USPS' long-awaited new mail truck makes its debut to rave reviews from carriers

https://apnews.com/article/postal-service-next-generation-delivery-vehicle-a2ebbfc7afec0eea2e036eef93bee4d9

by achristmascarl • 2 years ago

292 349 2 years ago

apnews.com

casefields• 2 years ago

They look ugly as hell but if it works and makes carriers job easier and more efficient then it’s a success in my book.

pishpash3• 2 years ago

Will these not roll over easily?

MBCook15• 2 years ago

The EV version would certainly have a very low center of gravity. The gas one wouldn’t be as good but they must have tested for that right?

slowmovintarget• 2 years ago

That's the difference between UX and mere aesthetics. Great UX sometimes looks goofy, until you live with it for a bit.

23B12• 2 years ago

Great UX should aesthetic and functional. It's never a choice between the two, especially these days.

Kye2• 2 years ago

The USPS has a podcast with an episode on the process behind it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShhBZVE68-0&list=PL1NEtJgO49...

philwelch4• 2 years ago

Is there an explanation for why the USPS needs custom-designed vehicles built by a defense contractor when every other last mile delivery company just buys ordinary vans and trucks?

drfuchs• 2 years ago

UPS trucks are custom designed for UPS; they used to have a nice documentary about it. New Amazon trucks around where I live are clearly custom (and also not very pretty, if you ask me).

robohoe• 2 years ago

New Amazon trucks are built by Rivian.

pishpash3• 2 years ago

None have huge windows like this. Are the tasks that different?

petejansson• 2 years ago

Last mile delivery companies don't handle the volume of non-package traffic that the USPS does. At that scale, tailoring can really pay off in productivity.

queuebert• 2 years ago

Are you saying that the USPS delivering a handful of advertisements in addition to the odd package has greater demands than UPS/Fedex/Amazon delivering the bulk of the large packages in our society?

enriquec• 2 years ago

seriously - what a waste of money. Guaranteed the maintenance is rife with corrupt arrangements. Also guaranteed that almost any American car manufacturer (Rivian, Tesla, Ford, etc.) would have done a far better job for far less. Did they even pretend to have a fair bidding system? Oshkosh Defense? Seriously?! What a joke.

Kye2• 2 years ago

How is this any different from the Grumman Long Life Vehicle it replaces? It worked well last time.

thowawatp302• 2 years ago

Do you have any evidence or do you just feel like that?

MBCook15• 2 years ago

There was a whole thing with proposals from multiple companies. Did any of those companies even bid? I don’t know.

It was all in the open. It’s not like they were just picked in secret without anyone else getting any consideration.

RIMR3• 2 years ago

Guaranteed the maintenance is rife with corrupt arrangements.

Any evidence of this, or are is this just verbal diarrhea?

Also guaranteed that almost any American car manufacturer (Rivian, Tesla, Ford, etc.) would have done a far better job for far less.

Let's do the actual math.

Amazon's Custom Rivian Van costs $90k/vehicle.

The USPS has invested $9.6B to commission 106,480 new USPS vans.

That comes out to... $90k/vehicle.

Oshkosh Defense? Seriously?! What a joke.

Yeah, the company that makes the majority of our military vehicles is unprepared for the task at making mail trucks. You're a joke...

helgie• 2 years ago

Yes, there was a bidding process, you can see some of the entrants that lost here: https://jalopnik.com/here-are-all-the-mail-trucks-that-didn-...

In any case, even if the process was terribly corrupt, I'm not sure why that would have you so bothered. Last sentence from the USPS press release on Oshkosh winning: "The Postal Service receives no tax dollars for operating expenses and relies on the sale of postage, products and services to fund its operations." https://about.usps.com/newsroom/national-releases/2021/0223-...

Both results are on the first page of a google search for 'usps truck bids'.

wannacboatmovie• 2 years ago

Because they don't deliver to mailboxes on the curb opposite the driver in a LHD vehicle?

aeturnum3• 2 years ago

Name one last mile delivery company that doesn't have a purpose built van supplier? Amazon is getting Rivian to build theirs (after trying buying off the shelf)[1]. UPS uses a ford chassis but custom body work[2]. Fedex is perhaps the closest as they work with many manufacturers, but they have their vehicles custom built for them[3].

[1] https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/transportation/everything-y...

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Trucks/comments/ppo5tu/what_model_a...

[3] https://trucksauthority.com/who-makes-fedex-trucks/

sofixa3• 2 years ago

French, German, Dutch, Swiss, British, Spanish etc etc etc post office, alongside DHL/FedEx/TNT/etc. in each of those?

voytec• 2 years ago

They are testing "ordinary" vans as well. They purchased 6 Canoo vans[0] for testing and announced plan to buy 9000 Ford E-Transit vehicles[1] earlier this year.

[0] https://www.press.canoo.com/press-release/canoo-reaches-agre...

[1] https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2024...

bombcar2• 2 years ago

They want to be able to buy the exact same vehicles for the next 40 or 50 years.

dzhiurgis2• 2 years ago

How is that a good idea?

eesmith• 2 years ago

UPS doesn't just buy ordinary vans and trucks.

'UPS Orders 10,000 Electric Vans from EV Maker You Probably Haven't Heard of' at https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a30716811/ups-order...

"Together, our teams [at Arrival] have been working hard to create bespoke electric vehicles, based on our flexible skateboard platforms that meet the end-to-end needs of UPS from driving, loading/unloading and back-office operations,"

krisoft• 2 years ago

Didn't Arrival go bankrupt? https://fortune.com/europe/2024/02/06/british-ev-maker-value...

