The Tesla Semi cab from the practical POV of someone who drives trucks

https://twitter.com/torynski/status/1600968583055826944

by danso • 4 years ago

520 497 4 years ago

dools• 4 years ago

Somewhat related is the new Janus electric truck retrofitting system rolling out now in Australia https://www.januselectric.com.au/

spamizbad• 4 years ago

This mirrors some Facebook comments from my trucker buddy that had a few of the same complaints, although his take was a bit more optimistic (he thinks Tesla will fix the flaws in an updated model soon as he doesn't think this will sell.)

_ea1k12• 4 years ago

Yeah, its not as if a cab redesign would be difficult if that ends up being an obstacle. TBH, though, I'm guessing it works better in practice than they let on. They've had a few years of testing, for better or worse.

bombcar3• 4 years ago

I really think the difference is going to be long-haul vs short delivery trucks.

Also remember the people buying the short-haul delivery trucks ain't the ones drivin' them.

johnthuss• 4 years ago

"Drivers sits in the middle. This makes overtaking or looking ahead more difficult. But also makes it impossible to reach out of the window to pass the paperwork or to talk with the guy in the gatehouse when you enter a port or a factory or, say, a tollbooth."

This one seems like the worst one of all these criticisms.

function_seven3• 4 years ago

My guess is that they needed to get the drag coefficient down, and did so by first raking the windshield back, then pinching the cab horizontally to get some more gains. That narrowing of the cab then led to the center-seat arrangement?

Bonus being that you don't need to configure a LHD and RHD version of this truck for different markets.

eastbound• 4 years ago

Different markets can’t be addressed with the same truck anyway. Lights are different, mandatory equipment is different, EU trucks are limited cabin-inclusive, US trucks are cabin-exclusive, etc.

three_seagrass3• 4 years ago

LHD/RHD swamp doesn't really matter given that the truck is probably too long for UK.

They would still need to swap out headlights anyways.

MBCook3• 4 years ago

Efficiency seemed like the reason for the tilted windshield too.

kelnos7• 4 years ago

This truck still appears to have a passenger seat on the right side, though, despite the driver being in the middle? So presumably they'd still have to reconfigure it for RHD.

raldi• 4 years ago

Worst as in most salient or least?

NikolaNovak• 4 years ago

As in, the most damning, or the least relevant?

jjulius4• 4 years ago

Most damning. The driver being able to easily lean out the window to talk to people as it passes tolls, inspection points, hell, weigh stations, is important. That all of these engineers and designers massively overlooked such a vital component of truck driving out of Tesla's own hubris is hilariously embarrassing, IMO.

Alupis9• 4 years ago

The most damning in that they obviously didn't consult any real truck drivers or truck manufacturing companies to figure out why things are the way they are, before setting out to try improving them.

We see this a lot with smart inexperienced developers taking on entire industries with hopes of "disruption" - but lack even the most basic understanding of that industry and it's problems. The hubris necessary to assume everyone in the industry are dumb and just haven't thought about these novel improvements is very high...

three_seagrass3• 4 years ago

I dunno. I get annoyed just having to unbuckle and get out of my seat for parking tickets that are out of reach.

I can't imagine having to do repeatedly do this while maneuvering a big rig around a stockyard. Or did you mean it was one of the most valid criticisms?

belval• 4 years ago

Indeed, I wonder if they will be able to address this fast enough because it does seem serious. Same goes for the mirrors that are out of reach of the driver for easy cleaning. It could be a pain point.

I guess the author wanted the pile-on a bit, but the rest feels a bit more like "this isn't how we are currently doing it so it's just wrong", especially when it comes to the shape of the truck. Being aerodynamic seems like a good way to increase the range.

nine_k2• 4 years ago

Mirrors this big can have sweepers, like the windshield.

labcomputer3• 4 years ago

I guess the author wanted the pile-on a bit, but the rest feels a bit more like "this isn't how we are currently doing it so it's just wrong", especially when it comes to the shape of the truck.

I got that impression, too, but in more ways.

1. The interior shots I've seen show blind spot cameras (on the tablets that he doesn't like). That seems like it would address the problem with visibility from the center driver position, and probably goes a long way to addressing the mirror-cleaning issue he mentioned.

2. Why couldn't Tesla just have a little wiper-fluid squirter on each mirror to clean it off remotely? (and do we know they don't already have that?)

3. Tesla already coats their glass roofs with something that blocks lots of IR and UV, but little visible light (and makes the roof of older Teslas a very strange color when viewed from outside). I would assume they are aware of the HVAC issue and apply a similar treatment to the Semi windscreen.

Tesla has been testing these things for like 5 years now, and the Semis have been seen at Pepsi warehouses for about a year. It seems unlikely that Pepsi would take delivery of a truck with such obviously fatal flaws after a year of acceptance tests... so I bet there are mitigations for most or all of the issues identified.

pastor_bob2• 4 years ago

Do these front windows even roll down? Might be a moot point

KaiserPro• 4 years ago

Its not a problem in the states, but in the EU/country with cyclists, you'll never see the 20/30 of them that are sneaking down the inside of you at a junction.

feifan3• 4 years ago

The displays have downward-facing cameras covering what looks like the blind spots next to the cab

eecc• 4 years ago

Look, here in the EU we have plenty cyclists getting killed daily by trucks of the current “benchmark” design. Just the other week https://www.adnkronos.com/e-morto-davide-rebellin-ex-ciclist... so meh, these arguments about dead spots are just pearl clutching. The truck has more cameras than a bank, it’ll probably do better than what we have today

ortusdux• 4 years ago

I wonder how this cab design would affect interactions with the police. I did not realize that you enter via a corridor behind the driver seat. US officers do not respond well to people getting out of the vehicle during stops.

mediaman3• 4 years ago

True, but I don't think police are as worried about long-haul truckers behaving well, versus someone in a civilian car. The trucker needs to keep their CDL, and they do trucking professionally.

LegitShady• 4 years ago

ya maybe we should check with the police before doing anything. Or not.

avree• 4 years ago

It's still got windows. Why would someone need to leave the vehicle to interact with police? I must be missing something.

JustSomeNobody2• 4 years ago

It's almost as if Musk and his "designers" have never seen a weigh/inspection station.

Simon_O_Rourke• 4 years ago

I highly doubt it, but unless it's some crafty scheme to sell the same cabs to both the UK/Australia/Japan and the USA without modification.

Doubt it though, the simplest explanation in this case is probably design ignorance.

lamontcg• 4 years ago

This one seems like the worst one of all these criticisms.

Weird that so many people can't figure out what was meant here.

I know the literal English is ambiguous but it should be obvious what was the intended reading.

newsclues3• 4 years ago

Good, we can go paperless and minimize human contact and viral exposure with digital paperwork and authorization systems and intercoms. No need to roll down the windows and let the climate controlled air get dirty and hot/cold.

greedo• 4 years ago

You do realize that there are literally thousands of weigh stations in the US that would need to be upgraded? They're run individually by the states, who will have minimal incentive to cooperate.

MisterTea• 4 years ago

I'd say one of the worst things about this truck is you cant bail out of the thing as the door is behind the seat. Ever see that video where the tow truck driver bails out after the truck he is towing slides off the icy road and down a steep hill and takes the tow truck with it? You don't have time to walk around the seat.

The driver sitting in the middle makes it clear no on at Tesla ever drove a truck. I have and the driver sitting in the middle does will not help with visibility. You want to be able to stick your head out and look right down the side of the truck. This is important as you cant see everything from the mirrors and in addition they can be broken, missing, iced up, fogged, etc. Same with cameras in case you thought they are solutions.

rightbyte• 4 years ago

Ye. Looking around the corner when cornering is the main problem with centre seat. Not opening gates with a keypad.

bamboozled2• 4 years ago

It's because in the future, you won't talk to anyone, it will be Teslsa botz doing everything! Duh?

meragrin_2• 4 years ago

"Drivers sits in the middle. This makes overtaking or looking ahead more difficult.
This one seems like the worst one of all these criticisms.

