The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

https://edri.org/our-work/the-eu-is-about-to-sell-our-most-sensitive-data-to-the-us-for-visa-free-travel/

by rapnie • 3 days ago

550 351 3 days ago

As a European these texts are always a bit embarrassing. The evil USA that abuses our data...

No, European countries suck completely on their own. There are people in jail without due process, we have histories full of systematic abuse of children/people with disabilities in care units, blatant disregard for constitutional rights by executive forces and you have these cases like this surfacing every other week.

You don't need the evil USA to reject biometric data gathering by government. You just need to get your largest boot and point it at the arse of the next public official that is responsible for YOU. Not some imaginary enemy behind a bit of water ffs... rant off

The mistake isn't some agreement with the USA, the problem is that this data might be available in the first place. And yes, this is a case where government/EU is NOT able to safeguard it.

Other than that the text is correct and then we should just need to deal with the realities of needing visas again.

EDRi recommends the Commission and the Council to push back against the US government’s blackmail and refuse to sell people’s personal data

There is no leverage so I fail to see how this could succeed. Especially if said officials have zero problems with this kind of surveillance. They just have to pretend that they do.

dominotw• 2 days ago

Everyone needs an enemy to cope with their own flaws.

functionmouse• 2 days ago

If you're really planning on kicking some official's ass, you'd better do it quick before your feet are shackled.

dgellow2• 2 days ago

There is a clear difference between a local system that has access to your data, and a foreign one. You have no way to vote the foreign entity out of power, and have no say over what they are doing with your data

ekianjo• 2 days ago

in the EU you have no way to vote for things to change either

cucumber3732842• 2 days ago

There is a clear difference between a local system that has access to your data, and a foreign one. You have no way to vote the foreign entity out of power, and have no say over what they are doing with your data

On the flip side foreign entities mostly won't ruin your life over petty deviance or find a way to predate upon you like local ones will because the foreign institution cannot project violence into your jurisdiction cheaply and without opposition the way the local one can. If I could choose who got access to the exclusion of the other it would be the foreign power every single time.

I know this wasn't what you were getting at but it's worth looking at the other side of the coin too seeing as voting barely grants us any power over how local entities use our data.

bigfishrunning• 2 days ago

have no say over what they are doing with your data

It seems like you already have no say over what they're doing with your data, and they're selling it to the US.

account423• 2 days ago

Yes there is a difference: For the average no name individual, the local authorities are a much bigger threat.

raxxorraxor2• 2 days ago

The data in the hands of officials in your jurisdiction is far more relevant than the other way around and there is little control about the data for domestic usage.

dwroberts• 2 days ago

European countries suck completely on their own. There are people in jail without due process, we have histories full of systematic abuse of children/people with disabilities in care units, blatant disregard for constitutional rights by executive forces and you have these cases like this surfacing every other week.

This is kind of besides the point though right. If you think EU nations already have serious issues why would you then also export personal data to another nation that has those same issues and worse?

Vinnl2• 2 days ago

There is no leverage so I fail to see how this could succeed.

Isn't there upside to the US too if more Europeans visit the US?

account423• 2 days ago

Exactly, and of course the EU can (and should) also reciprocate and apply the same restrictions to US travellers. There kind of visa-free agreements existed in the first place because they interest both countries involved.

lukasbm• 2 days ago

The future is bleak.

Telemakhos• 2 days ago

The future is bleak if you are attempting to cross borders with a forged or stolen passport. Nobody else is adversely affected by this.

one33seven• 2 days ago

You really put a lot of trust in countries that are rules by oligarchs and where a far-right is rising to power...

shiandow3• 2 days ago

The U.S. accessing my personal data causes immediate harm and completely unacceptable risk.

goatlover• 2 days ago

That's a failure of imagination on your part. I don't agree that governments should have this kind of information about us in order to cross borders.

Eueudhsbsj32• 2 days ago

There are many reasons not to want authoritarian governments tracking your every movement other than you having stolen or forged a passport.

maratc17• 2 days ago

The point missing in the article is that, in order to enter the US, one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway.

There are two options: visa-free with the biometric data passing on the wire (no hassle), or visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one).

As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now. Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport") and only on arrival, in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure.

RandomLensman8• 2 days ago

If the US gets the data anyway, why the need for access?

tokai2• 2 days ago

To reduce friction of traveling to the US obviously.

kalleboo• 2 days ago

I would imagine it to match that the biometrics on file with the biometrics presented at the border to catch forgeries?

some_random5• 2 days ago

It's to validate that the fingerprints of the person arriving are the same as the fingerprints of the person who got the passport.

thomasahle• 2 days ago

Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once

Once for each arrival.

maratc17• 2 days ago

Not my experience the last time I entered. I travelled with a friend for whom it was his first time visiting the US. He was fingerprinted, I wasn’t (I was fingerprinted a while ago on one of my previous trips.)

