The case against caffeine

https://zantafakari.substack.com/p/the-case-against-caffeine

by vitabenes • 2 years ago

154 242 2 years ago

zantafakari.substack.com

debt• 2 years ago

If you're going to drink decaf, be sure to drink decaf prepared via the Swiss water method. It has the least additives, healthiest option and tastes pretty good.

pryelluw• 2 years ago

May you share some brands that follow such method ?

syntaxing• 2 years ago

It’s actually hard to find brands that don’t use the water method if you buy “freshly” roasted beans. Unless you go super budget, medium budget beans like Peets, SF bay, etc use water process method.

ydant4• 2 years ago

I'll take this opportunity to plug an instant decaf that recent surprised me (very pleasantly). Our hotel offered this for free in the lobby on a recent trip and I ended up buying some for travel purposes.

https://treelinecoffee.com/collections/on-the-go/products/in...

It's a swiss water method decaf instant that rivals some of the best cafe regular coffees I've had.

At stores/roasters, most will tell you the decaffeination method somewhere on the bag. If they don't it's probably not a brand that cares much about their decaf, so skip it. Make sure you go for as close to roast as possible - decaf goes off a lot quicker than regular coffee.

gruez2• 2 years ago

James Hoffmann did a video on decaff coffee recently[1]. In it he basically says the "scary chemicals" aspect of other caffeine removal processes is basically overblown, and the reason why decaf coffee sucks has less to do with the solvents used and more to do with how the decaffination process makes the beans more prone to staling. In short, there's nothing really special about the swiss water process in particular and there are more important factors to worry about.

[1] https://www.summarize.tech/www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYTSdlOdk...

ydant4• 2 years ago

The point I really liked about that video is that decaf drinkers are probably the most passionate coffee lovers. We're drinking it for ONLY the taste/experience. It's a shame coffee roasters and coffee shops tend to not take it seriously. I know when I'm traveling I often want to stop in a coffee shop and get a nice decaf and relax for a bit, but most shops make it pretty clear it's not going to be a good experience by not putting any effort into featuring/caring about the decaf options.

jordanreger• 2 years ago

And chances are the roasters actually care about making it taste good. It's rare but you can find great decaf coffee if you look for it.

To me, it is weird that all coffee revolves around caffeine; I find the complex tastes way more rewarding than the milligrams of caffeine I get from it.

mastax• 2 years ago

The Ethyl Acetate (aka sugarcane) method is also good, as long as the resulting beans are complemented by the slight fruity flavor added by the process. There's a new plant in Colombia which makes some excellent coffees (provided they are roasted well).

It can be difficult to find roasters who actually care about their decaf coffee beans - they are more difficult to roast and some roasters still turn up their nose at it. Decaf beans stale faster (both before and after roasting) so it's even more important to get fresh beans from a good roaster.

criddell2• 2 years ago

Any roaster recommendations for decaffeinated beans?

Kirby642• 2 years ago

Citation needed. It’s possible it may taste the best, but I am skeptical of your claim that it is the healthiest.

One of the common methods of decaffeinating coffee uses supercritical CO2, which is in my view significantly less scary than the “proprietary green coffee extract” used by the Swiss Water process.

I suspect neither is actually harmful. And neither is the chemical solvent based decaf, honestly. Not in levels that are meaningful to health.

coffeelislove• 2 years ago

Swiss Water's Green Coffee Extract is literally just the soluble elements found in a coffee bean, minus the caffeine. (This allows the caffeine from new batches to then migrate out of those beans and into the extract.)

swader9993• 2 years ago

High amounts shrink the brain, increase dementia risk. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1028415X.2021.19...

And very few people drink 1-2 cups. The travel mugs and typical coffee place cups are close to this danger range.

martinky242• 2 years ago

After full covariate adjustment, consumption of >6 cups/day was associated with 53% higher odds of dementia compared to consumption of 1–2 cups/day

So what they're saying is too much of a (good? fine? reasonable?) thing can be a bad thing? Not sure this supports a case against caffeine.

You should look up what happens if someone consumes too much salt!

swader9993• 2 years ago

I think my edit addresses your point.

kvirani• 2 years ago

Or water even

timeon• 2 years ago

You should look up what happens if someone consumes too much salt!

People are eating too much salt in general - which already has negative impact on health.

Aeolun4• 2 years ago

Sometimes it feels like if you just abstained from everything, you’d be immortal.

richrichie3• 2 years ago

I am suspicious of studies that tout “% change in odds” in cases where the odds are pretty low (low enough to be modelled as Poisson) to start with.

catchnear4321• 2 years ago

so you’re saying that for big brain types the high doses might reduce the risk of brain squeeze, in cases of lack of sufficient space in the brain box.

this is great news.

SantalBlush• 2 years ago

And if it makes more space for the brain, that should also reduce the risk of concussion. Sounds great to me.

dilap• 2 years ago

On the other hand, we have Erdős: "A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems."

hiq• 2 years ago

Coffee and amphetamines I guess.

pc862• 2 years ago

"High amounts" is a bit of an understatement, the study is talking about more than 6 cups of coffee daily, which is going to be in the 550-600mg range. Up to about 400mg a day is safe for adults[0]. 600mg is a lot of caffeine. For context, a Bang energy drink which is on the upper end of what you can get in a single drink, is 300mg. Most "energy drinks" are around 200mg less. I'm not sure anyone is surprised by the statement "habitually drinking 3+ energy drinks a day, every day, for an extended period of time, might be bad for you."

[0] https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...

criddell2• 2 years ago

Panera Bread was selling lemonade with 390 mg of caffeine in it.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/12/12/panera-ch...

opportune2• 2 years ago

I think you are using energy drinks in your example for effect, only because people overrate their caffeine content relative to coffee. Coffee drinkers who have a full tumbler/togo cup in the morning and a sbux or continual refills from the office pot at work can far exceed the caffeine intake of 3 energy drinks. Meanwhile, Red Bulls actually have deceptively little caffeine and are barely worse than just a regular Coca Cola.

It’s very easy to get into the habit of extremely high caffeine intake, speaking from experience. Not only is caffeine in many drinks and extremely well distributed, its psychological effects are pretty mild. But I think the worst part is that people don’t really think about how much caffeine is in the coffee they’re drinking because it’s hard to measure.

LexLeeter• 2 years ago

6 cups a day is 48 oz of coffee. A travel mug and venti is 20oz. I don't know anyone who drinks more than 2 of those in a day.

Stop the hyperbole.

chrisoconnell• 2 years ago

A travel mug is more an amorphous volume than simply 20oz.

A Stanley Mug, like the recent Stanley x Starbucks collaboration is 40oz. I believe this may be what they are referring to.

However, it's rare that individuals with the 40oz mugs are filling them with coffee, and if they're with espresso drinks, it's more likely that the volume of milk is increased rather than consuming 8 shots of espresso.

I'd assume most people with travel mugs that consume coffee are using 10 - 16oz mugs like myself?

zhivota3• 2 years ago

Some Starbucks orders can compress 4 cups of coffee into one. The MG of caffeine in one of the larger orders can be enormous.

overstay8930• 2 years ago

This paper is so ass, it brushes off reduced sleep and then implies it’s caffeine’s fault instead of the user drinking caffeine when they aren’t supposed to.

Shit like this is why nobody trusts science anymore

pama• 2 years ago

Of course non of the paper associations talks about causality, but lack of caffeine is probably a worse overall health association per this paper. More people don’t drink coffee at all than have more than 6 cups a day. From the paper:

“The association between coffee consumption and dementia was non-linear (Pnon-linearity = 0.0001), with evidence for higher odds for non-coffee and decaffeinated coffee drinkers and those drinking >6 cups/day, compared to light coffee drinkers.”

IggleSniggle• 2 years ago

Thank you. It seems rather likely to me that people that are more prone to dementia are more likely to be self-medicating with these very high caffeine intakes. Unfortunately I have only anecdata for this intuition, but if you drink these quantities and/or know anyone with experience with dementia, I think you know what I mean.

narrator• 2 years ago

"The association between coffee consumption and dementia was non-linear (Pnon-linearity = 0.0001), with evidence for higher odds for non-coffee and decaffeinated coffee drinkers and those drinking >6 cups/day, compared to light coffee drinkers"

So, reading the study, not drinking coffee is bad and drinking more than 6 cups a day is bad too.

ambrose2• 2 years ago

“very few people drink 1-2 cups” - I really doubt this, most people I know drink 1-2 cups.

NoMoreNicksLeft• 2 years ago

Next you're going to say I need to lay off the crystal meth too.

coolsunglasses• 2 years ago

You'd be surprised (if you have ADHD)

https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/know-your-amphetamines

gruez2• 2 years ago

"Crystal meth" is probably fine as long as you're responsible with it and take it at therapeutic doses. It's available as a prescription drug and is indicated for ADHD and obesity[1].

