Why Are Young People Pretending to Love Work?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/26/business/against-hustle-culture-rise-and-grind-tgim.html

by mistersquid • 7 years ago

310 309 7 years ago

Why Are Young People Pretending to Love Work?

But I do love my work. I'm not pretending. I do look forward to sitting down to work on Monday morning. It's creative, fun, fulfilling, and satisfying.

I just feel sorry for the author that they're so relentlessly incredulous that anyone could find joy in doing something.

stiller2• 7 years ago

I'm sure they believe some people love what they do, it's just unlikely that the majority of the people grinding away as office drones do.

hoaw2• 7 years ago

I am not so sure. People tend to adapt to things they can't change. They put their hopes and dreams into it and end up loving the idea. I know people who "love" their apartment, but it is just an average apartment with a huge mortgage.

The question as always is of course whether it is real love. Chances are a lot of people will be disappointed at one point.

ken2• 7 years ago

What's your explanation for the mechanism behind this?

Jobs are universally good and bad, and most unlucky people just have to do the bad ones? Do we really need as many "office drones" as we have?

Alternative mechanisms:

People pick (or are guided into) their career path when they're young and don't know any better, and by the time they figure out what they really want to do, they have obligations and can't make a big change. People don't know what other jobs are available to them in the world, and don't realize that they might enjoy something else far more than what they're doing.

I wish there were a "Dirty Jobs" show for all kinds of careers, not just physically messy jobs. School (all levels) did a terrible job of informing me of what is involved in various careers.

zepto4• 7 years ago

Do you think that’s true for more than a small minority of people?

The author isn’t incredulous that anyone could find joy in doing something. Of course some people love their work. The author is contending that a lot of people don’t, but feel like they have to pretend that they do for cultural reasons.

bko• 7 years ago

The author is contending that a lot of people don’t, but feel like they have to pretend that they do for cultural reasons.

How does the author know that they're pretending? That seems rather presumptuous.

claudiawerner2• 7 years ago

There's a good book[0] I continually recommend which traces why people really do love their jobs, and especially the transition between the concept of work in earlier capitalism to the concept we have today. In short, companies (directly or not) put a lot of effort into making sure that your desire aligns with theirs, past the desire to materially sustain ourselves which Marx theorised originally.

A summary of the book:

Why do people work for other people? This seemingly naïve question is at the heart of Lordon’s argument. To complement Marx’s partial answers, especially in the face of the disconcerting spectacle of the engaged, enthusiastic employee, Lordon brings to bear a “Spinozist anthropology” that reveals the fundamental role of affects and passions in the employment relationship

It is provocative and refreshing to even unsympathetic readers.

[0] Frederick Lordon - *Willing Slaves of Capital: Spinoza and Marx on Desire" https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/228873/willing-slav...

sitkack• 7 years ago

I love the work your lab does, but you are seriously lucky no matter how hard you worked to get there. There are only so many positions like yours in the world. The vast majority of the people didn't and don't have the opportunities you had.

This comes off like a humble brag. I don't think you feel sorry.

praneshp• 7 years ago

Meh, I am an utterly replaceable software writer at a SF company, and feel like the OP wrote down what I was feeling.

It's fairly easy to find out where I work, and I think you'd agree that I'm not curing cancer or anything. I do wake up Monday mornings excited about work (and try to change teams/companies when that stops being true)

chrisseaton7• 7 years ago

Before I went into research I used to have a previous career that was hard, dirty, dangerous, and poorly paid, and I took as much joy in Monday mornings then as well.

coleifer7• 7 years ago

You're projecting! The author did not strike me as being incredulous. I think your own comment, your reading of the article, and your insistence (nobody is arguing with you) that you love your work -- this is the phenomenon being examined in the article.

Edit: sorry to see this downvoted. Guess it's a little on the nose.

chrisseaton7• 7 years ago

I think the author is the one projecting. They don’t like work, they don’t want to feel anyone else does either because that would mean they’re missing out on something, and they’re so convinced that they think everyone who does must be lying.

eertami• 7 years ago

But would you turn up to your work on Monday morning if it didn't pay you a salary?

Even people that "love" work usually know that it isn't the thing they would most want to spend their time doing if they had the choice.

chrisseaton7• 7 years ago

But would you turn up to your work on Monday morning if it didn't pay you a salary?

I literally did while doing my PhD! And I quit a previous paying job to do it even.

I couldn’t literally do it for free now as I have commitments and dependents of course.

PakG1• 7 years ago

This is the real test. If money was taken care of, I'd probably be doing something else with my time. In my case, I've found the most fulfillment volunteering in very remote areas. My job is good, but I'm under no illusion that I love it or that it loves me.

TomVDB3• 7 years ago

My hobby is essentially the same as my work, except I have way more resources (equipment) at work.

bearmcbearsly2• 7 years ago

At Google and other recent tech giants, you'll find thousands of people who could live comfortably without working a day for the rest of their lives. They're clearly not doing it for the salary.

ken2• 7 years ago

That could be a good test of whether someone is being truthful in this claim. In my case, yes, I volunteer my time doing this, too.

d1zzy2• 7 years ago

I'm pretty sure I would. I derive a lot of satisfaction from the things I'm making in software and if it wasn't my job then I'd definitely do that as a hobby (as I did in the past, when my job at the time didn't involve development, I was active developer in different open source projects). Software engineering is a very satisfying activity that I wish more people would have a chance to experience.

It is _because_ my job already takes care of all my software development "needs", that I don't feel the need to do that anymore when I get home and instead pursue other passions.

diminoten• 7 years ago

It's important for the author of this article and those who think like him that you're lying to yourself, because that way they're not the ones with the problem.

parthdesai• 7 years ago

I'll go on even to say this. A lot of people who actually love their work aren't posting a post/story on instagram every Monday #hustle.

It's almost the same as a lot of people who actually go to gym regularly won't post on instagram about their work outs compared to people who go once in a blue moon or only go for 2 weeks and then stop who will post "hustle never stops/keep grinding everyday"

pcstl• 7 years ago

It seems to be a trend in media to try to convince people that fulfillment must be found in life - but not in work. Anywhere but work. Work is supposed to be mindless drudgery which you only do because you’re forced to, and if you think otherwise you’ve been taken in by the evil capitalists.

pbhjpbhj5• 7 years ago

We must consume different media; I'd honestly have placed it the other way, that media in general preaches that fulfilment should be found in work and that those who haven't found it there, and aren't rich and successful in a job they love, are themselves the problem.

That said you can enjoy your work but still be being used as a peon for a greedy capitalist; they're pretty orthogonal.

zanny2• 7 years ago

Often times, the most exploited workers are the ones who love their job. Because of that, they don't ask for raises, seek workers rights, or diversify their lifestyle. They sleep in their car in the parking lot making the boss millions of dollars a year on entry level salary because "they love the job". The boss then gets to laugh all the way to the bank.

Its not that liking your job is bad, its treating employment in the traditional sense - salaried or hourly - as if being charitable with your time or ability to your employer because you like doing it so much is a virtue. It isn't, its just giving those with power more power out of laziness. Because its lazy to just give yourself away like that. It takes courage and strength and effort to fight for fair compensation and a balanced lifestyle that doesn't revolve around making someone else filthy rich.

FooBarWidget• 7 years ago

The boss then gets to laugh all the way to the bank.

I don’t know whether it is true that such bosses expertly manipulate passionate workers into slavery. Based on experience, I have an alternative theory: those kinds of bosses have an “ambitious” personality (for the lack of a better word). They are never happy no matter how much they achieve, and so they demand more and more from others. It may very well be that in the end they end up with a lot of wealth, but in their minds they failed because they’re comparing themselves with even more successful people. So it’s more a case of “crying all the way to the bank even thiugh the account is filled”.

mikelyons2• 7 years ago

How do you fight for this? What leverage do you have? There's another kid that can do the job just as well, directly behind you. I am possibly wrong, but I would really like an answer about how to fight for more compensation, it seems that we are expendable ...

mesozoic2• 7 years ago

This is very true. Every time I talk to my game industry friends I just shudder at how exploited they are.

barrkel• 7 years ago

But I do love my work. I'm not pretending

The article is about people who are glorifying the striving, not the work. It's about the hustle, not the doing. It's specifically humourless, not fun.

pje• 7 years ago

Really missing the point of the article here my dude

zepto4• 7 years ago

Isn’t the answer obvious?: Work has become much more precarious again and looking like you aren’t into it is a competitive disadvantage that few can risk.

maccio92• 7 years ago

Or maybe some people actually do love the work they do... Are people really this disenfranchised that they can't possibly imagine that some people really are doing work they enjoy? I love my career and the work I do is fulfilling and gives me a sense of accomplishment

zepto4• 7 years ago

Do you think most people love their work the way you do?

kome• 7 years ago

Because, unless you are in some market niche, surviving got really complicated.

It is obsessed with striving, relentlessly positive, devoid of humor, and — once you notice it — impossible to escape.

