Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/05/23/vacation.in.america/index.html

by marcinw • 15 years ago

413 394 15 years ago

marcinw• 15 years ago

How many of you treat conferences as mini-vacations? I find that in my field, going to a couple conferences throughout the year makes up for a couple days of vacation, as long as I don't have any work on my plate.

Also, I find that being single and having friends that (on the majority), make less than I do, makes it difficult to plan trips to places you'd have to fly/rent a hotel for. Trips consist of ten friends carpooling, getting a group rate at a ski resort, and renting out a condo for next to nothing for a weekend.

m0nastic• 15 years ago

I definitely do that.

I have a lot of vacation days through work (6 weeks this year), but have pretty much no desire to go on vacations. I end up using my vacation days to go to Security conferences.

I've found, at least with my favorite conferences (CanSecWest, Shmoocon), that they refill my "info-sec excitement meter" for a good four months before I start considering quitting and going to work in a comic book store.

jquery5• 15 years ago

I think about quitting and working a lower paying job all the time. That just inspires me to sock away more of my excess income for that day when it eventually comes.

zdw2• 15 years ago

One result of this is that businesses chuck human redundancy out the window. Often there's only one person who can do a business critical task, and as they can't really be gone from work for that long, the business gets by.

From an business uptime perspective, forced "downtime" of employees through vacation is actually a good way to force the creation of backup systems for business process.

larrywright• 15 years ago

There are a lot of companies that do force people to take vacations for precisely this reason.

I also recall hearing at some point in time that a lot of financial institutions forced certain people to take time off,as a means to detect embezzling. I'm not sure if that's true or not.

karolist2• 15 years ago

Yes, that is true.

bluedanieru• 15 years ago

I also recall hearing at some point in time that a lot of financial institutions forced certain people to take time off,as a means to detect embezzling. I'm not sure if that's true or not.

Not only is that practiced, it's the law.

geon2• 15 years ago

Here in Sweden, employees typically have 5 weeks paid vacation. Because of our climate, virtually everyone take their time off during July.

This makes the whole inustial and coorporate sector grind to a halt. A lot of factories literally shut down for a few weeks.

Fortunately, it is rather well coordinated.

orijing• 15 years ago

That really makes me think though: If they chucked redundancy out the window, that makes you the only person who can do a business critical task. Shouldn't that give you enormous leverage to negotiate with your employer? It often takes a lot of time and effort to get someone new up to your level. If they can't afford another couple weeks of vacation for you (in exchange for you staying on board instead of having to bring in someone completely new), then they must be doing it wrong.

What does everyone think?

zdw2• 15 years ago

Replacement cost is often quite high for any employee, even someone working a basic job, as training is expensive.

Thus why many employers don't do training other than the bare minimum - why train someone who might use the training to go elsewhere. This is the "keep them dumb and stupid" approach to employee retention.

ben1040• 15 years ago

From an business uptime perspective, forced "downtime" of employees through vacation is actually a good way to force the creation of backup systems for business process.

Or, when combined with a minimal vacation time bucket, forced vacation makes sure your employees will be there when you want them to be.

I know an auditor at a Big 4 accounting firm. The employees in her office are forced to take some vacation time during the slow time of the year. That way it burns down vacation time that they could otherwise be using during crunch time and causing short-staffing.

wccrawford3• 15 years ago

When I complained to an employer that it was too hard to request my vacation time (it's in my contract, they made it very hard to pick dates by always having an emergency deadline, etc) they replied "It's like that everywhere", as if it was a legit answer.

Many employers also lump in sick time with vacation time, as if that's a replacement since you didn't come into work. That would probably be okay, if you had an option to take unpaid vacation time when the time comes. Instead, you're often forced to take a shorter vacation, which doesn't do the job.

And forcing you to work while on vacation is unforgiveable. It shows that the company doesn't understand why vacation time is necessary. (I haven't had anyone do this to me, thankfully. It wouldn't have gone well.)

If taking unpaid vacations was an option, I would probably end up taking about 4 weeks worth of vacations, instead of 2.

jinushaun• 15 years ago

What really grinds my gears is when federal holidays count towards my "vacation time". Those alone eat up seven days!

I request four weeks of vacation in my contract, but am afraid to use them. That's America.

wccrawford3• 15 years ago

Oh wow, that's the first I've ever heard of that. That would not be acceptable for me.

I think I'll be asking for more vacation time in future contracts, too. I managed to secure extra in the first year of my current contract because I had a need (planned trip) but in the future, I'm just going to require more.

Of course, benefits and pay are interchangeable, so I might just request the ability to take unpaid vacation as needed, up to a certain amount.

krschultz3• 15 years ago

I don't have holidays count but we have a 'holiday shutdown' for 5 days between Christmas and New Years, mandatory you can't work, but you burn your own vacation time. And I only get 2 weeks! Other options include taking the week unpaid, or working during the the other weeks in the year when you hvae a holiday and 'floating' it to the holiday shutdown. So next week I have memorial day off, but I'll make sure to work >40 hours in the remaining 4 days. Is 1 extra week of vacation really going to change the productivity of the place?

PonyGumbo3• 15 years ago

I started a new job last year with 10 days of vacation. It wasn't until December that I learned that five of those days were mandatory for the week between Christmas and New Year's. If you had no vacation days left, it was unpaid time off.

lurker203• 15 years ago

If you are on a contract (which from context I am guessing is full-time per week, short-term), you can take vacation before or after the term, right?

pstack12• 15 years ago

Whoa, I've never heard of that before. In my experience, there are company holidays and vacation days and "sick days". All are at the discretion of the employer as to what are observed and given, but I've never heard of them overlapping (ie, if your company observes ten holidays and you have ten vacation days, you get 20 days off that year).

It seems like something you should be able to take up with your employer, because you requested vacation and they're counting holidays (something different) against them. That sees like a bit of a rip off.

Of course, I know that even two weeks of vacation is considered a lot in this country and my mom works in a job where she doesn't get _any_ paid vacation, so . . .

mike_esspe• 15 years ago

Why don't you require this unpaid vacations before signing the contract? Probably you will have a lower salary, but more time for rest.

jasonkester5• 15 years ago

Think about your choice of words up there, and you might just come up with your solution.

Force.

As in, my employer is forcing me to take shorter vacations. My employer is forcing me to work my vacations around their schedule.

That's not what he's doing. He's coercing you. It's different. He's implying that if you take the vacation you want, there might not be a job waiting when you get back. The answer to that is "fine".

If you truly don't care whether there's a job waiting on the other side, he loses all leverage. If you know for a fact that you could pick up another dev job inside of a week with a Facebook status update, he loses all leverage.

In other words, the only reason you think your boss can "force" you to do anything is because you've given him that ability. Quit thinking in those terms and you'll live a much happier life.

mvalle• 15 years ago

or, if the employer knows that if she finds a replacement for you, she will have to find replacements for all her employees, then she won't bother coercing you at all.

potatolicious3• 15 years ago

> "Quit thinking in those terms and you'll live a much happier life."

I agree in principle, but it's not always so simple. When you're young, have no kids, no mortgage, no car loan, etc, it's pretty easy to just say "fuck off, see ya" when your employer acts abusively.

When you have all of the above, that becomes more difficult. Relocating is more often than not the norm in this industry, and you don't exactly want to sell your house, or move your kids around, etc etc.

Disclaimer: I don't have kids, or a mortgage, and I'm very mobile right now, but I also understand this probably won't last forever.

It's a warning for living beyond your means anyways - I've noticed many people that I work with have huge mortgages out, to the point where the continuous stream of income becomes paramount - even a few months of interruption could possibly mean ruin for them. This strikes me as an idiotic fiscal policy.

exit2• 15 years ago

so none of your advice applies to the inevitable majority of replaceable workers

ry0ohki• 15 years ago

Usually the only time Americans can take long vacations is between jobs. I wonder how many actually change jobs just for this reason.

I asked for 4 consecutive weeks off to travel Europe once at a previous employer (I had worked there 5 years with no more then a week and a half off) and they denied the request. So I found another job and made sure I had a 4 week break between the two.

bmj• 15 years ago

I love my employer. I recently just returned from a five week road trip with my family. I worked remotely for roughly a week (to save PTO for another trip), and they had no problem with it.

It's interesting however--some folks take advantage of the flexibility, while others do not. Just about everyone in the R&D group travels frequently, and the CEO will often go dark for a month at a time, but others in the company don't take more than a week or two of their PTO each year.

rmc6• 15 years ago

You should have asked the new employeer for more time off aswell

geebee3• 15 years ago

I've done this, though I didn't realize what I was doing at the time.

I was working for Sun Microsystems, which gave me two weeks of vacation time. Sun was doing a forced shutdown over the week of the 4th of July, which burned 4 days, and then there was the inevitable "shutdown" over christmas break, which burned another three days. This left me with 3 days of "elective" vacation time. A wedding took care of those.

I quit Sun, and deliberately took off 4 weeks before my next job started. Funny, when the 4 weeks were over, I was ready to go back to Sun. The job I had left was better than the one I was taking. I realized that I had just been terminally burned out. Maybe I should have called Sun back, we were still on good terms, but at the time, I didn't really realize this was an option... and this was the deep tech recession of the early 2000s (which accounts for the forced shut down in the summer), so they were trying to shed employees.