Seems like it would be a feature if the driver couldn't see over cars and trucks. Maybe they would actually keep to a safer distance.

avgDev• 4 years ago

"Build around driver" - Tesla

suzakus2• 4 years ago

Loves public transport and hates driving? Not awfully likely in the US. Our public transport is fairly abysmal outside a few large cities.

stonogo• 4 years ago

Did you upgrade OP's words from "uses" to "loves" or did someone edit their comment?

wilg6• 4 years ago

It would be more useful to have the perspective of someone who actually drives one. When people see a different design it’s easy to come up with lots of ways it’s different from what you’re used to but you can’t really see which problems have been solved in a different way than you might assume.

Plus, it’s a day cab so it’s not surprising there’s no obvious place for a bed.

Also, it’s strange that someone would think it’s a “rich boy’s toy” like rich boys are going to be buying semi trucks for fun.

littlestymaar• 4 years ago

Elon is the rich boy here.

wilg6• 4 years ago

Yes, I understand. But it does not make sense for this to somehow be a toy for him.

bequanna• 4 years ago

Plenty of “rich” blue collar people in the Midwest have equipment that is much more expensive/luxurious than would be required for the job.

For example, $100k pickup trucks are not necessary for farmers but still very common.

wilg6• 4 years ago

Yeah but it being more luxurious than required doesn't make it ill-suited for the job.

kortilla• 4 years ago

For example, $100k pickup trucks are not necessary for farmers but still very common.

That’s because they also serve as a daily driver, so that’s not a good comparison.

A pure overpriced utility would be like a luxury combine.

Gibbon1• 4 years ago

Noise I hear from my non media back channels is people that need trucks for business hate the new trucks.

MBCook3• 4 years ago

Every single thing the author said seems like it would apply to drivers who don’t need sleeper cabins, other than the lack of bed space of course.

nluken• 4 years ago

Note that the author of this thread is comparing to European-style trucks. I am not a trucker so I would be interested to hear whether American-style trucks have similar flaws, or whether these are specific to the Tesla Semi.

pornel• 4 years ago

This sounds very much like a "designed in California" problem. Who would have thought about mud, frosted mirrors, border crossings…

anigbrowl4• 4 years ago

Maybe 'designed in the Bay Area'. If you take a look at a map you'll notice that California has significant mountain ranges and shares a border with Mexico.

sgc• 4 years ago

California is not all sunshine and beaches. They have been driving them over a mountain pass in the Sierra-Nevada between Reno and Fremont for years now. They are willfully ignoring problems, not unaware of them.

jjulius4• 4 years ago

I work adjacent to truck drivers in the US and can vouch for a lot of these concerns, especially the placement of the driver in the center. Being able to easily reach out of the window easily is vital to that job.

JustSomeNobody2• 4 years ago

I work adjacent to truck drivers in the US...

Likewise. And you're correct.

rootusrootus11• 4 years ago

The first American electric semi has a traditional layout, driver on the left, normal doors, normal ingress and egress. About the same as the European truck except it is not a cabover design and there is a nose in front of the windshield.

_ea1k12• 4 years ago

I'm always a little skeptical of long form complaints that mix seemingly important things (papers please) with seemingly trivial preferences (he doesn't like where he'd doff his boots?). Its a day cab, not a sleeper, so that whole section of complaints is fairly irrelevant.

OTOH, he makes some good points about the ergonomics of seat and door placement. But are these really the things that will drive or diminish sales?

Put another way, imagine that you were a truck driver and a day cab would be sufficient. Now imagine one saved a few dozen $$ per day in fuel costs. Would you put up with not taking your shoes off where you want to in exchange for a few dollars?

These are good insights, but the framing seems a bit hyperbolic.

osrec3• 4 years ago

Why not just stick to the older, more convenient design?

function_seven3• 4 years ago

The older design isn't as aerodynamic. And that's very important for a battery-powered truck.

tempestn• 4 years ago

That may be, but that's exactly the irritating thing about Tesla. They make great drivetrains, but then anchor them to all these "innovations" that most people don't want. These sound like the truck equivalents of falcon wing doors, yoke steering wheels and touchscreen HVAC controls.

kodah• 4 years ago

I can't speak from the perspective of a truck driver, but I drove CAT vehicles in the military in-country. We lived in them as well. The reason the boots part is important is because if you're living in a vehicle the dirty parts house a lot of nasty stuff that will get you sick. To offset that, you pull everything out of the truck and clean it. If you have to keep doing this then it adds stressful and exhausting repetitious work to your work life. If you ignore it you get sick. It's easier to pick a truck that matches your needs, and frankly, it's usually the small things that matter in big purchases.

_ea1k12• 4 years ago

Oh, I get it now. This complaint goes back to the whole sleeper cab problem. Its not a sleeper cab, so differentiating a dirty section from a clean section like that seems less important to me.

I get his point if he doesn't want his dirty boots near his bed in the back, but that's impossible with this setup anyway.

CrimsonRain• 4 years ago

Watch Tesla add a boot washer instead of modifying cab layout dramatically!

albertopv• 4 years ago

My father has been a truck driver for about 30 years, Tesla truck was clearly designed by people knowing nothing about heavy transport stuff. Papers are still a thing, drivers like to have a clean cabin, really, but they don't like to waste time, especially when they have to in and out cabin several times in few minues.

katmannthree• 4 years ago

Not to be patronizing but it sounds like you don't have much experience with work boots or jobs that actually need them. If a driver spends their time going between relatively clean locations then yes, it's a relatively trivial complaint. The problem is that's often not the case: If they have to visit remote, heavy industrial, or some types of farm locations their boots will constantly end up caked in mud, random chemicals, or various biological debris. As someone who has dealt with all of the above, I find the complaint about door placement to be every bit as big a deal as having to get out of the seat at guardhouses.

_ea1k12• 4 years ago

Fair enough. TBH, a lot of it is that I just misunderstood him. I get the concern that this will spread the dirt over a larger area, including some of the space that really should have been usable for storage. It looks like a bad tradeoff in several important ways.

osrec3• 4 years ago

I actually think this is a very good analysis. A lot of Tesla vehicles feel like they value form over function.

What really was interesting for me, was the fact that electric trucks from more established players exist already, but haven't really taken off.

Maybe the Musk x-factor will allow Tesla to sell their truck where others have failed.

rootusrootus11• 4 years ago

A lot of Tesla vehicles feel like they value form over function.

As far as I can tell, that would be all of them. And if rumors are true, Tesla might be about to escalate that to the next level with their bread-and-butter cars. Brave, or stupid, ask in a year.

joshgachnang2• 4 years ago

What rumors are you talking about?

NegativeK2• 4 years ago

The 3 is the most functional car I've ever had. It's stripped away all of the repetitive and unnecessary stuff I had to do when I'd sit down in a car. Yes, it's made accessing buttons more difficult, but those are (personally) all buttons for things that I don't need to touch while I'm driving.

That said, I'm not sure I'd buy it again due to (effectively) political bullshit. And the choices for this semi do look like they're the opposite end of usability compared to the 3/Y.

_ph_2• 4 years ago

Depends on hat you consider "function". All Tesla vehicles are very aerodynamic. That means of course a bit less "practical" body shapes. Like lower headroom towards the back. So the question is, do you define functional as the most easy to use design, or the most efficient design? Efficiency does mean higher range, which is important for electrical vehicles.

hn_throwaway_994• 4 years ago

Has nothing to do with the body shape. 2 simple examples:

1. I don't think I've heard anyone (who doesn't work at Tesla) ever say anything positive about the driving yoke.

2. Using touch screens for everything. Obviously touchscreens have the benefit of allowing the UI to be reconfigurable, but other companies have done a much better job of having important physical buttons/controls where it makes sense.

letmevoteplease• 4 years ago

The other electric semis have half the range.

https://twitter.com/TheEVuniverse/status/1599487909156880384

rootusrootus11• 4 years ago

Due to battery size, or aero?

nephanth• 4 years ago

I mean, a lot of car buyers value form over function

Dah00n4• 4 years ago

But likely 0 out of 1000 that buy semis.

spaceman_20204• 4 years ago

For the life of me, I can't fathom the EV obsession with touchscreens.

Why?! I can understand one touchscreen for complex functions, but at least retain buttons for core functions. No one wants to tap five different screens to control the AC direction or wiper blades.

annexrichmond• 4 years ago

maybe one reason is that it's far cheaper to do touchscreens than a bunch of individual parts and circuit boards? And EVs are already pretty expensive and need to be competitive, so maybe they try to cut costs where they can.

