Windows 11: a spyware machine out of users' control

https://www.techspot.com/news/97535-windows-11-spyware-machine-out-users-control.html

by jlpcsl • 3 years ago

485 340 3 years ago

Meh. This is a content-less article, that seems to be exclusively about how many DNS requests Windows 11 makes on first boot.

Absolutely nothing on what data is being sent, if any, or why.

nehal3m3• 3 years ago

It’d be great if the OS told you the how and why in plain English.

pathartl• 3 years ago

While I realize it's not a solution to the issue you raised, it's worth pointing out that Microsoft does a decent* job of documenting the types of telemetry taken across the Windows platform: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/configure-...

* When I say decent, I mean this absolutely should be the bare minimum, but this type of thing feels rare in the industry.

MikusR• 3 years ago

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/diagnostic...

wkat42428• 3 years ago

It'd be even better if it allowed us to turn it off completely.

bakugo4• 3 years ago

Absolutely nothing on what data is being sent, if any, or why.

Might have something to do with the fact that the data is almost certainly encrypted and the OS is closed source.

If I install a piece of software and it immediately connects to 20 random servers without asking or even telling me, for purposes other than to directly provide advertised features, I'm going to assume that those connections are being used to extract my personal data and the burden of proof is on the developer to prove otherwise.

DethNinja• 3 years ago

Wouldn’t transparent TLS with self signed certificates solve this problem? I’ll definitely try this in couple of weeks but I can’t be the only person to try this to uncover exact data that is being sent via Windows telemetrics.

Another alternative would be remote debugging the kernel and hooking into some of the undocumented API calls but that would take lots of effort.

horsawlarway5• 3 years ago

Look - I'm not really a Windows fan (almost exclusively on linux these days) but they ARE providing advertised features.

Like - honestly - the machine is a fresh install of Windows, what exactly is the data you think is being exfiltrated? In most cases... there's just nothing there.

At best, someone now knows that ip x.x.x.x is running windows version y.y.y.y, and possibly that the user account is z. And honestly - all of those pieces of information are actually reasonable to send when providing advertised features (such as weather data in widgets, or local news).

There's literally just nothing else on the device to grab yet... There's no browsing data, there's no app usage data, there's no documents generated.

It's a blank fucking OS outside of the MS account you signed on with.

So again - without talking about the actual data in the requests (and not just a dns record...) this isn't really a helpful conversation to have.

user39393822• 3 years ago

what data is being sent, if any

Obviously the Windows crapware isn't doing explicit DNS lookups for no reason, they're implicit because it's making requests.

jmclnx• 3 years ago

That could be because Microsoft encrypts the data, I would be shocked if the data being sent was not encrypted.

To to me, this means M/S could be grabbing everything and sending it across, fo example browser history, files accessed, info typed into your edge browser, etc. No way to tell and no way to dispute this except for trusting M/S.

So, in reality, people should dump all M/S products.

phendrenad25• 3 years ago

Maybe it's encrypted, or maybe the data they're sending is not noteworthy and you're just assuming the worst?

throw10920• 3 years ago

Is it just me, or is the original source actually https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT4vDfA_4NI? It doesn't seem like the article provides much extra value over it...

amatecha7• 3 years ago

The article definitely provides extra value: I was able to get the gist of the stuff without having to watch a video :)

efreak4• 3 years ago

Wait, there's actually someone else out there that likes reading articles over watching videos? I thought I was alone here.

IG_Semmelweiss4• 3 years ago

Is there a tried and true instruction to prevent windows 11 from running updater at all?

I keep losing sensitive work because of the windows penchant to reboot at times when im not at the PC, causing my tabs and docs to be lost.

Edit: yes im aware we need security patches but id lile those on demand, not randonly

smileybarry10• 3 years ago

Under Settings > Accounts > Sign-in Options > enable "Automatically save my restartable apps and restart them when I sign back in". Most apps since Windows 7 register their current documents, workspace, etc. with Windows when they launch, and can then be reopened on next boot with the same context. If they don't support that API, Windows will just remember the command line and relaunch it.

I use this for a work computer that I shut down daily and it restores everything I had open: browser windows & tabs, email, Visual Studio solutions, PyCharm workspaces, Windows Explorer windows, Slack, etc. And update restarts use this mechanism specifically.

IG_Semmelweiss4• 3 years ago

This is helpful. Thank you.

Now here is to hope That the next "fix" from windows does not push an update that consistent blue screens my PC [1] which is why i prefer to reject all patches.

[1]https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/window...

ThrowawayR2• 3 years ago

Run the Windows update checker manually on a periodic basis, same as you would on a Linux server, and you will never be caught by forced reboots or patches being downloaded at inconvenient times.

bakugo4• 3 years ago

I don't want to do X but I'm being forced to, how do I avoid this?
Just do X yourself

This isn't helpful in the slightest.

sccxy• 3 years ago

Just use "Pause updates for X days".

