DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/24/nyregion/doordash-tip-policy.html

by mcgwiz • 7 years ago

196 312 7 years ago

koolba2• 7 years ago

“Going forward,” DoorDash’s chief executive, Tony Xu, wrote on Twitter on Tuesday night, “we’re changing our model — the new model will ensure that Dashers’ earnings will increase by the exact amount a customer tips on every order. We’ll have specific details in the coming days.”
Under the policy, which the company adopted in 2017, DoorDash would offer a Dasher a guaranteed minimum amount to do a delivery. If a customer tipped, in most cases a tip paid through the app would go to subsidizing DoorDash’s contribution toward the guarantee, rather than increasing the Dasher’s pay.
For example, if DoorDash guaranteed a worker $7 for a delivery and a customer did not tip, DoorDash would directly pay the worker $7. If the customer tipped $3 via the app, DoorDash would directly pay the worker only $4, then add on the $3 tip so that the worker would still get only $7.

And this is one more reason why I have and will not ever leave a digital tip.

Yes I know how tipping aggregates for wait staff (and I think that’s stupid...) but this is different. These are independent contractors paid to do a job. If they agree to do it for $X then that should come out of the pocket of the company hiring them. Any tip is over the top.

I hope they (DoorDash) get sued by their customers for deception, lose in court, and a precedent gets set to end this nonsense.

paulgb• 7 years ago

I hope they (DoorDash) get sued by their customers for deception, lose in court, and a precedent gets set to end this nonsense.

Unfortunately, this will never happen, because their terms of service includes a binding arbitration clause. (Some of us noticed in time to opt out, but surely not the critical mass needed for a class action.)

User23• 7 years ago

On the other hand it might be straight up wage theft, which is a criminal matter.

Californian drivers should file a claim with the Department of Industrial Relations: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/howtofilewageclaim.htm

elliekelly• 7 years ago

If you managed to opt out then find an attorney to file a class action. Force DoorDash to make the case that you don’t have enough people to get the class certified, don’t do the hard part for them by just assuming it.

ben_jones• 7 years ago

Postmates opens a tipping modal after a delivery that CANNOT BE CLOSED without inputting a tip and clicking submit. You literally have to type 0.00 and click submit to continue to use the app. I grew up in a strong tipping household (both parents worked service jobs) and usually tip very highly, but everyone should have the right not to tip if they don't want to (with no shaming or prodding) and companies should not subsidize their operational costs by dark patterning customers into tipping.... grr.

At the same time I hypocritically am a power user of many "gig economy" apps like uber, ubereats, postmates, etc. so I am contributing to the problem more than most.

rhino3693• 7 years ago

I don't mind tipping, but if I'm paying the delivery guy myself, then what the hell is postmates charging me a delivery fee for?

I have no idea what I'm paying for and who gets what. It's confusing. So i've been just tipping 3 bucks.

altmind• 7 years ago

and lyft tipping dialog does not allow to enter fraction of a dollar. that's all pretty annoying when you have specific rule to tip specific % of the bill and can not do that.

forgtpasswd2• 7 years ago

I simply don't understand tipping before service. I have had multiple occasions where the delivery is either delayed, food items missing, delivery guy calling me and asking me to walk up to him/her because he/she doesn't want to deal with parking etc. But, still expected norm is to pay a tip in advance and hope for good service. And, in case you had a bad experience, well you rewarded the service with a tip in advance anyway.

jessriedel2• 7 years ago

I don't know how what the actual agreement was, but couldn't this be very reasonably structured as a form of insurance/derivative? Like, if I'm a pizza delivery guy, I have some expected stream of tips with a variance. If the total tips I receive in a year is usually in the range $300 - $1000, it may be that I'd much rather have a guaranteed $500 than take the risk, so I might buy insurance from a 3rd party (doesn't have to be my employer), who pays me $500 in exchange for the rights to my tips. This doesn't seem immoral/deceptive to me, and is probably financial equivalent to the DoorDash model.

maxerickson3• 7 years ago

Depends on whether the delivery person has access to the information about the tips and whether they can opt out.

If they don't see the different payouts that come with different customer tips and they can't opt out, it's not very equivalent.

dawnerd• 7 years ago

Yes I know how tipping aggregates for wait staff

Quite a few states require wait staff/others to be paid the full minimum wage before tips: https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

sbr464• 7 years ago

Just a nit, I’m curious how they can guarantee full payout ($7/$7) without mentioning merchant processing fees? Does the company pay those or is it implied that $7 on full payout would actually be $6.80 after fees? I couldn’t see it being sustainable to absorb the extra fee, but if it is withheld, it seems misleading to not mention it.

(Technically, this question could apply to the tipping industry as a whole)

snuxoll2• 7 years ago

DoorDash has surcharges on top of surcharges to cover their costs, and frequently mark up menu price as well. They can eat $0.20.

bluetidepro• 7 years ago

It's interesting to see the new uproar about this change over on r/DoorDash. It's interesting to see a lot of the workers now worried this will actually end up being even less. It seems like they (workers/drivers) got what they wanted, but also didn't.

lovehashbrowns• 7 years ago

Thank you for pointing that out. It was an interesting read. It seems like most of them blame the customers that didn't want to be deceived rather than the company itself and their shitty practices.

amyjess• 7 years ago

My observation about /r/DoorDash is that nobody there is ever happy.

I first checked it out in 2017, shortly after they implemented the current model. The entire subreddit was a massive open revolt of people complaining that they simply can't survive on what the new model pays them. For the record, I went there because I got curious after I had a string of several dashers who were just awful and couldn't follow basic directions. The impression I got is that everyone on the platform with any intelligence either had quit over the changes or was threatening to, leaving only the people who just don't have the skills to get work anywhere else.

I'd look at it every few months or so after that, and one thing pretty common was that people were suggesting that nobody should tip in the app and that everyone should leave a cash tip because DoorDash steals tips.

When the tipping scandal first hit the news (forcing Instacart to change their policies), I checked it out again, and everyone was talking about how finally the media is calling attention to how awful the tipping situation is and again suggesting that nobody ever tip in the app.

And now this. DoorDash is fixing this policy, and the people there are still upset. /r/DoorDash is simply the single unhappiest subreddit I've ever seen that isn't a politics sub or a straight-up hate sub.

