My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

https://tobiasberg.net/posts/my-macbook-keyboard-is-broken-and-its-insanely-expensive-to-fix/

by TobiasBerg • 4 months ago

382 527 4 months ago

This isn't an issue with macbook keyboards, a lot of windows laptops have their keyboards riveted to the C cover of a laptop.

matt_heimer• 4 months ago

isn't an issue ONLY with macbook keyboards. It is absolutely an issue that shouldn't exist.

hurricanepootis2• 4 months ago

Yes, my bad. I totally agree with that it does indeed suck. I've had to replace the C cover of my laptop before for reasons not related to the keyboard (a screw post broke because Dell had the bright of idea of attaching a metal screw post to the body with plastic). I ended up fixing that issue, but the keyboard that was installed in the C cover was noticeably shittier than my old one.

I'm now on a Framework 13, and it's been pretty fun so far.

jwlake• 4 months ago

ifixit sells just the keyboards, why doesn't that work?

https://www.ifixit.com/products/macbook-pro-14-a2442-a2779-a...

MrDOS• 4 months ago

The article is ten paragraphs (two of which are four words or shorter). The entire sixth paragraph is dedicated to answering that question.

mosselman2• 4 months ago

Someone posted a video on how to slam out the rivets with a screwdriver.

SkiFire13• 4 months ago

I don't see a replacement guide link on that page, but curiously there's this note:

The aluminum upper case and installation screws are not included.

I would assume you likely need those too, as the article also mentions.

nerdsniper• 4 months ago

Wouldn’t the screws in your existing generally be reusable for this replacement?

k3102• 4 months ago

Go figure. MacBook Neo Is the Most Repairable MacBook in 14 Years [0]

Much as a laptop would suit me, I opted for a mini and a large display.

Come keyboard time, I was ready to spend $$$$$ for an Apple keyboard, but the only backlit ones come on laptops. I'm using a Logitech now, with the option of charging it all the time, else the lights dim themselves to conserve battery.

Yes, I was 19 once. And three times after that. But there we go again, stuff designed for 19 year-olds.

How about this? (image at imgbb.com)

https://i.ibb.co/66RZd3b/mbp16-m3-max-01.jpg (JK)

k3102• 4 months ago

Replying to myself because I forgot the reference [0]

I'm happy with the downvotes if they're for the JK laptop keyboard mashup.

Otherwise, pretty much as others have posted. Peripherals otta be peripheral, not welded in place.

I worked around the dilemma.

Twice.

An iPad pro has a keyboard, trackpad and BT mouse.

And I have a doorstop iMac because of a somehow dead display. (repair $$$$$ )

I very much favor separate everything.

Peace.

[0] https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-r...

BoredPositron• 4 months ago

What MacBook is it? If you don't have the insane butterfly switches single keys are pretty repairable now.

drdirk• 4 months ago

My MacBook Pro M1 keyboard repair costed >700€, this is not a butterfly keyboard. So also new models have an expensive keyboard replacement.

My previous MacBook Pro keyboard was a butterfly keyboard and also broke, but got replaced for free. I don’t feel I am a heavy user as the MacBook Pro is mostly connected to an external keyboard and am pretty annoyed by apples keyboard quality (based on my sample size of 2).

brailsafe• 4 months ago

I think those are just the keycaps, not the switches or the actual board underneath

mhjkl2• 4 months ago

You can remove and replace the switches too

KnuthIsGod• 4 months ago

My first computer was a Mac Plus.

I got to experience Apple's customer hostile practices.

Many years ago l decided never to buy an Apple product again.

justinator• 4 months ago

AppleCare is honestly a great deal, especially for laptops. M1 Macbook Pros from 2020 are humming along just fine for regular people who see no reason to upgrade.

The future is now, old man.

tim-tday2• 4 months ago

Bought AppleCare for my AirPods. Never again.

radley4• 4 months ago

I've never worried about AppleCare for my Apple products, until this year when I signed up for AppleCare One. I bought a few new devices, including the Studio Monitor XDR. For the XDR alone it's worth it, since replacing the screen is a multi-$1k repair.

AussieWog933• 4 months ago

I just looked up Apple Care. Costs $449 AUD (~$300 USD) for 3 years of coverage on a MacBook Pro.

A quick search shows that it's ~$500-$600 to fix the screen if it does break; I didn't bother looking up the keyboard but I'd assume it's much, much less.

So basically, on the off chance that your MacBook does shit the bed in the most expensive way, you save ~$150 or so? But in the almost-certain case that your Macbook is fine, you're down $450?

That is not a great deal at all, haha!

akvadrako• 4 months ago

I had AppleCare when my keyboard failed. They blamed it on me because of an dent about 1mm wide I never noticed on the back corner.

So you just get screwed twice.

mattbillenstein• 4 months ago

Framework Laptop + some form of Linux - MacOS keeps getting worse and the hardware exceeding hard and expensive to repair.

cyanydeez• 4 months ago

If they would have sprung for the AMD395+ in the latop @ 128GB, you'd have a fair comparison for AI compute.

0xedd• 4 months ago

HP Zbook G1a 14. OEM Linux support.

zapnuk2• 4 months ago

Framework Laptop is more expensive than a Macbook Air with all around worse hardware. For a framework 13 I'd have to pay 1900€ with a 16GB setup. For 1450 I get a MBA with 24GB ram. Similar with a dell or lenovo who get smoked in performance comparisons.

It might still be worth it for those who hugely value open source and repairability but as for value I think its save to say that Apple is currently in a league of their own. Even if the altest os update is a flop.

Also, the Macbook has improved repairability. While its still not great its better than a few years ago.

ChuckMcM2• 4 months ago

Framework Laptop is more expensive than a Macbook Air with all around worse hardware.

Is it though? I'd agree the hardware is less capable but if your Macbook anything is really just one 'top case' repair away from being more expensive. RAM failure is 'motherboard replace', the display? it is similarly expensive to replace.

So I would agree that it is more expensive to purchase a Framework laptop than a Macbook laptop, but also feel it is more expensive to own a Macbook laptop than a Framework laptop. Also I just replaced the screen on my FW13 not because it was broken but because they have one with 4x the pixels on it now. That's not something I could have done with the Macbook.

mittensc2• 4 months ago

I can configure a 1400E framework 13 with a bring-my-own ssd + linux.

I can drop it down to 1050E without the ram if i take ram from my older laptop.

Upgrading or fixing this is very easy. RAM/SSD i can take with me over multiple generations of a laptop.

I can't do that on a macbook, if anything breaks there (screen, ssd, ram, keyboard, battery bulging...) I might as well buy another.

Then there's the issue of macos... you're stuck with it, if you don't like it, it's a dealbreaker.

There's also issue of waste... I can make a router/firewall from an old framework mobo. I can't do that with a macbook.

bigyabai3• 4 months ago

It's not just Tahoe; macOS is simply insufferable for many users. You can pitch Apple Silicon to gamers, warship captains or datacenter users, but they won't care when the dust settles. It's a device for people that want a Mac, and if you want a PC, server or homelab then you gotta get different hardware. It's entirely a software limitation, imposed by Apple.

I don't value open source or repairability that much. I just want to develop server software, and on macOS I always end up with the same janky VM-based workflow I suffer through on Windows. On the desktop I have no reason to waste my time with macOS, and I don't use a laptop often enough to justify reincorporating macOS into my life.

Esophagus43• 4 months ago

The downside of an Apple is generally you can’t improve the hardware by replacing it piecemeal as new hardware comes out.

That was my goal buying a Framework… to get to refresh hardware regularly as better stuff came out rather than waiting 10 years to buy a new laptop.

Will it work that way in reality? No idea, but I thought it was at least interesting enough to take a gamble.

aurareturn7• 4 months ago

FYI, for those who are consider Framework, you are usually getting a laptop that is 2x as expensive as a Macbook but slower, with a worse screen, far worse performance and battery life, and likely not as reliable as a Mac long term.

You can basically buy 2 Macbook Airs for the same price as Framework 13 and keep one in the draw if you are ever scared that one breaks. That's how bad of a deal Framework is or how much of a value Macbooks are.

