Rivian's TM-B electric bike

https://www.theverge.com/news/804157/rivian-tm-b-electric-bike-price-specs-helmet-quad

by hasheddan • 9 months ago

252 452 9 months ago

theverge.com

ZeroGravitas• 9 months ago

I walked past a near identical delivery quad to their TM-Q not an hour ago.

sampton• 9 months ago

The kid carrier looks dangerously top heavy.

ourguile• 9 months ago

Very interesting, really liking the swappable components in the quad. I'm a big cyclist but have been looking for something new to take around for commuting that isn't a scooter.

Great to see more manufacturers getting in on micromobility options.

iotsloppyo2• 9 months ago

Reeks of Juicero.

NFS lock and unlock. GPS locator. Capacitance touchscreen controls. Hydraulic disc brakes.

Companion helmet with wirelessly connected brake lights, and noise cancelling(?!) speakers.

Why do we need to learn the same lessons over and over again?

karlgkk• 9 months ago

What? lol

The issue with juicero is that their hardware design was needlessly and insanely over complicated, like magnitudes past anything I’m seeing here - and they DRMd something that didn’t need to be DRMd (juice)

For this bike, those are features people regularly want in e-bikes and cost very little to add - the bike already needs a capable cpu for battery management and acceleration curve controlling.

These are features that people differentiate these pseudo motorcycles on. “We” have learned the lesson.

The helmet is very juicero tho

interstice• 9 months ago

I wouldn’t lump disk brakes in with the rest of those, maybe the hydraulic part is overkill though.

mortenjorck• 9 months ago

The $999 Lectric XP4 has hydraulic disc brakes. While uncommon at that price point, it's not unusual to see them on $1500-2k e-bikes.

fiatpandas• 9 months ago

Hydraulic disc brakes aren't really overkill on an e-bike, it's a safety thing. You really don't want to skimp out on stopping power when your heavy bike has a powerful motor.

stronglikedan• 9 months ago

maybe the hydraulic part is overkill though

Not for an e-bike it isn't. In fact, I'd say if you're not rocking hydraulic brakes on an e-bike, you're asking for a bad time. I know that most lower end e-bikes don't come with them standard, but to me, it's a necessary and immediate upgrade for safety.

peanut-walrus• 9 months ago

Non-hydraulic discs suck. You get better braking power out of decent rim brakes.

toss1• 9 months ago

Hydraulic disc brakes are not overkill with a bike of that mass [0] and power. Disc brakes are very common mountain bikes or any type where there is a lot of braking as caliper/rim brakes can overheat and pop the tires, so this unit should definitely have disc brakes. Hydraulic is better than cable/mechanical as hydraulic can generate more braking power, have better feel, and stay in better adjustment. The only downside vs cable+disc is cable is more repairable in the field.

[0] (overall specs indicate a lot of weight, Rivian are not proud enough of any lightweighting to even print the weight, and their autos are also very heavy, indicating a lack of lightweight engineering discipline in that shop which may carry over to their other mobility solutions)

vel0city• 9 months ago

Having hydraulic disc brakes on a bicycle like this isn't something odd. Tons of regular bicycles have them these days.

The only kind of weird thing I see here is the idea the pedals aren't actually directly connected to the drive train, they just turn a generator.

thrill2• 9 months ago

That’s going to separate force-applied from force-required while riding - a much more comfortable pedal action.

dsr_• 9 months ago

Hydraulic brakes are great. I have them on two bikes and would certainly buy them again.

The bike cost nowhere near $4500 and certainly doesn't have any "smart" integration other than a holder for my phone, which I added myself for $13.

pchew• 9 months ago

There's literally thousands of e-bikes with touch screens and it would be unsafe for a bike of this weight to have anything other than hydraulic disc brakes, which are the standard for just about anything that isn't a road bike these days. Locator also pretty common even on $1,000 ebikes.

But yes, other stuff seems to be features for the sake of features.

dreamcompiler8• 9 months ago

E-bikes with properly adjusted mechanical disc brakes are perfectly safe, and mechanical brakes are easy to adjust yourself without the need to take them to a bike shop. It's the discs that are important -- not whether they are mechanical or hydraulic.

kulahan• 9 months ago

A touchscreen on a primarily-outdoor device makes no sense to me. It's just a single point of failure for fanciness. Transit safety should be taken more seriously, with controls you can operate by feel, rather than vision. It's not important if lots and lots of companies include this single point of failure.

Edit: also, don't capacitive screens kinda suck if they get a little wet? like what, you just can't use the screen controls while it's raining without risking unlocking your seat 40,000 times in a half second due to a stray raindrop sitting on the screen? Feels like resistive would explicitly be superior here. You probably don't need huge accuracy for what should ideally be a spacious display anyways.

dreamcompiler8• 9 months ago

There's nothing wrong with hydraulic disc brakes on an e-bike, except that hydraulic brakes are hard to maintain yourself without special tools. All e-bikes need disc brakes, period. Any e-bike (or any merely heavy bike) is unsafe without disc brakes. Whether those brakes are mechanical or hydraulic doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that they use discs.

Jblx2• 9 months ago

What does "NFS" stand for in this context?

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/NFS

kelnos• 9 months ago

I think they meant NFC (as in Near Field Communication).

blacksmith_tb3• 9 months ago

A typo for NFC seems likely.

tekacs• 9 months ago

They mean NFC, I think.

iotsloppyo2• 9 months ago

Yup, typo and unable to edit the comment now.

NFC, Near Field Communication.

wolrah• 9 months ago

I'm with you on the automatic lock/unlock and full-touch controls, I don't like either of those design choices in cars and I don't want them in a bike either.

That said a GPS locator is great on an e-bike. They're high value theft targets, anything that makes them harder to steal, easier to track, or otherwise reduces the appeal of stealing one is a good thing.

Hydraulic disc brakes are a great thing even on non-electronic bikes. I won't buy another bike without them. My hardtail mountain bike, gravel bike, and e-cruiser are all hydraulic discs.

dilyevsky• 9 months ago

ah yes hydraulic disk brakes on like 80lbs bike is exactly like juicero

cols• 9 months ago

Hydraulic disc brakes are table stakes for a mountain or gravel bike nowadays. Dual or preferably quad piston calipers on a big rotor make a significant difference when it comes to stopping power.

vjvjvjvjghv2• 9 months ago

To me this looks like how people who never use a bike imagine a good bike. I am ok with the brakes but the rest just makes the bike more complex and expensive with possible planned obsolescence. I don't want to deal with firmware updates for my bike.

tim33310• 9 months ago

I wonder if you can still ride it if they turn their server off?

"activates and deactivates when the rider is nearby"

sounds iffy like that. I was riding a Forest bike yesterday where the user app and bike both have to connect to Forest's servers and it's kind of a pain.

soco4• 9 months ago

Bear with me I don't know much about bikes but I have this honest question: why does it need a chain, and won't place the engine (or whatever gear box it has) directly on the wheel?

SirFatty• 9 months ago

So it will appear as a bicycle and be allowed on paths in parks (is what I'm guessing).

Stedag• 9 months ago

It's a backup so that if you do lose power, you can still pedal home. Major pain to pedal an 80 lb fixed gear bike, but This is standard on ebikes and doesn't contribute much weight or cost in itself.

STKFLT2• 9 months ago

The biggest reason is minimizing unsprung mass, the performance of the rear suspension would be much worse with a hub motor.

Groxx• 9 months ago

does that actually matter much on anything except dirt-bike tracks, or trying to go 40mph on a horrifically bumpy track? minus some comfort advantage, of course.

like technically, sure, it's obviously true. but for performance it only really matters when you would get air time with higher mass, and the lower mass stays in contact more. commuter e-biking generally doesn't get anywhere near those speeds or bump-sizes. (trail biking: sure! I 100% believe it's a sizable consideration there)

soco4• 9 months ago

Not all e-bikes have a rear suspension, so the motor will feel the bumps either way pretty much the same, I would guess. Or being placed in the middle halves somewhat the shocks?

jfim• 9 months ago

It's not clear if their design allows for it from the details in the article, but you'd want a chain in case you run out of battery so you can pedal manually.

bullfightonmars• 9 months ago

Putting the motor into the wheel makes for an excellent riding experience, I have a Bionx rear wheel (out of business) that is connected to the chain ring and pedals in the traditional way. The wheel detects torque from pedaling and applies it's own torque to drive the wheel. It can be used with and without power and feels almost seamless and is silent.