My impression using DoorDash, by the way, is that the situation I mentioned above never resolved itself. I have a tendency to use DoorDash because DashPass actually saves me a lot of money (you pay $10/month and get most of your fees taken off on each order above $15... it usually saves me about $5/order, so it pays for itself after two orders a month), but dealing with the drivers is such a colossal headache that ordering something on DoorDash stresses me out each time. I have never had anywhere near the level of problems with drivers on Uber Eats or GrubHub (or Eat24 before them; I still miss that company) that I have with dashers. DoorDash treats its people so poorly that all the good dashers have long since quit, leaving only people who have a marked inability to follow basic directions or instructions. I've found myself ordering from Uber Eats more and more lately, even though I'm paying more, just because the quality of the drivers is so much higher.

ceejayoz• 7 years ago

And now this. DoorDash is fixing this policy, and the people there are still upset.

Likely because they know the "fix" will likely just be a more subtle fucking.

gringoDan3• 7 years ago

This doesn't change anything. DoorDash will lower the base pay of the orders, meaning the total compensation for Dashers will remain the same.

DoorDash has a model for what it considers "fair compensation" for an order. Since the company can see exactly what the customers tip in advance, they'll just subtract the tip amount from their previously calculated "fair compensation" and show that base pay / tip breakdown to the Dashers. DoorDash isn't going to suddenly increase its Dashers' pay by 50%.

If you want to actually compensate the Dashers, tip $0 in the app (raising base pay) and hand them cash at the door. That seems to be the only way to get around this policy.

jakelazaroff3• 7 years ago

Wouldn't that be easy to discover using the same method the NYT used to find this in the first place [1]?

DoorDash offers a guaranteed minimum for each job. For my first order, the guarantee was $6.85 and the customer, a woman in Boerum Hill who answered the door in a colorful bathrobe, tipped $3 via the app. But I still received only $6.85.
Here’s how it works: If the woman in the bathrobe had tipped zero, DoorDash would have paid me the whole $6.85. Because she tipped $3, DoorDash kicked in only $3.85. She was saving DoorDash $3, not tipping me.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/21/nyregion/doordash-ubereat...

gringoDan3• 7 years ago

In that case, DoorDash will guarantee $3.85, knowing full well you'll make $6.85 for the order.

Edit - I'd expect they'll show something like the below

Total pay: $6.85

Guaranteed base pay: $3.85

Tip: $3.00

unreal376• 7 years ago

But that's OK. They should lower the amount that they offer for a delivery to not include the tip. And then drivers will refuse to work for them and they'll be forced to increase it. Supply and demand.

SkyBelow4• 7 years ago

Here’s how it works: If the woman in the bathrobe had tipped zero, DoorDash would have paid me the whole $6.85. Because she tipped $3, DoorDash kicked in only $3.85. She was saving DoorDash $3, not tipping me.

But that is tipping.

A waiter makes $7.25 an hour. If they receive $2 in tips, the business only has to pay them $5.25 for that hour instead. There is a lower limit (around $2, I forget the exact amount), and tipping over that limit goes to the employee, but any tips under that limit effectively go to the company.

hombre_fatal• 7 years ago

But isn't this how almost all tipping already works?

I worked at restaurants where I had to report my tips or share them. If I dipped below minimum wage for the month, the restaurant was supposed to add whatever difference was needed (never saw it happen, btw).

So if DoorDash lowers the base pay, I don't see why anyone should die on DoorDash's hill when the base pay of all restaurants around them is a hilarious $2.15/hour. DoorDash pays a minimum of $1 per delivery no matter the tip.

Before people get too angry at DoorDash, they should realize this is ubiquitous.

We're never going to evolve away from tipping culture if our only trick is to get outraged at one company at a time that makes the mistake of having the spotlight fall on them.

gringoDan3• 7 years ago

Agreed. That being said, everyone knows that waiters/waitresses make their pay from tips. I think that most people had the expectation that delivery drivers were making base pay, and any tips were on top of that - the equivalent of handing the pizza delivery driver a couple of bucks when they get to the door. This was not the case, and certainly not communicated clearly to customers.

pergadad• 7 years ago

Just to clarify that all tipping in the US works like this. The rest of western countries pays a fair wage and then tip is a bonus the waiter gets to keep (or shares with other staff in some contexts), but it's not expected to be part of pay.

skywhopper• 7 years ago

It doesn't have to work like this. We could pay folks a proper wage, and let them also keep their tips. When I was a pizza delivery driver, I got paid an hourly wage that started at minimum wage and increased after certain periods of work experience. In addition I got a delivery fee per order delivered during a shift, and on top of that I got to keep all tips given to me by the customers. So in practice, I was probably making double minimum wage on a moderately busy night. I was aghast that the in-restaurant wait staff got paid a significantly smaller hourly rate and were expected to make it up in tips.

mullingitover5• 7 years ago

Before people get too angry at DoorDash, they should realize this is ubiquitous.

I know it's ubiquitous, I'm just enjoying seeing someone raked over the coals for it and I look forward to the angry mob moving on to everyone else who profits from this scummy practice.

LandoCalrissian2• 7 years ago

Some states don't have a tip credit like Minnesota. They get minimum wage no matter what, plus tips.

throwtipaway5• 7 years ago

This. The only way I can see things changing is to not tip. I know this will anger some people here but I just ordered on grubhub and tipped 0$. Why would I tip more if I already pay 6$ of delivery fee? Also, why would I tip a percentage in general? Can’t a waiter appreciate my 5$ tip without making a face every time like I’ve under tipped them?

If you think this is outrageous, you should consider that many people are like me and waiters get stiffed all the time by us. So every time you’re paying a tip you’re covering for me too. Isn’t this unfair?

scaryclam• 7 years ago

I've worked as an hourly employee at a bar before. This isn't in the US. I was paid minimum wage, before tips as it's not legal to "make up the difference" where I live. If a customer gives a tip, the employee goes home with the tip additional to minimum wage. If an employer decides that I got $50 tips and minimum wage was $40, they don't get to keep my wages, they have to give me $40 and the customer tips bump my days earnings to $90. I find it bizarre and more than a little sad to see a first world country thinking it's OK to skim wages just because customers tipped.

Stasis50012• 7 years ago

It does change something. DoorDash's old policy, weird as it is, reduces variability of daily pay for the Dashers. It literally put a derivative structure onto the Dasher pay that reduces volatility -- the pay was cash plus a call option on the tip. Now they will get cash plus the tip. Obviously DoorDash will tune their base pay, but they can't meet the prior model's mean and variance at the same time. How Dashers balance those two is unclear, but generally people need a higher mean to accept higher variance.

The problem is that the old policy only works if the customers don't understand it, and maybe even seems generally unethical.

ljlolel• 7 years ago

They can offer a "performance"-based weekly "bonus" which would be the difference for under-tipped people. Normalizing the same pay on a weekly (or daily) basis.

rtkwe6• 7 years ago

It was very unethical. Calling something a tip implies a lot in the US and in most other industries the tip legally can't be taken by the employer and compensation has to at least total to the minimum wage.

doctorpangloss• 7 years ago

but they can't meet the prior model's mean and variance at the same time.

