Ford EV Customers to Gain Access to 12,000 Tesla Superchargers

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/05/25/ford-ev-customers-to-gain-access-to-12-000-tesla-superchargers--.html

by bhauer • 3 years ago

188 311 3 years ago

media.ford.com

photonbucket• 3 years ago

One of the nice things about Teslas is that you get access to the Supercharger network. If more brands have that then I worry that they'll see even higher utilization/crowding.

I hope they build more to accommodate the extra load

duttonw• 3 years ago

There is big $$$ in the charger network in huge handouts from federal government in USA. This will just accelerate the number of chargers being brought online for tesla. Also note that Tesla can still skew the utlliization so that other brands are not notified of available slots at super busy locations.

cavisne2• 3 years ago

Yes and to be eligible for that they needed to support at least 2 automakers. This gets them there without having to retrofit stations with ccs

jillesvangurp• 3 years ago

Not just in the US. The amount of chargers is growing by double digit percentages in many countries. Tesla's network is one of the larger and more mature/reliable ones but they are not the only ones by far and there are many billions being invested in this sector. Utilization of this infrastructure remains fairly low. Most of this is being done in anticipation of massive growth in demand in the next few years.

And while people obsess over fast chargers, the real deal is actually slower charging in parking lots, parking garages, shopping malls etc. Those are a lot cheaper and easier to install and they are similar in cost to what people would install at home. Basically, most of the charging happens at home or chargers like that while the driver is doing something else. A lot of venues try to draw in customers by providing them with charging opportunities and they are fairly cheap to install. There are already quite many of those. Hundreds of thousands of them. They're everywhere.

You use fast chargers at a premium when you have to on longer journeys. Plug it in for 20-30 minutes and continue driving for a few hours. Not that big of a deal.

But slower charging is better for your wallet and battery and if you are parking the car anyway, you might as well plug it in to gain a few extra kwh. It won't delay you or cost you much. For most typical EV drivers, that's all they need most of the time. The vast majority of charging is slow charging and it doesn't involve people waiting for that. On average people only drive maybe 10-20 miles on a typical day. That's only about 4-6kwh. You don't need a fast charger for that. Plug it in at home once every few days or at the mall while you are shopping, having some coffee, at work, etc. There are plenty of opportunities for charging even if you don't have a charger at home.

flutas2• 3 years ago

The big problem right now is Tesla (and others) can’t get the transformers they need (52+ week lead time) to install chargers.

Iirc Tesla has dropped to installing something like only 50 total chargers (not sites, individual chargers) in May due to it.

_ea1k20• 3 years ago

There is a lot of competition for those dollars, and a lot of states won't even dole them out until next year.

It wouldn't be surprising if Tesla doesn't get that much of the money. TBH, Tesla's current V3 offering doesn't quite meet NEVI standards regardless of the connector.

acchow• 3 years ago

Tesla can probably make more profit long term from selling energy than their cars. Otherwise they would DRM the charger network (easy to do since their vehicles are internet-connected)

linsomniac4• 3 years ago

I mean, people have been saying for years: "Tesla isn't a car company, it's an energy company."

stetrain9• 3 years ago

In the US they're opening a new station around once a day, each station has 8, 12, or sometimes dozens of charging stalls. They're on track to double the current network in around 5 years assuming no further acceleration in installations.

https://supercharge.info/changes

msh2• 3 years ago

In my country (denmark) Tesla have opened up most of their chargers to other brands, I have not see any negative effects.

_ea1k20• 3 years ago

In some areas, Tesla has had issues getting sites to partner with them, due to the exclusivity. Having more manufacturers onboard helps them to get more site hosts onboard.

Its probably a net benefit for them, given how quickly they are willing to roll out sites when suitable options are available to them.

electrondood6• 3 years ago

Software automatically routes you to the least busy local supercharger, and they're engaged in massive (further) expansion of superchargers.

King-Aaron3• 3 years ago

With this change, it feels like even though Tesla may be overtaken by the rest of the automotive industry on cars themselves, they seem to have cemented their place as the eventual leader in consumer filling stations.

faeriechangling• 3 years ago

Sounds like the perfect legacy for Elon Musk to have once he goes for broke and his other ventures are forgotten. The Supercharger guy.

jojobas3• 3 years ago

Is there much investment required to set up a charging station? There is a requirement of be HV capacity sure, but it would seem some transformers and power electronics is not as expensive as burying fuel tanks underground.

King-Aaron3• 3 years ago

I'm honestly not entirely sure, but I don't imagine it's a cheap investment.

