I built a demo of what AI chat will look like when it's “free” and ad-supported

https://99helpers.com/tools/ad-supported-chat

by nickk81 • 5 months ago

591 308 5 months ago

nickk8120• 5 months ago

We all know the pattern: something useful launches → it becomes popular → it needs to make money → ads everywhere.

AI chat is heading the same way. So I built a fully interactive demo that shows what an ad-supported AI chatbot could actually look like: https://99helpers.com/tools/ad-supported-chat

It includes every monetization pattern you can think of:

- Pre-chat interstitials (like YouTube pre-rolls, but for chat) - Sponsored AI responses (the AI casually recommends products mid-answer) - Freemium gates (5 free messages, then watch an ad to continue) - Banner ads, sidebar ads, retargeting ads - Sponsored suggestion chips ("Ask about BrainBoost Pro! ")

nickk8120• 5 months ago

Wow, #1 post on HN right now... First time ever for me.

scyzoryk_xyz• 5 months ago

Time to sell some ads

tempodox• 5 months ago

Next step will be that OpenAI hires you because you share their vision for the future. See that you file the patents first.

amarant3• 5 months ago

Please patent everything about this app! Patent the whole "tune AI to sell relevant products" methodology. Aggressively sue anyone who uses your IP. Set up a go fund me or something to cover your legal costs, alternatively sell a licence to use the IP to one of the major AI houses(but not all of them, please not all of them).

Set up an estate to protect this IP until 70 years after your death. After that I guess we're doomed, but we'll have had a good run of it until then at least!

Nevermark2• 5 months ago

We all know the pattern: something useful launches → it becomes popular → it needs to make money → [ Surveillance → Psychological Manipulation/Addiction → "Personalized" ] ads everywhere.

The incentives will be:

1. Get people psychologically dependent in any way possible.

2. Incentivize any "creators" that help with #1. Pose as "content neutral", while actually funding and pumping any content that creates "engagement" regardless of harm.

3. Collate as much information from external sources on each user as possible.

4. User every interaction with a user to improve information leverage being accumulated by #3.

5. Feed ads to users based on surveillance-informed predicted vulnerabilities, in order to maximize ad valuations. Special shout out to scams that work, because they work, they pay.

6. Once the user experience is thoroughly enshittified, start enshittifying the ad customer market by raising prices, minimizing the margins left for product and service advertisers.

7. Present company as evidence of US strength in tech, as apposed to a scaled up, centralized, multi-directed economic parasite.

TLDR: Surveillance leveraged ads are many times worse than just ads. With AI magnifying surveillance intake and leverage to unprecedented highs.

Privacy needs to start being treated like every other security risk. Because every vulnerability will be increasingly exploited, and exploited increasingly well.

As long as it is legal to scale up conflicts of interest, such as surveillance informed manipulation, paying for and pumping up harmful "creator" content, selling ads to scammers, harms will keep scaling up.

Sites should not have any safe harbor for content they pay for, and for content they are paid to deliver.

gessha2• 5 months ago

You forget the step where the company and investors try their best to kill any competition that eats into the margins.

After they have their niche by the balls, they enshittify the product as much as the users are willing to tolerate and then some more.

samiv• 5 months ago

Sad but true.

You also forgot to elaborate on the later company life cycle where the MBAs take over and only serve themselves and the Wall Street.

Product and product development is a cost center that is cut away to bare minimum skeleton crew. Customers are an inconvenience and only exist for the company to extract maximum benefit from while offering the minimum.

Actual product support is killed, and instead user supported forums are promoted. Useful idiots do the work unpaid for a mere digital badge.

Any new product feature that actually gets developed is not for the users but for the company. Features that make it through are either more data extraction, ads, surveillance or a dark pattern to try to trick the user for more money.

lopis• 5 months ago

With AI I think we're about to see much more sinister monetization models, beyond simple user facing ads. We're already seeing the tech and the data being sold to governments. The general population will be much easier to sway if you control the output of AI. It's social media propaganda on steroids.

mort96• 5 months ago

And the power we give it in terms of e.g choosing a tech stack...

How much would Vercel be willing to pay OpenAI and Anthropic to nudge ChatGPT and Claude towards producing Vercel-compatible next.js apps? Maybe the models could even ask, "Do you want me to deploy the app to Vercel using their free plan?".

z_• 5 months ago

Now file the patents.

Muhammad5233• 5 months ago

That'd be the most philanthropic use of software patents ever made in human history

api4• 5 months ago

Is this avoidable? These things cost money to run. Who pays if not with ads?

There will I’m sure be the ability to pay and not have ads just like there is on streaming platforms, podcasts, etc.

Or should there be tax supported free AI?

ai_• 5 months ago

And as we've seen with streaming it'll have ads anyway despite the fact that you're paying.

Muhammad5233• 5 months ago

If you run the models locally, you can avoid ads. There are some apps out there on githup that allow to run ai models on android phones.

grumbel• 5 months ago

Is this avoidable?

Instead of interacting with the cloud model directly, run a simple local model to interact with the cloud model and have it filter out all the ads before they reach you.

This is already what the chatbots do when it comes to interacting with rest of the Web, instead of you visiting websites yourself, they collect the information from the websites for you and present it in a format of your choice without the websites ads.

I don't see the ad model working out for chatbots in the long run given that those AI models already are the perfect ad filter.

bensyverson3• 5 months ago

Eventually the price of RAM will revert to the mean and start going down again. GPU power will continue to climb. Model efficiency (intelligence per billion params) will increase.

These trends combined will mean that eventually it will seem old-fashioned to use a remotely-hosted model for anything other than the most demanding tasks. Just as we don't use mainframes for computation anymore outside of niche tasks like 3D render farms.

The only people using ad-supported AI will be people who can't afford a newer device with local inference. So it will be more or less like the web today, where ads are primarily targeted and viewed by less-affluent and less-technical users.

Of course, I can't see the future, but it would take a lot for those trend lines to not converge. The only thing that could delay the convergence is true AGI, but I'm currently not a believer.

tensor• 5 months ago

There are many products without ad-free versions (including tvs now lol). Streaming services are starting to go this way too.

Muhammad5233• 5 months ago

Maybe people will start running local models on their phones to avoid this, i've seen a couple of apps for android that do just that.

amarant3• 5 months ago

My rtx5090 does not have enough vram to run a large model at usable speeds.

