Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local account in Windows 11

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/06/microsoft-removes-documentation-for-switching-to-a-local-account-in-windows-11/

by redbell • 2 years ago

633 371 2 years ago

varispeed• 2 years ago

Bait and switch.

It's a shame that toothless regulators can't do anything about it. Microsoft should received such a large fine, they should end up on the brink of bankruptcy.

DaiPlusPlus• 2 years ago

It's a shame that toothless regulators can't do anything about it

There's no law or regulation that requires computer makers to always allow operation and set-up while offline.

...I think having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach, but a reasonable alternative would be to require Microsoft to sell Windows LTSC to anyone who asks for it, not just Software Assurance and MSDN Subscribers.

mihaic2• 2 years ago

I think having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach

Why? Do you think it would lead to a better or worse world?

graemep• 2 years ago

No specific law, but competition laws are quite generic in their requirements so it is possible that they do need to allow users that much control over their machines.

outofpaper• 2 years ago

having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach

HOW? Until now we haven't needed a law because OS developers haven't been this brazen. In any case there are likely actually a few laws that can be used to litigate the you shouldn't need to be online to install and setup a computer. I'll bet that if they don't fix it themselves a class action will be incoming n citing privacy or child safety or maybe some other laws.

gostsamo• 2 years ago

You can have a regulation requiring that devices are not dependent on internet services and that people can manage them themselves. This is consumer protection 101 where people are protected from predatory business practices.

lozenge• 2 years ago

The number of auto opt in updates clearly violates privacy law. The ease of accidentally agreeing and the inability to view contracts before purchase violates consumer law.

pndy• 2 years ago

I think having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach

Honestly, no - it wouldn't be considering that for many decades we could use Windows without being connected to Microsoft cloud services.

At the moment MS is "only" enforcing an online account during OOBE.* The next step will be an unavoidable Windows-as-as-service product with "subscribe to remove ads and unlock xyz feature" - that's the goal they're heading for years.

They could do as simple as having two versions of OS: Windows Free with ads, telemetry, mandatory online account and a paid Windows Pro with all these limitations gone, with an offline account and more control for the end-user. And that's what the regulators, govt's agencies should really make happen. Sadly they prefer working over content scanning and damaging encryption, violating our privacy while pleasing entertainment industry with wild goose-chasing pirates.

[*] - last time I check in W10, singing out right after OOBE and reverting to a local account still puts residual traces all around the profile to the point that you never are truly signed out.

cladopa• 2 years ago

As someone who has used Windows only minimally in the last 20 years (mainly for CAD and 3D) I do not understand why people need Governments to "protect" them against abuse while they continue using the abusing system.

In the past it took a lot of work to use alternatives. Today it is so easy.

jojobas2• 2 years ago

Because we hired the government to do it.

In a large domain of things windows is still a monopoly.

InDubioProRubio• 2 years ago

Because the government is the people. Its a democracy.

zelphirkalt• 2 years ago

Easy, as long as you are not forced to use this spyware on the job. Or some specific proprietary file format or specific things that alternative tools do not yet have.

Easy, as long as you are a technical user, who is willing to invest time in learning alternative tools and also willing to sometimes sacrifice some time to get appropriate results using alternative software than the mainstream Windows tools.

A lot is possible using other OS and alternative tooling, but it takes commitment and possibly time to learn. Many people are not willing to relearn tools of their professions or even for their hobbies. It really takes an open minded and willing person to listen to their engineering friend and give other tools chances and time and potentially even make a jump to a command line mindset.

Most people, compared to software developers and engineers, are almost computer illiterates. They are happy, when the thing turns on and looks as it always looks and they see some familiar icon for a web browser. Probably never before has the need for educating people about computers and what they can do with them been so huge. The resulting incentives from not educating people about such have terrible results for our whole industry/profession.

somenameforme• 2 years ago

I, and most on this site, are like in the top 0.001% of people technically. And I would not immediately know how to install Linux. I'd assume it'd involve researching an appropriate distro, download an image of said distro, find some software to 'burn' that image onto a USB, and then get into the bios, boot from the USB and everything else from there should be relatively smooth sailing, but to call this "so easy" for the other 99.999% of people is ridiculous. Even more so when Microsoft has been pushing hard for boot locking hardware stuff which I have no idea the implications of, besides I expect it will coincidentally make moving away from Windows even more tedious.

Back in the day when we still had a government that enforced anti-compete laws against mega corporations, Microsoft was found guilty, and nearly broken up, over simply including Internet Explorer by default. If we still had any government willing to crack down on anti-competitive behavior, I think the entire tech world would be in a far better place. The EU is ostensibly trying, but I suspect even that will largely just come down to companies accepting moderate sized fines every once in a while as business expense in the EU.

xlii• 2 years ago

Geez, the more I read about it the more I think about migrating my gaming machine to something like Pop_OS. I heard people are having great experience, and Steam through Steam Deck has considerably improved gaming on Linux experience.

I think I get it - there are plenty of people using Windows as their primary OS and they want bells and whistles while not caring about telemetry. But just.. let people disable things.

IMO fact, that Microsoft is pushing spyware on their users and make it harder and harder to disable it is much more important topic than EU focusing on Apple (which is monopoly inside their ecosystem, but not a provider of "default" software used in offices etc.)

themoonisachees• 2 years ago

I've done that. I kept a windows install on the side for the few games that don't have a permissive enough anticheat, but I basically never use it anymore since The Finals has allowed Proton. It's going great.

dudul• 2 years ago

Same. I have a dedicated gaming machine with windows 10 where I do nothing except games.

Still trying to delay the upgrade to 11 as long as I can though.

masklinn3• 2 years ago

Yeah I’m looking at building a new machine because mine is getting very long in the tooth (although I don’t play very demanding games anyway), I’ve been waffling about using linux and proton for it even though my gaming PC has been windows since forever, I think at this point it’s petty much a done deal.

Zhyl3• 2 years ago

You can also dual boot and/or swap out hard drives. It took me a goodly while to get immersed and comfortable with Linux, so I'd definitely plan a discovery and/or transition phase before hard switching over.

totallywrong3• 2 years ago

There is GPU passthrough these days, where you can have a Windows VM with dedicated graphics and native performance running under Linux. No dual boot required. It does take a bit of work to get it right but I consider my current setup near perfect.

treprinum2• 2 years ago

Everybody cries about Microsoft but Android's level of spying is unmatched and MS is just catching up. Yet for some reason Google is a darling of folks here. Just try to turn off WiFi on your Android phone and see how much longer your battery lasts... All of that power goes to spying on you.

beeboobaa34• 2 years ago

Got any actual proof? About stuff that can't just be toggled off that is

DaSHacka2• 2 years ago

Turning off the WiFi doesn't do anything, Android phones stockpile location-based telemetry while in airplane mode and upload it once you reconnect to the internet[1].

I can't speak for everyone here, but not all of us use stock ROMs and Google Play Services. I personally use GrapheneOS, which let's you significantly neuter Google's spyware capabilities.

[1] https://digitalcontentnext.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DC...

politelemon4• 2 years ago

Yet for some reason Google is a darling of folks here

We must be browsing different HNs!

rcfox• 2 years ago

Just try to turn off WiFi on your Android phone and see how much longer your battery lasts... All of that power goes to spying on you.

Having WiFi turned on will drain your battery faster by virtue of connecting to WiFi. Even worse, if it's on but not connected, it will periodically look for networks to connect to. The same is true for cellular service.

solardev2• 2 years ago

I don't care about the spying stuff, but Windows is just so god damned ANNOYING all the time. It always wants me to drop everything and update Windows right then and there or get the latest 0.0.1 version of Office when I'm trying to make a presentation, or sync all my Google Docs to Onedrive, or make me see a dozen ads just to open the start menu, or have three different control panels and two registry strings and four group policies for the same one setting.

It's just an incredibly user hostile operating system that only a broken bureaucracy like Microsoft's feudal dynasties can build.

In contrast, I love Android, even more than any desktop Linux, macos, ios, etc. It just works and the notifications are super customizable and Pixel blocks 90% of my spam and texts and the adblock is system wide (via VPN) and it auto updates overnight and just never gets in my way. For every Windows annoyance I've had, there are entire months or years where Android just keeps on working, even across new phones and new major versions.

Google may be the spiest of them all, but at least they can deliver a great user experience and operating system. It's not perfect (I still miss my old style notification shade system controls), but it's a lot less noisy than Windows. A good operating system should stay out of the way, not make itself the center of attention at every possible opportunity.

bee_rider6• 2 years ago

I see a lot of negative comments about Google here. They are just more competent than MS.

Google is also an ad company, the bar for their behavior is lower. MS used to be an OS company. Many of the users here remember the time when there was a supplier/customer relationship with MS.

