I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

https://www.cesarsotovalero.net/blog/i-am-switching-to-python-and-actually-liking-it.html

469 685 1 year ago

messe• 1 year ago

the Python interpreter is natively integrated in all Unix distros

It's included in the default install of most desktop/server Linux distros (with plenty of exceptions), but I don't believe any of the BSDs ship it in their base system.

IIRC macOS used to have python 2 in its default install, but I vaguely recall that being deprecated and removed at some point. My only Mac is on the other side of the country at the moment, so I can't check myself.

blitzar2• 1 year ago

I dont think python is pre-installed on macOS now. (uv has replaced it for me)

Edit: Unlike older versions of macOS that came with Python 2.7 pre-installed, newer macOS versions (Catalina and later) no longer include Python pre-installed.

oneeyedpigeon2• 1 year ago

macOS dropped PHP recently too—doing a wonderful job of losing all that developer share that Apple was slowly building up.

latexr5• 1 year ago

Technically macOS doesn’t come with Python pre-installed, but it does provide you with a simple path to do it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44580198

The removal was in Monterey. Catalina and its successor Big Sur very much still had it. Catalina was the one that removed 32-bit support.

latexr5• 1 year ago

Python 2 was removed in Monterey 12.3, which was incredibly stupid and disruptive as it caught everyone by surprise. We all knew Apple said they would remove it, but everyone was expecting them to be sensible and do it on a new major OS release, like they did with PHP, not mid-cycle.

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos-release-note...

I wonder if that kerfuffle is why they ended up not removing Ruby and Perl yet, despite the same promise. macOS’ Ruby is around 2.6. Perl I somehow doubt they’ll get to, as it’s such an important part of Unix admin I bet they themselves use it somewhere.

There is still a /usr/bin/python3 which is a shim. When you call it, if you don’t have the Xcode Developer Tools you’ll be asked to install them (it’s a non-scary GUI dialog which takes two clicks) and then you’re set. That is also a few versions behind the cutting edge, but it does get updated sometimes.

WesolyKubeczek2• 1 year ago

I think that by now we shouldn’t take a .0 major release as a sign of what is really going to be present in macOS and what’s not. The OS stabilizes around .4 or so, and in the meantime some deprecated things may get removed, too.

They also have a habit of sometimes add or change some APIs mid-cycle, so you may see requirements for the latest Xcode being a mid-cycle version of the OS. Or how was it with Mac App Store, that not only itself, but the relevant APIs for programs distributed in it appeared in 10.6.4?

icedchai9• 1 year ago

/usr/bin/python3 is showing 3.9.6 on my Sequoia 15.5. That seems... ancient. I'm using 3.13 for all my work and personal projects.

zahlman16• 1 year ago

[Software that was officially EOL and no longer supported by the developer as of January 1, 2020 — even though they went back on that with an emergency patch in April] was removed in [an OS released on October 25, 2021], which was incredibly stupid and disruptive as it caught everyone by surprise [despite the fact that the intent to EOL that software was declared many years ahead of time, and that sunset date already represented an extension of multiple years to the usual release schedule].

I will never understand this.

But then, I've been using Python 3 since 3.2 and my first reaction to that was a sigh of relief, and by the time I updated to 3.4 I was already wondering why everyone else was lagging behind on the switch.

v5v3• 1 year ago

"the second best language for any job"

tim-kt• 1 year ago

Meaning the first best language depends on the job?

stefcoetzee• 1 year ago

Of course :)

bravesoul23• 1 year ago

There are many jobs where the .Net/Java/Go triad would be in the top 3. I lump them together as typed languages that are mainstream, performant, have a GC and a featured library.

eurekin2• 1 year ago

I'm at a java shop. All customer facing apps are in java. Our tools and glue code is mostly in python. Similar for data processing workflows

reedf12• 1 year ago

Python has done a good job of hiding its legacy ugliness (such as __init__, __new__, and similar aberrations), swettening its syntax to accomodate developers with good taste.

What exactly is the problem with __init__ or __new__? @dataclass is very nice syntactic sugar, but are we arguing here that having access to initializer/allocator/constructor dunder methods is "legacy ugliness"? This is the core of pythonic built-in aware python. Bizarre.

wiseowise6• 1 year ago

Bizarre is that you don’t consider it ugly.

Kotlin: constructor is either part of class definition or keyword constructor.

Ruby: initialize

JS: constructor

Python: ______new______, _______init_______

Literally this meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/three-headed-dragon

reedf12• 1 year ago

I had honestly not considered that the author might have been talking about the visual aesthetic of the dunder methods themselves. Honestly that has me a bit stumped; all I can say is that if you don't like underscores, don't pick python.

t435627• 1 year ago

You don't call __init__ directly so the ugliness is limited to the definition which seems fairly minimal to me. It seems to be a naming convention for methods that are not invoked by name anywhere and that's at least informative when you're reading the class definition.

IMO this is less horrendous than e.g. go's insistence that exported functions are indicated by a capital letter - that really affects code using the module not just the definition.

NoboruWataya• 1 year ago

I like that magic method names generally all follow the same form so it's obvious that they are magic methods and not intended to be part of the public API. Whether that form uses double underscores or something else doesn't really matter to me as they are not being called directly.

dncornholio• 1 year ago

I have found to believe that ugly and beautiful are irrelevant. As long as it's doing the job and not cause major headaches. Life is too short to worry about syntax.

timeon• 1 year ago

Can you elaborate bit what is the problem here? Is it shape of the characters or something else?

dumah• 1 year ago

I’m not sure why you’re comparing __new__ to constructors in other languages.

Ruby has the same thing but it’s called ‘new’.

Implementing the type of customization (idiomatically) that __new__ provides in Kotlin and JS isn’t any cleaner.

parentheses• 1 year ago

That's kind of the point. These methods are never meant to be called directly. They're used to desugar.

I think it's fairly short sighted to criticize these. FWIW, I also did that the first time I wrote Python. Other languages that do similar things provide a useful transparency.

__MatrixMan__8• 1 year ago

It's like the bright orange garments that hunters wear, the ugliness is sort of the point. It says "this is a different sort of thing."

guhcampos2• 1 year ago

Some-other-language-user complaining about python ugliness:_____new_____ and _____init_____

Same-other-language-user:

((()))()()()({}{}{{(((())){}}}}{}{}{};;;;();)(;}}}

*not supposed to be correct syntax, it's just a joke

slightwinder3• 1 year ago

As if other language don't have their warts.. Ruby and Javascript for example have hideous syntax, comparing this with some special naming is quite bizarre.

But who cares? It's syntax, it has its purpose.

moffkalast• 1 year ago

I would think the dumber thing is having to create an empty file called __init__.py for a package to register as a package. And relative imports being completely fubar.

mixmastamyk2• 1 year ago

The point is to keep them out of the object namespace, and works well for that.

DrJosiah3• 1 year ago

I mean, it's never been a problem for me in my 26 years of Python, but if it is such a big deal for you, maybe you should consider this: https://gist.github.com/josiahcarlson/39ed816e80108093d585df...

I wrote it in about an hour and a half. It seems to work in Python 3.6 and 3.12. Now you never need to write another double-underscore magic method again.

adw4• 1 year ago

Fewer characters than “initialize” or “constructor”, clearly marked as being “not a normal method”. Python is better here.

dragonwriter9• 1 year ago

If you felt your argument about __new__ and __init__ was valid, you probably would have used the actual names and not hyperbolic exaggerations.

thaumasiotes3• 1 year ago

Probably the system of giving special meaning to what are otherwise ordinary identifiers. __ isn't a reserved keyword in Python or anything. But there's a set of conventions you're supposed to follow when naming methods and attributes, and they're visibly artificial. It would be cleaner to make the features that are a special part of the language definition also a special part of the language syntax instead of running them in indistinguishably with other nonsimilar things.

In C++, if you want to define the binary + operator on a class, you give the class a method with the special name `operator+`. In Python, to do the same thing, you give the class a method with the pseudo-special name `__add__`. You don't think the Python way is worse?

reverius423• 1 year ago

I'm not sure how "operator+" is supposed to be appreciably different from "__add__".

acdha5• 1 year ago

You don't think the Python way is worse?

Have you considered how much familiarity might shape your reaction to the two? Both are specific patterns with arbitrary restrictions which new learners have to internalize, and that’s a fairly advanced task most people won’t hit until they are familiar with the language syntax.

Here’s a counter argument: the Python methods are normal method declarations whereas C++ developers have to learn that “operator=“ means something different than what “operator =“ (or any other assignment statement) would mean, and that this is the only context where you can use those reserved symbols in method names.

To be clear, I don’t think either of these is a big deal - the concepts and usage are harder to learn than the declaration syntax – but I think it’s incredibly easy to conflate familiarity with ease of acquisition for things like this.

kemayo• 1 year ago

Funnily enough, just starting your class method/variable name with __ does do magic things as a pseudo-keyword. Specifically, it mangles the name for callers outside of that class -- `self.__foo` would need to be accessed as `obj._ClassName__foo`. It's python's approach to having private methods, while remaining somewhat ideologically opposed to them existing.

This doesn't apply to the dunder methods, though. They're magically exempt from this magical mangling, so you could call them directly if you wanted. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You don't think the Python way is worse?

They seem about equivalent? I don't see any real reason to pick one or the other, beyond personal preferences.

DrJosiah3• 1 year ago

Not when this can be done: https://gist.github.com/josiahcarlson/39ed816e80108093d585df...

Take a deep breath.

andyjohnson0• 1 year ago

What exactly is the problem with __init__ or __new__? @dataclass is very nice syntactic sugar, but are we arguing here that having access to initializer/allocator/constructor dunder methods is "legacy ugliness"?

My read was that the "ugliness" was in the method naming, and specifically the double underscores, not the availability of the methods themselves.

lenerdenator• 1 year ago

I've been doing Python professionally for a while (~10-ish years in backend web dev and file processing), and while I don't like how exactly the author described dunder methods as "legacy", it's still not a language facility I reach out to often because, well, it's sort of odd coming from a C# background. The author has blog posts about Java, which isn't that different from C#, so maybe that's the reason.

Maybe as I grow to think of the "big picture" architecture-wise with my code, I will start incorporating dunders, but until then...

smcleod• 1 year ago

Python as a language is nice. Python's version and package management is nothing short of a nightmare.

est4• 1 year ago

Python's package management is OK. The main culprit is .so libraries

Think JNI or cgo management.

t435627• 1 year ago

Yes, I've never really understood the complaint about python packaging - building native code is not something that is ever easy to guarantee across multiple distributions and operating systems.

Those native packages can be in any language and require any odd combination of tools to build. Who has truly solved that problem?

RamblingCTO• 1 year ago

I'll throw in BLAS and LAPACK. Fuck, what a nightmare it always has been to get scipy running. I've always ended up with a wild mix of conda and pip installed shit that just wouldn't work.

blurbleblurble6• 1 year ago

It is not okay (maybe uv fixes this?)

jcattle• 1 year ago

Going to be honest: With uv it really isn't that bad anymore. Sure, the whole packaging ecosystem is still really bad, but uv abstracts over most of it. Unless you're doing some really esoteric stuff you'll be just fine.

xyzsparetimexyz• 1 year ago

Using a nix devshell has worked out well for scripts for me so far. I haven't figured out what that workflow is like for larger projects though. I'm not interested in learning Uv

smallerfish3• 1 year ago

There's nothing to learn. Get Claude code to install uv into your devshell and cut over your requirements. 5 minutes.

__MatrixMan__8• 1 year ago

As a nix user, you hardly need to know uv, but you might later need to know how to work together with non-nix-users who use uv. It's easy.

There will be a file: uv.lock You can use uv2nix to get a single nix package for all the project's python dependencies, which you can then add to your devshell like anything else you find in nixpkgs (e.g. right alongside uv itself). It ends up being two or three lines of code to actually get the package, but you can just point a LLM at the uv2nix docs and at your flake.nix and it'll figure them out for you.

Your devshell will then track with changes that other devs make to that project's dependencies. If you want to modify them...

   edit pyproject.toml # package names and versions
   uv lock             # map names and versions to hashes (nix needs hashes, finds them in uv.lock)
   nix flake lock      # update flake.lock based on uv.lock
   nix develop         # now your devshell has it too

This way you're not maintaining separate sources of truth for what the project depends on, and the muggles need not think about your nix wizardy at all.

lazzlazzlazz• 1 year ago

This hasn't really been true for a while now. `uv` has radically improved the experience.

cedws• 1 year ago

There’s still 20 years of projects using everything that became before uv. They didn’t upgrade the moment uv came into existence. Data science-land still uses other rubbish too.

bborud6• 1 year ago

For the last 20 years that has been the mantra. Some X "solves" all the problems.

Except it doesn't. It just creates another X that is popular for a while, and doesn't somehow retroactively "fix" all the chaotic projects that are a nightmare to install and upgrade. Yes, I understand people like Python. Yes, I understand the LLM bros love it. But in a real production environment, for real applications, you still want to avoid it because it isn't particularly easy to create robust systems for industrial use. You may survive if you can contain the madness in a datacenter somewhere and have people babysit it.

timw4mail• 1 year ago

It's like the (usually) interpreted equivalent to C/C++. There are lots of 'standard' package management choices.

And it seems like the package resolution is finally local by default, although that requires a 'virtualenv', which seems to be a legacy of the global packaging system.