That's the world we build for ourselves. Let me quote a passage from Max Weber, in his book "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism":

"The Puritan wanted to work in a calling; we are forced to do so. For when asceticism was carried out of monastic cells into everyday life, and began to dominate worldly morality, it did its part in building the tremendous cosmos of the modern economic order. This order is now bound to the technical and economic conditions of machine production which to-day determine the lives of all the individuals who are born into this mechanism, not only those directly concerned with economic acquisition, with irresistible force."

If others are stepping the game up, we have to step the game up too if we want to survive.

Is this good or right?

whatshisface• 7 years ago

They call it the Puritan work ethic, but I'm pretty sure the Puritans had kids. It's more like the "Japanese population collapse work ethic."

mathieuh6• 7 years ago

I actually do really like work (wouldn’t say ‘love’), am 23 and have a consulting side-hustle which pays somewhere like 220% more per hour than my salaries job.

I’m not doing this consulting work because I love software so much my day job isn’t giving me enough satisfaction, I’m doing it to earn well-needed money.

I got into heroin addiction a couple of years ago and built up a decent debt (in total probably about 50% of my annual income). Put simply, I need somewhere to live and something to eat. I’ve interviewed at other companies which offer me about 40% more than where I’m working now, but my company has stuck by me so I’m going to stick by them.

Basically, I wonder how many people are working like this due to circumstances beyond their control.

Workers fought for centuries to get the 40-hour work week, something seems wrong when we’re stating to go the other way.

(I have been clean of heroin and all drugs except nicotine, alcohol and cannabis since around mid-August, I don’t keep track of the date anymore because last time I got clean I got completely fixated on it)

coleifer7• 7 years ago

If you're going to stick by your company, why are you interviewing?

PS, good luck staying clean. Hit me up if you want to talk, I've been through similar stuff.

mathieuh6• 7 years ago

Just preliminary phone interviews I get from recruiters on LinkedIn, I don't take them seriously. It's just always good to keep up with the industry.

Thanks for the offer of talking, I feel pretty secure in myself right now (no desire to use due to the adverse effects it has on literally every factor of my life except feeling really good for a few hours. I don't miss having to ask colleagues to get me a coffee because I couldn't walk the 10 minutes there and back to Starbucks, or having people staring into your eyes to see if you're high, or more obviously, the bruises and trackmarks,

Weed, alcohol and I'm trying to quit nicotine, then I'm hitting the gym. Already signed up.

BigChiefSmokem2• 7 years ago

You are 23 and you are talking about loyalty to some consultancy company? I can tell you right now you have a bad perspective from inexperience. You are worth probably (definitely) more than any company can value you at so get over the idea of "loyalty" in this industry young buck.

Be eager to do great work not a ton of work.

losvedir• 7 years ago

"have a consulting side hustle" sounds to me like they're doing their own thing, not working for "some consultancy company".

mathieuh6• 7 years ago

I am loyal to them because they have been loyal to me, and monetary compensation is not top of my priorities, being treated right is.

They knew what has happening, gave me almost two months to get over it (paid, I just didn't have to go into work), and now they've stuck by my I like to think myself a pretty decent SE who's going for SSE next round.

I'm not loyal to the generic idea of a company I've been at for a few years, I am loyal to my current company because time and time again they've proven themselves to reciprocate that loyalty.

I do have a side hustle where I do some small contracting work at £25/hour (my friend who is kind of my mentor in this says I should be charging way more, but this is Northern Ireland and my first gig.)

I do see myself migrating towards my side hustle in the future, but I don't see myself leaving my current company to join another consultancy company, regardless of the money (within reason). My company does a lot of GOV.UK apps so almost all the providers know each other (Kainos, BJSS, Valtech, CapGem, Clarasys etc.)

I can just about afford everything I need and a few things I want, and I'm hoping to be debt free (sans-student-debt) in a year or two.

Also, bearing in mind I am a few months clear of one of the most life-destroying substances in existence I am quite happy to take it slow for a year or two.

I have overdosed and almost died due to pulmonary oedema, really puts things in perspective when you wake up on a gurney with tubes everywhere, no idea where you are, and a pain like you've inhaled a knife-blade.

kpwagner4• 7 years ago

Wow, that comment took a real turn at the mention of heroin--haha. Good for you, no bs. I have no doubt it will be a long-term struggle, but stay on the path. I can only relate with my "addiction" to video games, which has similarities, but I admit is not the same. Don't let that debt get you down. Pay it off and get clear. You have so much time.

If you have a consulting side-hustle, you must have something financially valuable to offer the marketplace--which is more than most 23 year olds can say. If you need support, please seek it out. Our world needs as many people with their act together as we can get. So I'm rooting for you!

mathieuh6• 7 years ago

Thanks man, the debt is manageable, just about. I actually need to get on to the credit card companies and claim financial hardship, i'm just a bit wary of admitting addiction to people who will control my life in future.

Are they going to offer me a mortgage if they're worried i'll go and shoot all my money up my veins? I don't know, I know a financial advisor who owes me a favour so I'll ask him.

My side-hustle came from the serendipity of meeting some PHP FIG guys who kind of took me under their wing, they're still the ones finding me side gigs while I build up a reputation.

s0l1dsnak3123• 7 years ago

I commend your loyalty (and the grit and determination required to pull back from addiction), but I have to agree that such loyalty will not benefit you long term. Stay loyal to your boss and to those who helped you through tough times - but don't mix that up with a loyalty to the company as a whole.

mathieuh6• 7 years ago

This is really good advice that I had managed not to think about before; the people who really helped me number in the double digits and there are well over 1,000 people working where I work, and I doubt they would all be as understanding.

muzani3• 7 years ago

Agreed. I worked with an incredible boss and company, probably the best period of my life.

But later, the boss took a step back, hired someone for the CEO spot. The company aggressively hired people and attracted a lot of really bad types with their hiring policy. Whole thing started to go downhill rapidly within two years. Same company, entirely different culture.

deogeo• 7 years ago

Workers fought for centuries to get the 40-hour work week, something seems wrong when we’re stating to go the other way.

This bears repeating.

golemotron2• 7 years ago

Signaling.

golemotron2• 7 years ago

Why is this downvoted?

Retra• 7 years ago

Reasons.

nononotnot• 7 years ago

leading the witness.

Some are some are not.

clickbait nyt

Spooky23• 7 years ago

Society has systematically devalued things like family, marriage and community.

It’s like a variant of Orwell’s vision. The proles are probably the happiest ones.

dsaavy• 7 years ago

While I enjoy my work, you’ve got to have breaks even from things you love. It seems doubtful that even if someone is in love with something, they try to spend all day, every day thinking about it or doing it. Heck, I love my SO and my dogs but I need breaks from them as well lol.

Some people love work, some people don’t. That being said, the excessive propaganda that work, work, work doesn’t typically benefit the person working as much as those they report to, like the article points out. That seems to be the main issue rather than an entrepreneur trying to materialize their dream.

pizzazzaro• 7 years ago

But listen - someone has to babysit the datacenter, just like taking out the trash, or fixing people's plumbing.

When even low level retail job listings demand A Burning Passion!!!!!11oneoneeleven for the terrible job?

They're trying to find the people who would do this work anyway, without getting paid for it. Why?

So they can pay us all less. When we work partially for the privilege of what we do, money matters less... and we can get away with expecting less.

Anyone else? Is too busy fitting this mold to even be able to ask for a raise.

firloop• 7 years ago

I'm happiest when I'm working hard on meaningful problems that I care about.

I also understand that everyone doesn't feel that way. I think that's okay too. I don't understand why this needs to turn into a debate or perpetual flame war.

assblaster2• 7 years ago

I wrote about this previously, but here it goes again:

I think the 7 day "work" week is the most life-relaxing way to work.

I try to work 7 days a week. Some days I work 3 hours, some rare days I work 36 hours.

When I'm not working, I'm enjoying that time and not stressing out regarding income taking time off, because I know I have given it my 100% and not held anything back.

It is satisfying. I feel relaxed at work. I feel well rested.

I think the 5 day work week is soul-crushing: there's just enough time off from work that you dread coming back, and there's enough time at work that you feel overworked.

40 hours over 7 days is a little over 5 hours per day, and sprinkling in a couple 12 hour days spreads the remaining work to 5 three-hour days.

sonnyblarney3• 7 years ago

You're going to grind yourself to death.

The huge advantage of the 7th day is that you know you cannot work, nobody else is working, that it's pointless and you can relax. It's 'the time for not working'.

When you work 'every day' - the nagging of 'maybe I can do something' always exists.

If you put in your time on the 5 days, then you can have this 'I know I gave it 100%' feeling.

Also, knowing that you can 'finish stuff on the weekend' I find makes one even a little bit more likely to procrastinate!