_zoltan_3• 2 days ago

No. I haven't had to do it in at least two years and I travel here frequently on an EU passport.

whimsicalism10• 2 days ago

not for US citizens at least, whereas I get fingerprinted entering and exiting as an EU citizen in the EU.

bluGill3• 2 days ago

Does the EU really collect that, or only sometimes? I know the EU reserves the right to collect all that, but do they in practice?

I haven't been to the EU in a decade, but last time I was there I was standing in the customs line for non-EU residents and someone official saw my US passport in hand and directed me to the much shorter/faster EU citizens line. I walked right through customs without being checked at all.

mothballed8• 2 days ago

The EU is very sporadic. I walked straight into Sweden from a flight from Iraq and customs was not even there, and passport control waved everyone through with the most cursory of glances.

iso16316• 2 days ago

Its changed in the last year or so. Officially it started in October 2025, it's been a bit of a disaster in terms of implementation. It's called the Entry/Exit System (EES)

I've had my fingerprints taken every time I've been to the US, although not always all the fingers every time, presumably on subsequent visits if you have passport + right hand matches, they don't bother scanning left hand or thumbs.

I've certainly had the full scan on multiple occasions though.

akdev1l• 2 days ago

Yes they have biometric collection stations now.

zamadatix• 2 days ago

The last few trip I've taken through Europe this year have changed to the new fingerprinting system.

saturn86012• 2 days ago

10 years ago I walked right past the French immigration officer by accident because I didn't know where I was going. He yelled at me to get back in line, quickly stamped my passport and then shooed my along. EU has become a lot more like the US. I'd probably been detained if I had done that in the US. Last year visiting Switzerland they had these machines that auto adjust a camera to your height and there was no way you were going past the barriers by accident so you are getting your photo taken.

Things have changed in the last 10 years. I recalled from 2016, while some countries like Sweden were super strict about entry/departure (lady manually counted number of days on passport) others had been so lax it was comical: France would take one quick glance at you and stamp the passport, Ireland would at least test if you could answer a simple question with the stamp already pre positioned on the passport upon answering said question.

I presume this electronic system finally accounts for all of these differences and provides a minimum standard for exit/entry. Now it being digitized there is no wiggle room on exit/entry. Frankly with how lousy US exit/entry seems for foreigners, I don't mind the EU wanting to maintain strict standards for visitors to their borders as well. I wouldn't even mind them being extra rough on us Americans. Its totally understandable. Preferably take all the US diplomat passports to a back room as well while they are at it.

jjgreen• 2 days ago

You missed the third option: don't go to the US.

maratc17• 2 days ago

... or to EU, or to UK, or to anywhere at all. Just stay at home.

drstewart• 2 days ago

You missed a fourth option: renounce your European citizenship

surgical_fire• 2 days ago

There's a third option - Not going to the US. It is my preferred option.

meta_gunslinger• 2 days ago

Virtue signal received.

NietTim3• 2 days ago

So let the people who want to go to the US do that and don't send data from the vast majority of people who will never visit the US there. It's claimed that only data of traveler's will be retrieved by the US but it's not 2012 anymore, we all know better.

eigenspace2• 2 days ago

What's unclear to me here is this: under this new scheme does the USA get access to the biometric data of people not travelling to the USA?

dinkelberg2• 2 days ago

From the analysis linked in TFA:

"The automated query can be based on: * Identity information included in the application or in travel documents, such as name, date of birth, national ID number, and/or * the fingerprint of an individual."

Sounds like they could send requests to that computer system just based on publicly available information on a person like name and date of birth, even if the person never applied for a visa or tried to enter the US.

beej71• 2 days ago

This all reminds me about how RealID was vital to secure us from terrorism, and it took 20 years to get it in place... with no significant terrorist actions in that timeframe.

IMHO this level of tracking ain't worth the safety gained. Seems like safety gain is just the excuse at this point.

dataflow• 2 days ago

Edit: sorry, I misunderstood the post.

whimsicalism10• 2 days ago

A national ID system (standard in effectively all European countries) is table stakes for state capacity. I find the RealID opposition baffling.

matchstickman232• 2 days ago

Not to mention that to get around RealID with flights, you just have to pay $45 and you're good to go. Since we all know that bad actors don't have access to that sort of money...

cco2• 2 days ago

And also according to the DHS is apparently now insufficient to prove citizenship to vote, i.e. goal posts moved.

neonstatic• 2 days ago

one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway.