I just did a quick google and this site mentions:

Hardware costs for a Public DC electric vehicle charging station are very expensive ranging from between $40,000-$100,000 per charging station.

and

In addition to high hardware costs, installation can also be very expensive given the frequent need to install a 480V transformer, upgrade the electrical supply as well as the permitting and increased labor time needed for the project. Installation costs would likely range from between $15,000-$60,000 depending on the specific nature of the project.

https://evse.com.au/blog/evchargercost/

Note this an Australian site so it'll be in AUD, and I have no idea on the validity of these numbers. I know at one of our client sites (mining) they recently set up a charging station for vehicles that tipped into the $millions. But apples and oranges in that regard.

iknowstuff3• 3 years ago

Companies couldn’t apply for more than 70% of the cost of the chargers up to $150,000 per charger, and Forbes reports that Tesla was asking for only ~$30,000 per charger versus the full $150,000 for most applicants:

https://electrek.co/2022/04/15/tesla-cost-deploy-supercharge...

simonebrunozzi• 3 years ago

The problem is not the station, it's the electric network. It currently would not support too many stations.

msh2• 3 years ago

A single charging station is not really competitive. Its the network of stations and the integrated software (so you can see in your car navigation if a charger is busy for example).

pmorici3• 3 years ago

It was revealed today that the Tesla Model Y took the place of Toyota Corolla as the number one selling vehicle world wide. Tesla is the one doing the over taking.

mschuster913• 3 years ago

Wait until the Chinese manufacturers (BYD and friends) catch up - they've been growing immensely over the last few years, and in contrast to Tesla or the legacy auto makers, they all have the limitless coffers of the CCP to back their expansion.

Personally I'd be happier if Chinese products artificially subsidized by CCP government funds be slapped with heavy tariffs to counteract that, but I don't believe that it will happen.

[1] https://insideevs.com/news/629273/byd-plugin-car-sales-decem...

electrondood6• 3 years ago

Model Y was the best-selling car in the world last quarter. Even if they end up with "only" 20% market share (see Apple's iPhone), their ruthless dedication to operating leverage ensures that they are making more money per car than all their other competitors combined.

"Competition" has been "coming" for 10 years now. Tesla also want others to succeed. It's why they open-sourced all of their patents.

Tesla already owns all the "gas stations," people just don't realize it yet.

ck2• 3 years ago

Could we reach a point in a decade where it's so cheap in new construction to build parking lots where every spot has a charger?

Stores could encourage visitors vs online shopping by making the charge free after checkout.

kcb• 3 years ago

Level 2 AC charging probably. Level 3 DC 100KW+ fast charging probably not. Fast charging requires quite a bit of high power electronics to convert that grid power into DC. That's why for Tesla Superchargers, the real guts are in big cabinets off to the side.

thrill3• 3 years ago

Absolutely. Eventually we'll have magnetic chargers under every parking space.

FullyFunctional3• 3 years ago

That and flying cars too. Magnetic chargers are far less efficient and highly placement sensitive. They just don't make any sense. A mere gimmick.

seanmcdirmid4• 3 years ago

wireless charging is too inefficient. It might work for your garage, but it would be a huge suck at a grocery store unless power was really cheap.

stetrain9• 3 years ago

If every residential and office parking lot had level 2 AC chargers (much cheaper than level 3 DC fast chargers) at every spot, that would cover most charging needs.

Adding slow chargers at places people aren't going to spend hours seems mostly pointless.

Building DC fast chargers along travel routes or in places people might spend 30-45min in their weekly routine (grocery stores etc.) makes sense too, but these are also more expensive to install and operate.

cmrdporcupine2• 3 years ago

TBH even L1 120v/12amp at a work parking spot is often good enough to get a charge to recoop the km spent getting to&from the office. A full 3kw or 6kw L2 charge will be wasted for many people for most of the day, unless you enforce people rotating out of spots. Which from my experience is a real PITA.

wmf• 3 years ago

Bah, we need CCS solidarity to improve that network for everyone, not EV makers defecting to the Tesla connector.

Also the "North American Charging Standard" is revisionist doublespeak.

frumper3• 3 years ago

We need a standard, but why CCS and not the Tesla one? One of those plugs has a network of great chargers, the other does not.

resolutebat2• 3 years ago

The entire rest of the world, including Teslas outside the US, use CCS. (Yes, CHAdeMO still exists, but even the Japanese are giving up on it.)

The only reason Tesla uses NACS in the US is that CCS did not exist at the time they started rolling out the Supercharger network.

rchowe• 3 years ago

I like that the Tesla connector is smaller than J1772 or CCS. Since DC fast charging is still a pretty new technology, if companies were required to defer to a standard we would still have giant CHAdeMO connectors.

I don't think we should be surprised that the company that brought us "Autopilot" chose to market its proprietary connector as the "North American Charging Standard". Marketing-wise, I think the name is pretty good, though it is cringe-worthy revisionist doublespeak.

MattRix• 3 years ago

I don’t see how it’s doublespeak, they only started calling it that after opening it up for everyone to use. And it IS the most common charging standard in North America by far, both in terms of number of cars and number of chargers.

KerrAvon2• 3 years ago

I’m not an EV owner yet, but CCS looks like a monstrosity compared to NACS.

pmorici3• 3 years ago

CCS is a total turd no doubt.

stetrain9• 3 years ago

NACS is the Tesla physical connector, plus a new 1000V capable revision, using the CCS communication and billing protocols.

pmorici3• 3 years ago

CCS is inferior it’s a huge clunky connector with no performance benefit over NACS.

cbm-vic-20• 3 years ago

And don't forget the little prayer you have to say beforehand to increase the chances that the thing actually starts charging, rather than getting some dreaded "communication error" or something.

