Tell HN: Did you know you can negotiate price on many things?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30748959

by _njuy • 4 years ago

196 365 4 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I learned this late in life, but I came to realize that for anything you buy from a small business or from someone on commission, you can negotiate.

After reading about it on Reddit, I‘ve shown up to hotels and gotten 40% off initial price.

At Guitar Center, you can negotiate the price of guitars.

I’ve seen people negotiate a round of shots in NYC.

The world exists out there at a discount if you’re willing to ask for it.

tormock2• 4 years ago

Yesterday, Comcast tried to start charging me 2.5x for my Internet service... I called to cancel the service and all of a sudden, they were able to give me the old price...

alphabettsy• 4 years ago

Retention department is always a great place to get a deal for this type of thing. Same with wireless.

billh• 4 years ago

Sadly, in my experience this only works if there's a viable competitor in your area. Last time I asked to be transferred to the retention department, after getting nowhere with the Comcast rep, the only question they had for me was "what date should we process the disconnect for?"

winrid3• 4 years ago

They may secretly start throttling you/adding latency to get you to call back. I may be crazy, but after I renegotiated a higher speed for a lower price, I have been having all kinds of crazy latency/timeout issues that don't happen on a VPN.

samatman2• 4 years ago

Squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you call a few times to complain about your network speed, the problems have a way of just disappearing.

neurostimulant2• 4 years ago

If the isp throttles you, why they left vpn connections alone? My guess it's just suboptimal peering on their part and/or overloaded dns server. Those are my top issues with my ISP and they're gone with vpn (vpn providers has different peering and their own dns server).

tormock2• 4 years ago

I still get 5ms ping in CSGO and they upped my limit from 1tb/month to 1.2t/month....

WinterMount2232• 4 years ago

Even going to her cousin’s birthday is negotiable.

booboofixer• 4 years ago

It's a skill that needs practice to perfect. I wish somebody offered a service where a professional would bargain on your behalf. Sort of like Leon from Curb Your Enthusiasm showing up to make sure people aren't taken advantage of financially when they're getting work done on their house/car/etc.

WinterMount2232• 4 years ago

The house husband.

cercatrova• 4 years ago

Levels.fyi has a salary negotiation service which people say works well.

https://www.levels.fyi/services/

Mandatum• 4 years ago

You’re still doing the negotiation, they just tell you what to say and what to ask for - advice unique to your situation.

lastofthemojito• 4 years ago

IIRC the lesson there seemed to be "you get what you pay for". Everyone was initially happy with the cheaper "solution" that Leon negotiated, but in every case it blew up and became a costlier problem in the end. Each homeowner would have been better off if they'd just done the initial expensive thing rather than eke out a deal. Of course, we're talking about a fictional TV show, so your real-world mileage may vary.

micromacrofoot2• 4 years ago

In my experience it’s not really worth negotiating a service price when quality can make a big difference… maybe it’s a coincidence, but the couple times I’ve done it for house construction work I ended up having problems with the results

buying a car or getting a hotel room? not much harm can be done there

wizwit999• 4 years ago

Immigrant parents teach you this pretty early on lol :).

yuppie_scum• 4 years ago

The third Rule of Acquisition states: Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to.

weikju• 4 years ago

So glad I’m not the only one who sometimes quotes those. Brought a smile to my face today, thank you.

rootsudo• 4 years ago

DS9 really is the best trek, makes me wonder about peace is good for business/war is good for business.

throw0101a3• 4 years ago

* https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Rules_of_Acquisition

* https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Ferengi_Rules_of_Acquisi...

Clips of all of them being said:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G-7aw6vurY

I wish I could memorized them more readily, but I have to real practical reason to keep them stored in my head, but I wish I could have them handy for funsies just because.

bitxbitxbitcoin• 4 years ago

If that doesn’t work, ask for the cash discount.

MerelyMortal9• 4 years ago

I've negotiated 40% off of mattresses at different Mattress Firm stores. Most of sales people do not want to negotiate, don't waste time with them and move on, matress chain stores are a dime a dozen. You can even call them and say you're looking to buy X and are calling around to find the sales person that will sell it to you at $Y.

Don't ask for a "deal", "discount", "best price", etc, ask, "Can you do X at $Y?"

Consumer Reports has a good chart you should scroll down and look at:

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2013/08/how-to-...

yewenjie• 4 years ago

At markets where haggling is common and expected, asking 'Can you do X at $Y?' sends the signal that you know the real market price of the product and are not a novice just asking for a discount.

toast02• 4 years ago

I got something like 40% off a matress by acting uninterested... Of course, I thought I was uninterested (which made it really easy to act like I was) and they made a sale, so who knows who won.

warrenm7• 4 years ago

The best negotiations are where both sides are happy with the outcome

Sounds like this is a perfect example

jamesfinlayson• 4 years ago

I assume it's like this around the world but in Australia at least, retail mattress prices are double what the mattress shops will happily sell them for.

Mattress sales where all mattresses are half price happen pretty frequently.

Ekaros• 4 years ago

Same models being sold multiple times for discount year after year... Yeah, the real price is close to regular discount price so there is high change that getting it at that or near that price other times too.

astrange3• 4 years ago

The online/podcast mattress price is still cheaper than that, unless you're hard to ship to. The wholesale price people on mattress DIY forums I assume exist use has to be much cheaper than that still.

pram• 4 years ago

I’m not convinced anything is intended to be sold for the tag price in that particular store fwiw. The sales people seem to know the “actual” price.

MerelyMortal9• 4 years ago

The Mattress Firm salespeople that will negotiate down to 40% always type it in the computer before saying "yes" or "no".

The others say they can only do 10% or that I can't negotiate. The later, I just laughed and walked out the door as he was trying to get me to stay. I didn't want to reward that behavior. The rest, I just thank them for their time and wish them a good day as I leave.

Sammi• 4 years ago

You don't even have to negotiate on mattresses. At least where I live they regularly do huge 40-50% sales on select mattresses. You just have to wait until the one you want is in the next round of select sales. I bought my last two mattresses with a 50% price reduction on it just like this. You don't have to wait for black friday as they have sales on some items every week. They just switch around what is on sale about once a week or fortnight.

This is also true of tvs and a lot of electronics.

MerelyMortal9• 4 years ago

I bought a mattress on a holiday where they of course had a sale going on. They don't advertise percentage discounts, just the dollar sale price, and it was only something like a 30% discount. (I was still able to negotiate a price which came to 40% off.)

But if you need a mattress and can't wait for a sale, then you do have to negotiate if you don't want to leave money on the table.

sokoloff2• 4 years ago

The greatest leverage is in your willingness to walk away. Being more willing to walk away than your counter-party is an enormous advantage in nearly any negotiation. (Being perceived as more willing to walk away is almost as good.)

xhrpost• 4 years ago

Good point, but makes me wonder how Medical Bill negotiation is on the list at all? How do you walk away from that? I could see some leverage if you're already in collections I suppose. Edit: The list posted by "MerelyMortal" above.

paxys5• 4 years ago

The leverage is – "I will not pay you and take the credit score hit, which I am okay with. You will then have to sell my debt to collections for pennies on the dollar. Instead of that, let's work out a favorable monthly payment plan."

DiffEq• 4 years ago

My first son was by cesarian and we did not have insurance. The bill was $15,000. After some various payment plan discussions I asked if there was any other way to pay. The lady said yes, if you pay cash before you leave the hospital is is $2000. I since have used the pay cash method to pay a fraction of various medical bills.

beaunative• 4 years ago

I just read all three credit bureaus removed medical bills from their report.

hammock2• 4 years ago

leverage if you're already in collections I suppose.

What about before you undergo the medical services? Why is it so damn uncommon to ask for a price before seeing the doctor?

devilbunny• 4 years ago

Elective surgeries.

Need a hip replaced? Having a child? These things can negotiated in advance at a substantial discount.

prpl• 4 years ago

Tried this buying a used car a few weeks ago, but didn’t work. Still spent money on some stupid crap (pre installed lojack, door edge protectors) to get the car I wanted.

MerelyMortal9• 4 years ago

With supply chain issues, cars are not very negotiable right now. Supply chain issues notwithstanding, used cars are trickier to negotiate because you can't go to another dealer and buy the exact same item like you can with new cars.

sokoloff2• 4 years ago

It sounds like it didn't work in large part because you actually weren't willing to walk away (which makes sense in a lot of cases; if you need something and don't have a good alternative, you may reasonably choose to accept a worse deal than if you were indifferent).

thematrixturtle3• 4 years ago

In negotiation theory, this is known as your BATNA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiat...

steanne• 4 years ago

that costs time and mental energy it's not always worth.

bawolff2• 4 years ago

This.

The price i pay for not dealing with the stress of haggling is well worth it for most things (salaries an exception where it may be worth it)

MerelyMortal9• 4 years ago

Even if I'm only going to save $1-$10, I'm still going to attempt as it helps me build experience for when I do negotiate something where I might save hundreds or thousands of dollars.

I don't view negotiating as something stressful.

paxys5• 4 years ago

Negotiating is pretty much dead these days in most western countries where large chain retail has taken over. An ever increasing chunk of shopping happens online, where negotiation is obviously impossible. Other than that, employees at stores like Walmart, Home Depot, Costco, Target, Lowe's and all grocery and convenience stores don't have the authority to alter prices either. When you have ruled out like 95%+ of all retail, where exactly is this bargaining happening?

dataflow2• 4 years ago

Other than that, employees at stores like Walmart, Home Depot, Costco, Target, Lowe's and all grocery and convenience stores don't have the authority to alter prices either.