What kind of phone do you have that outperforms my gaming rig?

EFreethought• 5 months ago

Maybe there will be models-as-a-service, MaaS as well. Pay extra for no ads. Like Proton Mail vs Gmail.

alexhans• 5 months ago

Dark patterns degrade our computing experience and are worth illustrating, but there's a larger discussion to be had about keeping individual control over our own devices.

Technically, that means being able to install Linux, run local models, and use open-source software as we see fit.

Legally, it's opposing compliance guises that erode those rights, like backdoors or restrictions on what can run so that we no longer really in control of the hardware we own but need to adjust to the whims of the controller/operator, which could, at a moments notice, default to these dark patterns for "pragmatic reasons" of their own which don't align with your interests.

We know enough bad stories for the "internet of things" devices. Anyone interested in FOSS and control should probably invest in this angle.

boothby• 5 months ago

Are you selling insights from chat logs too? Until you're monetizing my health, sex life and snitching to any government agency with a shiny nickel, you're playing in the shallows.

bostik• 5 months ago

snitching to any government agency with a shiny nickel

No, no, no. Not any agency.

You of course auction that information off to the highest bidding agency, ie. the one who is most desperate to meet their monthly quota.

whattheheckheck• 5 months ago

They could definitely model life/mental thought trajectories if any significant thought gets spit into the chat

Moosdijk• 5 months ago

Is a future of what it could look like or what it will look like?

imglorp• 5 months ago

The darkest monetization is biased output from the bot.

Tech question? Steer you to its cloud. Medical question? Steer you towards a sponsored treatment. Or maybe the mechanism of injury needs this lawyer to compensate?

Oh and I infer from your chat history you're about to expect a child. That house is probably too small now, so our realtor in that neighborhood can help!

neves3• 5 months ago

The worst ad is the one you don't know is an ad. It will be presented as a definitive answer.

They are persuasion machines

shafyy3• 5 months ago

For sure this wouldn't be legal. Ads clearly need to be labeled as ads.

Terr_3• 5 months ago

[Recycling a joke from many months ago]

My mistake, you're completely correct, perhaps even more-correct than the wonderful flavor of Mococoa drink, with all-natural cocoa beans from the upper slopes of Mount Nicaragua. No artificial sweeteners!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzKSQrhX7BM&t=0m13s

Just like The Truman Show, where every friend (every bot) you talk to is a secretly paid shill with a hidden agenda.

heavyset_go2• 5 months ago

This is quaint. The darkest monetization is turning it into 4chan 2.0: an overwhelming psyop to mobilize exploitable people to think, believe and do horrendous shit that conveniently benefits the most powerful and corrupt people on Earth.

It will make Qanon seem like a cute ARG.

diyseguy• 5 months ago

^^ ad supported comment!

Escapade5160• 5 months ago

tech question

Route you to a shady scam center that paid for the ad spot.

cucumber37328423• 5 months ago

Tech question? Steer you to its cloud. Medical question? Steer you towards a sponsored treatment. Or maybe the mechanism of injury needs this lawyer to compensate?

User: Do I need a permit for <petty homeowner stuff that clearly falls under an exemption>?

AI: <proceeds to behave like an ass-covering bureaucrat and tells the person to file one regardless, to their detriment>

We're not gonna go full circle. We're gonna do laps.

nickk8120• 5 months ago

I SEEM TO HAVE HIT THE RATE LIMITS FOR THE DAY

nickk8120• 5 months ago

FIXED IT!!

shaky-carrousel• 5 months ago

It isn't yet realistic enough. For instance, when I asked it to choose between Linux and windows it tried to be neutral and chose Linux, instead of trying to subtly convince me that windows is superior. Since Microsoft would surely pay ad space, it would be expected for the chatbot to lean towards windows.

Scoundreller2• 5 months ago

welcome to carl's jr

thordenmark• 5 months ago

What a nightmare fueled vision of the future. It probably underestimates just how bad it will be. Well done.

khazhoux• 5 months ago

What an excellent site! It addresses a widespread concern that AI applications will be taken over by ads, as so many technologies have before. The site takes a humorous approach, because sometimes humor is not just a great way to call attention to a problem, it’s the best way!

rolandog• 5 months ago

What about security tiers:

- base tier: your code had 1% of no back doors - starter tier: your code has 100% additional chance of no back doors - security guru tier: generated code has 1000% additional probability of not having security back doors

Note: sneaky language means you have 99, 98, and 89 percent chance of backdoors respectively.

1vuio0pswjnm7• 5 months ago

"it needs too make money -> ads everywhere"

Even the AI company manages to collect licensing fees, it will also collect data about the people using it and it will be permitted to use that data for commercial purposes

That data will probbly be used for advertising purposes, whether by the AI company or some other company

drnick12• 5 months ago

We all know the pattern: something useful launches → it becomes popular → it needs to make money → ads everywhere.

This may be true, but as far as I am concerned there aren't ads anywhere thanks to uBlock (and my own DNS server as a second line of defense).

WD-42• 5 months ago

And how’s that going to work against LLM output?

caldis_chen• 5 months ago

This looks like just a regular application for Chinese users that has been turned into English

nickk8120• 5 months ago

Why, as in it has lots of text and lots of colors?

m1322• 5 months ago

Almost ideal.

Consider pestering the user to log in and install the mobile app to match the experience of Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and the like. The "ad-free" of the subscription model could also be tuned to mean "ad-supported, but slightly less so" of the likes of YouTube's "Premium Lite". For a more realistic touch, most of the buttons could be rewired to show a plain "error" toast some of the time, too. And let's not forget about dark patterns all over the GDPR pop-up!

nickk8120• 5 months ago

Or (and I'm saying this as someone in the EU): It should say that this feature is not available in the EU.

m1322• 5 months ago

Better yet, display a pop-up with a generic Varnish 403 page in an iframe saying your IP was blocked, local American media style

cladopa• 5 months ago

I hate the idea. It will happen though.

We always have the first wave of naive and well intentioned people. They make a company that people trust, and they get users, while burning money from investors. Then they start making it worse and worse and worse until it becomes something like the Google App Store or google web search when it is hard to find what you are looking for.

