Down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole

https://fowlie.github.io/2022/02/25/keyboards-rabbit-hole/

by fowlie • 4 years ago

260 468 4 years ago

fowlie.github.io

I am using a Kinesis Adv 2 and have just switched to Colemak DH myself. It's really hard to rewire your brain ti type on it, but after a week now I'm starting to get faster.

One thing that I still haven't quite figured out is Vim... How do people use Vim with an alternative layout? do you keep the same keybindings and just deal with it(hjkl are not nicely in line for example) or do you remap each action to the physical location it would be on a qwerty keyboard (i.e. navigating with mnei for example)?

lycopodiopsida• 4 years ago

The general advise is to leave it as it is. You should not over-rely on hjkl-navigation too much anyway, and at least for colemak-dh they are concentrated on the edge of the left half, which is acceptable.

xlii3• 4 years ago

This is a rabbit hole that I spent considerate amount of time and money and I’d like to warn some of those who are interested into going in.

Professional musicians don’t play on crappy equipment, right? ;-)

With this article sentence I wholeheartedly stand. It’s important to know and optimize tools you’re using most of waking time. Keyboard promises improvement both health and performance wise. Same with layout. Yet both unorthodox keyboards and layouts are considerate investments. Even more so if they are customizable. And it might be possible that they’ll never pay off.

I had situations that match common theme: I’m heavily focused on a problem. I’m coding away and that at some point I stumble and fall. I can’t remember combination for some shortcut I’ve been using in ages. Instead of working furiously on the problem I’m solving “where is the key” problem now. The other situation is the stressful one. I found out that under situations that stress me I forgot complex customizations. Keyboard layouts? They don’t work.

This get amplified if you have multiple keyboards to work with. I’ve used Dvorak for more then a year - didn’t stick. Split keyboards with standard layout - same. Non orthodox keyboards - even after more than year of using it didn’t work. For keyboard.io I went so far that I got multiple ones to try to avoid “switch fatigue” and ended giving them out.

Right now I’m using standard full size low key keyboard with numpad and additional F-keys for bindings. It works, has low latency (latency IS an issue with many keyboards), my hands don’t get tired because there is almost non pressure required (and I type a lot while getting older every day) and that’s the best keyboard I have. Right now I’m considering actually getting rid of tenkeyless keyboard for my gaming pc because lack of keys and all those combos to get to F-s just annoys me when I want to script something. It simply puts a problem in front of me that I didn’t intend to solve.

Craftsman has to care for their tools. I agree. But choosing battles is important too.

swiftcoder• 4 years ago

Right now I’m considering actually getting rid of tenkeyless keyboard for my gaming pc because lack of keys and all those combos to get to F-s just annoys me when I want to script something.

Tenkeyless are supposed to have function keys - they only lack the numpad cluster. Sounds like you went down to a 65% or so?

xlii3• 4 years ago

Yes, you're absolutely right! Forgot the name. That's 65% keyboard that I have.

red_trumpet3• 4 years ago

I never understood the trend of keyboards without numpad, F-keys or even arrows. Sure, it's nice if you carry your keyboard in your backpack, but on a desk I think it's more useful to have those keys.

johnebgd• 4 years ago

Non technical people don’t need most of those keys, kind of how non car mechanics generally don’t need pneumatic tools.

I’d never buy a keyboard without them but the trend is logical.

Rezilli• 4 years ago

The problem with numpad is, that it is usually on between your keyboard and mouse so it is more comfortable for me to just remove it entirely. But I think I would like to have it on left side of my keyboard.

dvdkon• 4 years ago

When using a mouse to the right of the keyboard, a narrower keyboard results in a more natural hand position.

It also helps when you need desk space for things other than computer use, but I admit that benefit is marginal.

kohlerm3• 4 years ago

There are keyboards where you have (programmable) layers. Moving your hand is very inefficient compared to just pressing a layer key with then one hand and then using keys in the home row (or WASD style) as cursor keys. Similar for numpad or F-keys. The main point is not necessarily to have a smaller keyboard to carry around, but rather to minimize hand movement.

LeonidasXIV• 4 years ago

As someone who uses a 60% keyboard that is without numpad, F-keys or arrows I can say that it actually isn't really more useful for me. I'm actually looking to switch to a 40%. But I can wholly understand your surprise - I was surprised too and my first mechanical keyboard was a G80-3000 - a warship of a keyboard, only comparable to the Model M in size.

I think this video[0] is a great introduction why people who don't take their laptops around enjoy using tiny keyboards.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGXZ1ReU54

ZeroGravitas2• 4 years ago

Embedded keypads are fairly nice and at the top of the slippery slope.

I never used to use the numpad layout, now I do but on shifted keys and can also use it on my Macbooks and other small keyboards.

(Note, a lot of the keyboard community stuff seems to assume you're going to use one specific hardware keyboard. I do have a bunch of odd keyboards, but I mostly use software to remap the keys rather than firmware, so I can be consistent across keyboards).

Maybe if I was plugging into more weird computers I'd need to bake it in to the keyvoard device, but at the moment software has been good enough for everything I need).

toastal7• 4 years ago

I'm happy we have options now. Personally I prefer 75% as I missed the function row from different boards, but others have differing tastes. Even if I hate numpads, and especially refuse to buy an off-centered laptop with one, others do prefer it. I find it very common in the country I'm in as the QWERTY equivalent here is also bad and puts letters over the number row with no Arabic numerals on any layer (despite being the default number style) so it's quicker to pop over to a number pad than it is to switch to an English layouts for Arabic numerals (though arguable the standard layout should change).

Aeolun• 4 years ago

Hmm, I never used the numpad, so losing it is no sacrifice.

Now I just have a separate calculator for whatever I’d do with the numpad.

bregma• 4 years ago

The only time I use the numpad is when I'm playing Dwarf Fortress, and that too will change after the forthcoming GUI update. I've been developing software using vi and the CLI for well over 40 years; I want my desk space back so I can move my notepad and coffee cup closer.

The problem tends to be in finding commercially-made backlit clicky keyboards without a numpad.

rgoulter5• 4 years ago

The size of the spacebar on a standard keyboard takes up the space of 6 keys; but people will push the spacebar in the same place. It's nicer for the thumb to be able to access more keys, and nicer to not need to rely on the pinky finger for so many keys.

I think most keyboards which give the thumb more keys also follow this trend of taking away the numpad, F-keys, arrows; often even the number-row as well. (Maybe just my bias, but I think most keyboards with more thumbkeys are symmetrical, too).

While there's a trade-off "moving hand to a greater number of keys" against "complexity, like layering".. I think the small keyboards make more efficient use of the hands compared to standard keyboards. -- My guess is that people who try designs with more thumb keys then think layering is pretty neat.

kitsunesoba5• 4 years ago

As a dev who traditionally has used a Mac (and prefers mnemonic key shortcuts even on other platforms), the F-Keys get very little traffic. For those a layer is good enough, because most of the time they’re collecting dust.

Numpads can be nice in certain situations, but the vast majority of the time they also get little usage from me. For the times when I do need one, I have a discrete numpad (KBDPad MKII) which I can place freely on my desk (so it’s not robbing me of mouse space) and tuck away in a drawer when it’s not needed. Best of both worlds.

flamwenco• 4 years ago

Because it's far more comfortable (and arguably ergonomic) to not have to move your hands 6 miles to reach the F-keys or numpad? Or to have your mouse so far away from your home position in the alphas because of the numpad and nav cluster? It's also very easy to have small keyboards that still retain arrows if you can't cross that bridge, even with 40%'s. And with a little bit of effort to customize your layers you could easily reach a numpad and all your function keys by barely needing to move your hands.

cma2• 4 years ago

The numpad is just on the wrong side for keyboard+mouse work.

WhyNotHugo4• 4 years ago

Having a numpad would force me to have the mouse further right by about 10cm. It's already a bit unconformable due to being on a weird angle for my arm, those 10cm make a difference if you sit on the computer all day.

Also, it simply takes up desk space. If I don't need it, why have it?

K7PJP• 4 years ago

When I’ve had keyboards with numpads, I never used them. Unless one is entering long strings of numbers, the top row is a much easier. I do need arrow keys for navigation while reading, though.

awelxtr3• 4 years ago

Craftsman has to care for their tools. I agree.

Except for the part that programmers spend far more time reading than writing.

An ajustable monitor and a good chair payoff way more than an expensive keyboard.

I still don't get the keyboard hype.

xmaayy2• 4 years ago

It depends a lot on where you work I've found. I recently had the chance to experience a team where they were given the full implementation logic by a product team, and your job was to turn it from business logic to code almost 1:1. I spent nearly all my time writing and testing, which was an interesting change.

darkerside• 4 years ago

Someone here does not Vim

AtlasBarfed2• 4 years ago

You're right statistically, but think back to what your most "productive" moments of your developer career involved.

It was probably typing furiously. Maybe not a constant dictation stream 150+WPM, but it was surges of input in response to a creative flow in your mind.

balefrost• 4 years ago

Do you read code while sitting on your hands? Or do you perhaps print out code before reading it?

When I read code, it's not a passive activity. I'm navigating and searching. Sometimes I bring up external documentation. In short, I'm interacting with my computer. For me, reading code requires typing.

mszcz• 4 years ago

I tried to love mechanical keyboards, I really did. I think I romanticized it too much. Maybe it was a form of procrastination ("I'm sure I'll finally stop slacking off when I have the right keyboard!"). In the end however, hundreds of dollars later, no matter what I tried I always came back to Logitech MX Keys. It's low profile, wireless and pleasant to type on. The only mechanical keyboard I think came close to a daily driver, that I still have, is Keychron K1. That's probably because of it's low profile keys. Other than that I sold all others and kinda gave up.

That of course doesn't mean I shit on the whole keyboard industry. I can appreciate a wonderful, thoughtful design that's tailored to someone's specific need. However, turns out that in that particular area I'm a basic bitch :P

gompertz• 4 years ago

Logitech MX Keys user here as well. It's an excellent keyboard... And I dabbled in lots of mechanical keyboards as well. The ability to switch between 3 computers is also brilliant. The keyboard looks mature and professional, which somewhat matters to me too.

gilbetron• 4 years ago

Professional musicians don’t play on crappy equipment, right? ;-)

Jack White (of White Stripes) makes and plays a guitar with a bottle, a board, a string, and a pickup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_F7aiOvdwE

brimble2• 4 years ago

That's a variant of a diddley bow guitar (there are other names, too). There's a larger variety that goes by a bunch of names that you lean against a wall to play. Traditionally, you'd source the wire from a worn-out broom. It was the first instrument for a lot of early blues guitarists. (obviously, the old-school versions don't have electric pick-ups, but this is otherwise pretty much a standard build for one)

yonaguska• 4 years ago

I've recently made the switch to Colemak on an ortholinear split keyboard. It's different enough that I can switch back to qwerty on a standard keyboard without my brain getting too confused, but Colemak is similar enough that I was able to learn it relatively quickly. An added bonus, learning a new layout actually made me a better qwerty typist on standard keyboards, even if I'm a little slower now when I switch back, I've noticed I do a lot less reaching and moving off the home row.

cstrat• 4 years ago

Wonder why they didn't try the Planck from ZSA. I use it as my daily driver. It did take about a month to get used to, but now I am just as fast at typing as previously - and my fingers are moving much, much less.

I still get wrist strain because the angle of my hands which the Moonlander would have fixed... however I heard a big issue with the Moonlander is you need to always look at your hands before you begin to type - because you cant take your hand away to use the mouse and find that keyboard half again

vulcan012• 4 years ago

you cant take your hand away to use the mouse and find that keyboard half again

I used to have this issue. Then I realized that if you tilt the Moonlander, there's a gap between the thumb cluster and the rest of the keyboard. Locating the half of the keyboard is a matter of just moving your hand towards the keys until your thumb slides into that gap. (It sounds complicated but in reality it isn't.)

Labo333• 4 years ago

Just sharing my personal experience there.

During isolation I bought my first mechanical keyboard (a cheap Qisan Magicforce 68, that I wholeheartly recommend). I quickly learned to use it and still love it at home.

A few months ago I bought a kinesis advantage for my office. I'm fully used to it (although it took me a while to stop hitting wrong keys).

When I bought both keyboards, I already knew how to touch type and went back to typeracer, keybr and monkeytype. My speed did not increase that much and I still get my fastest speeds on my macbook pro integrated keyboard.

The main reason why I use an external keyboard is to solve my back problems, by using a stand or an external screen.

In particular, I get my slowest typing speeds on my kinesis advantage. It is NOT built for speed, it is built for comfort. It allowed me to improve my posture considerably so it's still worth it.

PS: in my experience, using a laptop stand / external monitor helps with the lower back problems (weirdly). I solved my upper back problems by doing more exercise, and it's as easy as having some elastic bands near my desk and trying to stretch them horizontally behind my neck a few minutes a day (when I'm reading a long email or pdf or thinking or need a break).

PS2: a must-have on macOS is karabiner. I use it to have nicer keybindings for french accents (modifier keys like `) but also to configure function keys on my kinesis advantage and put navigation shortcuts on my mouse (logitech G502).

fowlie2• 4 years ago

Karabiner looks awesome, thanks for the tip!

gigaflop10• 4 years ago

I second the Magicforce! Linear switches (Red or Black) are probably best for it, but it's a nice balance of cheap, sturdy-enough, portable-enough and compact-enough.

It has little in the way of layout customization (3 position DIP switch on the back of mine), but that's just fine for a first board. It also has a mostly-standard layout, so if you wanted to get aftermarket keycaps, you don't need to sweat too much about compatibility or odd sizes.

Eji1700• 4 years ago

There's a few big upsides to going down this rabbit hole imo-

1. Realizing how much dead space there is on a normal keyboard (capslock, the space bar doesn't need to be so big, many keys you might want to use frequently are in awkward spots, like the numbers).

2. Being able to fully customize the layout to your liking. I don't think anyone agrees 100% on what the ideal layout is, but once you get more comfortable with layers and testing various layouts it gets pretty easy to adjust.

3. Finding out how quickly you can adapt to multiple layouts by just sticking with it. You won't be perfect the first time, and you might struggle to briefly when you switch back to a normal board, but people vastly underestimate how good humans are at adaptation.

There's also a bonus level of just having nice keys/switches. While this is the part that can get pricey, as someone who's typing all the time it really does feel like a worthy expense.

The major downsides being that it can get expensive fast (at least if you're picky), you might need some level of soldering skill, and there are times where you DON'T want to be the person with the fancy keyboard that no one else can use (I always have a normal one plugged in at work just in case).

Still i'm super glad I got into it. I'm a huge fan of 40% boards just because of the portability and the space they save. I'm typing all this, on a mercutio and my work daily driver is a low profile crkbd (I do analytics and some low end/intermediate coding).

The only issue i've ever run into is that I'm a fan of roguelikes, and while most games don't need too many keys, those in particular seem to have this habit of the designer trying to use EVERY key on a full sized keyboard, so i'm working on a layer for that.

LAC-Tech4• 4 years ago

I had a go at smaller keyboards - tried a 65% to see how I'd like it. And honestly - it was annoying. I know you can have layers and your hands move less, but having to press three keys for say, tilda (shift + fn + esc) is just silly. I'd rather just roam my hand around, my muscle memory is pretty good.

These days my main is an 1800 keyboard, numpad and all, and it's fine.

vladvasiliu7• 4 years ago

I know you can have layers and your hands move less, but having to press three keys for say, tilda (shift + fn + esc) is just silly. I'd rather just roam my hand around, my muscle memory is pretty good.

Yup. That's why the best format for me is the "84 key" or "75%", which is roughly "laptop layout". You get all the Fx keys, arrows, home/end/etc, but no numpad, and it's smaller than the "tenkeyless" format.

I find it much more comfortable for having the mouse closer. For some reason, this format doesn't seem as widespread as the one without the Fx row.

CarVac• 4 years ago

Layers need more thumb keys than a standard keyboard allows, in my opinion.

kitsunesoba5• 4 years ago

That tilde combo thing is why I only use 60% and 65% keyboards that offer the layout option known as “split backspace” — that is, the backspace key is moved moved down to where the pipe/backslash key normally is, and in backspace’s normal position there’s two 1u keys: pipe/backslash and tilde/grave. This also makes backspace easier to reach for my small-medium sized hands, which I didn’t know was a problem until I tried a split backspace board for a while.

In a similar vein, I also find split right shift which carves 1u off the right end of the right shift key to add an Fn key nice for improving quality of life on 60/65% boards. For me that Fn positioning is much more natural, plus it puts that duty on my right hand which is typically much less loaded down with modifiers than my left hand is.

bcrosby95• 4 years ago

My 60% doesn't require 3 keypresses for any key. This is with out of the box configuration (vortex pok3r).