They sometimes actually do, but they aren't meant for haggling purposes, and are often only allowed up to a small amount (like say $20). They're meant for things like price-matching or resolving pricing discrepancies.

MerelyMortal9• 4 years ago

Yep. At Target, the cashiers can easily change the price if I said the tag said something else.

I used to be a cashier at a sporting goods chain store. No one ever told me, but I discovered I could give 5% discounts without an override. My team lead could give 10%. No one ever asked for a discount, but I would have probably given them if the customer asked nicely. Of course I could also adjust the price if the tag showed something different, and the computer did not request an override unless it was a large discrepancy.

notatoad• 4 years ago

they may have the authority to correct errors, but they don't have the authority to negotiate. if they're caught lowering prices because a customer has haggled them down, they're going to get fired.

don't try to haggle with retail staff.

warrenm7• 4 years ago

I've had a couple good experiences at, of all places, Walmart - including the a pool cue I bought several years ago

There was no slot for the cue anymore, and no sticker on it

Asked the guy in Sporting Goods how much it was

He looked at it for a minute and said, "how's $5.97 sound?" (that was the price of the marked-down solid maple stick, this was a two-piece fiberglass jobbie (probably a $40-50 cue at the time))

I told him, "sounds great"

He printed-out a "replacement" price tag, and went to check out

tayo422• 4 years ago

It doesn't seem to happen on stuff like Craigslist either anymore. I've been surprised that people just pay what it's listed for.

I also have a suspicion that people even find haggling rude. I also think others are confused by it, like the choosing beggar subbredit seems to often just be bad attempts at haggling

mikepurvis3• 4 years ago

I bought a Fire Stick off FB Marketplace recently, and received an unprompted and pretty racist communication from the seller that I was the "first white guy to contact her and the only person who didn't try to low-ball." It really weirded me out and I ended up kind of calling her out on it so that she backed down and apologized— though even that was weird, I was like "Ma'am, I'm not the one who is hurt by you having these attitudes; don't apologize to me, please just try to do better in the future."

eropple4• 4 years ago

YMMV, but most attempts at negotiation that I see when selling on Craigslist are just lame. A camera that goes new for $1000, up for $800, the ad says "firm", you get boring low-effort "will you take $500?" nonsense. Maybe it works on some people, but it just inclines me towards ignoring them.

leoqa2• 4 years ago

I mean you can haggle before agreeing to meet but when you drive across town and then the guy says “I can only do X” it’s pretty rude.

silisili6• 4 years ago

I also have a suspicion that people even find haggling rude.

I do. Or used to. Then I kinda learned how it all works. If I had an item that could sell for say, 100 on ebay, I'd list it for 80 to get a quick sale without shipping. Then people offering 50 seem rude or crazy to me.

Then I learned to just price it high. So now, that item I'll list for 120, and 'fine, final offer' it to 80 and that works way, way better.

I think people just want to feel like they won, more than about values of items.

Another protip: Never list anything for free. You'll find the worst in society. List it for 5 or 10 dollars, then just tell the buyer it's free when they come.

paxys5• 4 years ago

The problem with Craigslist and the like is that if you list something you can expect that the overwhelming majority of buyers are going to negotiate in bad faith. It isn't worth your time to engage and sort through all of it, so it makes more sense to just list stuff at a low but firm price and decline or ignore all the lowball offers.

kube-system5• 4 years ago

You can still negotiate on eBay!

Theodores• 4 years ago

For online you just agree to take that 10-25% on your first purchase for being on their newsletter. So lame, but totally possible because of how it works with the person growing the newsletter subscriber base not having to care about the bottom line.

I used to sell bicycles where everyone expects a discount. Not being weak I would risk them walking away. Typically I would explain that we don't have much mark up on actual bikes and would also point out that I had spent a half hour or so on them so they can get the perfect machine. I would also explain to them that next week they would forget the price and that in ten years time they would see the price paid as a bargain.

I would then say that everyone likes a deal and that I could do them lights or a D lock or a helmet. I would explain that he brackets for the lights or the lock can be a faff to get right, and that if they took my deal, then we would get the chosen extras fitted properly and now. Usually this was enough for them to get the free lights, paying for the helmet and D-lock. So, by not being weak and being honest about 'my boss killing me for discounting', I would get full retail plus the upsells and a loysl customer. Nobody walked off with this stance which was great.

Naturally we had mountains of the accessories offered so it would cost $10 - $20 in parts that cost less than trade price.

yongjik• 4 years ago

Which is great. It means when you pick up something, you know you're getting the "fair price," or at least the same price as everyone else. You can just look around, pick whatever you want, and you know exactly how much you will pay without even asking.

South Korea has thousands of traditional markets which have been slowly dying for decades - lack of transparent prices is frequently cited as a major reason. Few people want to spend time haggling just to buy a mackerel.

Anunayj• 4 years ago

gosh I agree so much, I feel like sellers that expect customers to negotiate often would inflate the price to account for any potential negotiation, (So they can meet the customer in the middle). This means I have to spend time and energy to negotiate the price just to get a fair price, which I'm not really good at.

solarmist3• 4 years ago

I understand the feeling of not being able to negotiate because 95% of my purchases are small ticket items from national chains, but if you think negotiating is dead then you aren't looking.

I am NOT a strong negotiator, I'll usually only ask if I'm buying a few things or my checkout price will be greater than ~$200, but just asking will usually be enough. "Can I get a discount" or "can you throw in some of this stuff for free." But even with that, I've been able to get plenty of discounts.

And that expands a TON if you add floor model/open box/dent and ding items. Almost any store will give you a minimum of 10% off on AT LEAST those items.

Places you can negotiate:

* Any car dealership

* Buying houses or real estate

* Renting apartments/houses not managed by multi-city corporations

* Music stores, excluding Guitar Center

* Guitar Center (somewhat)

* Mattress stores

* Furniture stores (that are at least on the level of Ashley furniture) or independent (so no Ikea).

* SaaSes that have sales teams [email them and ask, they often will give discounts if you have a better reason than "I want a discount" which is a pretty low bar. Like student (real student, not I still have my college address 10 years later), military, I'm a poor startup founder and can't afford the full price. <- I've used this a few times pre-revenue]

* Smaller software companies that aren't selling games (email them and ask, they often will give discounts if you have a better reason than "I want a discount" which is a pretty low bar)

* ANY place that sells anything used from slightly used to antiques

* Farmer's markets

* Boutique food stores (this one is kinda iffy unless spending a fair bit)

* Flea markets

* Dentist offices (the approach is different here usually appealing to loyalty discounts, personal hardships, or extra cosmetic type services)

* Mall kiosk vendors oftentimes

* Outside of the US any kind of vendor in a shop that is in a specialized mall (ex. In Seoul in the electronics district, there are malls full of small vendors that have similar inventory as everyone else, you can haggle a ton)

* Any independently owned shop that has most items retailing for >~$50 or average ticket price >~$100.

* Non-chain Restaurants (but I'd generally avoid it unless going high end because margins are usually tiny)

* Pretty much ANY store that hasn't "standardized" itself to death.

* Rental cars

* I could keep going.

Places you can't:

* National chains where the sales staff is minimum wage. Walmart, Best Buy, Target

* Stores selling small-ticket items (average purchase is under $100)

* Online retailers (outside of standard coupons, etc)

* Grocery stores

* Regional/nationally managed rentals.

* I'm having trouble thinking of other places you can't negotiate at least a little at...

solarmist3• 4 years ago

If you also throw in "price matching" you can haggle at even more places.

The moral of the story is any place with a physical presence MUST charge a considerable markup (40% markup would be in the discount store range of markups) in order to stay in business, so if it is worth their while to make a sale they will haggle.

If they are selling commodity goods or small ticket items it's difficult to make it worth their while to even talk to someone wanting to haggle.

kqr2• 4 years ago

Granted it's not something I normally do, but for just once I tried getting a 48 % discount on an item in a large-ish retail baby store just a couple of weeks ago. After a brief back-and-forth they were okay with it.

Despite the fact that the store in question usually has pretty crappy service and I avoid them, the customer focus in that interaction increased the chances that I'll go there again in the future.

(Why did I try if I normally don't? It actually started when I misheard the price they said, and I figured why not just roll with it and see what happens?)

warrenm7• 4 years ago

At least at my local Lowes, there's often a lot of wiggle-room on floor models (which are often returns)

We ended up with over 35% off a mower last year because the engine meter had more than .1h (6m) on it, along with some dirt and grass clippings in the mower deck

Brand new (minus 20 minutes of run time and some dirt) with all the warranties intact

senectus1• 4 years ago

I'm really really bad at this.

in fact I'm so bad at this that it extends to the inability to see prices on items.

If I walk into a shop and notice that it doesn't have prices on items I'll walk out. I do NOT want to be talked into buying something.

gridspy3• 4 years ago

Those shops are for other people than you or I. Those who don't care about spending money, or so busy buying everything they see.

The last thing you want to do with a customer like that is remind them they are spending money.

dspillett• 4 years ago

Same here. If I had to live in an area where negotiating was commonplace and online shopping was an option, I'd be doing a lot more of the latter. See price, decide I'm happy with that buy, decide I'm not, don't. If I don't see an obvious price I assume it is too much, or that there will be a painful (for me) negotiation (or massive upsell to try to avoid).