I think I have seen a youtuber who was buying some of the prototype UPS trucks on an auction: https://youtu.be/63R3mt61g_Y

tocs32• 2 years ago

It is always a little refreshing to hear of a successful government project. Congratulations.

I was skeptical of Louis Dejoy's appointment to the USPS but maybe it will turn out OK.

MBCook15• 2 years ago

I’m still very skeptical. I think we’re at this point due to pressure, the failing old fleet, and lawsuits.

But I’m glad this is happening. I remember all the discussions around it but have never seen one in person so I had no idea what the status was.

To know they’re out there is great. I can’t wait until they get to my area. And I’d like to hear an update after carriers have really lived with them for a year and really know the flaws and benefits inside and out.

I’ll miss the old Grumman LLVs though. They are the post office to me, being there basically all my life. Such an unmistakeable symbol. But it’s time has come.

kelnos5• 2 years ago

I’ll miss the old Grumman LLVs though. They are the post office to me, being there basically all my life.

Same. I was 6 years old when they started rolling out, and don't really remember the previous vehicles. While I actually like (or at least don't mind) the look of the new trucks, they give me that feeling when I'm traveling in a different country, and the normal/standard service vehicles look different and "weird".

falcolas• 2 years ago

I’ll miss the old Grumman LLVs though. They are the post office to me, being there basically all my life. Such an unmistakeable symbol. But it’s time has come.

Living in a rural area, the mail car was a right-hand-drive station wagon with their spare tire on the roof (to make more room for mail inside). My entire childhood, that is what I saw delivering mail. Now? Now it's an Outback with the spare on the roof...

kelnos5• 2 years ago

I'm more than skeptical, still. DeJoy would prefer to scale down operations and privatize as much of mail delivery as possible, as well as raise rates for regular mailpieces in (what I consider) a misguided effort to make the USPS more self-sustainable financially. I fundamentally disagree with his basic stance here: the post is a public service, and should not be run like a business. Certainly we should eliminate waste and inefficiency where possible (something most governments could stand to do in many areas), but not at the expense of service, and not by making mail costs more expensive for average people. (Jacking up rates on bulk mail is something I can get behind, though.)

I see his capitulation around EVs and in other areas not as a change of heart, or as a realization of what's actually the right thing, but as resignation (the lawsuits must have been exhausting) and self-preservation. While POTUS can't fire the postmaster general, the board of governors can, and if/when Democrats have a majority on the board, he could be voted out of a job if he's not playing ball. I very much expect that the next time a Republican is in the White House, if he's still in the position, he'll act much like he did when appointed, since he can assume he's relatively safe if board of governors seats open up.

Ultimately, though, it does seem that the USPS is moving in (IMO) the right direction for now, and DeJoy does deserve some credit for that, even if this isn't what he envisioned originally.

xracy• 2 years ago

I wish we had a metric of "acceptable government waste, because we're providing a public service."

When we provide public services the goal needs to be that we provide them to everyone within a reasonable cost-basis. Too many gov't programs are the subject of budget cuts because people cry out "Waste!" when in reality the amount you save by addressing that waste undercuts the impact of the program.

There are so many basic programs where we cut people off because of "WASTE!", and we'd be better served trying to offer broad services at a base-level, and addressing individual needs more targeted. Feels like a Mountain vs. Valley approach. Gov't programs should be Mountains that we build up with a wide-base to cover the wide needs and that we can address smaller needs with more targeted approaches. Rather than the valley approach of wide need, and we cut support based on where we think we see waste.

MetaWhirledPeas8• 2 years ago

I agree. Considering the old fleet had a measly 150 mile range I would expect the vast majority to be replaced by EVs, not a begrudging 50%. "Rave reviews" was not the bar. Just having AC will get rave reviews from a postal worker.

Do we care about electrification or not? Because it really seems like we don't. A huge opportunity wasted by an EV hater, is what it sounds like to me.

And to people suggesting it would be difficult: of course it would! You know what else is difficult? Designing a never-before-seen ICE truck. It's all difficult!

jerlam3• 2 years ago

The new mail truck program started in 2015 before Dejoy started in 2020. Contracts for prototypes were awarded in 2016, testing and evaluation started in 2017, and the production contract was signed in 2021. I wouldn't credit Dejoy too much.

tocs32• 2 years ago

Thanks for the info. I thought it was a little strange that he did this (Trump appointee, conflict of interest, EVs). We will see what the future brings.

Dwedit• 2 years ago

Big bumper in the front.

MBCook15• 2 years ago

I wonder what’s up there in the EV version. Maybe more battery?

jerlam3• 2 years ago

They are probably not putting one of the most expensive and unrepairable components in the bumper. The bumpers look ugly because they aren't integrated into the car body/metawork, and can be more easily replaced.

I do wonder if bumpers that low will have mismatch problems with higher modern cars (aka SUVs and trucks), whose bumpers may go right over the mail trucks' bumpers and cause major damage.

whamlastxmas• 2 years ago

Quick online search suggests it’s for pedestrian safety and preventing damage which makes sense, mail trucks are driving super close to stuff all the time

RIMR3• 2 years ago

Does anyone know where one might go to buy the retired vehicles?

jerlam3• 2 years ago

Possibly government surplus: https://www.gsaauctions.gov/auctions/home

Although I suspect since the transition will take a long time, the "retired" vehicles will be kept for spare parts where the old vehicles are still being used, and many will still be kept just in case.

lucifargundam• 2 years ago

https://www.govplanet.com/?h=

lgdskhglsa• 2 years ago

you may want to watch this review first :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3g2p4KKS74

WarOnPrivacy• 2 years ago

Does anyone know where one might go to buy the retired vehicles?

My son had looked into this and it looks like you can't.