[1] https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2017/00...

harimau777• 2 years ago

At least personally, I've found that starting to drink coffee has had a pretty dramatic positive impact on my depression.

I wonder if the difference in experience could come down to the specific circumstances and nature of the issues that someone faces?

pjc50• 2 years ago

You're not going to suggest that different people have different baseline biochemistry and would benefit from different things in different ways? No! That's not allowed! All health advice must fit all people, and people who don't fit the health advice shouldn't be allowed to complain about it.

/sarcasm, but I've seen serious versions of this argument

Aeolun4• 2 years ago

I do think it would be nice if we had health advice that applied to all people.

jollyoldpirate• 2 years ago

This is Dr. HN, but without the /sarcasm tag.

dahart2• 2 years ago

I keep seeing versions of the argument that we’re all unique snowflakes and so all science is bad and all advice is untrustworthy bs. Usually the argument feels more like a variation on ‘you’re not the boss of me’ than a serious discussion of the science. This feels especially common to me when discussing diets; people seem to get pretty defensive whenever some advice or outcome has any way of being interpreted as that person potentially having less than perfect behavior.

I don’t know what ‘people have different baseline biochemistry’ really means. Approximately zero humans survive on sulphur and chlorine in place of nitrogen and oxygen. This argument tends to overlook the fact that people are mostly similar, and there’s enough of us that we have decent data on how similar we are. Humans are all approximately the same construction, and have approximately the same reactions to most things. It’s true there’s tons of minor variability for some things, but no serious science or health advice that will fail to mention or acknowledge that variability. My advice (which may or may not work for you) is to ignore people who say health advice must fit all people… and also ignore people who say that no advice will work for them, or even that advice that works for most can’t work for them without trying it first.

I feel like a good default assumption is that something that works for the average person will probably work for me too, so try it first, and then look for alternatives if/when I find out it’s not working. This is still a good default assumption even when accounting for the ‘flaw of averages’ (cf. the Air Force story about cockpit design) - most of us will fit the the average for most things, even while at the same time most of us will be outliers for some things.

anter• 2 years ago

It's probably best to treat the articles like these (and the dietary advice in general) as an invitation to experiment and see how it works for your particular case, not as a definitive statement that "X is good for everyone always, Y is bad for everyone always"

ddorian43• 2 years ago

Depends what type of depression you have. Like "my life sucks" depression or "metabolic health is bad" depression or both.

raccoonDivider6• 2 years ago

Since we're exchanging anecdotal evidence, I also feel better with coffee. It lets me control how energized I am. Helped me avoid burnout and generally makes me feel a bit better no matter how much I take.

mateo1• 2 years ago

If it helps you it's great. I was drinking tons of coffee daily from my teenage years to my mid-20s. I didn't feel any ill effects from it. Now in my early 30s, it causes anxiety. I don't know how or why, but it's scary how caffeine and a little bit of tiredness turns me into a shell of a man these days. Having a safe stimulant to kick you out of inactivity is a great help so I'd say take advantage of it.

graemep4• 2 years ago

Coffee is an anti-depressant. AFAIK it increase serotonin and dopamine levels so is not all that different from a lot of antidepressant drugs.

belval• 2 years ago

At this point, many of you might be thinking: Zan, you sneaky weasel. Haven't you just cherry-picked your redditors and scientific publications to fit your narrative?

Adressing it is good, but ultimately it does not really act as a rebuttal, this is a biased collection of anecdotes from a subreddit of people drinking decaf.

That being said, if you do feel like your anxiety is always high and that you have a trouble sleeping, it's probably worth stopping and assessing, a bit like how people with IBS will just periodically remove things from their diet to see its impact.

no-dr-onboard• 2 years ago

It’s a pretty textbook “Post hoc ergo proprer hoc”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

quatrefoil• 2 years ago

A lot of dietary science is shaky, and I think we should accept that different people respond to various psychoactive substances differently. I don't have any reason to question the author's conclusions, nor doubt that others might have the same experience - even if it doesn't quite jibe with mine (I'm in this camp: https://twitter.com/danielcrosby/status/1534584565431296001).

What doesn't sit with me is that the article makes a lot of hyperbolic claims ("Caffeine is literally killing your dreams", etc) and says a lot of sciencey-sounding stuff, but then wraps it up with "no, you can't cricitize that":

Q: Don't you care? Don't you think it's misleading?
A: Nah. I'm not writing a philosophical treatise here. I'm not writing a lawsuit to take all coffee lovers to court. And I'm definitely not writing a scientific review.

I mean, OK, it's your blog - but you're trying to have it both ways. If you wanted to write about your subjective experience, fine. But you're making it seem as if you're presenting settled science.

mgfist2• 2 years ago

Agreed. Also, like all drugs and food in general, we all respond very differently to them, have different habits, different associations and different relationships with them. I personally had to quit alcohol, coffee and weed when I was battling a year-long stomach issue. I'm now on the other side and can confidently say that not drinking coffee was a net negative for me. I didn't feel more alert, I didn't sleep better and I didn't feel less anxious. In fact, I was generally much less alert and productive. My coffee habit is more or less where it was before my health issues. Alcohol wise, I'm also back at the same frequency but much lower volume. I like it but found that my perfect amount is 2-3 drinks, not 5-6. Finally for weed I've not gone back to it. It made me anxious and I don't miss it.

If someone else had gone through my experience, they may have come back to a completely different distribution of usage. And in fact I know many people who do various combination of the 3 because of the way each affects them. We're all different.

dahart2• 2 years ago

It’s fine if you’re bugged by the writing or argument style, but there is plenty of solid science on the side-effects of caffeine. It’s interesting that you criticize the author for being unscientific and then share a hyperbolic twitter anecdote and cast unsupported FUD on the science. The good science that we have always acknowledges that people respond differently, and yet we usually clump into a normal-ish distribution where the vast majority of people have very similar experiences, and we can quantify how similar and how often, and sometimes why there are deviations. Failing to acknowledge the similarities is as bad as failing to acknowledge the differences, scientifically speaking.

https://medlineplus.gov/caffeine.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Adverse_effects

toxik• 2 years ago

You can also just lower the dose instead of following this black and white “am I a drinker” thinking. A single (1/2 double) espresso in the morning is not so much.

cosmic_quanta• 2 years ago

That's what I'm thinking as well. I have 2 espressos per day and I don't get anywhere close to the state when I drink a single black coffee from <big chain>.

Not all coffees are the same. Some types of drip coffees (such as Tim Hortons) make me wonder if it's laced with cocaine.

johnny99k• 2 years ago

I only use Caffeine now when I'm really low on sleep and stop all intake after that. In high school, I would drink tons of caffeine every day.

I didn't realize until later in life that it contributes to my anxiety. I sleep much better without it and can actually get more work done. My anxiety is also reduced to almost nothing.

I think I got into a habit of just drinking coffee every day, that I didn't really think about it.

Swizec• 2 years ago

Important to note: Not everyone has the same reaction to caffeine. And not all caffeine hits the same. What it’s mixed with matters.

The caffeine in tea, for example, doesn’t have as many anxiety inducing effects because you also get a bunch of L-theanine, which has a calming effect. To the point that many modern energy drinks have started adding it to their formula.

Personally I sleep fine with or without caffeine. Timing matters little. What really absolutely truly impacts my quality if sleep – physical activity.

mgfist2• 2 years ago

Can't underscore how much better you sleep if you've done a good amount of physical activity. Truly nothing is better than lying down after a day of physical labor.

Aeolun4• 2 years ago

Or physical playing. You don’t need to make it drudgery to get the benefits :)

birdman3131• 2 years ago

I don't drink caffine on a daily basis but some weeks I do.

One of the big things for me is coffee is not a good one to drink. The caffeine in it may wake me up but it does not fix anything else so I find myself in a state that is best described as really bad morning person for the entire morning. I may be awake but I have essentially a tension at the base of my head and feel essentially hangry without the hunger.

Energy drinks (Redbull or aussie lemonade monster) wake me up much more mellow. I have thought a few times about trying to figure out what else is helping. Its not the sugar as the coffee has plenty.

genghisjahn• 2 years ago

These articles always tell me I’m doing too much or not enough.

corytheboyd• 2 years ago

Drink more red wine! Drinking any red wine at all will kill you! Replace water with red wine! Just looking at red wine linked to spontaneous combustion!!!

resiros3• 2 years ago

I quit Coffee one month each year (Ramadan while fasting). It has the effect of resetting my tolerance to caffeine. The first coffee after Ramandan feels more like Cocaine than Caffeine, almost like a superpower. However, I have to say, I don't see any difference in sleep quality with or without coffee. I just make sure only to drink coffee in the morning.

raccoonDivider6• 2 years ago

Doesn't that make the first few days of fasting miserable? Have you tried progressively reducing the dosage for a few weeks in preparation?

wwilim• 2 years ago

Isn't subjecting oneself to feeling miserable kind of the point of religious fasting?

electrosphere• 2 years ago

Yes, I fast for Ramadan and about a week beforehand switch to decaf for all my hot beverages.

