From M1 MacBook to Arch Linux: A month-long experiment that became permanenent

https://www.ssp.sh/blog/macbook-to-arch-linux-omarchy/

by articsputnik • 11 months ago

253 451 11 months ago

ssp.sh

articsputnik7• 11 months ago

Why I ditched my M1 MacBook for a $1000 ThinkBook running Omarchy, an opinionated Arch Distro.

piskov7• 11 months ago

Marketing

SwiftyBug4• 11 months ago

One thing I couldn't find in your post was the reason behind choosing the ThinkBook. I'm about to make the exact same switch you did (thanks for bringing up Omarchy, I hadn't heard of it before!). I'm considering a ThinkPad P14s. What made you decide on the ThinkBook?

articsputnik7• 11 months ago

My requirements were: affordable, as i didn't know if I stick to it, 32 GB of RAM, 14'' form factor and good keyboard. AMD for good Linux support. This ThinkBooks popped up, and I liked the look and just tried it. The matt screen was a bonus.

andsoitis• 11 months ago

It just works. One thing I noticed lately is that sometimes a shortcut breaks, or something is not working anymore. This is also because Omarchy is just brand new, and I’m inexperienced running Linux as my main OS. But for the last 5 years with the M1, hardware-wise, things just worked.

My experience over two decades has been that running Linux is like having a car you need to spend every weekend in the garage tinkering with to keep running well. MacOS is lower effort. I haven't run Windows in a long time, but compared to Linux, it also doesn't require constant tinkering.

While I also think Linux user experience becomes more and more "it just works", the incentives are such that a commercial experience like macOS is likely to always be a few levels above.

fsflover• 11 months ago

It definitely depends on your distribution. My relatives running Debian don't even know how to tinker with it or open a terminal.

khedoros12• 11 months ago

My early Linux experience involved a ton of manual configuration, documentation, and head scratching. But for the past 10 years or so, using Linux has felt like less of a fight than using Windows, and things have tended to "just work" for me.

NomDePlum• 11 months ago

I run Ubuntu and definitely never been easier. Practically boring.

bitwize• 11 months ago

My experience is just the opposite: Linux requires more up-front tinkering, but once you get it into a shape you want, it tends to stay that way and get out of your way. Windows, by contrast, requires much more ongoing active maintenance, and previous releases were prone to simply shitting the bed without explanation or recourse. MacOS is better about this than Windows, but not as good as Linux.

Now if you're talking Arch Linux... sure. The Arch devs love yanking the carpet out from under you and then telling you "you should have read that forum post from a week ago if you didn't want your system to break". But other distros, like Slackware, Debian, and Void, are quite stable across updates.

abhinavk2• 11 months ago

I surely love answering *Why I don't want to backup my files and settings to OneDrive" every few months OR Removing things like Edge Game Assist etc from autostarting.

bee_rider2• 11 months ago

Has Arch gotten much worse recently or something? When I used it they were pretty good about posting “manual intervention required” when needed on the front page of their site.

tomsmeding• 11 months ago

Public service announcement: those "forum posts" are mailing list announcements. You can subscribe to that mailing list (arch-announce): https://lists.archlinux.org/mailman3/lists/arch-announce.lis...

And it's almost always something you need to do at system upgrade time. It's not like your system doesn't boot all of a sudden.

sys_64738• 11 months ago

My experience over two decades has been that running Linux is like having a car you need to spend every weekend in the garage tinkering with to keep running well. MacOS is lower effort.

Is it this or that you have the Linux skills to tinker so just do. Giving Linux laptops to non-techies yields self-sufficiency in people I've not seen with other OS platforms.

MrScruff• 11 months ago

I think the ‘out of the box’ Linux desktop experience has improved a lot. To me the difference is in the long tail of software. On Linux the variety of toolkits historically available means depending on what software you’re using you may encounter a lot of inconsistency- I certainly do. On the Mac far less so.

dgan• 11 months ago

I run Opensuse on daily basis for more than 3 years, and no it definitely doesn't require "week-end tinkering". like zero tinkering.

freehorse2• 11 months ago

The only tinkering I do on Linux now is to do stuff that I would not be able to do on other systems anyway (or at least def not as easy).

extraisland3• 11 months ago

My experience over two decades has been that running Linux is like having a car you need to spend every weekend in the garage tinkering with to keep running well. MacOS is lower effort.

It depends. I've been running Debian since 2020-ish. I picked my hardware to run Linux. Nothing much changed for me between Debian 10 and 13 tbh.

I haven't run Windows in a long time, but compared to Linux, it also doesn't require constant tinkering.

I would say Windows is a bit worse now. I find I have to use Rufus to enable some magic option to able Local user installation (I am not having a MS account), setup choco, install the stuff via choco and then set a desktop background.

While I also think Linux user experience becomes more and more "it just works", the incentives are such that a commercial experience like macOS is likely to always be a few levels above

Most stuff just does work. If you are running exotic hardware, then sure. But if you have a bog standard desktop or laptop it will work.

The biggest problem with Linux tbh is that if you aren't using Gnome or KDE, the UI is just bit jank in some places.

johndoe08152• 11 months ago

What IMHO is more interesting than the article itself - what is this little cyberdeck-style mini notebook on the left in this picture that is part of the article? Does anyone have a link?

https://www.ssp.sh/blog/macbook-to-arch-linux-omarchy/arch-b...

throwup238• 11 months ago

Looks like a MicroJournal Rev 2: https://www.tindie.com/products/unkyulee/micro-journal-rev2-...

articsputnik7• 11 months ago

It's a distraction free typewriter (https://www.ssp.sh/brain/distract-free-typewriter/). That particular model is a MicroJournal Rev. 2 with a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 in it.

Check it out here: https://github.com/unkyulee/micro-journal/blob/main/micro-jo...

johndoe08152• 11 months ago

Thanks a lot for the hints - the Micro Journal Rev.2 seems to be quite a nice device!

torben-friis• 11 months ago

coming from an m1, and given they're awesome as hardware goes, wouldn't asahi be the natural choice? honest question.

abhinavk2• 11 months ago

The author ditched the M1.

spangry• 11 months ago

Oh darn, I thought they'd gotten Arch running on an M1 but they actually switched to a ThinkBook.

I somewhat regret my expensive switch from Linux to MacOS. MacOS is just so weird, it doesn't make any sense to me. For the first time in my life I feel like some tech-illiterate grandpa trying to figure out how to make his blasted computer do stuff.

sarmasamosarma• 11 months ago

What’s so hard about it?

ahepp• 11 months ago

It was not super difficult to get Gentoo running on an m1 MacBook with the (unsupported) instructions some of the Asahi folks left around. I guess Arch might be a bit more difficult in some ways, given the weird status of arm64 being a different project from core Arch?

freehorse2• 11 months ago

Asahi was originally arch based. Not sure how it is faring now, though

0xfaded• 11 months ago

Same, I have a Mac at work and can suffer the horrible window management by just having more physical monitors (3 + the built in screen).

I bought one for home use because I liked the hardware and the idea of running local llms. Long story short I'm still using my 6 year old Thinkpad running arch.

piskov7• 11 months ago

For mac try moom: easily best keyboard-based windows management.

As for spaces: just create a few (important), then go to system settings and map alt 1-5 to switch between those

adastra22• 11 months ago

I think it is just us getting old. I used Linux since high school in the 90's, through all the way to the late 00's. I switched to OS X (long before it was macOS) because that's where all the and coming developer tools were, and I got tired of being sysadmin to my own Linux install as things break.

Now I'm the opposite of you. I WANT to run Linux, and I have both a recent Framework and Lenovo laptop at home that I bought for this purpose. But I have some issue with Nvidia drivers, or just stuck down a rabbit hole trying to configure a GUI the way I want, or whatever, and I give up and go back to macOS where everything is familiar and works out of the box. I'm too old and/or busy to deal with that shit, but it probably reflects my age more than it does macOS vs Linux.

wkat42423• 11 months ago

Yes but multi monitor in a Windows Centric office can also be troublesome because Apple continues to fail to support display port multi stream technology (MST) which means most docks will just give you one external display even if they have several. I've never understood why they're so bone-headed about this. It's not even a hard standard to support. It's just not invented here.

Only thunderbolt docks work properly but they cost a lot more so an office with 95% windows will not bother buying them.

I used to work on Mac management but the constant middle finger to enterprise needs got me to look for something else. For example, can you finally have apple federated IDs without having your email and UPN the same in the directory? This has been broken for years since they introduced federated IDs and I wouldn't be surprised if it's still broken.

rogerrogerr• 11 months ago

Curious, what is it that doesn’t make sense?

abdullahkhalids• 11 months ago

I can't figure out how to set a shortcut that moves the current window to my other monitor. Always have to go into the toolbar to do it.

Edit: And oh! Why do I constantly have to (painfully manually) maximize windows. Preview is constantly choosing a different size, for example. Why is this not remembered.

I can't recall the last time an application in linux forgot its size after restarting.

dghf2• 11 months ago

The difficulty in navigating to arbitrary locations in file open/save dialogs.

