Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-01-15/dutch-align-with-us-export-controls-on-some-asml-chip-tools

by ksec • 2 years ago

106 219 2 years ago

sylware4• 2 years ago

Until china is not able to produce state-of-the-art EUV photolitographers, they will be "grounded" to produce old silicon process chips.

belter12• 2 years ago

Or until the US invades Greenland, and will be barred by the EU of ever using ASML machines again ;-)

aurareturn2• 2 years ago

Pretty sure the reason ASML has to comply is because they rely on American suppliers. Without those American suppliers, they wouldn't be able to build their machines.

usrnm2• 2 years ago

The US already threatened to invade the Netherlands not so long ago, worked like a charm. I'm pretty sure your scenario would be resolved just as easily

dragonelite2• 2 years ago

The lithographic light source is US ip being created on US shores. If they do that it will be the last EUV machine ASML will make in the EU.

Hell i would bet ASML will move to US than stay in EU, if the US says move to the US and we will allow you to do business with China again.

Also it looks like China has multiple EUV tracks on going from SSMB to that tin based EUV that ASML works with.

amelius2• 2 years ago

Is EUV the only way? Isn't there a much slower technique with laser engraving, but which they may scale in some other way?

https://www.asianometry.com/p/euv-lithography-but-with-a-fre...

nomercy400• 2 years ago

EUV is all about the laser. To create the small transistors of 4nm for example, either lithography or some other laser tech, you need to be able to shine a pure light on them of small enough wavelength. EUV is the smallest we can create thus far.

jecel• 2 years ago

https://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoimprint-lithography

xbmcuser• 2 years ago

It would be really interesting if in order to compete and not being able to get anywhere with photolithography if they come up with some other material to make processors or something else. Silicon is the thing that has been worked on and billions have been spent on it over decades. Now with chinese government as well private companies spending billions on a break through we might get something out of left field where private companies would not have been willing to invest in. As they say competition/war speeds up innovation.

sylware4• 2 years ago

if if if would would would.

Dude, they found a way, until they did.

Keyframe• 2 years ago

they'd still need know-how what to produce, and that seems to also be the hard part if not way harder.

Synaesthesia2• 2 years ago

USA the parent of the world, grounding unruly teenagers like the PRC.

usrnm2• 2 years ago

And what are ASML and the Netherlands in general getting out of it?

tristanj3• 2 years ago

They don't have a choice. ASML licenses the intellectual property for EUV lithography from the US government. Therefore they follow US export control laws on EUV machines.

belter12• 2 years ago

The US government owns the intellectual property for ASML's EUV lithography.

This is false.

amelius2• 2 years ago

The US government owns

Curious how that happened.

KeplerBoy2• 2 years ago

How did this happen? Why does the US gov own the IP of technology developed in the netherlands by a dutch company?

frodo8sam2• 2 years ago

The supply chain for these machines is heavily dependent on the US and the Netherlands is heavily dependent on US security guarantees, just like the rest of Europe.

michaelt• 2 years ago

The supply chain for these machines is heavily dependent on the US

The supply chain for iPhones is heavily dependent on Chinese manufacturing.

We wouldn't normally expect Tim Cook to kowtow to the Chinese Communist Party, though.

neximo64• 2 years ago

Curious who you think uses these devices and who designs and distributes the chips.

Without the American companies not sure the benefits would be the same to the Netherlands or to ASML.

PeterStuer• 2 years ago

They don't get Nordstreamed.

AndyMcConachie2• 2 years ago

We already got Nordstreamed by Nordstream.

dkjaudyeqooe2• 2 years ago

They get to avoid sanctions and other consequences. It's not meant to be equitable.

But there are still benefits to NL since China is their adversary too.

tmnvdb5• 2 years ago

I don't think those conversations get that far. The Netherlands is one of the most "transatlantic" countries in Europe and values the US/NATO relationship highly. In that sense not much different from Taiwan.

