Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

http://www.alternet.org/why-i-will-never-ever-go-back-united-states?paging=off

by jaimebuelta • 13 years ago

400 359 13 years ago

alternet.org

yashodhan2• 13 years ago

This is sad. Perhaps maybe fly in next time?

rheide• 13 years ago

Maybe fix your country next time?

techsupporter3• 13 years ago

I honestly don't see what is broken here. No one has the unquestioned right to enter any country except one where they hold citizenship. This post documents one person who was turned away for what he felt was an unreasonable position but that's still up to the United States to decide. It may shock people on Hacker News to learn this, but many other countries turn people away for "frivolous" reasons or no reason at all. For instance, Canada:

http://www.metalinsider.net/touring/warbeast-denied-entry-to...

http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Local/2013-06-21/article-328...

http://news-briefs.ew.com/2013/11/16/russell-brand-south-afr...

(well, almost) http://correresmidestino.com/almost-denied-entry-to-canada/

yashodhan2• 13 years ago

It's not my country, you assumptive douche. The author was rejected from entering the USA on arguably questionable, but still legal terms.

Based on his account, I'm forced to believe he acted appropriately, and therefore I feel bad for him, but he doesn't have a given right to enter a foreign country.

My advice remains. Custom officials in airports are much better equipped to handle foreigners. So, to hedge your safest bets for next time you go to the US, make the airport your first port of entry.

aneeskA• 13 years ago

It is in US that you will realize your name is your biggest enemy.

thaumasiotes5• 13 years ago

Under US law, any person may change their name to anything at any time for any reason. So if your name is really your biggest enemy, the fix is not so hard.

borplk• 13 years ago

The fix is somewhere else.

dannnnnnny• 13 years ago

"If you don't like us mistreating you then change your name". Good point.

bloodorange• 13 years ago

Good choice. I hope enough people take their money elsewhere and eventually some good might come out of it.

lingoberry4• 13 years ago

Something similar happened to me recently. I voluntarily left my job at a US employer, planning to move back home (to Sweden). But first I wanted to spend some time preparing for the move and waiting for my wife to wrap things up. The rules say you have to leave the country the last day of work, so I left for Canada to stay with a friend, and planned to come back on the visa waiver program. I consulted with the company's immigration lawyers and they said this shouldn't be a problem. The US border agents thought differently. After being held and interrogated for 4 hours like a criminal, they concluded that I was lying and they thought I would try to illegally immigrate to the US, because I didn't have enough financial ties to my home country. I had a green card on the way when I quit my job so why wouldn't I just stay if I wanted to immigrate so badly? They didn't care about that or anything else I said. I was sent back into Canada with most of my belongings still being in the US. "Entering the US is a privilege, not a right" I was told. Once you get denied entry it is very difficult to get in again, and you need a visa etc. I decided it was just easier to fly home at that point.

I realize now that I was naive, and many of you would probably say it was my own fault. I thought that if I did something that is not against the rules, things would be fine. Afterwards I found out though that entry into the US is completely the discretion of the border guards. Even if you are legally following the rules, they can deny you on a whim. In this case, I believe they thought I was taking advantage by just leaving the US for a few days and coming back. Which is a valid concern I guess, but if that's so, why wouldn't they put a time limit on how long you have to be away? I think part of my naivety comes from my trusting upbringing in a rural part of a small country.

Either way, it was not the best end to my 5 years in the US, and I doubt I'll be going back anytime soon. This experience just cemented once more that the US is not a country I wish to live in permanently, and have my kids grow up in.

nabla9• 13 years ago

Kafkaesque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafkaesque#Legacy

vasilipupkin5• 13 years ago

So the logic goes something like this: something bad happened to me once in country X. Therefore, I will not go back to country X. So, if something bad happens to you in Sweden, say a policeman is rude to you, or something like that, will you leave Sweden because of it ?

markild2• 13 years ago

Having a policeman being rude to you is not even in the same order of magnitude as being denied entry to a country.

lingoberry4• 13 years ago

Where did I say this is the only reason? I had a great time in the US, and there are plenty of great things about it, but I've had enough bad experiences with various parts of society and government that the upsides of living in the US as opposed to my country is nil. Since I have no family in the US, the decision to move back, while not easy, was the right thing to do.

Edit: as for not returning to visit, I'm not exactly looking forward to being interrogated every time I try to enter, and possibly denied entry again, which I have read in many places will likely happen.

fsniper5• 13 years ago

That is a bad logic. Being deported from entering a country because you have been visited any place arounf the world is not getting mobbed by a rude officer. It is mobning at the behest of the whole US citizens.

jballanc2• 13 years ago

What makes you think these are isolated experiences? Yes, the article and the parent comment each highlight a specific case, but as someone who's had to re-enter the US multiple times in the past 2 years I can vouch that these are not isolated incidences.

dferlemann• 13 years ago

This is not a logical issue. It's an emotional one. So, it depends on the person. Wouldn't you held anything against a country if that's country's border control detained you, denied the services you paid for, denied the properties you have in the country, treated you like a sub-human? Would you try to enter that country again? Try, just try to be empathetic...

pizza234• 13 years ago

No, the logic goes like this: in "country X", this type of arrogant behavior is supported by the political background, while in "Sweden", there's no polical support for policeman rudeness. This is therefore a perfectly valid reason not to visit "country X".

DanBC5• 13 years ago

So, if something bad happens to you in Sweden, say a policeman is rude to you, or something like that, will you leave Sweden because of it ?

No. But if police officers are routinely rude to me, and if I see many reports of officers killing people and beating people - even people who pose no risk to those officers - then I might start thinking about where I live.

girvo9• 13 years ago

You've obviously never had a run in with Customs, have you? Some countries are far worse than others; those that are, aren't worth going back to, IMO.

netcan• 13 years ago

There are all sorts of things about immigration laws & policies that violate our sense of correctness or justice. All sorts of basic principles don't apply.

There is no strict rule of law. The border guards' discretionary (arbitrary) power is an example of that. That applies on several levels. Policies & laws are not governed by higher laws/constitutions so the laws & policies themselves are discretionary & arbitrary. Basic principles like habeas corpus (right to be judged by a judge) and presumption of innocence don't apply. This is why 'privilege, not a right' is the approach.

I think most of the rest is what we get when the basics aren't there. Equality before the law doesn't really apply when there is no rule of law so blatant discrimination is the norm with policies for different nationalities & cultural/ethnic/racial groups. Freedoms are profoundly violated by visa restrictions everywhere, almost by definition. If your visa is tied to your job or your profession, you are a lot less free. That kind of limit on freedom would be considered draconian if applied in other cases.

When a country restricts immigrants' permission to work in certain professions or live in certain areas, we don't think twice about it. Up until the modern era Jews in Europe were restricted in such a way. Those were controversially oppressive laws even in the context of 17th center Czarist Russia/Eastern Europe.

Anyway, to make lemonade from these experiences I think this should remind us how important basic principles of justice are. We need to protect them and make sure they don't lose ground. It's a horrible, naked feeling when you realize that they don't apply and the guy in the stupid hat has arbitrary power over you.

userulluipeste7• 13 years ago

"There is no strict rule of law."

That says it all. And also that, is the main factor for corruption (anytime anywhere).

tostitos1979• 13 years ago

Eep! I might be in a similar situation shortly. A couple of quick questions, if you don't mind?

1) Did you abandon your green card app?

2) How did you move your stuff out if you couldn't get back into the US again? Were the Canadians mean to you or were they understanding?

3) If you don't mind giving some info, I'm curious what motivated your family to leave?

For us, the big reasons are we want to be close to family. Neither of us (myself or my wife) have found a job in our home country yet (have good jobs in the US) .. and I'm not doing any trips back to do job hunting because I fear I will get into the same situation as you :( So we are planning to go back home without jobs and live off of savings for the next few months. Tough beans but minimizes the chances of immigration screw ups.

