Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

https://www.wired.com/story/ford-kills-electric-f-150-lightning-for-hybrid/

by sacred-rat • 7 months ago

439 888 7 months ago

vondur3• 7 months ago

I would imagine for 80% of truck owners, having an electric truck is fine. However, if you are towing or carrying heavy loads, they are a bad choice. I suspect most F-150 drivers barely ever do these sorts of things. I have an F-150 but do use it to tow my travel trailer on vacation.

cpursley2• 7 months ago

The vast majority of pickup truck owners in America don't use the capabilities enough to make them worth the purchase; the phenomenon is mostly cultural.

kelseyfrog• 7 months ago

cultural

Specifically for the American male, the F-150 is a form of gender expression and gender affirming transportation.

XOPJ• 7 months ago

I bought an F-150 last year and compared the lightening to their new Hybrid-Powerboost models. The hybrid was better in every single way. I have the same 30amp generator hookup in the bed of the truck, but instead of finding a charger to refuel the truck I can simply put another 25gallons in the tank and head to another job/project.

If they hadn't made the hybrid truck so effective the lightning would have had a chance. I get around 20+mpg on average with a ~600lb load always in the bed.

tacticus• 7 months ago

However, if you are towing or carrying heavy loads, they are a bad choice.

given the testing that has been done on this it's the aerodynamics that matter more than the weight.

I suspect most F-150 drivers barely ever do these sorts of things

I would suspect that most of these oversized "angry boy" utes only ever see a non sealed surface when they're driving to park on footpaths.

wat10000• 7 months ago

Trouble is, while most truck drivers pretty much never tow or drive off road, most of them imagine that they will, so the truck still needs to be capable of it in order to sell. Or at least needs to appear capable.

rascul2• 7 months ago

given the testing that has been done on this it's the aerodynamics that matter more than the weight.

At highway speeds with minimal need for acceleration.

sanj• 7 months ago

Hard disagree: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4ebBSjmfouGjcGqm9

xgulfie2• 7 months ago

That is one truck

Workaccount22• 7 months ago

However, if you are towing or carrying heavy loads, they are a bad choice

The thing has 800 lb-ft of torque, it has absolutely no problem towing or pulling heavy stuff.

The issue is if you need to tow stuff long distances. That's where is becomes a headache. But bringing your huge boat 30 miles to the lake will be no issue.

charlesabarnes• 7 months ago

Wow, I was under the impression that these were selling incredibly well.

I started to appreciate Ford's strategy recently after they lost my faith after they killed off sedans in the US. I'm now confused again by the company's strategy

nomel2• 7 months ago

As with all but a few EV manufactures [1], they were losing money each sale ( >$30k)[2].

[1] https://www.carscoops.com/2025/03/only-four-ev-brands-are-pr...

[2] https://www.theautopian.com/ford-lost-36000-for-every-electr...

api2• 7 months ago

The only two car companies to make any meaningful profit on EVs were founded as EV companies first?

That’s not that surprising. It’s very hard to make elephants dance.

If that remains true it means all these auto companies will be dead in 25 years, or eternally strung along on government support.

If there were no tariffs or other market barriers I get the impression that BYD would bulldoze the entire world and there would be one car maker with >80% of the market.

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

They were not losing money on each sale, that's silly. Your article is counting the entire EV R&D budget and extrapolating. For every Lightning they sold, the margins improved. They just did not sell enough of them to make the overall venture profitable.

AmVess• 7 months ago

Sales drove off a cliff. The larger problem is that Ford has lost multiples of tens of billions trying to do EV's.

heresie-dabord• 7 months ago

Ford has lost multiples of tens of billions trying to do EVs.

To the observer, Ford has done nothing right in recent years except to build combustion F150s for US buyers.

AtlasBarfed• 7 months ago

We simply need an engineering generation of 50 mile range PHEV vehicles. It will get a huge percentage of low-efficiency driving electrified, won't be too big of a burden on the grid, educate more people on EV-style driving, adds regen braking, should still be able to provide high-torque towing and driving.

vondur3• 7 months ago

Yeah, Ford makes the F-150 Powerboost which is a hybrid version, but no plugin capability. I'd love to see a 50 mile plug in hybrid version of their truck line (Maverick, Ranger, F150)

sgerenser• 7 months ago

So basically a return of the Chevy Volt? I drive one for about 5 years before I went full EV and I could do about 80% of my driving on all electric.

ChuckMcM2• 7 months ago

https://archive.ph/k2S9O for those who have read their last free article.

Interesting that Rivian seems to be doing fine in this space.

oconnore2• 7 months ago

I was considering getting a Rivian and decided that in fact I would probably not allow the 24 year old dude at my local construction supply co to use a skid steer to drop a load of gravel into the bed of my $75k+ electric vehicle.

So instead I got a used Ford F150 (gas) and when the skid steer guy drops gravel into the bed I feel fine.

ChuckMcM2• 7 months ago

There is a lot to be said for that perspective. I wonder if any PMs have considered making the bed of the truck a FRU that you can swap out at home.

bink4• 7 months ago

There's always a chance the new Scout will fit that model. I'm not getting my hopes up though. It seems every company that releases an EV truck says they'll sell it for $30-40k and then suddenly it's $80k+.

1970-01-017• 7 months ago

Pro-tip: Rivians have a class V tow capability. Rent a dump trailer and let it take the damage. Both your wallet and back will thank you.

JKCalhoun• 7 months ago

And I hope they eat Ford's lunch.

Wild time—seeing the country in full retrograde—back to the Middle Ages it seems.

LUmBULtERA3• 7 months ago

I hope that Rivian does fine, but they still aren't profitable are they?

bink4• 7 months ago

They turned a gross profit, but they've only been selling vehicles for three years. It'll be several more before they are a profitable company. No company can build out two manufacturing hubs (hundreds of millions each) and turn a profit so quickly.

vondur3• 7 months ago

They are a luxury brand. I don't think that they directly compete with Fords. I do see a lot of them here in SoCal.

insane_dreamer• 7 months ago

Because the people who buy Rivian aren't people who would buy an F-150 even if electric.

And the current F-150 owners aren't going to switch to an EV version for cultural, ideological or practical reasons related to their particular use (i.e., towing in rural areas).

So, who is the F-150 Lightening target market?

izend2• 7 months ago

I am actually surprised they cancelled the F150 Lightning, I see a lot of them the Metro Vancouver area where a lot of contractors, (gardeners, pool maintenance, labourers, etc...) are driving them as electricity is super cheap here and gasoline is quite expensive.

cogman105• 7 months ago

That's exactly where I expected this thing to sell like hotcakes. It's a perfect fleet vehicle for many businesses.

I think the price just wasn't right.

privong• 7 months ago

I thought the same thing too, when it was announced. But I suspect, in addition to the price, that not being able to buy a medium or long bed version also harmed fleet sales. The short bed being the only option is probably a pretty big limitation for groups who are buying them as fleet vehicles.

ponector• 7 months ago

How it is better than a van?

turnsout• 7 months ago

Wasn't the original announced price like $39k? Did they ever hit that?

m4632• 7 months ago

it seems gas in vancouver (canada) is $4.50usd/gal ($1.18usd/liter)

that said, I'll bet the new one will be interesting for them, as I'll bet the gas motor can be used as an on-site generator which they might buy anyway.

aorloff• 7 months ago

I am reading this article and thinking, darn there's going to be too many people like me trying to find these on the used market, and the prices will stay high.

Big fancy expensive powerstroke mega trucks with a person-high wall in the front look cool, and occasionally haul heavy things, but little white trucks that are busted up and 20 years old do all the duty. And those trucks drive way less than the range on the lightning each day. Once these lightnings price down to work truck level, I expect to see them on the road a long time.

epolanski4• 7 months ago

Gotta say, know few F150 EV owners and they all love it.

ninkendo2• 7 months ago

electricity is super cheap here and gasoline is quite expensive

Yeah, not everyone has that arrangement though. I was shocked (shocked!) when I realized that for my plug-in hybrid van, running it on gas can be cheaper than charging it, depending on the time of day and time of year.

Where I live, peak hours electricity is $0.22/KWh in the summertime during peak hours, or $0.18/KWh off-peak. My van gets ~32 MPG on its tank, but also ~32 miles on a 16KWh charge. So it’s easy math, 1 gallon = 16KWh, so $0.22 * 16 = $3.52, so gas has to be more expensive than that to be worth it. Off-peak it’s $0.18 * 16 = $2.88, which makes it barely worth it to charge, with gas prices near me being close to $3/gallon.

(I have since bought solar panels and now it’s basically free to charge my car, but I can totally understand why electric vehicles just don’t work out cost-wise for a lot of people, even when accounting for ongoing fuel costs…)

Workaccount22• 7 months ago

I can confirm that the F150 Lightning community is basically Canadians.

standeven2• 7 months ago

Yes, tons of these in BC. My friend and several neighbours love theirs.

Andrex• 7 months ago

The Maverick used to be the truck but they've jacked it by like almost twice the price since debut. With so much "upmarket momentum" the e-F150's days were numbered.

Now I'm sitting here wondering when we'll get another small Ford truck again. This same exact story played out with the Ranger and the decades without a smaller option sucked then too.

bigstrat2003• 7 months ago

Now I'm sitting here wondering when we'll get another small Ford truck again. This same exact story played out with the Ranger...

It's so bizarre to me because the Ranger used to be small. But then they became the size that an F-150 used to be (i.e. sane truck size), while the F-150 became enormous. Supposedly it's due to perverse incentives from regulation, so I wouldn't hold my breath for a smaller truck if that is indeed the case.

oconnore2• 7 months ago

I'm not sure which dimensions you're talking about, but in terms of bed size the F-150 has been very consistent over the years (although I think Crew Cabs — although they always existed — have become more popular). The Ranger still cannot fit a full sized sheet of plywood flat in the bed.

Quick research: the new Ranger's bed size has only increased 0.9" (width) relative to the 1990 version. Bed length seems to be the same.

darkstar999• 7 months ago

They've jacked the base price up from ~21k to ~27k. Certainly not almost twice the price.

_russross• 7 months ago

I bought one of the first 2022 Maverick Hybrids and took delivery in January 2022. At the time my build came in at MSRP of $25k (+ tax). I just built the closest equivalent on the Ford website (several standard features then are options now) and it came out to >$34k. Not double, but that feels like whole different price category for the same truck in 4 years.

tigranbs• 7 months ago

Maybe it is just me, but the “universal” platform architecture seems a bit inefficient. I think, with a software-first mindset and modularity in Hardware products, it is insane to think efficiency first, especially when the goal is to make it cheaper to produce and operate.

nebula88045• 7 months ago

Its speed of execution. Tesla made designs and parts common across Model3/Y and BYD are excellent at this. However Tesla/BYD seem to move at the speed of a silicon valley company while legacies keep thinking in Model years. You can't do that in an era where the tech is rapidly evolving.

jermaustin1• 7 months ago

That is a disappointment. I was hoping that they would be introducing a new smaller EV truck in either the Maverick or Ranger line. I have no need for a large truck when something half the size handles all the hauling/towing I need.

anticorporate• 7 months ago

Ditto. I'm a current Ranger owner, now seriously considering the Slate if it actually ever makes it to market.

psunavy032• 7 months ago

I know they're marketing on price, but they really whiffed not offering AWD on that thing. Living in the Northwest, that's a total dealbreaker both from a skiing perspective and a getting-to-work-when-it-snows perspective.

Spivak• 7 months ago

Ford still plans to produce a midsize electric pickup truck with a target starting price of about $30,000, to be available in 2027. That will be the first of the “affordable” electric vehicle models it’s currently designing at a skunkworks studio in California, which are slated to use a “universal” platform architecture that will make the vehicles cheaper to produce.

Wish granted?

bpt33• 7 months ago

I wonder how many people will be scared off by them killing off the lightning pretty quickly.

I'm in the market for an EV truck but none of the current offerings have made me want to pull the trigger, and my 10 year old ICE truck keeps chugging along just fine so far.

dyauspitr6• 7 months ago

That’s too bad, I love my lightning. I spend about $20/month on home charging, love the acceleration and it’s good enough to haul all the things I need for my small farm.