Try configuring a Framework yourself and you'll quickly find that even the basic configuration goes over $1400. Any upgrade on the CPU and you're already at $1770.[0]

You can usually get an M4 Macbook Air 16GB for $750 - $800 on sale. So you can get 2 of them for the same price as one Framework 13 and still significantly outperform it.

Framework is an idealogical buy. It just isn't worth it otherwise.

[0]https://frame.work/products/laptop13-diy-amd-ai300/configura...

_lvbh• 4 months ago

I've personally found the repairability to be worth the price for me. I got the baseline $999 back when it launched & have done stupid things like spilling a whole gallon of milk on it. Had to take it apart & clean as well as replace the keyboard but now it's still chugging along. Used to own a MacBook & the keyboard started dying after a year with a failed A key. Very expensive to replace so I just remapped caps lock to A. Then the screen started getting weird color issues and dead pixels. A MacBook Neo does look attractive though. Probably better performance.

jijijijij2• 4 months ago

The recent base Framework 13 would cost you $1,170, Ryzen AI 5 340, with 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD and 4 full featured (USB4) USB-C ports. Note: You can buy the RAM and SSD separately, Framework even links PCPartsPicker (no price for 2x8GB RAM, so price is for single 16GB). How much storage space does your last gen M4 Macbook Air come with? 256GB would be irrelevant for most anyone, as you cannot upgrade... unlike with a Framework, where you can upgrade everything.

You are comparing dissimilar things, anyway. On a recent Macbook, you are hard stuck with MacOS. If you don't want MacOS (or ARM for that matter), Macbooks could be free and it's still the worse deal. Macbooks are subsidized by pushing you into the increasingly locked-down software/hardware ecosystem, where Apple is rent seeking. Paying for a firewall, or virtualization environment is mostly unheard of in the Linux world. It's like a cheap printer, where the real cost is DRM protected ink.

On a Framework you have excellent support for both Windows and Linux. You are free to do whatever you want.

smilliken• 4 months ago

If you're price conscious, buy the self-assembled framework kit. It's fun and takes half an hour to assemble.

I got a framework 16 with a handful of upgrades for $1400. I added 96GB of RAM purchased separately for $300 (before the shortage). I also got a 4TB NVMe for $300. What do those upgrades cost cost in a macbook?

I think most people care more about their OS than their hardware specs, so they defend their purchase like it's part of their identity and it's hard to have a rational discussion.

Edit: If you're talking about the Intel model, I agree with you. The Ryzens are fantastic.

VladVladikoff• 4 months ago

Looks like it’s possible to replace just the keyboard https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SeSQ0DpG1HA&t=907s&pp=2AGLB5AC...

throwaway27448• 4 months ago

It is. It's simply expensive.

mosselman2• 4 months ago

No, a new keyboard is between 12 and 50 euros depending on where you get it, the video is the missing piece.

mememememememo• 4 months ago

mapped capslock + J K L I

you need to visit the confessional for that

ebbi• 4 months ago

Cautiously optimistic, given the repairability of the MacBook Neo keyboard, that this design will make it to the rest of their laptops when the refreshed designs are released (next year?).

julienreszka• 4 months ago

Here’s hoping governments regulate laptop manufacturers to actually make repairable machines in the future.

if you thing government regulation will help you you are lying to yourself that's not how the world works

Fargren• 4 months ago

Government regulation has mandated USB-C in all devices, which helps me every day. Just to name something in the realm of what the article is about.

bigyabai3• 4 months ago

If you think Apple is incapable of designing repairable keyboards, then I'd like to know how Lenovo figured it out: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+T480+Keyboard+R...

DonHopkins• 4 months ago

Chewing on lead paint and reading Ayn Rand is not how to learn how the world works either.

tim-tday2• 4 months ago

I just had the most horrendous Apple repair experience. In standard warranty with Apple care. Would NOT authorize a mail in repair. Would only authorize walk in to my local shitty Apple authorized third party repair center who were unable / unwilling to reproduce.

Fought with them for weeks. Escalated. They lied and said they were doing a no cost replacement. Had to fight the charge. Then they lost my return.

So much so that I’ve started switching to Linux and de-googled phone. (Switching off of iPhone just to go to google seems like the greater of evils)

The non Apple ecosystem is much more mature than last I checked but still irritating. De googling was my biggest challenge. Getting a viable replacement for Mac OS was the easy part.

crazygringo• 4 months ago

What was the problem? If the local repair center couldn't reproduce it, what was going on?

And what do you mean they lost your return? Like it got delivered and then it was lost? Surely they gave you a working unit at that point?

I've had a bunch of experiences with Apple repair and always always been fast and great. I mean, they're definitely the best service of literally any corporation I've dealt with, by far. Sometimes you get unlucky I guess with a particular rep or something hard to reproduce, but it sounds like you got extremely unlucky? It definitely isn't representative in my experience, not even close.

relium• 4 months ago

My MacBook Pro M1 keyboard broke too and Apple wanted $900 to replace it. I bought a $30 replacement on Amazon and started replacing it myself. Unfortunately the repair was a bit too complicated for me, but luckily one of my co-workers had more patience and replaced it for some beer.

This video is a good overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGmMpEEP5ls

Gigachad9• 4 months ago

Thankfully the m1 was the last of the evil design era for Macs. Modern ones are significantly better. The neo being the best, able to be fully disassembled with a screw driver in a few minutes

docmars2• 4 months ago

I don't even understand the functional purpose of the rivets if the keyboard is already held in place with a million screws and the key slots cut into the aluminum frame. It makes no sense, seems like a waste.

brokenmachine2• 4 months ago

Can you not see why they might be incentivized to make it unrepairable?

linsomniac2• 4 months ago

Does anyone know if this is covered under the Apple Care plans? My 16" M1 MBP keyboard has been no problem, I'm just curious. Not saying that negates the issue.

Unfortunately, AFAICT, these repairability issues are largely due to the move to thinner and lighter laptops. Replacing my MILs Microsoft Surface tablet was a pain in the butt. Had to cut the case open and tape it back together. But that thing was insanely small and light. My MIL liked it because she has a lot of trouble carrying anything very heavy.

mananaysiempre• 4 months ago

Keyboards on MacBook Pros have been riveted since at least 2014. That doesn’t necessarily disprove your argument, but it does move the “thin and light” bar farther back than one would expect from the phrasing.

linsomniac2• 4 months ago

Apple has long made trade offs in pursuit of "thin and light". Apple announced the 2014 MBP as "People love their MacBook Pro because of the thin and light, aluminum unibody design". https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2014/07/29Apple-Updates-MacBo...

radley4• 4 months ago

Ah, that timeframe is helpful to know. I had to replace the keyboard in my 2012 MBP twice, and was able to do it myself both times.

Since then, I always use keyboard skins.

FinnKuhn• 4 months ago

The new MacBook Neo's keyboard is not riveted and instead held with screws. As far as I could tell it is still just as thin and light as other MacBooks.

vr46• 4 months ago

Yes it is, I had my M! Max keyboard replaced as repairing the individual keycaps didn't work, and then they replaced the entire logic board while they were testing due to finding an error. Total cost was around €1400, to me €0. New bottom case, new battery, new logic board.

carlosjobim3• 4 months ago

Swedes many times have a defeatist attitude towards companies and authorities, and expect that they will never get any help unless they have a right to it (from warranties or such).

The author doesn't mention ever contacting Apple to get his keyboard fixed. Maybe he could have gotten pleasantly surprised?

"Here’s hoping governments regulate laptop manufacturers to actually make repairable machines in the future."

However, this quote is not a surprise at all, and goes perfectly in line with Swedish philosophy. And the philosophy of this message board as well.

stkhlm2• 4 months ago

The author isn't Swedish. I've known him for 18 years. Not sure where this comes from.

carlosjobim3• 4 months ago

His name is Swedish or it could be Norwegian.

Anyway, did he contact Apple to see if they could help him out? Because sometimes Apple fixes these things for free.

I've had very good and very bad experiences with Apple support for hardware failures. It's worth trying to contact them, instead of calling for more government regulation.

