The new and upgraded Framework Laptop

https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgraded-framework-laptop/18646

by etbusch • 4 years ago

1680 734 4 years ago

community.frame.work

nrp38• 4 years ago

I'm happy to answer any questions around this! We've been working on this since update since we launched the product last year, so we're excited to be able to share it today.

etbusch2• 4 years ago

Do you have any preliminary specs on how battery life differs between these and the 11th gen equivalents?

nrp38• 4 years ago

In use battery life is largely the same, though Intel has added some additional features with 12th Gen Intel Core that can improve in-use power consumption in some scenarios. The main optimizations we were able to land were in standby power consumption. For Windows users, this means longer Modern Standby before going into Hibernate. For Linux, more importantly since hibernate is atypical, it means being able to leave your laptop unplugged for much longer when not in use.

vodkapump• 4 years ago

I know this gets asked a lot and isn't really about this new upgraded model but..

Any news on plans for AMD models?

capableweb2• 4 years ago

Any news on plans for AMD models?

This is the only thing stopping me from getting a Framework laptop right now. I'd pay a premium for it as well.

coder5432• 4 years ago

Framework has said many times that they won't discuss future product plans. I doubt they want to experience the Osborne Effect.

simonh• 4 years ago

Does anyone know if the Framework laptop use a mainboard form factor that is available with AMD chips?

The modularity of some components can be assumed because they are industry standards, like wifi modules I suppose. Other components perhaps Framework have designed their own range of modules with a common form factor, but it must be very expensive to engineer a compatible mainboard in the same form factor with a different chipset, unless they are using an existing standardised design.

criddell3• 4 years ago

Why AMD?

Why is there so little interest in ARM-based Linux laptops? Does AMD (or Intel) have anything even close in performance / watt that one can get from an ARM-based system?

robotnikman2• 4 years ago

I think the main issue with AMD might be they lack support for Thunderbolt (last I've heard anyways)

the_gipsy• 4 years ago

Any chance of ortholinear (grid) keyboards happening?

nrp38• 4 years ago

We've gotten requests from a couple of ortholinear keyboard makers on it. With our current Input Cover design, it is technically possible to do, but would have fixed costs that would be extremely difficult to amortize over the number of units we could realistically sell. Because of that, we don't have any active plans for this.

rocqua• 4 years ago

I see there are only DDR4 options. Presumably if you bring your own memory, that also has to be DDR4.

Why no DDR5?

nrp38• 4 years ago

When we started developing this product last year, we looked at price trends and performance data on DDR4 vs DDR5 and made the bet that DDR5 would have both price and availability issues in 2022. That has turned out to be the case, with DDR5 SO-DIMMs typically going for 50-70% over the equivalent DDR4 capacity, without delivering performance improvements to justify that premium. This is something that will improve in the future, and we'll continue to track this for future products.

BlackLotus89• 4 years ago

Is there a plan to offer other payment methods and/or multiple laptop orders. We want to use frame.work laptops for work and those limitations make it really hard for us to get it through logistics/purchase. The upgraded version would be an ideal reason for me to rerequest this as my new main machine.

IceyEC• 4 years ago

Looks like they support bulk ordering: https://frame.work/support?category=business-volume-ordering...

nrp38• 4 years ago

Yep, we currently support orders of up to 5 laptops per order for the original 11th Gen Intel Core-based Framework Laptop. For larger quantities for businesses, we also have additional business-focused payment methods via Balance (including things like NET terms). We're building ingestion flows for that, but in the meantime you can submit a request through our support form: https://frame.work/support?category=business-volume-ordering...

PetitPrince• 4 years ago

Any chance to have a trackpoint-style pointing device in the future?

komadori• 4 years ago

Just to pile on, I would love to buy a Framework laptop instead of more ThinkPads, but I really can't do without a pointing stick keyboard. I even have a Tex Shinobi* for my desktop! I hope that Framework or a 3rd-party accessory can fill this gap in the market.

* https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi

phinnaeus• 4 years ago

Are there any patent issues to deal with for that?

tomerv• 4 years ago

When will you open the option to order to Israel?

  We haven’t opened ordering in your region yet, but we’re looking forward to getting there! We can notify you when ordering opens:

Kerrick2• 4 years ago

Will all software shipped with the hardware when ordered with GNU/Linux be Free or will there be non-Free software such as the BIOS/UEFI?

EDIT: I just realized that you cannot order this laptop with GNU/Linux pre installed. I was mistaken.

nrp38• 4 years ago

We've seen distro preference be too broad to make pre-loading efficient. Instead, we ship DIY Edition with no OS and publish guides for how to install and optimize the most popular distros. Our embedded controller firmware is open (see https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController), and we're working with some community members on attempting a coreboot port.

Jhsto• 4 years ago

Any plans to ship models with coreboot one day?

vaylian• 4 years ago

Potentially: https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only...

zucker422• 4 years ago

Why is the SN750/SN850 the default SSD, given it has relatively high power consumption[1] and separately is there any reason to believe that building a DIY version with a different SSD wouldn't work?

[1] https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/wd-black-sn850-m-2-nvme...

nrp38• 4 years ago

We see folks in the community using a range of different SSDs, but SN750/SN770/SN850 are what we have done the most validation on. We see good perf/watt on the WDC drives. It's unclear why Tom's Hardware was seeing poor idle power with power saving modes on.

spiffytech• 4 years ago

Any plans to offer larger displays?

philliphaydon2• 4 years ago

You have a bunch of job opening’s in Taiwan but you currently don’t ship to Taiwan? :(

yasing2• 4 years ago

what are the specs on the expansion cards? looks like usb-c.. why not let order with 0 expansion cards and use a dongle of my choosing?

MMS21• 4 years ago

I think can you do that with the DIY edition.

Brian_K_White2• 4 years ago

You can with the diy version, but don't do that.

Even if you only want 4 usbc ports, get 4 usbc modules and don't be a baby about the 4x$9 for passthrough cards that don't even have electronics.

The usbc port inside the module bay is directly soldered to the motherboard. The module and bay serve as an important prophylactic to protect the usbc port from damage.

I would only use the real port inside as a backup when some module breaks or is lost or something.

It IS useful, and IS an explicit selling point (to me anyway) that you have the option to do something like plug a power supply or hub or dongle directly in there instead of it being a proprietary connector, but that doesn't mean do it regularly, especially not if the machine is being used in a portable manner where you're always plugging and unplugging.

aestetix• 4 years ago

Can existing customers "trade in" their old motherboards for the newer models, with credit applied to make it cheaper?

nrp38• 4 years ago

We don't do trade-ins, but we have released projects to enable re-use of old Mainboards: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard

We're seeing some interesting outputs of that: https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal

EastSmith• 4 years ago

Not a question for the announcement, but the location page is missing countries, for example Bulgaria. This prevents me from even telling you I want to order form here (Bulgaria).

https://frame.work/locale/edit

nrp38• 4 years ago

Thanks, captured on our internal bug tracker.

mssdvd• 4 years ago

What are the main reasons for not shipping to other EU / EEA countries?

nrp38• 4 years ago

Laptops are uniquely challenging in that each additional country has its own keyboard language, increasing the number of SKUs we need to manage and hold inventory for. This is beyond the normal challenges of entering new markets. We enumerated this in a blog post here: https://frame.work/blog/scaling-up-infrastructure

We are continuing to build the infrastructure and keyboards to expand into more countries though!

mentos• 4 years ago

Congrats!

Looking at the DIY Guide [0] it looks like a lot of the laptop comes pre-assembled still (case, motherboard, screen, keyboard).

Is it more cost effective to do the labor on Framework's side to ship everything more tightly together in 1 box or could we see a 'DIY Pro' option that ships every component in its own box? (Maybe even at greater discount?)

Also, check out this Mechanical Watch [1] tutorial that made it to the front page of HN last week. I could definitely see an exploded assembly view like this being really instructional for Framework DIY-ers.

[0] https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition... [1] https://ciechanow.ski/mechanical-watch/

nrp38• 4 years ago

We wrote about this in an early blog post: https://frame.work/blog/the-evolution-of-the-framework-lapto...

It would be substantially more expensive for us to ship the laptop in a state that is less assembled. Packaging, labor for pack-out, and increased size and weight for freight all end up being quite a bit more than product assembly labor.

deng2• 4 years ago

Does the laptop support proper S3 sleep, or is this impossible with modern Intel CPUs?

pedro22• 4 years ago

I was under the impression it was largely a BIOS option.

Basically if S0idle is advertised as supported, S3 isn't.

On recent BIOS on Thinkpads this tends to be an option which can be toggled.

nrp38• 4 years ago

S3 was technically not supported in 11th Gen Intel Core, but seemed to mostly work anyway. S3 is also not technically supported in 12th Gen Intel Core, and it seems to mostly not work at the moment, and it is unclear if that will change. However, s0ix continues to improve substantially in recent kernels, to the point where there doesn't seem to be a major standby battery life advantage to s3 anymore (on 11th Gen).

ongy• 4 years ago

Less of a question, more a note:

In the configure page to pre-order for the 12th-Gen variant, there's a link to the 12th-Gen variant. Feels a bit weird and confusing to be pointed towards the shiny new variant, while shopping for the shiny new variant.

nrp38• 4 years ago

Thanks, we are fixing this now.

user_7832• 4 years ago

Not too different from the AMD comment, is there any plan or roadmap for future generations of (yet-unreleased) Intel chips?

Also congrats on the update, I honestly wasn't expecting it. I'm seriously considering a framework laptop/motherboard for my next PC.

cf• 4 years ago

I love everything about what you have planned. Is there anything in the works for creating more keyboard options? While mechanical keyboards might be too impractical, even something with bigger arrow keys would be nice.

dorfsmay3• 4 years ago

The day there is a ThinkPad style keyboard (trackpoint, 3 button) and a matte screen, I'll order one immediately, and assuming it lives up to the expectation, I'd order more after that quickly.

defaultwizard• 4 years ago

Is there any plans (that you can talk about) for a slightly larger model with maybe more ports?

I want one of these so bad but if you end up doing a larger one shortly down the line i'm going to be really gutted.

Edit: also any plans for a blank ISO keyboard to match the blank ANSI one?

boppo13• 4 years ago

Any chance you'll eventually have a Framework with a 'clickier' keyboard and a trackpoint like the x220? I will happily buy your product the next time my x220 dies (instead of upgrading it) if it has the nice clicky keyboard and a trackpoint. A slightly thicker laptop is very much a fair trade-off.

jefurii• 4 years ago

I'd totally buy a Framework mainboard if I could squeeze it into my old x220 case.

_ink_• 4 years ago

The missing trackpoint is a major reason for me to stay with Lenovo.

gavinpc2• 4 years ago

I just ordered a Framework yesterday. I'm not interested in the 12th gen chip, but is there any other reason I might want to cancel & re-order today? i.e. would I be getting an older design?

edit: Someone also brings this up on the OP: https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgra...

freedomben2• 4 years ago

Not GP but if it were me and you don't care about the 12th gen chip, I definitely wouldn't cancel and re-order. I would guess the battery improvement won't be dramatic, but you'll end up with a little more cost and a longer wait time. The only thing might be the new cover. The old one is pretty flimsy and doesn't tolerate heavy abuse well. Mine is always in my house or a backpack so it's not been a problem for me, but if I carried it around publicly where it can be dropped and such, I might be concerned about it.

djbusby2• 4 years ago

Something is really wacky with v-scrolling on your pre-order page (Pixel3/Chrome) I wasn't able to complete the process.

pimterry• 4 years ago

What are the constraints that are blocking wider EU availability?

Right now, in Europe it's only available in a handful of countries (5 of 27). I'm in Spain, and I see I can spec a perfect machine and get it delivered just over the border in France, but I can't get the same thing delivered here just a couple of hours away, which is very surprising! My understanding was the single market & customs union etc should make going from 1 to N EU countries pretty easy.

Is this due to smoe regulatory issues, or needing to organize shipping differently for every country, or waiting to include an ñ key, or something else?