They could just like, pay them a monthly wage, like everyone else in the civilized world?

neonate• 7 years ago

What reason do you have for claiming that total compensation will remain the same? The article certainly doesn't say that.

If they did that, it would inevitably be found out and lead to an even bigger scandal. That would be worse than doing nothing.

NullPrefix• 7 years ago

If you want to actually compensate the Dashers, tip $0 in the app (raising base pay) and hand them cash at the door. That seems to be the only way to get around this policy.

I am sorry but we have to let you go, because our customers do not seem to like you.

inimino• 7 years ago

It would show up in their metrics as a particular customer (or percentage of customers) never tipping, not a particular driver never getting tipped.

pravda• 7 years ago

The other advantage of tipping in cash is that all the money goes to the Dasher, the government doesn't get to skim off any of that money.

orvtech• 7 years ago

I'll keep tipping in cash, thank you.

guelo• 7 years ago

I was amazed a few months ago when Instacart managed the uproar over this same practice and DoorDash apparently calculated that Instacart would take the brunt of the outrage and they would be able to keep their heads down and let it blow over without making any changes. That was stupid and it was only a matter of time before the next reporter noticed it and it would blow up again.

The correct evil strategy seems to be what Instacart is doing now which is to make a complicated algorithm so opaque that nobody understands it so it's difficult for it to generate outrage.

CodeWriter23• 7 years ago

With the slippery language about the "model" and the future disclosure of said model, I think DoorDash will do something like you describe. Because it takes fewer words to say "Going forward all Dasher's will earn the guaranteed rate plus any tips".

tolstoshev• 7 years ago

Glad they changed it, but it's pretty damning that this was the model in the first place.

minikites2• 7 years ago

Wage theft is distressingly common. The biggest thieves are businesses (stealing from workers) and not some cat-burglar in a striped shirt:

https://preview.redd.it/grnr8kxbl6zz.jpg?width=960&crop=smar...

https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-fro...

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/11/abuse-by-bosses-comes...

This is why unions and collective bargaining are so important. The power of an individual is almost meaningless versus a business of any size.

overthemoon• 7 years ago

Yes. For every company shamed into sorta kinda doing the right thing, there are so many other less sexy and high profile companies doing the exact same thing. Unions are not perfect, but they're better than nothing.

unreal376• 7 years ago

Unions are not better. This isn't 1888 any more.

They charge the employees a fee every paycheck, but when you need them, they'll do what's in their best interest not yours.

As a teen, I was forced to quit a job (with my union rep beside me) for a made up reason. "Better to quit than to be fired" was his advice. Obviously my "quitting" was part of some bigger plan to save a job of his friend or some other concession the boss made to him.

Unions protect the employees as a whole but not the individuals. They have their own interests that are not always aligned with the employees either.

thrwwy987• 7 years ago

Perhaps what this article talks about should be reframed as actual (literal) theft, like the way a burglar or pickpocket does: same as if an employer broke into your home, found your wallet, and removed $20 from it that a customer had literally handed to you as their gift to you. Literal burglary/theft/etc.

That would frame it in a way that doesn't somehow legitimize it, and would make employers seem, and be, far more criminal after they decide to reach into someone's pocket and steal cash.

SkyBelow4• 7 years ago

Wage theft

Does this qualify as wage theft? Per US tipping laws, this is how tipping normally works.

pluma4• 7 years ago

It's wage theft. That it's legal under US law only means it's institutional.

That is worse.

EDIT: Because some people seem to be unaware: there is no actual crime in US law called "wage theft". It's a term that describes specific behavior and some of that behavior violates certain employment laws and regulations. See the Wikipedia article for the specifics, although it specifies that "tip theft" is actually its own legal complex within "wage theft": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_theft

imgabe2• 7 years ago

Tipping just needs to die. If your business model demands that customers pay your price + 20% to pay your employees a wage they'll accept, then just increase your price by 20% and pay your employees that wage to begin with. Don't lie to customers and tell them the price is 20% lower than it really is when they're expected to add on more.

Phobophobia• 7 years ago

I generally concur. Living in Japan for a month, attending budget and 5-star accommodations and dining, it was very streamlined to have minimal tipping expected [or unexpected].

s_y_n_t_a_x3• 7 years ago

I've lived in Japan, and you notice the lack of tipping culture. Service is a lot worse. Go to any restaurant, you won't get service, refills etc. You have to yell or get it yourself. That's what the service would be like without tips. Servers have no incentive to take care of your table if they get paid the same either way.

I'm fine with that system, as long as it's setup that way. Give me a way to refill my drink etc. But sometimes it's setup where they have to do it, and you're either waiting an hour for a drink or a check.

ronnier• 7 years ago

I think the biggest problem I have with tipping is something I never hear people talk about -- it forces us to pay at the end instead of upfront.

Usually the process goes like this:

0: sit, bring water, give order, wait for food

1: eat

2: wait for the waiter to notice we are done. This can take a long time.

3: they want to pre clean the table, at which we say we are done, bring the check please

4: they drop off the check, if you are lucky, you can hand the card to them then,

5: If not, wait for them to come back to pick up your credit card

6: wait some unknown amount of time for them to bring your card back so you can sign and leave a tip

It's so much easier to pay up front and leave the second you are ready. Sometimes that ritual at the end takes longer than it takes me to eat my food.

vocatus_gate• 7 years ago

I typically request my check immediately upon receiving the food. That way I can leave whenever I'm ready and not sit around waiting.

snuxoll2• 7 years ago

They’re not perfect, but every time I dine at Red Robin I like having the little kiosk at the table so I can pay when I’m ready instead of waiting for the check, the waiter to grab my card, etc. It’s a nice solution when eating with a group that is likely to order additional drinks, etc. over the course of a meal too.

cpeterso• 7 years ago

Paying at the end of the meal allows you to order additional drinks or desserts after your initial order.

everdrive• 7 years ago

It's the introvert's bane. I'm done being at the restaurant, but I can't leave when I choose to.

scarface744• 7 years ago

Many of the mid tier chain restaurants have terminals that allow you to pay at the table.

koala_man2• 7 years ago

it forces us to pay at the end instead of upfront

I've been to plenty of places where you pay up front, and they still ask for tips. I wouldn't expect tipping to factor into this nearly as much as encouraging you to get another drink or dessert without having to get a separate check for it.

eplanit• 7 years ago

Exactly. Personally, this is why I like cafeterias so much, as they eliminate everything except (1) in your list. You not only pay up front (with some you pay as you exit), but you know exactly what you're getting up front, too. Unfortunately, I see very few cafeterias anymore, practically none since I moved to California.