Unfortunately it seems to be difficult to engineer and build these wheel motors for reliability and longevity. They significanly increase the unsprung mass of the wheel which leads to increased wear on the hub components.

roadside_picnic• 9 months ago

Dirt bikes and many motorcycles also have chains, this allows you to change gears to adjust torque (alternatives include shaft and belt drives).

E-bikes can have the motors on the wheel (hub-drive) or on the pedal (mid-drive). This choice is largely related to how much you want your e-bike to really be a scooter or really be providing pedal assist. As a consequence hub-drive e-bikes typically have a throttle while mid-drive do not.

A good mid-drive e-bike really makes it feel like you are a super human cyclist rather than riding a scooter. It leads to a much smoother riding experience if your aim is to still be essentially bicycling but you'd like to get moving faster and not break a sweet even on the most extreme hills.

pqtyw2• 9 months ago

A good mid-drive e-bike really makes it feel like you are a super human cyclist

Of course. But the pedals on this thing aren't even connected to the drivetrain. So what is the benefit in this specific case?

dreamcompiler8• 9 months ago

I have a couple of mid-drive e-bikes (Bafang motors) with throttles. Throttled mid-drives let you get the best of both worlds: Great pedal assist combined with the ability to just be a scooter when you get tired. And I agree that mid-drive is the way to go if you want to ride on hills. If you commute in San Francisco for example, a hub drive e-bike will not help you much but a mid-drive will change your life.

soco4• 9 months ago

I could imagine (not necessarily feasible!) the pedals only moving a dynamo with variable resistance to mimic real world pedaling, and the hub drive doing the drive according to the pedaling speed? Would that be a scooter or a e-bike, according to norms?

jlhawn7• 9 months ago

mid-drive e-bikes like this one are generally more expensive also but more efficient than rear hub motor systems. They also provide better overall weight distribution.

jlhawn7• 9 months ago

a full suspension e-bike, 500+Wh battery, with a belt drive for $4,500 is honestly a really good deal. There is a shortage of options when it comes to full-suspension bikes that are good for commutes. Compare this to any e-bike with the Bosch e-bike system. The big risk here for consumers if whether they can match the service, support, and reliability that Bosch has. There appears to be a class-2 e-bike option which is something that significantly differentiates it from bikes with the Bosch system.

givemeethekeys2• 9 months ago

"Honestly" does not make it a "really good" deal.

It's an e-bike. The competition is stiff, better looking, and better priced.

If they're lucky, this will appeal to university professors and over achieving parents of unsuspecting kids who want a cool bike but got an expensive dorky one instead.

jlhawn7• 9 months ago

The e-bike market has multiple tiers/segments. This is not priced to compete with brands like Rad Power Bikes, Lectric, or Aventon. It's likely going to compete with brands like Tern, Benno, Gazelle, Trek, etc.

edit: ask yourself why the median new car in the US sells for over $50k when you can easily find cars for less than half that price.

qwytw2• 9 months ago

I really don't get what the point of the pedals on a thing like this, though. I guess mainly to satisfy some sort of regulations which separate bikes and motorcycle like vehicles? Considering that they aren't even connected to the drivetrain...

jlhawn7• 9 months ago

In the U.S., there are 3 classes of e-bike: Class 1: pedal-assist only up to 20mph (helmets optional for adults) Class 2: same as Class 1 but with optional throttle to 20mph Class 3: pedal-assist only up to 28mph (helmets required, adults only)

There's also a maximum power rating of 750 watts for all of these. I'm not sure where the "pedal by wire" feature is from a regulatory perspective, but to me this fits into either class 2 or 3 depending on what option you get.

sgarman• 9 months ago

Based on the video and rivian history I think they wanted to redesign from the ground up a bike to match the packaging success they had at rivian and companies like lucid vs how legacy automakers approached it. The problem is the current laws about bikes and ebikes limited them and they had to make many tradeoffs which is what we are looking at. I guess we will find it if it was worth it to go ground up vs more off the shelf. As a rivian owner I'm concerned about repair-ability and maintenance.

hoherd• 9 months ago

Some people actually do like to double up a bit of exercise with their commute.

antinomicus• 9 months ago

The article clearly states it’s class 3.

jlhawn7• 9 months ago

From the article:

It also features a throttle good for 20mph where regulations allow.

That must mean they have a class 2 option.

kibwen• 9 months ago

I was in the market for a commuter recently and my runner-up was this bike from Bulls (German brand trying to break into the US market) with full suspension, a Bosch motor, and coming in at a staggeringly light 58 lbs (battery included) for $3300. Extremely tempting, if I hadn't managed to snag a heavily-discounted Aventon Level 2 instead. https://bullsbikesusa.com/products/iconic-evo-tr-1-750

jlhawn7• 9 months ago

that's a nice bike! bummer that the rear rack isn't co-sprung.

hnav6• 9 months ago

120mm seems like an absurd amount of travel for ostensibly what is a city bike

CyberDildonics2• 9 months ago

A really good deal based on what? You can buy bikes with double the battery off amazon for a quarter of the price. What are you comparing this to?

gnarcoregrizz2• 9 months ago

you can get a high quality 4khw 20kw electric dirt bike for $4500... oh right, maybe not the best for commuting. they were fun before the cops caught on.

charles_f4• 9 months ago

Why do you need full sus on a commuter though? I think it's a gimmick that's not worth the 4500

1970-01-01• 9 months ago

Hey Dean Kamen,

See how it just becomes a bicycle when it's discharged or broken? This is much, much closer to what we expected from the Segway.

dghlsakjg2• 9 months ago

Look again. This is pedal by wire.

If it is broken the pedals will just spin because there is no mechanical link between the pedals and the parts that make the vehicle move.

JanSolo• 9 months ago

Great! Another bunch of micromobility products that nobody asked for. And the price! I can buy 6 very decent Chinese ebikes of various formats for the $4500 this thing will cost. I'm sure it will be more advanced and nicely designed, but it's just way too expensive. Bicycles are a mass-market item. Price is the primary decider. If you want to be successful, you have to be cheaper than the competition. Who is this for?

nharada• 9 months ago

Price is the primary decider

That's not even true for normal bicycles. Serious cyclists can spend massive amounts of cash on their rides.

Aside from that, if you're using this as a vehicle you want more than just the cheapest thing out there. Reliability and serviceability are important when not having the bike means you can't get to work or your kid's school.

jeffbee11• 9 months ago

By massive amounts, of course you meant "dramatically less than any car", right?

Most serious bicyclists I know, some with wonderful bikes, still spent less on their bikes than the typical American spends getting the air conditioned seats option in their F-150.

dghlsakjg2• 9 months ago

Reliability and serviceability are important when not having the bike means you can't get to work or your kid's school.

True, but this bike is completely non-standard so sort of blows that. There isn't even a direct connection between the pedals and the wheels. If the electrical bits stop responding you don't even have a bike, you have a really awkward velocipede. Every other e-bike that I have ridden or seen is still a bike when there is no power.

jauntywundrkind4• 9 months ago

The battery system here sounds so sweet. Swappable, with a respectable 0.5kWh and then an Extended Range 0.8kWh is excellent.

Usb-c chargeable at 240W is divinely sweet. Maybe maybe some day dual USB would be nice (for the ER especially) but this is quite respectable. And by not trying to super fast charge the battery will live longer anyhow.

Being removable is another nice win, if not uncommon. I don't know which other batteries provide USB power even without the bike, which again is such a great nice to have: take the bike to a park then bring with an charge some phones or what-not.

In the future I really hope we see some battery alliances, making some form factors, and centralizing on usb-c. As would be good common sense. The overlap between a bike battery and standalone Delta or Ecoflow battery power station is huge, and Rivian here seems a little further along than most at hybridizing & generalizing a battery system: obvious win to anyone paying attention!

The modularity could be a major win too. I'd love to see a an e-bike maker go down the Ford Bronco path & add a bunch of attachments points and replaceable/modular pieces to the design, and release all the specs for free use! Even if it only is Rivian and some partners doing this here, this is the way, it feels like:

The top frame of the TM-B is modular by design, so the bike can be transformed without tools into a cargo hauler, kid carrier, or cruiser with a bench seat.

Cargo haulers easily climb to the 6000$ ranges. And the massive 180NM motor here will not bat an eye!

One thing I'd love to see: a stationary bike mode. Bring it inside for the winter & do spin class, charging up the battery. The full series hybrid, no mechanical linkage, doesnt deel super super practical to be honest but it's interesting!