Add to that, I'm sure some market research is telling them either touch screens are popular, or that it's not a deal breaker for most people

maxerickson2• 4 years ago

It's not a good reason, but it cuts down on part count and assembly time (and complexity).

jackmott422• 4 years ago

It isn't just EVs, it is all new cars.

kelnos7• 4 years ago

A lot of Tesla vehicles feel like they value form over function.

I generally find Teslas to be pretty unattractive from the form perspective. Body-wise, the Model 3 looks too "tall" to me from the back. The interior doesn't look spartan to me, it looks empty in a cheap sort of way. For the models where the touchscreen is on a mount rather than embedded in the dash, it looks bolted-on rather than designed.

Sure, these things are subjective, but I don't really think Teslas look all that nice, inside or out. My feeling is that much of the drooling over Tesla aesthetics is Musk's version of the Jobs Realty Distortion Field. Sure, early Tesla models had body designs way better than any other EV out there, but other manufacturers are catching up, and IMO the Model 3 is a step back, aesthetics-wise, from the Model S.

pclmulqdq2• 4 years ago

The model 3 is designed to be cheap. It's designed to be the first "luxury" car that someone would buy, before they understand what a real car interior for a $40,000+ car is like.

Jonanin• 4 years ago

This may be a well informed take (or not), but it's hard to think he doesn't have an axe to grind when the first sentence is an information-free put down ending in a clown emoji. Would love to see a more neutral analysis.

porphyra• 4 years ago

The cab forward design that OP prefers is so much more sensible and practical than the "standard" cab design that's so common in the US.

The Tesla Semi is more aerodynamic than its peers though. I wonder how you can improve the aerodynamics without having a narrow front or sloped windshield.

ErikCorry• 4 years ago

The cab-forward design is driven by Europe having a max length for trucks that includes the tractor, whereas in the US the max length doesn't include the tractor.

For this reason I don't expect to see the Tesla Semi in Europe soon.

Alupis9• 4 years ago

Which means more cabin room, which means more comfort for resting/sleeping/relaxing in addition to driving for folks that literally live in these vehicles for days or weeks at a time.

For this reason I don't expect to see the Tesla Semi in Europe soon

I'm not expecting to see the Tesla Semi in the US soon either... it's a product in search of a problem.

bombcar3• 4 years ago

The most "aerodynamic" shape is a teardrop, with a relatively flat front end, so they could probably do something with that.

The "roll down window" thing is relatively easy to solve if they want to; you either make a seat that can slide to the side or redesign the front end.

I expect a redesign of the cab when the truck isn't selling every single one they can make.

three_seagrass3• 4 years ago

Not to mention skirts and tails on the trailer do more to improve aerodynamics than truck modifications. Still, every bit counts I guess.

rootusrootus11• 4 years ago

make a seat that can slide to the side

I wonder if that would even be sufficient. The sloped sides mean that even if the driver can sit directly next to the window, there's still a hard limit on how close he can get to whatever he is next to.

teo_zero• 4 years ago

A teardrop has a "relatively flat front end" just as every rounded shape has a point where its tangent plane is vertical, even a sphere, the "less flat" shape I can think of! It doesn't mean you can place a vertical windscreen in that point and still claim you're copying a teardrop's shape.

modeless4• 4 years ago

Yeah he seems to not understand the importance of aerodynamics, as demonstrated by his complaint that you need extra power to run the AC because of the sloped windshield. The Tesla Semi will be consuming around 100 kW at cruising speed. Air resistance is the largest single contributor to that consumption. AC is likely to take something like 6 kW even at the highest setting. I'd bet that even in worst case heat the difference in AC consumption between vertical and sloped windshield (1 kW? less?) will be totally swamped by the improved aerodynamics. And then in the winter extra heat capture will be an advantage rather than a disadvantage.

There are some good points in here but there's clearly a strong bias.

rootusrootus11• 4 years ago

you need extra power to run the AC because of the sloped windshield

My impression was the the complaint about the sloped windshield was primarily about snow; the air conditioning complaint had more to do with the enormous size. It's a big glass greenhouse.

bamboozled2• 4 years ago

I think the issue is, they designed a truck being worried about aerodynamics than anything else. They made it aerodynamic and forgot to ask about how it actually should work in practice.

mrguyorama• 4 years ago

I genuinely had the same thoughts. Just the fact that it was so clearly different showed that Tesla hadn't even talked to actual truckers about it. It's significantly more cramped than a roomy American style cab, and has very little room for the things a trucker might bring with them.

Truckers also occasionally bring family with them on some trips, and this cab makes that kind of thing impossible.

alkonaut• 4 years ago

I agree with the complaints it’s not built for/around the driver. It’s built for range. Having a vertical windscreen just isn’t going to be efficient. The window deicing problem is worth solving to get the range of a streamlined front. The next iteration of this vehicle will likely solve many of these complaints (of which some seem poorly designed for no obvious reason) but I doubt it will ever have a vertical windscreen.

glogla• 4 years ago

It is not interesting just to see that the design is bad, but that it is getting worse over time. Model S was relatively normal car. Model X added crazy doors. Model 3 has tablet in the middle and no physical controls and bunch of other stupid decisions (but normal doors). The Semi has all these issues. And the Cybertruck is just entirely plain idiotic as a whole.

It is as if the Tesla designers (or Musk micromanaging them) are getting more and more detached from reality.

wilg6• 4 years ago

The Model 3/Y have many physical controls and is great to drive! The doors on the X are pretty silly though.

rootusrootus11• 4 years ago

The Model 3 today is alright. Would be significantly better with auto presenting door handles, a normal latch for the glovebox, an infrared sensor for rain, and the option to use old school cruise control.

The thought that they might do something silly like a yoke and "automatic" gear selection in the Model 3 is a bit horrifying. That will push away a lot of the regular folks who just want their car to be a car. Hell, I'd like to be able to turn OFF autopilot on my model 3 altogether, because I'd happily give up lane keeping just for the ability to use old-school cruise control.

Sebb767• 4 years ago

Model 3 has tablet in the middle and no physical controls and bunch of other stupid decisions (but normal doors).

Which is a dealbreaker for me as well, but people seem to accept and/or like it. The number of orders speak for themselves and, while I hear a lot of complaints from owners, the tablet is usually not one of them.

samwillis• 4 years ago

My expectation is that Teslas real play with the Semi is a long term plan for self driving trucks.

It seems to me that "backhaul" routs are the most likely to benefit from self driving, either with a person on board or not. Use a self driving truck, where you aren't paying a driver by the hour. It doesn't need to overtake, can drive at the most economical speed. It can stick to very well controlled and mapped routes. Restrict them to certain lanes on the road. Place depots at the exit/entry points to the backhaul where the cab is swapped out for one with a driver.

They may claim this is "designed around the driver", but the reality is it's designed around (eventually) making the driver redundant.

Why design a cab to be optimised to the driver when you plan to remove them. No, you design around efficiency, that's what they have done here.

That's not to say I believe that Tesla will achieve that, or that this can is well designed. I think it will be companies with a long history in the industry, understanding of their local markets, that will do this.

flutas2• 4 years ago

It seems to me that "backhaul" routs are the most likely to benefit from self driving, either with a person on board or not. Use a self driving truck, where you aren't paying a driver by the hour. It doesn't need to overtake, can drive at the most economical speed. It can stick to very well controlled and mapped routes. Restrict them to certain lanes on the road. Place depots at the exit/entry points to the backhaul where the cab is swapped out for one with a driver.

Stage one of that is probably "Convoy Mode" as they call it.

“Convoy Mode,” which optimizes efficiency while allowing several uncrewed trucks to follow a lead, crewed vehicle.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/16/tesla-semi-has-the-technic...

NOTE: not talking about feasibility one way or the other, just mentioning that they have claimed similar goals in the past.

reaperducer3• 4 years ago

My expectation is that Teslas real play with the Semi is a long term plan for self driving trucks.

Then Tesla has a lot of catching up to do.

Other companies have been running driverless big rigs between Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio for at least two years.

kelnos7• 4 years ago

I was about to say driving at the most economical speed is a non-starter, as truck drivers in the current regime feel pressured to complete their trips faster. But of course a driverless truck doesn't need to stop to sleep, just to charge, so it can probably drive slower and still complete trips in a shorter overall time.

simondotau7• 4 years ago

I’d be far more interested in hearing thoughts from someone who has actually driven the Semi.

pastor_bob2• 4 years ago

"What's the point of these complaints when the driver will be replaced by FSD in one year" - Elon

rootusrootus11• 4 years ago

One hopes that between boondoggles like this, the roadster, cybertruck, yoke, FSD, not to mention Twitter, that people will become more skeptical and realistic instead of swallowing everything Elon says without any critical thought.

themagician11• 4 years ago

Tesla knows all this.