Unless it is something I really need/want, in which case I might have to step out of that comfort zone. But retailers might be surprised by how much I'm willing to do without in order to avoid that!

ALittleLight• 4 years ago

I was at an office supply store trying to buy a chair and an employee told me they didn't have any more of the model I wanted. I pointed to the chair I had just been trying out and he said it was a floor model, but they didn't have any in stock. I asked if I could buy the floor model, and he said yes, but the floor models were more expensive. I said, if anything, the floor models should be less expensive because they were used, he agreed and gave me a discount on the floor model.

Negotiating for price still feels very weird to me in most circumstances though.

solarmist3• 4 years ago

I have never heard "floor models are more expensive" before. By definition it's used goods. Wonder why they said that?

I reguarly will buy the last of something and end up taking the floor/display model. Usually for a 10-25% discount (very occasionally more on things most people wouldn't touch the floor model on and have a healthy mark up) on the price they have listed.

That and buying a bunch of things and asking for a discount are the best ways to haggle that I've found. If buying 10 things from a shop (not small ticket items or at chain stores with minimum wage employees) it's usally easy for them to throw in the lowest priced items as "freebies".

silisili6• 4 years ago

Chiming in to add - Lasik!

I saved and saved to get mine in my early 20s, and assumed it's just the price you pay like anywhere else.

About 8 years later, went to same place for my wife and between age and experience I just said 'ah, sounds like too much we'll go elsewhere' and they nearly halved the price. Wish I knew that the first time!

However, don't overdo it. You're highly unlikely to get anywhere trying to negotiate at big box or grocery stores on typical items and likely just annoy the cashier. My brother used to get driven up the wall by people wasting time doing this - noting they were usually foreign people and that may have been how things worked in their native country.

dataflow2• 4 years ago

Basically, it only makes sense to haggle when the other person actually has a nontrivial incentive to make the sale. If their pay is going to be the same regardless of the sale, "I'm taking my elsewhere elsewhere" is going to be meaningless.

silisili6• 4 years ago

Great point. I realized that when working auto parts as a teen. There was zero incentive for me to care about sales, I just got my barely minimum wage.

My manager though would always be ready to wheel and deal on big items. He told me eventually they get bonuses based on monthly sales, so would do anything to get them.

Weird dynamic really. So basically you only might get a discount on non busy days when the store manager was in. This is probably why the whole 'Let me talk to the manager' stuff came about in the first place.

plorkyeran• 4 years ago

It also only makes sense to haggle when the other person has the authority to change the price. Retail salespeople sometimes makes a commission on sales but have no say in the price.

philjohn• 4 years ago

This is why, pre chip shortage, there were great times to buy cars - the end of their financial year.

If a dealership sells an agreed on number of cars they get a % back on each car purchased, I've heard 5% quoted.

At the end of the financial year, they quite possibly might only be a few cars away from this, and it's a big deal. I was buying a new car, and they were adamant about sticking to the list price, so I walked. A few days later they phoned up offering a STEEP discount (25%), sadly, the one they had in stock wasn't the colour or spec I wanted, and I managed to get another dealership to cut almost as much off. But it goes to show - knowing who you're buying from, knowing how they make their money, and when they need sales quick, and crucially, being ready to walk away, are important.

gridspy3• 4 years ago

Perhaps it was the 8 years that did it?

During those first years they would have paid off all the equipment and sold the treatment to the vast portion of eligible patients.

Congrats for asking! I should try that!

nrmitchi• 4 years ago

Naw, I got a 30% cut by simply saying “that’s higher than I was hoping was, I was expecting closer to $XXX” to which they said “we can do that if you can schedule it next week”.

wodenokoto• 4 years ago

Big box, like big box electronic stores?

They generally have a discount budget they can use on small items if you buy big items.

E.g, I got my carrying case for free because I bought a switch _and_ two games.

Got delivery and installation free because we bought a stovetop _and_ a fridge.

But it had to be negotiated.

amingilani• 4 years ago

Tangential question: How'd LASIK work out for you?

silisili6• 4 years ago

Like everything else in life, I obsessed and compared pros and cons for weeks before deciding on PRK. In the end, the thought of having an 'eye flap' was disgusting enough to me to choose the older option.

The surgery was super quick, and I could see amazing right away. Then it all went away. I probably slept for 2 or 3 days straight... waking only to take a pain pill and sleep again. I remember looking at the ceiling fan each day and it looking clearer and clearer before my eyes hurt and said pills.

I could finally work but my eyes were super light sensitive and my resolution was trash. I was sitting in a room with no lights, sunglasses, and my laptop screen zoomed way in when I started back at work, and even then kept confusing minus for equals.

In short time it healed and like most things, I forgot the bad and am completely happy.

My wife got Lasik and could see perfectly a few hours later with no side effects.

I guess she doesn't mind that gross eye flap I kept reading about, lol.

In the end, we are both happy with our choices and would do it again in a heartbeat.

exikyut• 4 years ago

I wonder if the significant deflation was a feature of this being a medical context, a US medical context in particular.

My vague understanding of the subject is that everyone just pulls giant numbers out of thin air to start the professional haggling conversation with (presumably) the recipient's insurance adjustment team - who will promptly bring things into the realm of reality they work within. IIUC if insurance is held hostage for a full amount (eg, workplace injury) it might end up a lot lower, while if there's an opportunity for recipient copay (eg, elective surgery) the insurer will punt and say "ok we'll just do $X" - even though the recipient may not realize they can adjust the cost down just as easily as the insurer can.

(I faintly recall reading about someone getting some random procedure done, getting quoted $10k by a doctor in a medical center, following up and going "?!?!?!" and being told by the receptionist or similar that the procedure was really just $300 or so (or similarly less). Something like that. The doctor simply had no idea so pulled a number out of rand().)

I think things started out trying to manage liability and lawsuit funding (and legal can generally be a giant price guide watermark hot air balloon...), but sort of accidentally got permanently associated with "oh that'll be expensive" to the point the whole thing just a self-fulfilling-prophecy-powered perpetual motion machine - and not just that, but one with an ever-widening margin between expectation and reality... that the powers that be are distinctly disincentivized to disentangle in any way shape or form.

So being able to assertively question medical fees, and do it Correctly™, is a definitely-useful skill, albeit one that is categorically tricky to learn (caveat emptor :/)...

bryans2• 4 years ago

Negotiating is typically only possible in situations where the salesperson is receiving a commission (Guitar Center) or is in a position to directly benefit at the expense of the business (bartender hoping the discount will translate into an equally sized tip). That said, there are a lot of places that applies to and it never hurts to ask.

mikepurvis3• 4 years ago

Loyalty is another one. I'm very regular at the cheese counter at my local farmer's market, spending ~$20 most weeks— it's ended up where I'm on a first name basis with the guy who is usually there. He never weighs any of my stuff, just lops off big chunks and is like "sure that's about the right amount lol." Based on the grocery store prices for these cheeses, I'm pretty sure he's giving me a 30-50% discount.

But part of it is probably also that I'm very easy going; I'm happy to take whatever it is he's trying to move, and happy to grab chunky ends or other pieces that would be annoying to cut, etc.

bryans2• 4 years ago

While I wouldn't necessarily categorize that as negotiating, I totally agree that befriending employees, managers and owners is one of the best things you can do for your bank account. Especially true for restaurants. The first thing I do when moving to a new area is find a good restaurant or deli that I could see myself frequenting, and then go there every day while being as personable as possible (which is not exactly my natural state). It takes maybe a couple of weeks before the customer appreciation perks start appearing.

throwbigdata• 4 years ago

Called the good guy discount. Or nice guy discount.

bubblethink2• 4 years ago

Heh. I have the opposite problem. I am learning that you can't negotiate when the market is not favourable (i.e., current times). Applies to all big ticket items - cars, rent, real estate, etc. I have internal metrics for what things should be worth, and if you stick to it, as I have, you end up getting nothing.

Dracophoenix• 4 years ago

What are some of those internal metrics? How did you come across or develop them?

bubblethink2• 4 years ago

Historical trends, geographical trends, plain old intuition and gut, or any number of angles that you think make sense, but all that goes out of the window if you are in a bad market. The price is what the market is willing to bear, as they say.

mikepurvis3• 4 years ago

Maybe that's not so bad? Having a firm internal sense of something's value that prevents you from overspending on it even when it's on discount?

Feels like a lesson every gamer with a Steam Sale backlog could stand to learn.

bawolff2• 4 years ago

I mean, if you consider that "a problem" then your sense of what things are worth is probably wrong, since if you're valuing things correctly then you should be happy with a "no deal" outcome for things that are to expensive.

hackerfromthefu• 4 years ago

I use a similar strategy often and agree it's an issue, but overall quite a good strategy.

The solution of course is to actively keep in touch with changing market dynamics. The last couple of years have had rapid changes through the shortages and inflation, so you need to consider todays value not yesterdays.

throw0101a3• 4 years ago

Ferengi Rules of Acquisition #141: Only a fool pays retail.

* https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Rules_of_Acquisition

* https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Ferengi_Rules_of_Acquisi...

thematrixturtle3• 4 years ago

Game of Thrones pro tip: the Iron Price is even cheaper.

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Iron_price

gridspy3• 4 years ago

I often feel bad asking for a discount. I know that my 10% discount is often halving their profit for the item.

I prefer shops where they have already offered stock at their best price and refuse to price it lower. One less thing to worry about.