When I didn't the headaches were terrible in the first few days of fasting.

resiros3• 2 years ago

I do exactly that. Usually I quit one week before Ramadan. When quitting, it's common to get headaches. When quitting before Ramadan, you can alleviate it with a bit of Aspirin.

grecy2• 2 years ago

After a decade of a cup or two a day, I switched to decaf, and then stopped that too.

I had no idea, but it wasn’t until I stopped that I realized I had been living life through a fog… kind of dulled down senses and reactions.

I love coffee, but I feel so much better without it I’ll never go back. I highly recommend everyone quit just to see how they feel. You might be surprised

ikesau• 2 years ago

I think it's good to examine all habits that we have, and if this article gets you to consider the (potentially unknown) trade offs you're making, great!

but to really know what they are, RCT self-experiments are the best way to work out what's really going on.

gwern has a bunch of examples (https://gwern.net/zeo/caffeine) but you should tailor yours to the effects you're most interested in.

incidentally, does anyone here have a go-to tutorial for how to set one up, how to do power analysis, etc? i'm persuaded by why we should do RCTs, but I don't have the background in statistics to confidently run them myself.

wzdd• 2 years ago

This isn't really against caffeine, it's against drinking multiple cups of coffee throughout the day. Tea is less anxiety-inducing that coffee (and lower in caffeine). Even if you stick with coffee, a cup in the morning won't mess with your sleep unless you are unusually sensitive.

mritchie712• 2 years ago

I quit booze a few years ago. It's a 10x improvement on my life. Quitting caffeine is probably not a 10x'er, but seems worth a go.

kodt• 2 years ago

anecdotally I have taken breaks from both and taking a break from alcohol seems far more beneficial

CapmCrackaWaka2• 2 years ago

I had a very similar experience as this author. All throughout high school and college, I was prescribed Adderall. After graduation, I got a job, and realized Adderall wasn't good for me long term, so I switched to coffee. This alone helped with my anxiety, ability to sleep, and social interactions.

After a while, I started to wonder if coffee is good for me also. So I quit cold turkey for a few weeks as an experiment. I couldn't believe the effect it had. I am angry at myself that I didn't just do this earlier. I sleep fine all night now, I don't have to pee as often, my anxiety is basically gone, I feel better about life in general, my brain fog disappeared, and I no longer have "good days and bad days" mentally, just good days.

There is no more powerful drug or therapy in the world than:

1) Exercising regularly.

2) Eating healthy.

3) Quitting the stimulants.

raccoonDivider6• 2 years ago

How much did you drink? I found the same effect when I didn't know how to use coffee and drank at any hour, multiple times a day, from the office's coffee machine, and couldn't make it at home. Obvious result: bad sleep, anxiety, and a crash every weekend. They all got better after I quit, also obviously.

Then I looked into it more, bought my own press and grinder, started taking one cup a morning with the dosage I want, occasionally a small extra but nothing after 2PM. The effect is pretty nice. On average, I feel a bit better with it than without.

CapmCrackaWaka2• 2 years ago

I started out drinking a lot, usually 2 cups per day, one at breakfast and lunch. But eventually I just weaned myself down to one cup at breakfast for a few years, and I was still having trouble sleeping.

I feel like caffeine is a *results may vary topic, every time it is discussed many people have wildly different experiences.

ck425• 2 years ago

Why were you on Adderall? ADHD? Personally I'd struggle to not have any stimulants even if I could have less.

weeksie2• 2 years ago

Tangental but as someone who used to have sleep issues but has no intention of ditching coffee, taking Magnesium L-Threonate has utterly transformed the quality of my sleep. Used to wake up a ton in the night, take forever to get to sleep, etc. and now I sleep extremely well and if I'm up in the night it doesn't take me long to get back to sleep.

timka• 2 years ago

Is it any better than magnesium citrate?

weeksie2• 2 years ago

The sales pitch the manufacturers give is that L-Threonate is better at getting through the blood/brain barrier so it is more effective for stuff like sleep. I do notice a difference between that and when I just take Magnesium Chloride but I haven't tried citrate so I don't know.

3l3ktr4• 2 years ago

I wish this was initially disclosed as an opinion piece rather than reading through it and finding it out in the end.

WolfeReader• 2 years ago

Counterpoint: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/your-brain-on-food/2...

ayk3• 2 years ago

Reminds me of this very useful graphic. https://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbdgbfiz4g1qb25dg.jpg

sam537• 2 years ago

Some comments about dietary science are true. It is extremely impossible to isolate the effect of a single substance (ethically).

This person greatly benefited from stopping caffeine intake which is great. It is part of the journey to understand ourselves and what makes us work/improve/feel better.

If you have a anxiety-o-meter that looks like this: [-----------------------------------]

and your baseline is here: [-------------------------X---------] - you just need a little push to go into anxiety/can't sleep mode which can come from caffeine.

But if your baseline is around here: [--x--------------------------------] -maybe some coffee in the morning, right after lunch will greatly increase your clarity/make you able to fulfill your duties. People who drink caffeine for pleasure (I love the taste of coffee and sometimes I get beans so good that I just want to drink several cups) will notice the negative effect in their sleep/anxiety levels. We must go back to Paracelsus 'dosis sola facit venenum'. The dose makes the poison.

OliveMate2• 2 years ago

I've been on the decaf wagon for a good few years now, I can't say it helped me out with anxiety or productivity but I can echo the sentiment that I can sleep within minutes. Also not relying on caffeine to keep me going pretty much forces me to sleep at a reasonable time.

The hardest thing about giving up caffeine has to be the immediate effects. Your body takes it as a massive shock and you're stuck with what feels like a migraine for 2 days. Not fun.

I know decaf still has some caffeine in it, but it's a compromise for something different – for a month of cold turkey I thought I had cravings for caffeine, but it turned out it was hot drinks I was after. I think it's the one luxury I couldn't be without.

crazygringo4• 2 years ago

Your body takes it as a massive shock and you're stuck with what feels like a migraine for 2 days. Not fun.

Yup, but you can wean yourself off gradually and it's fine. I've done it several times -- just reducing it by 10% of your original amount each day, so you spread the effect out over 10 days. At least for me, zero headaches.

Not gonna lie though -- there is a generalized feeling of a little bit of extra "grogginess" each day. But much less than if you've come down with a cold, for example. And it's far less painful than going cold turkey.

Because you're right -- otherwise the 2-day migraine is awful.

bluecheese4523• 2 years ago

I quit cold turkey and had bad headaches. What helped for me was having a decaf coffee. Just one would make the headaches go away. So the jump from say 300 mg to 10mg of caffeine was somehow much better than 300 to 0.

OliveMate2• 2 years ago

And it's far less painful than going cold turkey.

As stupid as it sounds I forgot that it was an option. There's something clean about saying "I won't have any more of X after this date" and sticking to it. Although I could've tapered off beforehand!

ydant4• 2 years ago

I stuck with 7 or so months of dandy blend and roibos to make sure it wasn't just an addiction to the caffeine - and I eventually came back to decaf coffee. The problem is I want hot drinks with body and complexity - and dandy blend comes close, but is so flat compared to a coffee or a black tea. :(

sp332• 2 years ago

I think tapering off caffeine is a lot more gentle than going cold turkey. And if you are in a hurry for whatever reason, plan to have one ~50mg dose on day three or four when the headache gets distractingly bad. You can use Tylenol Ultra Relief or Excedrin Migraine if you don't want to deal with coffee or soda. That should get you over the hump with minimal disruption.

theshrike792• 2 years ago

The mistake that people make is that they expect to be 100% wired the second they get up from bed, while in actuality it takes an hour a two for the (enzyme that wakes you up) to start being produced in your body.

Also: caffeine doesn't make you more alert, it just borrows alertness from the future by blocking the receptors where Adenosine attaches to. The enzymes are still produced, they're not going anywhere.

nunez3• 2 years ago

a cup of decaf has less caffeine than an ounce of dark chocolate. lots of things have caffeine; it's a naturally-occurring substance.

i also got headaches when i quit caf coffee, though i didn't realize that it was because of that at the time.

blastbking• 2 years ago

Seems like the author is a slow metabolizer like me. Interestingly enough, it seems that the caffeine half life can be shortened by eating broccoli (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17266520/) - by having coffee in the mornings and broccoli with dinner I've been able to enjoy the mood boosting effects of caffeine during the day and still be able to sleep fine.