vasco• 2 years ago

Article from 2001: What ASML agreed to do to win U.S. approval of SVG merger

VELDHOVEN, the Netherlands — To win U.S. clearance in the purchase of Silicon Valley Group Inc., officials at ASM Lithography Holding N.V. agreed to a number of restrictions and obligations aimed at protecting lens technology and maintaining operations in the United States. But the Dutch company's CEO today said many of those requirements are compatible with ASML's original goals in buying SVG.
ASML today announced it had finally cleared U.S. review of its planned purchase of San Jose-based SVG about seven months after announcing plans to acquire the lithography supplier for $1.6 billion in stock. Completion of the merger had been stalled for several months because of concerns about U.S. national security and protection of defense-related technologies. The U.S. government agreement now clears the way for ASML to complete its takeover of SVG within the next few weeks, according to officials in Veldhoven (see today’s story).
“Clearly any CEO would like a completely free hand, with no obligations,” said ASML chief executive officer Doug Dunn, during a conference call today following the announcement of the agreement. Dunn said a free hand was “never going to be the case with this particular merger/takeover. The U.S. government took a very strong interest in this because, in their opinion, it very clearly effected national security.”
Topping the list of requirements in the agreement is a promise by ASML to make a “good faith effort” to sell SVG's Tinsley Laboratories subsidiary within six months of completing the acquisition of Silicon Valley Group. Tinsley's lens-polishing technology was one of the major concerns blocking ASML from finishing its purchase of SVG.

The article continues: https://www.eetimes.com/what-asml-agreed-to-do-to-win-u-s-ap...

rtlknb• 2 years ago

I would like to see what happens if Germany imposes export controls on Pfizer 20 years from now because Biontech developed the mrna vaccine sold by Pfizer.

belter12• 2 years ago

From 1999 - https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/

"U.S. Undersecretary of Energy Ernest Moniz said, “if the EUV technology proves viable, ASML has agreed to build a factory in the U.S., similar to its Netherlands facility, as well as to establish an American research and development center. The factory will supply 100 percent of all ASML's sales in the United States.”"

Minoz said ASML has “agreed to help facilitate periodic reviews among the Euclides EUV program members and U.S. manufacturers.” Euclides is a Europe-based research effort supported by the European Community and based primarily at ASML's R&D facilities in Eindhoven. “Collaborative participation on a pre-competitive basis among these leading lithography tool suppliers is the best approach for strengthening the overall technology and assuring its international acceptance,”

65102• 2 years ago

ASML gets to see the Chinese government sink the big money into rendering them obsolete, they get to see their stock implode and to shut down RND. But the Netherlands will get to see ASML pack their bags and leave. This of course besides further unpredictable retaliation from China.

We also love it when our government takes marching orders from the US.

creato• 2 years ago

Don't like it? Don't license the critical tech for your company from the US DOE: https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/

AndyMcConachie2• 2 years ago

Maybe the kid of some ASML exec gets to go to Harvard?

Who knows. In the last batch of negotiations they never made the deal public. These deals get made by elites and the public never learns the details.

skrebbel5• 2 years ago

Maybe the kid of some ASML exec gets to go to Harvard?

FWIW this is not a very common ambition people have here in NL. Besides the implied blatant corruption, which I don't think is the case here, I strongly doubt you can bribe any Dutch executive with something as uncool as a bought Harvard admission.

skrebbel5• 2 years ago

This is just a small country getting strong-armed by the US. You can be as pro NATO, pro US, pro "transatlantic relations" as you can and they'll still screw you over. Seriously I can't wait for the EU to get their shit together so we can stop being such pushovers.

lokar3• 2 years ago

Then be prepared to spend 5%+ of gdp on defense, or become a Russian satellite.

datadeft2• 2 years ago

Not going to happen when the leaders of the EU are largely unelected career burocrats.

duxup3• 2 years ago

I wish the EU / EU nations were more assertive on any number of topics.

More powers involved the better for me even as an American.

cscurmudgeon2• 2 years ago

Wasn't ASML started based on research funded by the US?

In 1997, ASML began studying a shift to using extreme ultraviolet and in 1999 joined a consortium, including Intel and two other U.S. chipmakers, in order to exploit fundamental research conducted by the US Department of Energy. Because the CRADA it operates under is funded by the US taxpayer, licensing must be approved by Congress. It collaborated with the Belgian IMEC and Sematech and turned to Carl Zeiss in Germany for its need of mirrors.[25]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding

Before aiming to not be pushovers, EU should probably study the history of their own companies.

JumpCrisscross7• 2 years ago

This is just a small country getting strong-armed by the US

No, it's not.

It's ASML looking out for its largest customer. It's Amsterdam looking out for its shipping lanes, as well as for its Nine Eyes partner. Washington absolutely strong arms Europe, but it's strategically aligned with the Netherlands.

Like, just think about the guy coming into the White House. What about him screams quiet, behind-the-scenes diplomatic win taker?

throw-the-towel2• 2 years ago

Why don't you see it as giving a concession to your ally?

