Tesla Semi

https://www.tesla.com/semi/

by runesoerensen • 9 years ago

922 554 9 years ago

WTF? It's just a countdown and a place to enter an email. Why would I want to give my email to Tesla without having any idea what this is about?

gpm4• 9 years ago

What it's about isn't exactly secret. Tesla has built an electric semi (truck). This is them unveiling it... in 15 minutes.

Presumably the email is to get a notification...

Edit: Turns out you actually have to enter a email... thankfully it doesn't verify anything.

tyingq7• 9 years ago

Supposedly with a 300 mile range versus ~1400 miles for a typical semi truck.

I'm sure there are niche uses, but it isn't any sort of enormous breakthrough.

Edit: Product page says 300/500 range, so some option I guess: https://www.tesla.com/semi/?new

runesoerensen2• 9 years ago

"It can transform into a robot, fight aliens and make one hell of a latte"

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/930875739397791744

Jtsummers• 9 years ago

They're unveiling a semi(truck). I agree about the sign-up, I'd rather not (and won't). But it's quite clear what is being revealed.

jaggederest• 9 years ago

The form is not checked, you can enter any arbitrary nonsense and it will let you through. I recommend using an @example.com address which won't be routed.

kartD• 9 years ago

I prefer to put elon@tesla.com. Hopefully it'll incentivize them to stop this crap

maxander• 9 years ago

I predict that when the Semi Unveil happens, they’ll only unveil half of the actual vehicle.

daguava5• 9 years ago

The page source seems to include all prices, and links to at least one pdf with details on semi reservation.

daguava5• 9 years ago

"formattedDeposit" : "$1,000", "hamsterDeposit" : "$5,000", "hamsterFullDeposit": "$50,000", "hamsterTotal1" : "$200,000", "hamsterTotal2" : "$250,000",

Is the listed US prices

alexdumitru7• 9 years ago

Weird. This is what I'm getting: "formattedDeposit" : "$1,500", "hamsterDeposit" : "$7,000", "hamsterFullDeposit": "$50,000", "hamsterTotal1" : "$261,000", "hamsterTotal2" : "$326,000",

tyingq7• 9 years ago

Curious what "hamster" means in this context.

larkeith5• 9 years ago

Note that these match up with the Roadster prices also announced today, so they might well simply be artefacts of a duplicated page.

alexdumitru7• 9 years ago

I'm really curious if it comes with big differences compared to modern trucks (except for being all-electric).

I also wonder why they try to push multiple models and niches when they can't even build enough Model 3s as they had expected.

mrep6• 9 years ago

They have always known that the first few months of production were going to be "production hell" for the model 3. While the model 3 production has been worse than they hoped for (elon musk always underestimates timelines so if you know how his companies normally operate, it's normal) but a 3 month delay for a massive hardware engineering project is not end of the world.

alexdumitru7• 9 years ago

It seems like it will require a $5000 deposit (with a $50,000 "full deposit") and the truck will cost between $200,000 and $250,000, according to the page source.

jordache3• 9 years ago

wow.. why would that be in the JS? synchronized onscreen graphics?

jordache3• 9 years ago

down vote without a strong opinion why it would be in the source code? weak

pythonaut_16• 9 years ago

Well shoot, if they can deliver full self driving capabilities, can I just buy one of these to live in instead of a house, cruising the freeways endlessly?

psergeant3• 9 years ago

Huh, that’s pretty interesting. I guess if it’s smooth enough, doesn’t even need to spend all night cruising, can just get you to a campsite an hour out of town.

bluthru• 9 years ago

Top of the line Winnebagos are $500k. You might be on to something: https://winnebagoind.com/products/class-a-diesel/2017/grand-...

Someone pair up with a tiny house company or a prefab design/build architecture company and start making some housing trailers for Tesla Semis.

Diederich2• 9 years ago

A quick Google indicates that the inside dimensions of a standard truck trailer is 28 x 8, or 224 ft^2.

cruising the freeways endlessly

How about "cruising on sunlight."

ryaneager• 9 years ago

Those prices match up with the new Roadster that was also announced, so they may not be the Semi.

tsomctl2• 9 years ago

Unlike their cars, if they want to be successful they will need to release factory service manuals and sell parts to repair them. It's not going to be acceptable to send it to some far away service center to be repaired, at least for small outfits that heavily use all their equipment. When a critical piece of equipment is down, the mechanic is going to be working through the night hacking it together, possibly waiting on parts that are being overnighted. Diesel mechanics tend to be ridiculously intelligent and very resourceful.

ktta2• 9 years ago

I mean, with Semi's isn't a big thing going to be about self driving, therefore not needing such experienced drivers?

I'm not saying have a kid on there, but what angle do they have if not for self-driving? Poor range, unrepairability?

giarc• 9 years ago

The comment you are replying to is about repair, not about the drivers. Did you maybe mean to reply to a different comment?

RoboTeddy3• 9 years ago

Diesel mechanics tend to be ridiculously intelligent and very resourceful

Cooool! Can we have a story about this?

tsomctl2• 9 years ago

Don't have any particularly good story. They are just really good at understanding and fixing anything mechanical using the most basic of tools. I actually think that the type of brain that makes you good at programming is similar to being a good mechanic.

tty73• 9 years ago

I have read the same comment (slightly modified) on HN since telsa announced their first vehicle.

Tell me, have you actually worked on a new model truck? Because the days of a service manual and a backyard shed are over

greenyoda• 9 years ago

I don't think they're talking about a backyard shed. More like a distribution business with a fleet of 50 trucks, a well-equipped garage and a full-time mechanic.

King-Aaron• 9 years ago

Because the days of a service manual and a backyard shed are over

They really aren't, as much as the manufacturers like to tell you they are.

Sure, the sheer amount of sensors/vacuum systems/electronics/etc make it look too complex for the layman, but as long as you've got an OBD scanner and a laptop, you can make quick work of most things. The biggest issue is manufacturers currently having an obsession with inverse torx head bolts in unusual and frustrating places (i.e. pull the top end off the engine using only a 10mm, 14mm and 17mm, and then juuuust at the last step, there's a sudden 6.5mm inverse torx bit needed to be fetched from Narnia.). But you can always get parts.

Electric cars will be just the same - in fact, I think they'll be easier for the home electrician to work on. Most of the modular manufacturer-specific parts can be interchanged for other components (inverters, batteries, etc). It won't look as neat and clean, but considering that electric cars are fundamentally less complex than internal combustion engines I don't think people will struggle.

nwmcsween5• 9 years ago

I have a journeyman in mechanics, tractor/trailers are much easier to work on than most personal vehicles due to the amount of room there is. They are also quite easy to repair, very similar to a computer as in hard drive is bad, replace it, injectors bad, replace it.

gaustin5• 9 years ago

Tesla will be selling into a very complicated industry. You think enterprise sales of software are hard, just wait.

Tesla say their system includes all the functions necessary. I haven't seen a list but I doubt it. Even if they do it will literally take enterprise integration projects to hook them up to the largely bespoke systems used by existing trucking company backends.

(E.g. 20 year old ADP systems)

cjsuk• 9 years ago

Indeed. It’s like that for all vehicles. The SM for my car is a windows app. I need a laptop and a cable to debug the car if anything goes wrong.

PhasmaFelis5• 9 years ago

It's not going to be acceptable to send it to some far away service center to be repaired, at least for small outfits that heavily use all their equipment.

Hmmm. Doesn't Tesla usually offer a loaner car while a Tesla is in for repairs? If they did the same thing with semis, would shipping companies accept it?

termie2• 9 years ago

If the math works there — could now or over time — then once L5 hits imagine the possibilities. L5 trucks towing broken L5 trucks with a third taking the cargo. I missed the video, but I’d bet huge that needed tech is probably prototyped already, at least in the elonoggin. Well done Elon!

taneq4• 9 years ago

So sort of a subscription model for trucks? You buy (or more likely rent) "a truck" and Tesla supplies you with "a truck" but it's not necessarily always the same truck?

greglindahl10• 9 years ago

You might be pleased to learn that much of the sparsely-populated area of the US does its Tesla car repairs -- including minor stuff like replacing the engine -- with teams of 2 workers and a van -- and 4 hours for that engine swap.

Now imagine how that might work out for the truck industry.

kamaal3• 9 years ago

This is true only if your product is designed to tinker. Or you generally have to replace plug and play parts.