Best of luck!!

lingoberry4• 13 years ago

Sure, no problem 1) Yes, I was on track for a green card within a year or two, but when I resigned I it was abandoned 2) I had some very nice friends who brought me some bags before I left Canada 3) The Canadian side of the border was immensely nicer. They tried to give advice, and let me back in after I explained what happened. The biggest difference is their demeanor. While the US people were extremely hostile from the start, the Canadian counterparts were nice and courteous. Talking to US officials was like being in a real interrogation, after this I'm much more sympathetic and get very uncomfortable watching people get interrogated on TV cop dramas etc... 3) Many reasons. Let me just also mention that we don't have children yet. Firstly, we felt our life would be better in Sweden in terms of work-life balance and family life. Especially having a family is much easier with longer vacations, maternity/paternity leave, heavily subsidized child care, socialized healthcare and a general safety net if anything goes wrong. Secondly, we're both immigrants, her being Chinese, so immigration would keep being a problem for many years, more so for her I think. Third, just like you, I have family and friends back home, which also adds a safety net, and of course I've missed them a great deal. Fourth, we're looking forward to doing traveling in Europe, there's just more to see in a smaller area, but that's not a major reason :).

All that said, we both had great jobs, earning probably 50% more than for the same job back home, while cost of living is lower in the US, and we don't have jobs lined up. The US is just great for having a career, and there are more numerous and interesting jobs in our fields, so it's not easy leaving that behind.

otoburb• 13 years ago

>I had a green card on the way when I quit my job so why wouldn't I just stay if I wanted to immigrate so badly?

This phrase caught my eye. Based on this, you probably thought that you could leave and enter the US at will. Ironically, during this phase of the green card process (i.e. right after the I-485 is filed and awaiting final processing for denial or a GC in the mail), my understanding is that you'll have more difficulty entering and leaving the country without special dispensation (called Advance Parole).

Assuming that your company lawyers handled your green card application, I'm surprised they didn't apply for Advance Parole for you at the same time as filing the I-485. That would have saved you a bunch of hassle, regardless of whether you quit the company or not.

IANAL and all that, but I think this explains why they were so hostile. You didn't follow their strict procedures for these types of things. Of course, they're not going to tell you this during an interrogation, but this may have helped.

lingoberry4• 13 years ago

I hadn't considered that possibility. I gave over a month notice before I left to my company as well as the immigration lawyers, but it's possible that my application was still in the system somehow.

grecy4• 13 years ago

so I left for Canada to stay with a friend, and planned to come back on the visa waiver program.

I've tried to do this many, many times, and the rules specifically say you can't just cross a land border to Canada (or Mexico), then come back again.

If you could, everyone would get their 90 day visa waiver, and just hop the border for a few hours then come back and get 90 days fresh.

Last time, I flew to the Bahamas for a week, then came back, no problem.

alkonaut• 13 years ago

What is immigration control doing these days when very few people actually get stamps in passports? And if I have stamps from Somalia and Libya in my passport, why would I go to the US wihtout first getting a new blank passport? Are stamps in passport really that useful?

markild2• 13 years ago

That's my problem with these kinds of scenarios. An honest person with a truthful passport will be punished, while someone with a blank passport might not be looked at twice.

adrianb• 13 years ago

Actually I traveled to Japan with a blank passport and was selected for additional checks. Nothing aggressive or in any way impolite, but I would guess a blank passport would be regarded suspicious in many instances.

mcv4• 13 years ago

If people start doing that, they'll probably start rejecting people with passports less than half a year old.

EliRivers• 13 years ago

I keep two passports; one gets stamps from interesting countries, and the other one is used for going to places where being well-travelled is considered suspicious (such as, it seems, the U.S.).

Edit: To expand, in the UK it used to be as easy as writing a letter explaining why you needed a second (maybe it still is; haven't tried for a while). I've also got a third passport, from a different country, but so far not needed it.

girvo9• 13 years ago

I have two passports, two different countries (being a dual citizen has it's uses). Countries that I want to visit that other countries dont go in one of them, everything else in the other. Makes life easier in general if you travel a lot.

userulluipeste7• 13 years ago

You may afford to get a new passport first, but the author said that he was traveling continuously and just wanted a last segment before reaching his home. There was therefore no preparation in advance that could include getting a new passport, and also there were no bad expectations.

w_t_payne3• 13 years ago

Beautiful country. Wonderful, creative, friendly people. Horrible, over-complex, hostile bureaucracy.

I am pretty sure I'm not going back, either.

alan_cx2• 13 years ago

Problem there is that the US loudly and fundamentally claims to be a democracy. If we are to accept that, then we have to accept that the government embodies the will of its people. Or, seriously consider that the US is genuinely no longer a real democracy.

It is a real shame, as you imply. American people have done incredible things which contribute to the world in general in a positive way, and the country its self is undoubtedly spectacular and beautiful. But the political atmosphere, the general fear, and the resulting attitudes are a total bar to me. These days I even worry about using US internet services since merely doing so can put me in the sights of US authorities and their insane legal system and laws. Worse still, my own government literally bend over for the US government.

In short, a great people are strangling them selves.

crusso7• 13 years ago

the government embodies the will of its people

Like most people who vote have any understanding of what the government does or much less what the consequences of those actions are.

Voting choices in the US are much like religion choices and football team choices -- nonsensical tribalism at its finest.

Nrsolis10• 13 years ago

I don't think it's fair to paint all of this as somehow originating with the US. This country doesn't exist in a vacuum and it is shaped by the political and economic forces that surround it. I think people forget that this nation is constantly under some form of "attack" by groups (nation-state and otherwise) who hope to destabilize it or mitigate the power it can wield.

I'm an American and I'm fiercely proud of this country. We screw up all the time, but we've been able to manage a peaceful transition of power and somehow manage to find our way in a difficult and challenging world.

I think it's lost on MANY people who are not citizens or residents that the USA is HUGE, politically diverse, and nearly as varied in customs, socioeconomics, and population as Europe. You can even stretch that to language in some parts of the USA. Try and get around South Miami without at least a smattering of Spanish language ability.

Our legal system has it's flaws. You can definitely find examples of miscarriages of justice without too much trouble. Our bureaucracy is sometimes incomprehensible. Our tax systems are strange and often counterproductive.

What is often missing is that all of these things are the result of a vigorous political experiment in self-government. Below the federal government, there are a whole slew of state, regional, city, town, village, and county governments that have wide latitude to set their own laws and practices. In certain counties in the USA, it's still illegal to buy alcohol. In other counties, you can buy alcohol at a DRIVE THRU.

All of these variations are a result of people determining for themselves which laws they'll live under. It's closer to say that the USA is filled with many many cooperating democracies.

Just remember that in this country, you can still go from dirt-floor poor (not an exaggeration) to billionaire in the span of a single lifetime.

We're far from perfect, but it's the recognition that we're trying to perfect this country that makes us unique and special.

neonhomer• 13 years ago

"Problem there is that the US loudly and fundamentally claims to be a democracy."

That is part of the overall problem currently in the US. It is not a democracy; it is a constitutional republic. The representatives are elected democratically, but the whole point of the constitution is to limit to the powers of the government. It seems that 99% of the government has neglected or forgotten that, and sadly most of the general population has as well.

cLeEOGPw• 13 years ago

Problem there is that the US loudly and fundamentally claims to be a democracy. If we are to accept that, then we have to accept that the government embodies the will of its people. Or, seriously consider that the US is genuinely no longer a real democracy.

North Korea also claims to be a democratic. Self entitlement is meaningless.

DennisP• 13 years ago

After getting deeply involved in politics for about five years, I'll pick "no longer a real democracy," at least at the federal level, and my state's pretty shaky. Local's still good.

aet5• 13 years ago

If you travel to Yemen or the surrounding area you will get the 9th degree. See http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_6046.html

blaco2• 13 years ago

I wonder what other countries have this "non-friendly countries" policy, it could be good to know.

nraynaud• 13 years ago

Israel is the first that comes to mind.

walshemj• 13 years ago

Isreal / Arab country's and Cyprus are some that come to mind in the middle east you just get a second passport if you need to go to both

bsdetector2• 13 years ago

When I'm supposed to watch my words, I tend to say the wrong ones.

No kidding. Volunteering that he was in Al Qaeda territory... to take pictures of plants. Saying he's a nihilist. Suggesting that the levees in New Orleans might break again while he's visiting. Having Jewish ancestry, but denying being Jewish because not religious.

Also appears he was also traveling alone to many of these places, without any business reason. Entering the US through Canada without having business in Canada sounds like somebody trying to come in a back door, and being nervous to boot.

Even from this one side of the story I'd say the border patrol did their job just fine. I wouldn't have let him into the country in that story.