Right now, I'm very seriously looking at ordering one, renting a PO box in France and shipping the laptop here myself, which seems a bit ridiculous.

sschueller• 4 years ago

Will Switzerland ever be able to order them with a Swiss German Keyboard?

dathinab2• 4 years ago

The problem is (my guess) Logistics is hard.

Amazon might make it look easy but it really isn't (and Amazon is not available in all EU countries either!).

Logistics is more then just shipping, but also returns, repairs, availability, shipping time, shipping costs, where and how to keep stock. And this points affect each other, i.e. they might not have enough supply to sell to the whole EU market etc.

Lastly while there is a free marked in the EU if I remember correctly there are still some differences when importing things from outside into the EU depending on the country of entry. Like how to fill forms and which companies you can work with (for what prices) in given country.

loginatnine• 4 years ago

I'll copy paste a comment I made here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31096793 but I'm also guessing logistics.

They gave a IMO good overview of the difficulties of selling to a new country in a previous post :

With our supply improving, you may be wondering when you can order a laptop if you’re outside of the US and Canada. We selected and are bringing up our worldwide warehousing and fulfillment partner, which is one very key part of the equation, but it takes quite a lot more than that to enable a complete experience in each country. Picking Germany as one example, we need German language keyboards, a Type F power cable, in-box paperwork and labeling in German, localization for the Framework website, support documentation, and checkout flow, support for local payment methods, calculation of Euro prices and taxes, accounting support for German income, creation of legally sound Terms of Sale, Privacy, and Warranty policies for Germany, CE certifications, a local Authorized Representative to back up the certifications, determination of HS codes and tariffs, an Importer of Record to be able to deliver duty paid, German-language in-time-zone customer support, reverse logistics and RMA support for returns and repairs, region-specific sourcing of off the shelf memory and storage, trial builds of German laptops prior to production, and back-end ERP infrastructure to tie all of this together. That sounds like a lot, but it’s actually a drastically simplified summary.

https://frame.work/ca/en/blog/scaling-up-infrastructure

908B64B197• 4 years ago

My understanding was the single market & customs union etc should make going from 1 to N EU countries pretty easy.

Sadly, every country insist on doing everything else his own special snowflake way. There would have to be a lot more harmonization for it to be that easy.

lighttower• 4 years ago

Will it be possible to get a keyboard like the Thinkpad. FULL SIZE arrow keys. Menu button next to Right ALT. And PGUP PGDN adjacent to the arrows ?

Trackpoint is a bonus

Liskni_si3• 4 years ago

Menu button next to Right ALT. And PGUP PGDN adjacent to the arrows

Keys can easily be remapped in software, so all you really is the physical keys layout (full size arrows + two keys on either side of the up arrow) and the trackpoint. Menu or PrintScreen or whatever doesn't really matter much.

nspattak• 4 years ago

I would really like to buy one BUT I find it a little bit too expensive, especially the price difference for better CPUs I find proportionate. (i would be slightly more tempted if it was for an amd 6000 cpu, they are much better in perf/power, I hope you will reconsider in the next generation when the iGPU will be RDNA based)

pkulak2• 4 years ago

Any word on a resolution bump? We only need a few more lines for 2x support!

verall• 4 years ago

Any chance for an add-in card with an Intel NIC? I have had issues with the realtek USB-C NICs and I was hoping the 2.5GbE would be intel.

yumraj• 4 years ago

Any chance of 15”-16” in near future?

uoaei2• 4 years ago

I wondered this too, but they will need a way to be able to plug the same Mainboard into a new chassis such that the Expansion Cards work correctly, or else design a new Mainboard with increased size (or I guess longer Expansion Cards, but that seems silly).

guerby2• 4 years ago

Hi nrp

I demo-ed my frame.work laptop yesterday to https://www.matinfo-esr.fr/ which is a single buyer entity for all french universities and public research institutes (once hardware is in their catalog it's click to order for universities without administrative hassle).

They showed interest on the non obsolescence, durability and repairability aspect of frame.work since these features are part of their public service mission.

Feel free to contact me, my email is on the website listed on my HN profile

isolli• 4 years ago

Edited to add: nrp, I know this person and I vouch for them :) I'm confident that they could help you enter a sizable new market here in France.

Laurent, content de te revoir ! Et content de voir que tu te bats toujours pour les bonnes causes... Signe : un ex-collegue a la BNP ;)

akavel2• 4 years ago

Piling on the wishlist: any chances of a fanless mainboard in the future? I'm a sucker for fanless, hard for me to imagine going back...

nani8ot2• 4 years ago

I don't think this works well with x86 chips. The performance of ARM in this low power budget is unmatched, especially looking at Apple's M1. And even they need fans to sustain the clock speeds.

sargun• 4 years ago

How are you using CNC to make parts en masse in a cost effective way?

anonporridge2• 4 years ago

It looks like you currently can't order without Windows bundled. Will there be an option to order the kit without Windows for a reduced price?

garettmd• 4 years ago

There's an option to order without any OS installed

schmorptron2• 4 years ago

Wow, that's quite a price jump from the i5 to the i7 and then subsequently to the 6 core one. Could you talk a bit about the economics of having hotter / higher end chips in a notebook and whether there are other non-obvious cost increases to them? Are the higher end models "subsidizing" the lower end one, or is there motherboard / chipset upgrades that need to happen as a result?

Really like the laptop though, and it's a close contender when it's my time to upgrade... :)

hajile2• 4 years ago

You're paying quite a bit for vPro.

I'd guess that the 2 extra cores don't really make much of a difference day-to-day. If you crank up all the cores, both chips will throttle in a laptop of that size. If you are only running a couple single-threaded applications, the extra 100MHz turbo hardly makes a difference (around 2-3%).

On the flip side, the places that need/want vPro are going to be very enterprisey and don't mind spending the extra money.

sireat• 4 years ago

Please, more country availability!

I've been waiting for 12th gen Alder Lake availability and am ready to pay. However as a EU citizen from one of the Baltic states I am unable to do so.

Please, tell us that this year any EU citizen will be able to order a Framework laptop.

I could not even find which friends in which countries to ask to order Framework for me.. It used to be US then UK, and I know there are a few other ones.

Combined with a waitlist the logistics are painful.

At least I hope that signing up for the waitlist from a specific country counts as something.

mattclarkdotnet• 4 years ago

Can't you use a parcel forwarding service?

stingraycharles• 4 years ago

I was waiting for the availability of the US international keyboard for DIY builds, but I got an even better present today. I have just made my preorder, surprised to see that a 1280P CPU with 64GB RAM is very reasonably priced!

I was in the market for a MacBook Pro / max upgrades as well, mind you, so effectively I also saved a lot of money (I believe at least a $1k price difference).

I use Linux as my daily driver, super happy to see the better support here as well.

All in all, thank you for making a refreshing change in this market.

waiseristy2• 4 years ago

What style of touchpad does the device have? Is it a force sensor style (macbook), hinged (most recent thinkpads), or one-big-button (also some thinkpads had this)?

I absolutely despise the hinged touchpad on my thinkpad as you can't click unless you're pushing on the bottom half of the touchpad. A force sensor touchpad alone would make me put in an order for a framework laptop

canadaduane• 4 years ago

It is hinged.

yencabulator2• 4 years ago

I can click the framework v1 touchpad with my fingernail touching the chassis above it. Half a finger width lower the resistance is more reasonable. One finger width down from the top the feel is pretty much the same as closer to the bottom.

hajile2• 4 years ago

Notebookcheck says that the 1240p actually performs BETTER than the 1260p due to thermals. Is this true for the new Framework laptop?

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Core-i5-beats-Core-i7-Alder-La...

rochansinha• 4 years ago

Any information when it will launch in India?

angulardragon032• 4 years ago

Looks like 12th gen DIY edition is €60 more than the MSRP of the old model. Wonder if the price will come down further for the old model.

EDIT: site was down while I was checking this, the 11th Gen DIY edition is €829, so €130 cheaper than 12th gen.

nrp38• 4 years ago

We announced newly reduced pricing for the original 11th Gen Intel Core-based Framework Laptops. We've sold out of some SKUs and have limited numbers of the remaining ones, so that new reduced pricing is likely the final pricing until we run out of those.

angulardragon032• 4 years ago

Interesting! I was looking at picking one up with my next pay check, so I’ll see what’s available. Thanks!

headsoup• 4 years ago

Nice. I noticed the 'Pre-order now' button for the 12th gen DIY edition goes to the configuration page for the normal edition.

I was confused that all options had Windows installed...

You can still get to the DIY configure page through Product Story -> Pre-Order Now.

nrp38• 4 years ago

We are fixing this now!

Edit: This is fixed now.

someguy5344523• 4 years ago

Umm, right now, the pre-built page takes you to the diy page instead, even if you click on "Or check out pre-built options"

rjsw• 4 years ago

The ethernet expansion card looks good.

nrp38• 4 years ago

This was by far our most popular Expansion Card request. We've actually been working on it since before launching the original Framework Laptop. It's just a non-trivial packaging challenge, especially to land 2.5Gbit support.

Terretta2• 4 years ago

non-trivial… especially 2.5Gbit

Elsewhere in this thread:

nrp: “Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for a USB 3.1 to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don't like it any more than you do, but there are several niches in the PC peripheral space where there is no alternative to using a Realtek part.“

Oxodao• 4 years ago

There are "battery life improvement" will those be available to 1st gen Frameworks motherboard or is it hardware related ?

And do anyone know if the bug in the HDMI card preventing it to go to sleep is still a thing / need a firmware update / is hopeless ?

nrp38• 4 years ago

We have a firmware update in testing to improve shut down (S5) drain. For s0ix, we are investigating firmware paths to reduce power consumption. The card itself actually does go to into a low power state, but the USB4/TBT4 retimer stays in a higher power state. That is something we were able to fix in a combination of hardware and firmware on the new 12th Gen Intel Core systems for s0ix/Modern Standby. We're investigating paths to improve this that would work for 11th Gen as well, but nothing final yet.

ZeroCool2u• 4 years ago

Congrats on the launch! FW is on my shortlist for my next laptop.

Would you consider having someone on the team do a more in depth technical write-up of the work that went into the battery life optimization? I'd personally be very interested in reading that as a long time Linux laptop user.

baybal2• 4 years ago

Will Framework sell knockdown kits to assemblers?

motiejus• 4 years ago

Any photos of how the ethernet expansion card will look like while plugged in? Looks like it's bigger than the expansion slot.

I intend to keep it there permanently, which brings questions about durability, especially when carrying the laptop around.

nrp38• 4 years ago

It is oversized, but robust enough to keep installed (I have been for the last few months dogfooding it). We'll add more photos of it installed to the product page for it before we open sales on it to make sure folks know what they are getting into before buying.

rkagerer3• 4 years ago

As in, sticks out past the edge of the laptop?

foodstances2• 4 years ago

https://frame.work/products/ethernet-expansion-card

rgrmrts• 4 years ago

I would buy a 15/16” version of this in a heartbeat :) I really hope another chassis with a larger screen is in the cards for framework!

tomrod2• 4 years ago

I like the 13" but totally agree.

jadbox• 4 years ago

17" 4k please! (yes, I can do coding with that resolution at 120% scaling)

cowpig• 4 years ago

Right now I'm using a 17" Dell Precision which is a brick of a laptop that weighs over 3.5kg and whose battery life can be measured in minutes as my primary work machine.

I would buy a 17" framework to replace it in a heartbeat

jillesvangurp• 4 years ago

Hdpi, with a more sane aspect ratio and hdr that is suitable for graphics work would be high on my wish list.

I actually like using Darktable. And I like using it on a good screen better. So even though I have a Linux laptop that runs Darktable very nicely (even with just Intel Xe graphics), I actually do a lot of photo editing on my 8 year old imac, which has a 5K screen, fantastic contrast & colors, etc. It shows me stuff my laptop is simply incapable of showing. Darktable runs like a dog on it but at least I can see what I'm doing properly and have enough screen real estate to actually fit the tools in the sidebar on the screen without having to scroll.