Install updates once a month and Windows does not have to do it "randomly".

bakugo4• 3 years ago

If you have a Pro or Enterprise SKU you should be able to disable automatic updates by messing with Group Policy (Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > Windows Update). Changing the "configure automatic updates" policy should be enough but you might have to change others, just go through them and read the descriptions.

andai• 3 years ago

I recently used Privatezilla to disable automatic updates. Not sure if the same approach works on Windows 11, but you might find the relevant registry keys mentioned in the code helpful: https://github.com/builtbybel/privatezilla/blob/master/src/P...

eastbound• 3 years ago

Is there a tried and true instruction to (…)? I keep losing sensitive work because of the Windows penchant

2023, the year of Linux on the desktop ?

derefr4• 3 years ago

There are "active" threat classes (worms, and human attackers explicitly running intrusion exploits) that can infect your computer while it is sitting idle, you know.

What would you prefer: coming back to find your computer has joined a botnet while you were gone; or coming back to find your computer was restarted while you were gone, to avoid joining a botnet?

jacquesm• 3 years ago

I would prefer to find it as I left it. And in 45 years of using computers this has always been the case. But then againg, I haven't used windows in more than two decades now, other than a single box here that talks to an older mixer and that machine doesn't even have an internet connection, I treat it as part of the mixer.

layer8• 3 years ago

Did you try Reboot Blocker [0]? It works by constantly rotating the Active Hours configuration so that the current time is always within active hours, thus delaying Windows Update restarts indefinitely. It works reliably on Windows 10, but I couldn’t find confirmation for Windows 11.

[0] https://udse.de/reboot-blocker/

IG_Semmelweiss4• 3 years ago

Oh this is a very creative solution. I will try to find a WIN 11 version - thank you so much!

kens• 3 years ago

Forced Windows updates caused me no end of problems too. I'd run a simulation overnight and discover Windows had rebooted on its own and I lost all my results. Or I wanted to show a movie at a birthday party but Windows decided it had to spend an hour updating.

I followed various instructions to disable automatic updates, and I'm someone who generally keeps things up to date, but after the third time of Windows updates ruining things, I gave up and switched to a MacBook. With Windows it seems like updating is its primary task and running applications is secondary to. There's probably someone at Microsoft who shows weekly graphs of Windows updates, and their bonus depends on the graph continuing up and to the right, so they ram through whatever update features are necessary without thinking of the customer experience.

goldfeld• 3 years ago

You see, it's Microsoft's point of view that no longer we own a system and are the administrative users of it, but Microsoft by its ClippyAI uses us as a system for their needs and they are the administrative users of their lowly subjects.

The fact that you watch videos, open programs and earn a living and lay out files on the PC is merely collateral, they see it's a necessary accident to keep you on the line and plug into your essence to try to drain it.

Let's repurpose PC to mean either Piece of Crap or Post-Computers depending on how we react to the new establishment.

vmoore2• 3 years ago

Is there a tried and true instruction to prevent windows 11 from running updater at all?

Check out this:

https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-update-blocker-v1-7/

IG_Semmelweiss4• 3 years ago

I'm going to try this. Looks easy enough to implement. I'm leaving the PC on all night tonight.

Genuinely curious if this will result in a successful block, a failed block....or a BSOD ? I'll report back.

Crossing fingers - Thanks you!

wishfish• 3 years ago

I haven't used 11 yet. When I was on 10, there was a group policy that would prevent automatic updates & restarts. The OS would check regularly for updates but wouldn't automatically download them.

If this is still available in 11, that's your best solution.

t0bia_s5• 3 years ago

simplewall let you completely block connection to update servers.

https://www.henrypp.org/product/simplewall

Also it is probably best opensource firewall for Windows out there. Portmaster from Stafin has similar approach but not good for managing firewall rules.

heywherelogingo• 3 years ago

I couldn't even install windows 11 - it had some issue with my account, couldn't log in. A couple of hours wasted just trying to log in... no.

grugagag3• 3 years ago

Blessing in disguise

Someone12343• 3 years ago

This whole article is just a description of this YouTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT4vDfA_4NI

This video is substance-less, they hooked up Wireshark, watched packets fly past, most of which were DNS lookups, then described domains as if that is meaningful in itself. Most of the traffic is generated by Windows 11 widgets[0], which I'd suggest disabling either way.

Do I like what Microsoft is doing with Windows 11? Actually, no, I'm pretty unhappy with it. But I hate how lazy most of these critiques are. They do so much irrefutably bad stuff, this is the best you can come up with?

[0] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/stay-up-to-date-...

zamalek3• 3 years ago

then described domains as if that is meaningful in itself

It would be one thing if it was all MSFT domains, but scorecardresearch.com is pretty terrifying from a data sovereignty perspective.

which I'd suggest disabling either way.

This isn't alarming because of how it affects tech-savvy users, it's alarming because of how it affects average people.

