Goldman Sachs Is Setting Up a Cryptocurrency Trading Desk

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-21/goldman-is-setting-up-a-cryptocurrency-trading-desk

by chollida1 • 9 years ago

346 466 9 years ago

bloomberg.com

johnwheeler• 9 years ago

Great. Now we’re on the path to making this a systemic risk.

QAPereo2• 9 years ago

Oh good, I was worried that the BC bubble bursting wouldn’t have enough negative effects on the economy at large.

(/s)

reefoctopus• 9 years ago

Why do you think it would have any effect? It’s still a comparatively tiny market.

notyourday11• 9 years ago

It won't. GSCO will price counter-party risk into the spread.

If GSCO is serious its coders will write code to run against crypto-APIs at the speed unseen by the "My exchange run on Rails" crowd.

sedtrader• 9 years ago

Going to need some rules and regulations. Last thing we need are big banks overleveraging on crypto currencies for the excess return. When, not if, this bubble bursts hopefully it doesn't take the whole economy down with it. The whole financial market wants exposure to crypto at this point.

stuffedBelly2• 9 years ago

burst of ICO bubble likely won't take down the whole economy. BTC contracts are high return + extremely high risk, which are typical traits of junk bonds, meaning they won't be treated as investment-grade securities.

nerdponx• 9 years ago

OK, except we've all heard that one before.

nullbyte4• 9 years ago

You can't regulate cyptocurrencies. That's the beauty of the whole thing.

pmlnr2• 9 years ago

Hell you can. For example, you can make exchanges illegal. Done.

occamrazor2• 9 years ago

But you can regulate how banks can invest their money.

fasquoika• 9 years ago

The government has literally regulated cryptography before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_Wars

tim3335• 9 years ago

I'm not sure any banks have crypto on their balance sheets so you may be a bit ahead of things there.

victor106• 9 years ago

They typically do this for a few reasons:

1. High net worth clients demanding such products. 2. Obvious FOMO. 3. In case this crypto thing becomes big they don’t want to be criticized. 4. All companies are seeing a nice bump in their share prices with any association to crypto

frgtpsswrdlame5• 9 years ago

HNWIs are definitely starting to talk about and ask for crypto products.

EDIT: I work in the area, not a shill.

charlesdm5• 9 years ago

Best performing asset class over the last few years. Even if it is a bubble, you might as well allocate a few %'s of your portfolio to it if you're wealthy..

cantrip• 9 years ago

This kind of covers every conceivable case for doing this. If you list enough reasons you're bound to be right on one of them.

tw1010• 9 years ago

It's only four items. I appreciated the enumeration.

philwelch2• 9 years ago

It covers the sober and reasonable cases. I think the main thing this enumeration does is to provide alternatives to the hyperbolic notion of “cryptocurrency/blockchain is taking over the world and even the big investment banks are going in on it”, with either the bullish “this means it’s a real economic revolution” or the bearish “this means we’re at the peak of the bubble and the big banks are losing their minds and threatening the world economy again” subtexts to it.

headmelted2• 9 years ago

Mostly I think it's 1.

A lot of people jump on guys like Jamie Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein for calling Bitcoin massively volatile / a bubble / whatever, like they hate cryptocurrencies.

They don't care, and they aren't supposed to. Their business is to sell whatever the customer wants to buy, cheaper or easier than they can get it elsewhere - and right now the customer wants to buy Bitcoin. Who cares if the backside falls out of it later?

52-6F-622• 9 years ago

Don't forget Jamie Dimon's company is founding their own blockchain for transactions, Quorum.

https://www.jpmorgan.com/global/Quorum

cm21875• 9 years ago

They got burned by doing the same with subprimes, selling securities to clients who requested them but in which they did not believe themselves (and were shorting at the same time). This sort of move carries a significant reputation risk. I am sure not everyone at GS believes in crypto-currencies, there must be a lot of internal emails in the style "this is a pyramid scheme", "this thing will crash", etc... Reminds me a lot of 2007.

adamnemecek• 9 years ago

They kinda do cause at that point they didn't have a slice of the pie.

bogomipz• 9 years ago

I think the same but its, 1 because of 2 i.e high net-wroth clients fear of missing out.

workthrowaway274• 9 years ago

They are just making markets, so it's sort of 1 and 2. I say sort of because it means clients want to trade cryptocurrencies. They aren't necessarily high net worth individuals though. My guess is most clients are institutional, though it might be different with people wanting to trade cryptocurrencies. It's FOMO if you think not wanting to lose money to your competitors is FOMO. I'd say it's more just performing one of their job functions.

I doubt they care about being criticized and until GS releases Goldman Coin I doubt they're trying to get a share price bump from this.

twic2• 9 years ago

It's not entirely clear to me whether "making markets" means on exchanges, or over the counter. The term normally means on an exchange; over the counter, you're a dealer rather than a market maker.

If it's on exchanges, then it has nothing to do with high net worth clients, or any other kind of client, because they won't be trading with their clients specifically, they'll be trading with other market participants.

if it's OTC, then it could be part of a package of services for clients. That would still a bit weird, though, because a bank would normally act as a broker rather than a dealer for its clients - going to the market and finding them the best price, rather than making its own price.

I think that their reason is much simpler: they think they can make money doing it. I guess you could call that FOMO. But basically, they think that with their trading instincts, technology, and famously huge brains, they can move their prices around so that they can buy low and sell high without getting, as we say in the trade, their faces ripped off.

qaq2• 9 years ago

"They are just making markets" are you seriously implying GS and JPM are just making markets :)?

indescions_2017• 9 years ago

Also. This past year to date has evinced all time historical low volatility in major currency crosses. Difficult to make the case based on sheer volume that fiat is being abandoned for crypto. But players hunting for alpha tend to go where the action is:

Traders Lament Death of FX Volatility as Torpor Tanks Returns

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-10/traders-l...

notyourday11• 9 years ago

This is going to be an end of the current generation of exchanges, and, most likely, future generation of exchanges:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15973721

aviv2• 9 years ago

So much for the promised currency / store-of-value that can't be manipulated by banks / governments.

tootie5• 9 years ago

Isn't it mostly being manipulated by drug traffickers and money launderers right now?

nullbyte4• 9 years ago

Wow, you're behind the curve, aren't you.

maxencecornet• 9 years ago

mmm Yeah, it was true like 5 years ago

Tech moves fast, you know ?

nullbyte4• 9 years ago

They won't be able to manipulate cyptocurrencies.

jonpo• 9 years ago

"Chancellor on brink of second bailout"...The animals, watching through the window, realize with a start that, as they look around the room of the farmhouse, they can no longer distinguish which of the cardplayers are pigs and which are human beings.

nhooyr• 9 years ago

Read that book for the first time this year. Loved it :)

1undo• 9 years ago

Welp pretty much knew this would happen all along. I was hoping crypto would remain independent of banks, but nope. Not long before big banks take over crypto exchanges, develop dark pools, and manipulate it. Not much we can do now

pmlnr2• 9 years ago

crypto would remain independent of banks

Only if you make a crypto that runs on any device, needs tiny amounts of energy and therefore is impossible to take over.

defo_nonconvex• 9 years ago

Isn't Coinbase a dark pool? Off-chain transactions seem like order internalization to me...

kregasaurusrex2• 9 years ago

I'm sort of surprised there's going to be a regulated secondary market for this, where the newest version of the GOP Tax plan will place a fee on this form of arbitrage[1]. Then again, I did learn today that a hot wallet I had on a crypto-trading website had folded and didn't send me any notice of shutdown; along with the time period of filing a claim having been long passed. Since there's a lot of theft and lack of accountability with these closures, maybe regulation could incentivize better data protection practices and pro-consumer behavior.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-21/tax-free-...

Chardok• 9 years ago

maybe regulation could incentivize better data protection practices and pro-consumer behavior.

Perhaps I am too cynical but given Equifax is still fresh on my mind I really have doubts the US government will do anything but pass laws to make sure they are getting taxes from cryptocurrencies.

kregasaurusrex2• 9 years ago

While Equifax is a quasi-governmental company that's privately traded; fully private companies that are regulated in the space are required under the umbrella watch of FINRA/SEC regulations. In the past[1], they have not had any problem with levying 7 figure fines against organizations that are outside of data compliance.

Taxing cryptocurrencies will likely push traders who want a greater margin to foreign countries' exchanges; but I see it as a step in the right direction for institutionalizing the practice. I've seen a posts across multiple subreddits where people want to start trading these purely as investment vehicles rather than use the underlying technology. With an influx of ideologies working both with and against one another, a lot of ordinary people can get harmed from the wild-west environment and volatility associated with it.

