"Lighten up"

http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/

by jnoller • 14 years ago

1371 766 14 years ago

duaneb2• 14 years ago

While I sympathize for the person, I can't help but wonder if it was the right decision. She's going to be facing the same problems in every male-dominated industry; is it worth giving up the thing you love? I can't answer, obviously, because I'm male, and in a different position besides that.

Thankfully, I've never run into this in real life. I've always worked with coworkers respectful of each other, and I can't imagine tolerating that kind of sexism without any confrontation. One would think people would learn to interact—or rather, which interactions are harmful—with people of different genders at a younger age.

kcunning4• 14 years ago

I think I left that a little vague (the original title was clearer about me staying in IT). I'm still a developer.

It may exist in every industry, but this is the one I've chosen, and this is where I can start to make a change.

blake80862• 14 years ago

In your opinion, what is a potential solution to this problem?

duaneb2• 14 years ago

> It may exist in every industry, but this is the one I've chosen, and this is where I can start to make a change.

Good! I think that's the right decision. I can't imagine what would cause the world to get better about this aside from women, on a global scale, making it very clear that it's not OK.

wilmoore2• 14 years ago

While I agree that leaving the industry might not be the best choice (luckily she did not), we do need to realize that even though this happens in many other industries, IT is one with relatively few women in the first place so think of how lonely it could feel to be singled out and feel like nobody is on your side.

Until you feel that, you might empathize, but you can't relate. The easiest way to deal is to think about how you'd want your mother, sister, or spouse to be treated. If you wouldn't like it for them, don't ever stand by and do nothing when this stuff happens. Also, about losing a job or business...if you put a job or a client ahead of your ethics, it's time to do some self refactoring.

Jun8• 14 years ago

"What do you say to the guy who sits across from you when you dress up and makes a comment to everyone about it? "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"

Yikes! What sort of a place was this, what sort of people was she working with? I've never seen/heard anything remotely like this.

It is sort of hard to generalize from such morons to the whole tech field.

MattRogish3• 14 years ago

Yeah, this shocks me because I've never worked in an organization where that would be tolerated, and I don't tolerate it in my team either. But then again, I'd never really hire people that would think that's OK, so...

Since managers tend to hire folks like themselves, it's really a symptom of dysfunctional management and an organization.

Thankfully there are absolutely places where this insanity doesn't occur. I don't know how to find that out prior to working there, however. :(

tptacek11• 14 years ago

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with enough not- taking- one- iota- of- shit for the next 10 years, not have to suffer any of this.

So I guess what I'm saying is thanks.

benihana• 14 years ago

>(for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened)

Why? Because you would have beat his ass? Cause you would have shown him what happens when he comes on to your woman? You would have had an unkind word with him? Do you not believe your wife can handle herself?

Trying to bash down a gender role by reinforcing another is pretty silly.

huckfinnaafb• 14 years ago

Ridiculous. Coming to your partner's defense is not a matter of gender, but one of loyalty. Reverse the genders in this case and the threat still applies.

andywood• 14 years ago

What about "Because he would have been angry about it, and sometimes we don't make the best decisions when we're angry?" Why go fishing for the least charitable reading?

bh422226• 14 years ago

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass;

Holly horror story!

Sadly I am not surprised to hear this, because I've heard many similar stories. And yet out of the very large number of male friends in the industry I have, including myself, none of us have ever or would ever do anything like that. The paradox here is answered by the fact that a tiny share of creeps will always be found in any sufficiently large set of humans. And the larger the set, the bigger the number of creeps.

Thus I think the only way to guarantee this kind of thing becomes part of the past is to radically increase the share of women in the industry.

Now, that doesn't prevent creeps from being creepy, but it does guarantee that the small number that they must be, can never be creepy to a large number of women.

This is kind of depressing as it basically assumes we can never completely get rid of creeps. But does anyone believe 100% proper behavior, from 100% of the people, 100% of the time is possible?

indspenceable• 14 years ago

Certainly not. But I can certainly empathize with a complaint raised in the article. Essentially, if you know "Lighten up" seems equivalent to acknowledging the lack of respect being shown, but refusing to own up to it. While it's easy for you to say "Oh, I only said one thing! Why is she so mad?" thats, sort of the entire point of the article - everyone just saying one thing adds up to a lot.

heliostatic• 14 years ago

I think you're correct that the best solution is to increase the number of women in technology.

However, as members of that community today, you and I and our male friends can call out the creepy dudes making inappropriate remarks 100% of the time we hear them. Creating an environment where people feel comfortable doesn't have to mean getting rid of all bad actors; it can be enough to make it clear that bad actors are found universally unacceptable.

BenOfTomorrow3• 14 years ago

While you are correct in this instance, the original article is complaining about subtle inequalities that go unnoticed or tolerated by a much larger portion of the industry than just the "creeps".

And the existence of that behavior is an obstacle to increasing the share of women in the industry.

jiggy20116• 14 years ago

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass;

What the hell? How on earth did that happen, I really can't imagine why anyone would think that doing this could possibly have a positive income without having drunk a minimum of 5 beers.

einhverfr7• 14 years ago

You know here's the thing. I have had female co-workers complain about being asked in interviews at other companies as to whether they'd quit their jobs (rather than taking paid/unpaid leave) if they had kids. I would quietly listen, take notes in my heads as to which companies to avoid working at.

There are two things that come to mind.

These companies are ones where shit floats so to speak and nothing good will come out of those for anybody.

They are also usually ones who feel unusually entitled to way too much of their workers' personal lives generally.

troels• 14 years ago

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass;

I'm intrigued. How the heck did that scene play out? How exactly do one produce an image of his ass in an interview. How come he had one taken in the first place. So many questions ..

Jem4• 14 years ago

As a woman, a woman in tech AND a mother to a little girl: thank YOU.

Thank you for supporting your wife, thank you for teaching your daughter that she doesn't have to take this crap, and thank you for not being part of the problem in the first place.

kaybe• 14 years ago

What would have been the appropriate response to the picture? Can someone give me a pattern to work with here?

edit: I haven't run into sexism yet (still a student, but a female in a male-dominated field) and I don't want to be the deer in the headlights when it happens for the first time. And it seems that it will happen, the way everyone talks about it.

tptacek11• 14 years ago

She sat through the rest of the interview like a professional and then came home to unload it. The thought of her continuing to sit through an interview after having that happens is unbelievably infuriating to me even today. If there's ever anything I can do to harm the interests of someone who I know did that, I will (my wife, who often has a cooler head than I, is past this and would disapprove of me providing details about who did this).

Your legitimate options in this case are, as I understand it:

(a) Instantly acknowledge that you will never in a million years work for a team where this could happen and then passively coast through the rest of the interview and get out as fast as you can, and/or

(b) Document everything that happened and provide it to the manager of whoever interviewed you (in Erin's case: no such manager!) --- incidentally, having stuff like this happen in an interview creates a radioactive statutory liability which any employer with a general counsel will probably fire the interviewer over. or

Option (c) has a lot of benefits to the community; option (b) is the direct response that will have the most immediate impact to the situation; option (a) is (unfortunately) usually the most coldly rational.

elptacek4• 14 years ago

Well, I guess I ought to weigh in on this one, since I am the interviewee in question. First, the story.

During the interview, I was interrupted while answering a question with, "I think I have a tick." My brain immediately thinks, "He's on eBay and has just won a copy of The Tick." But then he swivels the monitor around to show me a flesh-colored rectangle with a round, red area in the middle of it. I'm pretty sure that while we were talking, he stuck the camera into the back of his trousers and took the picture, as I recall seeing a flash and him fiddling with connecting the camera. However, it was my first interview in a long time, and I was very nervous about returning to paid employment after 6 years as a stay-at-home-mom.

What did I do? I gave him instructions for how to remove it. After all, I am a mom.

So... I've been "in technology" for a long time. In middle school, I picked the locks to let myself into the computer lab. In high school, I was the only female student in CS (also trigonometry and pre-calc). In college, I was the only female ever in the computer lab. I studied audio engineering -- which is a great deal less friendly to women (or was) than IT. I have dealt with a lot of weird situations that would not have occurred if I were male. On the plus side, I've never had to wait in line for the toilet.

This is my opinion: shit is going to happen and you have to roll with it. Given your life experience and temperament, this may be challenging for you. But if you want something bad enough, you'll find a way to get it, no matter how much shit you have to step in on the way.

My observations: men harass each other with equal or greater tendency than their female peers. Myself, I have said things to my male co-workers that have caused them to make the "that was inappropriate" flinch. Also, we can't squelch biology, no matter how smart we are -- if there are boobs in view, his lizard brain is going to notice them.

My hypothesis: men are socialized to shrug it off or suck it up, and may even become desensitized to it after a while. Women are socialized differently. To be frank, I don't completely "get women," even though I am one. Two events in my life have forced me to interact with large and varied groups of women, first being motherhood and second being roller derby training. I somehow managed to offend some of these women, and I'm never quite sure how I do it. But once it happens... they pretty much avoid me like I'm diseased. Anyone, male or female, who reacts to something unsavory in this way is simply going to have a harder time getting by in business. Or anything else, for that matter. Curiously, women seem to be much, much better than men at ignoring their lizard brain. Might be nature, might be nurture, but it is a definite advantage.

If I had a dollar for every time someone has told me to lighten up (or, in the case of my mom, Erliechda!), I'd be driving a Veyron around my private island. And sometimes it does weigh pretty heavily on me that, no matter how hard I bust my ass, there is always going to be some person who wants to write me off for attributes I cannot control. But that's where you learn who your friends are, right? There is a long list of people in my life who have plenty of respect for me, ask me for advice on stuff and things, and treat me like a regular human being. I prefer to be thankful for those people than let the rest drag me down.

Katie, you get nothing but empathy from me for how you feel, despite how critical this post may sound. I have a son and a daughter. The world does treat them differently. Nobody has ever "taken me aside" to tell me I am "going to have trouble" with my son when he gets older. It's flat out offensive to have a teacher deride my baby girl for being outspoken and spunky. It is painful to see what criticism does to her self-esteem. When someone IWASJUSTs you, they are being twice rude. So this is what I told both my kids, "If you had a $20, would you give it to $BULLY_NAME?"

"No," they responded.

Well, if you wouldn't give someone a $20, then don't give them the power to hurt your feelings.

tptacek11• 14 years ago

Here's me and my wife disagreeing.

Which is fine. Our daughter will learn how to toughen up and roll with the punches from Erin, and to not take any of this shit from me, and hopefully synthesize that into the CEOship of some galactically huge company from which she will fund our retirement.

mtoddh3• 14 years ago

Crazy interview story. Way inappropriate and at the very least shows he wasn't even paying attention. I'm a stay-at-home dad to my 18 month old son and also get nervous about what the job hunt will be like once I return to work. I guess when the time comes at least I can console myself with the knowledge that I probably won't have to deal with the interviewer showing me pictures of a tick on their ass. :-)

men harass each other with equal or greater tendency than their female peers...men are socialized to shrug it off or suck it up, and may even become desensitized to it after a while

I'd say that's pretty accurate - maybe shrugging off a little harassment is how we guys try to prove we're confident to each other.

maukdaddy2• 14 years ago

This just makes me sad for the industry as a whole. Unbelievable that in today's world women have to put up with this.

Guys, want to know how you can help change these kinds of attitudes? When you see/hear another guy make these kinds of comments, pull them aside and have a talk. Maybe it's a gentle reminder of how hurtful and counterproductive these kinds of attitudes are, or maybe it's a forceful "I never want to hear that shit again" - depends on the type of personality you're dealing with. Regardless, you need to have the difficult conversations with friends or colleagues who act this way, because turning a blind eye and ignoring the problem doesn't help anyone.

MattRogish3• 14 years ago

I think it has to be immediate and public. That doesn't mean severe or disrespectful. Everyone has to do it, but it certainly should be set up from the top down that this is unacceptable and will stop.

I take a page from the Results Only Work Environment: http://www.rowe.iambestbuy.com/sludge_busting.html

maukdaddy2• 14 years ago

Immediate and public is certainly the best approach, although it might depend on the environment, who is present, etc. Sometimes a conversation in private might be better.

You are exactly correct in regards to top down. A leader, manager, boss, etc. should immediately send the message that inappropriate behavior is not tolerated.

happimess• 14 years ago

Maukdaddy says that "it depends on the type of personality you're dealing with," and I think that's very true with regards to immediate-and-public versus later-and-in-private. With many people, an embarrassing confrontation in front of the whole team will cause them to dig deeper, because their pride is on the line. The same person might respond more thoughtfully to a private expression of disapproval.

crusso7• 14 years ago

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun?

While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions.

While there are always those who don't know how to avoid crossing the lines of appropriateness; do you feel that most of your coworkers are doing so?

kcunning4• 14 years ago

I'm actually a fairly baudy person. I've made sailors blush. I don't mind joking around at all.

What irks me is when someone does something sexist, and I do speak up about it... and I'm told to 'lighten up'. If it was important enough for me to say something, then at least acknowledge that.

Most of my co-workers are awesome. They'd never dream of making the dress comment, or tell me to go get their coffee. But it doesn't have to be everyone. Even a few jerks can make an environment go from awesome to horrible.

crusso7• 14 years ago

Fair enough. Is the place large enough to have a separate HR department? It's one thing to joke around, but another to make unwanted sexist comments. I've never known any HR folks who put up with the smallest bit of it. It's their job to get righteously pissed off at that kind of behavior.

guard-of-terra3• 14 years ago

Learn to troll. You, as a woman, can bite a man ten times worse than any male colleague. Just respond. The effect would be amazing.

omgsean5• 14 years ago

If you don't know how to avoid crossing the line you shouldn't be joking around. The onus is on you, the joke maker, to have a basic understanding of your audience as well as your privileges in society.

crusso7• 14 years ago

Did you see the story yesterday about a teacher being suspended (possibly permanently) for reading Ender's Game to his students because a parent accused the book of being "pornographic"?

While I agree that you should be careful about knowing your audience and where the lines are, there are some people who are going to have all kinds of lines in unexpected places. Sometimes, those lines move. Last week, a wry "yo mamma" might have been an appropriate come-back to Jim. Today, you might really upset him with the same comment because his mother died the day before.

The only real solution with some folks is to never so much as crack a smile at them. They may take it the wrong way.

VMG2• 14 years ago

Banter should be mutual. This extends to males as well. If your "witty remarks" aren't reciprocated, stop.

lhnn• 14 years ago

This is the key, and the most valuable comment in this entire thread. Just like making moves on people, the smartest tactic is to go as far as you feel like going, carefully, until it's not symmetrical.

The women I work with in IT have had incredibly adult jokes made about them and vice-versa, because it's known and comfortable. If it wasn't mutual, you should know to back off, because they aren't going to lighten up.

pingswept6• 14 years ago

Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here."

I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.

crusso7• 14 years ago

> Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here."

I would phrase it, "If everyone's humor had to be bland Disney G-rated fare, then a lot of fun would have been sucked out of our work environment."

jberryman2• 14 years ago

Completely agree. As a man witnessing the slightly sexist crap, and watching women have to sort of jokingly deflect it, is just incredibly uncomfortable. And the "joking" is never funny.

I'm going to be better at calling that shit out from now on.

guard-of-terra3• 14 years ago

Well, male coworkers pick on each other all the time. Even when they have absolutely no incentive to hurt, once there's an awkward situation and they can say something smart - they'll fire.

Most if nor all of humor revolves around something bad happening to someone. That's what funny.

(In normal workplace setting women are actually shielded from that friendly fire because men don't feel as comfortable/can't predict what's OK and what's not)

You want jokes, you have to acquire certain skin thickness. If you don't, then I don't want to work with you. Fun is fun.

strix_varius8• 14 years ago

There's definitely an overlap between funny jokes and 'sexual' jokes. The OP seems to have a hair trigger for 'sexist,' to the point where I suspect her co-workers weren't sad to see her leave.

stcredzero6• 14 years ago

I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions.

There is a big difference underneath the surface, though on the surface, many such incidents look like just "joking around." The difference has to do with social distance. If you feel an off-color remark is appropriate for someone you barely know, then I hate to tell you, but you're on one end of an asymmetric power relationship, and the other party has the short end of it.

It used to be, back in the 50's, men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met. That sort of thing is a clear indication of the uneven power relationship. To really understand, you need to be on the "short" end, and more, you need to understand what it's like growing up with that constantly in the environment.

Yes, often one doesn't have bad intentions. But I'm explaining it to you now. Just be honest with yourself about social distance and "kidding." If you're really self aware, you may start to realize there's been a difference in social distance between off-color remarks to women vs. others. (African Americans, perhaps?)

mtoddh3• 14 years ago

men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met

Unrelated to the thread, but isn't this how you get know people you've just met?

crusso7• 14 years ago

> But I'm explaining it to you now. Just be honest with yourself about social distance and "kidding."

I really wonder at the need to mischaracterize what I said above. Nowhere did I mention picking on anyone or engaging in humor at the expense of my coworkers.

Maybe you didn't realize you were battling a straw man. But I'm explaining it to you now. You're bringing a lot of your own preconceptions and baggage to the sub-thread off my post here that didn't say what you imply it said. It's right up there, go re-read it.

InclinedPlane8• 14 years ago

This ain't rocket science, it's trivial.

It's called having boundaries. You may reach into the pants of your lover but you damned sure aren't going to do that to a stranger or a coworker, right? Do most people have trouble keeping track of what things are appropriate in which contexts?

Around coworkers you act professionally. If you develop a friendship with your coworkers then you can change the way you act around those coworkers. If you become friends with a female coworker and she is ok with you making casually sexist jokes, then that's fine. But until you've crossed that friendship boundary then you should rightly feel inhibited to "make jokes" like that to a female coworker.

anon808• 14 years ago

does your office environment where you can joke around and have fun include racist humor?

streptomycin• 14 years ago

Mine does. We have people from a lot of different parts of the world, so there's plenty of opportunities for good fun.

The line between tasteless and tasteful humor is blurry.

crusso7• 14 years ago

Not at this company. I was told "white people are crazy" by an african american coworker at a different company a few years back.

I guess that was racist humor. I just LOL'd, though. Maybe because I'm "crazy".

Do you think I should have brought it up with HR instead?

strix_varius8• 14 years ago

By saying 'racist' humor, rather than 'humor about race,' you turned your question rhetorical.