NateDad• 13 years ago

I think you're wrong, and I'm sorry that people like you are the ones working on the border. He was obviously travelling all around the world sight-seeing. He had tons of proof of that. The border patrol were paranoid and idiotic. Keeping random people out who "seem" like they might be dangerous is not going to prevent any problems. It's just going to make the rest of the world hate us more.

raverbashing6• 13 years ago

"He was obviously travelling all around the world sight-seeing"

This is not so obvious. This is one of the possible points of view, of course.

"He had tons of proof of that"

For example? I'm not sure other countries stamp a reason for entry like the US, it's usually an entry stamp for anything and that's it.

I'm also sympathetic to the author, but he was extremely naive. The border control doesn't want to hear about nice food or nice wildlife or other blah blah blah. Direct and cooled down answers will do. "On Vacation" is fine.

It's clear his answers (and passport stamps) rang a ton of bells.

Spooky233• 13 years ago

The Border agents are paid to be paranoid.

You don't talk to police like you talk to a friend -- you keep the scope of the conversation limited to the question asked. You don't introduce the topic of Al-Qaeda. You don't go into political/religous discussions. Once you do that, you're putting the border agent/cop in a position where he needs to apply subjective judgement. You avoid that by not inserting unrelated noise into the conversation.

This isn't a US issue -- it's a clueless person issue.

surge2• 13 years ago

So his crack about levees didn't in anyway color or piss off the border patrol? I mean when I'm entering a country, I too like to crack wise about their recent national tragedies to get into the border officer's good graces. He should have followed that up by saying he was taking the train because he heard planes tend to fly into buildings here.

Sorry, but it sounds like this guy is a bit of an idiot who didn't help his case, even if the border patrol was overly critical. Trust me, I'm no fan of the TSA or their "SPOT" nonsense, but if I said the things he said, I would expect to get denied just out of spite.

nevinera• 13 years ago

I can't tell if you're joking or not?

userulluipeste7• 13 years ago

Regardless, if you'd asked him to send the suspect to Guantanamo Bay he would probably agree (and thank you as he should have thought about that first).

blaco2• 13 years ago

I dont get the Jewish part, would it make a difference if he claims that he's jewish ?

bsdetector2• 13 years ago

The border patrol knew he was part Jewish, and that being the case, asked him why he went to country that was hostile to Jews, and he denied being Jewish. It's not about ethnicity, it's about telling the agents something they know is not accurate.

This part, like the whole story, was a miscommunication. A better answer would be something like "Well I only have Jewish ancestry from one grandparent so I didn't think that would be a problem".

arethuza• 13 years ago

Can I invoke Poe's Law here - I have no idea whether your are being serious or not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

fsniper5• 13 years ago

Really? A satire or what? If it is not a satire then I believe people are afraid of their shadows over there in the US. Terrorism is winning a landslide. Hey guys please, don't br islamaphobic. Nobody is trying to bomb inside out US or Israel. People have their own problems and concerns over the world and most of the time it is not orbiting you.

ssiddharth• 13 years ago

So he should have manufactured a story instead of just telling the truth? What?

cstross2• 13 years ago

Interestingly, in the developed world it seems to be the Anglophone countries that have the shittiest attitude towards border control these days. The US is notoriously user-hostile at the borders. The UK is doing its best to catch up in a Mini-Me way with the USA's Dr Evil, and is actually on course to become even more hostile than the USA -- the only mitigating factor is that the third degree is reserved for non-citizens, so far. Australia under Tony Abbot runs concentration camps for victims of famine, civil war on Nauru:

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/07/25/manu-j25.html

And denying asylum to Hazara victims of taliban terrorism:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/22/asylum-australi...

And in the UK, Home Secretary Theresa May considers immigration control to be more important than the lives of mentally ill people who have been tortured by Boko Haram:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/16/end-of-life-p...

tphan• 13 years ago

Your Australia-related articles were posted in July. Tony Abbott didn't become Prime Minister until September.

girvo9• 13 years ago

Yep.

Although, if you're an Australian like I am, you must know that this is all going to get worse.

I'm sick of our Government (no matter who seems to be in power at the time) taking every single page out of the American playbook. I like our country, why do we have to try and be them? :(

raverbashing6• 13 years ago

Not necessarily, even though I concur that the UK border may be more "picky" than the US border

But for example, there used to be some contention with Brazilians entering Europe through Spain (Madrid specifically)

And there have been cases of Americans being denied entry in Europe even in friendly countries like Ireland

wisty2• 13 years ago

Australia under Tony Abbot runs concentration camps for victims of famine, civil war on Nauru

They are called "refugee camps". And Australia has a reasonably high refugee intake. Unlike most countries, though, Australia resettles most of their refugees, so they aren't classified as "refugees" anymore. It's a pain finding the numbers, since everyone wants to talk about "refugees per head of population". There's hundreds of thousands of former refugees with PR or citizenship who aren't counting in Australia's "refugee population", because they've actually been resettled.

Though you'd be perfectly justified in pointing out that Abbott cut the refugee intake, quite dramatically. Or that beating up on "boat people" was just making them a scapegoat, trying to placate the wider concern about overpopulation and immigration in general (which politicians won't touch, because the Treasury Intergenerational Report says Australia needs lots of young immigrants to keep the economy going as the baby boomers start going gaga).

jacalata2• 13 years ago

That doesn't make any sense. Refugee applications/admittals are normally counted per year. A refugee who was awarded citizenship/residency would be counted in that year. But there are very few of them (certainly not hundreds of thousands) since Howard introduced the TPV in '99, and anyway who cares? Do you also need to know how many Australians are descended from 1 pound Poms to see how many refugees we should allow in this year? Does the refugee policy in the '80s being reasonable somehow excuse how awful it is today?

You should know that 'resettlement' actually means 'sending to a third country', and yes we do resettle more refugees than anyone but the USA and Canada. That doesn't get counted in our refugee population because we sent them to another country.

thomasz2• 13 years ago

I would appreciate if you wouldn't cite the 'world socialist website - Published by the International Committee of the Fourth International' as a reputable source. Some of their articles are surprisingly good, but it's still the publication of an obscure trotzkyist sect.

cstross2• 13 years ago

What's your problem with Trotskyite news sources?

I assume most folks here are smart enough to evaluate any given news site on the basis of its accuracy and to differentiate between editorial bias and factual incorrectness.

If you really can't bear to see news and opinions from sources you personally disagree with, how are you ever going to test your opinions?

bausson2• 13 years ago

Maybe publications with enough funding are not 'strict' either.

They are some always interest at play. Well funded publications are either government-backed (in some communist/socialist countries), which might mean unfair treatment of some news, or corporation (or corporation-backed), which means a stance on some subjects (let's say:liberalism) that isn't exactly fair either.

The best (or, some might say, only) way to get news is to get it from different sources, which preferably does not share the same point of view.

enraged_camel• 13 years ago

In light of an article about prejudice, did you mean this comment to be ironic, or...?

crusso7• 13 years ago

Anglophone countries that have the shittiest attitude towards border control these days

Meh, any Western hand-wringing about the evils of Anglophones has to be counter-balanced with the fact that net migration to those "evil" countries continues at a brisk pace, often illegally.

metaphorm• 13 years ago

large difference between the immigration process, which usually begins months ahead of time in the foreign country first, and border security for a visitor.

the U.S. has more open immigration policy than many other countries but it also has a really shitty and thuggish border security policy that is a direct consequence of the ongoing security theatre that we play at because of terrorism.

asimeqi2• 13 years ago

You most probably hold a British passport which is a very valuable document. Let me tell you as a holder of a not as valuable passport, who needed a visa to get anywhere, how I have seen the world.

I now live in the US. Before coming to US I visited many European countries. At the border of all those European countries I was treated as a criminal. I waited very long hours while people in front of me holding same kind of passports as me and then myself were interrogated like in a police interrogation. I missed connections because of those interrogations. In one case when I did make the connection, I heard the pilot of the plane speaking to passengers about how the delay was caused because of waiting for people of my nationality. Even people associated with people of my nationality were considered suspicious. A friend of mine was married to a Canadian man who had the same name as a famous American actor. When they tried to go together to one European country, that man was also interrogated for 2 hours by the border police because they thought his passport was fake. I was once traveling via train from European country A to European country B. I happened to be in a cabin with a man from country B. The border police of country B (this was before Schengen) took him outside the train and interrogated him for 30 minutes because they thought his passport was fake. He had a pocketful of documents, bank cards, credit cards, phone numbers of his family members etc. and the border police still were suspicious. I was so used to the long lines and humiliation that I thought they were normal for any border crossing.