MangoCoffee• 2 years ago

Maybe this is a wake up call for Europe to take its own defense seriously instead of relying on the US Both Bush and Obama have called for NATO members to increase their military budgets beside Trump. It took Russia invading Ukraine for NATO members to finally take this issue seriously.

The significant geopolitical shake-up of the past few years should serve as a clear warning to Europeans to prioritize their own defense instead of depending on the USA.

harrall• 2 years ago

The technology that makes ASML’s machines possible (EUV lasers) was researched by the US government with taxpayer money and ASML bought the San Diego-based US company that was producing the technology.

openrisk3• 2 years ago

Lots of trips to Silicon Valley to learn the "secrets" of being masters of the digital universe.

Somehow it never leads to anything :-)

itishappy• 2 years ago

They're allowed to export the wafer handling systems (roughly half of their big litho machine) currently manufactured in Wilton Connecticut.

blackeyeblitzar• 2 years ago

Well for one, the EUV technology ASML is known for was licensed to ASML under terms dictated by the US, since it is literally a result of US government funded research.

mitthrowaway2• 2 years ago

I wonder to what extent ASML management looks at Kawasaki Heavy Industries' contracts to build high speed rail in China and says, "that's the outcome we want!"

datadeft2• 2 years ago

We can carry the flag for the US in the war of trying to dominate the planet. I think it is a worthy goal.

yapyap2• 2 years ago

I feel like it’s one of those things where not complying and finding out is not a good option, especially with the disregard and disrespect the US has shown towards the ICC I don’t think doing petty things that inconvenience the Dutch economy would be unthinkable, with the new president I think saying the quiet part out loud, - hell, screaming the quiet part as loud as you can - might be the new norm

mg7946132• 2 years ago

This has been going on long before Trump even thought about going into politics.

There is a reason the US does not recognize the ICC. And we also know they have the plans ready to free any soldier from the Netherlands _if_ we were to arrest a American soldier.

And the US _will_ execute that plan. And the Netherlands _will_ sit back and let it happen.

See, the world is a big schoolyard, and America is tired of shaking people down for protection money and threatens us "to start protecting ourselves".

I don't like Trump, but I can't deny he accelerates events that should have started a while back. Very good for our future, not so much for the US. But that's what they voted for.

impossiblefork6• 2 years ago

I don't think that's true.

There's a reason the law you're talking about only authorizes the president to do it. The lawmakers know that what they by passing the law are threatening is crazy, so they put it in the hands of the president, who they understand will never use it. They make sure there's a strong gate separating them and the other dog, then they bark. They know that actually trying to extract people from the Hague would look something like the Battle of Hostomel on steroids and would permanently and irrevocably damage relations and they would do nothing of the sort.

porridgeraisin• 2 years ago

A lot of the IP in what ASML does is held by KLA, Intel, IBM, etc. So america has quite a lot of say in it.

jnurmine3• 2 years ago

Yes, but their say will only work as long as both parties feel that the other party honors their contractual obligations.

Hearing the inaugural speech of President Trump, I feel that some treaties and contracts might soon be worth less than the paper they were written on, if breaking those somehow gives national benefits in the quest to "make America great again".

That is how Mr. Trump's speech came across to me anyway. Perhaps and hopefully that is untrue, I'm not a native speaker, so perhaps I lost some subtle nuances.

JumpCrisscross7• 2 years ago

what are ASML and the Netherlands in general getting out of it?

Wow, the conspiracy theories in this thread are nuts.

The Netherlands is a port economy and agricultural exporter. The U.S. Navy protects the sea lanes it relies on. The Netherlands have been a reliable and natural American ally because our interests align--particularly when it comes to a war as potentially devastating to international trade as a Pacific conflict.

(Zooming in to ASML, their largest customer is TSMC.)

selimthegrim• 2 years ago

Their intelligence agency might as well be a part of Five Eyes at this point.

barrenko2• 2 years ago

It's an incredibly short-sighted, and might I say, such a European question.