I wanted to attach a build log to a Teams post (maybe we shouldn't be using Teams on Mac, but it's a corporate decision that's out of my hands), and I could not for the life of me figure how to get the file-selection dialog to look at the relevant folder (which was somewhere under /private/). In the end, I had to use iTerm to copy the file to somewhere the dialog could find.

mrtksn4• 11 months ago

Considering that macOS is popular among even actual tech-illiterates, it is safe to say that their system is probably pretty logical and easy but since you are a power user on something else you will have to unlearn you previous ways of doing things. At some point it will click and you'll be fine.

j4coh• 11 months ago

Or, alternatively, non-illiterates have different needs.

afiori• 11 months ago

I never have MacOS a chance, I have only used it for some quick safari debugging sessions, but in the last decade+ whenever I see a UI trend that really bothers me, makes things worse and harder to use invariably after some time I discover that they were copying Apple's UI/UX.

So I suspect I would not like using apple devices

herbst4• 11 months ago

Same experience here. I wanted to like it, after all it appears to be exactly what I want. An professional, stable Unix system with enterprise support.

I was and am still surprised that I found nothing of that and even Ubuntu or fedora community look more "enterprise ready" to me these days.

skydhash2• 11 months ago

macOS is actively trying to hide everything unix these days and almost all the good features require building an app to access them (or buying one).

f311a2• 11 months ago

You can actually do that, there is asahi-alarm

carlosjobim• 11 months ago

Sell it and buy a PC.

solardev5• 11 months ago

As someone who grew up on DOS, Windows, OS/2 and Linux, macOS definitely took some getting used to (and I still have many gripes with it, especially the window management). Rectangle makes it better: https://github.com/rxhanson/Rectangle

That said, though, Macbooks are far and away the best laptop hardware you can get right now, and the combination of a POSIX/unix-like CLI environment and the ability to run common general-user desktop apps (Adobe/Microsoft/entertainment/etc) is very nice. On Linux you'd have to emulate some of the desktop apps, and on Windows you'd have to use WSL or Docker or such to gain a good *nix shell. And you'd have to put up with all the Windows ad spam and copilot spam.

But I do wish Apple would allow other operating systems on their laptops, and properly support them. I'd love to be able to properly BootCamp into Asahi or Windows for Arm with all the required drivers, etc.

samgranieri• 11 months ago

You can run Asahi Linux nicely on Apple Silicon

raffraffraff• 11 months ago

It took me two weeks of farting about with Rectangle, alttab, hammerspoon and karabiner to make MacOS not give me face cancer every time I had to use it.

I still kinda hate it because I can't get keyboard shortcuts to just fucking work. On the work MacBook I use the mouse more than I'd like because I can't reliably do stuff that I have done fluidly on windows and Linux for decades, mostly around keyboard cursor control, selection, jumping in blocks of words and paragraphs, sane use of home / end, page up/down etc. Just when I think I have it cracked, I try to select the next two words, or from cursor to end of line, and it's like "no sir, in this fucking app it does something completely different, good luck finding out why it how to fix it"

I agree about the hardware though. Since the early 2010s MacBook Pro has been the best hardware. Before the M series I had a MBP13 2015, and in fact, it's still the "kitchen laptop", running OpenSUSE Tumbleweed.

entrepy123• 11 months ago

regret my expensive switch from Linux to MacOS. MacOS is just so weird, it doesn't make any sense to me.

When picking up macOS, two things really help:

1. Having some macOS techies in your circle (co-workers or friends) to whom you can fearlessly ask random newbie questions, since there's a good chance there's a way that works well, which you are not discovering, and one or more people in your Mac User Friends group will have a good suggestion. (Maybe an LLM or Reddit can solve this, but real people are good, too.)

2. Leaning into whatever the macOS way to do the thing is. Don't try to do it the Windows or Linux way. Fall into the Apple paradigm. Don't fight it.

wkat42423• 11 months ago

The main problem I had was that apple is a really closed system. I'm not a one OS guy, i always need my stuff to work on windows, Linux, android etc. I don't even use iOS anymore because it's too limited.

Most of the things Apple offers in terms of cloud sync don't work on everything so it's a pretty but useless walled garden to me.

It's a shame because I was a long standing mac user. Because it was a good and fairly open Unix with a good UI. But since iOS became popular macOS has moved into a direction that didn't work for me anymore. They care more about locking users into their ecosystem now than anything else.

mbrochh• 11 months ago

Isn't that totally normal?

When I have to touch Android or Windows, I feel absolutely awful because I am used to MacOS and iOS.

Likewise, Android and Windows users will feel awful when having to use MacOS and iOS.

It's simply a matter of habit and experience.

Having used Windows and Android for 10+ years before switching to the Apple ecosystem, I can say with confidence though that MacOS is not weird at all. It makes far more sense than the insanity that is Windows/Android.

harshitaneja8• 11 months ago

I have been on an M1 macbook pro since launch and while I love the hardware, easily my favourite device I have ever owned but MacOS has just always been the thing to be the faustian bargain coming from being a linux person. I spend a lot of time SSHed into more GPU capable linux machines for most of my work and thus get an escape but after driving a friend's linux machine I started looking for a way to daily drive a linux machine. I tried Asahi Linux and also tried to find some non apple machines including with Snapdragon X Elite ones but so far I haven't found anything with good battery life and a decent linux driver support. So far Asahi linux with the reduced battery life seems to be the best bet. I don't mind tinkering. I love tinkering. I am not looking for "just works" but something which I could get to work after putting in the hours. If someone has suggestions please share. Edit: Sorry to go somewhat off topic.

heavyset_go• 11 months ago

If someone has suggestions please share.

Stay away from ARM laptops and SoCs, they aren't there yet when it comes to Linux. If you like to tinker, go for it, but expect hardware to just not work, or worse, you'll get stuck on a kernel fork that never gets updated.

If you want a good Linux machine, buy one from a vendor that explicitly sells and supports machines with Linux on them.

IMO you can tinker as much as you want without forcing hardware compatibility issues upon yourself in order to have something to tinker with.

harshitaneja8• 11 months ago

That seems to be the conclusion I have been avoiding to reach. With graviton and other arm based linux server machines being a good bulk of my work I hoped I wouldn't have to worry about multi architecture docker builds. Ah well.

Any suggestions for something well built but lightweight and that one could figure out how to get 8+ hours of actual daily usage battery life on?

E39M5S62• 11 months ago

The Thinkpad x13s is more-or-less there. I've been using it as my primary machine (and laptop) for the last month, and it 'just works'. All day battery life, fanless so it's dead silent, and a crisp screen with decent DPI. KDE and Vivaldi run as fast as my i7-13700 desktop.

nextos2• 11 months ago

If someone has suggestions please share

A recent ThinkPad with one of the latest AMD Ryzen U CPUs should have a very decent battery life. You just need some custom udev rules to set the right power saving states for different devices. Powertop should make this straightforward. IMHO, this is a great compromise, because you stay on x86_64 and Linux, you get within 3/4 of ARM's power efficiency, and hardware support is perfect. I've squeezed more than 11 hours from some models.

One thing that is often discounted is that Safari is marvel of power efficiency, which adds up to the efficiency of Apple M chips. IMHO, there should be dedicated Chromium and Firefox builds with compile flags and options that optimize efficiency. To counter that, running a barebones Linux setup is a good option. Keeping your CPU wakeups/s low lets you cross the 10 hour barrier.

harshitaneja8• 11 months ago

I use chromium based browser and applications so don't get to enjoy the benefit of the power efficiency gains of safari sadly.

Geat to know this about your experience with thinkpads. Due to your familiarity with multiple such devices would you be able to recommend a starting point for someone who wants something light with budget not being a constraint?

elteto2• 11 months ago

x86 Thinkpads + Fedora work great. Hardware support out the box is almost perfect (I would say perfect because I don’t recall anything not working, but I may be missing something). In fact, Thinkpads used to have Fedora as an OS option, which is why I think the support is so good.

Outside that maybe something like system 76. They advertise 14h for one of their models.

harshitaneja8• 11 months ago

x86 Thinkpads is what I am gravitating towards as well.

Regarding system76 I have heard really good things about their workstations but not about laptops. Have you used them? I recommend PopOS to anyone getting started with linux as the first distro though.

benreesman• 11 months ago

ASUD ProArt P16. I never want another machine. Slender, stiff, machined out of something expensive feeling. Everything works on 6.16, 4k OLED display, wonderful keyboard. Solid RDNA unit, NVIDIA card alongside.

With a clean hyprland setup, light as a feather, battery lasts forever unless you run it hard.

Makes M4 Macs feel bloated and cheap.

socalgal22• 11 months ago

that looks really nice

christophilus2• 11 months ago

How's the screen wobble, though. Every review I've seen of it, the wobble looks dramatic. My Dell XPS, on the other hand is rock solid.

harshitaneja8• 11 months ago

Will try to procure one for testing. It's a bit on the larger side for me though. How much battery life do you get on your average daily workload and what kind of workload is it? If you feel comfortable sharing.