Then I traveled to US. Imagine my surprise when I got off the plane, walked a long corridor, passed by a drug detection dog, got into a huge room with many passport control booths, in 5 minutes found myself in one of them, the immigration officer asked me where I was going and what was the goal of my trip then stamped my passport and I-94 and I was done. Even if I didn't go anywhere from there, the trip was already a success. It made me feel like a human. In the time since then I have seen the checks in many European countries improve and in the meantime US has added the annoying process of fingerprinting, but in my view US border control still offers better human experience compared to European countries. I was once crossing the border from Canada to US and there was this old woman trying to get into US with an expired (like 30 years old) British passport. The border agents still found a way to let her in. Since Schengen she probably would be let into other European countries but I am sure before Schengen she wouldn't be able to go anywhere.

I know that there are people who have negative experiences while trying to get into US as there are negative experiences for people trying to go anywhere, but I think most of the noise associated with them is unjustified and if US border control need improvements other countries need them even more.

drunkpotato• 13 years ago

Thank you for sharing your story. It's easy to find negative stories of crossing the US border; it's generally easier to find negative stories about anything. Positive stories like yours can help give perspective that can otherwise be lacking.

macfly• 13 years ago

Hey,

Belgian here, I've registered just to reply to your comment.

Let me tell you as a holder of a not as valuable passport [...]
Even people associated with people of my nationality [...]

What's so secret about your nationality ?

Your comment doesn't make any sens, you're are comparing a pre-Schengen era (which means prior 1985 - more than 25 years ago!) to a post-9/11 era.

As a Belgian, I've been traveling for 20 years around many countries in Europe and North Africa without ever being bothered by the customs.

On the other hand, while - as a kid - visiting the USA was a dream, it is now something that wouldn't even come to my mind when I see how much freedom and privacy (more broadly human rights) you've got to give up to come to the USA (the situation being even worst for foreigners [non-American]).

moocowduckquack5• 13 years ago

I'm from the UK and personally I think we are the last people who should be winging about immigration, given how much of the map we painted red.

shirro• 13 years ago

I admit I don't like Abbott but using terms like concentration camps isn't fair to Australia. We have a very multicultural country with large migrant intake and we take in a reasonable number of asylum seekers.

We are a very desirable destination because of our standard of living and political and economic freedom. We can't just open our doors or we would be flooded and we barely have enough water for our current population in many of our southern cities.

Australian's as a whole do not want to reward people smugglers or see kids drowning when their parents try and queue jump their way into the country on overcrowded leaky boats. Detention centres aren't a very humane way to deal with the problem and criticism is warranted but perhaps we should direct a bit more attention to the countries these people are escaping and the countries they transit.

vixen992• 13 years ago

As someone said, 'bin Laden has won'.

jballanc2• 13 years ago

I don't think it's ever been easy to get into the US. A tour through Ellis Island will tell you as much. The difference is that, in the past, the US needed its immigrants. They built its cities and its railroads and much of the US's early industry. Later the US's immigrants were its main source of scientific advancements...but the US's relationship with its immigrants has, I think, always been strained.

The difference is that, today, there seems to have been a shift in attitude. The US no longer thinks that it needs its immigrants. On top of that, the world is a different place today. No longer is "the American dream" unique to America. I know many people who've started businesses and found great success elsewhere in the world.

It may be cliche to say, but only time will tell if the US's new attitude toward immigrants is justified or will prove its undoing. In the mean time, the world is a great big place with many wonderful things to see and people to meet. I don't think you'll miss much if you never go back...

mcv4• 13 years ago

The country is made almost entirely out of immigrants. It's bizarre that they're so closed off and scared of immigrants; they themselves are the children of immigrants.

twoodfin4• 13 years ago

The US has a higher per capita net migration rate than every major European country other than Italy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migrat...

More than three times that of France, for example.

sp332• 13 years ago

Yeah and look what happened last time a wave of immigrants showed up. No wonder we're scared!

thaumasiotes5• 13 years ago

In this sense, every country in the world is made entirely (not "almost entirely") from immigrants. Plenty of American families have been there as long as anyone alive can remember; the fact that the history beyond living memory is shorter than usual isn't particularly relevant.

diydsp• 13 years ago

It's bizarre if expecting the Golden Rule to be followed...

It appears to be a system made to disadvantage newcomers. This is visible in the Baby Boomer's treatment of the younger class, immigration and in frat houses.

"You ask me to enter, but then you make me crawl." -Bono Vox

crusso7• 13 years ago

US immigration is broken on so many levels. A lot of our immigration problems stem from a political desire to increase voter rolls for one particular party.

The Democrat party benefits greatly from illegal immigration from Mexico, so they refuse to do anything whatsoever to control that flow. That's great for Democrats to win elections and all, but it creates a backlash against immigration in general. Ironically, the most controllable area of immigration, that of those actually following the visa process suffer the most from that backlash.

CaptainZapp• 13 years ago

  The Democrat party benefits greatly from illegal immigration from Mexico

Could you back up that assertion with proof, or at least with some sound reasoning.

While I can accept that Latinos tend to vote democrat illegal immigrants can't vote to begin with. So it certainly doesn't follow that "The Democrat party benefits greatly from illegal immigration from Mexico"

To me that sounds a bit like partisan mud slinging, I'm sorry to say.

mncolinlee• 13 years ago

This is pure groupthink with no evidence. The facts are quite the opposite.

The administration of Barack Obama has locked up and deported more undocumented immigrants than any President in American history. [1]

Now, I would agree that "the Democrat party" would benefit more if they did the opposite, but our President has not chosen that path. Militarization of the border is at an all-time high because of ignorant blather like the parent post that only harms our country and its workforce.

[1] http://www.nationaljournal.com/next-america/actually-obama-h...

driverdan• 13 years ago

Except Democrats would benefit much more from relaxing immigration restrictions and allowing illegals to become legal. Then they could vote.

moocowduckquack5• 13 years ago

US's relationship with its immigrants has, I think, always been strained.

I think the Navaho and others have been somewhat annoyed by all the pesky foreigners with their exotic christian outlook.

V-2• 13 years ago

Were they "the US"? ;)

wildwood• 13 years ago

There's really nothing new about hostility to immigrants in the United States. The last generation's wave of newcomers is the next generation's "old guard", saying that the new wave is "lazy", "unskilled", and a leech on society. What's going on today seems like a fairly straightforward continuation of how we've always been.

There've always been lots of people who would say that the next wave of immigrants is unneeded, and unwanted. No matter how successful they turned out to be.

rwhitman• 13 years ago

I think its possible the immigration quotas are skewed by how many people are in the country that didn't come through the system today. Prior to the current wave of southern border immigration, almost everyone had to go through the system via a port of entry and they could keep the quotas in check. My family all came via boat, plane etc at a time when the immigration office probably wasn't accounting for undocumented entries.

So whats happened is that immigration now has to account for higher numbers they can't control. The people who actually come through the system are at a disadvantage because their numbers can actually be regulated whereas undocumented migrants can't.

davegardner• 13 years ago

Back in the late 90's the US was fairly high on my list of travel destinations. At the time I didn't have the finances to visit.

Because of stories like this, it's slipping so low on my list that I'll likely never get there.

girvo9• 13 years ago

I've been, twice. I'm not going back either :(

fenesiistvan• 13 years ago

Coming from Romania, I also had to face some extra control in US airports + we also need visa which is given also after an interview. Romania is a country with zero terrorism.

I only wish US people to be treated in EU the same way they treat EU people in US.

alexeisadeski37• 13 years ago

Two wrongs make a right.

thaumasiotes5• 13 years ago

There are plenty of reciprocal visa policies; I understand that China charges US visitors a fee equal to the fee the US charges Chinese, and Brazil's horrific bureaucracy is also just trying to match what they feel Brazilians have to go through if they want to enter the US.

The concept sort of makes sense; I can envision a situation where tourists are appalled by visa procedures (especially if they're going to Brazil) and pressure their politicians to lighten up. The major flaw there is that most americans will never want a visa anyway, so it ends up being a largely invisible protest on the part of the other countries.

GFischer• 13 years ago

I used to think that way, but now I don't. Brazil implemented a retaliation policy, where U.S. citizens are treated much like Brazilians are in the U.S.

Several nice people from the U.S. have had a bad time as a result, and it made me reconsider - I don't think "an eye for an eye" is such a great thing.