It is probably hard to imagine if you are, like, under 25, but MS actually used to be this kind of interesting company that enabled people doing new, fun things on their computers. Of course they are just another garbage factory now, but it’s hard to update your priors sometimes.

I_am_tiberius• 2 years ago

Also, Pop OS (and linux in general) will soon get a new desktop environment called Cosmic. Clearly, it will take one or two years to get it to a level where it's stable, but it's fantastic. It's the first desktop environment that combines the best of KDE, Gnome and i3.

tmtvl• 2 years ago

I just hope they thoroughly test Cosmic with Orca, people usually don't think about accessibility (a11y) until they need it and that's a shame.

rak• 2 years ago

It is getting to the point where I am really considering giving up games that require anti-cheats that only support windows.

They were already getting to be too much but this is getting crazy.

hypeatei2• 2 years ago

Yep, I think I'm okay with not being able to play some games and I'll probably just keep a dedicated machine if I really feel the need to play those games.

hypeatei2• 2 years ago

I'm going to build an all AMD system, install Linux Mint, then slowly migrate everything over and completely switch. It was bad enough when they started the spyware / bloatware train with Windows 8 / 10 but this is the final nail in the coffin.

qskousen• 2 years ago

I have been running an AMD system on Linux Mint for several years, and it has been fantastic. The only things that don't work in general are games with invasive anti cheat.

darkteflon10• 2 years ago

I made the switch. It’s fantastic. Pop with the pre-packaged Nvidia drivers.

Other than Warzone and Tarkov (for which I keep a separate drive with Win10), the only things I haven’t quite managed to get sorted yet are (i) a convenient system-wide replacement for the frame limiter in RTSS, and (ii) relatedly, proper frame-pacing when streaming using Sunshine.

Also, Steam seems to have a weird and widespread bug where if you use Big Screen, exit to the desktop mode, then launch BS again, you get like 5fps in the BS front-end itself (after launching a game, it’s fine). The workaround is to just kill the client when you exit Big Screen (usually when your gaming is done anyway).

Really happy I made the switch and fully expect those niggles to get sorted (or my aptitude to improve) in due course. Windows has been shit for a while but recently it’s really crossed over into unbelievably shit.

juandemarco4• 2 years ago

MangoHUD should solve your frame limiting needs, and you can even set multiple limits and switch between them!

KronisLV2• 2 years ago

a convenient system-wide replacement for the frame limiter in RTSS

My budget gaming PC is still on Windows and RTSS is a lifesaver: I couldn't stream or record some games with my Intel Arc A580 otherwise, since titles that use DX11 or older rendering technologies typically have worse performance than the more recent ones, ergo I have to stream/record at 30 and cap the framerate anywhere between 30-60 depending on the title, otherwise things get unstable.

Of course, it's not ideal, but is at least workable. A bit odd that the card struggles with games like Ghost Recon Wildlands (DX11, 2017), but not Ghost Recon Breakpoint (Vulkan, 2019) or ones that use DX12 etc. Either that, or when there's a title that's badly coded and doesn't lock framerate properly to the screen refresh rate.

Aside from that, around 90% of the 500ish Steam games I have would actually run on Linux (various indie titles, mostly), at least according to ProtonDB: https://www.protondb.com which is pretty nice to see, except for the fact that last I checked something like GOG doesn't run on Linux natively, though thankfully something like Lutris exists.

Macha3• 2 years ago

Similarly, my Windows 10 install on my primary PC is basically a Destiny 2 launcher at this point

kyriakos3• 2 years ago

I recently bought a Lenovo Legion with RTX4070 I still haven't managed to get Nvidia it working under Linux (the moment I open a browser or anything that uses the GPU extensively things go bad)

Disclaimer I am not very familiar with Linux for Desktop - but to me this is an indication that we are not yet in the "just works" state for desktop linux.

w8vY7ER• 2 years ago

sounds awesome, honestly. maybe consider retiring “niggle” from the lexicon

jppittma• 2 years ago

I have a gaming PC running arch, and the experience has improved immensely since I last tried it 4 years ago. Legitimately incredible what valve has done for the platform, and my suspicion is that AI/ML investment will continue to have secondary effects that make gaming on Linux even better.

Mesopropithecus• 2 years ago

Do it. I recently built a beefy machine, the first time in years that I have something I can play on, it's Linux only and it's great. Deepening on the games you play, check protondb first.

politelemon4• 2 years ago

much more important topic than EU focusing on Apple

The EU is not a single threaded application. They can, and should, be focusing on multiple areas where there is wrongdoing. Both are being egregious and abusive, and need attention. And the EU has shown that it can!

(which is monopoly inside their ecosystem, but not a provider of "default" software used in offices etc.)

A good phrase to use here would be 'platform abuse'. Focusing on the 'default' is an attempt to justify what they are doing, and I notice it gets used to defend Apple rather than call them out. In the sense that "Oh well, it's their platform, they can do what they want"

robertlagrant• 2 years ago

If the EU started using and funding LibreOffice that would be great.

layoric• 2 years ago

+1 to recently making the switch and to PopOS. There are still small experience pains coming from 2 decades of almost exclusively using Windows, but gaming has been pretty smooth, especially for recent titles. Valve has done an exceptional job with the SteamDeck. I hate monopoly like companies as much as the next person, but honestly it is hard to fault their platform. I still get games on GoG and Itch.io occasionally, but man is Steam miles ahead of the rest of the options, especially for Linux gaming.

DelightOne• 2 years ago

No wonder Sony goes after Windows people. Half of them soon need a new device.

k4j8• 2 years ago

Before switching to Linux for gaming, I recommend checking compatibility of your favorite games using https://www.protondb.com/, an unofficial site for Proton compatibility.

CuriouslyC3• 2 years ago

The main issue with Linux as a desktop OS is hardware support (still, sadly). If you get a gaming rig with newer equipment stuff is likely not to work, or require a LOT of hacking to make functional, to the point that it's easier just to install windows and use WSL for everything. I say this as someone who got his start with Linux using Slackware 96.

mattboardman• 2 years ago

I just built a rig with new, top of the line, hardware and installed fedora on it without an issue. What components are you talking about specifically?

totallywrong3• 2 years ago

This is outdated, with the exception of perhaps webcams I've had hardly any issues with hardware on Linux in years, and that includes a couple of Intel MBPs. Just got a latest model laptop with a RTX 4080 and everything worked out of the box. I had to install Windows recently for someone and I had way more issues there.

indymike• 2 years ago

Linux as a desktop OS is hardware support

Things have changed a lot here. I now regularly buy windows laptops, toss windows and they just work. When there is a hardware problem, it usually takes a few minutes to resolve.

The hard part is realizing that you have to do the EFEI setup and not just try to boot in insecure mode.

itsoktocry• 2 years ago

Can you use Steam or play your Steam Deck without logging in?

delduca• 2 years ago

I have been gaming in Pop_OS, the only issue I had was in RDR2, then, when I switched to Proton Experimental it solved.

I am right now using the Xbox Wireless Dongle with a custom driver (xone), that driver says that it supports audio through audio jack. No audio though. Probally because I am not very experienced in Linux on Desktop.

giancarlostoro4• 2 years ago

This is what I did. No regrets, the only one is my usual one for Linux. I want a "nearly bleeding edge" distro. AppImages and Flatpacks are nearly what I want, and do use them, but for development I want to be able to install development tier packages with the confidence that it wont break. I guess I want Debian, bleeding edge but assurances on how reasonably stable it should be. VanillaOS 2 looks promising to me.

I am NEVER going back to Windows unless I get a modern version:

* Targeted for professionals / gamers (why call it pro if its just Home without dumb restrictions?) * Offline-first accounts only * Zero ads for Microsoft products (I'll literally pay $50 a year to stop them, and stop the update nagware). * Stop pestering me to update * And this is more important, decouple your OS so you can update while I use it, requiring a restart only under kernel tier changes.

woodrowbarlow2• 2 years ago

endeavour OS is a rolling-release Arch-based distro with a convenient installer and full desktop. i installed endeavour when my AMD GPU was still brand-new because i needed to be at the bleeding edge for driver support. i figured i'd switch to a more stable distro eventually but i never made the switch because i'm pretty happy with endeavour.

pmlnr2• 2 years ago

Manjaro is nice for nearly bleeding edge, imo.

Aerbil3133• 2 years ago

I recommend NixOS, if you want both a bleeding edge and stable (as in, your system doesn't break) distribution. These two are the reasons this guy chose NixOS[1]:

Why does NixOS work for me?

I got attracted to Nix because of the possibility of being on the bleeding edge. According to repology Nix related package repositories are far up and to the right, their own cluster. In fact, only Arch is getting close by, but not being as good in terms of freshness, as can be seen from the position of AUR below [2].