I wasn't a rock star, but I'm pretty sure I was valuable to the company. I'd spent almost three years writing code, learning the structure of sun's data warehouse, getting to know supply analysts, people in sales, people in manufacturing, and understanding the issues in logistics and how to write analytical apps to support these functions. Even if my hard skills could be replaced (they certainly could, by any Industrial Engineering major with intermediate programming ability), the new person would still take years to acquire all that domain and institutional knowledge.

This is why I do agree that it's nuts for companies to be so stingy with vacation time. An extra week or two a year would probably have kept me at Sun. I think the reason this inefficiency persists is that employers just don't see the connection. I didn't even see the connection, and I was the one who quit my job.

It could be that I'm more prone to burnout than most. Maybe so, but I don't think I'm an extreme outlier on this. I suspect lots of job-hopping and burnout does result from such low vacation allotments.

silvestrov• 15 years ago

I think this is why Germany, Sweden and other northern European contries are able to compete: americans work many hours, but are semi-burned out, so the total amount of work are the same, vacation or no vacation.

brown9-2• 15 years ago

Until today I have never heard of a US company forcing employee's to use "forced shutdown" days - which I'm interpreting to mean the company telling people they have off on a certain day - as vacation days, and this is the second time (at least) it's been mentioned in this thread.

How common is this exactly? Because this sounds like a company that is really, really screwing it's employees.

lurker203• 15 years ago

Unfortunately, some of use take negative vacations between jobs, cashing out unused vacation on Friday, and starting a new job on Monday. It's only a month or two later that we realize our mistake.

woobar• 15 years ago

I work for a big financial co. When I asked about five consecutive weeks off they did not like it at first. But HR could not find anything against it in "Employee Handbook" (or whatever it's called). At the end they had to give it to me.

My guess is at the big corporations HR cannot just make up rules as they go. Also, they are all afraid to break any written rules. So a little push from an employee could bring desired results.

antidaily• 15 years ago

I find it hard to believe that the employer really gains much by offering less than 3 weeks. No one is fully productive 52 weeks a year (or even 50).

leftnode2• 15 years ago

There is a good article from another software developer around here who told his boss he was taking a 3 month vacation. He made the point the business needed him more than he needed it; he was a competent developer and could easily get work, didn't have any living/large financial dependencies. At first I thought it was absurd, but the more I thought about it, he was absolutely correct.

Take a long vacation some time. Even if you do have a family, save up enough money and go travel for a while. Take some decent time off work (4+ weeks). Let them fire you if they want. That's (one of my) my goal(s) over the next 2 years: take an extended vacation (I haven't taken more than a week off since I graduated college).

joss82• 15 years ago

Here it is, and it's awesome:

http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-vaca...

leftnode2• 15 years ago

Yes, that's exactly it, thank you.

patja2• 15 years ago

That is a good story, and I know as a manager I granted more than a few unpaid personal leaves of absence for top employees. Way better to have them come back refreshed and productive than to try to replace their domain knowledge with a new hire! It won't work for everyone though...but is a good litmus test of how much your employer values you.

It is also a solid testimony to the fact that for every HR policy there is an exception. If you are valued and make your case in the right way, you can get a lot! (think double-promotions, out of cycle raises, better gear, etc.) HR advises, Managers decide (if your manager doesn't know this, shop for a new one)

k3dz• 15 years ago

you can do that only if you are a senior dev.. what do junior devs, recent college grads do?

hmottestad3• 15 years ago

As a student I took time off from class and enjoyed 2 weeks skiing is switzerland, then another 2 weeks in the sun in Uruguay. All while it was -20C at home in Norway. I usually end up working during my normal vacations though, so last summer I had 2 weeks off.

One of the perks I would probably want in my contract when I start working is the ability to take up to 4 weeks of unpaid leave and being able to take all my vacation out in one go.

Also I've been told that in the US you have a limited number of sick days and that they sometimes come as part of your vacation. That's not the case in Norway. In fact, if you get sick for a week while on holiday, then you have the right to another week of holiday.

camiller13• 15 years ago

The sick days part varies by employer. At a previous employer it was 10 sick days in addition to your vacation days, and unused sick days accumulated from one year to the next. When my son was born 8 week early with my wife in the hospital 2.5 weeks before that, I had accumulated enough sick time that I could take 11 weeks off to spend at the hospital (Caleb spent 25 days in neonatal intensive care) and at home after he was released.

officemonkey• 15 years ago

My wife has freelanced for over 15 years (before I knew her) precisely because of this. She saved up a big stash of cash, set automatic bill pays for her rent and utilities and took a two-month trip to Paris.

You have to keep your expenses low (both at home and abroad) but at least you're not at work.

thomasgerbe7• 15 years ago

If you're a dev/designer, the good thing is you can work remotely, thus paying for parts of your vacation. I did the same with a two week foray in Paris: work one and half days for American companies, and then enjoyed the rest of the time there.

jasonkester5• 15 years ago

Wow, somebody remembers something that I wrote four years ago. Cool!

And it looks like somebody below has saved me the trouble of pointing you to it.

huherto• 15 years ago

Now leftnode has somebody to blame if the plan backfires.;-)

thomasgerbe7• 15 years ago

I actually did that as a freelance designer.

I did some work for a start-up while doing my own before taking a month off to travel the world (literally from America > Asia > Europe). They offered to pay me to stay but I thought, "I'd rather have the amazing experience of visiting friends and understanding foreign cultures than remaining comfortable.").

joezydeco• 15 years ago

I'm wondering how much of it is because people neglect to negotiate their vacation time when changing jobs.

Most American workplaces start you out with 2 weeks and then usually add a week or so after so many years of seniority. When you change jobs, how many of you ask for that same amount of vacation time at the new company? Or do you just accept that you're new and don't want to push things by asking for more at the onset? Or is it just forgotten until it's too late to ask?

bartonfink2• 15 years ago

I asked for, and received 3 weeks vacation after a recent job switch. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. The relative value of an extra week of vacation time is far greater than if my salary were bumped by the additional ~2% that I'd get by being there.

theBobMcCormick2• 15 years ago

I've got a co-worker who negotiated extra time of when he started here (3 weeks instead of the normal 2). Normally, we get an extra week of vacation after 5 years of employment. Unfortunately, they screwed him out of it because he already had 3 weeks, which is the normal amount for someone with 5 years of tenure. :-(

randallsquared3• 15 years ago

It's kind of interesting that "negotiated five extra weeks of vacation" turns into "failed to get an extra week vacation for every year, indefinitely". I guess it didn't occur to him (or either side, possibly) to specify the difference?

rmc6• 15 years ago

So if he worked there for 10 years he would have gotten 10 x 3 = 30 weeks holiday, however had he not negotiated he would have gotten 5 x 2 + 5 x 3 = 25 weeks.

I cannot see how you consider that he got a bad deal.

wyclif• 15 years ago

Or do you just accept that you're new and don't want to push things by asking for more at the onset?

You raise an important point. There can be a bit of that. For example, negotiating additional vacation time when you start a new job can hurt you a year later when you take that vacation and things aren't going well for the company. It can be viewed negatively by management and it might bleed into other considerations, like raises or promotions. Screwed up, I know, but it happens.

adestefan2• 15 years ago

When my old company was going under and a lot of us were looking for new jobs this was a tactic we all used. Go for pay and vacation time increases on offers. Some of us took more pay, some took more vacation. One guy got 6 weeks vacation.

My new company is 3 weeks vacation and 5 days sick/personal for everyone. Instead I just took more money with the understanding that I could get approved for leave without pay as needed.

pstack12• 15 years ago

Of course, that depends entirely on the company/industry. I don't even know that "most" American workplaces start you out with any vacation. In professional fields, they mostly do, I'm sure. My mom has worked at the same place for around twenty years and she has zero vacation. The only way I would be able to get her to come for a visit where I am is if I subsidized the time (ie, paid the money she would otherwise be missing out on, on top of the expense of the travel) -- because either way, she still has bills to pay.

I find that I take a lot of what I have in my daily business life for granted and am often surprised when I'm struck by the reality of how few benefits positions in other places in this country give people.

sudonim• 15 years ago

No vacation really sucks. I took 2 months between jobs once, but I've always been able to take a week or two weeks at a time. Now, we have the same policy as netflix. Basically you take time off when you want it, and you take as much as you want. It's all paid. Our only designer is gone for 3 weeks to get married. We'll struggle a little bit for those 3 weeks, but I'm grateful that when it's my time to take a week or two off, I don't feel guilty or have to beg for it.

jemfinch• 15 years ago

The funny thing is, the Netflix policy is tied to a corporate culture that's reputed to be very high stress, performance-focused, and quick to terminate. In such an insecure environment, I would be very surprised if Netflix employees took more vacation than the average industry employee.

I would never want to work for a Netflix-model company. When I take vacation, I want to feel entitled to it (because I am!), and when I forgo vacation, I want to be paid out for that sacrifice when I leave the company.