MostlyStable• 4 months ago

Here’s hoping governments regulate laptop manufacturers to actually make repairable machines in the future.

No, this is a bad solution. If you want a repairable machine, buy one. They exist. Others have already mentioned Framework, but there are other options that aren't that far down the spectrum either.

One of the things macbook users praise the most is "build quality", which often means the solidity of the device, lack of flex, etc. These quality features are, in part, achieved by the same choices that make it hard to repair. Ease of repair and "build quality", are to some degree (although not entirely) tradeoffs against each other.

I say this as a framework owner who would never buy something as irreparable as a macbook. Regulation is not the answer here.

wvenable7• 4 months ago

No, this is a bad solution.

You didn't say why this is a bad solution. The government mandates that cars get safer every year and fatalities are down 78% from the 1960s. Whenever government regulates things to benefit people, people tend to benefit.

One of the things macbook users praise the most is "build quality", which often means the solidity of the device, lack of flex, etc.

It seems like the Macbook Neo has a lot of those properties as well for a very inexpensive device that is extremely easy to repair.

internet2000• 4 months ago

It seems like the Macbook Neo has a lot of those properties as well for a very inexpensive device that is extremely easy to repair.

It's slightly worse, slightly more flex, thicker and heavier vs an Air in spite of having a smaller battery and more empty space. It's all trade offs.

If you want repairable, please buy a Framework or Lenovo. Backseat industrial designing through legislation is not the answer.

bloppe2• 4 months ago

Car safety is a bad counterexample because the risk is otherwise often externalized i.e. your car can easily hurt a total stranger whereas the consequences of your choice in laptop are strictly personal. And as GP stated, regulating this sort of thing would definitely force a particular trade-off on everyone. A lot of people would be pissed to have MacBooks with worse "build quality" even if they were more reparable. Having a choice is better.

jdpedrie• 4 months ago

The government mandates that cars get safer every year and fatalities are down 78% from the 1960s. Whenever government regulates things to benefit people, people tend to benefit.

On some metrics. On affordability, new cars are considerably more expensive. Whether that's a worthwhile tradeoff is beside the point. The GP's point is that there's no free lunch, and your example doesn't address that.

an0malous2• 4 months ago

You didn't say why this is a bad solution.

The fear is that regulations ossify industries and that's why heavily regulated industries like healthcare, education, and transportation have seen basically no innovation in 50 years. If you mandate that all electronic devices must have USB-C cables, how can anyone invent something better than a USB-C cable? And for what, so people don't have to have multiple cables? That's not even in the top 100 problems that a government body as large as the EU should be concerned about.

Whenever government regulates things to benefit people, people tend to benefit.

Healthcare, education, transportation, and housing would all be counterexamples depending on how you want to frame "benefit."

It seems like the Macbook Neo has a lot of those properties as well for a very inexpensive device that is extremely easy to repair.

This is counter to your point, no one regulated that Apple make the MacBook Neo easy to repair. Apple is incentivized to follow the market.

matt-attack• 4 months ago

Do you have a reference for the neo being easy to repair? Is this regarding the keyboard? Or the whole thing?

bzzzt2• 4 months ago

The innovations that mattered were seat belts and airbags. After that you have to correct for all the electronic gadgets that also actively distract or make drivers over-confident. Real numbers are not available, but governments keep mandating all kinds of questionable safety features that increase the price of vehicles (and insurance) and reduces competition in the market.

PunchyHamster7• 4 months ago

You didn't say why this is a bad solution. The government mandates that cars get safer every year and fatalities are down 78% from the 1960s. Whenever government regulates things to benefit people, people tend to benefit.

That's widely incorrect. EU mandates some active systems (TC, ABS) and some basic level of physical protection, but majority of gains there have been driven by manufacturers trying to ace eachother in EuroNCAP rating

EU makes sure woefully unsafe car can't be sold, sure, but most of the progress here has been manufacturers, and non-car-related road safety improvements.

mrtksn• 4 months ago

What if the repairable ones crunch the numbers and find out that Apple got the right idea from business standpoint and the only reason they can't do the same is that their laptops or their brand is not as good? It will mean that if they actually end up making a product that people want that product will not be easy to repair as well.

radley4• 4 months ago

If you want a repairable machine, buy one. They exist. Others have already mentioned Framework

But that means Windows or Linux, not macOS. There's serious trade-offs that you're dismissing because you personally don't need macOS, but that's not the case for everyone.

#hn-bingo

ThePowerOfFuet2• 4 months ago

macOS has slid a long way down the quality ladder over the past ten years.

lucasfin000• 4 months ago

The "just buy another one" argument only works if the alternatives are even comparable. For a lot of people, macOS is a hard requirement and not a preference, so telling them just to buy a framework that runs Linux ignores that entirely. Right to repair regulation doesn't force Apple to make a worse product it just requires that the parts and repair information are available.

jclardy• 4 months ago

Interestingly, Apple's newest and cheapest laptop (the Neo) is super repairable. And even the keyboard is finally replaceable without having to replace the entire top case. Hopefully the trend is continued in the next redesigns of the Air and Pro which are due soon.

Gigachad9• 4 months ago

Next year all consumer devices are required to have user replaceable batteries in the EU. Apple has noticeably been making massive design changes on many products to get closer in line with these laws.

throw939484999• 4 months ago

Goverment regulates everything including cow farts!

Apple can keep their unrepairable macbook. Butc should not be marketed as "green product". It should pay extra as ICE cars, be excluded from educational markets, public institutions etc...

kakacik• 4 months ago

What a wildly incorrect comment. You realize its perfectly feasible and fully within apple engineers powers to design trivially repairable notebook (or any other device) while not losing any of those qualities you mention (which are easy to find in expensive competition too)? Don't make those extremely well paid engineers incompetent just because it suits your argument.

But vendor lockin mandated by management is way more powerful than powers of engineers, apple ain't immune to this since its accountants and lawyers running the company.

I'll give it a benefit of a doubt and won't claim its a PR comment and just a uncritical fanboy one, but its pretty close.

Gigachad9• 4 months ago

Decades of HN users finger wagging and suggesting FOSS hardware has progressed society nowhere. 12 months from EU mandatory replaceable batteries and products across the industry are being redesigned with repairability, usb-c, and user friendly designs.

It’s time to accept regulation actually does work when you have a competent government.

RajT884• 4 months ago

Indeed, government regulation is decried mostly because of all the cases where it got polluted by special interests, instead of following the interests of general consumers.

This is how you end up turning a chunk of your food supply into fuel to subsidize crops which aren't all that good at being distilled into fuel in the first place...

BoorishBears• 4 months ago

That's a great example of their point, all I got was a mechanically inferior connector (putting the most important piece of the female connector on a floating sliver of plastic was a choice) and the cable hell attached to USB C.

If USB C had been so important to me I wouldn't have bought iPhones all those years.

edhelas• 4 months ago

Gigachad writing there <3

piekvorst20• 4 months ago

Having the government regulate the free market is an issue of physical force and should always be discussed as such. Are you willing to deal with men by force beyond retaliation? This issue is moral, not practical.

Besides, it’s easy to sell one’s freedom to a competent government, but it’s insanely hard to get it back when it rots. This has been the case of many welfare states. “Let’s force them to do the damn thing” is the very root of all social conflicts, not a magical solution. Being able to withstand it is a commendable exception, not rule.

hnfong2• 4 months ago

It’s time to accept regulation actually does work when you have a competent government.

Given that it's the EU making those regulations, it looks like the government only has to be semi-competent. Maybe the only requirement is that they're not totally in bed with the big corps making money.

abc123abc1233• 4 months ago

Nope. What the real effect has been is a waste of billions of billions that have gone into changing stuff that never needed changing. Future development has now been slowed down as well in the EU.

All it takes to see that government regulation never works, is to look at how far behind the EU is in terms of GDP growth compared with the US and China who both have a significantly lighter touch when it comes to regulation.

The EU is f*cked, and will become a little socialist region, with manual and tourist industry jobs, where rich people from the rest of the world go for a few weeks of vacation.