The user experience for CCS sucks. You should be able to enter payment information into the car, which it would exchange with the charger so you could just pull up, plug in and walk away, without having to fuck around with NFC taps or custom apps for five minutes before you can actually start charging.

wilg10• 3 years ago

I mean either one would be fine when the transition is done, since they’re both now open standards.

WorldMaker3• 3 years ago

They renamed it that when they pushed into the IEC standards process (the same standards body in charge of CCS standards), so it isn't entirely doublespeak, but a clear sign of intent for the standard.

candiddevmike• 3 years ago

As a non-EV owner, how much do charging stations cost typically? What's the price of a "fill up"?

PaulMest• 3 years ago

I rarely have to use Superchargers because I have charging at home. But when I do, it's about $25 for an 80% top up (e.g. going from 10% -> 90%) in my Model Y.

Just looked it up: $0.45/kWh the last 4 times at Tesla Superchargers in California.

conk3• 3 years ago

About 50 cents per kWh at something like a supercharger. Most EVs get around 3 miles per kWh. So 300 miles of charging is about 100 kWh or $50.

conk3• 3 years ago

Charging at home is typically cheaper. Around 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost of a public charger. There are also some free public chargers but they are typically slower charge around 6kW and are limited to an hour or 2.

Armisael16• 3 years ago

Depends strongly on the area. I’ve never seen any above 41c/kWh, and one of my local chargers does 13c/kWh after 8pm.

p1mrx• 3 years ago

For one example, Electrify America is $4/month + $0.36/kWh. (You can pay the $4 and immediately cancel, before a road trip.)

Assuming 4 miles/kWh, that's $36 to drive 400 miles. Charging at home cuts the cost roughly in half. These numbers vary depending on location.

warble• 3 years ago

For a fast charge I see from $0.20 to $0.35 usually. I don't usually do a full charge, maybe 60% or so, so like $15 to $20.

blindriver4• 3 years ago

In the Bay Area, during most daylight hours its around $0.50/kWh, but I've seen it at 0.60 sometimes.

aaronblohowiak• 3 years ago

depends on time of day and local electricity rates. most of your charging will be at home which is much cheaper than supercharges.

In general, the cost of charging a Tesla is more than 3 times cheaper per mile than the cost of fueling a gas-powered car (4.56 cents per mile compared to approximately 13.73 cents per mile for gas vehicles). from: https://news.energysage.com/tesla-charging-cost-vs-gas/

a different take: >It depends on what you are comparing it to gas wise. In my area, approximate numbers are 11 cents a kWh at home, 28 cent at a SC. I will get roughly 3 miles to the kWh so a mile costs me 9 cents if I SC. Gas is $3.30 a gallon so my car would need to get 36 miles to the gallon or better to compete with SC'ing.

from: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/comments/stbpfb/comment...

meetingthrower3• 3 years ago

Wow - never done the math. My home rate is 30 cents a KWh (in NH). So each mile is 10 cents. So let's compare to Prius at say 50mpg. Breakeven gas cost is then $5 for it to cost 10 cents per mile. Seems like a Prius is actually cheaper per mile?

dhagberg• 3 years ago

Most DC fast charging rates are about 2x to 3x the local electric rate per kWh, though stations vary quite a bit based on other factors. Here in Colorado, my home power is about $0.125/kWh "normal" rate putting supercharger rates at $0.25 to $0.50/kWh. If I charge my Model 3 Midrange battery (62kWh) capacity from 10 to 80% (typical road trip percentages to minimize charge time) that would be somewhere between $10-15.

95% of the time I'm charging at home and on a net-metering Solar plan, so really only paying those $0.12/kWh rates in the dark winter months, basically charging for "free" off solar once we hit the equinox.

Booleans2• 3 years ago

I'm a clear outlier but my apartment is near charging stations where I can charge for free. I just hit 700 miles on my new Bolt EUV and have so far managed to pay nothing for electricity.

But if I did have to pay, I believe my apartment charges $0.30 per kWh. And I get 4.5 miles of range per kWh. So it's $6 to drive 100 miles. Gas is over $4/gallon here so a car that gets 33 mpg would spend over $12 to go 100 miles.

If I was paying $0.125 per kWh like I've seen other people report in this thread then I'd spend $2.50 to go 100 miles.

naijaboiler• 3 years ago

that was not my experience. I rented a model 3. drove it around Boston for 1 day. Paid $16 in charging cost from tesla supercharging station.

$16 in my ICE camry will take me a lot further.

linsomniac4• 3 years ago

If you get a used ~2016 Tesla, the Superchargers are free.

