the topic because they (probably?) had no idea about what caste is.

ScoobleDoodle• 4 years ago

From parents comment I understand: the emails and classes were apparently only addressing white people who discriminate and did not address cast-based discrimination. HR did nothing about the cast-based discrimination. And so parent is dismissive of HR. Only legal took any action there.

SaltyBackendGuy• 4 years ago

Maybe deal with it the same way you would with any other discrimination situation?

colpabar7• 4 years ago

A lot of people are frustrated because if you ask anyone who works in HR at a company with DEI policies, they would say that they are "committed to diversity and inclusion and helping the oppressed" and whatever else they were trained to say. But given what seems like a textbook example of oppressive discrimination, they throw their hands up and say "well, we don't know what to do because the law says we don't have to do anything." Are we really still supposed to believe they're "committed" to anything other than getting paid?

ummonk27• 4 years ago

"You just want them to go straight to firing?"

Assuming it is clear cut discrimination, yes. Especially when it's a manager doing it.

kazinator• 4 years ago

If he was white this would have been dealt with sooner.

I think that if we more or less accurately map the situation into an analogous one involving the class system among whites in North America, then the "lower caste" white person would not even be working there.

conductr2• 4 years ago

I thought this too. “White” has a lot of gradients in the US

coward123• 4 years ago

I'm a white dude, and had an incident a number of years ago in which a group of Indian contractors basically didn't want to work with me because I was a white dude. Used a number of slang racist terms in my direction. I didn't make a stink about it because I was a consultant just there on a short-term project, but it was memorable. As another commenter suggested, even the whole "white people" branding that happens in social media is comical, given centuries of one white group looking down on another white group. I'm glad to see this kind of social dialog about racism / classism in all of its forms and think it is very worthwhile to realize that it isn't just about the stereotype of white (males) hating on everyone else as is generally portrayed.

O__________O• 4 years ago

Curious, does this include Apple enforcing the policy with contractors, partners, etc — basically any business relationship Apple has a significant leverage over?

Ask because Apple directly and indirectly consumes vast amounts of human labor in India.

If not, has any company of significant size ever successfully made this a policy in India?

woweoe3• 4 years ago

Casteism is generally a smaller problem in urban areas and in South India, so technically casteism is a smaller problem in places like Bengaluru where the IT tech companies are based. A major reason for the issue might be based on the fact that there was a major immigration of upper caste Indians to the US around the time of the Cold War who kept to their old ways.

seaourfreed• 4 years ago

Every tech company should do this. Civil Rights Act Title 7 should cover this. Lawsuits winning should happen to reinforce it.

thankful693• 4 years ago

I would love to have the opportunity to see caste discrimination myself, I swear by god I will get the discriminator fired on the spot, right after making him feel very little. Caste/race discrimination is the dumbest/sickest thing I have ever seen.

londons_explore• 4 years ago

A lot of companies try to make policies against things that ought to be dealt with by law enforcement.

"Did inappropriate things to someone at the Christmas party" being the classic... That sort of thing should be dealt with by the legal system where the accused has the right to a fair trial etc.

Obviously the legal system might need some streamlining to take on the extra workload

LocalH• 4 years ago

The policies are more symbolic than anything, they would signify that the company doesn't condone such behavior. However, I think such policies should, by law, kick in after conviction and appeal processes have finished, when incidents are criminal in nature. If a person is not convicted, these policies should not apply. Too often, they apply upon arrest.

AlexandrB4• 4 years ago

The difference is in the burden of proof. To be convicted in the criminal system the burden is "beyond reasonable doubt". In the civil system it's lower: "preponderance of the evidence". In the eyes of an HR department it's lower still. Theoretically, if you're arrested there's already "probable cause" - i.e. some evidence. It doesn't seem that weird or unreasonable that HR would act at this level. Does it suck if you didn't do anything? Yes. But people get fired for much less reason (or even no reason) all the time.

