Canada's immigration website crashes on election night

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-s-immigration-website-crashes-on-election-night-1.3152231?hootPostID=14d10ea891a36bd74ea02d19ec7cf954

by iamdeedubs • 10 years ago

577 518 10 years ago

ctvnews.ca

retreatguru5• 10 years ago

I wonder how this might affect startups in Canada? Will it be easier to hire American programmers? Will more investors come up north?

adomanico• 10 years ago

Software professionals might get to Canada, see the smaller paycheck and run back home!

chongli2• 10 years ago

The pay may be a lot less here but real estate is way cheaper. For the price of a 1 bedroom apartment in San Francisco you could buy a 4 bedroom house in Waterloo. We have a nice startup scene here that's really expected to take off when the LRT opens up in 2018.

rpeden3• 10 years ago

As it stands now, I doubt that many American programmers would be willing to take the pay cut they'd have to accept if they came to work here.

I like it here, and I'm happy with what I make, but when you factor in the exchange rate, a typical US developer would take a huge salary haircut working here; probably 40-50%.

retreatguru5• 10 years ago

That is true. But there are also a number of perks such as universal health care. So maybe just a certain type of developer would move - one motivated by values rather than money. Perhaps similar to the draft dodgers who came up in the late 60s.

PhasmaFelis• 10 years ago

Sure, but (depending on the area, at least) you can live very comfortably on 50% of what a west-coast US developer makes. Techies tend to forget that our pay rates are way above the national average.

Aldo_MX• 10 years ago

Maybe not Americans, but Mexicans, since the visa requirements are expected to be lifted[1].

[1] http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2016/06/28/canada-lift-visa-req...

dba7dba• 10 years ago

How long does it take for paper work to be completed? 1-2 years? And than what? Trump will almost certainly mess up enough (which Dem have warned about) to be out of office after just 1 term. And will they go through the paper work to return to US?

retreatguru5• 10 years ago

I think highly skilled and paid jobs are expedited. Above CAD $85k I believe.

Scoundreller6• 10 years ago

If you can get your paperwork for a TN-1 visa, you just show up at the border with your application and it's approved on-the-spot. It's not a permanent visa, but it gives you time.

mattkrause8• 10 years ago

I got my postdoc work permit in about...ten minutes?

You show up at the border with your passport, the fee, and few documents from your employer. They do some stuff on the computer and then awkwardly disappear for a few minutes. You pay the cashier and the guard reappears with your completed work permit. Done.

As far as I know, there's also not much paperwork for returning to the US, though you're supposed to inventory all of the stuff you bring back with you.

baby5• 10 years ago

People are not going to move. After every single election in France people say they will move to the US, or to germany, or to... I've never seen anyone moved anywhere.

ps: parts of my family moved out of Hong Kong when it became Chinese again. But that was quite a different situation.

mfjordvald• 10 years ago

That's kind of funny. French people is the single biggest source of expats (if we ignore domestic helpers) in Hong Kong. Seems to be very common for French people to emigrate.

tomp• 10 years ago

Seems unlikely that migrating from France to Hong Kong would be motivated by political reasons (unless you want less democracy). I'm guessing financial motivations dominate.

rtpg2• 10 years ago

I remember seeing some article about French brain drain being extremely systematic now, especially among the better schools. Get free schooling in France, then leave.

Obviously I'm in a bit of a bubble (having done this myself) but a lot of my college friends left the country too.

astrange• 10 years ago

French tourists are very common in Japan, although I think it might be because of exposure to pop culture rather than emigration. They have an unfortunate habit of strip-mining retro video game stores and reselling everything at ten times the price back home.

M_Grey28• 10 years ago

I think that's incredibly naive. For one thing, moving from France to Germany is a huge cultural and linguistic leap. Moving from the US to Canada is really not.

raverbashing6• 10 years ago

No, it isn't, and people learn the language

baby5• 10 years ago

I did not think about that, it's true that it's relatively easy for an American to move to Canada.

programLyrique• 10 years ago

Moving from France to Belgium (in Wallonia where they speak Franch) is not a huge cultural or linguistic leap. As both countries are in the EU, it's very easy to emigrate; no visa needed. But as far as I know, there was no sudden emigration to Belgium after elections in France.

superzadeh3• 10 years ago

I recently moved from France to Germany, and the biggest cultural gap so far is that people in here respect traffic lights and using a qwerty keyboard. Otherwise, most people speak English and the lifestyle is similar.

MaysonL3• 10 years ago

A friend of mine moved from California to Madrid last month.

da022• 10 years ago

Because of politics? Or other reasons?

raverbashing6• 10 years ago

More rain, different money but might not be that difficult

xienze3• 10 years ago

Yeah, because it turns out you can't just waltz over the border to Canada and expect to be greeted with open arms as we do in the US.

jgh2• 10 years ago

I assume you're American and have had no experience with the US immigration system? Because they definitely do not do that in the US.

Scoundreller6• 10 years ago

TN-1 NAFTA visas pretty much work that way... for as long as NAFTA exists...

davidw2• 10 years ago

Things mostly have not become bad enough to move. I think Trump will be more Berlusconi than Mussolini. I hope so at least. I also wonder what it'd take to make us grab what we can and get out. If things start heading that way, it's a decision you really, really don't want to put off too long.

ajmurmann• 10 years ago

I can't believe this is the first time I've seen anyone compare Trump to Berlusconi. It's spot on.

robotresearcher2• 10 years ago

I moved to Canada from the US because of the G.W. Bush presidency. I'm not claiming it's statistically important, but my family moved. I'm lucky enough to be employable wherever I choose to live, so I exercised that power. Maybe you can too.

M_Grey28• 10 years ago

Are you glad to have moved? Any recommendations on cities to look at?

alexmlamb2• 10 years ago

Out of curiosity, what was the specific reason?

hawngyeedun2• 10 years ago

Those who have not lived outside of the US (or NA) don't realize how hard life is for the rest of the world; most will just move right back within months.

Been there myself. Life ain't easy out there.

Edit - A little bit of context here: I am speaking as someone who was born and raised in a developing country rife with racial and political problems. My point is, a lot of people who are yelling about immigrating due to the election result are overly naive with their outlook. It takes an incredible amount of effort to adjust to a new environment, not to speak of giving up the connections and comfort they have in the US. It's not as easy as just "moving to another country".

kintamanimatt• 10 years ago

Huh? How is life hard outside the US unless you're in a really undesirable part of the world?