I think the Netflix model exists more to improve the company ledger by reducing liabilities than to help the employee or promote a healthy work environment. Maybe it's different where you work, but that's my perspective, from my comfortable 12 company holidays, 15 days PTO perspective.

ankimal• 15 years ago

We have the Netflix policy, well almost. We get the time off when you want it, but never more than 5 working days together (Thats a week). Did I mention that a large number of the employees travel abroad to visit family?

michaelpinto2• 15 years ago

The flip side of this is that we have Summer vacation for schools (unlike the rest of the world) and have institutionalized Spring Break for college students. Sadly we see the idea of vacation as being for the very young or the very old who retire.

kahawe• 15 years ago

You have those holiday vacations for schools and students in Europe as well... Christmas, Easter, Summer and some places also have a short break in fall.

yeahsure• 15 years ago

I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but in my country (in south america) schools and colleges have around 3 months off every year. As for employees, the usual is 2 weeks vacations + holidays (around 10 days) and sick time. You also have some time off when you become a parent and of course if you're a woman you have several months before giving birth.

yesbabyyes• 15 years ago

I think you're wrong about Summer vacation in the rest of the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_vacation#By_country

silversmith2• 15 years ago

Latvia chiming in here:

Mid-june till september off for schools. July and august off for college students. One week prior to christmas and one week some time around easter off for both. Four weeks paid yearly vacation for the 9-to-5ers. Two weeks additional paid vacation for working students finishing their graduation works. National holidays and sickness don't count towards your vacation time. If a national holiday happens to be in weekend, friday or monday is usually free.

Honestly, the more I read about US working conditions, the more I feel like people there are deliberately misinforming everyone else in attempt to reduce immigration and competition on job market.

karolist2• 15 years ago

Same in Lithuania actually. But.. 9-5ers? Do you really have 35 hour work week as opposed to 40 ( (17-9-1h lunch) * 5) or was it just digested for the American reader?

ugh5• 15 years ago

That can’t be true. Bavarian schools, for example, have a five-week summer vacation this year and additionally eight weeks of vacation spread over the whole year (one week in spring and autumn, two weeks for Easter, Pentecost and Christmas). There are also quite a few state and federal holidays but, as you can see, vacations are already clustered around those holidays. I think there are maybe two or three additional holidays outside of vacation times (May 1, German Unity Day, probably some weird religious holiday I’m forgetting).

That’s a shorter (but still quite long) summer vacation. Overall, however, vacation times are similar.

As for spring break, here is the situation at my German university: classes end at July 15 this year, exams end at August 20, the next semester starts at October 1. That’s one month and nearly two weeks when you can be absolutely sure that there is nothing to do for you (at least when you finish your papers in time and don’t have a thesis to write) and probably more depending on when your exams are.

We also get two weeks off for Christmas and there is obviously also a shorter break (about one week and up to one month depending on when your exams are) between winter semester and summer semester (but no other vacations, only federal and state holidays).

I don’t know much about US universities (Is there downtime for students between semesters?) but I do know that spring break certainly doesn’t compare. (One or two weeks? Seriously?)

rb2k_• 15 years ago

As far as I remember, American school kids and students have most of the summer off (unless they go to summer school, ...)

kgermino2• 15 years ago

For reference: I'm in a Midwestern university and I have off from May 15 thru the end of August. IME that's about average at semester schools.

barry-cotter• 15 years ago

I'm pretty sure German universities suck in comparision to all Anglophone universities when it comes to free time, and I know it's true for Irish and British ones.

You get three months off for the summer (normally June, July and August), a month off over Christmas (though in some universities it may only be three weeks, and you may have to prepare for exams), and various other time off.

Also that summer time is free, no papers to write. It is goddamned awesome. http://www2.ul.ie/web/WWW/Services/Academic_Calendar/2012_-_...

michaelpinto2• 15 years ago

It's been a long time for me, but in the US I recall that it covers part of June, July and August — so that has to be at least over 8 weeks. Although maybe the idea that our kids get a longer Summer break is part of the the anti-vacation propaganda?

pstack12• 15 years ago

In American schools, you have three months off over the summer and a week off over Christmas and a week of for Spring Break. Then you have all the little holidays here and there throughout the year.

rmc6• 15 years ago

Ireland here. Summer holidays for schools are everywhere. Secondary school children (12-18yrs) get 3 months in the summer. College/University students get 2 to 3 months (depending).

Likewise they usually 1 or 2 weeks off at Christmas time, and 1 or 2 at easter time (around your spring break).

chrismealy• 15 years ago

Nobody has mentioned the obvious: weak unions.

kgermino2• 15 years ago

I'm not sure how much that has to do with it.

I live in Chicago, no one around here would accuse the unions of being weak, but vacation time here is no different than in the south.

Unless you mean on a national level (unions pushing for federal reform and what-not) than yes the unions here are weaker, but the U.S. Also tends to be more opposed to national regulations than Europe as well.

yxhuvud6• 15 years ago

Here in Sweden the government mostly only legislated what the unions and the employer organizations already had agreed to. That went on throughout the 40's to the 70's. At that point the state legislated some things that had no prior agreement and then progress basically stopped.

r00fus2• 15 years ago

Considering most vacation law is set at the national level, yes, weak union power at the national level results in the situation we have here.

steauengeglase• 15 years ago

I have a feeling that there is a bit more to it than that.

In America it is fairly common for employers tack on a little more vacation time every year for both salary and hourly employees. It isn't too terribly odd to have 1 to 1.5 months off a year after working for someone for 5 to 10 years, but Americans seldom stay at the same job for very long. Either you go off for greener pastures, quit out of frustration, get laid off or simply resign because they fear that prospective employers won't hire you because you stayed at one place for too long.

Deep down, I think we have a serious fear of being considered lazy by our peers.

michaelchisari• 15 years ago

It isn't too terribly odd to have 1 to 1.5 months off a year after working for someone for 5 to 10 years

I would actually say that that's very odd, except in very specialized fields.

pnathan4• 15 years ago

The stepped-by-seniority approach is how my current employer has it. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

sosuke• 15 years ago

My employeer recently went unlimited vacation! Which in practice really means no vacation unless you bully your way into it which is very stressful.

patio11• 15 years ago

That is definitely the perk that isn't. Imagine a startup offering employees unlimited pay -- "Whoa whoa whoa, you drew $3,000 this month? $3,000!? You're a single guy, what do you need $3,000 for? Don't we give you enough soda?"

lpolovets• 15 years ago

My employer has the same policy, and I've enjoyed a ton of vacation time (in exchange for getting a lot done when I'm not on vacation). Unlimited vacation is an awesome perk in the hands of the right employer.

brass_cannon• 15 years ago

It really is dependent upon your work environment, and the people you work for. When I started at my current job, we had two weeks vacation after 6 months, plus half a dozen holidays. We were a very young company, and I got the impression that policy was created somewhat arbitrarily when we only had a couple of full time employees.

We went to an 'unlimited' policy about 16 months ago, and one of our devs spent almost an entire month overseas earlier this year without issue. He's not too much of an outlier within our company in terms of how much vacation time is taken, either.

toyg2• 15 years ago

It wasn't always like this in Europe. Extended vacation time was one of the many hard-fought rights won by the socialist/trade-unionist movements of the past century throughout the continent. Not even Thatcher dared attacking that right (she dropped a few national holidays here and there, instead).

Things didn't turn out quite the same on the other side of the pond, sadly, and this is the result.

odiroot• 15 years ago

That may be true but here, in Europe (esp. Eastern), many people go years without taking more than few days of vacation. One, you're discouraged to take time off -- you can lose your job if you're not "devoted". Two, you have to work over capacity to support yourself and your family.

gst4• 15 years ago

I guess that depends on the country. Here in Austria it's the norm to take all 5 weeks of holidays you get each year. If you don't take all of them you can either roll them over to the next year or have your unused days "paid for" by the employeer.

In addition, unused holidays don't really expire. So if you or your employeer terminates the contract, you have the right to be paid for _all_ unused holidays that accumulated during the period of the contract. That's the reason why most employees force you to really take all of your 5 weeks each year.

Edit: Seems that I was wrong and that unused holidays expire after a few years. Still, each employer I've worked for so far "forced" its employees to really take their 5 weeks of vacation.

toyg2• 15 years ago

Well, in Britain the regime is usually fairly generous, with 24 days + 8 national holidays (guaranteed to be working days) being the norm for middle-class jobs and IT. We already know about France. Italy, last I checked, had an average of 20 days + 13 national holidays, with teachers being famous for their 3-months summer break (which in practice is little more than a month, but anyway).

Yes, there is always pressure about choosing the right time for the business or public service, but at the end of the day it's a right and if you don't exercise it you're entitled to a lot of extra money -- which is why employers are keen on people actually taking time off.

munchhausen• 15 years ago

> One, you're discouraged to take time off -- you can lose your job if you're not "devoted".

I don't know that this is the case in many European countries, including Eastern Europe (at least the part of it that is in the EU). First of all, in most (all?) EU countries all workers get 4 weeks paid vacation minimum. If you do not use up all of it, your employer can offer you to "carry over" the vacation to the next year. If they do not offer you that option then they are obliged to "force" you to go on vacation after it becomes clear that you will not use up all of your vacation days. Some employers will offer to instead compensate you extra for the vacation days you did not use up - this is legal in some EU countries only.

> Two, you have to work over capacity to support yourself and your family.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but this just doesn't make a lot of sense, since those mandatory 4 weeks of vacation are paid vacation - i.e. you get paid the same amount you would receive had you been working instead of being on vacation.