S_A_P2• 7 years ago

In the scenario you describe, I would agree. However, that isn't really a tip. If a service worker provides great service, the option to compensate them for their services should be allowed.(and the inverse for terrible service).

A tip should never go to the business, and if the business is collecting it, it should only go to the tip pool to pay the supporting staff as well.

imgabe2• 7 years ago

I agree it's not really a tip, which should be purely optional. Unfortunately it's not treated that way in most of the US, where "expected tips" are allowed to be treated as a part of the employee's compensation.

The employer/employee wage negotiation should be completely independent of any tips and the employee should be receiving a wage they would be happy with even if they got 0 tips. Any tips should be in addition to that.

WhompingWindows2• 7 years ago

Why do we have a carve-out for certain industries and not others? I provide services of a different kind but I don't get tips. Literally all the arguments for tips should be applied to all service jobs, which is most jobs these days. How does it make sense to have them for a small subset of the US economy, especially given numerous other countries don't tip that subset.

koala_man2• 7 years ago

Would you feel equally comfortable applying the same concept to your own job?

lancesells2• 7 years ago

Amazon Primenow unfortunately does the same thing. I wish that would become a story as well.

miaklesp2• 7 years ago

Just set tip to 0 every time.

Pfhreak2• 7 years ago

And tip in cash.

lancesells2• 7 years ago

While that works for me I'm guessing 95% of the people using Primenow don't know to do that. Amazon is 100x larger than DoorDash and needs to be called out on it.

unreal376• 7 years ago

I think North America really needs to re-evaluate this concept of tips. The rules of what to tip and when are intentionally vague because it's a sensitive subject.

We should move to "fair pay", that includes slightly increased prices, and do away with tips for most services.

It's so common that tips don't mean what the consumer thinks it means. Restaurants and bars that pool tips and share them with all staff.[1] Restaurant owners that try to keep some tips and only pay out a percentage to the staff.[2] Casinos pool tips too so the dealer doesn't get to keep the money you gave him directly.[3]

I get asked for tips at Starbucks. I get asked for tips when I do takeout food from the local restaurant. I get asked for tips at the buffet restaurant. The pizza driver gets a delivery charge AND a tip!

Let's clean it up and make it fair for the servers and the consumers.

[1] https://www.restaurantscanada.org/industry-news/aware-ontari... [2] https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/advice-guy/can-rest... [3] https://www.businessinsider.com/wynn-tip-sharing-2011-6

tashoecraft• 7 years ago

It's all hidden by intention. For example the delivery driver usually doesn't get the delivery charge, so if you don't tip they likely are loosing money to bring you food.

lotsofpulp6• 7 years ago

That's not the customer's problem.

alteria• 7 years ago

The usual explanation for tipping is that the minimum wage for tipped employees is lower than the non-tipped minimum wage (sometimes as low as $2.13).

If you knew everyone was getting paid the minimum wage, would you still tip on a regular basis?

I recently learned that in states like Washington, California, Oregon this is the case [1], and have been tipping less as a result, but still feel slightly bad about it (societal conditioning is strong!).

[1]https://www.minimum-wage.org/tipped

rhino3693• 7 years ago

The usual explanation for tipping is that the minimum wage for tipped employees is lower than the non-tipped minimum wage (sometimes as low as $2.13).

People get the cause and effect backwards on that. The minimum wage is lower because lawmakers knew they were already getting compensated by tips. It's a social custom, not charity.

maxerickson3• 7 years ago

No, that's not the explanation for tipping.

Those reduced minimum wages are justified because the jobs include tipping.

The reason you tip your waiter is (ostensibly) because it creates a direct incentive for better service, by leaving some of the compensation up to the customer.

Let's not have a bunch of replies that ignore my caveat please.

notJim2• 7 years ago

One problem is that the restaurant lobby is surprisingly powerful. In DC, voters approved an initiative eliminating the tipped minimum wage, but the restaurant lobby succeeded in getting the city council to overturn it (after failing to persuade voters against it via lots of astroturfing.)

rhino3693• 7 years ago

The problem is that removal of tipping, pretty much just hurts the employees. Customers will probably pay less. Employers will be a bigger cut of the customers actual spending.

Very few restaurants would pay an hourly wage that is equivalent to what waiters are getting tipped now. So the waiter will just get less. Just look at what non-tipped restaurant workers get paid, not well.

chillacy• 7 years ago

There are restaurants that just tack on a 20% surcharge, do staff get paid less at those establishments?

ilikehurdles2• 7 years ago

The rest of the world's solution is fewer, higher paid, and better trained waiters.

Restaurants in the US are run like a factory assembly line, with every person manning a portion of the line being incentivized to get the table out of the door as fast as possible in order to maximize the amount of scraps they get out of tips. In a fixed system, you might sometimes have to flag down a waiter rather than have your glass endlessly refilled even when you're done drinking, and folks might stop walking by asking (if you're lucky) to take your plates away before you're ready.

If you're a person who travels, count the amount of visible staff at an average German restaurant, and compare that to what you see in the US. It's drastic. Orders of magnitude drastic.

hn_throwaway_992• 7 years ago

Despite how much I agree with you, this is never going to happen, because the real purpose of tips these days is to allow for variable pricing - the "base" price stays low, while people who can afford to tip more often do.

I've seen lots of restaurants implement "no tipping" policies, only to revert back to tipping within a year or two. The reasons:

1. The higher base prices do have a negative impact on sales. 2. The best servers usually want tips, because they can make more at a tipping establishment.

In the past 10/15 years I've changed my attitude around tipping now that pretty much every place I go to "flips around the iPad", asking for a tip. I no longer really think of it as a reward for good service. At the end of the day, I can't imagine trying to survive in a major city on barista wages, and I can afford it, so I tip.

WhompingWindows2• 7 years ago

This is just naive thinking, that there is some grand purpose behind the laws of the USA. Step back, we all know it's because money is power in this country. Restaurant industries will kill any change that forces them to pay their employees a living wage.

You think this is based on logic and sensibility? That's not how government works in the USA. The null hypothesis is that capitalism rules; all else, democracy and logic and truth, come a distant second.

jwr• 7 years ago

This approach makes no sense to me. It seems the "base" prices are fiction, just like the airline fares have become recently. They do not correspond to reality and do not allow for a sustainable business.

Choosing where you will buy based on those fictional "base" prices and then tipping just supports that world which is detached from reality.

If people stopped tipping, eventually things would right themselves: workers would stop working for establishments that do not pay enough, businesses would need to raise prices, people would need to start accepting the realistic pricing.

moate• 7 years ago

This is why you need to change it across the board, all at once. If joe the asshole can keep charging his customers "less" by hiding the real cost of labor in his tip column, then bill the coolguy looks like he's being an asshole by including that cost in the price of the food.