__MatrixMan__8• 1 year ago

I expect that for every two python users who know what `pip` is, there are three who are discouraged from thinking about the environment at all. Given that, focusing on the language and not the packaging is the right choice. Packaging is most often somebody else's problem.

It's just HN users are more likely to be that somebody else. Probably we have to deal with non-python dependencies anyway so we're reaching for bigger hammers like docker or nix. It would be nice if there wasn't a mess of python package managers, but whichever one I use ends up being a somewhat unimportant middle-layer anyway.

polotics• 1 year ago

It's funny, I'm the opposite: LLMs have made it easy to draft something in Python, then translate to a more appropriate language for the target problem-domain, for example Go.

brabel3• 1 year ago

Agree . We had training to learn how LLM applications can be developed and it was obviously in Python. Never liked Python but between dependencies issues (the demo project used uv but somehow the author forgot to declare some dependencies which she probably had installed globally) which cost hours of everyone’s time, and the persistent magic going on (pipe operators that do nothing similar to unix pipes, wtf!, puydantic shit just to declare a data type with metadata and lots of things like this) nearly everyone immediately switched to a typed language like Kotlin (they have a nice AI framework) as soon as we got the basics of how things work.

LtWorf• 1 year ago

Is go the language that doesn't include a module to do mmap and doesn't include a module to place binary data into a struct?

If you want to read binary files, you can use C or python, but not go (unless you use segfault prone 3rd party libraries of very dubious quality, of course).

revskill• 1 year ago

So, i don't get it, now i still need to have a uv venv ?

akkad332• 1 year ago

The principle of uv as much as I understand is to not tinker with virtual environments. With commands like uv run, uv sync etc you shouldn't have to worry about the virtual env and whether it's activated etc. if you are in a project, it will automatically pick up the right Python version . However if you want to do something not possible through those commands you can still get down to the virtual env. Plus for auto complete in IDEs you generally need to select the venv

mpeg• 1 year ago

I use this vscode extension called "python envy" that changes venv automatically depending on which folder of a monorepo you are in, it's great! Wish vscode had it built-in

blitzar2• 1 year ago

You install uv not python, you use "uv run <file>" instead of "python <file>", you dont think about anything else.

Vaslo• 1 year ago

If you are working in Data Science/ML its the best bet for handling dependencies in your project compared to the rest of the tools. Its use has exploded, especially because you can do ‘uv pip whatever’ if you insist on using pip.

zahlman16• 1 year ago

There's only one kind of Python virtual environment, and both uv and the standard library `venv` module make them (as does third-party support like `virtualenv`). The differences are in what gets put in them (aside from the actual packages you explicitly install), and in the interface for configuring that. In particular, the standard library defaults to bootstrapping pip, but you can easily skip that. And of course uv does not bootstrap pip, because it does pip's job (and much more).

andrewstuart• 1 year ago

Said with a note of surprise?

Made me think this is probably normally a Ruby developer indoctrinated against Python. The article doesn’t seem to say what they have come from.

drewcoo• 1 year ago

Ruby developer indoctrinated against Python

Ruby devs think about code differently. Like Perl, they embrace TIMTOWTDI.

https://perl.fandom.com/wiki/TIMTOWTDI

Also, there's a pride in writing elegant code as opposed to following "Pythonic" conventions. Excellence is not conformity.

I use Python a lot more often now because it's seen as simpler and more approachable and easier to force compliance. I miss Ruby.

t435627• 1 year ago

IMO "pythonic" is mostly about using the features the language has rather than trying to treat it as if it was Java or C++.

Having said that, in reviews you do get lazy comments like "not pythonic" or "not best practises" which often boil down to the reviewer just not liking something and being too much of an *** to say why. This is supposed to be a total shutdown that you cannot argue with and it's the kind of thing that might put you off the term "pythonic" for life.

"There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."

This is probably the core thing you might have issue with but I think its not really about conforming in how you write your own code but about the thing you make being easy for others to use.

Mawr2• 1 year ago

Like Perl, they embrace TIMTOWTDI.

Yeah, and it's the wrong approach. Of course, you can have whatever preference you want, but in terms of engineering, it's plain wrong.

nijave8• 1 year ago

I only Ruby shop I've ever worked at liberally used Rubocop to undo TIMTOWTDI. I suppose you could _write_ whatever you wanted but Rubocop would pretty aggressively rewrite it.

wiseowise6• 1 year ago

There’s a footnote:

If you know me, you know I used to be mostly a Java/JavaScript/R kind of guy. ↩

riffraff• 1 year ago

It's in the footnotes, they're a java/javascript/R dev.

xandrius• 1 year ago

So, if you don't fancy Python you must be labeled a Ruby developer? Weird take.

bravesoul23• 1 year ago

I like Python for the language, and for a lot of jobs the threading model limitations do not matter. Its a great language to get stuff done. I find the package management story challenging but I will try uv next time!

sudosays• 1 year ago

If you haven't already you should check out uv: https://github.com/astral-sh/uv

It solves a lot of the package management headaches for me.

rich_sasha• 1 year ago

I resisted pipx, poetry, anaconda and probably some other things, as I didn't see the point over venv+pip. But uv is just so damn good, there's no going back.

gjvc• 1 year ago

pipdeptree is all you need for many things, but uv is such a joy to use it's hard to resist, sure.

bootsmann2• 1 year ago

Feel like pipx walked so uv could run, it popularized the idea of abstracting the environment management away from the user.

Roark66• 1 year ago

From what? It would be useful to mention towards the front of the post so we know what is the context in which you approach python.

I've switched to python primarily (from perl) in early 2010s (I think my first "seriously" used version was 2.6. This is mostly for system management, monitoring, and data transformation /visualisation. Nothing fancy like AI back then in a work setting.

I found the biggest impact was not so much on writing code but on it remaining readable for a very long time, even if it was created hastily "just get this working now" style. Especially in a team.

Python is still one of my favourites and the first tool I reach if bash is not enough for what I'm trying to do.

pyman4• 1 year ago

From what I was told, Python was originally seen as a Swiss Army knife for sysadmins. It started gaining more traction when Canonical adopted it as the main language for Ubuntu 4.10 in 2004.

Then, in 2005, Guido van Rossum was hired by Google to work on Google Cloud. That opened the door for wider adoption in academia, since Python had strong math libraries and integrated well with tools researchers were already using, like Hadoop, right around the time big data and ML were starting to take off.

Also, between 2005 and 2006, two important things happened: Ruby on Rails came out and inspired Django, which was starting to gain popularity, and web developers were getting tired of Perl's messy syntax. That's how Python quickly became a solid choice not just for server-side scripts, but for building proper web apps. In the meantime, another language that could be embedded directly into HTML was storming the web: PHP. Its syntax was similar to JavaScript, it was easy to pick up, lowered the barrier to entry for software development, worked straight out of the box, and didn't require thousands of print statements to get things done.

The 3 Ps made history. According to programmers from 20 years ago, they were like religions. Each had its own philosophy and a loyal group of followers crusading online, getting into heated debates, all trying to win over more adopters. The new generation of devs is more pragmatic. These days it's less about language wars and more about picking the right tool for the job.

darkstar_16• 1 year ago

These days it's less about language wars and more about picking the right tool for the job

You should talk to the Java advocates in my company :) The language wars are still around, it's just Java vs the rest now.

pyman4• 1 year ago

One of my colleagues, a retired programmer who spent 20 years at Microsoft, told my students that it used to be Java vs Visual Basic, until Microsoft brought in the big guns, like Anders Hejlsberg. That's when it turned into Java vs .NET, and things really started to heat up :)

tgv• 1 year ago

Python's success is entirely due to entry-level programming courses. They all switched to Python, because you have to explain less. I don't think I heard about web servers in Python before 2012. I suppose a 2005 computer wouldn't be able to serve a Python backend smoothly.

PHP's popularity isn't really from 2005-2006. It was popular at the end of the 90s, and it looks like JS as much as it looks like a potato.

theshrike792• 1 year ago

With python you can just go: 'print "hello, world!"' and that's a full-ass program

You run it by saying `python hello.py`.

Compare that to the amount of crap you need(ed) with 2005 Java just to have something running.

The shittiness of ActivePython and generally getting python to run on Windows were a bit of a hurdle, but still it was easier than the competition

pyman4• 1 year ago

Python's success is entirely due to entry-level programming courses.

Yeah, after 2008. And by 2014, it had overtaken Java in many CS programs. But I was referring to the events that led to that.

stevesimmons2• 1 year ago

I suppose a 2005 computer wouldn't be able to serve a Python backend smoothly.

Python had web servers from 2000, including Jim Fulton's Zope (really a full framework for a content management system) and in 2002 Remi Delon's CherryPy.

Both were useful for their day, well supported by web hosting companies, and certainly very lightweight compared to commercial Java systems that typically needed beefy Sun Solaris servers.

sylens• 1 year ago

In my experience AWS also contributes a lot to this. Boto3 is a great library for interacting with AWS services

wiseowise6• 1 year ago

Python's success is entirely due to entry-level programming courses. They all switched to Python, because you have to explain less.

Nonsense.

I don't think I heard about web servers in Python before 2012.

More nonsense.

I suppose a 2005 computer wouldn't be able to serve a Python backend smoothly.

Extreme nonsense.

https://medium.com/signal-v-noise/ruby-has-been-fast-enough-...

And this is when Python was edging Ruby performance wise.

MoreQARespect• 1 year ago

This is entirely backward. They all started switching when python was already immensely popular after the popularity boosts given by sysadmin, django and numerical/datascience users.

taeric8• 1 year ago

I argue that Python's success was almost entirely due to it not adopting any best practices on dependency management and being installed by default on systems.

Being default installed was almost certainly the larger factor. As evidenced by how much pain it caused people when they started using dependencies that were not stable. They had to add specific support for it to not let you pip install things to the system install.

runjake2• 1 year ago

1. Python was pretty popular well before entry-level programming courses adopted it. I think they adopted Python because it was a good general purpose scripting language, multiplatform, easy to install and get going, that taught programming concepts in a more approachable way for beginners.

2. Python on web servers was a thing long before 2012. You had Zope in 1998 or so, and it was pretty popular for a while, and hugely influential to subsequent web frameworks. Django came out in about 2005. TurboGears, Pylons in about 2005 or so. Flask in 2010... and these are just the more popular frameworks.

3. I think the author meant that PHP was also vaguely C-like in syntax, like JS. Keyword: vaguely. You had a common way of declaring stuff with curly braces and semi-colons.

dragonwriter9• 1 year ago

Python's success is entirely due to entry-level programming courses.

No, entry-level courses were in a mix of Scheme, C, and other languages until Java’s industrial ubiquity ended up in it becoming a popular choice, but not completely displacing the others. Then as Python (along with the broader class of dynamic OO scripting languages) became quite popular, Python got added to the mix, but, unlike Java, it fairly quickly displaced not only Java but a lot of what had been around longer in introductory courses.

Python’s industrial success drove its initial use in introductory courses, but doesn't fully explain it, as it doing what Java never did indicates.

I think the people teaching introductory courses find it less of a compromise to industrial popularity than they did with Java.

Python’s success is multifaceted, some of it is right-place right-time, a lot of it is the ecosystem it built because of that, but a lot of it is, I think, that it turns out to be a language that has been designed (both initially and in how it is been managed over time) to be a very good language for real people solving real problems, despite not adhering to any of what various typing and performance and paradigm purists like to posit as the essential features of a good language.

adw4• 1 year ago

Peak PHP was Facebook around 2008!

JodieBenitez• 1 year ago

I don't think I heard about web servers in Python before 2012

Excuse me but... what ? Django is 20 years old.

alexjplant2• 1 year ago

They all switched to Python, because you have to explain less

I think this could be generalized to ergonomics. Java 1.6 is an absolute nightmare for a newb compared to Python. No top-level statements, explicit typing, boxing, verbose declaration syntax, long import statements, curly braces everywhere... and, most importantly, no out-of-the-box REPL. Java has since made strides and borrowed from Kotlin and Lombok but my understanding is that it was too little too late.

Depending upon preference and application one might consider ~half of these things anti-features at the expense of stability but it speaks volumes to why people join and stay in a software ecosystem. If I had to work on a Python project again I'd use mise with uv and viciously lint the codebase down to a reasonable fully-typed subset of the language devoid of custom decorator magic and dunder abuse.

stevesimmons2• 1 year ago

The key factor imo was Travis Oliphant merging the competing numeric and numarray libraries into numpy in 2005. That quickly became the foundation of Python as the key environment for open source numeric processing.

It brought across a ton of users from R and Matlab.

Pandas, Matplotlib and ScikitLearn then consolidated Python's place as the platform of choice for both academic and commercial ML.

troad2• 1 year ago

According to programmers from 20 years ago, they were like religions. Each had its own philosophy and a loyal group of followers crusading online, getting into heated debates, all trying to win over more adopters.

It's very weird reading something you lived through described in these terms, as though it were being described by an anthropologist.

Can't help but wonder what the future will have to say about today.

"In 2025, programmers used 'frameworks' to hang 'apps' from some kind of 'web'. They believed these frameworks gave them magic powers. Many even fought in 'flame wars' on this topic, which experts believe involved the use of fire to destroy webs woven by competing programmers."