Muscle memory is something you gain over time regardless. I was just tired of my keyboard taking up so much deskspace when I basically never used 30% of the keys on it.

rgoulter5• 4 years ago

The major downsides being that it can get expensive fast (at least if you're picky)

Or if you think "oh, it looks like fun to design a keyboard PCB". :o)

SilasX• 4 years ago

many keys you might want to use frequently are in awkward spots, like the numbers

Laptops used to handle this by having a toggleable numpad on top of the letters. That is, if you pressed a button (analogous to numlock) then the keys u/i/o would input 7/8/9, and j/k/l would input 4/5/6, etc.

I found it very convenient, but they stopped including that for some reason.

dspillett• 4 years ago

Some recent Asus laptops have a touch-panel numeric keypad that you can turn on in the trackpad, the zenbook I have being one of them.

It doesn't feel the same as actual keys, but it is better than nothing.

My dad uses numeric keypads a lot (habit from years of working in payroll & similar, lots of figures and basic arithmetic to type) but doesn't like the function-key-to-overload-keys-for-a-keypad due t the extra key and the key alignment not being quite right. He has a USB add-on keypad that he plus into laptops when convenient (i.e. when desk space allows).

AtlasBarfed2• 4 years ago

Not just that, but a keyboard is a huge section of desk real estate particularly the critical part of the desk (the part right in front of you), and that is really poorly utilized for a single function.

At a minimum, your keyboard should function as a port expander / dock for video, usb (all of them), flash, headphone ports. Most techies have multiple machines, so it should probably be a kvm switch as well. It should support both wired and wireless modes. It could also be a wifi network switch or range extender. Why not double as a power strip?

BeFlatXIII4• 4 years ago

Why don't keyboards double as a port hub? Obsolescence, price, and reliability. Combining more functions into that single item means that there is more than can go wrong. Keyboards are (were?) made for USB-A and don't need speeds above 1.0: the keyboard/dock combo should be something closer to a Thunderbolt 4 hub.

bikingbismuth3• 4 years ago

> the space bar doesn't need to be so big

When I realized this it was eye opening. I used to have an MIT layout Planck (2u) spacebar, I tried a full grid and it feels perfect for spacebar to just be another 1u key.

LandR3• 4 years ago

What does 1u mean here?

Is your space bar the same size as a regular key ?

JKCalhoun3• 4 years ago

capslock, the space bar doesn't need to be so big...

Why Capslock at all?

I don't think in two decades I have ever hit that key ... on purpose.

ek750• 4 years ago

I'm curious, I hear this alot, but when I'm coding, whenever I need to type out constants, they're in ALL-CAPS. Do you remap caps-lock to an unused spot, or do you hold down shift while typing? I'm usually in vim or equivalent most of the time, FWIW.

syntheweave• 4 years ago

There's definitely a reason to pay attention to your input devices - you can get better ergonomics, learn something about your preferences and sometimes optimize your workflow. I don't think the mechanical rabbit hole is the best value-for-money but it is definitely on the fun and aesthetically appealing side of things, and you don't have to get super deep into it with the high end customs and group buys to see interesting stuff. In the end I went back to membrane but with the split Kinesis Freestyle2 design. It's just great for me, even if I can't get the hang of using the shortcut keys.

Most recently I've been working reusing some old keyboards to create giant surfaces full of labelled launchers and shortcuts - I had to spend a few days working out what software solution I wanted but I'm about to do some actual device config this evening. I think the labelling strategy works when you explicitly go wide and turn things you would normally browse for or type a line for into massive quantities of macro keys. When it's a frequently accessed thing, it has to stay near your fingers which favors chording, combinations, modes and context sensitivity.

gyulai3• 4 years ago

I did have a phase where I was using US layout over German, because I do agree that US layout is just more suitable for programming.

But training my muscle memory that way turned out to be more of a pain than a gain.

As a freelancer, I'm frequently in a situation where I'm forced to use a laptop that a client has provided, with a German layout. Oftentimes I will not have an external keyboard on hand, like I'm in a meeting room and didn't want to bring one, or I'm on a plane or train.

In order to make that work, you'd need to be a pretty disciplined typist who doesn't rely on the labels on the keys at all so as not to be confused by them when they're in a different layout.

Back in those days, there were also many edge cases, like the login screen etc., where you couldn't customize your layout away from some default that the client has configured.

Also: Most of the pain comes from curly braces. So when you're doing Python & Nim you're mostly okay using a European layout. I also think it's probably not a coincidence that the people behind those languages are Europeans, Guido van Rossum and Andreas Rumpf.

newaccount74• 4 years ago

I also switched to a US layout from German layout. It took me a while to get used to typing Umlauts (on a Mac, you type option-u followed by a/o/u to get ä/ü/ö), but after a few months it became very natural.

My home computer is in the living room shared with my family, it still has a German layout, so I switch between US and German pretty often. I can type on both keyboards fluently. Somehow my brain knows that the computers have different keyboard layouts.

The only thing that still confuses me is a cheap backup keyboard that I have (when bluetooth doesn't work), which has a UK layout....

wink• 4 years ago

I guess I'm one of the odd people who have their work machines (and linux laptops( on US Intl and main machine at home on de-qwertz - so I change once per day (on a work day, and when I am using mine at home that evening).

It mostly works, I'm absolutely trained to expect qwerty, but my keyboard at home (G710+) tells my muscle memory to start typing with a German layout now. I've not had to use any clients' laptops for many years but I could see the problem, I have it when someone hands me a ThinkPad with German layout for example, but I'm willing to tolerate to type garbage once a month in exchange for being able to work with the layout I actually prefer.

kohlerm3• 4 years ago

I am German and I use the US (Colemak) layout,because the German layout is very annoying for programming. I rarely use my laptops keyboard. I would rather carry a smaller external keyboard around (Atreus or similar) if I would need to use Laptops I do not own.

gyulai3• 4 years ago

Hmm. Yeah. Come to think of it, it may be worth another round of experimentation.

Does anyone have experience with using stickers? Can anyone recommend a good product there? -- maybe that would help with the awkwardness of internal laptop keyboards.

Dagonfly• 4 years ago

I can't go without EurKey [1] at this point. It's the US qwerty layout, but AltGr can be used to type pretty much all Western European characters, e.g. ö==AltGr+o. It's available on most linux distros out-of-the-box!

I can still type on a German layout, but only in German. I think the language change provides enough of a "context switch" for my brain.

[1] https://eurkey.steffen.bruentjen.eu/layout.html

vladvasiliu7• 4 years ago

Actually, you don't even need that! The US Mac layout with level3_shift is very practical and supported with standard xorg (never tried wayland): the win keys become the level3 shift, so you can type special characters with both hands. win+c -> ç, etc. You also retain both alts as regular alts. That's configurable, so if your keyboard lacks a righ win and is replaced with the menu key, you can use that as lvl3 shift.

The advantage is you get to keep both alt keys as alts. The downside is that you lose the Windows key, but I remap that to caps-lock.

Symbiote4• 4 years ago

It probably wouldn't help you, but others in Europe should consider the British/Irish layout: it retains the tall Enter key and the extra key between Shift and Z.

You gain £ and ¬ with the extra key (and € with AltGr), although a few symbols are moved round: # and ~ end up easier to type, ¬ is kicked into the corner, and @ and " are switched compared to the US layout.

Beltalowda2• 4 years ago

Also: Most of the pain comes from curly braces. So when you're doing Python & Nim you're mostly okay using a European layout. I also think it's probably not a coincidence that the people behind those languages are Europeans, Guido van Rossum and Andreas Rumpf.

There is a Dutch keyboard layout that is similar to the German one, but the US-International layout is almost universally used in the Netherlands, and has been for as long as I recall (mid 80s). I've only seen a keyboard with the Dutch layout once (and I've seen a lot of old second-hand hardware over the years!)

So in the case of Python at least, I think it probably wasn't a consideration.

Most German programmers I know use US-International btw, but I don't know how common that is.

gyulai3• 4 years ago

Ah, that's interesting about the Netherlands. I didn't know that.

I know a lot of German programmers, as I am one myself and I work a fair amount in German companies, and I never knew a single one who used US-International (apart from myself in the brief phase described above).

drakonka2• 4 years ago

Really cool (and expensive) rabbit hole.

My first mechanical keyboard was a Razer Blackwidow with Cherry MX Blue switches. Next, I bought a blank-key Das with Cherry MX Brown. Since then I've used an Input Club K-Type, a Tesoro Durandal, and some Logitech keyboard with MX Reds. I actually really liked the MX Reds, way more than I thought I would. So when I ordered the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard it was with Box Reds. I also still have an Input Club Nightfox waiting to be assembled in my closet - it's been there for years. I should probably just sell it at this point.

In regards to layouts, I too prefer US layout for coding. But I live in a European country with special characters and have gotten used to using that layout. The UHK, however, will come with a US layout and I'll map the special characters to alternative keys. I hadn't delved much into special key mappings on my boards yet, so that'll be interesting. I got it with the trackball module in hopes of never needing to use a mouse again.

kayoone• 4 years ago

I've been using US International for ages to be able to use my countries special chars. Might work for you as well.

gigaflop10• 4 years ago

The Nightfox was one of the first full-on build-it-yourself keyboards I drooled over, but they were already a limited-availability item at that time, and haven't been in production for years. A relic of the past, as it were: https://kono.store/products/nightfox-mechanical-keyboard

At minimum, you should easily be able to get MSRP for a sealed kit. If I wasn't stretched for fun-money and display shelf space, I'd make an initial offer of $150 if it was sealed, or at least new-in-box with all the pieces. If it's the True Fox (split backspace) layout, I'll kick myself extra hard in a few years for not buying it anyways.

Aesthetically, it's still very pretty, and if you have your own keyboard shelf, it may be nice to at least assemble and display it. If you fancy yourself the tinkering type, design files for the board and case are available: https://github.com/kiibohd

drakonka2• 4 years ago

Oh yeah it's sealed, in the sense that all the caps are in their original sealed plastic packaging in the dark gray case. The original plastic packaging on the PCB and back-plate itself is not sealed, but I don't _think_ it ever was. To be honest I'm not sure if it is the True Fox layout or not. I think that was what I ordered when backing it, but not 100% sure how to tell - the kit contains both a regular backspace and the split backspace key.

I did drool over this board as well and then just never built it, and I think mostly I liked the _idea_ and beauty of it rather than the thought of using it itself (and now having ordered the UHK I doubt I'll ever really get around to building it). I might keep it around a bit longer for nostalgia reasons, but I know I need to learn to let go of these kinds of things at some point.

hughrr2• 4 years ago

Been down this one: spent a large amount of money, annoyed my family with clicky keys, ended up with sore wrists, left it.

Now using an Apple magic keyboard. It’s quiet, doesn’t make me hurt, actually has all the keys I need and doesn’t piss anyone off.

lmarcos• 4 years ago

I find the Apple Keyboard good enough as well. I really enjoyed the model that I used alongside my mbp of 2015.

jakemauer• 4 years ago

I have a collection of mechanical keyboards but yeah honestly the Apple bluetooth keyboard of that era, pre magic keyboard, was great.

chrischen3• 4 years ago

I've been using an electro-capacitive (Topre-like) keyboard with ultra-light 35g keys called Niz. They're actually lighter than the latest gen macbook keyboards and let me type as fast as I did on the butterfly keyboards, and they are completely silent.

Now all I'm looking for is a split compact version of these Topre-like keyboards. Pretty much 99% of the custom keyboard scene is just various housing and PCBs for cherry style switches. For whatever reason with electro-capactive keyboards there are limited options. If anyone knows of a split topre keyboard please let me know!

msackmann3• 4 years ago

I have the same issue with a keyboard that I love. I simply bought two of them and use one for the left and one for the right hand. Certainly not the sleekest solution, but it works.

andreareina2• 4 years ago

Are Topre(-like) switches even available on the open market in single-keyboard quantities? I imagine that the schematic should be the same and the pcb would "just" have to be edited for the different mounting.

gigaflop10• 4 years ago

Topre and other electro-capacitive boards are way harder to make 'special'. Their switches are not discrete, replaceable units like MX-and-friends. So, a custom board would need to have a custom-designed PCB, and would need custom-designed dome sheets, etc.

See: https://rmi-kb.com/niz-ec60/

Something that uses MX-compatible (or alps) switches is going to have an easier time being designed and built, because all you need to do is have an up-to-date footprint to copy/paste in your PCB designer program.

Behold, my one-and-only foray into making my own PCB design. I just followed guides online, and it still took me about $300~$500 to get this from 0 to a working and typing prototype: https://imgur.com/gallery/lZglox7

vladvasiliu7• 4 years ago

Don't you get sore wrists with the Apple Keyboard? Many years ago I used to have one, and I would get terrible pain because of the tilt (Fx row being higher than Space row).

This is something that quite a lot of keyboards have, and I find it terrible. The most comfortable keyboards I've ever used have been the Logitech Wave and the MS Sculpt wireless. I prefer the latter, since I never use the numpad, and the keys feel better. Overall it has a cheaper feel, though, and wrist rest padding is falling apart after some 3 years of use.

But I also love my Keychron K2 v1 with Gateron browns, which is flat (Fx row at the same height as the Space row). It's quite high, mind, but an after-market wrist rest has fixed that, and it's a really lovely typing experience. It's quieter than most "basic keyboards" (think basic office keyboards from Dell, etc) and the smooth, low-resistance keys are great for finger fatigue.

hughrr2• 4 years ago

The new apple keyboards are nearly entirely flat so no problems there.

rockbruno• 4 years ago

I'm also happy with the Apple keyboard. I have a Cherry MX Brown which was fine, but the noise annoyed everyone in the house and in the meetings.

Narann• 4 years ago

Interesting.

I switched to Apple chicklet keyboard because I thought is would resolve sore wrists I had with membrane keyboard.

Then I switched to mechanical keyboard because the sore wrists was even worse with Apple flat keyboard. Same path for few of my mates.

I didn't spend that much because I don't care about aesthetic (iKBC 60 MX Brown for work and DIY 60 Kailh white with QMK for home), never went back.

Cthulhu_• 4 years ago

Years ago I bought a Filco Majestouch, great little device, built like a brick. Still use it for PC work (mostly gaming).

But for work I've used a Mac keyboard for years as well, the numpad-less compact model. It's great and my go-to / default.

But, I bought into the Moonlander hype as well, currently typing this on one and trying to get used to it. I'm a quick typer but no keyboard warrior; typing this message seems to be fine, but coding is a lot more painful or difficult to get used to; I use the arrow keys, which are in awkward positions on the Moonlander; I use some keyboard combinations to select or navigate across whole words, that's some muscle memory that needs to be retrained and the finger combo seems weird. Feels like I have to stretch my fingers a lot more for anything that isn't just typing shitposts on the internets.

Might just be getting used to things, might be I need to relearn some muscle memory, or might be I should finally learn vim or emacs since that's apparently what all the cool kids do. I could never get into it myself, even knowing some tricks, navigating is still painful in vim to me.

vulcan012• 4 years ago

I used to have similar issues with the Moonlander. This is how I solved them:

coding is a lot more painful or difficult to get used to

Primarily, it was the symbols, {}()[]$ etc, which were hardest to hit for me. I put my Layer 1 "hold" key to the left of my H key (I use the QWERTY layout) and have remapped keys under my left hand to output symbols with Layer 1. It takes some memorizing to remember which key to press for each symbol, but it is not too bad.

I use the arrow keys, which are in awkward positions on the Moonlander

I used to use the arrow keys using my middle and index finger. Now I use my thumbs. It's a lot easier this way.

finger combo seems weird

Try remapping those modifier keys to an easier-to-reach key, or alternatively setting up a macro key (for example, I have a Command-space macro key because command and space are on the same thumb cluster in my layout).

rob74• 4 years ago

The problem I see with "improved layout"/"ergonomic"/"split" keyboards is that not only do you have to retrain your muscle memory to use one, but once you do that, it will be harder for you to use a "regular" keyboard. I have a boring old Dell keyboard at home, so at work (where we have a hot desk policy since Covid -> home office -> office space reduction), I can use any keyboard except for one specific desk where for some reason they have a keyboard with a modified layout where the arrow keys are offset and the block above the arrow keys is rotated 90°

creakingstairs• 4 years ago

I have a Moonlander and I have put off buying it for at least a year due to a same concern. It turned out to be not a concern. My hands seem to adapt to a normal keyboard whenever I use it so I can switch between the two freely without much trouble.

toxik2• 4 years ago

This applies to typing Dvorak and Qwerty as well, you don’t really forget. It’s like dancing, you can learn salsa and foxtrot without losing the other.