This truck is for a very specific niche: owned fleets near two warehouses or within a 500 mile round trip from a major port. Basically: all the warehouses in the Inland Empire near LAX and Long Beach and the warehouses in the Newark area that service the NYC metro area. It has the potential to dramatically reduce costs for some routes/corridors.

It will be a big hit in these areas. It will have a large impact on a very specific niche. There's nothing wrong with that. These aren't going to be used by independent truckers. It's not for them. It's for drivers making the same 80-100 mile or so trip from port to warehouse every day.

elijaht• 4 years ago

I don't see how that is relevant. Nearly all of the criticisms posed (maybe not the snow one?) would still be relevant to a driver in the situation you describe. This has nothing to do with range or even the fact that it's electric

hn_throwaway_994• 4 years ago

While I largely agree with you, there are at least a subset of the complaints in the Twitter thread that are pretty inconsequential if the truck is only intended for < 500 mile routes (for example, the "no space for a bed" complaint).

themagician11• 4 years ago

Most of the criticism assumes people will be in these cabs for 8 hours at a time. They won't. This is for very short trips. We are talking 80-100 mi each way. 2-3 hrs in each direction, max. It's not for independent truckers.

jackmott422• 4 years ago

The central seating position issues become less relevant for this use case.

lukas099• 4 years ago

It has the potential to dramatically reduce costs for some routes/corridors.

This alone is extremely relevant.

luckydata• 4 years ago

all the criticism is from the point of view of a european trucker dealing with weather. The only weather those trucks will be dealing with is hot and hotter, and the cab shape and size is normal for US trucks.

That tweet stream is mostly an uninformed nothing burger and this comment comes from someone that HATES Elon Musk.

braingenious• 4 years ago

These sorts of posts always show up anywhere that somebody posts anything remotely critical of a Tesla product. They could make a combination trash compactor-bassinet that randomly switches modes and somebody would come out of the woodwork and post “People don’t realize the value in maximizing functionality in small spaces”

kiratp4• 4 years ago

Except the driver (user) is not the buyer.

See also - medical health record systems.

scyzoryk_xyz• 4 years ago

What if it is relevant and all the criticisms are true?

It’s a big world - a company targeting a very specific narrow niche in a specific location sounds like a great strategy for getting started. And it wouldn’t invalidate the euro truck driver insights on what would work for Europe’s logistics reality.

epolanski4• 4 years ago

I'm not following, how would it reduce costs over different trucks?

feifan3• 4 years ago

Cost-per-mile is cheaper from electricity than from diesel, and it's expected to have lower maintenance costs too (fewer moving parts, no oil changes, etc)

themagician11• 4 years ago

The cost per mile will be radically lower IF (big if) customers can actually achieve the wholesale electric rates that Tesla estimates are possible. Like, dramatically lower. The cost of diesel over 1 million miles is going to be north of $600k easily. At Elon's "guaranteed" 7¢/kwh the cost to run a Tesla Semi over the same mileage is about 1/3rd.

This truck is designed to be an efficient workhorse for short routes with owned fleets.

simondotau7• 4 years ago

how would it reduce costs

https://youtu.be/BiJ45_hXJe0?t=69

anigbrowl4• 4 years ago

Besides the fact that other electric trucks already exist, I question the roadworthiness of a design that doesn't have any instrumentation directly in front of the driver (like a speedometer...) and that puts the driver several paces and a corner away from a door, which seems like a distinct disadvantage in the event of a crash or a fire.

quonn5• 4 years ago

There is really no difference if the speedometer is in front (actually below) or to the right. In both cases your eyes have to refocus. I tried both. It‘s a non-issue in the Model 3/Y.

alistairSH• 4 years ago

Still can’t hand papers out the window, which happens to all trucks (weigh stations aren’t optional, etc).

Still getting mud all over the inside with the door behind the seat. Even if you aren’t sleeping in it, you’re spending time there.

themagician11• 4 years ago

Minor inconvenience. Pepsi doesn't care how you hand papers to someone. FedEx doesn't care if you get mud in the cab, you'll just have to clean it after your shift.

This is the kind of efficiency tool that will be bought by large corporations and forced on drivers.

_ea1k12• 4 years ago

TBH, I really wonder if fuel delivery would be a big market eventually. There seems to be a lot of traffic between near-urban terminals and urban gas stations that is very inefficient with diesel semis.

rsynnott4• 4 years ago

It's for drivers making the same 80-100 mile or so trip from port to warehouse every day.

Why the range, then? Surely something lower-range (and thus cheaper) would be preferable there.

TylerE2• 4 years ago

Trucks tend to have lots of idle time - truckers like their comms and climate control to work while they’re waiting to get loaded, for one.

Also, you might have a local truck used in more than one back to back shift.

TaylorAlexander• 4 years ago

It sounds like Tesla has a lot to prove to skeptical truckers, so a big number on range can head off some criticism.

I think what people are saying is that there are a lot of 80-100 mile trips that this can serve, where the criticisms aren’t really a big issue. But more range still means expanded use cases.

aidenn0• 4 years ago

Also note that (nearly?) all EU trucks are cab-over-engine because laws in Europe on the overall length of the truck are more strict, so you get more cargo for the same LOA vs a conventional cab. Author of TFA certainly appears to be in Europe.

jeffbee2• 4 years ago

If that's the use case then Tesla has entered the market late and with an inappropriate solution. You can already buy that local route electric truck from 4 different legit truck companies.

kelnos7• 4 years ago

It snows in the NYC metro area, so all the complaints about how the truck is unsuitable for snow are still applicable.

jahewson• 4 years ago

Wait so Tesla knows that it's not possible for the driver to reach out the window to hand over the paperwork necessary to get into and out of a port, or through scales, because... the truck is designed for ports. Ok then.

ThePadawan• 4 years ago

It's for drivers making the same 80-100 mile or so trip from port to warehouse every day.

So this truck is bad as a truck...except for the use case where it should have been a train in the first place?

a4isms• 4 years ago

I am not a trucker, so I can't comment on the veracity of TFA's claims. But this rant reminds me of many similar things I've read about products that were designed by people only had superficial experience with the industry they are trying to disrupt.

A lot of the things that matter aren't necessarily obvious to the designer or engineer who knows little about the nuts and bolts of every field. The usual remedy is to either follow a design process that incorporates user viewpoints, or to hire people with direct experience in the field.

Take the "wiping the mirrors" complaint. One design makes it easy to lean out the window and wipe the mirror by hand. Another design might make the mirrors retractible.

If I read a complain that retracting the mirrors was unnecessary complexity, I would think "Hmm, maybe, but then again it's a tradeoff because the narrow cab is more aero and increases range." I'd have a feeling that the designers knew this was an important use case, but this person complaining doesn't like their solution.

But it worries me that a number of use cases that seem quite obviously common even to a layperson... Are neglected outright. I don't get the impression that Tesla knew about all this and decided not to do anything about them, I get the impression that this is a company who thinks "design" is all about styling, and not about usability.

Somebody resurrect Steve Jobs.

blagie2• 4 years ago

My general design process:

1. Design it myself. Get my ideas on paper before I'm biased.

2. Review designs. See how other people did it.

3. Talk to experts.

4. Integrate ideas and build it.

Most of my clever ideas turn out to be dumb at step #2 or #3, but a few pan out, and those have been important. In many cases, there is some kind of fusion too.

It seems someone missed steps 2-4 here.

V__• 4 years ago

That sounds intriguing. Can you talk about some success (and failures)?

nazka• 4 years ago

Sometimes I actually do a slightly similar one. I do 3. 2. 1. 4.

I also sometimes skip point 2. to avoid any bias and follow their own pitfalls instead using my own creativity from the raw material of point 3.

But your workflow is great. :) It's the same than Apple or Ford when they created the first cars. Like their famous quote: if Ford asked first to experts what the next transportation will be they would have said faster horses. It had to start from a visionary first and not experts.

spaceman_20204• 4 years ago

I'm not a designer but one principle I've adopted in most things I purchase is to minimize complexity. My goal is always to optimize for "least willpower consumed". Because I know that if its not easy to do, I'll just skip it after a long day.