Sleep quality aside though, I thought my anxiety was due to stressful job, but maybe it's due to all the caffeine I have in an attempt to be productive.. perhaps something to experiment with myself.

kzrdude• 2 years ago

Thanks for sharing, even the remote chance that it works for me makes it worth trying

InSteady• 2 years ago

A lot of the back and forth in this thread seems to be overlooking the glaring fact that caffeine's half-life varies from 2 to 12 hours depending on the person. Getting to 90% elimination could take one person ~6 hours and another person ~36 hours.

This, on top of the fact that caffeine has been shown to increase cortisol secretion and adrenaline, as well as boosting the effects of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain, should give a very clear indication that caffeine is going to have drastically different effects from person to person.

Anyone who is struggling with sleep, anxiety, and/or mood disturbances should consider reducing or eliminating caffeine for several weeks to see if it helps. Don't expect it to be a magic bullet to solve all problems, just like anything else. Bodies are complex, and when we are chronically suffering from sub-optimal functioning, it's a good bet that their is some complicated and highly variable biochemistry going on that's keeping the body from homeostasis / optimum function.

qgin• 2 years ago

If coffee decreases the possibility of myocardial infarction and it is no longer harmful from a carcinogenicity point of view, it is the time to acknowledge Gustav III (1746-1792 CE) (Encyclopædia Britannica, 2016 ▶), the adventures king of Sweden’s, pioneer experiment on coffee safety as the first documented “randomized clinical trial” in medical history.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5355814/

bheadmaster2• 2 years ago

As a person with willpower/focus issues, I've found caffeine to be a godsend in college. I've started using so much I've switched to caffeine pills to save money. At first I was taking 200mg in the morning to wake up, 100mg every couple of hours to get me through the lectures, and another 200mg at home to study.

It went well, and I became one of the best students in my class, but my anxiety went over the roof. I became irritable, angry, unpleasant, started shouting at my girlfriend over small meaningless issues, and eventally alienated my whole friend circle. My tolerance also went up - at some point I was taking 1000-1500mg of caffeine a day.

I remember one morning I couldn't get up, so I took 200mg pill and lied back to bed, then woke up again and couldn't get up, so I took 200mg more, and then 200mg more, and so on... I finally woke up after 1000mg. In public transit, I felt sick and my heart was pounding so much I thought I would get a heart attack. I couldn't eat the whole day and I felt sick like never before in my life.

After that I never went back on the caffeine pills again. I still drink coffee because I find it hard to function without it, and I'm trying to quit. But for some tasks, caffeine is simply too powerful to go without. Working out without caffeine feels just lame.

Anyways, thanks for reading my blogpost in the HN comments. Hopefully someone finds this anegdote entertaining.

Aeolun4• 2 years ago

I think the benefit of coffee over pills is that you actually need to get/make it, then drink it, which acts as a natural limit to intake (most people will feel sick after drinking several coffees)

Sammi4• 2 years ago

Yeah I can't defend the existence of caffeine pills. They're actually dangerous and you could just drink coffee instead.

robertlutece• 2 years ago

Eat all the junk food you want as long as you cook it yourself. — Michael Pollan

charlie0• 2 years ago

I've found this out the hard way. I don't drink caffeine on days with meetings or drink it after the meetings end and it really helps with anxiety.

I've also started drinking decaf on some days and there's at least 1 day a week I don't drink any coffee at all. This gives my body a chance to reset.

gnicholas• 2 years ago

I don’t drink coffee, and even I found this completely unconvincing. I’m glad this guy discovered he doesn’t need coffee, and that he’s sharing that experience.

But IMO, including the Reddit comments makes his post less convincing/credible.

alkonaut4• 2 years ago

I have been drinking a lot of coffe my entire adult life. Many cups of really dark coffee. But a cup is small. And dark coffee doesn't necessarily mean loaded with caffeine. Nothing prepares you for the kind of watery-yet-caffeine-loaded juice you get at a US coffee shop. It's like they think someone would enjoy drinking a half liter hot beverage, and get half a lethal dose of caffeine. Even though I drink 5-10 cups a day, my body does not approve of even a medium (or whatever they call it - it's an insult to coffee sizes in any case) Starbucks coffee. I think if people just drink reasonable coffee cup sizes of reasonably coffeeine-loaded coffee, they don't need to have a rushing heart or any other bad side effects. If you have trouble sleeping then stop drinking after noon. I don't think many are reporting bad effects on sleep from drinking coffee only in the morning.

richrichie3• 2 years ago

It is customary for me to enjoy an espresso (occasionally two) with a bar of dark chocolate after dinner. I sleep well not much later. 100s of thousands, if not millions, do this as a matter of culture.

crazygringo4• 2 years ago

But have you ever tried stopping caffeine and then comparing your sleep?

What if you think you sleep well now, but it turns out you can sleep so much better?

I'm not saying you will (I'm neither pro- nor anti-caffeine). But I am saying that unless you've tried it, you have no way of knowing. And I know lots of people who have improved their sleep in various ways, who thought they were sleeping normally/fine, and then discovered they actually hadn't been -- they just didn't know any better.

(And even if millions of people do something as a matter of culture, that doesn't mean it's good for your health. There are tons of cultural practices that are bad for health, or bad for a subset of the population.)

zemvpferreira• 2 years ago

There is a huge blind spot in scientific caffeine research around habitual use. Every article you'll have read saying "don't drink coffee after 9am or you'll never sleep again in your life pinky promise" is based on the same type of study: Take people who drink x amount of coffee, give them a large caffeine dose at a non-habitual time, and report that they don't sleep as well that night. Which is obviously not how caffeine is used in real life.

Few things have disappointed me as much as caffeine research. If we can't get something so direct properly studied, what hope does 90% of science have?

alkonaut4• 2 years ago

I definitely can't sleep as well if I drink coffee after say 5pm. I also have quite an extreme effect of coffee when it comes to sharpening my attention and cognitive ability. Those of my friends who say they can sleep well after coffee also don't really report any significant effect on ability after a cup. I think it's two sides of the same coin. You get the good with the bad, if your caffeine receptor-thingies are tuned.

crazygringo4• 2 years ago

I don't think many are reporting bad effects on sleep from drinking coffee only in the morning.

The article is precisely about how drinking coffee, even just in the morning, absolutely can negatively affect your sleep.

alkonaut4• 2 years ago

As with anything medical, there can be outliers. But having sleep problems from a morning coffee seems like such an outlier that it doesn't make for interesting reading.

LeafItAlone• 2 years ago

Even though I drink 5-10 cups a day, my body does not approve of even a medium (or whatever they call it - it's an insult to coffee sizes in any case) Starbucks coffee.

Ok, then exactly what the heck are you drinking? Starbucks is known for having more-than-average amounts of caffeine for their coffee compared to other chains, but it’s not _that_ much. Even a cup of black tea has more tea than 1/8 of the caffeine than any (on menu) medium coffee from Starbucks.

alkonaut4• 2 years ago

I'm drinking regular espresso coffee. So I would think it probably has 1/2 to 2/3 the caffeine concerntraition of the starbucks coffee. But after my whole day of coffee and say 5-6 cups I have had less by than 12oz tall starbucks, and probably less by caffeine content than half that. But that's also spread out over a whole day, that's the key.

The peak blood caffeine concentration is a lot less when drinking 5 normal (That's european for "tiny" or "ant size") cups than than if I would have had an 8 or 12 oz coffee at once in the morning, even if it was the same coffee.

In short: I drink one decent starbucks size cup of coffee. Slowly, from 8am to 4pm.

srid• 2 years ago

The Italians drink single shot espresso all day. Get an espresso machine with 7g basket, and you are set to enjoy coffee all day without subjecting yourself to artificial monastic rules.

I collected some useful information in this X thread: https://twitter.com/sridca/status/1710450654500561028

vinay_ys• 2 years ago

What we really know for sure is this – sleep is good, anxiety is bad. So, if you aren't getting good sleep, find ways to fix it. And if you are anxious all the time, find ways to fix it.

By one tradition that's thousands of years old – Yoga+Pranayama+Meditation (linking physical/mental_movement+breadth) and fasting + eating moderately (eat only if you are hungry and eat enough to quench hunger, and eat 'satvik' food) and cultivating positive thought patterns (practicing gratitude, humility, curiosity) is also known to solve for sleep and anxiety.

Coming to coffee, all coffee is not made the same way and everyone don't drink the same quantity per day either. And it doesn't have the same impact on everyone's body. So, it is best to avoid jumping to broad generalized conclusions based on a few anecdotal stories.