A lot of nice basic things that make sense. Like no longer needing special cherging equipment for reasonably good capacity chwrging (albeit most usb-c chargers will only be doing 100w for a while now, but that seems fine).

hnav6• 9 months ago

bikes are already highly "modular" in that outside of ebike motor systems you can swap most parts. Bikes like the Rivian in the article would only work if ruggedized and sold to fleets. As a consumer you'd just get something from Specialized at this price point since it won't be worthless in 2 years time.

jauntywundrkind4• 9 months ago

Agreed that bikes do often exhibit some level of modularity. But attaching a front or back cargo rack or kid carrier gets pretty finicky pretty quick: most e-bikers tend to just buy the (often quite expensive) 1st party gear, because it'll actually fit right.

This bike seems to have only a single major modular system, but it comprises such a massive part of the bike: there's a big stem-post that attaches to the drive unit. Being able to swap that stem-post out for other things allows for really big changes, imo. You could build some really cool really neat different top-sides atop this bike, with really weird cargo or kid shapes.

I would love to see smaller level modularity too. I'm really impressed by the Bronco, and how they've clearly worked very hard to make it a "car as a platform", opening up as much space as they can for aftermarket parts & 3d printing people to build everything from cup-holders/interior fixing to body-panels (dunno the best link for this, but for ex: https://thebronconation.com/more-bronco-modularity-fender-fl...). I see Rivian / Also tapping that energy here in a way that moves far beyond what bikes today offer.

Rebelgecko3• 9 months ago

USB-C support is honestly one of the most exciting features. I guess it's an efficiency/profit thing, but it's wild to me how many ebikes have weird proprietary chargers.

dmitrygr• 9 months ago

Only 28mph max speed, and the firmware might actually be properly protected from this bug being easily fixed. I'll stick to my Chinese scooters run by code-unlocked STM32F103 clones i can easily cure of such idiocy.

dreamcompiler8• 9 months ago

808Wh battery and 100 miles of range. These two numbers track with each other and are roughly believable.

OTOH, with a battery this big, a generator powered by the pedals, and regen braking this thing has to be heavy. I'd expect it to weigh at least 80 lbs. More likely 100. The fact that their "specs" say nothing about weight suggests they're embarrassed about the weight.

jeffbee11• 9 months ago

Regen braking is how you can tell this was designed by a moron. The energy balance simply does not favor regenerative braking on a bicycle, especially a bicycle that flippantly ignores aerodynamics like this one does. A bicyclist loses roughly all of their energy to air resistance. It's not a truck. There is not substantial potential energy to be recaptured going down hills.

big_toast3• 9 months ago

Not a big cyclist but is that still true for lower speed city riding (typical to flat european cycling prone countries), hillier SF, or mountain biking?

It seems obviously true to typical racing or distance scenarios. And i notice the wind even at lower speeds on e-bikes in SF.

But between their quad scenario and what I imagine as the urban car replacement scenario it doesn't seem as obvious.

edaemon3• 9 months ago

What do you mean? The regenerative braking only kicks in when you engage the brake lever. It's not going to add much range but it's free, I don't see any downside to including regenerative braking.

CorrectHorseBat2• 9 months ago

My e-bike has regen braking and it's definitely noticable, but I don't know how much it helps

mvkel• 9 months ago

Boosted Boards have regen, and in typical use, it extends range by about 10%. It was an incredibly intuitive system; instead of brakes, you regen your way to a stop.

I don't see how this would be any different. Or, it's certainly not "moronic"

Spunkie3• 9 months ago

I find regen exciting for it's ability to slow down my brake pads getting shredded every month. The fact that I get some energy back from it is mostly a bonus.

Izikiel432• 9 months ago

The energy balance simply does not favor regenerative braking on a bicycle

Here in Seattle with all the hills it might

doctoboggan2• 9 months ago

Think of regen braking as a way to save an expendable part (brake pads). Instead of dumping your kinetic energy into heating up some brake pads, you can dump your kinetic energy back into the battery. That it happens to recharge (likely only a few small percent) is just a bonus.

gnarcoregrizz2• 9 months ago

agreed. regen does nothing on my e-moto. i'll drop 5000 feet in elevation and the battery percentage doesn't go up.

dylan6044• 9 months ago

My eBike is close to 90lbs, but it is a large cargo bike touted as a "small car replacement". It is close to a tandem bike in size with a steel frame. I'm so used to it now, but I live in a house and never need to carry it up stairs. It does mean that I need an expensive bike rack to support that weight.

newsclues• 9 months ago

I lived in an apartment with only stairs where I owned a light gravel bike roughly 20 lbs and an old mtb that was about 35, and my back really felt the difference between the two.

100 lbs would be unmanageable.

aidenn04• 9 months ago

I have a 75lb cargo ebike and I'm afraid to mount it on my stand to work on it.

CorrectHorseBat2• 9 months ago

My Stromer ST3 weights about 30kg, has an 1kWh battery but doesn't come anywhere close to even 100km range at full speed.

I suspect pedal-by-wire will only be slightly heavier since it doesn't need gears, but the range will probably be even worse.

CyberDildonics2• 9 months ago

800 wh and 100 miles? There is no way anyone gets that.

800 watt hours for $4,500 is absurd too.

FpUser• 9 months ago

"808Wh battery and 100 miles of range. These two numbers track with each other and are roughly believable."

Absolutely not. Unless you have baby in a saddle and going 10mph

hamdingers2• 9 months ago

Rivian figures they can take the 149,000Wh they would've put into a $100,000 truck, split it into 186 ebikes and take home $837,000.

buenzlikoder3• 9 months ago

It's difficult to say these numbers are believable or not as they depend on speed and pedal input, but given my own experience and reading some tests/forum, they are off by 2x to 3x.

Tiktaalik• 9 months ago

Also also unveiled its Alpha Wave helmet.... It also features integrated lights and a four-speaker, wind-shielded internal audio system with two noise-canceling mics. The helmet integrates with the TM-B’s console, where music, calls, and podcasts can be controlled on the bike.

In an ideal world these would be great features to have, but in the real world, where so many places have a near complete absence of safe cycling infrastructure and bicycles are casually mixed in with giant trucks it's a bit of a scary notion to reduce your situational awareness with a great sound system and the distraction of doing your morning zoom standup while cycling to work (I've done this before lol, tho most of my commute is in separated bike lanes...).

This points to the headwinds to adoption and success of the Also, which is that so many cities are ambivalent and uninterested if not outright ideologically opposed to building safe all ages and abilities bike lanes. That sort of safe infrastructure is critical to the success of a product like this. It's really unfortunate.

bb885• 9 months ago

I've seen a lot of people use noise cancelling ear buds on roads using pedal bikes, so I don't see how this is any different really.

jakedata6• 9 months ago

I just added strips of fake fur to the straps my boring old helmet to diffuse the wind noise the same way a "dead cat" cover on a microphone does. They look a bit like muttonchops which is a bonus as far as I am concerned. I use wraparound bone conduction headphones that don't block my ears. I would be afraid of losing an expensive earbud.

calmbonsai• 9 months ago

I'm liking aspects of the design, but I'm concerned about weight and overengineering of simple stuff like the seatpost bracket.

Also, the "TM-B Reservation Token" smacks of egregious marketeering.

Still, this looks like a solid ebike.

cypherpunks01• 9 months ago

Most visibly interesting part to me is the frame design without a rear triangle (no seatstay) like a motorcycle or dirtbike.

Materials must be real strong to withstand all the torque forces without a rear triangle, right? Any other e-bikes like this?

tomekb• 9 months ago

I ride a class-3 Tern cargo bike with 400Wh battery and this range is very optimistic, especially since this is pedal-by-wire. Also what happens when the battery runs out, because you can just ride without assist on any Bosch e-bike.

blacksmith_tb3• 9 months ago

Game over with a dead battery, I would think, though I suppose it's possible that the generator you're pedaling is enough for very slow movement without the battery boost...

bb885• 9 months ago

Despite the complaints in this thread there is already a market for $4k ebikes. And people are buying them. The bike competes with a bunch of e-bikes in that price range, Evelo Omega, Bosch, etc. So they're hardly a first mover. They are optimizing that market.

hnav6• 9 months ago

yeah but what's the point? At this price point alibaba monsters are far more powerful and real bicycles far more bicycle-like. These will sell a 10-20k units and fade into obscurity like Van Moofs and other disruptive bicycles before them.

bb885• 9 months ago

People typically don't buy big ticket goods from a company named "YACCEEZY" like you might see on Amazon or Aliexpress these days.

It's worth noting that Hyundai had a similar issue when it entered the US market. It was an uphill battle to market itself to convince people to spend thousands of dollars of money on a no-name car brand.

yodon• 9 months ago

I have a 750W e-bike (which actually means 750W peak, 500W sustained).