If only we could only treat people with power to change things that way :) - but someone traveling is already not a standard U.S. citizen and probably more open by default.

unlimit• 13 years ago

I don't think people from third world will think the same way. Even with all the issues United States is still a very coveted country to immigrate to from say India.

lylejohnson• 13 years ago

When I clicked through the link to this article, a window popped up asking me to sign a petition to reinstate Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House. Given her recent vote in favor of the Patriot Act, that was an interesting warm-up act for the main article.

sigzero• 13 years ago

Pelosi is insane.

coldcode• 13 years ago

Generally insanity seems a requirement for anyone to be in Congress.

a3n3• 13 years ago

But it's OK if a Democrat does it.

blisterpeanuts5• 13 years ago

U.S. Immigration agents are trained to look for certain traits in visitors: nervousness, unusual or inconsistent answers to questions, history of visiting certain countries. Any of these characteristics trigger an automatic escalation in the interrogation process. This individual, albeit sounding perfectly innocent, unfortunately triggered several hot buttons and the hapless agents were too unimaginative, uninformed, and inflexible to give him benefit of the doubt and let him pass.

99.9% of visitors do pass, because they are consistent with certain profiles--business visitor, tourist visitor, never-been-anywhere-bad visitor. Even for them, it's a rather unpleasant and rude experience that leaves a bad taste.

There's no question that our border control and immigration system needs an overhaul. The stupidity and counter productivity of the agents who scrutinize every incoming person (except for a few thousand Mexicans every day, but that's another topic :) inspires little confidence that they would actually recognize a terrorist, who would undoubtedly be carrying a false or sanitized passport to avoid just such questions.

I'm sorry that happened to the submitter, and I hope he'll give us another try some day. If his story gets out to the right person or persons, it might even make a difference. I'm not convinced that Border control people will ever hear about it if posted here, but he can contact them directly: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/175/~/complaint...

By the way, this kind of profiling or over-profiling is not confined to U.S. Border Control agents. I have seen identical behavior by Canadian agents, too. All I had to do was mention I was going to take a class, and the guy made us go into an interrogation room where he asked repeated, annoying questions to try to entrap me into admitting I was in Canada to work or some such thing. I was born in Canada as it clearly states on my US passport, and he asked me where I was born, then looked at my companion with a sneer on his face as though to show his disbelief. It was entirely unpleasant, but in the end we passed. I learned not to say I was there to take a class. Just visiting. Hope to spend lots of money. Ok, have a nice day!

DanBC5• 13 years ago

I learned not to say I was there to take a class. Just visiting. Hope to spend lots of money. Ok, have a nice day!

Isn't lying to those people a really bad idea?

blisterpeanuts5• 13 years ago

Lying by omission.

moocowduckquack5• 13 years ago

No, they can't spot lies, they can only spot things they are not expecting. Tell them a short boring story if the truth is unusual.

barrkel• 13 years ago

The less information you give to these people, the less reason they have to stop you. So don't volunteer info.

He didn't say he was lying. He said he learned not to say something.

misterjangles4• 13 years ago

The border patrol could care less whether you are a broke student or a rich tourist. They are not interested in how much you plan to spend.

So in that regard I would think you might as well tell them the truth simply because if you get caught in a lie then you would cause grief for yourself of no good reason. But if you are an excellent liar, then go for what're you want!

Basically the border patrol are looking for three things: terrorist, drugs and people who are coming to work illegally.

malka• 13 years ago

It is not lying. It is simplifying the story so that their narrow mind can understand it.

berntb4• 13 years ago

Thanks for the overview, but...

I am a hard line atheist anti-idealist that don't make that much difference between islamists, socialists and astrology readers. Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions -- or they are just propagandists (since they know they are correct, the target is "winning" as in convincing, not learning.)

Politically, I think the US left is as crazy as the US Fox right.

The point is, there are subjects where I'm less of a laid back "live and let live"-guy -- but it is hard to be more unlikely as a dangerous criminal or terrorist than me. Still, I would be nervous entering the US borders by now.

From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. It is hard to scale their solutions to US?

Edit: ma2rten, I answered that first half to swombat 40+ minutes before you wrote. See "There is a serious position to have"

swombat• 13 years ago

I am a hard line atheist [...]. Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions -- or they are just propagandists (since they know they are correct, the target is "winning", not learning.)

Right. No contradiction there.

eshvk3• 13 years ago

From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. It is hard to scale their solutions to US?

The Israelis are clear that what they do is racial profiling. Kind of hard to pay lip service to equality and all that bull shit and still just harass only brown people, isn't it?

chimeracoder• 13 years ago

From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic.

It's not surprising that, from what you've read, this system looks good on paper. But then again, so does stop-and-frisk in New York City, if you're white and live in the West Village or Upper East Side[0].

Israeli screening is good if you're a white, non-Arab person. Not always so great otherwise: http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/arabs-say-they-endure-d... . (This is in the case of airport security, but the same principle applies for border checks)

Unlike the US, Israel openly profiles based on race. Aside from the fact that this is illegal in the US[0], this has a serious practical problem: confirmation bias.

Because only a subset of people feel the cost of the profiling, the rest remain blissfully unaware of the problem. From their perspective, the system works fine - "I never have any trouble going through security!".

As for 'scaling' this, keep in mind that LAX alone services more than three times the number of passengers as Ben Gurion in Tel Aviv does.

[0] http://www.nyclu.org/stopandfrisk .

[1] though that doesn't prevent it from being practiced in effect! http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/11/15/aclu-calls-fo...

ma2rten4• 13 years ago

Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions

Yes, they do. And so does everyone else.

From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic.

Or any country in world for that matter.

thaumasiotes5• 13 years ago

I've done a fair amount of back-and-forth between the US and China. On my most recent entry (to the US), the phase 1 guy flagged me to have my carryon manually inspected because I took the trouble to answer his questions honestly (bizarrely, the search did not involve a search of my person, or my checked luggage, so I can't imagine what it was supposed to accomplish). That forced my mother to wait an extra hour to pick me up, so roughly midnight instead of 11:00. Lesson learned, I guess. Never be honest with customs.

For reference - white US-born citizen (well, from a california perspective); never been in trouble.

girvo9• 13 years ago

I've been to over 40 countries so far in my life. Be "honest", with Customs: tell them what they want to hear. Being logical, assuming they understand travel at all, is a recipe for disaster. I learnt that the hard way coming in to Heathrow!

bobdvb2• 13 years ago

I read that as "to have my canyon manually inspected", which would have been a very different experience.

ma2rten4• 13 years ago

To me as an European it already crazy enough, that the US even interviews it's own citizens. In the EU if you are an EU citizen you just get waived though at immigration. (At might still get checked later at customs but that is a 1 in 100 chance).

fn• 13 years ago

I was born in Canada as it clearly states on my US passport

Just wondering why you didn't enter Canada with your Canadian passport then?

blisterpeanuts5• 13 years ago

I moved to the States when I was 5 and I'm a naturalized U.S. citizen. I have no Canadian passport.

leoedin3• 13 years ago

A Canadian passport (until very recently) lasts 5 years and costs $120. (a 10 year one is available for $160). Getting a Canadian passport outside of Canada is a nightmare (unless you happen to have a Canadian embassy nearby) and costs even more - $260 for a 10 year passport. Unless you really need 2 passports, there's not much reason to get one.

steven2012• 13 years ago

He could also use his birth certificate as well.

a3n3• 13 years ago

I'm sorry that happened to the submitter, and I hope he'll give us another try some day.

I hope he doesn't. People need to stop coming here, stop doing business here, otherwise there will be no perceived need to change. The Constitution and just plain decency have not proven enough to stop this shit.

Treat us like the backwater shithole that we, by our actions, are aspiring to be. Then maybe we'll change. Otherwise you may as well welcome your new overlords.

aeturnum• 13 years ago

Countries that are cut off from the world (even with onerous trade sanctions) do not have a good record of changing their ways. Stories like this push for reform - which is both how we got our awful border controls and how we'll get rid of them.

If nothing else it means that people self-select out of a system that doesn't work for them, meaning the system will never work for them. Not a good way to run things.

tootie• 13 years ago

Consider the incentives. What's the penalty for stamping the passport of a would-be terrorist? Fired, shamed, guilty conscience for life. What's the penalty for deporting a fun-loving Canadian? Angry blog post. Easy call for them.

shittyanalogy• 13 years ago

You said "identical behavior by Canadian agents" and then you said they let you pass. That is obviously not identical and is in fact contrary to a major point of OP's story.