Don't even get me started on the idea that FOH employees are often making 2 or 3X what the kitchen staff is bringing home. Sure the servers want the tips, but why wouldn't cooks want that money to be in the pool of money that can be allocated to them as well (since most servers aren't required to tip the back of house, and any money that isn't guaranteed can't be counted as part of your pay rate).

Eliminate the tipped employee rate entirely. Give the culture 10 years, and everything will be fine. It will be a long painful 10 years, but fixing omelettes and breaking eggs.

unreal376• 7 years ago

I think there has to be a cultural shift. There are many past behaviors that were once normal, that are now considered rude or socially unacceptable.

It starts with minimum wage laws changing so that waiters and bartenders are not exempt from normal minimum wages. Start there.

[1] https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standa...

scarface744• 7 years ago

2. The best servers usually want tips, because they can make more at a tipping establishment.

It’s not the “best” servers according to studies, it’s often the most attractive and non minority servers.

I don’t have any opinion either way about his conclusion/opinion but this is the first article I could find. I first heard about this on Freakonomics

http://www.opportunityinstitute.org/blog/post/im-going-to-ti...

madeofpalk2• 7 years ago

Its funny because other countries manage to pay staff a living wage, and not need tips.

mr_custard2• 7 years ago

I have lived in countries where there is no tipping and it works just fine. Better yet, there's no stress around general tip etiquette or simply "did I tip enough".

I find it frustrating to read time and time again "but it will never work". Having lived the reality, where employees are paid a decent living wage with no tipping, I say to you that such a response is simply untrue.

bm1362• 7 years ago

I see tipping as a form of profit sharing. If a server or barista gets more volume for the restaurant, they get a cut. Often times, servers leave at the end of the night with $200+. I used to be a valet and was paid $5/hour but would make easily over $100 in tips.

thinkingkong• 7 years ago

The issue is the solution needs to be all or nothing. Either everyone abolishes tipping or nobody can, because appearing to have higher prices isn’t good business. Just like we dont include taxes in prices here either. Who in their right mind would chose to do that and deal with explaining how the taxes are included to every new customer.

Flipping to fair wages will only happen after a massive publicity campaign and coordinated change.

matz1• 7 years ago

I generally don't tip, except for:

- the establishment that I frequent (they remember)

- uber (they affect your rating)

- I knew for sure that it will give me extra service.

In most situation I didn't experience negative affect.

howard9412• 7 years ago

Sucks for the server who has to pay tax on the imputed tip income you pocketed.

jjeaff• 7 years ago

As far as I'm aware, Uber drivers don't see whether you tipped or not until after they have rated you.

I suspect it is true since I never tip on Uber and I have a 4.96 out of 5 star rating.

They initially billed themselves as no tipping necessary. I refuse to subsidize driver wages on behalf of Uber. There is no way Uber is not benefitting from tipping by being able to keep wages lower as a result.

gambiting3• 7 years ago

The thing that bothered me the most when I visited North America was that attitude that you absolutely have to tip or otherwise you are some gigantic asshole. We went to a completely average restaurant, had completely average food that was possibly microwaved, the staff was average or below average at best.....and we all added like 15-20% tip at the end. I was just like......why? "Oh because you are a massive dick if you don't tip". I do occasionally tip in the UK when the service is really extraordinary, but feeling like you have to tip, almost completely detached from the actual quality of what you're getting.....that's bizzaire to me. And don't get me started on the nonsense that is tipping delivery drivers for what is effectively 5 seconds long interaction.

jvagner• 7 years ago

I've spent time in a lot of countries, and:

You tip in the US because the employees are paid a sum that assumes tips are coming. You can pay less than minimum wage because the actual compensation comes from tips.

Of course, this is different in other countries...

And yes, 15% is standard for "acceptable" service and food. You can tip less if you really have a complaint, but with the proliferation of Yelp and Google Reviews, it's easy enough to avoid bad places.

On a road trip, that can be a little different, but...

RHSeeger7• 7 years ago

Bear in mind that the food costs less at that restaurant _because_ the wait staff is paid less _because_ it is assumed you are tipping. As such, yes, you are a bad person for not tipping; you are getting the benefit of lower food prices in exchange for tipping.

Scoundreller8• 7 years ago

France is like that too.

Once with my hosts, I took care of the dining bill myself. Just when I thought I figured it all out, they’re like “oh, that was the owner of the restaurant with the cheque at the end, you really don’t have to give him a tip”.

D’oh.

jghn• 7 years ago

The pizza driver does not get the delivery charge. Generally that goes to the pizza shop itself. It's covering the overhead of maintaining a delivery program.

unreal376• 7 years ago

Oh no doubt the pizza shop keeps the "delivery charge".

But pizza is a delivery food. Dominos doesn't even have seats. 90% of what it does is delivery. So the "overhead of running a delivery program" is just a business expense that should come out of their revenues.

scarface744• 7 years ago

What overhead? The employees generally use their own car.

Stasis50012• 7 years ago

Tipping is a form of price discrimination, which generally makes things more efficient and has been a staple of capitalism since forever. A business actively wants to extract more money from customers who can afford more, and still sell to customers who are more price sensitive. Coupons are the more normal way to do this, but tipping serves this exact purpose. This is in theory good for customers (except in monopolies, where the business extracts all the value), but in practice, sure, I agree tipping is obnoxious as a customer and possibly even worse for those whose pay involves tips.

celticmusic2• 7 years ago

I flat do not tip if there's a delivery charge.

I've seen people make moral arguments about it, but I will not pay twice.

tk75x• 7 years ago

What about when the receipt/order slip explicitly says "any delivery charge is not paid to the driver"? many if not most national pizza chains have this disclaimer. I get around the tipping issue by ordering my pizza for pickup.

JustSomeNobody• 7 years ago

The pizza driver gets a delivery charge AND a tip!

I think some places don't give the delivery charge to the driver (I hear Papa John's pockets it, but maybe I heard incorrectly).

I agree in that I think tipping in general needs to change. But I was reading the other day where a bar owner was saying he could pay $X. But with tips, his employees were bringing home more than he was. It's hard for me to say this is wrong. What I find wrong, as you point out, is that everyone is asking for tips now. What I don't know is where to draw the line on who can ask for a tip and who can't.

FireBeyond7• 7 years ago

Yeah, there's a little corner place near here that has pre-made (not by them), pre-packaged sandwiches and lunch rolls in an open fridge/display in front of the register. You walk in, you pick out your sandwich, you put it on the counter and you pay for it. The cashier is literally that, someone who presses a button picture of your meal on an ipad, inserts a card, and returns card to you...