When desktops came along many people wondered if they could be serviced as easily as TVs. The answer turns out to be simple, they don't have to be. If the repair + component costs turn out to be in the same ball park as replacing the plug and play part, you don't have to service individual PCBs. To give you a example, recently I had a broken Dell Monitor. Got it fixed in 20 mins at a local service store. Apparently the technician simply removed the whole PCB and put a new one in its place. And there were only 3-4 such PCBs.

You only need to be as intelligent as the abstract interface allows you to be.

andrewksl• 9 years ago

The site is showing in Chinese for me. It really irks me when sites don't respect the browser's language. Surely this is a solved problem?

psergeant3• 9 years ago

This is 1,000% an unsolved problem, with an extra helping of fuck you Google and Facebook.

I browser without cookies and generally from Asian VPNs, and as far as I can tell, nobody is remotely respecting the browser’s language. Google have also recently started showing English language search results in Thailand with archaic Thai-language dates, which is also insane.

Geojim• 9 years ago

Looks like a re-run of Knight Rider...

tim--3• 9 years ago

The poor guys are self-DDoS'ing themselves.

They keep requesting https://livestream.tesla.com/haveReservationsStarted every 30 seconds. Most of the requests are failing with 502 HTTP errors.

acchow• 9 years ago

Why are they hosting their own streaming service instead of using YouTube?

azhenley3• 9 years ago

Elon plans to go to Mars, surely he can handle video streaming...

un_montagnard3• 9 years ago

They are not. They are using ustream. But they are ddosing the server hosting the page with the player.

jakebasile• 9 years ago

I really wish they'd just use Twitch. Twitch can handle tens of thousands of viewers on esports matches. I'm sure it can handle some thousands of nerds wanting to look at trucks.

nodesocket4• 9 years ago

Looks like they using Akamai.

a23-56-119-116.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com

Fail, using an old version of NGINX 1.10.2 and no HTTP/2 support enabled.

interfixus3• 9 years ago

More people need to start hosting their own streaming service instead of automatically relying on Google Almighty to take care of life for them.

Kudos to Tesla for trying.

un_montagnard3• 9 years ago

It's actually every 10 seconds.

flukus• 9 years ago

self-DDoS'ing themselves.

Should have let the Department of Redundancy Department do their capacity planning.

kenhwang• 9 years ago

Getting a 502 response. Also Tesla should probably update nginx since v1.10.2 is at EOL with an outstanding CVE.

mds• 9 years ago

Really happy not to be the Tesla DevOps group right now.

nodesocket4• 9 years ago

I bet they outsource these live event streams.

coding123• 9 years ago

Since I can't see anything except a spinning wheel on the button and "Event in progress" here are my questions for others: What is the payload (tongue) capacity? What is the tow (pull) capacity? Is there any mention of being able to pull a fifth wheel?

nodesocket4• 9 years ago

Yikes. NGINX throwing 502 errors. No bueno from a company with a market cap of 52 billion. Plus they seem to be running over 10 minutes late.

Xcelerate• 9 years ago

The video is livestreaming for me, but it's stuck on "Standby for the Tesla semi unveil". Anyone else seeing this?

stochastic_monk• 9 years ago

I've had this techno on repeat for about fifteen minutes now.

RoboTeddy3• 9 years ago

Yep same here. Don't reload -- I tried opening the stream in a second window, and couldn't get in at all (stuck on submitting the "watch event" form)

austenallred4• 9 years ago

I love Tesla, but there’s something poetic about even the livestream being delayed by 10 minutes

mandeepj2• 9 years ago

Their events are always delayed

jwilliams2• 9 years ago

Er. So is this actually on? I'm getting hold music that feels straight out of Knight Rider.

MoBattah3• 9 years ago

I'm liking the music. Can anyone identify it? Would love to use this during work.

jwilliams2• 9 years ago

Shazam giving me zip, sadly.

namuol2• 9 years ago

Shazam/Soundhound aren't giving me anything.

Given it's short loop I'd guess it's either a royalty-free piece they purchased or it was commissioned.

That said, if you like the style, give Ronald Jenkees a try:

https://ronaldjenkees.bandcamp.com/

skwog• 9 years ago

Shazam says: Set Free (Kris McTwain Remix Edit) by The Project 7

gridscomputing• 9 years ago

still playing the "standby" slide at 2012 PST. i assume this to mean the event was scheduled to begin at 1900 PST?

gpm4• 9 years ago

I believe it was meant to launch at 2000 PST, that's when it was counting down to.

mrep6• 9 years ago

youtube stream for those getting errors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFN4BfbqlbA

cameronhowe2• 9 years ago

azhenley3• 9 years ago

Clicking the play button just takes me to the (down) Tesla page.

cameronhowe2• 9 years ago

yeah, my bad, I guess it's not a shortcut

hateful• 9 years ago

This is only a semi-reveal. Maybe the stream will work after they do the complete reveal?

jordache3• 9 years ago

How are they doing this without triggering a browser prompt to allow my location to be sent by browser? The result for me was very accurate. Why wouldn't all the ecommerce sites use this method? I keep denying their prompts to access my location otherwise.

https://location.teslamotors.com/geoip/v1.0.3/city/

alexdumitru7• 9 years ago

They probably use an IP database, like MaxMind.

tim--3• 9 years ago

That just looks like Maxmind's GeoIP. https://dev.maxmind.com/geoip/geoip2/whats-new-in-geoip2/

voltagex_• 9 years ago

Your ISP sold your location.

riantogo• 9 years ago

Probably the same technology all the singles in your area are using to target you.

chrismorgan• 9 years ago

This live stream consistently causes the first crash I’ve noticed in ages: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1418059. Yes, when you use Firefox Nightly as your browser it does just occasionally cause trouble. But mostly it’s just awesome.

asimpletune• 9 years ago

Can we talk about that music?

chickenbane• 9 years ago

Can't get anything from tesla.com, but this livestream works!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvJV1AqRd8g

Gustomaximus• 9 years ago

Asking for an email to watch? For something like this? Are they planning to spam people after to try and sell product? Some marketing manager is being a bit old company on this one.

alexdumitru7• 9 years ago

It's got a 500 mile range, which is pretty decent, compared to the rumored 300 mile range.

tyingq7• 9 years ago

It shows both on the product page. 300 standard, the 500 is an extra cost option: https://www.tesla.com/semi/?new

runesoerensen2• 9 years ago

Product page up now: https://www.tesla.com/semi/?new

sdenton4• 9 years ago

Nice! Fun to imagine this with bog standard random shipping container in the back... Or will everything have to switch to shiny silver tesla shipping containers?

untilHellbanned• 9 years ago

Jack of all trades master of none. What is Musk doing? This guy is all over the map.

bobsil13• 9 years ago

Methodically going after sources of anthropogenic climate change

soheil• 9 years ago

working youtube stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFN4BfbqlbA

austenallred4• 9 years ago

Can someone with more experience in the field talk about the pricing of the Tesla semi relative to other semis? Musk said it was cheaper to operate from day one, is that not amortizing purchase price into each mile? Seems a little too good to be true.

mrep6• 9 years ago

I assume they are amortizing costs since a quick google search says new price semi's cost 80,000-150,000

pfranz• 9 years ago

On the linked page, at the very bottom, it says, "and a two-year payback period." So it sounds like the amortization is facilitated via a loan.

karlshea• 9 years ago

Plus surprise supercar announcement?

un_montagnard3• 9 years ago

New car as well!

jjcm• 9 years ago

Details for those that couldn't watch the live stream:

-500 mile range on a full charge. On empty 30 min of charging will get you 400 miles.

-Lower drag coefficient than a bugatti veyron

-They're claiming cost per mile is less than rail for shipping goods.

-2019 availability

-Lane centering + other features (jack knife prevention)

-1,000,000 mile guarantee

----------------

Also they surprised announced a new roadster:

-New plaid mode (beyond ludicrous) 0-60 in 1.9s.

-620 mile range

namuol2• 9 years ago

They're claiming cost per mile is less than rail for shipping goods.

Note: This only applies to "Convoy mode" where 3 or more vehicles draft off each other.

gpm4• 9 years ago

Also not clear to me if they assumed they could get away with only 1 driver in that mode...

05• 9 years ago

As long as the taxpayers keep subsidizing trucks destroying the roads proportionally to fourth power of mass per axle..