I left the EU a long time ago, and I've earned so much money after leaving the socialist madness, that I recommend all young people I meet to do the same.

vintagedave3• 4 months ago

regulation actually does work when you have a competent government

This is the free market. Free as in, regulated to allow and encourage market entry and competition (as with replacement keyboards), not free as in unregulated. When you look back at when 'free market' was first strongly mentioned as a term, this is what it meant.

corndoge• 4 months ago

Both you and GP are correct!

e_i_pi_2• 4 months ago

We've also seen this within the US - California generally makes the first move and then companies just follow that law because they know others might change and it's easier than doing it by state. One relatively small law can have a big impact, we also follow GDPR in the US because a lot of companies operate in europe too

hilliardfarmer• 4 months ago

People need to stop buying apple products. Anyone dumb enough to have already done so deserves what they get.

kevin_thibedeau• 4 months ago

Chat control is not something that indicates competence. They're throwing darts and sometimes hit the board.

throw0101a• 4 months ago

usb-c

Don't forget about the time micro-USB has mandated. Was that "competent government"?

Levitating• 4 months ago

We can't rely on the government to step on any time consumers are getting abused. We need to teach consumers to do better.

Trannosaur• 4 months ago

Also, they're ignoring the true cost of unrepairable hardware which is e-waste. Perhaps if they're looking for a lighter hand, they'd suggest that less repairable hardware has to have a tax that pays for its PROPER recycling.

raw_anon_111116• 4 months ago

And making them more repairable as someone else said has tradeoffs. It’s not like Apple is the low cost leader. Choose another vendor

delbronski• 4 months ago

Yes! We tried leaving tech unregulated and it did not work. We got huge monopolies screwing consumers at every turn. Time to try something new.

mannyv• 4 months ago

Have you heard the good news about regulatory capture?

Probably not if you're one of the public.

Imagine how the world would look if the EU mandated rs-232c ports on all devices. Or 3.5" headphone jacks. Or the use of D batteries for all electronics. How about ms-dos compatibility?

ajkjk• 4 months ago

well it's a good solution in the sense that it would solve the problem and it would be great for all of us.

pvtmert• 4 months ago

Here is the thing, replacing something may be hard or easy. But getting the parts (which are already produced and available for the manufacturers for their "added value" repairs) should be as easy as how they are getting them too.

Not to mention manuals/instructions. Regulation discussed here is about these too.

Also as consumer, I would argue the marketing done by apple is just scammy. They keep praising how much carbon saved or sustainable new machines are. But in fact, a minor issue becomes a massive electronic dump.

I also like Macs, I own several of them. Repaired a few. Mostly replacing batteries and keyboards. For example 2014 Macbook Air had a normal battery, no sticky business. Meanwhile 2020-2025 MacBook Air has sticky stuff, making repairs harder.

The best part is, 2014 macbook air has 54 Watt/hr battery, 2020-2025 models are 53 watts/hour. The lasting battery gains are coming from Apple silicon efficiency as well as modern BMS.

Simply put, regulation is the answer. Apple makes it difficult because they can, and also because it creates revenue. Of repairability was the source of income, you would see 10/10 repairable macbooks with no (significant) tradeoffs. (ie. it could be a few grams heavier for added screws)

danpalmer3• 4 months ago

If you want a repairable machine, buy one.... Framework

Sure, but Framework doesn't run the OS I want, doesn't run the chip I want, doesn't quite meet the form factor I want. It's not an effective market because I can't pick and choose.

The problem here is vertical integration. If you want anything from Apple you have to buy everything from Apple.

And the answer to that is: regulation.

Esophagus43• 4 months ago

Being an effective market doesn’t mean you get everything you want.

You’re actually saying: “I want Apple’s software, and I want certain chips, and I want a certain form factor. And if Apple won’t build what I want, I will pass a law to make them build it for me!”

Come on man. You will make tradeoffs either way. The answer isn’t: force a company to build what I want them to build.

henry2023• 4 months ago

you seem to assume that markets regulate themselves. This is a common fallacy. Good regulation is fundamental in any working society.

grumpyprole• 4 months ago

Yes, the belief that markets self regulate, was proved incorrect by the 2008 financial crisis.

socalgal2• 4 months ago

100% agree. If you don’t like that Apple products are expensive to repair, don’t buy them or suck it up

I came to terms with it, mostly. I buy AppleCare. I’ve had my screen on my M1 Mac replaced twice.

I agree with the sentiment tho. I had the rubber foot come off the bottom of a MacBook Pro, Apple wanted $350 to replace that $1 part. I found other solutions

Esophagus43• 4 months ago

If you don’t like that Apple products are expensive to repair, don’t buy them or suck it up

Yea exactly. This is why I switched from Apple to Framework.

I like MacOS better than Linux, but it was worth the hardware trade off for me.

GreenVulpine• 4 months ago

No. This is a bad solution. You can't blame consumers for not making the right choice when there's a sea of irreparable junk and a few niche repairable options on the market. Reparability should be the default expectation.

Fire-Dragon-DoL• 4 months ago

Yeah we can keep saying that, but thanks to the EU we have everybody with shared chargers. Thanks to the EU, the nintendo switch has a replaceable battery. Thanks to the EU, we have USB-C on iPhone.

I'm sorry but your argument conflicts with reality at this point: regulation works better for expectations on hardware.

tencentshill• 4 months ago

The Macbook Neo is just as high-quality as any other Apple product. Apple has some of the most brilliant engineers in the industry, they can absolutely design a repairable device to their own standards.

leptons2• 4 months ago

Apple has some of the most brilliant engineers in the industry,

Did they fire the guy who designed the magic mouse? What about the one who designed the iPhone 4 antenna? Are they still working there? The butterfly keyboard? The class action Apple lost over the Macbook 2011 design flaws? Should I go on?

ActorNightly• 4 months ago

One of the things macbook users praise the most is "build quality", which often means the solidity of the device, lack of flex, etc. These quality features are, in part, achieved by the same choices that make it hard to repair.

Lol what.

Nothing about apple design is a sacrifice to repairability. The only reason they make it hard to repair is because when your Mac breaks, you go buy another one. Can't afford it? Then you are not "classy" enough to own a Mac.

I swear, there must be some epidemic where Mac fans are losing their marbles even more so today.

28304283409234• 4 months ago

Your individual choice will not make systemic changes.

userbinator3• 4 months ago

Ease of repair and "build quality", are to some degree (although not entirely) tradeoffs against each other.

Thinkpads are a counterexample.

CharlieDigital• 4 months ago

    > No, this is a bad solution.

This is a great solution. See: EU and normalization on USB-C for power delivery and wider market effect. Yes, market was heading in this direction, but EU legislation brought it over the line.

throwaway8582510• 4 months ago

The MacBook neo keyboard is replaceable with a sticker and a bunch of screws. This was always possible. Apple just doesnt care.

10729287• 4 months ago

Bunch of screws : 41.

reeredfdfdf• 4 months ago

I believe in this case regulation would work just fine. My old Macbook Pro from 2012 was just as solid and high quality as the newest models, but much more repairable. It's possible to create repairable devices without compromising much in other areas.

9999000009994• 4 months ago

This was my first thought too.

Not everything you personally dislike needs to be illegal.

MacBooks are great as long as you have the money. OP could keep looking for 3rd party repairs, etc.

streetfighter648• 4 months ago

Not everything you personally dislike needs to be illegal.

I'm having a hard time seeing why making stuff more difficult to repair just so that people are incentivized to throw it away and buy a new one, should not be illegal. If not for the anti-customer attitude, at least for the amount of waste and environmental destruction it results in.

skywhopper• 4 months ago

Regulation is the only reasonable answer to this sort of problem. The specific suggestion may not be the best possible regulation, but we have several hundred years of proof that individual market-based action cannot solve what is basically an insurance problem.

bluegatty• 4 months ago

"No, this is a bad solution. If you want a repairable machine, buy one."

Fair to push back ... but your assertion implies one of the greater fallacies of free markets.

Free markets don't magically work like that.

When there are only a handful of participants in any given market, they don't provide all the options as we would like.