Standard practice everywhere in Asia.

shevy-java2• 2 days ago

Both the USA and the EU are doing Evil here. However had, this is not solely confind to biometric data only - this is about selling data to outside agencies, so the EU betrays EU citizens here.

testing223213• 2 days ago

in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport")

I’ve entered the US something like 150 times over 20 years. Visa free (ESTA) and on a B1 tourist visa.

I’ve been fingerprinted and photographed every single time.

jasonlotito• 2 days ago

As has been discussed elsewhere, this sounds more like you are flagged than SOP.

florakel2• 2 days ago

No, if you don’t change your passport you only have to scan your fingerprints once in the EU.

maratc17• 2 days ago

I have just returned from the EU last week and I have been fingerprinted twice — once on entry and once on exit.

The US passport holders get fingerprinted on entry only, as I’ve heard.

whimsicalism10• 2 days ago

i just traveled to the EU last week and you're wrong, got fingerprinted on entrance and exit

8fingerlouie4• 2 days ago

If you have a recent EU passport (like 6-8 years), biometrics like fingerprints are already in the chip, and you won't need to be fingerprinted upon arrival or departure, at least in theory, I wouldn't be surprised if some bureaucrat decided that the passport data can't be trusted and we'll fingerprint everybody anyway.

bilekas3• 2 days ago

in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure.

You absolutely don't. If you've done it once on your passport/ID you don't need to do it again. And infact there are fast track autonomous lanes that you can just scan your EU passport with biometric chip and fly through. (In theory, there's always idiots who don't realise they don't have it)

elAhmo• 2 days ago

People without EU citizenship also enter EU.

Recent changes to EES system have been a disaster, and as op has pointed out, people do have to scan their biometrics more than once coming from a non-EU country. In some cases even if you are a EU resident in case the airport has no specific queues.

input_sh2• 2 days ago

With the introduction of EES system (whose implementation was completed only a few months ago), the full data of non-EU citizens gets collected the first time we enter the EU and then we have to verify it every subsequent time.

Not much of a hassle at airports due to the availability of self-service kiosks, somewhat of a hassle when crossing with a car, and infuriatingly annoying when using a mass transit option like a bus or a train where everyone has to step outside and wait in line to do that, adding about 20-30 minutes to the border crossing.

alistairSH3• 2 days ago

I just visited Italy. We absolutely passed through biometric scans on arrival and departure from FCO (US passports, vacation so no paper visa).

And then again at DUB outbound (US pre-clearance, so the normal Global Entry kiosk).

All of this was expected. The only thing that surprise me was there was no passport check or any other custom/immigration at Dublin on the inbound leg. We just walked from the arrival gate to the departure gate and that was that.

thatfrenchguy• 2 days ago

You don’t get fingerprints collected on departure, just on arrival. Unless you go through automated gates maybe?

maratc17• 2 days ago

Not my experience: I’ve been fingerprinted on both the arrival and the departure. There was no automatic gate on the departure, just an officer.

US passport holders only get fingerprinted on the arrival, as I’ve heard.

whimsicalism10• 2 days ago

wrong

isodev• 2 days ago

Also worth nothing that if you’ve verified your ID on LinkedIn or anything that uses Persona or some other flavour of Palantir - the US already has all this data and much more.

encoderer• 2 days ago

Flew into CDG two days ago. US citizens. Passport control did not take fingerprints from any of us.

andai• 2 days ago

As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now.

Does this also apply if you arrive by dinghy?

lazide4• 2 days ago

We must close this dinghy gap!

DocTomoe2• 2 days ago

With the major distinction being that a lot of Europeans have absolutely no intention of ever visiting the United States, a country with a history of sometimes more, sometimes less hostility and aggressive intelligence agencies.

If you want to visit a hellhole, go through the hassle. But don't hand out all of our data just because you want to do joyrides.

maratc17• 2 days ago

Can't see where "the major distinction" lies. It's also true that a lot of US citizens have absolutely no intention of ever visiting Europe -- as to hostilities, well the last two World Wars didn't exactly start in the US.

Alive-in-2025• 2 days ago

I hate all this biometric scanning on all sides. As an American it makes me not want to visit the EU to avoid being scanned, and I'd understand the other way too if an EU member was visiting the us.

In the US there have been notorious mistakes of using biometrics to falsely recognize an unknown criminal. Does this happen in the EU too?