I'd love to see Linux laptop that is optimal for graphics, movie editing, etc. Mediocre 1080p screens are simply not good enough anymore. Apple stopped shipping anything non hdpi years ago. Even the cheapest macbook air has a decent screen. Decent contrast, easy to calibrate, beautiful colors and excellent dynamic range. Probably best in class by any objective measure. Why can't Linux users get screens that good? It's not like Apple doesn't buy their parts from the same usual suspects in China and Korea when it comes to screens and other things you need to build a laptop.

dmix• 4 years ago

Why can't Linux users get screens that good?

The only thing stopping me from switching from MBP.

Framework is a giant step forward though. Pretty much everything I could want otherwise.

bcrosby95• 4 years ago

Yeah, my 13" laptop just died on me, and it was just too uncomfortable for me to risk buying another 13" laptop.

The Ethernet port is a big bonus for me too. Oh wells.

filmgirlcw• 4 years ago

This is exciting! I’m very seriously looking at upgrading my mainboard and repurposing the 11th Gen I’ve got now into a DIY project!

I’ve been VERY happy with my Framework and am glad to see this update.

tomrod2• 4 years ago

I'm on an 11th gen and just ordered another one a week ago.

Great daily driver!

Sebb7676• 4 years ago

Same, I ordered just a few days ago! Pity, after waiting for so long, I should've just waited a few days longer and save 70€. Still, looking forward to finally having one :)

coldtea2• 4 years ago

We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we’re happy to share that Fedora 36 works fantastically well out of the box, with full hardware functionality including WiFi and fingerprint reader support. Ubuntu 22.04 also works great after applying a couple of workarounds, and we’re working to eliminate that need.

This disclaimer -from a company that picks their hw components none the less- is cold water to Linux in the desktop as any sort of "solved" problem

arghwhat• 4 years ago

Well to be fair, no desktop experience is solved if one isn't allowed to apply adjustments for their hardware (drivers, user space tools and whatnot).

My experience on Linux certainly isn't flawless, but I have about as many issues whenever I'm handed a Windows laptop as others have trying Linux. Computers suck.

jfb• 4 years ago

I mean, Apple makes the whole stack, more or less, and I have trouble there, too. So, honestly, yeah. Software is a goddamned disaster.

throw93232• 4 years ago

It is laptop, not desktop ;)

coldtea2• 4 years ago

Desktop Linux was historically meant as opposed to server.

Plus, most actual desk tops today feature laptops.

So still a desktop use case: it's just not in "tower" or "mini-tower" or "all-in-one" form.

MetaWhirledPeas• 4 years ago

Not if you buy the mainboard and mount it in a little desktop case!

noirbot• 4 years ago

To be fair to them, _desktop_ Linux is a fair bit easier than laptop Linux. Laptops have many of the components that have been the most neglected/hardest to work with - wifi cards, bluetooth, trackpads, fingerprint readers... All all the worse because there's often less or no choice of provider for the components.

For the most part, on a full desktop, you can avoid most of the need for those, or buy a part that works better.

nrp38• 4 years ago

To be fair to Linux on the desktop, one of the major challenges is synchronization between new hardware platforms (12th Gen Intel Core), and distro cycles (22.04). We fully expect that the next point release of 22.04 will have a kernel that works well out of the box with 12th Gen. Fedora seems to more consistently be able to go out with more recent kernels. Fedora 36 with 5.17.6 works smoothly.

orangeoxidation• 4 years ago

Are distros doing too much customization?

The kernel is famously backward compatible, upgrading during a distro cycle shouldn't be a problem. Yet fedora doing so is somehow exceptional.

anon_123g987• 4 years ago

There's no such operating system as "Linux". I don't know what these "workarounds" are exactly, but if it's something like installing a driver for a fingerprint reader that's present in a standard Fedora distro, but not in a vanilla Ubuntu then I don't see the problem. Of course it won't work out of the box.

nrp38• 4 years ago

We're exploring if there is any other workaround, but it is likely that until a 22.04 point release goes out with a new kernel, it will require installing a newer kernel from Ubuntu's kernel PPA to make suspend work properly.

DeathArrow• 4 years ago

I'm wondering what's the battery life and power usage under Linux. For many laptops this is a problem.

jakamau• 4 years ago

I've had my framework laptop for about six months and I'm not really a linux adept (I basically just read online guides and bash on my keyboard until the problem fixes itself). But honestly, I genuinely enjoy using the framework laptop with Fedora.

The battery life during light(7w)-moderate(12w) usage is approximately 5 hours.

Stand-by was the real issue in my opinion (it would drain 1-2%/hour). I got around this issue by setting up a swap partition and forcing hibernation after 30 minutes of sleep standby.

Apparently there are some new tweaks that were added to improve standby, but I am happy with where I am and don't want to change anything, so I can't speak to their efficacy.

jklinger410• 4 years ago

Had this issue with System76, which offers NVIDIA cards that suck on Linux, and various hardware that requires firmware not in the linux kernel or anywhere else, where you have to install and update that firmware separately (like windows).

All they make are Linux computers and they couldn't/didn't/wouldn't for some reason produce a laptop that just natively worked.

Accacin• 4 years ago

Recently I built a new PC, and after having Nvidia driver issues for years on my old PC, I decided I'd go AMD instead.

After at least 10 years using Linux, I'm back to Windows.

The main issue I had was a very intermittent flicker on my screen when I'm on 144Hz. This happened on Wayland and X11. Almost every single distribution had this issue; OpenSUSE, Fedora, Arch (and derivatives), Debian, PopOS.

The only distribution where this wasn't a problem was Ubuntu which worked great for a while, but I updated and had a few issues. Also, realised after briefly trying other distributions that Snaps were really slow, so I just couldn't stay with Ubuntu. I tried disabling Snaps, but then the store broke and the non-snap store kept crashing (I generally install software via terminal but it's nice to browse and see what's out there occasionally).

Oddly, I've found Windows 11 mostly okay - at least I have no flicker at 144Hz.

post_break4• 4 years ago

Will board schematics be available for repairs? Something Louis has been asking for.

nrp38• 4 years ago

We recently released the subset of schematics that we were able to. Louis did a recent video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU

post_break4• 4 years ago

When you say able to, do you mean a vendor is holding you back from releasing more? No problem if you can't answer. Sorry my question was for this new laptop, I did see you guys released the one for the previous one which is awesome.

yuters• 4 years ago

I'm still waiting for more keyboards option on a DIY kit in North America. Seems like a waste for a modular laptop that you can't order one with no keyboard. You have to buy a separate keyboard in the marketplace and throw away the english one.

skywal_l• 4 years ago

I would like to see a 75 keyboard like the HP Envy 13 x360 with a bar of keys with Home/PageUp/PageDown/End.

5-• 4 years ago

congrats on the update!

framework is a great laptop with macbook-like chassis.

all that's needed to make me and a vocal minority happy is an alternative thinkpad-like chassis.

Markoff2• 4 years ago

more like 7 row thinkpad keyboard for starters

justin664• 4 years ago

We’ve redesigned our lid assembly for significantly improved rigidity

They should make this part available to existing users as a warranty replacement. It sounds like they've addressed a common complaint on their support forums.

The lid that flops over because of the hinge's weakness, and the absurd excuses made by company personnel (they claim it was designed this way "to accommodate opening the laptop with one hand," as if the people who open a laptop with one hand do not need the lid to stay upright) has been a great disappointment for me with this laptop. It is a design defect, not a feature, for the hinge to be this weak.

edit: apparently they're talking about this, so I guess we're stuck with the weak hinge:

https://frame.work/products/top-cover-cnc

nrp38• 4 years ago

If the lid drops when the laptop is stationary, the hinge is out of spec and we'll send you a replacement through our support channel.

justin664• 4 years ago

I'll look into that. Thanks!

theferalrobot• 4 years ago

What if our replacement hinges are dropping when stationary too?

coder5432• 4 years ago

My framework laptop had no issues with the hinge whatsoever. It honestly might have been a little too stiff for my tastes, but it functioned perfectly, and the screen never budged without me moving it intentionally. (Past tense is because I recently sold it as I was using my M1 MBA way more often, mainly due to how long the framework laptop took to come out of sleep mode by comparison. This isn't really a slight against Framework... Apple just did an unreasonably good job with M1 in some areas.)

I would not say the hinge issues have been a "common" complaint. They've been the most common complaint that I've seen on Reddit, but still rare, especially once you factor in that people usually only go online to complain, and anyone with the hinge issue isn't going to hesitate, since it would be understandably annoying.

justin664• 4 years ago

I would not say the hinge issues have been a "common" complaint. They've been the most common that I've seen

Thanks for sharing your insight, you've really clarified things. Ahem.

especially once you factor in that people usually only go online to complain.

I've never complained about it before on their forums because once a few people let the company know about the defect, and the company gives their lame excuse for why they've implemented such a weak hinge (one handed opening!), there is no point.

It actually is nice to hear that your hinge wasn't weak as that might mean the warranty replacement nrp mentioned is worth doing. I do hope - the laptop has some nice features otherwise.

BaseballPhysics• 4 years ago

I have to admit, after roughly 9 months of use, while initially I didn't have issues with the hinge, I've definitely noticed the display tends to flop around when I'm picking up and moving the laptop, or when riding the bus where the laptop is shifting around. For context, my previous laptop was a 5th gen X1 Carbon and I never had that issue with that machine.

I also can't shake the feeling that the hinge has loosened up a bit, but that's purely anecdotal.

My guess is this is both a combination of a slightly less stiff hinge combined with the taller 3:2 display, which leads to more torque being applied to the hinge when the laptop is moving around.

foodstances2• 4 years ago

They upgraded the hinges at some point during manufacturing to address the screen falling down during light movement:

https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001

I believe this upgraded lid assembly is to address the screen wobbling during typing. It's a very thin lid and has a lot of flex, so the tighter hinge just transfers the force into the lid, causing it to wobble. Hopefully this will be eliminated with this upgraded lid.

agomez314• 4 years ago

Exciting stuff! Great job, y'all. Any chance RISC-V architectures will be on a Framework Laptop one day?

seanw444• 4 years ago

Hopefully after AMD finally comes out. That would be awesome. A truly open system.

alkaloid• 4 years ago

I believe so much in this project -- I was an early adopter but couldn't figure out a use case for the laptop, so have been lurking, waiting on sweeter and sweeter upgrades . . . this may fit the bill!

nagisa• 4 years ago

Could you elaborate on why realtek was chosen for the ethernet expansion card? It does tend to have a pretty bad rep, with one of the recent documentations being https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.h...

whazor• 4 years ago

Seems to be that the realtek driver issues are mostly for Mac users, which will not be really an issue for Framework users.

philliphaydon2• 4 years ago

I have had many issues with Realtek over the years causing windows to wake. Just changing the network card in my laptop to Intel causes that issue to go away. I won’t buy a motherboard for my desktop if it’s Realtek.

yabones• 4 years ago

As a long-time Linux user, every time I hear Realtek or see a rtlxxxx driver the blood drains from my head. Just a constant nightmare of crashy firmware and dkms hell. Maybe things have gotten better in the last couple years, but I've steered clear every time I've had the chance.

nfriedly3• 4 years ago

FWIW, I just had a realtek USB ethernet adapter take down my network twice last week when I was trying out with an Android tablet.

It's part of a powered USB hub, and it works fine while the tablet is connected, but after disconnecting the tablet, the ethernet controller stays active, and about half an hour later my entire home network stops working. I had to disconnect the realtek adapter and reboot my network switch each time.

So, their problems are not entirely limited to mac.

nrp38• 4 years ago

Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for a USB 3.1 to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don't like it any more than you do, but there are several niches in the PC peripheral space where there is no alternative to using a Realtek part.

mrpippy• 4 years ago

How about Aquantia?

nfriedly3• 4 years ago

What about a Thunderbolt connection and a PCIe ethernet adapter - could that work?

jmakov• 4 years ago

Ryzen?

rowanG077• 4 years ago

How are the thermals on these chips? 11th gen and prior was bad enough with basically all laptops having significant throttling issues. Is that fixed now on the 12th gen? I bought an XPS 13 last year and even with extensive modding and disabling turbo boost it still throttles the iGPU.

corderop• 4 years ago

I'm pretty excited about this Intel P chips of the 12th generation. It's seems they are going to be a good competitor for M1 for the Linux world. At least, benchmarks show good numbers, we'll see.

neurostimulant• 4 years ago

The Ethernet Expansion Card seems to be using USB type C connector. Can it works on non Framework computers?