MoBattah3• 9 years ago

That was incredible. Excited to see TSLA early tomorrow morning.

azhenley3• 9 years ago

Also, the 500 mile range is with a full 80,000 pound load.

fpgaminer• 9 years ago

FYI the 500 mile range figure is fully loaded (cargo is at maximum load for U.S. roads). They claim "80% of routes are less than 250 miles", so they say that the truck can take most routes back and forth without needing to charge.

The million miles is on the drive train. I don't remember if they mentioned the battery warranty?

IIRC the cost per mile in a convoy that they quoted was $0.83/mile.

Same enhanced auto driving features of current Teslas. Automatic breaking, etc.

EDIT1: The dash is the wheel and two screens (left and right). Supposedly their software has all the integrations drivers need, so they don't need to slap other 3rd party devices into their vehicle (which they describe as a problem for existing trucks. I have no clue one way or the other).

It has a frunk.

gaustin5• 9 years ago

Most semi-trucks are filled with proprietary technologies. Then more such is layered on by fleets, leasing companies, maintenance providers, etc.

Little of it natively works together. The contractual limitations are nuts.

From what I recall technology often isn't shared between automobile and truck manufacturing companies owned by the same parent because of these restrictions.

csours2• 9 years ago

"80% of routes are less than 250 miles"

But over 80% of total miles are put on in the other 20% of routes

pitaj• 9 years ago

Some other specs:

Acceleration 0-60 mph with 80k lbs - 20 sec

Speed up a 5% Grade - 65 mph

Powertrain - 4 Independent Motors on Rear Axles

Energy Consumption - Less than 2 kWh / mile

Daneel_2• 9 years ago

The roadster also has 10,000Nm of torque and a top speed over 400km/h. In the old measure that's 7,375 ft-lbs and 250mph+.

Those numbers are simply insane, for anyone who doesn't know torque figures. A Dodge Challenger Hellcat makes 650 ft-lbs for comparison.

oppositelock• 9 years ago

That's 10,000 Nm (aka 7375 ft-lbs) wheel torque. The hellcat has 650 ft-lbs engine torque. First gear in the hellcat is 4.71:1 and rear axle ratio of 2.62:1, which gives you 8021 ft-lb at the wheel at torque peak. In second gear, we have 5347.

So, a small car with more wheel torque than a Hellcat in 2nd gear, nice!

Edit: Used incorrect ratios, updated.

jsmthrowaway• 9 years ago

It might do better than 300mph if they can build tires capable of holding the car down in one piece. I’m not kidding, I do genuinely suspect that’s a possibility given the figures they announced. I’d wager that’s part of why they wouldn’t commit, because they aren’t sure what it can do yet and have been working with Michelin or Pirelli to find out.

It’s hard to comprehend 1.9 pushing a battery pack. If that thing doesn’t break 300, it’ll flirt.

frik• 9 years ago

The semi is quite interesting. The presentation was a bit underwhelming, Elon was very nervous and the stuttering wasn't something I expected. To me this shows how great Steve Jobs was salesman, when he did his presentations.

colordrops5• 9 years ago

I guess you haven't seen many of his presentations. The stuttering in this one was on the low end in comparison.

bobsil13• 9 years ago

That was good Elon. At the last Model 3 unveil he was much more nervous.

njarboe6• 9 years ago

Elon Musk decided that spending days or a week preparing for a presentation is not the best use of his time. At least that much time is generally what it takes to pull off a really smooth presentation. I heard that he does not script them and just does them off the top of his head.

Tim Urban has a great essay about different levels of prep people do for talks [1] which he wrote when preparing to give a Ted talk. Musk's talks are on the "Wing it" side of prep while a Ted talk is suppose to be on the "Follow an exact script - Happy-Birthday-Level memorized" level.

[1] https://waitbutwhy.com/2016/03/doing-a-ted-talk-the-full-sto...

gsnedders• 9 years ago

-Lower drag coefficient than a bugatti veyron

This isn't anywhere near as impressive as one might think: a Veyron has a pretty bad drag coefficient because of the amount of cooling intakes it has (turns out cooling an engine producing over 1000PS takes a lot of air).

jabretti3• 9 years ago

Yep, my car has a lower drag coefficient than a Veyron, and yours probably does too.

A Chevy Tahoe has a lower drag coefficient than a Veyron. One of those super-boxy 80s Volvos has a lower drag coefficient than a Veyron.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient

_Codemonkeyism10• 9 years ago

That is the reason they chose that comparison. a.) everyone thinks a Veyron must have a good coefficient b.) they know it's not that good. Basics of modern marketing (also "low fat high sugar", "low carb high fat", "organic sugar", ...)

Yizahi• 9 years ago

I'm pretty sure that Musk and most of the potential buyers are aware about this. But consider this - if Roadster has exact same road performance as Veyron (accel, max speed, cornering speed etc.) while being more streamlined that makes technically superior to Veyron. Imagine a concrete brick on wheels that has the same road performance as Veyron - its engine and aux controls should be insane and deserve an award on its own, but as a complete car it would less impressive as a Veyron despite being the same on the road.

semi-extrinsic• 9 years ago

Lower drag coefficient than a bugatti veyron

I LOLed at this one. Supercars want lots of downforce so they don't constantly go off the road and you die. They're not built for low Cd. A Toyota Prius has 35% lower drag coefficient than a Bugatti Veyron.

It's like when the "superfruit" people go "look at this amazing berry, it has 20% more vitamin C than a lemon!" Well yeah, an orange has 70% more vitamin than a lemon. Marketing wank for the uninformed masses.

On empty 30 min of charging will get you 400 miles.

I did a double take here. To do that we're talking ~ 1000 kWh drawn from the grid in 30 min; that's pulling 2 megawatts of power. None of the existing Supercharger installations come close to providing enough power for even one truck.

It also means that on the distribution grid, a charging station for 8 semis will need a dedicated 20 MVA 33/11 kV distribution transformer, plus 4 11kV/480V transformers. Unless you manage to keep those charging slots filled 90% of the time, that's going to be bloody expensive electricity.

colordrops5• 9 years ago

There will likely be huge fields of solar cells scattered across the nation with countless trucks pouring through. There is no way this is not the future, even if Tesla doesn't pull it off. But who else is even trying?

loufe• 9 years ago

Great breakdown!

JoshTriplett• 9 years ago

It also means that on the distribution grid, a charging station for 8 semis will need a dedicated 20 MVA 33/11 kV distribution transformer, plus 4 11kV/480V transformers.

Or a pile of batteries.

njarboe6• 9 years ago

Musk stated in the presentation that they plan to use solar with on-site battery storage at these "Mega-Charger" stations and will guarantee a max electricity cost $0.07/kWh. No grid needed (my phrase, not his). Not sure if it is doable, but that is the plan.

macarthy12• 9 years ago

A perfect place to stick a load of solar panels? The roof of a warehouse.

csours2• 9 years ago

Lower drag coefficient than a bugatti veyron

Also, the coefficient is then multiplied by the frontal area of the vehicle. A semi has a helluva frontal area.

IndrekR• 9 years ago

Sounds like a "powerwall for a small town"

shrewduser• 9 years ago

model S, 3, X, then the D, now a semi... what's elon trying to tell us.

jabretti3• 9 years ago

I assume by 2050 it will all spell out some obscene message which Elon Musk will read to us as he departs for Mars.

amiramir• 9 years ago

S3X DRIVE could be a cheeky pun along the lines of The Boring Company.

tyingq7• 9 years ago

The live stream is moving on to the roadster now.

Says 1/4 mile is 8.9 seconds, which is just nuts for a car you can buy off the lot.

I'm guessing insurance might be high on that car.

perilunar• 9 years ago

https://www.tesla.com/roadster/

tyingq7• 9 years ago

Ahh. $250k, so insurance isn't really an issue if you can buy it in the first place.

petre3• 9 years ago

Wow, it looks slick.

gnarcoregrizz• 9 years ago

1.9s 0-60. 250mph+ top speed. holy*!

mrep6• 9 years ago

someone has already updated the fastest cars with the roadster blowing out the competition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_car...

Edit: someone else removed it

grondilu• 9 years ago

I've just checked. 0-60 in 1.9s is only 0.3s slower than F1 record, and it seems to be below the typical one.