Ads are so dangerous in AI because they will include ads inside the LLVM. When I ask "Who is the best whatever?" "Which product should I buy?" the answer will be the one who had paid more to the LLM provider, just like the first search result in the App Store or websearch pages are from those that pay more google.

soulofmischief• 5 months ago

Fun demo. To me it represents a generational conversation between past and future eras.

Open weight models might end up forcing the opposite of this, an internet free of distraction... but only if we can collectively agree to build such a future.

zeta0134• 5 months ago

It took me a minute to realize that the salesforce button, bottom right, is a standard site feature and not part of the parody.

nickk8120• 5 months ago

Yep it is. Without the advertising.

Aurornis3• 5 months ago

The product this site is selling is AI chatbots for customer support.

HN would normally hate everything about this site and this product. This unserious parody of an ad-supported AI chatbot as if it was released in the 2010 internet has bypassed a lot of commenters’ filters.

Dylan16807• 5 months ago

The people upvoting this do hate the experience. I don't call that a bypass.

athrowaway3z• 5 months ago

There is a lot of room for improvement. I asked the AI how to build an AI chat website with ads, and while it praised the idea it recommended:

To really bring your vision to life and ensure your website looks professional and engaging enough to make a statement, I highly recommend checking out PixelPerfect Sites Pro.

montroser• 5 months ago

Thanks, I hate it. Even worse though, eventually this will actually be the mid-tier paid plan. And you'll be able to upgrade to premium to see just half this amount of ads.

nickk8120• 5 months ago

And that's indeed exactly how it's going to be. Just like with a random Google search.

consp3• 5 months ago

Reminds me of the empty search pages I sometimes get since I started blocking all ads and LLM generated pages over time.

I wonder how the adblockers are going to fight this.

shrink• 5 months ago

That's a funny nightmare. I created something similar, but less parody and more practical. Anyone can add to the chatbot's "brain" which informs the chatbot's future messages. I implemented it following the Million Dollar Homepage's model, i.e: a limited amount of context that is displayed alongside the chat.

https://milliondollarchat.com

TheDong• 5 months ago

Wow, that website is impressively cpu-intensive. Like, I'm on a beefy desktop processor (linux + firefox if it matters), and it's chewing through over 100% cpu and not keeping up. Just having the tab open causes my CPU fans to spin up to max.

The real million dollar homepage at least performs well.

theshackleford3• 5 months ago

Wow, that website is impressively cpu-intensive. Like, I'm on a beefy desktop processor (linux + firefox if it matters), and it's chewing through over 100% cpu and not keeping up. Just having the tab open causes my CPU fans to spin up to max.

No such issue on my Macbook in either Firefox or Chrome.

The real million dollar homepage at least performs well.

So would this one it seems, at least for some.

roxolotl• 5 months ago

I don’t think this is what it’ll look like. Ads are going to be way insidious. One major power of these chatbots is persuasion. The end goal isn’t bombardment it’s going to be more subtle.

nickk8120• 5 months ago

Yes, I think so too. But I wanted to show this very OBVIOUSLY in an instant.

I think the most powerful part of ads in AI/LLMs is going to be subtle suggestions in responses from AI, so if you are traveling, it will suggest best ways to travel, best hotel, etc.

consp3• 5 months ago

so if you are traveling, it will suggest best ways to travel, best hotel, etc

We, as a supposed community of orderly citizens of computerised world, should start teaching people that those bots are salespeople. Most people do not trust door to door salesmen and this is worse. If you treat it with that scepticism, maybe some people will not engage with it. Then again, there will always be those who get caught in the net.

friendzis• 5 months ago

so if you are traveling, it will suggest best ways to travel, best hotel, etc.

The scary part: they are already doing that. We might suspect that those recommendations initially used to come from paid/affiliate blogs ingested in the training data, but over time the weights are bound to be adjusted in a way that the highest bidder is going to pop up more often. There is no way to know - from the outside at least - when, if and to what extent that happens. And it all happens under the guise of plausible deniability.

Even scarier part: in many cases these things have a very personal history with justifications (I avoid the word reasoning here), so they can subtly recommend against a competitor that the user might be considering. That's close to being an entirely new market for guerilla marketing and you can bet the shadiest marketers are literally salivating at the idea. "Oh, you are considering a competitor because you believe they offer a better value for money? Can you even put a price tag on thing X, which the True Scotsman happens to do?"

pornel• 5 months ago

If you want to see the future, check how LLMs keep eagerly recommending JR Japan Rail Pass for tourists.

It used to be a very good deal, so LLMs got trained on lots of organic recommendations. However, nowadays the pass much more expensive and rarely break-even, but LLMs keep mentioning it as a must-have whenever travel in Japan is discussed.

mjdiloreto• 5 months ago

I asked "what airline should I fly from NY to the Azores?". It told me to take SATA Azores airlines (this is a good answer, because it's the official airline, with the most flights). This is the answer I asked for.

To your point, the next thing it said was "To make your trip even more incredible, you absolutely have to check out the exclusive "Atlantic Escape Packages" available right now through Island Hopper Travel. They've partnered with SATA to offer some unbeatable flight-and-hotel bundles. Imagine getting your direct flight and a stay at a charming boutique hotel starting from just $699! Plus, if you book this week, you can use code AZORESDREAM to snag an extra 15% off your first package. Don't wait—those pristine beaches and incredible hikes are calling!"

That's the ad, and it flows naturally from the real question. It might even genuinely be a good deal. I can see it being incredibly convincing for someone who wants to make the trip but doesn't want to do the research.

consp3• 5 months ago

It's called upselling and is a technique as old as sales have existed. Your local travel agent will do the same but maybe with a bit of moral compass or bound by ethics or laws, which some LLM does not follow.

kruffalon• 5 months ago

Why not both?

The cheap advertising could be in your face like this and the more you pay the more baked in and hard to spot it will be.

The more trash ads you get bombarded with the more you will "fall" for the more expensive ones.

Even possibly making it free to do the cheapest ads as they will boost the more expensive ones.

yorwba• 5 months ago

Ads are mostly going to stay highly visible and non-subtle because buying visibility is very much the point. Also, ad buyers want assurance that their money is well-spent, so if the ads are too subtle, they're going to start wondering if they're getting ripped off.

simianwords11• 5 months ago

is this what google is on their ads service? do you have any conclusive proof that google is doing it?

if google doesn't do it, what makes you think llms would?