MerelyMortal9• 4 years ago

Profit is different for different items at different businesses.

I'm not a Business Major or anything, but I'm guessing the median mark-up on items is 100% (50% profit). Thus if I get a 40% discount on something (like a mattress), the seller is still most likely making a 20% profit.

thaumasiotes• 4 years ago

I'm not a Business Major or anything, but I'm guessing the median mark-up on items is 100% (50% profit).

Well, there's your first problem. A 100% markup will only yield 50% profit if you have no operating costs at all.

Brajeshwar2• 4 years ago

A little different story while negotiating with family-run small businesses.

India is on a path to digitizing everything from all the mom-pop stores to the random tea-sellers on the corner of every street to even the beggars accepting payments digitally. Yes, India does have a financial infrastructure far better than many developed countries.

I have been on the back-end side of one such digitization effort and have seen the data. Everything that we do, or anyone in the ecosystem does to optimize profit -- end target/product are always those small businesses and the mom-pop stores run by the neighborhood uncle and aunties.

When I buy from the local stores, the small businesses, I try not to negotiate, even when I know I could have and everyone else does. I know they make a tiny more profit, and I'm happy with my decision. If your help (maid, errand boys, others)[1] bought something and might keep the change. You know they kept the difference, but you just ignore it. It is a tiny sum for you but might just be dinner or different snacks for their kids.

I had my experience, and I don't want to be on the other end and be that smart-ass negotiator. My aunt helped me sell edibles during the Indian festival of Holi. In my first year (when I was 6-8 years), I was out-negotiated to reduce price and/or add more that I lost money in the transaction. I believe I cried, and ever since, wherever I can, I try never to take advantage of someone smaller/weaker on the other end of the negotiation.

1. India has a surplus of cheap labor. It is prevalent, affordable (and thus generate employment) for middle-class households to have maids around.

4mitkumar• 4 years ago

"I try never to take advantage of someone smaller/weaker on the other end of the negotiation"

100% this. Sure, you CAN negotiate with the roadside vendors. But please, don't.

On the other hand, did you know you CAN negotiate the room rates at 5-star hotel chains? You definitely should :)

thematrixturtle3• 4 years ago

Is this really a thing in 2022? There's already a whole bunch of OTAs furiously competing on price, effectively doing the negotiation for me, and with most all chains now doing "best rate guarantee" as well, it's unlikely they will beat the price on the official website.

The one situation where I have had a lot of luck "negotiating" with 5-star hotel chains is when I'm already staying there and need to extend. In this case walking up to the front desk is more easier and far more likely to get you a good rate then enduring the hell that is trying to change your reservation online (Marriott, I'm looking at you).

AussieWog932• 4 years ago

My aunt helped me sell edibles during the Indian festival of Holi.

I'm assuming "edibles" means something different in Indian English... Or you guys are very liberal when it comes to 6 year old drug dealers!

Brajeshwar2• 4 years ago

LOL! Yes, sweets and other 'non-drug' snacks eatable for kids and adults alike during Holi, the color of festival in India.

Edit: You got me thinking, what else was I selling. I kinda remember when weed not yet deemed illegal to grow locally (in India) or was I in a neighborhood with lots of them growing around. Seriously, I need to talk to my aunty.

natch• 4 years ago

Small one but I negotiated at Safeway (chain grocery store in parts of the US) recently, for an item without a price tag. Ended up getting it for a dollar, half of the original offer of $2. Later found out the real price was like $6 which would have been a bit of a ripoff.

ChuckMcM2• 4 years ago

Funny story, waited in line at the grocery store while the lady in front of me was being handled by the cashier. Once all the groceries had been scanned, the cashier told the customer the total. The lady offered her about half of that. It completely confused the cashier who was not expecting someone to haggle. It went back and forth a few times and then the manager was called and I was helped in the next line over. I waited a while to see what would happen, and in the end the lady stomped out angrily and the manager had an employee restock all the stuff she had brought to the register. That was not a place where there was any price flexibility.

However, at the Farmer's market, there is a lot of price flexibility on products.

It is an excellent life skill to be able to distinguish between markets where prices are fixed and markets where they are flexible.

bmlzootown• 4 years ago

We've had local business owners come in before that have tried to haggle with us. Even had one specifically point out repeatedly that he ran a business so he knew how it worked. Wouldn't take no for an answer.

It frustrates me to no end when someone doesn't understand the word "no".

cwillu• 4 years ago

“No soup for you. Come back, one year.”

b3morales• 4 years ago

A friend (small business owner) had this excellent retort when confronted by some particularly aggressive faux-sympathy-mongering:

Oh, really, you're a small business owner too? Then you should know better.

hnthrowaway03152• 4 years ago

There are people who ALWAYS want to negotiate. It's a reality that sellers/buyers have to accept. I usually stop after one "No" because I'm very bad at haggling, but I know a lot of examples that people get what they want even after multiple "No"s. Some people are good at this.

technion• 4 years ago

A local computer store here has a well known policy: If you ask for a better price, they'll come back with an offering 20% above list price. If you question it, it'll go up again.

Honestly I don't mind this. If a video card costs $100 and you're selling at $110 and someone says "I'll give you $50" and makes you devote an hour to the sale, they aren't worth it.

Stratoscope6• 4 years ago

This reminds me of an imaginary situation I made up one time. Naturally I never leave my backpack with my laptops (yes, plural) in the car. So when I've shopped at a tech store like Fry's (remember them?!) I kept my pack on my back.

I wondered what I would do if they asked to search my backpack on the way out. My imaginary response was, "No problem. I charge a ten dollar search fee, which of course if fully refundable if you find I've stolen something. If you question my fee, it goes up to twenty bucks, non-refundable."

Alas, I never got a chance to follow through on this, but it was a fun thought experiment!

emacsen• 4 years ago

A local computer store doesn't likely have a lot of flexibility on price. They're working on low margins and are competing in a tight market already with online sellers. They're going to argue that they're offering something other than price- whether that's support, return policies, supporting local, etc.

But many of the comments on here have been anti-haggling, which is another way to say "Anti-negotiation". The problem I see isn't negotiation but instead how the negotiation takes place.

Let's take this computer store as an example. If you're one customer and you're making a single purchase- this is a simple transactional relationship and it behooves the store to optimize against such customers.

But if you are a customer who has been buying from this store for 10 years and using them for all the computer needs of a small business, presumably they've built a relationship up, in which case the computer store should know that they're gaining a loyal high-volume customer- a valuable asset indeed.

This means they can negotiate on many things, price being only one. They could negotiate on a barter of services, or they could negotiate on a personal relationship that's built up, or they could negotiate on service.

A good negotiation rarely happens in a single transaction.

macintux• 4 years ago

I’ve wanted to try this strategy when buying a used car from a dealership. Offer them a good price, and if they counter, reduce my offer.

hnthrowaway03152• 4 years ago

It really depends on who relies on whom. It looks like they are doing fine and can remove unwanted business as they wish.

I for one won't even touch this shop unless absolutely necessary. There are tons of alternatives online/offline. Good luck with your business.

Stratoscope6• 4 years ago

At our local farmer's market, I trust the farmers to negotiate for me.

They have seen me before, and they will often give me a little discount or throw some new thing into my bag to try.

Maybe I could get an extra buck or two off, but I have it pretty easy as a software developer working from home.

Farming and selling at farmer's markets is hard work. If I don't get the very best price, I figure that's a little tip for them.

Of course if I were buying in quantity I might see it differently. But for the bit of produce I buy, I'm happy to pay for quality.

And I bet that if I needed a larger quantity, they would offer me a good deal.

Part of negotiating is building relationships.

I'm not disagreeing with you, and I really enjoyed that strange grocery story. Just offering a related perspective.

throw123123123• 4 years ago

The margins on a grocery store are very low, it would be crazy to try to haggle there.

In a farmer's market, they probably throw away half the produce, the margin is more in the quantity of goods than in the price, so it would always be better to try to get more goods for free than to put price down!

1024core5• 4 years ago

The key to getting good deals at a farmers market is to show up near closing time.

The produce has already been picked; it's not like they can take it back and re-plant it. They will most probably just sell it in bulk to some mom-n-pop grocery store and head back to their farms. So you can score some really nice deals.

I did this when I was tight on cash for a month or two and needed to survive on the more bare minimum budget.

gnicholas• 4 years ago

However, at the Farmer's market, there is a lot of price flexibility on products.

And the price flexibility increases as closing time nears!

ChuckMcM2• 4 years ago

My favorite comment heard at a garage sale, "In the morning the selection is good, in the afternoon the prices are good." Same energy :-)

aldebran2• 4 years ago

Personally I don’t like to negotiate with farmers. They’re usually family run and is rather they make a good living. At car dealerships like autonation? Oh fuck that, I’ll fight for every dollar!

astrange3• 4 years ago

Median farming family in the US are millionaires, and it's not a good thing they're family-owned any more than a used car dealership or small landlord is. They're both in the same class of landed gentry/small business owners, except farmers get more tax breaks.

As you can learn from @SarahTaber_bww, they're also the most likely to use slave labor because small businesses can't afford HR departments.

graderjs• 4 years ago

Nice sounding aphorism that's probably false: it's not a market if the price is fixed. It's a cartel

loxias• 4 years ago

Holy crap! I had no idea, my eyes are open.

I've always assumed prices at retail shops are fixed, because, for the brief (and horrible) period of time _I_ worked retail, prices are set by corporate...