However, humor about race, gender, age, etc can all be hilarious, even in an office.

mindstab3• 14 years ago

This is bullshit. There is a big wide area between joking around and sexism and unwanted flirting etc.

Guys like you are all like "it's just fun and we tease all the time" right up until another dude in the work force hits on you or makes a sex related comment about you, and then you freeze up, get awkward and generally hate it.

How would you feel if one of your male coworkers tried this stuff with you?

And do not even try to say its different because women are supposed to like men or something like that, it's 10 kinds of wrong. just don't.

aklemm• 14 years ago

Do you think reaching some critical mass of female developers (say 20%) will help prevent the problem? Perhaps an industry goal of reaching 20% female developers would be worthwhile (who would set such a goal?)

These problems also exist in the boardroom and some have pointed out that it takes 3 women at the table in order for the rest of the room to treat them fairly. If it's just one, she's sidelined. If it's two, then they're seen as just teaming up with each other, but three makes them legitimate in the eyes of the rest of the group. Perhaps larger groups of developers can make sure to have at least 3 women on the team to help eliminate issues.

sek• 14 years ago

The other factor is the stereotype in our media culture, look how Hollywood still pictures Nerds and technically versatile Women. A women who is good with computers and not a confident sexy goddess is automatically a looser.

Drbble4• 14 years ago

In pop media, everyone not a confident sexy god/goddess is a loser.

daenz17• 14 years ago

Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin.

EDIT>> I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have a healthy mind and continue to be around that kind of behavior, you have to grow a thicker skin.

tptacek11• 14 years ago

You're right. That is the healthiest approach for her. Which makes dealing with the bullshit that people fling at her for not having thicker skin all the more valuable. She could go along to get along, but hasn't, so everyone else won't have to go along with this crap too.

Your "hopefully that won't come across as sexist" bit, by the way, belittles the concern. It's not just her concern; it's my concern too, and you've belittled it. Thanks, internet message board guy.

daenz17• 14 years ago

> Your "hopefully that won't come across as sexist" bit, by the way, belittles the concern. It's not just her concern; it's my concern too, and you've belittled it.

I'm sorry if you feel that way. Someone "getting the shaft" is a common phrase. When I typed it, I realized that it had obvious masculine connotations, so I thought I'd point that out with a smiley face. The rest of my response should make it more than obvious that I took her concern and health seriously.

daenz17• 14 years ago

> You're right. That is the healthiest approach for her. Which makes dealing with the bullshit that people fling at her for not having thicker skin all the more valuable. She could go along to get along, but hasn't, so everyone else won't have to go along with this crap too.

Sorry, I'm a little tired today, could you rephrase this so it's easier to tell if you're being sarcastic? (serious question)

alanh4• 14 years ago

Really? Your sole contribution here is an earnest restatement of the dismissive line decried over and over in the linked piece? For shame.

Edit in reply: Exactly how are these not all the same: “Hang in there,” “lighten up,” “change your perspective”?

daenz17• 14 years ago

How is what I said dismissive? I take her concern seriously, and I gave her my opinion of the best option for her health. I'm being a realist here, there is no "changing everyones behavior." There is only changing your perspective.

daenz17• 14 years ago

They have different connotations:

"Hang in there" - common phrase of support. Have you seriously never heard of this? "lighten up" - dismissive, which I didn't say. "change your perspective" - Helpful advice for many situations people have to endure unjustly. If you've never been in a situation like that, be glad. If you are, and you cannot change it easily, changing your perspective works.

You're trying way too hard to villainize me, to the point of erring on the side rashness.

EDIT >> removed ad-hominem. Sorry, I slipped!

logjam• 14 years ago

Uh, nobody is talking about changing any "natural" behavior (whatever in hell you expect that to mean), no matter how shit-headed.

Behave however you like outside the work environment.

But if you behave in a sexist or racist way in the work environment you can expect to be gone. Gone. Period.

Stop blaming the victim.

daenz17• 14 years ago

> Stop blaming the victim.

First of all, stop putting words in my mouth. This villainization of everyone who doesn't instantly white-knight is insane.

> But if you behave in a sexist or racist way in the work environment you can expect to be gone. Gone. Period.

Great, maybe you should run the company she works at. Or maybe you should put your money where your mouth is and go try to stir up a lawsuit for her. Or you can just posture and puff up your chest in the comments.

DanBC4• 14 years ago

Assume for a moment that you're right. Assume, even, that the original poster agrees with you.

Now, re-read the post. You'll see that the poster doesn't have a thin skin; they're just sharing something that happens all the time.

The blatant stuff is, perhaps, easier to deal with because you can let off steam and have a rant. It's the gradual drip drip drip of every day comments - comments that your colleagues don't get, and the only reason they don't get them is because they are male - that just wears you down.

UK Comedian Josie Long has a good talk about it here:

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1oXIZVLthw)

I don't get the idea that these are weak people, or oversensitive, or they have weak skins. I get the impression that they've just had enough.

(I hope you see that I've tried to engage your argument and not just attack you. Personally, I really dislike the idea of telling people that "jerks are out there and it'll take years to change them so sorry, deal with it.)

daenz17• 14 years ago

I don't think she has thin skin, or is weak, or oversensitive. And believe me, I know what it's like to have an above-average wearing of my patience daily from people. What has helped me is understanding the psychology of why people behave the way that rubs negatively, and framing it in that every time I deal with it. That's the change of perspective, that's growing a thicker skin.

At the same time, the realist side of me knows that people take a long time to change, and in the meantime, I'm going to be the one that has to deal with it.

wpietri16• 14 years ago

That is an excellent talk. She really conveys why all the little stuff mentioned in the article adds up to a big problem. Thanks for posting it.

georgieporgie8• 14 years ago

Well said.

I'm seriously considering leaving the field of software because I'm tired of working with 25 - 35 year old manchildren.

pagekalisedown• 14 years ago

Manchildren indeed. I think the worse manchildren are found in the game industry.

Shivetya• 14 years ago

Wait till you come across the thumpers, we have one, his only saving grace from being shown the door is that he falls into a different category.

Still, why would you want someone as a manager who would keep his own wife's car locked up at work because she failed to be properly respectful?

bh422226• 14 years ago

Still, why would you want someone as a manager who would keep his own wife's car locked up at work because she failed to be properly respectful?Still, why would you want someone as a manager who would keep his own wife's car locked up at work because she failed to be properly respectful?

What in the hell kind of place are you working at!?

alanh4• 14 years ago

Curious here: I assume a “thumper” is short for a “Bible thumper”?

And what do you mean by “his only saving grace from being shown the door is that he falls into a different category”?

jonstjohn2• 14 years ago

I studied (and loved) Physics during my undergraduate education, but left it sophomore year because Physics 200 was filled with immature (seemingly) teenage boys with no social skills. I was looking for a broader experience. Tried biology (study of life, better male/female ratio), studied abroad in China, then graduated with a degree in Religion. It took me quite a few years to start working in software development, which I love, and brought me back to my analytic roots. Sometimes I wish I would have stuck with Physics, but had a lot of great experiences in the world on the path I chose.

So, I can relate to not always jiving with the software culture, but I'm definitely sticking with it b/c it is what I love doing - and I have found a really great community in it despite some of the short-comings.

drostie5• 14 years ago

A bit off topic, but if you ever want a syllabus of what you've missed in physics with some links to good material, Gerard 't Hooft's page is pretty spiffy-keen:

http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~hooft101/theorist.html

agateform3• 14 years ago

Generalizing 25-35 males working in the industry as manchildren can be seen as misandry (hatred of man).

Misogyny does not justify misandry.

parfe4• 14 years ago

You deny her very experience?

Tichy21• 14 years ago

Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses?

I am glad I don't have to deal with things like the ones mentioned in the article, just wanted to chime in and say that most programming jobs suck anyway. So it seems possible to me that the expression of the suckiness apparently took on some sexist form, that is not to say that the male colleagues don't suffer through crap in the same job. It is definitely possible for male people to be in crappy jobs and having to look for something better.

So is the corollary of the article that all possible jobs for female programmers suck?

tptacek11• 14 years ago

Are you OK with being on a team where one of your teammates feels stressed out, defensive, and alienated because of comments being made by another member of your team? Would you be OK with it if the comments were about their personal appearance? Their hair? The quality of their clothing? Their accent? Lots of funny jokes to be had about accents! Are you OK with any of this?

No? I didn't think so. Me neither. So what are you really arguing about here?

She pointed out a lot of sexist bullshit she had to deal with. The low-cut-dress thing was just one of them. Are you now a little more alert to the fact that what you might have thought was an innocuous joke actually made a teammate feel like they have a target on their back? I am! I thought to myself, "wow, I can imagine people I've worked with in the past who would say something like that; holy shit, I might have even laughed!". Maybe you too? Then she did you a favor by speaking up.

It'd be good if people would stop expecting the Magna Carta from posts like this.

Tichy21• 14 years ago

What I meant is this: she quit programming because she was in sucking programming jobs. She should have looked for a non-sucking programming job. This is not so much different from what most men in programming jobs experience - being in a job that sucks, and actively having to look for a better one.

Edit: maybe I can't relate because my tendency is to quit if I find myself in a job that I don't like. This has happened to me a lot of times already. Perhaps others are more in a "heck, I'll change this place to suit me" frame of mind. I never understood that notion, or perhaps I am just too pessimistic about the ability of "places" to change. I reckon if you don't like how company x operates, find a better job or start your own company so that YOU can define the rules.

msbarnett6• 14 years ago

> Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses?

In the workplace? Not if they want to keep their job.

Seriously, in most industries nobody would blink twice if someone was fired on the spot for saying that they were going to sit across from a woman wearing a low-cut dress so that they could ogle her breasts.

IT has, comparatively, incredibly low standards of professional behaviour.

kitsune_3• 14 years ago

I have to disagree. This shit happens everywhere. My mother was a kindergarten teacher, this was normal stuff when dealing with school officials. Same thing with my gf who works in advertisement. Or many of my friends who work in the fashion industry. It also happens in restaurants, kitchens, normal office environments, lawyer partnerships (!) and so on.

Tichy21• 14 years ago

I don't know the US, so I can't comment on that. I just suspect that getting comments about their cleavage is something women experience in all aspects of life, not only in IT jobs (and I don't want to excuse it or anything, I just assume it is what happens - not sure what to think about the "boiling breasts" issue, though). I just wonder, before taking those anecdotes about sexism in the industry at face value, if she mixed up her problems as a woman in general with the problems of annoying programming jobs.

bh422226• 14 years ago

I can't seem to find a study which showed that while only %3 of men ever make such comments, women involved in our community experience this a steady stream of subtle harassment. And the sad fact is that this is due to the lopsided share of men to women.

If we had a 50/50 split some women would never hear such comments, some would hear then extremely rarely, while the percentage of men making them would stay the same.

And can we ever hope to get 100% of any large group anywhere, to never make occasionally offensive remarks? The crux here really is that this type of offensive remarks have only one target - women, and that combined with the lop-sided sex ratio results in harassment.

ajross5• 14 years ago

Sorry, but if one person in 30 is being a jerk, that is a steady stream of subtle harassment. Most professionals deal with what, 60 people on a weekly basis? That's two jerks every week.

And your math is off. Even if there was only one woman in tech anywhere, reducing 100% male interaction to 50% male interaction would only decrease the jerk count by a factor of two.

bh422226• 14 years ago

I don't know about you, but I deal with jerks all of the damn time. But luckily no more or less than all of my peers. This would be very different if I was a woman.

And we wouldn't reduce male interaction by 50%, we would increase female participation by hundreds of percents.

That way if someone is being a jerk, many people can all confirm he's being a jerk.

debacle• 14 years ago

I would expect most professionals deal with fewer than 30 people on a weekly basis. Thinking back on my last four jobs, I don't know if I ever dealt with more than fifteen, and I was a project manager in two of those roles.

stcredzero6• 14 years ago

This reminds me of growing up Asian in rural northern Appalachia. It also reminds me of discussions I've heard on local African American radio talk shows. There's this constant subtle pressure one feels, and it is the result of knowing one is subject to arbitrary disrespect coming from out of the woodwork. The fact that it's often "plausibly" deniable doesn't make it better.

Knowing that you have a target on you does have an effect. That it's fairly uncommon doesn't make it better, if it happens often enough that the possibility is always lurking in the background. It's easy to see how this could impact someone involved in creative activities.

yequalsx• 14 years ago

Thank you for your comments. What you said about subtle, constant pressure made a lot of sense to me and put things into perspective. I have a better understanding now.

alanh4• 14 years ago

Thanks for this. I’m going to be more aware of these kind of things and more watchful to make sure I don’t contribute to this myself and more observant of those around me.

Now, I have a question for the women here — sometimes I’ll hear a woman make the joke about belonging in the kitchen. Do you have insight into why that might happen sometimes and what the best sort of response would be?

kcunning4• 14 years ago

Heh. I have a blog post about that as well! Basically, some women do really believe in 'traditional' roles for women. Maybe they've benefited from the current situation. Maybe it's part of their upbringing. If that's why they're making the comment, feel free to call them out on it.

If they're doing it to be ironic (I know I have), then you can probably shrug it off. Many of us have learned to be subversively snarky to put off the ones above.

alanh4• 14 years ago

Feel free to link up that post!

And thanks for replying. I think I have mostly seen the subversive-snark variety and just kind of laughed and moved on, so that’s good to hear.

maco3• 14 years ago

I like to non-verbally snark, by breaking people's brains.

I wear long skirts all the time, and sometimes I cover my hair. So I must be traditionalist/conservative, right? No, I just don't like how jeans are all about objectifying my butt and also never fit right. Some of my coverings keep my hair nicely off the back of my neck in the summer, others let me have pretty flowy fabric (I like textiles). I'm pretty clearly not a booth babe with that skirt though, so maybe I'm a girlfriend? Oh wait, the shirt I'm wearing is from an Ubuntu Developer Summit. Hmm... Wait, but I'm knitting, back to the girlfriend idea, maybe? Oh nevermind, this is too confusing, how about talking instead of trying to guess?

I have noticed, btw, that a large portion of female developers knit or crochet. Maybe it's because knitting & crochet patterns look a lot like code, complete with for-loops and while-loops. Also, ya know, make a scarf, make a website, make a pie...make stuff!

huxley• 14 years ago

I'm not a woman, but my response in the past has always been: "Jeez, I wouldn't even joke about that."

You can be friendly and still express disapproval.

Context does matter, women do have more latitude in making that kind of joke, but it still isn't something I like having reinforced (lots of people suck at context).

Why would they do it on-purpose/non-ironically/non-sarcastically?

I've also known women to do it thinking that it will help them fit in. To be one of the guys. It really sucks to be excluded.

Women can also behave badly just like men do. If you work in a sexist environment, you can pick up those attitudes and become tone-deaf. Maybe they don't realize how much it can hurt other women to reinforce that sort of idea.

Prophasi• 14 years ago

Some women are secure enough that it bounces off when stupid people act stupid. Some are making meta-jokes about sexism and how backward comments like that are. Some are comfortable with the prototypical 50s-style gender roles that you abhor.

To know "what the best sort of the response would be," you'd have to know a lot about the person you're talking to and how they'll respond to your unsolicited advice, and no one on HN is going to be able to grant you that.

But then, I'm not too sympathetic to what strikes me as an arrogant desire to transform the primitive worldview of a thinking adult with your wet blanket nostrums. By all means intervene if someone's being demeaning to another person, but in the case of a woman making a kitchen joke, I doubt you're dealing with a neanderthal waiting to be shaken into the 21st century by sobering thoughts about how retrograde it is to even joke about such things.

Emotional fragility has got to be at an all-time high these days.

squadron• 14 years ago

Silicon Valley investors (PG included) prefer to invest in young rockstarish startups, so why are we surprised when we see these high profile startups do immature and sexist things?

If maturity and manners were important to investors, they would be screening for it. As far as I know, they are not.

bh422226• 14 years ago

Because being young does not mean you have to be immature, and sexism should have nothing do with either immaturity and youth.

moxiemk12• 14 years ago

And indeed - by declaring yourself mature enough to handle a startup at a young age, you're also declaring yourself mature enough to act like a human being. Young people in prominent settings shouldn't get a free pass - if you want to be in the "big leagues", you've got to act like you belong there.

benatkin• 14 years ago

That's an unsubstantiated claim. I don't think it's true. From what I've heard about the YC interview and decision-making process I think they place a high value on maturity. The ones I've met have fun but don't have rockstar attitudes.

Also the awkwardness she's talking about doesn't come only from having a big ego. It's from constantly saying a single asinine statement. The person saying it often doesn't mean for it to have the effect it does.

Drbble4• 14 years ago

"Rockstar" is a meaningless word. Real rock stars, like famous musicians, work their butts off with large teams, and then celebrate, sometimes too hard.

danielharan2• 14 years ago

Her bio says where she works, and it's not a startup, let alone a YC startup.

doki_pen• 14 years ago

I'm willing to bet that this type of behavior is a lot less likely in a start up. Something about assholes and corporate jobs. I'd like to think nothing like that would ever happen where I work. Does any women on hear have any first hand experience?

One thing that did bother me about the article though. She complained about being asked to cook, but on her about page it says she loves to cook and looks for any excuse. I'm sure she has a better idea of what her boss meant when he asked, but it makes me wonder if she has become oversensitive after so many bad experiences. I hope not.

ootachi• 14 years ago

On the contrary, this happens all the time in startups. Think about it: a lot of startups consist of early 20-something males running everything.

hellerbarde2• 14 years ago

oh, wow, yeah, i never thought about it that way. good point!

tptacek11• 14 years ago

Are we talking about the same startup field that puts people on stages at conferences with slide decks full of half naked women?

In any case: she's not asking for a holy jihad. She's not claiming to be the victim of a violent crime. All that needs to happen is for people to stop telling her to "lighten up".

itg• 14 years ago

This is just my experience, but the corporate jobs I worked at take sexual harassment much more seriously than startups. One comment and you will be sent straight to HR.

klausa2• 14 years ago

You see, I have problem with posts like this.

First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset.

But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying.

    "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"

I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's cool to say things like that. As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. But it's really hard to break this habit, and this "Hey, it's just meaningless joke, right?!" line of thought. I try, I really try, but sometimes I forget myself.