... and gives you a dirty look when you don't tip for "service".

flyGuyOnTheSly5• 7 years ago

If I am unhappy with my service or quality of food, I don't tip.

If the server is unhappy with the lack of a tip, and accosts me verbally (which has happened), I will explain my reasoning.

Vote with your wallet, and all that jazz.

If enough people stop tipping for crappy or non-existence services... perhaps eventually it will become more and more difficult for businesses to hire people to work for less than minimum wage... and the world will change.

One short tip at a time.

I am fine with other people thinking I am an asshole, they're free to do so. Most do not.

I have worked in restaurants for years, and I worked my ass off for every tip I received.

If you're serving me a microwaved burger, I don't care if that's the way they do it at this restaurant, I'm not tipping.

To the downvoters... what solution do you propose?

Legislation to be enacted to force restaurant employers the continent-over to start paying their employees more than twice what they're currently getting paid by the company, and increase food prices?

That's never going to happen imho, we tip in North America, and the restaurants pay their employees less than minimum wage, that's just the way it is now.

jawns• 7 years ago

If you are unhappy with the quality of your food, you don't tip your server?

Here's how that results in a lose-lose for both you and the server.

Normally, if your food does not meet expectations, the best recourse is to let the server know what the problem is. The server can then either have the kitchen resolve the problem or talk to a manager, who can intervene to make things right. The end result is that you end up with food that meets expectations, or perhaps get a portion of the meal comped, and you walk out satisfied.

By being passive aggressive and expressing your displeasure with a zero tip, you don't give the restaurant an opportunity to make things right, so you walk out unsatisfied.

You also punish the wrong person, because it's not the server who is preparing the food. And keep in mind that the server is working a low-paying, often high-stress job, and your withholding of a tip might hit hard.

And perhaps the reason why you've been accosted by servers is that nobody knows the reason why you're refusing to tip unless you tell them. If someone works hard but you stiff them because you didn't like the texture of your burger and didn't bother to raise the issue during your meal, it's not unreasonable for them to assume you thought there was something wrong with their service.

edmanet• 7 years ago

You say you "worked in restaurants for years". If a customer stiffed you on a tip would that encourage YOU to give them better service next time they come in?

stronglikedan2• 7 years ago

The tip can be variable to reflect your perception of the service, so leaving no tip just makes you the jerk. Also, you chose the restaurant that microwaves burgers, so you knew what you were getting into.

mikeash• 7 years ago

I agree but it doesn’t matter. It’s about eighteen billion times easier to shame a shitty company into confirming to cultural norms than it is to get hundreds of millions of people to change those norms.

jandrewrogers2• 7 years ago

In Seattle, there was a push a few years ago to eliminate tipping in many restaurants. A 20% service charge was automatically added to the bill instead, on the theory that it would result in fairer and higher compensation for restaurant workers. Several of the places I frequent made this change at around the same time. Only a few years later, most restaurants seem to have reverted to the old policy of tipping.

I've been told by several waiters and bartenders that worked in these restaurants that there was an employee revolt. People earned noticeably less money under the mandatory 20% service charge than with tipping. Consequently, no one wanted to work for restaurants that didn't have tipping. It was seen as a socially conscious move but it backfired for the people it was supposed to help.

The behavioral and economic dynamics with tipping in the US seem to be more complex than people account for.

verisimilitudes• 7 years ago

I agree that tipping is stupid. Tipping incentivizes me to spend less and eat at restaraunts less, because I only want to spend a dollar tipping, at most, and so seek to spend around ten dollars, at most.

The only reason I tip at all is because some restaraunts will remember me and you tip or get to wonder if they spit in your food. What a wonderful system.

I tip nowhere else and, since I'm not remembered, I face no negative consequences of this.

radcon• 7 years ago

I can't believe that was legal. They basically tricked consumers into giving them millions of dollars.

If the app called it a "Tip" then that should be some kind of fraud because it wasn't a tip in the way that any reasonable person would assume, it was a donation to the company.

kevinventullo• 7 years ago

I stopped using DoorDash a few years ago after reading about this. Despicable.

sambroner• 7 years ago

I'm regularly confused by tipping. I was never confused by tipping until the gig economy. There's a tip on almost all of the gig services I use now, with zero explanation of how the tip affects the gig worker. The tip should be a reflection of the workers contribution to the service. I probably won't ever tip a company.

DoorDash has raised $2Bil from investors. They're using this money, presumably, to attract customers and suppliers through advertising and low pricing. DoorDash is one of many companies using VC money in this way. Now I'm supposed to subsidize the VC's subsidy of the product?

TeMPOraL• 7 years ago

After the previous tipping drama (Instacart?), and little earlier my discovery that a tip in a hotel restaurant actually doesn't go to waiters, but its taken by the owner, I started to ask workers whether or not they receive the tip in full. So e.g. now I happily tip FreeNow (née MyTaxi) drivers, having two of them confirm to me that they pocket entirety of the tip.

nafizh• 7 years ago

Starup industry's break fast motto has become more like break every kind of decency these days.

Dirlewanger• 7 years ago

If we had a populace educated in basic personal finance, the gig economy would not exist.

notJim2• 7 years ago

I don't see how? It seems like the gig economy is essentially profiting from the fact that there are a lot more workers available than decent jobs. How would personal finance education change that situation?

souterrain• 7 years ago

Wage theft is theft. DoorDash, and the VCs backing them, should be treated as thieves until such time as they unequivocally reject the practice of wage theft in all of their business dealings.

neilv• 7 years ago

I thought management taking a cut of tips was known in the American restaurant/takeout industry to be illegal. And at least one other prominent dotcom has already been called on this.

Is this yet another instance of a dotcom knowingly and blatantly ignoring existing laws and regulations, and seeing how much they can get away with, while they use this advantage to steam full-ahead towards market dominance and IPO?

Is DoorDash yet influential enough that they can turn this into merely a regulatory handslap/caress?

ycombonator• 7 years ago

They misrepresented the tip charges to the customers. Where is FTC ? and why isn't there an investigation ?

malandrew• 7 years ago

Moral of the story is to never use DoorDash at least not until they pay back all those drivers the tips they stole.

parliament322• 7 years ago

My biggest gripe with tipping culture right now is the number of services and establishments that think it's okay to tip ahead of time.

If I sit down at a restaurant, and get served well, I'll leave a tip at the end when I pay. Hell, even if the service isn't great I'll still leave a bit of a tip.

But now there's this idea that you should tip for service... before you get served. The tip jars at Starbucks, apps that ask you to input your tip before you get your delivery, POS systems that ask for a tip, etc. There's no way I'll ever tip before service, and probably won't after either if the business is audacious enough to ask for a tip when they're using a pay-before business model.