Twirrim2• 1 year ago

The 3 Ps made history. According to programmers from 20 years ago, they were like religions. Each had its own philosophy and a loyal group of followers crusading online, getting into heated debates, all trying to win over more adopters. The new generation of devs is more pragmatic. These days it's less about language wars and more about picking the right tool for the job.

I feel like the religious wars aspects of this is completely overblown. The conversations around languages really hasn't changed all that much in the last 20 years. Look at the way you see things happening in HN, heck even in the comment thread right here. It's the exact same kinds of discussions as happened back 20 years ago, with exactly the same kind of pragmatism.

I think the gulf comes about from the fact that the primary sources are conversations occurring between people that are largely anonymous behind an online handle, interacting with people that aren't face to face. There's always been an element of exaggeration in the interactions. What might be a "Umm, no" with a maybe a shake of the head, becomes "Your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries". Almost every party involved comes to recognise the particular cultural quirks (which varied from forum to forum) and how to translate what was said, to what was actually meant.

adw4• 1 year ago

Python was everywhere in science by earlier than that (Numeric and numarray, Numpy’s predecessors, are from the late 90s/early 2000s).

spiderxxxx• 1 year ago

From what I was told, Python was originally seen as a Swiss Army knife for sysadmins.

Yea, I was a sysadmin around 2000 (before that too) and I knew it as such.

between 2005 and 2006, two important things happened:

Somewhat - I used it in 2001 for Plone which is based on Zope, which was somewhat popular around that time. Writing all the web stuff with Python made sense, since Plone provided a CMS and could include a wiki. Adding on some sql calls to it in python just made sense. The competition was between PHP and Python, though there were some other less popular choices. Ruby on Rails definitely was getting a lot more popular around those times. PHP didn't start getting popular around 2005, if anything, people started using Python more, and started criticizing the crappy code that was circulating in the PHP community.

In any case, it was a fun time, but what's the point of looking back like that?

snapetom• 1 year ago

This aligns with what I remember and Guido going to Google explains things. Mid 2000's was all about PHP (Cake/Symphony/CodeIgniter/etc) vs Ruby (Rails) in the open source world. I remember hearing about Python only in sysadmin work and Plone. Then, suddenly were suddenly a lot of articles from Google about just about everything, all in Python.

I remember saying to a coworker, "Google is single-handedly keeping Python alive."

Then bam. It was everywhere. Mid 2010's, I took a cybersec job and they told me to learn Python in the two weeks between accepting and starting. "Python is all over cybersec," I was told. It was then I realized Python took over academia, which positioned it perfectly for ML. It's features made it easy to start, but it also benefited from right place, right time.

pyman4• 1 year ago

Guido's passion and leadership were the driving force behind Python. A lot of smart people aligned with his vision.

BiteCode_dev3• 1 year ago

I'd say the switch was learning that Google Search was written in Python (remember when error pages URL were in .py ?), and Youtube rewritten in Python. After that, reddit and dropbox followed (and later Instagram).

Apple also added Python in, I think, Mac OS X Jaguar, so it blipped on the radar.

When you have big players using it, the community automatically grows.

Django was the continuity of that and definitely contributed to the growing popularity of Python, but I think the hype started way before (and in fact we had to suffer Zope/Plone/Twisted for it :)).

Another decisive date was circa 2010 when the Belgian book "learn programming with python" came out. Granted, Django was already 5 years old at the time, but it brought many beginners who knew nothing about programming at the time.

t435627• 1 year ago

I'm glad someone else discovered they can like python.

I got forced to learn it for a project where I was proposing Ruby and the customer insisted on Python. This was years ago when Ruby was much slower. I was annoyed but I got used to it and here I am enjoying it many years later.

I take issue with the description and use of make though! :-D What is the point of it if you're not going to use dependencies? One might as well just write a script with a case statement..... I'm adding smileys because I don't mean to be all that serious but I really do think that the failure of the youth of today to get to grips with Make is a sad reflection on our culture....... and get off my lawn, ok? :-)

pphysch• 1 year ago

One might as well just write a script with a case statement.....

I started with this and evolved into simple flat Makefiles, because they're basically the same but Make feels more standard (there's a Makefile here vs. there's a random bash script here).

shmerl3• 1 year ago

Ruby's syntax is much nicer. I just can't stand the idea of using whitespace for scope delimiting.

dapperdrake17• 1 year ago

Ron Garrett noticed that emacs can use "pass" like a closing brace for auto-indenting.

Genius.

pzo2• 1 year ago

I wish python had support for optional braces. Maybe time I copy some snippet or integrate some other project into mine and have to worry if someone using 2 spaces, 4 spaces or tabs.

t435627• 1 year ago

I thought that too....but I did get over it.

I ended up feeling that it removes a lot of (internal) debate about what's the best style for braces that you get in C-like languages.

mixmastamyk2• 1 year ago

I love it, so much more concise and clean without the brace noise.

DataDaoDe2• 1 year ago

Python has done an impressive job over the years of making steady robust improvements. The typing and tooling has just gotten better and better. There are still plenty of problems though, imho async is still a much bigger pain than it should be (compared to other runtimes with a very nice experience like go or elixir, even dotnet has been less pain in my experience). Overall I like python, but it mainly boils down to the robust libraries for things I do (ML, Data munching/analysis)

dmz73• 1 year ago

I don't know what I am doing wrong but nothing written in Python has ever worked for me. I download the .py repo from from github or wherever and try to run it - errors. I try to install missing libraries pip this and that - errors. I battle fixing endless error with dependencies and when the .py finally runs - errors - wrong version of whatever library or wrong patch of this or that or the "production ready" .py does not work correctly on Windows or single file script uses excel library that has changed in incompatible ways 3 times in 2 years. I Download all the files from the flashy looking web site and follow all the instructions to the letter - errors. Python is anything but "robust". It is the most fragile environment in the universe, worse than c, c++ and javascript put togeter, at least this is my experience with it.

vrighter• 1 year ago

This is exactly my experience too. I avoid python software like the plague, because even when it does work, I can not rely on it continuing to work when python gets updated on my system.

DataDaoDe2• 1 year ago

That’s wild. The last time I had that experience with Python must have been more than 10 years ago. I’ll admit a decade ago you definitely did need to know way to many details about way too many tools from virtualenvs to setuotools to wheels, etc. to get things working from somebody else’s project, but imho, poetry and uv have really changed all that.

ActorNightly9• 1 year ago

can you give at least one example? You are probably just expecting too much. No manual checkout/install process is easy as installing an application.

zahlman16• 1 year ago

My own experience could hardly be more different. For that matter, I have never had to even look at a "flashy looking web site and follow all the instructions to the letter" in order to install something.

For example, to install yt-dlp, I followed these steps:

  sudo apt install pipx
  pipx install yt-dlp

Actually, only the second one, because I already had pipx (https://pipx.pypa.io/ — a wrapper for pip that does basic virtual environment management) installed.

Can you name some specific things in Python you have tried to use, and give more concrete descriptions of how you tried to set them up?

fastasucan4• 1 year ago

You cant really make a judgement on python from this, as your story just screams user error. I have never encountered anything of what you say, and I have been programming in Python from before I had any clue what I did.

BiteCode_dev3• 1 year ago

It's quite crazy, as Python first version was in 1991, 4 years before Java. It's a language with a ton of legacy baggage, the 2/3 transition, the BDLF being replaced by a completely different project leadership system, and it still keeps going strong.

This interview from Brett Cannon (old core dev who worked on packaging, imports, the vscode python extension...) is eye opening:

https://www.bitecode.dev/p/brett-cannon-on-python-humans-and

The guy cares SO MUCH and they have so many things not to break you can feel the sense of passion and the weight of responsibility in everything he says.

latexr5• 1 year ago

I started to code more in Python around 6 months ago. Why? Because of AI, obviously. It’s clear (to me) that big money opportunities are all over AI these days.

I find this depressing. Not only are LLMs covertly reducing our ability to think and make decisions, they’re now also making people voluntarily conform to some lower common denominator.

It’s like humanity decided to stagnate at this one point in time (and what a bad choice of point it was) and stop exploring other directions. Only what the LLM vomits is valid.

mrpopo999999• 1 year ago

humanity tried to save time and allocate it to other pursuits, don't worry

bb883• 1 year ago

Eh, I just wrote a chrome extension for the first time through AI. If it automates the boring stuff for us, I'm more okay with this than not.

taosx• 1 year ago

Unpopular opinion: I think I’m going to wait for version 4 /jk. But honestly, I’ve been spoiled by modern languages like Rust, Go, and even TypeScript with modern tooling, strong typing, stability, and performance out of the box. Right now, I’m just interacting with LLMs, not building them.

That said, I remember writing myself a note a few years ago to avoid Python projects. I had to clean up code from all over the company and make it ready for production. Everyone had their own Python version, dependencies missing from requirements.txt, three way conflicts between 2 dependencies and the python version, wildly different styles, and a habit of pulling in as many libraries as possible [1]. Even recalling those memories makes my stomach turn.

I believe constraints make a project shine and be maintainable. I'd prefer if you throw at me a real python instead of a python project.

[1] Yes, I'm aware of containers, I was the unlucky guy writing them.

bigiain• 1 year ago

Unpopular opinion: I think I’m going to wait for version 4

In my personal timeline, people giving up waiting for Perl 6 were a huge source of early Python developers.

1ncunabula• 1 year ago

What makes TypeScript better than Python? I don't get it..

Philpax• 1 year ago

Much more capable and reliable type system, paired with comparatively sane package management. This is getting better in the Python world (thank you Astral), but it's still not anywhere near the same.

theLiminator• 1 year ago

I don't have a strong love for python, but all the tooling the author mentioned has actually made python fairly decent to use now.

Still could be better, but I think Python's really hit its stride now.

Surac• 1 year ago

have fun!

CoolCold3• 1 year ago

Not only because the syntax is more human-friendly, but also because the Python interpreter is natively integrated in all Unix distros

That's kind of very optimistic evaluation - literally anything beyond "import json" will likely lead you into the abyss of virtual envs. Running something created with say Python 3.13.x on Ubuntu 22.04 or even 24.04 (LTSs) / Rocky 9 and the whole can of worms opened.

things like virtual envs + containers (docker like)/version managers become a must quickly.

nikisweeting3• 1 year ago

this is solved by uv

CoolCold3• 1 year ago

things like virtual envs

I consider my point as still valid with UV, what you wanted to express?

On UV specifically - say 'asdf' compiles python right on your system from official sources - means using your ssl libs for example. UV brings Python binary - I feel worried on this.

jauntywundrkind• 1 year ago

uv really is working super super super hard to absolve decades of sins and blood in the python world. and doing a good job at redemption.

acdha5• 1 year ago

“import json” is the kind of thing which requires picking and installing libraries in batteries-not-included languages, and it’s just one of many modules which are in the standard library. That’s not a compelling basis for large projects but over the years I’ve shipped a ton of useful production code which never needed more than the stdlib and thus spent no time at all thinking about deployment or security patching.

Also, it’s not the 2000s any more. Using venv to isolate application installs is not very hard anymore and there have been decent package managers for a long time.

frollogaston19• 1 year ago

The official package manager is pip, it's broken, and there has been a new "permanent solution" replacement for it each year.

CoolCold3• 1 year ago

I'm not arguing on venv to isolate installs, I'm saying that relying on Python coming from UNIX-like OSes is close to impossible for, at least web related projects. I.e. Ansible does a lot [in terms of what code it generates] to keep itself compatible with whatever Python3 versions it may find on systems ( remote hosts )

wpm• 1 year ago

I have a silly theory that I only half joke about that docker/containers wouldn't've ever taken off as fast as it did if it didn't solve the horrible python dependency hell so well. You know something is bad when fancy chrooting is the only ergonomic way of shipping something that works.

My first taste of Python was as a sysadmin, back in 2012 or so, installing a service written in Python on a server. The dependency hell, the stupid venv commands, all this absolute pain just to get a goddamn webserver running, good lord. It turned me off of Python for over a decade. Almost any time I saw it I just turned and walked away, not interested, no thanks. The times I didn't, I walked right back into that pile of bullshit and remembered why I normally avoided it. The way `brew` handles it on macOS is also immensely frustrating, breaking basic pip install commands, installing libraries as commands but in ways that make them not available to other python scripts, what a goddamn disaster.

And no, I really have no clue what I'm talking about, because as someone starting out this has been so utterly stupid and bewildering that I just move on to more productive, pleasant work with a mental note of "maybe when Python gets their shit together I'll revisit it".

However, uv has, at least for my beginner and cynical eyes, swept away most of the bullshit for me. At least superficially, in the little toy projects I am starting to do in Python (precisely because its such a nicer experience), it sweeps away most of the horrid bullshit. `uv init`, `uv add`, `uv run`. And it just works*.

stanleydrew2• 1 year ago

I have a silly theory that I only half joke about that docker/containers wouldn't've ever taken off as fast as it did if it didn't solve the horrible python dependency hell so well.

I don't think this is a silly theory at all. The only possibly silly part is that containers specifically helped solve this problem just for python. Lots of other software systems built with other languages have "dependency hell."

asa4003• 1 year ago

However, uv has, at least for my beginner and cynical eyes, swept away most of the bullshit for me.

uv is _much_ better than what came before. As someone who has only had only glancing contact with Python throughout my career (terrible experiences at jobs with conda and pip), uv feels like Python trying to actually join the 21st century of package management. It's telling that it's in Rust and clearly takes inspiration from Cargo, which itself took inspiration from Ruby and Bundler.

frollogaston19• 1 year ago

Yeah, if you look at a big Python vs Node vs Rust repo side by side, you'll notice Python is often the only one with a Dockerfile.