Agreed about macs feeling bloated. I will not get overdramatic by calling latency in many functions unbearable but it is certainly quite high.

seabrookmx• 11 months ago

The Framework 13 Linux support is fantastic, and the hardware is pretty great too.

Battery is good enough (5-6hrs) for me on the AMD model (Ryzen AI 5 340) but definitely not Macbook territory in that regard.

I run Fedora and have coworkers who run Ubuntu and Arch as well without issue.

harshitaneja8• 11 months ago

I like Framework devices but yeah sadly haven't used one with battery life that works for me. I can get a bit more than 5hrs on macbook under Asahi fedora with my usual usage.

Framework is so close to having it all though.

keyle• 11 months ago

This is kind of a hard read. I'm no mac fanboy but at some point I decided to replace the frankenstein world of computing by something roughly coherent.

Clearly this person just wants hackability and tweakability, which Arch will give you in spades. All power to them!

I'd say this is a "fine" alternative, but not an upgrade.

+1 for using an ARM processor though. Once you leave x86 and the fan parade, there is no going back. Silence is bliss.

AstroBen2• 11 months ago

Omarchy never made much sense to me. The biggest benefit of Arch is that it's hackable and you can set it up exactly as you want it.. so why skip the entire process that teaches you how to do that?

runjake3• 11 months ago

Because some of us want that minimalism and a good “power user” default setup to tweak from there. I spent all of the 90s learning Linux deeply and custom tweaking everything and trying everything posted to freshmeat.net. I bootstrapped my own Linux from scratch before LFS was a thing.

Now I just want to get work down on an OS that feels like it belongs to power users and closely matches my deployment targets.

This is why I switched to Omarchy.

AstroBen2• 11 months ago

In that case it for sure makes sense, but for the user like the writer who is new to linux?

I'm very happy I went through the pain of setting everything up from scratch. It taught me how it all works. I just don't see how I'd get that same knowledge ever with Omarchy

cosmic_cheese• 11 months ago

I think people like Arch because it serves the purpose of blank slate pretty well and doesn’t have ancient package problems. It’s easier to build something like Omarchy for Arch than it would be for more opinionated distros.

dismalaf3• 11 months ago

Meh, I use LazyVim with Neovim. It's the same deal. I like Neovim but don't want to bother configuring it when someone else has a much nicer setup and are sharing it.

Hyprland and desktop ricing is the desktop equivalent of configuring your editor.

eviks• 11 months ago

Why waste time getting what you want starting from the bad defaults when you can do exactly the same starting with better defaults set up by someone else?

f311a2• 11 months ago

I recently switched to flashspace on macOS and it fits all my needs.

I would love to try a linux laptop, but I want decent battery and no fan. Arm support for linux desktops is still very very limited and buggy.

slashnode• 11 months ago

I’m surprised with what all worked out of the box, like hibernating, external monitors/keyboards, media keys. Not sure how much is thanks to DHH’s Omarchy, and what’s native Arch Linux support

It's pretty much ALL Omarchy. If you install Arch by itself you get a tty prompt... and that's about it.

Omarchy looks super impressive. Haven't used it myself, but the scripts and dotfiles in the Github repo (https://github.com/basecamp/omarchy) have been inspiring

jasoneckert• 11 months ago

I think the biggest takeaway from this blog post is that developers and other professionals should take more note of the tiling window managers available on Linux like Sway and Hyprland - they are insanely fast and customizable to exactly what we need to be more productive.

I'm a Sway user (ironically on Fedora Asahi Remix on a Mac) and I won't have it any other sway... er... I mean way.

WD-424• 11 months ago

To me it’s not even the tiling. It’s the ability to switch focus to windows in a directional manner. Like super hjkl or whatever.

I have no idea how people are still using alt tab in 2025.

baq9• 11 months ago

I have no idea how people are still using alt tab in 2025.

Everything is full screen almost always. In a week I need windows tiled for maybe 2h.

piskov7• 11 months ago

Komorebi on windows is the exact same thing

phkx• 11 months ago

I switched from MacOS (from a 12 year old first generation retina MBP) to Arch and started out with hyprland. It was really nice initially while I mostly used terminals, a browser or launched Steam. But when I needed to do some paperwork (taxes, stuff involving wide spreadsheets) I often ran into trouble, e.g. when I needed to read some numbers off a pdf quickly. Rearranging the tiling to have everything in appropriate size was rather slow. I often use overlapping windows in such cases, where I only need to see parts of a document and the floating tiles in hyprland just didn’t work for me (not as easy to arrange and so it felt clumsy). I moved on to KDE and that has been working great for half a year now. Maybe I‘m missing some functionality or just didn’t take the time to get used to it - stuff needed to get done ;)

wongogue2• 11 months ago

If you want to have tiling but don’t like windows being automatically resized or having to do any resize at all, try niri. It’s a scrolling tiling window manager based on PaperWM. It is in the Arch repository and a KDE plugin called Karousel also exists on the same PaperWM paradigm.

nickjj• 11 months ago

I got a laptop recently where I installed Arch / Hyprland (not Omarchy) but I know what you mean about overlapping windows. I do this all the time on Windows where I overlap windows and then toggle some of them as "always on top" to optimize whatever workflow I'm doing at the time.

The good news is Hyprland supports this quite nicely. I don't know when you last tried it but it's easy to float windows as needed in a dynamic way. You can assign a keybinding to toggle floating on a specific window and then you can move and resize it while holding either mouse button.

It also has a feature called "pin" to make something always on top which you can assign to a keybinding to toggle this as needed. Floating windows are already pinned by default on top of tiled windows so you only need to deal with this when you have 2+ overlapping floating windows.

Combining floating and pin together lets you overlap things in whatever way works best for you in a config-less way.

Optionally you can also pre-assign specific apps to always float or be pinned in your config file and toggle them with keybinds too.

commandersaki4• 11 months ago

I feel like I completely missed the boat on tiling WMs; I was a Linux user since '97 to 2002, and then for the most part Mac/Windows since then. I just deal with the chaotic madness of floating windows. I did try to spend a year on Linux as my work laptop with sway, and while tiling was just okay, I just felt less productive compared to my colleagues that were wizzes with it. Also using Ghidra with sway was incredibly painful, mostly due to the whole Java AWT thing, but it was a necessary part of my job.

I'm sure there's certain things that I do that are inefficient with floating windows - even despite with macos now having a bit of tiling management, but it's just easier to deal with on the brain. I'm not really organised or methodical for the most part and I kind of like it that way.

jmward01• 11 months ago

Power management in all aspects is one big thing that I wish was better in all distros. Hibernate/fans/shorter battery life are real usability things. I only use windows when I am at risk of being fired for not using it and macos is 'acceptable' but there are soooo many little things that make me cringe about it (.DS_Store littering every drive I touch is close to the top) but if I knew I could get mac hardware, including MPS backend working well in pytorch and battery life, with a solid distro guaranteed to work I would definitely buy that over all the pc hardware out there.

bee_rider2• 11 months ago

Linux is more likely to have to deal with something like poor/nonexistent drivers that mean a device consumes extra power compared to Windows. But,

* cpupower is pretty nice for manual control of your clock speeds

* the diversity of window managers allows you to have something like a mostly-black UI, which can help on OLED screens. You can even invert the screen color in X, if your programs insist on rendering black-on-white.

* not randomly cranking up the CPU for some windows whatever scan thing saves some power

dijit3• 11 months ago

Unfortunately, at the behest of Microsoft, manufacturers just came out with s2idle suspend and removed s3 suspend.

And it seems the only Microsoft has working support… so sleep issues continue to plague linux… again… after we just solved them.

It makes me so furious.

more info: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33608991

trueismywork• 11 months ago

Even windows have huge issuee.

greatgib• 11 months ago

My experience with mac is that yes it looks like to have longer battery life with less fan noise sometimes, but it might be by tricking you into a worse user experience of your machine.

For example, you computer to always go to kind of sleep when it is not necessarily what you want.

Like with the memory, you will not see app crashing upfront, but at some point macos stops all the other apps when you switch app. And like going from a web browser window, to a pdf, and back, or from a browser window to another, you will experience something like a 1s delay between your click and the window showing up from being minimized.

danhau• 11 months ago

I have not had this experience on my MB M2 Pro, although Safari can be quite sluggish.

throwawee2• 11 months ago

For over a decade I never heard anything good about Arch. The most common pitch was something like "it's fun to fix when it breaks", so I was completely blindsided when Valve based SteamOS off it. What did they see in it? I was due for a new SSD, so I decided I'd run it for a week or two. The moment it started being a nuisance, I'd wipe the drive.

That was years ago and I'm still on it.

boppo1• 11 months ago

What do you like better than debian?

throwawee2• 11 months ago

Don't know if you responded to the right person since I didn't mention Debian, but I did try it and the other major distributions a long time ago. Honestly, distros mostly felt the same to me apart from their repositories. Debian soured me by keeping its repo perpetually out of date. It's nice to never get burned by an improperly tested package, but never having the latest features and non-security fixes is less nice.

margalabargala2• 11 months ago

I run multiple arch systems and multiple Debian systems in my house.