I've lived extensively in both worlds (i.e. 5, 6 , 7 days) and I think 7 will catch up to you. It caught up to me.

assblaster2• 7 years ago

When I go home at 11am, I know that I won't be working until the next morning. I can do whatever I want during my free time, I can go shopping, spend time with family, watch Netflix, work on house projects, exercise, etc.

If instead I have to work until 5pm every single week day, I will feel stressed/exhausted when I come home, and when the weekend comes around, I need to fit in all the things I couldn't fit in during the week. In other words: I would have to hustle on my personal time because I know that Monday will come very soon and unless I get it done now, I won't be able to get it done until the following weekend.

I worked 5 day weeks before and I was miserable and exhausted. I work 7 days now and I'm invigorated. And I make a ton more money as well.

I do wish I had more time to travel, but I can take care of that once I've built up enough savings to retire at age 50.

danlugo92• 7 years ago

Given your experience, what are your thoughts on five 6-hr days vs four 7.5hr days (but these 7.5 hours must be fully productive otherwise I cannot bill them).

d357r0y3r2• 7 years ago

There are multiple things happening here. I don't think a majority or even a double-digit percentage of young people have what this author is calling "hustler" mentality, but we'll ignore that, and focus on the people who do have it. Thoughts on "hustle" culture in no particular order...

- Some people are legitimately trying to build a business and be first to market. There are arguments for and against burning the midnight oil, but it could be a rational thing to do.

- Some people are filling a void in their lives left by the evaporation of community, family, and church. The "hustler" types typically live away from their family, don't have kids, and certainly are not going to church. Immersing yourself in a lifestyle with other people struggling, in the same way, is a decent way of feeling like you're a part of something.

- This is probably just a thing in places like NYC and SF where you're surrounded by hyper-successful people at all times. That's why they call it a rat race.

FWIW, I've never been able to work anything like a 12-14 hour day unless it was something I truly wanted to do. There was no pretending.

SquishyPanda23• 7 years ago

You raise an interesting point about filling a void.

I have talked to more than a few hustlers who had fairly deep rooted issues around failure and rejection and not amounting to enough.

This is present in all populations, but I personally have noticed that it's strikingly common among people trying to create startups compared to other groups of people I talk to.

d1zzy2• 7 years ago

The same is true for many great athletes, they are "running from something". It makes a lot of sense that at the very top of any human activity only those that have had the talent, a bit of luck and _very importantly_ sacrificed everything else over it will make it. And that's much more "easier" to do when there's something in their lives driving them strongly towards that goal.

I wouldn't even say that's a bad thing. The achievements of those people push humanity forward and even if you focus on the person, if they wouldn't have done that what makes you think they would have otherwise been happy and productive members of society?

marcosdumay• 7 years ago

I dread thinking about how that second group of yours feel during a layoff.

About the rat race, isn't that name just because it doesn't matter how much you run, the wheel just spins faster and you never get ahead? That's how I always understood that phrase.

Eldandan2• 7 years ago

I think of a little maze for the rats to find the cheddar, which they endlessly repeat just to get more meaningless rewards while never being able to escape the maze. What you describe sounds more like a hamster wheel. Do rats also run on such wheels?

In any case, IMO the streets of SF make a good visual for the OP's definition of rat race.

quaunaut• 7 years ago

God damn, do I hate cynicism.

The entire tone of this article, written by someone whose beat is literally "Startups and venture capital for the New York Times" according to their Twitter bio, is so absolutely beyond patronizing and Knows-Better-Than-You that they can't possibly fathom the idea of people both enjoying work, and having a purpose that is a long way off.

So you're working for someone else's startup right now. They're getting rich off your work. Is the idea that you might be working to prepare yourself for a next job, a startup of your own, somewhere where you have a larger piece of the pie, completely unreasonable? Not all of us came from families that can afford to put us up for the time it takes to get the funds to start. Others of us already have families and want something better.

Furthermore, yes, this generation really does seem to give a fuck about making the world a better place. It often materializes in ways that personally enrich ourselves, but such is capitalism: There's literally no way to be widely effective at helping people that doesn't also enrich yourself along the way. Hence why all the largest charities have significant government sponsorship alongside, and Religion is more commonly seen today as the ignorant hideaway for homophobia, sexism, and the status quo. But many of us also think that we have an idea, that might just work, that is hard to execute on. So why not work toward it?

I'll never fault someone for hating their job. My first gig was being the locker room towel boy for a bunch of fat, sweaty rich people in the densest population of poverty in America at the time(Fresno, CA). The job I got before I became a professional coder was delivering car parts in Claremore, OK, for a guy who store rumor said did some stuff to kids. At that job, I worked 80-90 hour weeks and only billed 50 because I both didn't know what I was doing, and was afraid of being yelled at by my boss.

But for those of us who have something better than that, who enjoy bettering themselves at their craft, while making stabs and tries at something better- why be a cynic about our day job is still a job? Yeah, it's the rat race. But I'm not doing it for a big house, or a car, or fame or fortune. I'm doing it because I hope I can say I left this place better than I found it.

ravenstine• 7 years ago

stagnant wages + media glorification of big tech = millennials fighting for studio apartments

sonnyblarney3• 7 years ago

They're not faking it, they believe they have impact and are finally able to have the identity and distinction of 'real responsibility'.

They are 'grown ups now' able to live their lives and do real things.

That said - this for those in decent jobs and most of the generation actually doesn't believe that 'hard work' is a defining quality. I looked up the reference but sadly could not find it but from 'greatest generation' to 'baby boomers' to 'gen X' - they all put 'hard work' as a top 5 characteristic of their gen. Gen Y/Z are the first to not include this. It may be a matter of semantics or wording, or even their perception of others in their generation as opposed to an objective reality.

viburnum• 7 years ago

If you're lucky, and many tech workers are, at the beginning of your career work can be insanely fun because, unlike school, you're finally spending most of your time doing the one thing you're good at it, you're gaining skills rapidly, and you're getting paid to do it. The thrill wears off after a few years.

d357r0y3r2• 7 years ago

Eh, I'm like...7 years in or so. It's still pretty fun. It feels good to develop expertise and to have valuable insights that people are interested in. If I were still doing the same job as when I started, I think I'd be very bored.

gchamonlive• 7 years ago

The title is a little misleading. It leads us to believe that young people pretend to love work regardless of working conditions

I saw the greatest minds of my generation log 18-hour days — and then boast about #hustle on Instagram.

This summarizes the idea better. It is unnatural to love an activity that simply drains you of all your time and energy. I "work" all the time. I'm always doing some course, doing actual work, learning, practicing different skills, but mostly I do it in my free time.

The author questions then the surprising nature of the relationship young people have with extremely time consuming jobs, and I believe that is a valid criticism. We need to protect the youth from believing it is OK to reduce the daily routine to sleep and work. Health, mental and social problems all rise from such situations and cost a lot of money from society, from having to waste time and money on therapy specifically to counter those issues that rose from work abuse, to ultimately crippling depression and suicide

Bucephalus355• 7 years ago

lol yesterday I saw an ad from JP Morgan on Twitter...”why young people don’t just want a paycheck”.

The ad led you to page that talked about how a charity in Seattle got basically 2 weeks of free work from an entry level dev at a JP Morgan event...and now the dev works at the bank.

The subtext of all this of course, wink wink, was how to pay your employees less by giving them something, anything, other than the one thing they actually need, money.

crack-the-code• 7 years ago

Here are some of my reasons why I love working (and working hard):

1. I actually enjoy programming and working with others.

2. Sense of purpose. Working with others towards a common goal.

3. Reward. The harder I work, the more I increase my chances of greater financial output.

4. Recognition. When my boss or peers acknowledge my accomplishments, it makes me feel proud.

5. Growth. A lot of my personal development has come from wisdom gained through work.

KaoruAoiShiho• 7 years ago

Work is not some uniquely arduous activity. I blog for fun, as a writer I'm sure she would find that to be "work". Even playing video games could be work nowadays. Sex and going to restaurants could also be work to some people. If the "work" is cool and rewarding it could be good. The writer probably grew up in an era where work is divorced from achievement and the results are all sucked up by some far away corporation. Then it sucks, but the problem with that is not work, but that somebody is stealing the credit for your work.

coleifer7• 7 years ago

I think some people are confusing the point. It's not about whether or not you enjoy your work. It's about the glamorization of working more than others.

I think a critical mass of people have bought into the belief that overwork is equivalent with success. That dedication to work is heroic. So there's signalling going on, a desire to cultivate the image of being a winner (in this narrow sense). There's also naivety... people who buy into this and aren't just signalling but truly think working in this way is somehow reflective of the superiority they desire to possess. So there's a cyclical effect, one group feeding back into the other.

gerbilly• 7 years ago

I think a critical mass of people have bought into the belief that overwork is equivalent with success.

Basically it's another one of those misunderstanding implication fallacies.

They are saying:

hard work <=>success (equivalence)

When really:

success => hard work (hard work is necessary for success)[1] hard work =/> success (hard work is not sufficient for success)

[1] Mostly.

vertline3• 7 years ago

I doubt they are the "greatest minds of his generation" that probably goes to someone like Terry Tao

rayiner2• 7 years ago

When did performative workaholism become a lifestyle?