M_Grey28• 10 years ago

Are you kidding? I've lived in Ireland, Kuwait, Holland, Greece... and only Greece was "hard" in any meaningful way.

nkassis2• 10 years ago

Canada and the US are virtually equivalent in most respect for jobs, standard of living etc... I'm from Canada, and now live in the US, I lived in north Florida and have seen people struggle incredibly compared to anyone I can think of in Canada. Even the poorest in Canada can at least see a doctor when they really need it. I know many people who are about to lose their only option to healthcare if ACA is repelled. They'd be better off in Canada.

prawn• 10 years ago

I know of a family (2A+3C) who were unhappy with the direction the UK were taking, and so moved to Sweden.

Obviously it's more said than done, but it happens and I admire those who follow through.

Symbiote2• 10 years ago

I moved UK->DK a year ago, ahead of the rush. I said I would, if UKIP got too many votes in the European election.

Since then, two friends have moved from London to Berlin, two others are planning to move to Frankfurt, two others have job offers in Stockholm or Malmø. (This is three couples.) Another friend has applied for a position in Lund.

Only 3/7 of these people are British, so the other 4 have already made a similar move.

dijit• 10 years ago

I also did this, London -> Malmo, just after the Tories came to power outside of a coalition (and for that reason), then brexit.. no regrets so far.

morgante2• 10 years ago

It entirely depends on how bad a Trump presidency turns out to be.

If you hold him to his campaign promises, at least 11 million Americans will leave.

inimino3• 10 years ago

Campaign promises are made to get elected, not to be kept. Given Trump's tendency to speak, shall we say, "freely", he is likely to be a much more moderate president than his campaign promises would suggest. Not that that is saying very much, but I think much of the panic and disbelief surrounding a Trump win arises from taking his words too seriously and too literally.

geodel3• 10 years ago

It will be interesting to see if people leave specially if announcements were made on FB/Twitter. The convenience of online medium and harshness of offline life can't be beat.

khyryk• 10 years ago

They'll try, but I don't think very many countries will be interested in taking them.

superzadeh3• 10 years ago

I moved from France to Germany already. If you work in software and don't like the direction France is taking, it's a no brainer.

Outpox2• 10 years ago

May I ask what's your field of work? How's the paycheck in Germany?

wallzz2• 10 years ago

I am considering to move from France to Germany too, how are the salaries there ?, I work in tech too.

Outpox2• 10 years ago

If Le Pen manage to be president in May 2017, I'll seriously consider moving from the country. But to go where? Maybe Luxembourg, they've got a shit ton of work in my field (web dev), they pay way more than in France but life is a bit more expensive and foreign workers aren't apprecieted in the whole country. With Trump elected today, the right wings movement in France will get bigger :(

wallzz2• 10 years ago

I will leave France too if Le Pen get elected, as a foreigner in France, there will be no chance to stay here.

smoe2• 10 years ago

Most don't, some do.

I myself moved from Switzerland to Colombia. Among other reasons because I wanted a break from the Swiss cultural and political climate.

But for me, emigrating isn't a definite thing. At least as long as I don't have children. Maybe I'll stay, maybe go back, maybe move somewhere else after a while.

eloff6• 10 years ago

As someone who spent ten years in Panama and working for a Swiss company, that must have been a culture shock after Switzerland. Did you speak Spanish before you moved?

colmvp• 10 years ago

Canada seems appealing to Americans until you realize you could be earning more in the U.S. while spending less on a bunch of other things.

Don't get me wrong, I love living in Canada and I mostly don't miss living in Bay Area, but most of my friends lament the fact that their salary and career opportunities are a joke compared to what they could have in the U.S. (even adjusting for cost of living).

M_Grey28• 10 years ago

Canada would be an odd choice for many reasons, but is probably attractive for the combination of proximity, and cultural/linguistic similarities. For me, I've been looking at Ireland, Denmark, or the Netherlands for a while, and I'd say they're looking far more attractive today than yesterday.

Besides, money isn't everything. There is something to be said for not having to deal with the insane evangelicals, bitter uneducated whites, and insane levels of violence too. Not to mention the impact this will have on the SCOTUS, and how incredibly screwed up healthcare is.

mahyarm4• 10 years ago

Thing is you can move to pretty much any western state or large city and not have to deal with most of that. Portland, Seattle, SF, LA, LV, etc.

tuna-piano• 10 years ago

If you didn't read the newspaper, how many of the negative things you mentioned would actually impact your life? Would you even know who was president for the last 4 (or the next 4) based on the impacts to your life? I'd guess not.

Just live your life and be happy, vote when you can but don't let what you don't control make you sad.

rayval• 10 years ago

Looking at Reykjavik, Taipei, Lisbon, Santiago de Chile and Valencia (Spain). In addition to well-known places like Sydney, Copenhagen, Amsterdam.

petre2• 10 years ago

Just forget Europe. It's ridden with socialists and laws slowing business to a halt. Add a failing currency to that cocktail and you have a failing economy. Of the whole of Europe, only Switzerland is somewhat attractive.

farright2• 10 years ago

"attractive for the combination of proximity, and cultural/linguistic similarities... There is something to be said for not having to deal with the ... insane levels of violence too."

If you just take the above elements of your reasoning, you've just described White flight.

kalms7• 10 years ago

My wife is an American and we live together here in Denmark.

If you move, please reach out. We'll be glad to welcome you!

dracht• 10 years ago

bitter uneducated whites

Why throw in 'whites' like it's some derogatory adjective? Are bitter uneducated blacks or hispanics preferable? Besides that, people without a college degree are not necessarily stupid or not allowed to have a voice.

vhab• 10 years ago

If you're in tech, Sweden is a more attractive opportunity. It's pretty similar to the Netherlands culture wise, but with a much bigger and faster moving tech scene.

That said, any in that line up will be a bit of a culture shock coming from the US.

Source: I'm Dutch and moved to Sweden

copperred2• 10 years ago

"There is something to be said for not having to deal with the insane evangelicals, bitter uneducated whites..."

This is exactly the sentiment that has brought us to this point. Either you are tolerant, inclusive or you are not. Try respecting the thoughts and options of others instead of leveling insults. Equality demands that people that differ from you still get a voice.

rmc• 10 years ago

Wait till you find out about Ireland's abortion laws! Trump is incredibly liberal on abortion when compared to Ireland's law!