Debian is great if what you want to do, is something that has been easy for 5 years. You set it up and forget it.

Debian breaks down whenever you try to do something new that requires some new dependency. Oh you want to run a Go program written in 2023? Now you have to download and install the new version yourself because the latest version in apt is 1.19. On arch stuff like that is generally not a problem. It's the best supported distro after the Debian based ones.

WD-424• 11 months ago

Debian is awesome for servers or systems that you just want to keep running without messing with it. On desktop though it’s nice to have, for example, Neovim is that is not 3 major versions behind.

sauercrowd• 11 months ago

Hardware support in the last years has really improved significantly. I was using arch a lot back around 2016, and it was a nightmare. On every kernel update had to recompile a kernel driver cause my laptops chipset was something bizarre, nvidia drivers were mostly half working and it all just felt like a fragile card house.

Ubuntu was by far the best option to actually use my system rather being constantly distracted by another little piece that fell out the wall

TiredOfLife3• 11 months ago

For over a decade I never heard anything good about Arch.

Probably from people who have never used it.

joshdavham• 11 months ago

How confident are people that Omarchy will be well maintained in the future?

I'm considering making that same switch from MacOS to Arch, but I'm not sure if I should have confidence in something like Omarchy which is relatively new.

dismalaf3• 11 months ago

Why does it need to be maintained? It's just an install script to install common apps on Arch and to install and configure Hyprland. It's not really a distro on its own.

weikju• 11 months ago

Hyprland might change. Other apps that are installed or even compiled might go stale or change. The chaotic-aur in use might change or need replacing. Arch or upstream packages might make changes causing issues eg some recent issue with a session manager that broke a lot of installs.

Etc.

chrisvalleybay• 11 months ago

If we look at how involved DHH has been with Rails since its inception, I trust Omarchy will follow the same path. This is his daily driver, and I don't think that will change after what happened with 37Signals vs. Apple.

bcye• 11 months ago

Adding to this, they are moving all developers at 37Signals over over the next few years, so I figure it will be quite maintained.

machomaster• 11 months ago

DHH made Omarchy the official developer distro/setup in his company, so it has the support of the stable commercial entity known for its support of open source projects.

kylemaxwell• 11 months ago

I swapped from Linux to MacOS when the M1s came out, and I love the integration with all the iCloud stuff (particularly Messages). Occasionally I miss being on Linux, as somebody who did so for 20+ years before making the switch. But on Mac, stuff actually does Just Work.

Reading this makes me a little misty-eyed and I miss my solid old Thinkpads from 10-20 years back.

notpushkin2• 11 months ago

I’m waiting for the second hand Arm ThinkPads to drop. Fingers crossed.

Eldandan• 11 months ago

Second hand as in used from this generation? Or second generation? I can't wait for windows on arm to finally fully get there.

notpushkin2• 11 months ago

Used ones, yeah. Companies used to sell off entire fleets when they upgrade, sometimes pretty cheap. I’ve bought a perfectly usable T420 for something like $50 about 10 years ago. (Naturally, it was 4 years old at that point, but still.)

Also curious about Windows on Arm, but my plan is to run Linux mainly (which hopefully gets better support at that point!)

nomdep• 11 months ago

Best thing about Omarchy is that is just a set of config files for Hyprland and Waybar plus bash scripts (even the screensaver is a bash script running in fullscreen )

throwmeaway222• 11 months ago

I don't know if anyone else agrees, but for some reason no one can replicate the smoothness of the Apple trackpad. And now with that PLUS the heatless apple silicon - I don't think I could go to another OS and the x86 hardware world. I would just feel like I'm in clunky-land. Now don't get me wrong, I like a lot about Linux desktops, but Mac gets a lot of things right. I don't want to take anything away from people migrating from Mac, but the PC didn't kill Desktop Linux, Mac did.

Tiberium• 11 months ago

I do agree that Apple Silicon is way, way more energy efficient and comparable to some top desktop x86 chips, but.. From reading different reviews and tests apparently it's normal for the CPU/SoC to reach a temperature of up 100C at full load, with the case being around 45-50C. Do you mean "heatless" as in specifically the outside case temperature - so those x86 laptops heat up the case way more than that?

crinkly• 11 months ago

As the owner of an M4 Pro and an Intel Ultra 7 laptop, the M4 pro is uncomfortably cold most of the time. The ultra 7 is uncomfortably hot.

The Mac sucks in the winter. The PC sucks in the summer.

The PC is however entirely unusable due to that without plugging an external mouse and keyboard in which is the problem.

numpy-thagoras• 11 months ago

My M4 Max under full load for audio transcode required manual fan curve changes to get the temperature down from 110º C (yes, it really got that hot) to 95º C (much better).

It doesn't even get that hot with LLMs running with max fans, where the SoC is about 80º C.

Aside from those use cases, the M4 Max runs 43º C or less even in summer conditions.

makeitdouble4• 11 months ago

no one can replicate the smoothness of the Apple trackpad

There are newer trackpad for Windows, and the Surface line had pretty good trackpad as well (not Magic Trackpad levels, but perhaps 80% there ?

The more surprising part to me when I gave up on the Magic Trackpad moving to windows is I was over it in a week. I only ever used trackpads for a decade, but mouse's just work that much better on Windows/Linux, especially getting the extra buttons actual physical click helped a lot. The paradigms are just different enough that the Trackpad makes less sense than on macos.

asabla• 11 months ago

I think so far some of the surface devices and some of the Razer (yes, the one making computer mices, keyboards and such) had been the closest.

7thpower2• 11 months ago

It helps that windows has excellent desktop management/hot keys out of the box, which is a majority of what the Mac trackpad does for me (aside from clicking on things).

ksec3• 11 months ago

the heatless apple silicon

To this day I still dont know why people worship Apple Silicon. Before it was even named and was mostly used by iPhone as A10, A11 and A12, when I stated these CPU are Desktop grade all I got was being laughed at. But then when it was put into usage by Mac using the same chip now known as M1, M2 etc. All of a sudden they are gold.

Apple did at one point has the leadership of PPW ( Performance per Watt ), but since then competitors have catch up. Qualcomm Oryon and ARM Cortex A930, even exceeding Apple if you look at other metrics. ( We will see what A18 has to bring us ).

-> the smoothness of the Apple trackpad

Because no other PC manufacturer is willing in invest into it and pay for it. For example speakers, it wasn't until Laptop reviewers paying attention and start saying how awful all the PC Laptop speakers were when compared to a MacBook before they started to improve. While Speakers were easier as it is low cost item. Trackpad isn't. But it got much better when Microsoft decided to invest into the PC ecosystem and Surface Laptop, so other PC manufacturers can take advantage of it. It still isn't quite as good as the one on MacBook. But Surface Laptop is pretty close, or may be just different as some would argue. Similar to Keyboard where Surface has the old MacBook 2015 scissors keyboard with better Key Stability, I value that as better than every keyboard that is currently with Apple.

anon70002• 11 months ago

What the fuck are you talking about. A current high end laptop CPU is the AMD 9955HX3D, with Geekbench 6 of 3161/19080 geekbench. M4 Pro is 3812/20076.

Why do I worship apple silicon? Because it’s literally the best performing processor for a laptop on the planet. I can use it for a full day of work from the couch on battery, no performance hit, RAM maxed out, containers running, the fans never turn on, and it barely even gets warm. Or yeah, I can plug it in like a desktop and run multiple 4k high refresh rate monitors. And it’s not even that heavy or bulky.

all of that in one package was unheard of in a laptop before Apple silicon.

If you’re saying that desktop processors are still better, ok, but that’s a different story with different requirements. My MacBook is smaller than just the PSU and cooler I need for my nice desktop CPU.

jillesvangurp• 11 months ago

I actually hooked up my magic trackpad to Linux at some point because I got so frustrated with the crappy touchpad on my Samsung laptop. I also have a logitech wireless mouse for it. Anything is better than that crappy touchpad.

The point is that Apple's magic trackpad actually works great on Linux too. Smooth, responsive. accurate, multi touch and gestures, and all the rest. Just works. More or less exactly like it does on a mac. Too bad the blueooth stack on Linux is a bit unstable. Lots of issues with stuff randomly not connecting. Which of course isn't great with a trackpad.

The issue is that trackpads from other manufacturers just seem to be universally really, really bad in comparison to Apple's hardware. Particularly anything produced by Synaptics that I've had the displeasure of using is just mediocre shit in comparison. And they seem to dominate the market. It seems like they just gave up even trying to pretend to compete. If you see somebody using a wireless mouse, 9 out of 10 times they aren't using a mac. I work in a lot of co-working spaces. Lots of macs. Almost exclusively being used without a mouse. Just not a thing. The trackpad that comes with it is fine. If you see somebody using a mouse, it's usually with a windows/linux laptop.

That Samsung laptop was something I used in between two macs. My old intel mac died weeks before the M1 was supposed to come out. I used it for about half a year. I still have it and it runs Manjaro. From a software point of view, I can do anything I need to do on it that I would normally use a mac for and I'm actually completely fine with using it for work.