During the Protestant Reformation? Another sign of young peoples' rightward drift: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/generation-....

curuinor• 7 years ago

compare to the data:

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-looks...

rayiner2• 7 years ago

That survey looks at current views, not views across generations at the same age. Older people are more conservative on average, but there is evidence that millennials and Gen Z are more conservative than their parents and grandparents were at the same age: https://capitalresearch.org/article/the-conservative-millenn...

bjornlouser• 7 years ago

“Welcome to hustle culture. It is obsessed with striving, relentlessly positive, devoid of humor...”

I remember a time when humor helped build trust and friendship at work.

I remember laughing at work...

decebalus12• 7 years ago

This is one of the things which really rubs me the wrong way. I've rejected a couple of offers over the years simply because the interviewers came off as weird robots with poles up their asses (that unfortunately includes Google, where the people I met couldn't take a joke but had no problem laughing about others). You CAN crack a joke without being unprofessional, especially if it's about the profession. I don't understand why people choose not to do that. Humor is one hell of a stress coping mechanism and inside jokes are a side effect of having a cohesive team.

agensaequivocum2• 7 years ago

I'm 25 and while I enjoy software engineering I would much rather just spend time with my wife and child. I work only for the well-being of my family. My first priorities are God and family, and it is here that I know my purpose in life.

3riverdev• 7 years ago

Well said. It's the means to an end, not the end itself.

etrautmann• 7 years ago

I appreciate how clearly you know your priorities. They're slightly different for me and having a larger set of uncertain priorities can be fatiguing.

burlesona2• 7 years ago

I suspect you’ll get some scorn from this audience, but I appreciate you sharing this. In the end we all need to find meaning in life, and I’m glad to hear when anyone has found that.

crimsonalucard• 7 years ago

I'm older than you and still trying to find the purpose you have. For now I fill my emptiness/time with a "love" of software engineering.

potta_coffee• 7 years ago

This is true wisdom. It's a worn out saying, but no-one on their deathbed looks back and says, "I wish I'd worked more." Much better to be surrounded by the children you lovingly raised.

agensaequivocum2• 7 years ago

Very true.

nathan_f772• 7 years ago

no-one on their deathbed looks back and says, "I wish I'd worked more."

This is a bit off-topic, but I've read a few stories that contradict this on the /r/financialindependence subreddit [1]. I can't find the link now, but there was a person who asked their Dad if they had any regrets. Their Dad said that they wished they hadn't retired so early, and that they had spend more time working. They enjoyed their job and they missed feeling useful and having a sense of purpose. I think it's common for people to quit their jobs too early and lose their sense of purpose, and it's even linked to a 20% higher mortality rate when you're 60+ [2].

Of course family is more important and you should spend as much time as possible with your children. But I was just surprised to learn that some people really do say "I wish I'd worked more" on their deathbed (or in their old age.)

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence

[2] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/retiring-early-could-kill-...

cma• 7 years ago

Putting a fictional "God" above family is what killed Delilah (in the fiction, though the killing might have been real).

sotojuan• 7 years ago

I've come to the same conclusion also by age 25, even though I have no children, am not married, or are religious. Building software is enjoyable and I do my best, but I work to support a lifestyle I enjoy and be financially secure.

dqpb5• 7 years ago

I'm going to say this in the politest way I know how to - because I'm not trolling you, I sincerely care about the sanity of my fellow human beings.

When you make God a priority, it is most likely that you're prioritizing a fictional lense on your worldview.

Thats fine if it's a choice, but it's cruel to train that kind of thinking into children before they've had a chance to experience the world in it's raw form, and have learned how to discern fact from fiction.

ecshafer• 7 years ago

I think you read far too much into gp god and family comment. While it is possible that they meant living a religious orthodox life with proselytizing, and that is acceptable. I think more often "good" here is used as an abstraction of a simple, "good" life, with morals, no decadence, etc. Which is a perfectly fine goal I think. Whether the reasoning for that is experience, religion, philosophy or some other thing I think it's unfair to judge.

rement2• 7 years ago

Religious or not the last thing I want teaching my children anything is the world in its raw form.

JunkDNA• 7 years ago

As a parent I have a strong desire to raise my children with the same values that I have. For people who practice organized religion, you can’t really have the “values” part without the religion part. It all fits together into a cohesive whole. Young children also have a strong desire to mimic their parents, while at the same time wanting to know “why?”. How does one explain to kids why you’re celebrating a religious holiday or headed off to church/synagogue/etc... without teaching them about God? Most organized religions also have imperatives for passing on the knowledge to children. It’s totally incompatible with a person’s own belief system to not raise their children in their faith.

Many people for thousands of years have devoted their lives to the search for Truth. It is a journey that takes a lifetime. I don’t believe there is some moment in time where one is able to discern fact from fiction when it comes to the big questions of the meaning of life.

heurist• 7 years ago

"God" means a lot of things to a lot of people. Appreciating the world around you and doing what you can to be good to others can be "God".

buboard4• 7 years ago

Brave of you to come out of the closet as a deist, very brave indeed

rement2• 7 years ago

We have come full circle. At one point not believing in a God was a reason to hide. Now, according to your comment, believing in a God is a reason to hide.

tathougies2• 7 years ago

26 year old here... same.

ggm2• 7 years ago

I think it would sit better with me as an atheist if you'd said first priority was family and then God, but perhaps the athiest doesn't understand.

Molotov put his adherence to communism ahead of his love of his wife. They got back together when she was released from the camps but I can't but wonder about that relationship.

coleifer7• 7 years ago

How can you tell when someone is an atheist?

me as an atheist

Oh wait...they'll tell you.

chrstphrknwtn• 7 years ago

I'm curious why your god comes before your family?

coleifer7• 7 years ago

My own sense is that without a relationship with God, I'm going to miss the mark with my family.

pbhjpbhj5• 7 years ago

Not OP:

Logically, God only wouldn't if you weren't convinced about who God is? I applaud your curiosity (and am eager to here other's answers) but if someone believed in God and still put their family first wouldn't that be more curious still?

Like, "sure you want me to fulfil your purposes for creation and be a co-worker with you, give this money to that needy person (say) but I was going to take the family out for a slap-up meal so God, I'm putting them first"?

muzani3• 7 years ago

I think there's enough room to love God, family, and work. We spend over a third of our waking hours at work. Might as well love it.

screye• 7 years ago

I appreciate your candidness.

I have met a good few people in tech who are smart and hard working, but are chasing the next shiny thing without any long term overarching direction to their life.

I won't say that's necessarily a bad thing, but I can't imagine putting in insane hours every week when I can't answer the "to what end ?" question.

sgspace• 7 years ago

I have recently been applying for a new software engineering job. Any job that has included in the listing for job responsibilities: "A passion for what you do", I have not applied to.

The amount of jobs I have skipped due to this "job responsibility" is ridiculous. I am good at what I do. I will come to work, work a full day maybe even longer, then go home and unwind or do something non software related. I am not trying to burn out. Why is it not enough to just be good at your job and work an honest day every day? Why do I have to love every moment of it as well? I am not going to fake it because that lead to burnout at my last job. Who has a passion for writing crummy software for someone else anyways?

By skipping those jobs, I think I have found the right one where I am surrounded by down to earth like minded people who are still good at what they do. I start in a couple weeks and I am actually looking forward to working now.

kpwagner4• 7 years ago

Honesty and self-awareness. I'll take those over naive emphatic workaholism.

BigChiefSmokem2• 7 years ago

Have you watched the documentaries on the Fyre Festival?Everyone in the company can be honest but if the top isn't then it doesn't matter. You can't really know that up front.

mobilemidget• 7 years ago

... I probably should have read this when I turned 20...

SpicyLemonZest2• 7 years ago

What companies are trying to avoid is the failure scenario with an office full of miserable people, constantly complaining about each other and finding creative new ways to slack off. That leads to burnout just as surely as 100 hour weeks do.

save_ferris• 7 years ago

That makes sense to me, although I don't necessarily think that companies achieve this by looking for people who are passionate about their work.

An office full of miserable people usually indicates poor management, which no amount of passion can really offset.

I think there's a lot of pressure to "enjoy" work because good-paying work is a lot harder to find these days. Not to mention that our work is deeply ingrained in our identity (at least in the US). I get asked what I do for a living 95% of the time when I meet new people in the US, and exactly 0% when I meet new people in Europe.

AlexandrB• 7 years ago

I don't think hiring for "passion" will avoid this. In my experience, these kinds of dysfunctions are systemic and/or cultural and can arise even in companies full of people who are engaged and passionate about software development.

ahoy• 7 years ago

The _job_ is why those people are miserable! This is insane! It's like running a gym and requiring people to already be fit to join!

coldtea2• 7 years ago

And yet such ads and mentality is the best way to get an office full of miserable people.