There are hills near my house that my bike can not make it up without significant pedal assist.

If the motor and power electronics on this e-bike can only handle 750W peak, 500W sustained, as is common and I think is possibly even legislated in parts of the U.S., this bike will not be able to make it up serious hills.

With a normal e-bike, your pedaling is additive to the motor. That is not the case with this design.

derekp7• 9 months ago

If the motor is geared it could make a difference. For comparison, most people put out about 100 watts with their legs, but need to downshift to go up hills. This looks like a mid drive unit, which should be capable of varied gearing.

bb885• 9 months ago

I was looking for where the gearing was and it doesn't appear to be in the wheels. It looks like it's in the hub.

I have a bike with an automatic transmission and it handles steep hills just fine.

But generally speaking, I would expect the bike at this price point to have an automatic transmission.

masterj• 9 months ago

Given it can output 180Nm I expect this thing can get up whatever hill you point it at

sxzygz• 9 months ago

This new e-bike news drops just as Cory Ellison arrives at his mom’s in a Rivian. Great job marketing dept!

throw7• 9 months ago

"Drive by Wire"? This is not even anywhere near a "bike". At least you could argue "e-bikes" could still be pedaled without the battery. It's not that anybody would want to or even could, but an argument could be made.

PaulDavisThe1st3• 9 months ago

What I want ... not an E-bike, but an E-version of the BMW C1

Critical features: 1. moderate weather protection 2. vastly improved crash protection 3. top speed above 50mph 4. luggage capacity of a small flatbed trailer

I acknowledge the utility of e-bikes for many; for me, I prefer my non-e bike when I want to ride my bike, but would love an e-motorycle as an alternative to 80% of my car trips.

https://www.theautopian.com/bmws-first-scooter-had-a-ridicul...

a_ba• 9 months ago

You‘re in luck BMW recently presented their vision CE.

https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/experience/stories/urban-m...

PaulDavisThe1st3• 9 months ago

Sadly, no weather protection and apparently almost zero luggage capacity. But it's a very tiny step in roughly the right direction ...

dylan6044• 9 months ago

oh, those concept shots are hysterical. the one with the pink bike and the woman with 3 dogs kills, but the dj setup is where I said "too far" and closed the tab

abdullahkhalids• 9 months ago

The weather protection is great for positive temperatures - you can protect yourself from sun and rain. Unfortunately, for those in cold weather, two wheeled vehicles make little sense.

jodrellblank2• 9 months ago

NotJustBikes' latest video is titled "I'm so Sick of this Lazy Excuse (for bad cities)" and the lazy excuse is the cold or wet weather.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXDP9WQe0io

A previous video "How is a bike tunnel this freak'n great" is about urbanism and cycling in Bergen, Norway and has repeated digs at people who say you can't have good cycling infrastructure unless it's sunny and tropical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCedclz03uI

And a previous video "Why Canadians can't bike in the winter (but Finnish people can)" about the city of Oulo, Finland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

And a previous video about Oslo, Norway, "The next great cycling city"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmp09Fd07oc

He used to work in tech, I think in ATI chip design consulting, and spent time lived in Sunnyville, California, where it was always room temperature and sunny outside - the best weather anyone could ask for - and everyone still drove everywhere all the time. He travelled short and long stay consulting visits all over the world for years, in Toronto, Sunnyville, Oxford, London, Belgium, Germany, The Netherlands, Taiwan, China, and it's those experiences which gave rise to his opinions about cities and that YouTube channel

shellfishgene5• 9 months ago

And 5. no helmet necessary! They actually did make a concept version of this, the C1-E: https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/tv-footage/detail/PF00...

jakedata6• 9 months ago

$4500 is ten or more of my homebrew 750 watt electric mountain bike originally built in 2004. I just repowered with LiFePO4 after 10 years in storage and the new batteries really pull. It has a front hub motor with a throttle control limited to 20 mph. My commute is 10 miles, 6 on a dedicated bike path. Life is good.

wigglewoggle2• 9 months ago

What kind of capacity from your LFP battery? Is it diy built? I did one in the spring 16S with 25Ah cells and it's been amazing since. Only problem is it's a bit too big to fit anywhere I'd like it to. I have to mount it on a rear rack

jakedata6• 9 months ago

I am using 3x 12v 185wh batteries in series. Realistically I can count on around 500wh. They are only 3 lbs each and fit neatly within the frame of the mtb. I don't like having them up on the rear rack, they tend to make the tail of the bike wag a bit compared to low and centered.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1o0qthk/dynagirl_ri...

I just 3d printed protective covers for them last week when marketing turned their back on the new Bambu printer.

trvz• 9 months ago

My local bicycle dealer has models in the window up to 15k$. There’s a market for such priced products.

jakedata6• 9 months ago

Oh, clearly. But for that money I'd buy a really nice BMW i3 REX. Obviously not an option for everyone.

plantwallshoe3• 9 months ago

Those are high performance mountain bikes with carbon fiber frames, top of the line components, carbon wheels. This is an aluminum city commuter and 4.5k is at the high end of that class of ebike.

socalgal2• 9 months ago

the problem with $5-$15k bikes is you can't actually use them in the USA as they'll be stolen. You can commute if you have the place to keep it secure. You can not stop for some shopping on the way home though as you'll lose your bike.

IncreasePosts3• 9 months ago

The components are all probably very junky, if everything can be had for $450

jakedata6• 9 months ago

Sure if you can't DIY. It's a 20 year old Fuji chromoly-frame mountain bike with Shimano components. My biggest expense was new batteries, followed by heavy duty e-bike brake pads. What did you pay to build yours?

ezfe• 9 months ago

Why would anyone use Dropbox when you can self host a linux VM with a file share using a VPN to tunnel?

eecc• 9 months ago

Christ what an ugly kludge. Just spend a weekend in Amsterdam and check out the Tenways and the Vanmoof roaming the streets for an idea how to do it, if not right, at least decently

proee• 9 months ago

Wow, cool bike! Said nobody.

It's sad to see so much effort being put into a product that is utterly uncool. Maybe start with the design (cool) and then integrate the mechanics. This is how companies design cool cars.

NoImmatureAdHom2• 9 months ago

This is a motorcycle. It's a cycle with a motor.

I love that the popularity of motorcycling is taking off with better batteries, motors, and control systems!

It's motorcycling though :-)

webdevver• 9 months ago

inadequate suspension to be classified as a motorbike imo

hnav6• 9 months ago

In terms of travel it has as much as a normal motorcycle. Which is really absurd for a 24" bike even with those stubby crank arms.

NoImmatureAdHom2• 9 months ago

Some motorcycles don't even have rear suspension. Canonical ones, in fact. Like hardtail Harleys.

barbazoo• 9 months ago

Not affiliated but I'm looking into converting my commuter bike with a kit from https://ebikes.ca. Seems to make more sense to turn any of the million bikes out there into an electric one using a reusable kit than buying a single purpose electric bike that will end up on the landfill once the company goes bust because no one wants to push around a bike that heavy.

oulipo2• 9 months ago

Self-plug: you can take a look at our repairable and sustainable battery at https://gouach.com. If it gets depleted, it's super easy to replace cells, getting you a whole new battery for $50 (price of cells) instead of buying a new $200 - $500 battery

r0me1• 9 months ago

I disagree, I went that route and ended up regretting it. While converting a regular bike to an e-bike does work, a standard commuter bike is designed to carry a person’s weight with the center of gravity in mind. Adding an electric hub motor and a 20 lb lithium battery to a frame with cantilever brakes just feels sketchy. A properly designed e-bike typically comes with four-piston hydraulic brakes, and the placement of the motor and battery is engineered to maintain balance and handling.

legitster• 9 months ago

So the interesting thing about this is the ... peddle-by-wire drivetrain? So unlike a normal e-bike, when its battery dies it turns into a stationary bike.

I love ebikes and generally like what Rivian does, but in a very competitive market it's hard to see the appeal of this.

hbarka3• 9 months ago

If I may also peddle my opinion, this e-bike is a fresh innovation and it's easy to see how revolutionary it is. What very competitive market has regen, 180 newton-meter of torque, programmable power curve, shape-shifting? This e-bike is incredible. These days, who lets their iphone battery die?

kridsdale1• 9 months ago

a pun

Eyyyyyyy

rglullis3• 9 months ago

Why should we care for "revolutionary" when the design that has been working for centuries is cheap, widely understood and universally available?

nradov5• 9 months ago

Wow I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. If so then nicely done. If not then bro do you even bike?

makeitdouble• 9 months ago

A phone can get charged with random 5V outlets and you can walk around with a 200g battery to make it last two days.