Also, it’s great for long distance recreational drives (from a very specific perspective)- I like driving 250-300 miles in a day and then parking at an RV spot for the night instead of a hotel room. I can run the heat and AC all night as well as have a “full tank” ready to go.

Loughla• 7 months ago

I would've loved to get a lightning when we replaced the farm truck this year. If would've been great to be able to charge it while our solar array was pumping out power. But the price on those things is eye wateringly high. We got a gas f150 for about half the price of the lightning. I'm not sure who they were trying to sell those to, to be honest.

dyauspitr6• 7 months ago

I got my extended range for $51,000

happyopossum3• 7 months ago

Most campgrounds I’ve seen here (Northern California) explicitly say you can’t charge your EV in RV spots.

dyauspitr6• 7 months ago

Ah, maybe they’re catching on then. I haven’t run across one yet.

xoa3• 7 months ago

I've been in the market for an electric truck for a solid 5 years now to replace my aging Nissan Frontier. There has yet to be anything attractive at all that has made it into production at any price I've been able to find. Everything seems to be a gas truck with some electric stuff shoehorned in not taking advantage of the new design opportunities at all, and generally with a little 4' bed instead of 6.5 or 8 that I need. So far the best design I've seen was from the startup Canoo [0, 1], but as is unsurprisingly typically the case with a car startup (a really high capex challenging area) they have since gone bankrupt. The Cybertruck at announcement looked sorta promising, with a decent sized bed (6.5 at the time), decent top range (500 miles), and cab moved forward for better visibility with no engine in the way. And in principle there are some really good fully offline "cyber" sorts of features that an ambitious company could do, like making liberal use of modern screens to enable "look through your hood" and better all around awareness, built-in FLIR for enhanced animal detection at night, etc. A self-parking feature that was really solid would be good too, zero general public road self-driving needed for that to be handy. But of course the Cybertruck ended up downgrading in every respect, having mediocre build quality, being heavily delayed, full of Tesla spyware and stupid shit, and in general being made by a vehicle & power company that oddly doesn't actually seem interested in vehicles or power anymore.

It's frustrating seeing all the potential and then having to wait and wait for somebody to finally execute. Same as with PDAs/smartphones until Apple finally shook things up or countless other examples throughout tech history. Maybe it'll be China who actually does it this time around, and a small silver lining might be that could also go along with some actual anti-feudalism and pro-privacy laws in the US if we're very lucky :\.

----

0: https://www.greencars.com/expert-insights/all-electric-all-a...

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzjqfQdj3sM

ChrisMarshallNY2• 7 months ago

I have heard great things about the Rivian trucks. They seem to have rabidly loyal customers, like the Teslas.

psunavy032• 7 months ago

For $70-100K, I'd hope so.

hnburnsy7• 7 months ago

I have heard great things about the Rivian trucks. They seem to have rabidly loyal customers, like the Teslas

Dead last...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/cars/research/2025/10/24/cons...

And have you seen the stories about fender benders?

https://www.thedrive.com/news/rivian-r1t-fender-bender-turns...

https://axleaddict.com/news/a-small-rivian-r1t-dent-just-cos...

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/7-months-later-an...

https://insideevs.com/features/669752/rich-rebuilds-rivian-r...

cpwright• 7 months ago

The bed is only 4.5' long. The 5.5' short bed available on an F150 Lightning is too short for me, the ICE F150 with a 6.5' bed at least lets you have flat sheet goods with the tail gate down.

cogman105• 7 months ago

Yeah, there's really no reason why something like the Isuzu Elf couldn't be electrified for cheap.

Car manufacturers wanting to make EVs premium products is what I think hurts them the most. That along with tariffs keeping the price of Chinese batteries much higher then they should be.

johanvts3• 7 months ago

Why do you need a truck? Serious question, in europe professionals have a van, like the Ford e-transit, and if you just need to haul some stuff from your summerhouse sometimes you hitch a trailer to your car. Why do you need a truck? Couldn’t you buy an electric van instead?

cogman105• 7 months ago

Couldn’t you buy an electric van instead

Not sold (really) in the US. There's the VW electric van but that's more of a gimmick than anything else.

In the US, there's also just a pretty big infrastructure around tooling trucks for professional work. Not that that doesn't exist for vans in the US, it's just somewhat more common to see trucks having full toolsets on the side for quick access with a decent sized bed. The F350 is a major workhorse for that sort of thing.

xoa3• 7 months ago

I live in rural northern New England, and as well on-road I have plenty of either off road or unmaintained road usage year round, and a number of loads in those conditions that exceed the width of the vehicle (so wouldn't be public road legal). Also equipment and loads that exceed the height of the vehicle (which is road legal if properly secured). In principle a van with sufficient towing capacity and off road capability could use a trailer of some kind for those roles, I have nothing against vans per se, but since I don't need extra "interior space" the bonuses of vans don't help much vs the reduced flexibility and extra complications. I do keep my eye on them too because the line between "truck" and "van" can be fuzzy and if something sorta convertible or with some innovative ways to straddle the sufficient for my purposes came along I'd certainly consider it, but it hasn't been the case yet and the truck form factor is just really handy for making do with a surprise need on the spot far from anything with sufficient straps and bungie cords, without needing any other equipment.

It'd be nice if it could be a reasonable price too and not include a lot of the bling, though I'm perfectly aware a huge percentage of the truck buying audience cares about that a great deal vs having their truck all beat up and just wanting it to go forwards/backwards/left/right on demand reliably with a bunch of random stuff every day. But it'd be good to see anything at all that tried to work with the advantages of electric vs the limitations and both give a good truck experience and improve the experience for others that share the land, like with greatly enhanced visibility and better shapes that enhance safety for pedestrians. Don't need a ginormous engine to have very good torque with electric. I'm hopeful somebody will get there eventually but I guess the path has proven more winding then I'd once thought it'd be, I'd expected the iteration to be going pretty hard and fast by now (in America/EU I mean, it does seem to be moving real quick now in China).

Anyway, hope that gives some answer to your question. Just one solitary data point, I don't mean to do any extrapolation from this to the wider market, but I do actually use my truck pretty hard for truck things. We have compact efficient cars as well though for long distance travel and the like, my truck at least will spend 99% of its time within a 150 mile radius for work or any other use.

brandonmenc3• 7 months ago

Why do you need a truck?

To haul dirt. To haul junk out to the dump. Etc.

Do people load their Transits with piles of dirt and mulch? I doubt it.

I live in the US and have a small house in the city, and I haul stuff like this all the time.

Yes, you can rent a pickup truck as needed from U-Haul, but that gets old real quick.

Yes, I would love it if there was a nice small or mid-sized truck with an extended bed available, because most trucks are overkill for my use case.

But this idea that no normal person needs a pickup truck a dozen times a year is just weird.

Qworg• 7 months ago

Given what you need, you should look at a Telo.

https://www.telotrucks.com/

Not launched yet though.

brandonmenc3• 7 months ago

All of these are "not launched yet."

I thought the Slate looked interesting. Then the price started creeping up.

I'll just buy a Ford Ranger or Maverick instead.

hnburnsy7• 7 months ago

From Ford...

Ford Follows Customers to Drive Profitable Growth; Reinvests in Trucks, Hybrids, Affordable EVs, Battery Storage; Takes EV-Related Charges

https://www.fromtheroad.ford.com/us/en/articles/2025/ford-re...

As part of this plan, Ford’s next-generation F-150 Lightning will shift to an extended-range electric vehicle (EREV) architecture and be assembled at the Rouge Electric Vehicle Center in Dearborn, Michigan. Production of the current generation F-150 Lightning has concluded as Ford redeploys employees to Dearborn Truck Plant to support a third crew for F-150 gas and hybrid truck production as a result of the Novelis fires.
The F-150 Lightning is a groundbreaking product that demonstrated an electric pickup can still be a great F-Series,” said Doug Field, Ford’s chief EV, digital and design officer. “Our next-generation Lightning EREV is every bit as revolutionary. It keeps everything customers love — 100% electric power delivery, sub-5-second acceleration — and adds an estimated 700+ mile range and tows like a locomotive. It will be an incredibly versatile tool delivered in a capital-efficient way.

kerblang• 7 months ago

Okay are we just saying they just discontinued one electric F150 in favor of another? Meh.

Edit: Oh, an EREV is fancy way to say "hybrid" ok

ASalazarMX• 7 months ago

I get that a hybrid is attractive because of the flexibility, but still the change is a strange decision. EVs are simpler to maintain than ICEs, but a hybrid is more complex, it adds the possible EV problems atop possible ICE problems.

Maybe keep the trucks as much they are now, just the essential changes to replace the engine? There's plenty of space on those huge trucks.

bdcs3• 7 months ago

Oh, an EREV is fancy way to say "hybrid" ok

Kind of. EREVs are what locomotives have been doing for a century (and to a lesser extent barges), which is called diesel-electric in that field. I agree the terminology is lacking, but EREVs are quite compelling (and their high market share in China supports consumer demand).

Hybrid: * ICE must run during regular operation (except for ~very short distances at ~very slow speeds) -- this increases operational costs (oil changes, economy, engine designed for torque and wide RPM range). * Complex drivetrain with wheels moved by electric motors and ICE, axles, etc. * Generally 10-40 miles of EV range

EREV: * Basically an EV with a short range, and whenever you want to charge the battery on the go (or use the waste heat from the ICE) it can use an efficient (Atkinson cycle) engine to do so. (Though american EREVs have used poorly suited engines for parts availability and enormous towing numbers) * Generally 50-200 miles of EV range * Think "EV for daily commute; ICE for road trips (and heating)"

IMO EREVs would've been a better development path than hybrids or pure EVs.[0] Immediately lower TCO in various interest rate environments via highly-flexible battery sizes, no cold or range anxiety issues, technically simple drive train and BTMS.

[0] I mean the Prius made a lot of technical strides given the battery technology/costs and familiarity the industry had with ICE at time. Tesla went full EV which is a very optimistic approach, and works well enough if you stick around the charging network, but the batteries are still expensive and heavy compared to a small ICE + tank.

SkyPuncher2• 7 months ago

The difference is what is actually powering the wheel. Hybrid is still primarily ICE. EREV is electric motors (with the ICE just charging the batteries).

I literally couldn’t think of a better truck than an EREV. Give me an ICE engine that can haul my trailer into the boondocks knowing I just need a gas station nearby, but can power my trailer off the battery.

hcurtiss5• 7 months ago

I’m actually pretty stoked about this pivot. All the advantages of an EV with gas and go optionality. Will be an awesome pickup.

hnburnsy7• 7 months ago

Ford expects to record about $19.5 billion in special items with the majority in the fourth quarter.

It is believed that this is the largest impairment ever from a company.

bpt33• 7 months ago

It's believed by whom?

I think AOL Time Warner still has the record at over $50 billion, unless you're talking about some specific form of impairment.

hnburnsy7• 7 months ago

CNBC

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

It's such an absurd number that I strongly suspect Ford is taking this opportunity to play some accounting games.

If it is a real number, then I am darkly amused at how much money they could lose and still only make three EVs.

missedthecue2• 7 months ago

In addition to the AOL mentioned elsewhere -

1. GE took a $22B impairment in 2018.

2. Shell took a $22B write down in 2020.

3. ConocoPhillips incurred a $34B impairment in 2009.

LUmBULtERA3• 7 months ago

I wish if this U.S. administration and U.S. carmakers don't care to promote EVs, that they'd at least let in the Chinese manufacturers that are interested in them.

lefstathiou• 7 months ago

I think the issue is that the administration is in an adversarial relationship with China. Risky to allow a foreign power have a kill switch on critical infrastructure.

bflesch2• 7 months ago

Just to clarify: We accept the security risk of kill switches in networking equipment, smartphones, laptops, servers, clouds, processors, bluetooth firmware and nvidia driver blobs, but we draw the line at civillian cars?

And in contrast to the listed items above, for civillian cars you can choose from dozens of countries who produce them. And if you cannot accept security risk of owning a "kill switch" car then you can still go back to gasoline or diesel.

I feel it's crazy to collectively accept security risks in vital electric equipment but suddenly cars are the one product that becomes a political issue. An unlike cars there are very limited alternatives with electrical equipment.

epolanski4• 7 months ago

Cars are not critical infrastructure, also, the idea that China would turn off their EVs or starting to use them as weapons from the other side of the world is borderline absurd.