It's 100% true that Apple makes some 'good tradeoffs' for build quality - but it's also 100% true that they make tradeoffs for vendor lockin.

Lightning connectors are great examples of that.

The answer may be regulation. It depends, and it has to be careful.

While it's a very 'iffy' situation with respect to keyboards, if we move the conversation to 'batteries' you can see how we might want regs that enable some way for consumers to mechanically replace batteries - and definitely 3rd party repair - and plausibly enable standard 3rd party batteries.

These companies have incredibly monopoly and monopoly power, they reason their margins are so high is partly because of demand, but also because of 'market power' which can significantly distort innovation (think apps on iPhone, totally captured market etc).

Unfortunately it's never so easy as 'always regulate or always not'.

wolvoleo7• 4 months ago

No, this is a bad solution. If you want a repairable machine, buy one.

It's a good solution. Even if you don't want to repair your meachine, it would be worth more on the second-hand market meaning less ewaste for society in general.

One of the things macbook users praise the most is "build quality", which often means the solidity of the device, lack of flex, etc. These quality features are, in part, achieved by the same choices that make it hard to repair. Ease of repair and "build quality", are to some degree (although not entirely) tradeoffs against each other.

The neo gets pretty glossy build quality reviews and is one of the most repairable macs in decades.

fuzzfactor3• 4 months ago

Before Apple ever came along, failure to engineer in all kinds of extreme repairability was a recognized hallmark of unsuitability for mission-critical applications. Widely distributed repair manuals were of course table-stakes too.

Woz was well-aware of this from HP's legendary performance at the time.

It's just not easy to stay on the most correct path when there are so many shiny distractions.

Now the Neo sounds like a step in the right direction.

one of the most repairable macs in decades.

With the Neo they could be jumping right back on the right path from a distance. Which is an improvement but it does also show they could have been doing it the entire time if they had the serious commitment to mission-critical users.

The only real way for it to be a game-changer is if they actually change their game :)

mrob• 4 months ago

Consumer choice only works when there's a free market. Computer systems are encumbered by copyright and patent monopolies, so there's no free market. I can't buy a third-party Macbook. Because these monopolies are granted by the state it's reasonable for the state to correct any market failures they cause with regulation.

mentalgear• 4 months ago

I was hoping with the new Replaceable Battery Law from the EU entering this summer, all (i)Phones and tablets were to become easily repairable / battery swap-able. I was super disappointed learning recently, when considering why the new iPads weren't build to be easily open-able like the new Macbook Neo, that there's a pretty big loophole the lobby got in: if you can proof your battery lasts for 1000 cycles with 80% capacity remaining, you can exempt yourself and still seal the device in a user not-openable fashion.

(btw: people claiming that it has to be this way because of "waterproof": just no. Devices have existed before the whole glue sealing non-sense Apple introduced and exist now that are equally waterproof without glueing it all together to keep user's from the hardware. And even if you think it is that, it still wouldn't make sense to glue laptops and desktop pcs together who don't even claim to be waterproof)

At least there is a bright side: The EU Repairability Law is still pushing companies to make their devices more repairable - by demanding that professional repair must be possible from independent professionals and tech manufacturers must also provide repair parts for x years.

dahcryn• 4 months ago

also, let's not conflate easy to repair with cheap to repair.

The macbook is quite easy to repair, it's just insanely expensive because they made the choice that, for user experience, they attach the keyboard to the machines body.

You can have ease of repair and build quality, but then you give up portability I guess (bulky and heavy). And also cost goes up

nandomrumber4• 4 months ago

No.

You are wrong.

There are Apple laptops, and other devices, that were relatively easy to service and were lauded for their build quality.

yokoprime• 4 months ago

this is such a classic american reply. "vote with your wallet" and "the market decides". thing is most people don't care, don't complain or are not in a situation where they can "vote with their wallet". truth is, some regulation must exist to nudge companies is the right direction. a good example of this is e.g disposable vapes, people love them for some reason, but they are extremely wasteful.

9rx• 4 months ago

Trouble is that regulation isn't imposed by an omnipotent deity in the sky. In a democracy, regulation must come from the very same people who you say don't care, don't complain, and aren't willing to change their habits. Given that you say the people don't care, aren't willing to change, and perhaps even prefer the status quo, regulation isn't going to magically appear.

ryanmcbride• 4 months ago

I'd like to know what planet you live on where a single time over the last 50 years a company has done one solitary thing that was good for the consumer without having the gun of regulation against their head.

jollyllama• 4 months ago

One of the things macbook users praise the most is "build quality", which often means the solidity of the device, lack of flex, etc. These quality features are, in part, achieved by the same choices that make it hard to repair. Ease of repair and "build quality", are to some degree (although not entirely) tradeoffs against each other.

You're making an oversimplification. You could make a heavier, thicker device with those same qualities that was repairable.

mcv• 4 months ago

Unibody Macbooks had excellent build quality (except for their vulnerability to spilled drinks), but were very repairable. I don't see how build quality and repairability have to be opposites.

hliyan• 4 months ago

I assume you consider this a bad solution because the free market would always converge on the right solution(s), including reparable machines.

However, if all participants (in this case manufacturers) in a market conclude that:

(1) product B has a lower profit margin than product A, and

(2) product B is superior enough to eventually become the dominant variant and

(3) the market size is fairly static and

(4) the first mover on product B is unlikely to maintain a lead for very long,

then all participants would choose to suppess product B, even without having to resort to collusion.

Not only that, if the manufacturers consider regulation to be a market in its own right, i.e. it is available for purchase (which it de facto is in countries where lobbying is legal), then market forces will also drive regulation away from product B.

To me, this explains why some products peak in build quality sometime after innovation plateaus, and the continue to diminish over time (usually measured in decades). Some household appliances have already reached this stage. For Apple products, this phenomenon may still be in the future.

zackmorris• 4 months ago

MostlyStable, are you a deregulation zealot?

By extension, are you also an antitrust enforcement denier?

Also by extension, do you understand the term late-stage capitalism?

Because if you truly believe that regulation isn't necessary, then you are either ok with, or unaware that, unregulated capitalism ends in monopoly (or duopoly to keep up appearances). A free market only has a chance of existing under regulation, otherwise it's immediately gamed to maximize profit, which leads to runaway wealth inequality (the antithesis of a free market).

In other words, a €730 ($835) top case replacement is only allowed to exist because your worship of deregulation prevents the very competition that you yearn for.

I don't normally word my comments this strongly, but we seem to have lost our BS detectors since yours is the top comment.

Remember that it's ok to change your mind. So I'm not criticizing you, but the mindset that's allowing fundamental mistakes to not only go unchallenged, but be celebrated.

renewiltord• 4 months ago

Lol I think watching the entirety of the EU run on shitty plastic laptops that are government approved would really top the British fight against heatwaves by smearing yoghurt on their windows.

I think I’d really enjoy this. Yes, please do this.

piekvorst20• 4 months ago

s/zealot/advocate/

s/denier/opponent/

s/late-stage capitalism/socialist propaganda/

If you're asking genuinely:

1. It's wrong to assume beforehand that the other party is irrational.

2. To refute the other side, you have to engage with their strongest argument.

This is an intellectual issue, and no intellectual issue could be resolved by dismissal.

Melatonic2• 4 months ago

Then why do newer Apple devices have significantly better repairability vs older ones ? The build quality has gone down?

tracker1• 4 months ago

+1 here... Lenovo business laptops have a history of being particularly good at being user repairable.

I'm probably going to go with Framework myself whenever I do upgrade. Still using an M1 air, which suites my day to day needs, I don't develop on it, as I can remote to my desktop from anywhere.

bonyt2• 4 months ago

I replaced the keyboard MacBook Air M1 keyboard with a $20 model from Amazon and it's been going strong for a full year. I had spilled ginger ale on the original.

The board is riveted in, but there are enough screws to hold the replacement in place. Removing the board is a shockingly violent process, but it worked for me.

Keyboard: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CQBVMM3X (price has gone up).

Video of rivets breaking: https://i.tonybox.net/9f2083b218d5.mp4 (you can see I missed a screw and slightly cut my hand here too).