Someone12343• 3 years ago

The widgets are a [bad] wrapper on bing.com. bing.com uses those analytics products.

Yes, it should be disabled by default, just like a lot of unacceptable practices on Windows 11. Just don't need to shoot a video with Wireshark running and talk through DNS lookups to get to that critique.

moose_man• 3 years ago

Tech community treats Microsoft since Balmer with kids gloves, like it's some sort of non-profit organization for saving the planet.

anthk• 3 years ago

     get https://github.com/stevenblack/hosts

torginus• 3 years ago

Taking the risk of (fairly) being accused of whataboutism - I'm not sure what the alternatives are - Macs are just as brazenly collect date about you in the background to the point that like in Windows, the data collection bogs down the computer so that the user experience suffers noticeably.

I'm also fairly certain even vanilla Android is a privacy nightmare, and when you add in the preinstalled vendor trash, it becomes 1000x worse.

The only option that exists right now afaik is Linux, and in my experience daily driving Linux on a production/development machine is a nightmare.

photoGrant2• 3 years ago

Let's say I'm a politician at a restaurant. I just want to eat. But even without opening the menu, you've had the chef call every person in town to let them know you're here.

It's just, gross.

naikrovek8• 3 years ago

That's not what's happening. that's not even a good analogy.

A better analogy would be this:

let's say I'm a politician at a restaurant. I just want to eat. But, without even opening the menu, the waiter needs to know that I'm there so they can bring the menu to me and greet me. They also bring water in case I am thirsty right now.

BY FAR (if not entirely) this is what Windows does. Do you need updates? Are you an Autopilot machine used in the enterprise? Do any of your installed applications need updates from the Windows Store?

These are all normal things, but people who don't understand how Windows handles these things consider them all spyware. None of them seem to be aware that you can install a telemetry viewer application and see everything sent to Microsoft from your PC if you're so concerned with what is being collected. You can also, from that application, delete the stuff Microsoft has collected about you from that machine. They go straight to "oh I can get views if I complain about Microsoft and sound very offended by it!" So, that's what they do.

It's just annoying.

herbst2• 3 years ago

That said politician still has the choice to not use Windows.

It's more like the politician goes to a huge public event with livestreaming and everyone filming everything and then obviously everyone knows.

I am not defending Microsoft. I just don't get why people would use software they don't like or even trust.

ethbr02• 3 years ago

Windows 11 widgets[0], which I'd suggest disabling either way.

In case you were curious, apparently the full widget removal is via group policy.

gpedit.msc > Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > Widgets > Allow Widgets > {select Disabled} > {restart}

https://www.pdq.com/blog/how-to-remove-widgets-in-windows-11...

Someone12343• 3 years ago

Per your own link, they can be disabled via Settings > Personalization > Taskbar > Widgets.

All setting Local Policies does is force them off and stops the user from re-enabling them in the Settings (which is likely a good default for organizations).

mixmastamyk10• 3 years ago

Is this middlebrow dismissal really the top comment for an important discussion?

Do you really believe the geolocator and marketing pings you didn't ask for are just to say hello and immediately forgotten?

ormax32• 3 years ago

It should be possible to disable many of these connections as documented here:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/manage-con...

autoexec4• 3 years ago

This is good info, but damn is it obnoxious that you'd have to do all of that to keep just some of the spying at bay

kitkat_new2• 3 years ago

is it possible to disable them?

amatecha7• 3 years ago

Yeh, I was skeptical of your comment but I checked the article and video and they are utterly pointless. No substantiation that any 3rd party is actually contacted (other than your ISP for resolving DNS). It would have taken literally seconds to demonstrate actual connections being made. For all I know, this is clickbait/misinformation - the author(s) made it impossible for me to know otherwise.

ChuckMcM• 3 years ago

I remember when connecting Windows XP to the Internet resulted in a compromised system in < 90 seconds. That said, I agree it is a shallow look at things, I do bring up Windows machines on a network that white lists windows update servers and denies everything else. Yes it complains "The internet is unreliable" (not going to lie, it isn't Microsoft :-)).

mrmuagi• 3 years ago

DNS lookups are themselves alarming no? Why would you resolve a hostname and not, like, use that IP for something? Maybe some argument of pre-emptive hostname resolution but even in Ubunutu you can turn off the chatty background OS DNS resolutions.

npteljes5• 3 years ago

I agree with you. I like it when people rip the thing to shreds for valid reasons, like this article:

https://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-11-sucks.html

Excellent articles on Linux and other systems too, by the way, if you have the time.

BirAdam• 3 years ago

I wish that the ameliorated.info project were producing up-to-date scripts for win10 and win11. Personally, I refuse to run Windows because I find it incredibly annoying. I do not believe that Redmond is doing anything nefarious to people via their PCs/software other than milking them for cash, but the UI changes I find to be going the wrong direction, the update mechanisms, the ads, etc… are all annoying, and I even find the notification system annoying.

ifyoubuildit• 3 years ago

I've been using linux on my main machine for quite a while now, but I usually keep a windows machine for games (though I hear linux gaming is pretty good these days, so hopefully I can go that route before windows 11 becomes mandatory).