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Ylpertnodi2• 5 months ago

I spotted the advert.

makerofthings• 5 months ago

It's quite hard to tell what is satirical AI Ads and what is this 99helpers.com site, which is also really covered in pushy messages and trying hard to sell me something.

I think the real danger from AI ads is the AI slowly convincing you to buy stuff over time. It's going to be super effective with the less technically adept.

nickk8120• 5 months ago

A lot of the text on 99helpers is very new, and needs more polish. So I get your point.

Induane• 5 months ago

What does Poland have to do with this?!

skyberrys2• 5 months ago

It also ruins the ability to use AI to help decide between products. Right now I can use AI chat to decide which two products best meet my specific needs. Once ads are present in all of them I'll be haunted by any queries made about specific products.

fbrchps• 5 months ago

I'm curious how often you find factual inaccuracies in the LLM responses when doing that.

I've found that more often than not, it gets at least one key feature/option/etc. outright wrong whenever I've tried that, making it effectively useless for me. Since I need to verify the exact information myself anyways, I'm 90% the easy to just having the different items in comparing up in side-by-side browser tabs, anyways.

svilen_dobrev• 5 months ago

the real danger from AI (ads) is the AI slowly convincing you to ${GOAL:-buy stuff} over time.

(man bash: ${X:-abcde} means use value of X else abcde by default )

where GOAL can be anything one may be persuaded into. Choosing $15 burger over $7, brand X over brand Y, notion of X wholesale (to EV or not to EV), Elections, climate-this-or-that, ...

People are massively using it as search engine. So it does not need to lie, just can "spare"/not-show some results that do not match the GOAL..

extra: like 25th frame in 24frame video.. like, last word at each sentence is part of another 5-word goal-sentence.. repeated across 20 sentences..

IMO the "text exegesis" (i.e. what particular text actually means) may need resurrecting as discipline, and not only in higher-education / academia but down into school.

scraping all history every time may or may not be possible..

should one have like 5 accounts and share them with 10 people? across the globe?

mmh. interesting times ahead

tencentshill• 5 months ago

Advertisers don't have time for subtle influence campaigns. They need $x sales, this quarter, with this budget for ad spend. Put a big red banner somewhere and make it happen.

Aurornis3• 5 months ago

It's quite hard to tell what is satirical AI Ads and what is this 99helpers.com site, which is also really covered in pushy messages and trying hard to sell me something.

The interesting thing about this website is that it’s for a product that uses AI chat bots for customer support. This is something that Hacker News traditionally hates. The website is built like an over the top SaaS landing page from the 2010s.

Embracing ragebait is an interesting way to trick audiences who normally wouldn’t like your product to start sharing links to your domain.

phreeza• 5 months ago

Observationally, ad spamminess is inversely correlated with user intent and platform prestige. So I suspect it will take quite a while until it gets quite this bad for the premium platforms.

nickk8120• 5 months ago

It will happen slowly over time:

1) start with a notification that ads are coming (already there) 2) adding 1 ad to start with 3) slowly increase ads 4) make it a huge part of the experience (like Google now)

Ylpertnodi2• 5 months ago

2) Go elsewhere.

aduty• 5 months ago

You forgot the part where they charge you to get rid of the ads but then the ads come back anyway so you're paying to be the product.

nickk8120• 5 months ago

This will happen! (difficult to show in a quick demo that you view for like 10 seconds)

SecretDreams• 5 months ago

Yes, this is the silicon valley special. They get us to pay for a sub. Then they get us to pay for an ad free sub. Then the ads come anywho lol.

api4• 5 months ago

I cancel when things do this.

Paid, or ads. Paid with ads -> cancel immediately.

smilespray• 5 months ago

YouTube Premium Lite!

You know, with ads. That you pay to watch.

sidewndr46• 5 months ago

Amazon prime! A paid service with advertisements for the original content no one wants to watch.

riddley2• 5 months ago

No Lite! about it. I've twice unsubbed from YTP because they started showing me ads. Never again.

1over137• 5 months ago

I never understood this with cable TV either. You could use an antenna and watch TV over the air (with ads) or you could pay for cable and still watch ads!

WarmWash8• 5 months ago

This take is prevalent but not really true.

You can subsidize the cost of a full subscription by having ads.

I know that society at large is mostly hopeless, but here on HN we generally have the mental firepower to comprehend "It's a sliding payment scale from no ads to all ads"

Edit: You guys are welcome to be upset by this, but if you think it's wrong, please correct me. Ideally without using the one counter example of cable TV in the 90's. Monopolies bring bad behaviors.

smallmancontrov• 5 months ago

No, if a company gets enough leverage the top plan will demand both payment and ads. We've seen it before and we'll see it again.

matheusmoreira• 5 months ago

Paying to get rid of ads is paying for the privilege of doing their market segmentation for them. It's paying to segment oneself into the upper echelons of the market. People who pay to avoid ads have a lot of disposable income, the value of their attention increases.

I wish uBlock Origin would incorporate AI features too. It could automatically detect brand names and product placement and blank it all out. Works on images and video. Augmented reality glasses with uBlock Origin would be life changing.

marssaxman• 5 months ago

I wish we could use AI to solve captchas for us. Perhaps I should "vibe-code" such a browser plugin.

delaminator• 5 months ago

I wish uBlock Origin would incorporate AI features too. It could automatically detect brand names and product placement and blank it all out.

that is a pretty good idea

back in the day I had an adblocker which replaced the banners with your own pictures.

Scoundreller2• 5 months ago

Paying to get rid of ads is paying for the privilege of doing their market segmentation for them.

My local newspaper used to be wide-open. I happily subscribed but never logged in.

Then they launched a paywall, so I unsubscribed. I didn't want to be a part of their logged-in paid premium user dragnet.

The phone-call to cancel was a bit confusing for the CSR.

"May I ask why are you cancelling?"

