As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

https://www.economist.com/interactive/briefing/2022/07/09/the-all-conquering-quaver

by samizdis • 4 years ago

341 587 4 years ago

hunglee23• 4 years ago

excellent article, surprisingly nuanced and - I think - fair in its analysis.

The main fear is not that it is a foreign owned app - after all, most people in the countries all over the world are using foreign owned (US) apps - it is because it is the first non-US app used by US citizens which unnerves both the US government and US commentariat.

Whether those fears are justified or not, I suspect US will follow the China's vision of the internet, prioritise national security concerns over freedom of choice, and ultimately ban TikTok

curious_cat_1632• 4 years ago

I hope that the US doesn’t ban TikTok. That would be a very bad outcome for the concept of an open internet.

I do think more regulation are likely in order. There are some very good arguments for not letting children under a certain age to be allowed on the social media platforms. However, the enforcement of those laws is spotty and is left to parental controls.

What we need is an outbreak of social media literacy among the youngest members of society. Like, this needs to be taught at school in first grade or something.

mantas3• 4 years ago

Open internet is already dead.

Now the question is if West defends or is it up for grabs for other countries that already built their own walled gardens.

yellow_postit• 4 years ago

Long have primary education financial and internet literacy been proposed but the pessimist in me sees a low likelihood of US-nationwide adoption of either given the polarization. Ironically due to those exact same issues.

This seems like a classic case that needs some more direct regulatory intervention.

lumost4• 4 years ago

This is effectively demanding an impossible solution to a present problem.

Asking grade school children to weigh the geopolitical consequences of their cat videos is never going to happen. You’re talking about an age group which is still learning basic literacy.

The solution is regulation, we already regulate children's television programming for this exact reason.

hunglee23• 4 years ago

same, I think the argument for open internet can only be made by example. However, there is no domestic political mileage in maintaining that position, vs plenty of political mileage in china bad policy making. He is out of office but we are in the trump timeline

OJFord4• 4 years ago

Is that not already technically the case? It certainly is/was in the UK. And I assure you everyone was using whatever they wanted, including e.g. eBay which probably has more stringently regulated rules.

It's a lot easier to lie about your age on a Facebook sign-up form than to buy drugs or alcohol, and teens will find a way to do the latter if they want to.

aparticulate3• 4 years ago

What we need is an outbreak of social media literacy among the youngest members of society. Like, this needs to be taught at school in first grade or something.

I use TikTok loads and I'm completely onboard with the idea that it's extremely concerning for democracy. Nuanced education doesn't help any more than it would for say, healthy eating advocacy vs fast food industry. We need carrot and stick approaches.

alex_smart2• 4 years ago

The main fear is not that it is a foreign owned app - after all, most people in the countries all over the world are using foreign owned (US) apps - it is because it is the first non-US app used by US citizens which unnerves both the US government and US commentariat

As you can imagine, citizens from other countries are observing this development with great interest.

hunglee23• 4 years ago

we can anticipate - maybe even observe - countries which retain something close to sovereignty make moves in this direction. China obviously, but also Modi's India, and I would also say any version of France, still have the ambition to maintain an independent line

im3w1l• 4 years ago

I never got the feeling that US distrusted EU software.

lmm9• 4 years ago

They definitely ignore and dismiss anything made in the EU. I don't think there's been an overwhelmingly popular app that's forced them to confront the idea of most US citizens using EU software yet.

birdyrooster• 4 years ago

Eventually something China made had to stick, surprising it took this long really.

djbusby2• 4 years ago

A lot of the other Chinese apps were clones. TikTock was a novel improvement to the crap of Twitter and Facebook, etc. And it's algo is(was?) very "good"

Ekaros2• 4 years ago

One has to wonder why none of the big USA based players don't have as good product? From what I have heard there isn't really anything special with the app itself. Ofc, it has reached the critical mass in creators, but it was there for taking...

meowtimemania7• 4 years ago

I would put TikTok in a different category than Twitter/Facebook. I see it as an improvement of Vine.

ThisIsMyAltFace2• 4 years ago

TikTok filled the void left by Vine after it was stupidly allowed to die

tonymet4• 4 years ago

they mention data harvesting and influencing public relations as risks, and both are worrisome . another more subtle but pernicious concern is the trivialization of entertainment (which started from a low bar )

tiktok is addictive and much of the content is low bar , slapstick and sexually suggestive thirst traps .

there may be a good share of high quality content , but we all know time spent is on garbage.

our grandparents said “tv will rot your brain” and we laughed at them, but maybe because we just didn’t notice

tiktok will finish the job

collegeburner• 4 years ago

fr it's scary how i watch ppl on it, they're like zombies. and yeah like half that shit is just girls "dancing" (shaking jiggly parts) in short clothes, like i mean that's fine but watching it all the time isn't healthy. look at how much is under #fakebody which is basically all people in short clothing trying not to get banned. and yeah probably you can make it show interesting stuff but it plays to people's weaker natures.

besides that literally the only reason we need to oppose tiktok is that it's chinese. i'm fine with them manufacturing commodity goods but they should not be providing any cutting-edge tech to us. personally i would like to see the government try to subpoena the tiktok algo from oracle and make it public so anybody can knock it off. that would be some poetic justice against china.

ravenstine3• 4 years ago

It's pretty ironic how a large swath of the public decided it was the right thing to ban anything that's Russian, but somehow it's a no-no to be opposed to an app because it's from the PRC. Not saying that necessarily means that no one should use any Chinese apps, but those against anything Russian really ought not to come to the defense of the PRC.

butterfly771• 4 years ago

Why can you talk about stealing technology so openly?

shikoba3• 4 years ago

Why not do the same with other companies? Do you totally assume that it's just economic war?

chrischen• 4 years ago

This is not tiktok specific. This is pretty much all user generated short form social media content.

Tiktok has just been better at surfacing the content. Also tiktok is more for consumption and less for socializing with friends or acquaintences.

novok• 4 years ago

Imo tiktok is a bit of a mirror. Its a thirst trap for you. For the short time i used it, it quickly started centering around cute/funny pets and science explainer videos. I also doubt it would show thirst traps to the typical straight female user too too.

meowtimemania7• 4 years ago

I think GP's point still stands. There is good content on TikTok, but given the time many users spend, the content isn't a good trade for time. Same could be said for other platforms. Tiktok/youtube worry me most since they seem to be the most addictive for kids.

gardenhedge6• 4 years ago

I hate this argument. Firstly, the content is still on the platform and can be shown to a user at any time for any reason. Over time it could influence what you watch in any way TikTok wants. Secondly, it paints the user as some kind of pervert if they fall into "thirst trap". Men like looking at women - it's not something that needs to be swept under the rug.

jatins• 4 years ago

"Sir the algorithm is correct. It just told me that you are a pervert and I am wholesome."

We truly are living in a computer's world where what AI thinks of us is increasing "the truth". Who has gotten time for nuance.

nindalf2• 4 years ago

This comment follows a pattern common in other comments criticising TikTok - the person says “this content I saw isn’t very good. Why would anyone spend their time watching X?”

sexually suggestive thirst traps

Not realising that only they (and people with similar tastes) are seeing X. And it says more about them than it does about TikTok.

There’s plenty of room for thoughtful critique of TikTok and it’s current/potential impact on society - but this ain’t it. The original article by the economist is much closer.

Drew_• 4 years ago

Yeah people who complain about Tik Tok being filled with X bad thing are spending their time engaging with X bad thing. There's A LOT of really good content on Tik Tok.

tonymet4• 4 years ago

somehow hackernews is full of saints who never check out soft porn on tiktok .

alexashka• 4 years ago

Isn't this exactly what they said about porn?

Last I checked - everyone's doing alright.

tonymet4• 4 years ago

not sure where you are checking by most indicators they aren’t . and we have plenty evidence porn is harmful

npteljes• 4 years ago

What's your definition of alright, and what have you done to check?