1: https://mihai.page/nixos-and-me/

2: https://repology.org/graph/map_repo_size_fresh.svg - even nixpkgs 24.05 stable is so far ahead of every other repo it's not funny.

seized• 2 years ago

Fedora is what you want in my experience. The atomic versions like Kinoite may be a change in that you install via Flatpak or Toolbox/Distrobox, but once you try those it's a really neat change. And Fedora Workstation is still there as the normal install.

logicprog6• 2 years ago

If you want a combination of a base operating system that is rock solid stable and reliable, and a development environment that is bleeding edge, I really highly recommend checking out Fedora Atomic combined with Distrobox[2]. I think it's honestly basically the ideal setup:

1. with Fedora Atomic you get an operating system with the reliability and resistance to entropy and ability to power wash of Chrome OS, but also the ability to be changed via building your own custom image (its easy, check out BlueBuild) or with easily reversable overlays, plus an update cadence that offers an excellent middle ground between rolling release and point release — you get all non major version updates to your image's software basically immediately, but major versions wait for every 6 months so they can be integration tested and stuff.

2. And then with Distrobox you get the ability to trivially create a containerized environment with your Linux distribution of choice inside (can be different from the host), that nevertheless integrates almost seamlessly with the host (including having access to all of your hardware devices and your home directory and being able to trivially export applications, as well as easily open a shell inside the container with a simple terminal command), so you can have your cake and eat it too: a fully bleeding edge rolling release distro like Fedora Rawhide or Arch Linux inside your distro box to get the most up to date developer tools, but a more stable system as your host. And if something goes wrong in the container you can easily just blow it away and regenerate it since Distrobox has a declarative container spec (distrobox assemble). For GUI management of Distroboxes check out Pytaxis and BoxBuddy-rs.

There are some things you should know if you go this route though that will save you a lot of pain and frustration:

1. Fedora Atomic is really barebones by default, and since layering is kind of painful it can be really annoying to do the system administration necessary to get it set up; especially if you have an Nvidia card and you have to do all the typical annoying shit you have to do on Linux to set that up. So instead of using vanilla Fedora Atomic, I highly recommend checking out Universal Blue[0], which offers pre-built Fedora Atomic images with all of that annoying setup and system administration done for you already. Their headline images (Bazzite and Bluefin) are really opinionated, but don't worry about that, their base images[1] are perfectly usable too! That's what I use :)

2. Layering packages via rpm-ostree should not be used for just random system utilities or applications. That's not how it is intended to be used, and that way lies only pain. The whole point is that the applications you use as a user, including terminal ones, should be separate from the core system, and not dependent on it, so they can be updated separately and not break each other. Layers, since they are updated by the system package manager, must be versioned in lockstep with the rest of the system, and the system image will fail to build if it can't update the layers you have, so really only use it for things you consider part of your essential OS. People who forget this tend to come away really hating Atomic distros. For your development environment or any build environments you need, create distroboxes and install applications inside them; for GUI applications, just use Flatpak, or install the application inside a distrobox and use distrobox-export to integrate the app into the host. If distrobox feels too heavyweight, or you just want various sundry utilities installed on your host system, then I recommend using something like Homebrew or Nix or Guix or Pkgsrc, that is, any package manager that installs things to your home directory in a way that is cleanly separated from your host system and independently updated. Universal Blue images come with a script to get Homebrew all set up for you. Wouldn't have been my first choice, but its very convenient.

For more on the benefits of this, see this pastebin article I made: https://rentry.co/mm2qcwzh

If you're wondering what the advantage of this is over Nix, the most important to advantages for me are that:

1. Nix's directory structure is basically completely unreadable and unusable for human beings in a way that is far worse than the default posix directory structure

2. Nix requires absolutely every program and package that runs on it to be custom patched to deal with its alternate directory structure, and while sure yes it's package repository is gigantic so a lot of that work is done for you, it can still cause weird problems and make things much more unreliable and good luck if there's a package that isn't there or hasn't been updated for a while. I'm on an emacs Discord and apparently installing it on Nix is very difficult. It's just another layer of possible incompatibility and failure and annoyance on top of the stack of those layers that compose linux.

Meanwhile, you got most of the same benefits on an atomic distro, except:

1. it's all completely human readable

2. uses standardized technology so it's already compatible with everything without having to do any work

3. you can get fully different distros inside distro boxes, unlike with and Nix's equivalent.

The other thing is that with nix, you configure your entire system at a layer of abstraction above what's actually happening on the system — it's not like that declarative config is actually directly deciding how the system operates, no, it's just layered on top of all of the existing crap Linux has going on, and you're just hoping that it can automatically, imperatively perform the actions necessary to keep your system in line with the config.

That, and to get the same level of resistance to entropy and reversibility and ability to power wash and rebase and cherry-pick changes and stuff that you get with an atomic distro on nix, you would have to Version Control your Nix config and then also be very very careful with manually committing with informative commit names at regular intervals every time you make a change and stuff, instead of it being handled automatically for you and not requiring an extra version control tool slapped on top.

Plus, Nix doesn't benefit from the minor, but still meaningful in my opinion, security benefits of an immutable image-based distro.

[0] https://universal-blue.org/ [1]: https://github.com/orgs/ublue-os/packages [2]: https://distrobox.it/

Lockranor• 2 years ago

I went with Pop Os, had a little stability and audio issues, and went with Arch. Everything works really well now. YMMV. I took the opposite extreme; the only things running are the things that I enabled. It took a little more work, and it was worth the afternoon it took.

ryanjshaw2• 2 years ago

I've been a Windows user since 3.1. I'm a professional Microsoft stack developer (.NET, SQL Server, Power Platform, M365). I first tried Linux in the late 90s, never stuck with me.

But 2 weeks ago I installed Linux on my home setup to run 24/7.

There's some seriously dumb issues with it: Ubuntu snaps are terrible with no local fonts in FF and other snap-based software has surprising bugs and crashes you don't realise are the fault of snaps until you waste hours researching it, everybody pushes AppImages but you can't get launcher shortcuts without doing it all manually in a friggin .desktop file* (you could do this 30 years ago in Win3.1 without having to search around for an icon!!!), you can't consistently pin stuff to a taskbar, etc.

But I think I'll be sticking with it all the same. Microsoft could ban my Microsoft account and then what, I can't use my PC anymore?!

* Yes I know there's some software you can download to do it but seriously it's not been updated for ages and this should be core OS GUI functionality. I switched to Debian and KDE which at least has more flexibility.

pmlnr2• 2 years ago

Ubuntu

There's your problem ;)

Mint has been much more user friendly for a long time. I've been on Manjaro for some time now, and I'm quite happy with it.

ernst_klim• 2 years ago

I can't use my PC anymore

It's not your computer anymore, it's this computer.

xemdetia2• 2 years ago

I recommend Debian + Cinnamon right now over KDE for people who want that Windows + searchable start menu now get out of my way. Right now for me KDE is a bit much.

logicprog6• 2 years ago

It's unfortunate, and I mean this genuinely here, in a sympathetic way, that you felt afoul of the common error that people who checked in with Linux 6 or more years ago make: assuming that Ubuntu is still the best and easiest to use distribution. Unfortunately, it really isn't anymore — the way they are pushing snaps (including forcing you to install snaps instead of regular packages even if you use the regular package manager) is really unfortunate because of how fucked snaps are to use, not to mention the fact that snaps are hardcoded to only be able to install from the proprietary closed source snap repository Canonical runs, and that store is full of crypto scams. Plus, in general, desktop PC Ubuntu has been getting buggier and more unreliable over time as Canonical switches their focus to the server. Honestly, if there was one misconception about Linux that I could erase with a snap of my fingers from all potential users minds, it would be that they should start with Ubuntu.

IMO Debian is a pretty good choice if you have hardware that's about 2 to 4 years old or more and don't really care about getting the latest driver updates or advances in the Linux ecosystem, so you should have a better experience there, but if it starts to frustrate you that it takes years for huge fixes and advancements to make their way to you, I really enjoy Fedora. :-)

Also, you mentioned two of the major alternative application packaging formats, snap and appimage, but have you heard of our Lord and savior Flatpak? :p It has all of the benefits of snaps (namely sandboxing, consistent environments and packaging dependencies along with applications, updates directly from upstream, distribution agnostic packaging, and automatic integration with your desktop environment) but none of the downsides (namely far better desktop environment integration thanks to portals and much much faster startup times and no perf impact during runtime unlike snaps). A lot of people talk down about them but I think that's mostly FUD.

jacobwilliamroy2• 2 years ago

this should be core OS GUI functionality

Be careful. This is how distros start.

jjice2• 2 years ago

There's some seriously dumb issues with it: Ubuntu snaps are terrible...