AlexandrB4• 4 years ago

There are plenty of things that are not illegal that would also not be acceptable in many workplaces. For example: drinking on the job, coming to work without a shirt on, giving everyone a nickname (e.g. "beardy") and exclusively referring to them by such, etc. You don't have a right to a job, so companies can fire you for any of these reasons. It would be weird if committing a misdemeanour or felony on the job meant you would get to keep working until your trial is over, but you could be fired on the spot for having a beer.

40acres2• 4 years ago

Kudos to Apple - I wonder how does this work in practice. Policing discrimination is difficult period, however for better or worse racial and gender discrimination have a visual impact which makes it somewhat easier to identify. From what I've learned there are a lot of niche aspects to caste discrimination and I wonder what sort of guidelines Apple has built internally to monitor this. Does Apple know which caste their employees traditionally belong to?

screye• 4 years ago

I love and hate this.

I like it because it is an objectively good thing. Caste is still a major issue in non-urban lower-middle class communities in India. While you're unlikely to see people from that economic starta at FANG companies (privilege leads to more privilege), you do see these problems arise in tier-2 companies who hire large numbers of vendors and temporary Infosys/IBM consultancy hires.

I hate it because it seems completely mistargetted an almost purposely malicious. I have spent my entire life among tech communities in India and the US, and caste simply never comes up. The type of people who get a job at Apple (FANG-companies) are usually from the far-far upper crust of Indian society that has usually moved past caste as a marker for class. I'm supposed to come from a lower-caste community, and I have NEVER been asked my caste and I have never felt excluded because of it in any Indian community in the US.

The loudest voices in this movement seem to be grifters who have no handle over the nature of discrimination faced by various Indian minority communities in the US or in India. They do not understand the intersectionality of various Indian identities an last and most importantly, they completely ignore new 'caste' systems developing among ethnic-Indian tech communities. The studies they publish are of a pathetic technical quality and the liberal pre-dispositions of the tech community mean that their claims are accepted with very little scrutiny.

I'll try my best to outline some types of discrimination / tribalism / culture-fit preferences and the emerging new caste/class system that I do actually see. (These are anecdotes, and not always 100% true)

1. 2nd vs 1st gen Indians

This is a prominent cultural gap. Survivalist-middle-class systems take a while to shed old perceptions. If your parents fled 'low class India' to give you a first world life, then the new immigrants land on a lower rung in your perceived class hierarchy. Indians are also deeply resentful/insecure about how they're perceived in media, and I suspect 2nd generation 'integrated' Indians feel some shame towards the perpetual faux-pas' of the fresh-off-the-boat immigrants. I have often found it easier to form connections with random white-people than 2nd gen Indians. Took me a while to even figure out what that weird sense of discomfort even was.

2. IIT-ians+ vs local-universities

This is a rising and prominent 1st gen Indian caste system. The ruthless meritocratic mentality of survivalist middle-class systems is directly to blame for this. After 20 years of being told that the IITs are the be-all-end-all of life, it leads to the natural formation of upper tier of Indians in the US. It doesn't help that certain universities like UC Berkeley or UMich are known to reject almost every non-IITian applicant. I personally know non-IITians at FANG companies who felt bullied (whether intentionally or not) as the only person from a small university in India in their group/team.

3. Reservations and the caste systems 2nd wind

This is the most prominent form of REAL caste discrimination that I've seen in the US. India has explicit affirmative action. Being completely blunt, it gives a massive advantage to lower-castes to get into premier Indian universities like IITs (to offset a very real socio-economic handicap). The brutal meritocracy rears it ugly head again as groups who missed out on a big opportunity feel resentful when someone with a significantly lower score gets in. This leads to an inherent bias where groups without affirmative action will not respect someone with a respectable profile on paper because they suspect that the person got in "unfairly". (I am merely commenting on how these perceptions develop. Not making a value judgement 1 way or another.)