But, it is good for people to share their experiences and for others to consider them.

graemep4• 2 years ago

By one tradition that's thousands of years old

It is hard to think of a major religious tradition that does not have most of these elements (fasting, moderation, practicing positive thought patterns) within it. The posture and movement bit is specific to that tradition - but even there I think things like "work and prayer" are not that different.

Coming to coffee, all coffee is not made the same way and everyone don't drink the same quantity per day either. And it doesn't have the same impact on everyone's body.

Very much my reaction. Would having or not having a cup of coffee in the morning make a big difference to me? Hard to tell.

Also, if you have a lot of coffee coming of it suddenly can be a problem because caffeine is an anti-depressant. A coffee habit might be self-medication.

I find the tone of the article a bit annoying. It reminds me of people on LinkedIn going on about how much better they feel since they gave up alcohol.

ifyoubuildit2• 2 years ago

I find the tone of the article a bit annoying. It reminds me of people on LinkedIn going on about how much better they feel since they gave up alcohol.

I'm curious about this. I notice this sentiment on any topic where someone quit somebody else's drug of choice.

Someone says they improved their life by dropping weed, the responses will be full of people telling you that alcohol is legal poison (nevermind that nobody was talking about alcohol) and weed is a miracle drug, and they are perfectly high functioning thank you very much.

Someone says they improved their life by dropping booze, everyone has to tell them how nobody lives forever, and didn't you see that study that says moderate drinking is healthy?

And so on for all the other substances people consume.

Its like a lot of people secretly feel like they have to justify their own usage whenever someone does something differently, as if they feel attacked for some reason. But you don't have to. You can put whatever you want in your body for whatever reason you choose. And if other people choose not to (and maybe even choose to write about it), why should that be a bother to you?

thesz2• 2 years ago

sleep is good, anxiety is bad.

Sleep is not all good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersomnia

Anxiety is not all bad: https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/43757

Sattvic food is not good for your health: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37085478/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35710164/

lukan• 2 years ago

But in general sleep is good and anxiety is bad and the studies you linked do not show, whether eating fruits in moderation is bad.

eragone• 2 years ago

I think any reasonable interpretation of the comment you’re replying to is not “sleep is always good” but rather “sleep is good, on the whole”, which is absolutely true.

Both studies you linked indicate correlation not causation

riversflow2• 2 years ago

Both of those studies on foods consider only people who already have Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. One of them is about specifically sugary beverages, not whole fruit. Neither show “Sattvic food is not good for your health”.

senectus1• 2 years ago

as with anything, the poison is in the dosage.

Not sure why the world finds this so hard to understand, but I think we have the same issue with politics. Everything seems to suffer from binaryism. everything is either good or bad, right or wrong, healthy or unhealthy, us or them...

the world and life in general is full of shades of gray. its not 1's and 0's.

AtlasBarfed• 2 years ago

Do others not get a lot of headaches on caffeine? Yeah there's ones that come with going off caffeine, but the amount of headaches days I have a month plummets once off of the stuff.

ethanbond• 2 years ago

I don’t get headaches from caffeine and I imagine most daily drinkers don’t either.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan• 2 years ago

That's either dehydration or withdrawal. Caffeine is a diuretic.

If you consume roughly the same amount of caffeine at the same time each day, and go out of your way to drink more water, caffeine use won't cause headaches.

rubicon332• 2 years ago

Caffeine is in many anti-headache drugs because it literally is a vasoconstrictor that helps reduce headache.

thomasahle• 2 years ago

And it doesn't have the same impact on everyone's body.

I'm one of those that seem able to drink lots of coffee even at 6 or 8pm and still fall fast asleep.

I also don't feel any different during the day whether I drink it or not. Though I usually still drink it, for various reasons like taste, warmth and social aspects.

People always want to find simple universal dietary rules.

jononomo• 2 years ago

Are you still under 40?

BubbleRings2• 2 years ago

Yeah but there are some great and true simple universal dietary/wellness rules. For instance, this one: Never let a doctor put you on medication for anxiety when you have not yet tried totally quitting caffeine for a couple months.

teapot7• 2 years ago

Likewise. I can happily drink coffee at bedtime. I never experience a "coffee rush".

A yoga instructor friend once told me "You have a sluggish metabolism". I cannot deny it.

teraku• 2 years ago

Stronger By Science[0] recently did a longer piece on caffeine, trying to argue against it (from the perspective of lifters who actually enjoy caffeine as a performance enhancer). You know, scientifically trying to disprove your believes.

TL;DR: Probably mostly harmless in medium quantities, but no real proven long-term benefits. So if you enjoy coffee, just drink in moderation.

[0] https://www.strongerbyscience.com/pros-cons-caffeine/

dappermanneke• 2 years ago

popular strain of Neo-puritanism trying to dig under consumption habits long attested to be perfectly safe and not harmful to your health, if not good for you

yes, not drinking coffee makes you a super special person. good job you!

zeta0134• 2 years ago

I tried this! I went completely caffeine free for over a year and was... fine? But way more tired all the time, and generally having trouble focusing on tasks. In my particular case, I suspect caffeine is a self administered coping mechanism for mild ADHD tendencies, and without that I became much more sensitive to the food I was eating and my changing energy levels throughout the day.

Eventually I realized I had stopped coping with caffeine and, instead, started coping with *sugar*, and gained 20 lbs in the process.

I'm back on caffeine again, but the rules are: one (1) cup in the morning, however I like it. Then water for every other beverage all day long. That seems to have done the trick, and now I again sleep through the night and can more easily remain focused throughout the day.

The point is, experiment, yes! But it's your body and your mind. Take notes and figure out what works best in your case. Everyone is a little different.

_ink_2• 2 years ago

Yeah, I have the same feeling about ADHD. I would like to go decaf, I really do. Like higher blood pressure is already enough reason for me for quitting it. But when I don't drink caffeine, I cannot focus on anything anymore. Now I haven't been tested for ADHD so I don't have access to real ADHD meds. But those come with side effects as well, so I might just stay with caffeine.

tayo422• 2 years ago

Did you quit long enough that you got through the withdrawal?

Caffeine withdrawal is pretty bad, and you'll probably have trouble thinking. The first time I quit cold turkey, I felt dumb. Couldn't think clearly or focus until I got past it.

theshrike792• 2 years ago

I _had_ to quit caffeine last fall, my blood pressure was so high I could literally feel and hear it. (160/95-ish)

Quitting coffee and energy drinks did it for a while, but my sleep issues continued. I had to switch to caffeine free cola too and then my sleep started improving.

Now my BP has normalised around 125/80...

...But it seems I have been suppressing ADD symptoms with my caffeine intake for years and my brain is going 1000km/h and bouncing around. I sleep well and I'm not tired - but I can't focus for shit.

woodrowbarlow• 2 years ago

i live with (more than mild) ADHD and this is something i only just realized about myself. i used to use medication, but keeping up with the schedules and appointments needed to maintain steady access to the medicine is _exactly_ the sort of thing i struggle with; these days i haven't been medicated for over ten years. i use caffeine (coffe & energy drinks), nicotine (vaping), and sugar (jelly beans) to be a functional member of society. i honestly didn't realize i was self-medicating until a doctor pointed it out to me a year ago.

i'm pretty certain my current habits are shortening my lifespan and that my life would be happier (and more productive) with medicine. at the same time, i have a partner who does use medicine and i watch the hurdles they face (with insurance, with pharmacy shortages, juggling schedules with multiple doctors, having withdrawal when availability doesn't line up) and i feel like i wouldn't stand a chance of juggling all of that.

zhivota3• 2 years ago

Another option for self medication is exercise. I've been an endurance exercise addict off and on for my whole life, it can take the place of many of your self medications, or if you can't give those up, it can at least nullify the sugar you are taking in by burning it off.

frisbee6152• 2 years ago

I second the “experimenting” thing. I would recommend going caffeine free for a couple weeks every once in a while, just to kind of… keep track of the addiction. I’ll quit coffee occasionally, historically usually for a tolerance break if it’s getting a bit too much, or to just kind of “reset” my brain chemistry.

I ultimately found that reducing was a good idea, but I personally like coffee a lot and feel it adds something for me. I also have adhd though, so I’m probably playing with a slightly different deck on the “how stimulants interact with the brain” front.

I have found that having controls and limits around caffeine intake is a pretty good practice. I found that to reliably sleep well, I need to never drink caffeine after noon. And reducing my intake a bit helps as well. But from there, I haven’t seen much further benefit from quitting entirely.