On a similar note - I have exact same problem with how I perceive woman and man having multiple sexual partners. "Good key opens many locks, but good lock is opened by only one key" and all that bullshit - I know that it's ridiculous to hold woman and men to different standard in this regard, and I mostly learned to don't do that, but my... instinct that was ingrained in me by society tells me otherwise.

I find myself struggling to suppress my subconscious mind in this regard, and frankly, I don't know how I can help it.

Edit for clarity: I don't have problem with such posts being written and upvoted, quite opposite actually, I'm glad they are written and read. I have problem with how posts like this make me feel.

hythloday14• 14 years ago

Just being sincerely aware of it, imho, puts you in the right place. No-one expects you to be able to discard your upbringing, just to be able to critique it. The concept of noblesse oblige, I think, somewhat applies; if you're lucky enough to be born with privilege, use it for good (i.e. to eradicate that privilege).

jamesaguilar3• 14 years ago

I imagine if the consequences of making comments like these were dire enough, you'd find a way. It would only take one or two times getting fired for sexual harassment for you to clean up your act. Being conscious of the issue is a start, but it doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to behave like a mature adult in an equal society.

BTW, you don't have a problem with posts like this, or if you do, you didn't state it clearly. From what I can tell, posts like this have a problem with you.

ugh• 14 years ago

I don't really understand why you have a problem with these kinds of posts, then. You seem to be keenly aware of the fact that you are the problem and that you have to work to better yourself.

InclinedPlane8• 14 years ago

The core problem here is that interpersonal relationships are not government by simple context free objective rules.

Person A in Situation X can say and do things that are perfectly acceptable that would be deplorable and disgusting if Person B in Situation Y did precisely, exactly, identically the same thing. You can grab your lover's ass, but try that on a random stranger.

Which makes telling people what they can and can't do supremely difficult. There are no objective rules for acceptable human behavior, nor can there be. Which is why feedback is so important.

antiterra6• 14 years ago

I don't think this is the core problem. Feedback is occurring, and the response isn't "Oh, I'm sorry. I'll avoid doing that in the future."

It's "lighten up!" That translates roughly to: "what I was doing that bothered you is so important to me that I refuse to stop, so get over it." I think that is the core problem.

pippy• 14 years ago

Admittedly I did the exact same thing as you, right down to the same quote.

Most male dominated fields of work behave like this - it's a reflection of subtle rules society that we're taught at a young age. We can try to patch it over but it might cut deeper than just culture, it maybe simply inherently biological the behavior of men around a single female.

Cushman9• 14 years ago

Well, first off, this is definitely not an inherent biological thing. There is a large population of (straight, sexually active) men who have no difficulty treating women in social and professional settings as peers rather than sexual objects.

If you find that you have difficulty doing this, then you are literally a part of the problem with our community that we are discussing, and you should be spending a non-trivial amount of your time learning to manage your disability.

And I mean that-- it's something that you grew up with, it's a problem, we're all here together to help you through it. But first you need to admit that it's something you have to fix.

chipsy• 14 years ago

Being faced with that kind of struggle is good. Everyone who's lived long enough can recall some time when they were, in hindsight, a horrible person. And if you're aware of it, you're winning.

No pain, no gain.

ryanwaggoner7• 14 years ago

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is.

At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to notice and comment on a low-cut dress in another context (like a bar)? What about with my wife? Is it sexist and demeaning to find her sexually attractive?

I'm not disagreeing that the statement is offensive and inappropriate, but I'm not sure it's sexist.

richardk3• 14 years ago

"Start wearing sweaters, even though my breasts feel like they're boiling in there (yup, that's one reason women like low tops, guys)?"

Swizec2• 14 years ago

Public perception (as judged by art, which usually represents a slightly caricatured version of reality) seems to imply that your attractiveness and the appropriateness of your comments are inversely correlated.

That is to say, if you tell a woman she looks good, it will be a compliment if she likes you, a sexist remark if she doesn't.

ajross5• 14 years ago

This is always where geeks run off the rails in discussions like this. We want to come up with rules for things: either this statement is "sexist" or it is not, and here is the objective reason for that decision.

But it misses the point. Context matters. In a utopian environment where women felt equally respected, sure, a sideways/slightly-inappropriate comment would be fine. In some workplaces today that might even be true. But it's not the norm, and in the real world people feel disrespected by this kind of treatment. Not everyone (but some, sure, as I'm sure someone will point out needlessly) likes the fact that their perfectly "normal" clothing choice can make them "attractive" in one context but the butt of a joke in another. Men, on the whole, don't deal with that.

wpietri16• 14 years ago

It is offensive and inappropriate because it's sexist in this context.

drostie5• 14 years ago

Sexism is endemic to the society and to the relationships which generate that comment.

So, right. Imagine that you're a woman. You're told from a very young age that you have to watch what you wear, and where you wear it, and how you walk in it, how well-lit it is -- you don't want that sort of Attention. And wear high heels, they make you more attractive -- but don't wear high heels because they might be clumsy if you have to flee from Unwanted Attention.

The problem isn't the clothes. The problem is the Unwanted Attention. As a man, your defenses against sexual assault -- at least the ones that you're taught by the culture -- are chiefly, "don't go to jail." That's because that's the only major place you have to worry about Unwanted Attention. There are maybe some Bad Neighborhoods which you're asked to memorize and route around in addition.

"I know where I'm sitting!" paints women as the objects of your sexual indulgence, and commits to undressing them with your eyes. That's probably Unwanted Attention, but it is not the Problem.

The Problem is "Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention?" -- where you imply that the woman is ultimately responsible for the sad state of affairs culminating in the Unwanted Attention, rather than the males thus attendant and the culture thus pervasive.

drhayes94• 14 years ago

> Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)?

Yes, Virginia, this is sexist. Holy hell, is it sexist.

You are characterizing a woman's behavior in terms of how it makes you, as a man, feel. There are many reasons that a human might dress a particular way, but by characterizing it as a gender-based, "she wore that to make me do this" kind of transaction you have incorrectly emphasized a single way. This woman wore it for no other reason than to attract male attention? Really? Are you sure? Her decision is entirely based on how it would make a man feel?

I'm a heterosexual man and I wear certain jeans because I like to show off my butt. That's fine. But am I doing it because I want to attract "female attention"? Not exactly. This turns on a subtle point, but it's very important: I wore them for me, not for anyone else. Feeling attractive is not the same as receiving attention. I don't want to be honked at, felt up, leered at, or even commented on. But I do want to look good. Does that make sense?

This situation is only exacerbated when you bring in gender dynamics: men and women are equal, yes, but women are the ones who've been oppressed for centuries and are struggling up the slope to reach equality. What a man says to a woman exists within this context, so simply reversing the roles and pointing out that it's okay HERE but not THERE is not sufficient.

Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaze The section about feminism and the male gaze applies here, too.

maco3• 14 years ago

Depending on your proportions, some necklines might work better for movement or fit. Like, high necklines on a rectangular t-shirt, if you're well-endowed, have a tendency to creep up and get all chokey. Scoop necks do a better job of this.

Some people might consider scoop neck to be "low cut" (because the collar bones are visible--something generally not accepted/expected of men) while others might not call something "low cut" til cleavage is visible.

Now, a button-up shirt does a nice job of leaving space for your throat so you don't feel like you're choking, but in case you haven't noticed, it can be difficult these days to find button-up shirts for women that have all the buttons. It has become extremely common to manufacture women's blouses without the second button, or rather, with the second button roughly 6 inches below the first one. I suspect this is due to rules in schools and workplaces allowing for the top button to be left unbuttoned. That way, you're following the rule and showing some decolletage. I once went through every button-up blouse I could find at Target. I came away with having found one rack that had shirts with an upper-chest button. (Oh, and if you button all the buttons on one that's missing that upper-chest one, it just gapes open)

If the shirt itself is not quite wide enough to accommodate being well-endowed, a lower neckline can allow the fabric to move horizontally to better fit around the girth involved by opening up a bit wider. On the one hand, you could get a bigger size (if that's even available--there are limits), but if you've got a small waist, there's a tailoring problem for you. And if you've got shoulders that are narrow but a chest that isn't, that's a much more difficult tailoring problem.

---

Re: bar. I'd rather be asked "read any good books lately?" than told "that dress makes your boobs look good." But then I'm someone commenting on Hacker News, so that might be to be expected.

---

Re: your wife. I suspect there's a standing agreement with her regarding how you interact in terms of expressing your sexuality. I doubt you'd comment to a male coworker on how his trousers make his lower half look, but if you were married to a man, you might to him.

scott_s9• 14 years ago

A friend of mine has large breasts. A difficulty she has is that any top that is open at all shows a lot of cleavage.

And, yes, if you make a sexually charged comment on a co-worker, it is sexist. Context matters.

georgieporgie8• 14 years ago

Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)?

So, I'm not going to agree or disagree with you, since I don't really know exactly what you're saying.

I will say this, though: there is professional attire for women. Generally speaking, this doesn't involve form-hugging clothing. A fitted women's dress shirt is not form-hugging, by the way.

Personally, I recognize that I have an unfortunate automatic physiological response to breasts. I've discussed this with female friends whom I've respected and liked strictly as friends. If exposed to low-cut tops, I find my eyes darting to them, particularly when I'm distracted or concentrating on some thought. If I were in a position where a well-endowed female coworker were wearing very snug or revealing clothing, I'm honestly not sure how I would handle the situation.

Czarnian2• 14 years ago

- Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)?

It's none of your concern why a woman dresses the way she does. As long as she isn't violating company policy, she is under no obligation to justify her wardrobe to anyone else. And if she is violating company policy, that's between her and HR, not you.

nl2• 14 years ago

is this kind of response sexist and demeaning

Yes

Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)?

Because they think it looks good or is comfortable or is fashionable or they didn't have anything clean or their sister bought it for them and they are seeing them for lunch.

Have you heard of the Bechdel Test[1]? It's a simple way of seeing gender bias in a movie: It has to have at least two women in it, Who talk to each other, About something other than a man.

By thinking the way a woman dresses is about men your comment shows the same bias.

Turn it around: why do men buy Ferraris if not attract female attention?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dykes_to_Watch_Out_For#Bechdel_...

oodalolly2• 14 years ago

I've never understood this question. "Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention?"

Women wear low cut dresses because they feel good in them, because they feel they look good in them. Showing off your breasts, if you consider them an attractive part of you, is like showing off your face, or arms, or legs. This question is like asking, "Why do women brush their hair, if not to attract male attention?" Feeling good gives you confidence, and that confidence occurs internally, not because a man can give you external validation of sexual appeal. (My cleavage may turn you on, but it doesn't turn me on, or make me feel sexual just because it's there.)

Women rarely get dressed with men in mind, and it's fascinating to me that men think otherwise.

And similarly, feeling good about oneself is not equivalent to feeling sexually attractive. And having someone point out my sexuality all day long, when it's not even on my mind, is extremely uncomfortable, invasive, and (for lack of a less cliched term, apologies in advance) objectifying.

ckpwong6• 14 years ago

This is almost along the lines of the "if you don't want to get raped, don't dress like a whore" argument.

Low cut dress can be functional (as described by Katie). Or maybe she's out for a date after work (in which case there's feminism is appropriate, encouraged, and even sometimes needed for the benefit of the relationship). Or she just like that dress or the way the dress looks on her (in much the same way some really rip guys love to wear tight tops).

Most women do realize when they wear low cut dresses, she will attract attention, both positive and negative. At the same time, it doesn't give her coworkers free rein to make comments like that -- the comment was made to other male in the room but was directed at and objectified her.

araneae2• 14 years ago

>Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)?

I would say for the most part it's not all that conscious. We buy the dress if we like it. In some cases we might not buy it if it looks too revealing, or buy it because it's especially sexy, but for the most part dresses are cut to the style of the day and it has little to do with the intentions of the woman wearing them.

Personally I've started consciously looking for low-cut tops and dresses for the first time in my life, because they're easier to breastfeed in. Most of my dresses and tops are cut too high to do that easily so I need to expand my wardrobe. So sorry, all that cleavage is not for you, it's for my baby :).

pygorex• 14 years ago

>> "Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. > At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace?

Well since the quote essentially boils down to "damn look at dem titties" then yes it is very demeaning & disrespectful!

It's also sexist. Why? Because it's self-absorbed. Whoever spoke that quote wasn't thinking about how their words might make Katie feel in a room-full of people. "I'm a man I like titties and anyone else's thoughts and feelings don't matter." That's sexism in a nutshell: that the default and correct perspective is the male perspective. That anyone who doesn't hold this perspective just needs to "chill out".

Tichy21• 14 years ago

I think if you are Brad Pitt or George Clooney (or some other desirable man), that comment is fun and flirtatious, otherwise it is creepy. If you are not Brad Pitt or George Clooney, you should make yourself invisible in the presence of women. Or maybe you could offer foot massages.

damoncali• 14 years ago

I have problem with how posts like this make me feel.

That's because there is nothing wrong with you, and yet everyone around you is telling you you're a problem. Kinda like the OP feels at work.

Tichy21• 14 years ago

As a supplement to those posts, I would like a set of instructions about how to talk to women properly (and women with low cut dresses especially). I mean it seems possible that the "I know where I'm sitting" guy was simply crap at giving compliments, rather than a sexist jerk. Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt with somehow.

omgsean5• 14 years ago

>Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt with somehow.

Not at work.

hythloday14• 14 years ago

I would like a set of instructions about how to talk to women properly

Like you would talk to men. Simple.

reneherse6• 14 years ago

How to talk to women in the workplace: Treat them first and foremost as persons, not as sexual beings, attractive or otherwise. Imagine she's your sister, your mom, a CEO or Secretary of State, and proceed normally. Be a gentleman.

And I'd say the "person-first" rule goes for how to treat other men, too.

Jabbles8• 14 years ago

To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say.

Why would you make sexual comments at work? Making jokes is fine, commenting on clothes is fine, telling a joke involving sex is probably fine (depending on the joke...). Having a conversation (two-way) about sex is fine.

Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal is inappropriate. I don't see how you can't see that someone might be offended by it.

hythloday14• 14 years ago

I don't think we should be censuring someone who is brave enough to acknowledge their sexism. I also think you're misreading the post, which didn't say that it was "reasonable"...it said it was "cool". Crucial difference.

ErrantX7• 14 years ago

> Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal is inappropriate. I don't see how you can't see that someone might be offended by it.

Absolutely.

One of the first jobs I worked was doing admin & tech support in a small office - full of women. Worst 6 months of my life, and my experience was much the same as this bloggers.

Which has really helped me avoid this sort of problematic behaviour now I am working in a mostly-male industry/workplace.

tomp4• 14 years ago

Why not? If a man (fellow coworker) has nice biceps, I say it (I'm not gay, not trying to seduce him, but being fit is very high on my values list). If a woman (fellow coworker) is cute, I say it (I'm not trying to seduce her, I just think it's nice to give compliments).

Asking her to take notes (as in, not asking anyone else), though, is a completely different story. However, I believe that some women handle it in a not very effective way. I might be a sexist too! If you tell me in a nice way (simply saying that you think what is going on is wrong/unfair) I will reflect, and most likely change my behaviour in the future. However, if you attack me, or even worse, say nothing but rant on the internet, I will take it personally, as an attack on my identity, and I might refuse to change, out of principle.

What we're trying to do here is enlighten a certain aspect of our society that is wrong/unjust, and I believe that should be done by teaching people, not attacking them.

(I'm not saying that the OP definitely took the wrong path. She might have told her boss, and they did nothing different, they didn't learn. In that case, I see no better option but to attack, shame them...)

erichocean• 14 years ago

I don't disagree with anything you have to say, but a thought did enter my mind:

At what point did we become okay with excluding sexuality from human lives, or a large portion of them -- the time we spend working? Sexuality is every bit as much a "human" endeavor as, say, eating -- and we don't (currently) say: never eat at work, work is for work only (despite the fact that food does separate people from each other, and accentuates differences).

Anyway, a random rambling, but I thought I'd share anyway...

rokhayakebe3• 14 years ago

We've just had an identical (100%) feeling. I was telling myself "Come on, stop crying like a baby" until I read those words. I feel extremely sorry for her and anyone who has to go through this.

knightenvy8• 14 years ago

I feel as you do, though she did not help her situation but not doing anything about it.

xbryanx• 14 years ago

Every time you're ready to make a comment like that (which is WAY beyond inappropriate) imagine saying it to your sister, imagine saying it when you are the only many in the room, imagine a situation where you are not the dominant one with the power.

bdr• 14 years ago

This is a great comment. Imagining these alternative situations uses your intuitive knowledge of how things work instead of trying to apply abstract principles.

jmadsen• 14 years ago

Sorry, that's lame.

I grew up in a small, all-white community where jokes about blacks were common and accepted.

when I grew up and moved away, I learned how bad that was. so I stopped.

I don't ever, ever slip up, because I don't think that way any more.

"I try, I really try, but sometimes I forget myself."? No, you just THINK you are really trying.

cellularmitosis4• 14 years ago

I think there's a distinction which needs to be acknowledged here. Skirt-chasing is something which is appropriate in some situations, but not others, while being racist is wrong in all situations.

If someone grew up in a racist environment, the goal is for them to stop thinking that way, period.

If someone grew up in an environment where they mistakenly believed it was always appropriate to verbally acknowledge your sexual attraction to someone, the goal is simply for them to get better at recognizing situations in which they need to self-censor.

There is no shame in being sexually attracted to women, but verbally acknowledging it is inappropriate in some situations.

erikpukinskis2• 14 years ago

Thank you for your honesty and self reflection. I really appreciate it.

> frankly, I don't know how I can help it.

Two things you can do are practice and self-education. Subscribe to http://geekfeminism.org and http://feministing.com. Reading those posts will give you the stories and information you need to understand the effects of your actions.

Then practice. You won't immediately be able to catch everything, so just focus on the things that make you hesitate. Those moments when I think "maybe I shouldn't say this", I almost always learn later that I was right. Use at hesitation to do a little analysis of what the effect of your words might be.

You can also practice in your head, or in conversation. When you're on the bus, think about things you said recently, and analyze them. Look for things that might've hurt people. When you're having conversations with people, think about what you would've said in that situation. Practice the analysis, and practice saying the right things.

You'll never be perfect, but you can TOTALLY get to the point where you're mostly not harming people. Which is an awesome place to get from the default for men, which is harming people over all day without having any clue.