762236• 1 year ago

I won't touch Python either, but because I've been burned debugging large Python programs. Something that would have taken a minute in a statically typed language took hours of tracing data through the program to understand what was supposed to be in a dict. There are alternative languages that are pithy, statically typed, can write programs quickly, and can grow into large code bases that are maintainable; so there is never a reason to start a new project with Python today.

zahlman16• 1 year ago

You know something is bad when fancy chrooting is the only ergonomic way of shipping something that works.

Every language seems to have this problem. Or else how can we explain the proliferation of AppImage, Flatpak, Snap, ... ?

dapperdrake17• 1 year ago

Basically in the world of C static vs. dynamic linking. A trade-off as old as programming.

turtlebits2• 1 year ago

You should always use virtual envs. They're a single directory, how are they an abyss? Pip now complains if you try to install a package system wide.

unethical_ban• 1 year ago

For shadow IT, anything that requires "installation" vs. being in the base system or being added as a file to a project is an inconvenience.

It's why I like using Bottle for small Python frontends: download the file and import.

(I'm ranting based on personal experiences with IT in the past. Yes in general virtualenv is the baseline)

nomel3• 1 year ago

You should always use virtual envs.

If you're not using dependencies, and are writing 3.x code, there's very little justification.

frollogaston19• 1 year ago

I don't have to deal with this in JS or I think in other stuff like Golang. I give someone a package.json with versions of everything. npm install always sets deps up locally, but doesn't need to copy the entire NodeJS runtime.

ziml77• 1 year ago

Yes, please use virtual envs or containers. I know it seems overly heavy and hard to manage, but you don't want to end up in a situation where you're afraid to update the system because the library upgrades might break some of your Python code.

ActorNightly9• 1 year ago

No and no. I don't know how you even get to this level of "making it harder for yourself".

Say you want to use a specific version of python that is not available on Ubuntu.

1. Install build dependencies https://devguide.python.org/getting-started/setup-building/#...

2. Download whichever Python source version you want, https://www.python.org/downloads/source/. Extract it with tar

3. run ./configure --enable-optimizations --with-lto

4. run make -s -j [num cores]

5. sudo make altinstall

This will install that specific version without overwriting default system python.

You can then bash alias pip to python3.xx -m pip to make sure it runs the correct one.

All the libraries and any pip install executable will be installed locally to ~/.local folder under the specific python version.

Alternatively, if you work with other tools like node and want to manage different versions, you can use asdf, as it gives you per folder version selection.

virtual environments are really only useful for production code, where you want to test with specific versions and lock those down.

icedchai9• 1 year ago

Personal preference, but I prefer to use 'mise' instead of 'asdf' these days: https://mise.jdx.dev/

dragonwriter9• 1 year ago

Virtual environments are useful for isolating dependencies for different projects, not just isolating the interpreter.

(I mean, except on Windows, your venvs default to symlinking the interpreter and other shared bits, so you aren't really isolating the interpreter at all, just the dependencies.)

MintPaw2• 1 year ago

making it harder for yourself

Looking at just the first link, looks way more complicated than venv. And I'm a C++ developer, imagine someone who less experienced, or even who just isn't familiar with C toolchains.

frollogaston19• 1 year ago

Also in some older cases the pre-included Python is v2 and the system relies on it, which is more of a liability.

geysersam• 1 year ago

Just use uv

IshKebab4• 1 year ago

I agree - Python without uv is masochistic. But that really negates the "Python is already available" advantage. If you have to install uv you can just as easily install Rust or Go or Deno.

zahlman16• 1 year ago

I agree that the built-in Python is typically not suitable for development, especially if you're planning to distribute your code and/or care about the versions of its dependencies. (And especially on Debian and its derivatives, in my experience; they even remove parts of the standard library, like Tkinter [0].)

I disagree that virtual environments represent an "abyss". It takes very little effort to learn how they work [1], plus there a variety of tools that will wrap the process in various opinionated ways [2]. The environment itself is a very simple concept and requires very few moving parts; the default implementation includes some conveniences that are simply not necessary.

In particular, you don't actually need to "activate" a virtual environment; in 99% of cases you can just run Python by specifying the path to the environment's Python explicitly, and in the exceptional cases where the code is depending on environment variables being set (e.g. because it does something like `subprocess.call(['python', 'foo.py'])` to run more code in a new process, instead of checking `sys.executable` like it's supposed to, or because it explicitly checks `VIRTUAL_ENV` because it has a reason to care about activation) then you can set those environment variables yourself.

Creating a virtual environment is actually very fast. The built-in `venv` standard library module actually does it faster in my testing than the equivalent `uv` command. The slow part is bootstrapping Pip from its own wheel - but you don't need to do this [2]. You just have to tell `venv` not to, using `--without-pip`, and then you can use a separate Pip (for recent versions — almost the last 3 years now) copy cross-environment using `--python` (it's a hack, but it works if you don't have to maintain EOL versions of anything). If you need heavy-duty support, there's also the third-party `virtualenv` [3].

Much of the same tooling that manages virtual environments for you — in particular, pipx and uv, and in the hopefully near future, PAPER [4] — also does one-off script runs in a temporary virtual environment, installing dependencies described in the script itself following a new ecosystem standard [5]. Uv's caching system (and of course I am following suit) makes it very fast to re-create virtual environments with common dependencies: it has caches of unpacked wheel contents, so almost all of the work is just hard-linking file trees into the new environment.

[0] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/76105218

[1] https://chriswarrick.com/blog/2018/09/04/python-virtual-envi...

[2] https://zahlman.github.io/posts/2025/01/07/python-packaging-...

[3] https://virtualenv.pypa.io/

[4] https://github.com/zahlman/paper

[5] https://peps.python.org/pep-0723

dapperdrake17• 1 year ago

Many of the people I coached after they asked for help would have been absolutely flabbergasted by these suggestions.

Activating a venv was at least sething they could relate to.

_ea1k• 1 year ago

+1 - I've been shocked at how many little portability issues that I've had shipping software, even within the relatively constrained environment of fellow employees.

Minor differences between distro versions can make a big difference, and not everyone that uses a Python script knows how to use something like pyenv to manage different versions.

dapperdrake17• 1 year ago

More like a snake pit than a can of worms.

igor47• 1 year ago

Good write up, and solid choices. As someone primarily working in python in the last few years, I have a very similar stack.

Two additional suggestions:

* mise to manage system dependencies, including uv version and python itself

* just instead of make; makefile syntax is just too annoying.

Mise actually has a command runner as well which I haven't tried yet, and might work better for running commands in the context of the current environment. It's pretty nice when your GitHub actions workflow is just:

* Install mise

* mise install everything else

elemcontrib• 1 year ago

I don't see how the OP layering utilities on top of python remediates on the claim that the language is not "production ready". Which it clearly is.

flyinghamster2• 1 year ago

I've avoided Python for a long time, but I'm getting roped in myself, mainly because certain tasks seem to require a lot less code than Java or Perl.

That said, call me old-fashioned, but I really take issue with "curl $URL | bash" as an installation method. If you're going to use an install script, inspect it first.

limagnolia• 1 year ago

If your going to execute the code anyway, you either have to inspect everything or trust whoever is providing it. There is nothing special about bash that makes it more dangerous to execute than python.

flyinghamster2• 1 year ago

My issue is with $URL potentially getting hijacked, or even something like the kerfluffle over the PuTTY SSH client not residing at putty.org.

drdrey• 1 year ago

do you also inspect binary installers?

Mawr2• 1 year ago

Just a small note on the code in the linked script:

    API_KEY = os.environ.get("YOUTUBE_API_KEY")
    CHANNEL_ID = os.environ.get("YOUTUBE_CHANNEL_ID")
    
    if not API_KEY or not CHANNEL_ID:
        print("Missing YOUTUBE_API_KEY or YOUTUBE_CHANNEL_ID.")
        exit(1)

Presenting the user with "Missing X OR Y" when there's no reason that OR has to be there massively frustrates the user for the near zero benefit of having one fewer if statement.

    if not API_KEY:
        print("Missing YOUTUBE_API_KEY.")
        exit(1)
    if not CHANNEL_ID:
        print("Missing YOUTUBE_CHANNEL_ID.")
        exit(1)

Way better user experience, 0.00001% slower dev time.

niux• 1 year ago

Why not add a boolean flag and use a single exit(1) at the end? That way the user can see all the environment variables that have not been set.

gvalkov2• 1 year ago

This is nitpicking, but this is a good usecase for the := operator:

  if not (API_KEY := os.getenv("API_KEY")):
      ...

For internal tools I just let os.environ["API_KEY"] raise a KeyError. It's descriptive enough.

arthurcolle• 1 year ago

I always forget this syntax exists. When was this introduced?

tyrust2• 1 year ago

I write a decent amount of Python, but find the walrus operator unintuitive. It's a little funky that API_KEY is available outside of the `if`, perhaps because I had first seen the walrus operator in golang, which restricts the scope to the block.

lucb1e2• 1 year ago

Why would you use it though? I always thought it a bad thing that legacy code (such as in C or C++) had these side effects inside of checks happening

make32• 1 year ago

no one uses walrus

globular-toast5• 1 year ago

Why are people writing Python like it's Go?

Letting the KeyError go is usually fine, but if you want to log it or can recover somehow then:

    try:
      API_KEY = os.environ["API_KEY"]
    except KeyError:
      logger.exception("...")
      ...

wcrossbow• 1 year ago

Even better is to try to fetch all the env variables and then report on all of the missing ones.

pyuser5832• 1 year ago

It would be better to do both: print out the detailed string or strings, then exit if either are printed.

danielrico• 1 year ago

Even better, check all the conditions and report all the errors. Don't make me add the first variable, run it again and get another error.

Sometimes that's inevitable, bit noisy of the time it isn't.

taeric8• 1 year ago

I'm surprised there isn't an argparse like thing for documenting expected environment variables.

icedchai9• 1 year ago

That's basically pydantic settings: https://docs.pydantic.dev/latest/concepts/pydantic_settings/

paisawalla• 1 year ago

Taking ephemeral arguments like channel ID from the environment is more offensive to observability and user comfort

conductr• 1 year ago

I feel like use case and audience matters when making these decisions. In this case, the user is probably someone interacting with a python script they're running in a console (I assume by print), then I really don't think it matters - the user will check that both things are set. Should you also give them some documentation about setting env vars? Should you customize that documentation to the OS they're running? etc.

If the user is a typical consumer using a typical consumer interface, then yes you want to handhold them a bit more.

bjourne4• 1 year ago

Neophytes take notice. Attention to details like this is what separates truly great programmers from merely good ones. That said, for scripts reusable by others you should use command line arguments . Environment variables in lieu of command line arguments is a huge code smell.

shakna3• 1 year ago

You don't generally want API keys accidentally recorded into someone's bash history.

RadiozRadioz• 1 year ago

For this example, don't just command line arguments. There's an API key there, you don't want an API key visible in your cmdline.

connorbrinton• 1 year ago

Typer has a great feature that lets you optionally accept argument and flag values from environment variables by providing the environment variable name:

https://typer.tiangolo.com/tutorial/arguments/envvar/

It's especially nice for secrets. Best of both worlds :)

JohnKemeny• 1 year ago

    exit("Missing ...")

This prints the message and exits with code 1.

cristoperb• 1 year ago

Even slightly better is to first check both

    if not API_KEY and not CHANNEL_ID:
        print("Missing both YOUTUBE_API_KEY and YOUTUBE_CHANNEL_ID.")
        exit(1)
    if not API_KEY:
        print("Missing YOUTUBE_API_KEY.")
        exit(1)
    if not CHANNEL_ID:
        print("Missing YOUTUBE_CHANNEL_ID.")
        exit(1)

That way you don't end up fixing one just come back and be told you're also missing another requirement

delusional• 1 year ago

Even better would be to only check each once and buffer the decision:

    valid = True
    if not API_KEY:
        print("Missing YOUTUBE_API_KEY.")
        valid = False
    if not CHANNEL_ID:
        print("Missing YOUTUBE_CHANNEL_ID.")
        valid = False
    if not valid:
        exit(1)

This way you only check each value once (because your logic might be more complicated than just checking it's not set, maybe it can be wrongly formatted) and you still get to do whatever logic you want. It also removed the combinatorial problems.

This is a pretty general principle of separating decision from action.

make32• 1 year ago

why print then exit(1) instead of raising an exception?

mdaniel2• 1 year ago

Oh, I know this one:

  $ python3 -c "print('clear messaging'); exit(1)"
  clear messaging

  $ python3 -c "raise ValueError('text that matters')"
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
  ValueError: text that matters

and that story gets _a lot_ worse when some programs raise from within a "helper" module and you end up with 8 lines of Python junk to the one line of actual signal

stana• 1 year ago

  API_KEY = os.environ.get("YOUTUBE_API_KEY")
  CHANNEL_ID = os.environ.get("YOUTUBE_CHANNEL_ID")

  assert(API_KEY, "Missing YOUTUBE_API_KEY")
  assert(CHANNEL_ID, "Missing CHANNEL_ID")

Tempest1981• 1 year ago

Do you use parens with assert? In Python, the assert statement is not a function, right?