Any suggestions? Advice? Links? Primers?

I've negotiated my whole life for salary and consulting rate, but never negotiated anything else.

Additionally, for anyone reading this that doesn't know it, you CAN negotiate AirBNB rates, and often do it in a way where you AND the host are happier. I didn't know this until being with someone who runs several top-tier AirBNB houses.

Some AirBNB hosts would be happier letting you stay for a few days "officially" (to make sure you're not crazy or a jerk), and then extend the reservation in cash. Or book the reservation for a long duration, then shorten it once you check in.

It varies from location to location but we sometimes offered guests a 15% off discount if paid in cash, frequently it worked out that we got the same amount.

crawdog• 4 years ago

It frustrates my partner to no end. I always ask for a discount. Worst case you end up paying the amount you expect, best case you open up a window to negotiations of a discount. It never hurts to ask.

robotresearcher• 4 years ago

Your partner is perceiving a cost that you do not.

Nursie• 4 years ago

I don't like doing so. I don't want to have to be fake-friendly with people just to get the 'best' price on something, and leave feeling like I could probably have paid less if I'd just negotiated harder.

It's too much mental effort and I don't find there's any mental reward to the process. It doesn't feel like I got "a deal" it feels like the business or individual I negotiated with is probably trying to rip me off, and probably succeeded.

I'll get the best price by businesses competing with each other for my custom. Or I won't. Either way 'haggling' is alien to me and I prefer the world to be more straightforward.

ars• 4 years ago

I needed to order some parts from an online store, and I missed their sale. So I figured I would email them and ask for a discount.

Turns out if I bought a minimum amount they were willing to give me a significant discount - much better than the sale pirce, and the minimum amount wasn't that much.

I may start doing this a lot - just email and ask for a coupon.

tomcam2• 4 years ago

I had to teach myself negotiation because I am not natural at it. I finally figured out a useful hack. My magic words are “What’s your best price?”. I ask it with a friendly, confident tone, as if it were my best friend on the other side of the table. This approach has conservatively saved me tens of thousands of dollars over the years and it is very low stress.

By the way, guitar center doesn’t really negotiate much anymore. They tend to price guitar more realistically than they used to. 10 years ago you could pretty much rely on getting 40% off or so from the price tag, but they’ve trended away from that in the last few years.

knighthack2• 4 years ago

I have quite a different approach. I would never ask a best friend for a discount, since if I value the friendship, the money matters less than it. (Plus I'd want my best friend to make the money he deserves, not less. A discount is not something I'm entitled to from a friend.) If a sale is a complete rip-off, then I'd rather take my business elsewhere than do a business with a friend whose friendship I value.

tomcam2• 4 years ago

I think I may have expressed myself improperly. I am not talking about dealing with an actual best friend. I am saying that I visualize talking as if to my best friend because it’s much less threatening to me than dealing with a difficult adversary.

1024core5• 4 years ago

I was traveling near the South Rim of the Grand Canyon Park. It was late in the evening (around 9PM or so IIRC). Wanted to crash for the night. Found a nice hotel in that cluster of hotels just outside the park. Walked up to the desk, asked for the manager. He comes up. I explain the situation to him: I've been traveling all day, all I need is a warm shower and a bed, and I'll be off in the morning.

He looks at me, writes a figure on a small sheet of paper and slides it over. I look at it, nod and slide it back, thanking him. It was almost half off their advertised rate.

Bonus: he asked me to park in the "employee of the month" parking spot, since that employee wasn't going to be working that night.

d--b• 4 years ago

Note that this is very culture dependent.

In many African countries, it is expected that you spend 10 minutes bargaining for everything: food, cab fares, etc., and it’s a thing locals do a lot.

In the US, there is a lot of negotiating too. And also a lot of “small bribery”. Things like slipping a 20 dollar bill to someone to get ahead in a line is extremely common.

In Europe it is much less common. Some things like furniture or cars are often negotiated, but the negotiation margins are much much narrower than in the US (I once got a carpet from ABC carpets in NY at 30% of its tag price).

baby2• 4 years ago

I came back in France after being used to negotiate for everything in China (even entrance to clubs). I failed miserably. There are definitely cultures where people would lose money rather than negotiate, it’s just badly seen.

kqr2• 4 years ago

I think it depends on how you approach it. I find people who aren't used to negotiation are the easiest to negotiate with because they get uncomfortable and want to find a workable solution as quickly as possible.

nicolas_t3• 4 years ago

As a kid and later a student in France, I had a lot of success haggling in computer stores to lower the price even with an online store LDLC (but that was around 2001?) so I'd say haggling di work at least for a while.

I have lived abroad since (including China where I used my negotiating skills a lot :) ) so I'm not sure how it is nowadays.

tokamak-teapot• 4 years ago

If you allow one person to haggle, everyone hears about this and haggles. It might be theoretically 'losing money' but really it's avoiding entering a situation where there's such downward pressure on your sale prices that you can't survive.

mijoharas2• 4 years ago

Hahaha! I remember when I was in China (and learning some Mandarin), one of the first phrases we learnt was "your calculator must be broken" because in any of the markets people would type numbers into a calculator to show you a price. Saying that in Chinese with a laugh definitely saved a fair few yuan over time (it didn't hurt that they were surprised enough at a westerner speaking Chinese that it got a bit cheaper anyways).

nicolas_t3• 4 years ago

Ha! Yup, I used that, the other trick is to learn the local dialect (Shanghainese in my case) and ask for it to be cheaper in the local dialect. That only really worked though 18 years ago when a bigger percentage of people spoke Shanghainese in Shanghai

baby2• 4 years ago

I would go back and forth between vendors who were selling the same thing, and try to lower the last price I got. At some point you'd reach some sort of floor where nobody would bulge. You'd really know you made a deal if the vendor would be upset at you even though you were buying, and you knew you got ripped off if the vendor had a huge smile and made conversation after you bought.

solatic• 4 years ago

To negotiate successfully: a) you have to know what you want b) you have to ask for what you want c) you have to be willing to walk away if you don't get it.

None of that is as simple as it sounds. "I want the best price" is not knowing what you want, it's requesting a 5% discount that patronizes you. Asking for what you want doesn't mean "give me X for $Y", it means building a rapport with the seller first, and usually negotiating over multiple items to get a positive-sum result. And being willing to walk away is really hard if you don't research, build up alternate options, and are genuinely OK with throwing what may be hours, days, weeks on the negotiation in favor of your alternative.

If someone gives you a huge discount just because you strolled up and immediately asked for it, honestly, it's not that you're a good negotiator, it's more likely that they're a bad negotiator, and by sheer virtue of even trying, you have exposed their lack of skill. You shouldn't consider that to be typical.

nicolas_t3• 4 years ago

c) you have to be willing to walk away if you don't get it.

I don't fully agree with you, I've gotten good discounts on things that I was not willing to walk away if I didn't get it. I just bluffed and pretended that I did, but I knew that in the end, I'd still buy it at the original price. It weakens the negotiation leverage, but it's still worth trying to get a discount even if you know that ultimately if it fails you'll buy it a the stated price

ls15• 4 years ago

To negotiate successfully: a) you have to know what you want b) you have to ask for what you want c) you have to be willing to walk away if you don't get it.

It is probably part of "know what you want", but to state it explicitly, I think that having an idea of the actual value is also necessary. How else do you know what is a good price? You could negotiate a 50% discount and still pay too much.

andi999• 4 years ago

Happened to a collegue, going to an art market.

They: how much?

Seller: 1000 USD

They: I give you 10 USD

Seller: Sold

Since there was no counter offer, the 10 was still way too high.

bradlys3• 4 years ago

Sure. You can. I find using Craigslist and slickdeals to be better though, honestly.

Instead of trying to negotiate fruitlessly 100x (I have enough experience to know this doesn’t work well anymore and is a time waster) I just wait for the deal to happen for me.

So far - it’s worked great and people around me are impressed. As they say, hurry up and wait.

rich_sasha• 4 years ago

Is this country-specific to some extent? I can’t quite picture negotiating a sticker price on most goods or services in the UK.

Could be a lack of imagination on my side ofc.

manish_gill• 4 years ago

Being a bad haggler, I typically just always say Yes to the first price I'm asked to pay.

I wonder how this changes across different countries. I know in India, there's a lot of flexibility in negotiation/haggling prices.

But living in Germany, I always get the impression that things are fixed price and I typically don't bother negotiating. Unless it's the rare street market/Weihnachtsmarkt where they're willing to negotiate (and even there they usually don't).

I'm curious to know other countries experience if people can chime in.

Aeolun2• 4 years ago

If I think the price is fair, I don’t haggle. If I don’t think the price is fair, I don’t buy at all.

I have better things to do with my time than convince someone something is not worth as much as they want for it.

codesuki• 4 years ago

In Germany you can negotiate a few things down in electronic stores. Particularly if you buy several items. Or if the competitor sells it cheaper.

Same works in Japan. Saved me a few hundred bucks on my TV.

wackro• 4 years ago

When I visited Morocco I discovered that haggling is seen as an intrinsic part of a transaction. A lot of tourists aren't used to haggling or are afraid to do so out of a perceived risk of offending the seller. But if you don't haggle Moroccans will perceive you as weak, even if you think you've got a great deal paying face value.

wasmitnetzen• 4 years ago

When I lived in Germany, I've seen haggling for bigger furniture items (like kitchen, fridge, sofas). But that's about it.