It's probably too late but we should try to get rid of this.

whimsicalism10• 2 days ago

I suspect that false imprisonment/recognition cases are lessened with biometrics, not increased. I absolutely believe you can point me to individual cases though.

8fingerlouie4• 2 days ago

In the US there have been notorious mistakes of using biometrics to falsely recognize an unknown criminal. Does this happen in the EU too?

This my major concern with biometrics and DNA databases. It makes the cops lazy. "Subjects fingerprints and DNA was found on the crime scene, so he's clearly the murderer". That flips the evidence around, suddenly "I" have to prove I'm innocent as opposed to the law proving I'm guilty.

If you can simply collect all DNA and fingerprints from a crime scene, look it up in a database and compile a list of suspects, it also eliminates the possibility that the real perpetrator didn't leave DNA or fingerprints.

Sure, DNA has its use, like "here's the murder weapon, and it has the suspects DNA and fingerprints on it". It's not a guarantee, but it's a closer match.

As for "does that happen in Europe as well", unfortunately yes. There have been cases where the police have found fingerprints and DNA and announced they had the suspect they were looking for, only for said person to be cleared weeks or months later.

As a general rule, DNA and fingerprints cannot be the sole evidence in EU courts. The law will need find more evidence before they can convict you. Also, no death penalty, and "lifetime" in the EU is usually around 10 years, so not a lot of people are found innocent after 30 years.

charlieyu1• 2 days ago

I’m just annoyed at all the visa-free claims while they charge you and you need a pre-approval anyway.

HDBaseT• 2 days ago

EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now on every arrival and departure.

This world is very depressing. I think this may be my last year on the planet.

markdown4• 2 days ago

visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one).

Since US-issued visas are multiple entry for 10yrs, it's relatively not a hassle at all.

maratc17• 2 days ago

   > US-issued visas are multiple entry for 10yrs

Some of them but definitely not all of them.

   > it's relatively not a hassle at all

I guess you have never had to hunt for the online queue at the embassy and never had to travel (potentially hundreds of miles) for the interview at that embassy. In which case, lucky you! However "it's not a hassle for me" is different from "it's not a hassle at all".

yeputons2• 1 day ago

If you're lucky with your citizenship. Others get 3yrs or 1yr max. And that's after administrative processing if you're unlucky, which might take years: https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2020/11/09/a-us-visa-in-937-days...

And for some passports in the last, say, six years, the probability is significantly increased. There is no official information as far as I know, just some anecdotical evidence from forums.

And before all of that you have to remember all your trips for the last 10 years to enter into DS-160 (you learn to keep a spreadsheet after the first time you do that, UK visas require that as well). And secure an appointment, which (since 2025) must happen in the country of your citizenship, or the country of your residence, which you should prove (sometimes it takes years to get residency documents in some EU countries). If you're unlucky, the waiting time for an appointment might be measured in years too. If you get a waiting time after all, sometimes there are just no appointments available whatsoever with no extra information.

Attending a company event is, of course, not a valid reason to get an expedited appointment. At least not that I've heard.

And I'm sure there are even more tricky things that I haven't heard of.

greatgib• 1 day ago

First it could be something depending on you enrolling like airport fastpass and second it would be a feature that it is complicated for both side to record and process the info so that they have the incentive to do the minimum possible.

But don't be naive, clearly US is not pushing so strong on this feature that it is clearly not just to facilitate your travel and reduce processing time but because they know that they will be able to tap as a friser in the best biometric database of foreign citizens that they could.

Vinnl2• 2 days ago

It's not clear to me if this would allow access to all biometric data, or "just" to that of people crossing the US border?

And for the latter, what data are we talking about? If it's mostly fingerprints, don't those already get collected upon crossing the border? And can't they already be read from a passport's chip?

some_random5• 2 days ago

It's just for people crossing the border, and yeah it's mostly fingerprints. The point is mainly to detect fraudulent passports, and the rest of the data is self explanatory (the US obviously is interested in people visiting that EU agencies have flagged for being potential terrorists).

calgoo2• 2 days ago

do they actually say that they can only do a lookup when checking a visa, or are we giving api access to the US government and saying "Dont do evil" >

NietTim3• 2 days ago

Supposedly it will be only requested for people crossing into the US. But it's not 2012 anymore and we all know better.

andix• 2 days ago

I guess the US can freely request data on any citizen. The home countries don't know if you are actually traveling into the US. Direct flights are not the only option to reach the US.