MartinCron10• 14 years ago

I think it's really brave of you to own up to this. So often people develop a sort of bunker mentality and can't see other perspectives.

If there's hope for you, there's hope for all of us.

ivankirigin• 14 years ago

If you comment on a woman's neckline at work, you definitely have a problem and should go out of your way to change your behavior and thinking.

cooperq• 14 years ago

Wow a person of privilege (male) feels uncomfortable when being asked not to do something that harms a person of less privilege (female). How difficult that must be for you. I really feel your plight. Asshole.

nvarsj• 14 years ago

I have a lot of relatives that grew up in a apartheid South Africa. And a few of them have a similar explanation for their attitude towards black people - "oh, well that's how I grew up/everyone was doing it!"

But it's a load of BS. I have close relatives who grew up in that environment who are not racist at all. If you think for yourself, there is little chance of social pressures influencing your behavior - at the risk of ostracism, of course (hello High School!).

Regardless of past influences, I believe that we, as rational beings, can overcome any behavior w/ practice and effort. To not do so is a character flaw that should be worked on.

mkramlich5• 14 years ago

A lot of people can't handle jokes. And a lot of people can't handle sexuality and playfulness, or confuse sexual jokes with sexism. Of course, sometimes somebody goes too far. But also sometimes somebody is too sensitive. It's probably better to err on the safe side and not risk offending somebody unless you're already pretty sure it would be okay with them.

I'm having flashbacks now to the video on Reddit yesterday where the black female college student went psycho apeshit in class when the professor was lecturing about evolution. She seemed to think there was some kind of persecution going on involving evolution and black people, and became violently angry at both the professor and the other students, interpreting things seemingly 180 degrees opposite, almost hallucination-like, compared to everybody else. Compared to the sane, healthy, objective people. They recorded it on many cellphones too. The point I'm making, in relation to the OA, is that yes there is sexism and sometimes inappropriate things are said. But yes it is also true that sometimes some people are wacked in the mind and/or misinterpret things. And without really knowing the specific person directly or seeing the events directly with our own eyes, we can't really know which it is.

I'll just close with the observation that there are probably at least 10's of millions of Americans, if not 100 million plus, that believe the Christian God exists, lightning bolts and all, angry man in the clouds, all the miracles, etc. Some of those folks also work in offices and post on the web. Some program. Some are "scientists" even. So take everything you read with a dose of skepticism.

I'm also having flashbacks to all the times I've been asked to take notes in meetings. I'm pretty sure I'm male too.

m-photonic2• 14 years ago

>I have exact same problem with how I perceive woman and man having multiple sexual partners. "Good key opens many locks, but good lock is opened by only one key" and all that bullshit - I know that it's ridiculous to hold woman and men to different standard in this regard

Without endorsing any specific views on female vs male promiscuity, I don't see what's so bad about seeing a distinction between them. The fact is, men and women are different from each other, and male and female promiscuity are different phenomena.

xyzzyz• 14 years ago

"Without endorsing any specific views on intelligence of tall vs short people, I don't see what's so bad about seeing a distinction between them. The fact is, tall and short people are different from each other, and their intelligence are different phenomena."

You can substitute many other things in there, and it will make equally bad argument. 80 years ago one could similarly argue about black vs white people, and it wouldn't be considered wrong or racist back then.

It's just less obvious after years of cultural conditioning.

lucisferre• 14 years ago

Well I'm glad you admitted it, because the number of men in your boat is all too obvious to me. Again not to further aggravate your guilt response, but all you have to do is read some of the responses to this (http://blog.sqoot.com/we-can-do-better-an-apology-from-sqoot) to see how many are the male apologists. All out in force trying to assuage their guilt by defending the guilty.

Unfortunately those who can't get over the guilt you feel via this association, are far more likely to defend the same behaviour in others in order to make that feeling go away. This is only going to stop when we stop feeling guilty and choose to act differently.

mhartl20• 14 years ago

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" ... Go to HR and get stuck with his work when they move or can him?

The thing is, we live in a legal environment where she probably could go to HR and get him moved or fired for saying this. And yet, some men are still sexist jerks to women in the workplace. This suggests that all the blog-posting and HN-comment-hand-wringing in the world won't make a bit of difference.

Don't lighten up—accept. When being able to fire a guy for commenting on a woman's dress doesn't even do the job, no amount of complaining will stop the behavior you deplore.

N.B. I expect this comment to be unpopular, which underscores my point. We (a) live in an environment where an essay like the OP gets upvoted and elicits sympathy from a bunch of mostly technical guys, (b) where women endure sexist comments from a bunch of mostly technical guys, and (c) a comment noting the contradiction inherent in (a) and (b) gets downvoted by a bunch of mostly technical guys. The problem is basically unfixable, at least by the suggested means; shooting the messenger won't help.

daenz17• 14 years ago

Amen. Don't let the downvotes bother you, you're seeing 100% clearly and not blinded by the irrationality that seems to be filling this thread.

InclinedPlane8• 14 years ago

It used to be acceptable to use the N-word in the workplace. Casually. With seriousness.

Things change.

Fuck acceptance.

mhartl20• 14 years ago

Acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change.

hythloday14• 14 years ago

And yet you have two people in this thread saying "I see myself in what you complain about and I don't like it". It's interesting that you draw from that "nothing can ever change" (my phrasing).

mhartl20• 14 years ago

You put quotes around the phrase "nothing can ever change", and yet that phrase doesn't appear in the parent comment. I suggest restricting yourself to rebutting arguments I actually made.

Jabbles8• 14 years ago

Don't lighten up—accept

You're asking someone to learn to live with being bullied and to accept discrimination. And through this endorsement of their behaviour you contribute to the problem.

You are a horrible person.

daenz17• 14 years ago

Just out of curiosity, if you went back in time to early America, would you rally some slaves together and tell them all not to put up with the shit from their owners? Would you call them cowards for not all trying to run away? Or would you tell them to "hang in there, things will get better"?

mhartl20• 14 years ago

Counseling someone to accept a situation is not the same as endorsing it. And acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change. Indeed, the OP's decision to leave the tech industry is an implicit acknowledgment of her acceptance. That's a rational decision. Posting a whiny (albeit well-written) essay about it isn't—at least, it's irrational if she wrote it to help solve the problem. If she was simply venting, and attempting to garner attention and sympathy, then the post served its purpose well.

wpietri16• 14 years ago

No. A thousand times no.

Guys make these comments either a) because they are irredeemable assholes, or b) they don't understand the harm they cause.

If they are permanent jerks, firing them can and will help. For everybody else, then discussion is useful.

There is no reason to accept this kind of bullshit, and I refuse to.

mhartl20• 14 years ago

I think you misunderstand. Acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change. When crude behavior persists even in the face of a draconian legal environment, complaining about it or writing frustrated blog posts certainly won't fix it.

Your situation is slightly different. As a CTO, you have the power to prevent this behavior in your sphere of influence. But fixing the tech industry in general is beyond your reach.

You should also be aware that you face the other end of the cannon here. If a woman feels maltreated on your watch, you could be held liable even if you are not culpable. In a small startup, this could be enough to sink the ship. Perversely, this gives you an incentive not to hire women. Indeed, posts such as the OP also provide an incentive not to hire women. There's no defending boorish jerks, but beware of unintended consequences when you propose ways to punish them.

kpanghmc• 14 years ago

My non-programmer friends and family are always bewildered when I tell them that I hope my daughter doesn't grow up to be a programmer. The reason why is because I'm afraid her life would be like the OP's. There is indeed a subtle sexism in our industry. That's why things like yesterday's Sqoot screwup happen so frequently.

Of course, every workplace is different and I'm sure there are plenty of places where women don't have to deal with the bullshit described in this article. However, they are far from the norm. I can see why the OP would want to leave the industry rather than be the person constantly reporting people to HR and lecturing them about proper behavior. It may be the right thing to do, but it's also extremely uncomfortable and just as likely to create an even more hostile working environment than before.

b_emery• 14 years ago

As an employee of the University of California, I'm compelled to take annual sexual harassment training, that is, how to identify situations and behaviors that constitute sexual harassment as it has been legally defined. A lot of what was mentioned in the post and in the comments here would be regarded as reportable offenses, if not prosecutable offenses. People should know the law - this stuff can get you in real trouble. If you're in California, this might apply [pdf]:

http://atyourservice.ucop.edu/employees/policies_employee_la...

If you're not in California, but you're running a business you may find it quite interesting, eg:

Sexual harassment is unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature, when submission to or rejection of this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects a person’s employment or education, unreasonably interferes with a person’s work or educational performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive working or learning environment. ... This policy covers unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature.

mturmon• 14 years ago

All the above is true.

Incidentally, according to interpretations of US and CA law, it is OK to do things like (politely) ask a co-worker out on a date. But, if they say no, you are supposed to get the hint, and if you continue to ask, you're opening yourself up to charges of harassment.

From the training I took, my understanding is that if the low-cut dress comment or comments like it was repeated in the presence of a manager, the manager would have to act in some way. (A manager has a duty to not allow a "hostile work environment".)

Depending on the specifics of who was at the meeting, it does not matter that the person in the dress didn't mind, because it's not just about conduct a specific person finds unwelcome, it's about a hostile work environment.

Some people up-thread are more in the wrong about this than they seem to realize.

robertskmiles• 14 years ago

This is true but pretty unhelpful. The problem is that involving official proceedings or the law almost always looks like overkill. In the aggregate, these events amount to a very serious problem, but individually each one doesn't feel like enough to be worth making it official. Nobody wants to be known as "the person who got someone fired for a comment about a dress", even if they were totally justified. Even normal, decent people are going to be wary of you if you end up with that reputation, deserved or undeserved.

That's the essence of the problem I think. It's a big problem, but it's hard to do anything about it without being seen to be overreacting.

kitsune_3• 14 years ago

I hate those "lighten up" comments. Bullies just love that phrase. Put someone down and when they push back, "ah gee, lighten up, it was just a joke". It's extremely cowardly and disgusting and reminiscent of prepubescent school yard antics. Many women have to put up with such shit on a regular basis.

netmau5• 14 years ago

I like to joke around and have a good time while doing serious work. This isnt some profound optimization technique, just something that makes my day happier and usually that of those around me. However, my general rule of thumb is to never directly engage a female at the workplace outside of a purely professional, subdued necessity. They are too sensitive. While I know I have good intentions and care for their happiness, not everyone has the same level of empathy. So I simply avoid getting grouped into the fratboy category even when I really do want them to just lighten up a bit. I personally find blanket invitations to after-work drinks to be a better environment to get more friendly with the ladies on the team, most will drop their shields a few notches.

jamesaguilar3• 14 years ago

I can tell you from experience that women in the workplace are fine with joking around and having a laugh. The folks in my office have very casual and friendly relationships and we often find ourselves discussing, and joking about, very sensitive topics, the women included.

The issue is not that women are too sensitive to joke with or talk with about these things. The issue is when those jokes are made at the expense of women, targeted at women, or degrading to women. And that's going to be true for most women both in and out of the workplace.

strix_varius8• 14 years ago

So far all the women on my team are fantastic and can give and take in equal measure to any of the guys.

I fear the day we hire a hypersensitive woman and the entire office becomes censored.

desireco422• 14 years ago

I just can't relate to this post. I can't say you are inventing things, but maybe change companies a little, discover something different, don't just complain. As consultant I see quite a lot of different companies and believe I have good idea what can be seen.

I am annoyed by childish behavior of my colleagues, this has nothing to do with me being able to handle it, just I would like to work somewhere where I don't have to deal with it all the time. Also, some female colleagues left field because constant learning was just too much for them and they wanted someplace where they don't have to invest so much of them. Totally reasonable.

Again, can't relate to what you are describing and your description is in no way characteristic for IT, it might be corporate lack of culture in your workplace.

hythloday14• 14 years ago

Sorry to play the HN etiquette bot, but you're being downvoted because you basically replied to a post saying, "don't dismiss my concerns when you don't share them" by dismissing her concerns because you don't share them.

desireco422• 14 years ago

No, I said that as consultant who was in a number of companies, I didn't see behavior she describes. It is not the rule, but exception and not characteristic for IT, which is pretty much what she is implying.

And you are being a jerk :) for downvoting, thank you very much.

paulhauggis2• 14 years ago

Have you ever worked in an office with all women? I did and the sexism and comments are worse because they know they can get away with it.

Our world has become too politically correct. At one of my jobs, they brought all of the developers into a room and said that "something somebody said was offensive and we needed to watch our language".

We're adults, not kids at school..but it sure doesn't feel like it because people seem to want to get another person fired if they are offended in any way. The result is that we can't be honest.

stfu• 14 years ago

That took some scrolling until I found a reasonable comment. Thanks for this.

The other aspect is: Groups will always bond together in one way or another and emphasize their "superiority" over some other group. May it be because of gender, race, political views, intellectual views or just sports teams.

The only difference I noticed from sometimes working with almost exclusive female teams is, that they are smarter in regards to "testing the water", i.e. those who don't share their sense of humor and are unable to cope with less appropriate remarks get isolate pretty fast. But I never understood why people get sensitive over things like these.

In fact I would argue that the more something is a high pressure environment, the less PC the environment becomes.

MartinCron10• 14 years ago

It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group.

What's not too PC for you? Blackface minstrel shows? Cross burning? Swastikas? Effigy burnings?

Many developers find stereotypes of "tech nerds" offensive. If the women in your office showed up with plaid shirts, pocket protectors, slide rules, and mocked your condescending whiny voice, would that not be offensive?

paulhauggis2• 14 years ago

"It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group."

This isn't true. When my co-workers have gotten into political discussions that were completely against my beliefs, I could have easily gotten offended.

But you know what? I don't, because I'm an adult. Some people are going to say things you may not like. Just ignore them.

"It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group."

Women mostly work in Nursing and as teachers. If I were to go into either of these fields, I still wouldn't whine to my superiors about something my co-worker said or how they made me feel bad.

"If the women in your office showed up with plaid shirts, pocket protectors, slide rules, and mocked your condescending whiny voice, would that not be offensive?"

No, I would laugh. You need to be proud of what you are. I'm confident enough to know that a little mockery won't hurt me.

Every company I have ever worked for has been so paranoid about sexual harassment and offending people I seriously doubt it happens as much as people would like us to believe.

"What's not too PC for you? Blackface minstrel shows? Cross burning? Swastikas? Effigy burnings?"

Why is it that in any conversation, the people that claim to be against discrimination bring up things like this?

I don't agree with what you posted, but we should have the freedom to express our opinions. I'm tired of people trying to legislate personal opinions away.

It's opinions like yours that allow special interest groups to get power in this country.

mhartl20• 14 years ago

It's hard to know WTF is going to offend people. The result is a choice between potential opprobrium and insufferable blandness. This is how it happens:

http://android.eonline.com/article.ftl?category=Latest+News&...

I pretty sure DeNiro didn't burn any crosses.

DanielBMarkham• 14 years ago

I applaud the author for sharing her feelings. I also note that she does not speak for all women. All we can do is share our own experiences.

I've been through many of these discussions: sexism, racism, ageism, and so on. After receiving many a rhetorical punch in the nose, I have a simple rule: I don't do it, I don't approve of it being done, if I am in management I stop it. I also don't let people yank me around by the emotional heartstrings. I reserve moral outrage for things like millions of people starving around the world, or slavery, or hundreds of millions dying of disease. Others are certainly capable of being moved by whatever they desire, but I find more harm being done by actual people dying than by the compound personality flaws of millions of my fellow citizens.

I don't mean that to be insensitive. Like I said, I am in complete agreement that this goes on and it must stop. Immediately. I'm just saying from prior experience I find that discussions like this never tend to go anywhere productive.

wpietri16• 14 years ago

I think these kinds of discussions are immensely productive even when they don't appear to go anywhere.

For a lot of people, these things are subtle and hard to process. It takes time and repetition for them to understand and acknowledge the problem, let alone become part of the solution.

Sexism is taking generations to sort out, so it's unsurprising that we can't see a difference in the course of a single discussion. But I believe that without discussion, we'll see no progress at all.

sangfroid• 14 years ago

I'm one of the women who don't share her feelings. Maybe it's the word sexism that I have a problem with.

I'm not a programmer and I don't know the specific environment that she described, but I'm a female motorcyclist and I've worked in lots of kitchens and a couple in molecular biology labs. I know the behavior and I've dealt with it. Men behave in curious ways when there's a low female/male ratio, but in my experience, half of it comes out of awkwardness or plain old stupidity on the other side. Some of the more honest comments on this thread testify to that.

The other half is intended to belittle. But seriously, this isn't just at work. This is walking down the street in the city. This is buying something in the store. This is sitting on the bus. And as much as it sucks, getting offended doesn't help.

If this sounds like a long winded "lighten up," please think of it more as a friendly "toughen up." It's the only way to signal the change that you want.

outworlder2• 14 years ago

And when the female/male ratio is too high, there are issues too, and not just at work. It can be uncomfortable/awkward for many.

I don't want to generalize, but in my country/city/region/circle of friends/etc, I've found that, for instance, girls tend to talk about their sexual experiences in every detail imaginable, down to comments about their partners. Any attempt to do something to that level of detail among guys would likely be met with a "Whoa dude! Too much information!"

And that's just an example. Not sure if you can relate. In any case, the point is that I think that there will be issues unless the environment is balanced or 100% of the same sex.

marvin• 14 years ago

As an armchair behavorial therapist, I think this is the only attitude that will end up having a positive benefit (the author also does the right thing by speaking up). There is no use in playing victim; when someone does something to you that you don't want, you have to push back.

For reasons cultural or otherwise, men have a tendency to attempt to subtly dominate people they perceive as weaker. To some people, this seems almost like an instinct, and it's really fascinating how just subtly pushing back or ignoring it seems to stop people from doing it with you.

I don't know a lot about how this manifests itself towards women, but if you are a guy, the best solution is to just push back and perhaps actively study and notice the tricks guys use to achieve social dominance. As a formerly shy guy who was often at the receiving end of this kind of behavior, I think that a lot of these gender problems would even out if all women managed to subtly assert themselves a bit more. It would surprise me greatly if women were exempt from this stereotypical male behavior.

foxit• 14 years ago

They may not go anywhere productive in your eyes, which I would imagine means they do not reach a definitive and world-changing conclusion in the course of the thread, but they do increase awareness, particularly in male-dominated arenas like this. Increasing awareness is probably the most important thing that can be done. See klausa's post.