If it's the kind of check where you look around, and see that the world goes by - then the same "everyone's doing alright" could be said to dismiss all of history's horrors so far.

mjmsmith3• 4 years ago

I”m open to good-faith criticism of TikTok, but “our authoritarians don’t like an app controlled by their authoritarians” isn’t particularly compelling.

rcpt2• 4 years ago

"the US and PRC are equally authoritarian" isn't particularly compelling either

drno1232• 4 years ago

Sure, since in the last 20 years US invaded Iraq, Afganistan and Lybia while PRC invaded 0 countries.

mjmsmith3• 4 years ago

I didn’t say they were equally authoritarian. But if you’re more concerned about TikTok’s corrosive effect on American democracy than Donald Trump’s and Ted Cruz’s, I’m not sure what to say.

okasaki4• 4 years ago

Indeed, abortion is legal in China[1], the last time a police officer killed someone was in 2019[2] and their incarceration rate is 5x lower[3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_China

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...

xan92• 4 years ago

There is lot of good content creators on TikTok apart from (dancing/singing) ones, the TechTok community is huge , It really depends on what interest the end users have, It's all individual attention driven algorithm that caters to the end user needs based on their likes/dislikes. It's faster to learn if you don't like something it does a good job in not recommending those type of content again. Which I believe Instagram/youtube isn't that great at.

Avamander3• 4 years ago

It's hypertailored compared to YouTube and the likes. When people complain about the content they see, be it terrible DIY hacks or something more bizarre, I can't help but wonder what they've done that TikTok recommends such content to them. After dropping a few hints that it's very tailored a few have gotten a bit embarrassed and stopped complaining.

Interestingly it also separates a lot of the users from the rest, people call them [thing]-toks and crossovers aren't very welcome. Kinda like subreddits, but algorithmic.

nonamenoslogan5• 4 years ago

This has been my experience--once and awhile a new topic will start showing up in my feed, say 1%'r motorcycle clubs or peanut-butter-whisky drinkers. All it takes is a couple "not interested" clicks and poof, back to people showing off vintage computers and HAM radio videos.

winternett11• 4 years ago

The underlying narrative here that most people do not grasp is that each user's experience is different than ours, and their preferences are different too.

If someone else is complaining about their experience, we shouldn't be dismissive of it, it could easily be a real concern based on dark patterns the platform leverages.

For example, the platform can amplify triggering content to someone who exhibits schizophrenic traits, or it can show self harming or depressing content to someone who exhibits bipolar traits.

It's harmful to assume algorithms can't be implemented without flaws, agenda, and human bias... Actually it's willfully ignorant to think that anything inherently made by humans can be made without flaws and bias.

voisin4• 4 years ago

So here’s my tinfoil hat theory. When I watch Tik Tok (and I am fully aware my feed is different from others), I become genuinely happy. I see people singing, creating music together via duets, showing homesteading skills, teaching things they know, telling funny jokes, etc. I never see dangerous challenges, though I am not a teen. Here’s the tinfoil hat theory: Tik Tok is what social media was meant to be, but unlike American social media giants that made their deal with the devil and drive growth via separating and polarizing people, Tik Tok makes people feel like the world isn’t a scary awful place with “them vs us” mentality, and so it poses a threat to our political culture which feeds off division.

All I know is that when I go on Facebook I just see angry boomers being quasi political, when I go on Instagram I am filled with envy, when I go on twitter I feel overwhelmed by the sheer flood of information and vileness, and when I go on Tik Tok I feel happy and a new ambition to pick up the guitar again.

ThalesX3• 4 years ago

TikTok is the only social media app I use anymore. I didn’t even change my default ‘user12345’ account nor have I linked anything to it. I also consume it differently than I used to do the others, by going maybe once per week or two and binge for a couple of hours. It fills me with joy and ideas just as you say.

gardenhedge6• 4 years ago

So what is the social aspect if you're not connected with anyone?

skinnymuch3• 4 years ago

How is it social media then?

nonamenoslogan5• 4 years ago

Me too. I haven't used Facebook since 2010, Twitter since 2016, and I recently closed out my Instagram after using it since 2012ish. Tiktok has almost zero of my info besides my email address, a few videos I've uploaded, and my watching preferences. I'm actually fine with data collection on the location/watching habits/likes--it gives me more relevant content.

mantas3• 4 years ago

US social media amplifies human nature which isn't pretty. Meanwhile CCP's love to building facades of utopias produces this... Utopias are nice till you step out of line and it becomes dystopia, eh?

voisin4• 4 years ago

US social media amplifies human nature which isn't pretty.

If you only consume western media and social networks, this is certainly the conclusion you are led to. But if you observe your surroundings with your own eyes, my experience is that there is a stark contrast with the above quote. I have travelled continuously all over the west for the last five years and I have found people to be kind, generous, and friendly.

There’s money and power in dividing people. I don’t think we are as divided as the news media and social networks would have us believe.

rossdavidh• 4 years ago

I agree that my experience with FB/Twitter vs. TikTok is as you describe. I'm not sure that our political leadership understands how social media work well enough to see what you're describing.

I do think that they are angsty about a foreign government having control over a major social network. Imagine if a partially Chinese-owned company had to make the call of whether or not to ban the account of a sitting US President, for example. Plus, I have zero doubt that the US government requires Microsoft, Facebook, and other US tech companies to give them access to data in extremis, and there's no reason for the US gov't to expect China not to.

gardenhedge6• 4 years ago

I get pissed off at TikTok all the time. Most of the videos are awful. TikTok trends include all the showboating that Instagram has.

stjohnswarts5• 4 years ago

There are some very vile areas of tiktok with white supremacy and lgbqt+ hate and those are as easy to get to as dance videos of chinese algorithm designers see that you're watched one of those, or just randomly throw one up in front of you and see if you immediately kill it or watch it all the way through. This isn't rocket science level of propaganda/and brainwashing.

sumnole5• 4 years ago

I have been on TikTok since release and have never seen any tiktoks of the categories you mention. Can't even find them with a hashtag search.

rcpt2• 4 years ago

Urbanism TikTok comment sections are the absolute worst out of all the apps. Completely made up economics on a level that surpasses FB and I just can't believe how many tankies are in there. The algorithm is the perfect soap to blow filter bubbles with.

Crazy but Twitter has better content when it comes to bike lanes.

nonamenoslogan5• 4 years ago

I completely agree. Another thing I like is that Tiktok is also nearly completely anonymous. I don't see anyone I know on there, showing me their stupid kid videos or telling me about the latest thing they just bought. I see OTHER PEOPLE's kid videos and things they bought and if I don't want to see them, I just scroll on.

dirtyid4• 4 years ago

Tiktok is an extention of lessons learned by Douyin - content that survives crucibles of PRC censorship are wholesome, not divisive (promotes political serenity) and hits the dopamine button just as hard. And if Douyin ecommerce integration is any sign, also wildly profitable. TBH, PRC has absolutely been precient on web moderation in general, i.e. facebook and twitter got the boot when they refused to censor calls of violence post 2009 minority riots. A few years later, western platforms forced to up the moderation game due to violence in the west, incidentally when they tried to get back into PRC market. After building (filtering (read: censorship) tools for western markets that can be transplanted to satisfy PRC legal requirements. Some lessons to learn even if US decides to ban TikTok, don't have to go full douyin/PRC, but going full facebook/twitter/free speech hasn't worked so well either.

ectopod2• 4 years ago

China passed a law a couple of years ago requiring all Chinese companies to give the government live access to their databases. Is TikTok exempt? If not, statements that the government hasn't requested any data are misleading. They don't need to.

micromacrofoot• 4 years ago

bytedance is partially state owned, so there’s zero chance it’s not happening

yorwba2• 4 years ago

TikTok is technically not a Chinese company, so it wouldn't be affected by such a law. But I haven't read the law and don't know how accurate your summary of it is. Do you have a link?

dqpb3• 4 years ago

TikTok is technically not a Chinese company

I guess the economist has it wrong then:

As the first consumer-facing app from China to take off in the West, TikTok is a source of pride in Beijing. But the app’s Chinese ownership makes politicians elsewhere uneasy about its tightening grip on their citizens’ attention

ectopod2• 4 years ago

https://harrisbricken.com/chinalawblog/chinas-new-cybersecur...

vineyardmike6• 4 years ago

When I interviewed for a job at TikTok (SV office) the interviewer worked at byte dance and was in China.