The most important parts of most project work are grunt and grit, not "passion" and other such BS oriented at Disney-nurtured adults.

alexashka• 7 years ago

Funny. They can start by not having open offices if they care one iota about human misery.

SCHiM• 7 years ago

I've read some books that attribute this with command and control leadership.

If employees are not responsible for their work, can't take chances and have every decision second guessed by more senior people fiercely guarding their little sphere of influence, that's when you breed such resentment.

You see this too with 'bikeshedding', there appears to be delegation taking place, but it is a farce. In this case there are too many captains on a single ship, nobody can take charge and nobody is responsible and free to give it their best and possibly fail.

tomatotomato37• 7 years ago

What's your opinion on "crafted" job listings versus boilerplate job listings? Passion for a job is often a generic thing pasted into those listings along with 15 years of experience in Angular, but in a personalized listing an emphasis on passion I do see as kind of a warning sign.

rubenbe• 7 years ago

I agree, this line is probably added by someone in HR/Recruiting (no disrespect) who adds it to every job list he/she posts.

sokoloff4• 7 years ago

Ages ago, I was hiring for a senior systems engineering position. I wanted to use a one-line requirements section: "Knows how a computer actually works"

Was blocked by HR/recruiting... :(

distant_hat• 7 years ago

What people write in those ads is fairly generic. Having interviewed a fair bit and knowing people in other companies in the industry I can say outside of the strict job description all such 'requirements' are completely dependent upon the group of people you end up with.

paulcole5• 7 years ago

I interviewed for a job where the description said both, "we take work-life balance seriously" and "you must be able to work on multiple projects under very tight deadlines."

I asked the interviewer how both of those could be true and he said, "I'm not sure, I'll have to get back to you."

PopeDotNinja• 7 years ago

Any job that has included in the listing for job responsibilities: "A passion for what you do", I have not applied to.

As a developer and former recruiter, I will say that most job ads are not written well. Many people cut & paste the text from other jobs ads and tweak it for their own purposes. The people with whom you'd work may not even be aware of what's in the job ad. Crafting a good job ad is hard.

lainga• 7 years ago

If you care enough about the position to cut and paste, will you care enough about the employee?

james_s_tayler2• 7 years ago

Well that's why I didn't apply to jobs that wanted to go through a recruiter. Not after the shenanigans that happened to me last time with recruiters.

LaserToy• 7 years ago

It is more enjoyable to work with people who love what they do. I also don’t believe you can be actually very good at something if you not I live with it. That’s it.

grawprog• 7 years ago

I used to think that until one day I asked probably my most skilled, experienced coworker whether he likes his job, not the job but the work he does. He was confused. He said no it's just work. I like completing the schedule.

Yet he works long hours, everything he does is extremely high quality and just watching him work you can tell he's pretty masterful at what he does. Though honestly, I'm not even sure if he sees himself that way.

cc812• 7 years ago

I like being around people who have a passion for software development. That does not mean that they are working themselves to death but the curiosity will end up making them better developers.

As a .NET developer you usually get a MSDN licence from your company and that will give you a generous amount of "free money" on Azure. My passionate colleagues have read up on what you can do and tried some cool things while most of my other colleagues have never even logged in to it.

My passionate colleagues might read an article from Hackernews about web architecture at lunch because they think it is interesting while my less passionate colleagues browse Facebook.

icebraining5• 7 years ago

I think "passion" is too strong (probably a result of word inflation, like "awesome" and such), but yeah, having someone to work with who actually gives a shit about what they're doing is much nicer. It's not even about the company, just the process itself.

james_s_tayler2• 7 years ago

I'm in the latter category, but I don't fault anyone for being in the former. I sort of just assume passion/interest is normally distributed and the ones you see actively doing lots are the tail ends of the distribution.

I find the passionate ones tend to progress in their careers and thrive on that sense of achievement and the punch-in/punch-out types are happy just to hum along, take work and do it.

I think it's necessary for balance.

Eli_P2• 7 years ago

Passion per se not necessarily implicates becoming a better developer. Passion or obsession have their own side effects such as NIH, rock star syndrome, lack of social life, arrogance and blaming others on own errors, being overly competitive and jealous, application of tools and skills just because I can.

My passionate colleagues might read an article from Hackernews about web architecture

Reading Hacker News while eating lunch implicates reading StackOverflow in bathroom hour later. Better off relax and chew properly.

LaGrange• 7 years ago

I like being around people who have a passion for software development.

Cool, go to a meetup, not the place people go to because they like not starving.

actaeon169• 7 years ago

Interestingly, 'passion' comes from a Latin root meaning 'to suffer" or "to endure".

nkingsy• 7 years ago

In my experience, conspicuous displays of tech passion are a strong signal of incompetence.

Edit: obviously in social or interview settings this is appropriate. I meant among co workers.

throwawaymath4• 7 years ago

I think you're spiting yourself by opting out of every single job that lists that line. Whether or not a company encourages burn out probably has nothing to do with whether or not they put this or that boilerplate on their job ads.

It's not as if they have a consistent set of criteria they're searching for when they write that. Someone in HR or recruiting put it in there because it's what they've always done and they haven't seen a downside to it. In that sense it's just fluff. Fluff is bad for recruiting, but you shouldn't try to infer what a corporate culture is like merely from the flavor of fluff on job ads.

iamdave6• 7 years ago

Whether or not a company encourages burn out probably has nothing to do with whether or not they put this or that boilerplate on their job ads.

Interesting you put it that way, since I've learned to be on the lookout for boilerplate in job ads as a personal filter. Usually I've figured this out by just copying and pasting select texts from their ad into Google and seeing how many other job ads from different companies for similar (and in a few cases wholly different) roles.

You say "spiting yourself" I call it doing due diligence because you can best bet those companies are gonna be scrutinizing the hell out of whatever resume I give them, turnabout is only fair.

perfunctory• 7 years ago

but you shouldn't try to infer what a corporate culture is like merely from the flavor of fluff on job ads.

What should you infer corporate culture from? If job ads are written by HR, and not by say lead engineer is already telling.

imhelpingu• 7 years ago

Not everyone who puts "we're a bunch of idiots" on their job ad is necessarily really a bunch of idiots.

Those companies deserve to be less desirable employers for workers who can be picky.

TomVDB3• 7 years ago

I like to work with people who love doing what they do. That’s what I understand under passion.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that they have to work until 8pm every day.

rm999• 7 years ago

Any job that has included in the listing for job responsibilities: "A passion for what you do", I have not applied to.

You're mistaking "passion for what you do" with "passion for a job". I've worked with a lot of people who love their field and I've never seen a correlation with hours worked. If anything the people closest to burnout are always complaining about their job and fantasize about leaving their field entirely. Those people are not passionate for what they do.

BurningFrog2• 7 years ago

I think you're over-interpreting a standard phrase.

To me "a passion for what you do" means that you care about your work and you don't half-ass it.

But I expect that it probably means other things for other people, including your interpretation of "tons of overtime".

Jade_Jet• 7 years ago

The phrase “a good work ethic” to me describes what you are saying exactly.

I am not passionate about computers, I like solving problems and streamlining the tedious. Personally I don’t have a passion for my company either. I like them, I like what they pay me, and I like the benefits and culture.

I see my paycheck as a business transaction that is favorable to both myself and the company I work for.

With that being said, I do actually enjoy the work I do, but would never use the word passion to describe it.

hnuser3552• 7 years ago

Maybe it’s cynical but I feel like halfassing your work is a very good tactic in some situations. Eg your manager halfassed the project idea, he halfasses spending the time to understand what’s going on, he halfasses setting the team up correctly, etc. In that situation I’m going to halfass the project and spend the other half going out to eat with my friends at other companies, learning something new and relevant, and planning my finances so I can weather any sort of lay-off etc

lordnacho• 7 years ago

I think you're absolutely right to avoid those postings.

Fluff like "passion" or "drive" or "initiative" is indicative of someone who has no idea why they are hiring someone. Let alone the fact that none of these things is reliably demonstrable, and all of them depend on what the job on offer is.

You're far better off responding to an ad that says "we want someone who has done x, y, and z, and wants to use it for a, b, and c". Specific things with a specific purpose. If someone has that, they've thought about what they actually need, not how they want to look.

alangpierce• 7 years ago

It's tricky. On one hand, it seems odd to say "you must care about the work you do". On the other hand, I think there's a noticeable difference in quality between software that just meets the minimum requirements vs software that was developed with care and pride. There is real benefit to figuring out some mechanism for software engineers (and all workers) to be passionate about what they're doing, and people who are chronically in the "I don't care" camp make that quite a bit harder. My reading is that "a passion for what you do" is meant to filter out those sorts of people. It's much more related to working style/attitude than number of hours worked.