Just about the only reason why you could potentially make less money due to vacation is if you regularly do a lot of overtime (which you obviously cannot do while on vacation).

DrCatbox• 15 years ago

Not strictly Eastern Europe (was never part of Warsaw pact, had hostile relations to Soviet Union) but the former Yugoslavian countries today are in this seat: Slovenia enjoys vacation time like during Yugoslavian times, which means 4-5 weeks at least plus holidays. Croatia took a more capitalist route and altough workers still enjoy socialist benefits such as 1 hour per day payed for their lunch, and holidays off, the vacation time has been decreased while working time increased (10-12 hours per day are common). Bosnia has large unemployment but the holidays+vacation are intact for the public offices, while for private employees get 1 or 2 weeks off per year. Serbia is in a similar position.

Yugoslavia Socialism -> 4-5 weeks at least, plus all religioous holidays and all communist free days. Capitalism -> 1-2 weeks maximum, religious on, communist off.

gaius3• 15 years ago

To be fair to Thatcher, Arthur Scargil gave his workers lots of extra days off...

wladimir• 15 years ago

This is crazy from our (Western European) perspective.

It was one of my reasons for not taking a job in the USA that was offered me a few years ago. Yes, it paid somewhat more than here in Europe but I'd rather have the benefits such as more free time and better health care than more income.

gst4• 15 years ago

I can only agree.

I plan to move to SF in the following months, but this is one of the issues why I think that I won't stay there permanently, but will move back to Europe after a few years.

jtbigwoo• 15 years ago

In my experience, big companies in the U.S. are often willing to negotiate on the number of vacation days issued. I negotiated 4 weeks of vacation/sick time + 6 holiday days at my last job. I took a a couple thousand dollars less than my target salary, but I was definitely happier.

Also, banks, educational institutions, and government offices are more generous when it comes to vacation days. Tech companies and ad agencies are generally the stingiest.

pavel_lishin• 15 years ago

I can't speak for the health care, but I imagine that you could have negotiated for better vacation time.

barrkel2• 15 years ago

It strongly depends on the company. Many companies use vacation time as a perk strictly for seniority, and are inflexible about changing it; or if you do get a break, you forego further increases until your seniority has "caught up".

It's pretty stupid, particularly since it's a fairly strong disincentive to relocate: precisely after you've moved away from friends and family, they give you less time to visit them. It was one of the biggest reasons I never moved to CA when I had the offer, H-1B, etc.

skittles• 15 years ago

I work for a company that doesn't have expiring vacation days. They are payed out at 100% at your current salary the day you quit, get fired, or retire. We have a large amount of employees that use this as an additional retirement account. I can't imagine banking all my vacation time!

barrkel2• 15 years ago

That's a dangerous strategy to rely on. The company may not ultimately be able to afford such payouts.

marshray5• 15 years ago

Do you have that in writing? I wonder if they think they could simply discontinue that policy.

Actually, I worked a a place that allowed you to "sell back" your vacation time as actual hours worked. They could be made to count for time-and-a-half overtime.

If you did that on a week that also had a company holiday, you'd kind of get into this triple-bonus-category. It was great until some guy sort of abused it and sold back a few weeks while also working a bunch of overtime over a two-holiday pay period.

AndyJPartridge2• 15 years ago

I think this old story is vey relevant here.

I have employees that take a lower salary than others, but have up to 7 weeks holiday a year. I'm happy with that. One employee that has 7 weeks holiday has only had 1 day sick in the 6 years I've employed him.

-- Sharpen the Saw --

Once upon a time a very strong woodcutter ask for a job in a timber merchant, and he got it. The paid was really good and so were the work conditions. For that reason, the woodcutter was determined to do his best. His boss gave him an axe and showed him the area where he was supposed to work.

The first day, the woodcutter brought 18 trees "Congratulations," the boss said. "Go on that way!" Very motivated for the boss’ words, the woodcutter try harder the next day, but he only could bring 15 trees. The third day he try even harder, but he only could bring 10 trees.

Day after day he was bringing less and less trees. "I must be losing my strength", the woodcutter thought. He went to the boss and apologized, saying that he could not understand what was going on. "When was the last time you sharpened your axe?" the boss asked. "Sharpen? I had no time to sharpen my axe. I have been very busy trying to cut trees..."

gst4• 15 years ago

Do you currently have any open positions? ;)

pstack12• 15 years ago

That kind of sounds like a metaphor for more training rather than vacation?

AndyJPartridge2• 15 years ago

I understand it to mean you should take time out in order to improve the overall quality of your work.

Be that training, a vacation, or the literal "sharpening of the axe."

nixy3• 15 years ago

I'm a Swedish developer. This year I have 7 weeks of vacation, and I plan to use it all. I normally get the 5 weeks required by law. Last year, I only used 4 of those 5 weeks, so one spilled over to this year. I also got a bonus week of vacation for working a lot of overtime last summer. So that makes 7 weeks.

tjogin• 15 years ago

Also please note that this is paid vacation we're talking about.

In Sweden, we have five weeks of vacation by law. And, the right to take four of those weeks consecutively.

nixy3• 15 years ago

Indeed. It's not only paid, but I get 112% of my normal salary during vacation because your living expenses increase when you're on holiday.

brazzy• 15 years ago

The latter is pretty nice - even in Germany, you only have a right to 2 consecutive weeks.

latj• 15 years ago

Hur kan man hitta ett jobb i Sverige? ;) Måste man talar svenska?

nixy3• 15 years ago

Hehe no, most often not. If you're a webguy, contact me (nixy at bede dot se). We're hiring in Stockholm! (The e-mail domain has nothing to do with the company, it is my private e-mail.)

geon2• 15 years ago

Most jobs are advertised at the government-run (but great) Platsbanken

google-translated: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&u=...

I cant imagine Swedish would be much of an issue if you work with software development. Even outside technology, most swedes speak english well enough for basic communication.

Still, if you get a work permit (easy), you get to attend free Swedish lessons.

lutorm• 15 years ago

Nej. At least, I'd bet. But it might make it easier.

yxhuvud6• 15 years ago

No. IT people tend to know more than enough english for english speakers to get along.

It also happen to be a huge lack of IT people on the market at the moment..

The flip side, of course, is that you have to survive our winters. :P

gst4• 15 years ago

Do US employers (especially startups) typically agree to agree to offer unpaid vacations? Or are those 0 to 10 or 15 days really a hard limit?

utefan001• 15 years ago

My employer is hiring and offers 5 weeks of vacation after the first year. Must be a US citizen. No remote work. http://woti.com/benefits.cfm http://woti.com/jobs.cfm

stefanobernardi• 15 years ago

That's really crazy, but it gives employers the chance to hire and retain the best talents not only with salary wars.

I still think that the major problem is that the US is one of the three only nations in the world that does not have paid maternity leave. Absurd.

thomasgerbe7• 15 years ago

Actually there are numerous companies in the U.S. that do have maternity leave. I used to work for an agency in NY that generally had less pay but more benefits.

jamii• 15 years ago

I know a fair few people who work one month on, one month off (pro rata, of course). Even in London or Hong Kong (not Tokyo) a competent developer can earn enough in 6 months to live on for 12.

Vivtek2• 15 years ago

America doesn't do vacation because of a mistaken understanding of the meaning of the word "productivity".

As long as you have management consultants who specialize in the single metric of productivity (i.e. number of dollars of profit vs. number of dollars spent on people making the profit), you will have miserable people.

bartonfink2• 15 years ago

American corporate culture seems to live by the motto "Don't think - measure!"

Vivtek2• 15 years ago

Well, in general, I'm in favor of measuring - "thinking" is often a buzzword that means jumping on whichever fad bandwagon you just saw in the airline magazine. It's picking what to measure where some thought is required.

drblast• 15 years ago

I've witnessed this. Counterintuitively, I think it's a side-effect of not understanding math.

To those without a good understanding of statistics, numbers and graphs are a mystical, magical way to easily improve just about anything.

patja2• 15 years ago

Taking control of my own schedule is in the top 5 list of reasons I quit being an employee 4 years ago (constant reorganization was number 1). Now I take all of August off, spend time volunteering in my daughters' classrooms during the day, get all of my errands done while the streets and shops are empty, and generally love life a lot more.

Anyone with dev skills can go independent or strike out with a group of like-minded souls to take control of their schedule. Sure there are downsides to working on your own, and it isn't all skittles and beer, but overall I find it well worth it.

farrel2• 15 years ago

How many Americans can only afford health coverage via their workplace plan?

How many Americans live in right-to-work states and can be dismissed without a reason?

Add that together and you have a lot of fear.

Bobby_Tables• 15 years ago

Nitpick: you're referring to at-will employment, not right-to-work. Right-to-work laws mean that you can't be forced to pay union dues as a condition of employment. At-will employment means that you can (theoretically) be fired or quit at any time for no reason.

farrel2• 15 years ago

You are correct sir.

hollerith2• 15 years ago

Though the two are related in that almost all of the employees that cannot be terminated at the employer's will are unionized. Even in the right-to-work states, almost all of the employees of governments and universities cannot be fired at will.

baconner• 15 years ago

The worst part of it IMO is that even if you could pay for insurance without your workplace plan huge numbers of Americans can't get it at all due to pre existing conditions. So this is a serious impediment to workers leaving stable jobs that they don't like to do things like found small startups or even just move to a new job that may not be as stable.

code_scrapping2• 15 years ago

Well, that's just sad. You do know that the rest of the world is having problems at finding a job at all, or at least getting paid on regular basis? Cry me a river.