Absolutely zero separation between Chinese and American business regardless of what they claim.

dqpb3• 4 years ago

Besides which, it’s routine for China to rip off and ban foreign businesses.

meowtimemania7• 4 years ago

Is there any type of due process for when the Chinese government accesses data? Like do they need some court order? Or can a government official just go browse the databases for fun?

vorpalhex• 4 years ago

There is as much due process for your data in China as there are for Muslim Uighers being thrown into camps: none.

api2• 4 years ago

Even if TikTik claims to be exempt I would not believe it.

I would also assume that US police and intelligence have access to Facebook, Google, etc. regardless of what anyone says.

End to end encrypted or it is not private. No exceptions.

trasz12• 4 years ago

China passed a law a couple of years ago requiring all Chinese companies to give the government live access to their databases.

Yeah, just like US. TikTok isn't any different from, say, YouTube in this regard.

ThisIsMyAltFace2• 4 years ago

This is just 100% untrue

stjohnswarts5• 4 years ago

The FCC commissioner just point out there is no firewall between Chinese engineers from rifling through and copying all the data from the “USA based” servers. It defies belief that anyone thinks that the CCP isn't doing exactly that lol and building up dossiers on every TikTok member. For example just find all the MAGA leaning people and try to convert them over to CCP terrorist cells. I mean I'm not a CIA analyst, but this is global espionage 101

Smithalicious2• 4 years ago

Make America Great Again conservative "China virus" people are very much not aligned with Chinese communist party terrorist cells, and I don't see how anyone could believe they are unless you mentally lump everybody you don't like into a single bucket.

199X• 4 years ago

USA did the same in the name of anti-terrorism, after (possibly) blowing up their own twin towers. If I were an USA citizen I rather give my information to a Chinese company than to a USA company, since at least the Chinese can't raid me if they don't like me.

winternett11• 4 years ago

I don't think it's the privacy issues that will defeat TikTok, I think it's the deception of a success economy being possible on the platform.

In the past few weeks I've been observing a lot of marginal content trending on the platform which indicates to me that a lot of the more quality posters aren't posting new content.

The minute quality creators leave a platform is the minute it dies. TikTok has not really been rewarding creators fairly, and pushes the idea that organic growth is possible, and that people have become really successful, but many creators realize after months of working for little to no reward that it's a false narrative.

There are billions of accounts on these platforms yes, but the main question is are they actively posting, engaged, and satisfied? The answer is most likely no, and that's why Twitter didn't sell fast too.

I wrote about this issue just earlier today -

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32046338

okasaki4• 4 years ago

"Economy"? What "economy" is ByteDance promising?

analyst74• 4 years ago

For successful YouTubers, the money coming from YT is actually not their primary income, one YouTuber publically said YT payout is ~1/4 of their total revenue. Their other main sources of revenue includes brand deals, affiliates, product/merc sales and direct donation.

Tiktokers are generally following YouTuber model in how they monetize their content, minus Ads revenue share.

winternett11• 4 years ago

If Microsoft said "Come work for us every day for free, you may get brand deals!"

Would anyone with talent, skills, and self respect jump to do it?

Working for free at a large and quite profitable company?

The problem is that because of how perception can be manipulated on social platforms based on that success illusion. It makes people think that the success comes just for creating simple content, and trumps one's ability to prioritize making money to do real world things like paying rent and for food. It's borderline exploitation of children, who often over expose themselves just for likes, and that is going to be bad for their future prospects in being taken seriously when they want to get real world and respectable jobs.

It's free work with little reward. The brand deals go to celebrity creators, NOT to normal creators, while the platform profits massively and underpays most everyone who does the real work. Most of the influencers on these platforms find that even the popularity they gain fades quickly in the real world, especially as the platforms begin to decline in popularity as well, and the minute they stop working hard for free.

We need to stop fooling ourselves about it all.

jacooper• 4 years ago

The minute quality creators leave a platform is the minute it dies. TikTok has not really been rewarding creators fairly, and pushes the idea that organic growth is possible, and that people have become really successful, but many creators realize after months of working for little to no reward that it's a false narrative.

I heard the opposite story from 2 creators in my local language.

Their growth on Tiktok is crazy, one got a million followers in less than a year, this is almost impossible in YouTube or Any Facebook based social media, also the amount of interaction and views on videos is amazing compared to YouTube.

Its why many are going to tiktok, even if they don't like the Platform, its actually possible to reach people, while on other platforms such as Instagram, you have to pay to reach even half of your followers.

CommitSyn2• 4 years ago

Now that YouTube has shorts I wonder how many creators are switching. Part of the reason you can get so many followers on TikTok is the video length. When it started you could only post a 15-second video. Later on they allowed you to link 15-second videos up to a minute in length. Then it was 3 minutes, and in February they changed the maximum video time to 10 minutes.[1]

Viewers can watch a lot more 15-second or 1-minute videos than 10-minute videos. If 5-10 minute videos start becoming popular, expect the reach new creators can get to drop drastically.

1. https://screenrant.com/tiktok-videos-minimum-maximum-length-...

quest88• 4 years ago

What does one million followers mean though? Who cares about that unless you can monetize. Teens can’t monetize so their social capital is views.

1337biz• 4 years ago

I noticed a similar narrative and noticed it even first hand on some accounts I am following on Instagram which only recently started moving to TikTok. The growth is insane. Comedians with something like 10k followers on Instagram getting 1-2m views on their TikToks in their first few vids. But they are fully adjusting to the TikTok format and dynamic.

On instagram I am increasingly seeing ads for popular sports and music stars - which I would suspect could be triggered by unsatisfying reach or growth for them and Instagram cutting down even more on free exposure.

If TikTok can sustain a mechanism that boosts new creators it will be golden for a long time. Organic growth seems to be dead for Instagram and YouTube unless someone puts in 10x the effort than for TikTok.

dburflzz3• 4 years ago

How do users know that those followers are human?

mikhmha• 4 years ago

I think TikTok will stay for a while but you are onto something regarding the deception. An issue with TikTok is that the shelf-life of its content-creators is pretty short. Usually they hit it big with 1 video that gets picked up by the algorithm. And then all their subsequent videos are them trying to recapture that lightning. You can keep it going for a bit and develop a decent following but eventually it gets boring.

How do most users interact with TikTok? through the FYP (for you page) which is the algo curated feed that you can endlessly scroll through. From my observations - FYP starts out by showing you content from creators in your geolocation (drains so much battery cuz it loves to use location services). From there it will try to associate you with trending hashtags in content you are more likely engage with. Most important engagement metric is watch-time. So if you complain that your tiktok is full of porn/horny content then you probably have high watch-time in these areas. It will alternate between showing you vids of high user engagement (1M+), medium engagement (<1M) and low engagement (<1K) in the trending hastags/topics it associates with you.

So the content and trends move very fast. Eventually your schtick gets old.

winternett11• 4 years ago

Not everyone is cut out to be an entertainer. That quickly becomes apparent when scrolling through TikTok, but it's good at pushing endless encouragement, tips, and other hype that keeps people believing they can be famous for sharing their personal life details. If I was a parent, this would worry me terribly, because children are so impressionable.... But even grown adults overshare on the app frequently...

Not everyone is meant to be an entertainer, but now pretty much everyone invested in social media operates as if a camera is constantly on them.. This ego-centric self-esteem-influenced social media "influencer model" drives even terrible things now too, like school shootings and personal harm.

moneywoes2• 4 years ago

Isn't TiKTok doing a better job than incumbents like Twitter, IG?

crmd• 4 years ago

85% of US teenagers use tiktok. That's 85% of the future generation of US senators, Cabinet members, and Supreme Court justices, of police chiefs, civil rights activists, mayors, CEOs, etc. in their bedrooms right now consuming content curated by, and filming their lives and that of their friends, and uploading the video to data centers, that are controlled by a strategic adversary of the United States. This is, to put it lightly, a huge national security risk.

lumost4• 4 years ago

In what world does it make sense to allow a country who blocks access to their market unrestricted access to the US market?