I liked windows 7, but always felt annoyed at being coerced onto more and more disrespectful versions of windows over time. At this point, I wish I had something like a throwaway vm or docker container for anything I need to run in a windows environment, like people use for malware research but more convenient.

fest• 3 years ago

I set up a windows VM proxmox with GPU passthrough for exactly this reason. With parsec for remote access it is very usable even with my less than ideal LTE uplink for the occasional need for Windows.

the_cramer• 3 years ago

Aside some AAA title and rare edge caves, gaming on Linux is quite good. Some tinkering necesary and of course wine, but it works.

Sincerely, a fresh Linux User with not much knowledge.

snuxoll2• 3 years ago

As somebody with a Steam Deck it's seriously impressive what Valve has managed to do with Proton. I didn't catch the memo about the Samsung 980 Pro failure in time and my Windows 10 drive just went readonly on me, and if it weren't for SteamVR not being supported on Linux I'd seriously be considering just...not reinstalling Windows again. Once the day comes that the last few gaming issues I have on Linux go away I will probably let the Windows install rot and daily drive Fedora or Arch again.

suzumer• 3 years ago

Yeah, i agree that linux gaming has become pretty painless, although VR gaming is still a big sore spot. If you want to see if a game runs smoothly with no tinkering, check https://www.protondb.com/. Any game listed platinum will run without tweaks on linux.

aquir• 3 years ago

I wish I could use Linux but a very trivial task of "keep my second screen usable when I close my laptop lid" is apparently too much to ask :( OK, I have a discreet GPU, bit still!! Tried 5 different distros with different window managers, the closest I got was yes you van have the second screen but everything happens with on it with 5 second lag and at 1 FPS

Avicebron• 3 years ago

For what it's worth, I have a lenovo thinkpad and this behavior was somehow baked into it for both windows and linux (ubuntu).

BLKNSLVR• 3 years ago

I had a weird experience in that the second screen(s) (connected via a USB dock) would be laggy if the chosen 'primary' monitor was not the one directly connected to the computer (either built-in monitor for a laptop, or directly connected via HDMI / DisplayPort).

If the primary monitor was one of the two connected to the dock, they would be horribly laggy.

That problem seems to have gone away, but I've changed machines and Linux distributions since then. I think it was with Ubuntu and using a Toshiba Dynadock.

NayamAmarshe3• 3 years ago

the closest I got was yes you van have the second screen but everything happens with on it with 5 second lag and at 1 FPS

Used to happen on my nvidia laptop, you can try filing a complaint. One possible solution is to set the GPU to performance mode in Nvidia XServer settings.

efreak4• 3 years ago

I know there's settings for suspending in logind.conf and also in dconf, but no idea what controls what happens when you close the lid and do nothing, I use my old laptop exclusively through a screen sharing program that keeps the screen off, and it works fine, so it might actually be the graphics driver.

If it's just the CPU scheduler being changed, you could always figure out a way to run your own command when the lid closes, to revert the changes to the way you like it a few seconds after the lid closes.

https://askubuntu.com/a/1140362

jimbobimbo5• 3 years ago

"Using Wireshark to check what a freshly-installed copy of Windows 11 was doing on a brand-new laptop, what they saw was eye-opening to say the least: just after the first boot, Windows 11 was quick to try and reach third-party servers with absolutely no prior user permission or intervention."

I highly doubt that "absolutely no prior user permission or intervention" happened here. Most likely didn't read the EULA on that "freshly-installed copy of Windows 11" or clicked through the whole out-of-the-box experience during the first login without reading what it enables.

nsxwolf2• 3 years ago

Is that really permission? It's that or not use the laptop, right?

jimbobimbo5• 3 years ago

There're other laptop/OS manufacturers that may serve needs of privacy-conscious folks better than Windows laptop. Whether one likes it or not, there's no constitutional right to use this specific laptop/OS combination.

grugagag3• 3 years ago

freshly-installed copy of Windows 11" or clicked through the whole out-of-the-box experience during the first login without reading what it enables.

Isn’t that what the most non tech savvy / common user has to deal with? A mom or pop, a relative perhaps? And if it’s possible to de-junk windows 11 why bother? Who has time for that whack-a-mole game of turning things off and have them back on when the system updates? Again, why bother? Windows 11 doesn’t anything compelling to justify wasting my in the first place

jimbobimbo5• 3 years ago

Then buy another OS/laptop? It's not like there're no other options.

ajmarsh• 3 years ago

There are options.

https://github.com/TheWorldOfPC/Windows11-Debloat-Privacy-Gu...