The bike won't fit any of that until there's hot swappable batteries sold everywhere, and when it's dead you'll be pushing it back home.

eikenberry• 9 months ago

Just don't think of it as an e-bike.. Think of it as an electric scooter with a built-in, manual charging solution. The question then seems to be how well it compares against other electric scooters?

thinkling• 9 months ago

So unlike a normal e-bike, when its battery dies it turns into a stationary bike.

Maybe you pedal the generator on the kickstand for a minute to give it enough charge to operate the electronics, and then away you go working hard like on any other e-bike that's out of charge? I don't see why it couldn't move.

username2232• 9 months ago

"E-bikes" are much more efficient than electric cars, but they're just electric scooters with governors at this point, and only called "bikes" for regulatory reasons.

_carbyau_3• 9 months ago

I have a friend who hates any electric bike not "pedal-assist". His opinion is they are electric motorbikes - that happen to have pedals as a backup option, usually not used.

And if anyone said "lets ride motorbikes with pedestrians" they'd be looked at funny.

I'm seeing more near misses each week AND in 20 years I'll be old enough to feel real vulnerable...

tim33310• 9 months ago

Depends which e-bike. Mine is very much a trad bike with a small motor tacked on https://www.savvycycling.co.uk/e-bike-database/e-bike-archiv...

_carbyau_3• 9 months ago

In the next sentence:

"It features a new pedal-by-wire drivetrain called “DreamRide” developed in-house. The rider pedals a generator, which replenishes the battery,"

So uh, keep peddling?

Yes, the motion->electric->motion circuit is not as efficient as direct pedal but you are explicitly not stranded.

blacksmith_tb3• 9 months ago

If that worked well though, why pack a large battery in the first place? My suspicion is that pedaling provides a small percentage of the energy needed to move you and the bike and your cargo.

adrianmonk2• 9 months ago

I would hope they designed it where you can keep riding. It seems possible. Pick some charge level (say 20%) and provide less and less power assist as you approach that. Once you hit 20%, a control system tries to keep it about 20% charged. Basically you enter a mode where the battery becomes a buffer (between the pedal and wheels) rather than a power source. The bike would feel sluggish, but it wouldn't stop working.

mrtesthah• 9 months ago

You'd have to pedal rather hard (equivalent of riding 21.7 mph) to provide 250W of power[1], which is the minimum for most ebike motors.

1. https://a2zcalculators.com/science-and-engineering-calculato...

mc323• 9 months ago

Maybe they figure you pedal to charge it up before it’d go again -like a windup torch. It’s energy wasteful but who knows what marketing forced the engineers to do.

kjkjadksj2• 9 months ago

When a normal ebike dies you are left with a 50-60lb bike probably not with the gearing you’d want.

notnmeyer2• 9 months ago

an emtb with the assist off feels like you’re pedaling out of a black hole.

llbeansandrice• 9 months ago

That’s still a pretty huge gap from 50lbs of dead weight. This is a horrible and expensive ebike idk why HN is trying to defend it.

Dylan168074• 9 months ago

Well then the normal ebike should spend another pound to add better gearing.

Once I put myself onto the bike I don't care all that much whether it's 15lb or 50lb.

blamestross• 9 months ago

This is an electric motorcycle with pedals. The presence of pedals that only-technically contribute to motion is a regulatory-dodge not an intended feature.

intrasight3• 9 months ago

As long as it only moves if you're peddling, it passes the regulatory test.

twodave• 9 months ago

It’s got double the range of any e-bike I’ve been around. On a full charge you’ll get very uncomfortable long before you reach half capacity. I think the pedals are only to fit into a certain vehicle category and perhaps to a lesser degree for range-extension. The expectation is that you keep it charged via an outlet.

ehnto• 9 months ago

It is a trope at this point. I think Rivian has done a pretty good job here, but the trope is that the non-bike companies wanting to implement their technology, also feel the need to reinvent the bicycle part of the bicycle. Ignoring the decades of learning about what value a bicycle actually provides, and treats it like a technology problem.

Bikes are simple for a reason, they're light for a reason, they are maintainable for a reason, their ergonomics have been refined over decades, and so on.

I don't think non-bike companies shouldn't have a crack, it's fun to see new takes on it all, but bikes have been "disrupted" already by a dozen different forms of transport, they stick around in their current form because it fits well into the gaps the other modes leave. There's no big new problems to solve with the bicycle aspect, just pop your cool drivetrain into a regular bike and you at least get to keep the broader market of cyclists as customers.

gazook89• 9 months ago

I’d rather electric car companies building bikes than cyber trucks, though they are in the same vanity category.

pfooti• 9 months ago

While this is true, I've dealt with a sudden battery failure on my old model ebike (a kalkhoff from 2018 or so) and I can tell you that without any motor assist the bike might as well be stationary. It is quite heavy.

LoganDark2• 9 months ago

Due to regulations in some states and jurisdictions, throttle will act as an assist boost in those areas, temporarily increasing your assist multiplier while you hold it down.

The bike comes with DRM that automatically tracks which location you're in and applies regulations to the controls? Fucking hell.

The only things this seems to have over an electric scooter is larger wheels, a seat, and a cargo rack. It's almost impossible to tell in a time-efficient way though because they really want you to watch their presentation and individually click on each "SEE MORE" button and read each little excerpt one at a time. I'm super annoyed by this website.

Even the most premium possible scooter costs almost $1,000 less than this - Apollo Phantom 2.0 Stellar is $3,649 right now, and goes like 50 MPH, has far less DRM, and so on. No cargo space though.

Erikun• 9 months ago

It has a bit of a “The Homer” feel to it, but maybe the designs grows on you.

bigwheels• 9 months ago

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/0/05/TheHo...

(https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Homer)

A classic Simpsons episode!

geephroh• 9 months ago

"Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a nerf ball..."

plantwallshoe3• 9 months ago

My general advice is to never buy a bike from a company that doesn’t have a core business in building non electric bicycles.

rtkwe4• 9 months ago

At least not their first generation.

ChrisMarshallNY• 9 months ago

Well, it certainly has a Rivian price.

I suspect I'll be seeing these around here, soon.

bix6• 9 months ago

I wish they’d clean up Class 3. They made the throttles illegal in California.

browningstreet• 9 months ago

We need fast charging e-bike infrastructure

hbarka3• 9 months ago

Any details on the regen efficiency? Going downhill would net back some energy depending on regen efficiency.

lpellis• 9 months ago

This thing at least looks like a bike, some of the 'e-bikes' are way more motorcycles than actually meant to be paddled.

programmertote• 9 months ago

Glad to see innovation in bicycle space. That said, when I was living in NYC, I was always afraid that someone on an e-bike would hit me when I'm trying to cross the road (esp. in the evenings or when the weather doesn't permit a lot of visibility). Some of these e-bikers also ride on the pedestrian platforms and it's dangerous (as of 2022, I don't think there was any enforcement to keep them out of the platforms).

It'd be interesting to see if/how e-bike laws would evolve if this trend gets bigger (ebikes are already big in big cities like NYC)

yalogin• 9 months ago

28mph as the top speed seems to go beyond the bike market, but it’s positioned as a bike. It’s also marketed as a mountain bike. Of course it’s on the person to be safe, just wondering if it becomes a problem on the roads and trails

rtkwe4• 9 months ago

28 mph is the legal max for Class 3 ebikes with pedal assist. It's the max you can usually legally ride without getting into license requirements etc in most of the US.

Computer0• 9 months ago

The TM-Q is much more interesting to me as an outsider. What if these are clogging up city bike lanes for commercial purposes? https://ridealso.com/products/quad

mperham• 9 months ago

You build bigger lanes. Paris and London are quickly learning this lesson.

subroutine2• 9 months ago

There are already bigger lanes - it's where the cars drive. What is the difference between a Tesla and a TM-Q loaded with 30 amazon packages?

sameline• 9 months ago

Amazon has been using a vehicle that looks very similar to the enclosed version in upper Manhattan the last few months. Given their existing relationship with Rivian maybe they have some kind of early access.

tim33310• 9 months ago

We have quite a lot of those sort of things in London. They don't seem to cause much problems. They certainly clog the roads much less than conventional commercial vehicles.

justinator3• 9 months ago

Pedaling to make energy to store in a battery that then runs an electric motor seems to get around the best thing about bicycles: their efficiency.

No one is going to do that. It's an electric motorcycle in disguise. Don't even play.

dfltr• 9 months ago

If only there were some way to take all that work of pedaling and efficiently translate it into torque on the rear wheel, right?

justinator3• 9 months ago

like a... drive train or something?

science fiction my good dude.