I'm looking forward to seeing how long it takes for self-service gas pumps to start asking for tips. After all, there's an attendant inside keeping an eye on you, so that's a service right?

charliesharding• 7 years ago

I agree - I think it's an absolute misunderstanding of what a tip means. It completely removes incentive for the dasher to follow delivery instructions, grab extra napkins, ensure food is stored upright, etc. I would be so much more on board with agreeing to a set tip amount beforehand if I don't manually enter one after the food was delivered after x amount of time..

umvi• 7 years ago

This is so annoying! It's like an automatic thing now when paying in a trendy store using an iPad. It's like, I just ordered, but before I've even gotten my goods, I'm presented with a dialogue on whether I want to pay 5%, 10%, 15% tip (or "no tip" as a small button at the bottom).

I'm sure these businesses have found that merely including the dialogue = free money, so why wouldn't they?

neura• 7 years ago

I've had several experiences lately where the tip dialog only offered 15/20/25% or "other" (which could be used as "none")

parliament322• 7 years ago

I especially like the ones that offer you "quick" options of 20%, 25%, 30%. I think they're just banking on people pressing the middle button as quickly as possible without looking at it.

tssva2• 7 years ago

You can just go back and put your tip in the Starbucks tip jar after you have received your service. Also if you pay with the Starbucks mobile app you can add a tip for up to 2 hours after your order is complete.

seventhtiger2• 7 years ago

I don't understand tipping at places like Starbucks. There is no service and the employees are paid a full wage. I don't tip at 7-11 either.

moneytalks• 7 years ago

It's just panhandling if you ask for a tip before you've done any service. And it's offensive to get panhandled by a commercial enterprise.

tareqak• 7 years ago

DoorDash (YC s2013) [0].

[0] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/ (search for DoorDash)

EGreg• 7 years ago

Hey all.

Can someone explain to me WHY in 2019 we still tie the infrastructure to the power to make decisions?

Marketplaces are built not on open protocols (like email) but closed platforms.

They amass people from both sides and extract rents. But that’s a side effect of the closed nature of the software.

Why yell at doordash or uber or facebook to add a feature? Why does country X go after them for deleting posts while country Y yells that they didn’t delete similar posts? Closed software is the issue. “Zero to one. Competition is for losers” is who funded Facebook.

If people wanted to add tips in Wordpress or Email or whatever, they could just go ahead an add those. Or a million other features. Their clients would still interoperate.

Main reason: the capitalistic system we have encourages getting very wealthy as a result of building a successful company. It encourages people to work extremely hard and take risks while competing and duplicating 90% of the work others are doing. But in the area of software and information, copying is so easy. Collaboration beats competition nearly every time, relegating the proprietary solutions of yesteryear to obsolescence. The private market is reduced to turning out brief “bleeding edge” innovations which are then subsumed into the open source snowball.

Wikipedia, the Web, Webkit, Wordpress, MySQL and NGinX has beat Britannica, AOL, Blogger.com, IE, Oracle and IIS. So why don’t we have more of it in other areas? Drugs? Marketplaces?

Albert Wenger from USV has a nice online book called “World after Capital” that speaks about this.

elicash• 7 years ago

DoorDash CEO: "our average contribution to Dashers stayed the same"

What weird, coded language. They're not "paying employees." They're "contributing" to "Dashers." At first, I figured this was just a way to avoid saying that they're independent contractors, but this seems even more vague than THAT.

Why, legally, would they say "contributions" rather than "pay?" It seems like there's a different distinction from the independent contractor one.

somebodythere• 7 years ago

Because. DoorDash would not like you to think it's that you paying DoorDash and DoorDash paying Dashers. That would, in fact, make them independent contractors.

Instead, DoorDash would like you to think that you are paying the Dasher directly. DoorDash provided you a platform to find a Dasher and enter into a delivery agreement with them. And DoorDash is graciously "contributing" to the Dasher's income. This would make them no more an independent contractor than someone looking for work on Craigslist.

I don't think this holds up because DoorDash is custodial of the money before it reaches the Dasher's wallet, and because from the customer's perspective, they're ordering delivery from DoorDash, not a Dasher. But that's just my idle speculation.

scrollaway• 7 years ago

How is what you're describing different than a freelancing platform like upwork?

I'm sure the service terms are different but in upwork's case, they're also acting as the escrow and taking a cut.

40acres• 7 years ago

I think tipping is ingrained in American culture because of the lack of price transparency throughout this economy. This has been a recent topic of discussion in regards to healthcare but it also shows up in retail, where the shelf price is not reflective of sales taxes, and when booking services like flights and hotels where "resort fees" and "baggage fees" rear their ugly head last minute.

I've even seen "no tipping" restaurants do the same with a fine print saying that a 15-18% gratuity will be charged on top of my order, well.. why aren't all the dishes simply 15-18% more expensive then?

iguy4• 7 years ago

When I'm king this will count as false advertising. The biggest printed price must be the price you pay, by default, unless you specifically ask for something unusual.

121789• 7 years ago

I don't think that's the problem. I'm American and I'll generalize a bit and say Americans are generally comfortable with tipping as long as the service is a differentiator for what you receive (full service restaurants, hair stylists, drivers, bartenders). The recent frustration has been the explosion of tipping where service has nothing to do with the experience, like fast food restaurants or low cost coffee shops.

throwtipaway5• 7 years ago

No we are not comfortable with tipping. Many people like me do not tip even though we get weird looks or the occasional angry waiter.

shados4• 7 years ago

I think tipping is ingrained in American culture

Tipping is ingrained in American culture because there's an insane disparity between rich and poor and it makes the rich feel better about themselves (and those who do it but wish they didn't then peer pressure their friends into doing it. See the current wave of articles about tipping hotel staff claiming that its the norm even though only a third of people do).

Its stupid and simply shouldn't be a thing. Especially since it means employees' salaries effectively end up at the mercy of customers, and customers are not regulated (eg: there is NOTHING stopping customers from being racist/sexist/bigoted/whatever like there is employers, so pay could theoretically vary drastically and there's fuck all they could do about it).

mwfunk• 7 years ago

It's not about making rich people feel better about themselves. In the case of restaurants at least, in the US servers are often paid below minimum wage, because the employer claims that the bulk of their employees' wages come from tips.

That's not anyone making anyone else feel guilty or good or bad about themselves, rather that's an entire industry that has been allowed through actual legislation to shift the burden of paying their employees from themselves to their own customers. That's the root of it. And those customers have no obligation to actually give anyone any money. It's a really screwed up system, and like you say it's completely unregulated and opens the door for all kinds of awful dynamics around racism/sexism/etc.