CalRobert• 2 years ago

Well, they're a pretty big employer, and not in the Randstad.

nradov6• 2 years ago

The Netherlands gets to continue purchasing F-35A fighters and participating in the NATO nuclear sharing arrangement. This is the ultimate guarantee of sovereignty which trumps any mere commercial concerns. Quid pro quo.

tonfa4• 2 years ago

The Netherlands gets to continue purchasing F-35A fighters

Is that a benefit? I got the impression some countries are rather pressured by the US to spend their money on US military equipment (instead of alternatives) rather than the reverse.

dbspin• 2 years ago

These export controls seem particularly misguided in light of the role Taiwan's TSMC play in chip design and manufacture. Long term, clearly China is capable of catching up with ASML's tooling - it's an economic necessity that they do so, even if (big assumption) they'll always be X years behind the current process node. Espionage and desperation are a powerful combination. Short term, doesn't this make Taiwan an even more glittering jewel to the CCP?

threeseed3• 2 years ago

they'll always be X years behind the current process node

Which will render the country a technological back-water and affect their ability to build the advanced systems needed to compete in a war for Taiwan.

And given that China would be fighting against a war against West + Japan + South Korea with support from at least a few ASEAN countries they would need to be at the top of their game to have a chance of taking Taiwan.

thefounder• 2 years ago

What makes you think they need the latest technology to win a war? Technology may be an advantage but the wars are dicy.

foooorsyth• 2 years ago

So because China will steal it eventually, we should just give it away now? That’s your argument?

clearly China is capable of catching up with ASML’s tooling

The only thing clear to me is precisely the opposite. Nobody has been able to catch up with ASML, including China. If China is capable of catching up on their own (without espionage), why would Taiwan even matter? Why would export controls on ASML tooling even matter?

They matter because ASML and TSMC are companies built on secret know-how that others can’t replicate. Do we really need to explain on HN that companies are built on secrets?

SllX5• 2 years ago

why would Taiwan even matter?

The CCP has fully subscribed to irredentism and it has popular support in the mainland. Taiwan will never not matter.

But otherwise I agree with the rest of your argument.

shrubble• 2 years ago

The USSR was consistently 10-15 years behind in semiconductor fabrication ability and this did matter. China is closer, but still…

BTW the ASML technology is based in part on research that was funded by the USA; which is why the USA has a say in who gets it.

nradov6• 2 years ago

Taiwan is a jewel that could quickly shatter into dust. There are persistent rumors that the ASML tooling (and other key fab machinery) is rigged for sabotage. If China were to mount a serious invasion attempt then Taiwanese security forces or TSMC employees would wreck the machinery beyond repair. This implicit threat acts as a deterrent against invasion.

Even if China could capture the ASML tooling intact it would only be useful for some reverse engineering. Actual production requires both skilled local employees and ongoing support from headquarters back in the Netherlands.

1oooqooq2• 2 years ago

sounds great for china. pretend invasion, suffer no consequence because never actually invaded, but still destroy the enemy silicon fab advantages.

eumenides12• 2 years ago

To further add to the parent, think about how stupid it is to turn off an money printing machine. China did exactly when it mismanaged Hong Kong. Hong Kong USED to be financial titan.

First, Taiwan sees HK and knows what's up. You don't sleep next to an elephant all your life and not know when they will roll over.

Second, even if Taiwan didn't rig for sabotage AND (big AND) just straight up surrendered (it won't); People will slowly leave, turn over will happen, machines will age out, the right investments will not be made, etc. Taiwan may not shatter (immediately), but it will rust and dull. Look at HK and I believe that is the BEST case scenario for the China.

For Taiwan, semi-conductors represent a poison pill/porcupine defense. But that is all that is, defense/poison. It won't stop China if the leaders decide that it would just eat the consequences. I hope Taiwan can find a creative solution to their woes.

For China, they have to realize they are on a timer. They can't keep "turning off money machines", or "crushing jewels". At some point they are going to run out of "resources" to extract and I hope they figure out how to work with countries in their region instead of antagonizing them. Why? because 1+ billion people will suffer if they don't figure it out.

mg7946132• 2 years ago

No, we don't "allign".

We get pressured until we do what America wants us to do.

fyrn_• 2 years ago

To be fair America funded a lot of the research. You could argue they should't have taken so much US investment though. It's like when founders give to much control of their company away for the sweet VC cash, nothing is free.

int0x293• 2 years ago

They signed an agreement with the US government when they bought an export controlled light source.

TheRealPomax• 2 years ago

No, despite what you might personally feel, ASML and the Dutch government really do align with the US when it comes to the matter of "making sure ASML can keep existing".

codeulike3• 2 years ago

ASML is so interesting. Its like sci-fi that one firm in the Netherlands knows how to make the most complicated machine ever made, and no one else can do it.