Occam's razor suggests that the simplest solution is the most probable: they are scared of the competition, because they know that if those cars enter the market they will dominate it.

dalyons15• 7 months ago

The issue is that the administration is in an adversarial relationship with “woke”. That EVs and renewable energy somehow fall into this category is one of the dumbest parts of this timeline.

delecti2• 7 months ago

They view EVs as a moral threat. Can't get cognitive dissonance about your neighbor's dope new EV with perks your new ICE doesn't have, if your neighbor can't get EVs either. Loads of examples of "this is worse, so we're going to make it worse, so we're sure that it is worse".

wagwang• 7 months ago

I wish my ev has dope perks... too bad California is dead set on making EV charging more expensive then gas lol.

PaulDavisThe1st3• 7 months ago

They also view the Chinese as a moral threat. They'd rather set the country on fire than cede the territory that small Chinese EVs could take (which, given current American consumer preferences, would likely be rather small.

hajile• 7 months ago

There have been many demonstrations that F150, cybertruck, and others have short ranges when loaded and even shorter ranges when towing (I saw sub 40 miles on a full charge claimed by some people).

If you use your truck as a truck, that’s simply not feasible. If you just use it as expensive transportation, you probably still try to convince yourself by thinking about how you might use it as a truck sometimes and won’t buy an electric truck either.

There’s not much of a market, so leaving makes sense.

amarant2• 7 months ago

I saw sub 40 miles on a full charge claimed by some people

I've seen some people claim the earth is flat, too! That 40 miles figure had 0 connection to reality

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

sub 40 miles on a full charge claimed by some people

See, that's what you get for believing whatever you read on the internet that confirms what you already wanted to believe.

Back in reality, towing does demolish the range, you end up around 1.0 to 1.2 miles per kWh if you put a travel trailer behind a Lightning. Normal 70-75 mph driving is about 2.0 miles/kWh. Around town, depending on your habits, it's 3.5-4 mi/kWh. The battery is 131 kWh. So range can very quite a lot based on your current activity, but someone who told you sub-40 miles was jerking your chain (or had their own motivation for lying).

bean469• 7 months ago

There’s not much of a market, so leaving makes sense.

Let's be honest, most people who have trucks don't use them for work and towing

tooltalk6• 7 months ago

> they'd at least let in the Chinese manufacturers that are interested in them.

China's anti-market tactics in EV/battery supply-chain past 15 years haven't exactly helped promote EVs outside China -- they are now countervailed not only in the US, but also the EU, Canada, Turkiye; even in China-friendly nations, such as Brazil and Russia now are imposing restrictions on Chinese EV imports. Not very realistic.

Dylan168077• 7 months ago

What anti-market tactics? My understanding is they poured money over the whole market in a way that helped it grow faster, but didn't pick winners and doesn't subsidize the current pricing.

exabrial2• 7 months ago

I expected the "T word" to come out in the article, however this fails to address any of the practical reasons it isn't a good replacement for the value-engineered F-150:

* The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive

* They're difficult to repair. A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired; these things are designed like iPhones to be disposable.

* Parts availability is scarce, contrasted with a regular F-150 (even junkyards are full of spare parts, that aren't software constrained)

* They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla

* They're bloated with parts that don't need to exist (excessive exterior accent lighting, badges, over-complicated blinkers)

Oddly enough, single-charge range issues are pretty much non-existent (for non-towing applications).

bink4• 7 months ago

The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive

They definitely aimed for the luxury market, like Rivian. Who knows how successful they would've been if they aimed for mid-range like Scout. That's the market they claimed to be entering when they started taking reservations. They also could've offered a fleet ready version without the luxury features, but must've decided not to.

They're difficult to repair

How so? They are far simpler to maintain than a normal F-150. They're new so they do have parts issues for the electronic components, I'm sure, but I think that's a fair trade-off. In any case, I don't think offering a hybrid version makes the vehicles easier to maintain or repair. If anything it's the opposite.

Parts availability is scarce, contrasted with a regular F-150 (even junkyards are full of spare parts, that aren't software constrained)

I thought one of the advantages of the F-150 was that most parts were shared with the standard F-150? The battery and motors, maybe not.

tracker110• 7 months ago

Significant portions of the body and interior were not shared with general F-150 models... At least those parts most likely to be damaged in minor accidents... imagine having your work truck in the shop for 2-3 months for want of a corner light fixture.

shmoe2• 7 months ago

They also could've offered a fleet ready version without the luxury features, but must've decided not to.

They did offer a fleet version.. the "Pro".

01HNNWZ0MV43FF• 7 months ago

single-charge range issues are pretty much non-existent (for non-towing applications).

Readers might enjoy this, though I can't find the conclusions section at a glance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmKf8smvGsA

"The Truth about Electric Towing" - The video author says that weight doesn't make much difference, but aerodynamics does. Towing a big flat piece of plywood that weighs 50 pounds but catches the wind is much worse for your range (or MPG) than towing an entire second truck, if the towed truck is aerodynamic.

rascul2• 7 months ago

He's only comparing highway driving. As he notes, city driving (or really anything with a lot of accelerating) will see the impact of weight on fuel consumption. Seems like regen brakes can help mitigate that for electric vehicles.

Side note, if he set the parking brake when getting loaded then the second tailgate denting might not have happened. It'll also help save the transmission.

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

Yes, Ford has done plenty of tests as have regular folks, loading the bed to the weight limit of the truck doesn't have much impact at all on range. It's 99% about the aero.

tracker110• 7 months ago

I think the bigger issue is parts availability over the repairability issue... from what I understand, these have been quite reliable but parts for Ford's EVs have been backordered as much as months, where having a "work truck" down for months is an intolerable position.

The cost is also kind of crazy between inflated factory and dealer pricing as much as $20k over sticker price. Yeah, there was some early demand, but over-charging really cooled that and the demand overall.

I'm with you on some of the interior features, they're cool, but the overall inflated price is just too much. On the flip side, the Chevy "Work Truck" is kinda too far the other direction imo.

Similar on the more complex exterior, though I actually like it, it's not practical for its' prescibed purpose. If Ford could create a stripped down EV equivalent to Chevy's "Work Truck" at even 50% higher cost, I think it would do very well. They're very good for in-city use in terms of range on a charge, it's definitely good enough for most general tradecraft use, but the bloat and pricing really drag it down. Much like most cars in general these days.

Pretty much the only interesting new car I've seen this year was the Hundai Palasade, which IMO was just a good value for what it is. Kind of disappointing to see Nissan drop the Titan line. While I'd prefer to buy American brands, the fact that is that I don't think they deliver on overall value or reliability as well as competing brands. And it gets muddied further with foreign brands with US assembly and American brands now owned or otherwise operated or significantly built outside the US.

omnimus5• 7 months ago

I mean the biggest issue is that “trucks” like F-150 are actually used because of US tax system that exempts such massive vehicles from emmision taxes because they are work trucks. They are pretty ineffective work vehicles but some people just love them as a symbol.

That symbolism goes completely against electric/green vehicles. In other words - people who buy F-150 would never buy electric vehicle and people who are looking for electric truck for work wouldn't buy F-150.

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

parts for Ford's EVs have been backordered

The part with the worst availability is the godforsaken shifter, which happens to be shared with the ICE F150s.

nospice• 7 months ago

The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive

So are RAM trucks and I don't think they're hurting for customers.

I think there are two fundamental issues. One is that pickups are a weirdly-politicized lifestyle choice in the US - i.e., if you're progressive, you're supposed to hate them and see them as the symbol of the gun-totting macho redneck culture, and if you're conservative, you're supposed to love them because they're gas-guzzling freedom machines that "own the libs". An electric pickup straddles these political choices in a hard-to-market way.

The other problem is that electric pickups don't really solve any pressing problem for the buyer. They're more expensive up front, more expensive to keep running (unless you also invest a lot of $$$ into solar), and harder to repair, but they don't boast better specs... well, except for acceleration, which isn't a huge selling point for trucks.

roadside_picnic3• 7 months ago

One is that pickups are a weirdly-politicized lifestyle choice in the US

Based on my personal experience traveling, there's a more practical reason for the political divide.

I spend a good portion of my life in rural parts of the US these days, where most of the residents are pretty conservative. But these are also parts of the country where I get nervous when I'm on 1/4 tank of gas. If you're routinely out in places where the nearest gas station might be > 50 miles away, you also see a dip in e-vehicles for very practical reasons.

When I'm at home in a city, it makes perfect sense to own an e-vehicle: typically I'm only driving a few miles a day, and the car spends most of it's time at my house or in a parking garage. When I'm out on business, and driving across hundreds of miles of barely inhabited land, I cannot imagine the stress of having an electric truck. It's not just about being 50 miles from a gas station, it's about the time it takes to charge on top of that.

In rural parts of the country, especially when you're out working, you can easily be putting on mileage combined with being far enough away from a charger that it just doesn't make sense to have an e-vehicle.

jdeibele• 7 months ago

"More expensive to keep running" might depend on where you live. My wife and I both have EVs and we drive about 2000 miles/month. At just over $.06/kWh our EV charger tells us that we pay about $30/month for "fuel".

The first tire rotation on my car was free, and the next two were about $60 total. The first tire rotation on my wife's car was free. We're both going to need another rotation in a couple of months. Other that that, the original wipers on my car were squeaky and I replaced them for about $40. Oh! And I replaced the cabin air filters myself at the 7500-mile service intervals.

When we lived in a much bigger city, there were time-of-day rates and assistance with the cost of putting in a charger offered by the local for-profit utility. The kWh rate was just over 3X what we're paying now and even that is cheap compared to some regions.

Insurance doesn't seem cheap but we moved from Farmers to Amica and there are a bunch of discounts for having cars with lane departure warning, collision avoidance, etc.

I expect to replace the tires at 40,000 - 50,000 miles based on what other people report they get with their original tires. I do get sad little postcards from the dealer about having our cars serviced because there's no oil changes, the brakes should last forever because of regenerative braking, there's not a catalytic converter to steal, etc.

ghaff13• 7 months ago

I'm guessing you're often either towing or you're doing a bunch of shortish drives for construction, etc. purposes--neither of which are a great match for electric.

jandrewrogers8• 7 months ago

The limited range and inability to refuel quickly and easily in the middle of nowhere remains a critical deficiency for EV trucks in many parts of the US. Range is something you have to be conscious of even with ICE trucks in some areas even though they have better and more reliable range. There are places where I'd start thinking about fuel once I hit half a tank.

Getting caught out in the middle of nowhere with a dead EV because conditions beyond your control changed the range requirements is a nightmare scenario. ICE trucks do much better in these situations.

sroerick17• 7 months ago

I live in Truck Country, Wyoming

If you need a truck for work, you're probably going to be towing in it. Now, some of those guys who are hauling are gonna need a 250 or a 350, but a lot of them will do just fine with the 150.

Even if your job isn't hauling, per se, if you work on job sites you wanna be able to haul stuff. Imagine if you showed up to your new Tech Lead job with an 8 year old Chromebook. You'd look a little bit silly.

In addition, it's 2 hours to the nearest big city. So as a practical matter, you're adding an hour to your trip every time you go into town. I like Teslas a lot, but gave you ever been on a road trip in one? It's pretty brutal.

Plus, I feel like, aesthetically, there is a weird block. I would have no problem dumping a load of sheetrock trash in the bed of a new gas truck. For a brand new electric truck? It kind of feels wrong, don't you think? Maybe that is just me being a Luddite, but I really don't have a sense of an electric car as a tool, the way a good truck is.

I think EVs are great as a recreational car, or a useful commuter in the city. I've never seen a Rivian doing blue collar anything.

I drive a Camry btw

tayo42• 7 months ago

Everyone like Tacomas though

JumpCrisscross5• 7 months ago

They're difficult to repair. A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired; these things are designed like iPhones to be disposable

Is this due to the parts problem?

Teever2• 7 months ago

Honestly sounds more like a regulation problem to me.

So many companies will not prioritize serviceability unless mandated by law.