Addendum, for split keyboards there was no learning curve at all. Really you just put a hand on each split and that’s all there is to it.

sondr3• 4 years ago

Agreed, I spend about 70/15/15 of my time on my Moonlander, my laptop and a regular tenkeyless mechanical keyboard where my Moonlander is on Colemak mod-DH and the rest are QWERTY. I have no issues switching between them, which surprised me personally, I'm faster and a lot more accurate now with my Moonlander and find Colemak lots better than QWERTY, but given that I can't be bothered to fix the layout on my laptop I'll probably be decent at it as well for a long while.

jamil7• 4 years ago

Hmm I think that issue is overstated, I use a split keyboard in my coworking space, I go between it and my laptop keyboard at home regularly. Once I feel where I’m typing my brain seems to figure out pretty quickly and adjust.

vgel• 4 years ago

I just have Emacs-style capslock->ctrl and just with that I tYPE LIKE THIS on any computer that's not mine for the first 5 minutes. I almost regret it.

vladvasiliu7• 4 years ago

I have that issue. I use the caps key as my "wm key" on i3, and I press it all the time on other computers when I want to change apps, etc.

But somehow, the different layout of an ergonomic keyboard doesn't bother me. I can go back and forth between my MS sculpt and a laptop with absolutely no issues aside from the position of home/end which aren't in the same order.

doix2• 4 years ago

You'd think so, but somehow the brain adapts. I can type ~120 wpm on a moonlander/microsoft ergonomic 4000/my laptop keyboard on monkeytype (not that its a very useful test). Switching takes almost 0 effort. My problem is that my wrists and shoulders get sore really quickly when working on my laptop keyboard so I try to avoid doing that as much as possible.

mrtksn• 4 years ago

Exactly right. I'm have a Macbook Air M1 and an "Apple Wireless Keyboard" which is released in 2003, discontinued in 2015. Bought it 2nd hand, in great condition for quite cheap.

The size and the layout are exactly the same apart for touch ID. It is great, zero adaptation between switching desktop configuration or mobile.

Maybe its not the "elite" experience of the mechanical keyboards, it's still pretty good and it's definitely a privilege not having to adapt between keyboards.

It's kind of surprising that people optimising for minute differences between clickiness of different key mechanisms wouldn't bother to optimize for this.

ihateolives4• 4 years ago

I have three Apple wired keyboards (A1243, aluminum, from 2007 with 2011 upgrade) that are long discontinued now. Still use them daily, even with Windows, just have some keys remapped. These are really good keyboards. I regularily switch between these low profile ones and my mechanical Fnatic and have no problems typing on either ones.

microtonal• 4 years ago

I love the newest wireless keyboard, it has Touch ID on the keyboard (only works on M1 Macs), which is awesome for e.g. SSH authentication [1]. Also, I like that you can just charge them with the lightning <-> USB-C cable (no more battery management) or use them as an USB keyboard.

orlp2• 4 years ago

To go against the other comments here, I couldn't get used to it (building new muscle memory - let alone switching). Years ago I bought an ErgoDox. One of the main things I underestimated is that it has an ortholinear layout: the keys are straight above each other instead of being staggered like on a traditional keyboard.

I went from typing 110WPM to 30WPM. After a week of practice I was at 50WPM. Two weeks in and I was at 60WPM. Most importantly, typing was now an activity that required thought, instead of simply flowing. At this point I was sufficiently frustrated and felt slowed down enough I stopped and went back to a traditional keyboard.

I'm sure that with enough time I would reach my original speed and effort. But I have spent more than a decade building this muscle memory, and I didn't feel it was worth it to spend another decade building muscle memory on non-commodity hardware.

Nowadays I'm on 130WPM, so any barrier to switch is even higher. I do understand that my experience is very atypical since I am (supposedly) in the top 0.1% percentile of typing speeds.

hirako2000• 4 years ago

It isn't just about speed.

Ergonomic instruments increase comfort, which increases stamina and lower risks of injuries. Better ergonomy may increase per minute throughput, or decrease it. Rather measure throughput per day or even per week or longer; also factor in the potential consequence of injury leading to using the instrument at a fraction of the average user's speed for a good few months at least.

michaelsalim• 4 years ago

For me it's actually almost the reverse. I used to average 80WPM, not fast but pretty decent. Recently changed to use Moonlander[1], split keyboard + ortholinear. The first week was a chore. Even avoided the computer when I can.

But during that time, I forced myself to finally learn how to touch type. Now I get 90+WPM consistently. More if I warm up and actually go for speed. Learning to type very differently than I used to probably helped to make the transition faster (no bad habits).

So now I have the advantage of typing faster, without looking at the keyboard at all and better ergonomics (it helped with my shoulder pain). The biggest downside is now I can't type on a normal keyboard anymore. The problem is I never tried touch typing on staggered keyboard so it's like learning an entirely new keyboard layout. Not a big issue during the past year due to work from home though.

[1] https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/

samatman• 4 years ago

Ortholinear is just one of those things, I was tripped up for a few hours at most. I took it slowly in evolving my QMK map for an ErgoDox, but for whatever reason my fingers just don't find ortho layout confusing.

Other people really trip up on it, almost as badly as switching actual layouts to e.g. Colemak. If someone out there hits that point and wants to get past it, the requirement is to train out errors, using a typing trainer which penalizes mistakes by, for example, requiring a word to be typed correctly before the next word is allowed.

Breaking the errors is a prerequisite for any jump in typing speed, whether that's a plateau or a new platform. It's annoying but it's the only thing which works.

esyir• 4 years ago

This is why I went with building my own sinc. Its a bog standard keyboard, but chopped in two.

lm28469• 4 years ago

but once you do that, it will be harder for you to use a "regular" keyboard

Regular keyboards are different enough that switching between them already negates muscle memory for me

kache_• 4 years ago

I use an ergodox most of the time. My WPM on ergodox is like 130, my wpm on regular is like 110 (not because its harder, but because I'm less used to it)

If you keep switching as part of your protocol, it's fine

janlunge• 4 years ago

I can only say this is no issue for me. I'm currently using colemak dh on a dactyl manuform like keyboard and switch to using a macbook keyboard constantly because I use 2 devices. and even with the different layouts it doesn't make a difference for me. I think these bigger changes are easier to get used to than just smaller ones where for example the shift key is just a little longer that stuff always throws me off

l30n4da5• 4 years ago

I have a similar experience, but not with the split keyboards.

been using a 60% mechanical here at home for work and play for a while now (about a year at this point). best keyboard I have ever used, bar-none. The only problem is that my muscle memory is so damn used to it now that I find it a little difficult to be productive on larger keyboards.

Any time I want to move the cursor with the arrow keys, i find my right hand straying down to where the 'fn' key should be, etc.

not really a huge problem -- I'm working on replacing existing keyboards that I use everywhere with the same 60% model because I love it so much, but just soemthing I've noticed.

BeFlatXIII4• 4 years ago

I with ergonomic keyboards doubled the keys on the border between hands between both halves. I frequently reach for those keys with the “wrong” index finger and would get annoyed if the keyboard said no.

byteface• 4 years ago

The small mechanical keyboards are missing the small backtick which is also ё in Russian.

bbarn• 4 years ago

When I moved to Europe, companies starting giving me EU (In my case either danish or icelandic) laptops, and I can barely function without plugging in my US keyboard. I've found it so much easier just to learn key sequences to input the few special characters and stick to what I'm otherwise used to for the last 30 years I've been typing.

I know some of it is just that - what you're used to - but I have several native colleagues that have switched to US layouts for coding as well.

As for small keyboards, that's the old man in me I guess. At some point in my youth either with Turbo Pascal or word perfect, I got used to Ctrl-Insert to copy, Shift-delete to cut, Shift-Insert to paste. Not only that Home/End/Page up/Page down are some of my most commonly used keys writing code. Number pads are nice but I would take a serious hit without my nav keys.

suction• 4 years ago

I'm German and have never set foot in the US - but I've always used US layout keyboards for coding since I first discovered how much programming language syntax is tied to US keyboard layouts (because most modern widespread languages were invented in the US I guess, quotation needed).

The main reason is the easy access to brackets, slashes, quotation marks, etc. compared to non-US keyboards where most of those are only accessible via key combinations, and really awkward ones as well.

I believe in this so much that I automatically assume any German software developer not wanting to use a US layout keyboard for his daily work is not working efficiently or not deep enough into it.

em500• 4 years ago

Same here, never lived in the US, always preferred the US keyboard layout. Fortunately, here in the Netherlands the majority of keyboards are US layout by default. Biggest exceptions in my experience are

- ThinkPads, which seem to divided between US and UK layout here - Apple, which supplies the ISO layout (shortened left-shift, thin vertical Enter) by default, but thankfully has started to offer US as an option on their web store since a few years - Logitech which only sells ISO layouts in Europe, and all US layout seem to come from private import

keybored• 4 years ago

I believe in this so much that I automatically assume any German software developer not wanting to use a US layout keyboard for his daily work is not working efficiently or not deep enough into it.

Is that fair? I’m not a German but from another N. European country. I have made my own keyboard config which I use for everything. But I also have a keybind to switch to a normal (or our own local layout) when somebody else is about to use my computer. So if I don’t forget to use it it would seem like I just use the regular keyboard layout.

My own config evolved like this: first I had two layouts for my own language and English/programming, respectively. But switching layouts became a pain in the neck in my latest local job where we chat in our own language, code in English, of course chat in English with our foreign consultants... so I had to make my keyboard config work with all three (native lang/English/programming). I’ve never tried to get used to the US layout but I would have to use the same layout switching approach since the US layout (even the international one) wouldn’t work well enough with my native language.

Can’t say that I appreciate this kind of judgement. What do you know about people’s personal setups? Well, unless they out of resentment just decide to explain like I just did. :)

andi9993• 4 years ago

I think for C programming non US keyboards are bad. When starting on such a board, I was thinking who ever thought that typing { is simpler than 'begin' must have been delusional.

MrYellowP• 4 years ago

This is, to the point, why I don't like languages using curly braces.

ihateolives4• 4 years ago

Also Vim. That's why I give up on Vim every time I try to use it for some time. It's just not ergonomic with non-US layout.

Bayart• 4 years ago

I'm French and I take my US layout keyboard everywhere I think I might type. All software engineering tooling is just meant for it. It's a harsh lesson I've learned through the torture of using Emacs with a French layout.

Oddskar2• 4 years ago

US layout is definitely better than most EU layouts. It is still terrible compared to a custom setup however. So many bad contortions the fingers have to do compared to just having a sensible symbol-layer.

sime20092• 4 years ago

I'm in the Netherlands and I've rarely see a developer use anything other than US ANSI layout on a laptop. Consumer level stuff often defaults to US ANSI, but there is a bit of US/english ISO layout going around too.

A Dutch keyboard layout is a thing, but I've never seen one, just heard of some writers/editors using it.

akvadrako• 4 years ago

Dutch keyboards are the same as UK keyboards, but with a Euro sign instead of Pound.

Casteil• 4 years ago

I've tried a few different different mechanical keyboards over the years, and I keep ending up back on my trusty old Corsair K70 w/ mx brown switches. 6+ years and still going strong.

Mechanical keyboards are nice, but try not to fall into the consumerist trap of throwing away hundreds if not thousands of dollars chasing keyboard perfection.

kohlerm3• 4 years ago

It is the normal way to go. First mechanical, then columnar staggered (split) with at least 60% of the "normal" keys. Then towards 40% split boards :-)

norman784• 4 years ago

My experience with mechanical keyboards is that after 3 years of using one (Anne Pro 2), I still hit the wrong keys so often, last week I switched again to my good old magic keyboard (the one that uses AAA batteries, is almost 10 years old) and I can relate that my muscle memory is so fixed with this keyboard.

But still like the mechanical keyboards, maybe I need to try one with lower profile.

pfkurtz3• 4 years ago

I've been on the Kinesis Freestyle Blue for years and I love it. I paired it with a Logitech trackball that's apparently discontinued; I'm looking for a replacement as good. Their setup here is really close.

Long term, what I really want in a split mechanical keyboard: trackballs on both sides, near the spacebar, with intuitive mouse triggers built in. Maybe even a trackpad on one side, trackball on the other. That would be slick. One input device.

richdougherty• 4 years ago

I'm loving the Kinesis Freestyle Pro recently. The Kinesis Freestyle range is a fairly normal keyboard layout, so it's not a huge change from a normal keyboard. But there's that fantastic wide split and a panel of helpful shortcuts on the left.

The wide split is great for shoulders and the shortcut panel helps with cutting down on common multi-key movements (copy, paste, etc).

The Pro steps up from the other Freestyles with mechanical keys and programmability. I'm using the programmability to remap some of the modifier keys for comfort. Combined with the panel of common shortcuts, it's much easier on my hands.

A bonus of having a programmable keyboard is that you don't need to rebind keys in the OS, something that's not always possible to do in corporate environments.

https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle-pro/

pfkurtz3• 4 years ago

I did not know about the Pro, thanks for planting the seed of desire! I've yet to get into keyboard reprogramming, someday I'll take the plunge and learn to type efficiently.

One thing I really love about the Freestyle is that, with the stands and hand rests, it actually sits very nicely in the lap, for when you want to sit in the living room with the laptop on a coffee table.

ZekeSulastin2• 4 years ago

How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? For example, https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/qkd9xe/s...

pfkurtz3• 4 years ago

And there was a silence in Heaven about the space of an hour...

cehrlich2• 4 years ago

Mechanical keyboards don’t have to be a rabbit hole. Just get something in a normal layout with brown switches (or silenced if you need that) and call it a day. I got a Keychron because they have Mac function keys, it was less than $100 and feels way better than the short key travel Magic Keyboard. I have no desire to upgrade.

danjessen2• 4 years ago

You've just entered the rabbit hole. Keychron is a toptier OEM. But far from what a custom can be and is

joaodlf2• 4 years ago

Brown switches? MX Brown switches? Might as well not even put "rabbit hole" in that sentence...

I kid, I kid, it's all down to preference... That said, you can get yourself a single mechanical keyboard and call it a day, until one day you try a different board/layout with different switches. Maybe at your friends house, or at a shop, or more than likely: at work. You'll be forever wondering "I liked that...".

Keyboards really are a special tool for us. I've spent considerable amount of time and money on them, and I consider myself fairly frugal (well, in non keyboard related matters). All to say, it's very easy to fall into this rabbit hole, especially when you spend so much time working with these things...

cehrlich2• 4 years ago

I did actually "upgrade" my Keychron to Boba U4 switches (a popular choice for silent switches) because my family found the noise that the Browns make annoying. But to be honest in terms of typing experience the Browns that came with the keyboard (Gateron, which I believe are a cheaper replica of the Cherrys?) were totally fine to me and the Bobas are as well. Sometimes being a simpleton has upsides :)

vladvasiliu7• 4 years ago

The keychrons come with Gateron switches, which in my experience are softer than the Cherry browns which have a kind of "spring" to them, even though the specs say they should be the same.

Source: I own a keychron k2 v1 with Gateron browns and a CoolerMaster something and Das S with Cherry browns.

GlennS2• 4 years ago

You don't need a mechanical keyboard to get full key travel.

I do have mechanical keyboards and feel like I get a benefit from them, but I think you can get most of the way there with a standard non-laptop-style keyboard with keys that go all the way down.

Although interestingly reading this thread it seems like there are a lot of people who like the laptop-style keys, so who knows. Maybe it's all just muscle memory.

stavros2• 4 years ago

I have a mechanical keyboard I made myself, it uses blues (I've also used browns but I like blues a bit more) and I completely and wholly do not mind my laptop. I don't even have a preference between the two.

I don't get all the hate, but maybe I'm just too undiscriminating.

ZeroGravitas2• 4 years ago

On the other hand, I had to hold myself back from spending several hundred dollars on a 'limited edition' set of keycaps that had pastel dots instead of letters, and am typing this on a 36 key, Ortholinear/column split hand-built (but not by me) keyboard, so your mileage may vary.

danjessen2• 4 years ago

GMK Dots is great ...

gigaflop10• 4 years ago

You've never drunk-purchased GMK Mitolet when it was available because your classic 'flat' SA Mitolet was starting to get shiny? You've never entered a raffle whose prize is the privilege of buying a single artsy keycap? You've never bought the same keyboard, but with different color anodization?

You're probably fine.

michidk• 4 years ago

So I am using my Ergodox EZ (have to upgrade to moonlander at some point) for three years now. I also first learned Colemak and then Halmak and am now as happy as I ever could be with my keyboard setup.

msackmann3• 4 years ago

Having accustomed to using a Thinkpad Trackpoint, I am always struggling with separate keyboard and mouses. I mean, I rarely use the mouse, but cannot completely ditch it.