But the reason I went back to the mac is the hardware. Intel/AMD laptops are so completely miserably dreadful these days. Apple makes great hardware. Great screens, keyboard, trackpads, CPUs, etc. You always end up compromising on at least a few of these. It will have a great CPU but a shit screen. Or it will be overheating all the time and have a loud fan. Or weigh 10 kilos. Or have a lot of blinking leds and a fugly formfactor. It's always something.

I have considered putting Linux on my mac a few times. I'm pretty sure I could kind of make that work but the thing is that mac OS works well enough and I have no technical need to switch. And I can't really justify spending a lot of time trying to get things like GPUs. sound, touchId sensors, etc. to work. And I would expect having issues with all of that.

But in a pinch, I can live with a decent Linux laptop. I'd probably go for something a bit more premium if I had to go there these days. But Arch/Manjaro are great and do everything I need and I vastly prefer that over Windows.

noisy_boy3• 11 months ago

Intel/AMD laptops are so completely miserably dreadful these days. Apple makes great hardware. Great screens, keyboard, trackpads, CPUs, etc.

Keyboard? Better than a Thinkpad keyboard?!

wolpoli• 11 months ago

A few years ago, I compared the trackpad on a ThinkPad T14 and a T14s and found that while on paper they are similar, the T14s has noticeably less friction with better tracking accuracy. I'll put blames on the PC vendors for playing around with their trackpad to sell higher end machines.

junga• 11 months ago

And even the T14s (gen 1) has a "cheap" trackpad with a plastic foil on top instead of a glass surface. The day before yesterday I did the upgrade from foil to glass on my T14s and it isn't the big leap I was hoping for. Sure, friction went down a bit but precession and gesture detection were good before already. The same upgrade on a T480s was a bigger improvement. Compared to my MacBook Pro (M1 Pro) the trackpads of my ThinkPads are always worse. Overall I'm in the same situation as the author of the article (if you substitute Arch for pop!_os with Cosmic) and totally agree with him.

ant6n3• 11 months ago

Too bad the trackpad software behaves differently on MacOs than the rest of the world - when using tap-to-drag, when you release your finger, the drag doesn't get released until like a second later (and the release delay can't be turned off, it's been like this for decades). So when switching between windows and mac often, there can be a lot of annoying miss dragging.

zozbot2345• 11 months ago

That's an intentional feature, to avoid unintentional "drops" due to mere involuntary twitches (which are way more common on a touchpad than a physical mouse).

(Another option on some touchpads is to require a second tap for the "drop" action, and otherwise just keep the dragging active. It takes some getting used to, but then it works quite well.)

riedel• 11 months ago

I am no fan of touchpads and I am using track points even on my external keyboard (I got a panic beginning of the year since you cannot buy non US versions from Lenovo anymore). However the touchpad on my Z13 is actually pretty decent. I got used to accept the emulation of haptic buttons.

sandreas4• 11 months ago

I did a lot of research regarding the trackpad situation on modern Linux and there are several reasons the macOS experience feels better for most people.

The most important one is indeed SOFTWARE/DRIVER implementation. Using a hackintosh, the feeling is not the same as a MacBook, but close (depending on which Hardware is used). Furthermore there is ONE UI framework (AppKit?!) which makes implementing things like inertial scolling and rubberbanding pretty easy in one Place. On Linux you have multiple App Frameworks (GTK, QT, ...), which is significantly harder to coordinate and the backwards compatible X11 stuff. Did you know that libinput has only one permanent maintainer (Peter Hutterer)?

Of course the amount of Hardware to support is significantly lower on apples side, which makes optimization easier.

Still, all in all I think the Linux touchpad experience is very close to macOS on my Lenovo T480s with a glass touchpad from a yoga 7 in Arch / GNOME. The only thing that really is not as good and what bothers me From time to time is Palm detection.

Retr0id4• 11 months ago

I use Fedora+Gnome on a 2021 MBP and the hardware+firmware+driver+software combination is perfect as far as I'm concerned.

jeroenhd3• 11 months ago

The only meaningful difference between my ThinkPad's trackpad and the one in my work Mac is that the Mac has a bigger one. I don't really get why some people seem to be under the impression that Windows laptops come with trackpads from the twenty years ago.

The CPU architecture is great and I hope Qualcomm will soon be able to replicate it in normal laptops. I don't think desktop users care about that as much, though, and macOS has just as many infuriating particularities as any desktop Linux OS. It just comes with better drivers.

jckahn• 11 months ago

You get used to the clunkiness after a while. It's a worthwhile tradeoff for actually owning your machine, IMO.

tobinfekkes• 11 months ago

no one can replicate the smoothness of the Apple trackpad

I thought this too for many years, but have found the trackpad on the LG Gram to be equal or better.

cycomanic7• 11 months ago

But the quality of MacBooks is just another level. I had 3 or 4 so far since 2010, and each of them held at least 5 years. Crazy good.

When I read things like this it really sounds like there is some reality distortion field in the mac world. How is that anywhere special? I'm running a thinkpad X1 as my 2 main laptops (it was my only work machine until 2 years ago) and I never felt the need to replace it. It gave me 8-10h battery life and the only issue I ever had was that 1.5 years ago the battery was reaching end of life and capacity started dropping very fast.

That was just a 70$ repair I could easily do myself.

My youngest daughter just inherited my mother's x220 (?) (she has been running Linux) that I got for my mother in 2011 or 2012. That never received any work and still works fine except that I didn't change the battery so you have to run it of ac power.

My older daughter and my mother both just got some used thinkpads that are >3years old and don't have any issues either.

So from my experience a 5 year lifetime for a macbook is really nothing special and definitely not "crazy good".

simonh3• 11 months ago

I don’t know what he’s talking about. I’ve not had a Mac last less than 7 years as a main workhorse, and my 2014 first generation 5k 27” is still going strong as a living room machine. It could still be my daily driver to be honest.

pjerem2• 11 months ago

I’d say it’s barely 3 things :

- The trackpad (but other manufacturers now have tolerable alternatives and anyway you can work without it)

- The screen : at an equivalent price point (and even more), nothing comes close to Apple screens. The cheapest MacBook have a better screen than most high end PCs.

- The audio : Apple truly did some sorcery to get such an awesome sound from machines that are flat as sheet. It’s so good that you can watch a movie on your MacBook without earbuds and don’t be bothered.

Everything else like build quality is overall better than most other alternatives but a few other manufacturers are also good at it.

I say this as someone who uses a MacBook for work despite loving Linux and who hates what macOS have become. The hardware is really that good.

lostlogin• 11 months ago

Some of the Apple integrations are so great. Copy and paste between devices, airdrop, call handling and messaging, the notes app, preview app. PDF handling (my god is the windows default hot garbage in comparison).

Yes, other apps and companies do this, but out the box there are some pretty great options from Apple.

gigatexal5• 11 months ago

This. My 2013 MacBook Pro lasted just shy of 10 years no issues.

My m3 max mbpro I only wish was the larger screen one and not the 13 inch one … oh well. But I suspect it will last me — and be passed down as well — 8-10 years as well.

The trackpads are second to none. So are the speakers. The screen are pretty good. I wish mine got even brighter but the m4s do. The keyboard is finally awesome.

The OS just works. In fact I moved from Linux to MacOS. I thought I’d miss i3 and sway but with Magnet and a launcher I don’t. I live in a terminal and can split that as much as I like. And gui apps Magnet does a decent job.

There are projects to go even further and you don’t have to leave MacOS for all the tiling love.

https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai https://github.com/nikitabobko/AeroSpace https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst

But I get basically everything I need with Magnet.

So TLDR I used to be a huge Linux head (I still am…) but I’m practical now and tired and macOS is a small price to pay for such amazing hardware.

More on why I left Linux as my main platform: https://gigatexal.blog/pages/no-perfect-workstation/no-perfe...

ant6n3• 11 months ago

The screen : at an equivalent price point (and even more), nothing comes close to Apple screens. The cheapest MacBook have a better screen than most high end PCs.

The screen is a mirrowy mess. PC Laptop with matte screens cost 500, MacBook 1500.

ozgrakkurt3• 11 months ago

Screens are not really that good. My 600$ lenovo has a way better screen than my m1 pro 16”

me551ah• 11 months ago

Also durability. I’m shocked that something that looks so good can withstand by downright abuse. I hold my MacBook Pro with one hand and fling it around and I’ve lost track of the number of times it has fallen down. But except for some chips at random places, it works perfectly fine

Sayrus• 11 months ago

As a mostly Dell user I'd add the camera and microphone: the difference in quality on a standalone laptop is just mind blowing. Audio output can be tuned with the right equalizer profile but microphone filtering and camera quality just doesn't come anywhere close to a Macbook.

romanovcode• 11 months ago

- The trackpad (but other manufacturers now have tolerable alternatives and anyway you can work without it)

It is my understanding that Apple did lock their trackpad tech behind a patent and that is why all the others suck. So it's really not their fault and it is very unfortunate if that's the case.

wolvesechoes• 11 months ago

Guy is talking about laptop lasting for 5 years as not something that is special, and you respond with awesome sound quality.