It's so upsetting that Ubuntu went so hard in on Snaps. I just end up with issues caused by their sandboxing with hardware and config access and you end up having to fight to find a normal .deb install for FF instead of that damn default Snap.

I hope the journey isn't too rough for you though - best of luck!

necrotic_comp• 2 years ago

Agreed with the sibling posts. Ubuntu isn't a great experience - it feels seamless until it breaks, and then it's just a world of pain.

Debian/Mint/etc. are all good distros, but if you're willing to step up the learning curve just a bit, I'd definitely suggest Gentoo. I've been using it as my daily driver for several years now and it's made me feel like I'm actually in control of my machine (compiling all your code with debug flags so you can attach gdb when it's behaving weird so you can write a patch?! And then submit it to get sucked into upstream!? Yes please!). There's definitely a little work up front, but it's without a doubt the best experience I've had with Linux and I'd recommend it if you're up for it.

ragnese4• 2 years ago

Yeah, snaps are really shitty.

And in general, desktop Linux is just as buggy and maybe even more half-baked than it was when I started using it in 2007.

But, I own my machines. I don't need to ask permission from a company to be able to log in to my machine. I can install or uninstall whatever the hell I want.

AiAi• 2 years ago

There is AppImageLauncher [0] that can make it easier to get launcher shortcuts.

[0] https://github.com/TheAssassin/AppImageLauncher

ajyotirmay• 2 years ago

I'm sorry, but today I don't recommend Ubuntu to event people who are very familiar with Linux Distros. I'm personally using Debian Testing on my daily driver, and Debian Stable on my home server.

I started with Linux Mint, then Ubuntu. I don't remember which Ubuntu it was, but it had Gnome 2 and then later had fun with the Unity Desktop versions. When they started being the bully, I started distro hopping and then finally settled with Debian (because of my personal values as well). I can't trust a for-profit company to care about its users. Today I try to use as many FOSS alternatives and projects supported by community.

Ubuntu is no better than Windows 11 at this point. It's just lesser evil of two. Try something else, Pop_OS!, Linux Mint, Manjaro Linux, Fedora, etc. Plenty of good options out there. Debian too, if you don't want a solid stable long term OS.

AlienRobot• 2 years ago

The reason I hate Linux is that every time there is a problem I need to Google third-party tutorials that tell me to run arcane programs I don't understand and just trust random sources of software.

And nowadays that's the same thing you need to do in order to de-bloat Windows.

Don't want to create Microsoft account? Google how to do it, read about pressing a random keyboard shortcut during install, and running a random command in the terminal. This is literally the Linux experience. It's the same thing, now on Windows!

Your tablet doesn't work on Linux? Install OpenTabletDriver from who knows who to fix it! Your Windows doesn't work? Install power tools from who knows who to fix it! Want to bring back the old context menu? Install this. Want to bring back "my" computer? Install that. Want to get rid of OneDrive? Run this .bat file!

If things continue like this one day Microsoft will get rid of backwards compatibility altogether and people will migrate to Linux to run old Windows programs in WINE.

sergeykish2• 2 years ago

Distributions provide trusted open source software. That's opposite from Windows where basic system tools are not included, found in Web as shareware, could contain viruses.

I was uneasy about Ubuntu PPA, that's binaries from unknown source. I prefer AUR, it provides packaging instructions but source trusted by user.

Linux issues possible to investigate, search brings grounded instructions. Windows is closed source, "solutions" is guesswork.

Linux distributions build experiences, maybe there is already group of people like you, issues solved.

solardev2• 2 years ago

Windows had gotten so bad that even as a lifelong PC gamer who grew up on MS DOS and built my own machines for decades, I gave up a couple years ago and switched to Mac.

Now I do my gaming on GeForce Now as much as possible (soooo much nicer than fighting Windows updates, UAC, game bar, drivers, etc. all the time). And Crossover/Whisky sometimes, Parallels almost never. I wish Proton worked on macos :(

Together this means I can only play maybe 50% of the games I used to be able to (specifically anti cheat can be a problem, if the game doesn't support GFN). But otherwise the small performance penalties are totally worth not having to deal with Windows anymore.

chaostheory• 2 years ago

Why would you need to migrate a gaming machine? I would imagine that said gaming machine also relies on cloud gaming services even if the games run local. Just keep it exclusively a gaming machine.

I have separate machines for separate purposes.

ysofunny• 2 years ago

it's better and easier than ever

I do all my gaming using linux. I haven't used Microsoft's shit since windows 7

Aeolun2• 2 years ago

migrating my gaming machine to something like Pop_OS

I’ve done this around 4 year ago and I’ve literally never felt compelled to move back.

glenstein• 2 years ago

and Steam through Steam Deck has considerably improved gaming on Linux experience.

My mind went here too. I know a lot of people questioned the first iteration of "Steam Machine" PCs. Created by independent hardware vendors, with a Steam-flavored Linux distro, a lot of people asked what was the point.

But increasingly, every month that goes by Windows seems to add a new task bar thing you need to disable, something new on the login screen, and now, apparently, changes to something as fundamental as user management. It seems inconceivable that Valve would want to willingly tie their fate to the unpredictable twists and turns that Windows may have in store.

speedylight2• 2 years ago

Switching to a Mac was one of the best decisions I ever made because of crap like this. The only thing that will ever make me use windows again is GTA 6!

portaouflop• 2 years ago

Gaming is horrible on Mac. Also I don’t like how they patronize their users.

I for one run an old win10 just for gaming and some legacy software. Will keep until EOL of win10 and then check alternatives

dewey• 2 years ago

Gaming is horrible on Mac.

Just like an Linux is horrible for doing video editing, not sure that comparison makes sense. Pick the right system for your workload.

DaSHacka2• 2 years ago

I for one run an old win10 just for gaming and some legacy software. Will keep until EOL of win10 and then check alternatives

Same story here, I think the usability of Windows 10 LTSC IoT is pretty much unmatched.

It'll get security updates until 2032, doesn't have preinstalled bloat like crandy crush or the Microsoft store, lets you reschedule updates freely, and has the expanded features of Pro/Enterprise editions (group policies, RDP, Bitlocker, etc)

cjk23• 2 years ago

Gaming is horrible on Mac

In a couple of years I bet that has changed.

nordsieck4• 2 years ago

Gaming is horrible on Mac.

I think it really depends on which games you want to play. I basically only play 2... and they both seem to run quite well.

I realize that that is an atypical experience, though.

k8sToGo2• 2 years ago

Same here. Got a MacBook Pro and downgraded my PC to a gaming appliance

ineedaj0b• 2 years ago

‘gaming appliance’, do you mean a PlayStation or Xbox?

daemin• 2 years ago

Doesn't Apple require you to have an online account to log into a Mac to use it?

trvr• 2 years ago

No, you can set up a Mac with a local account without any weird hacks during setup.

nordsieck4• 2 years ago

Doesn't Apple require you to have an online account to log into a Mac to use it?

There's some iCloud integration, but I don't think your login is an iCloud account, it's just a local account.

tapoxi3• 2 years ago

No. There's a prompt to use iCloud but it's not a requirement. I don't need/want iCloud so I've never logged in on mine.

capital_guy• 2 years ago

speedylight2• 2 years ago

You can use an Apple ID but it’s optional and it’s not tied to the user account unlike windows. A Mac OS user is basically like creating a user account on a Linux machine!

TimeBearingDown2• 2 years ago

Sadly GTA 6 is not coming to PC, unless plans change.

mythz5• 2 years ago

User hostile abuses like this is what has finally pushed me off the Windows spyware/admil after 25+ years of using Windows as my primary Desktop.

There's still some rough edges but overall Fedora 40 is an amazing Desktop OS which was easy to recreate all my dev tools including: .NET 8, VSCode, JB Toolbox/Rider/DataGrip/etc, GH CLI/Desktop, Docker/lazydocker, Ollama, AWS CLI, Discord, Obsidian, with PostgreSQL/MySQL/SQL Server/Redis running in Docker, effortlessly installed node/bun/go/python with mise, even all my major titled Windows games are working under Steam/Proton which was a pleasant surprise.

With Windows 10 nearing EOL I believe Linux Desktop is at the turning point for market share now that Microsoft is turning the crank with Windows 11 and turning it into an ad/spyware marketing channel for their Apps and cloud services.

mrjin8• 2 years ago

Installed Fedora 40 on a new Ryzen 8740u machine, I cannot believe it that everything working by default, video, audio, even sleeping working like a charm.

mythz5• 2 years ago

It flies on my new AMD 7800X3D custom build!

Fedora 40/Wayland worked beautifully out-of-the-box with buttery smooth DE animations which unfortunately started flickering after installing NVidia's proprietary drivers which should be fixed with explicit sync [1] in NVidia's latest 560 drivers which is now available in KDE Plasma 6.1 update, hopefully it'll be available for Gnome in a system update soon - looking forward to running Wayland again.