MarceliusK3• 2 days ago

If it lets the US use that identity to query European databases and retrieve associated information, that is a much larger change

cm21872• 2 days ago

I fail to understand the distinction between an ESTA and a visa to be honest. You need to do the paperwork in advance, pay, provide all sort of personal information, and it can be denied, and if approved only for a limited amount of time. Given that both the EU and the UK have reciprocated, it is a fiction that there exists some visa free travel between these 3 zones. And the more hassle you create, the less tourism you will get.

christkv• 2 days ago

All it means that you do not have to go to the embassy and stand in line

basisword• 2 days ago

I've never had to do this for a visa for countries that required one. It was all online.

inigyou• 2 days ago

A visa allows you entry, an ESTA doesn't allow you entry but just says you're allowed to travel to the border to see if you'll be allowed entry or not.

It's more for the airline than for you. If you have an ESTA and get refused entry, the airline isn't fined for bringing someone unauthorized to the border.

raverbashing3• 2 days ago

A visa allows you entry

Nope

It's the same deal as you mention above

toymin• 2 days ago

A visa allows you entry

That's incorrect, holding a B1/B2 US visa only allows you to arrive at the port of entry, the actual permission to enter the country is always left to the border officer interviewing you

rocqua2• 2 days ago

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-...

It states regarding a visa: "A visa allows a foreign citizen to travel to a U.S. port-of-entry (generally an airport) and request permission to enter the United States. A visa does not guarantee entry into the United States.

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS), U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officials at the port-of-entry have authority to permit or deny admission to the United States. "

account423• 2 days ago

Yeah is a far cry from other countries where you can just show up and maybe fill out an A5 form on arrival.

izacus3• 2 days ago

The amount of data you need to provide for ESTA and a B1/B2 US Visa is not remotely comparable - the visa process has way more steps and requirements.

iso16316• 2 days ago

So it's a "lightweight" visa.

The information you need to provide as an Iranian after a P1 visa is not remotely comparable to a British citizen after a B1 visa either.

bluerobotcat• 2 days ago

But then some countries have visas on arrival that are less of a hassle than ESTA.

tremon3• 2 days ago

"you" being the operative word. The rest of the information will just be supplied by your government instead of yourself.

cm21872• 2 days ago

That's about to change, they are about to introduce a change that will require bios of all relatives, all social media accounts, email addresses, etc. Haven't looked at a US visa recently but it seems as invasive.

bigfatkitten• 2 days ago

Depends on the visa.

A-1 and A-2 for example require almost nothing beyond a photograph, and a letter saying you’re travelling on behalf of your government.

kdheiwns2• 2 days ago

They're identical but countries pretend they're different. I got an evisa when I went to Indonesia and India. For each country, the process involved uploading a picture, filling in some basic details, and paying a fee. I was approved in 30 seconds for each. I'm pretty sure it was automatic.

ESTA is supposed to be a lower hurdle than a visa. But from what I've heard, approvals take longer and quite a few people get rejected.

Countries like to pretend they're still visa free, but honestly, it's just a pain in the ass and I'd rather they call it a visa. It's very, very easy to book a plane to a country, see all info indicating its visa free and you can just go, then right as you're about to head out, you decide to check for the 50th time just to be sure... and it turns out there's some "visa free process" for your country called EDtdjvubHHVJVF or some other random assortment of letters that involves a 2 hour application process and 24-72 hours (business days only) for approval results to come in. A visa would be preferable because it's more transparent.

iso16316• 2 days ago

ESTAs used to be instant for me, but last time I got one (2023) it took 2 days

The US is particularly bad as you need an ESTA to transit. I had a friend nearly caught out by that on a flight from London to Lima which involved changing in Miami. When changing plane from an international to international flight in most countries you get off a plane, maybe go through security, and then get on another plane. In the US this isn't a thing. You have to immigrate into the country for 20 minutes.

twothreeone2• 2 days ago

You don't need to visit an embassy for ESTA, for a Visa this in-person interview at the embassy is required.

ExoticPearTree2• 2 days ago

ESTA and visas are two different things:

- with ESTA, your country of origin is "trusted" and individuals in general undergo a lower level of scrutiny at a US port of entry.

- with a VISA, you country of origin is "not trusted" and individuals are granted the right to travel to the US after they undergo interviews at an US embassy and get approved.

Neither is a right to enter the US. Just a right to be transported by air/ship to a US port of entry. If the CBP lets you in it is a different story.

This is the US version. Other countries have their own rules.

raverbashing3• 2 days ago

And only one gives you a sticker on your passport

(And funnily enough the Visa lasts for a longer time)

everfrustrated• 2 days ago

It's to get around bilateral arrangements where counties have mutually agreed to not require visas (IE visa-on-arrival).