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

It's due to ignorance. The Lightning is an F150 with a battery pack and motors instead of an engine and gas tank. It shares a -lot- with the 'regular' F150. It's just about the least complicated EV you can buy, which makes it extra funny to hear someone compare it to an iPhone. Sit inside and you can't tell the difference except for how much quieter and silly fast it is.

stonogo2• 7 months ago

I feel like many of these comparisons are more applicable to an F-150 of twenty years ago. Modern F-150s start at forty grand, are so hard to repair that the CEO of Ford whines about not having enough mechanics willing to get a PhD in Ford Repair, are absolutely software-constrained to the extent they're legally allowed, and have almost as many cockpit gizmos. The primary difference is the flashy bloat, but the majority of F-150s are sold at trim levels that include such things. Even the lowest-trim fleet F-150 these days is basically a luxury minivan with a bed compared to the models of yesteryear.

My guess is that grid operators are offering more money than carbuyers, with the wild popularity of solar and wind.

chasd002• 7 months ago

Yeah the F150 is a strange vehicle. It has a proven reputation as a blue collar workhorse. However, a fully loaded Raptor trim is a 6 figure price tag easy.

nebula88045• 7 months ago

I guess we will find out if many of these things actually matter with the Slate truck. It is in many ways the antithesis of this electric F-150. If that vehicle fails then there are no more excuses, a significant chunk of Americans just don't like electric vehicles and are destined to be laggards.

baby_souffle2• 7 months ago

I might be biased because I hang out in the slate subreddit and have been pretty attentive to The product as a whole since they announced it this spring but I think they're on to something assuming they can figure out how to build out the service and parts network.

The vehicle itself may be a runaway sales success but if there's only or two locations in each major state where you can get it serviced, that runaway success will be extremely short-lived.

In theory the simplicity means that it shouldn't be difficult to partner with any independent shop... No complicated or proprietary software theoretically means that any shop with tools and a lift can do the work.

Time will tell, though. I remain optimistic and eagerly await delivery of my truck.

nozzlegear3• 7 months ago

I love electric vehicles, but I want something that lands somewhere between the DIY-esque Slate and the literally-costs-more-than-I-paid-for-my-house F-150 Lightning. I have a 23 Chevy Bolt EUV which is the sweet spot for me right now, I just wish it had AWD for the winters where I live.

wsc9812• 7 months ago

I'm just a Dutch guy that emigrated to Thailand, but I'd never trade my Toyota Hilux diesel for an electric truck. I don't want to have to rely on electric to be able to drive my car. A hybrid could be ok though.

The nice thing about diesel, in case of emergency is you can have a couple of filled jerrycans around so you can always move if needed. I like the reliability, it feels more anti-fragile, if that makes sense.

I wonder if the Gibraltar company that produces Toyota trucks for UN [0] is going fully electric anytime soon, if ever.

---

[0] https://www.offgridweb.com/transportation/toyota-gibraltar-t...

moduspol2• 7 months ago

The Slate initially looked good to me, but there were three things about it that were not upgradeable that seemed problematic:

* Bed size is fairly small

* Towing capacity is low (Just 1000lbs)

* RWD -> AWD

I liked the idea of buying a barebones truck and customizing it myself, but if it can't tow much, can't carry much, and can't go off-road, it's only really a truck in terms of its shape.

khannn• 7 months ago

* The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive
* They're difficult to repair. A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired; these things are designed like iPhones to be disposable.

Add in the crap tow range and it looks like Ford upmarket, as it's known to do, and failed. Just reading these points makes me think that it was designed to fail.

tshaddox• 7 months ago

Isn't the only EV F-150 the Lightning? The Lightning has always been the sports model, so I can't imagine it ever made sense economically as a work truck.

driverdan• 7 months ago

They reused the name much like they used the Mustang name for their electric SUV. Past Lightnings were single trim level performance trucks. The current Lightning mirrors the regular F150 trim levels but with an electric drivetrain.

kryogen1c2• 7 months ago

This is pretty much dead on. I live in a rural part of the US and there are tons of old, worked-on trucks. The idea that there might be an all-electric f150 hanging out in 40 years is, frankly, laughable.

I know a lot of city kids think trucks are some obnoxious luxury good, but they're basically a functional requirement in most of the (very large) country.

empthought3• 7 months ago

Less than 20% of Americans live in most of the (very large) country. The rest live in cities and suburbs.

tricolon• 7 months ago

The idea that there might be an all-electric f150 hanging out in 40 years is, frankly, laughable.

Why is it laughable? I'm not following your argument.

bsder2• 7 months ago

I know a lot of city kids think trucks are some obnoxious luxury good, but they're basically a functional requirement in most of the (very large) country.

A van is almost always a better choice if you're actually looking at functionality. Shielding from the elements is way more useful than some mythical ground clearance benefit that you will never use.

Sure, a very small number of people go offroad and need that clearance--however, the number is small relative to the number of people who could get away with a van.

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

The idea that there might be an all-electric f150 hanging out in 40 years

I should hope there is. The battery is good for 400-500K miles. The first real maintenance (which is still just flushing the coolant) happens at 200K miles. These trucks will be easier to keep on the road than you think, they're dead simple.

JojoFatsani• 7 months ago

The interior is identical to the gas F-150

slimebot80• 7 months ago

"They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla"

Wow, must be absolute crap if they are poor copies of Tesla, given how plastic and uncomfortable Tesla interior/ux is

dare944• 7 months ago

My thought exactly!

iknowstuff4• 7 months ago

There is no plastic, everything is soft touch or metal and software is best in class

ascorbic9• 7 months ago

Tesla interiors are crap, but the infotainment is better than pretty much everyone else. It's the only thing I miss after getting rid of mine.

homeonthemtn2• 7 months ago

That last point is important though. If you want a truck to be adopted it needs to tow.

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

* The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive

I paid 50K. A comparable powerboost was 10% more expensive.

They're difficult to repair. A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired; these things are designed like iPhones to be disposable

Huh? These share a lot of parts with a regular F150. Just not the motor.

They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla

You mean it has a normal infotainment system like every other F150?

excessive exterior accent lighting, badges, over-complicated blinkers

Are we talking about the same truck? Aside from some trims with the light on the tailgate, I don't know what you're talking about. ICE F150s have the same sorts of lights and badges and as far as I know exactly the same blinkers.

single-charge range issues are pretty much non-existent (for non-towing applications).

Hey, we agree on something after all.

NegativeK• 7 months ago

When they were first released, there was a fleet/commercial only model that was stripped down and roughly $40k. _That_ was the model that I expected to succeed. Presumably the same type of truck my employer bought from dealerships 20 years ago, with the sterile interior.

But that doesn't address any of your other points, and I can't imagine a business owner that has very little incentive to change how they're buying vehicles to even care about the Lightning if they aren't seeing their friends or themselves in the modern minivan that's called a truck today, just electrified.

giantg22• 7 months ago

I wonder if that $40k price was a loss leading tactic. Seems unrealistic for an electric truck to cost basically the same as the ICE version work truck.

giantg22• 7 months ago

Insurance is a higher cost too.

tw04• 7 months ago

*They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla

Having owned both an EV Ford and a Tesla I can say with absolute certainty that the ford runs circles around the Tesla. Outside of having steam games on the screen, Tesla’s infotainment does literally nothing better, and the interface itself feels like an early 2000s Linux gui. Oh, and Ford actually supports carplay and android auto.

Zambyte• 7 months ago

Outside of... having Steam games? What?

nunez• 7 months ago

The interior is more or less the same as the ICE version of the F-150, and there is a lot of parts sharing between them. Probably part of the reason why it didn't have great range. EVs are also much simpler to repair, on average. Definitely not disposable. They sure were expensive, though.

iberator• 7 months ago

LOL. Why would you need a truck if not for towing something?!

tonyedgecombe• 7 months ago

Modern cars are emotional purchases, manufacturers have figured out exactly which buttons to press to manipulate us into buying them.

They are pretty much the only consumer good whose price has outrun inflation over the last fifty years.

ActorNightly12• 7 months ago

Its not about need for a lot of people. Its about having the money to optimize, aspects of their life, which everyone does in different areas.

Trucks have the following advantages

* Can drive most anywhere due to high ground clearance and 4wd. This comes in handy quite a bit. Having 4wd + weight + all terrain or appropriate tires means being able to leave the place during a winter storm versus being snowed in.

* Can carry big things or dirty things. Motorcycles, mountain bikes, furniture, landscaping supplies, and so on, without being limited in where you can go or how fast you can go while towing a trailer like you would with an SUV.

* They are safer for the occupants. Can't control if other people drink and drive. Can control if you survive or not if you get hit by a drunk driver.

jacquesm• 7 months ago

A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired

True but they also break, a lot. Workmanship and materials are poor, things that should be made for the life of the car break well before they should. And not just trim, engine and transmission supports, supension and steering components and so on.

They were good cars. In the 70's or so, and it has been steadily down hill from there, even though the engines themselves have improved considerably the rest of the car has only become more and more fragile.

ActorNightly12• 7 months ago

They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla

Man, Tesla apologists are rewriting reality now.

In no way shape or form is Tesla interior even remotely good.

fragmede5• 7 months ago

I think you've been smelling too many of your car's ICE fumes there, mate. It's true that Tesla interiors aren't lined with old growth redwood trees that can never be replaced, and the seats don't use the finest baby seal leather like you'd find in a custom Bentley, but "even remotely good" is as ridiculous level of Elon hate as Teslafanboyism that thinks Elon Musk is the second coming (he's not). It's a car. The interior is fine. We can quibble if it's high end Honda-level fine or Benz level luxury, but it's not like the seats have an arm that stabs in you the chest at every stop light or something.

0xffff22• 7 months ago

The OP didn't actually imply that Tesla is good, just that Ford is worse.

hnburnsy7• 7 months ago

How much of the aluminum supplier issue played into this?

As Ford Authority recently reported, an aluminum plant in New York, owned and operated by Ford supplier Novelis, recently suffered its third fire since September, making many wonder if the facility was still on track to reach full-scale production by December. Turns out, that is indeed the case, but in the meantime, there's no denying that Ford F-150 production has been impacted - which is also true of several other Blue Oval models.

galkk3• 7 months ago

I think that trucks are in worst position for moving to EV.

Customer base is quite conservative in how the truck should look like. For example,F150 lightning had to look like F150.

While a look of truck (and even ordinary car) is defined by the function - need to have beefy, but somewhat serviceable/accessible engine in the front. There is no need for this in the ev truck like at all. It's all dead space now.

I suspect that proper EV trucks eventually will look like current box-over-engine trucks (similar to kei trucks). Like Super crew truck with standard bed will probably have the same dimensions as current short bed truck, with better turn radius. But it won't look cool, and probably have the same stigma as minivans.

tracker110• 7 months ago

FWIW, plenty of work trucks in lots of Companies are boring Vans or Pickups...

Even so, the issue comes to fit for use, cost (initial, ongoing), repairability and value. The F-150 Lightning only checked the fit for use box, since parts backlogs made it unrepairable for potentially months. The initial cost was okay at initial list price, but the actual price for purchase after dealer gouging and the factory raising prices through the roof was kind of insane... on top of a minor fender bender keeping your truck off the road an excessive amount of time killed a lot of momentum.

SkyPuncher2• 7 months ago

So, one of the main reasons it needs to look like a truck is because it needs to have a structure like a truck to be compatible with basically all of the aftermarket parts.

I want a truck with flat bed rails so I can put a cap on it. It needs to have a proper frame under the bed so it’s not bending with point loads.

I need a bed that’s a separate piece from the cab so they have flex for uneven grades.

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

It's all dead space now.

Yeah, it's one of my favorite spaces in the whole truck. A great big trunk protected from the elements and not part of my passenger compartment. I hope we always have that feature.

amarant2• 7 months ago

The comments in this thread are far more interesting than the article. It really shows why selling EV's in America is difficult, especially in the pickup segment I think. The amount of arguments that are clearly just justifying an opinion held without ever actually considering an alternative is unusual for this forum.

It appears America is not ready for electrical pickups. Maybe other markets will be more eager for them?

philipwhiuk• 7 months ago

America is the pickup market.

Europe doesn't do pickups.