Then there are other types of tribalism that are rampant in all communities. Linguistic & regional Nepotism; cultural integration = fluency in English, lack of a thick accent (I'd say even a southern drawl is looked down upon); preference towards in-groups (highly liberal, dress/present a certain way, hiring from alma matter). All of these signal that you come from privilege and have spent long enough among the cultural elites to have adopted their mannerisms.

One caveat is that 'capital-C-Caste' is very much very much an issue within certain parts of India and the nature of it in those situations is horrifying. None of my comments are meant to minimize their experience. Also, the affirmative-action candidates that I met in my time at a decent-indian-university were all incredibly hard working and came from some of most difficult socio-economic conditions that I know of. Massive respect to them and the meritocratic-resentment-driven-discrimination they face is pretty underserved.

Razib Khan (2nd gen American) goes into fantastic detail [1] [2] about the nature of the caste system (or lack thereof) both in the US and India. I would highly recommend that people check out his work/twitter.

[1] https://unherd.com/2022/06/americas-fake-caste-war/

[2] https://unherd.com/2020/09/how-brahmins-lead-the-fight-again...

[3] more here - https://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/caste/

ab_testing• 4 years ago

I think this is a reason why Leetcode style interviews are popular. They remove at least one type of bias of race - the ability to solve coding problems. If you can solve Online Assessment, Phone Assessment and Onsites, you keep moving on to the next round, regardless of your race or ethnicity. It is a way for companies to claim that there is no bias in hiring.

tstrimple• 4 years ago

I don't think this is true at all. People who pass the leetcode can still be passed over for "cultural fit" or they may not even make it to the coding portion of the interview at all.

Zvez2• 4 years ago

well, no. First companies usually have separate interview for 'cultural fit'. Second, the thing with discriminations, they can be quite hidden. The 'leetcode style tasks' can be performed very differently. If I as interviewer don't like you, I can do a lot to make sure you don't pass it. Starting from making question harder to understand and end with plain 'strong not hire' for vague reasons even if you did well.

bradlys• 4 years ago

Correct. Seen this exact scenario and opposites.

In the end - many companies aren’t super rigorous about whether your code that was written passes a test suite and compiled correctly.

I’ve known a few (token) people who have said that they were able to just “talk their way out of having to do leetcode” when presented with the problems. In my personal experience - there’s no way to do that at FAANG and crew if you’re not part of a special group. You either solve all problems asked optimally while not being part of a group the person hates or you don’t pass.

It’s no coincidence that certain races consistently give me leetcode hards as I’m not in their specific group. It’s also no coincidence they still give me a no when I solve the problem optimally when others give me a yes. ;)

lowbloodsugar3• 4 years ago

Yeah. “Cultural fit” is de facto discrimination, but you have absolutely no chance to prove it unless they haven’t been told by their lawyers not be stupid enough to put it in writing.

dixie_land• 4 years ago

Have you seen the discussion boards of Leetcode? It’s all Indians

webmobdev2• 4 years ago

That's because we understand how the system works, and are competitive - it's ingrained in us from childhood how important it is to study and compete and understand the system because there are a billion+ of us and so few opportunities.

adamsmith1434• 4 years ago

This just introduces another type of bias, the "did you just graduate from a top 30 CS school or are you able to spend 6-12 months teaching yourself DS/Algorithms while working full time" bias.

Lots of "Stockholm syndrome" surrounding Leetcode style interviewing practices.

ummonk27• 4 years ago

Or are you smart enough to teach yourself DS/Algorithms in a couple weeks.

therealdrag02• 4 years ago

Which bias would you prefer? Immutable characteristics or those that can be build with hard work and intelligence?

golemotron• 4 years ago

Does employment law in India prohibit caste discrimination? If Apple's policy is more stringent than Indian law it presents interesting challenges in a pan-national workforce, especially with employees and contractors located in India.

mycodebreaks• 4 years ago

Just curious how this can be enforced when there are conflicts. In the US, how can it be proven someone belongs to specific caste.

adamsmark2• 4 years ago

How hard is it to fake being of a higher caste?

shultays• 4 years ago

Surnames are often used for determining caste apparently so as hard as changing your surname

sreevisakh6• 4 years ago

Really hard. There are so many caste markers. Surnames are the least of it. Speaking accent, diet, clothing and several other habits can some among them. Even worse, people who believe in castes are part-time detectives who often do background checks on others. At least, that's the case in India. I don't know how bad it is in the US - but I'm sure there will be some.

adamsmark2• 4 years ago

How hard is it to fake being of a higher caste like Brahmin or Kshatriya?