Funnily enough, there was a big media frenzy when haggling was legalized* in 2001 that everyone was going to start to haggle in supermarkets and every store would grind to a halt. That obviously didn't happen.

*) Technically, it was legal before, but limited to 3% of the price.

oxplot• 4 years ago

On topic of saving money, did you know there are countless VC backed startups either selling/delivering grocery or meal packs with significant discounts for first few orders. If you just sign up to each, get a few orders and cancel, you'll end up saving multiple $100 before you go through all of them.

jb1991• 4 years ago

I guess my problem is that, while I believe this is true, I just really really hate the process of haggling.

derbOac• 4 years ago

I agree. Trying to think of why, I think I often see it as a reflection of dishonesty on the part of the seller, or aggressive behavior on the part of the buyer.

If a seller can't set a fair honest nominal price, in the expectation of haggling, it reduces my trust of them in other ways.

There are situations where negotiating makes sense, but often sellers should assume their list price is what they've negotiated.

HumanReadable• 4 years ago

As important is to recognize that even if the price cannot be negotiated, oftentimes the service you receive can!

If the waiter seats you somewhere you don't like, don't be afraid to ask for the nicer table! At the hotel, don't be afraid to ask if they have a nicer suite you can have instead.

Often employees are not able to negotiate the price, but they have flexibility in what they can offer you!

technothrasher2• 4 years ago

My wife's family does this consistently. But they typically don't even bother to evaluate if the table/room/whatever they've been offered is acceptable or not, they just automatically always ask for "better". It's usually very annoying, as it causes delay, often confusion with the staff member trying to assist them, and sometimes ends up getting something worse than where you started.

retrac• 4 years ago

Well, don't ask for "better". What's better, anyway?

I have to negotiate this for every auditorium, restaurant, in-person conference, meeting. I'm hard of hearing so where I sit really matters. "Sorry, can we sit somewhere quiet/up front?" is never a problem in a restaurant or auditorium that's only half-full.

I guess a general communication tip is give people objective goals, not subjective ones, and ideally a logical explanation for why you need them, if it's unusual. If it doesn't cost them anything most places are quite happy to oblige, I find.

Beltalowda2• 4 years ago

Also: ask for business class upgrade when checking in flights. If they're not sold by now they're never going to be sold, and the €150 extra the airline gets is a good deal for them. It's one of those discounts where everyone wins.

Of course, you need to be prepared that you might not get it.

landa• 4 years ago

In Las Vegas, always tip the front desk person. When you give them your ID and credit card, also include a $20 bill - or a green chip if you've already started gambling. It's in Las Vegas culture to tip everyone all the time. About half the time, I got a room upgrade that far exceeds the tip while doing this, although that's not really the point.

warrenm7• 4 years ago

I've run into this with airlines and rental car companies: being polite and asking if there's anything they can do to help some situation be less cruddy (even it is was your fault that you missed boarding your flight) often nets something that's at least passingly-pleasant

Had Hertz (my least-favorite rental company) give me a discount on a substitute vehicle because I really didn't want to be driving a Suburban for the week (I'd rented a midsize, but they were out of everything but full-size SUVs). They knocked it down to a compact rate for the week (which, to an extent, I didn't really care about - it was a work trip, but I also didn't need all the space and hassle of the big vehicle)

Delta gave my wife and I $400 travel vouchers, rebooked us First Class home, and gave us meal vouchers to make up for getting our honeymoon return trip broken (somehow we ended up on different itineraries). This was right after watching the counter rep do the absolute least to the family in front of us that was extremely rude to the rep.

Just SMILING at the counter rep can make a world of difference :)

I used to get free upgrades at Dollar next to Bradley airport just because I smiled to the manager and his fiancee-then-wife when I'd come in and ask how their weekend was (I spent ~8mos flying into BDL every week several years ago - all but about 3 of those trips utilized Dollar for my car rentals): I'd book the compact of "manager special" rate, and always got bumped up a class (or 4) ...just for being polite

syats• 4 years ago

Just be ethical about it.

If you are a tourist in the global south, and you negotiate down the price of some craft/souvenir/whatever you are buying on the side of the road, you will be able to buy an extra cup of coffee back home, but the person there might have to stand in the sun and away from their family for 4 more hours.

Don't let the well-being of others all in the hands of "the market".

ge96• 4 years ago

Aren't they marked up if they know you're a foreigner.

jamjamjamjamjam• 4 years ago

I have to buy many online goods in USD with my devalued currency. Isn’t that the same?

mintone• 4 years ago

I used to have this mindset... but then I realised that even if they charge e.g. $25 to a local and $50 to me, I'm not personally worse off.

There is little benefit to me in bargaining my way down to $25 - yeah they might think they've conned me, but (as long as it's not factory made junk) I'm happy to pay $50 for something that I like, even if I could negotiate it down to $25. The $25 saved simply doesn't mean that much to me in the grand scheme of things, but most likely does to them.

esperent3• 4 years ago

If you're a tourist in many developing countries you're gonna get charged 200 - 500% of the price a local would pay anyway, so haggle away. Whatever you end up paying is almost certainly going to be way over the going rate, especially in a tourist area. If you're outside the tourist area then things might be different and people are more chill, likely to treat you as a customer instead of a mark. Also depends on the country of course. And should go without saying to treat the people you're haggling with with respect and kindness - if they don't reciprocate then bring your business elsewhere. Don't reward shitty behavior just because someone is poor.

Source: I've lived in a developing country for long enough to work out how much things actually cost.

diegoperini• 4 years ago

In places where tourism season only lasts for a few months, cost of living for the off-season is included in that 200-500% inflation.

yunohn2• 4 years ago

I still disagree with excessive haggling in developing countries, as a tourist. Whatever you haggle, it’s never more than a few dollars - like GP said, worth nothing to you, but everything to them.

hiptobecubic• 4 years ago

This doesn't change the original point whatsoever.

AdamJacobMuller• 4 years ago

Yeah but the thing is the money doesn't really matter to me.

I remember being at a stall (I think it was in Istanbul) and picking out these beautiful scarves for some people back home.

They probably were marked up 500% from the local price but they were still super cheap, like $5/each. When the guy gave me the final price I rounded up and gave him bills in the local currency (it was probably an extra dollar or two USD) but the guy was just super super happy.

The extra couple of bucks for me was meaningless, but, definitely improved his mood and hopefully improved his life.

Plus, now, each gift came with a story to tell.

On the other hand, I bought a rug while there and did not negotiate enough and when I got home my turkish colleagues laughed at me :(

refurb• 4 years ago

Disagree. Just negotiate.

As a foreigner you're going to pay a premium anyways no matter how hard you negotiate.

If you don't negotiate, that just becomes the "price you can get from foreigners", so the starting point gets jacked up. Soon enough it becomes the place tourists avoid.

janekm• 4 years ago

I can't help sharing one of my favourite haggling anecdotes here. I was in a jewellery market in Mexico City, waiting for a friend to return from the toilets, so I spent some time looking over the goods of a stall and looking at one silver bracelet. The stall keeper noticed and told me it was (not the actual prices) 500 pesos. I tell him I'm not really interested. He says 250, I tell him I'm still not interested. 150, still not interested. He says he needs to "check with his boss" and walks off around the corner (there may or may not have been a boss) and comes back with 100 pesos. At this point I figure, well it'll make a nice present for someone and accept...

I don't think he lost out as I legitimately had no interest in buying before he haggled himself down that low, but it was an interesting lesson in how far haggling can go in some circumstances...

Cthulhu_• 4 years ago

I'm convinced that these are the kind of profit margins on products in "the west" as well, but without the haggling.

muzani6• 4 years ago

This is what a haggling culture actually looks like. There's an assumption in this thread that in all "non-Western" cultures, haggling is the norm. But I think it's important for the seller to imply consent first.

sumtechguy• 4 years ago

If you want to re-experience this goto the mall and find one of those kiosks where they sell weird junk. If they are sort of aggressive and coming at you chances are they will play the haggle game. If it is some bored kid on their cell, probably not. When I was younger I would goto garage sales and haggle with people. It was semi fun and a interesting learning experience. It was my first hands on experience with a core CS concept of divide and conquer. I would offer half and we would bisect into the middle to find the real price we wanted.

Also the sales technique that seller used on you is called anchoring. The fun ones are the ones who disappear again and come out with a 'damaged' one that they can not sell but will cut you a deal on. That is usually the next step on that train of bargaining that seller was using.

Most things are not really worth haggling over. Big ticket items, sometimes yeah. Small things not as much. Also know where you are. Some places you are expected to do it. Others it is the sticker on the shelf move along...

technothrasher2• 4 years ago

I tried the "just pay the price they're asking for their bobble, it's inconsequential to me anyway" at a little market in Botswana. It caused a big fight with a few vendors because they were sure the one I randomly chose had some scheme going to get me to just give them money since I didn't haggle. After that disaster, it became clear that most of those tourist markets expect you to haggle.

rubyfan2• 4 years ago

I had the same experience in a European country. I was visiting family and they intervened on my behalf luckily.

bobthechef2• 4 years ago

There is some confusion here. There is no moral obligation of the sort that you are claiming .

Speak to a tour guide in these countries and he will tell you that many tourists from western countries that don’t have a culture of bargaining vastly overpay for many things that are marked up precisely because the locals know tourists don’t know any better. Even if they did, they would still make a profit.