TrevorFSmith• 7 months ago

It's a shame they didn't ship an EV that fit the uses the F-150 serves. The Lightening is a luxury item. The F-150 is a tool, regardless of whether it's ICE or EV. I hope this puts more people in the market for the Slate truck. It won't serve everyone with an ICE F-150 but I suspect a bunch of farm and ranch vehicles that don't do many highway miles could be Slates.

QuiEgo• 7 months ago

Not surprising. For what it cost you could get a Model Y and a gently used gas truck. Running your house off it in a power outage was a super cool idea, but man that price.

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

Huh? My Model 3 cost more than my Lightning. LOL.

Running your house off it in a power outage was a super cool idea

Yes, it is fantastic, can confirm.

theLegionWithin• 7 months ago

good, it was a bad idea anyways. want an ev? just get a Tesla

happyopossum3• 7 months ago

So they’re not killing the lightning, they’re adding a range extender? I guess that’s not gonna get as many clicks, but it hardly seems controversial given market reception of the current lighting (basically everyone who wanted one bought one and then sales tanked).

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

Yes, they're killing the Lightning. They are replacing it with a new Lightning EREV, there will not be a BEV version. It's not just a new option they are bringing to the existing truck.

Dylan168077• 7 months ago

How much are they actually changing though? We could imagine they take literally the same design and stick a generator in the corner. Making that mandatory would not be "killing" the Lightning. At the other end is a total redesign that cuts most of the battery, which would be killing it.

1970-01-017• 7 months ago

The EREV is a BEV. The EV in EREV means it will use a battery for the powertrain. No transmission on the engine.

etempleton• 7 months ago

I remembering thinking it was a curious choice. The demo for consumer F150s often doesn’t even like electric vehicles. On the commercial side the electric version is obviously limited.

sh34r3• 7 months ago

The EV pickup obsession is so bizarre. Even moreso than the gas pickup obsession. The obvious next step was to take their brilliant EV Transit and scale up production. You don’t have to convince truck bros. There’s no cultural hang-ups. No issues with towing. Just make a nice cargo van with 120v hookups for $50k that’s easy to drive in the city and easy to convert into a camper. Could’ve built three vans with the lithium it took to build these obscenities.

And you know, I’m already compromising here, because it really ought to be a wagon instead of a van, if Detroit had any brains left.

Can’t wait until someone figures out how to smuggle those $15k BYDs in from Mexico. The North American car market needs to be disrupted badly. By China, not by some meme stock.

MPSFounder2• 7 months ago

Not a good thing. I think Ford has quality issues, but EVs with 500 miles of range are viable. Most pickup owners do not tow. This was an American foot in a market that the Japanese own

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

Ford's quality is about average. Not great, not terrible. They should have put a bigger battery in the Lightning, like GM does with the Silverado (and gets north of 400 miles of range). Instead, they are giving over the market to GM.

MPSFounder2• 7 months ago

I had terrible experiences with Ford. Silverado EV is also not selling well from what I have seen

molsongolden2• 7 months ago

Pretty surprised here and I think it was really just bad marketing or I guess unsustainable unit economics.

Price out the cheapest F-150 (XL) with a supercrew cab and 4x4 and you are looking at $50k. Trucks are just expensive. The Lightning is expensive but not that much more than any other truck and the Ford incentives + EV credit brought it down quite a bit. The Lightning Flash (extended range) was routinely selling OTD < $60k with 0% financing.

I'd put off buying a pickup for a decade because I couldn't find the right one and the Lightning is awesome. I was skeptical at first due to range concerns but there are chargers in the middle of nowhere in 2025.

I think a lot of the other commenters might change their thoughts if they drove one for a bit.

Edit: I get somewhere around 50mpg (dollar equivalent when charging at home) in a full-size truck that fits my whole family and our gear + handles better in the snow than any ICE truck + can do plenty of hauling and light towing.

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

The Lightning is expensive but not that much more

Indeed, I paid 50K for mine. The powerboost F150 I had been shopping for was a good bit more expensive.

sroerick17• 7 months ago

I think the Lightning is pretty cool but there's about 5 vehicle classes I'd want to buy before "electric pickup"

molsongolden2• 7 months ago

It could definitely be a niche thing with me squarely in the niche. It was my top pick for our mix of activities in the mountain west.

skullone2• 7 months ago

This is a shame. Coworker got a Lightning and he loves it. He doesn't tow with it but he does field work for fiber optic stuff, usually back home every day. Runs his computers, tools, ventilation for going down manholes, he even powered a sump pump from it, without needing to haul a generator. The hybrid truck can now do the same, but it's a really nice truck

jeffbee4• 7 months ago

The plain old ICE F-150 has had power outlets as an option package for more than ten years, i.e. 7 years before the Lightning even existed.

skullone2• 7 months ago

The lightning and power boost can do up to 50amps though, the old trucks had to be running and you had to have a second or hight output alternator added. Having the battery/hybrid with their nice inverters was nice

moneycantbuy• 7 months ago

Electricity seems as expensive as gasoline in California, especially considering the cost of installing a charger. Also relying on fascist elon's network is a no go.

homeonthemtn2• 7 months ago

These trucks were a boondoggle to begin with

rsync2• 7 months ago

We don't want your electric car ... we want your car, but electric.

We want an electric F150 or an electric Suburban or v90 wagon or whatever.

But instead we get e-initiative i-mobiles. We get TRON-cars. We get iModels.

There is a reason for this:

The incumbent auto makers understand fully that the ICE version of whatever model they electrify will suffer enormously.

They believe that they can somehow retain all of the sales of the existing ICE model while adding growth sales of a different electric model.

And, of course, they are wrong: because nobody wants an "electric F150". They just want an F150. But electric.

godelski5• 7 months ago

I really miss all the short trucks.

For a long time I had a F150 supercab (made in the 90's) and while it was a great truck it was just excessive for 99% of what I used the vehicle for. That includes the vast majority of times I used it to haul and tow! I always envied my friend's smaller truck. Over a decade I think my truck was the better vehicle in only a handful of situations. (Far better to rent one for the day at that point)

I absolutely hate all the new trucks. That supercab was too large and trucks today feel bigger. Especially the front huge grill (which is also incredibly dangerous). That truck I had was already hard to drive. I loved having a truck but parking is an absolute nightmare, especially in cities where lanes and spaces are not only shorter but narrower. All these big trucks are even harder to drive but people love them because they feel safer (in a perverted and most American arms race imaginable)

But I do like things like power outlets in the bed. I don't give a shit about the infotainment system, but the sockets in the bed is actually helpful. I'd have used that a much larger portion of the time than I used the actual size of my truck. Just being able to plug in a drill (or charge one) is really helpful to more /general/ "truck activities". Not to mention all the things like camping or other things where you take a vehicle like that. But even in those situations you don't need a huge vehicle 99% of the time.

Side note:

I now drive a small compact sedan and am absolutely pissed by how many people drive with their high beams on and are putting in projector bulbs and not properly aiming them. I'm very close to installing a mirror to reflect peoples highbeams back into their own car. Blinding me may increase your visibility, but it also decreases both of our safety. Your brighter lights make you feel safer, but they make you less.

0_____0• 7 months ago

Retro reflective material will do the trick. Try a retroreflective hi-viz vest on the headrest.

shawn_w3• 7 months ago

I really miss all the short trucks

I hope the Telo pans out (and comes down in price to where I can afford one). Looks funny but it's such an obvious idea.

https://www.telotrucks.com/

MobiusHorizons2• 7 months ago

I don't actually think people are driving around with high beams on. Modern LED headlights are just brighter, and cars are higher up than they used to be, meaning older lower cars, especially sedans are just in the path of regular beams. I actually yelled at someone once to turn off their high beams because I was so convinced that's what it was. turns out, they just drive a tesla, which just have blinding lights. I guess there are also probably people with high beams, but most of the ones that are terrible aren't high beams, they are just modern.

deckar01• 7 months ago

I preordered a lightning and they never offered to sell me one for under $80k…

pixl97• 7 months ago

Maybe one of these days Edison out of Canada will get hybrid generator conversion kits out.

EdwardDiego3• 7 months ago

I'd love an off-road capable electric 4WD (because think about how amazing having computer controlled precision torque applied to wheels individually would be for getting out of a tricky situation).

Especially if you could buy some kind of field charging kit - maybe something you could power off a wood fire or flexible solar panels that you could stow. I imagine that's not realistic at the moment, but a boy can dream.

UniverseHacker6• 7 months ago

Look at the new Scout, they are planning to do everything you mentioned

0xbadcafebee2• 7 months ago

having computer controlled precision torque applied to wheels individually

Fwiw many vehicles already have this. Mechanical torque vectoring via differentials, electronic controlled differentials, and electronic brake-based torque vectoring. The latter is the most common, works pretty well in modern cars

dalyons15• 7 months ago

Isn’t that the rivian R1? Incredibly capable off-road. One of a small number of stock model cars to complete the Rubicon trail

UniverseHacker6• 7 months ago

I owned one of the first VW eGolfs, and it was an excellent car. Just a regular golf with an electric drive.

jeffbee4• 7 months ago

The new Polo EV looks perfect.

dzhiurgis6• 7 months ago

160hp and 0-60 at 10seconds. Yikes. That does sound like a regular golf.

lern_too_spel• 7 months ago

Chevrolet makes these. The Blazer and the Blazer EV look roughly the same. The Equinox and Equinox EV look more different but not completely different. The Silverado and the Silverado EV look completely different, but given those other models, I don't think it's for lack of trying.

Similarly, Volvo's EX cars look almost exactly like their XC counterparts.

rsync2• 7 months ago

"Similarly, Volvo's EX cars look almost exactly like their XC counterparts."

Interesting you should mention ...

Here is the interior of the 2025 XC90:

https://0x.co/AJ5PVP

... and here is the 2025 EX90:

https://0x.co/Z3ZQPF

That's not a mistake and they know exactly what they are doing: they think they can sell the EX90 in addition to the XC90 and the dramatically different UI/UX/styling is an effort to keep the XC money flowing.

If the electric one was just the XC90 ... but electric ... they know they'd barely sell another ICE one again.

themafia3• 7 months ago

The incumbent auto makers understand fully that the ICE version of whatever model they electrify will suffer enormously.

So you're saying they make _less_ profit on the EVs? That seems dubious.

They believe that they can somehow retain all of the sales of the existing ICE model while adding growth sales of a different electric model.

Well.. precisely. Isn't the solution to make the EVs more profitable than the ICEs? Meanwhile Toyota's out here killing it in Hybrids.

chris_va• 7 months ago

Well, instead of cannibalizing ICE sales, why not have your cake and eat it to?

- Ford & Marie Antoinette

tokioyoyo• 7 months ago

When your entire supply chain is optimized in ICE vehicles, it’s a tough sell to re-org everything for EVs. And when you try to half-ass it, it doesn’t pan out well, and you end up in this situation.

hcurtiss5• 7 months ago

Isn’t it well known that they’ve lost money for every Lightning they’ve sold? Whereas the ICE F-150 is one of their most profitable sales?

WorldMaker11• 7 months ago

Dealers certainly make less profit on EVs. The Dealer model was built around regular, required maintenance schedules as profit centers. EVs have far fewer moving parts and fluids with regular maintenance schedules.

Dealers are incentivized to sell more ICE than EVs for the good of their own profits. Ford and GM unfortunately can't cannibalize their relationship with dealers under current American regulations and so will feel a lot of pressure to somehow keep EVs "luxury" and low volume/high margin deals for the dealers so they feel less bad about the loss of maintenance profits.

At one point Ford was teasing building their EV division as a mini-startup with direct-to-consumer sales and no pressure to meet dealer needs/demands, because that would be the only true way to compete with Tesla and Rivian and others. That probably would have been the best interest for Ford EVs, but obviously just floating those rumors was enough to stop it by the number of dealers that are also shareholders in Ford. (A problem for Ford all the way back to Ford v. Dodge Brothers.)

pembrook• 7 months ago

While this sounds clever, it just isn't true. The electric F150 looks and feels virtually identical to the non-electric one.