If I was making something for professionals who might use the tool for long, tiring hours, I'd probably want to give them the least bit of complexity possible. At the end of an 8 hour shift, how many truckers will have the energy (or rather, spare willpower) to press a button, wait for the mirrors to retract, clean it, and press the button to get it back into its original position? Compare that to the much simpler single-step current process (grab cloth, clean mirror).

The fewer clicks, the fewer steps, the fewer movements something takes, usually, the better.

_ea1k12• 4 years ago

Considering that the original lead for the project was also the lead for the Cascadia, I don't think its fair to say that they lacked people with industry knowledge.

neither_color• 4 years ago

If anything it reminds me of all the arguments on slashdot when iPhone was announced that it would never take off because full touchscreen phones without a physical keyboard were a gimmick.

SketchySeaBeast• 4 years ago

Is the difference here is there is already long running expectations? The iPhone was charting a brand new course across undiscovered seas, how trucks drivers interact with their vehicle is an experience with literally generations of data.

TylerE2• 4 years ago

Slashdot is the Jim Cramer of tech. (“No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame”).

makeitdouble• 4 years ago

But then we also had the cybertruck that seems stuck because of its design, or the hyperloop. It wouldn't be Elon's first dumb idea.

andrepd2• 4 years ago

Fat fingering an instagram post rarely causes an accident which can delete a family from existence in half a second. The argument against touchscreens in vehicles is sound, not just contrarianism.

alpaca128• 4 years ago

The Tesla semi design is the exact opposite of the iPhone's keyboard removal. It's larger but still less useful and flexible because its use of space is so inefficient.

The smartphone's lack of a physical keyboard is a tradeoff that works well for most users who tend to consume a lot of media content and rarely write long texts on it. According to that truck driver the Tesla semi is not a tradeoff but a downgrade without any upsides.

runlevel13• 4 years ago

Here's that Slashdot thread: https://apple.slashdot.org/story/07/01/09/1857231/iphone-app...

People appear pretty excited on average. Most of the naysayers seem to be metahumor about the community's bad take about the iPod.

Mawr• 4 years ago

Phones are toys, cars are tools. Completely different design requirements.

ncr100• 4 years ago

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater: There are STILL lots of real UX issues with touchscreens.

- Answer the phone without looking at it

- Start sending a text message without looking at it

- BLIND PEOPLE

Etc, real concerns do exist.

imperialdrive• 4 years ago

Heck, even most of what Microsoft designs/builds/releases is after-the-fact mind boggling un-user-friendly, and they are mostly working on their own and hugely deployed products with many years of real world experience already under their belt. And they still screw it up regularly! I don't readily know what one would call this phenomenon. Is it as serious as technical cancer? Dementia? If feels like a disease that is spreading to so many companies rather far, and fast. Perhaps the good news is that it should result in more competition, I think. Tall growth getting hit with beetles, ideally leaving behind fertile ground for something else?

reaperducer3• 4 years ago

this rant reminds me of many similar things I've read about products that were designed by people only had superficial experience with the industry they are trying to disrupt.

I've had similar experience with silly old web development.

I spent a week sitting down with actual users of the web site that I was so proud of and watched them use it. Oh, man did that hurt.

All the "telemetry" in the world will never prepare you for actually watching real people at work and talking to them.

It completely changed the way I build web sites.

The Tesla designers should spend more time in truck cabs, shadowing actual truckers. Based on this Twitter rant, it should be illuminating.

Eji1700• 4 years ago

To me, this point alone continues to highlight that musk is just focusing on looks instead of function-

Tablets. I drove a modern Mercedes truck with tablets and it's pin in the arse. Tablets are simply not designed for use in moving vehicles. You need a physical button, so you can reach for it even without taking your eyes off the road and feel it. (10)

This is a KNOWN issue. There's very very little upside to any sort of touchscreen in a moving vehicle. And while in normal cars they move units because features over functionality is acceptable, trucks aren't status symbols first. They do, at the end of the day, have to do the job they're designed for efficiently, and things like this are clearly just "trendy" not practical.

powvans• 4 years ago

Not just efficiently, safely.

crooked-v• 4 years ago

The reason for the touchscreens is simple... compared to all the design and manufacturing needed for a good console of buttons, it's cheap just to slap in an identical tablet unit in every car model.

From the very start it was just Tesla penny-pinching.

BurningFrog2• 4 years ago

It's true that physical buttons are superior, but the upside of the screen is that the UI can be updated by software.

kiratp4• 4 years ago

This is a KNOWN issue. There's very very little upside to any sort of touchscreen in a moving vehicle.

That’s a very confident statement to make without data to back it up.

Strong disagree. I see a huge number of benefits from the touchscreen in my Tesla. Continuous improvements to how the fundamental controls operate. New features that could only have been possible due to the controls not being hardware…

And generally speaking my vehicle seems to save me from human lapses in judgement even when I’m paying perfect attention so I’m not convinced about the argument that they purely increase distraction.

xedeon4• 4 years ago

From: December 23, 2021

“Tesla hiring drivers for reliability, performance and homologation testing of Tesla Semi”

Source: https://driveteslacanada.ca/semi/tesla-hiring-drivers-for-re...

It’s a bit silly to assume they didn’t solicit feedback from real truck drivers. While developing a multi-billion product. But “Musk/Spaceman Bad” right?

v0idzer0• 4 years ago

You know Elon Musk didn’t design this truck, right?

nojvek• 4 years ago

I rented a Jeep today. It has most functions on a touch screen. But above 60mph (I think) the controls all lock so you can’t touch anything.

They probably did it for safety but it feels so dumb. I’m on a highway trying to turn off Bluetooth and then FM but I can’t. All screen functionality locked, no workaround.

JumpCrisscross• 4 years ago

Devil’s advocate: the buyer and operator of the trucks may not care what the driver thinks. Most of these complaints don’t seem to hit at the truck’s profitability for its target market.

kelnos7• 4 years ago

That's a weird position to advocate from. I mean, it's the traditional soul-sucking capitalist position: who cares about the user as long as it makes money?

Gross.

PLenz• 4 years ago

About half of U.S. truckers own thier own rigs, europe has fewer owner-operators. Do you want to start by throwing out half the domestic market?

mastazi• 4 years ago

As a counterpoint, check out the review of the Amazon truck by Rivian by a delivery worker, that was posted here on HN just this week. It turned out being a good experience for the driver. If UX issues are big enough that they can potentially affect productivity, then corp headquarters will care.

Spooky23• 4 years ago

Why is this surprising. After all it’s the company that eliminated steering wheels and door handles.

UI_at_80x242• 4 years ago

I've driven truck for 4+ years.

Side mirrors: I have _never_ cleaned the mirrors by hand. That happens when I'm refueling with a squeegee on a long pole that they have at truck-stops. I will tell you that those mirrors will vibrate like hell and be difficult to see clearly out of. That far away from the chassis and with only one point of contact will make it vibrate a lot.

Gatehouses: that is a very valid point, but most guardhouses (I mostly just have experience with Ford/Chrysler/GM) make you get out of the truck and go open up the trailer. You don't even roll-down the window to talk to them.

Weigh-Scales (aka Chicken-Coops) where Highway weight inspection happens: Most just use a speaker on a pole at window height, but other places (like USA/CAN border crossing) you have to pass paperwork back & forth to agent, so this would be difficult.

Entry/Egress: these are valid points but the need to enter/exit from the passenger side has only happened to me once. My biggest use of the passenger seat: That's where I kept my cooler for food/beverages.

And that brings me to my list of observations that make this tractor seem like a non-starter (from things i noticed watching the '10 hour drive' video):

(1) The monitor on the right-side of the driver. Some of the time it was a map/GPS, but most of the time it was displaying text that the driver leaned over/turned his head to read. This might have been dispatch notes, or vehicle diagnostics or something else. HELL NO, not even once would I ever drive something that required that much attention away from the road.

(2) Food/Beverage options. Most drivers that I ever saw used a LARGE 24oz-36oz insulated mugs for coffee. A lot would pour an entire pot of coffee into their mug! So most trucks had 'over-sized' cup holders. The 'nicer' trucks I drove also had shelves with guard rails (it always reminded me of boat-storage) in areas that I could put food that I could eat while driving. I didn't see that same kind of space. The less-nice trucks would force me to use the passenger seat. This truck did have lots of area, but there was nothing to prevent things from sliding around.