Thaxll• 10 years ago

You know that most people don't care about earning SV salary right?

twblalock• 10 years ago

You know that most people don't care about earning SV salary right?

This does not apply only to high-income Americans. In fact, the downsides of a reduced salary are much worse for people with average and low incomes.

It's become pretty obvious since the 2008 recession that people of low incomes, or even average incomes, have few means to control the circumstances of their lives. They are at the mercy of economic and political forces beyond their control. Another recession would victimize them again, and they would be powerless to improve their circumstances.

Americans moving to Canada, whether or not they are high-paid tech workers, will almost certainly take a lower salary in Canada than the one they have in the US, for doing the same job. The safety net in Canada isn't that much better than the one in the US, aside from the obvious exception of free health care. So, a lower salary would be a pretty big sacrifice to make, because it would worsen the problems I mentioned above.

nikcub• 10 years ago

It did happen with Vietnam draft evaders. There is an entire generation of former Americans born in Australia and Canada: like Mel Gibson and Stewart Butterfield of Flickr/Slack.

Also with those fleeing communism as refugees or asylum seekers - i'm born to one of those.

I don't doubt that some people will move, but it won't be to the extent of previous migrations. You have a better chance of changing and fixing the USA from the inside.

caf• 10 years ago

Sort of funny, because Australia had its own Vietnam draft.

slantyyz• 10 years ago

Fun fact: Mel Gibson was born in Peekskill NY.

freshflowers• 10 years ago

And somehow I have little sympathy for people who want to leave the US for political reasons but have a problem with countries where wealth is distributed more evenly.

nodesocket• 10 years ago

I traveled around Europe and South America for five months recently (digital nomad)... The common question was "...why do you think the US has the technology and opportunities that it does...". My honest answer... Less regulation and an attitude of do what it takes to be successful in the early days. The hustle.

nicbou2• 10 years ago

That sounds a lot like it. It seems impossible to get filthy rich in Canada and even less in Germany where I currently live.

branchless• 10 years ago

To paraphrase: A society with less internal division seems appealing until you realise is has redistributive taxes that give people the chance to say no to explotative wages.

ap22213• 10 years ago

If one believes that parts of the global economy, especially the US and UK ones, are going to tank, does it even matter?

mhurron• 10 years ago

Canada seems appealing to Americans until they show up and realize other than healthcare, it's pretty much exactly the same place.

Want it to be like redneck country? Go to Alberta. Want to be like the West coast? Vancouver. Like New York, try New York lite, though Canada calls it Toronto.

The following things changed for me going from Canada to the US, there are more American Flags.

dblohm7• 10 years ago

Albertan here: Your redneck stereotyping is way off.

FuNe• 10 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong but lots of people here seem to think that Europe is some kind of progressive booming social-democratic economy/society with free health/education and all. The trend here IMHO is exactly the same trend that put Trump in office - only in Europe (having some more historic experience with such things) we do things a bit more hardcore. Extreme right wings (fascists) are getting more and more power, nationalistic views abound in all states, welfare state is being dismantled, etc. Our 'Mexicans' equivalent are people fleeing from war zones (Syria, Afganistan, etc) that get dumped in buffer Southern states (mainly Italy/Greece). Economy is in shambles for most countries (add in the terrible lock-ins caused by common currency). Each state is mostly looking after its own interests when there are big issues (war) at EU periphery. ... Do I need to go on? Fleeing USA for EU is like jumping a flaming ship for a ship that is half-sunk.

My 2 cents.

Pigo• 10 years ago

I could never move there because the Taco Bell's come with french fries in their combo meals. Nothing I encountered shocked my cultural sensibilities more.

Kequc• 10 years ago

Yeah we do thing a little bit differently. Respect our culture.

JulianMorrison• 10 years ago

Canada is not about to be run by a bullying sex pest and his running mate, the man who thinks the way to cure gay people is electroshock therapy. There is literally no comparison. Refugees do not care about whether they could earn more.

segmondy• 10 years ago

Life is not all about money, if it was, most people on this site who live in US will be heading to Silicon Valley.

Kurtz79• 10 years ago

I would say that the US is pretty much unique in this respect, and you would experience the same tradeoffs in most (all ?) of Western countries outside of it.

Even in countries where gross salaries are comparable, you would pay a ton more taxes.

Personally is a tradeoff I'm willing to make, as I believe what is sacrificed in financial terms is returned as increased social peace, but of course it's a matter of preference.

atomic77• 10 years ago

Notably, the Canadians in my various social media feeds were not talking about moving back.

allengeorge2• 10 years ago

There are three major things that hinder Canadian startups:

- Small internal market

- Less risk-taking atmosphere and attitude

- Lack of money (see point above)

If you're a startup founder and moving its these three points that'll impact you the most. If you're an employee, the significant salary disparity and the number of employment opportunities will be the biggest factor at play.

That all said, I loved staying in Toronto, and I met and worked with exceptionally strong engineers there; it's my plan to move back. YMMV depending on the company you join, and one (sad) issue is that the job pool is thinner - so jumping from one great startup to another is dramatically harder than SF.

slashdev• 10 years ago

If you're a software engineer working in Canada, you can get a 50% pay bump just by crossing the border.

My recommendation is get a remote job for a smaller company that will pay you in US dollars. After converting to Canadian dollars you'll be about 30% ahead of your Canadian peers but without having to pay Silicon Valley living costs or immigrate into a country crazy enough to elect Trump. If you can live away from Vancouver and Toronto you can really make that stretch.

santaclaus• 10 years ago

After converting to Canadian dollars you'll be about 30% ahead of your Canadian peers

Not for long -- America just out brexited the U.K.

eloff6• 10 years ago

By the way, if you want to be 300% ahead of your peers, get that remote job, sell your house, close your bank accounts in Canada, and seek non-resident status. Travel the world and bank that extra $70000 a year that would have gone to taxes. Ten years doing that and you can probably retire.