[1] https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2024/04/05/explicit-sync...

criddell3• 2 years ago

I installed it on my ThinkPad T520 and the Bluetooth is unreliable and restart doesn't work. When I try to restart the laptop it looks like it powers down but then it displays an error message and hangs before it reboots.

Previously the laptop had Windows 10 on it and there were no Bluetooth or reboot issues. Unfortunately, Windows 11 doesn't work on it and 10 is rapidly approaching EoL.

mrjin8• 2 years ago

I remember the CPU model wrong. it's 7840hs actually.

politelemon4• 2 years ago

Isn't Fedora 40 now defaulting to Wayland? Does it work well with Steam/Proton games or do you need to switch to X?

mythz5• 2 years ago

Fedora's Gnome Desktop Environment ran great (e.g. animations were super smooth) in Wayland using Fedora's default drivers, but I installed NVidia drivers because I thought I needed them for games but that caused flickering in Wayland which made it unusable. Apparently this is fixed with Explicit Sync in NVidia's next 560 drivers so I've switched to X in the meantime.

tapoxi3• 2 years ago

No issues on Fedora 40 (Kinoite). Steam will capture a game's output into gamescope by default which is a good citizen on Wayland.

It's actually the Wayland compositor itself on the Steam Deck.

2OEH8eoCRo0• 2 years ago

I had to use x11 until Nvidia beta driver v555 fixed my issues. I installed using:

  dnf upgrade --releasever=41 --refresh xorg-x11-drv-nvidia

ikekkdcjkfke• 2 years ago

Need a discord alternative too

cevn• 2 years ago

I think one was Revolt. Good luck getting ur friends to switch.

DrBazza• 2 years ago

I ditched at Windows 10, and installed Fedora and KDE. Never had a single problem, and that was onto really old hardware, and then onto a brand new AMD mobo. Admittedly, I didn't go the nvidia route for graphics cards.

Booted into Windows once a year, maybe twice. Deleted Windows altogether in January.

Works perfectly for me. Gaming, development especially, and so on.

Interestingly, my company is considering ditching Windows altogether since we're on 10, and know what 11 is like, and going full Linux desktops since that's all we develop on anyway.

amiga-workbench• 2 years ago

I've been running Fedora since v20, its been an excellent and well polished OS for my development work and gaming with it has exceeded expectations.

I only keep a Windows 11 partition around for SteamVR as my Quest 2 headset is a bit awkward to get working well under Linux. This problem will be rectified when Valve release a successor to the Index headset. All of my other games run just fine on Fedora.

Linux on the desktop is a calm and sane respite compared to the ever more shrill and needy interruptions from Windows wanting its ass wiped.

resource_waste3• 2 years ago

Fedora has been incredible. We had been tainted by the Ubuntu/Debian ecosystem for so long.

And yes, it was seeing Microsoft get worse and worse until a lead weight broke too many camels backs.

everybodyknows2• 2 years ago

What are the main advantages relative to Ubuntu? Ditching "snap"? Are you on GNOME?

bachmeier• 2 years ago

User hostile abuses like this is what has finally pushed me off the Windows spyware/admil after 25+ years of using Windows as my primary Desktop.

Security issues with the XP/IE/ActiveX axis of evil made using Windows feel like taking a shot to the groin on a daily basis. Then they brought out Vista. If you survived that, you must have been dedicated.

majoe• 2 years ago

"User hostile abuses like this" made me a full time Linux user, when Windows 10 came out. I doubt, though, that people will migrate in masses to Linux, even though I think the user experience is better. Installing a new OS is still a daunting task for most users.

gadders• 2 years ago

"Dear user,

You have engaged in wrong-think, so we have disabled your windows account and deleted all your docs in the cloud.

Regards,

Microsoft."

jojobas2• 2 years ago

They could bitbleach the local drive too for all you know.

mrjin8• 2 years ago

Doesn't matter any more to me. I'm replacing my Windows installation with Linux, 3 done, 4 to go.

stuaxo• 2 years ago

This is annoying, even though I am mostly a Linux user I still use Windows occasionally.

trollied• 2 years ago

Large thread from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301

delta_p_delta_x• 2 years ago

I wish Microsoft didn't make local account creation so hard. One big reason I want a local account is so that my user profile in `C:\Users` is my full first name with a Capital first character, i.e. `C:\Users\Username`. Signing in with an online account in the out-of-box experience means the user profile is truncated to 5 characters and begins with a lowercase character, i.e. `C:\Users\usern`[1]. This has been the behaviour since Windows 8.

Additionally, Microsoft's decision to plague Windows with advertisements and Copilot was terrible. Windows is otherwise a damn good OS, and I wish the engineers had a say over the marketing and Copilot departments at MS. I also wish the UI/UX department didn't suddenly decide that macOS was a shining bastion of good desktop UX, i.e. favouring icons over text.

I'm going to link another comment of mine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40541721

After setting up I log in to OneDrive and Microsoft anyway; I have an Office 365 subscription (the competition here absolutely sucks) and I'd like my game achievements in XBox Live.

I still use Windows, and I probably will continue to use it despite all this. Unlike the rest of the commenters here, I actually like using and writing for Windows.

Desktop-on-Linux is broken if you have any reasonable multi-monitor HiDPI set-up with an NVIDIA GPU. I personally don't care which company/entity is responsible; as an end-user, it is broken, full stop. I'm also not fond of the OS-as-an-IDE mentality; I like a right proper IDE with a green play button and red circles. I was never comfortable with the command-line, and I remain so, having been entirely raised on Windows. Proton is nice, but what's nicer is never having to bother about compatibility because one is running the platform the game was written on and for.

I faffed around with macOS and I use it at work, but writing programs for Macs is ridiculously painful (and dare I say, expensive) after Apple introduced the requirement to sign + notarise stuff. I'm also not a big fan of the post-OS X Lion workflow when the 'Save As' button was removed.

[1] https://superuser.com/questions/1148991/why-does-windows-10-...

amanzi• 2 years ago

"One big reason I want a local account is so that my user profile..." Yes! This sounds like a minor thing, but this is my number one reason why I always create a local account before adding any cloud features. If I sign in with a Microsoft account during setup my user profile is in "C:\Users\stuar" which drives me nuts.

The easiest way around this whole issue is to just sign in with a Microsoft account during set up, but once logged in, create yourself a local admin account and log in with that, and then delete the first account that was created. I find this easier rather than trying to work around the initial set up process.

davidguetta• 2 years ago

laugh in linux

imchillyb• 2 years ago

Using Microsoft products is like waking up and finding someone’s hand down our pants.

And, instead of speaking to law enforcement we move into the abuser’s bedroom and stop wearing underwear.

Makes perfect sense.

broknbottle• 2 years ago

I’ve got a dedicated windows sffpc for games running Windows 11. IMO, it’s a terrible OS for a dedicated gaming box or htpc. I constantly have to switch from controller to a keyboard and touchpad because of new settings, random pop-up notifications, etc. after updates I’ll find disabled things that were re-enabled or new “features” that require me to disable because everything is auto opt-in… I had auto login enabled for a long time before it randomly stopped working and somehow the host had switched from local to Microsoft account login. Attempts to switch back resulted in a weird semi-broken state. I just left it as Microsoft login and found a way to re-enable auto-login with the Microsoft account.

Windows 10 was pretty easy to convert to a htpc or arcade box. Windows 11 not so much, feels like I’m running a rolling release run by someone who doesn’t care about user experience

politelemon4• 2 years ago

Macs, iPhones, and iPads will all let you complete the setup process without signing in, though you do have to know which buttons to click

IME it's very difficult, and for intents and purposes here from a user perspective, it is the exact same thing. Further we've found it's also impossible to create an account without handing over credit card details. Please call it what it is instead of wringing your hands - dark patterns.

BigJono2• 2 years ago

Thank you, the amount of people that defend this sort of stuff is insane. Quacks like a dark pattern to me.

I just got done setting up my 3rd work Macbook in about 8 years and every single time the credit card thing gets me. Back and forth through the app store setup 4-5 times, about to finally cave and add a personal credit card into a work laptop because I can't figure out how the fuck to install something and my team is waiting for me to get setup, then on the 5th go round I finally figure out that the credit card ribbon has a "none" icon.

They know full fucking well that every single person on the planet reads a ribbon of credit card icons as "visa, mastercard, blah blah blah blah". If that's not intentional I'll eat my fucking desk.

criddell3• 2 years ago

I wonder why they have to do it this way? Why not make having an account so useful that people want it? The fact that so many people go to extraordinary lengths to not have an account indicates a problem with their approach.

yourusername• 2 years ago

If you're not going to buy their cloud services Microsoft doesn't want you as a customer anyway. My 9 year old Windows PC keeps nagging for me to "finish setting up", because there is no way not using onedrive is your actual intention right?