LinuxBender• 3 years ago

Also O&O's ShutUp10 [1] which also works on Windows 11. It's not as complete as some of the scripts on Github but also only changes things known to not affect the usability of the OS. And it has a happy-clicky UI and prompts the person to make a snapshot first. I can attest to it quieting down the telemetry on W10/11 for my gaming machine. I still play certain games on Windows

These tools should be run after any big patches from Microsoft as they may change settings. ShutUp10 will show a diff of what features were reset.

[1] https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

PrimeMcFly• 3 years ago

Windows 10 is going to be my last windows with how MS is acting.

10 was annoying enough to configure to disable so much cruft, get back a decent startbar, disable all the telemetry etc, and much of it still sucks like not being able to have control over updates.

11 with forcing an account, forcing updates, stupid shit like nerfing the taskbar etc...there is just no need for it anymore.

Games run fine on Linux via proton, or the ones I want to play at least. The rest of my toolchain and app library is all opensource stuff that runs on *nix.

NetBSD or Void Linux with a custom configured AwesomeWM setup here I come.

barbariangrunge• 3 years ago

As a game developer, I’m stuck with windows for the foreseeable future. The major game engines technically work on Linux but the experience isn’t smooth and the companies don’t want to invest in improving it

If they did, I’d switch back to Linux so fast—

I actually really like gnome and miss the interface. It’s a dream for people who never want to touch their mice

Zardoz84• 3 years ago

Godot

Zurrrrr3• 3 years ago

As a game developer I can see how you would be tied. I'm pretty lucky in that my gaming sticks to a few specific games for multiplayer (GTA online, counter-strike, sometimes red alert 2, nrs games) an a few specific AAA titles I want to play for campaigns.

Gnome is pretty nice...I never understood why KDE was so popular with their childish naming scheme and some of the bloat that came in 4. Awesome was a gamechanger for me though, when I realized how easy it was to have a perfect gui, every little details perfectly to my specificaions.

klipklop2• 3 years ago

I do 99% of my PC gaming with a Steam Deck. All the major games I am interested in "just work." If Elden Ring and most/all of my fav indie games work, I don't see why I will need a windows PC ever in the near future.

I was able to get several non-steam games from the early 2000's working as well with Proton.

Likely if more games are built against/for dxvk/proton things will get even easier.

josephcsible4• 3 years ago

The major game engines technically work on Linux but the experience isn’t smooth

That hasn't been my experience. In recent times, I've always had one of these two things happen:

1. The game runs just as good or better on Linux than it does on Windows

2. The game can't be played at all on Linux, because of the DRM, anti-cheat, or anti-tamper

smeagull5• 3 years ago

I'm just annoyed how few games release for Mac. I have a nice M1 all paid for me, but I can't game on it like I can my linux laptop - except that one has integrated graphics.

My backlog of unplayed (and yet to be bought) AAA games now encompasses most of 5 years at this point.

AnIdiotOnTheNet2• 3 years ago

If the VR story on Linux was even remotely palatable to me I'd have already switched. If some games I want don't work, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. As it is, I'm with you on 10 almost certainly being my last Windows.

t0bia_s5• 3 years ago

As someone who use Adobe profesionally, I cannot leave Windows.

It frustrate me.

Zurrrrr3• 3 years ago

If you own your device, no reason you HAVE to be tied to Adobe, it's just about compromise.

smeagull5• 3 years ago

Well if you're using Adobe, then you don't care about telemetry or spyware, so it's not a problem.

drunkenmagician• 3 years ago

Adobe products (almost all I thought) run on macOS. Why can you not move? 3rd party add-ons / extensions?

user39393822• 3 years ago

+10 on NetBSD. Great quality code and really friendly community that I've been interacting with here and there for many years.

Zurrrrr3• 3 years ago

Yeah it's drawn my interest for a while now. I think it has a lot of interesting security features that look fun to explore, and there is some functionality I would like to try porting to it also.

Otherwise it's void if I can get it working. I use to run Slackware but not a fan of them trying to compete with Ubuntu. Not a fan of rolling release (as fantastic as Arch is) or source based, so for minimal systems that really just leaves void or alpine.

herbst2• 3 years ago

Did exactly that when unasked telemetry started to get a thing, and windows started to turn just worse. So before/with Windows 7.

Really no reason to look back. As you said since proton is a thing the last anti Linux argument of games is a non issue (it kinda was before, but with more annoyances)

DavideNL• 3 years ago

Same, I started the process of installing Pop!_OS [1] last week. I hope all drivers and things like Fan control work will properly, so far it seems to work really well out of the box so i was impressed - but i haven't tested any games yet for example.

[1] https://pop.system76.com/

PS. I still can't believe Windows has declined so much, what the hell is happening at Microsoft?

phendrenad25• 3 years ago

I tire of this never-ending slander against Windows as being "spyware" when those saying it can't be f*ked to even prove their own point. "It makes HTTP requests" is the latest laziest slap-in-the-face low-effort "attempt" to prove this. Yawn. Personally I like Windows 11 and am amused by people like this.

ninjagoo9• 3 years ago

So what's your theory on why a fresh Windows PC needs to connect to all these 3rd parties at all?