"Formula One race cars have been recorded to reach 0-60 as fast as 1.6 seconds, however the typical range for modern day F1 cars is between 2.1 to 2.7 seconds."

https://www.zeroto60times.com/formula-one-f1-0-60-times/

aeleos• 9 years ago

Wow not just a semi truck but a new super car? I always wondered what they could do if there weren't trying to make the cars affordable to most of the population, I guess this is it.

620 mile range is disgustingly insane, I wonder how they were able to pull it off. I can't imagine cramming more batteries would help weight and speed, maybe it uses some kind of different battery technology to get that kind of power storage.

petre3• 9 years ago

Tesla isn't really that affordable. It's more like the iPhone of electric cars: they're trying to make the best electric car everybody wants. Renault/Nissan are the ones trying to make it affordable. I read the Zoe is a best seller, although in rather too low volumes compared to ICE cars.

bkeroack2• 9 years ago

When you have hundreds of thousands of customers with paid reservations waiting for Model 3s, why on Earth would you spend resources launching another product line? It’s madness.

notatoad• 9 years ago

Because the "make a new product" teams and the "fix the battery manufacturing process" teams are mostly different teams. Engineers are not entirely fungible.

bkeroack2• 9 years ago

It's not just battery manufacturing, it's everything manufacturing. It's clear that Musk (therefore Tesla) is addicted to the rush of developing and releasing new products but are loathe to dedicate time towards the boring, iterative process of manufacturing optimization. To the point of farming out as much manufacturing as possible to third parties (Panasonic, China).

It's clear they want to be a design shop in the vein of an Apple, as opposed to an industrial manufacturer like GM/Ford/GE. I would not be surprised to see them offshore manufacturing more and more in the future (see their recent China deal).

mastax• 9 years ago

Because you can use the deposits to keep the lights on until you start getting model 3s out the door.

nwmcsween5• 9 years ago

Ok as a mechanic a few million questions:

* What happens when a wheel seal goes? Do I have to remove all that ridiculous plastic on #2,3 axels??

* What happens when a tire blows? Is it going to destroy all that plastic and take out a few more tires in the process?

* Why all the glass? I've spend entire days replacing windshields for a 12 or so truck shop which generally come in two (drivers and passengers), the Tesla semi would require a crane and expensive replacements.

* Why is there no bumper or frame attachment points? Bumpers save the truck from damage, no one wants to buy $xxxxx front end, lights, etc when a deer in the bushes jumps into the middle of the road.

Honestly from my point of view it seems Tesla tried to apply personal EV to a semi. Did they do any research from tractor shops or mechanics? There is a HUGE reason tractor/trailers are easy to service.

RoboTeddy3• 9 years ago

Re: Glass: Elon Musk demonstrated that the glass is armored (it's unclear, but that might mean it just won't break under normal trucking conditions)

greglindahl10• 9 years ago

He showed a video of it in action. Note that Tesla is already pretty good at glass due to their huge glass windshield-roofs on the X and 3, and the solar roof.

colordrops5• 9 years ago

Because likely in a few years (less than 5 maybe?) these things will be driving themselves and if they get non-operational damage they'll just drive themselves to the nearest tesla maintenance center to get repaired.

nwmcsween5• 9 years ago

Then it's dead out of the gate, almost every trucking company in existence does in house repairs due to cost.

njarboe6• 9 years ago

He states that they have spent a lot of time talking to truckers and truck companies. I would guess they believe that with an electric drive train repairs and maintenance will be an order of magnitude lower (not sure how that works for tires and wheels). Body damage should also be much lower with automatic breaking and other features of enhanced autopilot. As Musk said, broken glass is a big cost for trucking as you can drive with a broken windshield. They think they have a super glass that is "nuclear blast" proof.

einrealist• 9 years ago

I wonder about accidents. Will the driver be trapped, because the glass cannot be broken?

arghwhat6• 9 years ago

Tires, wheels, suspension, bearings, steering, brakes and drive axles (one from each electric motor to its wheel) will be the same as a regular truck, maintenance-wise.

The maintenance reduction basically only related to the motor itself. And, supposedly the "nuclear blast proof" windshield. A collision with a deer probably be much, much more expensive compared to a truck with a safari grill or plow mounted for safety.

tlrobinson2• 9 years ago

"nuclear blast" proof

That seems like a meaningless claim without size and distance from the blast.

PinguTS6• 9 years ago

Over the last centuries there were a number of truck and bus manufacturers who tried the single/middle seat design. It was never a seller for any of those.

If you take someone with you, you don't want to sit him/her to sit behind you. You want them to sit next to you. If you are on the road in the city, you have often colleagues with you, like in a moving company and alike. Such trucks are used in construction work where things damage easily because someone else crashes in your truck. No assistant in your truck will prevent that.

Honestly, it seems they may have talked to some friends or their delivery companies, but not with companies from the industry.

_Codemonkeyism10• 9 years ago

What does "nuclear blast" mean?

5m to the explosion?

10km to the explosion?

What warhead? 10kt, 10Mt?

isaiahg• 9 years ago

You should probably watch the actual reveal, it's already on YouTube. The glass was already addressed and he gave it a specific focus. Even claiming it can withstand an atomic blast.

PinguTS6• 9 years ago

The iPhoneX has the strongest glass.

… but actually breaks easier than the iPhone 8 glass.

IshKebab• 9 years ago

Yeah that is just classic "what sounds really impressive but actually isn't that bad" marketing nonsense.

It might be able to withstand an atomic glass but it's still going to crack if a big enough stone his it at 70mph.

noselasd• 9 years ago

A few other people have also referenced the "reveal". Does anyone know what is meant by this, and have a link ?

tbabb2• 9 years ago

"Well, it's a fraction of the cost to operate, but if a tire blows, the mechanic will have to detach a piece of plastic. So I think we'll pass."

masklinn• 9 years ago

It's way beyond that.

1. it makes changing a tire more complicated, and time is money, the longer it takes to change a blown tire the higher the penalties

2. when a semi tire goes, it goes hard, as GP noted with this arrangement the cowling will probably shatter, requiring a replacement (not just a replacement tire) and the pieces taking out other tire. If the cowling does not break, it will funnel bits of tire straight into the next tires, blowing all of them.

andrepd3• 9 years ago

Why do you say it is a fraction of the cost to operate? Because the advert says so? I'll wait for concerns like the parent's to be weighed in before reaching any conclusion.

mikestew2• 9 years ago

Don’t worry, when the tire blows it’ll take that fiddly piece of plastic with it. Which I think is at least part of parent’s point.

pdeuchler• 9 years ago

This dismissive attitude of a domain expert's opinion while taking Musk's/Tesla's word on revolutionary claims that they don't even have a working prototype of yet is a perfect example of why the court of public opinion is slowly starting to turn on Silicon Valley

dayaz36• 9 years ago

Watch the actual reveal before commenting. The glass was addressed.

rijoja• 9 years ago

A lot of this is probably in order to get a 0.36 Cd Drag coefficient! Also having a lot of glass probably increases the view which in turn increases the security!

l4yao• 9 years ago

I feel like the drag coefficient bit was sort of gimmicky since the projection of the front face is so large on a semi. At 0.36, it's somewhere between a Nissan Cube and Ford Transit

scoot2• 9 years ago

If you check out the reveal, you'll see that it doesn't have those ridiculous covers, nor does it have near zero clearance between the cab and trailer which would prevent articulation, and nor does it have near zero ground clearance.

Dylan168075• 9 years ago

If you check out the reveal, you'll see that it doesn't have those rediculous covers

https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/tesla-s... ? I'm not sure what you mean. Looks about the same as the linked page to me.

nor does it have near zero clearance between the cab and trailer which would prevent articulation, and nor does it have near zero ground clearance.

https://i.imgur.com/cECtzId.png https://i.imgur.com/EPIchQz.png

Ground clearance seems smaller because of how huge it is.

andygates• 9 years ago

Why wouldn't the side skirt simply hinge up to allow access?

averagewall3• 9 years ago

This alleged photo shows no cover over the wheels. You can probably just not use it if you don't like it.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a12771645/t...

teekert• 9 years ago

I get the concern, I know a truck driver, damage occurs very often and is difficult to prevent even by the best of drivers. But perhaps bumpers are less necessary when the thing is full of sensors and stops the truck before something is hit? Doesn't prevent damage from thirds of course.

lloeki• 9 years ago

Trucks already exist[0][1] that would seem to go contra your last two points (full-width windshield, no bumper/frame, flush lights).