It's also the case that fighting injustice and increasing awareness of societal boulders that need to be broken down might very well lead to larger change that results in less actual dying in the world. For instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_women_of_Asia http://www.economist.com/node/15636231

kabuks2• 14 years ago

I respectfully disagree.

It was precisely from countless discussions like this that I began to see my sexism. Through patient, non-judgmental, and intelligent discourse, I started to see how I was trained by our society to see women differently, and how my often well-intentioned choices were hurting the people I care about.

I am really really grateful for discussions like this. Messy? Yes. Useless? Hell on.

mhartl20• 14 years ago

It appears that virtually all comments expressing even mild criticism of the OP are being downvoted with a vengeance. Groupthink is alive and well here on HN. If you want to know what a member of the Thought Police looks like, find a mirror.

MartinCron10• 14 years ago

Sure, it could be group-think and thought police, or it could be reasonable people finding a consensus.

In media studies there's the idea of the circle of consensus (everyone agrees with the notion that slavery and rape and child abuse are bad) and outside of that is the area of legitimate controversy. ("Does Keynesian economics actually work?" "should states mandate that people wear motorcycle helmets?" whatever). Outside of that is the lunatic fringe ("Show me the birth certificate!" or "Dick Cheney was a Hitler Youth")

It seems that in this community, the statement "yeah, maybe these chicks really should just lighten up" is outside the area of legitimate controversy. As it should be.

mhartl20• 14 years ago

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" ... [Should I] go to HR and get stuck with his work when they move or can him?

Do you think that potentially firing someone for making such a comment is part of a reasonable consensus? Or is it something about which reasonable people can disagree?

cookiecaper• 14 years ago

Indeed. This thread possessed me to register "abovethecirclejerk.com", which I one day hope to use in a meaningful way.

mtrimpe9• 14 years ago

Being an ex-queer (bi ;) I've had to put up with my fair share of subtle jabs and general discomfort with my presence. After a long time I figured out that the only thing that worked for me was to be more dominant than 'them.'

The thing is, women (and queers) are fucking powerful, they're just powerful in a different way. Ironically, but not unsurprisingly, women are taught not to use this power as it's 'inappropriate.'

You see, men don't have a clue as to how group dynamics work. Women do and have been trained in this from childhood on as it is their 'arena' just as much as the sports field is ours.

When we enter the workforce however, suddenly 'fair' means fighting like it happens on the sports field, 'fair' means fighting the boys' fight.

In the workplace, open competitiveness and overt displays of hierarchical dominance (boy's game) are perfectly acceptable, but figuring out the motives of your enemy's friends, observing when he breaks them and subtly informing those friends about that in order to weaken his support base (girl's game) is considered 'nasty.'

When I finally accepted that this was bullshit, everything turned around for me.

Whenever someone did something like this to me, over the next few days several of his allies would get a quick visit from me with some nice small-talk and a little one-liner thrown in about how X hurt me by doing Y. Within days X would find himself somewhat more alienated, perhaps reprimanded slightly by one of his peers about Y, left to wonder what he did wrong.

Over time it was as if a subconscious message spread across the workfloor: "You'd better respect me. If you don't your life will become a lot harder and you'll have no idea how the fuck it happened."

Now for everyone who reads this and thinks my description of this is disgusting, please understand that I'm merely able to describe it this way as I've had the fairly unique perspective of having been a part of both 'worlds.' From a woman's perspective an in-depth analysis of mens' quest for dominance would sound equally messed up.

Just like very few men understand a woman's world, very few women understand a man's world.

TL;DR; Men and women establish hierarchies in different ways. Women have been taught their way is inappropriate in business. They should do it anyhow.

P.S. Funnily enough, after I started dating a girl and 'became straight,' the women on the floor suddenly started calling me out on this behavior and nudged me back into the 'male hierarchy.'

spindritf• 14 years ago

> men don't have a clue as to how group dynamics work

Do you think that those thousands upon thousands of (male) political leaders who climbed to the very tops of their social hierarchies -- from Crassus to Clinton, over thousands of years -- got there by pure luck without understanding how group dynamics work? How to make and break alliances? How to inform on their competitors?

Open competitiveness and overt dominance won out in our culture because they worked, not because alternatives were unavailable to men. Those traits allow to create stable organizations which went on and conquered the world, often literally. There's nothing stopping men from mastering intrigue, it's just very destructive, much more so than competitiveness and dominance, even fistfights will damage the group less than constant shifting and mind games.

mtrimpe9• 14 years ago

I'm not just talking about intrigue; I'm trying to describe a different model of the world which operates on a different kind of duality.

In that model intrigue is indeed the punishment, but care and support is the reward.

This might be constrained to just my experience in the gay community and my extrapolation to the female population might be incorrect.

All I know is that I eventually became strongly aware of a delicate and ever changing network of social ties every non-straight-male I knew was participating in and acutely aware of.

And yes, it's probably a very essential component of the skillset political leaders need to master to rise to the top. I'd argue however that it only becomes a necessity to master at the top, whereas for most queers I know it's present regardless of political ambitions.

scott_w• 14 years ago

I disagree that the methods you describe are confined to women. I've seen enough men do similar things.

I'd say the reason people find it "dirty" is the same reason dirty players get angry when they're fouled - they can't take what they dish out.

astine2• 14 years ago

"In the workplace, open competitiveness and overt displays of hierarchical dominance (boy's game) are perfectly acceptable, but figuring out the motives of your enemy's friends, observing when he breaks them and subtly informing those friends about that in order to weaken his support base (girl's game) is considered 'nasty.'"

It is nasty. It's called passive-aggressiveness and it undermines honest communication in the workplace. It will make people unwilling to treat with you honestly. The fact that you think this form of behavior is more natural to women than men is actually quite sexist.

Cushman9• 14 years ago

I iPad-downvoted you, sorry-- I actually agree 100%. It's important to keep in mind in general that even members of oppressed classes can be discriminatory, and it's no less of a problem.

mtrimpe9• 14 years ago

Argh, I knew I shouldn't have used a broad description of male behavior and narrow one of the female.

The male equivalent of what I described here would be when two managers shouting against each other in ever stronger terms that they are more important and have more authority than the other until one backs down.

Equally destructive I believe, but something you'd never see a woman engage in.

jQueryIsAwesome• 14 years ago

> The fact that you think this form of behavior is more natural to women than men is actually quite sexist.

All gender generalizations are sexist? That doesn't make sense; there are generalizations that are true even if that population doesn't like those generalizations (ie: women are physically less capable than men) and in some situations it may be important to have them in mind.

What could be sexist is to speak out those generalizations in an environment where it could blur the qualities that are actually needed for the context (in this case her performance as a programmer) but not in places such as an open forum like this comment section.

yycom• 14 years ago

No, it's very much active aggression, only covert. See also "politics".

philwelch2• 14 years ago

To whatever extent the "girl's game" is such, it's largely because for centuries, female social hierarchies consisted of social groups of gossiping housewives and male social hierarchies consisted of business and politics--though the two certainly intersected when the wives of businessmen and politicians talked. (One notable intersection happened during the Andrew Jackson administration and ultimately led to the end of John Calhoun's vice presidency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petticoat_affair)

Analogously speaking--just because whites held social power over blacks by virtue of better education doesn't somehow mean education itself is an artifact of white supremacy, it means that lack of education is an artifact of oppression. Likewise, having to passive-aggressively gossip in the background isn't some kind of feminine power, it's an artifact of oppression against women preventing them from speaking and acting more openly. If women are going to be peers and equals to men in a professional workplace, they should act like it.

mtrimpe9• 14 years ago

Thanks for your very well thought out reply. To a certain degree what you are saying is very much true.

What you are forgetting however is that if you go further back in time men were hunters and women were gatherers. Women stayed around the camp and were free to chat and men went off to hunt and had to be silent.

I'm trying to make the point that part of this is probably genetically/hormonally engrained into the female psyche (it's probably what you have tweak to 'fix' people like me) and that part of what is holding women back in the workplace, especially in tech as compared to e.g. fashion, is that they are asked to leave this part of them behind.

'If women are going to be peers and equals to men in a professional workplace, they should act like it.'

Equals in what way?

kitsune_3• 14 years ago

As if male businessmen and politicians were not skilled at the game of intrigue and gossip. Give me a break.

dancesdrunk• 14 years ago

I have to disagree. I've had to manage a team of around 40 people who compete nationally (not tech per se, but I believe the same applies in a work place), and it only takes one person with the behaviour you describe to completely wreck how everyone operates and gets along.

We went from a tight knit, supportive group to being watchful of what we say, wondering who's out to get us and generally having to "watch our backs". Loyalties were split, motives were changed and within a matter of weeks it was an incredibly poisonous atmosphere.

If you want to get ahead - be better than those you're competing against. Don't try to undermine them, it does get noticed and unfortunately - for a small personal gain you're causing a hell lot more damage without even realising.

kevinalexbrown• 14 years ago

As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers').

This, more than the jokes and comments, is the meat of the problem. Inappropriate jokes can be much more easily addressed as soon as they happen - if you're in a meeting and your boss asks you to 'please pull up your blouse because your wonderful breasts are distracting everyone' you can much more easily address it right then and there.

But if your boss asks you to take notes, the first couple of times it happens, it could just as well be random (though it isn't, really). It is much harder to say 'no, not taking notes, you only want me to do that because I'm a woman' even when it's true. What's worse is that even when you do notice a pattern, it's harder to address than a rude remark. It's (a) hard to prove it was because of your sex as opposed to some other aspect of your personality ('maybe he thinks you're just good at organizing potlucks, sheesh' - 'you took notes that first time so well!') and (b) behavior is much harder to correct when you have to point out things that happened in the past. 'I take notes 50% of the time, in a group of 5' just doesn't seem to have the same effect on humans, especially in a society where intent is often judged above effect.

I'm not a woman, but this is what it seems to me, from what I've observed.

edit: I can't find the study I was looking for, but they had a group of people evaluate two sets of identical resumes, with female and male names, for 'competence' and 'likeability'. For males, competence was correlated with likeability, but for females it was anticorrelated, even though the resumes were identical. Less people will think you an 'ice queen' if you call out an inappropriate remark, but countering the above form of sexism seems far more difficult to do while preserving 'likeability' -- 'what's the big deal, I just asked her to take notes!' If anyone else knows where the study is, I would be grateful.

mechanical_fish4• 14 years ago

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes.

Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

enginous• 14 years ago

That's true, and an even more powerful response of a man in this position is to deal with the problem less passively by (a) pointing out the trend without making a big deal, (b) suggesting that the team rotate more often, (c) proceeding to lead by example by taking notes.

This may be even too subtle a message for a problem as severe as this one, but it at least signals that not everyone within the team will tolerate this behavior, without claims of sexism backed by little evidence.

ComputerGuru• 14 years ago

As a man, I've handled this by being the one to turn it into an obvious sexist thing by making a joke aloud "yeah, Sarah, boss says it's your turn to take notes again because, you know, you're the only girl at the table :P. Ha ha ha ha."

Everyone laughs, boss realizes what he's doing, Sarah is off the hook.

gurkendoktor3• 14 years ago

> Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever.

That is only the second thing that came to my mind.

The other "danger" is being the only guy to act like that, then looking like a desperate "white knight" to the brogrammer crowd. Which sucks, because these exist and can be terribly creepy, and that gets you onto the women's side of the sexism.

Not that it is a valid reason, of course.

__abc• 14 years ago

I don't understand the "as a man" part. That's further propagating the problem.

I'd rather we point out "sexist behavior" to help make it stop vs introduce an even more subtler sexist behavior

In your senario: You, as a man, aware that she as a women, can get treated differently, so you will then treat her differently based on that.

You see, you are still treating her differently, where ultimately, no one treats her differently.

Reminds me of this quote from Morgan Freeman in an interview

Wallace: Black History Month you find...

Freeman: Ridiculous.

Wallace: Why?

Freeman: You're going to relegate my history to a month?

Wallace: Oh, come on...

Freeman: What do you do with yours? Which month is White History Month?

Wallace: Well...

Freeman: Come on, tell me.

Wallace: I'm Jewish.

Freeman: OK. Which month is Jewish History Month?

Wallace: There isn't one.

Freeman: Oh. Oh. Why not? Do you want one?

Wallace: No. No.

Freeman: Alright. I don't either. I don't want a Black History Month. Black history is American history.

Wallace: How are we going to get rid of racism...?

Freeman: Stop talking about it. I'm going to stop calling you a white man. And I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man. I know you as Mike Wallace. You know me as Morgan Freeman.

veb• 14 years ago

> As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers').

Had a new project manager/analyst join a few months ago, and he bakes a different cake for us each week. it's awesome. :)

yelsgib13• 14 years ago

In my mind, an important point here is that NO ONE should be asked to put together a pot luck. Why does anyone think this kind of thing is appropriate in the workplace? It makes me want to vomit when workplace boss becomes social boss. If anyone ever told me to put together a pot luck my immediate response would be "go fuck yourself."

pavel_lishin• 14 years ago

If you worked with me, I would tell the entire office that everyone is welcome to the 24-pack of beer I brought from home ... except you.

sukuriant3• 14 years ago

You're getting quite a bit of flak for this. You got a sucky boss? I rather like my co-workers, and potlucks are just one method of team-building/friendship making that can be had at work. No, work buddies should never be your only friends, but to have a pleasant time around co-workers, and to have team-building events such as those? There's nothing wrong with that; and, I would argue it helps to create a condusive and lower-friction environment.

prawn• 14 years ago

For anyone else who had no idea what a "pot luck" was - it's basically a "bring-a-plate" event ("Odds on savoury, evens on dessert" at a residential street party).

michaelkscott• 14 years ago

Though my response won't be as forward as yours, I couldn't agree more.

stephengillie• 14 years ago

I'm not a professional chef, I'm a sysadmin. Cooking isn't part of my job description.

I don't want to be forced to eat food prepared by people who don't have food handlers' cards, and I don't want my coworkers to feel hurt because I don't want to eat what they cooked and left in their car.

Want to improve morale and do teambuilding? Get a cater, or go somewhere for lunch.

hef198983• 14 years ago

Stupid question, but what is a "pot luck"?

Edit: Question answered! The ability to read actually is an advantage! ;-)

ubercore• 14 years ago

I agree. The "asked to put together" is the offensive part. I consider myself lucky to work with people that I do want to hang out with, and sometimes we collectively decide to plan a social event together, but having it come top-down really riles me up.

tripzilch3• 14 years ago

I wondered about the pot luck thing, isn't the point of a pot luck that everyone brings something to eat for everyone? If she'd be the only one that had to bring something, it wouldn't be a pot luck any more, right?

At least, that's what I understand pot luck to mean? I like them a lot btw, very American thing, so we don't do it often enough here, but my hummus is always appreciated ;-)

lolilives2• 14 years ago

Not sure, but this might be the study you were referring to: http://advance.cornell.edu/documents/ImpactofGender.pdf

blatherard• 14 years ago

I'd be inclined to give the author the benefit of the doubt, and take serious the problem she's chosen to flag. She's saying that the attitude of "lighten up" is a problem in and of itself. To say that the "meat of the problem" is something else is really kind of like saying "lighten up."

chanon2• 14 years ago

This. Why must we re-analyze her problem and say it is something else when she has already clearly stated what it is and how she feels.

Seeing the grandparent as the top voted comment is like HN saying 'hey, we know better, your problem is actually this'.

Which isn't much different from saying 'lighten up' - both amount to dismissing her feelings.

ckpwong6• 14 years ago

The notetaking situation as you describe it (not necessarily the way Katie was treated) can probably be averted by politely declining, such as, "Can someone else take notes this time? I like to put more focus on this particular discussion." If it's happening even more frequently than, say, 50%, then perhaps something along the line of suggesting everyone taking turns (if it's a regular meeting).

At my previous workplace, it's usually the host who sends out meeting notes or action items if needed. Otherwise, the task falls into the hands of the project manager, if one is present in the meeting.

ericb2• 14 years ago

Yes, that might keep you from having to take notes, but most fools don't respond to subtlety.

The problem is being viewed as nothing more than a note-taker, not the actual note-taking work.

yelsgib13• 14 years ago

I find posts like this extremely frustrating.

Yes, I feel sorry for this woman.

However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society.

The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working in a job where they can just do what they like - program - and a woman comes along with all those pheremones and everything. And yes he acts awkward and crazy because holy shit there is a WOMAN who does what he does.

I fucking hate all of this talk about "manchildren" and "brogrammers" and whatever else. Stop essentializing the problem. Stop the man hate. Fucking hell.

Do you really think the man who said:

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"

is a happy, mentally-healthy, well-adjusted human being? Hmmm? Where's the compassion for him?

Why is our reaction to superficial wrongdoing so fucking immediate and moralistic? As if he's not a person with his own problems?

I'm at a loss for words, this whole clusterfuck makes me so angry.

InclinedPlane8• 14 years ago

Being a victim is no excuse to victimize others.

yelsgib13• 14 years ago

There is no "nexus" of victimhood. I'm saying that we're hyper-focusing on one particular form of suffering.

flatline• 14 years ago

I agree that the guy is probably suffering from his own insecurities, but the bottom line is that he allowed his issues to place him in a situation of antagonizing a co-worker, probably without any repercussions, which speaks to a general climate of discrimination against women in the workplace. Still, some of your other points are interesting and I feel are valid in a larger context. Zen monasteries in Japan were segregated - women were a minority anyway, probably to a very large extent, but there were women monks, and they were generally not allowed much interaction with the male monks. All discipline among the males fell apart when a woman was in their presence, as the culture really gave them no background for normal interactions between the sexes. The head monks chose to sidestep the problem -- what could they possibly do to address the ills of the society at large?

yelsgib13• 14 years ago

My point is that there is no "bottom line."

Your analogy to a Zen monastery is a good one. For a lot of men (myself included), programming/chess/mathematics/etc. is an ESCAPE from women. I feel like what has happened in the past 10 years (note I'm not saying this is "wrong" - just that it's what happened) is that these monasteries have been invaded by women and that men have been acting very awkwardly.

Here's the real issue, I think - these men are acting AWKWARDLY. They are dealing with their emotions poorly. They are not good at dealing with their emotions, especially towards women. But when did they ever say that they were? Did we stop to think whether this is the reason that they went into a profession which (for a long time) was almost 100% male? To not have to deal with women and their emotions towards women? Do you think that a man who has trouble interacting with women in a relaxed social setting will be able to deal with them well in a professional setting?