You do have to be a little careful if you want to go that route though, Tesla has pulled free supercharging from some vehicles, and some had the free supercharging limited to just one owner. Also, Tesla is trying to entice people with the free supercharging to give it up, I believe the deal is $5k off a new Tesla if you give up free SC.

shmoe3• 3 years ago

It's not that they remove it, it's that on certain models 2016-later it was sold as no longer being transferable where it originally was.

drewg123• 3 years ago

As an EV owner with home charging, fast charging cost pretty much doesn't matter. The only time I ever use a supercharger is when I'm on a road trip, which happens just a few times a year. The rest of the time, I schedule charging at home for off peak hours. My charging stats for the year from the Tesla app are 96% home, 4% supercharger.

What does matter more than price to me is the speed of the fast charging experience when I'm on a road trip. Tesla is not perfect -- I've been to chargers located in mall parking lots, which are an absolute nightmare in the holiday shopping season. I've been to chargers in airport parking garages, where you need to pay to enter the garage, etc. Most of Tesla's newer locations are better than this (like the ones at Sheetz gas stations just off the highway). But whats a real nightmare for me (and which has never happened to me with Tesla) is most of the chargers being down, or running at severely degraded speeds. This DOES happen with EA. So after hearing terrible charging experiences from friends with CCS cars, I'm pretty much tied to the Tesla supercharger network.

electrondood6• 3 years ago

Depends on timing, but my calculations put it at about $11 at a station, or $56/month overnight at home.

blindriver4• 3 years ago

Complete mistake by Tesla. The superchargers in some areas are already clogged up, if there's a long line to charge it is getting rid of the one market differentiator that Tesla has that most companies wouldn't invest in. The supercharger network is one of the reasons why I stayed with Tesla instead of getting the BMW i4.

asynchronous3• 3 years ago

They didn’t WANT to do this, your government has overreached and forced a private company to do this.

blindriver4• 3 years ago

No, they enticed Tesla with some sort of tax benefits or something. They weren't forced.

comte7092• 3 years ago

Seems like a great result to me.

More government overreach if this is what we get!

absoflutely• 3 years ago

It's not overreach lmao

cguess• 3 years ago

Then I'm glad the EU forced them to open it up. Imagine if you could only fill your ICE with gas from the car manufacturer's filling stations? Vertical integration can help with costs but it also is pure lock-in.

cavisne2• 3 years ago

The situation is even worse as the cable length on the supercharger and the port placement on non Tesla evs means every non Tesla blocks 2 chargers.

Hopefully something ford sorts out when they embed the port in 2025.

wilg10• 3 years ago

The V4 superchargers have a longer cable, though they’re not rolling out yet. The length is challenging because the cable is liquid cooled.

_ea1k20• 3 years ago

Yeah, I hope Ford improves port placement on their next generation models. TBH, the whole industry should have standardized port locations when they did CCS.

The superchargers have short cables, so they are worse, but CCS stations have issues with charger placement too. People often end up parking on the "wrong" side of the charger that they actually use due to weird placement issues.

I've seen a guy with a Taycan reposition his car at least twice to get an EVGo cable to reach. Its a bad situation all around.

makeitdouble2• 3 years ago

Complete mistake by Tesla.

Another way to spell "fuck the people, why should their life get better ?"

Half joking aside, supercharger usage might save Tesla if their vehicles stop selling well enough a few years down the road. People's taste come and go, infra will always be needed.

andsoitis• 3 years ago

fuck the people, why should their life get better

But the lives of many people are getting better and I bet the net effect is positive, even if you as a Tesla driver (like me), now has to wait a little longer.

javchz• 3 years ago

Totally agree, having your own in house Chevron as a backup plan just in case, seems like a smart choice in the long run despite the trade off. Plus gives you a reason to build new stations in markets where your own car sales don't justify it.

clouddrover15• 3 years ago

In Europe you can go ahead and charge your BMW i4 on a Tesla charger. Europe wisely set a common charging standard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ

Incompatible charging infrastructure is a profoundly stupid outcome. All brands of charger must charge all brands of EVs.

It's a mistake to support closed infrastructure. Demand more and better.

giobox• 3 years ago

It's great Europe chose a common standard, but the CCS plug is just a horrendous bit of design by committee IMO. The difference in size alone vs NACS (the new name for the open standard for the Tesla connector being adopted by Ford):

https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/...
In Europe you can go ahead and charge your BMW i4 on a Tesla charger.

You also can in the USA at some Tesla super chargers and new ones going forward, thanks to Tesla's new Magic Dock at the US superchargers (they now support both CCS and NACS). While a common standard would have been nicer, this is a relatively neat solution that lets a single cable work for both standards and provide DC fast charge.

https://insideevs.com/news/657335/tesla-magic-dock-rollout-m...

wilg10• 3 years ago

Not actually true, the standard didn’t work. You cannot charge a non Tesla on European superchargers despite them using CCS2. (Though they are now opening up superchargers to non teslas everywhere)

izacus• 3 years ago

Yeah, but in Europe Tesla now needs to actually compete against a big choice of EV car manufacturers and models. That isn't great for Teslas profits when they actually have competition across the whole market from different brands. Musk stock investors aren't profiting.

jackmott42• 3 years ago

Seems like you are assuming this deal doesn't include investment from Ford to build more stalls.