[0] http://www.renault-trucks.co.uk/media/image/nouvelles-gammes...

[1] http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/wp-content/uploads/2011/0...

jameshart• 9 years ago

Right - I was going to ask if I took an American truck mechanic to Europe and stood him by a highway, he’d look at all the trucks and say ‘those will never work, the windshields are too big and the engine’s inaccessible and all those fairing panels look fragile.’

letlambda• 9 years ago

* What happens when a wheel seal goes? Do I have to remove all that ridiculous plastic on #2,3 axels??

Seeing as you still need to do a pre-trip inspection, I assume they swing out of the way pretty easily.

foobarbecue2• 9 years ago

Well, the glass is "thermonuclear explosionproof," whatever that's supposed to mean. They are claiming it will never need replacing. Musk did dwell on that for quite a while in his talk.

maxerickson• 9 years ago

Indestructible materials solve the problems with the wheel shrouds too.

Tepix3• 9 years ago

When the last nuke went off in North Korea, my car window didn't break either. Amazing!

SigmundA9• 9 years ago

The windshield is a lot more like a modern Class A RV windshield. You don't necessarily need a crane to replace, just a couple guys.

Having some tough glass though as they promoted would be really nice on an RV, I'm jealous.

jasonwatkinspdx• 9 years ago

all that ridiculous plastic

I'd bet those fairings are needed to get the low cD, and that without them the economics are nearly as competitive. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on having designed for blow outs as that seems rather basic.

lafar65023• 9 years ago

Why do you worry - only Tesla authorized service will be allowed to repair the truck

thecompilr• 9 years ago

What I would really like to see is a smaller version of the truck, and a collaboration with U-Haul. Now that has market value.

colek42• 9 years ago

He mentions that the mega chargers will all be solar powered. I don't know how this will be possible as the user base grows. The amount of energy needed for even a small fleet will be huge.

petre3• 9 years ago

So a charging station will need what, 10 hectares of land for the solar? Either that or 10 kW of grid interactive solar for marketing purposes, while absorbing the bulk of the electricity from the grid.

mkempe• 9 years ago

In the year to 2017-Aug, total US solar generation was 72.1 TWh, amounting to 1.80% of total US electricity (predicted to reach 5% by 2022; in 2016 US solar capacity almost doubled from the year before).

Tesla semi consumption: < 2 kWh/mi

One charge: 500 miles => < 1 MWh

There are about 2 million semi trucks in the US (tractor trailers). Assume that each semi fully charges once a day, 300 days a year.

The conversion of all of the country's semis to Tesla vehicles powered with solar generation requires under 600 TWh a year, eight times current US solar level; still only 15% of current total US electricity generation. Likely within 10 years, or sooner.

rand77763• 9 years ago

There’s a lot of surface area on top of a trailer, just saying.

dchuk3• 9 years ago

I'm a product manager at a telematics company. I've talked to a lot of folks in the long haul trucking space, from drivers to back office folks to service managers. I'll be surprised if this truck catches on. The trucking industry has a huge urge to do everything themselves, all the big guys have full service garages in their many yards across the country. This truck seems essentially unserviceable by anyone other than Tesla, which will be a showstopper for many of the big guys at least for a while.

I will say that I'm impressed by their charging numbers if they can hit them though. Fuel is a huge concern for carriers, they reroute to save a cent on the gallon constantly. Getting enough super chargers in place will be key for these things.

Also, as a side thought: they could have had a much more impactful reveal by having one of the big carrier's trailers hitched to that thing. Makes me wonder how much they even went and talked to their potential customers, especially drivers, who are very...particular...about their machines.

ehnto2• 9 years ago

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lobbying battle that ensues after these types of vehicles become available. With transport and shipping being such large targets in regards to emissions, banning or phasing out fossil fuels will make electric semis inevitable.

I guess the question then would be how quickly the current manufacturers can supply an offering. Manufacturers with existing business relationships and greater domain knowledge would be in a much better market position than Tesla. Being first may not help them here.

Tesla has to design and develop an entire truck, existing manufacturers just have to develop the drivetrain and plonk it in established product lines with the kinks of semi transport already ironed out.

hobofan3• 9 years ago

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lobbying battle that ensues after these types of vehicles become available. With transport and shipping being such large targets in regards to emissions, banning or phasing out fossil fuels will make electric semis inevitable.

In Europe maybe, but the USA are still their main market, and the way things are going right now, regulations probably won't develop in their favor in the important timeframe.

kemiller• 9 years ago

If those TCO numbers pan out they won’t have much choice. They’ll be undercut by the competition.

loceng2• 9 years ago

I suspect the numbers will improve as well.

Niksko• 9 years ago

This sort of response REEKS of near sightedness.

"The big guys won't go for it. Therefore, it won't succeed". That's a recipe for somebody who isn't a "big guy" to start their business literally this instant, and outcompete the "big guys" in five years because they were able to throw off the shackles of tradition and learn from the past as well as embracing current technology.

hobofan3• 9 years ago

The harsh truth is that most times it _does_ work out for the "big guys".

5 years is a lot of time for the "big guy"-compliant suppliers like Daimler to catch up (I can't personally evaluate if there is even a lot of catching up to do, as Tesla tries to present). Especially in low-margin industries like transportation that are also highly dependent on overall market strength, the odds are stacked very much in favor of big players that are able to position themselves for slow and stable growth. Close-to-worst scenario for the big guys is that a new player gains a significant market share and they have to purchase them for a big premium.

It also seems that you underestimate the willingness to embrace new technologies in the trucking industry, which they have ingrained to survive in a low-margin industry. They won't like it not because it is any kind of innovation, but because they would be giving away significant control. The big guys are so resilient and successful because they try to have a hold of the supply-chain as much as possible, to be more independent of outside forces, which is exactly the same game Tesla (and Apple, etc.) are playing with their manufacturing partners.

pwinnski2• 9 years ago

I am generally not a Tesla fan, but I'm impressed by this truck. I think you're focusing on the wrong end of things here. In fact, your later objection answers your first!

The drivers and service managers can be as skeptical as they want to be. The company owners can replace those drivers or service managers.

The big dogs care about the bottom line, and their employees have felt the pinch all along. This will be no different.

grecy4• 9 years ago

And how much servicing do you think it needs?

New tires and rarely new brakes and you're good to go.

I'm sure any "servicing yard" will be able to handle that.

dchuk3• 9 years ago

Yep, big rigs are just a couple of tires and brakes. No glass, shocks, computer systems, hitches, cabling for trailers, lights, body pieces, or anything else.

Just brakes and tires.

austenallred4• 9 years ago

The new Tesla Roadster "Founders Edition" costs $250k, paid up-front, and only 1,000 are made.

In other words Tesla just put $250 million in the bank by rubbing rich peoples' egos.

taneq4• 9 years ago

And making a really really nice limited-edition car, apparently.

austenallred4• 9 years ago

Of course, but they effectively get three years at zero interest to make good on that.

jonknee• 9 years ago

Fun fact: $250m will cover ~16 days of their current free cash flow losses.

tzm• 9 years ago

I want to buy a Tesla Semi and convert it to a land yacht.

bra-ket• 9 years ago

yuck, what a soulless piece of crap

abtinf• 9 years ago

Is a center seating position common for truck drivers?

It looks amazing, but it is different enough from my normal consumer driving experience as to make the entire product a non-starter if it were in a consumer car. I've developed decades of training and muscle memory sitting on the left side of the car.

I wonder if there will be a measurable impact on accident rates.

paulsutter• 9 years ago

Mclaren is a consumer car with a center seat:

https://www.google.com/search?q=mclaren+center+seat&tbm=isch

wmeredith• 9 years ago

It’s hardly mainstream. It’s a $1,000,000+ hypercar.

LeonM• 9 years ago

It was, actually, because the McLaren F1 you are referring to was produced until 1998. Also those cars are changing hands for well over 10 million USD nowadays, so I'd hardly call is a 'consumer' car.

tribaal• 9 years ago

I doubt accident rates will be impacted that much.

When you fly to a country that drives on the other side of the road from you and then rent a car, you are sitting on the other side of the car entirely.

It takes a couple of hours at worse to get used to it for a manual transmission, automatics are even easier.