[1]https://www.sec.gov/news/pressrelease/2016-112.html

dahdum2• 9 years ago

It's not a new fee, IRS gave guidance on this already in 2014. The bill just updates the language more specifically.

Believing crypto-crypto trades would be like-kind was always pretty fanciful thinking.

pmc1• 9 years ago

My best guess is that the "store-of-value that can't be manipulated by banks" is effectively over. Big banks it seems will take over the trading volume of the big crypto coins and develop their own exchanges.

nullbyte4• 9 years ago

They may be able to partially manipulate the price, but they can't influence the currency or money supply. That's the beauty of crypto.

philwelch2• 9 years ago

The price is everything. You don’t need to defeat cryptography to manipulate BTC any more than you need alchemy to manipulate the gold market: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(1869)

AnimalMuppet5• 9 years ago

If they can't influence the money supply, but can influence its price, what difference does it make?

aviv2• 9 years ago

Doesn't matter one single bit. Goldman Sachs can't mine gold and control its physical supply, but they sure can play with its market price. So they can drive down the futures price and then hoard physical bullion on the cheap if they have a large institution or country wanting to accumulate gold reserves. Rinse, repeat. Finance 101.

vkou6• 9 years ago

Right now, this store-of-value is being manipulated by whales and exchanges. Bitfinex has allowed illegal wash trading for months, there is evidence that points to insider trading on Coinbase, it's entirely possible that exchanges have been front-running their customers...

etr-strike7• 9 years ago

The market is more free and open with Bitcoin than our own stock markets. Bitfinex and Coinbase are just two of hundreds of exchanges. There's even localbitcoins, which allows you to trade directly with the other party. The ecosystem has come a very long ways and is the freest market in the world.

pjc502• 9 years ago

Guess the end of the run isn't in sight yet.

bob_theslob646• 9 years ago

Where there is money to be had , you best believe their will be Goldman Sachs!

pjc502• 9 years ago

Oops: since writing this post bitcoin has fallen by 25%. This is why I've not gone anywhere near investing in it.

tootie5• 9 years ago

Can someone explain this collective mania to me? This is all 100% pure speculative frenzy, right?

LargeWu• 9 years ago

Yes

junkscience20173• 9 years ago

amateurs like Coinbase might speculate, but pros like GS use the Federal Reserve as their backstop

its one of those "heads I win, tails you lose" scenarios...GS will keep the profits but if things go south, their losses can just be taken out of your local school budget

m777z• 9 years ago

Explain for those not in the know, like me. I thought Goldman repaid their TARP bailout money?

sqldba• 9 years ago

Idiocracy.

etr-strike7• 9 years ago

Most of us Bitcoiners are skeptical of modern monetary policy and want a risk-free store of value for our wealth. Today Bitcoin is very risky, however, we believe its fundamental properties will ultimately lead to a stable place to put our savings. Sure, it won't gain interest or dividends but it also won't be subject to inflation or central banker manipulation.

The above is purely my opinion and is frequently the subject of disagreement. It is, however, why I got into bitcoin.

mulmen5• 9 years ago

If Bitcoin is not inherently stable why do you think it will become stable in the future? Do you believe it is subject to manipulation by parties other than central bankers? I don't understand this line of thinking but I am not an expert so I am curious to hear your perspective.

randomsearch• 9 years ago

So why bitcoin rather than another cryptocurrency?

If another becomes more popular, everyone shifts to it, and the price crashes, what use was bitcoin as a store of value?

The difference with other assets like cash or gold is that they have value that is supported by a clear rationale based on a central bank’s economic policies.

tim3335• 9 years ago

95% speculative frenzy, 5% building the financial framework of the future. It's a bit like the dot com boom in the crazy days when most of the stuff went bust but some real companies came out of it.

dinkumthinkum2• 9 years ago

Yes, it's a gambling fantasy for many. It's like looking a penny oil stocks and their volatility and imagining a path to millions; I admit, I can understand the intoxication and gold fever. For others, it is an intense or obsessive interest in the, somewhat arcane, and a little vague, "technology".

junkscience20173• 9 years ago

BTC to $100k followed a drop to $80 and a public bailout

happy trading

idibidiart2• 9 years ago

And SEC goes after shady figures, not Goldman

korbonits• 9 years ago

If Goldman is doing it... maybe I should finally buy some BitCoin...

freeflight2• 9 years ago

If Goldman is doing it publicly, then you are already too late to the party.

toomanybeersies3• 9 years ago

To be fair, people have been saying that you're too late to the bitcoin party since around 2013.

thess24• 9 years ago

I've seen a few well know prop trading firms that are trading cryptocurrencies as well (Jump, DRW, probably others) and there doesn't seem to be too much talk of that. Goldman lends credibility and pretty much everyone has heard of them, so I get this is bigger news, but to me the more interesting news is in the trading firms.

Prop trading firms have no reason not to manipulate the cryptomarkets (it seems legal) and have the capital and knowledge to do so. Or am I missing something and manipulating these markets is illegal?

zmk_• 9 years ago

It is not illegal as the market is not regulated right now. You can actually see manipulation in BTC right now.

tim3335• 9 years ago

I think it might be more accurate to say the laws are not enforced now as the markets are not regulated. That's not the same as legal. I'm not sure market manipulation / insider trading laws are that specific as to which asset you are manipulating as to make crypto ok. There's some talk now about Coinbase insiders trading ahead on bitcoin cash and some debate as to whether they could be done for that. I'd be curious how that plays out.

coldcode• 9 years ago

At the barbers today they were all talking about having bought bitcoin recently. When barbers start trading in bitcoin its probably the peak. In 1929 some people started getting out when the shoeshine boys started giving tips.

ringaroundthetx2• 9 years ago

the reason for that saying is because by the time the lowest class of service workers is buying then there is nobody else to buy from them

Stocks and commodities spread through society that way, from the most well connected VCs down to the lower class when the price rise makes them feel like they have a chance to get rich after it is shown in their nonfinancial choices of entertainment

Bitcoin hasnt gone through society in this route

Existing hedge funds, VCs, University endowments and pension funds are legally incapable of buying cryptocurrency

They are all forming new LPs with new operating agreements to do so

There is no institutional leverage or credit in the cryptocurrency ecosystem

There are no derivatives to manage risk yet

The lower class will be selling to the institutions soon

charlesdm5• 9 years ago

What is interesting here is that it almost seems to be acting like a reverse bubble.

batmenace3• 9 years ago

Most of the institutional 'slow money' like endowments and pension funds will never touch cryptocurrencies, no matter how they are structured. They can't even take positions on FIAT currencies, or even bonds below AA rating. No way are they ever touching cryptos.

awgneo• 9 years ago

I believe this article completely contradicts this belief.

oculusthrift• 9 years ago

yeah.. my barometer is when the designers at my company started talking about it...

dictum• 9 years ago

Surely designers at a tech company (I guess) are knowledgeable of macro tech trends, so they've known cryptocurrencies for a while, but weren't interested in discussing it publicly?

ybrah• 9 years ago

I told myself I would sell my crypto stack when my Mom asked me what bitcoin is.

I sold it about a week ago.

kingmanaz• 9 years ago

In times of Weimar prosperity, more people should curl up with a copy of Ben Graham's '29-crash postmortem "Intelligent Investor", IMHO. I can't help but suspect that these barbershop customers will someday regret not having simply parked half of their savings in AAA-rated government bonds, the other in consumer defensive dividend champion stocks, and rebalanced once a year. More power to them if they strike it rich, though.

monochromatic• 9 years ago

My mom mentioned that she’d heard of bitcoin yesterday. I’m pretty sure that is also a sign.

prawn3• 9 years ago

My mother raised it last night. Meanwhile, my mother-in-law has been sending me "It's time to cash out of Bitcoin" articles.

sytelus• 9 years ago

In gold rush, you want to be person providing services to people chasing gold, instead of being person chasing the gold.

ttul• 9 years ago

Today, an 80-year old client of a friend's financial services firm wrote: .

"Hi. Thank you for your excellent stewardship of my retirement savings all these years. You have helped us change a lot of things, and weather some pretty terrific storms like the Fall of 2008. I am now focused on a higher risk-reward trade off, and will be entrusting my son to invest my assets into the brave new world of crypto currencies. With thanks, please kindly close all of my accounts and begin the process of moving my funds to my son so that he can purchase Bitcoin."