J_Shelby_J• 2 years ago

Caffeine is self-medication for the drudgery of the modern life. Also Texas allergy season.

brainzap• 2 years ago

try switching to cacao, it made me clamer and more focused

Sammi4• 2 years ago

My fix was to quit the job where I felt like I had to drink coffee to survive the drudgery. Now I work from home and can jus be tired if I'm tired. It's great.

raccoonDivider6• 2 years ago

The graph titled "Caffeine Accumulation With Long Half Life" is weird. Isn't that not how half-life works? A higher blood level should mean faster elimination, but here it acts like the baseline changes each day. No matter how slow the user's clearance is, the ratio should always take the same time to get halved.

Edit: actually this graph implies that people like the author would end up poisoned by a lethal dose of caffeine after a few weeks to months. Maybe these people exist but it can't be common.

tlb• 2 years ago

Caffeine elimination, like all metabolic processes, isn't quite linear. At low levels the elimination rate is proportional to the caffeine concentration, so you get the "half life" exponential decay curve. But at high levels, elimination is limited by liver enzymes and decay is approximately linear.

So yes, there is some level of caffeine intake that exceeds the max rate the liver can remove it and concentration would increase indefinitely.

raccoonDivider6• 2 years ago

How high a level are we talking? Is it common to have so few enzymes that a non-insane dose of coffee per day overwhelms the liver?

gls2ro• 2 years ago

Say you drink 2 cups of coffee every day.

Is there any time T where there is zero coffee in the organism?

If the answer is there is no Tm then is there an N=number of days, where there are dangerous levels of coffee accumulated in the organism?

or are we more in an equilibrium state?

pimlottc• 2 years ago

Good for the author, but there are plenty of people who don't drink caffeine and still have a hard time sleeping well.

bryanlarsen2• 2 years ago

Another reason to not regularly use caffeine is that it can be an effective medication, especially in combination with other medications. Caffeine increases blood flow in the brain, so it can be effective for headaches, and it increases the absorption of other drugs like ibuprofen and acetaminophen.

If caffeinated is your normal state, then it becomes much less effective at treating migraines, hangovers and other headaches.

city412• 2 years ago

This site says just the opposite

Caffeine narrows the blood vessels in your brain. Without it, your blood vessels widen.

https://www.healthline.com/health/headache/caffeine-withdraw...

bryanlarsen2• 2 years ago

Okay, I may have the mechanism wrong, but you've confirmed that it's active in brain blood flow. It's definitely an effective medicine and complement, at least for me. It's included in many OTC cold & headache mixes for a reason.

User23• 2 years ago

This reminds me of spiders on drugs[1]. Caffeine absolutely wrecks them.

[1] https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/nasa-spiders-drugs-experime...

rhinoceraptor• 2 years ago

Yep, many psychoactive alkaloid compounds are made by plants to deter insects and herbivores, for example caffeine, nicotine, and cocaine.

eszed• 2 years ago

Like the author, habitual coffee drinking gives me significant anxiety. I didn't call it that, when I figured it out in my early twenties - I said "jittery" - but it's elevated heart-rate, so same diff (that's something else we said back in the nineties).

What the author doesn't mention (and maybe didn't experience, but you might) is that quitting can cause splitting headaches. The two or three times I've gotten off caffeine have been miserable. I've felt worse, for longer, than the two or three times I've gone off nicotine.

A bonus effect, however, is that when I do take caffeine - usually when I need to stay alert driving at night or early morning - it's far more effective.

1letterunixname• 2 years ago

It's the most widely-abused performance enhancing drug, but each person will need to assess the tradeoffs, long-term implications, and unknowns:

+ Productivity

+ Focus

+ Clarity

+ Symptomatic cure for migraines

~+ Probable neuroprotectiveness

~ Mild anorectic

~- Unclear GERD risks

~- Weak anticholinergic - probably not tardive dyskinesia or dementia, but the long-term effects are unclear

- Increased heart rate and blood pressure

- Diuretic

- Higher cortisol levels

- Dependency

- Tolerance

- Caffeine withdrawal headaches

- Slow caffeine metabolization (CYP1A2 rs762551 CC/CA) vs. fast (AA)

aworks• 2 years ago

I wasn't aware of the migraine cure.

When I had headaches, my neurologist told me to cut out alcohol, binge TV watch and caffeine. That helped but did not cure me.

Then during the pandemic I started the enjoyable daily habit of drinking sparkling HopTea (some caffeine, no alcohol). It's definitely a diuretic but I can't say about other symptoms

darthrupert• 2 years ago

I get a huge difference when I switch to tea. It's like a different drug altogether. The effect stays after the tolerance period of about a week.

throw4847285• 2 years ago

As my bipolar disorder got worse, caffeine became a non-starter. It's a real bummer. I still try to sneak in a diet coke or a green tea or two on a day when I'm very tired, but the result is inevitably a hypomanic episode right at bedtime. It sucks because I love the taste of good coffee, and decaf just doesn't cut it.

bayindirh2• 2 years ago

The user found out that he's overdosing on caffeine and cutting it late in the day.

Caffeine takes 10 hours to clear from your system. I only drink a single cup of coffee every day, at 1 PM, to clear my afternoon better.

It's not a substitute for sleep, lack of attention and your body has an upper limit. Don't abuse that limit, and you'll have none of the problems author described.

I'm telling you as a person who drank 2 liters of coffee flat, every day.

gkbrk• 2 years ago

Caffeine can take and usually takes way longer than 10 hours to clear from your system.

If you have 400 mg of caffeine in your body (max daily caffeine recommended by FDA), after 15 hours you will still have ~64 mg left. After 15 hours you still have the equivalent of 1 ounce of espresso in you.

bayindirh2• 2 years ago

400mg of caffeine equals to ~1.0L - 1.2L of filter coffee. Drinking it in one go is not that easy or common to begin with.

When you drink in 300ml mugs with normal speed, you clear the caffeine 10 hours after your last mug. That was my point.

If we want to skew numbers, we can take pure caffeine in powdered form theoretically, but that would be very unpleasant to deal with, and is not the mode of caffeine consumption I have seen around, to be honest.

simonsarris• 2 years ago

To add another anecdote: I drink minimum one small pot of coffee a day (a pour-over I make with my wife, 30g/450g beans/water), plus a moka pot or two in the afternoon, or a 15g pour-over. And 1-3 espresso shots if I go into the office. I consider the coffee experience positively euphoric. Almost spiritual. Certainly ritual. I would never give up the time of sitting with my wife for half an hour to an hour each morning (especially in this season by the fire).

I have never had anything like anxiety, before nor after coffee. I suspect that for many people's cases with such things, other dietary changes (including unnoticed enormous amounts of sugar with the coffee) may be the real culprit. But it's so hard to say with individuals.

munchler2• 2 years ago

And 1-3 espresso shots if I go into the office. I consider the coffee experience positively euphoric. Almost spiritual.

As someone who doesn’t consume caffeine, this sounds a lot like addiction. You can keep the ritual and ditch the caffeine by drinking decaf if you want.

throwup238• 2 years ago

This is why we can’t have nice things (or bathroom stalls that go all the way down to the floor). People be shooting up drugs everywhere, even at work.

riversflow2• 2 years ago

Why does it sound like addiction and not just enjoying something?

I don’t get this sentiment.

arcanemachiner2• 2 years ago

As someone who is addicted to caffeine, hell yes it is an addiction.

A long time ago, I cut out the addictions that were causing negative effects for me (mainly weed and tobacco). I kept caffeine around since I can get wired and still do my job, and it's not overtly unhealthy.

An addiction isn't something inherently bad. Everyone's addicted to something or another. But how many addictions synergize with one's performance at work?

ydant4• 2 years ago

For what it's worth, my wife and I also sit and drink coffee in the morning together (although not as a consistent daily ritual). Ours is just decaf. (good) Decaf can taste very good. I've certainly had decaf that was better than most caffeinated coffee I've had. But it's harder to find serious attempts at decaf roasts, sadly.

I can also say that after quitting caffeine (8-9 months ago) my sleep improved dramatically for about 5 months. Then I started getting sloppy and mixed in light-caff (like chocolate and decaffeinated teas/coffees) and other factors in my life also kicked in and sleep got worse again. Unfortunately I don't have the drastic caffeine cut to fall back on now.

For me, the change 9 months ago was entirely one change - unsweetened caffeinated drinks to unsweetened purely non-caffeine drinks (like "dandy blend" and rooibos).

Anxiety didn't decrease noticeably when I made the change, but sleep improved a lot. Now if I drink caffeinated teas (3 times in the past 2 months) or eat a lot of chocolate I definitely feel the anxiety and just general discomfort. So there's a link of some sort. It feels uncomfortable now...

rubslopes• 2 years ago

Decaf can taste very good. I've certainly had decaf that was better than most caffeinated coffee I've had. But it's harder to find serious attempts at decaf roasts, sadly.