XorNot• 9 years ago

I live in Australia. It took about 2 days to get totally comfortable driving on the opposite side when I visited the US. I don't think it'll matter that much.

jabretti3• 9 years ago

I've been back and forth from Australia to the US enough times that it takes about five minutes for my brain to adjust to driving on the other side of the road each time.

That said, my brain takes the cue from looking at what side the wheel is on (I just keep the side with myself on it close to the centre line). If I got off the plane and into a McLaren F1 then I'd probably have real problems (thankfully Avis doesn't carry twenty-year-old supercars).

metaphor• 9 years ago

I've developed decades of training and muscle memory sitting on the left side of the car.

Have you considered what portion of said training and muscle memory was directly attributable to compensating for cabin asymmetry?

ksec• 9 years ago

I wonder how does Frozen Container works with this? I would be a huge drain to battery.

beagleman• 9 years ago

Are those normally run off of the prime mover's engine? I'd never even thought about that.

josephagoss• 9 years ago

Every refrigerated container I've seen has its own cooling unit and does not use the trucks power.

usaphp• 9 years ago

They are using external diesel power generators, they are not running from the truck engine anyway.

tlrobinson2• 9 years ago

How does the mileage and recharge time compare to a traditional semi-truck? And are there enough charging stations along trucking routes?

joelthelion• 9 years ago

I suppose it would be quite easy to equip a few of the most important routes.

Also I suspect that this will also be used for the last, urban part of the trip.

Voyage_wanderer4• 9 years ago

In US a solo driver can drive 11 hours before mandatory 10 hours break. Which, depending on route and traffic, puts you in 500-600 miles/day. Rules around the world are about the same. There are not enough simple parking spots around. So taking up on charging station problem is a bigger task than the truck itself.

ZeroGravitas2• 9 years ago

In the presentation they suggest they are targetting customers who can get from A-B in one charge, and then charge while they are unloading/reloading the truck. Those customers actually save time on fueling.

loceng2• 9 years ago

Otherwise he states 400 miles charge in 30 minutes. So with assumed breaks every 5-6 hours for food and bathroom, and with apparently legal requirements for drivers to take breaks - it seems like it won't be an issue (so long as there are charging stations at enough locations).

Shivetya• 9 years ago

mileage, how well will it be in hilly country? the run down 75 from Cincinnati, that whole route to Atlanta or nearby is one nightmare of hills till you get past Knoxville.

are their range calculations going to hold up, most truckers don't have the luxury of running across the plains or the equivalent all day. throw in they run in all weather so how much will those range numbers drop?

micheljansen• 9 years ago

"The quickest acceleration—from zero to 60 mph in 20 seconds, fully loaded."

sound of cargo falling over :P

But serious question: how important is acceleration for trucks?

Voyage_wanderer4• 9 years ago

Merging into freeways is always a problem and a hazard to everyone involved. Quick acceleration makes highway safer. More pulling power also means less slow trucks on grades and less jams around them.

It is of course irrelevant for the bright future where are no human drivers.

cm21873• 9 years ago

Also doesn't that torque helps when going uphill?

rqs• 9 years ago

Wow, I hope they put a description like this onto their web page.

Because when I saw that word "acceleration", the first thing up in my head was a buffed bald man doing a car race with that truck. LOL.

Oh, I watch too many movies.

JabavuAdams4• 9 years ago

For quantifying discrete objects, you should use "fewer", not "less". "Less" is used for aggregates, continuous media, and numeric values. So, "fewer people", but "less water".

bagacrap• 9 years ago

May have been a joke but 20 seconds is still really slow. I had a van that took 13 seconds on paper (although I never actually verified that) and the contents we never in danger of being tossed around.

vincnetas• 9 years ago

EU will like these huge windshields, because of the pedestrian safety.

"Contrary to passenger cars, there are currently no direct vision requirements for trucks. Direct vision – what you can see with your own eyes – has a number of benefits compared to indirect vision (mirrors and camera’s). To measure direct vision the Commission should use a standardised methodology."

Very nice summary on truck blindspots : https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publicat...

Diederich2• 9 years ago

Huge windshields are good for pedestrian safety, enhanced autopilot with every truck sold is fantastic for pedestrian safety.

alkonaut• 9 years ago

What's the axle pressure compared to traditional semis?

Semis are going to be less and less popular in the EU when more countries add fees for distance driven which is proportional to wear, which is twice for a semi compared to a non-semi.

wayanon• 9 years ago

I wonder if the strong glass is the same material used in the solar roof tiles.

anonu• 9 years ago

The fact that diesel semis have a 1000+ mile range was conspicuously left out of the unveil. I had to do a bit of research.

I suppose it's all marketing in the end and Elon cherry picked the facts that would suit him.

Yes, I understand 80% of trips are under 250 miles. But is an almost 50% reduction in range that easily shrugged off?

Tepix3• 9 years ago

Since you're legally required to take a 30 minute break every couple of hours, does it really matter?

pasta• 9 years ago

Even if they sell 5 of them it will be a success I think.

Tesla will gather a lot of (electric) truck data no one has. And at the time countries decide to ban polluting trucks Tesla will release an upgraded model.

SigmundA9• 9 years ago

Anyone else find it odd they don't talk about the battery?

500 miles of range at 2kwh a mile is a 1000kwh battery which is 10 model S batteries.

Model S battery weighs 1,200 lbs lets assume they somehow improved on that by 20-30% so this is a 10,000 lb battery. Not sure how much the motors weigh, the Tesla motor and inverter are about 350lbs so lets say another 1000lbs.

A Diesel engine, transmission and fuel for 500 miles is about 5,000 lbs.

So I guess they made up 6,000 lbs in lightwieght materials? Or does it have less carry capacity since the trucks can't weigh more than 80k total?

Then there is the cost of the battery. Tesla is currently saying thier cost are below $190/kwh. At $180 that battery is $180,000 dollars cost! They must be counting on the Gigafactory getting it down to $100 kwh, still $100k cost just for the battery. The battery cost is as much as a new Semi's price.

The Megacharger is 400 miles in 30 minutes, that would be a 1.6 megawatt charger. They have to be built out across the country.

I am pretty impressed, I honestly didn't think they would do a megawatt battery. 500 miles is what you need minimum for "long haul" or a solid days driving even though most diesel semis have 1000 mile+ ranges.

Just not sure how the economics work out, but I hope it does.

bognition• 9 years ago

I think your price estimate for the battery isn't too far off. If you scoll down on the page they estimate annual fuel savings to be $200,000. They then mention a two year payback period. This seems to imply a sticker price of around $400K.

SigmundA9• 9 years ago

I am trying to figure out how they get 2 year payback.

"On a 100-mile route, the Tesla Semi will average $1.26 per mile when operating costs are factored in to $1.51 for diesel trucks."

That 25 cents a mile savings, average trucker does 45,000 miles a year, 100,000 on the top end for long haul. Even at 100k a year that's an 8 year payback right?

victor106• 9 years ago

Not sure how realistic the whole Tesla releases are. They are definitely inspirational. One thing we know for sure is they have a great prototyping/photoshop/After effects team

gok3• 9 years ago

A Diesel engine, transmission and fuel for 500 miles is about 5,000 lbs.

You often end up carrying more fuel than you need so you can buy it in cheaper places. And then there’s the whole art of timing your fuel stops around the weigh stations...

still $100k cost just for the battery. The battery cost is as much as a new Semi's price.

That’s not that crazy if they can actually deliver on the operating cost savings they’re claiming. Big if though.

SigmundA9• 9 years ago

At 7 lbs a gallon for diesel most semis can carry 200 gallons so add an extra 1000lbs if you like, the Tesla still has to make up 5000 lbs while having 1/3rd the range.

Timing stops for megachargers will be a whole lot more difficult than truck stops until they are as ubiquitous. If you have to use a plain old supercharger your talking 8-10 hours for a charge, don't even bother with a normal plug of any kind.

_ea1k• 9 years ago

I have been wanting to know this as well. With both the roadster and the truck, the battery seems to be quite a bit more advanced than what we have seen previously. The car is smaller than a model 3 but has a battery that is more than twice the capacity of what they said was possible before.

It will be fascinating to find out what is actually behind these vehicles. On a pure specs basis, it sounds incredible.

ZeroGravitas2• 9 years ago

If you take the Model S and scale it up then people have said the battery is half the cost of the car, and therefore the battery alone is roughly the cost of a normal car. I don't think it would be suprising if the same is true for the semi.