So, if someone stiffs their server in a restaurant in spite of their friends trying to guilt them into tipping, the person stiffing the server is truly the asshole in that situation. Yeah, the whole system's screwed up, it shouldn't be like that, it's all a big scam, but the service industry people shouldn't be the ones to get screwed over it. I'm not accusing anyone here of doing this, it's just something I've witnessed. I.e., someone who thinks they're really teaching someone (not sure who) a lesson about how much they detest expectations around tipping by stiffing their server or always leaving lousy tips. Whenever I've seen this happen, all I've seen was a rich person being shitty to a poor person to send a message to the poor person's employer that the employer never receives. I'm as annoyed by expectations around tipping as anyone, but hopefully everyone realizes that the restaurant server situation is very different from most other situations (valet, hotel employee, etc.).

throwtipaway5• 7 years ago

A bunch of restaurants actually include the tip in prices, there are lists online and you can encourage this practice by eating out there.

IMO you can also encourage this practice by not tipping.

miaklesp2• 7 years ago

I never pay any tips except in restaurants. I always set tip to 0 in Prime Now etc. I makes me feel good that I can spend the saved money on myself.

rconti• 7 years ago

There was a really easy fix for this. Remove the message that says "100% of your tip goes to your Dasher". Stop lying to the customer. It's that simple!

As usual, the reality of the financial situation is fairly complicated. Doordash guarantees minimums that other such services do not. In other words, in many ways, Doordash was more friendly to their 'contractors' than other services.

If they had simply chosen not to be unethical and lie to customers about where their tips go, they could have had it both ways.

FireBeyond7• 7 years ago

Their argument was that it's not a lie. The entirety of your tip _does_ go to the Dasher.

... it's just that they reduce _their_ fee paid to them by, coincidentally, the same amount.

And claim that this offers the Dasher "stability".

minikites2• 7 years ago

Many people want to keep the very concept and system of tips in place because it affords them power over someone:

https://theoutline.com/post/4602/the-restaurant-industry-is-...

“Money is power,” said Brooklyn-based waitress Marisa Licandro. “If the customer is paying my wage, they have power over me. And customers having power over you means that you can’t speak against them when they try to grab you.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/11/business/tipp...

There was the waitress in Portland, Ore., Whitney Edmunds, who swallowed her anger when a man patted his lap and beckoned her to sit, saying, “I’m a great tipper.”

https://jezebel.com/what-does-tipping-have-to-do-with-sex-an...

And his go-to line was so predictable, we would wait for it, anticipate it. “I always tip way more than twenty percent!”
If that was the case, why were these guys so mad about paying only 18%, far less than they otherwise would? What was it about not choosing the amount they tipped, that infuriated them, even when they were getting a discount?
It had to be at least partially about lack of control. Or, more accurately, lack of imagined control. This guy thought that, in a tipped environment, his server would perform better in order to get more of his money. That idea is false, as shown both by repeated studies and common sense, but that was irrelevant. His anger could not be redeemed by mere facts.

GigLoL• 7 years ago

The "gig economy" is designed for the idiots on both sides.

The idiots that use these services.

The idiots that "work" for these services.

Can't wait until it all goes away.

johnwheeler• 7 years ago

Doordash is so stupid. I should be able to tip after I get my order, not before. Until they fix that, the model is backwards and broken for the consumer

oiasdjfoiasd• 7 years ago

yeah, lol. once you do it once, you'll never do it again.

Add tip. Delivery driver fucks up the order/super late/spills your drink. Too late! already tipped.

pacetherace2• 7 years ago

Tipping model is at its tipping point.

It is high time US citizens stop tipping and make businesses realize that the customers are not directly responsible for employee wages.

cameronbrown• 7 years ago

Devil's Advocate: Many people in the hospitality industry are making far more via tips than they'd receive from a market wage.

dajohnson89• 7 years ago

many people are also NOT making what they could be making, if paid a fair wage. At the very least, they're subject to an insane amount of income insecurity.

If a bartender at a sluggish restaurant is scheduled monday-wednesday, instead of his usual fri-sunday, he's probably screwed and making a fraction of what he normally does.

Terretta• 7 years ago

Then it's part of the 'market' and will rebalance.

luma• 7 years ago

But which among those are making far more? Is it the person who goes the extra mile to ensure good service? Or is it the attractive, white, young, well-dressed, well-groomed, well-educated, and well-spoken person?

Tipping has been shown over and over again to be horribly discriminatory against those who don't line up with the list presented above.

pluma4• 7 years ago

So what you're saying is that the minimum wage is too low.

ajross2• 7 years ago

That's a spun "many", though. Sure, "many" are. "Many" are not. And at the low end of the wage spectrum the difference in personal welfare has a very steep curve. If, say, 20% of workers are doing well over minimum wage in tips, does that justify the (again, totally made up number) 10% who are making less?

quest88• 7 years ago

Couldn't people still tip if they thought the service was truly exceptional?

ikeyany• 7 years ago

No way others in the industry go for this. If you had the option to legally pay 20%+ less in taxes, would you? Exactly.

pacetherace2• 7 years ago

If I had the option to not pay taxes, obviously I wouldn't but I don't that that has any relation to tipping.

On the other hand, when the government asks to donate for a disaster, does everybody contribute even if they completely sympathize with the issue? You may do it sometimes, but will you do it every time there is a disaster? Will you do it even if you can afford it? What will be your opinion of the government if they tell you "We can't deal with these disasters unless we get donations. We know these same disasters happen every year and we should have budgeted properly but we didn't do it for political reasons. But now if you don't donate, people will be in trouble"

Tipping is a way of showing your appreciation for service. But if it has to be done every time, then you may as well call it a service charge.

throwtipaway5• 7 years ago

A lot of us are already doing this. I get weird looks all the time, or people will get upset if we’re in a group. A few times waiters actually got upset and asked me why I wasn’t tipping. It’s hard but by principle I’ll still refuse to tip. I wish there was a subreddit community. Maybe r/notip ?

thallavajhula• 7 years ago

This is great. But, I got excited thinking that DoorDash changed their tipping UX by allowing users to tip after the service is rendered.

robocat3• 7 years ago

Can't you tip with cash?

larrybud• 7 years ago

It seems like the simple answer to this is to tip out-of-band directly to the person (e.g, cash, venmo, etc).

g9yuayon• 7 years ago

I feel sick to my stomach. I give tips specifically to the drivers, yet those companies took a cut without even telling the drivers. A so-called high-tech company behaves like a rogue restaurant owner. How low can we go?

jdkee• 7 years ago

Solution: tip in cash.

DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar

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