I am not kidding. This, folks, is how the world ends.

user59944616• 9 years ago

Can you transfer money to your son in the US? That should be tax evasion.

Where I am from, that order would be totally illegal. ain't happening.

Simon_says2• 9 years ago

I am now focused on a higher risk-reward trade off

Yea, no kidding!

The silver lining is that at 80, he won't have to live in penury for very long.

toomanybeersies3• 9 years ago

The fact that he's gambling on bitcoin is not the only problem. As you near retirement (or in this guys case, are retired), you want to reduce your risk profile. If my life savings disappear in my young 20's, no big deal, I can rebuild them. At 80, if that money goes, it's gone for good.

I feel really sad reading this. This can only end in tears for people like this old guy, or the people buying BTC with their credit card, or the people taking out mortgages to buy crypto.

gooseus• 9 years ago

Jeez, if I were the financial adviser of someone this old and receiving this letter I would want to make sure that my client was still in his right mind and not being cleaned out by a nefarious relative or other con-person.

toomanybeersies3• 9 years ago

No man ever got rich mining gold on his own, but they certainly got rich selling blue jeans [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi_Strauss_%26_Co.#Origin_an...

passiveincomelg• 9 years ago

In http://alternativlos.org/41/ they say that GS got big on front running and how all the old tricks work on this new, unregulated market.

wslh2• 9 years ago

I am also thinking about building a cryptocurrency trading desk inside my company, any thoughts about how to recruit in this field? I am mainly finding it difficult to get the right personality traits since there are a lot of shady and non-professional people.

mulmen5• 9 years ago

I honestly can't tell if this is a serious comment.

wslh2• 9 years ago

This is a very serious comment. I am wondering how to recruit professionals to build a trading desk inside my company where we specialize in secure cryptocurrency applications and are part of some venture funds but just don't do day trading.

I am also wondering if your comment is serious of not because it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

totalZero• 9 years ago

I would reach out to two sorts of people. 1) traders who already trade other products, especially quant traders and traders of exotic derivatives. 2) young people who are part of trading clubs at high-tech universities where there are likely to be some computer scientists in the mix.

Basically, I would structure the desk such that the technologically savvy people are analysts to the risk savvy people, with some quants to assist them and conceive pricing/predictive tools.

Your average quant is likely to know a lot about the financial markets, and have the ability to learn about individual crypto coins, but also likely to be unaccustomed to discretionarily managing risk.

I don't know how you would find someone who has been successful in trading bitcoin, but that would probably have more to do with luck than skill anyway. Not to mention that a large component of successfully trading on a desk involves communication with others, and that is larger than just "was this guy able to make money by being long bitcoin in 2017."

perseusprime11• 9 years ago

The guys who run these trading desks make like $5m-$10m per year. I wonder how Goldman plans to compensate the guys running the crypto desk.

asenna2• 9 years ago

What's with all the extreme negativity with Bitcoin and its trading price on HN? I've been noticing that in all the BTC related threads recently.

Yes, this is possibly getting too large too fast. Yes there is a chance this is a bubble because the barbers and shoeshine boys are talking about it. But there is also a chance that we genuinely are at the beginning of the transition from Fiat currencies to crypto (beginning of the S-curve mass adoption). And given that we live in the digital connected age dealing with a virtual concept, it takes a lot less time for things to catch on and spread like wild fire, as opposed to other transitions in history like snail mail -> Email (which also was not that slow).

And if at all that crypto vision does come true, the value of BTC and some of these other top cryptos would be worth a _lot_ more than it is right now.

Again, this could go the other way and it could all come crashing down soon and maybe the hype dies down. But I feel a majority of the HN community is just waiting for that to happen which I did not expect.

nextstep• 9 years ago

Some of the negativity about Bitcoin in particular is around the relative lack of utility of the actual network, and how this usefulness hasn’t grown with the price. Currently, Bitcoin Core (the dominant fork still) has ridiculously large transaction fees (sometimes averaging over $20 for a given day) and transactions can take hours or days.

There’s also some contention because Bitcoin Cash (the other fork of Bitcoin) is in a lot of ways closer to the original design of Bitcoin (“peer-to-peer cash”), but is having to fight for the name “Bitcoin”.

asenna2• 9 years ago

I agree, Bitcoin being the largest has a lot of issues with governance and the community not being able to move fast on the scaling issues. I'm not too familiar with the core team's development plans but there's a lot of scaling work and research going on with Ethereum and Litecoin, etc and eventually I'm sure whatever works would flow into Bitcoin as well.

I think having the first-mover advantage and name recognition, the network effect that it has right now and the global media's attention, it looks really difficult for a smaller coin with better tech overtaking BTC anytime soon.

We've all seen technologies that are more advanced than an established player in a field but a lot of times, that does not matter. That's what I believe at least for the short to mid-term timeline.

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

There are many other cryptocurrencies. It's a well known fact that Bitcoin is probably one the worst ones at the moment. Its hopes rest on the core team's ability to provide an effective solution to the scaling problem, and so far their track record leaves much to be desired. Meanwhile there are new coins based on new protocols emerging, some showing a lot of promise.

prawn3• 9 years ago

The negativity often seems to go beyond reasonable criticism and delve into spite. As another commenter suggested, I suspect a bit of jealousy is at play and it wouldn't surprise me if a few spiteful commenters wouldn't discuss the shortcomings in a much different way if they held Bitcoin.

Obviously, there is more than enough happy-clapping on the side of speculators to balance everything out, but I do wish the conversation more often found a practical mid-ground.

solotronics• 9 years ago

for me at least it is an opportunity to keep my own wealth. If I can keep my own record of wealth why would I entrust a third party that doesn't care anything about me? Perfect example is Wells Fargo opening accounts and charging people.

jaymzcampbell• 9 years ago

Totally this. Brexit has me not trusting the government I reside under as far as I could throw it. I believe in crypto as an ideological position and hope to see it continue to grow. It might not be Bitcoin that wins in the end but decentralized, truly global, non-governmental mechanisms of money control are needed. There is far too much power in their hands as they push for "cash" to become digital (i.e. traditional bank accounts with access via debit/credit cards).

alexasmyths2• 9 years ago

"for me at least it is an opportunity to keep my own wealth. "

This is a really poor reason to use BTC.

A) BTC is supposed to be a currency - generally, a currency is not where you should be storing wealth. Currencies are not designed to be 'stores of value' - they are there to facilitate economic activity and transactions.

If you want to 'store wealth' - put it in real estate, bonds or equities. Commodities. Other currencies. A broad mix/basket of many of them.

B) There's no reason at all to think that BTC will necessarily be worth more/less than another currency. Why do you think BTC will 'always go up'? Much of the BTC hype may have already been had.

C) By simply keeping your currency in a trivial savings account, will roughly protect it from inflation.

In addition - most bank accounts are Federally insured - in case something goes wrong, you get up to $200K back etc..

D) Risk. BTC could go to zero tomorrow. Probably not - but possibly. It's extremely volatile = bad store of value.

People have this really odd view that 'currency = value' ... it's not ... currency is just a 'medium of exchange' - so you only need to hold it when you want to transact with someone else in a common/liquid way.

Over any reasonable length of time, currency is generally not a good place to hold value, and it's not designed for that.

If you have lot's of currency, trade it for something else, spread it out.

There will never, ever be a currency or any other magical currency store of value that will provide what you are kind of implying. Never. This is because the ratio of 'things people need' and the 'amount of currency they need to transact for' is constantly in flux, ergo, a 'fixed' currency constantly in flux relative to that.

spookthesunset3• 9 years ago

for me at least it is an opportunity to keep my own wealth.

As long as you don't mind the value of that wealth fluctuating by very large amounts. Today that wealth might be worth $10k, but in a month it very well could be $100...

bennytjia3• 9 years ago

Absolutely true. This is the fundamental value of bitcoin. It is a store of value. I say no to trusting 3rd party. Especially wells fargo...

notyourday11• 9 years ago

Because it is not wealth. Bitcoin is a sea shell currency. Or tulip bulb currency.

Wells Fargo clerk issue is totally separate from this.

wepple• 9 years ago

I’d hazard a guess that a lot of the fundamentals haven’t really changed in an interesting way - it’s just becoming more widespread and popular, which isn’t interesting from a tech perspective. And I don’t disagree with throwing a small amount of cold water on the hype - the number of headlines aren’t in line with the actual utility of it.

forgotpassagan4• 9 years ago

For technical reasons, Bitcoin honestly sucks. The block rate is so low that transactions cost many dollars and take hours to confirm. This is only going to continue to get worse, as it turns out that having a global ledger is actually the opposite of a decentralized system.