Apple threads are always so funny.

realusername2• 11 months ago

I agree for the screen and the audio but the trackpad on the mac is significantly different from any other laptop so you either love it or hate it. Personally I hate it and would rate it similarly as a cheap laptop. My brother loves it though.

goosedragons3• 11 months ago

The MBA screen is /alright/. It's better than a lot of Windows machines but you can get better for the price for sure. I'd argue the screens in the Surface line are comparable and arguably better, 3:2, brighter, 120Hz at basically the same price. And there's loads of 4K OLED Windows laptops if you're willing to pay for them.

Apple screens also tend to have pretty bad response times too. They are sharp and color accurate but fall down in places.

sudosysgen• 11 months ago

The screen point is just not true anymore. There are quite a few laptops at the ~1000$ price point with significantly better screens, such as the Zenbooks with OLED screens.

baq9• 11 months ago

Also add a very important feature of ‘lid is closed - the computer is asleep and it wakes up when lid opens’. Both windows and Linux are simply broken in that regard.

What I need is Apple MacBook hardware with a 100% supported Linux OS. This combination simply doesn’t exist and there’s no amount of money to make it happen (yes I know about asahi.)

kaladin-jasnah2• 11 months ago

Interestingly, I really don't like MacBook trackpads. The actuation force is too high for my taste. Maybe this has changed.

rangestransform• 11 months ago

The audio is magic because Apple overdrives their speakers by analyzing the signal to stay under the sustained power limit of the speaker, instead of clipping everything at the sustained power limit.

https://forum.devtalk.com/t/a-reason-why-mac-speakers-sound-...

winrid• 11 months ago

Apple screens are terrible. They use PWM at all brightness levels just to save a couple bucks and burn my eyes.

zackify• 11 months ago

The trackpad still cannot be beaten. Please someone show me one that can compare haha

gbalduzzi• 11 months ago

I believe there is a similar situation in the mobile space with iphones, at least here is Europe where they are not ubiquitous.

Most people use cheaper android phones, that are slower and with a much shorted timespan. then they try a 1k€ iPhone and it is great and conclude they prefer the iPhone to Android: it is not an apple to apple comparison, you should compare it to a 1k€ android lol.

Same things happens on laptops. If you try to use a 500-600€ laptop as work main machine for multiple years it will fall apart. Than you try a MacBook and it feels great because after 5 years is still usable.

mirzap6• 11 months ago

You simply can't compare anything to MacBooks. I had a Dell that I paid about $2,000 for, and it was really good (or so I thought). Then at work, I got a MacBook Pro, and that's when I saw the difference.

Its not only the Pros, no "high-end" laptop running Windows or Linux with just 8GB of RAM can perform better than a MacBook Air with 8GB. I don't know how Apple has optimized memory usage, but my personal feeling is that 8GB of RAM on Macs is equivalent to 32GB on non-Apple devices.

I'm not some Apple fanboy—I've been using Arch Linux daily for the past month or two, and it's great. However, there isn't a day that passes without screen freezes during peak usage, and I need to reboot every day or two. This happens despite having 32GB of RAM, an RTX 4060, and a Ryzen 5 7600. That never happens with my 5-year-old MacBook Air.

I really wish Linux were as good as macOS, I really do. I'm pushing myself to use it even though I experience frustration every day, but this simply isn't the case. It's easy to optimize the system and applications for one specific hardware configuration (like Apple does), but it's very hard, if not impossible, to do this for every possible hardware combination available today. That's why Linux and Windows can't win this performance battle.

poink2• 11 months ago

My experience in the mobile space from having a personal lab with all the flagship phones paid for by my employer was that the hardware on the Android phones was at least as good as Apple but everyone other than Google made the software side feel janky

It wasn’t bad, and I’m sure I’d just get used to it if I picked one and lived with it, the same way I’ve gotten used to Apple’s dumb photo app

Using them side by side made it really obvious tho

trinix912• 11 months ago

You can easily pay $1000+ for a Windows laptop and still end up with a worse trackpad or keyboard than what all MacBooks have. I've made that mistake myself.

amelius3• 11 months ago

Yes, buy a flagship Samsung phone and you'll see how Apple is lightyears behind in design.

anon70002• 11 months ago

Well, yeah, and my mom was using my old 2012 MBP until it was a decade too. Main reason to upgrade to an M1 Air was the battery and the performance improvement that comes with a decade of processor and efficiency improvements. And I bet that’ll last another decade. I sold my previous two work MBPs back to family members as well, which they’re still using.

And btw a used M1 Air, at almost 5 years old now, is still a great budget choice for anyone.

Author should have just put in a longer time frame.

hermanzegerman3• 11 months ago

No it isn't. If the cheap SSD inside has reached it's write limit it's a paperweight

cycomanic7• 11 months ago

As I said somewhere above, I am not trying to say that apple hardware is bad and I'm sure they last a long time (although when the battery eventually dies I heard changing that is not straight forward). My point is, that apple is not "crazy good" for making laptops that last 5 or even 10 years, that's just normal in the upper segment.

codeflo• 11 months ago

8-10h battery life

If you think that's even close to good, then it's you who lives in a reality distortion field. But so are all of the PC laptop manufacturers, reviewers and buyers. I don't get it.

I desperately want to move to a Linux laptop (I run it on every desktop PC I own, and I hate that I have to deal with a locked-down system). I've tried more laptops than is probably financially healthy for me. There's no price point that buys you even close to what an entry-level Macbook Air offers, not only in terms of battery life, but also weight, screen quality and keyboard.

cycomanic7• 11 months ago

> 8-10h battery life > If you think that's even close to good, then it's you who lives in a reality distortion field. But so are all of the PC laptop manufacturers, reviewers and buyers. I don't get it.

That's a laptop from 2016, IIRC at the time that was about the same you got out of a top of the line macbook. But I'm pretty certain that 2016 macbook would not have that battery life now, while I could easily swap out the battery and am back to 10h battery life.

noisy_boy3• 11 months ago

I hate that I have to deal with a locked-down system

But you don't hate a soldered down unupgradable system.

sensanaty3• 11 months ago

My work-provided M1 Pro (which I got brand new out of the box) will last all day if idle, but if I'm doing literally anything like even light browsing, the battery life is around 8-10h. More like 5 when I'm running my full local dev setup.

madduci• 11 months ago

I don't understand the claim. Since 2012 I have also.owned only Lenovo laptops and I've changed it only for a more performing one every 5/6 years, but they are still working flawlessly.

swiftcoder2• 11 months ago

So from my experience a 5 year lifetime for a macbook is really nothing special and definitely not "crazy good".

I doubt they are dead after 5 years - I have a number of decade+ old MacBooks kicking around the family, and they work just fine.

It's more that anyone in software is going to need to upgrade around the 5 year mark anyway, because too much shit has changed in the outside world (for example, Apple's transition to ARM processors, or Windows 11 requiring recent TPM support).

cycomanic7• 11 months ago

> So from my experience a 5 year lifetime for a macbook is really nothing special and definitely not "crazy good". > I doubt they are dead after 5 years - I have a number of decade+ old MacBooks kicking around the family, and they work just fine.

Yes I agree Apple make good quality hardware and I would be surprised if they died after 5 years. My objection is simply these statements that overly praise apple for things that are pretty bogstandard.

It's more that anyone in software is going to need to upgrade around the 5 year mark anyway, because too much shit has changed in the outside world (for example, Apple's transition to ARM processors, or Windows 11 requiring recent TPM support).

One more reason to run Linux.

crossroadsguy• 11 months ago

MacBooks are great laptops until the day they break and you are out of warranty; or you are in warranty and Apple in its infinite wisdom and power decides they are not going to honour that repair. So MacBooks are laptops which you use with the constant hope that it doesn't break.

So are MacBooks just another level? Of course not! If you have to use something with the constant fear of it breaking down (and then the only options remaining buying a new one or repairing at the cost often as much or sometimes more than the cost of laptop itself) then that's anything but great. But what infuriates me is people asking "but how many times has that happened?", well, enough times in about half a lifetime! And their extra warranty (which are for + or +2 years, not sure) now cost a lot more than it cost the last time (w.r.t device price) I bought their extended warranty in 2012.

The problem is other than repair bankruptcy, other laptops, esp. at the lower segment of macs (Air et al), there really are not many good laptops in those prices. X1s are costly laptops. But if they offer comparable features then I'd say for repairability alone they will be great replacements.

and don't have any issues either.

It's very different from something being great. While I absolutely hate Apple making their devices impossible to repair and fact more so making it an unwise decision to even try to repair for the cost, their laptops are actually quite good. But it stops there. Their phones are like ages behind competition and they have a business because of a captive/hostage user base :)

eptcyka• 11 months ago

I use both, have not spent money on buying personal macbooks, have bought many a thinkpad. I have had to repair far more thinkpads than I have had to get macbooks repaired, the batteries last longer on macbooks. I still prefer linux to macOS, but hardware wise, I’d much prefer an m4 to an x86 thinkpad.

socalgal22• 11 months ago

I agree with your point that 5yrs is not "crazy good"

I have a mid 2014 15.6" Macbook Pro. It still runs fine. Apple doesn't support it though. I'm also not claiming 11 years is "crazy good" either.