Since it’s not skin color but your heritage, can’t you falsify this information? Especially if you claim to be from some rural or remote location?

Just how involved would someone try to investigate your background?

kar5pt• 4 years ago

I'm not Indian but my understanding is that you can typically tell someone's caste by their last name. I'd also imagine there'd be a host of cultural information that would be hard to fake, like knowing certain prayers or rituals. Brahmin's are vegetarian, so you'd have to only eat vegetarian at the office to pretend to be one. I even had a friend who told me his sub-caste had their own secret language they spoke.

woweoe3• 4 years ago

It needs to be mentioned that casteism is less of an issue in the major urban areas and in South India. In these places it is possible to grow up and live your entire life without having to deal with caste, and Bengaluru is of the biggest urban areas in South India.

bgdam3• 4 years ago

For the vast majority of Indians, their last name gives away their caste. If not their last name, their way of speech, their place of birth, what they eat. Caste-ism is so ingrained amongst a lot of Indians, that it is the first thing they try to figure out upon meeting another Indian. It's pretty hard to hide, unless you belong to the small minority of people whose habits and name don't give away their caste.

bergenty4• 4 years ago

It’s about as hard as someone from Alabama trying to pass as someone that grew up in New York. It’s not super hard but people will probably eventually find out.

karaterobot• 4 years ago

It's kind of wild that it took so long, but this is great news and I hope others follow suit.

illuminati1911• 4 years ago

”Recently, talking about the incident to the New Yorker, Tanuja said, "A number of e-mails got sent to my VP, to the head of HR, to our chief diversity officer, to our CEO directly, claiming that the talk was creating a hostile workplace, that people felt unsafe, that the speaker was not qualified to speak on the topic and several other allegations." She also claimed that in tech companies, including Google, discrimination based on caste was rife and that tech company needed to talk about it.”

Congratulations America. Now the ”felt unsafe”, ”hostile environment” etc. woke newspeak is used to protect the asses of the people who want to discriminate while victims get smoked out by these useless clowns that are called ”diversity officers”.

numbers• 4 years ago

who's the victim here?

sreevisakh6• 4 years ago

Accusations of victimization is a widely used strategy to deflect discussion of caste discrimination. And one common tool for that is the caste reservation system in India.

googlryas3• 4 years ago

I wonder if we should coin the term "Brahmin fragility" - I assume this same behavior, if demonstrated by white people, would be labeled as "white fragility".

ZoomerCretin• 4 years ago

”felt unsafe”, ”hostile environment” etc. woke newspeak

Were these terms not in use 40 years ago? I'd think these two terms don't fall under whatever "woke newspeak" is understood to mean these days.

raxxorraxor3• 4 years ago

Those certainly existed. But they don't say much on their own. What is considered hostile or unsafe is very subjective.

For some people direct language is hostile but for others don't feel taken serious by reserved expressions that evade a point. It often far more depends on the disposition if it is received as hostile or not.

I believe the criticism of woke refers to the certainty of declaring terms as intrinsically hostile. Blacklists or Gimp come to mind. But it is just a lack of understanding that criticise these words and try to change them. I think the vanity of those complying here is hostile and that they lack integrity and this is a problem in our industry. The same lack of integrity will have of course more significant negative effects than not using certain terms.

everforward• 4 years ago

They likely were, but with different connotations. They're now applied to much less dramatic circumstances.