That bit me before... it created a tuple which evaluated as true.

IshKebab4• 1 year ago

Assertions are disabled via `python -O` so they probably shouldn't be used like this.

rcarmo• 1 year ago

I usually go through an array of settings that must be defined and list any missing ones, to avoid repeated attempts from the user/deployer.

Suppafly• 1 year ago

Thank you. I see something like this all the time on one of the sites I use for work. If you fail the 2-factor, it'll tell you your password was wrong and reset the whole thing instead of telling you the 2-factor code was wrong or expired.

Perepiska• 1 year ago

Just use

  if not API_KEY:
    sys.exit("Missing YOUTUBE_API_KEY.")

It will print message to sys.stderr and do system exit with code 1.

P.S. exit() is just an alias to sys.exit(), I prefer longer form.

firecall• 1 year ago

“I started to code more in Python around 6 months ago. Why? Because of AI, obviously. It’s clear (to me) that big money opportunities are all over AI these days. And guess what’s the de facto programming language for AI? Yep, that sneaky one.”

Why is that?

Why Python for AI?

johnisgood3• 1 year ago

Possibly because many available LLMs run your Python code in a sandbox, which means less friction for vibe coders, or it may be a contributing factor at the very least.

AlexeyBrin3• 1 year ago

Because many available LLMs run your Python code in a sandbox, which means less friction for vibe coders.

This is false, a lot of non "vibe coders" are using Python for AI because of PyTorch and a many other AI libraries have first class Python support.

AlexeyBrin3• 1 year ago

Because you get first class support in many AI libraries like PyTorch, TensorFlow and so on ... Most of these libraries can be used from other programming languages too, but it is easier to find good documentation and examples for Python.

Hizonner• 1 year ago

I wonder what the poor guy is switching from.

troad2• 1 year ago

Java, JavaScript, and R, according to a footnote in the article. Which - to be entirely honest - sharply coloured my view of the preceding article.

"I went from being fully covered in mud to only being half covered in mud, and it's great! I don't understand why people complain about being half covered in mud."

moribvndvs• 1 year ago

I don’t understand “switching” to anything. The job picks the tool, not the other way around.

Bridged7756• 1 year ago

I think it's mostly boredom-driven career choices.

1vuio0pswjnm75• 1 year ago

"And guess what's the de facto programming language for AI? Yep, that sneaky one."

Is this referring at all to to PyTorch. If not, any guesses what the author has in mind

"Not only because the syntax is more human-friendly, but also because the Python interpreter is natively integrated in all Unix distros."

Is this referring to GNU/Linux.

UNIX (UNIX-like) includes more than Linux; some UNIX distributions do not include Python in the base system

Where it is left as choice to the user whether to install it

I know this because I use such distributions and, unless some software needs it, I do not install Python

In such case, when I am done using that software I uninstall it^1

For example, he mentions retrieving YouTube channel metadata

I do not use Python for this; I use a 19-line shell script (ash not bash), its startup time is faster

Unlike Python, it is included in the base system of the UNIX distributions (both Linux and BSD) that I use

But if I need to test something using yt-dlp, then I might temporarily install Python

1. I compile Python from source and one annoying aspect of the project , in addition to the slow startup time, is their failure to include an uninstall target in their Makefile

megaloblasto• 1 year ago

"And guess what's the de facto programming language for AI? Yep, that sneaky one."

He's referring to Python in general

"Not only because the syntax is more human-friendly, but also because the Python interpreter is natively integrated in all Unix distros."

I think he means that its available or readily available in many major linux distributions like Ubuntu, Fedora, NixOS, etc. I don't think native is the right word.

I use bash too but Python is amazing. You're right, there are problems related to packaging and speed, but it is still very often the right tool for the job. It's powerful, easy to use, and open source.

1vuio0pswjnm75• 1 year ago

"I use bash too but Python is amazing."

I do not use bash. I use ash. Bash is too slow for me, like Python.

donkeybeer• 1 year ago

What is the reason you prefer not to simply let python lie around? Security?

1vuio0pswjnm75• 1 year ago

Storage space usually. Even when I have surplus space I still like to have minimal userlands with only the utilities I am actually using.

nijave8• 1 year ago

I do not use Python for this; I use a 19-line shell script (ash not bash), its startup time is faster

Ash doesn't do web requests unless you've implemented HTTP in ash. You're back to using 3rd party dependencies that aren't installed on all systems

1vuio0pswjnm75• 1 year ago

For this script I have "implemented HTTP" using printf, an ash builtin.

The TCP networking is done with orginal netcat reading the HTTP from a pipe.

The TLS is handled by a TLS forward proxy listening on the loopback.

The orginal netcat and other TCP clients I use, like tcpclient from djb's ucspi or tcploop from haproxy, are not part of the NetBSD base system but are easily added when I compile the OS. For Linux I use a custom distribution I make myself, without LFS. Busybox has ash and nc together in the same binary.

These TCP client programs are stationary targets, they will work reliably year after year, and small enough that I can store and compile them quickly even on computers with modest resources. Python is constantly evolving, a moving target, and much larger.

I wrote a utility in C89 that "implements HTTP" called yy025. This is produced using GCC, specifically flex, which is intsalled on all systems I use. flex is part of the NetBSD toolchain. It's a requirement for compiling the OS. It's a requirement for building many GNU userland utilities. It's even a listed requirement when building the Linux kernel.

yy025 is what I normally use in shell scripts when I need to generate HTTP. It reads URLs on stdin and outputs customised HTTP to stdout. There is no "third party dependency" for HTTP. This is a "first party" program. I wrote it.

But this script to fetch YouTube metadata doesn't use yy025. It's just some printf statements.

ic_fly2• 1 year ago

pydantic basemodel has made dataclasses redundant.

_Wintermute• 1 year ago

Dataclasses have the one massive benefit of not being an additional dependency.

ddejohn4• 1 year ago

This. You also don't really need Pydantic unless you're de/serializing data from external sources. A dataclass is perfectly cromulent if you're just passing around data internally.

yomismoaqui• 1 year ago

Python is the 2nd best language at everything.

nilamo• 1 year ago

And the first best is python3!

runjake2• 1 year ago

I really don't find the Python language elegant at all. I prefer the Ruby syntax.

But Python's tooling, particularly with what Astral is doing (uv, ruff, ty), is so good, I'm always using Python and virtually never using Ruby. And yeah, the rich libraries, too.

machiaweliczny3• 1 year ago

Jupyter is also great thing in python ecosystem + colab etc.

Arch-TK2• 1 year ago

Ubiquitous VSCode - honestly a tragedy.

Night_Thastus2• 1 year ago

I love writing Python. However, there are caveats:

1: I don't like dealing with language crossing boundaries with it - it's painful, especially if to/from a compiled language - there's just too much friction. It's easy to write but hard to maintain.

2: Debugging python can be...painful. If you have a pure perfect environment dedicated to pure python and all the tooling set up, it can be breezy. But if you have something messier like C++ that calls Python or vice-versa and are using an editor not made for Python like QTCreator then suddenly it becomes hell.

Who owns this data!? Where was this initialized!? What calls this function!? What type is this data!?!?!?!? These questions are so effortless in C++ for me and so very painful in Python. It slows efforts to a crawl.

It feels exhausting to have to go back to print statements, grep, and hand-drawing a graph that shows what functions call what just to figure out WTF went wrong. It's painful to a degree that I avoid it as much as possible.

...and don't even get me started on dealing with dependency problems in deployments...

gh02t• 1 year ago

I've long lusted after a smooth debugging workflow writing Cython that would let you seamlessly debug between Python and C/C++. I think there are some hacks to do it, but nothing really well integrated.

miguel_martin• 1 year ago

Python debugging is great when you're strictly debugging Python code. Placing a `breakpoint` or spinning up an IPython instance to investigate the issue via `import IPython; IPython.embed()` makes life breezy. For neovim, you can send code to the ipython REPL easily via vim-slime.

I've never found myself debugging the underlying C++ code unless developing a C++ extension. But is it really that hard? Just point lldb to the python process and run your script in lldb.

If the C++ is not yours & assuming it's a mature lib (e.g. PyTorch): it's probably an error caused by you in Python land.

Night_Thastus2• 1 year ago

Both the C++ and Python are mine. I have cases of both C++ calling Python, and Python calling C++. Problems could be on either side.

The problem is how to step into one from the other, you really can't as far as I know.

The python parts aren't standalone enough that it could just be run on its own, there's so much setup involved prior to that point that it can really only be run from the top-level user controls.

jlarocco• 1 year ago

When did Python go out of fashion? This is the second article I've seen talking about it as if it's some kind abomination.

I get that it's not the shiny new thing, but I don't understand people hating on it. Is this just junior devs who never learned it, or is there some new language out that I missed? (And please don't tell me Javascript....)

wk_end• 1 year ago

Yes, I'd say Python's crown as the go-to lightweight scripting and web development language was mostly ceded to JS.

It's still reigning champion of data science, and of course it has a huge number of uses and users still around, but it's not really cool or in vogue outside of those circles.

jraph• 1 year ago

Do people really turn to JS (instead of Python) for lightweight scripting? Are we talking about the "better Bash" use case?

mjr00• 1 year ago

It's still reigning champion of data science, and of course it has a huge number of uses and users still around, but it's not really cool or in vogue outside of those circles.

This is a wild take. You're never going to get a fully accurate measurement but every source I've seen[0][1][2] puts Python as the most common programming language by a country mile.

If it doesn't seem "cool" or "in vogue", that's because everyone is already using it.

[0] https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ [1] https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html#google_vignette [2] https://www.pluralsight.com/resources/blog/upskilling/top-pr...

slightwinder3• 1 year ago

Python has never been THE web development language, that's always been JavaScript. Python is one of the more popular server-side languages, and JavaScript has move from frontend to backend in the last decade too. Not sure whether this has really taken the crown of any backend-language.

And what is lightweight scripting? Isn't scripting by definition lightweight?

But Python overall is still very popular outside the Data Science-circles. Not sure where this claim is coming from.

ravenstine• 1 year ago

I personally dislike Python, but it does surprise me that anyone is acting like it's generally disliked because that has definitely not been my impression since time immemorial. I doubt that it's gone out of fashion. More likely, acting like something actually doesn't suck after all has become the clickbait framework du jour.

vinceguidry• 1 year ago

There are massive numbers of devs who would never even think of trying to code in a dynamically-typed language, even though the big players all have gradual typing. They don't know what they're missing.

leptons2• 1 year ago

I have no problem with dynamically-typed languages, my main problem with Python is the significant whitespace. I really do not like it. I can deal with everything else in Python, or any other programming language, but significant whitespace is what kills it for me.

guhcampos2• 1 year ago

Apparently the author used to be a Java person. I have this feeling - or prejudice - that people still in the Java World are a bit out of tune with the tech industry, working on huge legacy projects on big retail or US banking. These people tend to be conservative and resistant to change, so maybe that's where these types of articles are coming from.

tombert9• 1 year ago

I gave a talk recently at a conference about how modern Java doesn’t suck very much, and that the worst part of Java is Java developers, who seem to be completely intellectually unambitious.

I don’t think Java makes anyone unambitious, I think it’s that Java is taught in schools and unambitious people don’t feel the need to learn anything else, and they get jobs at unambitious corporations. It selection-biases towards unambitious people who don’t want to learn more than they have to.

Compare this to something like Clojure or Haskell or something, which isn’t routinely taught at schools and is not very employable. People who learn these languages generally seek out these things because they’re interested in it. This selection-biases towards intellectually ambitious people.

As a result, Java people can be insufferable for people like me.

The people who make Java have actually made the platform and language pretty ok in the last two decades, but I had to fight at a previous job to use NIO, which I think was introduced in Java 4, but none of my coworkers had really heard of it or used it because the regular Java blocking IO has been “good enough”.

munificent4• 1 year ago

I have a related feeling or prejudice that people not in the Java World view their corner as "the tech industry" without realizing that they are living in a village compared to the giant metropolis that is the Java World.

Java programmers may not blog as much, and Java doesn't show up on Hacker News as much, but not being Extremely Online does not mean that it isn't extremely widely used by real people whose experiences are just as valid.

bunderbunder6• 1 year ago

Java shops are certainly where I've witnessed the most disdain for Python. IME the strongest feelings tend to come from people who didn't actually have any significant experience with Python, and perhaps don't even have much practical experience with any language that isn't Java. So they tended to consider it to be objectively inferior purely because it's interpreted and dynamically typed.

At a previous job I did manage to put a chip in that when I demonstrated replacing one of our Java services with a Python implementation. It was a fraction of the code, and achieved much better latency and throughput. Obviously not every Python program is going to do that. But my point isn't that Python is better, it's that these kinds of things are never so cut-and-dried. Many non-trivial Python programs are just thin shells around a large core of very well-optimized and battle-tested C/C++/Rust code. And Java, for its part, can also accumulate a lot of dynamic language-style performance losses to pointer chasing and run-time type lookups (and GC churn) if you're not careful about how you use generics. As always, the devil's in the details. It's also less able to pull the "actually I'm a C++" trick because using a compacting garbage collector makes it difficult to interop with native code without paying a hefty marshaling tax.

NomDePlum• 1 year ago

I've always felt X was far superior to Y, and don't get me started on Z or W.

rs1862• 1 year ago

I think at least half of amazon.com and AWS run on Java.

pea• 1 year ago

I feel like the opposite is also true. People view Java as enterprise Java from 2008; a clunky outdated language for bad, verbose spaghetti code.