GFischer2• 15 years ago

That isn't a constructive comment at all, not to mention untrue: here in Uruguay we have a record low unemployment, for example (and zero unemployment in IT).

Whether you'd be willing to work for my wage is another problem, but I do have 20 days' worth of paid vacations.

code_scrapping2• 15 years ago

You're right, I wasn't being constructive, but neither is this article if you consider that this isn't US-only. I'm also certain that millionaires also have a lot of personal problems, and yet also find little empathy from other people. I admit, I have not checked the current situation of Uruguay, or many other countries for that matter, yet I'm pretty certain that "I'm afraid to go on a vacation, my boss is treating me bad" is a personal and not a IT issue at all.

Want constructive comments - give constructive topics.

rmc6• 15 years ago

In many European countries if you don't take all your holidays, the company must pay you for them. So companies do not financially benefit if you work more, all they get are employees that are tired and overworked. This is why they would be keen for you to take all your holidays.

jister• 15 years ago

Sad but true.

Years back when I was working for an American employer, filing a leave seemed like taboo. I didn't understand it back then but when my wife got hospitalized, I filed for an emergency leave of course, my boss sent flowers with a note that goes something like this: "Hope your wife gets better yada yada...can you work while you're at the hospital?"

jquery5• 15 years ago

I had a boss like that. He texted me Christmas Eve, asking about progress on my latest project.

I quit a month later and found another company that gave me 6 weeks vacation (starting). And much better pay to boot.

MatthewB• 15 years ago

My employer gives the usual 2 weeks vacation for the first year of employment. Then, every year after that, you get an extra week up to 4 weeks paid vacation per year. Also, my employer is very vacation friendly in terms of requesting time off.

However, the biggest problem I have is actually taking the time off! I feel like I will miss too much work if I take a long vacation so I just take off a day or two here and there to "relax." And just like the article says I am always available via email on my cell phone and although I don't want to admit it, I am usually available on my computer as well.

henrikschroder3• 15 years ago

What do you mean "miss too much work" ?

Seriously, what's the worst that could happen if you're not there for a week or two?

pstack12• 15 years ago

His comment seems fairly self explanatory, to me. If you have five things to do every day and you do five things every day, you keep up. If you have five things to do every day and you don't do them for ten days, you have 55 things to do on the eleventh day.

matwood2• 15 years ago

I get 3 paid weeks of vacation per year. More would be nice, but unless I'm going to do something (spend a month in Europe for example) I get tired of being on vacation after a week or so. Also, when it comes to single days here and there my boss just tells me to take them. His way of hoping I pick up the phone on a Saturday when something breaks I guess :)

I recently travelled to to the UK and France for 16 days and was happy to return home. I had a great time on the trip, so maybe I'm weird for not wanting to be gone longer? If I actually lived in Europe more vacation might be nice because it's so easy/cheap to visit other countries.

adestefan2• 15 years ago

The thing about vacation time is remember to have enough to use for things other than a long vacation. I'll use a week of time for the Friday after Thanksgiving and some time around Christmas/New Years.

osks• 15 years ago

Vacation in Sweden (I think it's like this in other European countries as well, but I don't know for sure) doesn't always mean that you go away somewhere, or at least not for the entire vacation. Say if you have four continuous weeks of vacation during the summer (June to August here in Sweden), which is very common, you might be gone for a week or two, but spend the rest of the time at home.

Since almost everyone have the large part of their vacation during the summer, there is a good chance that some of your friends and family will have vacation at the same time, so you just relax and enjoy life for the rest of the time.

(Or you can just spend the entire vacation repainting your house and be stressed about all the stuff you have to do now that you have the time...)

matwood2• 15 years ago

Like I said above, maybe I'm weird :)

I can only relax for a few days before I get stir crazy. I need problems to solve and things to think about. It probably helps that I don't hate my job and have a lot of free time already. A long time ago I realized that I didn't want to be that person who lives for the couple times a year they get a vacation (even if you have 4 weeks I don't want to hate the other 48). Instead try to live in places where I'm on vacation all the time. Right now I'm in the mountains and at the end of the summer I'm moving back to the beach.

troels2• 15 years ago

So, in the field of software engineering where competition for employees is tough, is it really still common to give only 2 or 3 weeks vacation? Would it be considered outrageous to ask for 5 or 6 weeks of vacation when interviewing for a position, in Silicon Valley?

marshray5• 15 years ago

I don't know about SV in particular, but I've worked a several tech companies over the years.

Yes, usually HR can make exceptions. But you need a good reason, like "at my current job I have 3 weeks of leave accrued, I want to not lose that if I come work for you".

But having an engineer who accrues vacation at a different rate than other employees hired under the same circumstances would be quite exceptional. It would stand out in their records and they might not have a good way to justify their decision if they were questioned about it "why is troles taking so many vacations?".

During the hiring process, it's probably not a good idea to act exceptional in the amount of vacation you plan on taking! It would be easier to negotiate on salary.

gaius3• 15 years ago

On the contrary, there is no better time to negotiate than post offer, pre acceptance.

troels2• 15 years ago

Yes, I can see how an employer would have trouble justifying go give one employee more time off. It's a lot easier to hide differences in salary.

That said, if employers are serious about attracting talent, perhaps it wasn't a bad idea to offer more time off for everybody. I know that coming from a country where 6 weeks time off is the minimum, it would be a serious disincentive for me to want to work in the states.

rgrieselhuber• 15 years ago

When I was working for an employer, all I wanted was more vacation time so I could travel. Now that I am self-employed, I just get antsy when I'm on vacation.

What I've found works better for me is to take extended vacations every couple of years (a year here, 3 months there). This recharges my batteries for years at a time.

flexd• 15 years ago

We do not live to work, we work to live.

At least that is how I see it. I will work to keep me busy doing (hopefully) interesting things and to keep food on the table but in the end I work because I have to. We all do.

Wouldn't you rather work 6 months of the year and travel or do whatever you want the rest? I know I would.

smackay• 15 years ago

This topic is covered on a somewhat regular basis in The Economist - usnder different guises. One memorable comparison between Europe and the USA was that Americans work more so they can spend the occasional weekend on their expensive boat while Europeans are happier taking longer vacations on canoe trips.

code_duck• 15 years ago

The corporate overlords don't have time for us to enjoy ourselves. Is there any other explanation?

dhughes2• 15 years ago

It's no better in Canada the usual vacation time is two weeks with that increasing to three after maybe five years then after ten years it may go to four weeks but that's it it's extremely rare to see more than five weeks.

The years of service are calculated for full-time positions so if you worked at a company part-time for five years and then became full-time only then does the clock start to tick towards more vacation time.

In my job the summer is a busy time and vacations are blacked out from July to August the best times to go in a snowy country. The rest of the year the quiet time is used for projects which also mean no vacation.

Over six years each year I managed to get a week or two in, barely, but I've got 210 hours of vacation and 200+ hours of sick time (maxed out) that I can't use because I can never get time off. And I'm not allowed to take two weeks in a row either. Time to move on!

afterburner3• 15 years ago

Actually several sources show Canada is better than the US, although how much better depends on the source. This one below paints the rosiest picture I've seen for Canada, I've seen others show as few as 19 (for average) while show 14 for the US (same as below):

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922052.html

dhughes2• 15 years ago

That seems bizarre, any job I've ever had or anyone I know get two weeks vacation.

Anyone you ask wouldn't get any more than two weeks and self-employed seasonal workers such as farmers and fishermen may not get any vacation.

Silhouette• 15 years ago

The thing I find most interesting about this discussion is that we have not yet seen anyone from the US proudly claiming that by working harder they are more productive than the rest of us. I have seen similar conversations several times on various on-line forums in the past, and there was always a defensive/proud mindset from a significant group, even as those of us outside the US wondered if they realised how much their employers were abusing them.

Since the financial mess of the past couple of years showed that US productivity figures that seemed too good to be true really were just an illusion, I'm hoping that the mindset of the average US worker has become a bit more realistic and a bit less willing to accept (by international standards) abusively long hours and short vacations. It will be good for the workers, and I expect for their employers as well in the long run, since working with better rested and happier employees is one of the surest ways to improve productivity known to man.

Florin_Andrei• 15 years ago

It's a death spiral.

Work harder / longer - shift to extreme right-wing politics - slowly lose status as the "greatest nation in the world" - grit your teeth and work even harder / longer...

gaius3• 15 years ago

Left wing/right wing is a ridiculous argument. How much vacation do they get in North Korean factories?

yardie4• 15 years ago

The financial mess has created the exact opposite effect. Now, in the name of cost cutting and efficiency, employers are making people work more hours with less vacation time. No one complains and just go with the idea that, "at least I have a job".

ericdschmidt• 15 years ago

The United States has one of the very highest GDP (PPP) per hour worked in the world. Been that way for a long time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP... . It makes sense, given our massive capital stock. So working longer hours here would mean a lot more productivity.