I can't do anything with Bitcoin that I can't do more easily with my credit card. It offers no value except a tool for rampant speculation. Block chain is junk, and while I see promise in the future I strongly believe we're in the Myspace stage. Something better will come along in a few years and blow this garbage away. Something that's actually usable as a real currency in all the ways I can use a dollar and maybe more.

pzxc• 9 years ago

The lightning network could fix everything, or fail spectacularly. I think an even bigger danger than failing spectacularly is if they take too long to roll it out. Other cryptocurrencies are already gaining some favor because of the situation BTC is in now with the high transaction fees.

It has a good chance of working, in my opinion (the lightning network), if they don't dawdle too long. But the clock is ticking.

jakupovic• 9 years ago

'I can't do anything with Bitcoin that I can't do more easily with my credit card.'

That's false as your credit card issuer controls who you can and cannot transact with. With BTC you control whom you transact with.

cik2e3• 9 years ago

Bitcoin truly does suck, for reasons mentioned and the wastefulness of PoW. However, saying that "blockchain sucks" is really short sighted and screams of ideological bias. We're not in the MySpace stage yet, but more like AOL. The internet in the early 90s sucked a whole lot too but the potential was pretty obvious, just like it is with crypto. And today there's a whole lot more to blockchain than just digital cash. That's just the most obvious and, by now, one of the least interesting applications.

Sure, all of this technology is nascent and scaling issues are yet to be solved. But it's far from useless in its current form. Not every application needs 10s of thousands of txs per second, for example ICOs. I know that this is another hot-button issue, but some of us feel strongly that people should not be protected from themselves. And that's the most important thing that blockchain offers: true freedom, and that's why it's so exciting. Especially at this junction, in the wake of the internet having been co-opted by big business and big government.

matchcohnn• 9 years ago

Because at the moment, bitcoin has no redeeming qualities.

- it is not transactional, as each trade costs $30-40. as exchanges hold the orders for weeks

- it is not rare, as there are tons of viable cryptocurrencies coming out each day

- it is not safe, as exchanges go bankrupt and shutdown.

- it is not stable, as prices fluctuate wildly each day. Downside could be 90%, upside could be 20%.

- it is not fast, as 100K+ transactions awaits

- it is not anonymous

- it is not valued correctly, as a sell order of $100M will most likely reduce the price by 50%

dang2• 9 years ago

Single-purpose accounts are not a good fit for HN and you've repeated this stuff several times already, so I've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned on HN, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll use the site as intended in the future. That means posting comments as part of thoughtful conversation about intellectually curious things. It definitely does not mean hammering an agenda.

theoh2• 9 years ago

Blockchain-based currencies are not an acceptable replacement for the existing monetary system because of the extreme brittleness of their mechanisms. You really are completely on your own when it comes to things like getting hacked, losing your wallet, etc. And we know that nobody's machine is secure against a persistent attacker.

The social mechanisms (regulatory etc.) around retail banking are a crucial safety measure for individuals in the first instance. Bitcoin discards all that. If you repair the safety net, by creating a web of trust between principals (e.g. banks), proof-of-work becomes an unnecessary nuisance.

From the recent ING paper: "The average person [...] dislike[s] having no rights, no recourse, no guarantees, no legal coverage, nothing. They just want secure, reliable and hassle-free access to their money, and if they forget their password, they want to be able to call their provider and have the password reset for them. And with reason: recent analysis suggests that up to about 20% of all Bitcoin in circulation may be lost forever, due to, for example, misdirected transactions, lost passwords and crashed hard disks. Banks are the usual providers of custodian functions preventing loss and theft."

It's possible to be anti-Bitcoin while accepting that digital money is the future.

akira2501• 9 years ago

because of the extreme brittleness of their mechanisms.

On top of all that, we're still entirely unsure how the system is going to function once all bitcoin has been mined and it becomes a pure transaction system.

prawn3• 9 years ago

Could that be solved by some sort of banking layer between such-inclined users and their holdings, without interfering with the core aims of Bitcoin? e.g., an abstraction where the next generation bank provides some extra level of security or recourse. I can't imagine that banks as they are today are brilliantly efficient.

olalonde• 9 years ago

A lot of the negativity comes from people who missed the boat, sold too early, etc. Also, people who don't understand bitcoin or confuse it with ICOs/blockchain crap. I'd say that's the bulk of it to be honest.

geetfun• 9 years ago

I agree. I "missed out" on purchasing some bitcoin assets early on. So seeing a lot of the rise right now, I don't share in the excitement as -- I would imagine -- someone who's holding a few thousand BTCs.

Having said that, I think there's a bit of (healthy) skepticism amongst those of us who hold "traditional" assets regarding BTC.

As someone who holds real estate as part of the investment portfolio, I understand and see the return from the rental properties. Stocks give me dividends. Bonds give me interest payments.

Currently, all these yields are in dollars. But would I gladly accept BTC as payment? Currently -- no. It's too volatile for it to be useful. And the entire issue of blockchain transaction backlog is worrisome.

So if a tenant comes to me and says, "I'll pay this month's rent in BTC," I'd still have to say, "No thanks. I'll take dollars please."

rifung2• 9 years ago

But there is also a chance that we genuinely are at the beginning of the transition from Fiat currencies to crypto (beginning of the S-curve mass adoption)

I can only speak for myself but I see this chance as practically being 0.

As far as I can tell the only people who would need something like Bitcoin are those who participate in illegal/immoral activity. Seeing as there is no regulation, I don't think it's far fetched to believe those who have a large amount of Bitcoin, such as hackers who were paid ransoms in it, would have motivation to try to increase the perceived value of it.

Personally I believe that people, especially those who already participate in illegal activity, trying to profit is easy for my mind to grasp and believe than for some technological revolution. I suppose the bias from my personal experiences shows as well given that I haven't met a single person who has purchased Bitcoin for its utility but many who have bought it because "it's going to go UP!!!!!!!!!".

I suppose personally I don't want to see people throw their money away, especially because in this case I believe it will benefit scammers, and that's why I have a negative attitude towards it.

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

The total market cap of all cryptocurrencies is .6 trillion USD. There's dozens of coins with teams and communities trying to make them succeed and provide value. There's a lot of work and creativity involved in providing new technological solutions to overcome the limitations of older cryptocurrencies. I think you should give the cryptoscene another chance and do some research on what's going on. Saying that all this work, money and effort is something that will only benefits scammers is a bit unfair.

jjeaff2• 9 years ago

But there is also a chance that we genuinely are at the beginning of the transition from Fiat currencies to crypto

Maybe, but the current price is no reflection of that. The current price is based on speculation, not utility. No "maybe" about it.

drcross3• 9 years ago

That's just your opinion. My opinion is that every dollar, euro and yen that stored outside the current financial system is being safely utilised in the bitcoin store of value.

pcarolan• 9 years ago

Some of us think that burning coal at 250kwh[1] per transaction isn't sustainable.

[1]https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoins-insane-...

sillysaurus32• 9 years ago

The primary concern is that if BTC wins, we will all be subservient to an algorithm which no one has any incentive to change. We'll lose all financial controls.

Worse, people with massive crypto fortunes can act as evil as they want, and society can't do anything to stop them. Right now we can take the money away from the powerful, if society collectively agrees to. That will become impossible.

If BTC had no upper limit, I would agree with you. But Satoshi capped it, and theories abound as to why. The most reasonable explanation is that he wanted to incentivize network strength: more participants, the healthier the network, and deflationary currency encourages adoption from a game theory point of view.

But think about the endgame. What do you think will happen when coins stop being minted? When there are only 400 BTC left to mine? What will happen to all those miners and the vast worldwide mining apparatus?

If Satoshi were still around, he would likely want to remove the hard cap. And then we'd be in a different situation. But he didn't, so we're not.

jstanley3• 9 years ago

Why would it make any difference if Satoshi were still around? He can't make arbitrary changes to the consensus rules any more easily than anyone else can.

And you might not be able to take money away from the powerful, but you can still throw them in prison.

Chathamization• 9 years ago

There seems to be a ton of excitement about Bitcoin now, not because of what it can do, but almost entirely because of speculation. Almost none of the general public interest in Bitcoin stems from an interest in what Bitcoin is; the vast majority of people simply see it as a get rich quick asset. And the reason why people are only interested in it for speculative reasons is because it doesn't seem to have any particular benefit for most people.