Speaking as someone who did that, and is amazed that it doesn't occur to more people. It's not for everyone, probably most people can't just up and move, their spouse likely can't get a job elsewhere that easily, and there is the question of what to do for the kid's education. If you're single though, you're crazy to stay.

xenihn• 10 years ago

The situation for devs in Canada is so much worse than in an American tech hub. It's actually pretty ridiculous. Everyone I know in Canada is intent on eventually relocating to NYC/SF/Seattle/LA because the jump in QOL is so huge.

hiram1123• 10 years ago

That's very true. Not for any political reasons, but I've always wanted to work in the EU (I lived there several times but was working) but everytime I look at salaries in Berlin or the NL or similar, it occurs to me that'd it be a better idea to just work here and save for a few more years, and then go there without the need to get a job.

I'd break even financially and would have more time to learn the language (though I suppose working in a foreign office would be a great way to learn the language, at least once the basics are obtained).

nvk8• 10 years ago

Corp tax in Ontario is 15% and free health care. Dev pay also comparable.

Come over :)

pmiller2• 10 years ago

Comparable to where? Not the Bay Area. I interviewed for a remote position with a Canadian company a while back, and they weren't able to pay me anywhere near a market rate Bay Area salary.

nvk8• 10 years ago

Bay area only pays more because 90% of your salary goes to rent.

ams6110• 10 years ago

Sure. Budweiser is $50/case and gas is $4/gal. How's health care free again?

nvk8• 10 years ago

Can't compete on cheap booze in Ontario (fancy stuff is comparable).. Everything else is.

echlebek• 10 years ago

It's free if you take transit and don't drink shitty beer.

fgandiya• 10 years ago

Cool, how welcoming are they to non Western immigrants? And also recent graduates?

nvk8• 10 years ago

Very welcoming. I was born in Brazil, being here over a decade.

ant6n3• 10 years ago

60% of Toronto is foreign born.

middleclick2• 10 years ago

Toronto is really diverse, and a very welcoming city.

a3camero2• 10 years ago

My wife is a non-Western immigrant (English is her third language). She says she's never faced any discrimination and many people assumes she was born here (in Toronto). Non-white people are very common and very accepted in Toronto.

bibstha• 10 years ago

What's the average tech salary for a 5 years+ experienced programmer (ruby, golang, etc)?

miguelrochefort2• 10 years ago

60k CAD

soggypopsicle2• 10 years ago

80-90k, my first job out of school was ~75k.

run4yourlives2• 10 years ago

I'm Canadian. Dev pay is not comparable unless your margin of error is literally tens of thousands of dollars.

kspaans• 10 years ago

Cost of living in Toronto is roughly 30% cheaper than SF: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/san-fra...?

So a 15-20% salary reduction probably puts you ahead.

nvk8• 10 years ago

Every good dev I know makes 100K+

nvk8• 10 years ago

Every good dev I know makes 100K+ and cost of living is much less.

nvk8• 10 years ago

Every good dev I know makes 100K+, some make 150K+ and cost of living is much less.

kasey_junk2• 10 years ago

The major tech centers in Canada have major housing price issues. The housing to salary ratio in Vancouver and Toronto are terrifying.

nfoz• 10 years ago

An exception is Waterloo.

Daniel_Marcos• 10 years ago

But Waterloo isn't a great city to live in. Especially for young professionals, Waterloo is not nearly as exciting as Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver.

kasey_junk2• 10 years ago

Waterloo demographically compares to Raleigh. I make no judgement about relative merits of living there, but just in size it's small.

[edit] just Raleigh mind you, The Triangle is much bigger than that.

mattkrause8• 10 years ago

Montreal's housing is comically affordable compared to most cities on the east and west coasts.

soggypopsicle2• 10 years ago

Everything is on par with or cheaper, East of Montreal.

tacoman• 10 years ago

This probably has more to do with Patch Tuesday than the extra 500 page loads it got.

namank• 10 years ago

$20 says the crash is because of all the online jokes about moving to Canada that contain links to this site.

symlinkk• 10 years ago

Agreed. It's still funny though.

Tomte• 10 years ago

If you're afraid of the US President, moving abroad isn't helpful. His domestic power is severely limited and checks-n-balanced.

Granted, that only counts for fear of a semi-tyrannical president, not necessarily for economic concerns.

MichaelBurge2• 10 years ago

Republicans won the House and Senate too, and he gets to appoint probably 3 justices to the Supreme Court.

So it'll be a more unified government than you've seen in a long time, which makes Trump able to get a lot of his platform through.

It's a great time to live in America.

ant6n3• 10 years ago

What's that anyway, besides 'building a wall and make Mexico pay for it'?

shellyfornally• 10 years ago

One of the things that could make this the most important presidential election in history is that there could be an unprecendented number of Supreme Court nominations in the next 4-8 years. That, to me, is what makes this such an important election since the SC has, in my opinion, been stepping beyond its power in the last 10 years so the utility of nomination becomes even more important.

Other than that, you're right, House and Senate control is far more important. But don't underestimate these god-awful presidential signing statements that have become so popular. Appointed cabinet positions can make quite a difference depending on the domain. There are other ways to side-step the separation of powers.

anigbrowl2• 10 years ago

This is breathtakingly naive. The man has coasted to power on a wave of vicious prejudice. Go back and look at the highlights of the GOP convention to get an idea of how he intends to govern.

empath754• 10 years ago

Not any more. Bush and Obama really pushed the boundaries of what's possible with executive actions. He's also going to have the most invasive surveillance state in human history at his fingertips, and he's surrounded himself with people who love to settle scores.

mahyarm4• 10 years ago

As a Canadian who moved away, I must warn you that Canada has a form of dutch disease. Resource extraction investments have a much better risk/return ratio, so the pay doesn't even approach US levels. Thus software doesn't approach the levels of investment you have in the USA. And you thought SF was bad, wait until you see what has gone wrong with the housing markets in Toronto and Vancouver.

I liked Canada and it's sad that I have to live away from my family, but I would be a fool to stay otherwise.

throwaway5752• 10 years ago

What would have happened if Rob Ford had been elected PM?

querulous• 10 years ago

you can just read this to get a pretty good idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Harper#Prime_Minister_...

cperciva4• 10 years ago

The "dutch disease" went away with falling oil prices. I agree that the housing markets in Vancouver and Toronto are nuts, but until today it looked like they were cooling down.

Unfortunately, we might see another spike in foreign investment in Canadian housing thanks to this election...

hackerboos• 10 years ago

I moved to Toronto from the UK, received a solid 25% increase in salary and cut my rent expenditure in half.