NayamAmarshe3• 3 years ago

Premise:

- Microsoft is a good corporation.

- Microsoft will never break your trust because of the above point.

- Microsoft is old.

- Microsoft can never do wrong.

- People who dislike spyware are criminals.

phendrenad25• 3 years ago

There isn't enough evidence to make a decision, and your insistence that a decision mist be made despite limited information, when no one seems interested in getting better information, is frankly bizarre.

mixmastamyk10• 3 years ago

These comments are disappointing. In the midst of rampant disrespect of the user we have story after story such as this. Instead of discussing what is the ethics are of such behavior and where boundaries should be drawn, we get a number of complaints that there is no packet content provided? Is that really the most interesting detail to focus on?

Just to answer, I can guarantee that geolocator and marketing research pings are not there for "no reason whatsoever" aka coincidence. No, they are not just being friendly. Someone on the other end is paying for that server capacity. The capacity to handle billions of requests from Windows users. Without lots of value creation, MS would be hit with a lawsuit from the folks being DDoSed.

ninjagoo9• 3 years ago

These comments are disappointing. In the midst of rampant disrespect of the user we have story after story such as this. Instead of discussing what is the ethics are of such behavior and where boundaries should be drawn, we get a number of complaints that there is no packet content provided? Is that really the most interesting detail to focus on?

It's a distraction, an attempt at deflection. The real question here is: why do these fresh Windows installs need to connect to "Data Research" 3rd parties at all?

amatecha7• 3 years ago

Well, unless I'm missing something, DNS lookups are of zero consequence, no? The ISP's domain name server returns an IP for the domain name lookup, and then what? Does the OS actually hit the server, or...? If nothing else happens, why would we care? Unfortunately this article/video did nothing to actually substantiate what they're suggesting.

mixmastamyk10• 3 years ago

Why would a program do a DNS lookup without going to the address? DNS is done automatically by the socket.send() API on demand 99% of the time. Code to do lookups with no send/read are written by nobody besides developers of DNS servers and the dig tool.

"They're must be doing something almost no one would ever do!"

More importantly, the author never said it only does DNS lookups. He just filtered for that to keep the amount of data manageable for illustration purposes. DNS lookup is usually the first step in opening a connection.

Do you have any information that the author(s) are lying? That it is only DNS requests? Given the hundreds of similar confirmed news stories? Dark patterns? The NSA slides pre 2013? My guess is not. And easy to reproduce if needed. My guess is that these connections don't go away with more use.

Why are we talking about this? Proverbial red herring.

SaintSeiya84• 3 years ago

there's a bunch of Microsoft employees doing damage control here....attacking the messenger and not the message.

macintux• 3 years ago

Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

causi• 3 years ago

I'm much more prone to working with a busted Windows installation these days rather than just reinstalling because of what a nightmare it is hammering Windows 10/11 into usable shape. With Windows 7, it was just install, ungroup taskbar icons, show hidden files and file extensions, set accent color to black and turn off transparency, then go down the list of installers in my software folder.

With Windows 11, fuck, I don't even remember all the esoteric damn steps I have to do. I'm going to have to write it down the next time I have to do it.

nehal3m3• 3 years ago

If you go down a list of installers you might want to give Ninite a shot!

metadat• 3 years ago

I'd never heard of Ninite, it looks potentially quite useful:

https://ninite.com/

JackGreyhat• 3 years ago

If you use ninite, you might want to give chocolatey a shot ;) https://community.chocolatey.org/

t0bia_s5• 3 years ago

Win11 has winget build in. It let you update all installed programs in batch. There is also chocolatey or scoop.

https://winget.run/

https://scoop.sh/

https://chocolatey.org/

For those who don't like command line, there is WingetUI: https://github.com/marticliment/WingetUI

gibspaulding• 3 years ago

Haven't set up Windows 11 on a personal machine yet, but for Windows 10 step one is download O&O Shutup 10 and let it set all of their recommended settings. After that all that's left is setting my wallpaper black and fiddling with some taskbar settings. I'd highly recommend checking it out if you're looking for a quick way to get sane defaults set on new Windows installs, including Windows 11.

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

Bedon292• 3 years ago

I had not heard of Shutup 10 before, so thank you for this. Definitely keeping that in my toolbelt. Happy to report it works well on 11 and helped get a few settings that I hadn't found myself.

Tozen• 3 years ago

That's why the upgrades of Windows 10/11 have been "free". Appears that Microsoft is making money off of selling the user and their data.

For any kind of privacy, users have to find and modify/remove all the excessive telemetry, spyware-ish programs, and weirdness settings.

npteljes5• 3 years ago

I'm going to have to write it down the next time I have to do it.