If china is a rival to the US, why do they have one of the most favorable trade deals?

sudosysgen3• 4 years ago

Because it's not true that they have unrestricted access to the US market, see Huawei, ZTE, etc...

And it's not true they have one of the most favourable trade deals, many tariffs are still in effect.

gampleman• 4 years ago

One of these countries spent a century preaching to the world the benefits of free trade, the other ridding itself of the capitalist class. So the issue from the point of view of the rest of the world is that the US should practice what they preach even in the one case where that would mean allowing some mild competition to their massive and insanely profitable internet monopolies.

SkinTaco• 4 years ago

If china is a rival to the US, why do they have one of the most favorable trade deals?

I don't have an answer for you, but when you rephrase the point you're getting at it's easy to see there are plenty of valid reasons, because this is not true:

There are no reasons for the US to give a favorable trade deal to a country that is otherwise a rival

paulcole2• 4 years ago

A world where we want $29 microwaves and iPhones produced 24/7 and delivered to our doorstep. People in America need China in order to keep living the lives we have.

tchalla• 4 years ago

In the world where US controls the petrodollar system. That world.

meowtimemania7• 4 years ago

should be edited to be: 85% of future generation will open tiktok at least once this month

airza• 4 years ago

The invisible comparison you seem to be making here is to Facebook or Twitter, companies which also do not seem to have my best interests in mind.

wslh• 4 years ago

In a scifi tone, it is interesting to extrapolate the personality of teenagers once they take roles in future governments.

throwaway4good3• 4 years ago

TikTok's data centers are in the US.

Quillbert182• 4 years ago

That doesn’t mean China can’t access the data, and we have no guarantees that there aren’t copies of all that data in China.

dijit5• 4 years ago

This might sound like a fallacious argument; but do you think the same about Europeans who consume almost exclusively US media and interact almost exclusively with US social media platforms?

The US (famously) does not have Allies, only temporary allegiances.

If you're discussing ties to government, Twitter and Facebook have members on their boards publicly who are sitting and/or former members of government including, at least in facebooks case: Robert Kimmitt (who was United States Ambassador to Germany from 1991 to 1993, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs from 1989 to 1991, General Counsel of the U.S. Department of the Treasury from 1985 to 1987, and National Security Council Executive Secretary and General Counsel from 1983 to 1985).

Is it different rules for us in Europe? or are you suggesting that we should never have allowed this to happen?

tl;dr: Why is US/China much different from EU/US or US/Japan (whom also makes a resounding impact on our technology and strongly affects our culture in the west).

dymk• 4 years ago

Yes, US/China relations are pretty distinct from US/EU relations.

OJFord4• 4 years ago

We won't really find out until there's a big European social media platform or whatever - I agree with you it's weird, but the obvious response (and you've received it) is along the lines of conjecturing that they wouldn't worry about UK-Tok, Têtebook, or Deutschezon. Maybe that's right. It'd be fun to find out. (Also for other reasons, come on, what's going on that there isn't really even one to name?)

threatofrain• 4 years ago

Europeans are free to quantify the threat which the US poses to European geopolitical concerns, and many European countries have decided to avoid AWS for such reasons.

The US, similarly, ought be free to feel that EU is not the same as China, and allow a different economic relationship with the EU than with China. The US is currently amicable with the EU and is thus willing to treat the EU very differently than with China.

throwaway4good3• 4 years ago

The US interference and surveillance in the EU is well-documented and at a massive scale. The Chinese ditto is much smaller though the media attention much bigger.

Hopefully non-US tech finally will lead to reasonable regulation: Storage of citizen's data on national ground and protection against arbitrary surveillance by foreign governments whether perceived friend or for.

Unfortunately the push to simply ban anything Chinese is strong as it has massive commercial interest of old US-tech (Facebook, Google) behind it. But it is not in our (Europeans) interest and I hope our politicians can resist.

ConstantVigil• 4 years ago

Not the person you are asking, but I think I have a point that can help shed some light on the matter. I'm going to be speaking from the Canadian side of things, and so I'll be saying 'We' a lot due to the US and Canada tending to trade alike in a lot of ways AFAIK.

Ultimately, it all boils down to known trajectories. The EU and other places in the general area such as the UK, are all known to have histories of their own no doubt. Not just good histories, but bad as well. We trade with Germany, despite WWII. We trade with middle eastern countries, despite having many beliefs and ideologies and laws that are not exactly loved by all to put it lightly. We trade with even out economic adversaries because why not. Cheap labor, etc.

In all of these cases where we trade with any one of these places that someone could make some argument or another that they would be undesirable trade partners for; the future trajectory of that nation is what is the key point of where the decision is based off of to keep trading, or go with sanctions, etc and so forth.

The key to understanding this as I do, is the basis of Canada still trading with China when USA decides not to, or to restrict trade, etc and so forth. This is because our government for the past while now has decided that they wanted to help China get out of its economic slump from the past decades. And so of course since America tends to be a bit hawkish around working with communism in any form, while Canada has more socialist roots established; we tend to be more willing to work with such nations than America tends to. (And this absolutely sometimes pisses them off, government wise so to speak. And the nationalist types...)

Now in the past, most of this would have been water under the bridge, and nothing to be concerned about. Trade is trade, nothing more, nothing less; usually.

But with the advent of all of this digital revolution we are going through, and politics being stuck into everything that has a usable screen; the end result is stuff like this where countries with histories of X thing that Y government doesn't like automatically get extra scrutinized.

Especially when those countries have active militaries that support that kind of regime in said country. Doubly so when that country is in support of those militaries. One might say militia instead, but I fail to see the difference once they own navy vessels. I think this should be a fair opinion on the matter.

Anyways, right or wrong on the military/militia part as I may be, the end point is that we are seeing a rise in more extreme behavior in that country, in this case China and Russia lately; and so it only makes sense to be even more scrutinizing of anything to do with them.

Literally anything, since again; politics is in everything now.

Even us in Canada are starting to pull back from China, even though we are doing it at a slower rate. Our government is trying very hard to basically only enact these kinds of retracting changes only when it is going to hurt their future election outlook the least; or hurts their opponents outlook the most.

As for an example of this in action; Huawei 5G networks are effectively banned in Canada now. It took a while to come into fruition, but it finally happened. Whether or not they were right or wrong to do so is not my hill to fight on right now, but it is a great example of them biding their time til the last moment.

beebmam2• 4 years ago

The Chinese government owns all of its businesses. In the US/EU, businesses are independently owned by private individuals.

bluepizza3• 4 years ago

The US (famously) does not have Allies, only temporary allegiances.

Far from me to defend American imperialism, but this is not true, is it? The USA has a decent list of long standing alliances, that include a variety of countries: Japan, Australia, Canada, UK, South Korea, among others.

ardit33• 4 years ago

"The US (famously) does not have Allies, only temporary allegiances."

What? Are you a troll or just a cpp bot?

NATO is an alliance, and also the US has many other defense pacts. (AUS, and more). Those are not temporary allegiances (if you call 70 years 'temporary' then you are either trolling or just delusional).

jokethrowaway• 4 years ago

The US feels too incompetent to try to manipulate other countries and it feels more like they have a bad culture and they export it to European countries (where kids in half broken and sad schools dream of partying in cool fraternities).

China, on the other hand, sounds perfectly capable and willing of manipulating our society to make it weak and broken, while at the same time forbidding the same content in their land.

I'd argue it even predates tiktok and it could explain why media and politicians are so much worse than 30 years ago. The other explanation is that we got complacent, and all great empires need generational weakness before collapsing.

Probably there's a bit of truth in both.

NicoJuicy• 4 years ago

US has the same stance on the Democratic world like the EU.