People in the “global south” aren’t stupid. They are much better at playing the bargaining game than westerners. You are no match for their hustling. They will tell you when they cannot go any lower and will not sell for less than that amount. Even that amount is bound to make them a nice profit. It’s not like you’re fleecing them or coercing them into loss. They will not sell below what they can afford. Why would they?

If you want to be generous, be generous, but even generosity can be misguided and foolish, even condescending in its presuppositions (westerners often have patronizing views of the “third world”). Charity has its place. (Look at the effects of mitumba in Africa or free rice in Haiti for example of misplaced charity.) Ethically speaking, justice does not bind us to refrain from bargaining because there is nothing unjust about it.

dotancohen6• 4 years ago

  > Look at the effects of mitumba in Africa or free rice in Haiti for example of misplaced charity.

What are the problems with mitumba in Africa or free rice in Haiti? I'm not American so maybe these are cultural references that I'm not familiar with.

bin_bash2• 4 years ago

What an odd example, those cultures people expect haggling and they will dramatically increase the starting price if you're a Westerner. You could be asked to pay 10x what they'd be willing to sell it for. You absolutely should haggle if for no other reason than to experience their culture a bit deeper.

It's far from being rude or inconsiderate—especially not "unethical".

yosamino2• 4 years ago

they will dramatically increase the starting price if you're a Westerner.

The point is that due to the large different in wealth, the increase is "dramatic" for them, but probably neglible for you.

Why not make someone's life a tiny bit better by not pressuring some some small time vendor in a country with less than a third of the GDP per capita than yours into giving up their share of the wealth that tourism is supposed to bring. Otherwise: what is the point of tourism for a host country?

Imagine making 80k/year, paying $100/night for the hotel you are now stepping out of and then haggling with someone who maybe makes 10k/year over the price of a $30 hat that you would pay $59.99 for if you were to buy it in the US and that takes $5 to produce.

I personally don't just find it rude, I find it entitled.

Negotiating prices within "those cultures" make sense when the playing field is somewhat level. Don't exoticize and take advantage of it.

You absolutely should haggle if for no other reason than to experience their culture a bit deeper.

That is just offensive. Go to a nice restaurant, enjoy their food, see a museum, enjoy the sights. Haggling is not at the core of anyone's culture.

Imagine a Thai person going to Olive Garden for the immersively american experience of tipping their waiters - and even that makes the tinies bit of sense, because at least in that transaction money flows in the right direction.

kerberos84• 4 years ago

Adjusting prices according to local purchasing power is a reality in the business. Amazon prime, Netflix, iCloud are the first ones coming in to my mind. Why wouldn't poor street seller take advantage of it?

antattack• 4 years ago

If you pay too much you spoil it for everyone. Vendadores don't work for themselves so no matter how much money you give them - they have to stand in the sun.

giantg27• 4 years ago

Some cultures expect you to haggle and to not would be an insult.

kingofpandora2• 4 years ago

An oft-repeated aphorism by travelling westerners so they can justify negotiating over $1, but I have yet to actually come across someone who would be genuinely offended by not haggling.

hogrider2• 4 years ago

Living off turists is the most negative value thibg you can do. They spun a bracelet in 5 minutes and want a weeks wages for it. It's always a scam and you should never support it, food and lodging is enough spending as it is.

JamesAdir• 4 years ago

I usually haggle on large purchases like home appliances or furniture. You can easily get a small discount, or free delivery.

AussieWog932• 4 years ago

I sell second-hand items online, so have been on both sides of the fence when it comes to negotiating.

The number one tip I would give is to always consider the person you are negotiating with (note: "person" != "business") and try to reach a win-win. Make their job easy and maximise their profit/commission.

For example, if someone messages us on Facebook with some links to our eBay listings and asks if we can do a better price, the answer is always yes. We're happy because we don't have to pay eBay's cut of the sales (around 10% usually), the buyer is happy because they get a discount. If they're buying multiple items, even better! We don't have to pay for 5 separate lots of "free shipping".

Same thing when you pay a tradesman in cash. They "forget" to enter your transaction into their accounting system (no tax!), you get a better deal. Not everyone would consider this ethical, of course, but it's the same principle of tit-for-tat.

i_like_waiting3• 4 years ago

Anybody managed to negotiate price of rent before choosing the place? What is the strategy there?

bil7• 4 years ago

honestly, luck. I successfully negotiated my rent down a whole 6.6% due to my old landlord and my new landlord being friends and having a good word put in for me.

trapexit• 4 years ago

I once negotiated my rent up. In the tight rental market pre-COVID, I needed a place for my family while we waited six months for the purchase of our house to close.

Our current living situation was intolerable due to unending construction noise next door, and the minimum time you could rent an apartment for was 6 months, so it was a matter of moving right now or being stuck until we took possession of the house.

Found the perfect place, at a reasonable price, and of course there was tons of interest in it. I insisted on getting the first viewing appointment, put in an application immediately, and offered the landlords an extra $50/month on top of the rent they were asking.

So, of course my application was the one they accepted. In this situation, $300 very well spent.

i_like_waiting3• 4 years ago

That makes sense, I am remember contacting too many too good to be true ads without response. I came here to save $ but I guess I will spend more thanks to this thread

lizardactivist• 4 years ago

Just don't take to bartering with people who are selling to make ends meet. Save it for the luxury hotels, big airlines, exclusive shops, who are already making bank.

xwdv• 4 years ago

Don’t negotiate on price, you have no leverage.

Instead negotiate on value. If you’re going to pay such a higher price, find out what else you can get that is valuable to you but of little value to them. For instance instead of 40% off on rooms, I’ve gotten free upgrades to better rooms, with late 3pm checkouts.

jmrm• 4 years ago

This is absolutely true. I done that some years ago in a car dealership, where I got the car with a tow hitch and a spare wheel instead a repairing kit paying the same price.

wjnc• 4 years ago

Herb Cohen - You Can Negotiate Anything (1980) thaught me this. Got that book from a street salesman in China. One of the few English paperbacks he had. It was old and great.

Few memories that seem relevant:

- The advice is to negotiate by building a relationship or mutual understanding. The opposite party should feel good about granting you the sales and not begrudge your style or demands. He had chapters about how to socialize what is essentially a trade. Chat them up, show them why you would like the product, etc. Some of that feels old fashioned.

- You can't one-time negatiate something through display of power. That's a negotiation style for repeat negotiations where you balance your display of power with a loss of future bargaining power.

- Can't negotiate when the other party has no skin in the game. Be it the owner of the store, or someone selling on a concept of commission: they can oversee the financial consequences of your willingness to strike a deal. Can't negotiate with hourly wagers in large firms.. Unless (relationship) they like you and are allowed to decide on prices.

djohnston• 4 years ago

I was unfortunately raised to be ashamed to haggle. It is such a limiting trait but it is deeply engrained in my upbringing so I find it painful to engage in these sorts of negotiations, up to and including for salary. Any tips on how to get more comfy with this?

blunte• 4 years ago

There are programs and books on this subject. I'm not an expert, and I need this education also; so here's a quick starting point I just found: https://daringtolivefully.com/how-to-ask-for-what-you-want

This may not be the best starting point, but it's a place.

A friend took some coaching class once where they were given "scary" human interaction challenges, starting with very small simple ones and working up to ones where you would expect to get slapped. Not only did it help condition my friend to be more outgoing, but he got a surprising number of "Ok"s. I'm not sure this is the best approach, but it appeared to be effective.

And it reminds me of this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vZXgApsPCQ

muzani6• 4 years ago

Be warned that people are reciprocal. I had a business partner who would negotiate everything. We found that luck would turn against us. There would suddenly be added processes and bureaucracy. Partners backed out on verbal promises. People were turning down job offers or sleeping on the job. A banner we bought didn't include the banner stand because it wasn't "included in the price".

If you're generous to others, they may be generous to you. If you're cheap with others, they will definitely be cheap with you.

robaato• 4 years ago

Yup - I remember a customer who boasted how he always negotiated, and I didn't see the warning signs until it came time to pay my invoice!

LeifCarrotson• 4 years ago

We have a few customers like that - there's a column in the quote document with customer-specific adders.

There are a few that are somewhat innoccuous: New customer risk surcharge, automotive customer process hurdles surcharge, foreign customer customs surcharge...

But then there are the "5% surcharge to be removed later as a 'discount'", "Customer X 10% surcharge for extra negotiation and concepting rounds", and "Customer Y 25% surcharge for expected late payment hassles", and "Customer Z 33% surcharge for extra detail in the quote, additional project management, and expected scope bulldozing." They may feel they've 'won', but their extra work was priced in from the start...

lordnacho2• 4 years ago

A hundred times this.

A guy I worked with figured out that you can negotiate everything, and did. He'd get pissed off at the bank charging him an overdraft fee and sit in the telephone queue to get his £20 back.

He took a cab on a business trip to Dubai, and the cabbie kept the meter going while filling up. He argued it and got the equivalent of 50p off.

He'd negotiate agreements with brokers and negotiate absolutely everything.

He pushed really hard on the partnership agreement.

In the end it was just toxic and people were turned off. You don't want to end up in a long conversation every time there's something to negotiate. It also makes everyone think you're going to be difficult.

ragebol• 4 years ago

Negotiating takes time. Time is money...

giantg27• 4 years ago

Well, the cabbie leaving the meter running while filling up is more standing up for yourself and not being taken advantage of. That's a task that should have taken place before picking up a fare (that they wouldn't normally be compensated for that time).

bluefirebrand• 4 years ago

The worst example of this I ever encountered was people who would try to haggle with me when I worked at Staples.