Also, anyone has recommendation for great affordable router with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports for home lab setup? I've been searching for one but it seems only gaming routers include these ports. I prefer something more enterprisy (lots of options to tinker with like mikrotik or pfsense), but those usually don't come with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports, instead they (the affordable ones) have plenty of 1 gigabit ethernet ports and a single sfp+ port. Or should I bite the bullet and go full sfp+ for home lab setup?

nrp38• 4 years ago

Yep! It will work as a normal USB-C Ethernet adapter, but due to the form factor, there is risk that you can apply an excessive amount of torque to a normal USB-C receptacle if the Ethernet cable gets pulled.

pedrocr3• 4 years ago

It doesn't seem like a great option compared to a normal USB-C or A ethernet dongle because of that. Those are slim enough that they're basically a continuation of the ethernet cable and as a benefit also unplug when yanked. This one doesn't even fit within the normal adapter form factor of the framework.

maz-• 4 years ago

Really happy to see this, although I must've bought one of the last Gen 11 Frameworks at full price (literally 2 days ago ).

zeagle• 4 years ago

I would contact them and ask them to adjust the price. You are within the return window and it is cheap goodwill.

paskozdilar• 4 years ago

Do Frameworks laptop work without proprietary software/firmware/whateverware?

If you can run a 100% free software GNU/Linux distribution such as Trisquel on Framework laptops, that would be a definite buy for me.

qboltz• 4 years ago

They do, I run GNU Guix but you have to buy a wifi card that's free software compatible, which must be bought somewhere else.

https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/wireless-n-dual-band-...

varispeed3• 4 years ago

When there a new laptop release with an Intel CPU, the topic of fans is rarely talked. How is the Framework doing when it comes to heat? I decided that I will no longer buy a laptop that whirls fans whenever you do something more resource intensive or even simply open an app. I have fairly modern XPS 15 and the fan noise is just unbearable. It puts me off coming near the laptop. So it looks like I'll have to bite the bullet and buy M1/M2 if there is going to be a way to run Linux reliably.

intsunny• 4 years ago

I'd really wish for an AMD motherboard.

The new AMD chips with the RDNA2 is a Linux user's dream. The open source support is incredible.

cyber_kinetist• 4 years ago

I thought that the latest Alder Lake CPUs pretty much catched up with AMD in terms of general performance nowadays. And Intel's iGPU support was rock solid even before AMD.

cosmiccatnap2• 4 years ago

Not really no. The power draw and heat on these chips are nearly 3x the AMD variant.

fyrn-• 4 years ago

Th IGPU is substantially better in the new RDNA2 chips, also power draw.

thrownaway561• 4 years ago

why am going to pay $1100 for an i5/8gb/265ssd when I can pay $700 for a i5/12gb/1tbHDD. This whole thing reminds me of the PANDA project from early 2000s and you all know how well that project worked out.

Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle them and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these type of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked into a single vendor. Unless other vendors get onboard and you have competition, you are at the mercy of the single vendor's pricing and existence. How good is an upgradeable laptop when the vendor goes out of business and you can't buy parts?

https://frame.work/products/laptop-12-gen-intel/configuratio...

https://www.costco.com/hp-17.3%22-laptop---11th-intel-core-i...

coldpie• 4 years ago

Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle them and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these type of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked into a single vendor. How good is an upgradeable laptop when the vendor goes out of business and you can't buy parts?

I agree with your skepticism. But, I don't agree that it has to be this way. Framework is giving another model a chance, and yeah, it may fail. But Frameworks are no /more/ disposable than any other laptop, so I guess I don't see a downside to at least giving it a shot if it's at an acceptable price and has a desirable feature set. You're right that the commodity hardware is cheaper, but I guess I can live with paying a bit more to try something else out and support an alternate model.

bl4ckneon• 4 years ago

Well first off the laptop you linked is an 11th gen cpu vs the frame work which just upgraded to a 12 gen. The framework isn't an amazing value dollar for dollar, spec for spec. That is not why you buy one though...

Is all about the upgradability, the open source aspect, sustainability, etc. Good luck if you want to open your Lenovo laptop and want to get it warrentyed for anything.

kitsunesoba• 4 years ago

Having used a laptop similar to that linked HP in past and now comparing spec sheets, I don’t really think it’s in the same class as the framework laptop at all.

Compared to the framework, the HP’s:

- CPU is a generation behind

- Screen has low PPI (less sharp), very low brightness, and is probably a TN panel, meaning colors will be more dull

- HDD which is a lot slower than an SSD anyway is 5400RPM, which is slow even for an HDD

- Battery is 14Wh smaller

- Webcam is 720p instead of 1080p

- Bluetooth and wifi is a whole major version behind

- Charging port is one of those old terrible barrel jacks that gets loose quickly

And the build quality is most assuredly not in the same universe. Laptops as cheap as this HP are built on razor thin margins, which means that manufacturers are cutting costs wherever possible. This gets you things like creaky flexy cases, loose wobbly hinges, chintzy keyboards, bad trackpads, and oddball bargain basement components with less than amazing performance.

In short it will be a lot less pleasant to use, even ignoring that huge gaps in the spec sheet. Models from other manufacturers that would be more comparable to the framework in specs and fit and finish are the M1 MacBook Air/Pro, Dell XPS 13, and Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon.

Brian_K_White2• 4 years ago

Other vendors are free to produce compatible parts. They publish physical dimensions and cad files on github.

Everything about this is as interoperable as possible, both physical and software.

Maybe no other vendor will produce a motherboard or keyboard, but it's not Framework's fault.

Second, The closest competing product to Framework is Lenovo not HP. (Despite the fact they look like a Mac's aluminum body, huge buttonless touchpad and black chicklet keys, with a Surface's screen aspect ratio.)

HP's customer is someone who would like a Surface or Mac but doesn't have that kind of cash, or just cares more about a distinctive look that isn't gamer.

Here's HP's customer: I got my mom a top of the line maxxed out HP because she will never care about upgrades or repairs or Linux or raw power, but she does care about the blingy rich bronze look, and I care enough to steer her away from Surface and Mac even though I don't care about the cost. That's HP's customer.

I WAS actually able to replace the battery in her previous Spectre (the sweet thin one with the funky hinges that looked like hoop earrings or wedding bands) to give it to my niece when I updated mom, but HP did not make that easy.

HP are premium-looking Chromebooks that run Windows.

Framework are user-serviceable open platform Lenovos.

"Why would I spend..." You clearly wouldn't, so don't. But I would. Why? goes like this:

I don't particularly care too much about AMD vs Intel, but a lot of people are asking for an AMD cpu motherboard.

Let's say Framework did not make a an AMD motherboard, but someome else did. Let's say that the only way to get a Framework was to either buy a whole Framework including an Intel mainboard I don't want, PLUS the 3rd party motherboard for $500 or whatever it is. I would rather do that, because I want that open platform. First, Framework would not make me buy the entire machine, they would let me buy everything but the main oard. But even if they didn't, that mainboard I didn't want is actually useable all by itself like a 900 horsepower raspberry pi. Or I could sell it, because it's useful to anyone else too. Or I could keep it as a backup in case I damage my prefferred board. That platform which makes all kinds of options possible, is valuable to me.

No one yet makes any such 3rd party mainboard, but the platform at least allows for it and makes it possible vs not-possible. I want that. That is valuable to me. I will pay a lot for that.

sryie7• 4 years ago

I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years. I am loving it so far. I run Ubuntu 22.04 daily and have not had any issues with battery life or the lid (but I do typically leave it plugged in during lunch and overnight). The expansion cards are brilliant and the keyboard is comparable to my old t-series. The aspect ratio is great for coding and I'm happy to see upgradeability is being taken seriously as promised. If I can get 5-10 years out of it like my old ThinkPads (all while upgrading piecewise along the way) I will be a fan for life.

prohobo• 4 years ago

I heard the keyboard is good, but do you mean the newer T-series chiclet keyboards?

sryie7• 4 years ago

Yes, I owned a t430 (and also a yoga 14) so the keys on the framework are a little wider. I can still feel the keypresses and they are a little "softer" and quieter. I use vim frequently so I do still miss the trackpoint and buttons at the top of the touchpad but it hasn't been as big of a problem as I anticipated. I am also still adjusting to the cntrl/fn placement but I think a lot of people swapped that in the bios anyways so it might be normal for others.

Goronmon• 4 years ago

I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years.

I get excited about different laptops occasionally...and then I remember that I won't have a trackpoint if I switch to a different brand, and I get disappointed. Literally happens every few months.

pauke2• 4 years ago

Business class Dells and HPs have one too. Named differently because TM but good enough.

sryie7• 4 years ago

Yep, the trackpoint (and buttons on top of the touchpad) are huge. I am a heavy vim user so those were extremely convenient but I have been trying to get comfortable with tap to click because that seems to be the way laptop manufacturers have headed (and I don't want my efficiency to suddenly collapse when I am put behind any other brand of computer). I am also still holding out some small hope that someone will come up with a way to swap it in to a framework laptop but I'm not holding my breath.

pedrocr3• 4 years ago

Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards. I'd take a stupid one without touchpad at all as I just disable it anyway. That shouldn't be too hard, it's mostly getting the plastic right and adapting the connector to the motherboard.

spaniard892772• 4 years ago

We're on the same boat. IDK what to do honestly. Hope someone makes a keyboard with trackpoint for the framework.

tluyben2• 4 years ago

That's why I have high hopes for (something like) the Frame.work; it should be possible to just get another keyboard 'part' which actually does have a trackpoint (and even no trackpad but other stuff theoretically). Someone, either Frame.work themselves or someone else needs to make it, but at least it's possible.

Edit: I would pay for such a keyboard for the Frame.work; it would actually very much stimulate me to buy one! I really hope to see crowdfunding from people who just make a Frame.work part.

ddoolin• 4 years ago

I genuinely had no idea people still used those, or that they were still made with those.

KerrickStaley• 4 years ago

The Trackpoint seems redundant to me because I can manipulate the trackpad with my thumb without leaving the home row, and for me it's faster and more comfortable than a Trackpoint.

Using your thumb to control the trackpad works better on Mac laptops because the Force Touch trackpad allows you to press anywhere to click. Most PC laptops have a "diving board" click mechanism which means it gets progressively harder to click the further you are from the bottom, and clicking near the top is impossible. Also, Mac laptops position the top of the trackpad closer to the keyboard than other laptops I've seen.

You can use tap-to-click as a work-around for being unable to click the top of the trackpad, but I find tap-to-click less usable for other reasons.

NikolaNovak5• 4 years ago

Same. Everytime I get excited about Framework, Syste7m6, etc... and then get sad.

I fully understand I'm a vanishing minority, But trackpoint is such a productivity booster for me, and makes such amazing use of space in a laptop format, that it's a must-have (and again, I fully understand that those who don't use Trackpoint will have no comprehension of what am I going on about; I'm a grouchy quirky old man :).

Then there's other little things that may or may not be trackpad related - small function keys, lack of standard home/end/insert/del/pgup/pgdown cluster, and the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :)

pbhjpbhj• 4 years ago

Won't fix one child-comment on quality, but is there a TP keyboard that would physically fit the hole in the framework. A physical shim would be easy easier; I'm assuming (possibly wrongly) that they connect via an internal USB connection?

riedel• 4 years ago

I am posting the same thing every time framework pops up on HN. I hope the nudging will do it's work eventually.

Meanwhile I am wondering why there aren't many third party mods for the framework around. Would it be feasible to design a trackpoint keyboard (if you figure out how to put it in the profile) ? Does it connect via USB or alike internally?

s0rce• 4 years ago

I loved the TrackPoint and still miss it occasionally, had one on my T41p from IBM, however, I've been really happy with my Macbook (2011 Air and 2020 M1 Pro) trackpad, its lightyears ahead of any other ones I used on PC laptops and just works seamlessly. My Dell laptop from work the trackpad is garbage.

kikoreis• 4 years ago

I thought it was just me!!!