As it appears, China actually supported war in Europe. As long as it didn't happen during the games.

So yes, China should be under suspicion a lot more than the US from an European viewpoint.

Ps. I'm from Belgium

ruined• 4 years ago

This might sound like a fallacious argument; but do you think the same about Europeans who consume almost exclusively US media and interact almost exclusively with US social media platforms?

i'm not OP, but yes.

Is it different rules for us in Europe? or are you suggesting that we should never have allowed this to happen?

this should never have been allowed to happen.

the mass collection and storage of video, audio, location data, public and private messages, browsing history, topics of interest, sentiments and mood, social graphs, menstrual status, political leanings, and so on, is a travesty. it is an unprecedented and powerful invasion of personal privacy, and it's happening to every online adult and child around the world, and there is essentially no way to opt out, and no expectation that the collected data will ever be deleted.

if it only scares you when china does it, something's weird.

bigcat123456786• 4 years ago

85% of US teenagers use tiktok. That's 85% of the future generation of US senators, Cabinet members, and Supreme Court justices, of police chiefs, civil rights activists, mayors, CEOs, etc.

What's the basis of social elites are coming uniformly from the population?

I think it's obvious that the social elites in all areas are predominantly from wealthy and affluent families. So the line of thinking of 85% teens corresponding to 85% or some number close elites, is baseless at best, and misleading at worst.

api2• 4 years ago

So say it’s 50%. That’s not much better.

jjeaff2• 4 years ago

Is there reason to believe that the elite use TikTok at disproportionally lower rates than the rest of the population? If anything, it's probably higher.

BuyMyBitcoins2• 4 years ago

I feel like the 15% that do not use TikTok are more likely to be from lower class or impoverished families. Likely because they have limited access to smartphones or electronics of their own.

I’m sure there are “elite” families who strictly forbid their children from using social media, but I suspect this population is very low. In my own anecdotal experience, the most affluent teens had the most access to drugs and things our parents forbade us from having.

yieldcrv• 4 years ago

Because having it all public and on moot’s server in Virginia is so much better

I just can’t make this different enough. I see the difference, just not enough.

HaZeust3• 4 years ago

4chan always served warrants, lol.

sharadov• 4 years ago

The data centers are running on Oracle cloud - which last I checked was a 100% US company, your entire argument is moot.

mikae1• 4 years ago

Or it will be the 15% that takes those positions while the 85% stay glued to TikTok…

dburflzz3• 4 years ago

Because presidents, congresspeople, and justices are not known for wild behavior at all.

djantje• 4 years ago

I think the danger is way more in the addictive part.

It is al interessting, and the users are a nice research group.

But here in the Netherlands, 25% of the young people have the chance to become illiterate (yes become, reading/writing/communication skills dropping after primary and/or high school), part of it is the mobile phone, part of it social status and background.

woodruffw2• 4 years ago

85% of US teenagers would be debased by the poor and foreign morals of James Joyce, if only we could get them to read Ulysses.

shrimp_emoji3• 4 years ago

Something must be done. Oh, wait: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._One_Book_Call...

jimmytucson• 4 years ago

It’s possible that the first generations who read Ulysses were worse off than the ones before—who thought Ulysses was harmful—but still better than the generations now, who don’t read much at all. If today’s next generation spent their time reading literature that was considered obscene 100 years ago, I think we’d all agree they’d be better off than spending 3 hours a day scrolling.

mrtksn2• 4 years ago

I do agree about the risk and that cuts both ways, it's why EU and Russia and other countries are taking some precautions about the US companies and govt access to their citizens data.

On the other hand, TikTok is a result of the stagnant US-made social media platforms. TikTok did innovate and gained its market share fair and square.

As I said it multiple times before, I hope US takes the EU approach, that is, regulating the data access and not the Chinese approach of banning.

US is facing this issue for the first time and it is a touchy topic. But please consider the implications, what happens if each political block chooses the banning/blocking approach? Do you want to live in a world with each country having its own separate internet?

A lot of people are quick to rise the pitchforks and believe in the US superiority but ironically they demand government solution upon free market failure. I was genuinely scared about the future of the internet when the Trump admin tried to force acquisition by US tech giant or App Store ban over TikTok. What a relief when it failed.

BuyMyBitcoins2• 4 years ago

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t TikTok essentially just a more developed version of Vine?

I remember Vines taking off in popularity before it being shut down for a reason I never fully understood.

galaktus• 4 years ago

That's 85% of the future generation of US senators [...]

That is false. Many young people who are material for such position, don't care about tiktok.

nonrandomstring• 4 years ago

huge national security risk

National security is the sum total of the individual earned securities of each citizen, no more or less.

The distortion occurs when "national security" becomes the interests of a business elite, or a political party, or the job security of the security services themselves. We lose focus about what "security" really is.

I agree with your point (as I understand it), but to my knowledge there isn't and never has been a division of national apparatus dedicated to defence of culture, national values, and the sanity of our children from insidious foreign propaganda. And as for direct counter-propaganda we are not allowed to direct psyops internally, at least not with a taxpayer's dollar.

The "disappearance of the perimeter", as understood through the lens of the Huawei debacle is an example of how fast this has materialised and ambushed us in the social media age. But to be honest, I see the same problems with Facebook or US companies filtering and amplifying values.

There isn't an easy answer. There are not enough human resources. There is very little common agreement. Nobody wants to open that can of worms. Doing so would mean going up against powerful businesses and I don't think the IC has the stomach for it or can adapt to the changing threats fast enough.

So we just keep pretending "national security" is limited to industrial espionage by the Chinese or hacking by the Russians and so on.

That's why I think individual Digital Self Defence via education is the only option. It needs baking into the curriculum for age 6 upwards.

jen20• 4 years ago

85% of US teenagers use tiktok. That's 85% of the future generation of US senators, Cabinet members, and Supreme Court justices, of police chiefs, civil rights activists, mayors, CEOs, etc

Are we really sure this follows (even if the numbers are correct)?

Smithalicious2• 4 years ago

But that knife cuts both ways; usage numbers for YouTube internationally are I presume quite similar, and that is content curated by a US company in US datacenters &c.

You cannot have an open free global internet without having it be the case that people will use foreign services. If you do not think that's worth the tradeoff then state clearly what you want: for the internet to be cut up into disjointed silos along geopolitical lines.

codemac• 4 years ago

The "forecast" graph seems a little ... optimistic given the market these days.

Fargoan• 4 years ago

It's been evident from the beginning what it is

unixhero3• 4 years ago

TikTok is an AMAZING platform for original content on just about everything.

rasz• 4 years ago

for reposting copies of original content?

ok1234564• 4 years ago

Most of the content I get is original.

The reality is, Facebook is where content goes to die.

Avamander3• 4 years ago

There's a significant amount of original content on TikTok, so I'm not sure what you've seen exactly, but you might want to scroll past those to see less of them.

unixhero3• 4 years ago

No, wrong. I have never seen any reposted content.

ok1234564• 4 years ago

And that's the reason people use it.

It eats into the consent manufacturing pipeline that the US has carved out and that's the reason they're really worried.

"Military recruitment is down because of TikTok!" No. There are just service members who are showing what it's really like there.

preommr• 4 years ago

really?

So many videos are just reaction videos, or doing trends which are the same concept (e.g. a dance, or challenge) just by different people. There's so much reptition, lots of creators that keep doing the same shtick because that's what gets them views. But it's so much worse than something like youtube where it's something that has to be condensed into a few seconds so it's all very superficial.

winternett11• 4 years ago

So is YouTube... Where probably ~80-90% of TikTok content is repurposed from.

unixhero3• 4 years ago

This is completely wrong

mathverse• 4 years ago

I am really annoyed at how we (EU) and the US treat chinese companies and citizens.