The ergonomics of a split keyboard is very appealing. For the last months, I’ve simply used two thinkpad trackpoint usb keyboards as a cheap but working substitute :-D

argella• 4 years ago

https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

Trackpoint under the thumb. Would have been better embedded between keys for your index finger like a thinkpad.

msackmann3• 4 years ago

Great, thanks, I wasn’t aware of that!

bodge5000• 4 years ago

The Tex Yoda II might be of interest, its just a small mechboard with a trackpoint and of course mouse buttons. Even more so, maybe the (also Tex) Kodachi or Shinobi, which are basically just thinkpad keyboards but mechanical

rcarmo• 4 years ago

Oh boy. I’ve nearly taken the plunge myself because I wanted a very compact, efficient keyboard, but most of these aren’t Bluetooth (I’d have bought an Ergodox Planck if it was), and after researching building my own I nearly pulled the trigger on it. Then I bought a €20 Bluetooth keyboard on Xmas: https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2022/02/19/1830

The upshot of my experience is that the Apple Magic Keyboard is still amazing - flat, compact, quiet - and that it could be improved by being split or angled ergonomically - and I’d buy a keyboard that did exactly that (or what I bought for €20) with a good, quality build.

(Alternate layouts, however, I believe to be a tad too much. I can and do switch between various regional variations of QWERTY on Mac and PC without looking at the keys - since I code in US layouts but need to type accented characters on PC and Mac - but going Workman or Colemak would make it hellish to switch between machines as often as I need to…)

marban• 4 years ago

I wanted to try an alternative to a Magic Keyboard, just because. Went for a Nuphy Air 75 — Worst $200 I ever spent in recent years.

thweoiuo3243• 4 years ago

Until you've made your own Dactyl with a Trackball, you've not reached enlightenment, young Padawan.

pixelbreaker• 4 years ago

I have done just this, Dactyl Manuform with trackball custom generated with clojure (horrible) and trackball brutally added in meshmixer then 3d printed at home, it's fantastic. The fun starts with firmware.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mpjnojraag3w1uj/20220318_103527.jp...

bluescrn• 4 years ago

I'll never understand the obsession with 'less keys' amongst the mechanical keyboard 'scene'.

I usually use a Filco Tenkeyless (Cherry Browns), and removing the usually-redundant numeric keypad brings the mouse a bit closer to my right hand, so a bit more comfortable and a little bit of space saved. But I can't see the benefit of going smaller ever outweighting the cost of re-learning to type. Adapting to laptop keyboards when used to full-size can be tricky enough...

andreareina2• 4 years ago

The common argument is fewer keys means less finger travel means better ergonomics. Hopefully someone with actual experience (i.e. not me) can chime in.

gsinclair• 4 years ago

I use Karabiner to create ergonomic combinations on my Mac, and consequently I use my full-size keyboard as if it were a very small one (while awaiting a proper mech keyboard).

And yes, I love having all numbers and symbols at my fingertips without moving my hands. I don’t type faster but I type more comfortably.

I also have the basic editing tools arranged logically so I can move/delete/select a character/word/line at a time, to the left/right. Again without moving my hands.

Oddskar2• 4 years ago

One can re-learn in a matter of weeks. The smaller the keyboard the less the fingers have to travel. I still have a full numpad setup with 44 keys and it’s a lot more comfortable to use than a normal keyboard.

toastal7• 4 years ago

I find tenkeyless a bit weird when 75% exists. It saves like 2-3 inches without losing any keys.

eertami• 4 years ago

75% is kinda new-ish, still. I've been using my Filco TKL since 2010, when 75% was not particularly available. If needing to buy new then I think yeah 75% is a good idea, but I don't think there's any utility in replacing a perfectly working TKL with a 75%.

gigaflop10• 4 years ago

I got tired of trying to figure out which of the 'Print Screen -> PgDn' cluster to shuffle around, or have on the top layer, which is why I moved from a 65% to TKL.

Plus, I feel like TKL is better-supported by aftermarket keycap sets, if you care about having the correct row sculpt for a key.

rgoulter5• 4 years ago

The thumb is strong, and the pinky finger is weak.

It would be better to use the thumb more, and not rely on the pinky finger as much.

Compared to a standard keyboard, these small keyboards typically have more keys for the thumb to access. (e.g. the planck has 2-3 per thumb). And once esc/tab/enter/backspace are used by the thumb, you don't need to use the pinky for these.

One way to use the pinky finger even less: you'd probably move away from using the pinky for Ctrl/Win/Alt modifiers, and use home-row modifiers instead.

I do think "layering vs more keys" is a trade-off and not everyone will have the same preference. But I think the advantages to using fewer keys outweigh the downsides.

rr8082• 4 years ago

I love the numeric keypad, couldn't live without it.

Beltalowda2• 4 years ago

I don't quite understand it either, I got the same Filco tenkeyless MX brown which I got ten years ago and I'm happy with it.

But I do think it's pretty neat there's so much to choose from. How many people are complaining about a truly compact smartphone in the size of the original iPhone SE for example? You can choose between "large", "very large", and "I used to have a TV that's small than this". I think it's pretty neat that all these options exist, silly as I personally may think some of them are.

skocznymroczny• 4 years ago

I went down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole too, luckily I got out before buying any of the expensive keyboards. Started with a blue switch keyboard. Found the travel time way too long and the high rise keys were hurting my wrists. I found myself typing slower on it than usual and making more mistakes. Then I switched to a low profile blue switch keyboard. This one I actually enjoyed. But in the end, I still got back to a scissor switch keyboard (A4Tech KV-300H). For me personally, the flatter the keyboard, the better. I loved butterfly keyboard on Macbook too, shame they switched to standard scissor switch.

Tsiklon• 4 years ago

For work I’ve become so very accustom to using a HHKB - in the office I use a HHKB Professional Hybrid Type-S. the Topre switches are essentially perfect for me, and the layout is so comfortable for me

But personally at home I’m really enjoying the ability to customise the layout, switches and keycaps. I have two keyboards which I swap between at home, a tokyo60, a hot swap board which emulates the HHKB layout, within which I have quiet linear switches “Prevail Epsilons”. And a Drop CTRL, a “ten keyless” design which is also hotswappable, in which I use “Glorious Pandas”; a tactile type switch like Cherry MX Browns, which I feel are better.

At this stage of the game I’m pretty much finished, like with hifi audio, it’s very easy for this to get out of hand quickly.

ReleaseCandidat• 4 years ago

Been there done that. First I got an IBM buckling spring keyboard. I had forgotten how much I hated the sound and force needed for a keypress. Then some with Cherry switches, they where also meh. Then a Topre clone, just to find out that I actually prefer rubber domes. Now I'm using a cheap low profile Dell.

imperistan• 4 years ago

I just started going down this rabbit hole myself after seeing a video of the Dactyl Manuform split keyboard. I'm thinking about getting one now. Is there someone on HN who works fulltime on a split keyboard? How does that work out for you? I suspect the Dactyl is very comfy but i'm not sure if that still is the case if you use it full time. The Iris looks great too. So if you have experience with that I would love to hear it too.

rbanffy• 4 years ago

I really like the Microsoft natural ones, but they aren’t really split - just arranged in a way that helps wrists.

I have a couple other mechanical ones, but all monolithic US QWERTY. My favourite among these is a Unicomp buckling spring behemoth with 122 keys, but it is the antithesis of these smaller mechanicals.

meepmorp• 4 years ago

I use a Moonlander full time and I like it a lot. The split layout has more or less completely eliminated the shoulder pain, which for me was caused by sleep injuries (I am an unconscious contortionist) and hunching my shoulders to get my wrists into a comfortable position.

There was definitely an adjustment period, but it was completely worth it for me.

Symbiote4• 4 years ago

I used a normal (Logitech/Microsoft) split keyboard since university, since I was scared when a student a couple of years older than me got RSI and couldn't type for weeks.

These wore out about 2 years ago, and I couldn't find a similar replacement. I bought an ErgoDash [1] instead. It has a few additional keys compared to the Iris. I have one at work and another at home, and to make them more similar to the broken keyboards I 3D printed angled bases. I use them for 99% of my typing.

I should probably have tried a Kinesis Advantage 2 first, but it seemed like too much of a jump.

I'm partway through 3D printing/assembling a Lagrange keyboard [2], which is similar to the Dactyl. I will add the F1-F12 keys to my print, as they're the only thing I miss on my ErgoDash -- if a shortcut in my IDE is Ctrl+Shift+F10, it's nice for it to be that, not Ctrl+Shift+Fn+0.

I made [3] to help others see what's available.

[1] https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash/

[2] https://github.com/dpapavas/lagrange-keyboard

[3] https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/

blaxis• 4 years ago

I use a dactyl manuform 4x5 with the miryoku layout. I took some time getting used to the key placement and mod taps but it's impressive how little one moves their hands when typing, even for numbers and symbols. Hasn't changed how fast I type though.

halfdan• 4 years ago

I switched to the Kinesis Advantage 2 about 9 months ago (https://geekmonkey.org/learning-to-type-dvorak/) and couldn't be happier. It takes quite a while to rewire the brain (at least it did for me) but I feel a lot more confident and a tad bit faster than I was before I switched.

ttrmw• 4 years ago

Iris user here. Hate being without it now, it's extremely comfortable. The stagger makes so much sense but it took weeks to get back up to speed.

I use a tall book between the halves for additional tenting height, and have my setup such that my elbows are elevated to compensate for how high off the desk my wrists need to be - not a fan of wrist-rests.

Interested in a dactyl next, for sure.

ichugwindex• 4 years ago

This split keyboard is pretty unique: https://www.angrymiao.com/am-hatsu/

runiq• 4 years ago

I'm working full-time as a sysadmin on a first-gen Ergodox. It's nice; I can put writing implements between the keyboard halves. Or food. :)

Apart from that, it's just… different. I'm still using normal keyboards on trips to the data center or when doing customer support, but the general day-to-day is done on the Ergodox. When I use normal keyboards/layouts, I have to look at the keys to type, but then I'm almost as fast as on the Ergodox. (Not that I was that fast to begin with, maybe 50–60wpm?)

I'm also using a Majestouch Minila Air at home, which is a regular (i.e. non-split) 65% BT keyboard with Cherry Browns. It also uses the same 'base layout' as the Ergodox (NEO2), but the modifiers are in different positions. From time to time, I also use a laptop keyboard (Thinkpad X1 Carbon), which is close enough to the Minila that it hardly matters.

You get used to it after a while. For what it's worth, I'm 37.

jmyeet3• 4 years ago

I honestly don't understand the mechanical keyboard hype. I've now owned and used several but I prefer a plain old low profile keyboard like the Apple keyboards. I have a theory about this.

I notice that some people like to stab the keys. They seem to use an excessive amount of force. I've always been all about using the least effort possible so low-profile keyboards seemed optimal to me. You just need barely a touch to register a keystroke. Mechanical keyboards seem built for excessive travel time in comparison.

I have no evidence of this but I really do wonder if excessive typing force contributes to RSI/CTS.

The author here really did go down a rabbit hole and I suggest that as soon as you look at changing layouts, you've perhaps gone a bit too far. At some point you'll be using a keyboard that isn't yours. The universality of QWERTY (or whatever the equivalent is in your locale) has virtues all of its own.

My only real objection to mechanical keyboards is people who use super-clacky keyboards in an open-plan environment. That's just antisocial and inconsiderate.

vladvasiliu7• 4 years ago

I notice that some people like to stab the keys. They seem to use an excessive amount of force. I've always been all about using the least effort possible so low-profile keyboards seemed optimal to me. You just need barely a touch to register a keystroke. .

This is interesting. I find that my mechanical keyboard (using Gaterown Brown switches) is the one that requires the least amount of force to operate. I also get the least (basically none) pressed keys without intention (say when resting my hands on the keyboard while thinking).

This is actually to the point that when I switch to my MBP (2013 model) or HP laptop, I usually tend to miss some keys because I don't press hard enough. I really dislike the "full up" or "full down" way of working of these keyboards.

Mechanical keyboards seem built for excessive travel time in comparison

But this is how you prevent the "shock" from bottoming-out: you don't press the key 'all the way'. With rubber keyboards and very short travel, I'm not able to react fast enough to stop pressing before it hits the bottom.

My only real objection to mechanical keyboards is people who use super-clacky keyboards in an open-plan environment. That's just antisocial and inconsiderate.

Oh yeah. Even though I love my brown keys and consider them quite quiet, I use a "normal" keyboard at work, out of consideration for my colleagues.

jmyeet3• 4 years ago

But this is how you prevent the "shock" from bottoming-out: you don't press the key 'all the way'.

A light touch seems to me to be an all-round better solution to this.

I first learned to type on an old mechanical typewriter where force was required and travel time was inescapable. Soon thereafter I switched to an IBM electric typewriter and you just can't ever go back. It would be interesting to compare the feel now.

Whatever the case I barely want to move my fingers at all.

dkdbejwi383• 4 years ago

I've been through the same cycle. I also found that it matches the cycle of customising everything (IDE, build toolchain, OS, hacky meta-programming things) once you have a little bit of knowledge, before falling back to mostly defaults once you get more experience. Less friction is underrated.

ihateolives4• 4 years ago

I honestly don't understand the mechanical keyboard hype. [...] I notice that some people like to stab the keys. They seem to use an excessive amount of force. I've always been all about using the least effort possible so low-profile keyboards seemed optimal to me.

People, me included, like mehcanical keyboards because the feedback when the key registered is so unmistakably clear both on the way down and on the way up. The worst kind of keyboard is the mushy one where you can't blind type because there's no clear mechanical feedback whether keypress actually registered or not. I'm one of those people who can unconcisously matches the sounds of keypresses to characters typed so when those are out of sync, I notice. The least effort principle doesn't contradict this. I love typing on both of my old Mac wired keyboard as well as my mechanical with inch-high keys.

brailsafe3• 4 years ago

I love typing on both of my old Mac wired keyboard as well as my mechanical with inch-high keys.

I find that hard to believe, if what you like is meaningful feedback. I'm in the same camp as the parent, in that I don't like mech keyboards (MS Sculpt for life), but the old apple non-chiclet keys were so mushy to me. I would always prefer to re-map a commodity dell keyboard with similar looking keys but more satisfying click.

gigaflop10• 4 years ago

I remember when I was younger, having gone through a few 'gaming' keyboards that were just standard rubber-dome type with extra lights, 'missing' some keystrokes because the dome had been worn out. Most notable, having to rock my finger certain ways while using W in videogames. I'd have to use a somewhat aggressive amount of force to reliably actuate it.

The first mechanical keyboard I got wowed me with how smooth and consistent the switches felt, compared to what I was used to. They were linears (Cherry MX Reds, on a Corsair k95, which was technically a hybrid board that still had some rubber domes), but the consistency alone was a godsend. I still had heavy hands, but have since eased up a bit.

I no longer tolerate a mushy keyboard that behaves inconsistently. I used to bring a keyboard to and from the office every day, just to avoid dealing with the standard $15 cheapo that is usually offered at the office.

gempir• 4 years ago

I think for me 90% of the joy of a mechanical keyboard is customization.

- You get to chose the keycaps

- You get to chose the switch type

- With QMK/VIA you get to completely change the way your keyboard works (If I had this on a Apple Magic Keyboard I might have been happy with it)

I don't want some crappy software that achieves this, none ever work as good as a firmware solution. I plug my keyboard into any PC and only send the commands I want.

You can configure a mechanical keyboard to be even less silent than the Apple Magic Keyboard. I have some colleagues who really hammer down on those Magic Keyboards and they can get loud.

Also it sits good with me that I can have my keyboard layout in version control[1].

[1] https://github.com/gempir/keymap

Hamcha• 4 years ago

I think the biggest misconception about mechanical keyboards is that they exist to give a specific experience (clicky/loud keys).

Mechanical keyboards are all about choice, some people like to stab keys and want the super duper heavy-duty springs to resist their stabs (bottoming out, which is the biggest source of clacks, is usually seen as a bad habit) while others want their keys to be like typing on air. And yes, some are all about making it as noisy as possible because that's an option.

I personally have settled with Boba U4s, probably the most silent switches I've ever had, even more than a lot of non-mechanical keyboards, though the noise is but a small part of why I like them so much. They are on a split keyboard with many less keys than you'd find, which helps me have a comfortable hand arrangement and as little hand travel as possible. Anything else just feels uncomfortable and unnecessary nowadays.

mattlondon5• 4 years ago

Agreed.