Some of it is due to the LLV being manufactured with exemptions from certain US car standards. Some of it is due to a obligation (with Grumman IIRC) that the LLV be destroyed after retirement.

We settled for a 31k mi 1992 Buick with the same Iron Duke engine.

RIMR3• 2 years ago

Damn, if the intent of electrifying the fleet is to be more ecologically friendly, allowing these older vehicles to be recirculated seems like a compelling thing to do. I suppose the weird configuration of these vehicles doesn't make it a very good option as a personal vehicle, so destroying them is probably just as ecological as selling them to hobbyists like me. It will be sad to see these things disappear from existence though. They've been a part of my life since I was a kid.

bdowling• 2 years ago

If you did buy one, you might not be able to license it in your state. Your mileage may vary.

Note: USPS is exempt from state regulations because it is a U.S. federal government agency. That is also why they don't have state license plates; they don't need them.

jawns• 2 years ago

I was always under the impression that the lack of air conditioning in these vehicles had less to do with budget constraints and more with process constraints. If they're driving mailbox to mailbox, they'll likely want to keep their window down, and they frequently need to get in and out of the vehicle to deliver packages. Wouldn't that lead to a lot of dissipation of cooled air?

MBCook15• 2 years ago

It may have made their already abysmal mileage even worse. If it nocked off 2 MPG that would be an almost 25% reduction.

Glad the poor postal carriers are finally getting it. Having some in sweltering heat, even if you’re always in and out, is better than just a little fan.

kelnos5• 2 years ago

A/C with windows down and frequent door opening is still going to be a lot more comfortable for the driver than a crappy fan.

Even if that makes it wasteful, and makes the vehicles more expensive to operate, our postal workers deserve some comfort while they're driving around all day, 5-6 days a week.

analog312• 2 years ago

I admit that A/C with windows down is how I use it when driving around town. Just for when I get into a hot car. When the car cools down, I turn the A/C off.

I do run A/C on highway trips, partly because I suspect that the noise with windows open can cause hearing damage.

non-• 2 years ago

Noisy and fuel-inefficient (9 mpg), the Grummans are costly to maintain.
Environmentalists were outraged when DeJoy announced that 90% of the next-gen vehicles in the first order would be gas-powered.

I was gonna say they environmentalists were wrong for this, if the new trucks get significantly better mpg performance that's still a big win.

But apparently with the AC running the new trucks still only get 9mpg.[1][2]

[1] https://earthjustice.org/press/2022/message-delivered-usps-c.... [2] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/02/the-epa-and-white-house...

dgfitz3• 2 years ago

I can’t quickly find the mileage with the AC not running. More to the point, it is mostly a myth that running the AC uses a significant amount of fuel. The compressor is usually driven by the serpentine belt, and adding the clutch plate for the AC into that system does not add significant drag. A little, yes.

FateOfNations• 2 years ago

It can have some added effects for more modern vehicles. For example, if the AC is running in my car, the engine auto start/stop is disabled.

anamexis• 2 years ago

I would assume it's not the clutch plate that adds significant drag, but the AC compressor itself.

mrguyorama2• 2 years ago

it is mostly a myth that running the AC uses a significant amount of fuel

What?

Modern car AC compressors use about 1 HP (.7kW) of power, with a duty cycle highly dependent on temperature but if you break the seal periodically, like by opening the window to put mail in a box, it will be running 100% of the time even on an 80 degree day. For a hatchback at 70mph that's up to 10% of your energy usage. It's much harder to quantify for stop and go traffic because you have a bimodal situation of either zero HP generation or like 50 HP to accelerate in slow city traffic, but all ICE vehicles use more energy (have less economy) in city driving than highway driving, so on average it's using a higher percentage of your energy consumption in city driving.

So turning on the AC on a hot day will reduce your economy car's mileage from 33 to 30, your truck's mileage from 12 to 10.8, and your Prius from 48 to 44 and worse for city driving. The numbers they claim in the above studies suggest they are using a higher capacity compressor to deal with the air volume constantly being opened to the outside.

wnevets• 2 years ago

Oshkosh's proposed vehicle will only average 8.6 mpg (27.35 L/100 km) according to the EPA, a barely noticeable improvement on the current Grumman-made LLV trucks, which average 8.2 mpg (28.68 L/100 km).

Such a wasted opportunity

MBCook15• 2 years ago

It’s a really hard task to make an efficient gas vehicle that stops and starts constantly. They’re just really bad at it.

Sure you can make it a full hybrid but then you’re like 80% of the way there to a battery vehicle anyway.

Also note that while the new one isn’t that much better it is providing air-conditioning. And the whole truck looks bigger so I suspect it weighs more. So the engine is doing more work than in the LLV.

vlovich1233• 2 years ago

Wasted opportunity for what?

In December 2022, USPS announced that 75% of its initial order of 60,000 NGDVs would be BEVs. By 2026, all new NGDVs ordered will be delivered as BEVs.

So the should be very few of these ICE variants around presumably primarily in areas where the charging capacity is impractical to install. I don’t know how 8.6 mpg fares against similar trucks to know whether better ICE alternatives were possible and hybrid would likely add significant weight, cost and maintenance for likely little comparative value.

ortusdux2• 2 years ago

Here is the original environmental impact study from USPS - https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS%20NGDV%20Draft%20EIS....

"14.7 miles per gallon (mpg) (without air conditioning) 8.6 mpg (with air conditioning)"

The same document estimates off the shelf commercial right hand drive vehicles averaging 6.3 mpg if used fleet-wide.

jdashg• 2 years ago

Same MPG but now with AC is a huge win!

sofixa3• 2 years ago

"14.7 miles per gallon (mpg) (without air conditioning) 8.6 mpg (with air conditioning)"

Both of those are absolutely embarrassing, did they use a 1950s Soviet tank engine? According to a quick Google search, a Ford Transit (bigger sized but not optimised for post delivery van) gets 33-46 mpg depending on the engine.