TobiasBerg• 4 months ago

Thanks for posting, I might attempt this if I feel brave enough one day! Mind if I link to this from the post? Could help someone in the future

bonyt2• 4 months ago

Sure - of course! Hope it can be helpful.

x0x0• 4 months ago

wow, you are not underplaying the force needed. You can hear the rivets going.

deaux• 4 months ago

I wonder if anyone has hacked it (in the "Hacker News" sense of hack) so that the above keyboard can be used in an external casing, without inserting it into the Macbook body. I'd pay a lot of money for that. The Magic Keyboard is different.

throawayonthe• 4 months ago

i mean it's pretty nice for a laptop keyboard, but i've never thought of it as good enough to use externally tbh

or do you mean integrating it into a different laptop a la framework? that could be cool, but would also have to think how much the chassey stiffness/specific construction contributes to the feel

p.s. has anybody here tried (the external) magic trackpad? the macbook trackpad is infuriatingly good

ayewo• 4 months ago

Mind sharing an Amazon link to the electric screw driver you used in your video?

Daneel_• 4 months ago

I'm fairly sure that's the iFixit precision electric screwdriver: https://www.ifixit.com/products/precision-electric-screwdriv...

streetfighter648• 4 months ago

Well done! This is the sort of "old HN" spirit that I love. Though if I ever need to do this myself I think I would try using a tiny "crowbar" to break each rivet individually, just to spare myself from cutting my hand.

StingyJelly4• 4 months ago

You can use tiny drill to drill off the rivets - much less violent. I covered everything in paper / masking tape to be able to vacuum off the metal shavings and used small dremmel like electric drill with chinese used re-sharpened pcb drillbit.

Tempest1981• 4 months ago

I missed a screw and slightly cut my hand here too

After a nasty gash from a washing machine, which impacted my typing for a week, I got a pair of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Mechanix-Wear-Utility-Gloves-Large/dp... $14, may save a doctor visit

xenadu02• 4 months ago

I recommend ANSI rated cut protection gloves: https://www.mcmaster.com/9915N987/

I use them when working with sheet metal. They are high-dexterity. Thin and flexible. Steel threads are woven into the fabric. McMaster has a variety of high dexterity gloves - fingerless, insulating, cut-resistant.

sleepybrett2• 4 months ago

the macbook neo has gone back to a replaceable keyboard. The next line of macbookpros are appenrly getting a new case design. There is hope.

0xbadcafebee• 4 months ago

This is like complaining that BMW maintenance is expensive.

aurareturn7• 4 months ago

No this isn't even like that. Frameworks are 2x the price of a Macbook without the performance, battery life, build quality, screen quality, touch pad, speakers, etc.

If Apple is the BMW here, what is Framework? It's definitely not a Toyota.

contingencies• 4 months ago

I strongly recommend not buying a Macbook and instead hacking a mini: https://github.com/vk2diy/hackbook-m4-mini ... cheaper and restores control of peripheral selection and replacement. That is to say "such a system will last ~forever instead of ~3 years [when the first major component dies and replacement costs ~70% of a new Apple product]". Particularly with Asahi Linux progressing so quickly. https://asahilinux.org/ Without Asahi Linux I would not buy a Mac in 2026.

I too looked at Framework and like the idea, unfortunately in my case the supply chain was too slow to be tolerable, before even considering the price-performance ratio.

I strongly support the idea that the EU should force vendors to make consumer device repairs cost-effective and available or open source and expose their component interfaces in exchange for the right to sell in Europe. After all, the EU brought us USB-C, so we know regulatory pressure works. Thanks, EU!

coldsunrays• 4 months ago

order a replacement keyboard, take the laptop apart, replace the keyboard and good to go

That’s all it took with my Framework laptop, and I’m very grateful for it. I was in a good place financially when I got it, but now I’m not. I feel a strong sense of relief that if an accident occurs and I need a repair, it won’t set me back too much.

hermitcrab• 4 months ago

The trackpad on my 2.5 year old Macbook Air stopped working. Apple wanted over £400 to fix it. Thankfully I found a local guy who did it for a fraction of that. Screw Apple.

heelix• 4 months ago

Had a similar experience with the XPS series. Was able to find a keyboard. When taken apart, realized they had used plastic bits, tape, and other things to connect the keyboard to the top lid. Seems they expected one to either be handy with epoxy or buy the combo.

bluedino• 4 months ago

I thought the keys were replaceable now?

(first video I found on a search)

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WYT7YIh00Xk

I know in the Butterfly days those keys would break when you removed them.

Tade04• 4 months ago

Far more likely it's an electrical contact issue.

charcircuit• 4 months ago

It would have been cheaper if the author would have bought AppleCare.

EteenSMASH• 4 months ago

Buy a framework bro

Tade04• 4 months ago

I say “stopped working”, but technically it works too well now, it is being pressed constantly, which makes the laptop pretty unusable.

I had this problem in my Framework. I fixed it by... holding the laptop upside down and mashing the offending key for several minutes. Didn't work immediately, but now you wouldn't tell that it was ever broken. I've managed to panic-order (~€80) another keyboard though, so now I have a spare.

For context a laptop keyboard is build like this:

https://www.iqsdirectory.com/articles/membrane-switch/membra...

This problem is caused by the layers sticking together. In the case of the Framework 16 the "d" key sits on top of a foam pad which in turn is placed on top of a heat pipe, so this area gets particularly hot under load. The layers are often made from PET, which starts softening anywhere in the range of 65-87C - so easily within range of a laptop heat pipe.

By mashing the key I was hoping to detach the layers and apparently it worked.

That being said for gaming I use an external keyboard now, because the one built-in is made by an external supplier and I don't think they'll start using a more heat-resistant material anytime soon.

TacticalCoder• 4 months ago

Apple is disgusting from that standpoint. I have my MacBook Air M1's screen break overnight (the "bendgate"), without any reason, after 13 months. I didn't buy the extended two years warranty. I was one-month off warranty. On a MacBook Air M1 I paid something like 1000 EUR VAT included (don't remember the exact price but in that ballpark), they were asking 700 EUR to fix the screen.

I still just ordered a MacMini M4 (I know the M5 is coming but we've got something like 20 computers at home, including servers, NUCs, laptops, desktop, etc. so I may not mind buying a M5).

Still... Apple, from the bottom of my heart: FUCK YOU.

koinedad• 4 months ago

I use right command + HJKL with karabiner and use it way too much, typing on someone else’s keyboard really throws me off but it’s great for my daily usage

h4kunamata• 4 months ago

No symphaty!!!

Apple has been doing this since forever and people keep buying its hardware.

You cannot replace a screen even if you buy a genuine one because Apple locks hardware ID via firmware, so only they can replace that!

Apple own customer is the reason why Apple does what it does best: You rent your hardware, you don't and never will own an Apple hardware!!

commandersaki2• 4 months ago

Things may change. Macbook Neo keyboard is straight-forward to replace.

bitfilped• 4 months ago

Sure it's a giant PITA, but it's not expensive to repair if you do the labor yourself. Parts for macbook are easy to comeby since Apple decentralizes repairs so heavily.

erelong• 4 months ago

Sounds like another (common) Apple L and reason to avoid all Apple products

evolighting• 4 months ago

Over a decade ago, my father would fix washing machine controllers, replacing mechanical timers, buttons, panels, or other parts; Now, for the same problem, we just need to replace a control circuit board; the circuit board itself is sealed with adhesive for waterproofing, which also means the circuit board is not repairable.

Maintainability is actually not a mandatory standard, but a design trade-off; the biggest problem with the MacBook is not this, but rather that Apple does not allow other means of repairing the MacBook, such as various certification chips, etc.;

timvdalen• 4 months ago

€780 is 1/5th of the price of a laptop?

tln• 4 months ago

That jumped out at me as well.

It is not hard to spec a Macbook Pro to $4000+ though

I'm a little skeptical of the top case cost - iFixit has these ranging from $90 to $160 usually. The most expensive I found was $299.