The real pain for me is that this awkwardness is being recast as evil, sexism, etc. There's a lot of hate directed towards it, whereas what it needs (paradoxically) is love.

mattdeboard• 14 years ago

What. Are you... are you serious? I hope to god there's a rational point that you're trying to make, you're just making it very, very badly because you're so angry at the "man hate."

j_baker3• 14 years ago

What makes you think Jeffrey Dahmer was a happy, mentally-healthy, well-adjusted human being? Where's the compassion for him?

dmor• 14 years ago

A serial killer

yelsgib13• 14 years ago

I have great compassion for Jeffrey Dahmer.

And do you realize that you just compared making an awkward joke to killing loads of people?

strangetimes• 14 years ago

I have a lot of compassion for him.

mindstab3• 14 years ago

Too bad.

Programing or any place in the world isn't some special place for poorly socialized men to hang out and ... what... hide? You know what would be good? Learning social rules and improving. Them maybe his life wouldn't suck and he could get a date. And you know what would help that? Being forced into social situations with women and being slapped when he steps out of line.

If you have a puppy and it pees on the floor, you don't feel sorry for it and lock it in the house so it can pee on the floor forever, you train it not to.

If we "just give up" on these men and leave them alone they will be miserable forever. If they are forced to learn (at a later age, you know what, all the rest of us learned this a long time ago) they maybe they can get on with their lives and not be miserable.

yelsgib13• 14 years ago

Yeah, wouldn't it be great if everyone was just totally psychologically normal? I bet everyone can just fix everything that's wrong with themselves. Everyone has a surplus of love in their life available to help them overcome their problems.

Men are not puppies, asshole.

wpietri16• 14 years ago

Sure, he has problems. We all have problems. But when you make your problems somebody else's problems, you're still an asshole.

It would be great if one of his colleagues would pull him aside, explain some things to him with a LART, and suggest that he get a therapist and an Ok Cupid account. But that's not obligatory, and is definitely not the problem of the person to whom he's being an ass.

theorique3• 14 years ago

I fucking hate all of this talk about "manchildren" and "brogrammers" and whatever else. Stop essentializing the problem. Stop the man hate. Fucking hell.

If you're experiencing this pushback from women in the profession as 'man hate' that's certainly your right. I view it more as listening to a professional colleague telling a story from her perspective. I'm not experiencing it as hate, more as hearing from a woman 'this is my perspective'.

Do you really think the man who said: "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" is a happy, mentally-healthy, well-adjusted human being? Hmmm? Where's the compassion for him?

Perhaps he's a victim too - none of us know the full story and we can speculate until we're blue in the face. But wouldn't you agree that his actions are highly unprofessional, creepy, and personally discouraging to one particular woman, and part of a broader pattern of discouragement toward women in technology overall?

I'm at a loss for words, this whole clusterfuck makes me so angry.

So what do you recommend to fix the problem? Where will you direct all that energy that your anger has activated?

Strallus• 14 years ago

Maybe the problem can't be fixed. As long as techies remain predominately male, this problem will persist.

And why are they predominately male? Either- A: Men, for some unknown reason, like programming better. B: The sexist environment drives women away.

Whichever one it is, the problem will not resolve itself. For A, as long as men like it better, and there are more of them, women will be seen as outsiders. For B, as long there are more men, some of whom are sexist, the women will be driven away and the ratio of m/f will stay the same.

yelsgib13• 14 years ago

Good questions!

Sure, the guy's actions are unprofessional (though I hate the term), and discouraging. I wouldn't say creepy. I really hate the term "creepy" because probably (and yeah, here I'm speculating) the guy has been called a creep his whole life. Probably he's even creepy. But shouldn't we feel sorry for such a person?

(United States) society has a really bad habit of locating blame on male citizens and not looking further for causes of their behavior. There are lots of examples of this, but a really blatant one is the current incarceration rate. We like to say "this person acted badly and they suck - I'm sure they have reasons - but they suck!" and stop the conversation there.

Like I said, I'm really sad that one of the effects of this big pile of sad men is that women are discouraged. But I'm also sad that they're sad - and that they engage in behaviors which make them more sad. For instance: unhealthy eating patterns, drug/alcohol abuse, gaming addictions, porn addictions, etc. I'm also sad that they're mean to other men - e.g. flamewars. I'm sad about a whole big bucket of things.

---

You're asking whether I'd classify his actions in a particular way (unprofessional, creepy, discouraging) and, for the most part, I would. The question (as you point out) is where to go from here? What do I do with all this anger?

One thing I'd like to do is fight back against the conditions that make the world shit for nerdy teenage boys. I'll take myself as a prototype here, but as a nerdy teenage boy:

1. Other teenage boys are mean to you 2. Other teenage girls are mean to you 3. Your teachers more or less hate you for being better than them at the subjects they teach 4. Your parents think of you as a failure because you're not dating/doing normal things 5. Society at large is disgusted with you (media portrays you as a creepy pervert, etc.)

I mean, let's keep things in perspective, here. This woman had a shitty run of things, but was she suffering? Really? I (and a lot of people I know) had to put up with 100x more intolerance and aggression on a daily basis from the time I was 10 until I was 18. From both genders. I was bullied. I was laughed at. I was scorned by family and teachers. Sorry if we came out a little malformed.

Hell, I'm not even bad at interacting with women, since my skin normalized and I had the luck of working at a big retail store where I had to interact with them a lot. I had girlfriends and such and now I'm married. Shit has more or less fixed itself, but it's not really my fault as such.

Yeah, so what to do? Let's create art which actively portrays the sex-starved teenage nerd boy as heroic, in his own way? Let's give him some love, as a society? Let's extol his virtues, maybe once? What support is given to these people, really?

The sick thing is that for every such nerdy guy I know who became successful (mostly the smart ones, and mostly as programmers) I know 5 who were pretty much crushed by the stress of all this and have never really recovered.

tomkarlo2• 14 years ago

Thanks for perpetuating stereotypes in the name of excusing unacceptable behavior. Many of these same comments could probably also be applied to stock traders and construction workers as well.

While it's unfortunate that some people fail to develop appropriately and learn to interact in an appropriately professional manner in the workplace, I don't know if that means folks have to feel sorry for them any more than if they failed to learn the appropriate technical skills to do their job. Interacting appropriately with the opposite sex and other ethnicities, etc., is a reasonable expectation of someone who wants to work in a modern workplace (and I don't limit that to the office or technology jobs.)

yelsgib13• 14 years ago

I think of stock brokers/financial workers as particularly miserable people - you can be rich AND miserable! I don't know any construction workers, but it really doesn't seem like a happy job.

It's not about excusing behavior, it's about talking about the reasons behind that behavior so that those reasons can be addressed properly. The proper way to address issues whose source is pain and suffering is compassion. Not "feeling sorry for" a person, but understanding that they too are suffering and including that understanding in your analysis of the situation. The point that I find very frustrating in all of this is that the suffering which causes "inexcusable behavior" is not being talked about. We're not talking about -why- men act in this way, except in flippant ways - calling them "manchildren," etc.

mithaler• 14 years ago

I have sympathy for the outcast with poor social skills because of mistreatment by society.

But such an outcast ceases to be sympathetic the instant s/he makes someone else's life unpleasant. This isn't about "man hate"; this is about someone who made an offensive comment that made someone else uncomfortable. That's not OK, and we reasonably expect better socialization in our peers than this. If the person who made this remark is not a "happy, mentally-healthy, well-adjusted human being", then no matter how much compassion his condition might reasonably engender, he should get help.

Furthermore, by equating a lack of compassion for a man who is "not healthy" with "man hate", you implicitly claim that "men are naturally unhealthy". To me, this comes across as a greater denigration of men than any harsh reaction leveled at the oppressor.

richardk3• 14 years ago

It's bizarre, I'm sure if I made any of those comments to women at university I would quickly become pretty unpopular.

So is this just a problem of the previous generation or a problem specific to the workplace?

I really do feel for the author, I can't imagine how awful it must be to put up with that kind of thing everyday.

jberryman2• 14 years ago

Kind of meta, but I've noticed two things from this thread

1) I think I always imagine everyone here as a man, unless they identify themselves otherwise or I notice their username suggests they're female, and

2) reading the female voices here really gave me the sense of HN as a much richer, more interesting community

maco3• 14 years ago

I do #1 backwards because LinuxChix was my introduction to the world of online tech communities.

mikecane• 14 years ago

The guy sees the "one joke." He doesn't see that to her it's the billionth-and-one "joke."

Bukowski put it best: "The Shoelace" http://allisonlanda.blogspot.com/2009/02/bukowski-shoelace.h...

Attention my fellow men: Just STFU unless you are reading stupid jokes from a bad sitcom script before a camera for TV.

Swizec2• 14 years ago

Honest question: Why is it so bad when guys treat gals like they're just one of the guys?

Guys give each other small disparaging jabs all the time, be it the workplace or a party between friends, it's what we do to fit in; it's how our social groups work and what keeps them together.

I've never been female, so I don't know what it looks like from their perspective, but to me telling a lass to go back to the kitchen is on the same level as telling a guy he should stick to computers because he sure as hell sucks at talking to girls.

chromatic• 14 years ago

... it's what we do to fit in...

If you quite obviously don't share some obvious and dominant characteristic of a group, repeated reminders that You. Don't. Fit. In. are frustrating and demotivating, at best.

wpietri16• 14 years ago

Treating them like one of the guys can be fine. But if you're calling attention to their tits (as in the "low-cut dress" comment in the article), then you're definitely not treating them like one of the guys.

xibernetik• 14 years ago

It's not the same level at all. Telling a guy to stick to computers because he sucks at talking to girls in a technical industry is like telling a woman to go back to the kitchen when she's a chef.

Telling a guy to stick to computers because he sucks at talking to girls when his job is to run and promote a female-targeted wedding convention is a little closer to the mark.

As a female, getting told "stick to computers, you suck at flirting" when you're technically-inclined is a lot less offensive than "go back to the kitchen" -- not to mention that the first is a jab related to observation of an individual (presumably there isn't a stereotype that all men suck at talking to women) rather than a jab related to your chromosomes. It's exacerbated by the fact it's highlighting "something here doesn't belong with the others~...".

briancurtin2• 14 years ago

> go back to the kitchen is on the same level as telling a guy he should stick to computers because he sure as hell sucks at talking to girls

Why is "go back to the kitchen" on the same level? My girlfriend can't cook and wants nothing to do with it, let alone the fact that the phrase has been a stereotype actively used to demean the gender for a very long time.

Ribbing someone by telling them to stick with something they're actually active in and good at is really on the same level as a gender-wide stereotype?

theorique3• 14 years ago

I think it's a fine thing - I have close personal friends (of both sexes - whom I jab verbally all the time. We make aggressive jokes with each other, insult each other mercilessly, and it's all in fun. Is this OK? Sure - because we are all friends, we all love each other, we know each other well, and we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that no harm is meant by anything that we say.

What's the difference between this and the situation in the OP? The workplace factor is one thing, but the friends factor is a much bigger deal.

Clearly, the people slinging the barbs simply aren't close enough friends to have that kind of rapport with her (if they were, she'd be laughing about her friends being hilariously inappropriate, rather than citing examples of workplace harassment). The guys at work from these examples also seem to be socially clued-out enough that they may not even be aware that what they are doing is unwanted.

wvenable• 14 years ago

> Guys give each other small disparaging jabs all the time

You do that enough times to someone who isn't your friend and that's bullying.

sophacles5• 14 years ago

I answered this on the blog comment you made too, hopefully it will get readership in both places:

This is not a bad question. I would like to make several points here, and hope a woman commenter chimes in with first-hand perspective too.

First of all, the "guys joking and jabbing each other" thing is true. But it really isn't that simple of a social interaction. At the early "getting to know each other" stages, the punches are pulled a LOT, and the pairwise bits of acceptable jokes are slowly teased out. Each member of the group must be felt out for OK and Bad joke topics etc. Think about every male bonding comedy (or drama with comic relief) you've ever seen. The new guy is paling around with the group, and suddenly he makes fun of the dog, or the tattoo or someone's mom, suddenly the whole group is quiet and serious, and "oh you just don't go there, never make fun of gary's poodle". There are rules and boundaries to it, even in "everything goes" atmospheres. (exceptions being douche-fests like Jersey Shore... and look how those turn out)

Second, there is a lot of difference commonly found between the jokes towards majority "one of the guys" and women or minority "one of the guys". Sure, its funny for a core group member to yet again make a joke about how Isaac can't be trusted because he's a mexican thief, if a new person said that, s/he would be reamed for making that comment -- the trust of "just a joke" is an earned one. Same goes for "katie is just looking for a guy with that top" jokes. And sometimes, they would never ever be allowed, because the person joking is NOT cool with it, and that is OK. addition from original comment: And the only way the jokes are ever ok, is if the target owns that joke as a funny, not hurtful statement. Some people see humor in situations where they are fitting some mockable stereotype, or where they are see themselves in such contrast with the stereotype (and know the mocker also sees this and doesn't buy the stereotype anyway). If the target doesn't see it as humorous, it stops being a bonding jab, and starts being hurtful

Third, the contents of the jokes should mostly be neutral. I'm pretty sure Katie would be ok if you poked about the time she brought the server down. But, if you follow it with "thats why girls should stay off servers" it changes it, because you would never poke al with "thats why boys should not code". Again, it is the subtlety of bringing the extra factor into play that wouldn't otherwise be noted in "one of the guys" (e.g. gender, race, sexuality etc). I don't know katie, but my workplace jokes follow this pattern

IsaacSchlueter• 14 years ago

    its funny for a core group member to yet again make a
    joke about how Isaac can't be trusted because he's a
    mexican thief

Over the line, dude. Not cool.

lifeisstillgood• 14 years ago

Will Schumpter win out here?

Presumably in a perfect labour market competant women will leave companies like this and go work for the non sexist competition

I believe that will be true for companies that do not embrace for example lean product discovery or software as transformative. But I just don't think the labour Market is really perfect enough to make this kind of difference

but even so, start looking at jobsites. You won't change them, and if you leave for good reasons, good employers will understand.

drostie5• 14 years ago

Cass R. Sunstein in Free Markets and Social Justice offers a chapter with an interesting perspective called "Why Markets Don't Stop Discrimination." The book is actually one of the more readable economics works I've seen, and the author gives a more in-depth account of why competitive markets would normally be believed to work the way you're saying you expect them to work.

The basic idea is that even if you operate in a competitive market, your customers and associates may not: and due to this, competitive markets can sometimes only float the ball to some socially-appropriate level. So, let's talk about someone who stops doing business with you because they know your programmers are female and they hold some subconscious belief that female code is of lower quality. (I mean, if you called them on it they would say "no, of course not!" but somewhere deep inside they'd prefer the familiar and they discriminate institutionally rather than individually.) Now your incentives to discriminate are bound up in a complex: that complex contains their tastes, and what they're willing to pay to get a product which tastes right to them. If they're in a very competitive market they might not be able to afford any overhead, but if they're a personal user, or they are turning a profit, they get to choose based on their tastes alone and then your financial incentive is to also institutionally discriminate. The whole point is that discrimination might be "economically rational" while nondiscrimination might be "social justice" and therefore they can come at odds -- which is more or less the topic of the book.

I found it an interesting idea.

Alex3917• 14 years ago

No, because of the marriage monopsony (among other reasons). Because most women choose to live where their husbands live, they will essentially never be able to command the same wages or working conditions as men (under the current system) because the employers have significantly more power than what a competitive market would otherwise dictate.

rokhayakebe3• 14 years ago

To every person going through a similar situation, I apologize on behalf of Men, and I guarantee you not all of us are like such.

natep11• 14 years ago

If only it were possible to apologize for someone else. However, that is not the case, as you are not the ultimate cause of their actions (their own brains are), so you can only apologize for what you do.

monochromatic4• 14 years ago

You do not speak for me.

rokhayakebe3• 14 years ago

I apologize for thinking we share the same values.

javascriptlol16• 14 years ago

The problem with these posts is that we only hear the horror stories. We get a sensational picture of constant harassment from one unlucky person. Most of what was written here was outright harassment. In many places it would be seen as outright illegal for the company to allow this to continue.

I take issue with complaining about "subtle" sexism, however. Life is not fair for men either. In fact, unfairness is universal in life for reasons that are out of anybody's control. By pushing for unobtainable fairness, you are training people to expect fairness, which is disabling. Boys are attacked by other boys in school. You are constantly tested by other males for signs of fear. Big deal. It toughens you up for later life. Gender "equality" in many ways has become just another production output to be maximised without regard to secondary costs.

antiterra6• 14 years ago

We're not talking about "life" in any sort of universal context. Whatever 'female privilege' you can try to conjure up in general is largely irrelevant to this very specific setting: a technology profession. Is it really unobtainable to not tend towards choosing the woman to be the head of the potluck or to take notes just because she's a woman? Is it really that unobtainable to not make jokes about PMS or breasts? We're in a really sad state if it's impossible to go to work and not do those things, and a sadder one if those things are so important people will fight for the ability to do them.

javascriptlol16• 14 years ago

You are painting these things as universal. If there were some rule about women and potlucks I'd care. As it is, there is not. I have never even seen a potluck in the workplace! There are much bigger, structural problems to worry about right now. It's like we're on a boat with a hole in the bottom and every interest group is complaining that their feet are getting wetter than all the others. We wouldn't have this problem if the environment were more conducive to smaller businesses - women could avoid these problems by becoming their own bosses. Instead of escaping our entrapments we are arguing for better conditions in the prison.

wpietri16• 14 years ago

Your justification of bullying and aggression is just sad.

Life isn't intrinsically fair, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to make it so. Further, that men don't have perfect lives does not somehow imply that sexism is ok. We can end it. We will.

javascriptlol16• 14 years ago

Your response is sad, because you accuse me of things I never said. I never said "bullying" was justified. Infectious disease is a fact of life. We can wash our hands and prevent the worst plagues, but there is every reason to think that total elimination of disease would be ecologically unsound for humans. People need an immune system. Do you think that I am now "justifying" HIV? It's not "sexism" to be a prejudiced human being.

strix_varius8• 14 years ago

Wait, you mean you wouldn't sacrifice the workplace happiness of your entire office to satisfy the hypersensitivity of one employee?

delinka• 14 years ago

I agree this is a problem. But it's not one-sided.