Maybe a refined/alternate job req would be something like this: "You must be open to the idea that the work that you're doing has value and is intrinsically motivating. We will do our best to convey that value and provide that motivation, and you should try to harness that motivation to produce high-quality work." Certainly, as someone who has planned engineering tasks for teams, a lot of focus has been on making sure that everyone has a feel of ownership/vision and is working on things that they enjoy.

ddebernardy• 7 years ago

Any job that has included in the listing for job responsibilities: "A passion for what you do", I have not applied to.

I've an extra criteria of late, which is not applying to anything that I don't find socially useful or that is obviously engaged in some anti-social behavior. Try that, and you'll skip nearly all jobs.

Sad world...

cableshaft• 7 years ago

I've tried using that criteria also, and found similar results. Hardly anything out there actually seems to be all that useful (despite their sales pitch or mission statements) nowadays. Most of it is just a me too with a barely different take on something that already exists, and that thing often isn't something terribly needed either. Although maybe I'm just getting older and persnickety.

rdiddly• 7 years ago

It would be better if, instead of using a distilled and ambiguous code word like "passion" (that several people on this thread are expending valiant effort to explain/define) employers just came out and said what they mean/want. "We're looking for people who do their work with care and attention," or the like. Passion is a whole can of worms. Passion can be sex, rage, irrational attachments to things you're "passionate" about, or boundless totally disruptive joy. Is that what they want in the office? I doubt it.

afpx2• 7 years ago

I’d argue that if you’re good at developing software, you are probably passionate for it.

Creating software is very hard, and I’ve never worked with a person who has gotten good at it without having an above average level of interest. I believe that’s partly because developing good software, efficiently requires team members who can work independently with little guidance. And, to be able to do that, one has to have some interest in what they’re building. But, I may be wrong, and I’ll have to think about it more.

It’s good to know that people get turned off by that description, though. I’ve put that term in my job posts for a long time. It comes from my experiences in the 90s and 2000s when waves of people entered the industry only for the money. And, it always seemed to show in their work. Plus, because of shortages, often it’s easier to train passionate, entry-level developers than it is to find good experienced developers. And, that’s not because I low-ball on salary. It’s just very difficult to convince people to come work for you, especially when your a scrappy little startup with little revenue and high risk of going under.

clarry• 7 years ago

I’d argue that if you’re good at developing software, you are probably passionate for it.

Developing software is all the same, right?

Just like everyone tuning the engine in their race spec roadster must love doing oil changes and swapping rusted brake discs on their neighbor's 15-year-old nissan micra?

I know a lot of people who are passionate about the beautiful software they get to work on their spare time, on their own terms.. software not tainted by dysfunctional corporate culture, legacy, deadlines, budget constraints, ever growing technical debt, etc. I suspect most of them don't expect to find such passion-worthy projects in a commercial setting. It is quite likely that they won't love their job, even if they can do a heck of a good job at it.

So yeah, that kind of description can be a bit of a turn-off.

charlie0• 7 years ago

My thoughts exactly. Those without passion for their career (not a specific job) are going to know just the bare minimum needed to complete a job. It leads to mediocrity. At the same time, I acknowledge that "passion" is an overused buzzword.

itronitron2• 7 years ago

By your reasoning, people that are 'bad' at developing software are also passionate about it otherwise they would never become good.

sigfubar• 7 years ago

You’re overestimating the amount of actual effort most companies put into writing their job descriptions. The majority of such blurbs strive to fall close to a certain mean that is defined by a variety of canned phrases, one of those you seem to take issue with. Don’t read too deeply into the text. Instead, talk to the people and decide for yourself. The interview is a two way street, especially in this labor market. You can afford to be selective based on meaningful criteria.

czardoz• 7 years ago

Software development is a job that changes frequently, and that requires engineers to stay "on top" of these changes. People who are not passionate about it may get their skills outdated sooner. So honestly, I think being "passionate" is actually important in this profession, more than others.

sjapkee• 7 years ago

Software development is a job that changes frequently, and that requires engineers to stay "on top" of these changes.

Hype oriented programming as it is.

vidro3• 7 years ago

i think there's a difference between passion for what you do and passion for what the firm does.

I try to learn and become a better developer.

I could give a rats ass about programmatic advertising and the "value" we bring clients.

bdcravens• 7 years ago

Personally I think that "A passion for what you do" is HR fluff that has no bearing on the real job; it's the new "ninja".

Similarly, when I see "Made with (heart image) in (location)" at the bottom of a website, I'm pretty the developers weren't overflowing with emotion when they hit commit.

leroy_masochist• 7 years ago

You can take this to mean two things, right? "A passion for what you do" could mean that, for example, you write work-irrelevant npm packages in your spare time because it scratches an itch. I want to work with people like that! I don't think it's wrong to try to identify and hire these kinds of people.

On the other hand, "a passion for what you do" could be code for, "you have to go full tankie on our company's 'we are making the world a better place' mission statement BS". And for companies that's true of, you'll probably be able to identify that trait pretty early in the actual interview process.

So, maybe you should apply to some of those jobs!

squirrelicus• 7 years ago

We're so privileged to be in a market where we can be so discerning.

Kiro2• 7 years ago

It's not about asking you to work yourself to death. At least in front-end development you need to have a passion in order to stay up to date or you will be irrelevant. That's the passion I'm looking for when hiring.

ivanhoe• 7 years ago

It's so sad that the word passion has become an euphemism for working long hours and weekends, and it really should be all about caring about the project. The paradox with that is that more you're burned out less you will care about the project (or anything else really), less "passion" you'll have.

AareyBaba3• 7 years ago

As a technical hiring manager, I write out a job description general enough to attract a wide pool of candidates with specific requirements to keep the candidates relevant.

This description gets passed on to HR for posting and they append the company spiel to it. That's where generic HR keywords like 'passion', 'exciting', 'innovation','elite team', 'cutting edge', 'game changing', 'inspiring' get added. I don't have control over that.

So ignore the HR rubbish and checkout what the hiring manager and his/her team are like. Also note in mid-size (1000+) to large (10K+) companies each manager and team can have their own work culture based on the personalities in the team so don't write off such a company based on interviews with just one group.

pbhjpbhj5• 7 years ago

Why is it acceptable for HR to add bullshit? Who thinks that's a good idea?

flashgordon• 7 years ago

Actually if it makes it any better, you could take "a passion for what you do" as "will put in best foot regardless of how unstimulating and braindead the job is". So not so much as burn out as patience. How does that work for you?

sridca• 7 years ago

Passion notwithstanding we can all agree that it is sensible to enjoy doing work.

The problem is that many people swing from being passionate to the other side of the spectrum by becoming cynical of work.

JDiculous• 7 years ago

As uninteresting as most modern day employment work is, what bothers me most is the lack of concern for the meaning of one's work.

I'm all in favor of people "hustling" and working hard if it's for something that benefits humanity and/or something they genuinely want to work on. But most people aren't taking us to the moon or curing cancer, they're selling crap people don't need. The dystopian motivational quotes in the article are like the business version of "keeping up with the Joneses"

Not that there's anything wrong with selling shakeweights. But I wish that instead of this #hustle culture, our culture was more geared towards making the world a better place. Of course for this to ever take place, at a minimum we'd probably need to end the precariousness of our economic system and free people from the servitude of boring 9-5 jobs (eg. UBI).

But until workers see through the billionaire employer-brewn Kool-Aid and stop giving in to this propaganda, the young will continue to get exploited and waste their lives pursuing crap that will make a few rich, but ultimately doesn't add any value to society. But the fact that this article was even written by such a prominent publication gives me hope that the mainstream is beginning to see through the facade, or at least finally stop perpetuating the gospel they've been forced to preach.

claudiawerner2• 7 years ago

The notion of meaning in work was covered originally by Marx drawing on ideas from Hegel. Even Marx's fiercest detractors found his theory of alienation brilliant, along with the theory of commodity fetishism. It's a shame to me that many people end up rediscovering these ideas independently rather than seeing just how deep the insight of past thinkers has been and applicable to the modern day too.

nyxxie• 7 years ago

All of the measures in this article to increase morale about work aren’t exploitative unless they’re being used to exploit workers. I don’t think the author made a really good case for this; instead they argued on the snuck premise that employers naturally want to squeeze their slaves dry and used that to conclude these measures are evil attempts to propagate “burnout culture” (look! A shiny new Term for us to use).

In reality, this is easily explained as an attempt to merely increase positive feelings about work. I like the work I do, but a negative working environment is infectious and is usually a big productivity sapper for me. The tech industry has plenty of managers attempting to juice their slaves for as many hours at the keyboard as they can get, but I think carved cucumbers encouraging people in their work is mutually exclusive to that issue.

solarkraft• 7 years ago

My company has some pretty good benefits. It's full of great people. I spend lots of time there. It's mostly enjoyable.

randomacct3847• 7 years ago

I cringe at the interview question of “why do you want to work here?” and the dance you play in saying anything and everything accept for “the paycheck.”

ryanianian• 7 years ago

It shows if the candidate has seriously considered what the company does, how it operates, and what would mean for them to join the company.