Maybe the author meant the entire repair would cost €780.

riffraff• 4 months ago

I have a broken left key and went with karabiner too. I still plan to take the laptop to assistance at some point and try to get it a deep clean up and maybe that will help.

Otherwise fuck apple I'm not paying 700+ to fix a key.

userbinator3• 4 months ago

They do this by riveting the entire keyboard assembly to the top case. Meaning you can’t just replace the keyboard, you have to replace the entire top case.

As others have already alluded to, drills and self-tapping screws exist, as do replacement keyboards without the top case.

In many other machines, it is common for the factory to use rivets on initial assembly, but to service you drill them out and replace with bolts or screws. This is the expected procedure and even described in the service manual. I actually did this a few weeks ago for an old fan.

I'm advocating for right to repair as anyone else, and not fond of Apple's decisions in general, but this seems like a tempest in a teapot.

kristianp2• 4 months ago

In many other machines, it is common for the factory to use rivets on initial assembly, but to service you drill them out and replace with bolts or screws

That's surprising. I haven't had many brands of laptops, but I haven't seen rivets where screws should be. Not talking about Macs here.

userbinator3• 4 months ago

Not talking about laptops but machinery in general.

skyberrys• 4 months ago

I'm glad to hear you are able to fix it with software for now. So many people can't just do that though and it is ridiculously expensive to have it repaired.

Any purchase is a gamble, macs are one of those gambles that seems more risky with its difficulty to repair, however I guess the expectation is that it's less likely to need it.

elcapitan• 4 months ago

I have a Framework that I love and bought for that exact reason, but recently Lenovo seems to have upped their repairability game again as well:

https://de.ifixit.com/News/115827/new-thinkpads-score-perfec...

zahma• 4 months ago

Finally got my $45 payout from the last class action suit against Apple for the butterfly keyboard fiasco. Seems like Apple didn’t learn the overarching lesson here: keyboards have to be robust and replaceable because they frequently need replacement.

bengale• 4 months ago

I’ll remember this experience and choose to buy a more repairable laptop like a ThinkPad or a Framework laptop.
Here’s hoping governments regulate laptop manufacturers to actually make repairable machines in the future.

So there is already a solution on the market but for some reason the immediate desire is for the government to get involved and start regulating laptop keyboards?

zhanxw2• 4 months ago

I had the same issue and now I cannot use "F" and "Right arrow". It is a smart idea to disabled the right arrow key and mapped capslock + J K L I !

zhanxw2• 4 months ago

fyi. The keyboard in my last MacBook Pro also failed. Apple Store charged ~$500 to fix it.

automatic6131• 4 months ago

mapped capslock + J K L I

This is such a good idea that it makes other peoples machines nearly useless for you

All credit to https://tonsky.me/blog/cursor-keys/

omarqureshi• 4 months ago

FWIW the Macbook Air is slightly more repairable and modern ones are decent enough to do work on without the display limitations of prior non-pro apple silicon. As a travel machine, I shy away from the Pro because of how poor it is to repair.

Unfortunately a Macbook is a hard requirement for travel simply because of battery life, at my desk I use my Windows gaming rig for work.

internet_points• 4 months ago

I remember being so disappointed with Apple back when I had a Macbook and the Apple store people were like "nah, if you spilled stuff on it you just buy a new macbook"

eviks• 4 months ago

After thinking about it for a bit I decided to remap all the arrow keys using Karabiner Elements . I disabled the right arrow key and mapped capslock + J K L I. And donated $10 to the project. A small price to pay to postpone a very expensive repair bill.

Great idea! Though I'd suggest to use RightCmd instead of Capslock, it's more ergonomic - you use your right hand just like before.

(and yes, it's both insane that the hardware is not repairable and that the OS software sucks so you have to use some other apps)

chakintosh• 4 months ago

I was gonna suggest to the author to lobotomize the key, but Karabiner is a viable fix too.

mmunj• 4 months ago

Had an issue with a broken keycap hinge a couple of years ago. Went to local Apple store and they also told me it's a whole motherboard replacement. Got the keycap + hinge from Aliexpress for $2. :/

wolvoleo7• 4 months ago

I'm sure this is failure by design. A lot of customers will think "Hey well, this one's got a few years on it, good reason to upgrade"

It's worth mentioning that the Neo finally does away with the pairing of topcase and keyboard that has been present ever since the launch of the plastic and unibody macbooks! Probably to comply with upcoming EU regulations.

4fterd4rk• 4 months ago

The planned obsolescence conspiracy theories about the company whose products famously last longer and hold more value than their competitors ring a little hollow.

Night_Thastus2• 4 months ago

I've never seen any evidence that either of those are true.

However, it's not planned obsolescence either. It's just math. Building things to be repairable costs more money and time. There is very little incentive to do so, because most customers simply do not care. Thus, Apple does not bother. Nothing conspiratorial about it.

itsthecourier• 4 months ago

so this happened to me some years ago. visited a local shop and they wanted to change the whole board. went to Los Angeles, visited an apple store, got an appointment. went back again to the appointment brought the MacBook, they said the same.

went to ebay bought the key, replaced it with tweezers after removing it from above without disabling the keyboard (I know, a little brutish) and it worked again for years.

give it a try

SpaghettiX• 4 months ago

I had the same issue with a different key on 2 separate macs. A 1 and a 2 year old MacBook pro. 95% of the time I'm WFH using magic external keyboard, which also has the same problem so I bought a new one. Keyboards are a massive problem at apple.

Grisu_FTP3• 4 months ago

While i think the usecase of a Macbook and a Framework are really different i will always be thankfull to framework for how easy they make it.

Broke my keyboard, a few days later i had a new one that didnt even take a minute to swap. Wanted to upgrade my GPU twice, didnt even take 10 minutes. Biggest difficulty was swapping the motherboard, but even that was easy.

The ports i need change all the time, and i can just swap them all the time :D

While a framework might be a bit expensive, overpriced even, i think the repairability and upgradeability is worth it for me

hbn• 4 months ago

I'd be curious to see hardware failure rates of Framework vs MacBooks.

Sure you can replace the keyboard on a Framework fairly easily but I'd bet MacBook users run into the need for it less (comparing modern models; we all know the butterfly keyboard era was a dark age for MacBooks)

foxyv• 4 months ago

Consumer reports seems to agree. Although I'll take mostly reliable and repairable over very reliable and not repairable. Stuff happens after all.

Grisu_FTP3• 4 months ago

It seems to be definitly higher but their support always just send a replacement with no issues to me.

My first GPU had an issue where the fans had a really annoying whirring sound and it got replaced.

I had a (pre-)release motherboard (one of the last FW16 pre-order batches) which had an issue with uneven heat on the CPU, also got replaced.

In both cases i could just use the Laptop like normal until the new parts arrived so i had no "downtime"

port113• 4 months ago

A Framework running a sane version of macOS would be peak computing for me.

Not that repairability isn’t great, but in 16 years of Apple devices my only needed repair was their atrocious butterfly-style keyboard, and Apple footed the bill thanks to the Class Action Lawsuit.

We merely have to wait on Apple to continue debasing its OS, and then many other options will look preferable. Or perhaps Linux on Apple Silicon will eventually become stable.

Melatonic2• 4 months ago

That is sort of what we got when people were making Hackintoshes out of Thinkpads a few years ago. Great keyboards, great repairablity and upgradeability, etc.

karussell• 4 months ago

Linux on Apple Silicon is already stable and nice if you accept a few downsides: only M1 & M2 so far, max 8h on battery ('office usage'), max 30h with closed lid ('sleep'), external display via hdmi and no touch ID.

jen205• 4 months ago

a few days later i had a new one

This really sums up the reason I stuck with MacBook hardware even during the dark days of the end of the Intel era: I can have a new MacBook in basically any moderately developed city in the world inside an hour, and in fact did so twice when something catastrophic happened on work trips. Waiting a few days to fix something or get some custom-order-only laptop would not have been an option.