People are always spreading FUD about Supercharger congestion but the number of superchargers is always increasing at the same time.

jm4• 3 years ago

Agreed. It virtually guarantees I won’t buy another Tesla. My other car is a Ford (ICE) and I like it. This makes a Ford EV an easy decision.

seanmcdirmid4• 3 years ago

The supercharger network is one of the reasons why I stayed with Tesla instead of getting the BMW i4.

I still got the i4, CCS coverage is good enough, but ya, superchargers are pretty common on longer trips. I'm going to do my first roadtrip tomorrow (up to BC for a short holiday), hopefully Electrify America in Bellingham is open without much of a wait.

stetrain9• 3 years ago

Tesla is opening new Supercharger stations in the US, each with 8, 12, or even dozens of connectors, at a rate of around 1 stations per day:

https://supercharge.info

At this rate they'll double the existing number of stations in ~5 years.

I have driven thousands of miles around the east coast and have waited in a line once around 3 years ago.

blindriver4• 3 years ago

The Superchargers in the Bay Area are often full. And now that all Ford EVs can use Superchargers my point is that experience may change for the worse.

impulser_• 3 years ago

I don't think this is a mistake for Tesla. They probably know that the next few years competition is going to get tough for their cars. Everyone is moving to EV.

So how can you make money on this? Be the one providing all them the energy and charging infrastructure. It's a better business than the car themselves and are likely to have less competition due to the fact that car companies aren't going to want to build out the infrastructure themselves.

They still keep a competitive advantage by having their cars have faster charge times due to having the latest charging tech.

clouddrover15• 3 years ago

They still keep a competitive advantage by having their cars have faster charge times due to having the latest charging tech.

Teslas are middle of the pack for charging. Hyundai's E-GMP platform cars for example (Ioniq 5, Ioniq 6, Kia EV6, Genesis GV60) are capable of 10 to 80% in 18 minutes at their fastest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J46mG7I78Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Cil3seCHM

samcheng2• 3 years ago

I remember being worried when Tesla released the Model 3 with a pay-per-kWh scheme. Was that one supercharger by the mall on the way to Tahoe going to be full all the time? Are all of these mass-market sedans going to make me wait?

That did happen a little bit at a few legacy superchargers, but that minor inconvenience was outweighed by the sheer preponderance of additional superchargers built, everywhere. Instead of worrying about the sole charger being full, I can look on the map, and choose among several nearby chargers, each with reasonable meal options.

I hope this happens with Ford. More cars should increase demand for stations, and additional stations increase convenience for everyone.

lettergram• 3 years ago

Why? You already bought the car lol. This is Ford paying Tesla to enable their car use as well. Those stations probably just became some percentage more profitable

electrondood6• 3 years ago

This won't take effect until 2024, Tesla are massively expanding their already massive supercharger network, and the software routes you to the least-busy charger.

This is a huge win for Tesla. They own the "gas stations."

golemiprague• 3 years ago

Why petrol has one interface similar for all cars and electricity has same interface for all buildings but somehow car charging became many different interfaces? They should standardise it the same way they did for charging cables in Europe.

iknowstuff3• 3 years ago

mostly because CCS1 is fucking ridiculous. But also have you ever actually been to a gas station? Have you not seen the three or four nozzles for diesel, pb free 95, 98 and whatever other upsell?

linsomniac4• 3 years ago

L5, L6, NEMA 14-50, NEMA 5-15, NEMA 5-20, NEMA 14-30, NEMA 11-30, just to name the ones I deal with at home and at the office... And that's not dealing with anything terribly esoteric, like 3 phase, generators, or industrial equipment.

Petrol has several interfaces as well: diesel and unleaded are slightly different, and leaded is different again.

eclarkso• 3 years ago

Don't forget unleaded octane ratings!

eimrine• 3 years ago

Any electricity standard is doomed to be endataned (digitalized, certificatenizated, turned to requiring to run some non-free applications in order to use it).

Liquids are too hard to conjunct with data but printer cartridges industry is doing a great research in this direction and who knows, maybe in 100 years from now we are gonna to buy some plastic thing with computers running some proprietary code in order just to refuel your petrol car or tractor.

asynchronous3• 3 years ago

I’m personally pissed at this news, Tesla long ago offered to share their charging port spec with other car manufacturers, and they all told them to pound sand. Nearly a decade later, Congress literally forces Tesla to open up their network because it’s so superior to the competition.

If a Ford F150e takes up two hours charging in a stall that’s designed to charge a Tesla in 15 minutes, there’s gonna be huge delays in certain areas.