I myself value leisure highly, though. I have a job as a software engineer at a large bank in New York. Right out of college, the bank allows me (and all other first-year developers) four weeks of vacation per year, and I'm taking full advantage of it. I like to travel.

Demand for software engineering talent is so strong right now in the United States that I'm surprised so many Americans on Hacker News feel they can't take a decent vacation. I'm sure if they spoke to their bosses they could work something out. You shouldn't be afraid to ask for a reasonable vacation.

Caballera• 15 years ago

I'm right there with you. I work for a small VoIP company as a support engineer and even we get decent vacation. Plus we work remotely 60% of the time. I've got it setup right now that ever 12 days of work I have 7 days off. Plus I have sick days and personal days. Which I don't need to use as I can just work from home (unless I'm so sick i can't work).

notJim• 15 years ago

Someone did actually make (roughly) that point[1], but it was since deleted.

[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2576325 is the thread that was sparked by this comment.

pstack12• 15 years ago

I don't necessarily think that lack of vacation makes you more productive (though I am still not convinced that taking ten days away from the office somehow makes you more productive for the other 255). I do, however, think that most employers will notice when you're gone. Especially for long periods of time. They may not necessarily notice that you're the guy who never is out of the office, but sometimes it's better not to be noticed at all than to be noticed as the guy who always triggers "OUT OF THE OFFICE UNTIL" autoreplies.

EiZei• 15 years ago

They might as well call this article Why is America the 'no-union nation'?

pnathan4• 15 years ago

I would not mind a split between paid and unpaid vacation. I see no reason (unless contractually specified) why a company should pay me for not working.

I don't live to work. I work to live.

hollerith2• 15 years ago

>I see no reason (unless contractually specified) why a company should pay me for not working.

Because you probably do not get a charge out of getting something for nothing -- but many do.

pnathan4• 15 years ago

Well, if someone wants to give me something for nothing, I'll take it. :D Please don't get me wrong. Donations are definitely accepted!

But I want to create win-win situations with my business relationships. If I am working for a company, they are getting my product, I am getting money (possibly benefits). If I am not working, e.g., I am dorking around in Mexico for a month on vacation, the company is not netting value out of me, and if they are paying me, that's a drain on their resources. I want my employer to be awesome, because as a member of that company, the awesomeness trickles down. :-)

siphr2• 15 years ago

Who linked this piece of crap and why is at the top? Utter nonsense! Whoever shared this, please consider opra winfrey websites or others of those sort.

beedogs• 15 years ago

good to see the new users raising the level of discourse here.

daniel-cussen• 15 years ago

I hear that people take substantially less vacation in East Asia.

mcdowall• 15 years ago

I get 23 days holiday entitlement plus UK bank holidays which this year thanks to Prince William adds on another 9 days.

Like some others however, I have dreamt about travelling long term so have handed my notice in, managed to secure some small freelance gigs and leave next wednesday for Bangkok, my holiday entitlement just wasn't enough ;)

Kratos• 15 years ago

Why is this on HN? Please, bring back the no politics rule. If you want to talk politics on the internets, there are plenty of other sites out there.

stephen_g• 15 years ago

Wow, that really is incredible... I really can't imagine not being able to take a week of vacation for fear of losing my job...

Do you guys in the US get time in lieu? My job is 40 hours a week, and if you work longer than that, you can take the time off later. So working fifteen minutes longer every day lets you have another week off (paid) every year, in addition to the four weeks paid holiday you get.

And since holiday time accumulates, you are encouraged to take most of it every year.

retroafroman• 15 years ago

Generally no. Most engineering jobs fall in the "salaried professional" category, which means that no over time is paid and that you're expected to work for 40 hours a week. I've seen a lot of nice managers allow employees to take some downtime after a stressful or overworked period, but there's not a standard policy at most jobs. Jobs where "punching the clock," usually hourly paid positions, can get a little closer to that, but usually only within a pay period. Example: if my friend puts in a little bit extra each day, he might leave early on Friday, but can't accrue that outside of the two week paycheck to paycheck period.

thomasgerbe7• 15 years ago

Yes.

While in NY, the company I worked at encouraged people to take comp days sooner rather than later.

I usually just accumulated a bunch of hours and took extended periods of time off.

gcb2• 15 years ago

There's no answer to that. there's no labor law in the US except from some payment and safety issues.

everything is negotiable.

i negotiated a little more in vacation then the other co-workers. Some other teams in the company can take time off based on the overtime they put in that month. My team doesn't have that. but if we work on some long issue, the manager usually gives an informal day off later.

jneal• 15 years ago

I guess I'm in the "lucky" category when it comes to paid time off. I work for a small company though, and I receive 5 holidays, 5 floating holidays, 5 sick days, and 5 weeks vacation. I could find a job that pays 10k more per year but offers not nearly as much vacation time - but I prefer the time off over the additional money.

wonderyak2• 15 years ago

Very simply, this country was founded by people with the Protestant Work Ethic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic and it has become a part of our national identity.

lispm2• 15 years ago

I live in the more protestant part of Germany, Hamburg. People here get the same vacation (the company I work for has 28 days paid vacation for its employees). The only difference is that we have a few days less public holidays than in the catholic regions.

wonderyak2• 15 years ago

It really isn't so much the religious aspect of Protestantism but the work ethic associated with early American settlers and the lack of fun they believed in. There is a really wonderful book by Harriet Beecher Stowe which outlines the lives of these people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Town_Folks

yxhuvud6• 15 years ago

I do not think it is that, since the parts europe that is protestantic have more vacation than the catholic parts, in average.

danssig6• 15 years ago

"Protestant work ethic" is the term we use for a specific group of people who happened to also be protestant. And it very much is the case. You hear it in nearly every person you talk to.

wheels3• 15 years ago

This was one of the major draws for me for moving to Europe in my early 20s (from the US). After working one year in the US and having one week of vacation, it was bordering on surreal to have 6.

That said, most Americans wouldn't like the European pay scales. While a developer gets 3-6 times the vacation in Germany, they make half as much money.

For me it was a great trade; I still had a middle class income and spent my 20s bouncing around the world visiting more than 30 countries on 5 continents, with zero gaps in my employment.

Now that I'm an employer, I still see it as a great trade: employees are a lot cheaper here, and seem to be happier. But again, while most American software developers would love to have more vacation, I've heard them also repeat ludicrous things about how they can "barely survive on $60k/year".

colomon• 15 years ago

That's what's so surreal about this entire discussion. "I have 7 weeks paid vacation!" as if employers were paying them for 52 weeks' work and then were shocked every year to discover that they only get 45 weeks of work.

david9273• 15 years ago

That's not true. Europe is very regional in its pay structures. You can make very little in Berlin, move to Frankfurt or Brussels and make a fortune. The same is true in the States: what you make in Palo Alto is multiples more than Cleveland. I don't see that pay rates have anything to do with vacation allowances.

mapgrep2• 15 years ago

The reason American workers say they can barely survive on $60k a year is that they pay out of pocket for things German workers can take for granted:

* Comfortable retirement - 401k contributions. Yes America has social security but it's not a ton of money compared to other national pensions and if you're young you worry about it not being around at all by the time you need it.

* Unemployment - You should probably have ~6 months living expenses saved up, if not a year, in case you get laid off. U.S. unemployment benefits are fairly marginal (~700 per month cap when I used them in 2002, which you owe tax on), especially compared to Germany/France.

* Life insurance - If you have kids and/or a non working spouse you need to make sure they will be OK if you die, since we have such a weak social safety net.

* Education for your kids - 529 and educational IRA plans allow people to save for our increasingly expensive higher education even before the child is born (I-Bonds can be used this way). Cuts to public colleges have been harsh this year so don't think those will save you.

Yes many Americans blow their salaries on dumb consumerist crap, and tend to overinvest in things like real estate. But even the prudent ones will be trying to jack up their salaries because there are SO many things you are supposed to save for to be considered a responsible American adult.

chrisaycock3• 15 years ago

And not to mention:

* Healthcare - Health insurance is often a luxury in America. The elderly have Medicare, but there is (currently) no safety for most citizens.

* Public transportation - Many US cities don't have adequate bus service. Just anyone who lives outside NYC or a college town will need a car.

nolok• 15 years ago

Question to non-french here, does your advertised salary include the employer's tax ?

For exemple here in France, on the salary my employer pays, it's divided pretty much like this: 40% employer's taxes, 20% employee's taxes, 40% final amount of money you put in the bank when all is said and done.

BUT my negociated salary, the one I signed on, never included employer's taxes, so for a 100€ salary I never discussed 100€ or even thought of it at any point, my contract has always been about 60€ (and then I pay about 20€ in taxes).

For me what that really changes is that:

- if employer's taxes increses, I have no idea about it, and my pay check doesn't change at all (neither if it decreases)

- our perceived salary seems to be a lot lower than some other countries.

So what I'm asking is, when you guys speak about that kind of salary being way too low, is it a "complete" salary or is it after employer's taxes ? I live with less that those 60k$/42k€ and I can afford a nice middle class life in the middle of Paris plus vacations every year ...