Grisu_FTP3• 4 months ago

Well even if my Framework would explode it wouldnt be THAT big of a deal to me, i would just move over to my ps5 or steamdeck for the time and since i dont really go outside i would have to wait for the shipment anyway. Only scenario where it would be troubling is if it happened during the rare weeks where i am not home due to being a bit away in school but even then i dont think i would just buy an entirely new laptop and instead just write on paper for the 3-4 remaining days.

So for me fixing a keyboard i spilled cola on fast, cheap and without sending the device away is far far far more important than replacing an entire laptop when it disintegrates into dust.

roryirvine• 4 months ago

That level of service is far from universal - Apple don't do onsite repairs at all in the UK, let alone inside 1 hour. It's all random third parties with crappy return-it-to-the-shop as a fallback.

dhbradshaw• 4 months ago

Had a broken key on my m2 air that I couldn't easily fix. Took it to an Apple store and a tech worked on it for a bit and came back with it fixed.

No charge. I was pretty grateful!

lightedman• 4 months ago

This is what you get when you purchase Apple products. Nothing new here, I had to deal with this back in the G3/G4 days when the laptops were so stupidly-locked you couldn't even apply security updates.

Overpriced COTS garbage.

sigio• 4 months ago

That's why I only buy Thinkpads from the business/professional lines... Replaced the keyboard om my t480 for $24, and replacing it myself was a 2 minute job (2 screws, pop 2 connectors, replace, and put back together).

amluto• 4 months ago

At least some Thinkpads also have an actual drain: if you spill a not-especially-corrosive liquid on it, you should be okay — the liquid will drain through a channel and out a drain hole on the bottom of the laptop.

TasteTheCrush• 4 months ago

I am sure there's a video guide on how to do it on your own. But actually, your solution is also quite good.

charles_f• 4 months ago

My camera started malfunctioning lately (because tropicalized doesn't mean you can use it in tropical weather). It worked, but when I switched batteries I had to wait a minute for whatever capacitor was blown to discharge before it would boot again.

I sent it back for repair to the manufacturer, they gave me an "estimate" that it wouldn't be repairable, and generously offered a replacement with a refurbished one, at $10 off the price of new (plus shipping, of course). I declined the "repair" and asked for the camera back.

When it arrived, the stickers I had put around made it clear it hadn't even been open. Having seen enough Louis Rossmann, I brought it to a camera shop around which is doing microsoldering. They replaced a single capacitor (after making me sign papers that it would probably never work again, and charging me quite a bit - still better than wasting an otherwise perfectly functional camera). The unrepairable camera was repaired.

It is so disappointing and unsurprising that a manufacturer wouldn't put even remotely any effort into actual repairs, that a street shop with actual expertise will happily do. I've come to expect no expertise from any service department I communicate with. Sending something for repair is almost a sure way that it will be broken even further. When even replacing the top case in the example of that mac seems overkill, when they could probably replace the faulty key with skill and will.

I guess that's a matter of incentives, given that in mass market, repairability is not something people look into when shopping.

gandreani• 4 months ago

I had the opposite happen to me. I made the same assumption when my GPU broke (it was 2-3 months old). I thought I'll save time and spend some more money to have it repaired in a local shop instead of sending it back to the manufacturer.

Turns out it was a fatal irreparable failure. A capacitor overheated and left a small crater on the surface. Because I took it to the shop, the warranty sticker was void. Had to buy a whole new GPU :(

chrismorgan3• 4 months ago

An anecdote on third-party keyboard replacements.

I have an ASUS Zephyrus G15 (2021), GA503QM. I’ve been using it extremely heavily for five years. After about three years the left arrow key gradually stopped working. I adapted. Some keys have become a little less reliable, too, most notably E, and it’s nowhere near as crisp as it was when new. But it’s still a decent keyboard, which definitely wasn’t the case for two of my three previous laptops after even three years.

Anyway, a couple of weeks ago I tried getting a replacement keyboard on Amazon, not clearly identified as inauthentic (looks identical to the original; perhaps you should guess it, as a brand name is attached, WeFly in this case; but I know some of these things do claim to be genuine parts despite that). Worst new keyboard I have ever even heard of, barring those dumb roll-up keyboards. F2 a little sticky, have to press it straight. F and J requiring firm pressing to activate. Space not activating at the ends. And maybe worst of all, 2KRO (the original is NKRO!), with horrific ghosting. When you touch-type, you frequently have three keys active at once. Typing “you” would get a bonus F11 activation around half the time. “he ” a bonus N activation. Mashing the keyboard put the laptop to sleep, which doesn’t even make sense, and badly messed up key pressed state (though that’s possibly a software problem). Some combinations activated keys which don’t even exist, like Numpad 0.

With difficulty I was able to return it and get my money back. (I also got a refund on a counterfeit battery purchased at the same time—branded Wistar but unquestionably labelled as a genuine ASUS part, it was labelled in depth as 90Wh, but reported a design capacity of 74Wh and behaved so. Not sure if you can even find that information under Windows—maybe in Device Manager? So alas, for now I’m back on my original battery which is down to 51Wh capacity.) I wrote detailed one- and two-star reviews on Amazon, which were approved, and then deleted (one same day, one after a few days) for no apparent reason.

I’m trying to talk to ASUS to see if I can get a first-party replacement, but they don’t sell them independently at least, and can’t tell me a price, so I have to try talking to the local service centre. Hopefully it’ll be possible and not too expensive. Definitely not going to try third-party again for the keyboard, though maybe for the battery I’ll try one clearly marked as third-party.

Since reinstalling the original keyboard last week, a few days ago both Control keys stopped working, and the right tweeter (which gradually died a year or two ago) has started producing white noise when powered up. I should try reseating cables and such. It’s definitely fairly invasive surgery to replace the keyboard. The keyboard, incidentally, is fastened to the case by about 70 tiny screws (mine had 71 holes but only 69 screws). For now, I mapped Right Shift to Right Control, and have since been discovering that I used Right Shift more often than I realised!

BatteryMountain4• 4 months ago

You know what this means right? Turn this old man into a server (remove battery for safety). It will work for many more years.

chrismorgan3• 4 months ago

I was planning on building a PC toward the end of last year, but several life things and the need for an inverter (I live in India now, and power is regularly off for hours) complicated and delayed it, and when I came back to it in December, RAM had got super expensive, and I just couldn’t justify the 50% increase in total price. Now if this laptop stopped working more…

BatteryMountain4• 4 months ago

Why would someone down vote this comment? Its perfectly reasonable to reuse old hardware with broken components (screens, keyboards) into server/passive devices that sits in the corner and still being useful, instead of going to the trash. Removing old battery is good advice as they are a fire hazard if you keep them plugged in and they are degraded - best to remove it completely and run the laptop off main power and/or add an external UPS if you can afford it.

Please let me know why this specific comment was down voted.

mezod• 4 months ago

been there, done that

unfortunately, the karabiner workaround will work for a little while, but the rest of the keys will start failing until it's impossible to remap the keys :/

gwbas1c• 4 months ago

For me, for day-to-day usage, I sit at a desk and use an external keyboard. The ergonomics of working directly on a laptop aren't very good for extended periods of time.

Case in point: I don't put a lot of stress on my laptop keyboards.

mhjkl2• 4 months ago

What exactly broke? I had this problem recently and thought the keyboard was done for, but turns out you can also replace the switches (not keycaps) and that solved the issue in my case. You have to be very careful though since it is very easy to break the switch or key cap if you remove it incorrectly (this happened to me while I was trying to clean the keyboard)

8bitsrule• 4 months ago

I'm reminded of my surprise when my Mac's 'super' (their name) floppy drive quit working because the CPU fan was pulling air through it all day. Post 90-day warranty, the replacement cost at the time was 1/5 of what the machine cost.

IMO, Apple hardware was never the company's strong point. And they refused to supply individual replacement parts.

steve-atx-7600• 4 months ago

Suggest https://rossmanngroup.com/ unless you know how to do the repair yourself. A trustworthy not-apple-certified shop can do a repair cheaper by replacing fewer parts. Rossman doesn’t charge unless they’re able to fix the device - even if it takes them some time to look at it.

kuzivaai• 4 months ago

Been there with M1 Air. I needed to change my keyboard but the build made it unbelievably challenging.

My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

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