James Hoffmann made a great video about this recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYTSdlOdkn0

loeg4• 2 years ago

Decaf can taste ok but even really good decaf pales in comparison to caf, unfortunately. The process of getting the caffeine out is just inherently harmful to the flavor. I think moderation is the key for most people. Drink at most a moderate amount of coffee once in the morning; don't drink it throughout the day.

pengaru• 2 years ago

I have never had anything like anxiety, before nor after coffee. I suspect that for many people's cases with such things, other dietary changes (including unnoticed enormous amounts of sugar with the coffee) may be the real culprit. But it's so hard to say with individuals.

AIUI there's a well established genetic component to caffeine sensitivity and metabolism.

Personally I find dissolving in a spoonful of lions mane mushroom powder takes the edge off and also seems to mitigate withdrawal symptoms should I choose to take a break for more than a day.

wnolens• 2 years ago

I'm jealous.

One coffee: noticeable anxiety

2 coffees a day for a few days turns into a panic attack.

I've run the experiment many many times (easy with daily habits and a love for coffee). I definitely have pre-existing anxiety, but the effect of caffeine on me is clear as day.

Decaf and I'm fine.

I can tell when I'm mistakenly given regular coffee (frequently with baristas) or when a particular bean isn't that decaffeinated.

mtlmtlmtlmtl• 2 years ago

I'm the same, though I don't consume a lot of caffeine lately. I do struggle with anxiety disorders but caffeine doesn't make it worse(or better).

Energy drinks do though, and they make me jittery and sweaty, which coffee doesn't. Sugar or sugar-free doesn't seem to make a difference.

My hypothesis is that it's all the niacin they put in energy drinks. 250% of RDI in a 500ml can is typical, sometimes even more than that.

awongh• 2 years ago

What’s funny to me is the degree to which i perceive people’s denial that caffeine and coffee get you incredibly high.

I’m not sure if this is what you exactly meant by euphoric, but I sometimes experience similar things, and I find it funny that “don’t talk to me until I’ve had my cup of coffee” is a negatively phrased statement of “I’m gonna get high on caffeine then I’ll enjoy this conversation more”- as if society wants to deny the psychotropic effects of drinking this drink.

CuriouslyC• 2 years ago

That's not an accurate characterization. Don't talk to me until I've had my coffee is as much a statement about morning low body temperature/thirst and morning ritual as it is about caffeine addiction. There's a reason that warm showers in the morning wake you up and invigorate you. Plus coffee is delicious.

opportune2• 2 years ago

For people with high daily intake it’s not so much that they want to get “high” on coffee to enjoy the conversation, as it is that their brain is in acute caffeine withdrawal and they will feel so shitty with coffee that they won’t be able to participate in conversation very well.

slibhb• 2 years ago

I also enjoyed the ritual of coffee but stopped about a year ago due to sleep issues and anxiety.

As far as anxiety goes, I found it was a question of baseline. I'm normally even-keeled to a fault. But at that time, I was anxious (due to life circumstances) and coffee pushed me over the edge.

Sleep definitely improved and for that reason I don't think I'll ever restart caffeinated coffee. I may start looking around for good decaf beans at some point (if they exist).

rd• 2 years ago

Simon, you also live one of the most idyllic, picturesque lives possible. If I lived in rural NH with my wife and kids, I too would love the coffee ritual.

bluecheese4523• 2 years ago

I love coffee, but too much and I get anxiety. Always drink it black, never any sugar/milk/cream.

licebmi__at__• 2 years ago

I don’t drink coffee as it doesn’t sit well in my stomach, but the thing is, I’ve never felt like coffee does anything for me. I can drink a cup of really caffeinated coffee and drink without any issue and even sometimes the warm beverage actually helps me fall sleep.

But you know what triggers tachycardia and rushing feeling? Corn based food like tortilla, which is really ironic as I’m mexican.

karaterobot• 2 years ago

I'm not writing a philosophical treatise here. I'm not writing a lawsuit to take all coffee lovers to court. And I'm definitely not writing a scientific review... What I'm sharing is the minority perspective.

If you're not mounting an honest case against caffeine, don't call your article The Case Against Caffeine. If your evidence is cherry-picked, as you admit it is, it's disingenuous to have a section called The Science Of Caffeine-Induced Anxiety.

mindslight• 2 years ago

I had a hard time reading this article as the author kept coming back to all these "day 1" anecdotes. Quitting caffeine cold turkey, I go through about 2-3 weeks of withdrawal. The first few days really aren't bad, just a bit groggy and my executive function is a lot less imperative. It's after that the real symptoms set in - extreme lethargy, nausea, and suicidal thoughts (things like "I could avoid having to get up off the couch if I were dead". Otherwise completely out of character for me, so it's very clearly the withdrawal speaking).

I think the second week is generally the worst, but I always forget until I'm there. After I'm through the withdrawal I do feel that I'm better balanced. Of course then eventually there's something in my life I just need to push through, so I start down the path of doing a little caffeine, then a little more the next day to make up for that, etc. I liken it to a high interest loan, and the only way I've found to pay off being the aforementioned cold turkey.

What really weirds me out is people who talk as if caffeine is not a psychoactive drug. You mention to a doctor that you're currently on 300mg/day of caffeine and they look at you like you have three heads for bringing this up. I don't know if it's people's own cognitive dissonance from enjoying "coffee" but programmed with "drugs are bad", or if caffeine really just affects me more than the average person, or what.

devmor• 2 years ago

I have a strong belief that the vast majority of writings like this could be replaced with the sentence: “If doing something makes you feel worse, you should stop doing it.”

dreamcompiler• 2 years ago

Unless you have ADHD physiology, in which case caffeine in small amounts can be almost like a narcotic. Everybody is different; ask your doctor.

secretsatan• 2 years ago

I never used to drink coffee, just now I'm thinking it might just have been that it becqme easier to get decent coffee at some point, when I was younger, coffee granules were standard and I never really liked it. I think someone got me a drip coffee machine and I quite liked it.

I quickly picked up on too much of it affecting my sleep though, I guess i had a decent baseline to compare to. so I quickly limited it to just having one in the morning workdays, and occasionally one on weekends. I still have days where I don't drink any, and I don't notice any difference in sleep.

kalyantm• 2 years ago

As someone who works out regularly and tries my best to have healthy meals, one underrated benefit from caffiene (especially coffee) is that it helps me suppress my diet and fast for much longer! I have a couple of coffees in the morning and it helps me fast till 1pm!

superb-owl• 2 years ago

Zan also recently wrote about how to break habits (like caffeine): https://zantafakari.substack.com/p/how-to-tame-your-impulsiv...

bernardlunn• 2 years ago

I am in day 4 of tapering off, so this is only anecdotal but as each person is different anecdotal is ok. Try it and see. At the moment, with tiny amounts of caffeine my pm is better ie more even energy. I recognize addiction in some of the most virulent anti poster pro caffeine comments.

evw• 2 years ago

I recently started tracking my caffeine intake after discovering this small app called HiCoffee on someone’s blog. It has a neat curve of how much caffeine is left in your body as the day progresses and how much will be left at bedtime. It made me more aware of how much caffeine is in different drinks. Philz has a lot! But now I can work around that with timing and limiting drinking other things.

weweersdfsd• 2 years ago

I recommend trying Yerba Mate as an alternative to coffee. At least for me it gives a way more balanced, long-lasting energy, rather than coffee which gives me a huge spike and then goes down fast & makes me anxious. Online I've seen lots of people have very similar experiences with it.

swah• 2 years ago

I'm from the Brazilian south and tbh, a few times I prepared mate with the tea from Argentina and got the shakes just like I had 5 espressos. I think too much water was in contact with the tea, which in this version is too fine and maybe I just ingested a lot.

I'd say the regular process of mate drinking is like having a progressively dilluted coffee/tea , so I expect it to be mild...

milkytron• 2 years ago

Most people are discussing coffee, but green tea isn't really mentioned. I started limiting my coffee intake maybe 7 years ago and switched to mostly green tea, except for certain occasions.

Green tea doesn't nearly impact my sleep as much, I find it easier to stay hydrated, it doesn't give me jitters but a more calming focus, and it's a lot easier to take the caffeine in slowly, because each cup of genmaicha is maybe 20-30mg of caffeine. A pot is maybe equal to one or two cups of coffee, but with a lot more water, and a steadier slower onset.

shin_lao• 2 years ago

One data point:

A couple of years ago, I went coffee-free for one month, just to see what it would do to me.

Sucked. I like coffee for the sake of coffee. But was happy to see "I could do it".

Could not observe any significant change in my life. Maybe felt a little less "up". I ended the experiment after one month.

I don't drink/do drugs (besides coffee).

hardlianotion• 2 years ago

Never heard tell of using caffeine to help them keep their bowels regular. If you're in that situation, might be worth just drinking more water - it has a significant effect on constipation.

jp57• 2 years ago

I think this is a good context to remind people that there isn't One True Way™ when it comes to our bodies, metabolisms, brains, etc.