ChuckMcM2• 9 months ago

I tend to agree with comments that point out that 'modern' e-bikes are really electric motor cycles or the original "MoPed" from the 60's. And they have the same appeal, relatively cheap to operate, fit in between regulatory categories, don't require a garage to store, Etc. E-scooters aren't much better (just worse kinematics). That said, I never thought the Segway was ever going to be more than a 'niche' product whereas I had already lived in a city[1] with thousands of mopeds. To the extent they are embraced by urban planners with reduced parking mandates and their own roadways I think they are a net win for cities, when they terrorize pedestrians on sidewalks, not so much.

[1] Brussels.

mc323• 9 months ago

Mopeds but with crappier seats. Mopeds at least had decently comfortable seats and could seat a passenger —if we’re considering normal BMI folks.

nntwozz4• 9 months ago

Moped seats are for sitting, bike seats are for pedaling.

They're not worse, they're different because they need to be.

F7F7F7• 9 months ago

Adjusted for inflation the Segway would be close to $10,000 today after taxes.

That price tag and the way overhyped lead up to it's unveiling combined to kill any chance the Segway had. Dean's (RIP, I think) vision might have had a chance if it wasn't the same price as a lightly used new-to-me Kia Sephia.

At even half the $5000+ price it would have found a lot more adoption. Tourism companies still use the shit out of them and once they start dumping them, I bet they'll be the cool thing to have.

onionisafruit• 9 months ago

Dean Kamen is still kicking

intrasight3• 9 months ago

It's Woodie Flowers who passed away

slumberlust• 9 months ago

Dean is not dead and has owned a biotech company in Manchester NH for a four decades now.

gpm• 9 months ago

There are plenty of modern ebikes that are just bikes with a motor. I have one of these for instance (well, the previous generation): https://ride1up.com/product/roadster-v3/

The best description I've seen of using it is "cycling without hills".

The fact that we use the same name for these and "low speed electric motorcycles" is... unfortunate.

trollbridge8• 9 months ago

Early motorcycles were also indeed just bicycles with a motor.

daft_pink4• 9 months ago

I think that the Class 1 and Class 2 and Class 3 regulations when properly followed tell you what you are getting. Since this is Class 3, it really is close to a Moped and has a lot more restrictions depending on your area similar to a motorcycle but still allowed on city streets without insurance in most places in the USA, but often has restrictions in parks etc.

The problem is that many other manufacturers have “selectable” class which really is meaningless and doesn’t really tell you what you are buying and often times is really close to a motorcycle. But unlike cars you can easily import bikes that don’t conform to the regulation so many don’t.

If I were buying a bike for my young child I would stick to class 1 or 2.

horsawlarway2• 9 months ago

I agree, the classifications are pretty solid when followed and I'm with you on class 2 being the right pick for most people - But I'd argue they're too complicated.

I think it's also a social issue right now, there's very little general information provided to bikers (ex - most people don't even know these classifications exist, and can't remember them if they do), and not a large enough chunk of the population is biking yet to get a general consensus on "acceptable" behavior.

Couple that with low enforcement, and it makes sense a fair number of people are just clueless.

---

Just simple things like "bike speed limit" signs on trails/paths would probably help a lot.

I have a class 3 ebike, and I'd still 100% prefer to ride it on a trail with a speed limit of 20mph instead of having trying to mingle with cars on even moderatly busy streets.

The laws should let bikers understand the desired behavior, and allow them to self-regulate.

Especially given that this isn't in the same risk category as larger vehicles (e-bikes are half the weight of mopeds, and 28mph is very different than 45)

Then give folks tickets. They're too useful to go away - we'll get it figured out.

nntwozz4• 9 months ago

It depends on what you mean with an e-bike, most e-bikes are pedelecs.

That means they don't have a throttle which is what a motorcycle or moped has.

You have to pedal to get an assist, this can either be a hub drive or a mid drive motor which have different characteristics (that's another story).

dtgriscom• 9 months ago

most e-bikes are pedelecs

I think the "most" is overstated; I've been shopping for a year or two, and most of the ones I see have throttles.

doctorpangloss• 9 months ago

The comments you are agreeing with: there's a lot about mopeds and drivetrains and Class 1/3, and yet nobody sees that this piece of shit doesn't even have fenders?

ChuckMcM2• 9 months ago

Yes, the bikes in the pictures do not have fenders. However, if you look at the press coverage, there are lots of studs on the frame for adding everything from cargo racks to front pannier wine bottle holders. That makes me unwilling to dismiss it out of hand. It is pretty clear that for this launch they were going for a 'look' and no doubt some designer at Also chose what configurations they would show.

My daily rider is a Trek Verve 2 (not electric) which Trek has a 'beauty shot'[1] of which features it without fenders. That said, mine has fenders because I don't like getting muddy water thrown up my back when I go through a puddle.

So my take here is that yes, this is a rather 'bougie' e-bike with pretentious design presentations, but if the engineers did their job correctly I expect you'll be able to equip it with fenders and other gear that you find essential on something you ride.

[1] https://media.trekbikes.com/image/upload/w_1200/Verve2Disc_2...

conradev2• 9 months ago

The one thing about e-bikes that I don't get is: why the chain?

https://www.voromotors.com/products/emove-roadrunner-v3-seat...

This thing has 500W hub motors, no expensive derailleur, no chain to maintain, just tires and brakes. The hub motors have internal gearing. I love mine for getting around LA.

iancmceachern2• 9 months ago

Torque, electric motors need gearboxes just like everything else

beAbU3• 9 months ago

That thing you linked to is not a bike, it's a motorcycle. It should be licensed, taxed and insured like one.

loeg5• 9 months ago

That isn't a bicycle. It's a scooter.

scotty793• 9 months ago

I think the chain makes sense you want to let the rider pedal. If you don't, hub motors are the obvious way to go.

jnsaff22• 9 months ago

Unsprung weight.

tim33310• 9 months ago

The chain is to connect the pedals to the rear wheel as you might expect, assuming you want to be able to pedal.

I see the rivan thing has a toothed belt rather than chain.

trollbridge8• 9 months ago

After seeing yet another brutal accident of an ebike yesterday, I suspect regulation is coming, including requiring drivers to be licenced the same way motorcycle operators are, vehicles registered the same way, and liability insurance required.

josefresco• 9 months ago

Same here, a local woman was recently impaled by an ebike. I doubt they'll require licenses but they will start banning them on busy bike / pedestrian trails.

amelius• 9 months ago

And mandatory helmets (even when it's not mandatory for normal bicycles).

shellfishgene5• 9 months ago

This is already the case in Europe. We have:

Pedelecs up to 25 kmh, motor only supports pedaling, max 250 watt

- Regulated like bicycles

S-Pedelecs up to 45 kmh, motor only supports pedaling; and e-bikes with a throttle

- Need helmet (specific ones, not any bike helmet)

- Need license plate

- Need insurance

- Need small motorcycle driving license (included in car license)

- Minimum age 16

- Can't use bike paths

karakot• 9 months ago

When school ends, I often see middle and high schoolers riding cheap (and extremely fast) e-bikes through the neighborhood, frequently blowing through stop signs and generally breaking every road rules. So it's just matter of time before it all gets over-regulated.

and by a cheap bike I mean something like these "bikes":

https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Suspension-Motorcycle-Batter...

https://www.amazon.com/Qlife-Adults-1500W-Suspension-Motorcy...

TheAlchemist• 9 months ago

I'm not sure we can call these things bikes. It weights almost 40kgs... You cannot physically ride even slightly uphill when the battery dies. It's just a motor or a scooter.

random3• 9 months ago

I guess the difference is these can "legally" ride on sidewalks

fumar• 9 months ago

I would rather just pick up a Maeving RMS or a CE 02. TM-B weighs 90 lbs and is not quite a scooter or bike.

dashundchen• 9 months ago

While this looks pretty slick, i definitely agree with commenters this falls on the moped end of things. I will assume from the features listed that it's loaded with proprietary parts.

I'm an everyday cyclist and when people ask me for recommendations on bike, I almost always recommend they look at traditional bike brands with e-bikes, rather than pure e-bike brands.

Traditional bike shop level bike brands typically have reputable Bosch or Bafang motors (preferably mid drive, not in the wheels hub)and computers, but the rest of the bike will be mostly standard bike brakes, wheel sizes, derailleurs, chains, hubs etc.

Bring one of those DTC e-bike brands into your local shop and there's probably a 50% chance they'll work on it. Good luck finding replacement parts or getting support from the company with no local prescence.