And if this is a speculative bubble the way it looks like it is, it will end like other speculative bubbles. A few people will get absurdly rich, not because they added any value to the system, but because they were able to time the market. Their money will come from the many others who will lose a lot because they tried to do the same thing but were too late.

Beyond that, there seems to be a small group of people who are interested in it because they see it as an alternative to fiat currency. But strong opposition to fiat currency seems to be one of those odd economic beliefs that some people get, similar to the people who think that our society would be great if we just got rid of money and had a barter system. Outside of fringe beliefs, fiat currency is generally seen as a useful tool.

drcross3• 9 years ago

I'm tired of this perspective. Just because you "feel" people are in bitcoin for "the wrong reason" doesn't make it bad. Similarly if people start buying electric vehicles because they are faster than gas cars it doesn't make them "worse" than people who buy them for environment change.

A lot of millenials have learned a lot about the existing financial system due to Bitcoin, even if it was initially to make a quick buck, and I suspect there's no way back to fiat for a lot of them.

alexchantavy• 9 years ago

Again, this could go the other way and it could all come crashing down soon and maybe the hype dies down.

The housing market crashed in 2008 when everyone defaulted on their loans and all the speculation on those assets went upside down. I wonder what a cryptocurrency crash would look like.

gabesullice• 9 years ago

A blip

volgo• 9 years ago

People have listed some good reasons, but no one hit the real painful and unpleasant reason:

People are negative about it because they missed the ride up. It was at $1k earlier this year when these people started dissing it and calling it a Ponzi scheme, and now it's at $15k. Those people missed out a 15x gain, something most startups they've labored their life over can't do. It's human nature to be jealous

ace_of_spades3• 9 years ago

This is what I am actually afraid of! Why would you want to become bitcoin worth even more... when its value is so unevenly distributed towards early adopters? ... when it is using as much power as a medium-sized country while only providing a few transactions per second at a price of $10+?

Before you jump on the hype train, just ask yourself if it really is a train you want to get on, consequences and all. Alas I fear lot of people are already too invested in bitcoin as to see the problems with it.

camillomiller2• 9 years ago

Whatever happens, can we fucking stop to shorten them to crypto!? Crypto does not mean cryptocurrency, for God’s sake!!!

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/12/crypto_is_bei...

occamrazor2• 9 years ago

To be fair, crypto also doesn’t mean cryptography, but in programming circles they are often used as synonyms.

Crypto just means hidden.

anonytrary2• 9 years ago

I mean this is crashing now, but at some point it will go back up. Blockchain technology will continue to make people in high places very mad. It's here to stay. Is there a lot of money in it right now for the stage it's in? Absolutely.

Blockchains are objectively a better system. If the government pulls a Napster on Bitcoin (and Blockchains), I hope they get whatever is coming to them. Napster -- it had its problems with fairness and ownership, and a reasonable case could be made as to why it hurt creative producers. But Bitcoin/Blockchains? Literally no case can be made as to why we have banks when we have Bitcoin. It helps everyone except the people in charge of the inferior systems.

For example, what happened with Slavery? There was a lot of old money in Slavery and at some point we had to be like "sorry guys, your system sucks". Of course, that ended with war. But at the end of the day, we are in a better system. I can proudly say "slavery is disgusting" without fear of being hurt by the government.

Today we live in a time of financial slavery. A time where certain people get to control our money and thus our means. When will we be able to say that "banks are disgusting"? I am waiting for that day.

noddy1• 9 years ago

haha. Excellent.

Previous crashes = bankers dunking on retail investor rubes

Coming cryptoocurrency crash = nerdboi investor rubes dunking on bankers

Buy my pretties! Buy!

idibidiart2• 9 years ago

Ok, look, it's a pyramid scheme no different than the stock market.... coke heads at Goldman love this sh_t

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

There's a cryptocurrency called RaiBlocks that is working to be the best at transfer of value. The protocol uses new cryptocurrency concepts evolved over the years and I believe it can be quite revolutionary. In my opinion, bitcoin is one of the worst cryptocurrencies at the moment, and to be honest I hope to see it die soon.

Create a wallet using this site https://raiwallet.com/, paste your address here and I'll send you some raiblocks. The transaction time is about ~5 seconds and there are no fees, so it's almost on par with a credit card, except you don't depend on a bank or a credit card company.

Also, check out this link to google trends: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=raiblocks. You'll see that the country with the most interest in raiblocks is Venezuela, which coincidentally is going through hyperinflation. Bitcoins used to be quite big there as a way of avoiding the loss in value of the national currency, but as the country became poorer and the cryptocurrency networks more congested, the fees became prohibitively expensive. Raiblocks could be a good alternative to cash, or at least help some of the most technically savvy people.

What I'm aiming at is, give the technology a chance. As the top poster says, it might be a big bubble, but it might also be a revolutionary technology (or both, just like the internet).

EDIT: Sorry folks I have to go so you'll have to wait until I check my account again. Still I'll do my best to keep sending as long as people keep asking.

iloveluce2• 9 years ago

I'll bite your bait. Just made an account, my address is xrb_3zrgt5ocbm6u5xjy8xxy8q918bi5rg7eimu5suywjmgebnwnhy4d63bwohk3

Although this site doesn't seem all that secure

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=74031BB65A3CEB5E4222...

nrhk• 9 years ago

I'll happily take you up on your offer xrb_3enb5r6u5tguje5jknzi7zepnqdqrsy7io7z7jwxbpuxjkinhwhomawmnry5

I had heard about XRB for awhile but I'm surprised I couldn't find it on any of the major exchanges.

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=D6753964A8C48FAF2A18...

Zofren• 9 years ago

I'm interested. Here's my wallet: xrb_143o34yte8m893ua91jtnt6gk4owo8wnwojjcpmq1gmsohqtt5e6ibcj8uzw

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=D6753964A8C48FAF2A18...

ryoshu2• 9 years ago

I'm game: xrb_1ci1ecu54naqwrmq8m6r3ubwg1dsteofnonaj1mom5eher9ea1y3gi9dwub3

Why is RaiBlocks superior to other cryptocurrencies?

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=D1C31634C6A017D28AFA...

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

It's barely starting, but the protocol has been in development for a couple of years and it aims at being fast (~5 second transactions), feeless, minerless and scalable. The jury is still out in terms of whether it'll actually scale or if no fatal flaws will be found later, however, as far as I'm concerned it's showing a lot of promise.

RichWalton2• 9 years ago

Interesting. I'll take you up on that offer :)

xrb_1mf1quypikgen383zos45696gatdtj8kq9d3henygnr7ncx9gqkr84rp1u5g

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=8040795FF5773219784B...

noobhacker• 9 years ago

Count me in -- thanks for the intro.

xrb_3ty7th6gpqnbi7p9169uaed7nwtdajj5ipc84x5dq9sc4top1sukqsrukxsy

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=3F308260810E4A43676E...

tylererer• 9 years ago

Interesting currency. Here's my address: xrb_3uc33yzgmaqpbf9iwquprxefuwib17eeasu4p61wkg5ot47y7r4m9jyangny

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=7E3813452EAA6A8AC2FE...

andrethegiant• 9 years ago

xrb_1ugerrdtuiufkk7an1fm9h1oim1aigy3w94miz3brqd8rbp9hoeys9n9fapi

Thanks for exposing me to this!

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=DD58FC49CB12FE0A02DD...

opnitro• 9 years ago

I'm down. This looks cool. xrb_1an7cje144pgqj8crf8fd9pk1s9jonbwt7on5qzsy1esbz3jaktpxt1owehq

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=57EE1953C44D89FAE5C1...

thomyorkie• 9 years ago

Thanks for the intro. Here is my address: xrb_34qo6c4ojif5ywoa6ymi3k3dwiukwdoutkxz4prniosbwmbgagrzjyds4c41

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=3C735C6948A74F240664...

Huhuh• 9 years ago

Let's have a look.

ac15f66716f6df73a2d2a54e207e3d64ebc30570367d39e7bf8c56e5f337aaeb

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

It seems that's an invalid address, and the protocol doesn't let you send to invalid addresses. Moreover, it should be prefixed by a xrb_.

hccjr• 9 years ago

xrb_1p85squytf87qr6pi5mjpyetrn547fmrq3d4t5u6iuxjo3odpz59f1fbr8fm

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=22643FE77E7E02BFBBBA...

nickreese• 9 years ago

Alright, I'm in. I'll take you up on it.

xrb_1z1cpzukqq5io1tdrffjkzdic1gzf5dr3bm9bur1owgerb917nhaaqobzrxn

Thanks, I'll pay it forward as well.