We (europeans and americans) cant do really anything in China, we have essentially no rights and cant really conduct business. Unlike chinese who are pretty much granted all of that when they want to immigrate or conduct business in EU/US.

wizofaus4• 4 years ago

That arrangement seems to be almost entirely to the benefit of the EU/US, as there's little incentive for bright/ motivated Europeans or Americans to move to China, vs significant incentive in the opposite direction.

bgorman• 4 years ago

Google and Meta are the best software companies the US has produced in the last 25 years. These two companies are also largely responsible for driving up wages for SV workers. TikTok could destroy both companies.

strangegecko• 4 years ago

His point isn't mainly about individuals looking for jobs. It's about the economic environment for doing business in a country. You're basically forced to hand over your IP if you want to operate in China, among many other problems.

And btw, the job market for very qualified people in China arguably at least rivals the one in Europe, i.e. you can get better salaries in China than in large parts of Europe.

trasz12• 4 years ago

We (europeans and americans) cant do really anything in China

We - Europeans and pretty much anyone who's not an American - can't do really anything in US.

duxup2• 4 years ago

can't do really anything in US

Can you elaborate?

another_story3• 4 years ago

Pretty sure anyone can form a US company, citizen or not. You definitely cannot form one in China without Party involvement, and depending on the size, even needing to have a full time Party member on staff.

AlchemistCamp• 4 years ago

That’s not remotely true. You can open a Wyoming LLC and be off to the races in under 48 hours and under $100. I personally know people from half a dozen countries who have done so.

Where in the world is more convenient for a foreigner to start and run a business?

duxup2• 4 years ago

Agreed.

If US or EU companies can’t operate similarly in China, I see no reason to allow it the other way.

AlexandrB3• 4 years ago

The idea that when entities from two countries interact we have to apply the norms of the least free country to the interaction seems counterproductive. Are we going to ban Afghani women from driving in the US because US women can't drive there? It seems like a race to the bottom.

vineyardmike6• 4 years ago

Are we going to ban Afghani women from driving in the US because US women can't drive there

If they don’t have a valid international drivers license (presumed because they don’t drive at home) then literally yes we do de facto ban them.

But it’s not about giving the people less rights at home it’s demanding they give us as much rights as we give them. The framing is backwards. Why do we honor their license (for men or women) if they don’t honor ours (incl our women)? Why is it not wrong to demand they treat us as well as we treat them? “If you want America to honor your licenses then you must honor ALL American licenses as equally as America does”

Don’t tolerate intolerance. Don’t play games with bad governments.

Disclaimer: I have no idea what actual Afghani laws around driving look like I’m just using your example.

rr808• 4 years ago

Hugh Hendry talks about this a lot, its not just tech companies but nearly all industries are like that. We allowed China into the WTO and to trade with the world because we expected them to allow us to sell stuff there. They continue to play the game on their rules, and keeping their currency low by flooding the world with its surplus savings, further enriching itself and causing this huge asset boom in the West. Its not fair, he says we should start by putting extra taxes on the investments owned by Chinese government.

tzs• 4 years ago

We (europeans and americans) cant do really anything in China, we have essentially no rights and cant really conduct business.

Sure you can. You just have to conduct your business in China under the same rules that Chinese businesses in China have to follow.

Most countries or pseudo-countries work this way. For example the EU is about to tell US companies conducting business in Europe that they have to use USB-C for device charging ports and impose a bunch of limits on what exclusive feature hardware makers can include on their devices.

But those same rules apply to European businesses operating in the EU and to Chinese companies operating in the EU and to anyone else operating there, so it is fine.

This is one of the reasons international businesses often set things up so that they have separate companies in different countries. You set up BigCorp USA, BigCorp China, and BigCorp Germany as separate companies incorporated in those jurisdictions, with the latter two handling all your Chinese and EU customers respectively.

Same happens with non-tech businesses. If you wanted to open a chain of international bookstores, you'd face all kinds of restrictions on what books you can sell in various countries. A lot of books that would be fine in your San Francisco store might get you in serious trouble if you carried them in Saudi Arabia. But they would also get a Saudi owned bookstore in trouble too, so you aren't being treated differently.

josephcsible4• 4 years ago

You just have to conduct your business in China under the same rules that Chinese businesses in China have to follow.

Isn't one of the rules that foreign companies are required to partner with, and thus share all of their trade secrets with, a domestic Chinese company?

mrkramer• 4 years ago

From the economic point of view TikTok's arrival is more than welcome so Meta's and Alphabet's dominance of digital ad market can be challenged but looking it from US national security point of view it is a disaster. Thanks Jack Dorsey for destroying Vine, now you can let Elon Musk destroy Twitter and your job will be done. Adios Amigo!

dcchambers• 4 years ago

The addictive nature of TikTok scares the shit out of me. It's like the culmination of 20 years of social media research and testing purposely designed to create the most addictive product possible. Such a large percentage of young people use it...it's absolutely terrifying.

Brybry• 4 years ago

I wouldn't worry too much about TikTok's impact on the youth as a population (rather than specific individuals with evidence of actual struggles).

Similar fears were expressed about music corrupting the youth. And TV rotting their brains. And video games turning them into mass murderers.

And yet, even with all the actual addictive poisons generations of youth have imbibed, those youth turned into us and here we are posting on HN.

EamonnMR2• 4 years ago

Are you sure TV didn't rot our brains?

wyre3• 4 years ago

Social media addiction is a very real thing and tiktok does it better than any of its competitors.

winternett11• 4 years ago

Back when we only had TV, we weren't sharing videos of ourselves twerking, crying, and doing illegal, controversial, or questionable things as children with the entire world... Things are different now in many ways.

This drive to post personal content to the entire world (in order to be popular) is pretty harmful, lasts potentially forever, and can be devastating to reputation for children and even adults in years ahead...

erganemic• 4 years ago

I see the view you express here pretty frequently--that older generations have /always/ viewed any new cultural development as a sign of moral/intellectual degradation, and--surprise!--it never really is. I do tend to agree that most fears about the new crop of addictive social media engagement engines is just handwringing, just like it was for TV, or music, or radio, or books.

That being said, just because coffee and methamphetamine have comparable effects on paper doesn't mean that they pose the same level of risk. A difference of degree is still a difference, and at least from my own experiences I'm starting to wonder if the human brain is biologically equipped to handle the addictive overstimulation modern life exposes it to.

winternett11• 4 years ago

It's addictive, based on what I've observed, mainly because of the pandemic we're experiencing... If people were actually able to go out and meet others in real life more and perform live (with less Covid risk) the deceptions on social media effectiveness and celebrity status would be more glaringly obvious... And app usage probably wouldn't be as high as it is.

The platforms have all been highly opportunistic upon captive audiences since the pandemic began, and they probably know their days are numbered I imagine.

togs2• 4 years ago

As a relatively young person, we will be fine--changed subjectively, sure. In the vein of Heidegger: Human + TikTok = TikTokHuman. As we learned from Prohibition, artificially restricting consumer freedom never works. The market does not and should not coddle those who make choices against their interests. Addicts can change, however difficult it may be, if they so choose. On the other hand, if this line of reasoning is incorrect, then we have a serious issue with some very fundamental principles of our extant community.

8bitsrule• 4 years ago

Users’ ... viewing could be moulded by Chinese propagandists.

Not a problem during the decades of Voice of America broadcasts, of course.

aparticulate3• 4 years ago

Strawpoll literally any sample of people in the world if they've heard of VoA, indeed, have ever listened to the radio. Now do the same for TikTok…

You could maybe make a better case for something like Western cultural exports like music and movies. e.g. Like The Beatles with impressive centralised data gathering. Marvel movies, but more addictive.

stjohnswarts5• 4 years ago

Hard to believe that the US government just doesn't cut them off unless they sever all ties with China. Again Trump was a garbage President and dumpster fire of a human being, but he definitely got that right. It's a national security matter at this point.

joeman1000• 4 years ago

It’s a subversive platform. It quickly profiles someone and begins serving them mind-altering content. Content which will change someone’s perception, behaviour and world-view. Part of its power is our new belief in the transcendental nature of ‘the algorithm’. People believe they ‘should’ be viewing the content that TikTok serves to them, so the messages in the content are more potent.