There's at least one rural delivery man who bought a Tesla Model S and paid for it by using the mileage payments he gets for his job. So as long as your route fits, the same kind of high up front cost being amortised over time applies. The more miles you drive the better the economics works due to lower fuel/maintenance costs.

Non-Tesla companies are making pretty much the same pitch in regards to battery busses, again targetting fleet managers who have the spreadsheets in place already to plan and manage this kind of expenditure.

SigmundA9• 9 years ago

Urban buses are very different and a more obvious target. Stop and go slower avg speed regular short routes with a home base to charge.

Much smaller batteries and taking advantage of regenerative braking.

It is an obvious use case for batteries right now.

stcredzero• 9 years ago

There's at least one rural delivery man who bought a Tesla Model S and paid for it by using the mileage payments he gets for his job.

There's a specific tax deduction for commercial vehicles that cost more than $50000.

mtgx2• 9 years ago

I'm guessing a battery pack of 2019 will weigh about 60-70% what the old battery pack of Model S weighted per kWh.

See for instance Roadster's 200 kWh, which I'm pretty sure is not twice as heavy as that of the Model S.

throwahey• 9 years ago

Diesel trucks with sleepers are not cheap, brand new they cost upwards of $150,000. If Tesla's price point is $250-300k I think it would be fair.

pgt• 9 years ago

What about the Supercharger network? Fewer highways make it logistically easier to plan for well-positioned charging stations so they can produce smaller batteries that have to be charged more frequently. And the Semi could always hook on a battery trailer for longer hauls.

cptskippy2• 9 years ago

I doubt this semi is intended for long-haul trucking. The range however is very tempting for short-haul operations like JIT hubs.

s0rce2• 9 years ago

How do you deliver 1.6 MW, is the plan the same voltage as the supercharger (480V) or some HV system?

013a• 9 years ago

Your estimations are probably very far off.

The Roadster was announced with a 200kwh battery, which is twice the capacity of the best Model S. Yet the Roadster is much smaller, and the 0-60/quarter mile times indicate that it is much lighter.

So, we can conclude that Tesla is accounting for some real technology optimization in their batteries over the next 4 years, which I'm sure the Semi will see as well.

SigmundA9• 9 years ago

The Roadster is probably all battery, no reason to think its not 2000 lbs of battery and 1000-1500 lbs of car.

Is there anything to indicate lithium batteries will somehow get 60-70% lighter in 2 years?

MistahKoala• 9 years ago

So we've had the Model 'S', 'E' (or '3') and 'X', and now the 'Semi'?

yohann305• 9 years ago

they should have used this line: "it's a beauty and a beast"

davzie• 9 years ago

If you're not in marketing you need to be!

kodis2• 9 years ago

It would sure play better with the corporate types than what they went with: "BAMF Performance".

awjr• 9 years ago

I've been making the point that fuel duty and car taxes (if your country has them) need to be removed and road pricing brought in.

Price per litre of diesel in the USA is about $0.75 vs $1.64 in the UK. Given that Tesla stated that the truck would pay for itself within 2 years ($200,000 in diesel savings), we're talking 11 months in the UK.

The implication is that eHGVs will radically reduce the tax revenue of countries that have focused on fuel duty creating a significant problem for road maintenance.

Dynamic road pricing, based not only on time of day, but also vehicle type, is probably the only way forward.

dsfyu404ed2• 9 years ago

Dynamic road pricing, based not only on time of day, but also vehicle type, is probably the only way forward.

Wouldn't want to let poor people with inflexible work hours go un-screwed... /s

I don't know why everyone sees reduced tax revenue as a problems. Less money to spend means more critical evaluation of how it gets spent.

berbec• 9 years ago

Like what happened after every American "big tax cut". Reduction in income instantly exposed massive waste in government, and the tax cuts were found to be deficit-neutral! /s

philjohn• 9 years ago

One downside to the centre driving position - what about if you want to take a companion with you on the road?

bryanlarsen• 9 years ago

There's a jump seat behind and to the right of the driver.

Large agricultural vehicles have always had a central driving position.

mncolinlee• 9 years ago

It's bizarre that the Semi has way less attention than the Roadster on HN.

The Roadster is a $250k car for people with money to burn. It doesn't seem to drastically change the equation from a Rimac Concept One with six-year newer battery and motor tech and savings from volume and automation. The Roadster is the shiny thing that sells less sexy vehicles.

The Semi has the potential to change an entire industry if executed right. They don't need to be perfect if the cost savings are real and reliability is high. We'll see if they get practical details correct and whether production models arrive within 2-3 years of target-- a common Tesla worry. But I feel this has more margin potential than the Model 3 at this stage in Tesla's development.

rvshchwl3• 9 years ago

It may possibly be because the Roadster was a surprise reveal, while the Semi was expected to arrive this year anyways.

Regardless, I am really looking forward to seeing the Semi's on Highways, although I believe that a main roadblock to it will be the lack of Tesla charging stations across the country. Semi trucks drive throughout the US on all major highways, and they have to coordinate their routes according to where the Weighing stations are in each state. Having to add super-charging stations to their routes will certainly complicate their routes, so it should be a bigger priority for Tesla to address those first.

EADGBE3• 9 years ago

Sex(y) sells.

Sohcahtoa82• 9 years ago

$250k

Correction: It is a $200k car. The $250k is for a "Founder's Series" which is really just one of the first 1,000 cars out of the factory.

Still a car for people with money to burn, though. I was hoping to be able to get one, but the price is slightly over my budget. I might be settling with a Nissan GT-R.

vanderZwan• 9 years ago

I was wondering if the best early markets to target might be in the European Union. First of all, at least on the PR-side of things we seem to be a bit more into sustainability; more companies might want to get these just to get a good public reputation. But aside from that it might make more economic sense too.

So I tried a rough estimation.

TL;DR: I made a very, very rough estimation which suggests that if Tesla's original cost per mile number is accurate, it could be very successful in a handful of European countries, for companies that do not transport cargo internationally.

Making worst-case assumptions about the average costs at each step, switching to the Tesla Semi would be a net increase in costs of 19¢/mile on average.

Making slightly-more-lenient assumptions about electricity costs, switching would give a 28¢/mile savings on average (compared to their claimed 25¢/mile in the USA).

The best-case scenario for Tesla would be a trucking company in Norway that only delivers inside Norway, because then that number improves to somewhere between 59¢/mile to 80¢/mile.

Also, they need to give more context for the $200k+ fuel savings claim, because it seems a bit suspicious: they claim a savings of 25¢/mile, but fuel cost is only a fraction of that. So you would need to travel like a million miles before you reach that amount, which would take over two to three decades at the average distance covered by a truck each year.

I'm not an economist, and a lot of ridiculous assumptions were made in these calculation, so don't take it too seriously.

Still reading? Down the rabbit hole we go...

In the reveal video Tesla claims a cost of $1.51/mile for diesel vs $1.26/mile for their semi[0], so a 25¢/mile savings (I'm going to ignore the convoy savings for now). This assumes fuel costs of $2.50/gallon and 7¢/kwH.

Oh, BTW: the estimated average miles per year is 45k in the US[1]. So at 25¢/mile that would be $11.25k saved per truck in the US on average - which presumably includes costs saved on repairs. Again: where does that $200k+ fuel savings number come from?

Now, in Europe gas prices are (on average) much higher than the USA. What would be the price per mile here? Well, to estimate that that we must also look at how the price of electricity compares between Europe and the USA.

For diesel, I looked at globalpetrolprices.com[1][2]. It does not provide an average for all of the EU (nor prices per US state, for that matter). Truckers will often plan in such a way that they fill up in the countries on their route with lower gas prices, so let's err on the side of caution and make it $5/mile. To compare the relative difference I'll take the current average US price, which is $2.83/mile. So gas is 1.8x more expensive at the moment, on average.

Now, we do not know the MPG Tesla assumed for diesel trucks. Lets go with the worst-case comparison again, which would be 8 MPG. Increasing $2.83/gallon to $5.00/gallon, that mean be an increase of 27.12¢/mile. Making the improbably assumption that all other costs relevant to this calculation are equal, we can just add that to Tesla's number of $1.51/mile, and end up with $1.78/mile for diesel in Europe.