Yeah, a post vehicle will start/stop much more, but that's where start/stop tech, and maybe even hybrid come in.

jmclnx• 2 years ago

Environmentalists were outraged when DeJoy announced that 90% of the next-gen vehicles in the first order would be gas-powered.

As they should be. Most of my family are mail carriers and as a kid I rode with them a few times for the day. Electric Vehicles would have been perfect for this work, but DeJoy probably was lobbied (in Europe that is called bribed) and bowed to the fossil fuel industry.

This is from someone who believes EVs are only really viable for local errand running (right now).

MBCook15• 2 years ago

Even ignoring lobbying, it's his party's (and the president at the time's) very outspoken position that EVs are some green nut's pipe dream being shoved down their throats.

It likely would have been extremely bad for him personally politically to do what ended up happening on his own, as opposed to after pressure from congress and lawsuits.

ClassyJacket• 2 years ago

How can you possibly believe that? The first weekend I had my model 3 I drove it across two states, since that's where I bought it. It's got every bit of utility my previous ICE car had.

dtagames• 2 years ago

It's unforgivable that the entire fleet was not mandated to be electric from the start, especially given the post office's nationwide network of parking and service areas where they could charge.

Instead, these will burn gas and emit pollutants in neighborhoods while running in stop-and-go mode, the least efficient and most polluting way to drive.

MBCook15• 2 years ago

There are probably places where gas may still make more sense, like extremely cold climates.

The article says they’re going “mostly” electric. I suspect a reverse of what DeJoy with 90% electric would be good. But since he’s still in charge it wouldn’t surprise me if the number was more like 52%.

dzhiurgis2• 2 years ago

Or just buy existing electric van from someone like MB or Rivian.

ars• 2 years ago

You need to visit rural areas. Not everything is a city.

MetaWhirledPeas8• 2 years ago

Rural areas have fewer trucks and therefore require fewer chargers. I'm not seeing the problem here.

If you mean range, the old LLVs don't get much beyond 100 miles of range as it is. For comparison, Amazon's Rivians trucks have a 200 mile range.

m463• 2 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV

hungie• 2 years ago

Love these weird little guys.

monkaiju• 2 years ago

Makes being a mail carrier sound significantly better. Between having AC and a union im almost envious

spike021• 2 years ago

I'm friends with my neighborhood mail carrier and during the summer he's told me the inside of his truck is like being in a tin can. It gets super hot. He tries to park it in shady spots while he's out making runs but that's not always possible.

MarkMarine• 2 years ago

Of my friends that went to 20 years in the military, half of them went to the post office after. You work for 40 years, retire at 58 with 2 pensions and full medical care. You'll never be rich but you probably never worried about losing your job a day in your life.

tomcam2• 2 years ago

I call that rich

lucb1e• 2 years ago

the vehicles have airbags, 360-degree cameras, blind-spot monitoring, collision sensors[, AC,] and anti-lock brakes — all of which are missing on the [old ones].

Woa, is driving without airbags even legal nowadays or do they drive different ones in Germany? I always thought the USPS trucks looked... utilitarian old I guess, so like they shipped them over to keep the historical branding, but I don't know if that's actually the case

Another interesting bit of the article:

the costs of installing thousands of charging stations and upgrading electrical service, made [electric delivery vehicles] unaffordable at a time [...]. That led to a deal in which the [US] government provided $3 billion
[they're buying] 106,000 vehicles through 2028. That included 60,000 next-gen vehicles, 45,000 of them electric models, along with 21,000 other electric vehicles

ghaff7• 2 years ago

Woa, is driving without airbags even legal nowadays

I'm sure new vehicles require them in the US. But there's very wide latitude on safety feature requirements for older vehicles in the US.

bobthepanda• 2 years ago

There’s also often exceptions and issues when it comes to one agency in the government trying to enforce rules on another.

Notably, the death toll on 9/11 was made worse because the state used its authority to override the local building code which would have required more staircases and further spacing of them.

Or any locality trying to enforce payment of parking tickets from higher entities or even their own off duty officers.

hprotagonist• 2 years ago

“it was legal when i bought it, so it’s legal now!”

Qwertious• 2 years ago

There's an exception for quadricycles IIRC (very small cars).

kevin_thibedeau• 2 years ago

You can drive a model-T if you want to. They are lacking any safety features.

Iulioh• 2 years ago

Begin able to only do 40mph is arguably a safety feature

Joel_Mckay• 2 years ago

The top speed of the Model T was 42 mph (68 km/h), but most roads of the time were meant for far slower animal drawn carriages.

The primary danger was plate glass windows shredding the occupants, or the gearbox bushing failing (Fords early transmission designs were interesting.) =3

pohuing• 2 years ago

I have never seen a USPS truck here. And I think all of my imports were delivered by DHL or UPS within Germany.

I don't think USPS drives any trucks in Germany

adgjlsfhk15• 2 years ago

you don't. USPS is US federal government, not a company

Xenoamorphous• 2 years ago

When someone ships something to you from the US via USPS you’ll get it delivered via your local postal service, in this case Deustche Post. And vice-versa.

smnrchrds• 2 years ago

You might be thinking of UPS. USPS doesn't operate outside of the US.

ssl-3• 2 years ago

Are airbags required for driving in Germany?