It's not some evil big business conspiracy. It's just that the F150 buyer tends to travel longer distances for work/play over traditional car buyers (more on the edge of suburban/rural, less urban), hence the range anxiety problem with all-electric. Couple that with higher upfront costs, lower resale values, and cheap fuel in the US, it's pretty obvious why the market would prefer a hybrid or ICE F150.

vel0city23• 7 months ago

What particularly was overly "electric F-150" versus "F-150 but electric" on the Lightning? When i tested it, and when other reviewers talked about it they generally praised how normal truck like it was compared to even the Rivian R1T.

class3shock5• 7 months ago

The F-150 is in one of the markets I think ev's will take over first (small commercial vehicles) but it just was not the right vehicle to start with. To expensive, even when the tax incentives were still a thing, and Ford suffers from having corrupt dealers taking a large cut on top of that. So you are selling to either the top 5% or bigger businesses.

If you are a top 5% buying this you want it to tow your expensive toy somewhere which ev's suck at currently or you want it to drive to "insert outdoorsy vacation destination", which means long distance in a remote area with few charging stations. So not a great sell.

If you are a bigger business I think this probably makes sense in some cases. You aren't dealing with the maintenance of an ICE, you can keep it "running" inside a building, it can provide on site power, probably has cost benefits in cities where the lack of emissions and noise is helpful. But the expensive really narrows down your customers. Many are also looking for range and towing, which doesn't help, and people that would show up for the ev part probably would be better off with a van.

If they had done a small e-transit, in the $30-35k range and sold it direct for actual msrp they would have had a much better chance at dealing with where we are now (high interest rate and low support for ev's).

kevin_thibedeau2• 7 months ago

90% of F-150s are daily driver grocery-getters. That was the target for the Lightning, not truck stuff.

hypercube332• 7 months ago

Meanwhile Chevy has a 400 mile range, unknown but more than the 100 mile range the lightning has for towing and is a work truck at about 70k or something street price last I saw. Its compelling, where the lightning is not.

bayesnet• 7 months ago

My hunch is that the people who buy an F-150 for groceries are not the people interested in buying EVs. The advantage of an EV truck is solely on cost and maintenance, so the natural market is businesses looking for practical vehicles, not people who buy impractical vehicles that are costly to operate for status reasons.

Then again as I’m typing this I realize that I have a phone with a better processor than most computers on which I … browse hacker news and read email, so go figure.

themafia3• 7 months ago

Which is odd because this is how they mostly marketed it on release:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42BmZ6Rgqkc

Also most people I know who use F-150s in the way you describe also typically have two children or more. It's not as if this was a segment that was particularly hard to pin down.

They just completely wiffed.

fsckboy3• 7 months ago

90% of F-150s are daily driver grocery-getters

it's my impression that electric vehicles are 90% grocery getters, unless the drivers are young in which case it's takeout. what else would you use an electric for, commuting? when you commute, on the way home, you shop.

qingcharles4• 7 months ago

I live in an area that has probably >100% pick-up ownership per adult male. I've noticed that these people will not go to the grocery store on days when the weather is inclement due to the chance of the groceries getting wet. Seems like a bad vehicle for grocery runs.

hirvi74• 7 months ago

"tow your expensive toy somewhere which ev's suck at currently"

Do EVs suck at towing because of battery life? I thought electric engines were often superior to comparable internal combustion engines regarding torque.

lemming• 7 months ago

The instantaneous torque definitely helps, and EVs are often heavier which helps with stability. But if you're towing anything with significant air resistance (e.g. a boat, a caravan, a big trailer) it kills your range. The general rule of thumb is that it will cut your range in half, which depending on your original max range is ok for some use cases, but unacceptable for others.

eucyclos3• 7 months ago

I can't think what the issue would be aside from range. One thing that stood out to me about the cybertruck is that they made huge tradeoffs to make it more aerodynamic. The only reason to do that is to increase maximum driving distance. Put a big blocky trailer behind it and suddenly the battery's maximum distance is competing with a gas tank on a much more even playing field. Regenerative braking would make up for some of that in very hilly terrain, but on level ground it just can't get out to as many of the remote areas people take their trucks to.

I really think the first obvious use case (aside from bugout vehicles) would be something like the early road rangers - driving all over a farm and bringing back crates of produce from muddy fields without getting stuck or needing a lot of maintenance.

wpm• 7 months ago

Aging Wheels did some tests on YouTube and it’s heavily affected by aerodynamics.

pertymcpert• 7 months ago

The reason that towing affects EVs disproportionately more than ICE vehicles is because of the efficiency of EVs. It’s unintuitive but consider that with an ICE car, you have say 30% of the chemical energy of the fuel being converted to useful power. That means that per liter of gasoline burned driving, 700ml is effectively lost to waste heat. A large amount of that energy loss is a fixed cost, that is it doesn’t scale linearly with the power demand from the car.

EVs are 90% efficient at converting their chemical energy to useful work. This is a good thing in general, but it also means that drag and extra losses hurt its range much more. If 90% of the energy goes into useful power, than anything that requires 50% more power is going to almost halve the range. Whereas with an ICE engine, the high fixed losses mean that demanding 50% more power doesn’t increase fuel consumption by 50%. Pair that with the higher energy density of gasoline and you’ve got a bad comparison for EVs.

dzhiurgis6• 7 months ago

Charging infrastructure is what sucks. Yes range goes half, but that isn't much of a problem if you tow once a month and there's tons of stations around. If not, ur screwed.

Charging infrastructure was always the key for EVs and it's still relatively behind.

adrr2• 7 months ago

They should be cheaper than the F150 but Ford can’t figure out how to make batteries cheaply. Evs are a lot less complex, no gas engine, no transmission, no exhaust systems with hundreds of dollars of precious metal in them. It should be cheaper than a gas equivalent.

smackeyacky• 7 months ago

Cheaper? Not sure how. While an ICE engine does have cooling systems and fuelling systems, water pumps and fuel pumps are relatively cheap and simple devices.

An EV generally has a battery cooling system along with regenerative braking.

EVs have roughly the same mechanical things as an ICE vehicle too, HVAC, suspension, brakes, in car entertainment, heated seats. Lighting. An entire 12v subsystem to power all that stuff as well.

A good old ICE car will be cheaper to make than an EV because the powertrain is cheaper when you account for batteries. Even taking into account the gearbox you don’t need in an EV.

al_borland2• 7 months ago

This isn’t a Ford problem, it’s a problem for the whole industry. EVs won’t get cheaper until battery tech evolves.

bluedino• 7 months ago

They're also adding self driving and all kinds of fancy options

hamdingers4• 7 months ago

They're already pretty sparse, the only way to make it cheaper would be to ship it with a smaller battery. That's not an option because Americans are convinced they'll be left stranded if their vehicle isn't capable of driving 300+ miles at a moment's notice.

jen20• 7 months ago

Not to speak to the rest of the topic, but focusing on direct sales:

I'm almost certain Ford would love to sell direct, but the various franchise laws in different states make it next to impossible. On top of this, dealership owners are typically quite powerful in terms of local politics, which makes such laws very difficult to overturn.

For example:

Texas: https://www.txdmv.gov/dealers/licensing/franchise

Florida: https://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Disp...

California: https://www.nmvb.ca.gov/protest/protest_establish_new_fran.h...

NetMageSCW27• 7 months ago

Somehow Tesla has managed okay, Ford could if they weren’t worried about their existing dealer base.

inasio• 7 months ago

My electrician drives an electric F-150, it's impressive how useful it is for him. The frunk carries a big box of tools, there's tons of outlets to charge his power tool batteries, he can even run a small welder

tekno452• 7 months ago

The F-150 is a great power bank that comes with a very useful set of 4 tires and a steering wheel for a truly portable charging experience.

SoftTalker6• 7 months ago

Do they sell them in "work truck" trim? (Bench seat, vinyl upholstery, rubber floor, minimal options)?

jama2112• 7 months ago

That’s pretty cool, and I just checked the prices and it only starts at 11k dearer than the standard f150, which is less than I expected. Interesting.

What’s more insane to me as an Australian is its 50k USD starting price in America, but in Australia it starts at $149k USD as they’re only sold by third parties that do right hand drive conversions (at imo a way too high premium, 100k for that service + shipping???)

fragmede5• 7 months ago

Yeah the frunk is what makes that thing shine. The cybertruck's frunk is pathetic in comparison.

elliotec2• 7 months ago

I have the powerboost hybrid F-150. It does all this, can power a house with the generator, AND I can drive it through the mountain west with zero EV infrastructure at insanely high MPG for a truck. Plopped a Tune camper on the back and couldn’t ask for more.

bigtex• 7 months ago

All those things can be done with the newer gas F150s minus the frunk storage.

kjkjadksj• 7 months ago

Rivians are all over socal. I think there is a lot of demand in certain markets.

nine_k2• 7 months ago

In NYC al the Amazon delivery trucks I see are purpose-built Rivians. And this is the hyper-frugal, penny-pinching Amazon.

jeffbee4• 7 months ago

The Lightning is the 10th-best-selling EV in California and the Rivian R1T is not even in the top 25. Rivian is also one of the handful of brands selling fewer vehicles so far in 2025 compared to 2024.

shawn_w3• 7 months ago

See them all the time around the greater Seattle area. The "certain market" is probably lots of extremely well paying jobs.

ProAm4• 7 months ago

Wait until the R2 comes out for ~50% of the cost of an R1. They are the best EV out in terms of features and comfort and usability.

mattmaroon10• 7 months ago

Yeah I might have thought that too if I didn’t own commercial vehicles. I own a few and the idea of switching to an EV for them is laughable. Go tow stuff for 8 hours one day and ask yourself “if I had to stop for 30 minutes every 90 miles how would I like this day?”

Battery ranges decline by over 50% when towing. The long term health of a battery requires you to keep it within a range of about 60% of the max capacity (ie between 20 and 80). So that’s if anything a generous estimate. You’d increase your labor cost by 25% just charging, not to mention that public charging isn’t any cheaper than fuel. I’m not even factoring in lost job profits or overtime.

The margins the Ford dealer takes are not the issue. The cost of the vehicle itself amortized by the hour is much less than the labor cost of operating it. If I could get any EV truck at the same cost as my diesel, I still wouldn’t. If you’ve got two guys out, that’s $50 burnt every time they charge (at least) and that may be 2+ times a day. Your fuel cost is irrelevant. Five minutes at a gas station and a tank of diesel is still cheaper.

It has some use cases I’m sure (delivery vans since it is one worker, city driving, short range) but most commercial vehicle work is simply not going electric given current battery technology.

lokar4• 7 months ago

Most heavy trucks are sold to people who don’t really need them, but buy them to signal cultural allegiance and get a tax break.

NetMageSCW27• 7 months ago

There is a lot of short range no/limited tow commercial work that could use a BEV truck (e.g. every gardener/lawncare small business) or a BEV panel van.

protocolture• 7 months ago

The electric LDV and GWM utes are meant to be pretty great. I reckon they will take over everywhere else and then come for the US with a US specific model.

asciimov• 7 months ago

Maybe for city truck drivers.

For those that don't drive in town, noting beats gas or diesel.

Companies need to build a stepping stone truck. Dino-powered generator on an electric platform. Get most of the upside to electric performance, while getting the speed gas refilling.

standeven2• 7 months ago

You just described the new Ramcharger.

markdown4• 7 months ago

Companies need to build a stepping stone truck.

The worlds biggest electric car company made the Shark, a plug-in EV hybrid. Sold for US$40k in Australia.

https://bydautomotive.com.au/shark-6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7EnaR_9XGs

foofoo55• 7 months ago

My experience supports nearly all of this. In 2022 I decided to keep my 2019 F-150 gasser instead of getting a Lightning because the Lightning was ridiculously expensive, even though Covid kept the value of my truck close to what I paid for it. I also didn't want all the Lightning's luxury features that tend to fail and highly depreciate over time. We do >12hr drives for work & family through remote BC and I was still willing to try the EV for such trips but didn't see the payback. In hindsight it was a good choice given the actual range experienced by Lightning owners.

rsynnott• 7 months ago

They have one for 34,640 EUR; happy?

https://www.ford.ie/content/dam/guxeu/ie/Documents/Pricelist...

Granted, they don't seem to sell the cheap ones in the US.

(For whatever reason you don't see these around very much, though; Citroen and Mercedes seem to dominate the niche, at least here.)

rjsw• 7 months ago

The Ford one is slightly newer than the equivalent rebranded Stellantis models.