This allows doing visa type checks but not technically violating the agreement as it's not called a visa.

sib• 2 days ago

I spent around 20 minutes arguing with ChatGPT when I asked the question and we eventually came to this conclusion... It's a visa that's not a visa.

MarceliusK3• 2 days ago

The distinction still matters legally and administratively

dilyevsky• 2 days ago

If you try actually filling out DS-160 and going through the rest of the process the difference will become really clear.

artisinal2• 2 days ago

Last time I purchased a new passport my fingerprints got scanned and sent to a French private company. Not sure if this is worse or not.

tokai2• 2 days ago

»It is on this basis that EU countries would then adopt their own bilateral EBSP agreements directly with the US (or adapt their existing arrangements).«

So nobody has sold anybody out yet. The solution is to never visit the USA.

maratc17• 2 days ago

You seem to have forgotten the first part of the "solution": be an EU citizen.

For those who are neither US nor EU citizens, both immigration systems are a hassle, and in my experience the EU's is sadly a worse one.

edelbitter2• 2 days ago

The solution is to never visit the USA.

The negotiation is only necessitated by the insistence on making travel not a prerequisite for potential harm. The US requests to query information beyond the validity of documents they can prove to have been physically presented to US officers.

some_random5• 2 days ago

What a stupid, hysterical claim. This "sensitive data" is just what's on your passport, fingerprints, criminal history, and terrorism flags (from European agencies), only for people crossing the border. I don't see how you could defend not sharing any of that.

chrystalkey• 2 days ago

...uhm You are happy to share your home address and everything else to securely identify you to a government acting increasingly erratic? Because I am not. I would be happy if terrorism-flagged people are shared across borders, but not everyone.

Remember once the dataset is there, it is not ever going to go away, regardless of who is in power

some_random5• 2 days ago

If you don't want the US to have your date of birth, photo, fingerprints, etc then don't go to the US. It's that easy.

villish4• 2 days ago

You share your thoughts, ideas, likes and dislikes on American sites like this one. Possibly also have a YouTube account you've actively used daily for years. You don't seem to have a problem with that, why? I would argue the totality of your activity on American sites would be much more revealing about you than your fingerprints and home address.

kylehotchkiss2• 2 days ago

Your home address is required for a US visa and for many other countries visas around the world. This is not a recent thing.

rocqua2• 2 days ago

Under the assumption that this framework is somewhat sane and only shares biometric data of those people who actually request an ESTA, I don't see the issue.

This data already leaks whenever you travel legally to the US, because they take it from you as a requirement of entry. All this does is let them check the data they take on entry against the provided data. Which seems fair. The fact this data is already in passports is a very different matter, but that is something the EU has done voluntarily.

edelbitter2• 2 days ago

those people who actually request an ESTA

I order to know who actually requested it, information needs to be shared that previously was not. (I can think of technical schemes to limit this to less scary recipients and data, but however you do it, some necessary side-effect remains: Citizens of the EU who do not make such request cannot remain entirely unaffected.)

internet2000• 2 days ago

Alarmism doesn't help anyone.

nonick• 2 days ago

Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU and don't even benefit from visa-free travel to the US.

speak_plainly• 2 days ago

This is a good thing for travellers.

In border security there are generally two camps, one that uses data and intelligence to go after the worst, large-scale criminal operations and networks, and generally makes travelling easy for the average person, and the other is like traditional cops using traditional tactics… the kind that will miss the person smuggling a kilogram of cocaine in their suitcase but will go after the old man who didn’t declare a pair of socks he bought on a trip. They generally make travel awful.

Support the intelligence-driven side of border security and reject the traditional cop camp.

samsartor• 2 days ago

I want to agree with this. My fear is that governments and corporations love using technology to launder evil shit. Once security is automated, entire groups of people can be quickly and effortlessly disenfranchised by flipping a bool on a server somewhere. No appeal, no recourse, no human faces. You get to find out from some LLM that you aren't allowed in the country anymore because the "algorithm" identitifed you as a risk. uwu so sawd

It only works if the "intellence-driven security" is being developed in good faith.

khuey2• 2 days ago

That already happens. Witness all the random "bans" and "pauses" Trump has instituted against various nationalities and groups of people at the border.

afarah1• 2 days ago

The same can be said about Flock, or other surveillance state mechanisms.

It's good for security, it's more convenient than police doing police work.