Look on /r/bikemechanics to see the horror show working on some of these bikes has become.

One of the great things about cycling is that almost anyone can learn to fix and maintain their bike. It's affordable and mostly standardized at this point

It's extremely accessible with YouTube Videos, the Park Tool Blue Book, and bike coops or workshops in most cities. Many local shops are happy to share knowledge with their customers.

The closer your e-bike is to a traditional bike, the better time you'll have in the long run.

strogonoff• 9 months ago

As someone who enjoys bicycling every now and then, I suspect a 40 kg Also TM-B hurling up a tight bicycle lane at 50 km/h can be somewhat hazardous to people on regular (unpowered and light) bicycles—not unlike a motorcycle, but obviously to a lesser degree.

For comparison, Seoul bike lanes allow pedal-assist bikes that are limited to 25 km/h and weigh no more than 30 kg (battery included), which seems pretty generous.

daft_pink4• 9 months ago

I really wish they would offer a Class 1 or Class 2 version.

rtkwe4• 9 months ago

Why?

daft_pink4• 9 months ago

because class 1 or 2 is allowed to go pretty much anywhere a bicycle is allowed to go where I live and class 3 has more restrictions.

nntwozz4• 9 months ago

Small outdated 26 inch wheels, ugly, looks very heavy.

Promo pictures look cringe with metrosexuals riding them on a gravel road.

Cool.

Typical 2020s design trying to appeal to the smartphone/sedentary crowd who know nothing about bikes.

For this kind of money you can get a really nice eMTB like the Mith from UNNO which has 29 inch wheels, weighs 47 lbs (21.3kg) and is a much more capable bike with a 800Wh battery.

https://www.unno.com/en-us/mith

If you don't want classic transmission there are other eMTBs with a Pinion gearbox:

https://www.nicolai-bicycles.com/bikes-e-mtb-en

iknowstuff• 9 months ago

“metrosexuals”? what a whiplash to 2005 lmao

pavel_lishin• 9 months ago

Typical 2020s design trying to appeal to the smartphone/sedentary crowd who know nothing about bikes.

What's the problem with appealing to that crowd?

pm903• 9 months ago

The cargo version IMO might be a bigger hit. I can see not just last mile, but perhaps within large factories, golf clubs etc.

subroutine2• 9 months ago

Electric golf carts have existed since the 1950s, and are the cart type available at most golf courses in the US. Regarding factories, a variant with a pallet mover or fork lift would be handy (but electric lifts are probably the second most common type if they haven't already surpassed propane).

vjvjvjvjghv2• 9 months ago

It seems US manufacturers only cater to the luxury segment. How about doing something simple, reliable and cheap? With the tariffs soon they will kill off cheap foreign options and we will only have upscale things to buy. It used to be that the US was good at producing for the mass market but it seems that's over.

This thing seems totally overengineered by people who never use bikes

TulliusCicero• 9 months ago

How about doing something simple, reliable and cheap?

Like Rad Power Bikes? Though IIRC they're not doing too well at the moment.

I have a Juiced bike myself for the commute, it's quite nice.

robotburrito• 9 months ago

Throttles are so lame. They make these things motorcycles that pretend to be bicycles ridden at 20+ mph in bike lanes by people who mostly haven’t ridden anything at all for 20 years so they lack the knowledge of etiquette and bicycle handling skills putting a bunch of us a risk IMO.

t1234s• 9 months ago

I like the idea of regen making its way into pedal assist mountain bikes. It would act as a sort of descent control.

dgacmu2• 9 months ago

Now a clever engineer needs to add "peloton mode" -- use it as a stationary exercise bike and charge the battery at the same time.

SamDc73• 9 months ago

For 4.5k that's quite expensive .. I got a bike for $1300 been using it for 1.5 years (around 7-10 miles a day) and the thing for bikes usually people pay it all upfront (unlike cars were mostly bought in installments) so the price difference there are quite noticeable

thradgt• 9 months ago

I'm actually pretty excited about this, and I've always been surprised that there isn't an electric bike like this.

One of the main user interface challenges with a pedal assist E bike is how to make the experience feel as intuitive as just pedaling a normal bicycle with a chain, but be able to embrace all of the UX freedom afforded by the "Pedal by wire" separation.

Consider that because there's an electric generator that the pedals are powering, the software can vary how much amperage is allowed to be generated and so provide variable force feedback as it were, and the software can set any relationship between the input (pedaling frequency, torque, rate of change etc.) and the behavior of the traction motor. I think that's the basis for actually a very exciting pedaling platform.

They also say in the article that the generator itself can create enough power to substantively move the motor, which is pretty awesome in my mind but I can totally understand how that feels circuitous.

rocauc• 9 months ago

The bike lane compliant vehicle category is exciting. Infinite Machine (infinitemachine.com) made me aware of this category with their Olto model, which is at a (surprisingly) superior price point.

charles_f4• 9 months ago

This looks like a trendy car company solution to a commuter ebike. The ebike market is quite saturated already. Full suspension is kind of a gimmick on an ebike, my commute goes through some steep slopes, rocks and mud, and my hardtail is hapoy with it. The whole "pedaling to load the battery" is both inefficient (you'll lose north of 70% of energy on the most efficient bike dynamos) and less reliable than having a direct link between your pedals and the wheel. The only advantage I see is not having a derailleur, but your derailleur will still be there when your bike's dead. Belt drive has its fellowship, but I still prefer a chain: I've put >4000km in my commuter with marginal lubrification and maybe 2-3 cleanings a year, it's still kicking, and finding a belt is harder than a chain.

I'm assuming that they will find buyers, either because it looks like a cool toy, or because rivian has fans ; but for all intents and purposes I don't think it's a good bike. It's probably a matter of preference, I'm on my bike whether it's sunny in the summer raining the rest of the year, and sometimes under the snow. It's a convenience. My commuter receives very little attention from me, it just works. I clean the chain just about every time I have to replace the brakes, and that's it for maintenance. Everything that makes it less sturdy is a danger that it will be ledd reliable and more if a hassler, that's why I wouldn't go with unproven solutions like that

tirant• 9 months ago

It still misses something basic for a commuter bike, a mudguard.

An urban or commuting bike without one makes no sense whatsoever.

calcifer• 9 months ago

It's a $50 add-on on their website.

yttrbnim2• 9 months ago

The whole "pedaling to load the battery" is both inefficient (you'll lose north of 70% of energy on the most efficient bike dynamos) and less reliable than having a direct link between your pedals and the wheel

Can't you still run it downhill and regain energy? A lot of downhills in the city can't utilize the gravity all the way, instead having red lights just at the bottom of the hill

vasco• 9 months ago

Can't you still run it downhill and regain energy?

That just means you had stored potential energy, otherwise how are you going to get up the hill?

beAbU3• 9 months ago

Afaik almost all ebikes do not have regen. If it's a hub motor it's often geared with a one way bearing, and if it's mid drive (getting more popular) then you cant have regen as the chain is not back-drivable.

The efficiency gains of bicycle regen is not high enough and there is added drag of pulling a motor along if you are just pedalling normally. Most regard the trade-offs to be not worth it.

There is one Canadian ebike parts manufacturer that's pushing for regen, and their main reason for doing so is that it saves on brake pad wear.

nimos2• 9 months ago

Electric generator->battery->electric motor drive train should be fairly efficient. I'd be surprised if it was lower than 80%.

Traditional dynamos are fairly small parasitic loads and not really comparable.

buenzlikoder3• 9 months ago

Normal bicycle drivetrains have efficiencies around 95%...

phkahler• 9 months ago

Thats called a series hybrid and it kinda sucks. Motors only reach high efficiency at high loads, and you have 2 of them between the feet and wheel. That configuration is bad when the battery dies because you will feel that inefficiency.

IshKebab• 9 months ago

I'd be surprised if it was lower than 80%.

80% is really bad for a bicycle. A well-maintained bicycle drive chain is basically 100% efficient.

charles_f4• 9 months ago

Dynamo is the general term for electric generators from mechanical displacement. I'm not talking about the small contraptions that power lights on a bike, these are traditionally even worse in efficiency.

Lets be charitable and call it 90%, it's still going to charge the battery (which is described as a buffer), and that will have a max of 95%, discharge the battery, same, and power the motor, which has likely the same efficiency. You're at. 9.95.95*.9 = 73% efficiency at motor output. You're giving 27% to the gods of thermodynamics, unless you like the extra complex cardio you're getting, I don't really see the point. Regular bike transmissions are not free either, but they're closer to 95%.

Thinking about all that, I don't get why they didn't use a hub motor. Why adding a belt when you could have transmitted the power directly to the wheel?