I am currently typing this using https://www.cherry.co.uk/cherry-kc-6000-slim-for-mac.html which is a spiritual successor to me for the old mac wired keyboards that I used for years (I recently went back to the office for the first time in 2 years and the old mac keyboard I had there for several years worked for ~30 seconds then - enough to login etc - then just totally died which was a shame)

There is something about the low profile chiclet thing that makes typing a joy - your hands glide over the keys with minimal movements needed to register a press. Your fingers are barely 1cm off the surface of the desk so you can support your wrists or forearms without having to lift them up or use wrist supports or whatever. I feel so nimble and quick this way. I have owned mechanical keyboards and have not enjoyed their huge keys with huge travel - so fatiguing to type on! I don't feel like I am missing much from the mechanical keyboards, but I would certainly be keen in a mechanical chiclet if someone were to make one (provided it had the same dimensions & travel as a normal slim chiclet)

j7ake• 4 years ago

I find the height of mechanical keyboards too high (ie they are much thicker than apple keyboards) and it causes strain on my shoulders.

I am much more relaxed typing on a thin keyboard like the Apple ones.

yewenjie• 4 years ago

You might be interested in the low-profile gang of keyboards such as the Sweep or Gergoplex.

mkdirp• 4 years ago

I've been looking for a mechanical keyboard with a bunch of requirements, and never wanted to build my own, at least not yet. My requirements were loads but yesterday upon restarting my research yet again, I came across the Keychron K3, which meets all my requirements (wireless, 75%, plenty of other requirements), but what really got me was the slim profile compared to other mechanical keyboards. It wasn't even a requirement for me but when I saw it, and the reviews, I just had to have it. I've ordered it literally about 20 mins ago so it should be here in the next couple of days. I'm looking forward to it and hope it's as good as the reviews say it is.

sime20092• 4 years ago

==> https://www.keychron.com/pages/keychron-k3-wireless-mechanic...

d4rkp4ttern• 4 years ago

This is my experience as well.

Another under-discussed point: relative to a MacBook like keyboard, mechanical keyboards help in one way, but introduce a huge problem: the mouse. After using several mechanical keyboards (including Keychron 3) with a an ultra wide monitor setup, I recently just happened to switch back to using my 2021 MacBook Pro, and the trackpad was an absolute relief to my shoulders. The fact that that you can move and click with both your thumbs is a big plus.

If there is a setup that nicely combines the best of both worlds ( Mech keyboard plus trackpad nicely placed) I would love to hear of it.

ZekeSulastin2• 4 years ago

I stuck an Apple Magic Trackpad between the two key wells of my Kinesis Advantage, and you can do the same with any similarly split keyboard. Having it below the spacebar like a laptop may be a bit harder/less comfortable though just because of the larger size of everything.

usednet• 4 years ago

I’ve used dozens of keyboards and have finally settled on the HHKB Professional Hybrid Type-S as my endgame, as have many other programmers and engineers at least in the Bay Area.

dm3193• 4 years ago

Also went down this rabbit hole. Did a review of the split keyboard UHK v2 which I highly recommend.

https://youtu.be/OPmoB8-11JY

Edit: Apologies for the video quality.

PS: The UHK might be of interest to some who aren't sure if a split is their thing. It isn't ortholinear, so the keys are staggered in the usual way. It also allows the keyboard to be re-connected in a single slab if you choose not to use the split. I'd def recommend the split to help with preventing carpal tunnel or RSI.

synthmeat2• 4 years ago

My RSI (though there are confounding variables) disappeared after about 4 months using it. Few notes:

- Focusing heavy customization around the key cluster module very much helps with rare occasions I have to use laptop keyboards of mine.

- With trackpoint module, I whip out the mouse so rarely it's in a drawer.

- There are minor mechanical defects that don't affect functionality very much (or at all). Its build quality is oversold, but I don't mind. You will have to buy spare parts some day though.

- split is the best, because your shoulders are the key to posture

dm3193• 4 years ago

Yes, I totally agree the split makes much more sense than jamming your wrists together to do many repetitive motions! I like the way the UHK allows you to slightly shuffle and adjust your position - more/less angle/separation. Bit like how you can adjust your hand position on a steering wheel or racing bike to adjust your position.

What do you mean by using the key cluster module? I don't have it, but how does that help you when you need to use a laptop?

conjectures• 4 years ago

One thing I'd vouch for was the improvement in my RSI/hand aches I got from switching to a £100 mechanical keyboard with mx speed silver switches (low activation force). Absolute godsend as far as I'm concerned.

m2mdas22• 4 years ago

Someone should write article about "down the vim/emacs configuration rabbit hole" also :)

xmaayy2• 4 years ago

I accidentally went down that rabbit hole this week. I only realized how long I'd spent 2 hours later; I may never make that time back in increased efficiency hahaha

medstrom5• 4 years ago

...2 hours? Not like... 2 decades?

5tefan2• 4 years ago

I was almost down the rabbit hole. I stopped at Topre Boards. I enjoy typing and prefer it to any other board. Typing is my daily business amd to me worth the investment. I put corporate issued keyboards aside.

toastal7• 4 years ago

Personally I went to save a buck with similar but different NiZ brand electrocapactive rubber domes. I can never go back. I'd love to get something more ergonomic but electrocapactive isn't an option for most split boards and I'm too old to want to bother building another keyboard like my ErgoDox which now collects dust.

5tefan2• 4 years ago

I never tried one, but I read good things about them. A wider range of layouts and easier on the budget for sure. Topre is expensive.

heuroci• 4 years ago

@fowlie Have you taken a look at Maltron[1] yet?

1.https://www.maltron.com

fowlie2• 4 years ago

Wow, no this is new to me. Looks a bit heavy for my personal taste, but nice to see some solid quality products like these available on the market.

feeela• 4 years ago

Can someone, who uses one of those tiny keyboards, elaborate how to work at all (let alone effectivly) without the Home/End/Page up/Page down block or arrow keys? How do you mark a word? How do you jump between lines or beginning and end of the line?

(And I don't even want to think about having no F-keys - which would require even weirder key-combinations in many cases.)

mattlondon5• 4 years ago

They have "layers" so you can do some shortcuts and the extra keys become active - so e.g. activate a layer and now U, I, O, and P are home, end, insert , delete etc. Change layer back to normal and off you go.

aikinai• 4 years ago

There are shortcuts for all of those keys that I use even if I’m on a full-sized keyboard that has them.

MacOS has two sets actually, one with command and arrows and one with control using Emacs shortcuts.

OskarS• 4 years ago

You don't really need those keys for that, there are almost always various chords that do that. macOS, in particular, has "Emacs-light" keybindings in most edit fields: Ctrl-A goes to the beginning of a line, Ctrl-E goes to the end, Alt-Backspace erases a word, etc. Of course, if you use Vim-style keys, you use normal mode for all that stuff.

In general though, custom mechanical keyboards have firmware that can be programmed with "layers": hold down a certain key (or toggle) and layers get activated which changes the meanings of keys. This is the way those very minimal keyboards (which doesn't even necessarily have a number row) can work for daily use. If you want the keys badly, just program your firmware appropriately.

kitsunesoba5• 4 years ago

Yep, for me the home/end/etc keys rarely got use because I’ve been using the macOS text navigation bindings instead (though I’ve been using Cmd-arrows in place of Ctrl-A, Ctrl-E, etc for moving to start/end of doc, line, etc).

tremon3• 4 years ago

I use a 70-key Redox, not sure if you would classify that as a tiny keyboard. I have all the navigation keys available in my primary layout. Since I'm a vim user, I mark words exactly as I would on a normal-size keyboard: using vW.

I do not have F-keys in my default layout, and I don't miss them as I rarely used them on a normal-size keyboard anyway. But if I do need them, they're just one layer shift away: Fn+1 gives me F1.

Do note that layers can be activated permanently, not just through chording. In my layout, tapping Fn twice turns the right half of the keyboard into a numpad layout so I can do quick data-entry. And in that layer I also have a Tab key under my right hand so I can do both horizontal and vertical data entry. On a normal keyboard, the missing Tab key always forced me to keep both hands on the keyboard when using the Numpad.

SxC97• 4 years ago

I never understood why people needed keys like home and end until I had to switch from MacOS to Windows for work. Turns out, MacOS has some (IMO) more sensible key bindings for those operations involving either the Cmd or Opt key + the array keys.

mattlondon5• 4 years ago

Over the lockdown period I went on a bit of a general keyboard adventure myself. I read and saw a lot about optimum keyboards and wondered if I was missing out on amazing typing experiences. After all, typing was my job right (programming) so it made sense that I spend some time and money finding the best possible tools.

I went through various full-sized mechanical keyboards, ergonomic keyboards, split keyboards (like the moonlander from this article, but different) and gave them a few months each. I would regularly check in with typingtest.com to try and get some real stats and see if my speed and accuracy was improving without me noticing. For reference/context I was originally trained with proper touch typing skills but have "evolved" into my own style (mainly using index middle ring for most typing with little & thumb reserved for shift, space, alt, ctrl, enter etc) ... average typing speed is about 75wpm with 99+% accuracy.

After a load of money and time, it turns out that for me, a simple low profile chiclet keyboard (e.g. like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#/media/File:Ap...) is by far the best option for me:

- mechanical keyboards are just too "tall" for me. It was fatiguing having to raise my fingers so much only then to push them down so much. The clickyness was a nice gimmick (initially), but I don't think it improved my typing at all, and just pissed off my wife. Yes I know you can get silent switches. Mine weren't. Returning to a non-mechnical keyboard definitely felt "bad" afterwards, but the adjustment takes a couple of minutes.

- ergonomic keyboards were cool - I really enjoyed them and I kinda had this mental image in my head where I was kinda typing on a beachball. I really liked it, but it seems you cannot get a decent quality ergonomic keyboard with low-profile keys so you ended up with the same finger fatigue you get form a mechanical keyboard.

- the split layout keyboard was a mind fuck - somehow just separating out the two halves seemed to reduce my brain down into something akin to a never-used-a-computer-before level of ineptitude. I was genuinely having to look for keys "Where is P?!" it just totally undid decades of keyboard layout knowledge and it was like it was the first time I was ever using a computer! Even when the two halves were approximately about the same position and spacing as the ergo keyboard, it was a real challenge. The whole time using the split keyboard (even with a conventional layout) was torture for me.

With a chiclet keyboard, I just find them so much more pleasant to use - your fingers can just float around over the top with minimal fatigue and you can genuinely "flow" over they keys, moving your hands fluidly as you make tiny movements to activate the keys, and the keyboard itself is like 1cm thick so you do not need to raise your hands above the desk that much. I would like to find one with mechanical switches, but it seems that all mechanical switches are huge monsters that themselves are like 15mm high before you add the base of the keyboard.

ChrisMarshallNY• 4 years ago

I've never been a touch-typist, so my relationship with keyboards has been different from many.

I need to look at the keys, so backlights and illuminated characters are important to me.

I like a "clicky" keyboard, but am prome to "one-off" misrajes. These are magnified by keyboards with smaller surface.

f1refly• 4 years ago

I see a lot of people here complain about the misconception that nonstandard layouts on small form factor keyboards require emacs-esque key chording to get rather common keys like ~ or |. This is completely incorrect.

I personally use a fullsize cherry keyboard in boring office grey, standard iso layout and the linear switches it came with. It has a navigation block, a numblock and the full function key row. However, due to the layout I'm using I never touched the numblock or the navigation cluster even once. There are four layers I use: The first layer are the normal lowercase letters and digits. The second layer is activated when I press shift, and inputs the same symbols but uppercase. The third layer inputs symbols. It is activated by pressing capslock or #. From there every common symbol I might ever want for programming language weirdness is readily accessible. The fourth layer I use is activated by pressing either '<>|' or right alt (alt gr). It activates the navigation cluster under my left hand and the numblock under my right hand. This way, it is entirely possible to only live in the 60% portion of the keyboard my hands are already on while enjoying all upsides the navigation and numblock areas provide. There is no chording, just like you wouldn't call it chording when you press shift to enter a capital 'A'.

Multicomp• 4 years ago

Somehow mechanical keyboard discussions often seem to forget what I consider to be the granddaddies of them all, the ibm, now unicomp model m keyboards.*

I guess it's because unicomp does almost no marketing or at least doesn't bother to get their stuff in retail stores where there tend to be racks of so-called gaming keyboards and other mechanical keyboards?

I can always know whether I pressed the key or not using a buckling spring keyboard, the same cannot be said for linear keys in my admittedly limited experience with razer yellow switches.

*Yes there is no doubt someone somewhere who has a space cadet kb or actual physical teletype still hooked up to a modern PC somewhere, but I'm talking about something that is actually available for sale on a mass scale by consumers. The model f revival exists for collectors and is functional, but is just bespoke enough to me that it's more of a collector's item than a mass product.

SamReidHughes• 4 years ago

Their keyboards are painfully loud -- distractingly so -- that I found it affected my ability to focus.

mauvehaus• 4 years ago

I didn't mind my M much for years until I ended up crammed in a tight space that's all wood paneled. The clacks from the keyboard ring in the space in a way that's actually painful. I have to put on headphones whether I'm listening to music or not.

minimilian• 4 years ago

There is a significant difference in quality and feel between the models M and F: M is very stiff.

TheRealDunkirk• 4 years ago

I always said that, when Unicomp made a tenkeyless, it would be a day-1 purchase. I'm typing on the "Mini M" right now. I had an actual, real, IBM Model M on my first job, and loved it. And you're right, the F switches are a little different. Less clicky. I find them less satisfying than my nostalgia. I had an actual tenkeyless IBM model M briefly, but found it unusable for programming without a third modifier key for ⌥.

timw4mail2• 4 years ago

I'm not sure how a Model F is less clicky...the mechanism clicks against the PCB, unlike the Model M, where the mechanism hits a membrane.

brudgers• 4 years ago

In 2019, I finally treated myself to a Unicomp keyboard...I'd had a Model M that came with a PS2 model 8085 that was on its way to the dumpster and so was free as in beer. I used the Model M for years until the limitations of the PS2 connector fed me up...

anyway, Unicomp isn't what it used to be. When it arrived, it seemed oddly lightweight, but I thought maybe my memory was wrong after nearly twenty years. Then it failed after mostly sitting in a box (I was planning to use it with an RPi as a sort of project to go lightweight).

Yes a keyboard that failed. Nothing would recognize it. Failed electronics.

I'd say fortunately it was under warranty, but Unicomp requires the owner to pay for shipping their keyboards back under warranty, a Unicomp keyboard is more than 12" long and so ships at a higher USPS rate, and thus the shipping was $24.

It did come back working and I put it up on eBay and wrote the rest off as sunk costs.

Writing up the eBay listing took me back to the Unicomp website to check my accuracy and I noticed that the weight shown on the Unicomp's website was more than two pounds greater than the actual weight of the keyboard I bought plus the box it was shipped in.

Maybe I just got a lemon. The weight discrepancy makes me doubt it. Failed electronics makes me doubt it. PVC for the cable rather than rubber makes me doubt it. YMMV.

gigaflop10• 4 years ago

I have a Model M that's a few years older than I am. It's great, and it still works, but is not as good for long-term typing as the keyboards I've used as daily drivers.

Clicky switches are a big plus for me, since they provide the audio and tactile feedback, and are just plain fun to use. The best clicky switches (imo) are the Kailh Box types with a little spring dedicated to the sound + feel of the click, but you're never going to find those preinstalled in a keyboard because they're still considered niche.

chevill5• 4 years ago

The model f revival exists for collectors and is functional, but is just bespoke enough to me that it's more of a collector's item than a mass product.

Definitely not a mass product. The project IMO is a disaster even for a group buy type thing. I ordered long after it was an existing product and tons of people received theirs already and come to find out at that point it was still going to be a year+ wait for most people and they under no circumstances will attempt to even ballpark how long its going to take. There's a lot of work involved for the guy running the project but it would be nice to know if I'm looking at waiting 3 months, 6 months, a year, or more. Delays are understandable but that's not all that's going on here.

shadowofneptune• 4 years ago

I'm looking at the the keyboard layout for this keyboard (https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/2...), and it doesn't appear to match any IBM keyboard model. It does not resemble at all the original Model F (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/IBM_Mode...). It is closest to the keyboard that came with early models of the PC AT (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/IBM_Mode...). The placement of the function keys, control keys, etc. is quite different though. What's the point of calling it a model F keyboard if all it shares with the Model F is its key switches?

graton• 4 years ago

I've had a Unicomp keyboard for over 10 years now and still going strong. I'm a fan of the buckling spring keyboard and really enjoy typing on it compared to other keyboards I have tried.

clircle4• 4 years ago

My favorite keyboard of all time is the kinesis freestyle 2. It’s a split keyboard, but unlike other splits, it is big, so i have arrow keys and function keys, just like my other keyboards. It is also not mechanical, which i think is a plus because all the mech switches I’ve tried are loud and require more pressure or key travel.