ElijahLynn4• 4 years ago

Same! And the first thing I did was check the Framework marketplace for a keyboard replacement with a touchstick/trackpoint. I am hoping we can just pop a ThinkPad keyboard in it with a mod.

There is a discussion here https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026....

zumu2• 4 years ago

Short aside: any tips for becoming a trackpoint user?

I find it much more comfortable than the trackpad, but my curosr always seems so slow when it's not going way too fast. Is there special software tweaking I need?

EDIT: I forgot to mention I'm on Linux

favadi2• 4 years ago

Do you have any problem with resolution, screen scaling? I think it requires 1.5x scaling, which often cause screen tearing and artifacts on Linux.

rcthompson2• 4 years ago

I run at 2x scaling and then set the text scaling factor to .85, so the effective text scaling becomes 1.7, and I avoid the issues with non-integer scaling in Wayland.

sryie7• 4 years ago

Oh, good point. Yes, my resolution is 2256x1504 and found the 1x too small so I have to scale it up. I haven't had any issues but I also typically do lower level and back end type work (occasional front end when needed). I also haven't done any gaming with the laptop (except some minor experimentation with Godot). If you are a designer or serious artist I recommend at least trying out your os with fractional scaling first.

reaperducer2• 4 years ago

have not had any issues with battery life

Looks like it can be charged from any USB-C port you install in it.

Much better than my work-assigned ThinkPad, which only allows charging through one specific port. As if everyone on the planet has their wall plug in the same location.

sryie7• 4 years ago

Yeah, that is a nice feature. I put USB c ports on both sides so I can plug it in based on where an outlet is relative to where I'm sitting.

efsavage• 4 years ago

The aspect ratio is great for coding

If I ever need to buy a laptop this would be a huge feature for me, I would love if they still made 4:3 displays for desktops, it's so much better for the triple-wide setup I prefer, especially on the sides.

ProZsolt• 4 years ago

Curved ultrawide is the way to go. I can run three apps side-by-side on my a 38" Dell.

xur174• 4 years ago

and the keyboard is comparable to my old t-series.

Really happy to hear this bit since it's my main concern when buying a new laptop. My 2 other questions - how long does the battery last, and how is overall build quality?

sryie7• 4 years ago

I am happy with the build quality so far. It feels sturdy and lightweight. The laptop is noticeably lighter and thinner than my old ThinkPad. With the lid open it is about the same height as my 14 inch but there is more vertical screen real estate because there is less black around the display area. I have read about issues with the hinges but I think this has been fixed now. I have not had hinge issues. I opened up the laptop to take a look inside when I first got it and everything came apart and went back together nicely (my only surprise was one screw does not come out all the way by design which I had to Google about). The expansion slots are maybe a little too sturdy and require a good amount of force to remove.

For battery life I think an average user can expect 5 to 6 hours. I use mine for about 5 hours with Firefox (around 10-20 tabs) and a few terminal processes and will still have about 20% remaining.

CalRobert• 4 years ago

Thank you for making an upgrade kit! Very happy with the Framework I bought 2 months ago but seeing options like this - https://frame.work/gb/en/products/12-gen-intel-upgrade-kit - is nice.

noveltyaccount3• 4 years ago

This is so amazing. If I had a 10th or 11th gen i7 laptop, no way I'd rush out and buy a new laptop for two or three grand. But a new mainboard for $600? Yeah, that's an annual upgrade train I can get on!

Sebb7676• 4 years ago

Given that one of their stated targets is sustainability, this sounds like Jevons paradox [0]. This might be averted a bit, though, if you reuse the old mainboards for things like a homeserver.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

Pasorrijer• 4 years ago

Any plans for discrete graphics?

pc2g4d• 4 years ago

I came here wondering the same thing. I guess I could just get the eGPU I've tossed around for a while?

pizza2342• 4 years ago

Alder Lake is still not fully supported by Linux (improvements are coming with v5.18¹, which is not stable yet, and it will take a while to be released into several linux distros (at least the Ubuntu based)).

It's a shame, because it would have been a great moment to offer an AMD alternative.

¹=https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/intel-thread-director-c...

howinteresting2• 4 years ago

Think most distros have backported the Alder Lake patches to their kernels.

smoldesu3• 4 years ago

Alder Lake works just fine on Linux, it's only Thread Director which is missing. Not that these machines would really even need it, the current CPU prioritization code seems to work surprisingly well.

ripley12• 4 years ago

Things are fine on Linux even without Thread Director support. I've been running Fedora 36 (kernel v5.17) on a 12900K for a few months now without any noticeable issues.

pizza2342• 4 years ago

According to the article above, Linux pre-5.18 will mostly choose P(erformance) cores.

On a desktop context, this may go unnoticed (so, in your cases like yours, it's not a problem at all), however, in a laptop, it will make the CPU inefficient, defeating the point of the Alder Lake design.

jai_• 4 years ago

Does anyone know if the Framework team plan to offer an ARM based mainboard?

I'm honestly not even sure that there are any good ARM based SoCs to make a laptop mainboard from, but given what we've seen from Apple's development of their iPhone chips being integrated into laptop and desktop, I wonder if something similar could be done with other existing ARM CPUs from Samsung or Nvidia?

wmf• 4 years ago

I doubt they'll offer ARM, but the RK3588 is designed for laptops and not embarrassingly slow (about 3x the performance of an RPi 4).

CameronNemo2• 4 years ago

The mt8192 is faster than the rk3588 and already shipping in Chromebooks. Plenty of activity on the linux-mediatek mailing list to mainline support for the currently shipping Chromebooks.

mt8195 Chromebooks should appear soon too, and they are even faster than the mt8192. Mainlining activity is also occurring for this SoC.

CameronNemo2• 4 years ago

Do any ARM SoCs support USB4 (apart from Apple Silicon)? IIRC that is the main reason they cited for not shipping AMD boards.

jarbus• 4 years ago

I'm also interested in this, mainly for the battery life improvements.

noveltyaccount3• 4 years ago

Framework team, I know you hang out here... I'd love a touchscreen+stylus digitizer model with 360° hinge. My Lenovo yoga need a replacement!

freemint2• 4 years ago

Digitizers are really expensive. I am not sure if Framework is big enough to handle this. Just buy a snall wacom tablet and put it next to the laptop that also works.

noveltyaccount3• 4 years ago

That is definitely not the same thing as being able to reach up & touch the display, or flip the display 360 degrees into "tablet mode" :) Maybe I'm a minority in liking a laptop to be able to do those kinds of things.

BirAdam• 4 years ago

Why oh why does every decent laptop have a 1080p screen? Apparently, if I want something other than 1080p I either buy a MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy something overpriced and often terrible in every other way?

Terretta2• 4 years ago

I either buy a MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy something overpriced and often terrible in every other way?

So it’s not really a tax then, it’s a quality cost.

30944836• 4 years ago

Because Linux's support for HiDPI (specifically, fractional scaling) is limited.

jwcooper• 4 years ago

This laptop has a 2256x1504 screen. The webcam is 1080p.

nrp38• 4 years ago

The Framework Laptop's display is 2256x1504.

cebert• 4 years ago

I’m excited about Framework Laptops but am holding out for them to release and AMD-based model. I have no interest in supporting Intel.

klaas-• 4 years ago

Any news about lvfs support from framework?

moderation• 4 years ago

Haven't been able to find anything beyond his Jan 6 2022 tweet [0]. No response in the forums for this question [1] from 4 days ago. Frustrating to not be able to upgrade BIOS for Linux users without resorting to Windows or replacing boot loaders

0. https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/147913722834957517...

1. https://community.frame.work/t/lvfs-3-07-bios-availability/1...

kieranl2• 4 years ago

We have LVFS updates in lvfs testing but there is a bios capsule update bug that wipes the boot entries on update. Feedback from 3.07 was that some distros fail to boot after the update because they do not put a efi loader in the fallback path of the ESP partition. So we are hesitant to enable LVFS on 11th gen due to this issue. The code that handles this runs from the previous bios, so we cannot fix this in the capsule. We do offer a EFI update which you can use without booting into windows. https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/framework-laptop-bios...

canuckintime• 4 years ago

I'm waiting on alternate screen options. The 3K2K OLED screen on the HP Specter X360[1] would be a great highend option for me.

Framework is suggesting many customisable options but the wifi antenna is behind the screen so it's not a seamless transition. I would be interested in a screenless framework (with keyboard or just the guts) if they simplify wifi.

So a WiFi module or Cellular module would be a definite buy

[1] https://www.theverge.com/22264792/hp-spectre-x360-14-laptop-...

seltzered_• 4 years ago

I'm waiting for a tablet design. I use a 3k2k lcd touchscreen on the HP Elite X2 tablet and while it's a more repairable design compared to a MacBook or surface, would love something with a bit more modularity to add a larger battery or modify the casing (see https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/tcwep0... )

Decabytes• 4 years ago

I hope that if Framework continues to be successful they can start dictating more changes to the manufacturers of the components to make the components easier to integrate into the laptop design. For example, a standard size for Mobos so that makes it easier to integrate AMD/Intel processors

4ggr02• 4 years ago

I'm now waiting for over a year for this laptop to be available in my country.

Would still really like to order one, but my patience is running out, don't have a laptop currently.

EDIT: I sound very pissed off. I know that it's hard to ship to lots of countries, it's just frustrating for me to not even have an estimation. Will I be able to buy it in 3 or 6 months? Or does it take another year? no idea.

leodriesch• 4 years ago

If you're fine with import tax and an American keyboard, there are services [0] that provide you with an American address and send any packets that arrive there to you via international shipping.

[0] https://www.myus.com/

4ggr02• 4 years ago

I even want an US-Layout, so that's fine.

Wouldn't even have to buy it from the US. Framework sells their laptops in Germany, which is right next to me.

But that means that I have to ship the laptop back to Germany for warranty-related stuff etc.

hda23• 4 years ago

If you're fine with import tax and an American keyboard

I never understood this. Why don't companies offer international keyboards in their online american store? It should be especially easy for framework to do this since they already customize their offers/sell kits.

hda23• 4 years ago

Facing the same problem.

When I first read about this laptop, I immediately jumped to preorder it but found that they aren't sold to people like me. The same happened again when I read this article. Your comment reminded me why I still have one.

The thing is that I'm also starting to reconsider buying one now. I know they're small and barely able to keep up with their local markets, but competitors are starting to notice. I as a non-american would much rather buy from a international competitor who doesn't treat me like a lesser citizen if they can match Framework's level of openness and modularity. Once I buy into their ecosystem, I doubt I'll reconsider framework again. I imagine a significant portion of framework's underserved international market in this position.

I truly wish all the success to the framework team. I just hope, for their sake, that they manage to address international demand before they lose it to their competitors.

petilon4• 4 years ago

Still no retina display option. Steve Jobs made the right call over a decade ago... the only scaling that looks good after 100% is 200%. Any in-between scaling will have display artifacts.

This laptop has 150% scaling. What sort of display artifacts can you expect because of this? Go to a web page with a grid, with 1-pixel horizontal grid lines. Even though all lines are set to 1-pixel, some lines will appear thicker than others.

I blame Microsoft for this mess. Windows supports in-between resolutions (with display artifacts), and hardware manufacturers therefore manufacture in-between resolutions. Framework laptop is limited to what the display manufacturers put out.

cowtools5• 4 years ago

besides the fact that "retina display" is a marketing term invented by Apple, I don't really see what the big deal is. I have pretty good vision and I don't notice individual pixels on my 1080p screen. More pixels means more load on the GPU.

petilon4• 4 years ago

It is different from person to person. I notice pixels on 13-inch 1080p screens. I can't imagine using a display that is not 200% scaling. Even 300% scaling has display artifacts.

hit8run6• 4 years ago

1080p !?! Wow I didn’t know that there are professionals out there using such a shitty resolution. You are definitely not the target audience for high quality hardware then I guess.

erikpukinskis• 4 years ago

Same. I have an old school 2013 MBA and a fresh MBP for work and I don’t really notice the difference.