Like dude I was a floor associate, not anywhere near someone who could change prices as listed.

Then, after multiple rounds of me insisting that the price was the price, my manager would come along and go "sure, we can give you a discount on that" and I look like a clown.

a-dub2• 4 years ago

In the end it was just toxic and people were turned off. You don't want to end up in a long conversation every time there's something to negotiate. It also makes everyone think you're going to be difficult.

this. i've been turned off by people when i've seen them push crazy contracts and generally have always believed that mutually beneficial relationships are based on both parties looking out for each other's best interests.

you should never have to haggle over money in any serious deal, having to do so is what they call a "big giant glowing red flag."

smsm422• 4 years ago

Bank fees is absolutely something you can and should negotiate about. Late with a payment a day or two? Charged a fee? Call you bank, apologize and humbly ask for a fee to be waived. If you're a client in good standing, they're very likely to remove the fee. You just have to ask. Of course, if you abuse it, they can refuse, so do not ruin it.

peterkelly• 4 years ago

Negotiation is the inverse of tipping.

muzani6• 4 years ago

An anecdote from 48 Laws of Power:

Akimoto Suzutomo, a wealthy adherent of the tea ceremony, once gave his page 100 ryo (gold pieces) and instructed him to purchase a tea bowl offered by a particular dealer. When the page saw the bowl, he doubted it was worth that much, and after much bargaining got the price reduced to 95 ryo. Days later, after Suzutomo had put the bowl to use, the page proudly told him what he had done. “What an ignoramus you are!” replied Suzutomo. “A tea bowl that anyone asks 100 pieces of gold for can only be a family heirloom, and a thing like that is only sold when the family is pressed for money. And in that case they will be hoping to find someone who will give even 150 pieces for it. So what sort of fellow is it who does not consider their feelings? Quite apart from that, a curio that you give 100 ryo for is something worth having, but one that has only cost 95 gives a mean impression. So never let me see that tea bowl again!” And he had the bowl locked away, and never took it out.

eyelidlessness• 4 years ago

There are whole sitcoms devoted to this (idea of negotiating every price), at least 25 years aged.

And yeah in my experience being generous almost always produces discounts for everyone. I’m not gonna post it but my take is: did you know that workers generally know they’re not spending their own money, but enjoying as much of their leeway as possible with money they’ll never ever get paid on the job?

Tip your waitstaff and bartenders and basically everyone who will accept a tip y’all.

DoingIsLearning• 4 years ago

I mean isn't this the whole point of professional 'Buyers' at large companies who are negotiating with supplliers?

Everything is negotiable it's just that:

A) Most mortals do not have the leverage to open up a negotiating position (not important enough)

B) Most sellers at a front desk may not have the authority to meet you half way in a negotiation.

peterfield• 4 years ago

I work as an independent consultant. Few months ago, just starting, one prospective client (through their CFO/COO suggested is shaved 33% of my quoted daily rate. I offered a $50 discount instead on the daily rate because i had heard the CEO on a podcast and I was interested to learn more about their company. We verbally agreed on a daily rate and a weekly 1 day commitment. At week 5 client tells me they'll pay only 2 of the almost 4 days I had done already cause "they thought the report after the 2 first days was all what was due" BS :(.

1. I should have seen it coming - entitled dude took on himself to get the 33% discount he thought he deserved. 2. It sucked. I spent some time since writing some agreement template and will slowly roll them out with new clients.

rasz• 4 years ago

Is this "Im Rich" humblebrag?

spywaregorilla• 4 years ago

As an American I would consider this very rude

enriquto• 4 years ago

I hate the practice of haggling because it is based on an asymmetry in the knowledge of the sellers and buyers. Instead, I'd prefer that all past sales be visible in a publicly accessible database, so that you could just see how much other people have been paying for stuff. Selling at a different price than the one that is recorded should then be a grave offense, a form of fraud.

VBprogrammer• 4 years ago

I'm not usually too fussy on phones. When an old phone fell out of my motorbike pocket and smashed the screen I walked into a mobile phone shop and picked up a fairly basic android phone which happened to be about the right price point.

However, when our first child was born it quickly became apparent the camera wasn't good enough (especially with one set of her grandparents being long distance).

So I went into the shop and told them I wanted one of 3 phones which had the best cameras at the time. The per month price was £42 a month so quite a big step up from what I was paying. However, they also wanted to charge £100 to end the contract early. After a bit of back and forth they reduced this by about £20. I refused the deal and walked next door to a coffee shop.

I sat down with a coffee and called the customer services for my mobile phone provider. Told the woman why I needed a new phone but that I didn't want to pay the contract fee. Five minutes later the fee disappeared and inexplicably the price for the contract also dropped by £10 a month. The new phone was shipped overnight.

blfr• 4 years ago

It's not inexplicable. The cost of various sales channels is different. Online and over-the-phone are significantly cheaper than retail or in-store.

Large companies maintain physical presence for brand building and to help customers who need more assistance. They indirectly charge for that.

xtiansimon• 4 years ago

Ha. You can certainly try. For my part I’ve not negotiated as much as I fought irrational [1] or dark pattern charges [2]. Win some, lose some.

Just a few examples:

1) salvage fee. As a youth I had very cheap car. The side panel was seamless with the top of the cab. A driver who pulled out too far into the street just backed up into me and damaged my 1/4 panel. Repair exceeded the “value” of the vehicle. Insurance says they will pay me up to the value of the car, minus salvage fee. Oh. What’s that? It’s the value _they_ would get for junking the car. Why are you entitled to this? Because when we pay the value of the car, we own it. Uh. No you don’t, because I didn’t sell it to you. Round-and-round. I’m one for two on that fight.

2) Square (the online credit card payment peeps) have a dark pattern. A button on the site will, without confirmation, instantly charge you some additional three percent of your receivables to deposit it instantly in your bank account. The button looks exactly like a bunch of other buttons you need to click. Off shore call center will not budge on this one.

0xakhil• 4 years ago

Here in India, I have found that just casually asking for a discount will instantly get you a small discount in a lot cases. You just need to look not excited at the product and politely ask if there is a discount. Or at least if they can round the price to nearest hundred. Basically, this is zero effort savings.

For costly things, it is better to cross check with a few stores to get an idea about the local price and ask what is the best they can do. You can let them know you have checked other stores, but don’t share the details of other offers. Sometimes, checking with a store over a phone call might get you a better deal, because yours is a zero effort deal for them which they don’t want to lose to a competitor and also, they won’t be able to read you like they can in case of an in-person bargaining.

I usually try to avoid who doesn’t show even a tiny interest in a negotiation. It is better to give business to someone who is willing to spent some time discussing with customer.

Being said all these, I don’t spend too time much on this to milk out every possible discount. It is a trade off between time/happiness vs saving money.

webmobdev• 4 years ago

To add to this, I've found that calling a few local dealers helped me discover that there was nothing "amazing" about Amazon's or Flipkart's (Walmart) discounts. Sometimes local dealers offered the goods much cheaper.

Cerium• 4 years ago

Despite the fact that negotiations are a core part of Chinese business practices, in the tea industry nobody worth their salt would ever ask for a lower price. The seller will always give you a lower price if you ask, but then also give you a lower grade product without telling you. The best you can do is get the right product at the right price.

Negotiations have their place, but you also have to consider if this is the right place. In my small business I will give a small discount if somebody asks, but they get themselves added to the "don't bother helping them" category of customer.

Xcelerate• 4 years ago

The only things I negotiate on are salary, car price, and home loans. For the latter two, I obtain a dozen or so quotes by email, then go round-robin with every other option asking if they can beat the best quote so far. Repeat until no one goes any lower.

I would have negotiated my job offer in a similar way but got a good offer sooner than I expected and didn’t have any other offers in the pipeline. The recruiter was refreshingly honest about it too, “I’m not going to lie and tell you we can’t go higher, but you would need a counteroffer”.

For anything other than massively expensive purchases or job offers, negotiating doesn’t really seem worth the time and tends to give off vibes as a difficult customer or a cheapskate (at least in the U.S.)

hogrider2• 4 years ago

In countries with a haggle culture every retail price is the most high fuck you and the horse you ride on price and people will thibk you are incredibly stupid if you accept it, unless you're rich.

maupin• 4 years ago

Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should do something.

mensetmanusman• 4 years ago

Negotiate the other way and see what happens.

WheelsAtLarge• 4 years ago

In many places outside the US haggling is the norm. People expect it so the initial price is way higher than what the person will accept. You through the same process everytime. You offer half and you work your way up until you meet or walk away. Overtime it is just a waste of time and energy. One offs is not too bad but if you have to do it for everything, it sux. I would hate for it to become the norm. I won't do it. I don't want to encourage it. Our current system is not perfect but haggling for everything is worse.

joshstrange• 4 years ago

I think I put haggling in the same category as tipping. As in I absolutely hate having to participate. Just mark up the food 20% and remove tipping, same with haggling, just give me a fair price and let's move on. Haggling seem so stressful and a complete waste of everyone's time.

nasmorn• 4 years ago

In India almost 20 years ago I learned I can negotiate everything down from the tourist price to rich Indian price to not so rich Indian price to get change on my banknotes price. It does take a lot of time though so I didn’t keep doing it. Also the last price point is ridiculous as a foreigner since you cannot do anything with the change.

Tell HN: Did you know you can negotiate price on many things?

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