Cheap way to go ergo.

michaelbuckbee3• 4 years ago

Same. Because the layout is standard it's very easy to get going. An accessory that someone suggested to me that has worked out fantastically has been using yoga blocks to further tent the keyboards to an even better position and to hold them apart.

Pic: https://twitter.com/mbuckbee/status/1463146441745047559

clircle4• 4 years ago

Great tip! I have the first party tenting kit, but it is flimsy so i don’t use it

mattlondon5• 4 years ago

I found the extra keys on the extreme left of the freestyle 2 to be really frustrating - I kept inadvertently hitting them and triggering all sorts of weirdness.

Apart from that I found the split-keyboard in general to be super-challenging for my brain for some reason and I generally found the whole thing to be torture. This wasn't helped by a sticky enter key (literally stuck down) - Kinesis were prepared to fix it, but I would have to pay to get it send back and forth from the US which was excessive on top of the already high price of the keyboard.

There were moments of the potential - brief fleeting moments of totally relaxed shoulders, my hands 50cm apart leaving my chest wide open and generally pretty laid back.

Ultimately though it was a bit a challenge I wasn't prepared to put up with and abandoned the split keyboard experiment after a few months.

clircle4• 4 years ago

I have similar experiences with high end keyboards like the Kinesis advantage and the HHKB2. As much as the internet likes to rave about these keyboards, they just are not for me.

83457• 4 years ago

I'll stick with my CM Storm Quick Fire TK browns with toggle between numpad and standard keys. I may be the only one though because they discontinued it. I think it is the best kind of "ten-keyless" as it still has the numpad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1Q-B-h40w

kstenerud4• 4 years ago

Is it just me or do mechanical keyboard aficionados sound strangely like audiophiles?

I've worked on all sorts of keyboards since 1982, and I honestly can't see what all the hububb is about. The effect on your job performance is so minimal that it hardly seems worth worrying about beyond "is it comfortable?" and "does it annoy people around me?". It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most.

atoav• 4 years ago

They can, for sure. I am someone who values a good mechanical keyboard, but I just need one and it will last me decades.

Investing once into something that feels good to use every day is worth it totally.

As a musician (and electrical engineer aka someone who trusts measurements and blind tests over golden ears) I like mechanical keyboards because there is "more expression" to the typing. With black linear switches that can be typed totally silent (e.g. if I record, mix or my girlfriend is asleep) or hammered on if I feel like it.

It is sturdy, doesn't float around on my desk, the keycaps feel good etc.

RegBarclay• 4 years ago

Investing once into something that feels good to use every day is worth it totally.

My mechanical keyboard makes me happy. Does it matter if that's some kind of placebo effect or confirmation bias? Nope.

qzw• 4 years ago

In my experience, <any>philes end up sounding the same. Once you start enjoying something for its own sake, going overboard becomes the whole point.

pm90• 4 years ago

A good keyboard does have tangible effects on your job performance by reducing strain on your wrists. But once you get a mechanical keyboard, I agree the benefits might be a bit overstated or perhaps only folks attuned to it can really tell.

When I started programming I used the cheapest external keyboards. I thought the Mac external keyboards were supposed to be good (because Apple). Then I got my first mechanical split keyboard and it made programming so much easier on my wrists.

joaodlf2• 4 years ago

Hobbies that translate to your profession (like keyboards to programmers or headphones/amps to audio professionals) can very much become placebo.

Unless you are financially crippling yourself over the "hobby", it's OK. I have a few keyboards lying around (I've returned a couple as well in the past), I like to change it up every once in a while. It often gives me that little extra push to work on something I might find boring.

FeepingCreature4• 4 years ago

I have a Kinesis Advantage 2. It's not at all about performance, in fact I still type slower with it. The entire point is that I have pretty broad shoulders and so typing on a normal keyboard, my hands are at a very awkward "up-and-out" angle. With the Advantage 2, my hands are straight with the wrist, pointed inwards and slightly down, and need to move very little. It's pretty relaxing.

(Though whoever decided that alt-tab should require a crazy hand-spread gesture with the outside fingers spread wide, needs to have their head checked. And the function keys are an affront against all that is good in the world.)

2OEH8eoCRo03• 4 years ago

That falls under "is it comfortable".

_huayra_2• 4 years ago

You really ought to consider a split keyboard. I'm also broad-shouldered, and the Advantage still caused inward rotation of my arms (i.e. activating my chest muscles to pull my hands inward).

With split keyboards, you can place the two halves as far apart as you want, tent them (rotate them outward), etc. It's really an RSI game changer, especially if you have a sit/stand desk.

I think Kinesis is coming out with a split board version of it soon, but the Moonlander and Ergodox EZ are also good options you can get now (I have these).

Vanclief• 4 years ago

I have the same keyboard for about 5 years now, I type waaaay faster on the Kinesis than on any other keyboard hands down.

dahauns• 4 years ago

And the function keys are an affront against all that is good in the world.

"Classic" Function keys are fine for what they are - dedicated, offset groups of four that 1:1 map to your fingers, facilitating fast and reliable(! Tactile discovery FTW!) hand travel away from the home row and back.

It's the "make one big sea of keys" approach and the idea that every key must be reachable without moving your hand that lead to the terrible abominations we often get today (sadly, on the current MS Ergo iteration as well...what were they thinking?!).

rgoulter5• 4 years ago

I feel like "it's split and column-staggered" is different than "this switch has this actuation curve" or "it's lubricated with this grease".

I find typing with Dvorak so much more comfortable than typing with QWERTY; and it's a nicer experience typing on a symmetrical keyboard than on the standard row-staggered layout.

Though, yes.. it's an individual thing. I'd say arguing about keyboards is a bit like arguing over which text editor is best.

2OEH8eoCRo03• 4 years ago

They do. To me it's not about productivity it's about making my computer more pleasant to use. I've never felt less productive at work on a $20 Dell keyboard.

crispyambulance• 4 years ago

It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most.

The keyboard is actually a very intimate aspect of your interaction with your computer. For many folks this is important. Minutia about the "effect on performance" is not really a concern (IMHO if people are being honest). The real thing is how the keyboard FEELS, the sensory feedback-- sounds, tactile and appearance. It's also a way to customize something to your liking even if you're "doing a job" on the computer, much like wearing a tie of one's choice gave corporate workers an outlet for some individual expression back in the day.

I doubt anyone "argues" about keyboards unless they're being forced to use one they don't like. And most folks can do just fine on a wide variety of keyboards-- although the really alien-ones like the Atreus and those hipster ortho's necessitate a learning curve and motor skills development.

2OEH8eoCRo03• 4 years ago

It's also a way to customize something to your liking

This too. It can be another way to express yourself. The same reason people care about desktop UI, wallpaper, themes, etc.

black_puppydog3• 4 years ago

I doubt anyone "argues" about keyboards unless they're being forced to use one they don't like.

This!

I was fine with just about any keyboard I had, including random scrap ones I got from various employers whenever I needed one for some reason. The standard 10 bucks models.

Until I got my XPS13 2in1 and the keyboard was so abysmally bad that I had an allergic reaction to it and went all-in on mechanical keyboards. I finally ended up with one of "the really alien-ones": the Let's Tango which is a "hipster ortho" :P

Edit: had pasted the wrong quote :D

WhyNotHugo4• 4 years ago

"effect on performance" isn't just about typing speed. If my arms start to hurt and I need to pause more often and for more type, it's also a negative.

Oh, and ortholinear is really quick to get used to, and have improve hand comfort a lot for me.

maxmalkav• 4 years ago

I could not agree more with this (as a person down that rabbit hole) :-)

JustLurking2022• 4 years ago

I thought the same until I tried a couple, and then tried going back to a membrane keyboard at the office. In addition to better wrist comfort, I also find that I have fewer typos on the mechanical keyboard - my intuitive guess is that it's due to greater travel and resistance required to actuate a key. Everyone has their own preferences but, for something I use 8 hours a day as part of my profession, $100 for a decent keyboard seems entirely reasonable. Plenty of contractors have fancy trucks/tool boxes/tools that cost way more.

Also, it's not comparable to a stool for a guitarist - that would be my desk chair, which cost more than the keyboard.

tasuki• 4 years ago

I also find that I have fewer typos on the mechanical keyboard - my intuitive guess is that it's due to greater travel and resistance required to actuate a key.

In what way could greater travel and resistance lead to fewer typos?

Zababa• 4 years ago

To me they don't sound like audiophiles. The keyboard in this article is $365. Audiophiles can put $10 000 in a cable. A cheap keyboard is like $20, my current keyboard is around $100. If you map it to something like car prices, cheap keyboards are like old used cars, something like mine a new car, and the keyboard in this article something like an Audi. We're still not on the Ferrari order of magnitude, or even the audiophile.

kstenerud4• 4 years ago

$365 for a computer keyboard is well into the vanity stage.

timw4mail2• 4 years ago

The keyboard is the main input device for a computer. It's like a classical guitarist arguing over the best guitar.

That said, after years of trying different boards, with different switches, I only see three ranks of keyboards: mediocre (most cheap rubber dome), good (most mechanical switches), and better (the most subjective, Model F buckling spring for me). The improvement from mediocre to good is larger than the improvement from good to better.

As long as keyboard is not tiring or hurting your hands and wrists, it's probably good enough for you.

skeyo• 4 years ago

the difference being a nice guitar will sound better than a crappy one, and the purpose of playing a guitar is to create nice sound. sure, a mechanical keyboard may feel and sound better than a crappy one, but the purpose is to create input for a computer and it doesn't matter what it feels or sounds like (aside from enjoyment for the user)

bsder• 4 years ago

The improvement from mediocre to good is larger than the improvement from good to better.

This is broadly true of a lot of things. And the price change from mediocre to good is generally way smaller than the price change from good to better.

Since you mentioned guitars (which are a nice microcosm), one thing that has changed from the past is that manufacturing is now super consistent so when quality tracks price it does so much more closely than in the past.

In the past, with guitars, you could find the "stage queen"--that one instrument that happened to be made by hands far more qualified than expected and consequently much better than expected at the price point. The cost, however, was that often at a price point you got some absolute dogs that were terrible instruments.

With modern manufacturing, that doesn't really happen anymore. But, while you lose the stage queen, you gain the fact that spending $X nets you practically the same guitar at the same price over and over. This is better for the amateurs (a guitar at a price point is roughly consistent and decent) but worse for the experts ("unique" instruments that they can distinguish are nowhere near as common).

noir_lord• 4 years ago

At the extreme edge of anything you find the strange people, I like those people they are the ones who push things forwards for the rest of us.

For years I swore by the Ergo 4000, it was and is an excellent ergonomic keyboard however it's also huge and not brilliant for gaming so I had a look around at what smaller mechanical keyboards exist and landed on a cheap 88ish mechanical (plan was buy a cheap one, if I liked the format upgrade to a better one with the same layout but the cheap one was so pleasant I stuck with it).

At the end of the day there is a massive degree of user preference in this stuff, some people don't care about the keyboard at all, others find a bad keyboard crippling, in my case I switched to the ergo years ago because I had shoulder/wrist pain which is largely solved however I've found the small form factor mechanical to be just as comfortable with a wrist rest and it has the big win that the mouse isn't way off to the right).

augusto-moura• 4 years ago

If you spend too much time in one thing, maybe you should consider spending a bit of money in it. As a full time developer and hard user of computers in my free time, a good desk, keyboard and chair is essential. I will probably spend a quarter of my life in these, so yeah, it's worth it. Same logic applies for my bed and my smartphone

michaelcampbell2• 4 years ago

Every area of interest has its "cults", I'm sure whatever you're into has its as well.

For me, I like MK's, and I have a particular like. I type for a living so I want to optimize the joy. Maybe I'm overly sensitive about it, maybe I'm slightly up on the autism spectrum, I honestly don't know. My family has noted my oversensitivity to many things; tags on t-shirts, when socks (worn) or rugs have wrinkles or even if the rug-pad has a wrinkle; I'm accused of being the princess and the pea.

Your analogy is wildly off though; I suspect to push your point. The classical guitarist without a stool at all could still play, without a keyboard I could not.

There are 2 broad categories about working with things. One is you customize it to your "artisinal, bespoke" way and are happy about that. The other is you adjust yourself to it and get on with it. Either is valid.

"The reasonable man adjusts to his environment, the unreasonable man adjusts his environment to him. Thus, all progress is made by unreasonable men."

Sebb767• 4 years ago

I'm accused of being the princess and the pea.

It's "on the pea". This saying originates from a princess being so sensitive that she can't sleep with a pea below her mattress.

Sorry for being a princess on the pea about this one ;-)

tharne• 4 years ago

It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most.

Keyboard aficionado here. Why all the fuss over keyboards?, because it's fun. In particular, it's wonderful to have a product where craftsmanship is at the forefront.

pseudonymcoward• 4 years ago

It's not just you. There's a community on reddit called "mechanicalheadpens" centered around the overlapping interests in mechanical keyboards, audiophile headphones, and fountain pens. Hence "mechanicalheadpens".

grimjack00• 4 years ago

I did not need to know that.

codethief• 4 years ago

For the lazy: https://www.reddit.com/r/mechanicalheadpens/

jorvi• 4 years ago

I’ve talked about this with some of my fellow aficionados, that some things just have a spark, an ‘X’ factor and that despite some of those things not being your thing you can still appreciate the ‘X’ factor in them. This can be well-made music, a mechanical device (headphones, watch, gun, car, keyboard), a TV show, a painting, a joke routine etc.

I have no name for them but there is a particular type of person that can see the ‘X’ factor in Illmatic, a Subaru boxer engine, an M4 assault rifle, a well-modded pair of headphones, a Rembrandt and a clever joke, despite not being into hip-hop, preferring electric cars, being pro gun control, mostly listening music in their car, preferring modern art, and never really being much for jokes.

bhedgeoser• 4 years ago

They are an overpriced solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I've had membrane keyboards that were better than any of the mechanical ones I've bought.

brimble2• 4 years ago

I think the late-90s/early-00s Sun keyboards were membrane, and they felt great IMO.

bbojan4• 4 years ago

You're missing the whole split/ortholinear/reduced key count aspect of these custom keyboards.

modzu2• 4 years ago

its much more like classical guitarists arguing about classical guitars. a layperson could not tell the difference. but the guitarists have all sorts of opinions, and notably, not regarding one single quality: it might be sound, it might be feel, it might be the history of a guitar. similarly, the keyboard is your interface to the computer: i love my mechanical because it is a joy to bang on. it bounces around and is so tactile and satisfying to play with, i could code on it all day. there is no objective metric by which to measure this. like the guitars, any keyboard will do the job within the same order of magnitude (typing speed, response time, whatever), but the attachment between these special devices and their owners is legitimate

kstenerud4• 4 years ago

As a classical guitarist, I do understand and can easily tell the quality difference in guitars (which is why I didn't use it as an analogy).

As a professional software developer with decades of experience covering almost every keyboard type known to man, I can honestly say the characteristics of the various keyboard types aren't enough to matter, other than as a comfort or RSI or vanity thing. I've never found a $100 vs a $20 keyboard to affect my performance. I HAVE, however, found the difference between a $500 and $3000 guitar to be quite noticeable. It's hard to go back to a cheap guitar from a good one. It's not at all hard to go from a $300 keyboard to a $30 one.

I used the footstool analogy because I could just as easily see people obsessing over it like with keyboards, fountain pens, and audio equipment (getting high precision angle and height control, presets for different musical styles, different grip surfaces and build material, etc).

perardi• 4 years ago

As with everything, it’s possible to get just far too down the rabbit hole and chase increasingly marginal, and possibly imaginary, improvements.

(You should see my dad’s 8 tackle boxes full of fishing lures.)

But…if you’re a developer or writer or anybody else who is using a computer 8 hours a day, the keyboard does matter. It is your instrument, and not the foot stool—it’s the primary way you’re entering real information into the computer. So it’s not crazy to be a little picky.

chevill5• 4 years ago

Is it just me or do mechanical keyboard aficionados sound strangely like audiophiles?

In some ways perhaps. In most ways not really. There are hundreds of mechanical key switches and many of them feel significantly different from one another. There are indeed bad switches and there are indeed good switches but 99.99% of them fall into the "good category". There's no objectively "best" switch. There are so many types that are good and will last practically forever that its just a matter of personal preference for the way they sound and feel. Some people like quiet switches. Some like clicky. Some like tactility. Some like smoothness. Some people need ergonomic features like split layouts and tilting. Some people prefer standard layouts.