KerrAvon2• 3 years ago

Congress didn’t compel this. They passed tax incentives to make it desirable.

simondotau16• 3 years ago

That's literally what compel means (as opposed to require or mandate).

jahewson• 3 years ago

I have a non-Tesla EV and the Ford and Rivian trucks that have now hit the market have ruined public charging. As you say, they hog the space for literally hours when everyone else needs 20mins. I finally gave in and purchased a home charger despite still having a special deal on free public charging.

throw3823423• 3 years ago

In an efficient world, charging costs would have significant time factor to account for opportunity costs. The supercharger network already charges an idle fee if the charger is busy and you don't leave your space when fully charged. The same idea could apply for charging slowly.

conk3• 3 years ago

Other car manufacturers told tesla to pound sand because the conditions of using any of the “open” tesla patents meant you had to forfeit any patent claims against tesla. Which isn’t really sharing your patents, it’s just a negotiation/PR stunt.

pokerhobo4• 3 years ago

It's suicide to have a one-direction patent sharing agreement. The whole idea of patents these days is defensive patents to avoid mutual destruction. That's why patent trolls (companies that buy and hold patents, but don't actual make anything) are so bad for the industry.

stetrain9• 3 years ago

Tesla also actually bothered to put out an actual standard in NACS with spec sheets, 1000V compatibility, and using CCS communication and billing protocols.

The previous "offer" was a patent sharing agreement that I really doubt any major automaker would accept and find themselves beholden to Tesla for their charging connector in perpetuity.

Nobody has forced Tesla to do anything. They don't have to open up anything if they don't want to bid for the public funds for building EV chargers along interstates.

_ea1k20• 3 years ago

I always felt like other makes could negotiate a better deal than that if they found it valuable to do so. It turns out that apparently they can.

It probably helps that Tesla is a mature company now, and such an agreement would likely involve patent sharing on both sides.

Tagbert7• 3 years ago

You might also end up waiting for a Cybertruck to charge.

johnbatch• 3 years ago

“In 2025, Ford will offer next-generation electric vehicles with the North American Charging Standard (NACS) connector built-in, eliminating the need for an adapter to access Tesla Superchargers”

That’s massive that another automaker is adding the Tesla connector. I’d rather Tesla add the CCS connector, but it will be interesting if Tesla uses their charger network access to push other automakers to add the Tesla connector.

breput• 3 years ago

There are already a handful of Superchargers that have a CCS adapter built in[0]. Thanks to US federal money, some locations are already set up to charge both Tesla/NACS cars as well as CCS vehicles[1]. These will expand, but if either Hyundai and/or GM now switches to NACS, CCS is dead in the USA.

The physical layer is easy - mostly just plastic and metal contacts, as well as minor electrical differences. The reliability and payment layer is where Tesla has way outperformed and it will be interesting to see if Ford can support that with their "Ford Pay" system.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=240R6RhLGj0

[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/ev-chargers/how-well-do...

simondotau16• 3 years ago

You are correct though it's slightly more complicated than swapping out the sockets. That's enough to get NACS compatibility, but may not be sufficient for proper compatibility with Tesla's Supercharger network. It assumes the charging port is physically located on the rear left corner (or front right corner) of the vehicle.

If the charging port is on the rear right (or front left) corner, they won't line up correctly with Tesla's stalls.

FullyFunctional3• 3 years ago

If what I read about the non-SC network, then I have to strongly disagree. The SC network is in my experience extremely dependable and fast. I have at most had an issue with (rare) congestion in peak traveling season at a popular stop. I have never been left stranded with all-broken chargers.

cduzz3• 3 years ago

It's my suspicion that it's the difference because of tesla's "all in" view of electric cars -- they need to overcome all potential problem to EV adoption even if there's some theoretical reason not to (IE "GM" never owned gas stations so tesla shouldn't own charging stations).

The other big players in the DC fast charging space, like "Electrify America" seem like textbook "malicious compliance" ; they're exemplifying why you shouldn't own an EV -- "look they're expensive and profoundly unreliable; if you try to drive your EV long distances you'll spend 80 extra hours charging!"

pokerhobo4• 3 years ago

The CCS-1 connector is designed by committee and objectively worse than NACS. NACS is smaller (cheaper to make and less heavy to use), require smaller wires, can support higher wattage. Also, the significant majority of EVs in North America already have NACS and the significant majority of chargers also has NACS. Superchargers are slowly rolling out Magic Dock so that CCS-1 EVs can use Superchargers. I get the hate on Tesla (or more specifically Elon), but NACS is simply better for everyone.

tacticus• 3 years ago

Tesla seems fine using the CCS connector everywhere else in the world.

And CCS is capable of of doing 360Kw of charge (with the current 400V units and a chunk more on any 800V unit) which is a tiny bit more than 250 max on the NACS

vegardx4• 3 years ago

The MCS (Megawatt Charging System) is also designed by a committee and has been adopted by Tesla for the Tesla Semi, so I don't see how this is even a relevant argument. NACS does only support single phase charging, while CCS2 can do 3-phase charging.

The only truthful argument in this discussion is that Tesla already have a huge charging network using their (previously) proprietary connector and automotive makers want to have access to this. NACS use the same signaling protocol as CCS, which is also why you can get away with a pretty dumb adapter.

It has the same physical limitations as any other cable. If you want to deliver high power at low voltage you need thick cables, there's nothing you can do to get around that fact.