LegitShady3• 2 years ago

So does my iPhone but that's somehow ok?

macNchz• 2 years ago

I don’t see where that comment was giving Apple a pass. They are indeed really egregious in upselling iCloud, in my opinion. The fact they sell devices with undersized, non-user-upgradable base model storage and default to storing lots of stuff in iCloud so it winds up filling up is pretty blatant. I’ve had to help a number of friends and family who kept getting iCloud storage full messages on their iPhones because they didn’t realize that their Desktop folder on their Mac had been slurped up into iCloud by some update, and was full of large files they didn’t care about accessing on their phone.

endisneigh• 2 years ago

Why do people do this? Literally no mention or relevance to apple or iPhone, nor approval of that behavior yet the comparison is made anyway

astura• 2 years ago

PayPal few months ago prompted me to "finish setting up my account."

...For an account has been open for 23 years.

adhvaryu• 2 years ago

Did you assume op uses an iPhone?

resource_waste3• 2 years ago

Apple users are conditioned. Its a personal image they are going for, the experience never mattered.

YPPH• 2 years ago

In the enterprise, I'm convinced the effort to move people away from Active Directory Domain Services to Azure Active Directory is also a backwards step. For an enterprise without extensive working from home, the new model seems to create at least as many problems as it solves.

moqster• 2 years ago

Since rufus wasn't mentioned here: https://rufus.ie/de/

You can create an win 11 iso with some custom settings (e.g. "remove requirement for an online Microsoft account)

edit: ok, its already mentioned in the article, sorry :o

holoduke• 2 years ago

They also have dark mechanisms to restore certain settings. Like default browser and also security settings. I am a person who likes to disable everything. No ms anti virus, no ms security, no uac. Nothing. I want everything to be disabled. Absolutely required when you work on cracks and hacks. Annoying stupid Microsoft keeps enabling their realtime protection crippleware. Despite settings, registry changes. Very annoying.

9999000009992• 2 years ago

The most amazing part of this is Windows doesn't care if it can't detect any network devices.

You're just stuck in a loop. Luckily I was able to bridge my phones internet connection. Then in Windows it was able to start installing device drivers.

api• 2 years ago

Our kids like Minecraft. If it wasn’t for that there would be no Windows in the house.

zimpenfish• 2 years ago

Runs well on a Mac if you use something like PrismLauncher with the various performance mods.

(but you don't really get stuff like shaders)

tapoxi3• 2 years ago

The normal release of Minecraft is Java, so it'll run anywhere.

The C++ rewrite depends on Windows APIs, and it is much less flexible/moddable than the Java version. It does support playing with consoles and mobile, though.

_joel• 2 years ago

Maybe this year will finally be the year of Linux on the desktop... :)

belter• 2 years ago

Yesterday 274 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301

b3ing• 2 years ago

They do these things slowly and hoping no one notices. More and more intrusive, the dimmer the frog of losing your privacy and slowly add ads. It might take 10 years but you better believe AI will train on your data for their benefit and profit

bdnavf• 2 years ago

Apart from obvious privacy and GDPR issues, is this not also an anti-trust issue?

At some point OS vendors were forced to point to alternative browsers. Should the setup not also point to competitors like rsync.net?

replete• 2 years ago

The recovery commandline solution did not work for me. What did work was using no@thanks.com with a random password, which is a locked account, which then allowed me to create a local account.

gardaani• 2 years ago

The Internet Wayback Machine has archived the instructions how to convert a Microsoft account into a local account: https://web.archive.org/web/20240612104753/https:/support.mi...

HumblyTossed2• 2 years ago

That's cool. But it's not enough. Most people don't even know about the wayback machine.

userbinator• 2 years ago

After that massive lawsuit, I think they got a lot more publicity (both good and bad.)

archon810• 2 years ago

But other sites exist where you could look up this information and find a guide.

everybodyknows2• 2 years ago

And how many revs on before they don't work any more?

_benj• 2 years ago

I’ve been leaning towards using windows server for the few use cases that I need windows. The performance of it running on libvirt/qemu is indistinguishable, for me, to baremetal.

License is a bit of a challenge but with the 180 trail days and how little I actually use it I can afford to do a fresh installation every few months and be ok.

It’s kind of sad given than windows itself, at least the core OS used in windows server is rock solid… but when you go to the user offerings of windows 10/11 is such a stark contrast and crappy/unstable experience!

unethical_ban2• 2 years ago

Check out massgrave.dev - helps with licensing. It's hosted on GitHub so it must be fine! :)

polairscience• 2 years ago

A funny thing I always notice about these sorts of discussions, where a lot of folks identify this particular offense as the final line that is harmful... (which for the record I understand).

Everyone in the Linux community has known this would be the outcome since forever. There have been a million small abuses on the road to here. And I get that everyone has their reasons for using Windows and other proprietary software but the strangulation was plain as day. So:

For all the flack that folks here give militant believers such as Stallman et. al., you can thank them and every other FOSS dev for keeping the alternative alive. Imagine a world where there was no alternative. You don't deserve to have your attention hijacked or to be forced into a cloud contract just because you want to use your hardware. Hate to say we told you so but you can come to the fold anyway. Welcome to freedom.

tombert2• 2 years ago

But for all the flack that folks here give militant believes like Stallman

I was as critical as anyone over Stallman until the Snowden leaks happened. It felt clear to me that these tech companies will very happily get rid of our privacy the second it's convenient for them, and while I should have known that before, I guess I brushed that off as paranoid thinking.

I still use a fair amount of proprietary software and web services, such is the way in 2024, but I try and be much more aware of what information I'm sharing and storing. Once my current Macbook dies or once the Linux ports for the T2 Macs is actually usable, I'll move to a proper Linux distro and be rid of most of the Apple ecosystem in my workflow.

resource_waste3• 2 years ago

I tried to make an account for my kid. The Windows never could load the box.

The quality of Windows is poor. Fedora is actually a great OS. Windows is among the Debian/Ubuntu/Mint tiers of OS, kind of crappy but kind of works.

davidgerard• 2 years ago

Even my gamer kid is asking about dual-booting or moving to Linux when Windows 10 goes EOL next year.

(They're quite capable of running a Linux box, it's the games and Office 365 Full Version [which doesn't do well in Wine] when LibreOffice won't quite do the job. They've heard the good news about Proton. But I think it's a sign that Microsoft is repelling the gamer kids too.)

jedrek• 2 years ago

It's interesting to watch the arc of Microsoft being the big baddie, transitioning to being a good dude that the open source community has embraced, back to being horrible.

Except they've gone from being horrible to developers, to being horrible to normal, non-technical users.

bee_rider6• 2 years ago

Old MS was evil but at least they were intimidating and impressive. New MS is pretty pathetic.

simianparrot• 2 years ago

Windows 10 is my final Windows. When it's out of support I'm switching to some Linux distro and not looking back. I've already experimented a lot with Proton on my Steam Deck and it's been great, and there's no other software I need anymore that can't be run on Linux acceptably.

superultra2• 2 years ago

A long long time ago as a poor college student, I signed up to get a “free PC.” You got a shitty packard bell tower for signing away your privacy and allowing a bunch of ads annd telemetry exist in the OS. It really wasn’t that intrusive and eventually the company folded and I got a free (shitty) ad-free pc out of it.

I’m a Mac user now but when I pull up windows 11 on my kid’s or wife’s laptop, it feels like that free-pc dot com again, only it’s in every person’s PC. I’m genuinely shocked at the amount of trash that barrages a common user in windows, and shocked that Microsoft gets away with it.

My 14 year old gets barraged with not just co-pilot but a bunch of news and trash clickbait that is straight inappropriate for kids to see.

I’ve had to remove it all twice but with every significant update, somehow my settings get reversed and we’re back at square one.

I tried even using local accounts but it causes significant issues in the OS.

If you’d told me in 1999 that free-pc.com was the dystopian digital future we’d all be living in, I’d have laughed you out of the room - but that’s exactly what we have. The only difference is that the PC isn’t free. We are.

jb1991• 2 years ago

Not only do I agree with you, I actually think you have sugarcoated it.

cvadict• 2 years ago

Speaking of sugar coatings, have you tried Candy Crush Saga 365 yet? I've already pinned it in your start menu favorites for convenience.

throwup238• 2 years ago

Agreed on the sugarcoating. My mother installed Windows 11 on a lab computer and had to call me for tech support for the first time in 20 years because she couldn't figure out how to do the most basic things. This is a PhD physicist who has been programming Fortran and Python since the 1990s and taught her parents how to use Ubuntu as their daily driver, yet she was completely stumped by Windows 11. It's been a daily struggle for her since.