Of course I can _see_ the difference. The MBP looks really nice. But when I sit down to code or watch a movie on the MBA, I have pretty much the same experience as I do on my work machine.

arinlen4• 4 years ago

I have pretty good vision and I don't notice individual pixels on my 1080p screen.

1080p doesn't mean much if you leave out the screen's pixel density. There's a world of difference between a smartphone with a 5' 1080p screen and a 24' monitor with a 1080p screen.

PragmaticPulp• 4 years ago

For some people, High-DPI displays are the type of upgrade that you don't notice until you've been using it for a while and have to switch back to the old technology.

I was also fine with lower resolutions for years because that was the only option. After using high-DPI displays for a couple years, I can't stand working on old low-DPI monitors for long periods of time. It's similar to how we were all happy with our mechanical HDD computers for years, but after using an SSD-based machine for a few months you can never go back to slow HDD-based machines.

It's not about seeing individual pixels. It's about the text clarity and reduced fatigue after reading text all day.

zionic• 4 years ago

I have pretty good vision and I don't notice individual pixels on my 1080p screen.

For a 24" 1080p monitor in typical desktop configuration I get screen-door-effect. I can clearly see the black grid lines between pixels.

Also, if you can see aliasing/stair-stepping on this test then your eyes could benefit from higher resolution:

https://www.testufo.com/aliasing-visibility#foreground=fffff...

brandonmenc• 4 years ago

I've been on an LG Ultrafine 5k for a year and I consider anything less to be borderline unusable.

I have pretty good vision

My vision is terrible. Maybe the relationship works the other way around?

ProAm2• 4 years ago

It also doesn't have a touchbar and has an excessive amount of ports!

whycombagator• 4 years ago

Just like the new MBPs!

Rebelgecko• 4 years ago

Framework laptop actual has fewer ports than MBPs (although they're configurable which is neat, with the caveat that some like expansion ports HDMI are a big drain on battery life, even when inactive)

pkulak2• 4 years ago

It's possible for an OS to support fractional scaling properly; just tell applications to render their windows 1.5 times larger, map the inputs properly, and turn off font anti-aliasing. The problem is that it requires every app to be updated, which hasn't happened everywhere yet. Android and iOS, for example, do it perfectly. So does ChromeOS.

arinlen4• 4 years ago

(...) just tell applications to render their windows 1.5 times larger, map the inputs properly, and turn off font anti-aliasing.

Doesn't disabling anti-aliasing make things look worse? Unintentional and random jagged lines never look right.

favadi2• 4 years ago

Sadly, Linux doesn't support fractional scaling properly. This is a show stopper for me.

tadfisher• 4 years ago

Even Android maps "1dp" to a non-integer number of pixels on most displays.

It looks "perfect" because of a combination of anti-aliasing and high density. But zoom in on a repeating pattern of 1dp lines, and you will see that some are aliased and some are not if your display's density is not an integer multiple of 160dpi (mdpi).

But Android can do this everywhere because everything draws to a Skia canvas under the hood (well, HWComposer/SurfaceFlinger, but basically Skia). Desktop operating systems don't have the same luxury. MacOS and Gnome render at 2x and downscale the entire frame, which produces decent results on high-density displays but look blurry otherwise. I have no idea what Windows does but it sounds like it's a mess.

Kototama• 4 years ago

Maybe you can accept that no project is perfect, specially young projects and that the exceptional effort they put to have the laptop modular are a big benefits for the environment and having less resource consumption, which is maybe, maybe, more important than a retina display?

giantrobot• 4 years ago

The environmental benefit of a laptop with modular components is debatable at best and negligible at worst. At the scale of the Framework laptop's production it's meaningless.

As for the display, for a laptop supposedly intended to last years, every human interface component should be the best available option. The ergonomics are important for a long lived device. It shouldn't become problematic just because the owner aged. Otherwise the laptop ends up the same as any other where the owner tosses it after it becomes uncomfortable to use. All the benefits of modularity are lost if it ends up in a landfill.

2OEH8eoCRo0• 4 years ago

That's weird to nitpick. That's a software issue not a display issue.

daemontus• 4 years ago

A gentle reminder that every retina MacBook has been shipping with fractional scaling as default for years now (and it's not even 1.5). Sure, you can put it back into 2x if you want to. But you can do the same on a Framework, and then you get... wait for it... almost the same vertical resolution as a 2x 13" MB Pro (93% to be exact). If you absolutely need more space and a 2x scaling, there is a large amount of 4K 13"/14" laptops that are more than happy to fill that niche. Free market is your friend :)

So the argument that Windows is somehow responsible for the death of perfect 2x scaling is a bit exaggerated. People just want more space and anti-aliasing is mostly good enough so that no one cares.

hinkley2• 4 years ago

I run one monitor at 1.5:1, but it also offers me 1.2766:1, (2160->1692) which is a truly bizarre configuration. It's right at the edge of what I can read comfortably. I don't think it looks particularly fuzzy, I mostly don't use it because I don't like the idea of using such a funky resolution. It feels like it will be problematic, in ways 1.5 won't.

petilon4• 4 years ago

every retina MacBook has been shipping with fractional scaling as default for years now

I have a MacBook and I don't see the kind of display artifacts that I mentioned (grid lines set to same pixel width appearing to have different widths) on a MacBook. Why is that? I have also tried the same test on nearly every Windows laptop at BestBuy, and every Windows laptop that does not have scaling set to either 100% or 200% has this artifact. Even 300% scaling has this artifact. What is Apple's magic that Microsoft has not been able to replicate?

ayushnix• 4 years ago

A gentle reminder that every retina MacBook has been shipping with fractional scaling as default for years now (and it's not even 1.5).

You're saying MacOS deliberately uses fractional scaling by default on the 14 inch and 16 inch MBP models, the iMac, Studio Display, and the Pro Display XDR, even though all of them have a PPI that's deliberately meant for integer scaling? If that's true (which I really doubt), it would be extremely counterproductive, to say the least.

The M1 Air and the 13 inch MBP are the only Macs that don't have a suitable PPI for integer scaling.

hinkley2• 4 years ago

Using an external monitor with OS X, you're often stuck with those in-between sizes if you don't either have hawkeyes or enjoy seeing super-crisp 1080p resolution taking up half of your desk, which is a waste of space.

I'm mostly not going to be looking at a 1 pixel wide line at 4k on a 27" monitor. At 32" it might be debatable. Above that you're stacking them oddly (top+bottom, one vertical, or both), or you're down to one monitor and the real estate issue becomes a more pressing issue.

I'm at 'stacking weirdly' and my old main monitor (a "4k" monitor that is actually 3840x2160) is vertical, and angled on the corner of my desk. OS X defaults it to 1080p, which is too big a font for how close I sit to it. Full resolution is way too tiny. So I use 1440 (1.5).

The smallest graphics I use are in grafana, and those happen to be on my vertical monitor. I don't see any weird moire patterns when I scroll them, so if there's an issue with line width, it's well covered by things like not using #00 or #ff for all RGB color channels, which tend to show artifacts more overtly.

But then again, it's not just the hardware it's also the software, and Linux has struggled to keep up with Windows and OS X on some issues related to graphics. The saga of good fonts in X took an unseemly amount of time to sort out.

newaccount742• 4 years ago

Yeah, Steve Jobs mistake was assuming that 3rd party manufacturers would offer high res displays. 10 years later, and the only high res display on the market that's suitable as a 2x display is Apple's own 5k studio display, which comes with a super high price and a crappy webcam...

If you want something that uses less space on the desk, there used to be some 24" 4k displays which were acceptable, even though the DPI is slightly too low on them for 2x.

So while the 2x scaling worked out great for laptops and iMacs, there's unfortunately only very limited options for external displays...

colordrops• 4 years ago

No it's not 150% scaling. You can run native resolution just fine. With Linux it's actually better than higher resolutions, as the dot pitch is similar to a 27" 4k external monitor, so you can scale natively on both and have windows look approximately the same size. My other laptop is 4k, and it's a nightmare getting scaling to work because it has such a higher DPI than my external monitor. If Linux had better scaling support for HiDPI I'd prefer a 4k laptop but it doesn't, so native resolution is the way to go.

zanethomas• 4 years ago

my next laptop!

thebiglebrewski• 4 years ago

Super excited about this launch today! Come work with us on the Rails monolith that powers https://frame.work/ if you're stoked too - we're hiring a Senior Full Stack Engineer: https://jobs.lever.co/framework/1d6559b2-ccf9-4391-bded-6303...

Lots of exciting projects coming up as we expand the Marketplace around the world and have more big launches on the horizon. Fully remote, and having every other Friday off is a nice benefit :)

silencedogood32• 4 years ago

If I wait six more months to buy will they have a really solid linux story?

silencedogood32• 4 years ago

Does anyone know if this would be difficult to connect to a second monitor?

bitwize3• 4 years ago

Love the shoutouts to the recent Framework Mainboard cyberdeck projects. Framework is clearly right out in front in terms of hacker community goodwill. Keep it up, guys -- push it further. With enough clout, as an OEM you might be able to push back against Intel on things like ME, and make our hardware even more freedom-respecting.

nerdjon• 4 years ago

it is exciting to see an upgradeable laptop actually be upgradable.

But I have to wonder what the market for this is? The primary use case I see for something like this is a gaming laptop, which this is just nowhere near being suitable for.

Outside of that use case, for the vast majority of compute workloads is being able to upgrade really a need? I have 2 laptops (well technically 3 but I don't count my work one really). A gaming laptop and my Mac as my primary computer outside of gaming. I tend to upgrade my Mac maybe... 4 or 5 years. Maybe even more than that. My Mac I got in 2019 and feel no need to upgrade anything in it.

My gaming laptop on the other hand... If I had the ability to upgrade that I would likely upgrade parts every year or 2... like a good a gaming desktop.

What am I missing here outside of the excitement of an upgradeable laptop? I don't want to diminish the work on that, I am just unclear the use.

victor9000• 4 years ago

A few weeks ago I spilled an entire cup of sugary espresso on my framework laptop which completely ruined my keyboard by making it a sticky mess. You know what I did? I ordered a replacement keyboard kit for $99, installed it in ~5 minutes, and I haven't thought about it since.

Some other part will fail in the future, or I'll spill another cup of coffee, and when that happens all I need to worry about is swapping out the affected parts. And that's great compared to my previous alternatives with an XPS, which was basically to buy a brand new laptop.

torginus• 4 years ago

Can't you do the same thing with a Thinkpad?

mixmastamyk• 4 years ago

Looks like they didn’t change the screen resolution or size, There is a person here always complaining about it and might have a point. Believe content has to be scaled 1.5x which is problematic.

helloworld653• 4 years ago

How many external 1080p60 monitors can this drive with the laptop open? 4?

nrp38• 4 years ago

Yep, you can use up to four displays in total. That includes the internal display, so using four external monitors would mean turning off the internal one.

hprvzr• 4 years ago

What are the limits for refresh rate and resolution? Also I assume DP/HDMI extension ports are done via USB-C, right? May direct connections to USB-C monitor help?

meibo• 4 years ago

GPUs please! Make it happen!

jandrese• 4 years ago

Yay! They finally offer an Ethernet card so I don't have to use flaky piece of crap Realtek based USB Ethernet adapters.

(Reads the specs)

Shit!

loufe• 4 years ago

I'm looking at getting a new portable device at the end of the year as my nearly 11 year old Y580 IdeaPad continues to fall apart. I feel like it's between Framework and an iPad pro. It's a little dumb but the amount of content I watch on the thing is high, and having an OLED screen is important to me, it changes the game visually.

I would happily drop $2500 CAD on a framework if an OLED screen became available but I sincerely doubt it is something easy for them to source. That said, having a physicaly Canadian French keyboard is a huge plus, thanks Frame.Work. Oh well, choices to be made.

cosmiccatnap2• 4 years ago

Sad to see still no 15/16 inch variant, amd edition, or choice of black shell.