It also helps the interviewer take stock of what the candidate is looking for. If the candidate does well they can circle back to those interests and sell the candidate on the company a bit.

mnm1• 7 years ago

It also shows the company and person asking this are completely out of touch with reality, basically arrogant idiots who think their candidate has time to research and make up a lie to answer their questions just like he has time to do the same for the other five hundred or a thousand job postings he replied to. It shows arrogance and way too much self-importance, both huge red flags for any employer. But at least they can target the best liars in their applicant pool.

decebalus12• 7 years ago

I always have a bunch of recruiter spam in the backlog whenever I want to switch jobs. And when I get that question I push back with something like 'You contacted me, I'm exploring opportunities in a couple of places so.. why should I want to work at your company?'

triangleman• 7 years ago

I recently helped interview 4 internal candidates for 2 openings on my team. One question I asked all of them is "how do you feel this job will contribute to your personal development/career?" It makes a huge difference if you can answer this question, because it's totally possible to get candidates who don't actually want the job but are just applying as a matter of course. Then they may struggle in the job or leave. You want someone motivated to do the job, you really do, or you will be doing them and yourself a disservice.

burlesona2• 7 years ago

Is it just me or is this article exceptionally “New York City?”

The work culture here in SF, in my experience anyway, is not at all like the article describes.

akhilcacharya3• 7 years ago

I agree, but despite never being a New Yorker and still reading NYTimes every day I always forget that it is a New York City paper first. And because of it, I really shouldn't be surprised that part of their outlook is going to be focused on the elite circles available in NYC.

Waterluvian• 7 years ago

I dunno. I absolutely love what I do. 95% of my days don't feel like work. I work from home so I see my kids a ton more than I used to. I go to the park with my oldest after lunch. I have flexible hours. I do interesting stuff that challenges me. And I get a ton of freedom to design and implement solutions that I think are best (and learn from my mistakes). Finally, I've never once been pressured to work more than ~40 hours a week.

My one issue is that I can't picture any other job ever being this compatible with how I want to live my life. I worry it'll never be this good elsewhere. Happiness handcuffs, if you will.

dgreensp• 7 years ago

Is your employer hiring?

Eldandan2• 7 years ago

Oof! This is where I am with teaching post-secondary at a non-research institution in California. 6 weeks of Winter and 6 weeks of summer off, with added pay to teach those intercessions? Scheduling classes so I get every Friday off? Yes please!

I still dream of getting into more technical work where I get to solve interesting problems, but figuring out how to best teach a class and reduce equity gaps is a meaningful, interesting problem. If I ever find a different line of work I at a tech company, I worry about having the freedom and flexibility in my current job to raise my family in the same way.

nie• 7 years ago

I used to be the young people who love the work and made the work dominate my work life balance. My reason was quite simple: I felt this is the first time I have my ability validated, furthermore I was constantly surpassing my own expectations, I don't want it to stop. So in other words I don't belong to the group that are pretending to love work.

For a long time I automatically think others must felt the same way. On the other hand I think it's not efficient nor effective to pretend that you love your work: you are evaluated based on your performance/competence anyway, although in work environment we like to call it your "enthusiasm", the pretending only works in certain working environment with a certain culture, theoretically.

TheOtherHobbes• 7 years ago

Not a new problem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakhanovite_movement

thinkingemote• 7 years ago

This is mainly a US cultural phenomenon through the Protestant Work Ethic. Europe had more Catholicism but the immigrants to America were puritans. Anyhow the idea is that by working hard you are good.

It's not something new it's in the very fabric of American society and culture. Work is good, lots of work is better.

drugme• 7 years ago

Because they've internalized - quite unconsciously, it would seem - the dominating ideology of their time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

potatofarmer45• 7 years ago

My very first job was in finance on Wall St at a bulge bracket investment bank (read: big name fancy boohah bank).

I did it not because I like finance and I thought working 100 hours a week on excel was fun, I did because I had no idea what I wanted in life and a job the most prestigious / best paying job at the time available to a graduating student was in finance.

Most the people I started with (trading), didn't last more than 2 years. I burned out and quit the day I got my bonus after 1 year. But you see a pattern in all the people who stay. They don't love the work, they love the money and the prestige of the work. After a while, it becomes your identity and even though most bankers hate their jobs, they pretend to like it because there is nothing they can do elsewhere that offers them the same perks.

I worked with a guy who complained to me every single night when we worked together almost 10 years ago. He said he was going to quit once he reached XYZ arbitrary milestone and go work at an NGO. Last time I checked, he is still there. Now he has a wife, kids, and a lifestyle that requires a lot of money so he can't leave. He also says now that he "loves" his job, but like in the article, he is fooling himself. It comes out after a few drams of scotch.

GarrisonPrime• 7 years ago

But you see a pattern in all the people who stay. They don't love the work, they love the money and the prestige of the work. After a while, it becomes your identity...

Sounds like what I saw in the medical field.

alexandercrohde• 7 years ago

Maybe I missed it, but where is the evidence that a majority of young people are pretending (or even claiming) to love work?

intuitionist• 7 years ago

The editor who wrote the headline seems to have confused a corporate branding strategy with what the actual workers are saying. Seems kind of hard to reconcile the high support for socialism among American youth with the idea that they’re hustle cultists.

hkon• 7 years ago

In my experience, the ones who shout the loudest about passion and motivational quotes have the least knowledge to get the work done. Sure they put in long hours, only to have their spaghetti code fail at the first attempt of running it.

Sick and tired of it frankly, so I prefer to avoid those boys.

riyadparvez• 7 years ago

Being an outsider, the thing that stand out most about North American culture is that it is extremely self-promotional. Granted, self-pormotion exists more or less is all cultures. But what makes it different here is self promotion is actively encouraged as a virtue. I think 'I love my work', along with many other behaviors, can be attribute to this self-promotional culture.

iheartpotatoes• 7 years ago

I question the author's conclusion of a truly subjective experience. It feels like fancy gatekeeping. The cross-references to social life are in interesting way to tease out meaning, but ultimately the dude is calling people "posers" with a richer vocabulary.

I'm 53 and I still don't know if I have really "liked" my work/career in tech that started in the late 80's. I got off on my 80-hour weeks when I was in my 20's, but there was a direct result from my efforts (first silicon!). It's always been a challenge, and at some points broke me down (e.g., awful task, asshat manager), but I've always thought: "Welp, I gotta do something, might as well be something that pays well." I suspect the rest has been after-the-fact self-conditioning. But I'm almost done, and I look forward to retiring and doing more tech projects I never finished, so I guess I really did enjoy the career?

redleggedfrog• 7 years ago

This is so perfect. Those poor kids got duped into thinking that somehow grinding their young life away will eventually get you somewhere. Hardly anyone gets into the NBA, or gets to be top drug dealer, or has their startup get bought for millions.

But, well, someone needs to be the hopeful drones I guess.

buboard4• 7 years ago

what the hell are people doing working 130 hours? I kind of get it if your work involves sitting in an office thinking of how to unify gravity and quantum physics, but if a tech worker takes so much time to work he either doesn't know how to use the tools or is not good at it.

Participation in organized religion is falling, especially among American millennials. In San Francisco, where I live, I’ve noticed that the concept of productivity has taken on an almost spiritual dimension.

This is probably closer to the truth. How many people make friends outside of work anymore? Esp. when people live in a big multicultural city with everyone moving every few years, work is the one place that actually feels like home.

esoterica• 7 years ago

Today’s messages glorify personal profit, even if bosses and investors — not workers — are the ones capturing most of the gains. Wage growth has been essentially stagnant for years.

Everyone loves quoting this statistic out of context. Median wages have been stagnant but compensation for the top 10% (and the top 1% especially) have increased substantially. All those poor exploited FAANG engineers fall at least into the top 10% by income (120k/year), and very large fraction of them into the top 1% too (~300k/year). It's amusing how techies love to complain about being victims of capitalist oppression when in reality they are, by a very, very large margin, massive beneficiaries of rising inequality, not its victims.

akhilcacharya3• 7 years ago

I agree. IMO, we're seeing a pretty intense class stratification to go along with it, even between FAANG's.

tathougies2• 7 years ago

Because they don't have families, social ties with friends have been loosening for decades, and there really isn't anything else to live for.

I can count many colleagues from the past few years for whom work is their main social group.

renholder• 7 years ago

Relevant John Lennon lyric[0]: "A working-class hero is something to be..."

[0] https://youtu.be/D77dbv-xNfE

Eli_P2• 7 years ago

Check out lyrics of this[0] glam rock song from 1986. Reflects this whole thread over and above.

[0] https://youtu.be/nM_yNG2htsg?t=61

joduplessis• 7 years ago

I think I'm getting tired of people villainizing a love for your work & industry.

Within reason of course - but I think we're seeing a knee-jerk reaction to the hustle philosophy that has historically permeated the industry. Moderation never sits in the corner of the right or the left - you can still enjoy your field without working until 10pm every night.