E.g. the dictionary definition of "safe" (because "unsafe" is basically "not safe") is:

protected from or not exposed to danger or risk; not likely to be harmed or lost

I would be hard-pressed to find a reasonable way that someone giving a talk on castes would expose the listeners to danger, risk or harm other than perhaps feeling a bit uncomfortable. I don't think feeling a bit uncomfortable would qualify as a danger, risk or harm 40 years ago.

Likewise, I don't think having a civil talk about discrimination is "hostile". It's uncomfortable, sure, but I don't think that rises to the level of unfriendliness or antagonism (unless they're publicly shaming individuals or something like that).

I don't care for the term "woke newspeak" because it tends to invoke people who are mocking the underlying feelings. People are welcome to feel however they want, and I respect that. I do think it undermines their own goals however, because it reads as hyperbole to me, which leads to wondering if hyperbole is used so heavily in other statements they make. A "Boy Who Cried Wolf" situation, if you will.

What I don't care for is diluting linguistic terms in an effort to create parallels with people in much worse situations. To me, calling this "unsafe" or "hostile" detracts from the experiences of people who are genuinely unsafe or experience hostility, e.g. domestic abuse victims, or victims of discrimination.

pm904• 4 years ago

This is a good first step.

Anti racism/casteism is a cat and mouse game though. The only thing Im certain of is the rabid caste discriminators will develop some sort of coded language to keep discriminating without being caught.

My point is that we can never call this process done. Unfortunately the situation will evolve and so will our strategies to deal with it.

Ultimately we must uphold our commitment to liberal principles (I mean liberal in the sense of classical, not American liberalism). The rights of individuals must be protected.

Zvez2• 4 years ago

I wonder is it really necessary to explicitly ban every sort of discrimination? Shouldn't it be simple 'discrimination is not allowed'? Otherwise we will be listing every type of discrimination and revisiting this list every now and then. And it leads to questions like 'is it acceptable to discriminate by boldness if it is not in the list?'

While I agree that such not-so-well-known discriminations should be publically discussed, I feel like 'banning' them one by one is the wrong direction to take.

webmobdev2• 4 years ago

Banning is the way to discourage it, and make people aware of the discrimination. How else do you propose we educate, spread awareness and discourage the act? Would you take something seriously if it wasn't banned and had consequences if you indulged in it? I don't think banning is wrong. But the punishment for it should be ideally mediation and education (with something like 3 or 4 strike rules because unfortunately some people are shit).

naniwaduni2• 4 years ago

Cue the ambulance-chasers bringing discrimination lawsuits on behalf of paraplegics alleging discrimination in the field of carrying boxes up and down stairs.

jahewson• 4 years ago

Discrimination is allowed, it’s not even necessarily a negative thing - a company may discriminate against employees who are late, for example. What is not permitted are certain types of discrimination. Those either need to be enumerated or we need to all guess what they are.

TheRealDunkirk• 4 years ago

Great! Now Apple can move on to discriminating against Indians based on their adherence to the current progressive meta, just like at HQ!

sizzle• 4 years ago

Any tech company would be foolish to let caste discrimination go unchecked as a duty to their shareholders, with H1b and India IT outsourcing being dominant.

dang• 4 years ago

Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32464756 - Aug 2022 (95 comments)

Google’s caste-bias problem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32425308 - Aug 2022 (249 comments)

Google cancelled a talk on caste bias - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31593799 - June 2022 (946 comments)

Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30515099 - March 2022 (543 comments)

India’s tech sector reinforces old caste divides - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29994226 - Jan 2022 (5 comments)

The Casteism I See in America and American Tech Companies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29133517 - Nov 2021 (5 comments)

How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26435117 - March 2021 (195 comments)

Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest tech companies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24952698 - Oct 2020 (322 comments)

India’s engineers have thrived in the tech industry. So has its caste system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24923338 - Oct 2020 (6 comments)

How India's ancient caste system is ruining lives in Silicon Valley - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24555492 - Sept 2020 (47 comments)

Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 - Sept 2020 (613 comments)

Silicon Valley Has a Caste Discrimination Problem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24065132 - Aug 2020 (14 comments)