(3) Load/Log paperwork: Usually kept in a clip-board (mandated by law if carrying hazmat material to be stored in drivers-side door pocket). Once again door placement and lack of shelves play an issue here. I often kept mine on the passenger seat. This material is rarely touched while driving, but there is a considerable amount of paperwork that needs to be done each time the truck stops. Related: Notepads. About half the companies that I worked for required that I log the vehicle mileage (and time) when crossing state lines. There might be adequate space for this. Notes were needed to be written down quite frequently.

(3) Range to refuel ratio. I drove a 600 mile radius centered around Detroit. I would goto Quebec, Missouri, Tennessee, and all points in between. Each time I needed to 'fill' the fuel tanks would take ~30 minutes. That 30-minutes would give me ~1800 miles of range (VERY rough estimate, I never got close to empty). I would often get fuel at either designated locations (like at the company lot)or when I was OTR I would do it before I stopped for the night (as needed). Even if Tesla built out a super-charger like network for the trucks I can't imagine having enough time to make 3x more stops, with each stop taking MUCH longer.

DoesntMatter224• 4 years ago

This isn't for OTR though, as most truck routes are shorter in nature. They aren't gonna touch long haul for a while. Though they do apparently charge up very quickly.

I agree there are a lot of negatives though. Not a truck driver but the ipad light seems like it would be very annoying and then reading instructions while driving, especially where you have to turn your head away from the road is really bad.

Ultimately I think people are too worried about the interior. It's not gonna be that hard to move seats over if needed.

smilekzs• 4 years ago

On mirror vibration, my personal experience is that a lot of it is contributed by the diesel engine, at least on the freeway / at idle. It is really obvious when you're cranking it. The proximity of their mounting point to the engine bay doesn't help either. IMHO the axle-mounted motors are gonna suffer less from this particular cause, but maybe the bad roads will make it worse regardless.

A related point is "E-mirrors". The regulation is not there yet in the U.S., but apparently they are in Europe [1]. I think they have the potential to be _more_ safe than traditional ones, despite the glare issue at night --- for example taking advantage of the low-light HDR capabilities. Also, their FoV don't shift around as the driver's head does; this may be both a pro and a con.

[1] https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/12/20191214-mirrorcam....

Also, had they made the driver's seat slideable left-to-right (e.g. with 3 locking positions) it would solve the problem of not being able to hand something over the left window ;)

bsjaux628• 4 years ago

Somebody resurrect Steve Jobs

He would have hidden the ignition keyhole below the steering wheel because of the ugly aesthetics

kennywinker• 4 years ago

It's ok, it lights up for 30s after the door opens. Oh you need to find it but were in the cab for longer than 30s? Just open and close the door again, dum-dum!

Brian_K_White8• 4 years ago

And others emulating them. I would like a Rivian for several reasons, but I can not accept the cab, especially the suv. It's the stupidest least functional least convenient least utility thing imaginable for a utility vehicle.

It's a rolling Apple "one button" joke.

hedgehog• 4 years ago

Your critique makes sense, it reminds me of an electric truck startup called Edison that was started by a former truck driver: https://www.edisonmotors.ca

Basically the exact opposite approach, they started by bolting together mostly commodity parts. It's not pretty in a consumer product sense but for industrial users I get the sense that sleek is not good if it comes at any cost to serviceability, durability, parts commonality, etc. I don't know if that specific company will go anywhere but I like the approach.

reissbaker2• 4 years ago

IDK, when I see threads like this hit high rankings on HN, I don't even have to click through to know that it's a rant — it wouldn't make the front page if it was like "Sweet, this looks good."

Parts of the thread are just nonsensical; for example, I've seen many other threads and business analysts concerned about whether an electric semi-truck is even viable at all. Meanwhile, this thread explains that "All major truck manufacturers offer [sic] electric trucks for years now." Wow, maybe everyone else is wrong and doesn't know anything about truck sales? So I did the bare minimum of research, and... The Mercedes truck he claims has been offered "for years now" is in prototype phase and has never been released; the Volvo class 8 semi was only released in October of this year and has less than half the range of the Tesla; the Scania was also only launched this year and similarly has less than half the range... He even cites "Nikola" as a manufacturer that you can buy a truck from. Nikola! The infamous company that was convicted of securities fraud for faking their electric truck last year! Apparently as of this year they finally managed to deliver a whopping 48 trucks, all of which were promptly recalled for safety issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Corporation

Meanwhile, the snow considerations from the dreaded "angled windscreen." In the thread, the author posts a few pictures of trucks with completely vertical faces. Is that representative of semi trucks? Well, let's go ahead and look at a picture of the Volvo electric class 8 semi that the author was touting... https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/18/first-drive-the-volvo-v...

Uh-oh. It's got way more horizontal faces that the Tesla! And look at those giant mirrors placed 5+ feet in front of the cab... How will the driver wipe them without leaving? Whoops. Or, maybe that's not actually the death sentence for the truck that the author claims?

And then there's the "place to put a mattress." But — the Tesla Semi is what's known in America as a "day cab." Day cabs do not have places for mattresses, and it's generally illegal to sleep in one: https://ratings.freightwaves.com/day-cab-vs-sleeper-cab/. If you're on a route that requires sleeping, you need a sleeper cab. And yup — the Tesla Semi isn't one. But neither is any other day cab.

Rants like these are usually pretty boring TBH: if the product is actually terrible, no one will buy it (and thus the author won't be angry about it). The anger betrays their certainty that the product is actually more attractive than they'd hoped, and than they're claiming.

guax• 4 years ago

Maybe the problem is that he is being critical of something made for Americans being European. American semis would be super stupid here, as well as European trucks might be stupid there, but then again Brazil is as large and less dense than the US and prefer EU style trucks.

PhasmaFelis2• 4 years ago

if the product is actually terrible, no one will buy it (and thus the author won't be angry about it). The anger betrays their certainty that the product is actually more attractive than they'd hoped, and than they're claiming.

"People loudly disagree with X, this proves X right" has never been a convincing argument.

Just for one example, you have to know that the people who buy industrial equipment don't always communicate with the people who will be expected to use that equipment. "My boss is gonna get seduced by this shit and I'm gonna have to deal with it" is a perfectly legitimate concern.

For another, you've read enough tech news to know that people find terrible design annoying even if they don't expect to ever have to use it themselves, especially if it falls within their field of expertise.

steve_adams_86• 4 years ago

This seems to assume the Tesla semi should meet every demand from every kind of trucker, but it’s simply not meant to and no truck is perfect for every trip.

The Tesla semi seems geared towards short haul rather than long. It’s range may sound somewhat long, but I suspect many of these will “return to dock” in the same day, charging in the same warehouse yard each day, and if not, within a small network of warehouses. It’s not meant to go interstate and roam far and wide, charge multiple times, then return to home base.

Well, maybe it is. I just don’t have that impression. If Tesla’s not aware of how impractical that would be then the whole world is crazy. It seems like they do know though and these are intended to operate in relatively small networks where conditions are easier to control and anticipate.

fasthands9• 4 years ago

And if you really want an electric truck, then just get Nikola, that uses Iveco Stralis cab, with the design perfected over half of century

I honestly didnt know they are still shipping. Their numbers are very small (under 50 a quarter) which admittedly makes me feel like the rest of that post has some elements of bias/screed to it. Is it really a logical alternative to buy an EV truck from a bespoke manufacturer known for (criminally proven) fraud?

riffraff• 4 years ago

I thought it had been proven beyond doubt Nikola was a scam, I'm honestly surprised it's still active.

zardo• 4 years ago

I don't know if the whole company was a scam, but they did do 'a' scam, pretending they had a functioning truck when they didn't by rolling it down a hill.

faebi• 4 years ago

I do really wonder what the Euro-style Semi will look like. Will it be complete redesign or will the just replace the cabin?

S0und• 4 years ago

Valid points until he brought up Nikola as an example. A terrible example.

MBCook3• 4 years ago

Why?

He only brought it up for the cab shape. Is their cab problematic as well?

oceliker• 4 years ago

I think the point is that if you want to showcase the alternatives that work, don't pick the company whose founder has been convicted of fraud.

mwint• 4 years ago

Works great as long as your warehouses are all downhill from eachother.