I have some very expensive keyboards (rare vintage stuff and modern custom builds) but in regards to custom boards, once you get over $300-400, you're basically paying for fashion/brand names/artificial scarcity/aesthetic craftsmanship and not utility. Honestly a $60 GMMK with a person's favorite switch (probably around $30-60 more depending on what you want and how big of a layout you use) and a $30-50 set of keycaps will get you 90% of the value that people get out of more expensive brands.

Audiophiles' hobby includes a bunch of stuff that literally has no impact on anything. For some things there's no added value even when taking only aesthetics/superficial stuff into account. There is audiophile hardware that makes a real impact, but there are also people that swear that their absurdly expensive accessory X provides a significant difference when hooking it up to a signal analyzer proves otherwise. With keyboards you are generally either paying for a fashion accessory or an actual discernable difference in the way something feels and which one you are paying for is usually obvious going in.

Both hobbies suffer from diminishing returns that hit hard and fast. You don't have to be a wealthy person to get a great experience from audio or mechanical keyboards.

xboxnolifes• 4 years ago

The effect on your job performance is so minimal that...

People aren't looking at their hobby as a job improver.

pozol• 4 years ago

A lot of people are saying it’s not about performance and it’s more about feel. I need to jump in that the performance gain is a big deal for me. You can program a lot of these boards so any key does whatever you want. So I’ve customized mine to be very efficient for vim keybindings, for example, and it has improved my coding efficiency significantly. So I definitely get the downsides of spending hundreds on the “next best switch” or whatever, but for me there are concrete improvements to my efficiency.

MisterBastahrd2• 4 years ago

I don't know how much of an aficionado I am. I had a Dell keyboard that I purchased back in 1996 that lasted me for about 16 years. Loved it. Thing was a heavy brick and felt great. Then I wandered around through the various membrane keyboards for years, just using whatever came my way. When I needed a new one, I purchased a cheap Red Dragon keyboard. No numpad, but I never used it anyway, and it felt great. Bought a second one, and even though it was the exact same model, they changed the keycaps. So I did what any rational person who always forgets to return things does and bought a KVM switch. I will use this thing until it dies and then explore my options.

runjake• 4 years ago

Mechanical keyboard user (but non-fetishist) here.

For me, it's about comfort and perhaps a tinge of nostalgia. It feels good to type on and I like the audio and physical feedbacks.

That said, my whole process was: I just tried a couple of mechanical keyboards others had, and decided on one (Keychron K8). It works well enough for me, and I don't go sifting around online for the latest/greatest mechanical keyboard.

scrumbledober• 4 years ago

I also have a keychron, and I love that it just feels good and gets out of the way. I like the tactile feedback of mechanical keyboards but i don't want it to be too flashy. (the windows/osx switch and extra keys are also a huge bonus)

tristor• 4 years ago

I've pretty much exclusively used mechanical keyboards my entire life. A brief stint where I wasn't using them lead to me having RSI, and I've since switched back and importantly switched to an ergonomic keyboard design. I don't think the comparison to audiophiles is apt (although I'm one of those too, of sorts), because a keyboard is the primary and most critical input device for both work and play when you have your life devoted to computing. I spend 10-12 hours on a computer nearly every single day, the ROI for splashing out $700 for a custom ergonomic mechanical keyboard is immensely better than spending that money doing anything else.

In pure EV/economic sense, spending big on a mechanical keyboard is a fantastic decision if you work/live on a computer.

ajford5• 4 years ago

I'm right there with you on the RSI front. But I do see GP's point on some of the audiophile feel, given the number of people who focus on the acoustics and appearance of their KB.

What KB are you using? I've got a Moonlander that I'm (pardon the pun) over the moon about. The Advantage 360 is very tempting with the curved key wells. So is the glove80. But I would really prefer something that was hot-swapable with curved key wells.

ajford5• 4 years ago

So I feel there's two sides to the hobby, the aesthetic side and the function/feel side.

There are plenty of people who customize their KBs for aesthetics first and plenty who focus on function/feel. And I think the number of people who focus on exclusively one side is almost non-existent.

Sure, there's a lot of people who talk about the thock or clack of this key or that, but for some it's all about the feel to their hands or the comfort of typing on a particular type of KB.

I've suffered from RSI in my pinky and ring fingers for over a decade now. If I spend too long (greater than 2-3 hrs) typing on a standard 104-style keyboard or laptop KB, the pain flares up. If I don't desist within a day or two, I start loosing grip and arm strength, to the point where I was unable to hold onto coffee cups or soup cans.

For a long time, I used the Microsoft Natural 4000 [0], a split membrane KB. I probably bought about 10 of them over a 5yr period, and I think I still have 3 in the closet.

But moving to a split mechanical was like going from sleeping on the floor to sleeping on a cloud. I could adjust the tenting and angle perfectly for my body, so it feels natural to me. I was able to try out a half-dozen key switches 'til I landed on one that was quiet but still gave a lot of tactile feedback on switch activation.

So yeah, there's definitely a bunch of aesthetic mumbo-jumbo that most people don't care about, but there's a lot in there that's not just thock & clack.

doix2• 4 years ago

You sound just like me! What split keyboard did you end up going with? I used the microsoft keyboard for years as well, but then my shoulders started acting up and I figured I needed a split keyboard and bought a Moonlander.

dhruvmittal• 4 years ago

Same! My first exposure to mechanical keyboards was back in 2013, very "all the cool kids were getting Das Keyboards." I didn't think much of it, but around that time I started developing some hand and wrist pain while typing. The company I was interning at paid a lot of attention to ergonomics and my mentor came back with a Kinesis Advantage 2, which was far less stressful than the flat Apple keyboards we were using. I don't even know if I realized it was a mechanical keyboard until someone told me.

I liked the Kinesis enough, but eventually decided to build myself an Ergodox. I wanted the complete split keyboard so that I could angle each half more aggressively to take pressure off my wrists. Back then I don't think you could buy a pre-built, so I bought into a kit group buy and spent a few hours soldering. It's a great keyboard, if not the most beautiful looking thing, and I've been using it every day at work ever since.

I lasted 8 years before I felt the need to build another keyboard, this time for my girlfriend's home office. We really did enjoy the sheer amount of choice on the market, via the well-developed hobby market. She needed a split, but she also needed it to fit well in her space. She's always hated the function over form aesthetic of my ergodox, with its clear plastic case, 3d printed risers, and exposed PCB/wiring. On the more functional side, she didn't love the ortholinear layout and wasn't interested in soldering (RSI, hence the interest in a split). We had a great time browsing the larger variety of switches, cases, and keycaps available to us, ultimately going with options that didn't exist in 2013 during my ergodox build to assemble a clean and functional split keyboard to exactly her taste. With hotswap sockets, it's also become normalized for the average keyboard to require zero soldering.

The growth of the keyboard hobby has made building keyboards, even niche ergonomic keyboards, so much more accessible to the average consumer.

WhyNotHugo4• 4 years ago

Personally, I ended up in this niche world because of discomforts, RSI and other similar motor issues.

Mechanical keyboards are also programmable, so I can move around keys to avoid painful or unhealthy movements and combinations. With harder switches I can also feel my finger and hands getting tired faster than with smoother switches.

Oh yeah, and the arrow keys are usually super inconvenient to use if you touch-type all day. Having a special modifier to use vim motion keys everywhere is really handy.

I don't speak for all aficionados of course. Plenty of people do it for fun or merely to research new way to build keyboards.

deltarholamda• 4 years ago

I prefer mechanical keyboards because, when I started using computers, pretty much all the keyboards on Real Computers (as opposed to C64s or Timex Sinclairs or whatever) were mechanical. I learned how to properly type in a Keyboarding class in high school that was done on IBM Selectrics.

That's what I associate with a "good keyboard."

I can certainly use something else, and often do, but one of the things I look for in a laptop is a good keyboard. It's my primary interface with a computer, and therefore it's worth paying attention to.

That said, the people who adopt a mechanical keyboard all mention the comfort of the clicky-keys. I agree with this. The feedback means I have an indication that I'm typing what I type that doesn't require the mental round-trip of seeing it on the screen first. The membrane keyboards are a lot better now, but every now and then you get one that's particularly mushy. I find myself striking the keys harder, which tires out the tiny joints in your fingers.

twmiller• 4 years ago

Hrm. I dunno. I recently picked up a couple of old laptops to goof around on (a 2003 Thinkpad T41 and a 2005 iBook G4) and both of them (laptops!) have keyboards that are so much better than my modern keyboards that I was sort of taken aback. I think we’ve slowly been fed worse and worse keyboards for so long that we don’t realize what we’ve actually lost. I’d say the difference is more tangible than a $250 gold-coated cable.

black_puppydog3• 4 years ago

I'd love to go back to my old lenovo consumer-grade thinkpad. butter-soft rubber dome, upgradable hardware... I ran that thing with so many replacement parts and upgrades, only a broken mainboard and lack of AVX instructions made me switch. Really it was just the AVX instructions.

But since it is modular, I have now removed both hdd drives and the wifi card (yes, you can do that in these old devices. crazy, I know!) and now it is a very nice offline writing device. Syncing happens on LAN via syncthing when I plug it into ethernet

egypturnash• 4 years ago

More like guitarists discussing guitars, IMHO. Lots of people from beginner to master do just fine with six strings tuned to EADGBE but some people get into left-handed tunings or three necks with different tunings on each or a Chapman Stick or some other weird custom instrument.

It’s a deep rabbit hole you can go down, with a lot of equipment to buy and experiment with along the way. A lot of it has little actual effect, but every now and then you find something that really works for you and makes the daily grind at the craft much more pleasant. And also it’s fun to play on that cool looking guitar with a custom paint job or to type on that cool custom keyboard: this is my instrument.

(Me, my main keyboard change is mapping caps lock to cmd-alt-shift and fn-x to cmd-shift-x, both in the service of reducing the amount of complex knots I have to tie my fingers in to hit my many Illustrator hotkeys.)

arvinsim• 4 years ago

There is a difference from audiophiles.

Unlike audio, people can objectively see and feel the difference when you use different keycaps, switches, etc.

alecbz3• 4 years ago

Huh? You can also notice objective differences in audio. Whether those differences are good or not is subjective, but that applies to both keyboards and audio.

bobkazamakis• 4 years ago

ah yes, famously audio cannot be measured and does not have any quantitative properties.

asiachick• 4 years ago

I see it more as similar to the hotrod/car enthusiast scene. A certain crowd loves to spend time customizing their cars. Mechanical keyboards seem similar to me. It's just a fun activity.

A friend of mine got into it, designing custom PCBs, designing layered laser cut acrylic or 3d printed cases. They've made 5-6 keyboards. Some small, some split, some angular, the latest one is curved. They sent me one of their designs and it was fun to build one, though expensive. Total cost with all tools etc for me at least was ~$700. But hey, I'm an overpaid engineer and I a the keyboard 8-12hrs a day. I've been using it since I built it (18 months or so)

alecbz3• 4 years ago

I used to use mechanicals with fancy layouts, but ended up getting annoyed having to switch between the fancy layout and QWERTY when working from my laptop.

I was then just using QWERTY mechanicals for a while, until at one point I realized I actually was typing faster on my Mac's keyboard. So I got an external magic keyboard, and I've been pretty happy with that.

I think maybe eventually I'd like to try a low-profile mechanical keyboard, but in general I think I don't see the appeal of regular "high travel" mechanical keyboards. They can feel "fun" but make me type slower.

munificent3• 4 years ago

There's a component of human psychology where it just feels good to optimize a thing. It seems to be particularly prevalent in men, especially those of the technical persuasion.

The funny thing about it is that it feels good to optimize a thing regardless of how important that things actual performance is. So you see all kinds of hobbies where people spend inordinate effort eking maximum performance out of shit that just doesn't matter:

* Audiophiles, as you note

* CPU overclocking

* Punkin chunkin

* Hypermiling

* Tether cars

(These hobbies always have names. I think it distinguishes the pursuit of optimization for its own sake from simply trying to improve a thing for functional reasons.)

The point isn't the performance, it's just the enjoyment of making a number go up. In many ways, the less useful the number is, the more enjoyable it is top optimize. Because when the performance doesn't actually matter, it means the stakes are lower, failure isn't harmful, and it feels more like play and less like work.

It's easy to criticize people for putting huge effort into improving things where the benefit is not at all commensurate with the effort. But the thing to realize is that the optimization isn't the justification for the effort. It's the joy of doing it in the first place.

president• 4 years ago

Optimizing things makes people feel good because we enjoy progress as it gives us a sense of productivity and accomplishment.

akaij3• 4 years ago

* Audiophiles, as you note

I am not an audiophile, but I hear some variation of this mostly from people who have never listened to exceptional masters using really good audio equipment. Sure, the cost/performance ratio is usually prohibitive, but once you have that experience, I don't know how it can be objectively called "shit that just doesn't matter".

There is also using the aforementioned setup when high. For people who like doing it, the difference is even more obvious, and the ratio starts looking reasonable.

chrisBob• 4 years ago

Mechanical keyboard enthusiasts aren't necessarily into speed typing which would be a more apt comparison to the optimizations you listed (minus audiophile). I have always thought of them as being more similar to people who develop a palate for fine wine: the goal is to be haughty and say that you can't stand anything that cost less than $400.

I caught myself going down the mechanical keyboard path and settled on a Kinesis Freestyle Pro before I got in too deep. I have modified the layout just enough that it difficult for me to sit down and use any other keyboard. That probably counts as a success.

jeffreyrogers• 4 years ago

Audiophiles are different from the other groups you listed since the things they care about aren't measurable and probably don't exist or have a real effect on performance. There are audio electronics designers (e.g. Doug Self) who work hard to minimize distortion, but that's an engineering endeavor not an audiophile one.

Melatonic2• 4 years ago

Theres a huge upgrade in my opinion just going to a basic mechanical - but of course very rapidly diminishing returns after that. Wait a bit and look around and you can get something pretty decent for less than 50$

dyingkneepad• 4 years ago

To me, going from membrane to mechanical was not a huge change, especially since in the end I don't really like MX Browns that much. Also because I figured I really like low profile keys.

The huge game changer from me was to use a split keyboard with layers and macros (and switches better than mx browns). The split by itself makes you 1000% more comfortable, and the layers and macros help even more. You should try :)

starwind• 4 years ago

yeah my mechanical keyboard doesn't improve my performance at all. But I think it feels better to type on and I like the clicky sound. If you use something all day might-as-well enjoy that thing

at-fates-hands• 4 years ago

> It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most.

Reminds of when I worked in a bike shop and I was a mountain biking. Mostly single track and some DH. I never understood the roadies who were constantly in search of taking grams, GRAMS off of their bikes. I remember two guys talking about pedals and they were literally talking about how much better their bikes were weighing 5 grams less than they do now. As a mountain biker, I'd have 5 grams of mud on my shoes inside of 10 mins on the trail so I never understood the obsession with weight with roadies.

ok123456• 4 years ago

It's a slight premium for a low-end mechanical keyboard, about $40, that won't wear out nearly as fast as a rubber dome keyboard. The cheap keyboards that you get with a new computer are usually very low quality and not really intended for hours of daily use every day.

Just get a quiet switch that won't annoy everyone around you if you're in an office environment.

RedBeetDeadpool• 4 years ago

I would say its more akin to sneakerheads.

1. Its about the interface between your feet/hands and travelling across their respective landscapes.

2. Different shoes/keyboards lets to travel with differing levels of comfort.

Sure you dont need a pair of nikes to run, and you don't necessarily need a separate pair of shoes for the winter, or for that matter roller-shoes, but they certainly make travelling across the landscape significantly more comfortable (or just different) for various uses. More than just that, people who love to buy shoes love to buy shoes of varying types even if they don't necessarily need it.

Keep in mind, programmers are only one class of people who travel across the digital landscape.

agumonkey• 4 years ago

Everything is important but weighed properly. A good keyboard adds pleasure and avoids fatigue to editing. But most of the time the real value is in prior thinking and planning (to minimize editing to an extent)

dayvid• 4 years ago

I had a few months when I went down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole, constantly trying different switches and keyboards out. Honestly, my favorite mechanical keyboard was something I bought on Amazon for $40. I can understand if you want to customize your aesthetic, but I don't really are about that.