When you put this limbic weapon in the hands of a communist regime, incredibly bad things will happen. Facebook at least had some backlash over manipulating their users mood using their platform. It’s not hard to imagine China attempting some fairly subversive things with TikTok. I would never sign up for it.

AlexandrB3• 4 years ago

Your first paragraph describes Instagram's algorithmic feed or YouTube suggestions just as well. The original sin IMHO is not killing algorithmic feeds in the crib with regulation. I don't get how companies can continue to claim immunity from liability under section 230 when they actively curate user feeds to maximize their commercial interests.

dburflzz3• 4 years ago

One would think the app would be banned at the first attempt.

lizardactivist• 4 years ago

And so does hypocritical accusations.

neonate• 4 years ago

https://archive.ph/f0Rkv

mkl95• 4 years ago

TikTok is the most successful espionage operation of the 21st century so far, and it is based on a simple idea - people will happily give away their data and privacy if you consistently entertain them.

In my opinion the application should be shut down as soon as possible, but there are many lessons to learn from it. And most of them have little to do with technology.

madeofpalk2• 4 years ago

As a non-US, non-Chinese citizen, is there something that makes TikTok espionage and Facebook not? Or is it just "china scary"?

shikoba3• 4 years ago

It is because China is the enemy. When it's Facebook or Google strangely it's never an issue. Moral is always a facade for international economic war. And some people fall for it.

Calvin023• 4 years ago

Yes. China and Russia are the biggest geopolitical threats to the world.

It is surprisingly that simple.

While the US and the western governments have their issues, they are still largely law abiding. China, however, is not. Additionally, under Xi, it has become more authoritarian and more willing to undo the rules based order that has someone kept the world somewhat sane since WWII.

I don’t know why anyone would be afraid to say this.

EamonnMR2• 4 years ago

TikTok's format is more successful at micro targeting and influencing people than Facebook. Other future social media networks will probably work in a similar way and be just as concerning. YouTube is another one that's very good at influencing people. I wonder if video is unsafe at any speed, so to speak...

A spooky example of TikTok-the-emergent-system's ability to influence people at scale. This one gave me pause. https://www.wbur.org/endlessthread/2022/06/03/tiktok-tics

option3• 4 years ago

under which rule would your rather live Western (US) or China. And no, realistically you do not have “your own” choice

justinpowers• 4 years ago

This whole thread is equivalent to two people on opposite sides of the Earth arguing about whether the sun will be rising or setting.

Just go buy some sunscreen already.

sidlls• 4 years ago

I like these kinds of replies that minimize the dangers China presents to the world while implying people concerned about the same are just ignorant xenophobes and racists.

ArrayBoundCheck• 4 years ago

Lets take this silly example.

Lets say apple engineers all have kids who use tiktok and some of the kids or engineers do something shady and someone gets blackmailed. As a consequence apple launches 3months later and in the meantime someone from china launches a killer phone with the same or almost as good tech specs. Sure the apple fans may wait it out but that could be a billion dollars of sales to china that would have went to USA

That's one of the point of espionage. To get a competitive or monetary advantage. If facebook did this to other companies within the states, at least the country isn't losing money

The other would be things used to jail innocent people but for the most part I don't think thats how tiktok is being used

schrectacular• 4 years ago

There is not. And that's why Facebook was banned in China just as uptake was going exponential.

kumarvvr• 4 years ago

The ground truth is simple.

In the US, you can intimidate Facebook and Google.

You can't do that to TikTok.

SMVS• 4 years ago

As an ex FAANG, nothing could be more true. TikTok is just continuing what Silicon Valley started, only they're better at it. Having seen what US tech companies have done with my data, I'd much rather it was in the hands of the Chinese.

oittaa2• 4 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

webmobdev• 4 years ago

TikTok is BigTech too. Chinese BigTech rather than US BigTech. That's a problem for some. As someone who is neither Chinese or American, and with no local alternative to any of the BigTech's service, I am screwed either way. With lax privacy laws and regulations in my country, both American and Chinese BigTech freely abuse our naivety and trust to harvest our personal data.

pfisherman2• 4 years ago

More effective than Facebook or Google? Last I checked they didn’t have their “pixel” or SDK embedded in every web page or mobile app, beaming data back to them.

Not saying that TikTok is benevolent or not a surveillance operation, just that they are not yet as big, insidious, or effective as Facebook or Google.

madeofpalk2• 4 years ago

Last I checked they didn’t have their “pixel” or SDK embedded in every web page or mobile app, beaming data back to them

Oh you might actually be surprised about that one

https://ads.tiktok.com/help/mobile/article?aid=9663

rvz• 4 years ago

Some naively said that it was 'The best thing to have happened to the Internet.' [0] This is an example of a user under the spell of the glorified algorithm that dictates what is seen and unseen.

So given that this [1] is the general capability of what the algorithm can do, it looks like that it is the largest and the most dystopian controlled experiment of the 21st century. Even worse than Facebook.

We have hit a new nadir on screwing with 'users' with this new digital crack / cocaine invention that Bytedance has created.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28135484

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28151067

chaostheory2• 4 years ago

What data are we exactly giving Tiktok? I would agree with it being called a propaganda platform, but I’m not sure about it being a surveillance platform.

groffee• 4 years ago

You can't sign up with just an email, you need third party integration like Twitter, and surprise, you need to give TikTok full access to your account.

Still pretty entertaining though.

jsemrau• 4 years ago

You are likely mistaken. FB/Meta is still the leading data-broker because

(a) they track you even though you are not on their app [1] (b) they own 55% of app downloads in the US [2]

[1] https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9941-how_facebook_tracks_you_on_... [2] https://app.finclout.io/t/b9BbQa4

RONROC• 4 years ago

What people are afraid to say is that the United States arguably has a bad enough rap sheet as China, but still, even with its shortcomings, it's still not China.

And yes, China bad.

colinsane• 4 years ago

it is based on a simple idea - people will happily give away their data and privacy if you consistently entertain them.

there’s the individual-level view, and the state-level view.

i, as an individual, don’t really care if China has my location data or shopping data. what are they going to do with it? they can exert soft power over me: propaganda; distort my worldview a bit.

meanwhile, if my own government has access to this same data, i suffer direct consequences. my odds of getting arrested for nonviolent crime (e.g. political activism; buying drugs online) go way up when my govt surveils me: far less so when it’s a foreign govt doing this.

it doesn’t have so much to do with individuals making foolish tradeoffs over their own interests IMO: the way espionage plays into this is as an alignment gap between individual and state interests.

hellodanylo2• 4 years ago

What if US government makes a (secret) deal with China to get data from them? It might seem unlikely today, but politics can change any time. Data markets can be fairly efficient. Once someone has your data, they can always (re)sell it to the highest bidder.

fardo• 4 years ago

meanwhile, if my own government has access to this same data, i suffer direct consequences. my odds of getting arrested for nonviolent crime (e.g. political activism; buying drugs online) go way up when my govt surveils me

It seems like an error to assume these two forms of surveillance are mutually exclusive.

At any of

the Starbucks you’re using for free wifi
the ISP your endpoint is using for internet access
the data centers in which Tiktok is serving you data
the device on which you didn’t write the OS or any background programs written on it

Presumably anyone with the power and inclination to listen or influence the design of the above can intercept any non-encrypted or not-yet-encrypted data you’re exchanging (and if they’re a state actor, probably get access to whatever information they’d need to perform decryption) - including your government.

bobthepanda• 4 years ago

China doesn't exactly limit its activities to people within its borders. There are reports of Uighurs speaking up who get harassed after fleeing the country and speaking up: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56563449

Five men were charged with stalking and harassing Chinese dissidents in the US, including by seeking to derail the election bid of a congressional candidate: https://www.asiafinancial.com/five-charged-with-harassment-o...

prawn• 4 years ago

I don't use TikTok, but I assume there's also a concern over foreign influence of a nation's voters? Whether you use TikTok or not, that'd be a potential concern. Entire countries could be subtly influenced by supposed algorithms. A finger on the scales or whatever they call it.