In fact, a lot of the most interesting plt and compiler r&d going into real world applications is on the jvm (project loom, graal etc), and the features of modern Java (pattern matching, records, etc) make it a great choice for lots of projects that aren’t legacy enterprise apps.

le-mark• 1 year ago

I have this feeling - or prejudice - that people still in the Java World are a bit out of tune with the tech industry

Other than being ageist, it’s wrong; or misattributed to Java. I work with Python every day, and what’s missing is static typing and IDEs that make use of it to greatly reduce the amount of code and context I have to store in my head. Python (a dynamically typed language obviously) is exhausting to maintain. But easy to write. Java/C#/whatever statically typed language with great IDE is easy to write and maintain by comparison.

Of course there are IDE for Python and dynamically typed languages, but everyone I’ve tried has fallen short compared to the best Java/c# IDEs.

Static vs dynamic used to be a huge flame war on the internet, but over the past few years I’ve encountered people who’ve never heard of it. This is it.

callc4• 1 year ago

I coded happily in python for many years and fell out of love with it.

It doesn’t ship with a first party package manager so you got the community trying to fill this gap. Use any other language with good tooling like golang or rust and it is a breath of fresh air.

Python used as an actual PL is a footgun because it’s dynamic scripted. (Don’t tell me about using tools X, Y, Z, mypy, …) You essentially become the compiler checking types, solving basic syntax errors when uncommon paths are executed.

A programming language that’s only good for < 100 line scripts is not a good choice.

I honestly wish python were in a better state. I switched to rust.

rsyring3• 1 year ago

A programming language that’s only good for < 100 line scripts is not a good choice.

What a bunch of crap. It's so trivial to show very popular and useful programs written in Python that far exceed this number I'm not even going to do the work.

What a lazy criticism.

maleldil7• 1 year ago

Don’t tell me about using tools X, Y, Z, mypy, …

What's wrong with using tools that improve on common issues? I don't think I'd use Python without them, but ruff and pyright make Python a very productive and reliable language if you're willing to fully buy into the static analysis.

stanleydrew2• 1 year ago

Is this just junior devs who never learned it

Seems more like it's fallen out of favor with senior devs who have moved to Go/Rust.

ajkjk3• 1 year ago

you'd be crazy (senior or not) not to use Go for Go stuff and Python for Python stuff

pyuser5832• 1 year ago

I consider this self-inflicted. Pythons Async functionality is … unfortunate.

JavaScript has much more intuitive async syntax, which was actually borrowed from a Python framework.

For whatever reasons, the Python folks decided not to build on what they had, and reinvents things from scratch.

bee_rider• 1 year ago

I don’t know anything about go. But Rust is more of a competitor to C and C++, right? It is sort of bizarre if these languages are butting heads with a scripting language like Python.

Python compares fairly well to Bash or JavaScript or whatever, right? (Maybe JavaScript is better, I don’t know anything about it).

tombert9• 1 year ago

I have had a somewhat unearned distaste for Python for the last decade or so.

I mostly just don’t like some of the design decisions it made. I don’t like that lambdas can’t span multiple lines, I don’t like how slow loops are, I don’t like some functions seem to mutate lists and others don’t, and I am sure that there are other things I missed.

But it really comes down to the fact that my career hasn’t used it much. I occasionally have had to jump into it because of scripting stuff, and I even did teach it for a programming 101 course at a university, but I haven’t had a lot of exposure otherwise.

For scripting stuff for myself, I usually end up using Clojure with GraalVM (yes I know about babashka), or nowadays even just a static linked compiled language like Rust.

I don’t really understand why people think that compiled languages can’t be used for scripting (or at least task automation), honestly. Yes you have to add a compilation step. This involves maybe one extra step during development, but realistically not even that. With Rust I just do cargo run while developing, I don’t see how that’s harder than typing Python.

Joker_vD• 1 year ago

    msedit main.py && ./main.py
    !!
    !!

But indeed, pressing F5 solves that for both Rust and Python

dec0dedab0de10• 1 year ago

why would you want a lambda to span multiple lines? How would that be any better than a function?

bko• 1 year ago

The most insane python feature is that for loops keep their intermediate variable.

for x in [1,2,3]: print(x)

x sticks around! So you'll always have these random variables floating around, and hope you don't use the wrong one.

And to add insult to insult to injury, if you're using mypy for type checking you'll get a nice error if you try to reuse x with a different type:

for x in ['a', 'b', 'c']: print(x) << Incompatible types in assignment (expression has type "str", variable has type "int") [assignment]

And the types I can never trust. I've used all the tooling and you still get type errors in runtime. It's also ridiculously slow.

I would also like optional chaining (e.g. foo?.bar?.baz) and a million other features that other high level programming languages have.

m0llusk• 1 year ago

The v2 to v3 transition threw a lot of people.

codethief• 1 year ago

Can we please stop reiterating the same old stories? That was years ago. Most Python devs these days never wrote a single line of Python 2. I learned it 16 years ago and, while frameworks like Django were still in the middle of the transition back then, I pretty much started learning & writing Python 3 right away.

dec0dedab0de10• 1 year ago

When it got big enough that companies were forcing people to learn it. People automatically hate things they didn't choose themselves.

Plus there has been a rising sentiment against dynamic typing by masochists over the last decade or so.

verandaguy• 1 year ago

    > by masochists

Hey! The masochism pays dividends. I can't do anything with duck typing that I can't also do with `dyn Trait` abuse :)

blurbleblurble6• 1 year ago

After using Rust's tooling, Python's tooling is obscenely painful. Like intolerable. Which makes some of us feel overwhelmingly frustrated with the language itself. The amount of time I've squandered on Python because of its tooling... I'm never getting that back.

But then uv came along. It's not just another poetry or pipenv or whatever. It works well and it has uvx and `uv tool install` and other nice things.

Previously when I saw that something was written in Python I'd curse under my breath because I don't have the mental energy to make a virtual environment and source its shell script and remember where I put it just to try something out. On arch Linux I can't just pip install something without going through some crazy setup that I used to have patience for but as I get older it's been better to just curse that snake language altogether and spend time doing something more chill like writing rust.

But now I can just type "uvx" and it works. I'm probably not going to start writing python again any time soon, but at least now I have less reason to be disappointed with people who themselves choose to write Python.

jonas21• 1 year ago

A decade ago, Python was pretty rough around the edges in production. Of course you could make it work, but you had to sacrifice a lot in terms of:

- Environment / dependency management

- Type safety

- Performance

As the author points out, these have largely been addressed now by uv, type hints, pydantic, FastAPI, etc.

dccsillag• 1 year ago

Typing still sucks big time. Same for perf, unless you are working with numerics that fit with something like NumPy or JAX.

ActorNightly9• 1 year ago

A decade ago, Python was pretty rough around the edges in production.

Not really.

Environment/dependency management is/was never an actual problem. People act like you update a version and stuff breaks. Even then, venv existed for this reason, and you could specify version in the setup.py or requirements.txt.

Type safety should in theory be covered by unit tests. If you assign a variable to another one in a dynamic setting accidentally, like a string to a dict, then your functionality breaks. In reality though, its really not that hard to use different variable names. In my experience, the only time things start getting confusing is if you start using Java concepts with things like Factories and a lot of OOP and inheritance in Python. None of that stuff is really necessary, you can get by with dicts for like 90% of the data transfer. And in very type safe languages, you spend a lot of time designing the actual type system instead of just writing code that does stuff.

Performance is still slow, but language performance doesn't really matter - you can launch natively compiled code easily from Python. Numpy was built around this concept and is also 10 years old. You will never beat C (with explicit processor instructions for things like vector math) or CUDA code, but most of your code doesn't require this level of performance.

codazoda• 1 year ago

I haven't tried uv but my biggest pain point with Python has been the way env works. I always find it painful and odd.

Backward compatibility, which I suppose is closely related to needing to use env, is also a pain. In my experience you can't go forward or backward in many cases. It's especially painful on projects that don't change very often. I'm sure that an active codebase can probably be kept updated from version to version, but if you've waited a bunch of versions, it seems painful.

But, I'm not sure I've given it a fair shake because I haven't needed to. It's use in AI does make it an attractive option, now more than ever.

taeric8• 1 year ago

I think for a lot of us, it was very frustrating when it was being pushed with no real analog for the practices we had in other languages. Poetry used to be pushed as how to do dependency management, but it was not obvious that it was not necessarily your build manager, as well. Even today, I'm not entirely clear what the standard approach is for how to manage a project. :(

blurbleblurble6• 1 year ago

If I were to try again I'd go with uv, it seems way way better

whatever1• 1 year ago

I think during the python 2-> 3 transition period (which was almost a decade long) a lot of people started looking into alternatives, because frankly that mess was the last straw. In the scientific domain this is when Julia started growing.

Of course then crypto bros happened and the rest is history.

_dain_4• 1 year ago

I think a combination of:

- statically typed languages got better, reducing the relative benefits of dynamic typing. people realized they didn't really hate static types, they hated the way [insert 90s-00s enterprise language here] did static types

- the GIL became more and more painful as computers got more cores

- it used to be a language for passionate hackers, like a latter-day lisp (cf that old pg essay). "written in python" used to be a signal of quality and craftsmanship. now it's the most commonly taught beginner language; millions of bootcamp devs put it in their CV. average skill level plunged.

- PSF was asleep at the wheel on the packaging / tooling problems for years. pip/venv are dinosaurs compared to cargo, nix, or even npm.

photonthug• 1 year ago

Python is probably too awesome and versatile to go out of fashion, but as a long time user.. the ecosystem is frustrating. Dependencies and packaging have been, and still are a nightmare after thousands of years. Problems are fixable sure but the thing is that they never end. After you get plenty of practice fixing all the related problems, you'll have to keep fixing them for yourself, your less savvy teammates, and in third-party code pretty much forever. This is worth it in exchange for "import antigravity" for the first 100 years, but it's frustrating eventually.

Everyone will mention uv/pyenv/poetry/conda/virtualenvs, so fine, let's pretend it's not a problem that you tried each of those in desperation and they are all household names. Suppose the packaging wars actually ended and everyone uses what you use without you needing to tell them, and suppose further that every pypa problem isn't blaming debian maintainers for obvious regressions. Pypi will still yank[0] packages at the source to perhaps randomly break deterministic behaviour, smashing anything in the blast radius rather than only clients using a --strict flag or something. You can pin your own dependencies but who knows what they will pin (nothing, or the wrong stuff, or the wrong way probably!) or what they will yank. Now for repeatability you need to host a mirror for everything you use- which is fine for corporate but a nonstarter for the novice and annoying for FOSS projects.

If you have zero dependencies or a slowly changing environment that is receiving constant care and feeding, you'll probably never notice how bad things are. If you put down most projects for a month though and pick them back up, perhaps with a different environment, machine, or slightly different python version it's broken, bitrotted, and needs serious attention to be rehabilitated.

People might argue.. that's just software dev. Nope. I say it with lots of love and gratitude for the efforts of the community.. but most langs/ecosystems would never tolerate this level of instability. One has to eventually just admit that working, portable, and actually repeatable environments with python basically just require docker. Can we talk about how "--break-system-packages" is hilarious? After you retreat to docker you can type this a few times a day, push the container up, pull it down months/years later, and then realize that literally the only way to get a stable working environment is to request a broken one. QED

[0] https://docs.pypi.org/project-management/yanking/

globular-toast5• 1 year ago

It's not out of fashion. We're just seeing the long tail finally picking it up. It's becoming somewhat of a lingua franca of programming.

whinvik• 1 year ago

Out of curiosity, why would I use Dataclass vs a Pydantic Basemodel. If we did not have a PyDantic dependency I could imagine wanting to use Dataclass. But if I have it, why not use everywhere?

rsyring3• 1 year ago

To help answer your question, here's a detailed comparison from the attrs project:

https://www.attrs.org/en/stable/why.html

There's some obvious potential for bias there, but I thought most of the arguments were well reasoned.

Edit: found another that I thought was helpful: https://threeofwands.com/why-i-use-attrs-instead-of-pydantic...

intalentive• 1 year ago

Performance hit from data validation at construction time. I like msgspec which is much leaner and faster.

lysecret• 1 year ago

Main reason is (used to be) performance. But since pydantic 2.0 it’s not an issue anymore I default to use pydantic for everything.

maleldil7• 1 year ago

Unnecessary baggage if you don't need validation or serialisation.

My rule of thumb is to use Pydantic if I need serialisation, otherwise I default to dataclasses.

globular-toast5• 1 year ago

This and not just for the performance reasons. A Pydantic model represents an I/O boundary of a program. This conveys a lot of information to a programmer reading the code. It would be quite misleading to find it's actually only passed around internally and never used for I/O. A bit like using an int type to store a Boolean value.

On the other hand if I see a dataclass I can tell what it's purpose is by whether it's frozen or not etc.

Always strive for self-documenting code.

adammarples• 1 year ago

The Chad answer is to use pydantic.dataclass

afiodorov• 1 year ago

My rule of the thumb is that Dataclasses are for compile-time type-checking, pydantic classes are for run time type checking.

tauroid• 1 year ago

Why would I use a Pydantic model when `TypeAdapter(MyDataclass)` exists?

meander_water• 1 year ago

One explicit difference is that dataclasses don't support validating nested objects.