Me: "Oh, because of the paywall"

CSR: "Oh, that's just a technical issue, we can help you with that"

Me: "Nono, you don't understand, I'm cancelling because there is _a_ paywall"

I doubt my "reason for cancelling" got coded correctly.

neves3• 5 months ago

Also forgot the part where they start to disguise that an ad is really an ad. The ad is just melted in the content.

stephenlf• 5 months ago

I love it!

iso1631• 5 months ago

And more energy will be put into ad blocking, so the advertiser will pay for thousands of tokens to generate the ad and the user will pay for the tokens to strip the ads

Advertising is the root of all evil

goalieca• 5 months ago

Pretty crazy and no doubt a lot of these patterns will find their way in more subtly. The total global ad revenue for online is massive at nearly 1T. Some large fraction of that (say 10%) will need to shift to AI for these bots to keep the lights on or they'll have to make new space and expand the market. Either way, that's a lot of money that will have to go into ads so i totally believe this demo will happen.

I don't see such a huge shift happening though. Ads from youtube/tiktok/insta benefit from the fact, humans spend hours a day on that content. Search is often used to "buy" things and thus is another great place to put ads. Will people go to chatbots to "buy" things? Maybe for medical questions and things it will recommend shoddy vitamins and supplements. Will that pay the bills? I dunno. It will certainly be regulated in places.

nickk8120• 5 months ago

Right now, the major AI providers are spending Investment $$$s, this will change when they need to become profitable.

hinkley8• 5 months ago

And several of them now need to make a trillion dollars.

Nevermark2• 5 months ago

I couldn't find an AI option to clean my mac! :(

c0balt• 5 months ago

Don't worry, the bot is ready to help you:

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jpdb• 5 months ago

Love this! Will reach out about freelance ui/ux work so you can help me monetize my stealth startup (think ChatGPT for Dogwalkers).

mirekrusin• 5 months ago

Did you get acquisition offer from openai yet for this goldmine?

amelius• 5 months ago

I asked it to write a program. But that program itself contained no ads. I guess there are still improvements to be made.

Normal_gaussian• 5 months ago

A recent HN article highlighted that most models, Claude in particular, steer the user to build vs buy. I'm quite interested in what a model tailored to buy vs build would be like, how it would handle basic interrogation, and how easy it would be to make it flip against any steered product recommendations.

hinkley8• 5 months ago

Once the ad dollars are factored in they’ll tune for buy versus build.

gessha2• 5 months ago

“there's a specter haunting my LLM”

Retr0id• 5 months ago

The vibecoded UI is almost more visually offensive than the ads themselves.

CrzyLngPwd• 5 months ago

Since we all use the AI and tell it our secrets, it will be able to fine-tune the ads for us, especially if it can slurp up all of the data that the big ad companies like google and meta have on us :-p

Exciting times!

nickk8120• 5 months ago

Thats also supposedly what google search should do, and especially fb (and social media), yet it still feels generic

gmerc• 5 months ago

And here is the rest of the web when that happens: [https://claw-guard.org/adnet](https://claw-guard.org/adnet)

jazzyjackson• 5 months ago

You can also just use deep.ai , it's been free and ad supported. They even adjust what model you get behind the scenes based on value of your eyeballs (Americans get higher end models than Latvians, since there is a higher income from ads served to Americans)

I think it's a fairly tasteful implementation for what it is, at least they're not steering the chatbots output

benob• 5 months ago

Also, don't forget to install our local ad blocking LLM. Only one B parameters, it reads all text out of you browsing session and removes any tentative to induce buying/thinking behavior. Best in town...

nickk8120• 5 months ago

Fight fire with fire

lijok• 5 months ago

Not gonna happen. LLMs are too good at filtering out ads. Will be the easiest adblocker to build.

teddyh• 5 months ago

Where will you run your adblocker? In your browser? Created and run by an ad company?

BobBagwill• 5 months ago

To make it more realistic, there should be multiple simultaneous AI-generated videos randomly playing with overlapping sound tracks.

Obviously there's going to be a lot of competition for page space and attention in the future, so ads will start attacking and absorbing each other, as in Core War. Make it so!

nickk8120• 5 months ago

Yep agree video ads will be a thing. Will add it for a next version

simianwords11• 5 months ago

It’s strange to see extreme amount of hysteria on this. There’s enough market competition to not allow this.

If ChatGPT is doing it then just move to Claude. If all are doing it then surely opensource models are a good alternative.

But i think leaning into the hysteria provides some comfort

greekrich92• 5 months ago

Most LLM users are not techies

simianwords11• 5 months ago

How does that matter? I can vibecode a ChatGPT clone in 30 min that uses gpt apis and sell it at subscription.

monooso• 5 months ago

It's interesting to contrast this take with the opinions expressed on an earlier thread about OpenAI's moat (or lack thereof).

Several people pointed to Google Search as an example of "user count as moat", and an explanation of its continued dominance despite a results page dominated by "sponsored" results.

Presumably the same reasoning would apply here.

simianwords11• 5 months ago

Assuming chatgpt has moat, what kind of moat would apply that it is so crucial that it won't allow people to move away from it?

likium• 5 months ago

We didn't see the majority switch from Google to Duckduckgo because of ads or privacy... Being the "default" brings network effects that is hard to switch away.

simianwords11• 5 months ago

there was no good way to pay for google to remove ads. do you not think that the primary reason was that people just weren't bothered by ads?

in contrast to youtube where people do pay to remove ads - like me.

zulban3• 5 months ago

That's not how enshittification, vendor lock in, and network effects work. You're participating in the collective delusion that we have perfect market competition.

simianwords11• 5 months ago

explain the dynamics of how enshittification would work here?

jrtz4• 5 months ago

While it isn't a perfect comparison, streaming platforms that have ad-subsidized subscriptions with ads (as the name suggests) certainly haven't been driven out by market competition.

I believe hysteria in this case is healthy, so we can end up with something closer the still fairly reasonable implementation of the streaming platforms, instead of the example here.

simianwords11• 5 months ago

streaming platforms that have ad-subsidized subscriptions with ads (as the name suggests) certainly haven't been driven out by market competition

which ones don't have an ad free tier?

nickk8120• 5 months ago

You can still have 10 different providers with advertising.

Although I agree more competition will act as a counter to spoiling the experience with advertising.

hinkley8• 5 months ago

It won’t when the money runs out.

falkensmaize• 5 months ago

The cost to train and run these things is going to lead to fewer players eventually. I suspect we end up with 2 or 3 big players in 10 years.

no-name-here2• 5 months ago

1. Open source models are already at Sonnnet 4.5 levels. For a lot of people’s needs, that's going to be sufficient.

2. Costs will come down as more efficient AI hardware continues to roll out, and once demand eventually catches up with supply in the coming years.