On the opposite side though, I don't like giving old machines to non-techies. I'm actually planning to get rid of that 2014 MBP since it's sat plugged in but basically unused for 4 years, but I don't like the idea of a non-techie taking it and not getting security updates. If someone wanted it I'd prefer they know what they're getting. Sure it will view websites, run video from youtube, etc... but no support. Runs crazy hot too.

phantomathkg• 11 months ago

Why not recycle it? I thought Apple in general can trade in old device?

herbst4• 11 months ago

Every ThinkPad I ever owned is still setup and waiting to be used. My T420 is about 14 years old and I still use it from time to time. It was older than 5 years when I got it.

msh• 11 months ago

I think that a lot comes down to apple only selling quality laptop but a brand like Lenovo sells both cheap crap and quality laptops.

So if you tell someone buy a apple laptop you know they will get a good laptop but if you tell them to buy a Lenovo they might end up with the worst crap.

Novosell• 11 months ago

I believe this is one of the main contributing factors in people who strongly prefer iOS devices over Android as well. With iOS, there are no options really. You buy high end or you don't buy. With Android, people will end up buying some 150-200€ phone and being shocked it doesn't compare to their 1100€ iPhone.

articsputnik7• 11 months ago

that's a good point. and for sure also one element of why we discuss using past each other here in the comments for some things

pjmlp2• 11 months ago

Same here, my personal computers are from around 2009, the latest one from 2018, all PC laptops.

At work, my Thinkpad from 2021 is still holding on, and has higher specs than entry level MacBooks from 2025.

ho_schi• 11 months ago

My X220 from 2012 also runs fine. I use now use a X13 because AMD Zen3+ is faster and provides much more battery runtime. The magnesium chassis and the crisp keyboard are awesome.

This stuff last long:

    * Build quality, regarding chassis and screws.
    * Replacement parts are available. Hardware maintenance manual is available. A broken palm rest is something fixable.
    * Handle it with care.

Most people don’t care about the cheap consumer laptops. Neither the manufacturer nor the consumer. Windows degrades quickly through updates, software bloat (e.g. Electron) and anti-virus snakeoil makes everything slow and unreliable.

The biggest issue of ThinkPads is that the L-Series can be purchased (same hardware, bad chassis) and that bad panels can be ordered. Recently Lenovo removed the HiDPI panel option from the X13. Which is the worst possible idea. Another dumb idea is the ugly and useless camera bump protruding from the panel.

Apple takes always a lot money from and prevents these mistakes. But Apple loves to deliver bad keyboards. And the aluminium chassis is bad in comparison to magnesium chassis (much better feeling, never hot or cold).

Avoidable mistakes. None of these are hard challenges. As the biggest mistake “six rows keyboards”. The complete industry ruined laptop with 16:9 and after a decade we’re allowed to enjoy the much better 16:10 again. The keyboards are still small, squeezed things with awkwardly grouped keys. The X220 keyboard is a masterpiece in layout.

dijit3• 11 months ago

an x220 also costed the same as a macbook pro at the time.

(I know, because I had both, fully upgraded)

ajuc• 11 months ago

I bought Lenovo laptop back in 2016. It's still working - now as a media Control center. The only problems with it were LCD screen showing "deglueing" like there's a drop of transparent liquid behind the screen in 1 corner, and keyboard not working for a few keys. Neither are relevant for the current application.

Both problems appeared long past 5 years of usage, more like 7-8 years after I bought it. In fact I don't remember having a computer fail on me in within 5 years since I bought it. And I was buying cheapest crap possible for majority of the last 25 years.

I don't have much experience with Macs, but from talking with friends it seems they break more not less often.

articsputnik7• 11 months ago

OP here, thanks for the comment. True, I should have elaborated a bit more. Actually my 10 years old MacBook is still running as my wife's computer and the 15 years computer, I gave to a friend, which used it for a long time (not sure if still).

My comparison was with Windows PCs, that always were super slowish after 2-3 years. The built quality always felt cheap. The battery was done after 2 years. Maybe it was also an unfair comparison, that I bought cheaper PCs, but at work I recently had to a dev HP laptop much later, and I had a very similar experience.

So maybe the problem is more windows than the PCs, but if you have used MacBooks, then you definitely know the difference. Running a Lenovo now, I love the much other things. Let's see how long it holds. ThinkPads are defenitely in a similar categories as Macbooks, kind of unbreakable. Love them too.

zozbot2345• 11 months ago

My comparison was with Windows PCs, that always were super slowish after 2-3 years.

If a Windows PC is "super slowish" after 2-3 years, that's a Windows problem. You may want to run Linux as your main OS and booting Windows in a VM only for critical needs. Good Linux installs don't get "super slowish" at all unless you're running them on real bottom-of-the-barrel hardware.

ndriscoll• 11 months ago

Definitely just a Windows issue, and even there I'm sure Windows 7 (the last usable Windows) on a 10 year old computer with an SSD would still feel fairly snappy. I use Linux on a ~9 year old computer and everything except editing photos/videos is instant. I don't know whether to expect demosaicing to be faster on newer CPUs. IIRC a new CPU might have hardware decode for 10 bit 4:2:2 h265, so that would help.

noisy_boy3• 11 months ago

Indeed. I'm running 2019 Thinkpad X1 extreme gen 2. Runs a bit hot but still snappy with latest Fedora KDE edition. Just had to do a 100$ battery swap. The all aluminum chassis of MacBooks are lovely indeed; however considering I like the UI flexibility Linux provides and the crazy premium Apple charges for higher specs, it is pretty hard to justify.

nullify88• 11 months ago

I have an 2015 X1 3rd Generation Broadwell ticking along running Fedora KDE too. My Enter key is cracked and some of the speakers are failing, battery health at 70% was my daily driver for its initial 5 years now it primarily runs a browser and vscode. Still very capable No problems with sleep or wake, even Intel Rapid Start hibernation works although is a huge security hole.

BoredPositron• 11 months ago

Try to get replacement parts for a random xy-20003940-fe laptop they are not there or not there anymore after 3 years.

jeffhwang• 11 months ago

I’ve had 5 personal Mac laptops over the last 25 years. And all of them overlapped their service lives bc I usually had 2 active laptops at a time. None were the Pro, just iBooks and MacBook Airs.

The one I just retired was my portable workhorse from 2014-2024. I got annoyed towards the end bc the latest OS wasn’t supported (but still got security updates for my old macOS version at least).

Overall, I never needed to replaced battery, hard drive, cpus, screens or really any of the hardware on any of them over 2 decades. And I got at least 6 yrs out of each one.

mattbrewsbytes• 11 months ago

I think it comes down to quality of materials and manufacturing. It would be interesting if someone knew of failure rate data of laptop manufacturers. I bet Apple's is far lower than others, maybe this is because they control the OS and firmware, etc. I don't care enough to go research but an HN thread isn't likely representative of "normal" laptop users.

I'm not an Apple fanboi, I have a lot of linux experience, back in the day built a Tivo like linux PC with TV capture card as a DVR and had to mess with all sorts of X11 settings, etc. Used to build PCs for gaming and mess with settings. The whole It Just Works is true with Apple, everything hardware wise is smooth. The annoyances of Apple software to me don't bubble up to the level of wanting to switch, but articles like above make me think about getting a cheap Mini PC to play around and see if things like Omarchy make the level of messing with settings much lower than it used to be.

nvarsj• 11 months ago

I’ve never had 8h of battery life on a Thinkpad. More like 3h. Also my last two T series stopped working completely after ~4 years (dead motherboard / broken usb-c ports / cracking casing). The speakers, screen, touchpad all suck as well, let's be honest. The best thing about a Thinkpad is the keyboard and that it can run Linux.

I finally gave in and bought a MBP M3 Max 14" and the thing is a beast. Multiple days of battery life. Beautiful display. Indestructable casing and USB ports. Speaker quality is amazing - I can play music and podcasts in the background on it when traveling - I could never do this on any Thinkpad. The only thing it sucks at is the keyboard and OS X, but I've learned to live with both.

Doubt I'll ever go back to a Thinkpad or any non-macbook laptop until a company makes a similar quality one I can run Linux on.

odo1242• 11 months ago

It’s true if you buy/compare a random MacBook and a random PC. A 5-year lifespan and good performance is basically guaranteed for all Macs, but you have to make sure you don’t have one of the crap Windows PCs (the ones that do stuff like spinning hard disk boot drives, motherboard attached to flimsy frame without reinforcements, 4GB RAM, etc.)

Even considering this most people still tend to underestimate the lifespan of Windows PCs lol

uuddlrlrbaba• 11 months ago

Compare their used values at 5 years

fHr• 11 months ago

yep agree, people have really been brainwashed into thinking this isn't normal wtf

W3zzy3• 11 months ago

We run dell or HP laptops at work. After 3 years they get replaced. I usually buy my old work laptop to use it for personal use or to hand off to my family.

Tge first one I bought in that way is still working after 14 years. I converted it from Windows to Linux a few years ago and My mother uses it for browsing, banking and email. Personally I'm using a 7 years old HP.