If a German owns a 1961 BMW Isetta, is it required that it have airbags before it is driven on the roadway?

rightbyte• 2 years ago

No it is not.

mschuster91• 2 years ago

Woa, is driving without airbags even legal nowadays or do they drive different ones in Germany?

German here - as long as your vehicle matches the code requirements back when it was built, it is road legal. You're perfectly fine to ride a pre-WW2 car with only a single side mirror, no rear mirror, no airbags or any other kind of safety feature and no emission controls worth the name.

I still would not recommend it to tour such a piece of history on public roads though.

bombcar2• 2 years ago

This is the case in most jurisdictions (and even the ones that do NOT permit cars older than X years - as I believe Japan does - have exceptions for historical vehicles and other purposes).

standardUser3• 2 years ago

Do school buses even have seatbelts?

joshvm• 2 years ago

Also related, the US mandated backup cameras for new vehicles in 2018 while Europe took until 2022. My uneducated guess from visiting the US is that very few people reverse-park and huge cars/SUVs have poor visibility, so the risk of backup collisions is high. I read somewhere that despite this, a lot of models in the US have had backup cameras for years, well in advance of the mandate.

In Europe, parallel and reverse bay-parking is much more common. At least in the UK, both are testable manoeuvres so everyone at least learns, even if they don't bother later. I've even worked in places where you had to back into spaces, for evacuation reasons. Last time I bought a car in the not too distance past, even ultrasonic sensors cost extra and when hiring vans, only the newest models have backup cams.

mynameishere• 2 years ago

Does anyone know how USPS/UPS/Fedex trucks can start and stop their engines over and over and over without running down the batteries? Do they have 400 amp/hour monsters installed and recharge them at the depot, or what?

syntaxing• 2 years ago

Modern pure ICE cars have “idle-stop” technology. I believe it’s mandatory nowadays for any new pure ICE car in the US. One of the perks of buying hybrid IMO, the engine stopping at every stop is kind of annoying.

datavirtue2• 2 years ago

Yep, a lot of people turn it off due to it lashing the hell out of the timing chain significantly bumping up the $2000-$3000 maintenance schedule, or indeed making it even necessary.

In addition, when the starter goes out it sells for about $1000. Part only.

All of this amounts to dramatically reducing the service life of the engine. Replacing an engine costs a lot of CO2. Some will opt to just junk the beast because a new engine is $10k. I could go on and on. Avoid stop+start tech. It's meant to make ICE so unreliable that you run to an EV to get rid of all that shit mess.

lesuorac• 2 years ago

I'm not sure it's mandatory per-say.

The stop-idle can factor into your mpg so it's an easy way to boost it (which there are requirements about).

Merad• 2 years ago

I don't know the exact answer but when I worked there while in college 20 years ago the package cars were never connected to chargers overnight, nor did they receive any other special attention. I would imagine that they use heavy duty batteries and just spend an enough time driving and idling that it all balances out during the workday.

jakelazaroff2• 2 years ago

The first sentence says they’re not going to win a beauty contest but I think they’re kinda cute! Presumably the low hood helps a lot with visibility.

hypeatei2• 2 years ago

Personally, I think it looks really bad. Especially after seeing a different angle on the Wikipedia page[0].

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV

rustyminnow• 2 years ago

I'll bet it looks fantastic from the inside with those huge windows and tiny hoods.

allenu• 2 years ago

That picture makes it look even cuter to me, like it’s a Pixar character.

It won’t win any beauty contests but I like that they put function over form here.

Edit: corrected my phrasing about function over form. Thanks!

wavefunction• 2 years ago

Michael Jackson "bad" or... These seem people friendly like government is supposed to be.

idiotsecant• 2 years ago

It looks distinctive, in 15 years it will be how everyone imagines mail trucks are supposed to look. That is a universe I like, I think.

tomatotomato37• 2 years ago

Really the only flaw is trying to mirror a conventional car headlight design; if they went with something a bit quirky like an LED grid covering the entire front or something it would become something totally unique.

ArtemZ• 2 years ago

I agree it looks ridiculous. It is sad that such bad design will continue uglification of our streets.

userbinator• 2 years ago

It looks... bizarre, like someone gave a box truck the lowrider treatment. And is that a hint of Chevy I see at the top of the grill, although it's based on a Ford?

mystified5016• 2 years ago

Huh, I think that design would fit right in in Japan, but it's pretty odd by American standards.

I wouldn't say it's bad, but it's definitely a bizarre choice for a US government design.

notatoad3• 2 years ago

i also think they're ugly, but they're ugly in a disarming, endearing sort of way. and maybe it's just becuase i know it's a mail truck which is a useful thing, but i think the ugliness makes me like it.

viburnum• 2 years ago

Yeah, these are awesome. It’s SUVs that are ugly.

agys• 2 years ago

…and dangerous!

adrianmonk• 2 years ago

To me, they look like they are from the movie "Up".

vondur• 2 years ago

If it’s got AC the postal carriers will love it.

OptionOfT• 2 years ago

The gross vehicle weight rating of the NGDV with an ICE, including payload, is 8,501 lb (3,856 kg),[2]: Table 3-1.2 just one pound over the EPA's threshold to be considered a heavy-duty truck, allowing it to avoid more stringent pollution emissions and efficiency standards for light-duty trucks.

Source: https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-new-usps-trucks-would-pr...

Not sure if that's still valid (obviously not for the electric versions), but that is actually insane.

infecto4• 2 years ago

In my opinion these are a huge miss.

Maybe I am overly optimistic but they generally are not carrying a lot of weight, fairy local and lots of stop and starts. Would have been amazing to at least get some hybrids in the mix.

mayneack• 2 years ago

A majority of them are full electric.

akira25012• 2 years ago

generally are not carrying a lot of weight

1000lbs is a lot of weight. Mail routes include package deliveries as well as mail and package pickups. Some business deliveries have large transactions every day.

fairy local and lots of stop and starts.