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=8CFDF6515E6E6A06BB11...

Thanks, no need to pay back. Enjoy!

intrustandout2• 9 years ago

howdy, please share to: xrb_1p6dx4z55y8hub3pdykxfocju113r8w4dyn877trxzm4utq6txriaecfwbs1

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=82856CE5E4F33DE74D9E...

burger_moon2• 9 years ago

Is it still not available on many exchanges? I've been looking to get into this for a bit (ok only a few days).

I made an account on that site, xrb_1h7fo6dwweg1gibqdddtgrfxfziqr6ezkzcfidnmsc6gnrbqerkynk4be63a

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=BE7E86C159BFFF0F2C66...

wakkaflokka• 9 years ago

Why not...

xrb_196w8xumh5ewazrpfrdzspjf74ba8ijsqgrf8eemau8t8tqiekn7ishzouc7

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=E45CF1263D42F99BED11...

udfalkso• 9 years ago

Ok, I'll bite too: xrb_3djcghwbxg5yj41wzoa5xr3xbf9gt4tdzarws9mtpa63ujc5wm6zrimmkuo6

Thanks!

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=821E51C77711B87B3E0F...

popcorn_pizza• 9 years ago

I'd love to try this out. Thanks in advance!

xrb_1jpkjmryebnfefkixxdo56o7n69a88kr5ye11nzpa6mb5y7wbbhnaz4md6f9

drak0n1c• 9 years ago

I hope this helps the people of Venezuela. I just made an account. Thanks! xrb_33n5h8p5adjr1u1dsf5pwqo79qcwgyc9jyduz5rkpxwk4wfrbag7ccrnpxfg

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=A5A68D3FD07F339E8378...

ithinkinstereo• 9 years ago

When you get a chance: xrb_34aqwo7ppwt33h6cqf7dpcrmbn387ddn73xrb8m5o9h3zi7k4arur4oe1dg6

Impuni• 9 years ago

xrb_1ktck1oqmwhk58yqrierg5dkchdr539jmsgmubqec74ifme637kups59br1p

Thanks!

an_account• 9 years ago

Cool idea, lets see what happens: xrb_36of6n5yjan51rzxaembfrdgqmbqwn8rg9aj5791sy8hyqp4s7y4bfrjigx7

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=224E73BADE92317867E9...

vgchh• 9 years ago

xrb_3cym7au8s5e7rj895qnme9m6f9yhn3qzdpuwyhmpap9axi5rjpww9yp4kc64

codinghabit• 9 years ago

Sure I'll give it a shot. My address is: xrb_3y1utuy93zxxmdj4inw1wbuudk7f34ty61ny8g1gwj569haicfebw84hdir5

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=0888875B38830F1FCB20...

rtpg• 9 years ago

I just read the RaiBlocks white paper and it seems really interesting!

The one thing I didn't see in the paper is how you can make sure that other users have logs of your account. Bitcoin gives transaction fees as a way to pay for your stuff to be in the data, but how would I make sure mine is tracked?

pyreton• 9 years ago

I'll bite in case it's not too late

xrb_1s5mrcxm7a9h3gduxmnfsbxjce3o7mu65owo8y59fhim9uw46gxc8kaaabug

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=98152AC85804F49430E4...

vardhanw• 9 years ago

I'll give it a try (was reading up on this on reddit): xrb_1ch1f7gc98rf6b1uekbpawfbtxdftwwhxae3hycdbgmtb9potr9x63p437ms

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=6CFAB78CCD8315390E5A...

AlexCoventry2• 9 years ago

xrb_3ac6d84z89sd7ndxaeu397tb7iyr67jg7pbhqdish3ss76ekhznd9s9x3jco

Thanks!

bennytjia3• 9 years ago

+1 will use

xrb_3ohqzxnrttgkfkehr6da91mf9ia5o8y9h4g9et5psfrmbmqo45z3enqospkk

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=FC4B9DB2B267AEADAAE1...

words0n• 9 years ago

Am I too late xrb_3p3i4rnwsnsoceu94hcicut74d8smdbznadytwsj69pmwteua3opt5b6m433

seanwilson• 9 years ago

Thanks, I'll give it a go as well if you don't mind. :) xrb_1sy8ewzsee7zxu4bz1ka7pqjt7uwdmd5ng5xu33ghzxts5fxyt3hzcgjqryu

Raiblocks could be a good alternative to cash, or at least help some of the most technically savvy people.

Do you see any downsides? The only technical one I'm seeing is that the protocol isn't battle tested (e.g. can it cope with being spammed like crazy given it has zero fees?).

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=267DC5FB1CF52F526DE1...

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

Yup, the protocol isn't battle tested. Some stress tests have been performed, but that's nothing compared to actual real-world use. As in any experimental technology there are several premises that are assumed, hopefully, with good reason, and if any of these fail it might be fatal. For raiblocks, it might be vulnerable to certain types of sophisticated attacks (check the paper for more info), and more info must be gathered. Also, the cryptocurrency isn't anonymous, packets are sent unencrypted via UDP.

bzudo• 9 years ago

I'm interested.

My wallet. xrb_1o85pzjf9nqkk76ku5qfzqkw6u6a3qt18o53ugh9dnaypotykzzqc7rcff4m

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=B12E537CD22FA10D64FD...

tinytim69• 9 years ago

Interesting premise you put out. Are you in any way affiliated with the RaiBlocks concept? Would love to talk details xrb_1wjckswsmna1aa1a9wpknezs89hjtsqspow7br6u5p3r3yo7q4xm41do89jz

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=9D679ED1277C5DD6B29E...

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

I'm not affiliated to the cryptocurrency, I hold a number of raiblocks which I bought some time ago. I really like the technology and am a cryptocurrency enthusiast, so I'm giving a little bit freely to let people see that there are interesting projects in the cryptosphere that show promise and that might be really revolutionary.

Anyway I know a thing or two about the technology, so if you have questions let me know and I'll do my best to answer or point you in the direction where I think you'll most likely find the answer :).

Clanan• 9 years ago

Beam me up xrb_11wod9ygmnqr4jw4kefp3n3rij8nm34d7cpkwr8u3dz84k7qe4cg4r8kugn1

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=19E27028B5EFC229EF34...

dghughes2• 9 years ago

Sure I'll go for it too.

xrb_1ejsq9xkn5c4ciuexdgrp8hckmyf9q7fwttergsr3hqfrfqfu6k1x6upy8gn

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=19E27028B5EFC229EF34...

cmars• 9 years ago

I've been researching altcoins, and RaiBlocks sounds interesting.

xrb_3wq3d975sq1oef7y35mzakrywke18hab85g548wkshu61pec4fxkixbwhr48

Thanks!

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=463099F0544FC3486885...

adamisom• 9 years ago

Wow dude I've been reading a lot of good things about Raiblocks lately. Thank you so much for any amount at all -

xrb_3weozurdqazioyb1m9whby73ytp3xitowaqjaya8fjkefdqj9o4ikf575u51

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=48A89FFF86154A0E4B7B...

nicklo• 9 years ago

RaiBlocks looks awesome! Just signed up: xrb_1iefziyor79n9nrqjnogwxrzgsun9swuhcqnst5qi9u1ocxxoqinfjuzzfu6

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=9BF2712DE679CCEE710B...

superk60• 9 years ago

xrb_3to7dzqhjwsuucf6drw5yokh3fbdwsq9fuq1miph78w3accnx4db9g8yt74x

thx bro

john-y• 9 years ago

Hey MadSudaca, color me interested!

xrb_1uje156yqm9tfo6nk56h778mi4ej99c39adkwz3ehoa1kpepziwus8sj3kxh

Thanks!

timq3• 9 years ago

Let's give that a try, from what I understand, coins are generated once for all in the genesis account and then need to be sent to other accounts. Hence that's why you send free coins, right?

xrb_1fu8fcm93ifjnugkkt1nckr43trq7urqt9uyu6xgsynjjfda9xbpoe4kn4t1

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=AAFDC0F404BFE33CCF81...