Until it's not. Until it's hacked or abused as powerful mechanisms commonly are.

arlort• 2 days ago

There's some level of difference to be fair

Hacking is a concern in both but the bigger issue is potential for abuse of power.

In the case of border checks the target is by necessity someone that isn't a citizen. This means that:

1. We generally afford them less safeguards than citizens so it creates less precedent (both legal and in terms of overton window)

2. The potential for abuse is ultimately less because a traveler on a short term visa is unlikely to still be in the country / unable to leave if a hostile government comes to power and intends to abuse the data

Also fingerprints and a picture are significantly less invasive than pervasive video surveillance in public spaces

CrimsonRain4• 2 days ago

Some amount of surveillance leads to a better society. See SG. Flock is needed for current USA. That's why idiots are up against it.

traceroute662• 2 days ago

In border security there are generally two camps

Well, there is a third camp. Israeli-style bio-social profiling of 100% of travelers.

That really makes travel awful !

anvuong5• 2 days ago

Tbf Israel has more concern than travelers' comfort, given everything happening around them AND maybe within them too.

skrebbel• 2 days ago

Hey that’s not what “intelligence” means. What you’re arguing for is data-driven automation, taking the human out of the loop. You’re describing “computer says no” level border control, with Google-level human support (ie none) and somehow spinning that as better than real human cops doing what they do best.

Maybe this resonates in the American case where cops are notoriously undertrained and over-violent, but I gotta say it sounds extremely dystopian to me. All-power computerized control isn’t “intelligence”.

It’s also a false dichotomy. You can have lots of automation with humans in the loop. Humans can use automation to be faster and this is common.

twothreeone2• 2 days ago

one that uses data and intelligence to go after the worst, large-scale criminal operations and networks

History shows that the main question with government and data collection is not "what X makes life easier for citizens" but "who collects/uses X and for what purpose". In the happy case, this may be all well and peachy. The case people rightfully worry about is not that case.

was_a_dev2• 2 days ago

As an aside, I always find it amusing that as a British person that have visited both the US and the Schengen area since the new entry/exit system. Both the US and EU have taken my biometric information (i.e fingerprints) but the UK government has not.

Ylpertnodi• 2 days ago

My UK passport from 8 years ago has biometric info.

was_a_dev2• 18 hours ago

Biometric data in UK passports is nothing more than the digital storage of the information in your passport (name, age, passport number, facial photo). The UK government does not collect any additional data

bambax• 2 days ago

Borders are generally insane. But they are especially rich coming from countries, like the US or many European countries that got most of their wealth from pillaging other territories.

Walls and steel doors are bad enough but it's a good thing we're not birds, or else the world would be covered with wire mesh.

khurs• 2 days ago

I assume this works both ways? And USA is in return 'about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel' too

gib4442• 2 days ago

On "selling out" claims. Yet again people not reading the article and trying to misrepresent who was the driving force:

In 2022, the US government announced that it would require access to biometric databases of countries if they wish to keep visa exemption for their citizens travelling to the US

Big bad eu !!11!?!

throw-the-towel3• 2 days ago

So, that wasn't even Trump.

anvuong5• 2 days ago

Biden kept a lot of Trump's policies inact, he just wasn't loud about it.

gib4442• 2 days ago

I wasn't trying to highlight who was president or not

pluc4• 2 days ago

Why isn't screening tech globalized on a planetary level? Shouldn't someone like INTERPOL take care of that?

petcat2• 2 days ago

I doubt the US would ever outsource something like this (border security) to an international organization like INTERPOL. It uses INTERPOL to track down and catch wanted people abroad, but that's it.

pluc4• 2 days ago

What do you think is stopping the US? It could be privacy but I don't think that would hold up in the public court as the US is way worse than EU when it comes to privacy regulations... what else? Control?

And we're not talking about "border security" in its entirety, just the screening/identifying part.

anvuong5• 2 days ago

No chance the world powers (US, China, France, UK, etc.) will allow something like that unless they are the one who create and enforce it. It's basically the first line of defense for homeland security: don't let terrorists into your country.

pluc4• 2 days ago

Isn't that why there's an org like Interpol with 192 countries "members" or "represented" I'm not sure which. Everyone owns it together kinda thing

EasyMark• 2 days ago

This is not something I have a real issue with. Most of my privacy concerns are with my own government (the USA, Flock, various TLAs have unfettered communications access in violation of the 4th amendment, etc). I think the exchange of information should be mutual though. I don't care if they want to check me out before I enter their country, seems like a basic step. However, that info should not be shared until one gets a ticket/visa to said foreign country.

joeblubaugh• 2 days ago

This is exactly what the EU does for foreigners entering

cromka3• 2 days ago

It would be the same if US also shared US nationals fingerprints with EU.

maratc17• 2 days ago

Instead, the EU is going to collect the US nationals' fingerprints at the EU points of entry.

trilogic• 2 days ago

I do not agree and do not consent to give away my biometric data. With which authority is this happening? Some are about to loose their job.

cromka3• 2 days ago

Sell? Is US paying for it?