Honestly, this is what I ended up doing with everything. Fuck remembering all the things. I have a note taking app (used to be a single large TXT), where I scribble down everything, from the model of our electronics, to the steps I need to do to make my ZFS backups. On one hand, it's great to feel safe in that this knowledge won't go away, on the other hand, it's also a boon to free up mental capacity. I'm much happier offloading everything I can.

M95D2• 3 years ago

Why is this treated as news?

I knew there was spyware when I first saw it in Windows XP - the "search online for drivers" option pre-enabled which would have sent my exact PC's configuration to Microsoft servers. At least back then it could be disabled and there were 3rd party firewalls that could filter outgoing connections.

I skipped Vista.

I only connected Win7 to the internet once and I saw how the firewall completely failed to block outgoing connections. Since then, I keep my Win7 behind a filtering proxy with no direct access to internet. Only firefox has the proxy password.

Did anyone look at the Win7's scheduled tasks? It's an absolute nightmare.

mixmastamyk10• 3 years ago

Congrats on seeing this early, but most people are still unaware.

Xeamek2• 3 years ago

No, most people simply don't care about some esoteric 'privacy' when giving it up offers them much more comfort and ease of use. It's always been this way, and will always be.

efreak4• 3 years ago

Windows 7+ firewall is entirely capable of blocking outbound connections by default.

It's not hard: https://superuser.com/a/268909

fernirello• 3 years ago

How do you deal with updates (ideally, at a time of your choice)?

M95D2• 3 years ago

Simple. I just don't do updates. I did update XP manually until the end, but not Win7. I really can't see any reason why.

nathants• 3 years ago

first step after reinstalling windows is always flipping every toggle in:

https://github.com/hellzerg/optimizer

ninjagoo9• 3 years ago

When I signed up for the waitlist for the New Bing (with ChatGPT), I was offered an express lane with this copy:

             "Access the new Bing even faster"

    "Get ahead in the line when you complete the following"

        "1. Set *Microsoft Defaults* on your PC"

        "2. Scan the QR code to install the *Microsoft Bing App*"

Microsoft Defaults and Microsoft Bing App were links, which I didn't click, and there was a QR code below the second one.

Make of that what you will.

someNameIG• 3 years ago

Wonder if you have to do both, I DL the app but I only have Macs so can't do the MS defaults thing.

jamesholden• 3 years ago

For what it's worth, I did try this out. Downloaded the little Bing desktop enforcement app and everything. Also on the phone. Signed in on both. Returned to the 'access' faster page. Nope, just same old 'Do this process to get it faster!'. So it was completely pointless. Unless they mean, jump the queue, and it's in a couple days? But it doesn't _say_ that really. So I dislike this little thing they pulled here. It could be biased too, as I was recently reading about this: Five Walled Gardens: Why Browsers are Essential to the Internet and How Operating Systems Are Holding Them Back. https://research.mozilla.org/files/2022/10/Mozilla-Five-Wall...

vmoore2• 3 years ago

I use Windows Privacy Dashboard[0] to patch Windows 11 for privacy. There are many others like it, but I found this app intuitive and the ability to grab the latest telemetry block-list is great (Windows 11 introduces new and undocumented telemetry hosts all the time).

I primarily use Windows 11 for gaming and for Office 365. For anything sensitive, I use various Linux distributions. I also have a spare Windows 11 virtual machine (VM) for testing purposes and it's completely offline. I like to try out different Windows software in the VM and have it offline because some software I don't trust and I acquired it from sketchy sites, or it could be phoning home and sending sensitive data to some random server.

[0] https://wpd.app/

rejectfinite• 3 years ago

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

atraktor• 3 years ago

Satya Nadella, shame on you!

npteljes5• 3 years ago

Not that it absolves MS, but this is the status quo, since broadband internet is widespread. Systems in general became very chatty over the net, and every proprietary system phones home for various functionalities, user conveniences and telemetry. And very few system is explicit upfront what gets communicated over the net and what not. Even private, open source software communicates a bunch by default, like Syncthing. This one specifically is peer to peer, and advertises privacy first thing on the homepage, but two instances, both behind NATs, still can't communicate without a third party that connects them at first - like STUN/TURN systems that they themselves host (stun.syncthing.net).

https://syncthing.net/

amelius• 3 years ago

Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

seabriez• 3 years ago

This is a really dumb attempt at click bait, that unknowledgeable users will use as cannon fodder. Most of the DNS queries are likely just checking a cert revocation list or something completely innocuous, you can't make a conclusion of any kind based on this type of analysis. Low effort content creation, literally 5 mins of analysis to make dumb conclusions.

mixmastamyk10• 3 years ago

I'd suggest watching again for the marketing research firm and the geo-locator.

amatecha7• 3 years ago

The value of the video (and by extension, the article) was pretty much completely nullified when the guy filtered to just DNS queries.. How is that useful to show us? The only thing we learn is that the OS is resolving some domain names - it doesn't show how/if those domains are actually being connected to. I'm all for proving privacy-invading features of OSes, but like, maybe we could see something with substance?