I am considering the Transit e-Courier or the Chicken Tax variant as my next car.

black_puppydog• 7 months ago

Dear god, what about this monstrosity is supposed to be "small"?!

Seriously, people should take a look at how professionals around tye world are managing just fine with anything from a cargo bike via VW caddy to sprinters....

bombcar• 7 months ago

I think a Sprinter is going to be larger than most pickups.

class3shock5• 7 months ago

That's an "american" small, lol.

beAbU• 7 months ago

The F-150 is in one of the markets I think ev's will take over first (small commercial vehicles)

I agree that small commercial vehicles are the right prime target for electrification, but why the pick-up? I would argue that the classic van is a much more sensible small commercial vehicle than a pick-up. As a non-USian, do you mind explaining why the pick-up is so much more popular in this category? The van wins in all tests in my mind, except maybe that it's less manly?

Vinnl• 7 months ago

That's also why a number of cities here have started banning the use of newly-purchased non-electric commercial vehicles. The feasibility-impact ratio makes it an easy first step.

frameworkeGPU• 7 months ago

easier to drive, and better for hauling gross or oddly-shaped loads. Before we started taxing them out of existence, small pickups were also easier to load.

worse for storing tools and supplies. So some service techs here also prefer vans depending on their loadout. but generally it's easier to use a pickup truck for van stuff (eg locking jobsite boxes) than the reverse.

class3shock5• 7 months ago

I talk later on that I think a small ev van would have been a better entry into the market.

That being said I do love pickups, my dream car is probably the Slate if it ever gets made. I won't argue about truck over van on the merits because I think the van wins. Trucks are just cooler in the minds of americans I guess.

pmontra2• 7 months ago

Ford suffers from having corrupt dealers

Do you mean that dealers ask for bribes to customers to deliver cars, or that customers bribe dealers to skip the waiting list, or something like that?

labcomputer4• 7 months ago

In many states in the United States it is illegal to buy a car directly from the manufacturer or from a dealer owned by the manufacturer. In all states it is illegal for a manufacturer with an existing independent dealer network (which is to say, every manufacturer except the EV startups) to sell directly to the customer or to open a new factory-owned dealer.

So companies like Ford can only sell what independent dealers want to sell. You can go to the dealer and ask to buy a car sitting on the lot, and the dealer can just… not sell you the car. For any price. And it is also illegal for the manufacturer to force/coerce the dealer to sell it to you.

Of course the dealer can do softer things also, like talk down the car when you test drive or talk up the benefits of other cars. Or tell you that next year’s model will be much better than this one, so you should wait.

Additionally, most dealers do not actually pay for the car until it is sold to the customer (the manufacturer offers financing to the dealer, called “floor planning”).

Independent dealers do not want to sell EVs because of the perceived loss of service revenue. So they simply offer bad deals on the car that most customers would not take. The cars sit on the dealer’s lot, but that costs the dealer nothing (see above), even though Ford wants to sell an EV and customers want to buy EVs.

hamdingers4• 7 months ago

Yes exactly that. Either outright via "market adjustment fees" or through mandatory addons like $5,000 in paint protection film that's "already applied, so if you don't want it you'll have to wait until we get another one of this model and we're not sure when that will be..."

Then because of the monopolies the sibling comment mentions, you can't go elsewhere.

SmirkingRevenge• 7 months ago

It's tough if you live in a place without great EV charging infrastructure. You end up really having to strategize when/how you charge. If you ever need to make unplanned drives across town or to a neighboring city it can really screw you up. Charging stations are often poorly maintained too and out of order.

EV's still aren't practical for a lot of drivers in such places.

strawhatguy4• 7 months ago

Article says the next F-150 Lightning will be an EREV-style plugin hybrid. Which, if so, makes a lot of sense. EVs are great, but not so much for trucks.

I was always bothered about how cars were either supposed to be all electric or all ICE. Working together is the smart way forward.

xgulfie2• 7 months ago

Chevy Volt my beloved

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

Which wasn't actually an EREV. They wanted it to be, but it was more efficient not to.

m4ck_• 7 months ago

I wonder if it's hybrid electric is super old tech and manufacturers can't have a monopoly on it or something?

Hybrids have been powering heavy industry and locomotives for the past 100 years or so, it seems like a perfect first step towards mass electrification of vehicles. Plus I imagine it'd be possible to swap the engine for more batteries as that tech improves.

strawhatguy4• 7 months ago

Edison Motors up in Canada is interesting, in the truck space.

Diesel EREV semis, and heavy-duty pickup modifications. Sounds like they're running into overregulation issues though.

This is how China gets ahead, because the West is dumb and thinks regulation helps. They've already dominated drones (since it's effectively illegal if not actually illegal in the States to make them), seems the same will happen with EVs.

dalyons15• 7 months ago

Remains to be seen if it’s smart - personally I think erev is going to be obsoleted very quickly by batteries getting better and cheaper. You can already buy 1000v 5min charging EVs in china, as well as semi-solid state batteries. And the batteries get cheaper year on year, relentlessly.

EREVs are a way better idea than the lie of PHEVs, but their time in the market is still limited. I wouldn’t be making that bet as an auto manufacturer , unless I had protectionism to hide behind.

NetMageSCW27• 7 months ago

PHEVs aren’t a lie, but the economics need to be compelling for people to plug in. If my car was a PHEV (it would weigh too much) I would plug it in to save over gas for weekly commutes, but I pay for premium gas.

strawhatguy4• 7 months ago

Every 5 years, there's a better battery in development 5 years hence. So I'm a bit skeptical that just a better battery would exclude hybrids. Any battery improvement would improve PHEV and EREV vehicles also, and they'd retain their advantage over straight EVs in range.

The advantages of these hybrids is a) using multiple fuels - has all of the main 80%-of-trips-local on electric range advantage of EVs, combined with an extended range of gas (and those gas engines run at optimum rpm, so they're more efficient too) and b) easier on the battery supply chain; they don't need as large batteries; batteries have more uses than just EVs, making all such products cheaper, including EREVs

The real disadvantage is the higher complexity, although EREVs do still get rid of the transmission gearing and other driveline components.

And of course, EREVs are probably the only solution for trucks and off-road vehicles. Edison Motors's diesel EREV for full trucks seems way more promising than Tesla's Semi (if Canada could stop over-regulating their startups, that is).

honkycat• 7 months ago

Hicks with overpriced trucks don't want EVs, shocker!

They are a status symbol for middle class workers with no taste

rootusrootus34• 7 months ago

Alternatively, they are the most versatile vehicle on the road. But kids on HN have real trouble seeing outside their tiny bubble.

analog8374• 7 months ago

F150 turned to poo after the 90s. Nonsignificant news. Look elsewhere for your electric truck.

diogenescynic2• 7 months ago

They botched it entirely. If they made it for $40k even if it only got 50 miles of range, they could have sold these. Instead they priced themselves out of the market. It's a clear example of the Innovator's dilemma, but now instead of cannibalizing their own market they'll just let it slip away to Tesla.

NetMageSCW27• 7 months ago

Tesla isn’t taking the market with the Cybertruck, they also are letting it slip away. GM seems poised to take most advantage if they stay the course.

diogenescynic2• 7 months ago

Toyota should make a hybrid plug in single Tacoma. They could own the market if they did that.

hitekker• 7 months ago

I've said this before: if you go to Beijing or any developed city in China, you'll be amazed by their progress on EV's. It's on a scale beyond America, that America is no longer capable of achieving.

Time will tell of their sustainability.

0xbadcafebee2• 7 months ago

This is fine, for three reasons:

1. Electric trucks don't make sense. In the "I drive my truck to pick up groceries" sense, it's fine. But as a work truck, it's not ideal. You lose both payload and towing capacity owing to that huge battery. Gets worse in winter and at elevation. The bigger the truck, the more it weighs, the worse the EV part does (which is why nobody's making an F350/F550 electric). ICE trucks get over twice the range, more payload, more towing. And if you're using it for work, you can't waste part of the day charging it, you need to gas up and go. It's taking most manufacturers a long time to develop more rugged/capable versions of EVs, so stalling to prepare for an eventual better launch kinda had to happen anyway.

2. In theory, plug-in hybrids could be converted to all-electric, but you get way more utility out of a hybrid. The ability to use either fuel source solves a lot of problems. I wonder if we'll eventually maneuver these away from gas towards LPG; they already sell LPG trucks, why not LPG plug-in hybrids?.

3. We simply aren't ready for mass adoption, practically speaking. Apartments are 40% of all homes and there's no way they can plug-in. There's not nearly enough public chargers and jockeying for position is a joke. The software for chargers and route management is still a huge mess. It will take more government investment, which is dead for the next three years. Selling more EVs with no simultaneous infrastructure investment would be a disaster waiting to happen.

pensatoio2• 7 months ago

If a shelf stable fuel like LP could be integrated into an EREV, I think that would be the perfect combo. All the dynamics of an EV with the extended range and easy fuel availability.

I’ve owned a M3P and MY, and I really want a truck, but it needs to be more capable than the electric offerings. An EREV truck would be fantastic.

4fterd4rk• 7 months ago

Electric trucks make perfect sense and are ideal for what most F-150s are actually used for. The problem is that the F-150 is a fashion accessory for low IQ types that cosplay as rancher/cowboy/whatever. They're buying the appearance of being tough. They're insecure. The electric F-150 doesn't make them feel better about their pathetic lives.

unethical_ban2• 7 months ago

You can say they're victims of marketing but your vitriol goes too far. I wonder if you would say the same about any other consumerist excess: a bigger house, a nicer watch, a faster car.

LeoPanthera• 7 months ago

I have not once followed a link to Wired without it saying "You’ve read your last free article."

Is the limit supposed to be zero?

tonymet3• 7 months ago

$20b capital write down means that consumers paid that much more for all vehicles to subsidize redundant and insolvent EV product lines .

Tesla is the only company making money off of these products .

People keep complaining about the AI bubble but we sustained an EV bubble for 15 years without it popping .

missedthecue2• 7 months ago

How did they lose $20B on this? Gigafactory was $10B.

iknowstuff4• 7 months ago

EVs are >30% of the global car market and rapidly rising. There is no bubble. America is a bubble of lagging OEMs.

tonymet3• 7 months ago

that seems off

laweijfmvo• 7 months ago

I’ll never buy a Ford after dealing with a dealership during the pandemic pricing (sold my pre-order to the highest bidder).

xivzgrev• 7 months ago

No one in top comments is mentioning a key point. It was cheap looking.

How the truck looks is important. Outside the bottom end of market, it's a status symbol. I got a tundra TRD earlier this year and I've gotten multiple compliments on it because it's a good looking truck.

The F150 lightning looked cheap. The grill is this crappy plastic. And there was no upgrade feature to make it cooler.

If they had the option to make it look like the Raptor or one of their higher end F150s, it may have sold better.

mitthrowaway2• 7 months ago

It doesn't need a grille at all. There's a trunk in the front.

ryukoposting• 7 months ago

Meh, it just looks like any other truck to me. It even has a sprinkle of the silly "wow very technology!" aesthetic pandering that's typical of EVs. But plenty of strong-selling EVs do that (see: Hyundai).

But you're right! An electric pickup truck is a status symbol, but an F-150 isn't a status symbol. The F-150 brand, and the blue oval itself, is associated with being an appliance. The branding is at odds with the starry-eyed futurism that drives EV sales.

Don't get me wrong, plenty of folks buy F-150s and Rams and Silverados who don't need them. But, those people are cosplaying their imaginary blue-collar grandfathers. An electric car goes against that retrospective way of thinking.

As for folks who actually need a pickup for practical reasons, they don't want a Lightning. Ford doesn't sell it with an 8 foot bed. Every time you get plywood or drywall or whatever, it's gonna hang out the back. Can't wait to see the look on your face when a ladder falls over onto the hood of your $75,000 truck.

xur17• 7 months ago

It even has a sprinkle of the silly "wow very technology!" aesthetic pandering that's typical of EVs.

I've never heard it referred to that way, but you nailed the description.

unethical_ban2• 7 months ago

The Toyota Silverado? The Chevy Tundra?

I can't get over how much Toyota fashioned their trucks after GM. Tacoma is a spitting image of the Colorado.