Sadly all I could say was "yeah, that's why I use Linux"

jacobwilliamroy2• 2 years ago

I just don't have a personal computer. I just use other people's computers. Accept all cookies. Honestly if advertisers can figure out how to track me across multiple browsers on multiple OSes on multiple computers on multiple networks, then that's actually really impressive and I would like to know how they did it.

giantg25• 2 years ago

If you log into any sites, there's a good chance they can link you together.

ragnese4• 2 years ago

That's also something Richard Stallman said he used to do, IIRC. He said that while he didn't browse the web on his own computers, he would sometimes do it on other peoples' computers or public computers.

No point being made. Just an interesting tidbit I remembered.

criley2• 2 years ago

The way we use algorithms to pump offensive fake news content to everyone is shocking. It's no secret that Meta (facebook/instagram) pushes sexual content to minors and I think Meta may be the organization pushing the most sexual content to children in human history. And yet, we just ignore it?

The news sources that get pumped into Windows are similarly as bad. Celebrity sexual content, openly fake political propaganda, scare mongering nonsense, just truly depraved garbage.

I don't understand how these organizations reputations survive this. They're not just polluting our own systems with their depraved content, they're intentionally* targeting children with wildly inappropriate sexual content.

This might seem radical but I think there should be severe criminal penalties for corporate executives who allow this kind of thing to happen. Until billionaires are truly brought to justice for the media hellscape they design to pad their billions, we will be completely at their mercy. I harbor few good feelings towards China and their system but they know how to disappear a billionaire who is "too big to be good" and magically the same services' algorithms don't push sexual content to children there. Tiktok* has a completely different algorithm and pushes completely different content. Maybe they figured it out.

Sharlin2• 2 years ago

I’m not quite sure why there hasn’t been more regulationary or legislative pushback to MS’s antics this time. One would expect the EU at least to not have a very favorable view on this stuff.

superultra2• 2 years ago

I think it's a combination of two things - one is that we are in a monopoly friendly environment gilded age for business that was not there in the 90s, and two is that MS was an easy target in the 90s because they were really the only target. But if you're the US government, if you go after MS you have to go after like 6 other companies for effectively doing the same thing even if it's not OS level. It's just not possible. Digital business has won by deluge.

I mean, throwing co-pilot into everything is literally the 2024 version of inlcuding IE on everything in the 90s and MS does it with impunity because they can.

giantg25• 2 years ago

The clean install seems fine to me, as long as you turn off all the data collection toggles during setup. It seems like the bigger issue are the manufacturers shipping with all sorts of junk on it. It surprises me that Norton and McAfee are still shipping pre-installed.

consf2• 2 years ago

Many intrusive features are enabled by default, and casual users may not be aware of how to disable them, leading to widespread acceptance by default.

tracker17• 2 years ago

You don't have a Candy Crush or Office 365 shortcuts out of the box?

edit: I mean they had to remove Solitaire and Minesweeper to save space...

kmacdough• 2 years ago

Unsurprising. MS has never been innovative. They just bully, buy out and patent troll competition. Every product they buy they immediately trash the freedom and, soon after, the entire experience.

If you have the freedom to use your PC as you please, they can't force their software down your throat. They know that means no one will lock into their software because it sucks.

ycombinator_acc2• 2 years ago

I'll take a few ads over the illogical mess that is MacOS.

To make your settings stick, use group policies instead of Control Panel, Settings and the registry. It's the much more stable and better documented equivalent of MacOS' "defaults."

I tried even using local accounts but it causes significant issues in the OS.

I have never not used a local account, so I'm unsure what you're saying, because it hasn't caused any issues at all, let alone significant ones. Can you provide an example?

slowmovintarget2• 2 years ago

MacOS when seen through the lens of iTerm2 is actually pretty great.

    brew install theThingIActuallyWant

...and you're off. Settings for notifications and obnoxious start-up stuff, all in one place and in your hands, not Microsoft's and in most cases, not even Apple's. It is better than Windows.

Linux, with complete user control, is better. It has rough edges, still, but your computer is your own. MacOS is the better of the two consumer offerings. Windows is now the sleaziest of all, and I'm sad about that.

I've been a gamer and PC enthusiast for more than 40 years. I've used Windows since there was a Windows, and MS-DOS before that. My first "real" computer was an IBM XT clone running MS-DOS 3.3. I went to the store for every upgrade. Microsoft Bob was the first thing I passed on, but I've used all the others. I was beyond excited for Windows 95, I ran NT, and all of it's variants. I loved Windows 2000. ME, 7, 8, 10... I still have licenses. I won't touch 11. I've switched to Linux on my desktop, and won't be going back. I use Macs for work, and for the family PC.

Microsoft Office is still the best office suite out there, but I'll run it on Mac or through Bottles on Linux. I won't let Windows on my hardware anymore if I can help it.

wiseowise• 2 years ago

To prove how awful and illogical Mac OS is I’m going to provide God knows what feature that 99.9 casual users don’t know or care about

Laughable.

Delk• 2 years ago

I tried even using local accounts but it causes significant issues in the OS.

Which kinds of issues? Honest question. I don't use Windows 11 a lot on my personal laptop but I set it up with a local account and haven't noticed any major issues in my limited use.

I don't use OneDrive or other MS services on it, though.

jzzskijj• 2 years ago

I am curious to learn too about this. I have managed to say at Windows 10 with strictly local accounts only.

giantg25• 2 years ago

Same here, I'm using a Win11 local account. I haven't had any issues yet, but I've haven't been using it very much. I also don't use things like OneDrive.

jakub_g• 2 years ago

It feels like MS has decided a few years ago there can only be one premium, quality vendor (Apple) and they give up and go the way of enshittification instead to get their $$$.

Writing this as a die-hard anti-Apple person, and I was one of a few Windows-based developers in my prev job (there are a few tools on Windows I liked that didn't have good counterparts on other platforms), but seeing where things are going, and having worked on a MBP for last few years, I'm not going back to Windows.

hollerith• 2 years ago

And they've only started trying to stuff AI down our throats.

ca_tech• 2 years ago

Your point is interesting because I see this across the home hardware industry. Cheap electronics were subsidized by data collection and I suppose that market was lucrative until it wasn't. It happened behind the scenes, we knew it was going on, but it was abstracted away enough that we did not think about it. Now what is happening is that the hardware providers are getting into the marketing game directly. Personally in the past year I've given up on two pieces of hardware Alexa and Roku because they have morphed into ad machines. The market is open for privacy, convenience, and quality. Unfortunately, Apple seems to be the only major player in that space right now and we are paying their premium.

gigel822• 2 years ago

Apple is already one of the largest ad companies in the world and they are clearly working very hard to get bigger($10.34 billion ad revenue in 2023).

Sure, they're great at PR and marketing themselves as "private" but they're just as bad as the rest of them. Also fan boys, I'd be willing to bet if Apple launches a "private personalized ad platform", the fanboys will be singing its praise instead of being appalled.

jollyllama2• 2 years ago

What's baffling to me is how this is acceptable to enterprise customers. Your "free PC" was acceptable to you as a poor student, but would never have been acceptable to them. Now, most of this bloatware remains on millions of work PCs.

itsyaboi• 2 years ago

ltsc

jjnoakes• 2 years ago

Any enterprise install I've ever used has the annoying stuff removed. Small businesses are most likely the ones suffering though.

CydeWeys3• 2 years ago

Enterprise customers aren't dealing with this BS. They get good Windows, not available to the rest of us :(

DEADMINCE2• 2 years ago

I’ve had to remove it all twice but with every significant update, somehow my settings get reversed and we’re back at square one.

You're not removing it properly. After I setup my first install of W10 nothing has ever been changed or reverted after any update.

DEADMINCE2• 2 years ago

Downvoted, but the fact remains. If your settings revert after every update, you didn't tame W10 properly. So those people downvoting likely have some reading to do, or they can downvote and keep feeling hurt and keep fixing their installs every couple of months.

bantunes• 2 years ago

There is no downside to MS's increasing enshittification of Windows.

If people keep using it, cool. If not, they'll release Windows 12 "now with zero ads and bloat!" and people will come flocking back from their year or so of Linux frustrations (there will be more than a few).

AJRF• 2 years ago

In case you don't know, there is a Windows version called IoT LTSC that strips all the spyware junk out and doesn't update often but is hardended.

It disables a bunch of features and will likely never enable them like CoPilot, Windows Store etc.

If you really must suffer Windows its worth seeing if it has the features you need.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise...

tr3ntg• 2 years ago

I clicked through to this webpage (and many of its linked pages) and I don't see how I could personally get a hold of this build. I'm eventually told that "if I want to learn more I should contact a Windows IoT Distributor" which is its own page with a lot of email addresses.