I'd use it for passing flat structures as function args rather than a massive list of individual args.

simonw2• 1 year ago

I would like to have a tool that generates the project structure for me, but I haven’t found one that fits me yet.

I recommend cookiecutter for this. I have a few templates I've built with that which I use frequently:

python-lib: https://github.com/simonw/python-lib

click-app: https://github.com/simonw/click-app

datasette-plugin: https://github.com/simonw/datasette-plugin

llm-plugin: https://github.com/simonw/llm-plugin

You can run them like this:

  uvx cookiecutter gh:simonw/python-lib

timkpaine• 1 year ago

Copier is the new hotness for this

https://copier.readthedocs.io/en/stable/

oezi• 1 year ago

My take on this (using Ruby) is https://github.com/coezbek/baker

It doesn't copy template repos, but rather creates a list of imperative steps to perform. Steps can be both manual (obtain an API key and store it here) and automatic (run 'uv init'). Markdown syntax, ruby string interpolation and bash.

It came from a deep hate for yml based configs.

mmcnl3• 1 year ago

Am I the only one who actually likes setting up new projects? I don't want to automate that.

serial_dev• 1 year ago

It depends on your work, though…

If you work at an agency or as a freelancer and you build various similar apps with similar tooling and base setup, being able to scaffold and have them all setup quickly, not having to do it manually and waste hours id important. Similarly, if you work on various small open source packages, you want the tooling to be the same, READMEs look the same, etc, a script or tool to “spit out” the basic structure can be nice.

On the other hand, if you set up the app or larger open source package and you’ll work only on that project for potentially years, setting up a project individually, organically makes a lot of sense.

bshacklett• 1 year ago

I’m legitimately curious about what you enjoy and why. Rewriting boiler plate code and trying to ensure that I get everything right with a process I don’t often execute is the very definition of toil to me.

consumer451• 1 year ago

This type of thing seems ripe for building into agentic LLM dev workflows, doesn't it?

didip• 1 year ago

Honestly, these days, just tell AI to generate one for you.

mrbonner• 1 year ago

Hmm never heard of this. Thanks for the recommendation.

zahlman16• 1 year ago

I made a small wrapper for cookiecutter, to handle some minimal Git integration (making a repo and doing the first commit) and to match my workflow better (write some initial code first, then transform it into a "project folder" in place): https://github.com/zahlman/cookiebaker

I'm not a huge fan of cookiecutter on aesthetic principles, though. I think it's chosen some needlessly heavyweight dependencies for such a simple task. PyYAML comes with a big chunk of compiled C, while performance is really not going to matter and I'd rather use TOML anyway. I've yet to see a project depending on Rich that uses more than a tiny portion of it; this is no exception. More to the point, Rich brings in the much larger Pygments (for syntax highlighting; most of the bulk is actual syntax definition rules for a variety of programming languages) and you can't disable that. And honestly I'm not a fan of the whole "download other people's templates using an integrated client" model anyway; Requests and its dependencies are pretty bulky, too.

rahimnathwani• 1 year ago

I looked at the click-app repo. If you were creating that today, would you switch from uv to pip?

And to run cookiecutter do you still use pipx, or have you switched to `uv tool install`

simonw2• 1 year ago

I'm getting close to switching to uv for my templates.

I use "uvx cookiecutter" myself three days.

manofmanysmiles• 1 year ago

I make projects following almost identical patterns. It's a little uncanny. Maybe the people in the python developer ecosystem are converging on a pretty uniform way to do most things? I though some of my choices were maybe "my own", it seeing such consistency makes me question my own free will.

It's like when people pick a "unique" name for their baby along with almost everyone else. What you thought was a unique name is the #2 most popular name.

bobson381• 1 year ago

as though subsurface pilot waves in every spectrum hold human egos as constituent particles - becoming-being lol

dapperdrake17• 1 year ago

It is the side of ice cream that makes all the difference for the improbability drive.

solumos• 1 year ago

This sort of architecture has been in favor with python for at least 10 years or so, but I think you're right — the structure just makes sense, so many reasonable engineers converge on using it.

vpShane• 1 year ago

I recently switched to python as well, I went pure nodejs because JS is everywhere and its handy to know. Doing frustratingly, front and back end dev on personal projects gave me a lot of frustration and living in a firefox/chromium Console

I asked Gemini code to generate the same skeleton stuff I was coding in nodejs, and did it perfectly in 1/8 of the code required. python's been maintained for years and is honestly a really easy syntax.

for OS level things, python makes sense and is the defacto. right now I vibe code and skeletons and then determine what I want to add and add it manually.

I'm enjoying the switch, maybe not as hardcore of a dev as many of you but it gives me the fix of having an engineering mind and being able to test things on the fly since I live in a terminal anyways.

I agree with all the points. I do like however that I can do:

def functionHere(something: str, someNumberOrSomething: int)

Seeing all the "uv has made me want to use python again" posts got me in to it. glad I did.

0xbadcafebee4• 1 year ago

Maybe I'm the only one that finds Python simultaneously verbose and lacking? Either you need 500 dependencies to do something in a simple way, or you need dozens (if not hundreds) of lines to do trivial things. I avoid writing Python because there's so much bullshit to add. Much prefer Perl, I can actually get things done quickly. Python feels like programming for the sake of programming.

supportengineer• 1 year ago

dang the backend is leaking old comments from 2007

mystifyingpoi• 1 year ago

Could you share an example, where Perl is quicker to use and more powerful?

lucb1e2• 1 year ago

And not write-only (https://handwiki.org/wiki/Write-only_language)

const_cast2• 1 year ago

Using it as a replacement for Bash. No environment required, Perl is already installed on every computer on earth. Perl is generally quicker to write for string-oriented workflows - which is what Bash is. Regex is quick and easy.

Perl falls apart when you need structure and even small projects. For short scripts meant to do what you would use Bash for, it's a godsend. Safer, more portable, less friction.

wslh• 1 year ago

YMMV, but in my experience, Python's top use cases tend to require fewer dependencies, not more. Many trivial tasks are already built into the language. Not saying Python is perfect, but it's definitely well-oriented in that regard. I'm curious in what kinds of use cases have you found the opposite to be true?

I think the classic Python vs. Perl question ultimately comes down to using what you feel most comfortable with. People are different, and that's totally fine.

nickjj2• 1 year ago

I have a bunch of zero dependency projects. You can get a lot done with the standard library and single file projects which you can run on most systems without needing to do anything except curl it down and run it since Python is available.

For example here's a ~2k line Python project which is a command line finance income and expense tracker: https://github.com/nickjj/plutus/blob/main/src/plutus

It uses about a dozen stdlib modules.

About 25% of the code is using argparse to parse commands and flags. With that said, I tend to prefer code that yields more lines for the sake of clarity. For example this could technically be 1 or 2 lines but I like each parameter being on its own line.

    parser_edit.add_argument(
        "-s",
        "--sort",
        default=False,
        action="store_true",
        help="Sort your profile and show a diff if anything changed",
    )

0xbadcafebee4• 1 year ago

Argparse is part of my problem with Python! I can never remember the weird ways it wants to collect all these attributes and features, so I'm always leafing through manual pages or googling for examples. Same for if I'm modifying existing Argparse code, I have no idea how to make it do what I want. It can do a lot for you, but it's a pain in the ass to use.

It's so much easier to write a simple usage() function that has all help text in one big block, and Getopt with a case block. Anyone can just look at it and edit it without ever looking up documentation.

dndurbah• 1 year ago

Much prefer Perl, I can actually get things done quickly

Python lets you just nest data structures without having to twist your brain. You want a tuple in a list in a dictionary value: you just write it down and can access it with a unified notation. Bam. No reference madness and thinking about contexts. It's a big part of what I typically need to get things done quickly and understand how I did it 5 years later. That has to count for something. Python is boring in that sense, Perl is fun. But that's exactly my problem with it. It's too clever for it's own good and writing it does things to your brain (well at least mine).

fireflash38• 1 year ago

Major downside to dictionaries being so useful in python... Everyone uses dictionaries everywhere. I'm so happy for dataclasses and attr, because having to check that str keys are right without ugly ass constants is miserable.

kstrauser4• 1 year ago

That's what got me off Perl. I loved it and was skeptical about Python, but one time after trying it for a week or so, I wondered what it would look like to pass a dict of lists of dicts into a function, then reference items inside it. My first try worked: I made a dict, with a list inside it, and a dict inside that list, and passed it as an argument without any sigils or reference decorators or anything.

That was about the time I stopped using Perl for any new projects. I never wanted to go back.

0xbadcafebee4• 1 year ago

Perl also lets you nest data structures, no brain twisting involved. Perl doesn't have Tuples natively but you can add them with a module. You can also nest objects in complex data structures.

  perl <<'EOF'
  my $object = bless sub { my ($s) = @_; if ($s eq "thingy") { return("hello world!") } else { return("goodbye world!") } };
  my %hash1  = ( baz => "here we go", foo => $object );
  my @array1 = ( undef, undef, undef, \%hash1 );
  my %hash2  = ( bar => \@array1 );
  my $reference = \%hash2;

  print( $reference->{bar}->[3]->{baz}, "\n" );
  print( $reference->{bar}->[3]->{foo}->('thingy') , "\n" );
  print( $reference->{bar}->[3]->{foo}->('something') , "\n" );
  EOF
  here we go
  hello world!
  goodbye world!

Perl being Perl, TMTOWTDI, but you can enforce your own style using linters and formatters.

bobsmooth• 1 year ago

The best part about python is that there's a library for everything.

milin• 1 year ago

Have you met Java?

dapperdrake17• 1 year ago

"Only in my web browser."

Those were the days…

mekoka• 1 year ago

When you say "I actually can get things done quickly", does that include reading that same source a year from now?

kelvinjps10• 1 year ago

Python is a language that the standard lib is big enough that you don't need dependencies

dapperdrake17• 1 year ago

Technically, C or assembly also fulfill this "requirement".

There seems to very few smart people who agree with this in practice, however.

jhasse• 1 year ago

I need JSON with comments and trailing commas

CraigJPerry2• 1 year ago

I keep meaning to write something like this but exploring the “how simple can you make it” angle - a lot of my world is kube (which is great in the right scenario) but could you shave complexity out of a stack designed for solo dev rapid iteration:

e.g. rather than:

  > It’s important not to do any heavy data processing steps in the project-ui … we keep the browser application light while delegating the heavy lifting and business logic to the server

Chomp the complexity, serve HTML from the backend directly

  > ty

Im curious where ty goes but for a min-complexity stack i couldnt spend complexity tokens on pre release tools

  > pydantic … dataclasses

One or the t’other, plus i’ll forever confuse myself: is it post_init (dataclasses) or is it post_model_init (pydantic) - i had to check!

  > docker

if we already have uv, could we get away without docker? uv sync can give an experience almost akin to static compiled binaries with the right setup. Its not going to handle volumes etc so if you're using docker features, this concept isnt going to fly. If you're not wedded to docker though, can you get away with just uv in dev and prod? in an enterprise prob not, i wouldn't expect to be able to download deps in prod. For flying solo though…

  > compose

You’ve a frontend, a backend and presumably a database. Could you get away with just uv to manage your backend and a local sqlite db?

So a broadly feature comparable stack for rapid iteration with less complexity but still all the bells and whistles so you dont need to cook everything yourself, might look like:

  - uv
  - fastapi + jinja + htmx + surreal + picocss
  - sqlite

You could probably sketch a path to hyper scale if you ever needed it:

  - v1 = the above stack
  - v2 = swap sqlite for postgres, now you unlocked multiple writers and horizontal scaling, maybe py-pglite for test envs so you can defer test-containers adoption for one more scaling iteration. WAL streaming would add some complexity to this step but worth it
  - v3 = introduce containers, a container registry and test-containers. I dont think you really unlock much in this step for all that additional complexity though…
  - v4 = rke2 single node cluster, no load balancer needed yet
  - v5 = scale to triple node, we need a load balancer too
  - v6 = add agent nodes to the rke cluster
  - v7 = can you optimise costs, maybe rewrite unchanging parts in a more resource efficient stack
  …

jackbravo• 1 year ago

if you want to serve HTML from the backend, why not use FastHTML then ;-)

CraigJPerry2• 1 year ago

i experimented with it, i’m a fan of the concept. Ironically the bit i thought id like most (swap jinja extends shenanigans for just composing functions or callables more generally) is the bit that i didnt warm to. I dont really know why, on paper it ticks boxes for me. In practice i felt slow.

mmcnl3• 1 year ago

Ofcourse the most used programming language in the world is not a pain to use. How could it be #1 if it was?

callc4• 1 year ago

Funnily enough, I made the opposite switch recently, and am also liking it.

My thoughts about python here: https://calvinlc.com/p/2025/06/10/thank-you-and-goodbye-pyth...

Next time I get into Python I’ll try uv, ruff, ty.

frollogaston19• 1 year ago

I switched from Python to JS for backend stuff a while back, thoroughly enjoying it. I agree that "Python installation and package management is broken," but the async stuff was the biggest improvement to productivity. Yes I know Python got asyncio, but there's a big difference between having one well-accepted way of doing things vs multiple competing, incompatible ways, where the good one has the least momentum.