Houses are expensive here but still cheaper than London or SF.

Canada isn't all doom and gloom.

patrick_99• 10 years ago

This. Canadian salaries are low, compared to the US. They're much better than Europe.

DeBraid• 10 years ago

Could you expand on the reasons why you'd be a fool to stay? Thanks.

mahyarm4• 10 years ago

When I was interviewing in vancouver and seattle, the seattle offer was about double. Housing and everything else cost less and the income tax rate was lower. Back then the currencies were even. Now they are not, so its an even better idea to work in the USA. You pay off student loans and save money that much faster.

Soon after I moved to the bay area because the companies there were more interesting, but the pay was probably about even compared to seattle.

That is why it would of been foolish to stay.

michaelhoffman• 10 years ago

Rent in Toronto is way, way cheaper than in San Francisco.

zymhan• 10 years ago

And the pay much less.

mtw2• 10 years ago

Real estate is much more reasonable in Montreal or in Calgary. And there are startups hiring also in those cities

anguswithgusto4• 10 years ago

Montreal startups hiring:

-Transit (transitapp.com)

-Unsplash (unsplash.com)

-Hopper (hopper.com)

-Breather (breather.com)

-Sonder (sonder.com)

-Busbud (busbud.com)

-AmpMe (ampme.com)

-Fuzzy AI (fuzzy.ai)

-Frank & Oak (frankandoak.com)

You can get a pretty nice 1 BR apartment in Montreal for ~$600 US/mo. Incredible bars, beautiful people, great schools, bike paths, and lots of outdoor rinks to play hockey in the winter :-)

FYI: Montreal startups operate in English!

dboy1612• 10 years ago

Busbud (busbud.com) is as well.

jrockway2• 10 years ago

But no bikeshare in the winter :(

anguswithgusto4• 10 years ago

Unlike SF, we have great public transit! Most startups are a 5 minute walk from a subway stop, and it's cleaner/less crowded. Few people own cars here. (But granted, the snow is no joke!)

rbobby• 10 years ago

Just ShovelShare(tm) :)

kylestlb• 10 years ago

I'm a lifelong Californian hockey player. This sounds nice! The winters would be tough, though.

giarc• 10 years ago

A US president that thinks climate change is a hoax might help alter the North American weather.

gdilla3• 10 years ago

but a crazy provincial government and high taxes.

anguswithgusto4• 10 years ago

crazy is relative ;)

mtw2• 10 years ago

Also : immigrating to Canada is time-consuming and exhausting (typically 1 year and lots of paper work) but going to Canada with a work visa is quick and painless. Most of the time, startups are taking care of the paperwork and can even help of the relocation. And if you really like the place, after a few months, you can then apply for immigration.

lightlyused• 10 years ago

Is there an age limit?

nhebb• 10 years ago

I don't even know how to respond to this. People die trying to make it into the U.S. I'm not a flag-waving jingoist, but the the United States is a f'ing great place to live.

jrockway2• 10 years ago

Yeah, it's pretty good.

Will Trump keep it that way?

empath754• 10 years ago

It is. It won't be next year.

My original plan was to move and telecommute, but that's kind of fucked because the dollar is crashing.

anigbrowl2• 10 years ago

email me

ryanhuff• 10 years ago

Why will it be much different next year? I don't see much changing in the short term besides a new set of characters in the news. Longer term, we'll see.

raquo2• 10 years ago

That depends on what you compare it to. Plenty of first world countries are ahead of the US in many important aspects. But if you're setting the bar on the level of Russia or some third world countries, then yeah, it's pretty great.

adventured• 10 years ago

The US is ahead of plenty of first world countries in many important aspects.

- Unemployment rate and job openings

- Economic growth

- Disposable income

- Household income

- Low middle class tax rates

- GDP per capita

- Economic productivity

- Wealth creation opportunities

- Access to capital and investment

- Diversity (most competing first world nations are very homogeneous)

- Scale and variety of industry, the US is the #2 manufacturing nation for example

- Freedom of speech and ease of movement

- Tech infrastructure

- Best universities on earth

- By far the highest research & scientific output of any nation

- Leadership positions in: pharma, biotech, genetech, aerospace, software, Internet tech broadly, cloud, ecommerce, mobile, artificial intelligence, virtual reality, space / space tech, defense / military, agriculture, electric vehicles, nuclear and other energy fields, one of the leaders in solar, and numerous other fields

- America's median standard of living is still among the top dozen nations on earth

dejawu• 10 years ago

Those same people that would die trying to make it into the US are now going to be turned away if they do make it. The America that prides itself being a destination of salvation for immigrants is not the America that Trump wants to create.

reflexive2• 10 years ago

I haven't heard any of Trump's opponents threaten to move to Mexico... ;-)

jetblackio• 10 years ago

I'm moving to Mexico in a few months :)

reflexive2• 10 years ago

Smart - having spent time in both places, I'd hole up in Baja over Lake Ontario any day.

zhemao• 10 years ago

Well, some of them will be, but not by choice.

lotsoflumens2• 10 years ago

If any of you have seen an Ottawa winter, you'll understand that the one guy on the night-shift there is too busy trying to figure out how fast he can get to Australia.

retreatguru5• 10 years ago

In 20 years Ottawa will be sub tropical thanks to global warming ;)

lotsoflumens2• 10 years ago

I totally agree - the problem is that for every degree of warming Trudeau will raise the carbon tax 5%.

alexbanks• 10 years ago

My girlfriend and I (Both software devs) would gladly move to Canada with the help of a company employing us. Almost immediately. We have little to no attachment to our current city of Portland.

Scoundreller6• 10 years ago

Research TN-1 visas. No labour market assessment required. Need to have a degree or other significant experience though.

angryteabag2• 10 years ago

What is considered significant experience?

vchynarov2• 10 years ago

TN-1 is because of NAFTA. (Source: http://www.canadiansinusa.com/Working-in-the-US/tn-visa.html).

Trump is well-known for being extremely against NAFTA.

a3camero2• 10 years ago

You may want to come check out Toronto before moving here. A great event to see what the City's tech scene is like is HackerNest. It's once a month. You could probably also line up some interviews for your trip.

danieltillett2• 10 years ago

Is it good or bad news that the Australian immigration website is still up [1]?