Just asking you to consider your adjectives more thoroughly before writing them.

goatforce53• 13 years ago

All I had to do was mention I was going to take a class, and the guy made us go into an interrogation room where he asked repeated, annoying questions

When I got my Canadian work visa the one point that the immigration agent specifically highlighted on the visa paperwork was that I wasn't permitted to attend university while I was here.

Damn foreigners coming here to get subsidized education? Not sure why it was such a big deal for them.

declan• 13 years ago

I think this is right. There's a (let's say) 0.01% chance of false positives and being detained and hassled by FedGov border cops, and this guy was in that category.

It's not just American border cops. Like the parent poster, I had bad experience entering Canada. I truthfully told the border agents I was a journalist arriving to speak at an Internet law conference at the University of Ottawa's law school, but I didn't ask the conference organizers for a written invitation and therefore couldn't produce one.

The Canadian border guards took me to a side room and interrogated me what seemed like an hour. It was an unpleasant experience, especially given the uncertainty about whether I'd return home or be able to enter the country or be banned from entry for a period of time. My now-spouse was living in Canada at the time, so the last option would be the worst. They did make a pretense of looking on the school's web site for the conference, but (from what I could glimpse) were looking at the French version, not the English version where the conference was actually listed. Or maybe they found it and were intentionally playing dumb.

Eventually I was admitted. Ironically, the conference was sponsored by the Canadian government!

Nelson69• 13 years ago

Was he rejected because of nervousness (his claim or maybe suggested by his article) or was he rejected for making some smart ass answers to their questions?

So when they reject him, there is really only a couple of acceptable explanations that they can give, regardless of the truth, they aren't going to say "we just don't like your attitude" they're going to say "it looks like you run with some countries that we don't like." Maybe I've been re-educated or programmed by Our System, but I simply cannot fathom uttering 'al qaeda' at a border crossing just like 99+% of us wouldn't consider talking about 'bombs' or 'explosives' while in the TSA lines at the airport. Think of it as a pass/fail IQ test and from the sound of it, he failed. Probably doesn't make nearly as interesting an article to read though.

jotm3• 13 years ago

Well, most people would be nervous and give inconsistent answers under pressure, EXCEPT trained spies and high ranking terrorists, so yeah, that's stupid as duck.

sleepyhead• 13 years ago

Had a similar problem when flying into NYC. With an Iranian visa stamp in my passport. "Why would anyone go to Iran???" the lady at the border control said. Then she wrote CTR on my immigration form (my imagination believes it means 'Check for Terrorist Record'). Then she showed it to a guy with a machine gun and he replied "Is he a fugitive or something?". Had to wait in a room to talk with some guy. I showed him my passport which has a lot of stamps. "Oh so you were backpacking?". Yup. "Ok you go can".

alexeisadeski37• 13 years ago

"Ok you go can"

Yoda is always the coolest security guard!

girvo9• 13 years ago

I think he'd be certainly More effective than the idiots running the show now.

joshuaheard3• 13 years ago

Sounds like the U.S. doesn't want him back.

I've traveled to over 30 countries and the U.S. does not have a monopoly on rude bureaucratic custom officials.

My worst story is probably in Germany where the border officer would not let me take the used car I had purchased in Germany across the border because the chain of title in my registration was out of order. He ended up calling all the previous owners in the title to determine the proper chain of title before he would let me leave the country with it.

JoeAltmaier3• 13 years ago

Sounds like an actual financial issue - not to you, but perhaps to one of the previous owners who was cheated. Turns out not to be the case; the fact that a German checked a paperwork detail is not at all surprising to me.

ronaldx2• 13 years ago

Is that your worst story? I read it like this:

Border officer didn't want you to take a car with a wrong/likely-illegal registration across the border - instead took some time and effort to clarify the details and then allowed you to continue.

In my mind that officer was doing their job well, and acted rather generously in your favour.

joshuaheard3• 13 years ago

The registration and title were in my name because title had cleared the German DMV. He basically didn't believe his own DMV and started calling previous owners in the middle of the night.

ankushnarula• 13 years ago

This is disgusting. But then the more I think about I wonder if I was a CBP officer how would I behave if I didn't want to be the officer who allowed a terrorist into the US who manages to succeed with some plot. Far fetched perhaps, but I think that mentality has created a culture in CBP.

With that said, I think there's a larger culture of militant xenophobia running rampant in federal, state, and local policing. It's very unnerving - but I guess that's the whole point right? Keep everyone unnerved and therefore divided and under control. On one side you have the people who are afraid of those who are doing the policing and on the other side you have the people afraid of foreigners (or people who "look" like foreigners).

busterarm2• 13 years ago

Some of the people who join CBP tend to be a bit xenophobic to begin with.

One of the most bigoted people I've ever met got a job with the CBP after a very brief and unsuccessful stint in the Army where he'd publicly announced to everyone that he was going to Afghanistan to 'kill towelheads'.

userulluipeste7• 13 years ago

"I wonder if I was a CBP officer how would I behave if I didn't want to be the officer who allowed a terrorist into the US who manages to succeed with some plot."

Well, how about having solid reasons for detaining someone, something better than "Who takes a coat to the U.S. in the summer?" And speaking about attitude, be polite at least until you have enough incriminating evidence! Just to offer an example from the article itself - shouting at the drug-smuggler was OK in my book, whereas "what the hell were you doing in Yemen" was not.

neeravkumar• 13 years ago

I went for a interview with Facebook recently from India and had a really different experience. The CBP guy was really gentle and just reminded me to not work for Facebook in my days there and that's it, I was in USA. I just had a small carry bag and no luggage so another one of them asked me why I have no luggage and I told them that I am only there for 3 days. I agree US can be a bit paranoid of these things but compared to people trying to enter USA I think very few face the kind of hostility the author faced.

JoeAltmaier3• 13 years ago

Agents use their read on a person to determine entry/denial. The OP mentioned all the things he was asked and how he answered. He didn't/couldn't explain his attitude, eye contact, how quickly he answered the questions, facial expressions.

You've met people you took an instant dislike to - maybe its their hyper-vigilant appearanch; maybe they involuntarily smile at everything you say making you think they know something you don't know. Things like that can get you turned away at the border.

tnuc• 13 years ago

He tried to enter on the US Visa Waiver program. If the guard doesn't like you then you don't get in.

Getting a visa in advance does make the guard do more paperwork if they refuse entry.

From some US gov website; --- To use the program, visitors must waive all rights of review or appeal of decisions made by an immigration officer and all rights to contest action in deportation except for asylum.

andor• 13 years ago

That is the normal way for many Europeans to visit the US, and pretty much every other country that's friendly to tourists. You just appear at their border and get a tourist visa.

dnautics2• 13 years ago

moreover, he considers it a system with graft to be preferable to what he endured in the US, which basically is an attitude of massive entitlement. While I personally believe a person should generally have the right to unconditionally enter any country, this guy doesn't (as evidenced by his excitement and apparent delight at passing through border controls). So, what, is 'getting the green light' some sort of personal validation? And getting rejected such a huge personal affront that he will never go back to the US because he knew he couldn't bribe one of the officers?

dublinclontarf• 13 years ago

It is a very unpleasant experience being refused entry to a country, which has considerable lost costs as a result. I had much a similar experience as OP and can only agree.

davidcollantes• 13 years ago

Do, really, immigration officers ask "What the hell where you doing X?" "Aren't those countries Islamic?" There are parts on this writing that are hard to believe, like they were written to sound like a novel, but I have never been on a situation like the one described, not even close.

CalRobert2• 13 years ago

You clearly haven't met the more intellectually challenged of my countrymen (that's most of them, for the record)

girvo9• 13 years ago

I've had UK and Australian Customs officers be similarly incredulous over places I've visited. Honestly, those jobs don't seem to attract the "best and brightest". Nor attract those who even have a passing familiarity with geopolitics and geography. Sigh

mcv4• 13 years ago

Why would any border guard be incredulous over anyone visiting far away places? You'd expect border guards to be used to meeting foreigners. And there's lots of foreign parts in the world.