Mail routes are not identical and there are plenty of rural USPS offices which deliver to the property.

to at least get some hybrids in the mix.

Part of the point is to not have a mix to avoid all the attendant problems that creates.

Spooky232• 2 years ago

I don’t know the details… but my dad was a rural mail carrier for awhile, and the roughness of the driving they do is difficult to understand.

Rural carriers operate their own vehicles. The wear and tear was nuts… for example we would change brake pads every 2-3 weeks.

I think USPS wants to operate vehicles for many years. I’d guess they may have determined that the regen braking or batteries for hybrid couldn’t sustain the harsh conditions within the operating cost envelope.

rodgerd• 2 years ago

In my opinion these are a huge miss.

Oh, really? Can you share your expertise that trumps that of the people who work with them every day?

fwipsy• 2 years ago

There was a huge fight over what proportion of these trucks would be electric. Wikipedia says 75% of the initial order of 60,000 trucks will be electric, and after 2026 they will all be electric.

milesskorpen• 2 years ago

I don't get it. The article says most of the fleet will be electric.

Theodores• 2 years ago

As a kid I had a six hour paper round and a bicycle. I had my newspapers dropped off for me at four stops and nobody ever stole from them before I could get there - imagine that. In total, the mass of papers was about five times my own height, clearly a bit much to carry in one go.

My 'cargo' was heavier than that of the postman, but that was in the days before ecommerce, and the post service (UK) handled packages differently, sending them out in different vehicles to what the letters went out in, if over a certain size.

I also had to go to the door, not a mailbox at the side of the road. I was quicker than the postman with his cumbersome van. I was also quieter and more eco-friendly.

I am not suggesting that the post service in America have teenage lads on bicycles delivering letters and parcels, however, there is a lot to be said for having smaller vehicles.

Assuming I had one of these vehicles for free and all the fuel for it for free, would I have wanted one or been able to do my job quicker?

Probably not, even if scaled down to half the size for UK roads. Maybe my opinion would differ mid winter and if I was middle aged. However, I would not have my stashes in bus stops, all 30 ft of newspapers would be in the van. There would be no incentive to optimise.

Weight is your enemy in the delivery game and these vehicles are huge, yet typically American sized. If carrying a parcel to a door then that is going to be less than ten kilos in most cases, but if we assume 10kg, does that really need a vehicle with stuff weighing 300x upwards?

What they really needed was a range extending EV. These are not Prius style hybrids but they have a generator that runs at optimal RPM to charge the main battery. The original BMW EV, the i3 had this and it was a tech that wasn't really needed since those cars were overpriced and only ever did city journeys where the range extender was not needed.

The range extender can be chucked out as charging infrastructure improves and the battery can be updated to a new one that has more oomph for the same weight/size.

Meph5044• 2 years ago

Hybrids are great until it comes to long term maintenance where you are not having to manage and work on two different systems. Having personal who can work on both electrical and gas has been one of the issues with the hybrid adoption in fleet vehicles with other groups.

Not to say it isn't worth exploring, but I do know it is a common issue when discussed.

unyttigfjelltol• 2 years ago

Government gaming its own regulations.

blahyawnblah• 2 years ago

Military F250/350 all have emission deletes

ProllyInfamous2• 2 years ago

My homestate [Texas] does not require federal/state agencies to follow local building codes.

My new state [Tennessee] just ended government construction inspections.

Pay - to - play, folks.

sieabahlpark• 2 years ago

Nope that's how CAFE standards work. You can thank the EPA for that!

Instead of building more efficient small cars it becomes impossible to make them meet the efficiency requirements without making the car cost so much extra through fines. So instead you just get more "trucks" and SUVs. No more sedans! Those are the vehicles killing the planet!

fshbbdssbbgdd• 2 years ago

Is the limit really 8500 to get into that unregulated category? Small SUVs are very popular and are basically sedans on stilts and weigh a lot less than 8500. So I don’t think you could blame the death of sedans on that rule, if that’s indeed what the rule is.

throwup238• 2 years ago

You can thank Congress for that, not the EPA. They were the ones that required the agency by law to create the separate standards for “non-passenger vehicles” and the weight classes, as well as the other loopholes that enable the shenanigans, like allowing medium passenger vehicles to classify as non-passenger.

akira25012• 2 years ago

Those are the vehicles killing the planet!

That would be boats. Cars or trucks or even semis don't even rank.

coin2• 2 years ago

Not to mention the flex fuel scheme that GM, Ford and Chrysler pulls. CAFE fuel mileage calculations permits ethanol compatible vehicles to assume that it will be driven 50% of the time using E85 ethanol. For the worst gas guzzlers, they add the additional ethanol hardware to get the “lower” fuel mileage. Hence you only see the flex fuel badge on big trucks and SUVs. And ironically, the flex fuel label is really a label that it’s a gas guzzler.

starspangled6• 2 years ago

Private passenger vehicles is under 10% of global CO2 emissions. Electricity and heating is about 4x. Manufacturing and construction 2x, farming 2x, freight 1x. Repurposed light commercial vehicles would be a tiny fraction of those numbers. I suspect they are not what's killing the planet.

dialup_sounds2• 2 years ago

The NGDV is based on the 9500lb Ford Transit, so it's more like they started with a heavy-duty truck and scaled down.

mmis1000• 2 years ago

It does look like a lengthen truck head though.

shawn_w• 2 years ago

It's not based on the Transit. One of the submitted designs was, but it didn't win the contract bid.