California sues Cisco alleging discrimination based on India’s caste system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 - July 2020 (56 comments)

California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 - July 2020 (592 comments)

Ask HN: There is caste system in the Silicon Valley? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13704504 - Feb 2017 (6 comments)

tunesmith• 4 years ago

I have this impression that casteism can commonly exist in people that are otherwise progressive and non-racist, is that true? I once had a pen-pal that worked for the UN that at some point told me that she viewed the caste system as a "useful way to organize society". I was rather taken aback since that viewpoint didn't seem to comport with my other impressions of her.

tryfinally• 4 years ago

I find it endlessly impressive how people can hold two perfectly opposing viewpoints and never even notice any contradiction. Good reminder to do an occasional review of ideas one considers obvious.

planetsprite• 4 years ago

The same people at the forefront of social justice nowadays would likely be considered unforgivably bigoted had they been raised centuries ago. People end up believing a net sum of their cultural and social influences, even if those influences contradict. It's so easy to imbibe nicely packaged cultural trends that people rarely scrutinize the actual moral makeup of their worldview. This pen-pal likely gathered a progressive and non-racist attitude from the UN's human-rights centered hegemony, and a belief in caste systems from the cultural inertia those old practices still have on Indian society, but never put in the effort to ascertain how those two worldviews contradicted.

mynameishere• 4 years ago

non-racist

There is a fair chance that even low caste members will be brought into a team ahead of non-Indians for managers so-disposed.

AlexandrB4• 4 years ago

I'm sure it happens all the time. I think people have blind spots based on their upbringing or ideology that can make them unaware of their own racism/sexism/casteism/whatever. Being progressive doesn't magically make you immune to this.

kirarpit• 4 years ago

I'm not surprised. Even M.K. Gandhi said the same thing about caste. That without casteism the Indian society would crumble.

Gandhi also slept with his underage niece to test whether he can control his sexual desires after adopting celibacy.

kurupt213• 4 years ago

I don’t understand how this isn’t already illegal

lowbloodsugar3• 4 years ago

Why isn’t caste discrimination already covered by race discrimination laws?

sreevisakh6• 4 years ago

Probably because the perpetrator and victim often belong to the same race. Besides, it's hard even to prove that discrimination occurred. The usual strategy is to put lower caste people in no-win situations and blame them for the failure.

yrgulation2• 4 years ago

Here in europe, we have a large minority called Romany (derogatorily known as Gypsy). An indian people that apparently was a caste in india, migrated to europe some 400 years ago, later on ending up as slaves and then finally getting freed (to a certain extent). Sadly this group of indians is heavily misunderstood and massively discriminated against, and there is little to no effort in understanding their culture or helping them. A shame for a would be “fair” continent that unapologetically continues to discriminate against people based on ethnicity and other petty criteria.

Sources: https://m.timesofindia.com/where-do-gypsies-come-from/articl...

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/story/twin-researches-...

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/genetic-se...

bergenty4• 4 years ago

Pretty sure the Romani were never slaves. Didn’t they always just live on the fringes of society?

yrgulation2• 4 years ago

Unfortunately they were:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania

https://www.europeana.eu/en/blog/roma-slavery-in-romania-a-h...

Also suffered greatly at the policies of Romanian fascist and German nazi governments:

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/genocide-o...

As a result of that they lived on the fringes of society once “freed”. Basically they were not allowed to own land or property and when “employed” they were “paid” in food and accommodation - another form of slavery. Modern day the situation is improving but literally anywhere in europe they travel they are either marginalised or forced to hide their identity. The issue is deeply rooted. It really is an ongoing tragedy that europeans flat-out fail to acknowledge and repair.

EchoReflection• 4 years ago

seems like an odd decision for a company that is pro-slave-labor https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u...

ThinkingAgain• 4 years ago

There are nice short videos which talks about racism and tries to make people less racist. Similarly in India it would be good to develop such short videos so that people can become sensitive on this topic of caste and become a better society.

Example video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDPTVEqkGa4

Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination

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