Why would anyone visit X? Because it's there. Because people live there. Because there are things to see. What other reason do you need?

wrongc0ntinent• 13 years ago

Some of their questions are there to gauge your response, not get information, but I still have a hard time believing they would call him "a Jew" instead of a version of "Jewish".

leoedin3• 13 years ago

Remember that the guy working the border post for the train from Montreal to New York is fairly unlikely to be particularly well traveled, and I'd imagine the vast majority of people they meet fit into a very small category of tourists and Canadians. A border officer working in LAX will have seen far more international travelers. Suspicion of Singapore and Malaysia as a whole doesn't really hold up when you get 500 people a day arriving from there.

jtheory• 13 years ago

I'm afraid so. While I still lived in the US (I'm American), my Malaysian wife lost her green card. As a result, she just had a stamp in her passport (this was the temporary green card) for ages, and each time we flew into NYC we were sent to the "back room" for further questioning.

The agents in front were often somewhat rude; in the back there was a sort of waiting room (with often 20 or so people in chairs) and a front desk where the agents would literary SHOUT at the people called up in front of them. It was not a private interview room (though presumably those were available as well). We were silently horrified during the 10 minutes or so they were shouting and badgering a cringing 60 year old Greek (I think?) man with poor English who apparently had something related to child support out of order in his documents.

There's something very hard to shake about the feeling you get when you are obliged to act polite & unconcerned to petty officials like these when you are inwardly seething with rage.

We left the US in 2006, and still go back on occasion (parents, friends, etc. are still there!), though the last time was now a few years ago. We still dread the immigration experience, though; it's likely to be fine (we don't make stupid mistakes about what we say, and we fake friendliness well), but it always feels like somehow, something will go wrong.

We've were once detained for 45 minutes or so at the English border as well, driving up from France -- we made the mistake of entering while pregnant without being prepared for their suspicion (NHS leeches!) -- but while it was frustrating to be stopped & questioned, they were impeccably polite and kind to us (though they did put a warning in my wife's passport without a word to us... we didn't notice until the next trip through the UK, when we were questioned about that).

moondowner• 13 years ago

This pretty much sums it up:

"We are under the impression you have more ties with more countries we are not on friendly terms with than your own. We decided to bring you back to the Canadian border."

Jean-Philipe• 13 years ago

I've submitted this over a month ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6553418

Dylan168072• 13 years ago

Yes, you did.

But nobody saw it because it was killed.

Next time figure out why, maybe banned domain, and work around it or accept that the story will be lost.

CalRobert2• 13 years ago

I don't want to go back, and I'm from there.

5 years to go for citizenship...

hartator• 13 years ago

5 years to go for citizenship to which country?

Do you mind on telling us why (the upsides, the downsides...)? Thank you! :)

Fuxy• 13 years ago

Apparently traveling in a lot of countries is grounds for suspicion in the US.

Well if you have multiple citizenship you can always just choose which passport you're going to use so how useful is that really?

Jacqued2• 13 years ago

I know I do, but that's not a solution for everyone.

Even if you don't have multiple citizenship, it should probably be standard practice to get a fresh, stamp-less passport if you're planning on travelling to the US or any such hostile country.

bobdvb2• 13 years ago

I am due for a new passport soon, which is a shame because I will loose a few interesting stamps. But it is probably a good thing as my travel seems to be gravitating towards the US soon. I have avoided the US for >10 years now, but work might bring me there again for some visits next year.

misterjangles4• 13 years ago

If you've been traveling to Yemen and Somolia and all over the Middle East to places that do not have good relations with the US - then it wouldn't be a terrible idea to "lose" your passport and get a replacement without all the stamps before entering the US.

These stories get everybody riled up but in reality are a tiny fraction of people who enter. I have a story too - when I was visiting Amsterdam I had the most rough body search I have experienced when traveling. Maybe I should never visit there again to see all if the rich culture and friendly people? That'll show 'em! My wife was called into the back room on our way to Aspen because her bag triggered some false alarm. Cross that place off my list, I'm never going skiing there again!

taoufix• 13 years ago

There should be an app for this: Is is OK to have a [Country X] stamp on my passport when going to [Country Y]?

monksy• 13 years ago

Is this a repost? I could have sworn I've seen this before. I'm not sure if it was on HN or r/truereddit.

surge2• 13 years ago

It was on truereddit on the guys blog: http://dasmag.nl/why-i-will-never-return-to-the-usa/

His crack about a major tragedy (levees breaking) probably is what did him in.

toolslive• 13 years ago

My boss (he's European) has 2 passports: one to visit the Arab world, Russia, ... and another for the US. At one point, I went with him to the US and he accidentally grabbed the wrong passport. Bingo! He was stopped and examined in great detail every time: before entering the tax free zone, before boarding, before entering the US.... It was surreal.

eloisant• 13 years ago

France actually lets you have 2 password for "incompatible countries". That's usually for Israel and Arab countries.

Maybe they will allow it for Arab countries and US too if this goes on.

duncans• 13 years ago

Same in the UK. I had two passports for a while, one for travelling to UAE, etc and another for Israel.

FreshCode• 13 years ago

As a white foreigner who has considered travelling to the US for a holiday or working in the Valley, these types of reports have a long-term chain reaction on my willingness to start thinking about packing my bags for the States. I wonder if the powers that be understand how far-reaching bad treatments of foreign travellers can be. Or maybe I'm just one developer and my sentiment has no effect in the long run. Do other developers feel the same?

CountHackulus• 13 years ago

You're not alone, I feel the same. I'm becoming increasingly hesitant to go to the US for a vacation, despite there being some places I really want to visit. I've even turned down two very good job offers in the US.

My other developer friends seem to have similar, though not quite as advanced, feelings about the US. When I mention not wanting to go to the US I get plenty of "yeah, I don't blame you" responses.

tjansen• 13 years ago

US immigration can be complicated, but if there is nothing that would raise flags in your passport, why don't you give it a try for holidays so you know what you are missing (and what not)? It's at least an interesting experience. I love staying in the US for holidays, even if I probably wouldn't want to work in the US.

dalyons• 13 years ago

You are not alone. I'm a white foreign developer currently in the valley, not working, just visiting and getting involved in the startup scene. The border and customs BS is the number 1 reason I dont think I could stay and work in the US long term, even though my home country(australia) and profession(dev) are on the 'blessed' lists. I'm frankly terrified of the US border/customs for 3 major reasons:

1) I'm afraid some ignorant/overzealous border guard will ask about all the startup events, conferences, hackathons etc that im going to and deciding that im looking to 'work' here, regardless of that being untrue.

2) There's no rules! There's only guidelines! Buy a $2000 ticket to come over to visit? No guarantee you'll be let in, its all completely arbitary and totally up to however bad a day the boarder guard is having. Turns every visit into a (low chance) potential nightmare. It's stressful, doubly so when the attitude you always face is 'prove to me your're not a danger to the US'

3) I have an 'interesting' recent history, did a bunch of travelling over the last year, including through Iran and a bunch of former soviet states, and a few uncommon asian countries. Again, if i get a border guard having a bad day I could easily end up like the OP

I hate the borders, they are arrogant, arbitrary, stressful and unpleasant, and will always make me think twice about future US visits.

laichzeit0• 13 years ago

Yeah this looks like the typical American knee-jerk overreaction to everything these days. It reminded me of the story posted on HN a while back about the guy who got 3 enemas and more asshole searches after getting pulled over for skipping a stop sign and clinching his ass cheeks a bit funny on the car seat while the officer was speaking to him.

What the fuck guys, have the terrorists won? Are you really so shit scared to live normal lives with a slight risk that bad things might go wrong now and then, that you might miss a few bombs, that a few people might die?

acuozzo• 13 years ago

What the fuck guys, have the terrorists won? Are you really so shit scared to live normal lives with a slight risk that bad things might go wrong now and then, that you might miss a few bombs, that a few people might die?

Most US citizens (in the north-east, at least) don't even think about terrorism post-9/11.

Our representatives are making these kinds of decisions for (most of) us and we're just along for the ride.

userulluipeste7• 13 years ago

"I'm not scared. But it's kind of exciting. It's like I'm in a movie. You're just doing your job. I get that."

Like in movies - yeah, "The Departed" police interview scenes comes to my mind. Stamp visas to some other foreign countries? This one was the hallmarks of visa policy in Gaddafi's Libya - the no Israeli ties tolerated (not even touristic visas). Or a raincoat? Really? Speaking about the human rights, how come this kind of behavior is still warranted?

misterjangles4• 13 years ago

The other reason he will never, ever go back to the US is because he's likely on a watch list now and will be denied any attempt to enter.