NayamAmarshe3• 3 years ago

Miss the Windows 7 days.

Windows 11 is another attempt to fool the less tech-savvy crowd and get them to buy new computers through planned obsolescence and fool the users into sharing all their data through force.

Windows does not represent a software that respects the user anymore. Windows represents a tech dystopia where you own nothing and you can do nothing about it.

userbinator7• 3 years ago

According to their analysis, Windows XP doesn't even know what the word "telemetry" means: the first DNS traffic from the freshly-installed OS was to try and contact the Windows Update service, and that's all. No market research, no browsing tracking, nothing at all.

Windows from that era was indeed absolutely quiet, and the first-boot experience from a fresh install was basically a "blank slate". It just sat there on the desktop without doing anything, and waited for you, the user, to do something with it.

Now the first-boot experience comes with disturbingly creepy patronising messages, a start menu filled with ads, and immediate "notifications" which are even more ads, and while that's happening, it's doing tons of stuff in the background that they probably don't want you to know about. All of this "modern" stuff just has a very repugnant aesthetic, and acts like you're not the user, but an unknowing idiot to be milked for $$$. I guess MS saw how much spyware many users would eventually install themselves, and wanted to get their suck of the sav.

Terretta• 3 years ago

OTOH, for a long while, a fresh install of XP with a public IP would be 'owned' within minutes. Not sure telemetry solves* this though.

// * Always at least XP SP2

userbinator7• 3 years ago

Yes, the default listening services were the worst as they were easily exploited; but most users are behind a NAT, and you could still disconnect from the Internet and apply the update first, or disable them. More precisely, it was common in those days for connecting to a network to be one of the last things to do, after already having set up a lot of other things before that.

The fact that some versions of Windows 11 require an Internet connection just to install and go through the initial setup seems like it could be even worse.

alwayslikethis• 3 years ago

I propose the term "slaveware" for software and hardware not under the user's control. In general, any software that acts in the interest of someone other than the user can be considered slaveware, but especially when it is in the interest of a company or the government. Slaveware uses dark patterns to direct user behavior, spies on users, and attempts to deceive user of its true intentions. It asserts control, overriding the user's desires. Most software targeting the general public nowadays are slaveware. The developers think they know better than you. Apple devices are slaveware, because they only allow running software they approve unless you jump through a lot of hoops. Slaveware makers often weaponize their market position to push increasingly aggressive anti-user behaviors. You might not like Facebook or Whatsapp, which does not let you opt out of sending read receipts, but you may be forced to use it because "everyone else does it". I think the issue can only be remedied by very aggressive legislation that would cut down the network effects and market power of slaveware makers. EU's Digital Markets Act is a good start.

userbinator7• 3 years ago

Embrace, Extend, Enslave.

dancemethis• 3 years ago

Just wait until you see Discord...

rldjbpin• 3 years ago

i am constantly reminded of the "slowly boiling an alive frog" analogy whenever we talk about newer versions of software becoming worse with these things.

when windows 10 dropped, many complained about the privacy issues too (remember cortana? also including this guide to reverse some of it https://fdossena.com/?p=w10debotnet/index_1803.frag)

too bad you still need windows for most work/gaming scenarios.

theyeenzbeanz• 3 years ago

Windows 11 boots pitifully slow on both my laptop and desktop with both having PCIe NVMEs. Pathetic enough to where my vintage windows 95 build boots faster than it. I miss windows when it was rather simple and not some steaming pile of spyware and bug riddled piece of junk.

rspoerri• 3 years ago

Anybody got experience with https://github.com/Atlas-OS/Atlas ? Could be an interesting thing if it really is what it's promising.

npteljes5• 3 years ago

For one, Windows Defender is removed. Why? It's useful, and it doesn't add much overhead. Well worth for the functionality offered, IMO.

I personally use Windows LTSC for gaming.

noltncy• 3 years ago

I had switched to MS ecosystem (invested in windows 10, onenote+outlook (client and mail service)+todo and onedrive) when 'Gmail is evil' fiasco started years ago. Sticking to it due to convenience, innovation (boards in calendar, teams for personal use, loop etc., O365 being smooth online) and affordability (stackable multi year subscription through offers -amz/Newegg).

Now rethinking after I got windows 11 in a new machine - the push to use edge is now really annoying. Xbox is nice in win11 but I have found win11 to be pretty buggy as well, hangs a lot in a gaming laptop being used only for browsing. Edge feels super convenient, like old opera with all the bells and whistles built it but at times it feels scary. Especially when it comes with your employer badge in a work computer. Similarly viva insights. MS has mastered the art of telemetry it seems. Majority of my colleagues and friends do not seem bothered.

I had debloated my win10 installations but too lazy to do it again in win11. Any suggestions?

Windows 11: a spyware machine out of users' control

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