NietTim3• 2 days ago

So let me get this straight:

- Currently travelers to the US need to give biometric data each time they enter

- New DB connection between EU and US for this purpose

- People will _still_ need to give biometric data each time they enter in order to validate that they carry valid information

Further more, they claim that _the US_ will only request data from travelers. But, my country doesn't know if I travel and where. So the supposed privacy guarantees are empty claims. It's not 2012 anymore. Everyone knows better, as soon as they get access to that DB, they will start working on scraping all data from it.

There is 0 upsides to this.

hexo• 2 days ago

Biometric database thats supposed to not exist at all in the first place? Interesting.

angry_octet• 2 days ago

It shouldn't be possible for the US to request this data without the passport being physically present at a US entry facility (border, airport checkin scan, consulate) where fingerprints/photos are actually compared.

Before that point, only passport information tuples should be queryable, i.e., "Is {passport number, name, dob, pob, issue date, expiry} valid?".

We should remember that the current (and likely future) administration is actively hostile to transgender and intersex people, and persecutes US citizens with changed gender identifiers. Discrimination based on ethnicity is only one Overton-lurch away.

cloudie78• 2 days ago

Democracy at work. Can we have a referendum on this? Or dirty peasants don’t get a say in this?

JodieBenitez• 2 days ago

Do it the EU way: ask the question, then ignore the answer.

raverbashing3• 2 days ago

These are the people that support "Decolourizing digital rights" (whatever that means).

Sounds like they also don't believe in borders or immigration enforcement, etc

I can't take them seriously

shevy-java2• 2 days ago

This kind of reveals that the EU is undermined by lobbyists. The real actions are too obvious - this is an act of betrayal by EU "politicians".

Then again this is not uncommon either:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_corruption_scandal_at_th...

At the least the orange king does not hide his attempt to pillage as much money as possible while refusing to explain who all visited the sexy Epstein islands. I have a ... slight suspicion some billionaires not known yet have also partied with underage girls there.

alden5• 2 days ago

Am I the only person increasingly paranoid about the inevitability of having to give my fingerprints to the government? Once they're out there you can't exactly change them and in the future i'm sure imaging technology will become significantly advanced enough that a portable device could be made that identify everyone who touched a scanned surface. Maybe it's just a phobia I've had since I was super young but fingerprints feel like a really sensitive piece of biometrics to give up. I live in the US and have traveled to europe a few times but have never been fingerprinted as far as I'm aware.

_zoltan_3• 2 days ago

Finally.

WhereIsTheTruth• 2 days ago

The EU is not a serious institution, it's run by tasteless fraudsters

0 vision for the future

I could use much stronger words, but it's not worth it

How can you rally talents and visionaries when rulers are acting like that

Such a waste

LIMEVINCE• 2 days ago

What a surprise, I heard nobody wants to travel to the US anyways. EU leaders seem to be making concessions for pretty much nothing. USA first needs to make the country desirable to visit before discussing ways to make it easier to come into the country -__-

protocolture• 2 days ago

Actually a plot point in Charles Stross' Empire Games trilogy from memory.

heyaco• 2 days ago

dirty -scus. saw this christian make mabies with those things

mancerayder• 2 days ago

Was Global Entry in the US a tactic to trick us into giving up our biometric data for speedy re-entry? I can say it's now barely faster than waiting behind the line for the stamper officials in their booths.

hulitu• 2 days ago

Sell it ? That's a change. They give it for free.

usr1106• 2 days ago

Unless it has changed recently Germany has no general database of biometric data. Of course law enforcement has for the cases they work on, but for the average passport holder the data gets destroyed once the passport has been accepted by the citizen. So it remains only decentralized in passport chips.

It's probably an exception in EU.

lbschenkel• 2 days ago

It is exactly the same in Sweden: biometrics are stored only until the passport/ID is manufactured, then destroyed. Only copy is on the chip.

At least this is what the law says, and how it is supposed to be. Reality on the ground, though? I am skeptical that the implementation is as perfect as the law requires it to be, especially judging by the quality of the average government IT system...

The EU is about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel

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