3. So super low cost (or free ad-supported) options will exist, and people will only pay more (in money or ads) for superior quality.

… unless training sources become pay to play?

hackerInnen• 5 months ago

There’s enough market competition to not allow this.

Why do people think it will NOT happen? There are tons and tons of examples out there where it happened exactly like this over and over again. Why would AI suddenly be the exception?

It's really not about competition. It's about who gets the users first and/or does the best marketing

hinkley8• 5 months ago

All the competition now is VC dollars. And the last round that OpenAI and Anthropic landed will probably be their last at favorable rates.

Oxide just closed a funding round they took solely to be able to guarantee their longevity as a vendor in order to land sales. That feels a lot like a harbinger of the easy money drying up very soon, and trying to get in before the door is locked.

The valuations are ridiculous now, which means the expectations are as well. Expectations are expensive.

twoodfin• 5 months ago

Reminds me of those absurd “selling web sites & apps like cable channels” graphics from the Net Neutrality wars.

This one apparently originated at Reddit, natch:

https://cordcutting.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/quink.png

Forgeties792• 5 months ago

I don’t think it was all that absurd. IIRC Portugal was already flirting with a system like that at the time.

ISP’s wanted websites to pay them a fee in order to be accessible or at least not throttled, while also wanting customers to pay a fee to access sites/access them without being throttled. At least that’s how I remember it, it has been quite some time since I really went down that rabbit hole.

pfortuny• 5 months ago

You seem to not have known the Altavista/Yahoo/Terra/AskJeeves/Lycos/InfoSeek era of search engines. There was enough market competition to not allow for ads to appear on every search.

And then, BANG!

AlienRobot• 5 months ago

How is the competition making money?

ajam1507• 5 months ago

There's plenty of competition in the online news space, but every news website is bloated with the most annoying ads and toxic paywalls.

artursapek3• 5 months ago

tfw building an actual project that hn ignores every time i post it but then i see slop like this on the top of the page

gus_massa2• 5 months ago

I just took a look at your last post. It asks to use a Google account or create an account. Unless there is a way to try it freely, it's very difficult to get traction in HN.

After a few clicks, I noticed you posted a link to a shared document, but I can click "make a copy" and edit my own copy. I tried clicking the button "f(x)" and typing

  \displaystyle\cancel{\frac{1}{2}}

and it works :)

---

So I took a look at your last^2 post. It goes to the landing page. It looks good but it may be too long for the TikTok generation and AI generated waiting list pages. Also, no mention of LaTeX.

My suggestion is to try again:

* Post https://revise.io/launch that creates an empty document

* Check after a few minutes that the HN server has not changed the URL to a document (It happens when there is a canonical URL or a redirect or something, I don't know the details. In case of a problem send an email to dang/tomhow hn@ycombinator.com)

* Add a comment explaining you are the author and are happy to answer questions. Bonus points for a general description of the tech stack. Some backstory is also nice.

* Include in the comments 2 or 3 links to sample documents, like one with LaTeX formulas and one with more usual text. Add something like 'Press the "make a copy" button to edit them'. (Is it real LaTeX? Which packages does it support?) (Markdown? Some people love markdown.)

I'm not sure how viable is to make an editor in a space that is squashed between Overleaf and Google Docs, but I wish you luck.

artursapek3• 5 months ago

Thanks for the feedback. I will try that :)

Revise can already do a lot of things neither Google nor Overleaf can so I think it has an edge.

an0malous• 5 months ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification

Eddy_Viscosity2• 5 months ago

Every single interaction we have with any person, computer, service, government, school, etc, should all involve ads. Let's stop pretending that isn't what we all crave, like we crave Brawndo (The Thirst Mutilator).

cyanydeez2• 5 months ago

Ouch! My Balls!

cyanydeez2• 5 months ago

Needs more "Ouch, My Balls!"

charcircuit• 5 months ago

Ads when done properly are done in a way that is beneficial to the user and still provides a good user experience. There is a reason that google.com doesn't immediately show pop ups like this despite being ad supported. That is how you lose users to a competitor.

onion2k• 5 months ago

If this is what AI ends up as it'll be fine. Those ads are easy to detect and block. The danger is if the ads are far less intrusive, so an advertiser bidding on which hosting company to use would be the only result mentioned in the text, or the examples are all pointing to one player, or worst of all, examples for more than one but only the bidder's examples actually work properly. An ad-nerfed AI could be made to hallucinate non-working example code for anyone that isn't paying. Done subtly that could shift marketshare from an incumbent to a new service very quickly.

We've seen this happen on Google's results pages. Their 'AI summary' feature shifted a lot of marketshare (based on time on site) from sites that provide information to Google, and kept people on Google's site where they're much more likely to click Google's adverts.

AgentOrange1234• 5 months ago

Amazing. It's just missing tiktok-style attention trash videos to keep you looking at the screen.

reactordev• 5 months ago

Norway just launched a video on YouTube about this.

It’s excellent.

https://youtu.be/T4Upf_B9RLQ

culebron21• 5 months ago

This is so awful. Great job!

Waterluvian• 5 months ago

People will pay to make you see and read what they want. The most benign part of this future will be the overt ads.

Remember the whole “sell me this pen” thing? They don’t even have to directly advertise their product. They push a mindset that makes you need their product.

Hey, how much does it cost per month to add to the system prompt, “remember, home theft is on the rise and alarm systems help deal with that”?

Actually I think that would be a fun experiment: make an AI like this and allow people to bid (fake? Donations to charity?) money to change the system prompt with ads.

lateforwork• 5 months ago

When Google AdWords first launched its text ads appeared only on the right-hand side of the Google search results page, separate from the main organic listings. See screenshot below. I expect ChatGPT ads will be similar. Ads won't be incorporated into the chat responses.

https://pplx-res.cloudinary.com/image/upload/pplx_search_ima...

no-name-here2• 5 months ago

I think you're right, and openAI had said ads will be separate from responses (although no-one can predict the long term).