And it is arguably the most complicated machine ever made. 50,000 times a second, the EUV lithography machine hits a 25 micron drop of molten tin that is moving at 70 meters per second with two co-ordinated lasers, the first hit to change the shape of the drop of tin in exactly the right way, the second hit to vaporise it, creating Extreme Ultraviolet Light at the right wavelength to etch chip designs onto silicon at "5nm process" sizes. Some labs can cobble together something similar as a proof of concept, but not well enough to make it feasible for mass production of chips.

Video about the light souce - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ge2RcvDlgw

No one else in the world is able to make these machines. If you buy one it costs $150m and gets shipped to you in forty containers on specially adapted planes. Very few firms have the resources/know how to even run the machines - which is what makes TSMC so important.

abdullahkhalids• 2 years ago

While EUV lithography machines are surely a contender, the most complicated machine every made is likely the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). A 27 km tunnel in which protons (with cross section about 10^-28 square meters) collide head on. Hard to imagine this amount of alignment is possible.

sciencesama• 2 years ago

It’s not complex just gigantic, repeated sections. Definitely not downplaying it but definitely euv is damn complex !!

tonfa4• 2 years ago

One differentiator is that it's factory produced (not just a one off)

codeulike3• 2 years ago

True, perhaps if we call EUV Lithography the most complicated fabricator machine that actually makes something. Whereas LHC is a scientific experiment.

bravo333• 2 years ago

It is nothing compared to the EUV machines and not as complicated either and with a utility value much less than even regular DUV machines.

nradov6• 2 years ago

It appears that ASML alone knows the correct rituals to keep the Machine Spirit cooperative.

throwup2382• 2 years ago

EUV technology was developed in partnership with the US Department of Energy which is why the US can implement export controls (it was an explicit condition of original deal with the DoE). A significant part of the “secret sauce” is manufactured in San Diego.

It’s not really “one firm in the Netherlands”, it’s a global collaboration that goes back to the 1990s. Intel was involved from the beginning, they just dropped the ball.

to11mtm• 2 years ago

it’s a global collaboration

Yep, even on the optics side (IIRC Zeiss, Nikon and Samsung are big players in the optical side...)

milleramp• 2 years ago

I saw a working euv laser at TRW in the early 2000's. https://www.laserfocusworld.com/lasers-sources/article/16550...

motaforever2019• 2 years ago

A part of reason No one else can make these machines is because US has tight control on who's allowed to even develop that tech.

tonfa4• 2 years ago

There were 9 manufacturers with access to the initial technology, but only one managed to productionize it iiuc.

wenc2• 2 years ago

ASML seems to strike deep at personal identities: it's the only European player in space dominated by American and Asian companies.

Every time anyone mentions ASML, I see comments of adulation. It's a very human tendency to hero-worship, especially fanboys who only recognize the name but don't understand the history or the ecosystem.

It's useful to remember that ASML didn't outcompete rivals through brilliant innovation in a heated market race. Instead it won mostly by being the last one standing. All the other players dropped out. Nikon and Canon made strategic decisions not to pursue EUV because it was too risky and expensive. ASML, a small Phillips spinoff, couldn't do it alone either. It took two decades and billions of investments backed by Intel and TSMC to keep ASML going before the first breakthrough -- it was a lot of persistence and incrementalism. ASML was essentially a side bet/strategic hedge by Intel, TSMC and Samsung.

(all this is covered on Asianometry)

People associate ASML with the Netherlands, but it would not have been possible without the massive contributions of the Americans, the Taiwanese, the Germans, and the Japanese.

It's like Grigori Perelman and the Poincare conjecture -- he didn't accept the Fields Medal for it because he felt that he just happened to the last person to put the pieces together (he was building on work by Thurston, Hamilton, etc.).

We see ASML as this amazing Dutch company, but we forget all the other players were critical to making this singular company possible (only because it happened to be the only one standing, not because no one else is capable -- this is the great misconception).

codeulike3• 2 years ago

Fair enough, I can see it was a team effort. But its still interesting that all that work has focused on one place without leaking and it now has global strategic importance.

And being the last one standing must mean something - good at negotiating with funders, tenacious, perceived as a good long term bet etc.

ojl• 2 years ago

It seems for some reason that it’s only important to keep these things in mind and mention that it contains American tech, is an international effort, etc, when discussing some successful European company. But when discussing American companies there is never any talk about such things. Why can’t ASML be seen as an amazing Dutch company even if they also use tech from other countries?

impossiblefork6• 2 years ago

The system is Dutch. Any component of anything is always trivial.