Edit: looks like it was an early prototype from Oshkosh with very little in common with the final product:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a19445176/this-ford-transi...

and

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2021/02/23/oshko... mentions not using the Transit design.

logifail2• 2 years ago

My maths may be way off, but isn't this around 80% heavier than the Deutsche Post DHL Group StreetScooter Work delivery vehicle from 2017... ? ( https://www.ft.com/content/c6913394-1ea6-11e7-a454-ab0442897... / https://archive.is/AlyRj )

Is the NGDV heavier because it's "better" (=more capable) or is its size and weight really to do with avoiding the EPA threshold - or even that it's derived from a full-size US truck?

_heimdall5• 2 years ago

710kg for the Deutsche vehicle is only for the payload, that doesn't include the weight of the vehicle.

I found a PDF fact sheet for the vehicle [1], it looks like the gross vehicle weight rating (vehicle + payload) is 2,800kg. That is still 1,000kg less than the USPS vehicle, but I wouldn't be suprised if that comes down to a combination of capacity, safety requirements, and maybe top speed needs in the US compared to the average European city.

[1] https://group.dhl.com/content/dam/deutschepostdhl/en/media-c...

Loic• 2 years ago

The problem, Dejoy said, wasn’t that he didn’t want electric vehicles. Rather, the expense of the vehicles, compounded by the costs of installing thousands of charging stations and upgrading electrical service, made them unaffordable at a time when the agency was reporting big operating deficits every quarter.

It is worth reading the full article, it covers the environmental aspects and tradeoffs very well.

blagie4• 2 years ago

The emissions standards make zero sense here. USPS trucks don't spend hardly any time on normal driving. They move 10 feet, stop, move 10 feet, stop, etc. Emissions standards aren't set up around that, and I would not expect them to pass.

There are red flags, though. From another article:

While the specific numbers vary based on a vehicle’s exact dimensions—information the USPS considers trade secrets—Sperling estimates a light duty truck approximately the size of a USPS delivery truck would need to achieve something in the neighborhood of 30 mpg to pass federal regulations

Seems like someone forgot or gamed FOIA.

russfink• 2 years ago

DeJoy was a Trump appointee. As witnessed by other such appointees (education, EPA), I was concerned DeJoy would gut the postal service. Sounds like that isn’t the case.

rconti• 2 years ago

There was a TON of controversy early on. There were _significant_ cuts, and, IIRC, very poor performance during the first Christmas season. I remember a large amount of negativity about both his proposed changes and the actual changes he implemented. Of course, the extent to which you think it's trying to kill the USPS vs simply make it more efficient to save it will depend a lot on your politics.

fullstop• 2 years ago

We received Christmas cards mid-January which were sent well before Christmas.

coin2• 2 years ago

He tried gas powered, then due to backlash got the government to give $3B for electric.

“Environmentalists were outraged when DeJoy announced that 90% of the next-gen vehicles in the first order would be gas-powered. Lawsuits were filed demanding that the Postal Service further electrify its fleet of more than 200,000 vehicles to reduce tailpipe emissions.”

“He found a way to further boost the number of electric vehicles when he met with President Joe Biden’s top environmental adviser, John Podesta. That led to a deal in which the government provided $3 billion to the Postal Service, with part of it earmarked for electric charging stations.”

bpodgursky• 2 years ago

My understanding is that the bought a majority-gas fleet with the budget he had, and as congress have him additional money for EV purchases, he adjusted increasingly towards EVs.

Also, 2021 was a long time ago. It was easy in 2021 to say "We're transitioning to EVs by 2030!" but it was not easy to actually buy $6B in working EV vans... they were all hypothetical. That changed, and so the USPS purchases did accordingly.

MetaWhirledPeas8• 2 years ago

Environmentalists were outraged

Remember, us normal folks were not enraged, it was the environmentalists. (sarcasm)

Tobu• 2 years ago

There was indeed sabotage, in the form of dismantling and not replacing hundreds of working mail sorting machines in an election year: https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2020/08/19/repor... https://truthout.org/articles/usps-sorting-machines-are-stil... https://www.ajc.com/news/postal-service-tells-judge-mail-sor... https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/09/politics/usps-removed-711...

I don't know how he hasn't been removed after this.

UniverseHacker2• 2 years ago

Rick Perry was also appointed to run the Department of Energy presumably because he was famous for previously saying it should be abolished... yet by all accounts seems to have taken the job seriously and did it well.

rglover• 2 years ago

It looks like a Pixar character that's about to teach me a valuable lesson.

darth_avocado2• 2 years ago

Strange that Amazon can make Rivian trucks work but not USPS.

shepherdjerred3• 2 years ago

Why is it strange? Isn't it common and expected for the government to lag behind the private sector?

Axsuul2• 2 years ago

There's different requirements and use cases.

mburns3• 2 years ago

Rivians cost ~45% more per-unit than the postal vehicle (86k vs $59k), and doesn’t come in an ice variant, which the Post Office requires.

darth_avocado2• 2 years ago

Seems like ice requirements don’t apply to every state

MetaWhirledPeas8• 2 years ago

Why does it require a variant? Why can't the necessary ICE vehicles be one of the countless existing options?

adgjlsfhk15• 2 years ago

Amazon only delivers to the easy areas and uses USPS to deliver to all the places where they can't deliver economically

andrewflnr2• 2 years ago

False. I happen to know that Amazon delivers in hilariously bad terrain. But yeah, they probably only use Rivians in easy areas. I've never seen one.