That being said I'm glad to see they are following through on the things they promise like upgradable cores. In theory I take it this means if you currently have a framework laptop you can just buy the compute core and upgrade.

conradev2• 4 years ago

It is awesome that Framework is so extensible – I would love to see either an integrated 5G modem, or a 5G expansion card. The latter is tricky because of antennas…

doyougnu4• 4 years ago

I recently bought a framework laptop for a daily driver when I'm not on my desktop. For context I was running NixOS on an old 2014 macbook air, and I work on the glasgow haskell compiler in my day job so I do a lot of CPU heavy tasks.

I've got to say, as long as these things are being produced I'll never go back. They are just too good and I cannot recommend them highly enough. One of the things that didn't occur to me before I bought it was that _because_ of the modular design I can switch the side the power port is on. That may not seem like much but it was a revelation the first time I sat on the couch and thought "huh I really wish this was over on that side....wait a minute!".

I've also had absolutely no problems with NixOS on my machine, even my apple earbuds easily connect via bluetooth, something that I never quite got working on my macbook.

10/10 This is damn close to my dream laptop and I'm excited a new version is on the way.

wollsmoth2• 4 years ago

You can basically do this with macs if you still use the usb-c charger. Even with the new ones they still charge through those ports on either side.

But yeah, being able to swap those ports is great. I'm feeling the pain of having only 1 hdmi out on my laptop and the ability to just add one on sounds amazing.

k8sToGo• 4 years ago

Isn't there an issue if you plug in on the wrong side? I remember something about CPU and throttling.

kibwen• 4 years ago

Do Macs still favor charging via the USB-C ports on the right side? IIRC charging on the left caused overheating/throttling. I'd be interested to know if the Framework also favors a specific port for charging.

smoldesu3• 4 years ago

I can't even imagine how good these'll be on Alder Lake... might have to grab that i5 model.

nikodunk• 4 years ago

Agreed! Got one from work, and it's a beast on Fedora 36 with the 11th gen. Even the discrete-ish Iris Xe graphics are surprisingly fast. So cool that we'll actually be able to update the innards in a few years as necessary to keep it feeling fresh.

Edit: A small but nice design feature is the light that comes on to imply whether the usb-c port is charging properly. Coming from a mac that removed this feature when usb-c charging was introduced, this is a huge luxury.

0x38B2• 4 years ago

I just played through Mass Effect 2 & 3 on mine (Intel i5) with no problems, using Wine. When I do upgrade my main board, I may get the i7 for better graphics performance.

Another huge + is setting battery charge limit with a console command (1). When I’m connected to power at home, I run `ectool fwchargelimit 60` to keep the battery at 60%. If I’m going out, I set it to 100% in the morning and let it charge.

1: https://community.frame.work/t/exploring-the-embedded-contro...

Abishek_Muthian3• 4 years ago

Even the discrete-ish Iris Xe graphics are surprisingly fast. So cool that we'll actually be able to update the innards in a few years as necessary to keep it feeling fresh.

Isn't Intel graphics always been the best bet for Linux due to their excellent driver support? I'm excited for their discrete GPUs just for the sake of proper Linux support.

I have an 15W haswell machine in the corner decoding & encoding multiple HD camera feeds from motion on integrated GPU using intel_vaapi while the CPU is free for postgres, redis and a qemu VM - 24*7.

bodge50002• 4 years ago

Even the discrete-ish Iris Xe graphics are surprisingly fast

Anyone have any idea how well this stacks up against RDNA2? I'd love it to be close enough to not have to worry much about, but from what I hear AMD have it significantly better

emiller88• 4 years ago

FYI, we've added support for the framework to nixos-hardware. I appreciate any feedback or improvements anyone has! https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framewor...

fuzzybear39652• 4 years ago

Thank you!!!

benevol• 4 years ago

Will you guys ever produce a "wide screen" version of your laptop? If so, you have another customer.

fui2• 4 years ago

Thank you for doing this! I've been following different posts on NixOS and how different folks have managed to get things working on NixOS.

gigatexal3• 4 years ago

The new revision with the 12-gen chips does it fix the complaints people have had about loud fan noise?

I am super on the fence between this and an arm mac - this is super customizable but the arm chips in the air are silent — no fan.

popol12• 4 years ago

If you’re on Linux, this does the job https://community.frame.work/t/linux-fan-speed-controller-wi...

gigatexal3• 4 years ago

Yep. Plan to run Fedora 36

fuzzybear39652• 4 years ago

Ditto.

fiddlerwoaroof• 4 years ago

This is interesting: over the last several months, a friend has been running NixOS on a Framework and has been told by Framework employees that they can’t help him with Linux kernel issues because he’s using an unsupported OS and he’s also had lots of complaints about battery life and power management.

I love the idea of the Framework, but it seems to suffer from all the issues that made me switch to MacBooks in the first place.

lukeschlather3• 4 years ago

doyougnu was previously running NixOS on a Macbook so their bar for "working" is probably much lower than a normal person's.

I'm on Windows, but if a Linux could give me reliable power management I would switch in a heartbeat. I don't know what it would take to have sensible power management on Linux without major issues.

nrp38• 4 years ago

We would love to be able to provide more personalized service for different Linux distros, but we unfortunately just don't have the necessary expertise to be able to do that well.

For Linux-related service requests, we first ask that folks try an Ubuntu 22.04 or Fedora 36 Live USB (the distros we have done the most internal testing with and created setup guides for) to be able to determine whether there could be a hardware issue. Once we have verified there isn't a hardware issue, we ask that folks post in the community thread for their distro for help: https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91

In practice, this works well because we have an extremely helpful and engaged community (including in many cases maintainers for that distro). Additionally, because that debugging happens in the open, any answers from it are publicly visible for future users to see.

All of that said, we'd love to find better ways to provide deeper support ourselves and are open to input. A more official path would likely still start with the most popular distros.

trelane18• 4 years ago

I wondered. It looked very Windowsy, and I'd guessed the Linux support was non-existent. Sounds like I'm going to stay away then.

grumpyprole2• 4 years ago

I don't get why the Apple wins? You'd have plenty of issues on a MacBook running an unsupported OS.

dheera• 4 years ago

Same. Only things I wish were slightly better build quality and also I've had issues with Wi-Fi disappearing of late [0], fast battery drain during suspend, as well as battery refusing to charge from zero but there's a workaround involving a dumb USB charger. Kind of hoping these are just early adopter issues and that they'll be dealt with over time.

I really hope some community hardware experts can design more modules for this thing. I want an IMU+GPS+Barometer module among other things, but I'm a software person and don't know how to design PCBs.

[0] https://community.frame.work/t/wi-fi-disappeared-and-reappea...

starky• 4 years ago

I couldn't get Wifi working reliably when trying to use my Framework on Linux, even trying multiple distros, it would just disappear and not come back. Eventually I gave up and switched to Windows which has worked perfectly.

My main complaint are that the built in speakers are not good, they just simply cannot get loud enough. I'm also a little annoyed that I bought mine and a month and a half later the 12th gen version comes out. I would have happily waited for it.

rcoder• 4 years ago

10/10 This is damn close to my dream laptop and I'm excited a new version is on the way.

Agreed, with the seemingly-trivial but actually real elaboration: I’m excited because there’s a new version on the way and _I can decide, piece by piece, which parts of the upgrade I want._.

Having the upgrade be a literal circuit board I can swap out is 100% the value prop for Framework and I am likewise a very happy customer to see it, even if I’m happy with the current performance of my laptop and don’t need to upgrade.

jerryzh• 4 years ago

To be fair when MacBook move to typec one can charge on both sides for many years, and I kind of look forward to a future when all port use typec But when it comes to inside Mac by no mean compares to framework

morganvachon• 4 years ago

Except the M1 Air and 13 inch M1 Pro reverted to left side only (the new models with M1 Pro/Max chips have an extra USB-C on the opposite side). It's my only real gripe with the M1 laptops compared to older Intel Macs.

Of course, the Framework is the polar opposite of the M1 Macs' locked down "appliance" feel. I'm enjoying the progress being made with OpenBSD and Asahi Linux on the M1 platform, but the hardware itself remains impossible to upgrade or repair for mere mortals. The Framework is the pinnacle of truly owning your laptop while not sacrificing speed and a crowd pleasing design.

gonehome3• 4 years ago

Does suspend work reliably? Is battery life ok? Does the trackpad suck?

I’m tempted but every time I’ve tried so far to leave Mac hardware I regret it - seems even harder now with M1 performance.

Still, the framework laptop is super cool. Might be worth trying anyway.

SkyMarshal• 4 years ago

Yeah it's hard to beat just running linux in a VM on a Mac, especially with Mac's new hardware. Framework's modularity is probably the most compelling alternate value proposition, though.

smeej3• 4 years ago

I still haven't been able to get suspend to work on my high-spec last-gen Framework, despite following all the troubleshooting and disjointed recommendations in the forum because the company won't just publish fixes for common problems directly.

Suspend will sap 30% of my energy by morning, even in "deep" sleep, and the computer won't wake properly. The trackpad will work intermittently or really fast after sleeping.

I have to turn the thing all the way off every time I use it. Which, alright, forced asceticism. Maybe a growth opportunity.

It's just frustrating and disappointing to find out so much work has gone into making a new one instead of fixing the pile of garbage I ended up with supporting them with the first version.

doyougnu4• 4 years ago

Suspend hasn't failed me yet but I run suspend+hibernate.

Trackpad seems good to me but my setup is not trackpad heavy. In fact I have a hotkey binding in xmonad that disables the track pad because everything I do is keyboard based including my browser. So I find I rarely need to use the mouse and it just gets in my way.

Battery depends on usage, with nothing (nothing is emacs daemon, wifi on, bluetooth on, xmonad and syncthing running, I don't use a desktop environment) running my battery reports a discharge rate of 5-6W, with normal usage (firefox and chrome open, slack and spotify open) the battery discharge is ~9-10W which is easily 6 hours, of course when I'm compiling GHC with all cores firing away this shoots up to ~30W and battery tanks to 1-2 hours but I can't really blame the machine for that :)

girvo• 4 years ago

seems even harder now with M1 performance

If it helps with the decision at all, certain 12th gen Intel mobile chips are competitive with the M1 in terms of performance. They do use more power to achieve that though if I remember correctly, but it's not an order of magnitude difference.

I'm stoked that mobile chips are getting as powerful as they are, even though I'm very much an Apple user. Higher perf low wattage parts are good for everyone, and competition will keep Apple moving forward which is good for me!

causality02• 4 years ago

Don't most laptops with type-c power inputs support charging through any of them? My Asus does.

JoshTriplett• 4 years ago

No, some laptops with type-C inputs on both sides only support charging on one side (typically marked with a power icon), because they don't want to route power input to both sides of the laptop. It adds a bit of cost and complexity.

Higher-end laptops either support it on all ports, or just put ports on one side of the laptop.

bodge50002• 4 years ago

Its a shame they don't have the option of AMD processors, the rdna2 igpu's included in the new ones would be more than sufficient for me, whereas my understanding is that the intel igpu's leave a lot to be desired.

As game dev is one of the main things I do with a personal PC, sadly this means Im somewhat tied down to having a decent gpu. RDNA2 would be perfect for me, powerful enough to dev on and weak enough to test on (so I dont need a seperate low-spec machine for testing low-end performance).

Farfignoggen• 4 years ago

It's really a deal breaker for me if they do not Start Offering Ryzen options for the Mainboard Module as Intel's Integrated graphics is currently lacking compared to AMD's Ryzen 6000 series Mobile APUs with RDNA2 Graphics(680M).

But I want Linux and the Blender 3.2 version released and all that ROCm/HIP support shipping with the Linux Distro/Kernel so I can Have Cycles-X GPU accelerated rendering for Ray Tracing/Rendering as Eevee lacks Ray Tracing currently.

It's just too bad the Intel and AMD have gone with some non standard GPU compute APIs instead of supporting Vulkan Compute. Intel's got its OneAPI while AMD's gotten its ROCm/HIP for GPU Compute API support as the Blender Foundation's no longer supporting OpenCL there for Blender 3.0/later editions.

AMD's Ryzen 6000 series APUs with RDNA2 integrated graphics are just great there for rendering capabilities but it's strange the laptops that ship with the Integrated 680M Graphics are mostly only available on laptops that also Include Discrete Mobile GPUs, as if the OEMs are force up-selling Ryzen 6000 based laptops that come with discrete mobile GPUs only, even if one can get buy with the Integrated 680M graphics alone.