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

That's correct. They were generated from the genesis account and then distributed through a faucet that ran for a long time. I'm distributing because I wanted to show the top poster that there are cryptocurrencies that show a lot of promise in addressing the problems s/he mentioned. Also, I'm sending very small amounts of money ($USD 5 * 0.001), so it has no impact to me financially, my time is more valuable. However, I really like the technology and would like to see it progress (I'm a cryptocurrency enthusiast).

cadlin• 9 years ago

xrb_1w943ro18z4ipj4sqxqn7yzgpjcotsy1yoz3sjx1571zuxwf5y15w6fj9cfc

knlam• 9 years ago

How can I mine RaiBlocks? or can you give me more info about RaiBlocks (ie how it really different from Bitcoin). I interested in learning more. Also, here is my wallet xrb_1m7gibpefd8gkr18xdc4sxwebo68owt6qesncuxa68hachez8cu3fq7jhb3x

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=806B96AD9057EC3A7525...

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

Raiblocks is a minerless currency. All coins that exist and will ever exist were created in what is called the "genesis account". These were later freely given via faucet for a period of time until the supply was exhausted. If you'd like to learn more I recommend going to the website: https://raiblocks.net/ and reading the whitepaper. Also checking out the founder's recent AMA at the subreddit could also provide a lot of valuable info!

toastpancake• 9 years ago

xrb_1g9wwy6g39ae7hd7e4rr88pb48mkuhnf94bzzys1zq5tdi9ktm5ak7xo5wf5

wpaladin• 9 years ago

Why not indeed!

xrb_31nc5rs8bfon399zfpzp9iar8wimfr7kp8i8dsm7b56ke7ogz6ghsmpgnjkk

Thanks!

kellycor• 9 years ago

Count me in. Thanks xrb_3nhyjenm9hktcg9t5p8bwer8jmr5gy7gftg1ad6deh4tp9t8pj6mfp9zj1qa

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=C94280C7D294BE48B41A...

gatmne• 9 years ago

Could you give a short summary on how it works and how it avoids the pitfalls of bitcoin? I searched around in that link but couldn't find a paper describing the currency.

Lon7• 9 years ago

Added to my list of crypto projects that look interesting.

xrb_15d4d4o8x3euiko14o6h1netwk3boio3fju1u6xhe93o5ipjhqy63shcxutm

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=54B9B7AF1311CD9BDB17...

enixlz• 9 years ago

Requesting some Rai !!

xrb_3ty8ni6tmh8be7yhupzzfswc18zjbk3di9wtqwaifb3rkeim4nyka1a3jwef

neka• 9 years ago

I'm in - xrb_1cktr4zk6d3wq3yjgaa9nex8px7zun5p7hrw35fngdanzjybdddcqsfi7wx4

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=F54F1BB26D751441695B...

drewmate• 9 years ago

Hey there. If you're still sending: xrb_1cgeqbusf6n7i9iji6objzrenqcstxjc1c9fke1w61tegih5ch9rr7giemdd

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=98D8A6A0E5119E7A140B...

riku_iki• 9 years ago

xrb_3f8r4oqkpxx9yjnzdub3oqiihjqdyix5gk6yeb1hgt7yrur5mysuhxeqgsns

Redoubts• 9 years ago

xrb_3q61w9dohm6ok15mo1ua84qk6xqm535kzfkbsx66ggcruee73khprbt4iykw

Sure, why not.

rrf• 9 years ago

xrb_1rmjmow56xhnsk5yojpjafqty7kpzbxx7sct4wsue65ckqmq997c5dse6oup

Thanks.

adjkant• 9 years ago

a6a4e48fc29111570ec4d673056bb770fe7597587c9c2b53a35cc2a6cfb10698

I'll give it a go. Thanks!

ctchocula• 9 years ago

xrb_17tmz88fphyfup3y3q47e5mzw5xwbu6tad5cmo9gpqh8sxhrs11oe539pi1q

I'll test it out. Thank you!

eitland2• 9 years ago

OK, I'm trying

xrb_1rkecomb7s3c8kkg8dir9frrpxxpazm3j531jcbh7zpqoe9umdbzoi

Thanks!

Edit: tried to figure this out. There is no mining but there is something POW that it wants me to opt in to use my browser for.

Where can I read more about this (except for the source code).

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

The address you sent me is invalid, are you sure you copied it correctly?

You can read more about the coin at this website: https://raiblocks.net/, or on its subreddit. There is some "PoW" involved but it's used to deter spammers, and it's not a key component of the protocol. Since there are no fees, there's no tangible economic disincentive to deter someone from spamming the network. Thus, before sending a transaction you have to solve a small problem that takes a couple of seconds in commodity hardware.

at7302• 9 years ago

xrb_35xpzipnesnc78ocsu5hqokmjkp3rpg8zgdixd6qk1uh7jm5f7ue8mmxwskw Just signed up. Thank you for sending.

jah6q• 9 years ago

xrb_1hq9cpcxci18bd5pe1hgo4f3xh19uqr1jxp36q68uk1km33mfur3esumir5x

mosaiclifestyle• 9 years ago

Interested in this, gonna take a deeper look

Address: xrb_3e54ix1ehqzwgufh5daspyk7fcyui1izsbdnxqqsxw5nefjc6p1yzt1m641d

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=DC5DAFDDDF7F27992FCD...

proxyswapi• 9 years ago

Will try:

xrb_3ni3ow69ecnrcbk7szto98apz3pure5tkxhye1unh4f1n3n74rsgqxdnsik8

Thanks

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=3F1DCFF58B2E02F555CD...

fungizid• 9 years ago

Sounds interesting, I will take you up on the offer!

xrb_3zyti1miuafctsfgxm85o7fbwd4e4kxejpto67xsct1k3pf86fo53ihewpfz

mustardio• 9 years ago

Worth a try, thanks xrb_17o897ct54mc5yh7kxxx8gutpr3zujxpca18hqd3bn8xhhbezjczx1s6kpj6

shoq• 9 years ago

Thank you very much :)

xrb_1upurqq5tadxnh6rwhwg3uws13595nw9d7s19ajagw6qdk371aowxnqpdy8r

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=DB13B9D6BE67B6753C9B...

alxndresp• 9 years ago

Sounds interesting. xrb_3nqis7c7zs3nof5a75s35f5cskz3bposro69e6wfb9ikwimyycwo6m1xngar

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=61BBA2A59538F4C05C39...

remo7• 9 years ago

yes, I'd like to experiment with RaiBlocks, my address is: xrb_1ibiha9ogxdp51een3c1mk3ay5wdbpxggrjiidg6pnr3rdx5tz9jakzn7xat

Thanks!

realitygrill• 9 years ago

I'll try as well: xrb_3m5191zhmgmw4ztk9an6ygyhiyyphz9fiw43wpu96xcbkfz7pzao1h7z74us

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=8348F83B34BA91CDE23C...

freshfey• 9 years ago

xrb_3oh697xc8px933ea1u4qinhhi4rj7xrpdp99jkr661p5ijsjjg4gfubeiwmk

Thanks!

kkmnt• 9 years ago

I'm in - xrb_3pza9dd1b4wgenof1qotgt81mpisu5cim3yu4nntsnnu5or761cqpkfhzjdr

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=F19E66CE2EC090923F26...

mquis• 9 years ago

I'll try it aswell! xrb_35hf1mc6bifsuhr6zwj66t3tge64hjoy63oi8qz77f8sscf8oy9msu41ebj4

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=7C76610AC8A381103C55...

adnanc• 9 years ago

Much appreciated

xrb_13pxmxsq96nftprj58km73fikos78z41i7xk7xqhsfnf6prssai5icb11j8t

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=3C9BBE9655759513C7FE...

dang2• 9 years ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15984519 and marked it off-topic.

jamiegreen• 9 years ago

Looks pretty cool. Definitely want to read more. Cheers for sharing the Christmas spirit :) Here's my wallet: xrb_17t3ac567frak49tkfrk5jynegm3bhk3gc8xhokxjbgqx46tppgt5zzce1qq

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=4F72435F9D0A73F99514...

hrzn2• 9 years ago

I'll give it a try as well :) xrb_1pjzyhtcjwg5u3ot88dfa53bu6tf31syixpz78t9mq9bcfmjo81j7sjysox1

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=5025D11BB7D6211F76E4...

eagleal• 9 years ago

Thanks, I'll give it a go as well if you don't mind. :)

xrb_1mrb18cstrjrectodi6qjnm3jnjq79tbtuzhcbxix4oait6ity4gzxdhy9s8

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=6985848B28045BC0023F...

option_greek2• 9 years ago

xrb_183a7z5ohpfi7ixk5r4ayac4ms33xggkm69ihggbiin8tiq5zcp7w8a56r78

How do I mine some ?