I work (part time, not IT) in an environment where it's perfectly OK to generalize and joke about how men are assholes or idiots. I'm no writer, and I'm not about to attempt writing a post about the situation. I've been around enough that I can shrug it off at the end of the day, but in the moment it's beyond annoying and approaching degrading.

ChristianMarks2• 14 years ago

I haven't found this in academia as much as in bureaucratic office culture. At one bank where I once had the displeasure of working, one woman manager liked to make disparaging remarks about the physiques of her male subordinates. She was an acquaintance of a well-known action star and used him as the basis for her invidious comparisons. I thought this treatment was completely unnecessary.

Joking about men being idiots is sexist (or misandrist), but I'm beginning to wonder whether the unfairness consists in excluding one half of the population of the working environments in which this assessment is commonly made. OK just kidding, "lighten up." (I hate that phrase.)

scarmig• 14 years ago

What a trainwreck of a comments section.

If your immediate knee-jerk response is to try to point out why it's her fault without reflecting on her points, you're part of the problem.

kirpekar• 14 years ago

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"

Anyone says that at my workplace and they will be shown the door in less than 120 seconds.

ckpwong6• 14 years ago

Honestly, I'm OK with the first part of the comment. It's the latter part which irks (most) people.

Had it been "Katie's got the low cut dress on today! Going out tonight?" then I think it's acceptable.

nikatwork• 14 years ago

My wife puts up with this all the time. She is an assertive and decisive businessperson, but is labelled "abrasive" and "a bitch" because she isn't meek, submissive and soft-spoken. The same behavior in males is encouraged and rewarded.

My parent's generation moved us past overt sexism; our generation needs to move us past subtle sexism. Otherwise, we are still wasting a large part of our human potential.

ericb2• 14 years ago

My wife deals with this too. I think, if I were ever a woman, I'd have to go with "being a bitch" because it is often the only way not to get walked over and keep your self respect.

OneBytePerGreen2• 14 years ago

Dunno. I'm a woman, and I think that blog poster needs to lighten up.

I've worked in IT for years - usually as the only woman on the team - and I've never felt degraded or discriminated against for being female. Maybe slight prejudices in the beginning when the guys think I'm not as good as them, but I enjoy proving them wrong. There is banter, and sometimes it's not 100% HR approved, but I've never felt that it was mean spirited or intended to put me down. I've found that by and large, computer engineers are super-nice, funny, and respectful towards women.

The comment about the guy noticing her low-cut dress and wanting to sit near her... not entirely appropriate, but is this really bad enough to run to HR and complain? That said, I wouldn't feel comfortable drawing attention with my clothes, so I would never wear something low-cut. I find that a lightweight cotton dress shirt is more comfortable than a tight, low-cut top anyway. If someone asked me to arrange a pot-luck or bring them coffee, it would simply not be happening.

I'm on the East Coast though. Maybe all the disrespectful frat boy "brogrammers" are working on the West Coast?

briancurtin2• 14 years ago

You think she needs to lighten up because you haven't had the same experiences and you have different ideas of comfortable clothing?

OneBytePerGreen2• 14 years ago

I mean "lighten up" as in, she perceives "a million little barbs" around her and sees herself as the victim of sexism lurking everywhere. She didn't just criticize one company or co-worker, but the whole industry. Her post is a torrent of rhetorical questions, exclamation points, hyperbole, and quotes she ascribes to her co-workers that likely never happened. Do you really think someone responded to her concerns with "if you are not in the middle of being raped or beaten or threatened or fired, lighten up"?

To make such sweeping statements about the industry, I presume she was not happy at her job, changed jobs, and the same thing happened again, and again, to the point where she left the industry altogether, discouraged. Which is weird, given that I changed jobs often myself and never had such experiences.

Two sentences gave me the most pause. One being, "Which label do I want to be stuck with today? Ice Queen or Slut?" It makes me think this is more about herself than the people around her.

The other weird comment was that she loves coding and "spent thousands of dollars to go to conferences so I can learn more about it." All excellent IT people I know learn stuff hands-on by playing around with technologies and studying on their own. Maybe there are other reasons why she felt stuck doing inferior tasks. If you are crucial to the team's success, nobody treats you like the "secretary who we let on the server" or a personal assistant, regardless of your gender.

I hope that the discussion of this topic doesn't make men paranoid about saying anything around women, because the fun and banter is one of the things that makes working in IT so enjoyable.

Jem4• 14 years ago

I'd love to wear lightweight cotton dress shirts. Unfortunately, trying to get a pair of 36G breasts into a shirt cut for my size is an exercise in futility. The results border on pornographic - gaping buttons, bulges etc. I have a few choices:

a) buy a shirt 3 sizes bigger and look like a clown

b) spend a fortune on clothing designed specifically for the 'well endowed' woman OR

c) wear something I own that makes me comfortable - which may or may not be low cut but is bugger all to do with anyone else (and really, most of the time is not designed to be low cut but ends up being so because the material shifts)

Do any of these situations warrant me being commented on, criticised or jeered at? Should I suffer these comments for something that isn't my fault?

(And don't even get me started on how being a breastfeeding mum impacts on both the choices above AND the range and depth of comments I receive.)

I'm glad that you've never felt degraded or discriminated against for being female. That doesn't mean it should be ignored when it does happen. That doesn't mean it is somehow this woman's fault and that she needs to "lighten up".

jiggy20116• 14 years ago

To be fair though, I've worked in places that were 70/80% female before and I was usually the first person they asked when they needed something heavy moved.

Perhaps it's just that many guys are so disorganized that it really makes sense for the woman in the group to take notes etc.

msbarnett6• 14 years ago

> Perhaps it's just that many guys are so disorganized that it really makes sense for the woman in the group to take notes etc.

Assuming that, because she's a woman, she'd be better suited to note-taking is the definition of sexism.

jiggy20116• 14 years ago

except in this instance it wasn't an assumption , it was a fairly obvious fact.

evincarofautumn• 14 years ago

I’m a bit loath to add to the already long discussion, and most of what I might address has already been thoroughly hashed out. However, as a bisexual male, perhaps I have a different perspective than most people here.

Fact is, I’ve experienced sexual harassment just as much from women as from men. Who does it, in a given situation, depends only on who’s in power. In the male-dominated tech industry, that means men. But most people like to make sexual comments and advances sometimes, when we feel we can. And, unfortunately, that often make others feel rightly uncomfortable.

It’s a sad paradox—one of the best ways to make the industry less hostile to women is to attract more women, to even the power balance. But women aren’t attracted to the industry because it’s so hostile in the first place.

hengli• 14 years ago

While subtle discrimination is really bad, how does she get from low cut dress to slut? That's surely something she came up with herself and nothing like that the guy intended. The guy certainly doesn't want her to wrap herself up in sweaters, why does she feel like that's how she should respond?

I feel like there's a huge gulf between second and third wave feminists. Modern ones would find the above comment empowering, you only react in this way if you've been brought up in a society and culture that demeans female sexuality and teaches you that low cut dresses implies slutiness and so on.

natep11• 14 years ago

My interpretation is that she felt the low cut dress comment was derogatory (like the term slut), and that the man, by sitting across from her in order to sexualize her, thought he was doing what she (the slut) wanted ("why else do women dress nice?"). If she weren't a slut, then her dress would be a dress, and there would be no reason to call attention to it, especially not in that way.

The guy doesn't want her to wrap herself in sweaters only because he wants to continue to objectify her, not because he sees her as a person that has the right to dress comfortably (as long as it's still appropriate).

What's empowering about being a sexual object if you want to be a programmer?

jroseattle• 14 years ago

Katie, don't leave the field -- just find the right group to work with. It's the company you keep.

Don't let everyone else dictate your life.

dihard• 14 years ago

How about .. embrace your femininity. The bigger the chip on our shoulder about being a chick in the workplace, the more we're told to "lighten up."

Plan the potluck - isn't it fun to plan things? Take the notes - aren't you super organized and taking notes anyway? If given a demeaning comment - sincerely and gracefully refute it the first time, replacing it with a comment about the quality of your work. And, seriously, stop wearing revealing clothes to work - have some respect and save that for your spouse!

This is not to diminish therealkatie's complaints, nor to say that every woman actually enjoys baking cookies, planning potlucks, or taking notes. I do, though, and I've never had a problem with respect.

wpietri16• 14 years ago

I don't think you can diminish somebody's complaints and then follow up with "this is not to diminish your complaints".

xentronium• 14 years ago

"I am sorry that you felt offended"

hzay• 14 years ago

I'm a woman, this happens to me (not very often but that might be because I've worked in this industry only for two years) and whenever it does, I just say something horribly cold.

One day I had a pretty watch on, and a male coworker said "That's such a come-hither watch". He was one of the most intelligent people I'd met, and it was painful to hear that come from him. I made an exception and tried to tell him that one might wear something pretty simply because they liked wearing it but I don't believe I got my point across.

I don't think it's a reason to quit though. Everyone suffers from several disadvantages that others might not know about. For example, the guy above once complained that some american universities (like purdue university) prefer women candidates to improve their sex ratio, and that it's unfair.

I don't want to tell you to stoically put up with this problem, but that's what I try to do.

cellularmitosis4• 14 years ago

"That's such a come-hither watch".

Making objectifying comments in the workplace is wrong, no two ways about it. But because I don't have your context, this one jumped out at me as "could be interpreted in many ways". I'm curious if I can cajole a bit more context out of you? (because I've made my share of innocently-intended comments resulting in a situation going horribly awry, so I'm always looking to improve my appropriateness radar).

Specifically, do you think it was A) an innocent/clueless comment, B) a "testing the waters" comment as a prelude to hitting on you, or C) outright hitting on you?

A) Do you think he was just complimenting you on the watch? Particularly, I wonder because he made the comment about a thing, not about you. I.e., consider the difference between "that's a sexy skirt" and "you have a sexy ass". The later is clearly objectifying, but the former could be interpreted innocently or offensively, because its a comment about an object (although even the former is pretty risky -- you'd have to be very close friends with the person and be sure they'd understand your intent to feel safe making such a remark).

B) Or perhaps he was "testing the waters"? I've notice that being labelled a "creep" actually has more to do with whether your attraction is unrequited, than whether the action was objectively creepy, and a "testing the waters" approach is one way to try and avoid being the office creepster. Unless of course even testing the waters is creepster material (I hope not...).

C) or was he just flat-out being a slime ball?

thomasdavis• 14 years ago

Attack sexism, not humour! Please stop killing humour

aptsurdist• 14 years ago

I just want to say a sincere thank you for writing this. I hope the whole community will read this with an open mind and understand how important it is to be conscious of these subtleties.

reneherse6• 14 years ago

Hear hear.

dazbradbury• 14 years ago

Sounds like another argument for more people to read "How to Win Friends and Influence People"[1]:

For the people making sexist comments, there are lots of interesting stories and points in there. But obviously you can't force people to read the book, and expect any difference!

However, it is very applicable for the OP also. Take for example this overview of one chapter:

    How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment:

    Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
    Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
    Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.
    Ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
    Let the other person save face.
    Praise every improvement.
    Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
    Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct.
    Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest.

[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influenc...

orderly_chaos• 14 years ago

If you walk around alone in an unsafe neighborhood at night, you're asking for trouble. If you don't have a choice but to be in an unsafe neighborhood, hunker down and get to a point in your life when you can afford a safe neighborhood.

In the programming world, this translates to : become a great programmer, and you will find yourself in a great programming environment (birds of a feather...). If you really love programming, you will get to that point eventually.

Great programmers love programming, and love learning from other great programmers even more. That's why they'll never offend another great programmer or risk it all by indulging in bad behavior. (You can actually substitute "great programmer" here with "great any-profession". There might be exceptions, but in 15 years of programming, I haven't met any.)

When you don't have these types of programmers around you, whats left is the (sub-)average programmer, and the concomitant sexist environment.

Also, by wearing a low-cut blouse to a professional environment, you drive away those people who actually contribute to a good environment, leaving behind those that don't.

Biologically, men's brains light up when they see a woman's cleavage. The people who value you as a programmer will avoid you, because they recognize what's going on in their heads, avoid the distraction, and the risk of offending you. Heck, some of them might not even look in your direction. My advice is the same one I give my daughters: wear a scarf - it prevents the over-heating problem you mentioned. Its the same reason I wear boxers, rather than walk around in shorts.

You don't need to lighten up, just hunker down.

natep11• 14 years ago

I think that solving the problem of an unsafe neighborhood is much more intractable than solving sexism in the workplace. Mostly, this is because 'we' are not part of the culture in those unsafe neighborhoods. We are part of the tech culture. If we, as a culture/society/whatever can agree that this kind of behavior is unethical, unprofessional, and not welcome, then we can and should express our disapproval towards those who are sexist, or allow for sexism to be the problem it is.

So, to me, you're saying that because we can't solve unsafe neighborhoods by calling out that undesirable behavior when we see it (which we can't), we shouldn't call out undesirable behavior in an unsafe work environment.

Biologically, human minds do or want to do lots of things when presented with various stimuli. That doesn't mean it's OK for them to do it. I wonder if we're biologically inclined to victim-blame the way you just did...

mattacular• 14 years ago

Well that was a rather specious mansplaination

parfe4• 14 years ago

>Biologically, men's brains light up when they see a woman's cleavage.

WoW! I did not know that. Thank you for that fact. But how do the men function in tribes where women walk around bare chested? It's a wonder more men don't drown on topless and nude beaches!

Or maybe you are attributing social conditioning to biology as an excuse for shitty behavior? And you have no actual evidence but you just badly want it to be true?

chojeen• 14 years ago

I have to wonder if I'm just hanging out in the wrong circles or working at the wrong companies, because I've never seen anything even approaching some of the appalling examples in the article. Am I in the minority here? Note that I'm not denying that it happens; I've just never seen it personally.

Disclaimer: I work for a midwestern branch of a major company based in California, and I've never worked in any of the major tech hubs.

losvedir• 14 years ago

This post raises two issues which everyone keeps conflating. I don't think we can have a productive discussion unless they're kept separate.

The first issue is the "you should take notes" mindset. This one is unequivocally wrong. The second issue is the "low cut blouse" remark, which I feel is wrong only by social convention.

Here's why the first issue is wrong: It implies that women don't belong in this line of work, that they can't do it effectively, and that they should get out. Factually wrong.

The second issue is wrong largely by social convention, I think. It's natural for men and women to be attracted to others in the work place. It's hard to avoid. That said, by social convention we're not supposed to talk about it. Talking about it makes you seem creepy since you're flouting social convention and if you're willing to do that, what else are you willing to do....?

However, if the underlying physiological response is not inappropriate (and I don't think it's fair to suggest that it's inappropriate -- it's how we're wired), then how could it be logically inappropriate to mention your feelings? I think our society has found that business proceeds best if we don't mention them and pretend we're not feeling them, but I could envision a culture along the lines of Radical Honesty where just bringing up how you feel isn't wrong.

So, keep the issues separate and treat each appropriately. Implying women aren't able to do tech work? Absolutely wrong. Stop it. Indicating that a woman is attractive? Realize it's inappropriate because of how our society determined we should interact at work, not because it's inherently immoral, but still don't do it because it might make her feel uncomfortable.

marquis• 14 years ago

There's a real problem here that comes down to the status-quo of the office. Imagine your office of 100 people is 50% male/female, and a nice sampling of racial groups, sexualities and ages (I've had the fortune to work in such a place). What happens is that there is sufficient diversity and commonality between enough people of their varying interests, looks and views, that you find it completely unnecessary to make comments about what someone is wearing, or whether their gender deems them capable. I say again, the problem with the high-tech industry is there is simply not enough diversity. Now we can't fix this today or tomorrow, maybe not in 10 years, but you can certainly imagine that it's there. With any comment, consider what is appropriate given a hypothetical situation where there is a good balance of whatever-stereotype-you-are-addressing and go from there.

jimmyjazz14• 14 years ago

I am very glad this subject is being discussed here. The subtle sexism in the tech industry has always been disturbing to me as a man and I can only imagine how women must feel about it. Sexism in our industry is not only offensive it is counterproductive. It saddens me to think of the great female innovators that may be turned off from entering the industry because it is seen as unwelcoming to them.

castillowl• 14 years ago

Overly Sensitive.

jarodym• 14 years ago

"When asked, most men will gallantly express their admiration for women in general and profess a profuse love for their mates in particular. Despite these touching personal testimonials, society is rife with misogyny and patriarchy. A cursory glance at the current newspapers or television news reveals a global society in which the majority of men disdain women. While some cultures are more egalitarian than others, men's actions suggest that they believe firmly in their superiority over women.

-Leonard Schlain (Sex, Time, and Power)

didip• 14 years ago

When I managed my team, I bought gallons of beers for everyone. With my own money, and handing the beers myself to my peers (In this example I'm using beer-time as substitute for potluck).

Of course I did ask for reimbursement through the company and the company did approve, but that's not the point.

The act of doing potluck is supposed to raise morale. Whoever manager in charge should organize the potluck him/herself for maximum boost of morale. Telling others to do potluck is so lame. Telling someone else to take note is equally lame.

strix_varius8• 14 years ago

Would you enjoy working with this author, regardless of gender?

I work on a small team - just over 20 people - with only four women.

Every single one is a hilarious, self-possessed, confident individual. All the men, myself included, treat them with respect... meaning, we tease the shit out of them.

To do otherwise would exclude them from the team. Have you ever seen a cohesive group that didn't joke around? A tiny fraction of the jabs traded by men are HR-approved... if we filtered that for the women who work with us, we would be treating them as if they're too weak or too sensitive to be a part of the group.

So instead, we treat them no differently than any other team member. If one of the other coders were to arrive unusually dressed up, I would absolutely comment on it, regardless of whether it's a suit or a dress, but one of the ladies would probably beat me to it. Frankly, the women push the HR line harder than any of us guys, and we love them for it.

If you find that people are consistently telling you to "lighten up," whether you're male or female, you shouldn't assume that the world is conspiring to put you down. You're probably just no fun to work with.

derrida• 14 years ago

Talking of sexism.