I've long wondered if we might (past or future) see a social media company be successful mostly because, in their infancy, they were indirectly funded by intelligence services in exchange for data access. However, I assume as operations scale, it gets harder for that sort of link to stay secret.

mdale• 4 years ago

It's certainly not direct physical violence to citizens of an established world power that is a concern. It's pushing things in one direction or another politically.

See well documented: Intelligence community v.s Trump v.s Facebook v.s Russian propaganda campaign v.s traditional "manufactured concent" of citizen.

How these players interplay is what is at stake.

If helps tremendously if some of the actors are "trying" have enough independent thought and don't suffer too much when they push things in more liberal & egalitarian direction.

nonamenoslogan5• 4 years ago

Having watched a lot of TikTok, I can say they aren't going to get much from the vast majority of that data.

outside1234• 4 years ago

Yes - I uninstalled it from all of our family phones - that was not popular - but no regrets.

alex_smart2• 4 years ago

TikTok is the most successful espionage operation of the 21st century so far

More than FB and Google?

Press X to doubt.

1vuio0pswjnm7• 4 years ago

People will "give away" their data when there are no laws to stop "tech" company intermediaries^1 from collecting it.

Google, Facebook and others collect heaps of data. TikTok is hardly a special case.

1. Like Google and Facebook, TikTok does not author the "content" to which they provide access that serves as the "bait". They sit in between the author and the consumer and collect. The lesson I see here is that intermediaries need to be regulated.

baby2• 4 years ago

I feel like you’ve probably never used tiktok

raxxorraxor• 4 years ago

Problem is that everyone that shares their data will draw everyone in a form of co-dependence as their data will be used for governance and content decisions. Even if there is the at least one obvious difference of some users sharing data and some users not doing so.

I don't think you can close a platform like this again. It won't be the end of civilization either and perhaps another platform will at one day take its place. Arguably the privacy protection for western users are even better if the data doesn't leave China.

barrysteve• 4 years ago

It's so weird Windows never gets mentioned in the privacy discussion. Competing over what people do on the Web and phone apps them might have more economic impact than what MS collects, but MS has a more ingrained view of someone's electronic life via the OS. Deleting TikTok and installing an Adblocker is an order of magnitude easier than switching to Linux or Mac.

gyaru• 4 years ago

In what world is this even true in the age of Facebook and Google?

TikTok might get engagement and device data but that's about it.

I assume this is the classic case of "China Bad" "USA Good" (or less bad because it's not China)

jokoon2• 4 years ago

I'm not a fan of china controlling such a popular app, but at the same time, I don't see how it could be a security risk. I guess in the same way fake news and deceptive political advertising was used on Facebook to elect Trump, for example?

I'm really puzzled by how the US believes in free speech, but when speech comes from another country, it's a security risk. Now I totally get that China can use propaganda for "bad ideologies", but again, isn't propaganda part of free speech?

What this whole thing reveals, is that US likes to influence other countries (with its long history of foreign policy), but is afraid to be influenced by others, so it's a bit hypocritical.

And if it's not hypocritical, it's fair game at worst.

_-david-_5• 4 years ago

Now I totally get that China can use propaganda for "bad ideologies", but again, isn't propaganda part of free speech?

Not coming from a country who considers themselves at war with us.

jokoon2• 4 years ago

At war? Any source for those claims?

It's not a secret China exports a lot of stuff, not sure it would export things to countries it is at war with.

davesque• 4 years ago

I'd be in favor of banning TikTok just so I don't have to see those mind-annihilatingly stupid ads for it on YouTube anymore. And before people comment, I'm seeing ads because I like using the YouTube mobile app.

stevenhuang• 4 years ago

Checkout YouTube Vanced, it's shutdown but latest version still works well. Blocks YouTube ads.

popcalc• 4 years ago

If you're on iOS there are a few "open source" tweaked YouTube ipa's you can sideload. The one I use has adblocking, Premium-free background playing, SponsorBlock and actual mp4 downloading built in. If you have an Apple Developer account, you can sign it once a year. If not, there ways of automating the weekly resigning (look up altstore).

qwertass2• 4 years ago

Totally leaving FB for Tik Tok after seeing all these stupid articles.

sumnole5• 4 years ago

About ready to leave Hacker News with all the anti-globalist and anti-decentralist sentiment I've been seeing.

Valid arguments are grayed out and the top comment is an unfounded "TikTok is the most successful espionage operation of the 21st century". Looks like HN can't break out of its own bubble.

hellodanylo2• 4 years ago

A lot of concerns are focusing on (person) -> (tiktok) -> (CCP) data flow. What about the reverse information flow?

A foreign political party tuning the algorithm to affect public opinions? I think this is even more impactful than data snooping. It's also a lot harder to detect and prevent.

aembleton• 4 years ago

TikTok’s growing role as a news platform has sparked fears that, in the words of Ted Cruz, an American senator, it is “a Trojan horse the Chinese Communist Party can use to influence what Americans see, hear and ultimately think”.

That's about 75% of the way through the article.

EastSmith2• 4 years ago

The solution is simple - ban algorithmic feeds (yes FB and Twitter too). It is the 21st century nicotine.

User23• 4 years ago

It’s telling that China doesn’t permit any major foreign social media.

moneywoes2• 4 years ago

Anyone here looking to build tools for TikTok? Seeing it usurp every other social network so fast has me looking into opportunities

randomsearch• 4 years ago

There’s a lot of political chat on this thread, and usually geopolitical discussions seem to bifurcate into two falsehoods amongst nerds.

The first group seem to be missing the terrible things the US has done to the world. It has had unrivalled military and economic dominance for the best part of a century and it has abused that power. Whether that’s invading countries, organising coups, killing foreign citizens in large numbers via CIA operations, etc etc, America has shown little restraint. I think often folks are not aware of this, because (a) a lot of America’s imperialism doesn’t get much news coverage in the west and (b) the victim countries are often not very interesting or significant to that audience. Only the really obvious events like Iraq get flagged.

And on the other side, there is this tendency to demonise America and defend other countries in order to criticise America. So, ignoring the realities of what China and Russia have done to other countries and their own people. I mean, just look at the eastern block communist countries, or what is going on in Ukraine now, to see how Russia operates. I’m less knowledgeable about China but internally the government has tried to unite the country by eliminating all types of diversity in very disturbing Orwellian ways. Externally it hasn’t found its military feet quite yet, but we can see the use of soft power to cripple countries in a way not dissimilar to western imperialism.

I think what does bother me is that either viewpoint is very black and white, very simplified, and ignores the positive things that those countries do achieve. The truth is the world is complex, it’s a mixed bag, and “America is great” or “America is pure evil” are viewpoints that lack any sense of nuance. I mean, America is not one president or one set of staff or one institution. Its government is multifaceted and can be in public disagreement with itself.

I think the big issue with America is the influence of corporate power, the way capital interacts with democracy, that’s its biggest sin when it comes to geopolitics, that’s where to focus your anger and inquiry.

nswest23• 4 years ago

All this disruption is healthy in a market long thought uncompetitive.

The US market for one, is so tilted in favor of established firms that use their market positions to build moats and buy or crush any upstart competitors and focus all their on attention on lobbying and rent seeking behaviors that the only place for legitimate contenders to appear is from places like China where American firms can't just buy them out of existence.

MetroWind• 4 years ago

I'm a fan of "when you look at a thing, think who benefits from it".

In this case Facebook.

togs2• 4 years ago

The fact is that TikTok is currently superior to other apps in terms of user engagement. As a consumer, I understand that a business simply exists to generate profit, and while I can and do benefit from this pursuit of profit, our relationship remains adversarial; consequently, my allegiance is mercenary. TikTok is the best product, so I use it.

I wonder why U.S. firms pay U.S. senators to loosen data privacy laws, such that they can compete with TikTok. U.S. firms seem to think that the cost changing privacy laws is greater than the cost of paying news outlets to turn public opinion against a business rival.

As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

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