The rest is small stuff that adds up like Py whitespace scoping, or Py imports somehow not taking relative paths, or JS object syntax is nicer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44544029

BiteCode_dev3• 1 year ago

ty is still in alpha, I wouldn't recommend it yet. It's fast but has many false positives. In the words of charlie himself: https://bsky.app/profile/crmarsh.com/post/3lp2xikab222w

uv + ruff (for formatting AND linting) is a killer combo, though.

And the more you use uv, the most you discover incredible stuff you can do with it that kills so many python gotchas like using it in the shebang with inline deps or the wonders of "--with":

https://www.bitecode.dev/p/uv-tricks

frollogaston19• 1 year ago

I was like, switched from what, then eventually found a footnote "I used to be mostly a Java/JavaScript/R kind of guy"

osigurdson3• 1 year ago

> I prefer to use a monorepo structure

There is nothing more annoying than tons of little repos all of which containing tiny projects with a few hundred lines of code but (of course) you need most / all of them to do anything. Use a mono repo until there is some obvious reason to split it up imo.

sethammons2• 1 year ago

in my experience, repo by "area" works the best. This usually means by team, but you don't want a team restructure to cause code relocation issues. And, yes, only when the org pressures push for it.

On the flip side, we have an org with 50+ teams and our operations team is pinning for a monorepo. They are just fine with one team's push forcing N teams to have an unexpected deploy and recycling of caches, connections, etc. Not to mention what will happen when team A doesn't have time to deal with team B's merge due to other org pressures.

osigurdson3• 1 year ago

Why do they want a mono repo though? What are the problems with the current situation.

MonkeyClub• 1 year ago

I got the impression that TFA speaks of a monorepo in the sense of not splitting the backend and the frontend into two different repos.

For personal projects, though, I get the value of an actual small projects monorepo.

osigurdson3• 1 year ago

I'm not talking about personal projects. If you have <100 people, mono repo imo.

bognition• 1 year ago

I’m on board with most of this. The one suggestion I’d add is to replace “make” with “just”

underdeserver4• 1 year ago

I hear about it every now and again and I can't seem to grok the benefit. What's the killer feature over make?

BeetleB4• 1 year ago

If you're an expert in make and already have a Makefile, I would not recommend switching to just for that project.

The benefit of just is that it's designed to be a command runner, whereas make is designed to be a build tool. justfile syntax is much simpler and more ergonomic. It also has nice features: Private recipes, submodules, recipes that you can specify to run only in a particular OS (we use the same justfile for both Windows and Linux), writing your recipes in a language other than your shell language, and many many other niceties.

A new user can start doing "advanced" stuff in just in a couple of hours. They'll take a lot longer if trying to do it via make.

kstrauser4• 1 year ago

First, I grok make. I'm saying this from a position of familiarity, not of ignorance and fear.

Make is great at compiling code in languages that don't have bespoke build systems. If you want to compile a bunch of C, awesome. For building a Rust or JavaScript project, no way. Those have better tooling of their own.

So for the last 15 years or so, I've used make as a task runner (like "make test" shelling out to "cargo test", or "make build" calling "cargo build", etc.). As a task runner... it kinda sucks. Of course it's perfectly capable of running anything a shell script can run, but it was designed for compiling large software projects and has a lot of implicit structure around doing that.

Just doesn't try to be a build system. It's optimized for running tasks. Here, that means it provides a whole lot of convenient functions for path manipulation and other common scripty things. It also adds dozens of quality-of-life features that devs might not even realize they wanted.

For example, consider this trivial justfile:

  # Delete old docs
  clean:
      rm -rf public

  # This takes arguments
  hello name:
      @echo Hello, {{name}}

If you're in a directory with it and run `just --list`, it'll show you the list of targets in that file:

  $ just --list
  Available recipes:
      clean      # Delete old docs
      hello name # This takes arguments

That second recipe takes a required command line argument:

  $ just hello
  error: Recipe `hello` got 0 arguments but takes 1
  usage:
      just hello name

  $ just hello underdeserver
  Hello, underdeserver

You can do these things in make! I've seen it! Just doesn't add things that were impossible before. But I guarantee you it's a lot harder to implement them in make than it is in just, where they're happy native features.

There are a zillion little niceties like this. Just doesn't try to do everything make does. It just concentrates on the smaller subset of things you'd put in .PHONY targets, and makes them really, really ergonomic to use.

You wouldn't use just to replace make in a large, complicated build. I would unhesitatingly recommend it for wrapping common targets in repos of newer languages, so that `just clean build test` does the same things whether you're in Python or TS or Rust or whatever, and you don't want to hack around all of make's quirks just to build a few simple entry points.

pletnes2• 1 year ago

Just is fantastic for any project - also non-code ones!

tk90• 1 year ago

Is there a Rust equivalent to this? I'd like to dive into a rust "api_starter" as someone with mostly NodeJS experience!

noncoml• 1 year ago

Switched to python from what? R? Java? Javascript?

yunwal3• 1 year ago

For me, python is the closest thing to writing pseudocode that functions. Every time I have the instinct to gloss over a thing when writing it down (because it feels obvious in my head), it turns out that python has an intuitive abstraction for it.

Coming from a mathy background I found it incredibly satisfying, although I’ve come around to other languages since.

odyssey73• 1 year ago

As a mathy person myself, I find the OOP leaning difficult to think about. Better equational reasoning, better lambdas, fewer side effects to worry about, avoiding mutation so that I can define something and still know what it is later during runtime, those are what help me think clearly. To me OOP is about the furthest paradigm from math that I’ve used.

dapperdrake17• 1 year ago

OOP, especially the modern take, feels pretty far from just about anything.

Inheritence should have stayed esoteric. Composition is closer to reality.

Relations and functions and values are way closer to applications than OOP seems to be.

aryehof• 1 year ago

Well it’s not about math. Stick to lines of code, functions and modules for that. Use it for abstract data types, frameworks and modeling.

fastasucan4• 1 year ago

Its quite easy to avoid OOP though.

Quitschquat• 1 year ago

Which package manager should I be using in my Python? I only just heard of UV

deepsun4• 1 year ago

I prefer to use a monorepo structure

Worked at a company where that approach lead to huge unwieldy structure that no one dared to touch to not break anything other teams are working on. The problem was not so much the repo, but dependencies structure (like single requirements.txt for the whole repo) and build scripts.

In theory it should've worked great -- you only need to update a dependency once and be sure all the code has the most recent security patches. In reality everyone was afraid to touch it, because it will break someone's else code. Monorepos work great only if you have serious NIH syndrome (Google).

I actually started appreciating damned micro-services there, as long as each service just reflects organization team structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law

nijave8• 1 year ago

Sounds more like a monolith. You can do microservices with separate requirements in a monorepo. We have one setup at work using pantsbuild (eh the tool is a bit quirky) but it's much nicer than constantly spinning up new git repos and CI pipelines for small services/utilities

That said, I think service-per-team is a good pattern

luxuryballs• 1 year ago

switching from what?

Ohkay2• 1 year ago

So yeah, Python is powerful, and it couples very well with the now ubiquitous VSCode editor.

I always found vscode lacking for Python and C compared to pycharm and clion. The latter just work without fiddling with config files.

PNewling• 1 year ago

Funny enough I feel the other way about JetBrains IDEs. They * seem * super powerful, but there is always a lot of config that needs to go into them if I'm doing app, infra, and pipeline work. (Edit, not saying they aren't powerful, just more that as coming into them I'm never sure how to wield it the best out of the box)

In my experience (not saying this is universal), the folks that like JetBrains IDEs came from java/intellij backgrounds, where I hear it really shines.

This all might be a skill issue, as almost all my professional projects have been VSCode based, but since I've only worked at smaller places I definitely can't rule out this was because it was easier to set things up than to fight for Fin to get us all licences.

In your opinion, what makes PyCharm (or CLion if you want to add that in) 'just work'? Do you think it is because you've used it for so long and just know the ins-and-outs? Or is there something you see that they have and VSCode doesn't?

I've always been curious about this as someone who hasn't had a lot of professional exposure to the JetBrains world.

Ohkay2• 1 year ago

The things that just work that I look for are mouseover to get info on an identifier (local or external), right click to go to the definition, and running code in the debugger with a click. Maybe I just don’t know how to set that up in vscode; I’m a company of one and don’t have a coworker to ask how to do it. My Python work was just making requests, analyzing the data and outputting results to csv’s. This was replaced by Rust and then C. And the C is 60k loc as it does much more. In Clion when you open a cmake project it automatically understands your project structure from the cmake files and provides those need-to-have features I listed.

dapperdrake17• 1 year ago

Jet brains was so slow on my machines that I got to experience the speed of a physical teletype, decades after they went out of fashion.

mdaniel2• 1 year ago

"Just work" is certainly subjective, but the introspection in all the JetBrains products are what make them ferocious. If one has never heard of all the 18 quadrillion lint tools before, you can immediately get value from opening a file in PyCharm and having it point out the ways it is going to fail on you, including one of my favorite tricks that no VSCode+lint horseshit has ever thought about trying:

  import re
  import sys
  if re.match(r"[A-Za-z}", sys.stdin):
      print("ok")

PyCharm will spot that error immediately, no insaneo configuration required

PyCharm Professional also gets into the SQL side of things:

    with connect(":memory:") as conn:
        c = conn.cursor()
        c.execute("SELECT * FROM oops WHERE NAME IN ('alpha, 'beta')")

instantly spotted, no configuration required

I was going to be cute and use json.loads as an example, but it seems somewhere along the way they botched the fact that the first argument to json.loads is a fucking JSON string. But, it does allow showcasing that you can have PyCharm syntax check the "inner" language of any string literal you'd like via their language injection annotations:

  import json

  # language=json
  bogus = """{"this is subtly wrong"; true}"""

  json.loads(bogus)

  # and the same with tomllib:

  import tomllib
  # language=toml
  bogus = """
  [alpha]
  beta = []onoz
  """
  tomllib.loads(bogus)

  # or, if you have some tricky internal stuff

  def do_the_thing(
    # language=sql
    s: str
  ):
      with connect(something) as conn:
          c = conn.cursor()
          c.execute(s)

  do_the_thing("SELECT * FROM oops WHERE NAME IN ('alpha, 'beta')")
  #            ^^^ also gets syntax checked because it knows the first arg is SQL

indigodaddy• 1 year ago

And guess what’s the de facto programming language for AI?

I thought nodejs/typescript seemed to be the default that most LLMs choose? Or is that just v0/lovable/replit? (although replit seems better about going non-js sometimes)

ropable• 1 year ago

I came to this comment thread expecting developer bikeshedding and I was not disappointed.

More seriously: it's fascinating and interesting to see how closely this article mirrors my own Python project layout. The tools and practices have come a long way over the last decade and good developer standards have a way of becoming the defacto in organic fashion.

IMO uv has won the race to be the new standard for Python environment management (Poetry gave it a solid try, but lost on speed).

tomku• 1 year ago

If you use Make as a task runner like in the article, please make sure that you're also declaring your tasks as .PHONY targets: https://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/html_node/Phony-Tar...

Otherwise, the existence of a file or folder with the same name as your task ("test", for example) will stop that task from being run, which might be very annoying if you're using the Makefile as part of a script or CI or something where you won't notice the "Nothing to be done for..." message.

dapperdrake17• 1 year ago

Oh, is that the actual reason it’s for?

IIRC the info pages just say that it is for targets that lack a file. This is way easier to remember.

kjgkjhfkjf• 1 year ago

Nice article, but this command doesn't activate the venv that's managed by uv.

    uv venv activate

The command actually creates a new venv in a dir called "activate". The correct way to activate the venv is like this:

    source .venv/bin/activate

globular-toast5• 1 year ago

One of the key principles of uv is you don't activate the venv. You just run everything through uv every time, e.g `uv run pytest` or whatever.

nikolayasdf123• 1 year ago

YAML, Python, Make... — only I see issues and a pattern with this choice of toolset?

IshKebab4• 1 year ago

They occupy a space where things work most of the time but jank and footguns are a way of life. That seems to be where most people live unfortunately.

seydor• 1 year ago

It feels like most people are coming into python from other languages. Wonder what is the emigration rate.

darkoob12• 1 year ago

If you're working on machine learning the most economic choice is Python.

But weiting a processing pipeline with Python is frustrating if you have worked with C# concurrency.

I figured the best option is Celery and you cannot do it without an external broker. Celery is a mess. I really hate it.

nijave8• 1 year ago

Agree. I think it's improved a bit but Celery is frustrating as the defacto job/queue solution. A lot of the defaults make it unreliable (it can lose jobs if workers crash or don't shutdown cleanly)

I'm hoping the existence of free-threading will push for more first-class concurrency primitives. Concurrent Futures is nice until you need a concurrent-safe data structure besides a queue

machiaweliczny3• 1 year ago

Agree that celery is a mess and it doesn't work well with async (Asyncio) python. I think version 6 maybe will support it sometime.

I also had a lot of problem due to async primitives with sqlalchemy - there's some tricky stuff with asyncio.gather vs TaskGroup and how sqlalchemy session works with it to be able to compose code easily.

bvan• 1 year ago

What was your language of choice prior to Python?

mark_l_watson• 1 year ago

I get the “actually liking it part.”

I have been enjoying Lisp languages since the late 1970s, and today it makes me happy using Common Lisp and Racket in the same way as when I stood in a forest very early this morning drinking coffee makes me happy.

But, Python is also a fun language and phrases like “good enough” and “actually liking it” are valid.

I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

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