PS: actually if you look at french job offers, you will see "brut" and/or "net" salaries, brut is pre employee's taxes, net is post.

whakojacko• 15 years ago

In the US, yes. The various taxes that employers must pay are paid separately, not taken out of their salary. If someone is talking about $60k or whatever, their takehome is $60k-federal income tax - social security tax - medicare tax - state income tax (some states don't have this, but most do)- local income tax (rare). On top of that, you are also likely going to have deductions for health/dental/etc insurance, and then pre-tax payments to your retirement plan (401k).

Separately, the company must pay a few other taxes on that $60k (nowhere near 40%, though)

ronaldj• 15 years ago

In the US advertised salaries don't include personal income tax (local and federal), insurance, social security, medicare, 401k, and any other fees you might incur.

At the top of your paycheck you would see your 'advertised' earnings for that period and then at the bottom you have your take home net pay. Depending on your location, you loose around 20% of your 'advertised' pay to taxes and other mandatory things. If you contribute to a 401K you loose even more.

canadiancreed3• 15 years ago

I know that salaries in Canada are advertised in what you would make before taxes/CPP/EI, which usually come out to 17-26% less for most mere mortals.

dsmithn• 15 years ago

I've managed to get the best of both worlds, working for a German company in America. 28 paid days off, plus 7 holidays.

pnathan4• 15 years ago

housing costs are amazingly obscene in some cities. Based on my minimal looking around, the cost of living is going to account for a lot of those "barely survive" stories.

That plus nice cars, eating out, and buying iPads.

richcollins• 15 years ago

Or you could be a contract developer in the US, make 2x US employee salary and take vacation whenever you don't have an active project (months if you want).

canadiancreed3• 15 years ago

With the only caveat being to get that next contract.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, it is the way to go. You just need the constant stream of work, which is easier said then done.

r00fus2• 15 years ago

You can do similar in Europe as well. At least when I was there, many of my colleagues at Schneider Electric were contractors making decent money (even for US rates).

Actually being a contractor in a country with good social safety net is even better... as you're employment isn't responsible for healthcare benefits* , your options are much better.

* France has a public/private deal where you (or your employer) can pay extra for better service, but the baseline social safety net is quite ample.

tallanvor• 15 years ago

Pay varies widely in Europe. I work in Norway, get 6 weeks vacation a year, and make a lot more than I would in the US. Even after accounting for higher taxes and living expenses (rent, food, etc), I can still set aside almost $1000 more per month than I would if I were in the US.

When I talk to people for the first time they're always asking me if I'll be moving back to the US. My response is maybe someday, but for now I'd be crazy to give all that up!

Aloisius• 15 years ago

If the US had the culture of taking off August, it would be far easier to take off 3 weeks since everyone in your company would be doing it. Logistically however I don't really understand how taking August off works in Europe. Where does everyone go? Doesn't it get super crowded?

yardie4• 15 years ago

Most of the French head south to the riviera, or north to brittany, basically any place with a beach nearby.

The roads are packed so you'll usually see a traffic report with them interviewing people taking a picnic on the side of the road, complete with wine and cheese of course. Also, its part of the draw. When there is a known crowd coming most of the hotels and restaurants pull out all the stops: foods, drinks, live entertainment. A lot of these seaside towns can be quite sleepy during the winter so its sort of a big deal.

And, quite a few of my colleagues have family that moved south for the warmer weather, some just head out to visit family.

Goladus• 15 years ago

That sounds like a large-scale version of what happens every summer weekend in New England as Boston and its suburbs head to the cape.

fosk• 15 years ago

Every year in Italy there are 16M people moving to the coasts on August (for 2-3 weeks), and then moving back to cities at the end of the month. This happens mostly on August, but the same happens for Christmas (for 1-2 weeks), Easter (for 3-4 days, sometimes 1 week) and Carnival (for 3-4 days - before Easter, usually in February). The number of days depends on "bridge days", if Easter falls on Wed, then usually people can relax from Mon to Thu ("bridge" because links the end of the previous week to the end of the fest).

These are the average numbers, for sure there's someone with less/more vacation.

yxhuvud6• 15 years ago

Most people stay at home or in their summer residence for most of the time.

tptacek• 15 years ago

Relative to cost-of-living, are wages the same, lower, or higher in countries with mandatory paid vacations? One wonders whether there's a delusive "free lunch" notion underpinning Euro vacation policy, whether governments really can force companies to pay everyone more for the same level of output, or whether Euro economies have discovered an effective way to engineer a more efficient labor force by attempting to outlaw burnout.

Because, at the end of the day, the company is buying completed-and-sold widgets for their salary dollar. All things being equal (including widget output), if the company pays you $50k a year and gives you 4 more "paid" vacation weeks, they gave you a raise. You can mandate 2, 4, or 8 weeks of vacation, but --- at least in middle class jobs --- you can't really mandate a salary floor.

mikeleeorg• 15 years ago

Out of curiosity, anyone know if sabbaticals common in Europe?

A software developer I know worked tirelessly for 4 years at a large corporation before burning out. He may have taken a week off here & there, but was always answering his emails.

He finally requested a sabbatical. Those are rare and very tough to get, but his manager fought for him and off he went. He returned refreshed, though he left the job shortly thereafter (which is a major reason why that company made it tough to request a sabbatical).

I'm just curious if the same kind of phenomenon occurs in Europe.

wazoox• 15 years ago

AFAIK sabbatical are quasi exclusive to US and Canada. I never knew anyone in Europe going for a sabbatical.

Ras_• 15 years ago

In Finland we have a practice called vuorotteluvapaa (work sharing). It is commonplace for people nearing middle age. For example my mother used vuorotteluvapaa to do deaconess studies to complement her nursing degree. Work sharing requires that your employer hires someone who is registered as unemployed to fill in "your shoes".

To get work share you need to have worked at least 10 years of which at least 13 months to your current employer. You can work share for a minimum of 90 days and maximum of 359 days. Compensation is 70-80% of what your unemployment benefit (25.74€ base per day + 45% of your normal day's earnings) would be.

yxhuvud6• 15 years ago

Here in Sweden we are allowed to do it, but it generally isn't done.

Though we have a guy at work that have managed to convince our employer to give hime an extra day off every week (without pay though, but he doesn't need the cash)

mcantelon• 15 years ago

"Century of the Self" is a great documentary on how the American population has been socially engineered by corporations.

wlll• 15 years ago

You can (legitimately) download "Century of the Self" here:

Part 1: http://www.archive.org/details/AdaCurtisCenturyoftheSelf_0 Part 2: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPar... Part 3: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPar... Part 4: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPar...

siphr2• 15 years ago

I can second this. It is one of those documentaries that you need to see at least once before you die. Very informative.

JonnieCache• 15 years ago

This description makes these docs sound like they come from the conspiratorial wing of filmmaking. (no insult implied mcantelon.)

However, they are in fact some of the most important pieces of film I have ever watched, and Adam Curtis is one of the greatest documentary makers ever.

I encourage you to watch all these, then go and watch all his other works, starting with the Power of Nightmares.

macrael• 15 years ago

I've found this is something that really surprises Europeans. But, once, when I was comparing notes with some travelers in a hostel in New Zealand, we asked a South Korean among us for his perspective. He said that he and everyone he knows gets maybe 2 days paid vacation a year. They work most weekends and get maybe 1 holiday. He said if you want to travel, you have to quit your job to do it, with no guarantee you will get another when you get back.

This changed my perspective. The difference between that and the States' 10ish days off is much greater than the difference between us and Europe. It is hard for me to imagine. Can anyone else with knowledge of East Asia chime in? Was this guy's experience representative? If so, it is a bit silly to call America the "no vacation nation." We do get vacation.

yardie4• 15 years ago

I'm not sure how common this is but "vacation" for the few Japanese and Chinese tourists I've met is usually done as a work retreat. For example, your division has met or exceeded its objectives for the year? Congratulations! you're all going to Hawaii for a week. I assume this is how compensation is done there.

While vacationing in Hawaii I read an article about the massive logistics it took to host about 10 million Amway sales reps from China. The visa and hotel backlog was insane so it took about 2 years from when they were promised to when they were actually delivered that company paid vacation.

afterburner3• 15 years ago

According to this source, the average number of paid vacation days in Korea (presumably South Korea) is 25 days:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922052.html

I'm actually kind of surprised at how good the Canadian number is compared to the US (I'm in Canada). But now that I think about it, I do get 3 weeks plus stat holidays (about 1 week) and a December company shutdown (another 4 days or so). I haven't been shy about asking for unpaid days off either.

thomasgerbe7• 15 years ago

This is pretty common. A lot of places in Chinatown in Toronto are open on holidays. My parents (who are Asian) also don't take vacation unless it's a federal holiday.

Tsagadai• 15 years ago

I work in South Korea as a software developer for an RnD startup. The legal requirement for paid holidays in (most) contracts is 10 paid days plus public holidays. Public holidays are not really considered holidays by many as there is a very strong compulsion to spend it with your extended family instead of "going anywhere". They don't carry over unused days from what I can grasp from the laws (in Korean).