Dear Y-combinator community, you have been caught red-handed @ 17:50 in this video at Startup School http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9vPAlb_0&t=17m50s

Would you laugh if it were a male speaking? I kind of wish people would, then men might know the feeling of what it's like. Can you imagine if this happened to you?

This isn't PG's fault. It's the idiots in the audience. You can have a high-IQ, make brilliant stuff and still be a sexist asshole.

I'm a male, and I hate this stuff, because my it's my friends that are the ones that are affected by this behaviour.

tsotha• 14 years ago

Damn, I'm glad I don't have to work with such a prickly person. Men have to deal with minor sleights and annoyances, too. That's why they tell you to "lighten up". Because you're not special.

bshankle3• 14 years ago

My wife is a programmer. I hear you!

ChristianMarks2• 14 years ago

I consider the phrase "lighten up" patronizing and would avoid it altogether. I was once told to "lighten up" by an interviewer at a bank and immediately knew that I did not want to work there. It's insulting to suggest that a person ought to have feelings other than the ones they have. In my view, feelings (not behavior) are generally involuntary, largely beyond conscious control and lie outside the moral sphere.

I'm in academia, where the use-mention distinction isn't recognized where sexual innuendo is concerned. To be on the safe side, I take the attitude that even non-interacting, space-like separated particles at opposite ends of the universe could be accused of sexually harassing each other--and probably are.

jamesrcole• 14 years ago

I can't stand it when people use the "Lighten up" line.

What it really means is that they can't empathise.

For them it's no big deal... so therefore, as far as they see it, it is no big deal.

If someone truly thinks another person is taking something too seriously, and really feels that something should be said about it, then the non-patronising thing to do would be to try and explain it to the other person.

einhverfr7• 14 years ago

Reading through the article and the comments here it seems to me that there is a tremendous unresolved tension. There seems to be an idea that we just 'fix the sexism' and that's that. However, stepping back and asking harder questions makes me think the problems are fundamental to highly developed capitalist economies. Before you mod me down, at least read the rest of what I have to say.

Everything we do-- what we wear, how we walk, the way we talk, sends subtle social signals, and these impact all areas of life. Two fundamental (and increasingly entwined) areas of life are sexuality (without which our race dies out) and economic (without which, each of us dies individually). These are tremendously entertwined, with over half of Americans having dated co-workers (see: http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/02/10/the-state-...).

So it seems to me that, particularly single, women navigating the modern workplace are trying to navigate two fundamentally conflicting desires. The first is to be professional and not be open to the problem of being offered promotions for sexual favors, or retaliation for declining such offers, and the second is to find romance, companionship, love, etc. The fact that workplace romances are so common cannot be discounted in this area.

And so you have two key questions:

1) How do you define appropriate boundaries? This is a hellishly difficult problem in the context of the workplace.

2) If boundaries aren't bright but involve a lot of give and take, then doesn't that fundamentally mean that there will be a lot of behavior that will fall outside of that which is desirable?

I honestly don't see how you solve that problem.

On the gender role issue, I am a firm believer that one is generally better off making such tasks as taking notes or arranging potlucks things which are volunteer, and then if that fails, rotated, eliminating those who can't do it reasonably well.

But beyond that........ As long as so much of our social spheres surround work, and that's where a lot of opportunity for dating (both for men and women) lies, I just don't buy that you can wish away unwanted attention.

natep11• 14 years ago

I think another commenter in this thread had a good answer (it was his understanding of California law). You can politely ask a coworker on a date, but if that person declines, then you drop it.

einhverfr7• 14 years ago

And if that co-worker says, "I can't. I am busy tonight"

Does that mean you can't ever ask again?

Or if you ask five times and are politely but not definitively turned down can you ask five more times? 25 more times? Is there no limit?

Now we might say there is an obligation to say something definitive. But then you get into a problem. What if there is a power difference? What if you are a general manager of one business unit asking a floor worker in a different business unit out on a date? Maybe the floor worker is afraid if she hurts your feelings, there will be career consequences? So does that change things?

I don't think sexuality (and that includes romance if we are honest) admits of really simple rules except maybe magic safe words. These things also thrive on mixed messages. Magic safe words ("no" and "stop") protect against the worst problems (sexual assault) but not unwanted attention (how am I supposed to definitively know whether the attention is wanted or not? I can't read minds....), and they don't address the areas where people may want to try to get out of something letting the other person down gently.

paganel• 14 years ago

> All I did was make a joke about you needing to be in the kitchen!

I'm a fellow programmer, and a guy (if it matters), but whenever I hear this exact comment (luckily for me I didn't hear it from any of my present or past co-workers, only distant acquaintances) I almost literally start to boil. Are some of us men really, I mean really that stupid?!

Again, luckily for me most of my career as a programmer has been spent in small non-software specific firms (5 to 20 people) where the female to male ratio was in most cases higher than 50%, so that I didn't have to hear this misogynistic and stupid crap.

hef198983• 14 years ago

You just made me speachless. One of the best comments I ever read on that issue (or any other resembling it)!

hef198983• 14 years ago

Question out of curiosity: I've been down voted why exactly here? :-)

lucb1e• 14 years ago

I was actually wondering the same.

perlpimp• 14 years ago

At my work place we throw around homoerotic jokes and comments all the time and no one is offended. I guess it is only if you're comfortable enough with a group that you can ask them to do ridiculous things, kind of funny way. In rework it mentions that you should hire friends, sounds like that girl is the stranger wether it is because she is a girl or wether the men are disgusting pigs - whatever the case.

She can adapt the group become a leader, I've seen it happen with girls or she can cry about being an abused minority. Such is a difference between strong and weak people. Granted we don't come to work to be leaders some of us enjoy just writing code and doodling up layouts and logos in photoshop. In this case a compromise should be found - offsite work on the project. From a coffee shop or otherwise. You know there are other companies to work with as well, maybe with better female/male ratio.

In the end this is a battle of sexes, the chemistry is wrong - men want to have sex with women and when you add in the mix work and being close, you can either make so that you are not attractive to any of the male members of the work force or do something else. Asking men not to be men is just as cruel as asking a woman to be a man. One way to augment this issue is to hire a ton of girls to work in the team to maybe dilute the male collective. But in every case this may lead to different and unpredictable results. You can't just board a pirate ship and expect sailors to behave all gentlemanly at once - maybe pirate ship full of amazons? at any rate this is hugely complicated because people are. Complaining about it won't get you anywhere, acting does.

Most of us want to see more females in the force. Most of the time nerds I know work harder, because they want to strut their awesome code and how well it works before female member of the team.

VonLipwig• 14 years ago

It's all down to ignorance really isn't it. Isolated incidents by themselves aren't really a big deal. Idiots are everywhere. Sometimes people just don't think before speaking.

Sometimes the odd jibe is actually amusing. Of course when the jibe has been heard a hundred times before it never is.

I have a stutter and the amount of crap I have had over the years is rediculous. It isn't people taking the piss, I am used to that. Its people being 'kind'. People assuming I cannot do something or wouldn't want to do something on account of my speech. People being 'protective' or finishing sentences...

The outride rudeness of people is easy to confront and challenge. It is the subtle stuff which is very difficult to deal with. Often people genuinely do not understand that they have done something wrong. They were just asking someone to take notes and you have become the defacto note taker... whats wrong with that?

I have always thought the best thing to do is stand your ground but if you do that every time you get a reputation of being a stickler and being less approachable. The trouble is finding the right balance between letting the odd thing slide without just leaving yourself open to taking crap.

I feel for Katie and think it is a shame that she has been effectively forced out doing she something she enjoys by the ignorance of others.

thhaar• 14 years ago

My £0.02: having worked in a few teams in the UK, France and Sweden over the course of the last decade, I'd say this is a cultural effect that can be won over locally by a certain company or social group, but would require a coordinated and concerted effort on behalf of men and women to stamp this kind of stealth-bullying out of social acceptability. I fully support the men who will help call out this kind of behaviour, and am also fully satisfied that this issue has front-paged HN for as long as it has.

From my own experience of work, cultural norms and popular issues, although only the smallest of samples, I'd say that (younger) Swedes have a much better handle on the balance of respect and gender roles than their peers in FR or the UK (England, specifically). Even the most subtle attempt at sexism is picked up on to a degree where it is unacceptable to at least publicly chance a remark of this kind in the workplace or in the media. Why this is I can only guess.

Prevalent (older) attitudes may account for the continued pay discrepancy between men and women and all that this reflects, but I'd say the Swedes have a very much less subtly-offensive 'working atmosphere' than those I've been part of elsewhere.

Also troubling is the question of 'women/babies/employment', but that's a whole other can of worms; just as a parting shot - men also leave poorly managed jobs when something better in life is offered to them, at least you get up to 9 months warning with women.

daemon132• 14 years ago

Honestly speaking I am surprised by the quantity of comments, especially the ones on sexism and similar stuff (how to dress, what to cook, etc). Usually, this is an indicator of one big underlying problem, therefore I assume that it is a problem in the US.

At least, this is how the author positions the situation and her individual case.

But..... in reality, at least based on what I observed in the multinational companies, where I worked, such behavior usually surfaces in three cases.

(1) The person does not understand how organizational dynamics and people/power play works, i.e. does not know the rules of the game.

(2) The person is not a good performer, or at least this is how colleagues perceive her or (for god sake) him.

(3) The corporate environment and culture OR the boss are negative - in this case most employees are treated like that.

Based on my personal experience:-

In case of (3) the best advice is to run - find another company that would value this particular individual strengths. There are plenty of companies out there. The life is not worth it to spend it on converting jerks to mother Theresa.

In case of (2) the best advice is to "make yourself so good, that they can't ignore you" [I do not recall that exact wording]. I seriously doubt that a valuable employee [i.e. she/he is the only one who can fix things with positive/negative impact on P&L] would be mistreated. In case she would be, than probably this is the case (3) - the company/boss does not understand the employee's value ---> same advice as above - run. I recall two cases - female HR assistant and male Director of Strategy. The former was just dumb, and the latter was bullshitting his way around. In both cases gender had nothing to do with the fact that both had nothing to bring to the table. So the consensus of high-producing crowd (both female and male) was unanimous.

Usually, if a person is an excellent performer, these things (negative comments, stupid microtasks, etc) just do not appear or do not stick.

In case of (1) the best advice is to find a mentor (gender not relevant), who could teach or coach on how to behave oneself in a group or organization, so called organizational behavior or simply politics. It is difficult to summarize it, but the goal is to learn how to diffuse negative behavior towards you with humor, words or actions immediately at the point of action in such a way that everybody present would think that the one who initiated negative behavior is a jerk (or dumb, or idiot, or an asshole) without you calling names.

For example a comment from colleague

<"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!">

can be rubuffed with

"Oop, John's got his socks smelling today! I know where I shall not be sitting" or smth similar with a big smile.

The simple view and approach is to perceive such people as programs with bugs. To resolve the bug you need to understand how the whole piece is working and what's inside. Therefore, you need to understand each individual, what's inside, what are the bugs and how to approach/address them. Each one is unique and shall be dealt with as such.

Another approach is to start with yourself - how you perceive yourself and own self-confidence.

I agree with OneBytePerGreen that the author shall "lighten up". I do not recall the exact term, but the author perceives that the external environment is what controls her behavior and outcomes. Such view does not faciliate personal growth, or any growth per se. The only way to change is to understand simple fact that behavior of others is defined by your own behavior and start with yourself, because that's the only one a human being can change.

On a side note I especially disagree with one of the comments: <"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" Anyone says that at my workplace and they will be shown the door in less than 120 seconds.>

Acting like that is keeping the real issue under the table and unresolved. The real issue is the person's view of the world and lack of knowledge and understanding of how things work in life. A good boss or co-worker would teach or coach the person how to to deal with that.

Apologies for my English and, possibly, tone. My first real post on NH, so I might have missed some 'untold' rules.

monochromatic4• 14 years ago

> I once had a boss who wanted to turn me into a personal assistant so badly, it ended up in a meeting with HR (he, as white and male, should be allowed to rein in the only female on the team!).

Actually, he should. It has nothing to do with his sex and race though--it has to do with him being THE BOSS.

ahoyhere• 14 years ago

Not saying this is what's happening in these cases, but I've often seen this happen to women not because they're women, but because they create the situation by training people to rely on them to do these things. Women who will take on the tasks nobody else wants to do, who will always do whatever others leave undone, who offers to bring other people food when she goes out, etc. In the spirit of helpfulness or whatever.

This happens to men, too, but more women on the whole seem to be the "step in and get it done" type (for whatever reason). The kind you can rely on to bend over backwards to do something when asked, even if it's ridiculous. You see it in families and it's natural that people behave the same at work as they do at home, when it comes to this kind of behavior.

I'm not like this at all, though. Not at all. Nobody says "Oh, Amy will get it all done." And this never happens to me.

ckpwong6• 14 years ago

When I was in my early 20's, I (the lone female developer) was once asked by my manager to put together a gift for the only other female team member, a tester, who had just given birth. I don't know why I was picked, because I was

(1) very new to the team, (2) didn't knew the other person well, and (3) generally ill-equipped at that stage of my life (really, just entering the "adult world") to anticipate what was an appropriate gift for a new mother.

There were other team members who were already parents (of multiple children, even), thus probably knew better. But I was picked.

I think I just got a Toys'R'Us gift card as cop out.

monochromatic4• 14 years ago

If you turn innocent (or even well-intentioned) comments into an HR case, I'm guessing your co-workers are not sad to see you gone.

michaelhoffman• 14 years ago

What happened to the "OH HAI SEXISM" thread, previously at (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3739913)?

sheraz• 14 years ago

Dear Katie,

Welcome to business, now grow up. I agree that the "lighten up" strategy is tiresome and ineffective. I don't know you, but it seems you need to grow some thicker skin and learn to hit back.

Do you think Meg Whitman, Carly Fiorna, or Arianna Huffington take shit from people? Hello no! It is called assertiveness and standing your ground.

Grow up, Katie. The real world has all kinds of people. People who grew up believing in gender roles. People who grew up thinking homosexuality is bad. People who grew up with no discipline from hippie parents. Putting all those personalities in the room can be chaotic. There are two lessons you need to learn:

1. assert yourself, and do it in a way that the offending party understands. HR and all these laws are crutches for solving the actual problems.

2. stop worrying about what others think about you.

mediacrisis• 14 years ago

You know, I come to HN mostly for the enlightened commentary on the news articles that are posted. Yet anytime something related to sexism in the industry comes up, I am stunned at some of the comments.

Yes. It is hard being a woman in the industry. It is hard being a woman in general. But the worst part is seeing how many men think we act like an entirely different species, and its disheartening. Sometimes, comments speak of women as if we don't even read this site.

Obviously there are many cultural and sociological norms at play here, but I expect more from this community. I guess thats my fault.

rweba• 14 years ago

The same story when anything involving race comes up.

badclient• 14 years ago

So hey HN, if we really are gonna go on a crusade against objectification and gender roles, why does it almost always have to be about women playing victim?

Any guy could whip up blog posts about daily situations where specific (not necessarily superior) roles are imposed upon them by society simply because they are men.

I get told all the time by the ladies (even if jokingly) that I should put on some weight so I am more of a man.

I get asked all the time and it is assumed of me even more times to carry the bags because I am the man in the situation.

Aren't there centuries old idea about being a "gentleman"? Where you are expected to hold the door for the woman, buy her stuff etc.

Aren't there studies that men are much less likely to report rape than women? Shouldn't that be much more appalling to all than some of the pettier examples posted on HN recently?

rmrm• 14 years ago

in no way a contradiction of anything, or a statement of what is correct in the workplace just an observation on human relations as it relates to this topic:

A.) Women would not like to be treated by men as men treat other men in the workplace. You might think so, but I think you'd find it is also inappropriate, just in different ways.

B.) Men would not like to be treated as women often treat other women in the workplace. You might think so, but I think you'd find it is also inappropriate, just in different ways.

which leads me to:

C.) It is difficult for either gender to rigorously define appropriate asexual behavior towards one another, as their behavior is (generally) genuinely sex-aware.

Shenglong• 14 years ago

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"

-> "Oop, looks like Bob's wearing the same thing as yesterday."

-> "Kinda desperate there, eh?"

pabloPXL• 14 years ago

I think both behaviors provide continuation to the problem. On one side, the people who is actually sexist, or racist, or just believe in stereotypes. In the another, the people who also believes that the rest of the people are biased towards their sex, skin color or condition. Ignoring information that is not interesting or useful for us is the best tool we have to not be hurt by other people so easily, get stronger and prepared to survive in an unfair society and preserve freedom of speech. Nobody wants to be negatively discriminated, but does somebody think positive discrimination is the solution? I believe is the same social problem after all.

chunkybacon6• 14 years ago

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that of the 752 comments on this thread at the moment probably >700 were written by men? Isn't it potentially sexist in and of itself to have a large discussion about this subject exclusively between men?

agateform3• 14 years ago

AFAIK, ycombinator forum software does not make a sex/gender distinction. I don't see how it could be sexist.

Being labeled a sexist is a terrible thing. Saying that a discussion by man on the subject is sexist seems potentially sexist because it implies that man should not discuss because they are man.

peterwwillis• 14 years ago

I hope one day we can all work in environments that are completely non-hostile. Some jobs seem to be a lot more rough than others, in my experience. I've never had to deal with sexism or prejudice but i've had my share of crap to take from coworkers. I've also worked with highly professional, straight-laced people who know not to be asshats and treat people fairly.

I really hope you don't stop doing what you love because of where you work.

jabits• 14 years ago

I can't up this enough. My wife is a Java dev (I am a .Net dev), and I hear about the crap she has to endure almost weekly. It truly makes me want to walk into her client site and smack some faces. It is so hard to believe that this can be so common, especially since the field is made up mostly of younger "enlightened and tolerant" guys. This speaks so badly for our field (and society in general). (Now we are both in the early stages of "age-ism", but hey, we can fight that with talent, right?!?)

pbhjpbhj2• 14 years ago

I'm a bit late to the party here but isn't she being sexist too?

For example, with the notes issue - how does she know that she is being chosen because she's female. She probably doesn't. She's probably assuming that's the reason, because men are misogynist pigs, right?

It's one of those situations where we can't tell at all. The mens rea, if there is one, is hidden.

Why doesn't she assume that she takes the best notes or that the boss thinks that because of her CV [made up example:] having documentation experience or the best English pass scores of the group that she'll be the best note taker.

"Lighten up"

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