CCS Type 2 is rated at 1000V and 400A, or 400kW.

kj4ips3• 3 years ago

It's still patent encumbered[1], NACS just gave the physical specification, and says "use CCS HLS". The Tesla-SC protocol is still a black box. I wonder if this is going to involve a rollout of logical CCS on existing SCs.

[1] Tesla's patent pledge is not even close to a grant and its "good faith" rules almost certainly exclude all current major automakers.

vivegi• 3 years ago

Good. EV charging infra should be a utility. This move by Ford is a step in the right direction that increases the network effect for the charging infra.

resolutebat2• 3 years ago

Letting Ford use the Tesla charging network is fine, but forcing Ford to adopt NACS is a major step in the wrong direction. The entire rest of the world has converged on CCS, including current Tesla vehicles outside the US, and even Japanese manufacturers have adopted CCS and pretty much given up on CHAdeMO. But nope, instead of taking this opportunity to standardize, Tesla has now guaranteed that at least two incompatible standards will continue to duke it out for years to come in US.

pokerhobo4• 3 years ago

Tesla did not force Ford to adopt NACS. The announcement is from Ford, not Tesla. Tesla is already opening up Superchargers using Magic Dock for existing CCS-1 EVs. Ford sees the benefit of NACS and simplifying the experience for their customers to the largest charging network. Looks like a win-win to me.

wilg10• 3 years ago

US CCS (1) and European CCS (2) are incompatible anyway so that’s moot. Also China uses neither.

sebazzz• 3 years ago

Also US and European cars are always a little different, even if it is the same model. Take brake and turn signals for instance. There are different regulations, and at that point it is a different SKU anyway.

simondotau16• 3 years ago

This is false. There is no such thing as a "CCS" connector. Europe uses CCS2, which is just as incompatible with CCS1 as NACS is.

dmonitor• 3 years ago

I don’t see the problem in having a different connector in US and EU for cars. If you’re traveling internationally, you’re not bringing your car.

93po5• 3 years ago

Considering the entire interior of front interior has to be flipped for markets, I don't see the big deal in separate modular charging systems to be honest.

WorldMaker3• 3 years ago

To my understanding NACS is now in the same standards track as CCS at the IEC standards body and is intended to replace some of the deliberation over a proposed "v3.0" CCS US standard upgrade that got stalled in various committees. There were some thoughts that the US needed a better connector than the under-adopted CCS1 (which is different from the better adopted EU/Asia CCS2 connector) and considered building a better connector from scratch for the US, but Tesla short-circuited that proposed committee effort by opening NACS directly to the standards body. It hasn't officially been standardized yet, but my understanding is that it will be sooner rather than later.

mvdtnz• 3 years ago

Tesla must be getting desperate to give away a huge competitive advantage. Between this and using BYD batteries they are clearly being forced into some really uncomfortable business relationships.

seanmcdirmid4• 3 years ago

China limits LFP batteries from not being put into cars that aren't made in China (they literally can't export them unless they are in a vehicle), and they have a distinct cost advantage even if they are heavier. Tesla is using those batteries to get the Model 3 there to $30k (which is the limit to qualify for the current subsidies in China).

It is a brilliant move by China: they have the tech, no one else seems to have it, and by not exporting it outside of completed cars, they can get an advantage.

_ea1k20• 3 years ago

If that is true, where do the LFP batteries for US made Model 3 come from?

bilvar• 3 years ago

Copium.

electrondood6• 3 years ago

Selling access to your infrastructure, where you have a monopoly on reliable charging stations, where your entire mission is to 'accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy' is... desperate?

I don't think you're seeing this clearly.

somerandomqaguy• 3 years ago

There was a thread a while ago commenting that 15% of cellphone users in the US don't use a smartphone. Another 3% don't have a cellphone at all. Probably save to assume also that a larger then 0% part of the smartphone population also don't have mobile data plans.

Which begs the question; do Tesla superchargers have the ability of using only a credit card or cash? Is there any plan to?

samcheng2• 3 years ago

You just plug the cable into the car; the system knows the car's VIN and charges the card on file. There is no smartphone required. It's a nice, seamless system compared to the competition.

vel0city3• 3 years ago

How do you manage the card on file? Who is hosting the file?

wilg10• 3 years ago

No and no. But they are opening them to non-Tesla cars by providing an adapter. For this, you pay with your credit card via a smartphone app.

chrisco255• 3 years ago

Seems like they could easily offer some kind of gift card option.

speedgoose• 3 years ago

The population of electric cars drivers without a smartphone must be low enough to ignore them.

martin-adams• 3 years ago

Certainly experiencing the demand for chargers going over capacity in the UK. What is more problematic is that there is no space to effectively queue making it a free for all.

AYBABTME3• 3 years ago

This is a clear eyed, smart move by Ford. Gives a good impression of their trajectory.

For Tesla: other automaker will convert to NACS, rendering existing CCS chargers a relic of the past, leaving alternative charging networks in the dust and requiring massive retooling to come back. This positions Tesla as an energy provider like Shell/Chevron.