For electricity I looked up the official governmental statistics provided for electricity USA and European Union[3][4]. Taking the provided national averages, and converting the Euro to US dollars at the current rate of 1.00 to 1.18, I get these numbers:

EU: 15.51¢/kWh domestic, 8.01¢/kWh industrial (second half 2016)

USA: 12.90¢/kWh residential, 9.89¢/kWh transportation, 7.23¢/kWh industrial (August 2016 - more recent statistics exist but I figure we should compare the same time period)

Note that these numbers make Tesla's claim seem a bit fishy, since they assumed 7¢/kWh for the USA, which you don't even get with industrial scale costs.

Europe does not distinguish transportation from other sectors yet, but the worst-case scenario would be using their domestic prices compared to the USA's transportation prices. That would be about 1.5x more expensive, still not as much as diesel.

(I added industrial electricity prices because perhaps a large transportation company with a fleet of electric vehicles and their own charging stations would use so much electricity that they would need industrial energy contracts. At that point the comparison obviously gets a whole lot rosier)

We don't know how much of a factor fuel price is in the price per mile calculation of the Tesla Semi. If we take their claim of lower maintenance costs at face value, it should be a bigger portion of the total. Now, the even-worse-that-worst case scenario would be assuming it's all of it, since that would give the biggest adjustment, and that the relative difference is equal to the domestic price difference:

$1.26/mile * (15.51¢/kWh / 9.89¢/kWh) = $1.97/mile, for a net increase of 19¢/mile.

If we take the relative difference between domestic prices as our starting point, it becomes better again:

$1.26/mile * (15.51¢/kWh / 12.90¢/kWh) = $1.51/mile, for a net savings of 28¢/mile.

So, using the worst possible adjustment for diesel and electricity prices, worst MPG, and worse-than-worse price-per-mile adjustment for Tesla, the economic benefits of switching to these will still be bigger in Europe.

Now lets look at the country with (probably) the best numbers for Tesla: Norway. Despite being an oil-exporting country, it has the highest price per gallon (except Iceland), and lower price per kWh than the USA:

Diesel: $6.99/gallon, electricity: 11.30¢/kWh domestic, 6.28¢/kWh industrial

Keeping everything else worst-case-scenario for Tesla as before:

(6.99-2.83 $/gallon) / 8 MPG = 0.52¢/mile, for a total of $2.03/mile for diesel

$1.26 * 11.30 / 9.89 = $1.44/mile for Tesla, or 59¢/mile saved.

If we assume domestic-to-domestic, the ratio becomes 11.30/12.90. The worst case scenario here would be assuming equal percentage of price per mile as diesel:

$2.5/gallon / 8 MPG = 31.25¢/mile, or 31.25/1.51 = 20.7% of total price per mile

(($1.26 * 79.3) + ($1.26 * 20.7) * 11.30 / 12.90) / 100 = $1.23/mile, for a total of 80¢/mile saved.

... for a total of 80¢/mile saved.

Of course, a proper cost calculation would be much more complicated, since it would depend on the routes your transport company takes, where you are located, how big the company is, etc.

With so many countries I can only assume it requires more red tape to get their semi through all the required tests in Europe (even with EU-wide standards simplifying things there), but it would probably worth it for Tesla to target specific countries with higher fuel costs and lower electricity costs.

Tangent: in the process of looking this up, I discovered that fueleconomy.gov does not have a section for semi-trucks[5]. I wonder if that was blocked by the automotive industry on purpose.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nONx_dgr55I&t=14m

[1] https://hdstruckdrivinginstitute.com/semi-trucks-numbers/

[1] http://www.globalpetrolprices.com/diesel_prices/North-Americ...

[2] http://www.globalpetrolprices.com/diesel_prices/Europe/

[3] https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...

[4] http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/..., http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/product?code=nrg_pc_204&languag..., http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/product?code=nrg_pc_205&languag...

[5] http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/search.shtml?words=semi

kraig911• 9 years ago

It's cute. No trucking company is going to add it to it's fleet though... after thinking about SigmundA's research and coming from a family of Truckers - I can't see how this will help/work. It's just a cool thing to see and boost company image. Trucker's don't want to drive a lone. Trucker's usually have people along for a ride or a sleeper cab. Sitting in the middle would suck. I sincerely doubt this thing can haul loads of more than 12.5tons.

flurdy• 9 years ago

:/ The centre driving location, not sure if that is a terrible idea for pedestrian and bicycle safety. Or the opposite as closer to the other side. Guess time will tell if a lot gets squashed against fences like bikers often do in London.

seveneightn9ne• 9 years ago

Tesla's navigation system will definitely let you know if there's something close to your side.

slouch• 9 years ago

The driver is probably 8 feet closer to the front of the vehicle, though.

rvshchwl3• 9 years ago

Also don't like that there aren't passenger seats, or at least they don't show in the interior pictures.

JeffL• 9 years ago

On a YouTube stream we were watching, I saw at least one fold down passenger seat in the truck cabin. Not sure how comfortable it would be, though.

rhinoceraptor• 9 years ago

Cyclists are on the opposite side of the driver in traditional seating, I would think this makes it safer for cyclists.

theWatcher37• 9 years ago

London already has a terrible problem with extremely narrow (and often jagged) roads.

As an American many of the streets were hell to navigate, and I understood why tiny cars are valued there

orsenthil• 9 years ago

I like Elon Musk's presentation. It is nothing like Steve Jobs or any other CEO presentation. It seems like an enthusiast telling other the features and how cool it is. Also enjoyed the part that he told the audience to break the barriers and come and see it.

maelito• 9 years ago

Is the next release a bus ?

rvshchwl3• 9 years ago

Doubt it. Busses are most often used by local governments than by businesses, and most cities are less likely to spend that much money on a more expensive form of transportation.

kerbalspacepro• 9 years ago

Microbuses

Voyage_wanderer4• 9 years ago

There is also issue of highway funds. Tax on fuel goes into roads maintanence. There is no current mechanism in US to tax electric vehicles. I wonder if Tesla culculated non-yet-existing taxes into operational casts.

gallerdude• 9 years ago

I'll be really curious about how this pans out. It seems like they vastly over-engineered it, but maybe I'm wrong.

Robotbeat2• 9 years ago

They need a huge battery to make long-haul feasible (both from a range standpoint and a charging speed standpoint) and to make the battery last longer even on short trips.

And you have less resistive losses if you use multiple motors (or, say, one large motor) than one motor (or a small motor) for the same load due to: Power loss from resistance = I^2*R (resistance increases, but current decreases proportionally for the same load, so your power loss reduces).

So if you're going for efficiency and long-haul battery life, you already need a big battery and lots of electric motor power. You can leverage that for really strong regenerative braking, which translates to extremely long brake life and further efficiency (as well as being quieter). This also means you can go faster up AND down hills (speed down hills for trucks is limited by brake heating... if you're doing regenerative braking, very little heat is generated).

Also, by using multiple model 3 motors, they can get access to economies of scale that a small-run truck usually can't, which means you can afford to spend more on putting more motor in there.

So you end up with a truck that can do 0-60 in 20s with full load due mostly to other engineering considerations.

balozi• 9 years ago

Probably not a popular opinion but this Tesla business feels like what I imagine being cult or Ponzi scheme would feel like.

bonestamp22• 9 years ago

I hope Tesla builds the next gen USPS delivery trucks to replace all of those loud little trucks that sound like a space shuttle launch between each mailbox.

0xfeba3• 9 years ago

Aw, you don't like the LLV[1]?

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV

A hybrid would well-suit the replacement of these. Something like the Chevy Volt that relies more on electricity for heavy stop/start type driving. It would also address your concerns. The engine could just run when needed to charge, and not be a constant oscillation through the RPM range through the neighborhood.

ttepasse• 9 years ago

Germany's biggest postal service, the Deutsche Post (ex state monopolist) searched for an electric delivery van and couldn't find one. So they bought a startup and developed their own:

* https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-24/even-germ...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter

splouk• 9 years ago

Does anyone with some technical knowledge of batteries and solar panels know whether it would be possible to put solar panels on top of the trailer and charge the battery that way?

rainbowmverse• 9 years ago

Here's a discussion I found on the subject: https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/4h7gd1/solar_panels_...

smoyer• 9 years ago

This would have been a great product to announce on April Fools day - then continuing to announce it as real afterwards.

Tesla Semi

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