It's a shame that happened. The traveler has had an unfortunate interest in traveling to multiple countries with which the US has hostile relationships. And then entered the US in a slightly unconventional way by train via Canada. I think that's a stupid reason to deny entry because an actual "terrorist" would surely have fake documents anyway.

Perhaps the moral if the story is to get a replacement passport without the stamps if you have travelled a lot and take a direct flight.

infocollector• 13 years ago

I'm curious about a few things from this writeup:

1. Who gave this 250+ points?? Is there a way to decrease points?

2. How did this dude get his money to roam around?

In this case, the US Immigration Officers did their job right it seems. They do not have enough resources to check what this dude was doing in Yemen, Dubai, Sri Lanka, ... - better safe than sorry. Was he writing from Pakistan and Palestine as well, that he forgot to mention?

dlsx• 13 years ago

But he doesn't have a choice. The USA will not let him in regardless, so saying he won't ever return is a rather moot point. If he was let in to the country and then decided this it would have a much different perspective. He is likely not pleased that he can't get back in he states and thus it is more than likely the OP is not telling the whole truth.

peterwwillis• 13 years ago

As a life-long citizen of the US and a sometimes traveler of the world, I would compare the United States to a theme park in China. You can certainly have fun if you tow the line and pretend that there's nothing better outside the gates. Argue with the concession stand about choice and you might just get brought to a back room with no windows. Bring in food from outside and it's a 3 year jail term. But the rides are nice...

ma2rten4• 13 years ago

I hope I step on no ones toes here, but I am becoming more and more convinced that USA is simply a less developed country than Western Europe and Canada.

- At least until recently people would still go bankrupt because of medical emergencies.

- People have to save for lifetime to send their children to collage.

- Politics is populistic.

- The legal system is unjust in some areas (e.g. legal defense against bogus charges can drive you into bankruptcy).

- Immigration decisions are arbitrary and unpredictable.

- Business has a large(r) influence in the government.

I am currently staying in Thailand and since I do so I have developed a better understanding of what it means to be poor and what it means for country to be developed. If you are poor, most of the times you basic needs are still covered, but you are facing great unpredictability. A less developed country, is thus a country that can not provide certainty to it's citizens. For instance, I know of people here in Thailand who have gone from very rich (having a chauffeur on staff) to poor (sawing in a factory). I also just saw a documentary about a town in Mexico where many people life in constant fear to get kidnapped or killed and reporting to the police would actually make them a target. I could give endless examples. But I guess the point is, the US has some characteristics that normally a developed economy does not have, but which you would normally find in an emerging one.

EDIT: I am not saying that the US is an emerging economy. Most emerging economies have much graver problems than the ones I listed above.

jasonlotito• 13 years ago

I live in Canada for 10 years...

At least until recently people would still go bankrupt because of medical emergencies.

On the flip side, they get the long term care they need earlier and more reliably. They can also get this care based on medical advice as opposed to political opinions. There is a reason I moved from Canada to the US for health care, and I've paid less for that care here in the US.

People have to save for lifetime to send their children to collage.

Depends on where you want to send them. Send your children to MIT and see what you have to pay.

Politics is populistic.

It's that way in other countries as well. You just tend to hear more about it because it's the US.

The legal system is unjust in some areas (e.g. legal defense against bogus charges can drive you into bankruptcy).

Again, this can happen anywhere, and it the exception rather than the rule.

Immigration decisions are arbitrary and unpredictable.

Immigration? Sure. We still let in more than most countries (every other country?). Or are you talking about border entry?

Business has a large(r) influence in the government.

Larger? Hardly. Just as large. Do not think for a moment that large companies aren't entrenched in other governments as well.

Really, what it comes down to is this:

If you are poor, most of the times you basic needs are still covered

And that's true in the US as well. Yes, not all parts of the US are equal. We have 50 states, all with their own rules and regulations that are completely different from one another.

grecy4• 13 years ago

USA is simply a less developed country

Of course it is.

In all of the below measures, the US is not at all comparable to Developed countries, and sits squarely within Developing countries.

infant mortality, child poverty, child health and safety, life expectancy at birth, healthy life expectancy, rate of obesity, disability-adjusted life years, doctors per 1000 people, deaths from treatable conditions, rate of mental health disorders, rate of drug abuse, rate of prescription drug use, incarceration rate, rate of assaults, rate of homicides, income inequality, wealth inequality, and economic mobility.

caiob• 13 years ago

This is disgusting. And what baffles me is that Americans won't do anything to change that.

xacaxulu• 13 years ago

I'm a US Citizen, currently living abroad. I dread going through CBP when I have to come back through the Orwellian gauntlet. It's as if anyone who wants to travel outside of the US is unpatriotic. I couldn't believe how nice and professional Mexican, Belizean and Guatemalan customs agents have treated me, especially considering the disdain and contempt a seemingly large proportion of US border officials hold for members of those same countries.

abalashov• 13 years ago

I am a naturalised citizen living abroad and feel exactly the same way on my periodic return visits.

bayesianhorse• 13 years ago

In the long run, there will be no border controls or limitations on immigration in the world.

Why? Well, for one thing these controls hardly work at all. Look at the population of illegal immigrants in the US to see how a long fence with vicious patrols and vigorous immigration enforcement still doesn't stop the immigration.

Secondly border and immigration controls violate human rights, without due justification. And no, "too much immigrants are inconvenient" is no proper justification for hunting, arresting, detaining and deporting actual human beings.

Thirdly cross-border trade and immigration is too valuable for both the poorer and the richer countries.

auggierose• 13 years ago

I remember when I entered the US for the first time in 1999 through the JFK New York airport on my way to San Francisco. I would be studying there, but had all documentation for that, including some necessary documentation for entering the country, in my suitcase. Which was already in the US, while I approached the airport border control. A friendly border control woman walked with me to my suitcase, let me obtain my documentation, and then let me into the country.

Could that still happen today? I sincerely doubt it, I would just be sent back straight away.

What a shame.

blei• 13 years ago

Anyone have statistics for admittance/denials for different categories of travelers?

I keep seeing these anecdotes get lots of attention on Hacker News, and all the comments just respond with more horror story anecdotes. But I worry there might be an echo chamber effect, where people who like to comment on articles of this topic are also the people who are already accustomed to, or feel confirmation bias satisfaction at, hearing about these kinds of horror anecdotes.

It's definitely a terrible problem; I'm just wondering if Hacker News commenters are overstating the prevalence of the problem.

__matt• 13 years ago

lol he mentioned "al Qaeda", why didn't he just yell "I'm going to blow this train up" Europeans are too rational to cope with border patrol/tsa.

ilaksh• 13 years ago

The border interrogations and searches are not providing any substantive security benefit. It is amazing to me that we permit this to continue.

The terrorism myth used to justify hostile wars for resources and territorial control has also been very useful in removing the ordinary rights of citizens at the borders. We should not be surprised if this is extended to the interior of the countries.

bartkappenburg• 13 years ago

And we know that profiling in this way doesn't work: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/science/03screening.html

hackaflocka• 13 years ago

Well -- the chickens have come to roost. Terrorism of the 9/11 sort was the result of "faux-colonial faux-terrorism" that certain countries in the west had inflicted on the rest of the world for a long time.

And this sort of thing is happening because they can't just do these things to brown-skinned people, once in a while they have to do these things to white-skinned people. Faux-parity, you know.

Yummy -- tasty tasty faux-chicken.

coldshot• 13 years ago

Another european citizen getting to learn the realities of the world. As many others mentioned he has no idea about what's going on in EU for 'others'. That attitude is almost the same everywhere in the world, only enemies, minorities and passports need to be watched change.

tobeportable• 13 years ago

This website has disabled scrolling and zooming and all keyboard shortcuts in chrome. This UX ...Real ...

toadi• 13 years ago

Well avoid the questioning where you have been by requesting a new travel passport? It's clean so no questions asked?

yaix• 13 years ago

In the Philippines I had to bribe someone in order to get my visa extended for a few days.

No you don't! I have been asked for "visa extention bribes" in many countries. Do not pay them. Cite the countries law and that you follow it. Bribes kill. "Every bribe you pay helps to kill a child." Just don't!

What I learned from the story: If I ever go on a US trip, I get a fresh passport first.

Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

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