1. https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/457-

simplexion• 10 years ago

We already voted in our version of Trump, so we probably won't let you in.

danieltillett2• 10 years ago

I am already here :)

As long as you don’t come by boat you should be fine.

schappim• 10 years ago

But the Yanks don't have a means to oust him like Turnbull did...

gnipgnip• 10 years ago

Is it just me who is cursing themselves for not shorting USDJPY at the right moment ?

Damn. Whoever thought being obsessed with the election coverage would be useful.

hellofunk• 10 years ago

Hindsight.

Scoundreller6• 10 years ago

You also get a few more Canadian cents per US$ since the markets closed today, so your money goes further.

And vacations to Mexico just got 10% cheaper.

readhn• 10 years ago

I stick to George Carlin's advice: I'm in the front seat and I want the best entertainment. And Trump will deliver the best entertainment of all candidates! I'm staying to watch this circus, pass the pop corn!

peeters• 10 years ago

I don't really get the mindset of "if Trump wins I'm moving to X country." The citizens in all of those countries are much more scared of a Trump presidency than Americans seem to be. It stands to reason that the best place to weather a Trump administration is from within the U.S.

I mean, when your guy is threatening to disband NATO, tear up NAFTA (and rejects free trade as a whole), reinstate torture as official policy, etc...would you rather live in the U.S. or in one of its allied countries?

gedrap• 10 years ago

As someone from a country which strongly depends on NATO (Lithuania, former Soviet state, shared border with heavily militarized Russian territory Kaliningrad), you are spot on.

empath754• 10 years ago

Sorry :(

drakonandor2• 10 years ago

Lithuania, another NATO country which contributes about half of what they're supposed to to the collective defense.

geodel3• 10 years ago

Do you think Twitter/FB commenters are dead serious about moving? To me it is at same level as today's lunch photos: just grab attention and likes by whatever means.

empath754• 10 years ago

would you rather live in the U.S. or in one of its allied countries?

I guess it depends on whether you're a minority or not, doesn't it?

mahyarm4• 10 years ago

Democratic voters always say something similar to some degree when a republican president (and only president) gets voted in.

meaganc• 10 years ago

It seems like it would be more useful for Silicon Valley to just put their money where their mouth is and declare war. Fund education like crazy, pour a ton of money into environmental causes and just go nuts. Create a useful America.

jitix• 10 years ago

Despite the caring face that most startups put up they all have to make money to survive. Only when they grow really big can they even think of pursuing social goals and even then they will have opposition from the shareholders.

patrickg_zill• 10 years ago

Do you really want to move to a country whose government can't even keep a mostly-static-webpage site up?

hurricaneSlider• 10 years ago

Like affordable healthcare .gov?

stuxnet79• 10 years ago

Well, clearly the country can benefit from American talent.

freeone30002• 10 years ago

The same website handles actual processing of citizenship and permanent residency applications, such as form submissions, qualification questions, and so on. It runs a very light client so all of the validation is server-side. Far cry from "mostly static".

unix• 10 years ago

China, Welcome you. :-)

ingenieros• 10 years ago

I would advice anyone considering moving to a different country to spend some time studying FATCA. Even if you move out of the U.S you will still be responsible for filing taxes every single year unless you renounce your citizenship which is not easy by any means. Foreign banks are required by FATCA law to pass all your financial information to the I.R.S and in some countries they will downright refuse opening a bank account for american citizens to avoid this nuissance.

mattkrause8• 10 years ago

It's annoying and maybe a little invasive, but it's not impossible. The FBAR takes about 10 minutes to fill out and submit, and the bank may want a few extra forms if you earn a lot of interest.

Taxes are annoying, but between treaties and the foreign income exclusion or credit, you probably won't be double-taxed.

spoonie7• 10 years ago

The US has tax treaties with just about anywhere good want to go, so no double-taxation. (And no, paying income tax in two countries is not double-taxation.)

platita• 10 years ago

There actually are more options than just the Canadian cities and there's a site for figuring out your best options: http://teleport.org

seikatsu• 10 years ago

Well, https://teleport.org is still up, for searching 200+ other cities you could move to...

grizzles2• 10 years ago

If you need to leave the U.S. consider moving to Australia. (I did) The cost of living here is high, but the salaries are very high for professionals. If you are a talented thrifty person - you can save a lot of money fast. Good surfing too.

For startups. you get about ~50c back on the dollar from the gov't annually. You don't need to make a single dollar in profit to get that, it is based on the invested capital.

Feel free to hit me up if you have any questions.

Rinzler89• 10 years ago

Hi grizzles, as a european currently vliving in Austria I am quite interested in relcoating to Australia for the weather and the people but I'm not sure how the tech scene is over there for EE jobs like Embedded Software/Firmware Engineer. I had a quick look on indeed but I wasn't very lucky.

grizzles2• 10 years ago

Try seek.com.au. It's the biggest job site here by a big margin. Also I know someone that is looking for an EE, so you can send me your cv (email in profile) too if you wish.

dmode• 10 years ago

I have lived extensively in NL and Denmark. Would give an arm and a leg to move there again. Need to find a job for myself and wife there

shostack3• 10 years ago

What is it like for an American making the move? What were the best and worst parts?

dep_b• 10 years ago

First paying the heavy Dutch taxes, then having to pay US taxes because you're still a citizen.

0xmohit• 10 years ago

No surprises. It runs on Windows with IIS as the web server [0].

[0] http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.cic.g...

hueving3• 10 years ago

Leaving the country over an election like this seems pretty childish IMO. Why wouldn't you wait until there was, you know, some kind of policy change before making that kind of massive life decision?

eropple• 10 years ago

Because, frankly? A country that is down with electing somebody who overtly panders to white supremacists is not a country I really want to be in. A country that elects somebody who thinks electrocuting teenagers to cure homosexuality is not a country I really want to be in. I don't need to see what they will do to know what they have done.

I don't intend to move stupidly, and I don't intend to unless I can better my situation--but I wasn't even considering it yesterday, and I am now.

hueving3• 10 years ago

You are so brave for quitting the moment your political ideals are challenged. /s

The people that voted in trump represent about 1/5th of the population. How about sticking around and fucking participating rather than expecting a political free ride?

microcolonel• 10 years ago

For what it's worth, I doubt the infrastructure was that good to begin with. Sites put up by my country's government are only set up to handle normal load.

rileyt• 10 years ago

Here is a helpful tool I made for anyone considering moving to Canada!

https://www.canadiantechjobsforamericans.com/

bitmapbrother• 10 years ago

I've heard a lot of people say, in the U.S, that if this or that happens then "I'm moving to Canada". It's as if they think Canada would welcome them with open arms. Think again.

danm07• 10 years ago

I've lived in LA, SF, Boston, Toronto, and Vancouver.