Theodores• 9 months ago

Chances are, you can buy a bicycle that is 'made' by whatever your favourite car brand is.

Need a Ferrari bicycle? How about a Ford, a BMW, a Mercedes or anything else?

Chances are that there is a bicycle out there with your favourite car logo slapped on the headtube. And none of them have sold, maybe with the exception of Peugeot, but they got out of bicycles too (albeit to license the brand). Note that Peugeot and scores of other auto companies started with bicycles before adding motors and wheels, so bicycles should be a core competency.

As for Rivian and their bicycle, they will sell a few to people that just want the bed of their truck to have a bicycle in it. Non-Rivian truck owners? They will take a pass.

But as a 'halo product', it should work. They can get the marketing they want from it.

jnsaff22• 9 months ago

Efficiency here is the NFR that would be like: perfect is the enemy of good.

Think of this an electric bike with optional pedal assist from the human. Efficiency is irrelevant if the range is large enough.

charles_f4• 9 months ago

I have a large battery, I ran short of power a couple of times in the past year. These batteries age and if you want to use their range to limit that aging, at some point you'll have to gamble. It's already bad enough to human power those heavy electric bikes, adding more drag doesn't sound fun.

hex4def6• 9 months ago

I'm assuming the thought process behind the pedal->generator->traction motor is that you can keep the cadence in the ideal / most efficient range. Problem with mid drives is that (at least for me), I prefer lower cadence which means driving the hub drive at a less efficient range.

I don't hate it, but I'm curious to see what they think their target audience is.

Is it someone that wants to do a "last mile" from their car/train to office? Is it a car replacement? Is it a weekend farmers market family bike?

I feel like all of these require emphasis on different aspects. If it's a last mile commuter, it needs to be light / small so it can fit on a train or car trunk. Probably also needs to be light so it's luggable into/out of the trunk by an average person.

I guess for me, the most interesting ebike idea is that of a "last mile(s)". Something that I can easily pack in the trunk, and depending on my mood, allow me to park ~5-7 miles from work and cycle the rest of the way in. There are bits of my commute near my office that are often at a standstill, and ebiking would be significantly faster to skip those. This is much less of a commitment compared to doing the entire 20mi commute by bike.

beAbU3• 9 months ago

Reminds me of this: https://youtu.be/c__jbrnsxXU?si=D8n2sqRTkyur9gaq

It's not really intended for bicycleists, it's intended for rivian owners.

ryzvonusef• 9 months ago

At this point, just accept electric motorcycles/scooters are a distinct category that you'd like to accept and promote, and get rid of the vestigial pedals.

In my country, our govt is promoting e-cycles, and they are about ~ USD 1,000, after being imported from China. They have similar specs to these 'bikes' (range-wise) and I think they are better vehicles, both in price and in utility.

https://www.pave.gov.pk/vehicles

No need to add fake pedals or create a useless 'bike' frame when people are earning for a scooter/motorcycle. Create easier licensing/registration options and you will see adoption rise for the vehicles people truly want.

DanielHB• 9 months ago

I don't get what you mean, electric scooters are already a thing? At least in most countries in Europe they are classified the same type of vehicle as pedal-assisted e-bicycles and are capped at 25km/h and can ride in the bike lanes. If they go faster they are classified as full motorcycle and have to ride on the road with the cars and requires a license and a license plate (regardless if electric or non-electric).

https://dualwheeljourney.com/mopeds/swedish-moped-class-1-an...

get rid of the vestigial pedals.

Pedal-assisted is very much not a vestigial category, plenty of people want to get exercise and not just ride a scooter. On top of that they massively increase the range of the bicycle and the bicycle is still usable when the battery runs out.

simgt• 9 months ago

I've been annoyed by this as well for a while. I have a non-electric cargo bike but I don't care if others have pedals or not. I'm more scared of a bakfeit mum zooming through at 25km/h than a lightweight Chinese-style moped going slower than that. Regulating who can go where by speed and weight would make much more sense than creating all these arbitrary categories in my opinion.

unwind• 9 months ago

Oh: I was surprised/saddened that the article mentioned Cake's bankruptcy, so I had to check and it seems the company/assets and a lot of staff was acquired by Norwegian company Brages [1] so it kind of still exists, at least. Not sure if that means they no longer sell in the US, though.

[1] https://ridecake.com/en-SE/the-cake-journey-continues

tim33310• 9 months ago

I had a look and

Good enough to make me think the $9,000 / €9,000 starting price isn’t as crazy as I first thought.

I think there may be a limited market at the higher price points given you can get a pretty good ebike for a fraction of that.

impossiblefork• 9 months ago

A bunch of them have Öhlins suspensions, so it's obviously a special market.

bjourne• 9 months ago

This is obvious marketing spam. Not hn worthy imo.

buenzlikoder3• 9 months ago

Car companies have been screwing up e-bikes for longer than you think

https://electrek.co/2024/04/02/car-companies-have-been-screw...

tromp• 9 months ago

A french company is developing similar technology called PERS (pedaling energy recovery system) [1] that is actually chainless. This comparison [2] claims an overall efficiency of around 64%, with both generator and motor losing about 20% each. They were interviewed by the Laidback bike report [3].

[1] https://www.cixi.life/pers-technology

[2] https://www.ebike24.com/blog/chainless-ebikes

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyGDZw3VPlI

dingdingdang• 9 months ago

I think someone is missing a massive marketing/product-improvement opportunity by not selling a scaffold for the bike to allow it to be used as an exercise bike - this is turn would make significant savings on people's electricity budget .. then suddenly the direct-to-battery pedal arrangement would go from weakness to proper feature! #feelfreetocontactmewithmonetaryreward

eeasss• 9 months ago

Climate change is tailwind for e-bikes. What we need is better infrastructure accross and muscle memory to use them. If only politicians would invest more in infrastructure... (speaking from Southern EU perspective)

trollbridge8• 9 months ago

Here in the USA, there are bike lanes and dedicated bike trails everywhere and a great deal of ebike adoption. The problem is that regulatory frameworks haven’t caught up and public sentiment is becoming quite negative when yet another brutal accident happens.

temperceve• 9 months ago

Weird !

sotix• 9 months ago

So if people don't like this, does anyone have a recommendation for a good, class 1 (pedal assist only) bike?

h14h2• 9 months ago

IMO a huge missed opportunity for these indirect-drive bikes is marketing them as a home exercise bike 2-in-1.

If the pedals are going into a generator with fancy software to emulate the feel of a bike, there's nothing stopping the bike from going into "stationary mode" and acting as an exercise bike. This thing even had a screen on it, so you could do workouts like a peloton.

Then there's the storage aspect -- many people already have (or want) to allocate space to an exercise bike. It would pretty compelling that was also the parking space for your bike-bike.

Then there's the added benefit that your workout is charging the battery. Imagine biking to a park on low charge, doing a stationary workout, and then having enough battery left to bike home with full assist.

bognition• 9 months ago

Its an interesting idea and the engineer in my agrees with you. Then the product skeptic says that anyone who wants to ride a bike as a form of exercise and get around using a bike, would probably just ride a normal bike.

almostgotcaught• 9 months ago

Yup the venn diagram of people who buy an electric bike (ie don't want to work hard to push pedals) and people who want an exercise bike (where the only thing going on is pedal pushing, no moving) has exactly one person in the center piece: op.

h14h2• 9 months ago

I think it's an incredibly common use case in places where biking is the default transit mode. I like biking for exercise, but I don't necessarily want to be a sweaty mess after my commute for work, or when lugging my kids around, or when getting groceries.

cultofmetatron• 9 months ago

1. I'd like to ride somewhere and get a workout but I might go farther than I can go normally and rely on ebike assist when I go back home.

2. there are rides I do where I am going for the exercise. There are potential rides I want to do that I can't because I can't afford to be covered in sweat when I arrive. I dont' necessarily want to have TWO bikes or maybe I dont' mind getting a workout on the way home where I can promptly take a shower.

plasticchris• 9 months ago

People talking about efficiency are missing the point - the pedals are only there so it gets classified as an e-bike and not an electric motorcycle (so no license required, registration, taxes, can drive in the bike lane) and doesn’t have the jerky handling of an e-bike with the wheels mechanically linked to the pedals.

They never really intend for you to turn the pedals. It is a regulatory thing.

WhereIsTheTruth• 9 months ago

$4,500

Haha. https://www.himobikes.com/

fattybob• 9 months ago

It looks good and has many soold features that meet most needs, but seriously lacking the simplest mud guard prediction that almost all no sport bikes need

Rivian's TM-B electric bike

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