If the Dutch want to design a new EUV light source, they can probably find someone to do it. If they want to find someone to grind mirrors to match those from Zeiss, maybe they can find someone who worked on the ESO or similar, and similarly with everything else. Think of it like how the F-35 is a Boeing project, even though many companies make components.

The integrator is the maker, not the component manufacturers.

I don't think the US could have made something like ASML. Baumol effect due to the successful firms, different attitudes, etc. There's after all a reason why the others dropped out.

_fizz_buzz_• 2 years ago

It's useful to remember that ASML didn't outcompete rivals through brilliant innovation in a heated market race. Instead it won mostly by being the last one standing.

They were the last one standing because of their brilliant innovation. It was order of magnitudes harder to get EUV from the lab to an actual working machine than anybody thought in the beginning. There is a reason others gave up.

tmnvdb5• 2 years ago

You’re partly right, but I think you’re downplaying ASML’s achievements, especially when it comes to EUV. The ‘internationalization’ you mentioned was definitely one of the key reasons for their success. They were smart to position themselves as a global system integrator early on, stepping away from the vertical integration that their competitors mostly stuck with. (And let’s not forget, ASML was already a big player before EUV even became a thing.)

That said, this isn’t something unique to ASML. It’s just how global companies operate, especially in hardware. Take Tesla as an example—these companies are inherently multinational. They rely on acquired patents, parts and expertise from around the world, and hire international talent to stay competitive.

As someone else pointed out, it’s interesting how often this comes up in ASML discussions here, especially from American users. Maybe it’s because admitting reliance on another country—particularly those “arrogant Europeans” Americans often feel both superior and insecure about—kind of messes with the U.S. dominance narrative.

trynumber9• 2 years ago

Cymer was the best purchase they ever made. But it also means they're totally beholden to US export controls. That light source is made in San Diego after all.

ghaff• 2 years ago

They were a big customer of a former company I worked for. I had a session at our executive briefing center, and myself and everyone else was just floored and geeking out on their tech.

danparsonson• 2 years ago

The rest of the machine is no less incredible - the EUV light is reflected off a series of mirrors (the largest weighing, IIRC, somewhere in the region of 300kg, and the largest that Zeiss have ever made) onto a mask of the target pattern, which is rapidly shuttling back and forth, onto another series of mirrors, and finally focused onto the wafer stage, which is also moving precisely in step with the mask, to expose the photoresist on a single die which is on the order of 10mm square.

And each wafer goes through multiple cycles of this, so not only does the machine rapidly create features at the nanonmetre scale with incredible accuracy, but again and again in exactly the same place after removing and returning the wafer.

Oh, and the wafer stage is pretty fun too; it uses an electrostatic chuck that induces a charge in the wafer and therefore holds it firmly in place without needing any kind of suction that could distort the wafer.

Promotional fly through video from ASML here: https://youtu.be/h_zgURwr6nA

Asianometry video about the stage: https://youtu.be/1fOA85xtYxs

Another short video about the light source: https://youtu.be/9VDJMivfhGU

rajnathani• 1 year ago

Very few firms have the resources/know how to even run the machines - which is what makes TSMC so important.

I dispute that this is simply what sets TSMC apart. The process of designing transistors and chip "IP" (the term used) such as 2.5D stacking technologies and the like (which is where coordination with EDA companies like Synopsys, Cadence, and etc. comes in) is just one thing. Then to prepare the photomask (I'm sure there are partners, but still), and operate the whole clean room facility around the input and output of wafers and other materials into these ASML/other fabrication machines is another thing.

Synaesthesia2• 2 years ago

Someone want to remind me?, why can't China have these technologies again?

eumenides12• 2 years ago

China has a history of stealing technologies if it can. Fine, but don't expect the world to LET china steal these technologies.

And if China doesn't like it, it can reinvent the wheel. Here is the fun part. I think China can absolutely do so in a technical sense. But I know the people absolutely won't do it, because they don't want it/aren't incentivized to do it.

int0x293• 2 years ago

I regret to inform the various nationalists here this wasn't really developed by one group. ASML signed contracts for research and technology from multiple different countries. The Netherlands isn't being strong armed here. It is having to comply with a heavily negotiated contract that they signed decades ago when they aquired a US based firm using export controlled US DOE research.

Dutch Align with US Export Controls on Some ASML Chip Tools

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