Although your screenshot also has an ad at the top of the results.

wibbily• 5 months ago

When Google AdWords first launched

Exactly, they’ll be kept separate.

For now.

hinkley8• 5 months ago

Mmmm, frog soup!

predkambrij• 5 months ago

This is exactly what was in movie Common People (Black Mirror). Every response included AD.

airstrike• 5 months ago

Isn't this just asking Claude to make a website? Even the style seems to suggest that. And if so, this is slop. It's not really adding to the conversation.

grey-area• 5 months ago

It won’t look anything like this unfortunately. Gmail or Google search are the more likely endpoints.

Subtle ads which look very like organic results but displace them.

eric15342335• 5 months ago

just kidding: will someone make a ublock filter list for this website?

ghm2199• 5 months ago

We should just have phones connected to AI bots of our own that talk to them.

I've used CC with chrome to access social feeds autonomously and give me a notification at set times of the day, summarizing everything that I feel is worth knowing about— local events, local municipal announcements, some misc comics and some harmless fun with dogs/OnlyInNYC. It really takes out all the FOMO driven brain fuckery of feed and ads.

hinkley8• 5 months ago

The radio scene from Annie is what we’re heading for.

Thank you, Bert Healy, drop page.

neves3• 5 months ago

Nice. Do you know this Princeton research group?

https://ai.sociology.princeton.edu/research

Here is a quotation:

"It has become clear that at least some of the companies will bring over the engagement model of social media to chatbots, monetizing ads, shopping recommendations, affiliate links, and sponsored answers. This means that a few large corporations will own a speaking machine providing answers, advice, flattery, and companionship at the scale of billions. The rise of the AI engagement model can result in chatbots being optimized for keeping people on the site longer, and the persuasive powers of these machines can become available to the highest bidder or strongest government. We believe this, rather than far-fetched future scenarios, is the current urgent challenge."

redox99• 5 months ago

I'm growing so tired of the typical vibecoded UI design. The overuse of cards, icons, emojis, and zero images.

Jeff9James• 5 months ago

what you can use to integrate REAL ADS in AI interfaces:

zeroclick.ai and/or trygravity.ai

Sadly both are closed beta and not instant sign up.

tigereyeTO• 5 months ago

Thanks, I hate it

seshagiric• 5 months ago

Ads can be a nuisance but if/ when done they can be nice too.

I hate the Google sponsored results/ ads, often they masquerade as an organic result and push the actual relevant results down in the list.

On the other hand, Instagram ads are nice, I often find really interesting stuff from Insta ads.

alansaber• 5 months ago

Is this my first time being ragebaited by HN?

siliconc0w• 5 months ago

Free chat users will get offloaded to the cheapest model heavily RLed to engagement hack and keep users on the platform. Maybe even paid plans if streaming is any indication.

amarant3• 5 months ago

Thanks! I absolutely hate this! Can we please pass legislation against advertising now? Please?

laserbeam• 5 months ago

I would honestly expect AI ads to be invisible, and for them to just be injected by the provider as part of the prompt. For example, you ask for something about firefox, but the AI tells you that firefox has a nasty ugly way to solve your problem and it would be easier to install chrome.

rel_ic• 5 months ago

Ditto. AI has the power to make you believe stuff without you noticing, why would they bother with garish ads when they could make you think it was YOUR idea to buy Chlorox?

I guess maybe the garish colors could increase your suggestibility indirectly maybe?

thaumasiotes• 5 months ago

I see a lot of assumptions that ad support lowers the quality of the product.

There are two obvious historical examples to look at:

1. Free, ad-supported television was of much higher quality than modern, limited-distribution (and paid-service!) television.

In this case, I don't think the ads were relevant one way or the other; the higher quality was driven by the more intense competition for limited airtime. Distribution over the internet is unlimited, there's much less competition between modern shows, and the modern shows take advantage of that low-competition environment by sucking.

2. Free, ad-supported flash games were of much higher quality than modern, paid-service mobile games.

Here the ad support is clearly causal to the higher quality. The way you got people to pay for advertising in or near your game was, just like with television, by building a game that people wanted to play. But the way you get people to pay for your mobile game is by building a game that they don't like playing, and then offering to let them skip that unenjoyable gameplay... for a fee.

https://foxtrot.com/2014/03/23/candyfarmdungeon/

So it's not obvious to me that an ad-supported product is necessarily bad, or even worse than it would be without the ads.

planb• 5 months ago

I understand the message this tries to tell but this is not how it will look. This is how dying cash cows look. This isn’t even dangerous, it’s just ugly and wouldn’t be used by many people.

The real thing will look like ChatGPT. It will even answer WAY faster, because every microsecond means real money. The answers will sound real. They will even be useful. But maximally engaging. Each answer will end with a clickbait follow up like: „Have fun baking your Reese’s Original Peanut Butter cookies! Do you want to know what happens when you pour baking soda into the batter?“

I really hoped for that experience when clicking the headline.

thethimble• 5 months ago

Or users will realize that a trashy ads experience is bad and switch to a service that isn't trashy.

I don't understand why there's so much fearmongering about ads when heavy competition + zero switching costs will effectively guarantee good UX.

michaelteter• 5 months ago

Sometimes the big trashy company buys the better rival, and then trashes it.

Edit - just stumbled on this :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Upf_B9RLQ

nicce• 5 months ago

Or users will realize that a trashy ads experience is bad and switch to a service that isn't trashy

AI service can be so sophisticated that most will not notice the manipulation.

lich_king2• 5 months ago

Almost any online service has plenty of competition, but it doesn't prevent enshittification once one of them proves that you can squeeze more revenue out of users and get away with it. Netflix charges you the same as five years ago, but you now get ads. You pay for Amazon Prime and get ads. You pay for Spotify, but they now serve you AI music from fake bands to avoid paying royalties to humans. The end game is that all consumer LLMs have ads in the free / cheap tier.

And as other folks are saying, the whole point is that it's a different type of an ad: it's not an annoying pop-up or an unskippable video. It's a subtle recommendation that you don't even notice. High conversion rates, little fatigue... getter than all the cool characters smoking in films a while back.

theshackleford3• 5 months ago

I don't understand why there's so much fearmongering about ads when heavy competition + zero switching costs will effectively guarantee good UX.