I liked SF and Boston. Things moved a lot quicker. The cities were more populated, people were more educated (I was near Harvard / MIT / UC Berkeley ) and unassuming.

I went to college near Toronto, and almost all my professors were American. They liked Canada for all the reasons I didn't like it. Things seemed to progress slower than their American counterparts, and people were less wound up. The downside is that the service quality in the private sector is not comparable that of the US.

I currently reside in Vancouver. It's beautiful here, but you get lots of rain during winter seasons. People are friendly. It's expensive if you live near the city, but where isn't?

Pay is definitely not as good if you're an engineer... Maybe 70 cents on the dollar. If you're trying to build a software startup, definitely consider moving your HQ to Canada (or outside of SF!), and keeping a corporate office in SV for fundraising. There's less competition for engineers, and you'll make 30% more progress per dollar invested.

Technology-wise, I'd suggest Waterloo. Silicon Valley hires graduates from U of Waterloo only second to UC Berkeley. Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics chaired by Stephen Hawkings is also there. The city is also home to Institute of Quantum Computing, started by the founder of Blackberry.

D-Wave, one of the major players in quantum computing is based in British Columbia.

In terms of AI, Canada is a bit of a talent drain. Most of the lead researchers and professors have been lured to Oxford or Google or wherever.

Venture Capital presence is limited here. Vancouver has only got a handful of major venture firms. Though, I met a couple of investors from Silicon Valley investors trying to start something up near UBC. I can't say much about Toronto.

Quality of living is pretty good here. I can go out for walks during midnight and not have to worry about getting robbed - something I was never able to do in LA. Many parks.

Overall, you'd like Canada if you're willing to trade slower pace, liberal views, colder weather for population size, and American imperialism.

Every American I've met in Canada really enjoyed being here, just as every Canadian in America I've met really enjoyed being there.

I'm no exception. There's something I love about the narrow Cobblestone streets in Cambridge, the golden hills in SF Bay Area, the weather in LA. And oddly enough, I've found that people I've met in the US are more personable than those in Canada. I suppose that comes with the more unified sense of national identity that is in someways a fascade.

partycoder• 10 years ago

Canada is not bad if you feel comfortable in that weather.

There are some cultural differences, but at a professional level it is very similar to the US.

They do seem friendlier though. Much friendlier.

throw2016• 10 years ago

Let's get real. No one is going to Canada. This is just grist and posturing for the social media mill. But it's still fun.

Trump does not take himself seriously, so why should you. The trump presidency is going to be a clusterfuck, gaffes galore, pure comedy but hopefully eventually harmless and the bigger risk is people overreacting.

Seriously nothing can be worse than the sinister and duplicitious behind the scenes status quo represented by Hilary Clinton and her ilk. This is 4 years for the entrenched frauds and clowns in politics and media to reassess their ruling strategies as it appears nearly everyone can now see through their bullshit and crave honesty and sincerity even if its ugly.

johnnydoebk• 10 years ago

Guys, take me to the first world. I want to suffer, too.

joeclark77• 10 years ago

The snarky reply to the "moving to Canada" thing is: why don't all these California liberals want move to Mexico? It's closer, isn't it?

middleclick2• 10 years ago

It's pretty clear what you are insinuating, but Canada is more culturally similar to the US, and not Mexico. Also not to forget I have to learn Spanish.

omribahumi2• 10 years ago

No one mentioned Tel-Aviv. We have excellent weather, food and beach. Google and Facebook have engineering offices in Tel-Aviv, and there are lots of start-ups here.

I'm not sure what's the process of getting a visa though. Jewish people can get citizenship relatively easy (Jewish state yada yada yada).

Disclaimer: I work at Facebook Tel-Aviv

diego_moita• 10 years ago

No one mentioned Tel-Aviv

People that fear Trumpist racism are very much the same people that understand Israel as a racist country.

omribahumi2• 10 years ago

I'm not going to get into this discussion. You're welcome to have your opinion, but I don't think all Trump's objectors are against Israel.

devonkim2• 10 years ago

What happened or didn't happen to the people running the site between 2004 and now when GWB was re-elected? You'd think that you should be shoring up the website seeing spikes for a while, and it's been over 10 years since that site crash and populations haven't gotten an order of magnitude higher exactly.

nathanvanfleet2• 10 years ago

If it happens once every 8 years I can understand that the wouldn't care much. Do you expect them to employ expensive services that would cost them a lot of money to stop that just for one day? It's government, they just live with it.

devonkim2• 10 years ago

I've worked in government before and understand bureaucracy but there's a certain level of quality even they have standards for. Most government sites aren't massive volume transactions but primarily static brochure type sites that may need some occasional updates making them suitable for many commercial CMSes that are well known and easy to optimize. Adding caching for documents that are almost never updated and adding a CDN layer for the application are inexpensive compared to writing and even hosting the CMS itself (usually on rather expensive TCO on-premise infrastructure). Furthermore, this kind of upgrade helps fulfill use cases of access and availability to government-provided services that is the spirit of the law in many developed countries, especially as citizens increasingly reach to online services for their interaction with governments.

nathanvanfleet2• 10 years ago

As if Canada is far enough away. Good luck.

ceejay• 10 years ago

Before we know it, politicians in Canada will be promising their citizens they're going to build a wall of their own ;)

GnarfGnarf• 10 years ago

Now they get to find out what labour laws are like for aliens :o)

tallanvor• 10 years ago

I'm seriously considering switching citizenship now - I've lived in Norway long enough that I can, although I'm not sure how long the process will take or cost.

chunky1994• 10 years ago

The folks over at anonymous were bombarding the site according to some of the shadier 4chan boards.

grownseed2• 10 years ago

A few points I think are relevant:

- I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly, you can still do something about it, we're not quite talking systemic harassment yet...