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=C7A26750D35EFC52950C...

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

There is no mining. The currency is minerless and feeless. There's a limited supply of coins that exists already, and there won't be any more.

joe_packer2• 9 years ago

Thank you! I will try it. xrb_3utzqqgmn5ejq8kb9t3wcqg3xfs6spt5pfibugjb6jyfn5x4eamj71gprx4i

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=C671D085FDF299502003...

athal124• 9 years ago

Well count me in, sounds like an interesting tech xrb_3eyzz89jpcoeogypxwyeyfzn37y1zosf841g745wone8h8cxh8e8uard8kg4

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=8253E6A7F99547BA613C...

pashsoft• 9 years ago

Thanks in advance, xrb_3pbqi6c4bxxs8a1fkztdsotcygikchs9jdugzsh4rf81ou6n3snxbsknkwww

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=F0A2834800F14CB5D5BA...

decafbutter2• 9 years ago

Will try it out as well. Thanks in advance!

xrb_3ouz8ygb6mem18s5iq4b3qbum4qznnuhujj9zqbyntcxted5ah7xej45eerx

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=4413562F715E67B5E971...

ehzi• 9 years ago

give technology a chance!

xrb_36646a7ro49tudwd1conkm8e8ykbbp1kemn8moisy6ye54i9hk8u699eypxt

smallnamespace• 9 years ago

Would love to give this a try. Thank you!

xrb_3yrjpgt7f3au9x8b4xws4mih7yti9oytdj5xd3ybdjpyunt674x3y3hwdhh5

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=BA61798E783D31499B05...

beedn• 9 years ago

Would love to try, thank you! xrb_334xs6ckza9fg9pnygk519g3uyxqcurza1dfcgi5ny1odukffi1z898fuu9p

MadSudaca66• 9 years ago

sent :)

https://raiblocks.net/block/index.php?h=C4B6E2A14A576D17DD00...

Zuvannn2• 9 years ago

Would love to try this! xrb_3tbyqsweoq4zjgkboy4fy4f744iskp8ijniixtgt6hjoannj9r3o4r3x5ann

Thank you so much. :)

Zuvannn2• 9 years ago

I would love to try this out! xrb_3tbyqsweoq4zjgkboy4fy4f744iskp8ijniixtgt6hjoannj9r3o4r3x5ann

Thank you! :)

ajejebrazov• 9 years ago

Want to try this: xrb_1ssewaepxj6mj7koohndp3hrn4tjrdu1dtzyda15r6mbbo84anxxg1sexa9e

Thanks!

s3nnyy• 9 years ago

Let's try that: xrb_16dargbx91g4bs43w1jofe8jp6tj5uanqkc9yqq4r3rtmpuxefax4ty7xudf

knieveltech• 9 years ago

Of course they are, and why wouldn't they be? Goldman's entire business model is based on raking dumb investment strategies.

elephant_burger• 9 years ago

It's interesting that nobody was screaming bubble and denigrating the price of gold after it kept rising after the GFC. https://goldprice.org/gold-price-chart.html

zenlikethat• 9 years ago

Gold 2008 - 2017: ~100% increase

Gold 2016 - 2017: almost no change

BTC 2010 - 2017: ~22499899% increase

BTC 2016 - 2017: ~1700% increase

One seems a bit more bubbly than the other don't you think?

mccoyspace• 9 years ago

When it comes to Bitcoin, I think of Linux as an analogy. When it first emerged, many people questioned it's basic premise: "why is there a new operating system? Everyone uses Windows, or Mac". People didn't know or understand the idea of open source: "Doesn't that just mean people will find bugs and ways to hack it?" "Without a company behind it, how do I know I can trust it in the long term?" At first it's usability sucked. It took forever to get it up and running. It was confusing and hard to learn. It had a small, rabid fan base who kept obsessing about desktop adoption rates and wondering when it would take over. That is all kind of the same vibe as Bitcoin. But just as Linux showed, you don't need a monolithic, centralized entity to back it, it can start slowly and improve over time. "linux on the desktop" basically failed (cue all the linux desktop heads on HH....!) but it completely took over the whole back end of the Internet. Every server runs it. And it then morphed and took over almost all mobile/tablet/smartTV/etc/etc devices. I think something similar could easily happen with Bitcoin. It has securely held Billions of USD equivalents in value for years. The software continues to evolve. Its core technology has morphed into many other formats. And like Linux on the Desktop, maybe the early idea of digital cash will change into another idea, like a settlement layer. who knows? But I remain pretty optimistic about it.

eitland2• 9 years ago

That's one of the more convincing arguments I've seen.

I still hold though that Bitcoin was an early prototype and its value will sooner or later approach zero.

I do however think that blockchains and cryptocurrencies are a good idea and here to stay.

To build on your example:

Linux is here to stay but a number of the old companies, distros and packages are either gone or on life support and newer companies, distros and packages are making our wishes reality.

anonytrary2• 9 years ago

I can't help but agree with this. People can only mine so many coins. Users will prefer blockchains which have lower fees and transaction times, so miners will give priority to those coins. At some point the selling point of Bitcoin will become less and less true. I have rewatched several promotional videos for Bitcoin pre-2015, and most of their claims are false as of late 2017.

profalseidol• 9 years ago

Analogy is good. It does not however tell us that it will be the case, especially if you look at the development community around Bitcoin. While Ethereum, serious innovative stuff is happening but is not being aggresively marketed for good reasons.

VMG• 9 years ago

Ethereum has been hyping proof-of-stake since version one and delivers Cryptokittens instead.

golergka• 9 years ago

Survivor bias. It is also true about many, many things that turned out to be flops in the end.

Ologn• 9 years ago

When it first emerged, many people questioned it's (sic) basic premise

As they did Charles Ponzi's international reply coupons.

That is all kind of the same vibe as Bitcoin

You mean the creator(s) who went to great lengths to hide their identities (that's reassuring), or do you mean the various ripoff artists, fraudsters, imprisoned scammers etc.?

It has securely held Billions of USD equivalents in value for years.

So did tech stocks in 1999...so did subprime mortgages in 2007...

LV-426• 9 years ago

When it comes to Bitcoin, I think of Linux as an analogy.

I've read Bitcoin is like email, Bitcoin is like TCP/IP, Bitcoin is like the entire Internet. Now I've read Bitcoin is like Linux.

At one time few people had heard of (random thing from thin air) New Kids On The Block.

Some didn't understand the new fangled (boy band) concept, some thought existing bands/music were good enough, some thought they'll take over the world, and some just thought they could get rich off it all before it collapsed.

Bitcoin is something that happened to catch on (entirely, by design, due to profit motive), which is why it's superficially similar to other things that happened to catch on. (Even things that catch on because they're actually useful, and not just a potential route to get rich quick without any effort.)

Once upon a time Denmark, like Bitcoin, didn't exist.

Danes (like Bitcoiners) were a strange bunch, famed and feared for their involvement in crime to make money. Slowly their influence started to spread, however, despite - but in some ways because of - their criminal behaviour.

Many legends were created... Ragnar Lothbrok, Ivar the Boneless, Magical Tux and Free Ross.

Then along came Christianity[1] (Coinbase/Winklevii) which provided more legitimacy with other, less beardy, groups. The true believers didn't like this, of course, but most people recognised the social and economic benefits of selling out everything they were supposedly all about.

The similarities end there, sadly, because today Bitcoin consumes even more power than Denmark. A fact which is completely batshit insane, but since Bitcoin hype and hysteria is even more insane, and increasing with every $1000 price pump, nobody cares.

Serious question (which will go largely unanswered in favour of turning this text white) for people who seriously think Bitcoin ranks in importance/significance with email/Internet/Linux/Denmark:

Now in its tenth year[2], what has Bitcoin actually achieved, other than a sickening energy waste and crazy price fluctuations and speculation?

[1] Which is also Bitcoin: https://twitter.com/larslfe/status/909192006362005506

[2] See creation dates for bitcoin.com/net/org.

halamadrid• 9 years ago

1. Goldman Sachs going to open trading desk 2. CBOE launches futures 3. CME launches futures 4. Fed sells seized crypto coins from silk road 5. ...

The list of things that makes this as genuine as it can be goes on and on.

It's a repeat of the 2008-09 crash from subprime loans. Everyone knew what was happening. But they just wanted to make as much money from the situation before getting out. Of course Lehman Brothers didn't get out in time.

Goldman Sachs Is Setting Up a Cryptocurrency Trading Desk

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