It's the same with audio. I dabbled in hi-fi headphones and amplifiers, but it's so damn inconvenient and you wind up hyper-specializing into a non-portable setup. You're better off getting the versatile setup that's 80-90% there and costs less than half the premium cost.

rr8082• 4 years ago

I love my keyboard, but it makes going back to the office even harder. Some crappy $10 keyboard now feels horrible.

rcthompson• 4 years ago

My experience with customizing my Ultimate Hacking Keyboard has taught me something: I can't actually diverge too much from a "normal" keyboard layout, because in addition to a USB keyboard at a desk, I also use the built-in keyboards on my personal laptop (Framework) and my work laptop (MBP). It's just not worth it for me to build muscle memory that works for only one of the three keyboards I use on a regular basis. So I can't, for example, get used to the tab/window switching shortcuts of the UHK's default Mod layer[1], because as soon as I switch to another keyboard I have to go back to Alt+Tab etc. In theory I could probably figure out some way to implement something like a Mod layer for every keyboard I use regularly, but I don't feel like that's worth the effort. On the other hand, mapping Caps Lock to Escape is something I can do easily on every keyboard I own, and has been a worthwhile adjustment. It's needed on the UHK because by default Escape is on the Mod layer, and I want it as a regular key, but once I did it there I liked it enough to do it everywhere.

All that said, I do like the UHK a lot. I bought it mainly for the ergonomics of a split, adjustable angle keyboard, and it's great for that. And the silent brown key switches I chose are great for typing during calls.

[1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/manuals/uhk60/navigation...

MivLives2• 4 years ago

I use a keyboard similar to yours (Sofle V2) and I've found I don't really have a problem switching between them. I pretty regularly can type on both it, and my normal macbook keyboard without much thought given to it. Only occasionally do I feel myself trying to reach for a thumb button that isn't there and for the most part I can handle window switching fine. The switch from Mac to Windows which I do once a day is more frustrating as suddenly my copy paste key is one over from where it was.

However that switching is the reason I remain on qwerty, because I think at that point I'd find switching hard.

WhyNotHugo4• 4 years ago

It should potentially be possible to design an ortholienar keyboard for the Framework -- you'd have to replace both the top lid *and* they keyboard though.

If they continue growing as they have, maybe someone will design one?

notrealyme123• 4 years ago

I had it the other way around. The many options in configuring my ergodox ez left a big desire when moving back to original keyboards.

So naturally there is a tool to do all this stuff [1]. Mapping "Right Alt" + "Space" = "Enter" made me very very lazy.

[1] https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad

bmodotdev• 4 years ago

With all the fancy keyboards and custom firmwares today, how come none have a built in 2FA/FIDO/U2F key?

bjoli2• 4 years ago

I am in the light-yet-tactile camp. I hate cherry switches. Mx browns feels like rough linears, Mx blue are probably my least favourite clicky switches.

I find Matias keyboards fantastic, yet their tactile switches have awful quality issues, probably due to the lube. I cleaned all mine and applied my own lube which made them work as they should.

Their clicky switches are amazing feeling, and have no issues that I know of. And the keyboards lack all those worthless extras like backlighting and gamer fonts. It is almost like they decided they wanted to sell keyboards to grown-ups.

So now I have found my keyboards. Whenever Matias goes bankrupt I will probably scrape eBay for BTC dome with slider keyboards (better rubber domes cost 30x as much).

If you like linear switches there are LOADS of exciting things going on.

ben7799• 4 years ago

I love all these cool keyboards and tried a bunch but Cherry style switches just destroy my fingers/wrists/whatever. They are like RSI monsters for me.

I'm not really sure why but at least for me I'm 100% sure they're a disaster. I was totally convinced mechanical keyboards were a million times better due to the hype and that they feel awesome.. after about 5 years of using them I was in serious pain and it was really hard for me to wrap my head around the Cherry switches being the problem. All the hype made it really hard for me to grok that when I went back to cheap scissor switch or rubber dome keyboards my problems went away.

I still have a couple of mechanical keyboards.. I started going back to the office and plugged in a Das Keyboard there because it was what I had... sure enough after a few days of heavy coding my forearms are screaming again. I need to force myself to get rid of the last 2 of these keyboards.

And I had a lot.. 3x Das Keyboards, Code Keyboard, Kineses, TEK. I can flip all the variables other than switch type and none of them really matter.. as long as it has Cherry MX Brown or Blue style I have issues.

I am kind of getting eager to maybe try some of the new short travel optical switches or something now that their are options other than Cherry style.

bjoli2• 4 years ago

Had I liked linear switches, I would have jumped on the opportunity to use one of the new variable-depth linear, contactless switches (like wooting, steelseries or even razer).

I tried the wooting lekker edition and the experience was like trying some really good audio equipment. I seriously started salivating. Really really weird.

annoyingnoob• 4 years ago

My measure of a keyboard is how fast I can type on it and then how much the sound of it annoys me. Quiet and fast is where its at for me. There are lots of cheap everyday keyboards that work well for me.

zelphirkalt• 4 years ago

A while ago I bought a mechanical keyboard and I am still sometimes surprised by how much less I need to push down on a key for it to be registered. Still pressing too strongly actually. But it already has helped me to avoid some pain in the finger joints, which in turn also allowed me to do more coding in my free time, off the job, as well. Previously after a day of coding and doing things at work, sometimes my fingers would hurt and I would avoid any unnecessary typing. That however annoyed me, because I have many projects myself, which I want to make progress on.

So I am quite happy with my mechanical linear feedback key switches keyboard.

If you are a person, who types a lot, I definitely recommend investing in a really good keyboard, since you spend a lot of time each day typing and can avoid some pain.

Not so much into alternative keyboard layouts yet. Maybe some day.

xcambar• 4 years ago

I have tried and decided to ignore mechanical keyboards and custom layouts altogether.

Why? * I do not have (yet?) any pain or trauma in hand or wrist * I type 50%-50% on the laptop's keyboard or a desktop, and my brains can't seem to work properly with 2 different typing experiences...

So I decided that I should stay basic, cheap and subopmtimal.

ge96• 4 years ago

It lubes the switches or it gets the hose again.

Diesel5552• 4 years ago

Emacs users often get the credits for inventing this hack. And that hack is about realizing how stupid they caps lock key really is. Well, maybe not stupid, but unless you write SQL all day long, you’re not using it enough for it to deserve such a good position right there on the home row on your keyboard. Replace it with ctrl!

Why didn’t I ever think of this? The location of ctrl has always been awkward to me.

Findecanor• 4 years ago

Some vi users map the key to Escape instead.

Diesel5552• 4 years ago

I just discovered ctrl+[ can be used instead of escape. So now I remapped caps lock to ctrl and avoid both ctrl and escape. I didn't realize escape used to be where tab is today.

Koshkin• 4 years ago

Going on a tangent, I imagine that on spaceships or in space colonies there will be no place for mechanical keyboards. "Moving parts" will eventually break, and resource-strapped communities cannot afford that. For better or worse, touchscreen will be all they will have.

riskable• 4 years ago

This is a big reason why I invented my own 3D printable key switches and keyboards that use magnets instead of springs! Check it out: https://github.com/riskable/void_switch

In space, a spring could fly off who-knows-where and you can't change how strong it is--you need to use a different spring if you want that! With magnets, you can change how strongly they pull apart just by changing how far apart the magnets are at rest (aka "the void").

It's best not to rely on injection-moulded parts in space because it would be cost prohibitive to keep all those moulds on-hand on every ship/station. This is why 3D printable switches are ideal for use in space. 3D printers work great in zero G!

Then there's the fact that traditional switches don't really last very long... Their mechanical contact plates wear out and can even create small sparks which is a major problem in space! With magnets and hall effect sensors the entire keyboard can be contactless and basically air, water, and dust tight. The keyboard I'm typing on right now has all these features and more and the entire top plate can be taken off (e.g. for cleaning or using different switches/layouts):

https://gfycat.com/costlyglaringhyracotherium

My contactless 3D printable Void Switches should last basically forever because rare earth magnets only lose 5% of their magnetism over the course of 100 years and if any switch wears out or gets damaged it's only a $0.01 3D print away to make a new one (you can re-use the $0.01/each magnets from the old switch).

oldstrangers2• 4 years ago

I've been a fan of mechanical keyboards for 20 years now. I bought a IBM Model M off ebay when I was in my teens. The space itself isn't that fun to participate in, lots of people eagerly waiting to gatekeep their little space. And the really cool stuff is going for $600 before you even add in any switches, boards or keycaps.

All that said, I found Keychron (https://www.keychron.com/) keyboards last year and their quality and price absolutely blew me away. I bought two of the Keychron Q2 QMKs, fully assembled.

Sounds like an ad but I was just so happy to finally find a keyboard of this quality that didn't make me wait 6 months, didn't cost $1200, and wasn't buried in some community exclusive drop that only 18 people would have access to, etc.

notreallyserio• 4 years ago

I love my K8 except for the paint on the key caps -- its way too thin. I've chipped off the faces of a few keys because (I think[0]) I don't trim my nails every few days, sometimes up to a week. To be fair, I have the same problem with my MBP keyboard, but not with a cheap gimmicky Razer "gaming" keyboard.

I know I can resolve this by trimming my nails every day but boy is that tedious.

0: others have suggested it might be due to skin oils. I dunno. I'm not a chemicologist.

aidenn02• 4 years ago

I wanted to love keychron but two issues:

1. No scroll-lock on their keyboards; many KVMs use scroll-lock to control switching

2. The TKL models have the upper-right key lock the screen and it is super easy to hit with my trackball right next to the keyboard. I removed the keycap which helps a lot, but stil...

tremon3• 4 years ago

The Keychron keyboards don't support programmable layouts then?

emacs283• 4 years ago

I went down this rabbit hole and I now:

- use 30 keys

- control the mouse from my keyboard

- never have to move my palms in the slightest all day

- get far more control and (Emacs) keybindings

It was a very painful process though deciding on my custom key layout. I would make myself re-learn new layouts on an daily or hourly basis for 6 months until I was satisfied.

I have a Moonlander but my long term plan is to move to Tightyl: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/glfyki...

jmnicolas• 4 years ago

- never have to move my palm in the slightest all day

Isn't it bad for RSI?

emacs283• 4 years ago

Hm not sure, it feels fine to me at least. I think having fewer keys to hit makes it seem unnecessary to move the palms. Some people are really specific on never resting the palms on anything to reduce RSI, which I do sometimes to make typing faster, but my layout allows me to also rest my palms all day too if I want. It works for me at least.

fouronnes3• 4 years ago

Can you expand on controlling the mouse with the keyboard? How does that work?

emacs283• 4 years ago

Certainly! I have 4 keys for mouse movement (left, right, up, down) in my "mouse" layer. If you tap them it moves the mouse a little bit in that direction, if you hold the keys then the mouse moves slow at first, then starts to speed up (that is more controlled at the OS level though). You can also add keys to change the acceleration.

I have these 4 direction keys on my middle and index fingers of each hand. There are also keys for clicking which I have on my ring fingers, and on my palm for when I need to click down and drag.

It takes getting used to obviously but I don't mind it now. It works for 95% of my uses but I'll admit if I need really fine control, I'll use my trackpad for a couple of seconds.

vgalin• 4 years ago

As for how you can enable such a feature on Windows, you can find the instructions here (first section of the page): https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/make-your-mouse-...

keeeeeeeem• 4 years ago

My experience with MX switches was that they were terribly underwhelming, they felt cheap and in the case of MX browns they somehow made my keyboard accuracy decrease.

Topre switches, on the other hand, have been worth every penny.

michaelmcdonald• 4 years ago

My hands have been spoiled by topre. My ears as well. It is the absolute best typing experience I've had (and I've tried a great many switch types).

npteljes• 4 years ago

I had one for some years, but I couldn't deal with the maintenance. At one point it began to double type, and then I had to take it apart, clean it a bit, put it together and hope that the issue went away - which it sometimes did, sometimes needed another round of cleaning. So I sold it and now I'm back to a solid rubber domed office keyboard which "just works".

bricemo• 4 years ago

I’ve always wanted the mechanical keyboard crowd to stretch further. Where is the keyboard made of pipes and water? Made of plants? The air keyboard that uses LED sensors and light to type? Keyboard gloves? An old typewriter turned into a modern keyboard?

A lot of this stuff is done in the raspberry pie or arduino crowds.

generj• 4 years ago

The community has done some stuff like this (the typewriter conversions especially, though they are rare due to difficulty) and there’s a lot of crossover between the mechanical keyboard crowds and rpi/Arduino crowds.

The problem is that gimmick projects are well-suited for rpi/Arduino. These projects rarely are solving a real need so practicalities are ephemeral. These sorts of wild projects are driven at least partially by a desire for recognition within the community for pursuing them.

But everyone knows what a keyboard is used for. Radical ideas are fun except everyone at the end of the day still needs to type and knows not to get to excited about crazy concepts. This includes the people who are thinking about making the crazy concepts. So we get keyboards with RGB and encoder knobs and layouts and OLED screens and quick detach cables other fun additions/modifications which don’t fundamentally change the core of how the keyboard executes.

maxekman• 4 years ago

I would guess that the single biggest ergonomical win comes from a split keyboard, where the hands are no longer angled outward. Any other feature (staggering, thumb keys, bowled wells etc) would give further, but much smaller, improvements.

At least this is me experience after 4-5yrs of Kinesis Advantage.

ajmarsh• 4 years ago

All I want to know is why is it every cool key cap set I find is sold out?

spike021• 4 years ago

I bought my first one a year ago (Keychron K2 v2) and I've mostly enjoyed it. It has both USB and BT output, which is nice.

Except, I just recently found a really terrible bug. If I disconnect the USB and switch to BT mode and the battery dies, I'm unable to use USB mode whatsoever until the battery is fully charged (I think BT works eventually but not straight from 0% charged either).

agigao• 4 years ago

Almost fall into the pitfall. Have seen friends around spending 300-400$ in "custom" keyboards.

Used a couple of mechanical keyboards over time: Razer, Anne Pro II, Logitech G something, custom made, Asus Rog TKL etc. Well, used those for fun with PC but my major workhorse has always been Mac setup: MacBook + Monitor + Magic Keyboard/Trackpad, and productivity has always been there with this setup.

Although I spent some time with Mechanical keyboards, still Magic Keyboard TKL scores the highest, in terms of productivity, stability, comfort.

You can have fun w/mech keyboards, but I'd rather spend my time onto something that actually matters. Go with simplicity without overthinking and wasting time.

bisby• 4 years ago

Almost every other engineer I know loves the Magic Keyboard. I cant stand them. I cant stand any laptop keyboards. Their flatness just breaks my brain. Even if my productivity doesn't go down as a result, I just don't enjoy it. It's like those five finger toe shoes. They won't make me faster or slower, but the whole time I'll actively noticing the material between my toes. Until I've worn them for a few weeks or months, and then it becomes second nature. But I have no desire (or need) for a mac keyboard to become second nature. I've spent the past several decades growing used to the shape and feel of a certain type of keyboard, and I don't see a reason to change. For me, going with the mechanical keyboards IS the choice to go with simplicity; it isn't a thing I "spend time on"

All of my mechanical keyboards are in the $100-150 range. And a magic keyboard is $100. So it's not like I'm excessively splurging (I get that some people do though).

Everyone can have their opinion though. So that's neat.

woah• 4 years ago

Professional musicians don’t play on crappy equipment, right?

Writing-heavy professions, and even managerial professions where people are writing emails all day probably do more typing than many programmers. I think programmers are into weird keyboards simply because they are nerdy.

jjtheblunt• 4 years ago

or it's a nice tangible break from the monotony of coding in languages they'd not really prefer? i guess that IS nerdy, though, to your point.

hbn• 4 years ago

I never got super into mechanical keyboards, but I've used them for my PC for the last decade or so just cause they're fun to type on.

But out of curiosity, I tested my typing speed on my mechanical keyboard vs my Apple Magic Keyboard (where I do most of my programming, being that I use a Mac for my job), and I got about an extra 10wpm on the Apple one (~90wpm vs ~100wpm).

I think it's the low travel that helps my speed.

syspec• 4 years ago

This is the part I'm dreading the most about returning to the office. Teammates with mechanical keyboards just drive me mad. I get it you're typing! I can tell from 20 feet away.

kjellsbells• 4 years ago

I have to wonder, like a mathematician, does the perfect keyboard + layout have to exist at all?

Maybe its just not possible. Lets say in a typical day I spend 2 hours in each of vscode, Word, Excel and bash. Each one of those needs a different keyboard experience that is not very compatible with the others. To take a trivial example, in bash I want the semicolon, ampersand, quote, parens and tab keys to be prominent. imagine them being raised a few mm above the surface of the kbd in that mode. But in Excel i need arrow keys and a numpad plus parens and equals. and in word i just need a to z and basic punctuation. A standard keyboard, even an exotic one, doesnt really help.

Down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole

Related Stories