- as a friend of mine pointed out, Canada is not a consolation prize for disgruntled americans, it's a real country, with its own real people and its own real problems

- having just aquired my canadian permanent residence after years and lots of money, it was a harrowing process. Clogging the already dysfunctional immigration system en masse as a whim is not just stupid, it's insulting to people currently going through immigration, and downright threatening to people who are in very real danger

If you're a disgruntled US citizen, I can understand your frustration, but please don't take this lightly.

bwooceli3• 10 years ago

Assuming it's not crashed by the minorities who are likely to feel the brunt of the policy changes... I'm having a lot of very sober conversations with my immigrant friends.

halite• 10 years ago

having just aquired my canadian permanent residence after years and lots of money

Slightly off topic:

I've been through the process as well and accept the frustrations but I didn't not think the costs were unreasonable. I only had to pay CIC application fees. How was the process harrowing for you? Not defending the frustration, just curious I guess.

arcticbull4• 10 years ago

Compare it to US immigration also, where I got 6 years and easily over $20,000 in employer-paid costs in, and didn't even get to the green card stage.

[EDIT] Overstated cost, ran the numbers it's $20-25K.

grownseed2• 10 years ago

You have a point, I think the costs probably depend on a lot of factors, and I suppose a "lot of money" is relative. I expressed some of my frustrations in this rather long comment here [0]. I went through CEC, and in order to get points I had to pass language exams in English and in French, even though I have certified Education in both languages, had to certify my degree, get background checks for a number of countries, etc. It all added up very quickly for me, but that likely varies from person to person. That said, I'm aware that I'm luckier than most.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11879503

mc323• 10 years ago

This.

And somewhat ironically, if Hillary had won people would be telling those disenfranchised voters who broke for Trump to listen to the will of the people. That it was time to man/woman up. But because they lost they now feel like they lost all.

That feeling is what drove Trump voters --they have lost their way of life. The one where one didn't have to have a graduate degree to have a stable and dependable income --but these people don't have them means to "run to Canada (or Mexico)".

And Bernie warned the Hillary campaign of this but she thought she had white women in the bag as well as thinking Hispanics voting democratic would pull it out for her.

mejari2• 10 years ago

And somewhat ironically, if Hillary had won people would be telling those disenfranchised voters who broke for Trump to listen to the will of the people

Hillary wasn't threatening groups of people. Muslims, gays, transgender people, and more are actually in for a worse time in this country. It's not always about just being disgruntled.

Merad• 10 years ago

I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly

I have some fairly close friends who are Muslim, Latino, and LGBT. Trump has been quite nasty towards the first two groups, and his running mate (likely to be one of the most powerful VPs in US history) makes no secret of opposing the rights of the latter group. This morning I'm hearing all of them express legitimate fear for their future. I'm not saying that running to Canada is the answer for them or anyone else, but this is not your typical "generic Republican vs generic Democrat, boo-hoo my side lost" post-election complaining.

e12e• 10 years ago

While taking a deep breath to avoid hyperbole about Trump, it might be worth pointing out that the 9th of November is the anniversary for the Kristallnacht:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

Now, I honestly don't think Trump will be as bad as Mussolini, Franco or Hitler - but we do have some fairly horrifying recent precedent for what might happen when a right-wing populist gains power during an economic crisis.

I don't think the fact that the US have spent years getting ready for, in the words of Edward Snowden(?): "turn key totalitarianism", along with a radical militarization of the police force makes much of an improvement.

That said:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/11/trump-victory-clinton-san...

"Politics Is the Solution

We can’t move to Canada or hide under the bed. This is a moment to embrace democratic politics, not repudiate them."

xiaoma• 10 years ago

They're not leaving the country. Their country left them.

theandrewbailey• 10 years ago

That's ironic, considering that's how most Trump voters feel.

mikeash• 10 years ago

I wouldn't worry about it. Threatening to move to Canada after a political loss is a time-honored American tradition, and not one which produces much in the way of concrete results.

rattray2• 10 years ago

Please keep in mind that many people currently living in the US may feel that they are in "very real danger", or may be soon.

We're not taking this lightly. I'm not "disgruntled", I'm concerned that my friends and family may face persecution, disenfranchisement, or even death (eg; nuclear war).

You may think that's unlikely, but please respect that it would be reasonable to estimate a nontrivial risk of catastrophe in the US.

Congratulations on your residence status.

eloff6• 10 years ago

I think we're safer from nuclear war now, at least in the short-term. Hillary was going to continue the hard-line against Russia. Trump will likely come to a civilized agreement with them that deescalates the situation. There's no secret that he's Putin's favorite candidate (while the rest of Europe is in shock right now.)

More concerning is his policy with regard to Iran, but the current treaty covers our butts in the short term, while giving the Iranians a sure shot at nuclear capability down the road. Once they get nukes, the Saudis will want them too and the world will be a few minutes closer to midnight. It remains to be seen if Trump will make the situation better or worse.

aaron695• 10 years ago

- I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly, you can still do something about it, we're not quite talking systemic harassment yet...

Leaving your entire life, job, family behind for principals is cowardly?

What rubbish. It's amazingly brave.

This is on par with calling suicide bombers cowardly.

To be quite frank cowardice is doing nothing and calling others cowards.

bwooceli3• 10 years ago

There's more to it than just sour grapes, there are minorities legitimately concerned about what their future in America looks like, would not be surprised if they made up a decent chunk of the visitors to that site.

mrfusion• 10 years ago

Is this really feasible for Americans? Is it hard to get citizenship? Would double taxation kill you?

vivekd• 10 years ago

I say we Canadians build a wall and make America pay for it.

juliend2• 10 years ago

As a Canadian, I want to say that the great country that is the United States absolutely needs democrat voters more than ever. So PLEASE stay home for the democracy in your country.

SixSigma• 10 years ago

What poor risk analysis on behalf of voters.

Same happened at Brexit. Businesses suddenly reacting to what had happened rather than being prepared for something they had known was a possibility for months if not years.

zxcvvcxz• 10 years ago

Serious question - why doesn't anyone talk about moving to Mexico? It's a lot warmer...

s0me0ne• 10 years ago

I believe it takes like 5 yrs for citizenship anyway, I remember hearing something like that back in 2005

ibrotzky• 10 years ago

Coming to Canada? We can help, www.vanhack.com, our focus is helping international tech talent get jobs in Canada.

Check out our jobs board: app.vanhack.com/jobboard and shoot me an email with any questions: ilya@vanhack.com

Canada's immigration website crashes on election night

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