I'd still buy a Toyota before a GM 10/10.

partiallypro• 7 months ago

I think an electric full sized truck was always a mistake. To me the market is in the Tacoma/Ranger size for an EV truck. It's pretty simple. Those don't need to haul anything, they are smaller, more aerodynamic, can look sportier because they are more compact, etc. The Tacoma even today gets like 20mpg, which is absolutely abysmal for a 4-cylinder, it's so ripe for an electric motor. The obvious obstacle to overcome is longevity, given Tacomas especially are known to last practically forever.

danans• 7 months ago

I still think that if they'd released an electric Ford Maverick sized pickup instead of the monstrosity that is the Lightning, they would have done much better, but everyone had to run after the story Elon was spinning with the Cybertruck, and unsurprisingly, they are similarly unsuccessful.

burnt-resistor• 7 months ago

Detroit will continue creating crappy EVs rather than good one to defend their "whale oil" business by gaslighting people into believing "EVs suck" when they're strategically sabotaging products in this category. Been happening since the EV-1 and the horrific styling of the original Prius. They don't like change and don't care about the long term survival of the species if there's no profit in it.

ycui1986• 7 months ago

Plug-in Hybrid with a small engine for charging purposes probably makes the most sense at the moment, although full electric is sexy, the range anxiety is real.

arunkumars91• 7 months ago

That seems to be the right direction in my opinion.

pytonslange• 7 months ago

Great news! We just started seeing theese dangerous huge ass US trucks on the streets in Norway the last year or so. The non-electric versions were priced out of market due to the emissions they put out.

jillesvangurp• 7 months ago

Lots of speculation in this thread. Not a lot of talk about the international market where Ford has been mostly a no-show with the F-150 lightning. Internationally, Toyota and BYD are starting to dominate the electric truck market. The electric Hilux is launching next year and the BYD Shark is doing well in e.g. Australia and Mexico. That's a range extended vehicle similar to the new F-150 sold at an aggressive price point. There are a few other Chinese vendors getting ready to market their vehicles as well. It's a popular car type across South America, Africa, Australia, etc. And Toyota used to dominate that market. The market clearly exists and it's rapidly electrifying.

Internationally the trend is actually towards battery electric vehicles that are more affordable than their ICE or hybrid equivalents. If such non electric models are available at all. That's becoming true for a growing number of cars in especially the EU, Australian, or Asian markets. The cheapest cars in the EU are electric at this point. There's a growing number of cars priced well below 20K Euro. And not just from China. 2025 saw a few models for which that was true. 2026 will feature a lot more.

How is this possible? Batteries are now cheap. Electric motors were never that expensive. And the rest of the car is what it always was a bunch of wheels, window wipers, and other components. The cheapest car is the simplest car. That's going to be an electric one from 2026 onward.

Why did the F-150 electric flop? It was more expensive than the petrol variant. You have to pay a very steep premium for them. Ford never really figured out how to source cheap batteries. And even at that steep premium they never figured out profitability. It seems they are getting out of battery joint ventures even and reducing investment. They are giving up and ceding the market to others. Just as others are figuring this market out and are proving it is real.

Technically, if they ever wanted to make a cheaper version of this new range extended truck, all they'd have to do is junk the range extender and cram the vehicle full of cheap LFP batteries. As much as they can get away with. But that would require that they figure out how to source/make cheap batteries. Clearly that's not a problem that is solved in the US yet. They might get back to this topic in a few years.

WorldMaker11• 7 months ago

The article points out that apparently Ford's plan for Europe is rebadging Renault's EVs, which sounds like just giving up on Europe in all but (brand) name.

brikym2• 7 months ago

These kind of vehicles, electric or not, should be killed or taxed heavily simply because they are the epitome of hostile individualism. They're designed to be a fist on wheels and it's known that they run people over.

gorgoiler2• 7 months ago

I bought some LiFePo power packs this summer. They are just 1kWh things, the size and mass of a crate of beer but having a power pack with mains voltage output is mind bending. Suddenly you can do all sorts of things you never could do before. It feels as bizarre as it might feel going camping with a magic tap that has permanent running water, or to have a bag of rice that never empties. I set up a tent with a household table lamps. It felt both weird and exciting.

The electric F-150 promised to be 100x and it was very appealing. It would have been a vehicle that was also a mobile untethered power station, and much more capable one than my power pack or even a mains outlet. Presumably with the right connections you could drain the battery at the same rate as the wheel motors. What could you do with a mobile 100+kW electricity supply? Brushless (corded) chainsaw, mobile log splitter, and charge my phone!

It’s a world I’m looking forward to. More utility EVs please.

greenie_beans• 7 months ago

electric chainsaws no fun

gorgoiler2• 7 months ago

If you mean battery powered, then yes, but I was hoping for some hypothetical 50kW device powered by a cable from my equally hypothetical all-electric F-150. That would be fun.

hbarka• 7 months ago

Ford and GM made massive investments in tooling for EV manufacturing and just started production. CEO Farley then meets with the current administration and suddenly Ford is pulling the brakes on those factories, laying off thousands and taking $20B in accounting write-down. Imagine doing that. What pressure was must have been exerted on Farley.

hshdhdhj4444• 7 months ago

Let’s assume that this is the correct decision in terms of the viability of the electric F-150 (I have no reason to believe Ford is wrong here).

The real problem with this decision is that the F-150 is pretty much Ford’s only foray into EVs.

It raises the question of how Ford expects to compete in the EV market, which is a bigger concern given that the world market is showing a clear preference for EVs, especially once they allow the world EV leaders from China to enter their markets.

This further reinforces the Galapagosification of the American auto makers who are getting wiped out pretty much everywhere outside the US where they are competitive thanks to government protectionism.

NetMageSCW27• 7 months ago

The Mach-E is pretty popular.

rattus_rattus• 7 months ago

The Ford Mach-e would like to have a word - it was the first Ford EV. It was available for the first year as a 2021 model, while the Lightning was available as a ‘22. The Mach-e is still available and I think the ‘26 models are already out there.

According to Car and Driver the Mach-e was the 4th most popular EV so far this year (around 42k sold) and the Lightning was the 7th (23k units sold.)

Anecdotally I see a ton of Mach-e on the road where I live, and Lightning too. We got a Mach-e this summer and it has been excellent.

WorldMaker11• 7 months ago

Yeah, per the article Ford seems to have indeed decided that the current state of US politics mean that it can keep kicking the can down on the road on EVs, rebadge Renault's EVs as Ford to not entirely give up on Europe (but, uh, very much giving up on Europe manufacturing in everything but brand name still seems like giving up to me).

Ford presumably isn't going to also give up on the Mach-E, at least not it is not mentioned in this announcement, but yeah this signals a lack of confidence in America competing with the EV market.

(Ford's recent breakup with SK On, splitting custody on plants, presumably dropping the volume of batteries they are capable of producing, presumably is an influencing factor as well on giving up on the electric F-150.)

DiabloD32• 7 months ago

Weird way for Ford to announce they're going out of business.

NetMageSCW27• 7 months ago

You seriously overestimate the impact of BEVs for the next few decades.

DiabloD32• 7 months ago

When (not if) Ford goes under, it's not going to be overnight. I would be surprised if they don't have enough gas in the tank (ha) for another two decades, no matter how bad their decisions are; there's always customers willing to buy their products.

1970-01-017• 7 months ago

But they didn't kill it? Everyone is missing the other side of the coin. It will still exist as a battery electric vehicle with the addition of a generator. You can still plug it in and drive just on battery pack power from the grid.

conorcleary2• 7 months ago

Media does media

NetMageSCW27• 7 months ago

They have nothing to announce on the availability of the EREV version.

hcurtiss5• 7 months ago

I saw that too. If that’s their plan, I’m pretty bullish on Ford. All the advantages of an EV with a range extender. Like the Chevy Volt version of the F-150. I’d be all over that.

WorldMaker11• 7 months ago

From my experience (driving one for more than a decade) an EREV is a step back at this point, and a worst of both worlds. Focusing on EREV models isn't going to keep Ford relevant in competition to Tesla and Rivian, much less most of what is going on in Europe and Asia today.

matty225• 7 months ago

*Ford:* Makes giant, electric pickup truck that you can't purchase for less than $85,000 and your normal, weekend warrior has no need for to make their Home Depot runs.

*Also Ford:* WhERe aRe all tHe cUstOmerS?!

I don't understand what's so hard to understand about selling EVs like hotcakes. Make a reasonably sized vehicle, with a reasonable range, at a reasonable price point. They already have the Maverick. An excellent truck for day-to-day driving and weekend tasks. Make a Maverick, but put an electric motor in it instead of the gas-hybrid engine. Sell it for $10k more than the gas model (~$40k). That truck would sell gangbusters.

Instead they think they are Rivian and can sell trucks at Rivian prices, but they aren't Rivian. They aren't a sexy new EV startup who makes something truly new and bespoke. And who can, as a result, charge bespoke prices. They are Ford. They are a known entity. Dare I say, they are boring. Their strength is in volume, not bespokeness. They need to sell a boring truck with an electric motor at volume.

1970-01-017• 7 months ago

MSRP is a red herring. Their King Ranch sells just fine at $95k. The problem was and is buyers being gun shy about EVs. The EREV takes away all the excuses. As in the only practical reason to buy an ICE F-150 will be noise.

matty225• 7 months ago

If you were gunshy about trying out VR. You'd never even worn a pair before and you wanted to give it a shot. Would you be more willing to spend $300 on a Quest or would you rather spend $3500 on an Apple Vision Pro? Now let's pretend we're in an alternate timeline and the $300 Quest never existed. The only option available to you was the $3500 option. Are you still interested in trying out VR?

MSRP might not be the only factor, but it's pretty damn important. Not a lot of people can "risk" $85,000.

ActorNightly12• 7 months ago

s in the only practical reason to buy an ICE F-150 will be noise.

And the ability to keep the truck at 80 mph without ever worrying about range. Which is why a pure EV truck designed for actual hauling will never work.

ActorNightly12• 7 months ago

That truck would sell gangbusters.

Nope.

Live in Texas, where there are plenty of people with top level F150s, Raptors, 250s, 350s and so on. Ive seen maybe like 5 Lightnings total since they came out, despite them being the same price. Full size trucks is a different market.

Car frame Trucks like Rivian or Maveric make sense because they are trucks for car people that like the idea of a truck. People don't really carry much in those trucks, and don't really drive that much.

With full size trucks, outside the negligible market that buys them for the size factor, people buy them because the utility value goes through the roof. Quite a lot of people who use the trucks end up putting a lot of miles on them, or using them for carrying lots of stuff (and there is a difference between full size truck bed size and even mid size like Tacoma, namely with what you can carry with tailgate up a and also the depth of bed to prevent things from falling out).

EV in fullsize truck doesn't work that well because a) aero drag is insane, so you are limited in how fast you can go for any real range, and b) any extra battery weight takes away from total payload capacity.

So long as XLT is available (which makes up for 33% of the sales) and gas stations are a thing, you are never going to compete with any equivalent EV.

The easiest thing for Ford to do is make a good plug in hybrid. They already have the hybrid F150 (although reliability issues are still there), but the thing can power your house in power outage, and go like 600+ miles on a tank of gas. Just give it a bigger battery and make it plugin, and pair it with the tried and true 3.5 ecoboost, and you have a winning combo, and people will pay $70k for that thing.

matty225• 7 months ago

Ok, well Texas ain't the entire country. The vast majority of the population of this country do not live in the rural Midwest. As of the 2020 census, 80% of the population live in areas considered "urban" and 20% live in areas considered "rural". I'd also hazard a guess that most people who drive trucks, are not people who buy them because they need truck "utility". They drive them because twice a year they need to carry a load of garden dirt and maybe on the weekends they carry tools to their buddy's house. If putting a lot of miles on your truck is what you need it to do, the hybrid Maverick gets ~35-40 mpg, 3-4x what any full sized pickup will get.

EV in fullsize truck doesn't work that well

Yes, you are making my argument for me. Fullsize EV pickup trucks don't work well, so Ford should stop making them...

smeeger2• 7 months ago

edison motors

zcw100• 7 months ago

I've never understood electric pickup trucks. If those fugly wheel covers make a significant difference to your range on a highly aerodynamic sedan how does a pickup truck make any sense?

smeeger2• 7 months ago

they were impossible to buy

Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

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