MetaWhirledPeas8• 2 years ago

The old USPS trucks have a 150 mile range. That is not a difficult range for electric.

notatoad3• 2 years ago

amazon has a variety of vehicles that they use, and the rivians are one of many options.

the USPS was trying to find one vehicle that could serve all their routes.

cowsandmilk2• 2 years ago

?? Amazon custom designed their vehicle. USPS custom designed their vehicle. What’s the difference here?

shepherdjerred3• 2 years ago

I love it when my tax dollars are used for something like this. A worthwhile project that seems to have been well executed.

nicholastsmith• 2 years ago

Depending if that was sarcasm or not, I may have some bad/good news for you:

https://facts.usps.com/0-tax-dallars/

Axsuul2• 2 years ago

"He found a way to further boost the number of electric vehicles when he met with President Joe Biden’s top environmental adviser, John Podesta. That led to a deal in which the government provided $3 billion to the Postal Service, with part of it earmarked for electric charging stations."

shepherdjerred3• 2 years ago

That wasn't sarcastic hah. I just assumed it was taxpayer funded!

BoringTimesGang• 2 years ago

Is the misspelling (dallars) a reference I've missed?

hyperific• 2 years ago

They look like something from Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs

404mm• 2 years ago

I am surprised by the long hood/nose and then thick bumpers.

By law, there’s usually 6-10’ space requirement for parking near a mailbox on a street. And cars rarely follow those rules, parking pretty close to mailboxes.

So I’d expect the front end to be as short as possible so driver can more easily maneuver to reach mail boxes.

tbihl3• 2 years ago

Presumably the mailmen can just take a lesson from Amazon, UPS et al and leave the vehicle idling in the travel lane when that happens.

aidenn02• 2 years ago

By law, there’s usually 6-10’ space requirement for parking near a mailbox on a street. And cars rarely follow those rules, parking pretty close to mailboxes.

Usually? I've lived in 3 states and none of them had this requirement. The closest is California which merely requires that a parked car not "obstruct the normal movement" of a mail carrier.

luxuryballs• 2 years ago

They’re going to be replacing a lot of windshields…

ooterness• 2 years ago

Easier to replace windshields than run-over kids. Good visibility is more important.

sschueller2• 2 years ago

If visibility was important then why put such a large snout?

boomboomsubban5• 2 years ago

Why does the article only mention the mpg the older cars get? A significant number of the new ones use gas, do they perform better? I somewhat suspect not given their size.

phonon2• 2 years ago

The internal combustion engine (ICE) variant has an estimated fuel efficiency of 14.7 mpg‑US (16.0 L/100 km), decreasing to 8.6 mpg‑US (27 L/100 km) when the air conditioning is on. For comparison, the earlier LLV (built 1987–94) and FFV (2000–01) have an average observed fuel consumption of 8.2 and 6.9 mpg‑US (29 and 34 L/100 km), respectively.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV

grecy3• 2 years ago

Wow, that is a massive hit to fuel consumption from the A/C. What gives?

aneutron• 2 years ago

As a european, I am baffled by those numbers ! A 2.0L consuming 27L/100 is MASSIVE.

I have a 2 ton car with a 1.5L turbocharged engine, and even with air conditioning and city driving it NEVER jumps over 7L/100.

I always find the gas mileages of american cars just mind boggling compared to those sold in Europe

maxglute• 2 years ago

Form follows function but also goofy Pentagon Wars tier design.

CalRobert2• 2 years ago

I appreciate that even a young child could stand in front of the grill and be visible. Well done.

analog312• 2 years ago

I was going to comment that these trucks could be much less dangerous in collisions with pedestrians and cyclists, without sacrificing utility. It could encourage better design standards for things like pickup trucks, SUVs, and minivans.

tbihl3• 2 years ago

pickup trucks, SUVs, and minivans.

Are minivans really comparable to SUVs and pickup trucks in this problem? They never give off the "angry wall of death" vibe to me, like the other two...

l1tany11• 2 years ago

Pickup truck front end design has nothing to do with this. It’s entirely based on Tonka Truck design principles I.e. bigger and boxier and higher is more tough! Tough = good! It’s the same reason glove sizing at Home Depot starts at XL and goes up from there.

In reality pickup trucks are kind of a joke. For instance the 2023 Toyota Tacoma, often cited as being “good” cause it’s smaller, has worse gas mileage than an f-150 and has a max payload of 900lbs. You know what else has a max payload of 900lbs? A sedan.

Ford actually got rid of the heavy duty package from the f-150 (which increased the max payload to around 3,000lbs from about 1500) because they said people weren’t buying it…

You can’t fill the bed of an F-150 with sand, with plywood, with cement bags, with lots of building materials. You can easily overload it.

loxodrome• 2 years ago

How is it the new model looks even more outdated than the old one?

bgnn2• 2 years ago

these sonehow look like.. US.

23B12• 2 years ago

An abomination clearly designed by committee.

fluorinerocket• 2 years ago

Maybe we could cut down on carbon emissions by drastically cutting down on junk mail sent

giarc2• 2 years ago

It's honestly not the junk mail, its all the crap from Amazon/Temu/Aliexpress etc etc.

standardUser3• 2 years ago

If I order something from Amazon, I use it. If I get junk mail I throw it directly in the trash. They are not the same.

jbm• 2 years ago

I literally have never seen spare parts for any electronics in a Canadian store.

Aliexpress has rescued more than a handful of my devices from the dumpster. Far more helpful than the junk mail garbage that Canada Post helpfully dumps into my home (I'm in one of the few areas where they still deliver to the house, a complete joke of a system compared to USPS)

standardUser3• 2 years ago

In almost every instance, I love when function is prioritized over form. This seems like a landmark implementation of that philosophy. Brava!

USPS' long-awaited new mail truck makes its debut to rave reviews from carriers

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