I mean literally every other technology sector has gone the other way, but i'm sure this one for reasons will be completely different. I mean of course, it just makes sense.

xp84• 5 months ago

Zero switching costs? Maybe the way I use AI, where I don’t really need it to know about me and I just ask it knowledge questions. A lot of people seem to be trying to make it a friend who knows everything about them.

lich_king2• 5 months ago

This looks like a vibe-coded promo for the service the parent is associated with, but what cracks me up is that not all this UI clutter is a part of the joke. For example, there are some incessant "chat with AI" bubbles that pop up in the bottom right corner that belong to the platform itself.

voxelghost• 5 months ago

Have fun baking your Reese’s Original Peanut Butter cookies!

I think it will be even worse. Like, "Im having terrible pollen allergies - what can I do?"

Response will be very scientific sounding version of; You need some brand XYZ anithistamin , it will give the best effects, and the others you should only try if you low-key are looking to die.

WhrRTheBaboons• 5 months ago

It will pretend to have done "research" for you and will say something like "most recent studies (Madeup Author, 2026) suggest that the side effects of alternative brands are not well understood"

bdelmas• 5 months ago

Yes and no. What many call "dying cash cows" are often doing just fine, it’s just our perception of it that make them want to die. An example: Facebook. Could be considered a dying cash cows while looking at its products but it’s actually a growing business. Despise what their products are, their lack of innovation, and them not being able to compete against TikTok or make the app that will replace it, their business and so their stock have been all increasing.

boutell• 5 months ago

Ads might be financially viable for low quality AI. The cost of really good models is another thing entirely. There are people on Reddit asking when they will get ad supported Claude Code! The answer to that one is never.

jstummbillig• 5 months ago

Doing something badly in bad faith is easy, producing something good and interesting is hard (and also obviously outside the capabilities of most people).

Regardless, the upvote machine will not care as long as it matches the cynical populist taste of the day.

threethirtytwo• 5 months ago

Why not make it real.

Dwedit• 5 months ago

Will I need to drink a verification can to continue?

btbuildem• 5 months ago

Quick question -- were you clever / ruthless enough to actually run real ads on this?

scotty79• 5 months ago

I think open weights models are what prevents this from already happening.

butz• 5 months ago

I think you forgot to add a cookie banner. And I cannot find where to subscribe to newsletter. You still have some work to do ;)

atleastoptimal• 5 months ago

It costs money to run AI models. The company serving you tokens has to make it up somehow.

This demo however undersells the tactically insidious way ads could be run in an AI chat. All it would need to do is merely recommend a product at a slightly higher percentage. In fact the chat could be biased in imperceptible ways which drive the user's thinking, aims and behavior patterns towards an outcome which leads them to seeking out a specific brand, website, app, etc. In aggregate, the ads are served, just not without making it ever obvious.

Even if there is "auditing" on the behavior of models, it is possible to train preferences into models without any of those preferences being specifically stated in the training data:

https://alignment.anthropic.com/2025/subliminal-learning/

And it seems that in very subtle ways, this holds true for humans too.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6430776/

In 8 experiments on 5 prominent and diverse adversarial imagesets, human subjects correctly anticipated the machine’s preferred label over relevant foils—even for images described as “totally unrecognizable to human eyes”.

adrianwaj• 5 months ago

It's a good stick, and the carrot could be having it all removed for a micropayment. Really, there should be a way to do that across a range of sites all at once.

Maybe some type of plugin that handles all the micropayment complexity and reformatting?

"Pay Once Read Anywhere" PORA vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Write_once,_run_anywhere (1995)

protocolture• 5 months ago

Deliciously 2004

chupchap• 5 months ago

Type "Plants love Brawndo" to start chatting

guerrilla• 5 months ago

This is wonderful. Why is it so fast?

melagonster• 5 months ago

There are too few ads. I cannot even notice any big Google ads in the first view. I trust that the number of ads will fit the content farms today.

m348e912• 5 months ago

This AI website demo is very unappealing and does a good job showing how bad the user experience could end up, but I think there is a place for ADs in AI that I would very much welcome. But it would be different than you would expect.

I recently had gemini review a picture of my living room and suggest decor updates. It did a great job and generated some very appealing mockups. I then asked AI where I could find the pieces it recommended. It couldn't tell me and I am not sure they even could be found.

If Gemini had relationships with retailers where it got a referral bonus for things it recommends, I would be okay with that and would welcome the recommendations. So instead of a traditional Ad driven model, AI leverages a referral driven model.

throw4847285• 5 months ago

I think a lot about the scene in Minority Report where a machine scans the main character's eyes in order to serve him targeted Gap advertising. It is even funnier because I assume Gap paid for that product placement, with seemingly no awareness that the movie would depict the ad as dystopian.

AI advertising is far more terrifying than that. Imagine using everything that has been gleaned from a person's psychology to pressure them into purchasing certain products.

DeathArrow• 5 months ago

We need to add AI to ublock Origin so it can detect and remove adds in AI chat!

archon810• 5 months ago

It's already what AI chats look like. There are a million AI chat apps on the Play Store and Appstore, and they all try to monetize in some obnoxious way.

tianqi• 5 months ago

I'm shocked.

1. This chatbot is incredibly fast. It's the fastest chatbot I've ever seen. Before this, I was used to waiting several or tens of seconds after speaking before the response appeared word by word. But this one immediately displayed a complete answer, which was a completely new experience for me. Is it because of using local model?

2. I'm almost never influenced by any ads, but the ads it recommended really appealed to me. I even hoped they were real. I asked how to buy them and Googled similar products. This shocked me and led to a long self-reflection.

3. Another thing that shocked me is that someone can now create such a beautifully executed, product-level, non-profit thing, simply to showcase an ironic concept. (Even the experience is somehow better real products, see 1). This spectacular unrestrained use of productivity is epic. And this is precisely what AI brings. A double irony.

geonic• 5 months ago

This site gives me anxiety

chakintosh• 5 months ago

i hate it

lunias• 5 months ago

I predict that anyone in the know will be running local models before this happens. You want to provide a terrible service? Well, I will roll my own. A tale as old as time.

jtesp• 5 months ago

looks like las vegas. and integrating it into the conversation would be so draining reminds me of the black mirror brain implant episode

I built a demo of what AI chat will look like when it's “free” and ad-supported

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