But ETA Prime's YouTube channel has already Reviewed an Unnamed Mini Desktop PC Unit that sporting a Ryzen 6000HX series APU and that 680M integrated graphics but that product is not scheduled for release just yet. There is also a just released Minisfourm Ryzen 5000 series Mobile APU based Mini PC that's still Vega Integrated Graphics but that Mini PC also has a Radeon 6660M discrete Mobile GPU.

shawnz• 4 years ago

One of the things that didn't occur to me before I bought it was that _because_ of the modular design I can switch the side the power port is on.

I'm not really sold on the integrated dongle design of the framework. Doesn't this argument speak more to the design of USB-C than it does to the integrated dongles?

Transisto• 4 years ago

I'd expect every new laptop to have at least one Usb-c on both sides by now.

It'd be great if they could make an extension with more than one port on it, they're wide enough for more.

fui2• 4 years ago

Apologies, I am new to HN, could you please share a write-up of your experience and process in case you haven't already? I'm moving from an MacBook Pro to a Framework and before the MBP, I used Slackware as my daily driver. Would appreciate any tips on using NixOS as a daily driver.

gadflyinyoureye• 4 years ago

Please make your forums have a link to the actual site.

jameshart5• 4 years ago

Ohhhhh that's why there was a spate of projects posted last week about building computers based on framework mainboards - submarine marketing for this framework upgrade launch. Figured it was framework behind it somehow, but the fact that it's to promote the 'here are some ways to use your old mainboard once you upgrade' angle makes a ton of sense.

natosaichek• 4 years ago

Yeah - whenever somebody makes a good thing and people use it in cool ways, that's submarine marketing for that thing.

jameshart5• 4 years ago

Sure, it's entirely a coincidence that both https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ and https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal published 10 days ago, and they're both referenced in this framework announcement. Convenient for Framework that those two projects came out right before their upgrade launch!

But I don't just have my own innate cynicism to go on here! The framedeck project write-up actually contains this disclosure:

   As they were preparing this documentation release, they emailed me to see if I'd be interested in a collaboration of sorts. They would provide one of their laptops and some additional modules for me to build something unique with the only condition being that I released the designs for public use.

Which is fine! This is earned media - Framework got some people to make and open source some cool designs. I wasn't sure, last week, why they were doing that now in particular. Now I know why they're pushing that angle, and it makes sense.

Goodness, people are touchy.

nrp38• 4 years ago

It's somewhat less nefarious than that. Before we announced the availability of a new Mainboard that existing Framework Laptop users can upgrade to, we wanted to make sure that there were interesting ways for people to re-use their old ones. When we sent out hardware to some creators, we told them we would appreciate it if they posted their projects by X date, leading to them clustering just before that date.

jameshart5• 4 years ago

Didn’t mean to come across as accusatory - on the contrary, it’s smart marketing and totally in keeping with the brand values.

deepsun• 4 years ago

Used it for half a year. All works awesome, but I don't know how to update firmwares on my Linux Mint/Ubuntu. There are some guidelines on website, but they don't seem official, and say something like "you may need to fix your bootloader after" which sounds scary that I'll break my perfectly working system.

unnouinceput• 4 years ago

"The system" is on your hard, yes? Who's stopping you to buy another one for testing and swap them out? This way you preserve your perfect working system AND get to play with your desires on the other one. IMO framework laptop is made specifically to tinker with as much as possible in the end.

spullara• 4 years ago

Can I reassign the ctrl and fn keys? I don't use Fn and it is super annoying that it is where it is.

digisign• 4 years ago

If not you can almost always swap with Caps lock via software. That should slowly break the dependence on the corner key.

xchaotic• 4 years ago

I had a look and it looks like everything is upgraded- the chassis, the motherboard etc. So if you wanted to take advantage of all of the improvements you’d need to buy them all. At which point it might be less materially wasteful to but another, less recyclable laptop that uses fewer parts ?

hojjat12000• 4 years ago

You don't "NEED" to upgrade your chassis. Even if you do, it's just one piece out of the 3 pieces for your chassis. You'd be upgrading your motherboard and CPU. You can reuse your wifi, storage, ram, your expansion cards, your display, your speakers, your keyboard, your touchpad, your battery, powersupply, cables...

That being said, you don't need to upgrade from 11th gen to 12th gen. Maybe in a few years when 11th gen isn't cutting it for you anymore you can upgrade to 15th gen.

It's great that they provide a path for upgrading, but the more important thing here is having more recent hardware for someone who wants to buy a framework in 2022.

Macha3• 4 years ago

This isn't "run out and buy" level (that would be 15", AMD 5000 or Intel 12th gen with a dgpu), but it's probably enough to be my next laptop unless something drastic changes in the market by then.

codezero2• 4 years ago

I got my framework laptop a little over a week ago and I'm pretty happy with it, but seeing such a huge performance boost is frustrating a little, that said, I bought it to support/encourage the company, so I guess it's working :P

julianbuse• 4 years ago

well, it is upgradeable...

codezero2• 4 years ago

Didn't expect to need to upgrade the mainboard so quickly :)

I prefer to wait for them to have an AMD option before changing out the mainboard.

ripvanwinkle• 4 years ago

just waiting for a 15inch version to come out. Any ideas when that might happen

SemanticStrengh• 4 years ago

When will you support a 2K (ideally) (or 4K) OLED panel? I'm a software developer and I'm not going back to the blurry text era and the non-contrasting movie/games era. Also come on you need thunderbolt support, egpu is a key advantage in 2022. So I appreciate the concept but currently you are not enough for my needs.

stakkur• 4 years ago

I like the concept of this laptop. I really want to like the laptop itself, enough to buy one.

But for me, it always comes down to the experience of the user interface--the keyboard, trackpad, and screen. And that always brings me back to Macbooks and ThinkPads. I'm a Linux fan, but 'ability to run a specific OS' is not even in my top three must have features.

tofuahdude• 4 years ago

How do these intel chips standup against the current M1 lineup?

I'd love to swap away from Apple to Framework but I gotta say, the current Pro M1 is pretty remarkable.

Is intel in the same ballpark with the 12th gen?

pmlnr3• 4 years ago

Please, please, please make s keyboard option that has full size arrow keys, dedicated pgup, pgdown, del, ins, home, end. The current laptop keyboards, apart from thinkpads, are a joke for those who want to work on them, the framework, sadly, is included.

I'd also love a trackpoint with 3 dedicated buttons but I'll keep dreaming.

kristianp3• 4 years ago

I agree about the separate Home, End PgUp, PgDn keys. Still mad at Apple for influencing the removal of these from all laptop keyboards! It's one big reason that I have a Thinkpad, even though their keys aren't as good as a Surface's or Mac's.

hda23• 4 years ago

Same situation here. When I bought my last laptop, a thinkpad, the main deciding factor was keyboard keys.

In their reckless pursuit of apple and their loaded customers, Laptop makers failed to appreciate how important key layout is to retaining their existing customers. Fortunately, framework (or any third-party) is in a position to offer keyboards with alternate key layouts :)

archon810• 4 years ago

100% this and given the target demographic, I can't believe I had to scroll so much until I found the keyboard called out.

cyanydeez• 4 years ago

When we gonna get AMD

baka367• 4 years ago

I am staying in a 2017 laptop waiting for framework to become available in the wider world. Really hope to hear about would wide availability as soon as possible

causality02• 4 years ago

I'm definitely a fan of the Framework, but I'm not a customer yet. They just don't differentiate enough for me yet. Perhaps in the future they'll branch out a little bit more by offering things like a touchpad with real buttons, a non-chiclet keyboard, a USB module that combines multiple type-A ports and a microsd reader on the same module, etc.

seanp2k2• 4 years ago

Love the Framework idea, but I just upgraded my desktop from a 5950x to a 12900KS and I had to go from a 280mm AIO to a 420mm AIO just to keep it from thermal throttling. These 12th-gen Intel chips put out A LOT of heat. I hope that they offer an AMD version with one of the upcoming Zen4 mobile APUs. The Intel integrated graphics continue to underperform, especially compared to the Ryzen APUs.

ElijahLynn4• 4 years ago

I like the marketplace idea and hope they can offer a ThinkPad keyboard with a touchstick/trackpoint.

See https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026... if this is you too.

andreareina• 4 years ago

Just having different keyboard options would be clutch, the non-inverted-T arrow keys is one of the few things I find to be really flawed.

plaguepilled• 4 years ago

'We're not taking orders in your country' COOL THANKS!

kristianp3• 4 years ago

Once I get to the checkout and address stage, the only country that can be selected is USA. I think they should let you know well before you have to create an account that this is the case.

jmprspret• 4 years ago

Yep. (Still...).

kristianp3• 4 years ago

On a tangent about the 12th gen i5s, does anyone understand why the cheaper SKUs remove the E cores and not reduce the number of P cores? I suppose Intel intends that power efficiency (battery life) should be a premium feature now.

nani8ot2• 4 years ago

That's because Intel uses the E/P cores differently ARM chips usually try to use E cores primarily for saving battery, so they only use P cores when performance is necessary. But Intel uses E cores to allow for higher multi core performance while staying in their power budget and the available die space.

i5s get the same amount of P cores as i7s, so their general application performance is pretty similar. But then if they compile/render something the many small E cores make the CPU faster without melting the system down...

The thermals are also why Intel 11th [1] gen had a maximum of 8 cores, while Intel 10th [2] gen had a maximum of 10. AMD pushed forward with their up to 16 cores and because of how good their performance per watt is, they could cool them. Intel noticed with 10th gen that they couldn't achieve high enough clock speeds with so many cores.

[1] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/... [2] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/...

walrus01• 4 years ago

I really, really wish they would not use realtek for gigabit Ethernet and would an Intel chipset NIC instead.

dr_soong• 4 years ago

Any plans on adding a touchscreen option in the future ? I almost bought one earlier this year but really wanted a convertible. So I bought the new X13 yoga gen2 instead, which I am quite happy with for now (works well with Ubuntu). I use it rarely in tablet mode though and could probably live without this feature but I absolutely love having a touchscreen on my notebook.

goodguyamerikan• 4 years ago

I know I'm getting ahead of myself and there's a lot of work on this space but please consider something similar for phones too

laerus• 4 years ago

2 years warranty, no AMD alternative, Windows preinstalled, sadly I'm not sold yet. Maybe I'll go with System76 this time.

Smithalicious2• 4 years ago

Any plans to sell a full laptop kit minus mainboard? I have a Framework with the 11th Gen CPU (that I love very much) and I like that there is an upgrade path to the 12th gen CPU, but afaict that would leave me with an 11th gen mainboard that I can't turn into a second laptop easily and would be hard to sell for the same reason.

hollerith• 4 years ago

People put the mainboard in a 3-d-printed case (the plans for which are given away by Frame.work) to make a tiny desktop computer (like a NUC), so a mainboard would sell.

bacheaul• 4 years ago

Considering you'd like to buy both a complete laptop minus the main board (to put your existing main board in), and a main board (to upgrade your existing 11th gen), I'm sure there's a solution we can find here...

Smithalicious2• 4 years ago

Ah, yeah, a little bit of creative thinking gets you quite far with this issue!

Thanks :-)

Abishek_Muthian3• 4 years ago

Looks like Framework is ready to take over the role of the compute unit from Raspberry Pi/Jetson for cyber decks[1] thanks to the separate availability of the mainboard and its modularity.

It's also priced reasonably and so I might be able to get it to India without selling my kidney which is not possible with fully-built laptops due to import restrictions i.e. If Framework ever decide to ship to the country.

[1] https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgra...

mickotron• 4 years ago

Please allow order from Australia.

GekkePrutser2• 4 years ago

Huh it feels like that thing only just came out... I had no idea it was already out a full year.

I wonder if it also offers FreeBSD support.. That would be amazing. Though it's probably a long shot especially for the alder lake version.

ejjpi• 4 years ago

Glad to see the upgraded version, I hope they'll open ordering in Italy soon!

The new and upgraded Framework Laptop

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