AndrewStephens• 4 years ago

These criticisms all miss the point, assuming that this vehicle was designed for drivers to use to ship actual goods instead of investors to view and throw money at.

I suspect this design is quite good at that.

InTheArena2• 4 years ago

I'm guessing that this author is European. Just a guess because a lot of the criticism seem more applicable to Europe, as most of the complaints are ones that I have heard comparing a European cab over engine truck versus an American conventional truck. Also, there tend to be fewer situations where American drivers need to get out, except at rest stops and weigh stations. Weigh stations (from what I understand, not an expert in this field) are automated in the USA, while rest stops require disembarking.

Cab over versus "Standard" almost always come down to the maximum length of a truck being determined with the cab in Europe, and without in the USA. The vastly shorter trip duty length is also a factor - you get in and out much more frequently in Europe.

jedberg• 4 years ago

The Tesla cars have strange things in them too where it seems like they were designed by people who don't use the cars for work.

The prime example being the lack of coat hangers in the car. People who use their car for work often have to carry dry cleaning or uniforms or other hanging items in the car. They eventually made one you can buy as an add on, but it was strange that it didn't have them.

Also the whole tablets thing (also mentioned here). The cars have the same problem -- it's really hard to do anything by touch and they are always glowing at you. This sucks for everyone but especially people who use their car for work and most likely are trying to make a call or do other things they probably shouldn't be doing while driving.

potatochup2• 4 years ago

What the designers/engineers want (convenience, ease of use) is often sidelined in favor of making money (keeping mfg costs low, dealing with supply chain issues)

moocow01• 4 years ago

They do technically have coat hangers in back but they pop out.

bagels3• 4 years ago

My Model 3 has coat hanger hooks in it. Maybe only older or specific ones lack them?

joenathanone• 4 years ago

My OG 2018 Model 3 and my 2022 X both have coat hangers and I use them daily, so my dress shirt doesn't get wrinkled by my seatbelt.

impulser_• 4 years ago

This seems to be a trend with the latest Telsa future products. They don't seem to be engineered for the actual user, but engineered for marketing to people that wont use them.

The Cybertruck is another example of this.

danans• 4 years ago

They don't seem to be engineered for the actual user, but engineered for marketing to people that wont use them.

The original genius of Tesla's approach is exactly that: maximizing form over function to drive the adoption of electric cars. Maximizing desirability, not utility, has been central. In this way, they are really not so different from other luxury carmakers, who also sacrifice daily utility for form in their cars.

As much as the world needs an electric Ford Taurus or Honda Accord, as Nissan discovered with the Leaf, that approach didn't move people to open their wallets to the same degree.

The Cybertruck is another example of this.

The Cybertruck is an example of applying the above approach to create a caricature of pickup-truck utility that markets well to the Cybertruck's target demographic: faux-survivalist men with lots of disposable income.

An actual utilitarian EV pickup truck would be something smaller like a Ford Maverick or a Toyota Tacoma with a simpler body that works with lots of standard aftermarket parts. I really hope Ford follows the gargantuan expensive F150 Lighting with something smaller and more sensible.

Havoc• 4 years ago

That makes an alarming amount of sense

Melatonic• 4 years ago

Lot of these are good points but I think we would really need to have the guy actually test one of the Tesla trucks to know. The center position thing, for example, does sound shitty. But how do we know that the driver could not simply lean to the side temporarily to reach out the window? That seems like it would not be THAT hard.

The tablets though I agree - it is ridiculous that all Tesla vehicles rely on them so heavily. If that tablet breaks you now have a fairly useless vehicle. Just lazy design at this point and dangerous. What they really need is the Saab night mode design - that was super cool!

quonn5• 4 years ago

If the touchscreen breaks you get a replacement. What if the break pedal or anything else breaks? Same issue.

Additionally the car drives fine without the touchscreen. You can test this by rebooting. Sure, the speedometer is missing so it‘s not exactly great, but it would be enough to get to a safe position.

fooker• 4 years ago

Until this month, the primary mode of criticizing the Tesla Semi was demonstrating infeasibility of electric trucks with misunderstood high school physics.

Now, it is just about driver convenience.

What’s next? Upholstery perhaps?

mlindner• 4 years ago

This reminds me of something like what was written when various other Tesla models came out with tons of people complaining about the design, only for them to go on to sell extremely well.

The vehicle had been in testing with real drivers for years. This is one of the longest development periods for a new Tesla vehicle ever. I’m much more likely to trust that over someone on Twitter who starts his first comment with a clown emoji and makes large parts of the post about Elon. He won’t buy it but plenty others will.

mgrthrow2• 4 years ago

I love how many comments here are, "I have no domain expertise, but these seem like nitpicks".

If a user provides feedback like this, listen. Getting this sort of detail from a user about design decisions is invaluable. They know the ergonomic setup they need, what works and doesn't, and they will have insights a non domain expert simply can't.

beeboop4• 4 years ago

A truck driver who isn't the intended audience for the vehicle and doesn't understand the engineering decisions that went into the product. For every con he lists there's a con to the opposite approach. There isn't clear cut right and wrong here. It's just different use cases.

mgrthrow2• 4 years ago

^ case in point.

thebytefairy• 4 years ago

Who is the intended audience if not a truck driver?

soheil3• 4 years ago

Driver in the middle gives better visibility and command and control of the road. I don't understand the negativity here when the guy presumably a truck driver's tweet 1. ends up on top of hacker news! 2. complains about something he hasn't test driven or experienced.

Look at McLaren F1 driver seating position [1] probably the best car ever made in terms of maneuverability, control and command of the road.

I can't stop wondering if these are coordinated attacks on Musk, let's give the truck a chance before piling on. If other Tesla cars are a guide it will be a game changer.

[1] https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a12019...

mentalpiracy2• 4 years ago

You're here dismissing competent design critiques with the claim that this guy doesn't have the right experiences, therefore opinion = null.

Can you describe your experience driving F1 cars in a mixed-traffic highway environment?

soheil3• 4 years ago

McLaren F1 != F1 cars

I don't have experience with that and neither does he with the Semi, that's the point. He hasn't been in that truck, all these armchair theorizing are just that and kinda bizarre as most car reviewers typically drive the car/truck before giving their opinion as no one would take them seriously otherwise. It's doubly bizarre to see this on top of Hackernews.

kennend3• 4 years ago

Look at McLaren F1 driver seating position [1] probably the best car ever made in terms of maneuverability, control and command of the road.

How often does a F1 driver stop at a mandatory weigh station and need to hand over paperwork for his load?

In case you are unaware, this is actually rather common for truck drivers. All along the highway systems there are mandatory truck stop weigh stations.

I'd say the points he raises are valid, while your comparison to the "f1" is meaningless.

soheil3• 4 years ago

Wait, so stopping at a station and needing to get up and walk over to the window in a very comfortably tall and spacious cabin after sitting possibly for hours is what you're complaining about?

redox99• 4 years ago

Most of these flaws are because Tesla optimized for efficiency/range/tco, and not actual driver comfort. After all, the driver is not the one buying the truck.

They probably figured they wanted that shape for maximum efficiency. However maybe that narrow shape forced them to go with the center driver and all the things the author dislikes.

The logistics of just slapping a couple screens are much simpler than designing and manufacturing an interior with physical buttons.

Also they'll surely plan to drop those mirrors anyway, and use the screens as mirrors (which solves his cleaning complain, cheaper truck, more efficient, etc).

justinhj• 4 years ago

There is really no easier path to high engagement on a tweet than dumping on an Elon venture. Not to discredit his opinion as a truck driver but I’m pretty sure his mind was made up when he saw the brand.

defterGoose2• 4 years ago

There is really no easier path to high engagement on a tweet than dumping on an Elon venture.

Twitter EULA update incoming...

Waterluvian• 4 years ago

I love this thread so much. Every issue he mentions is obvious once pointed out.

This is a great example of something I repeat to myself all the time, particularly because I find myself surrounded by people who don’t: I might be clever and perceptive but I do not know better than the user.

qwertox• 4 years ago

Tablets are simply not designed for use in moving vehicles. You need a physical button, so you can reach for it even without taking your eyes off the road and feel it.