Am I missing something? Like many workarounds mentioned in this thread, this certainly doesn't seem to be one the average Windows user could reasonably take advantage of.

unethical_ban2• 2 years ago

https://massgrave.dev/windows_ltsc_links

That has reputable downloads, and the main page discusses paths to activation.

jjice2• 2 years ago

I'm so happy that I don't have any workflows that require Windows in my life, except for playing some games with my friends a few times a week. Other than that, I've been 100% Linux for personal use and MacOS for work.

I understand that Windows has a lot of exclusive software, but damn do I feel bad for those who need to use it. It's a real piece of trash compared to my mental "golden years" being in Windows 7.

Despite the meme, I've had a consistently good (and getting better) experience with the Linux desktop since I switched full time about four and a half years ago (with a lot of part time use before hand). There are definitely some things that come up that I know how to deal with because I work with Linux on a daily basis or I've seen it before, but we are making great progress towards it being a _very_ user friendly operating system.

Aeolun2• 2 years ago

The easiest way to do it on a PC you just took out of the box is to press Shift+F10 during the setup process to bring up a command prompt window, typing OOBE\BYPASSNRO, rebooting, and then clicking the "I don't have Internet" button when asked to connect to a Wi-Fi network.

The easiest way!

Windows is lost…

silentguy• 2 years ago

AFAICR, You don't have to reboot the machine. You can press `Shift+F10` again and run `ipconfig \release`. I could be wrong.

There are also some email ids (e.g. no@email.net ) in the sign up fields which allows you to create local accounts.

Not that these workarounds excuse all this user hostile behavior.

donatj• 2 years ago

We're passing some sort of threshold where their antics are starting to piss off the normies. I am very curious what comes of that.

I have had non-technical friends get so fed up with Windows that they're willing to try Linux. One of my friends is just loving Ubuntu except that he can't seem to get his printer to work. I should poke around with it.

RedShift1• 2 years ago

In bird culture this is called a dick move

denkmoon• 2 years ago

What a pointlessly antagonistic action. What marginal benefit in number of live account logins is being gained here, vs pissing off the people who care enough to search for this in the first place.

brainzap• 2 years ago

2024/25 is finally the year of the linux Desktop. Not because linux got better, but windows got hostile. xD

systemz• 2 years ago

I'm wondering when PC/laptop OEMs will see that user unfriendly Windows is scaring off their potential customers?

davidmurdoch• 2 years ago

They've seen it. These hostile changes are not things they're doing on a whim. They've determined they can make more money this way, so they do it.

Jedd• 2 years ago

To be fair to Microsoft, all the big tech companies want you to sign in with an account before you can use all the features of the software ...

That's just saying 'others are also doing awful things' which is no excuse at all - while ignoring the fact this is a single-node operating system paid for by you, and deployed on a machine you own.

To be more fair, make it easy for me to use local authentication and have zero reliance on (or exposure) to a potentially exploited [0] auth systems.

Maybe they want to see how many times the EU can come down on them in 2024.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37702095

Workaccount22• 2 years ago

Someone wake me up when there is a linux distro that hides the terminal.

Every successful OS hides the terminal and allows you to fix 99% of problems without having to copy+paste cryptic commands from a random website into a console.

Linux has so much promise but distro devs chronically keep leaning hard on the apache helicopter cockpit UI (the terminal) when the first thing mainstream OS devs do is turn the UI into a Honda Civic.

Yes, I have been on linux for 2 years now, and ready to go back to windows (again). If I had the time I'd learn how to make a distro just so I could make something that seasoned linux users would hate (and would actually be popular for once).

bee_rider6• 2 years ago

It is sort of funny that Linux has become around as user friendly as Windows. But, it is in the end a community project. You could try a Steam Deck, they have a customer-service orientation.

Why would a more conventional distro want to appeal to non-technical users? Even technical users don’t often contribute code or good bug reports. But non-technical users can’t.

Workaccount22• 2 years ago

Linux is as user friendly as windows if all you do is watch youtube and check emails.

tracker17• 2 years ago

Wild, I've been using Linux (Pop) for my personal desktop exclusively for a few years. The only terminal use for me has pretty much been related to software dev, and usually the integrated VS Code terminal.

Most config options are in Settings and don't recall using the Terminal for much outside the above context, where I would do the same in Windows (WSL) or Mac.

dustinsterk• 2 years ago

I have a Windows 10 machine for one thing only -- iRacing. For all other gaming needs I happily use my Steam Deck thanks to the amazing support from Steam.

I would happily pay MS for an OS that was zero bloat and only included the core functionality to support sim racing and the 3rd party hardware.

ragnese4• 2 years ago

I'm probably going to sound like a troll for saying this, but I hate when history gets conveniently "forgotten".

Please, don't forget how many people online (including here on HN) repeated the astroturf propaganda about how "Microsoft has changed" and "Nadella's not Gates and Ballmer" when Nadella first took over. Don't forget how anyone who dared type "EEE" was called a troll or at least stubborn and stuck in the past.

Microsoft sucks. They are a hostile company who absolutely abuses their market position and will never--ever--think twice about it. I don't want to hear whataboutism for Google and Apple--I have my complaints for them, too. But, I'm really bitter about how well the Nadella-MS marketing campaign worked on devs and IT people.

But, at least Microsoft "hearts" open source, right?

yyyfb• 2 years ago

When you look at GitHub, Visual code, and OpenAI, Microsoft looks like an innovation powerhouse who gets it.

Then you put Windows on a new machine and you remember that that Microsoft still exists. The thing is riddled with value-squeezing bullshit, like a stupid homepage in your browser filled with clickbaity crap, ads, requirements to sign up for an account just to use your own damn computer, etc.

I guess one of the benefits of Microsoft being able to operate with different cultures within the company is that, for example, they haven't killed GitHub the way that Google killed so many acquisitions. The problem though is that there not getting any culturally beneficial benefits back into their core and keep pumping a very crappy OS.

tracker17• 2 years ago

I've managed to convert a few family and friends to Linux (PopOS) at this point. A lot of games run under Wine/Proton without issue and most general use (email, facebook, youtube) pretty much just works for them.

While not all cases, one might be surprised how many could use Linux without issue if someone else installs and configures it for them. Much like Windows is installed and configured by someone else when the system is new.

ChrisArchitect• 2 years ago

[dupe]

More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301

place_order• 2 years ago

This has been the way for years and is not news. It is hilarious that anyone on any os, with any browser might search "how to take back control". To not have your bank account frozen, or the CPS come by for a visit.

These windows users are and have been trained not to think. It is best to keep them locked in and unaware.

My gripe is that an os that generates revenue isn't getting taxed. Like coin mining or in game loot drops.

prabhu-yu• 2 years ago

From past 2 years, for 98% of the time, I use Linux (Mint-Mate edition). I have nVidia p600 GPU and 4K monitor. Due to some reasons, scaling does not work fine in Xfce edition, but scaling at 1x works fine in Mate edition.

Given the limitations, still I feel, using GNU/Linux is better than Windows for most use cases like surfing web, Terminals, LibreOffice, SW development etc...

Woodi• 2 years ago

Do MS managers do Altavista & Co ? Sell NOW !

Or maybe they are trying to prepare us for buying v12 soon ? :>

Also: I planned to stay on Win10 for gaming but they makes "W*" so disgusting that will move to Linux as soon as free time comes. And that is tomorrow ! Hurray !

zulban• 2 years ago

When these user hostile windows threads popup regularly I'm genuinely baffled how people can complain and so thoroughly document workarounds instead of just using Linux. Work machines are a different story, but you control your life at home. What do you want? Choose.

gaius_baltar3• 2 years ago

Funniest thing is that they are the same people who reject Linux because they need to read some docs from time to time.

EchoReflection• 2 years ago

It's shocking how awful Micro$oft is.

bithead• 2 years ago

Every time I've been a situation in building cloud infrastructure when multiple vendors have been involved in a complex problem and one of those vendors was microsoft, they've always been the worst to deal with.

kjreact2• 2 years ago

I read through these threads and no one blames Nadella for these decisions. But when Google makes a mistake inevitably someone will blame it on the poor leadership of Pichai. Why does HN have a double standard for Nadella?

hmry• 2 years ago

Perhaps it's because there are lots of old Googlers on HN who remember "the good old days where we weren't evil" and blame the changes on new management, while MS has been evil since its founding and the last few years under Nadella have actually been the least evil... though that's not a high bar, and looks to be changing currently.

kjreact2• 2 years ago

This explanation makes sense, Nadella is a much better CEO than Ballmer. But I hope HN can hold Nadella accountable for Microsoft’s key decisions in the future instead of blaming MS as a faceless corporation because Nadella is the face of MS. And the decision to make Windows into an OS that spies on its users for the sake of increasing ad revenues is a decision that must have been made at the top.

Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local account in Windows 11

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