"It has exported its brand of performative workaholism to 27 countries..."

Why polarise the issue even further with journalism that is so bias. And perhaps dig up some "pre-success DHH mantras" before extolling his anti-hustle rhetoric.

LawnboyMax• 7 years ago

Perhaps we’ve all gotten a little hungry for meaning. Participation in organized religion is falling, especially among American millennials. In San Francisco, where I live, I’ve noticed that the concept of productivity has taken on an almost spiritual dimension. Techies here have internalized the idea — rooted in the Protestant work ethic — that work is not something you do to get what you want; the work itself is all.

This feels true...

sixo• 7 years ago

Because the idea of your job and your life being separate is ridiculous, an artifact of a first-generation middle-class that burgeoned in the second half of the 20th century and was largely just happy to have money and security.

We - the young people now - want a lot more, and to some extent we're willing to close the gap between what-we-want-to-do and what-we-do-for-work from both sides so we're not living in a perpetual disharmony like our sad parents did.

CM30• 7 years ago

I've been wondering the exact same thing. Especially in regards to working hours and what not. Seriously, when did work go from '9-5' (or something similar) to 'let's do as much overtime as possible'?

Too many young people seem to be treating work like a community/social club thing rather than a work for hire one, and forgetting that work is really a means to make money rather than the entire meaning of their existence.

Maybe this also explains why hobbies seem to be on the way out in general. To a world where your passion 'has' to be your main job, the idea of doing anything for fun must be a dying trend.

chrisseaton7• 7 years ago

Maybe this also explains why hobbies seem to be on the way out in general.

I don't understand where you're seeing this - I think people are becoming much more serious about hobbies these days.

People don't just go jogging - they do ultramarathons. They don't just enjoy baking, they set up baking tutorial YouTube videos. They don't just watch movies, they write their own fan fiction and get it published. They don't just play with toys, they build Arduino robots.

This is the age of the amateur professional in hobby areas.

_2d30• 7 years ago

Why is the NYT shaming people for loving their work?

manmal• 7 years ago

I think a part of the problem is caused by ubiquitious caffeine consumption.

On caffeine, I'm driven, and want to code more, and start new projects, and meet people, and never stop thinking, and hustle towards the future. I also never stop to question whether my goals are worthwhile, or at least good for me. I just "love the chase" on caffeine.

Off caffeine, I'm considerate, more withdrawn, and enjoy life as it is, being in the moment. Life is more "real". I take breaks, talk to family on the phone, cook myself a meal, smell the flowers.

Our generation runs on coffee. 64% of people over 18 in the US drink at least a cup every day [1], with rising tendency. "Programmers are machines which turn coffee into code", and other similar memes aplenty. I believe that a side effect of taking in caffeine is to be driven and motivated during the day, and of weak willpower at night, leading to excessive social media usage. It makes the hustle itself a means to an end.

1: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-coffee-conference-survey/...

joe_the_user• 7 years ago

I'm not so sure about caffeine in particular.

But it seems like you have an ethos among some portion of 20-somethings of being so driven you can do work, go to school, and party freely. You have it all, except for sleep and that hits people hard after a while.

But it seems like a mindset that caffeine, harder drugs, or just the attitude of one's peers may reinforce. I personally drink lots of coffee and get lots of sleep so I don't caffeine by itself does it. But the broad approach is here, very destructive and not restricted to coders at all (you can find it a lot in service workers for example).

akhilcacharya3• 7 years ago

Consider me unconvinced. I don't know anybody like the people described in the article and nearly everyone I know is a big coffee consumer.

leowoo91• 7 years ago

Biggest mystery haven't been solved yet: why coffee makers are still complicated?

pbhjpbhj5• 7 years ago

Well you can have instant coffee, or an air-press, or ... addicts get a bigger hit when they establish a religious experience through ritualising their consumption. One of the difficult things about giving up cigarettes is giving up the paraphernalia, the sense of occasion, the ritualised actions that start the happy hormones as Pavlov's bell initiates salivation. Your hands themselves are almost separately addicted to the actions, unwrapping a packet, sliding out a cigarette, tamping the tobacco, wheeling the flint on the lighter; each action a stepping up of the anticipation of drug-satiation.

Now, with coffee one can do the same: the steam and coffee-incense rise like the smoke from a thurible; beans clink, machines whirr, chrome shines in the bright halogen light of the kitchen. All subtle sensory inputs hailing the ever-closer hit of caffeine.

chkaloon• 7 years ago

This writer sounds like a slacker.

throwawaycanada• 7 years ago

Fear.

sevensor• 7 years ago

Is it coincidental that two of the defining features of the Victorian era -- overwork and prudery -- are making a return at the same time? It's a strangely conservative turn for young urban people to take.

defterGoose• 7 years ago

citation needed

vivekd• 7 years ago

Some people are just conscientious, they love work and feel they have to be engaged in some work - whether it be meaningful work or pointless drudgery - for their life to be worthwhile. My mom is like that. I think the article is overly focused on these sorts of people. There are tons of people out there who are more relaxed and want to take it easy - in fact I would say that's the majority.

Sure some companies and employers are highly conscientious and they seek out conscientious employees. It's sad because conscientious people are more readily taken advantage of by employers. But at the end of the day it's just a personality and I don't know how well we can apply the label to all millennials. My experience has been that early boomers are the most conscientious people, probably more so than any generation that came after them.

I would argue that with millenials some of that hustle culture we're seeing is not necessarily a work nature, but more desperation. Here we have a generation coming of age into hard economic times. Many have high hopes but believe that their lives will be worse financially than that of their parents. It's natural that some of them would adopt a hustle mentality as a way to struggle against that.

011110111• 7 years ago

“Because in the end, you won’t remember the time you spent working in the office or mowing your lawn. Climb that goddamn mountain.” — Jack Kerouac

RickJWagner• 7 years ago

It's a big cycle.

WW2 vets were the hard workers of the 50s, followed by the Flower-Power hippies of the 60s, followed by the Yuppies of the 80s, followed by the Slackers of the 90s.....

eli_gottlieb3• 7 years ago

Honestly, at this point, I'm expecting that anyone participating in "hustle culture" is either self-consciously referencing Sorry to Bother You or just letting me know they are, in the immortal words of Douglas Adams, a bunch of mindless jerks who will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

muzani3• 7 years ago

There's a book, Flow. It was written in 1990, meaning that the research doesn't even involve millennials, but rather the Boomers. It's not even research for productivity; the goal was to find when we are happiest.

In it, it describes that most workers actually enjoy work. About 47% for blue collar up to 64% for white collar. Whereas during their leisure times, it's 20% for blue collar, down to 15% for white collar.

However, the catch is that when at work, they describe that they would rather be doing something. There's a paradox that motivation is lowest when at work, even though they feel happy, strong, creative, satisfied. And that they look forward to periods like watching TV where they feel more weak, dull, and dissatisfied.

The book doesn't have a solid theory as to why this is so. Maybe we have a cultural stereotype that we're supposed to hate work. Maybe we feel forced to do it against our will.

Modern society seems to actually restrict flow. We're constantly interrupted by social media and messaging. We have open offices where everyone can interrupt one another. There's less situations where we can just sit down and lose ourselves in work. A blue collar worker can tune the world out while they cut grass and assemble cars, while the engineer has to deal with a barrage of emails and stand up meetings.

So, it's quite possible that work now is less enjoyable than 30 years ago.

0db532a03• 7 years ago

I decided to leave my last job with a month’s notice due to a few reasons, one of which was constant noise and interruption. I was in the process of finishing a project with no further input needed, and I wanted to leave behind something I was proud of.

Given that I had no reputation to protect there, without asking anyone, I moved into a disused room, no windows, completely isolated from the rest of the office and spent my whole days cracking out code alone. I was never happier, and I’ve never got so much work done in an office in my life.

mesozoic2• 7 years ago

Funny while they work themselves to death I'm just sitting here barely working by putting a little forethought, planning, and efficiency in the mix. Seems like the amount I work drops by 25% and my pay goes up by 25% a year.

hnuser3552• 7 years ago

Haha, I agree. I always had arguments with my dad where he’d say you have to have a passion, etc. and I’d be like “Dude, I don’t care about that extra stuff. I just want money”

Of course now I’ll play along since pretending to be passionate about office politics or JavaScript is part of making money.

I work a lot more than the minimum but the part outside my work week is all very long term fundamental stuff I hope will help my career over the decades

spaceflunky• 7 years ago

I can't believe no one has said it, but I have a theory that says working hard and making yourself inaccessibly busy is a new status symbol.

In a world where it's difficult to buy even the most modest of homes and unreasonable to buy a sports car if you have no home in which to put it, making yourself seem like you can't possibly get away from your desk because too many people need you is the nouveau status symbol.

sudovancity• 7 years ago

I enjoy software engineering for about 8 hours a day

Why Are Young People Pretending to Love Work?

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