This is generally an issue. I really don't understand how car manufacturers believe that a touchscreen is a good interface in a car where you often need to look at the road and touch the controls in order to feel at which button or knob you are.

I'd rather have high quality resistive touchscreens where the surface can be touched but a good degree of pressure needs to be applied in order to execute a command. Ideally it would have some sort of vibration feedback when I cross a boundary between buttons.

quonn5• 4 years ago

It‘s fine in practice because most things are automatic or only needed when parked and also because the lane keeping and adaptive cruise control aka Autopilot makes a very brief distraction less of a problem in most situations. There are with two exceptions:

- Opening the glove box. This should be possible by pressing the box, it could visually look the same. Instead it requires drilling into a touchscreen menu.

- Music pause/like/seek. The buttons are too small to easily hit them while driving.

Dah00n4• 4 years ago

Moving the air vents around being 3 menus deep seems like a no go but some designer still made it.

Animats• 4 years ago

At the smaller end of electric trucks, here's a driver evaluation of the Rivian delivery truck made for Amazon.[1] This looks like it was designed by time and motion study people. It's optimized for a very specific job. Door control and access are all really easy as long as you have the key fob on you. The door to the package area opens and closes automatically, so when the driver is out of the vehicle, nothing is stealable. There are big screens, and they're showing the next few stops the driver is expected to make. If you take your foot off the accelerator, you come to a stop. Parking brake is automatic.

It's boring, but useful. Tesla did not go that route.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TFz1xqp3us

slimebot80• 4 years ago

"Also, even those small tablets are annoying as hell at night, as even if you turn them black, they still tend to glow."

Tablet screens in cars and trucks is a staggering thing to me. Just reeks of design for the sake of impressing people and getting sales, with poor judgement of usability.

Give me a basic physical dial or switch any day. Don't make me look away from the road. Allow me to use muscle memory and get physical feedback.

What a nightmare path this has gone down.

larodi• 4 years ago

I love this article so much.

diebeforei485• 4 years ago

It needs a narrow "nose" for aero and range, which necessitates a center position seat.

Also the author should be aware that Nikola trucks are vaporware, and the video they showed of their truck was just rolling downill.

etempleton• 4 years ago

This is the problem with Tesla in a nutshell.

The underlying tech is great, they just honestly aren’t great at making vehicles because they insist on throwing out everything about making a vehicle that has been learned over the past century. In a few instance this has led to interesting improvements, but a lot of times it has led to compromised vehicles.

The problem Tesla has is everyone is catching up on the tech and in 5-10 years, with diminished tech advantage, how many people are choosing a Tesla?

quonn5• 4 years ago

10 years is a long time. Many of their choices are to drive costs down and that will give Tesla a competitive advantage.

syngrog66• 4 years ago

I'm no trucker, but I've been doing design analysis for decades. I love this guy's takedown because when I studied the Tesla Semi cab design I also had about 5 of these damning observation points too.

I hoped they had some Expert in charge at Tesla and simply Knew Better. I suspect instead they fell prey to the trap of min-maxing some set of goal metrics. Where they make design choices to hit their target numbers, no matter what it takes, even if it causes other qualities to go to hell.

Shame on Musk.

Because its the sort of thing his time would have been better focused on, than his (also erratic and bumbling) Twitter takeover. As CEO the buck stops with him.

jupp0r• 4 years ago

Sounds like this person has never used a conventional (non cabover) truck and most of his points (minus the tablet) also apply to them?

nemo44x3• 4 years ago

Isn’t the point of the semi that the driver isn’t really necessary? They’re there for compliance until full self driving on interstates doesn’t need them?

Even things like passing paperwork - isn’t the idea that the truck will communicate with another system?

There’s been a lot of “Musk is such an idiot” content recently when his track record clearly shows he’s not. Many mocked the Model S until it was obvious it was a hit.

coding123• 4 years ago

The "hallway to a door" is one of the worst mistakes in living space layouts. They really designed the cab to turn heads rather than be functional.

xyzelement4• 4 years ago

Product manager here (nothing to do with transportation). It seems like the Tweet thread and some comments here are complaining about the design tradeoffs without considering the use case.

From what I see from comments in this thread, these trucks are meant for pretty specific short haul use cases, with consistent routes and perhaps the origin and destination points being owned by the same company as the truck (eg Pepsi, FedEx)

So for example, if this truck carries packages between two FedEx facilities in the NYC area, its chances of encountering a cash-only toll booth are zero, and the company can use electronic records systems that obviate the need to present paperwork (in fact, I bet FedEx does this already anyway.)

Likewise I believe many if not all weigh stations in this area are electronic as well.

So it may seem superficially that Tesla traded off one thing (driver comfort, by forcing them to get out of the cab more often) for another (energy efficiency due to aerodynamic design) but in reality it maybe that in these use cases, the driver won't be getting out of the cab anyway for reasons above, so it's basically "free mileage."

I can make similar guesses as to why some of the other complaints don't actually hurt anything, or maybe are worth it. Eg: let's say there are 3 times a year the driver has to get out of the cab to clean the mirrors. Maybe doing that 3x a year is well worth the increased energy efficiency of every single mile this truck drives in it's life.

tptacek4• 4 years ago

This is the second comment on this thread that I've seen make this argument. It doesn't hold up. Very few of the complaints in this article have anything to do with long-haul drives. The center console seat is a baffling decision, and toll booths --- which happen on short-haul drives! --- are just one of the complaints.

xyzelement4• 4 years ago

I literally talked about the toll booth case in my post. I don't remember the last time I paid cash toll personally, and I used the specific example of the NYC region where they don't exist.

If you are going to operate the truck in a region with tons of cash toll booths then probably this one isn't for you.

beeboop4• 4 years ago

Center seating is a better option for 99.99% of the time spent in the truck. And the vast majority (nearly all) of toll booths have toll tags. It's baffling that people think the 99.99% of a product's use should be dictated by the 30 seconds of paper handling that occurs a few times a day.

RetpolineDrama• 4 years ago

I haven't been through a cash toll booth in the US in 25+ years.

Everything is transponder-based now, especially if you're a commercial truck

runlevel13• 4 years ago

The Teamsters union, who represent a big chunk of the truckers in the US, have lobbied against Tesla's self-driving truck efforts in the past.[^1]

I'll be interested to see if the Teamsters intensify their opposition to Tesla with these now hitting the streets -- even if they're lacking any self-driving abilities.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/business/dealbook/teamste...

InTheArena2• 4 years ago

The unions have had Tesla in this sights for far more reasons for a long time. I’m not sure it will make any difference.

runlevel13• 4 years ago

After further reading, I've learned that the membership is much smaller than I had thought.

The Teamsters Freight division, which includes other roles like dockworkers and mechanics, seems to only have 75,000 members.[^1] In 2019, the US Census Bureau reported there were 3.5M truckers.

So you're probably right.

[1] https://www.teamstersjc42.com/about/trades/ [2]: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/06/america-keeps...

pedalpete• 4 years ago

This is a great example of where the buyer is different from the user, and the design was focused on the buyer.

Tesla focused on reducing operating costs and down time for these trucks with features like stronger, possibly break-proof, windows.

In truck fleets, do the drivers care about these things?

I'm sure some of these issues will be addressed in future versions, but for now, Tesla is focused on selling to fleets that will buy hundreds of trucks for their drivers, not the business where the trucker is the owner.

askvictor• 4 years ago

That very last post with the Colani truck https://twitter.com/TOrynski/status/1600978542891630592 - is too similar to the Simpsons episode where Homer designs a car.

entropicgravity• 4 years ago

Bike shedding gone wild here. Move along.

eternalban• 4 years ago

That Colani truck was pretty wild so i had to google it. Here is the man, Luigi Colani, "The modern Leonardo"*

https://www.colani.com/

This thing is wild: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/LuigiCol...

* but did he blush when he wrote this?

djexjms• 4 years ago

I am a CDL holder who used to do long haul trucking. I haven't had a chance to get behind the wheel of these vehicles yet, but the only criticism that I feel holds weight here is the one about not being able to get the light levels on the tablets to a non-distracting level during night driving. Hopefully that can be addressed with further development. The door being behind the driver's seat is a bit odd, and I anticipate it causing some confusion during traffic stops, but if these vehicles attain any decent market share, people will get used to it.

The Tesla Semi cab from the practical POV of someone who drives trucks

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