I quite believe that for many people using a lot of caffeine increases their anxiety and reduces their ability to function. I'm not one of those people. I use quite a lot of caffeine and have very little anxiety and no trouble sleeping. I am, if anything, anti-anxious. I suspect my personality type would make a great fighter pilot or air-traffic controller. (I myself would probably be bad at both those jobs, but not because of the anxiety.)

So I'd say IF you have chronic anxiety problems or you are having sleep problems, and you use a lot of caffeine, it's probably worth quitting or cutting down the caffeine to see if that helps.

irongeek• 2 years ago

If you have anxiety and cannot sleep, of course caffeine is probably not going to help. Unless I missed it, he never addresses his bowel issue.

thenoblesunfish• 2 years ago

I find things like this very tempting. I've tinkered for years with caffeine intake. (I love the effect on my brain, but the half life is looong for me). However, after a while you start to notice the pattern that you'd rather tinker with caffeine than face your real problems.

chankstein38• 2 years ago

Facts. I avoid caffeine as much as possible. I still only sleep 5-6hrs/night (circumstance) but I have way more energy throughout the day than caffeine ever gave me. Now adays I'm so sensitive to it that a Strawberry Dragonfruit Refresher from Dunkin will leave me feeling a body anxiety without the brain anxiety. I sit there after drinking one feeling just uncomfortable and cold. Sometimes my palms sweat.

It's just not fun. I'm glad I quit caffeine!

throwaway89988• 2 years ago

I might be able to add several points to this discussion: - For me, caffeine has really bad impact on my sleep quality, and it is an accumulative effect: After being abstinent for 1-2 weeks, I can drink 2 cups of coffee in the morning, and I will have good sleep. After 1-3 days of daily 2 cups of coffee, my sleep quality goes down - Most research about safety of coffee is done with young, healthy adults w/o any medical preconditions. Which translates to, everything found in the research is objectively true, still it totally cannot apply to your, your health and life circumstances - Finally, I observe people around me which can tolerate higher amounts of caffeine w/o any side effects. To the best of my knowledge there are very individual tolerance levels for caffeine and also very individual metabolization speeds

tldr: - caffeine is known to increase anxiety, heart rate and disturb sleep - YMMV and it even might vary depending on your age, phase of life, other activities - if you observe feeling stressed, problems with sleeping or winding down, try to avoid caffeine/alcohol/etc. for a few weeks and observe if you feel better

time0ut• 2 years ago

I drink coffee all day most days starting from 6 or 7 AM until 6 or 7 PM depending on the day. I am able to fall asleep within a few minutes every night without issue and typically have deep vivid dreams. Waking up is a bit tough though. I tend to semi-snooze as I sip my first cup or two over a 30 minute period. That is, unless I have a hard time commitment, in which case I can force myself to move faster.

Rather than dismiss the article, it makes me wonder how much better my life would be without caffeine. I think I will try it out and see.

Interestingly, my reaction to alcohol is similar to the one described in the article. Any amount is likely to result in a bad night's sleep and mild to extreme anxiety the next day depending on what and how much I had.

xutopia• 2 years ago

I removed caffeine from my diet during covid. I found a 2% increase in sleep quality using rudimentary software (Sleep cycle) over a period of a year. What I did find was a reduction in anxiety as well.

That said someone close to me was doing the opposite during the pandemic and saw markedly better concentration thanks to caffeine.

I think it depends on people.

loeg4• 2 years ago

If you're drinking coffee as a laxative -- it's not the caffeine, it's the coffee. You can drink decaf for the same effect.

rubicon332• 2 years ago

I started drinking coffee as a freshman in college back in 2006. I forget exactly what the impetus to start was but I'm sure it had something to do with feeling generally tired and unmotivated, something I've struggled with my entire life.

At that time brewing a pot of coffee and drinking 2-3 cups was an incredible buzz. I'm not sure if my actual productivity was much higher (I think it was) but I certainly FELT a lot better.

Unfortunately around that time I developed a panic attack disorder. Ludicrous as it might sound to you now, I did not realize in the moment that it could have been related to coffee. I was 19 and barely in touch with my feelings and sense of self. I was essentially just bumping through life.

Fast forward 17 years later and I'm still drinking coffee. Over those 17 years I have waxed and waned in my quantities and when I would drink it. But suffice it to say that on average, I've probably consumed a Venti coffee every day for 17 years.

I did stop ONCE for 35 days about 7 years ago and didn't feel like I noticed any difference. Again though, I wasn't as aware of my mental state as I am now and it would have been easy for benefits to go unnoticed as I lost the buzz and energy that coffee brings.

I'm now interested in trying going coffee/caffeine free for a few reasons:

• Dreams. I almost never dream, and when I do, they're usually bad/anxious

• Sleep quality. I wake up and usually don't feel pumped or excited for the day. To be fair, I never have even as a kid. But I'd like to wake up feeling more "awake" and excited.

• Teeth. Noticed over the years my teeth have been slowly yellowing. If there's a time to intervene, it was probably 5 years ago but why not now?

• General mood / anxiety. I have a generally high anxiety state but "negative affect" mood disorder. Being anxious AND depressed is kind of a terrible world to live in. Basically don't have the motivation and energy to do much, and when I do anything tend to have a sort of frenetic energy that isn't very productive. This might just be my genetics but I have a theory that at the very least, coffee might be making some of the symptoms worse.

Sammi4• 2 years ago

I drank coffee from age 20 to age 37. I've been coffee free for 2 years now.

I had anxiety from age 20 to age 37. I've just realised I don't remember when my anxiety stopped, but it's been gone for a while now.

Learning to breathe deep down into my lower back has also helped a weird amount. Yes this is a thing. Youtube is full of physio therapists teaching people to breathe deep into your lower back.

404mm• 2 years ago

After many years of drinking coffee (1-2 mugs a day), I had to quit because of high blood pressure. I switched to decaf and I found one I even liked. I was served full coffee at Starbucks instead of decaf couple times, so I figured ok, no more drinking coffee I don’t make myself. The one day I got a new batch delivered from Peet’s and… it wasn’t decaf either. This was the breaking point for me and I quit coffee of any kind.

It took me nearly a year before I started waking up feeling ok and not foggy.

I had never had issues sleeping before. Anxiety hasn’t changed either. But when I read about people writing that they felt great first or second day after quitting, I know it’s a total horse shit. First week or two were absolutely awful.

I have not noticed anything really positive or negative after quitting. Except of the blood pressure that is easier to manage. I still hope I get to go back to coffee one day again lol.

nunez3• 2 years ago

I spontaneously quit caffeine in December when my local coffee roaster produced a decaf single origin that tasted identical to the caffeinated thing. (8oz of decaf coffee contains 7mg of caffeine vs 140mg in caffeinated coffee).

I didn't feel the transformative effects that many blog about, but I definitely felt how tired I _really_ was.

I started napping way more during the day than before, and I'd fall asleep within ten minutes or so on most nights once I hit the bed. (I had been doing CBTi for a week or two up to the time that I quit. I don't have sleep apnea.)

When I drink caffeinated coffee now (extremely rarely), I definitely feel it and definitely crash later in the day as a result. (Caffeine lasts about six hours in your system before its metabolized away.)

What I realized pretty quickly into doing this is that (a) caffeinated coffee is probably the only drug that is nearly universally socially acceptable because (b) nearly everyone is terribly sleep deprived.

It's a real shame that modern (Western) society is designed from the top-down to sweep mental and physical health under the rug in the name of "efficiency". Coffee's just one unfortunate side effect of that.

Also, it is really hard to get good decaf drip coffee but, surprisingly, much easier to get decaf espresso. I'm guessing this is because decaf versions of coffee-based drinks (lattes, flat whites, fraps) is more popular.

therealdrag0• 2 years ago

Decaf beans lose their freshness much faster than caf. I’ve found even with high quality roasters it’s 50/50 chance it arrives stale or it will be within <1 week, so I can’t make the cost pan out. So depressing to get a bag stale on arrival.

So what I do now is

1. Mount Hagen decaf instant coffee. High quality instant I think of as “a different drink” than typically brewed coffee.

2. Cometeer decaf coffee. It’s speciality coffee premade into concentrates. Easily the best “reliable” method of decaf I’ve found. Has more of an espresso flavor to it, but better than any alternative I’ve tried.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK• 2 years ago

I get exactly the same energy boost from drinking any sugary drink in the morning, be it coffee, tea, juice, chocomilk, whatever. I have a theory it's the same for most people, but when they were children, adults drank coffee and they were only allowed to drink chocomilk, that's why they grew up to love coffee :)

The case against caffeine

Related Stories