Eventually I bet they'll be forced to split out the auto manufacturer from the energy vendor to avoid antitrust problems, but that will be in a while.

mrDmrTmrJ• 3 years ago

Why would they be forced to do that? Assuming that they 1. Charge all customers the same price at each super-charger station. (Prices will vary with time of day and different super-charger charger locations.) 2. They open up their network to everyone voluntarily.

I don't see an argument for self favoring or anti-trust. What am I missing? Why do you think that outcome will happen?

AYBABTME3• 3 years ago

In a world where Tesla is one of the biggest auto manufacturer AND holds a quasi monopoly on vehicle charging, I think there will be a point where governments will want Tesla Auto and Tesla Energy to not be the same, as they'll hold too many pieces of the puzzle.

But that's highly speculative of course, and it's just a possible development in a scenario where Tesla ends up being incredibly successful in the way I describe. Which of course is very arguable, as people have done for years.

akira25014• 3 years ago

This positions Tesla as an energy provider like Shell/Chevron.

And I was worried that the "green revolution" was going to be without rent seeking corporate greed getting involved. Yay?

MrBuddyCasino2• 3 years ago

If there is no reward for making superior products, who will bother making them?

throwaway59592• 3 years ago

And what about people that already own CCS cars?

mathgeek2• 3 years ago

You get an adapter, per the article on Ford’s plan.

manarth• 3 years ago

Adapters?

quintushoratius• 3 years ago

This positions Tesla as an energy provider like Shell/Chevron.

No, this positions Tesla to be an energy middleman. They're not finding and distributing energy, just reselling it at a markup.

pseg1343• 3 years ago

There is a large firey ball in the sky called the sun. Tesla captures its energy using a technology called solar panels.

AYBABTME3• 3 years ago

You call it middleman, I call it platform. Owning the platform everyone uses for charging their car is not a bad place to be. Add to this that they're working on including house solar+batteries into a national smart grid system, and they're producing their own large scale energy storage and generation technology... they're positioning themselves to be a major player in the energy industry.

fma• 3 years ago

It I'm reading this correctly they aren't really gaining access but just future models will default to NACS?

They already have access today, via an adapter?

DennisP• 3 years ago

Tesla has only made those adapters available at a few of their superchargers. In this deal, they're providing adapters to Ford, to be included with any EVs they sell.

Tesla will develop an adapter that will be provided to customers who buy any of Ford’s EVs, including the F-150 Lightning truck, Mustang Mach-E, and E-Transit delivery van.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/25/23737896/ford-tesla-ev-fa...

x3874• 3 years ago

Current Tesla owners will be happy to know that they have to share their waiting lines now with even more people.

_ea1k20• 3 years ago

Not a big issue, tbh. Tesla is expanding their footprint faster than the rest of the industry combined. When they have capacity issues, they fix them, sometimes with really incredible speed.

Meanwhile, we've got states saying that they will deploy their first NEVI installations late next year. But the lines at CCS stations already exist!

brianwawok5• 3 years ago

0 lines in the Midwest. Have 50k miles on my Tesla and literally had to wait 1 time to charge while visiting FL.

They can for sure build up Cali and catch up to demand. It’s a solvable problem. The fact they just work is so huge.

natch3• 3 years ago

0 lines in California as well. They are adding a ridiculous amount of capacity. Of course people are buying more cars too so they have to keep adding capacity even beyond what they have now.

andruby2• 3 years ago

More users of the chargers → more revenue for Tesla → more superchargers in more locations → less waiting time

moreover, in the EU non-Tesla's pay a higher price per kWh, I assume this is the same in the US? This would give Tesla even more resources to expand faster.

Tesla superchargers are a lot more reliable and easier to use than the alternative fast-chargers. So I'm happy that they opened up and will expand faster.

1970-01-013• 3 years ago

Ford is the 3rd biggest EV company in the US. The start-ups (Lucid, Rivian, Canoo, etc.) will hold meetings to discuss this change. Switching to NACS could be the difference between their success or slow failure. GM will be GM and simply call this a big mistake until EV sales are affected.

_ea1k20• 3 years ago

I think Ford will pull into second by the end of the year. GM is in second, but as you pointed out, GM is really slow.

brianwawok5• 3 years ago

As far as I can tell Ford is still losing money on every EV sold (while Tesla is making 20% margin). Not sure how much they can grow if they can’t flip to profitable.

agloe_dreams3• 3 years ago

GM is downright handing it to them. They just killed the Bolt, their only volume model right now.

m463• 3 years ago

2023Q1 tesla sold 422k vehicles, and I think GM sold 20k, but it's hard to get sales figures

1970-01-013• 3 years ago

Just 6 months ago:

Opening the North American charging standard

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33564558

helsinki• 3 years ago

Oh, great. I can't wait to go to charge my tesla and be forced to wait for 30 Ford Focus and Mustang to finish up their charge.

Ford EV Customers to Gain Access to 12,000 Tesla Superchargers

Related Stories