That said, people are discouraged from taking holidays in many companies, especially large Chaebol-style companies. I know a few people who work 6 days a week, 10 hours a day with two holidays a year and one of them must be a Sunday. Competition, for everything, is far more intense here than it was in Australia or the US.

fady• 15 years ago

american - working for a company i love, but i find it hard to even write long articles on HN because of the fear of "slacking"..i would love to elaborate more and explain why im slowing starting my own web design co for my traveling laptop days i so dream about....

sdizdar• 15 years ago

For software companies (and probably to all other industries which hire 'knowledge workers'), it should be very important to give enough of vacation time to their employees (developers).

For me that is no brainier, but unfortunately, very few hi-tech companies actually understand that. So you have high-rate of "burn outs" which cause all kind problems (bugs, bad design decisions, etc.). The management mantra is still: The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Also, I was surprised how it is very hard to find a hi-tech company offering something like unpaid sabbatical leave or fulltime sabbatical replacement position (i.e., programmer working in sales for one or two months). Some banks and hedge funds do that.

fedd• 15 years ago

in Russia we have approx. 4 weeks of paid vacations which don't expire if you dont use them, people work from 9 to 6 with 45 mins for lunch, and from 9 to 4:45 on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays (40 hrs work week). If national holidays fall onto workdays, there's an extra day off. Mostly this is observed now, administration tend to force people go on vacation to make accounting simpler. For several years we had Christmas vacations from 1 to 10th of January.

now a joke story as it is told in Russia.

at one company people worked their asses off very hard, came earlier, left later, sometimes worked until 9 or 10 to meet goals in the plan. and suddenly one man started to appear at 9, leave an 6 and didn't appear on Saturday and Sunday when the deadline was near. colleagues started to look at him with blame, and finally told him, who the fuck you think you are? why you so relaxed when we are tearing our asses? - oh, sorry guys, its a real shame, - he replied, - but i am on a vacation

xbryanx• 15 years ago

This is one of the reasons I love my technology work at a non-profit. Sure I make lots less, but they are extremely generous with paid time off. Our institutional culture encourages people taking vacations, and while we have serious tight deadlines, people still support a healthy life-work balance.

samlevine• 15 years ago

Does anyone else here prefer to have shorter vacations and higher pay? I've taken a few vacations in my life and they've tended to be less fun than working (at least after the first 3 days. Before that it's awesome).

camiller13• 15 years ago

well..... as long as we are being truthful, after 10 days vacation with a wife and two kids getting back to work is a relief. I'm often more stressed by vacation than work, but one of my children has "special needs" and despite the fact that I love him with all my heart, the constant monitoring what he eats, what he is doing, if he has craped himself, etc. takes a lot out of a vacation. That said, next year in February I'm taking a 2 week trip to South America with just my daughter and meeting up with some cousins and other extended family from both the states and Ecuador and Panama. My south American cousins I haven't seen in thirty years. I'm very much looking forward to it. ( and on that note, I think I'll have to post a "ask HN" on language learning options to brush up on my 25 years forgotten high school Spanish (if one doesn't exist already).

Confusion• 15 years ago

I work at a (bootstrapped) European startup. In june, one of the founders takes a month of vacation. In july, the other does the same. As an employee, I'm entitled to 5 weeks off. Sick leave does not subtract from that. Every American reader probably thinks we will never make it. European readers would consider insane if we did without that time off. That's how ingrained this vacation business is. And if you ask me, we are happier and more productive than we would be without those vacations.

speleding• 15 years ago

Allow me to air a dissenting opinion, since everyone here seems to make fun of those poor US workaholics.

I think the low number of vacation days is just a side effect of Americans not having such a strict compartmentalization between "work" and "life". I worked on both sides of the Atlantic and although I settled in Europe now I actually like the US work ethic, the low number of vacation days notwithstanding.

For many Europeans work is something they do to have bread on the table and the "real" life is that part you're not working. For many Americans their work is their life and the free time they have gets intermingled with work (they take the kids to the company barbecue! never heard of that happening in Europe).

But if most of your waking moments are spent doing something which is not your primary objective than you could say the Europeans are the sad ones.

(Side note: I am now in the happy position that I enjoy running my own company, I might feel different if I had a lousy job)

pstack12• 15 years ago

Thank you. I am my work and I live to work and I'm tired of people treating me like some sort of pariah, because of it. The only thing I will spend more time doing in my life besides working is sleeping and that thing I do and how well I do it greatly defines me. I am not just the man who exists between the few hours after work and before bed and if others are, then I'm sorry for them. (I understand that isn't everyone - many people do love what they do and care about the work they make with their lives, but still enjoy the lengthy break now and then).

madeinindia• 15 years ago

All you folks must seriously consider moving to India. Its a vibrant country with a lot of energy. Software Engineers get above than average market salaries. With a decent salary one can afford a great life style here. It also servers as an excellent laboratory where you can test/prototype and implement your ideas.

alexjgough• 15 years ago

Exactly. I'm bright and awesome, but this one thing puts me off moving to the USA.

andrewcross• 15 years ago

This is very similar to an article that made it to the first page yesterday: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2573664

Still, the more awareness that this topic gets, the better!

pstack12• 15 years ago

After seven years with my company, I was finally earning the highest amount of vacation hours per pay check, up to 15 days per year. In my fifteen year career, as an adult, I've never taken a vacation and I don't really have any interest in doing so. I currently have about 300 hours of vacation banked. I'm at the limit, so unless I use some of that time, I won't earn any more. That's okay, because . . . I don't have any use for a vacation. I don't use sick days, either (I know a lot of people use their three or five allotted sick days from their company as personal time).

I guess if I was digging ditches for a living, I'd want all the paid vacations I could possibly have. However, I work with computers and technology for a living and I love computers and technology. So . . you know . . . why would I want to take time off from doing something I enjoy?

Not to mention, after I die, nobody is going to remember me fondly for the vacations I took, so I could sit in the sun and cook my skin next to a chlorinated pool in another country. They're going to remember me for any work ethic, personality, and accomplishments I had.

vacri2• 15 years ago

If that's all you think vacations are, no wonder you don't take them.

My housemate is in Africa for 10 days with her mother at the moment. Another friend is going to Vietnam for two weeks shortly. Both of these ventures open the travelers up to new experiences and broaden not only their horizons, but mine by proxy. I can guarantee you that I will remember their trips to foreign lands more than I remember them spending another week in their jobs.

I actually find it a little sad that you seem to think that broadening your perspective is worthless (ie: "here I am, why ever look elsewhere?")

pstack12• 15 years ago

I've actually traveled a great deal (in my youth, including two years in Zambia and Kenya) and while it's not something I enjoy overall (for all the usual travel hassles, plus I'd rather spend my time earning money rather than spending it), I understand that your friend does. I don't know that there is anything particularly "perspective broadening" about it in a world that has grown so close together through technology and communication, but I'm sure she'll have plenty of memories and experiences from it. Memories and experiences don't necessarily have inherent value. They have personal value.

I enjoy working. I enjoy that every week, I get to do technically creative and very detailed and complex things with people who are all over the planet. China, Japan, India, Australia, all over the UK, France, the Vatican, Israel, Brazil, Canada, Germany, Singapore and many others. Granted, taking time away from work makes you look bad, so not doing that is a point in my favor -- but I truly enjoy my work. I also enjoy that it allows me to own a home, have plans to buy my childhood home so it can stay in the family some day, put my siblings through college, help with financial support and technical guidance of my friends' businesses and projects, contribute to worthy causes, and someday potentially retire.

Then again, if I have to die "young", I want to be one of those Karōshi deaths where they go out slumped over a pile of spreadsheets and whitepapers on their desk. So . . . take my preferences with a grain of salt, if you like.

danssig6• 15 years ago

It sounds to me like no one is going to remember you at all. Are you working for your own company? If not it sounds like your whole life is nothing more than making some rich people even richer. If you are remembered at all, it will be for being the miserable person with no life who was literally at work every day. You'll make a great anti-role model.

vetler• 15 years ago

Move to Norway - the best place to live according to the UN: http://goo.gl/012ea

Just be aware that while it might be a good place to live, Norwegians find lots to complain about anyway. Also, it's definitely not the most exciting place to live. You'll earn enough to buy a place to live, have kids and spend your five weeks of paid vacation somewhere warmer.

FWIW, I've met Americans who have moved here because of our socialist values (yes, socialist... it's not a curse word where I come from ;)), and are pretty happy about it.

hessenwolf6• 15 years ago

No heathcare, no vacation, can get fired with no notice, crap public transport, astronomical crime rate, dubious legal freedoms.

Why is it you guys pay your government again?

evilbit• 15 years ago

Liberation/spreading democracy :)

hessenwolf6• 15 years ago

Yes... I forgot to mention education. How much did my 24 years of education cost me? Squat.

waqf3• 15 years ago

High salaries; cheap consumer goods; teenagers on the street are polite, and shop assistants can count and spell.

But that's all I can think of. And you missed "slow broadband".

hessenwolf6• 15 years ago

Okay - 1 and 2 make sense; teenagers: are they really polite? my sarcasm detector is off - if comparing it to the scumbag quotient of the British Isles then I totally see where you are coming from; can shop assistants count and spell better?

danssig6• 15 years ago

I don't find the salaries that high in practice (depends heavily on where you live), teenagers on the street are anything but polite and I don't know what you mean about counting and spelling. I do know that every time I've been in a store that lost power I wasn't able to check out because no one in the store knew how to assess the taxes.

Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

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