Batteries get upgraded when necessary and first thin I do after buying is adding RAM.

I don't get how 5 years is a good lifespan on a Mac?

baq9• 11 months ago

The point is corporate wouldn’t need to replace the Apple MacBooks after 3 years. I’ve got an M1 air bought what feels forever ago and it’s still as fast as I need it to be. I’ve also been using hp laptops in my previous job and they couldn’t even wake from sleep when needed (but would wake in backpacks to the point IT explicitly forbade putting sleeping laptops in bags. Absurd.)

footy• 11 months ago

I had a MacBook once that lasted for 13 years, and that's what I used to assume people meant by "crazy good lifespan".

Once on this site I saw someone talking about how the lifespan is so good they only had to replace their MacBook every two years instead of every year, and it just made me realize "crazy good lifespan" is meaningless.

joaogui1• 11 months ago

Not necessarily meaningless, but maybe relative, i.e. a person who generally replaces non-Apple laptops every X years would replace MacBooks every Y years, with Y > X

amelius3• 11 months ago

it really sounds like there is some reality distortion field in the mac world

It's probably because when everybody including your mom and dad has an Apple device, you really need something like the RDF to stay cool.

Anyway, I don't understand the evangelism around Apple. Evangelism is by definition toxic.

slater• 11 months ago

Yes, it couldn't possibly be because, y'know, Apple devices are actually good.

throwaway31131• 11 months ago

Defect rate is a probability distribution so some people will get 10 heads in a row and others will get 10 tails, and since it’s the internet, and since it’s kinda amazing we hear about both. But most people get a mixture and post nothing.

Every IT survey I’ve ever seen shows Macs as more reliable. On the other hand the repairs are often more expensive. So there’s a trade off.

For me, my M1 16” is a champ. The computer is almost too good. I’d like to upgrade but honestly there’s no reason to so I just can’t get myself to ditch a perfectly good computer.

deltarholamda• 11 months ago

I set up some Thinkpads from (I think) 2004 to use during Covid when some employees were doing work from home. Replaced the rust drive with an SSD and they used VNC to get onto their work desktops. It's a CAD shop with most everything on the server, so it's not feasible to do WFH with a laptop (not enough grunt, moving data over the Internet is slow), and it made much more sense to just do VNC.

This worked quite well. The Thinkpads were even (just) fast enough to do YouTube.

The point is that it really quite depends on what your workload is. If I made them use AutoCAD on these machines from 2004 they'd quit. This particular workflow was not ideal, but doable.

I have a 2020 M1 MB Air that I would love to replace, but it would be daft to. I don't bump up against any limitations. One of my kids uses my old 2011 MB Pro for his school, which granted I did upgrade to an SSD as well, but even so it's quite usable.

Mac hardware has been pretty consistently good for a very long time. They've had some stinkers (hello MacTV), but otherwise you can usually depend on them.

Like others I'm not thrilled with some of the OS changes, but the alternatives aren't a lot better. Windows keeps shooting itself in the foot, and chasing the Linux desktop is an exercise best left to those young enough to have the patience. I'm so done with distro-hopping.

coliveira3• 11 months ago

I think the issue of 5 years is not hardware, but software instead. Windows gets somehow bloated and unusable after a few years. Every time I used Windows machines they have to be reinstalled with the OS after some time. With macs I have been using them non-stop since 2010 and never had that problem.

conradev• 11 months ago

Also worth noting that Apple actually defines and decides the lifetime of their own computers using software support, whereas Windows and Linux typically support hardware indefinitely (that might be changing with Windows 11).

My sister had a 2011 MacBook Air until it stopped getting software updates in 2020.

jaredklewis• 11 months ago

IME I tend to get a new MacBook every five years or so just because I like new hardware, but none of my old MacBooks were anywhere near end of life after 5 years. One I gave to a relative was in use for around 13 years until it failed (but it was really abused so I actually think it was a good run).

My wife’s MacBook Air is 12 years old and my wife doesn’t want a new one (though it would drive me crazy). No issues yet, though obviously battery is not what it once was.

Anyway, I think MacBooks last much longer than 5 years if you can control your new hardware envy.

ericmcer• 11 months ago

My gf uses my ~10yo air and it is amazing she can stand it.

Just website inefficiency creep has made older devices obsolete, I think it has around 4gb of Ram which Chrome can chew through with a few tabs open.

anonzzzies• 11 months ago

I like thinkpads and use my x220 from 2012 or what is it quite a lot. For my work, it beat my mbp 16' intel one I had in 2019 on just feeling faster (with Linux). But the apple silicon airs (for me airs: pros are just too bulky) ones are not beaten at the moment. And I try a lot as I really want to run Linux and not mac os x. But there is nothing better for many reasons (most mentioned here and yeah I could care less about the sound). I sponsor asahi linux for that reason. If Chinese vendors would be smart, they would open up whatever hardware they ship and get all geeks on board which pushes the rest. They are not though so for now, it's macbook airs for me. Hoping for Frame.work to get there though.

jayd16• 11 months ago

Fit and finish is good and Apple has been good at leveraging minimalist designs in premium materials. Even if a MacBook is very old, it's hard to say it looks or feels old.

And the real irony is past 5 years it drops off a cliff because of Intel Mac End of life.

Most people really don't care about tech specs for a daily driver. I mean, I love specs but my coffee table laptop is a Google Pixelbook (2017) with a metal body and ancient junk inside, but it still feels good to use.

turtlebits• 11 months ago

Nothing matches the build quality, display and general feel of macbooks.

IME, (possibly outdated), but thinkpads have some of the worst quality displays I've ever seen.

SXX• 11 months ago

Thinkpad x1 do have good 2.8K displays, but almost everywhere around the world they just far more expensive than comparable Macbook Air.

unethical_ban• 11 months ago

Yes they are that good, and "lasting five years" might not mean physically functioning vs not. It could be "meets my computing needs". Yes it could also mean "before the nonservicable battery dies".

I have a 2008 Acer, a 2018 Thinkpad, a 2019 HP, a 2024 framework, and a 2024 MacBook.

I can't stand 1080p for personal use anymore, and never in my life on Windows or Linux have I gotten more than 4 hours out of a battery.

Framework competes on repairability, price and OS choice. Pound for pound, MacBook is a much better piece of hardware.

setopt• 11 months ago

My 2021 M1 MacBook is still good, but my 2020 Intel MacBook Air (16GB RAM) has felt unusable since 2022 or so. After upgrading macOS past Big Sur it just got unusably slow, would randomly hang or have high idle CPU usage, battery power was short lived, and it was constantly hot. I therefore downgraded it to Catalina and was happy to have my laptop back, until Homebrew and App Store wouldn’t let me install new things anymore, then I upgraded it to the latest macOS again and found it unusable again.

Now I’m not sure whether to install Linux on it (I’ve used Linux as my main OS before the Mac), or try to downgrade to Catalina again and just build whatever software I need from source.

rock_artist• 11 months ago

There are two points I feel are worth focusing and I’ve experienced similar:

- Linux is fast. Few years ago I wanted to run Linux and used my MacBook Air 2013 (one of the best machines I’ve had). It was amazing how Ubuntu ran so sleek especially comparing to the MacBook Pro 2018 with macOS.

- x86_64 feels less portable than arm. Since I got MBP from my work I’ve also got another machine for Windows. I’ve went with 13” MSI Perstige with 125H which was the latest back then offering hybrid cores (performance + economy). It’s 1kg is amazing and the OLED is also nice. But in order for the machine to actually compile and be snappy I need to ensure it’s not dropping to 0.4-0.8Ghz and then it easily gets warm and noisy.

The MBP 2021 also shows age. But even with more frequent fans and 80% of original battery it outperform the younger MSI since day one.

TL;DR

* Unless you need specific software, Linux distros are great and fast. Much more joy (imho) than Windows.

* SoC/ARM is still rare but it would be much more interesting comparison to current Macs in terms of portability (fans, battery life)

mproud• 11 months ago

“Permanenent?”

deafpolygon2• 11 months ago

It’s only 2-3 weeks in total that I run it full time.

Oh. Still in the honeymoon phase.

gtsnexp2• 11 months ago

The dream: an Arch-friendly laptop that runs as cool as Apple Silicon, with Apple's monitor, Apple's trackpad, Apple's audio. Ask HN: What am I looking for?

ulbu2• 11 months ago

macbook + asahi

gtsnexp2• 11 months ago

Has Asahi reached maturity yet?

christophilus2• 11 months ago

Dunno, but my Lenovo with Intel Aura is cool, quiet and runs for a long time. Its speakers are great, too. It’s comparable in those respects to a MacBook Pro (which I also own, M4). I never use the MacBook, though. I can’t stand osx. The Lenovo screen isn’t as good, though. I still prefer my 5-year old 4K oled xps.

pjmlp2• 11 months ago

As usual these kind of posts are from people mostly using Apple's hardware as pretty UNIX, and not really as developers into the Apple ecosystem, the Cult of Mac crowd.

The same that fill FOSDEM corridors with MacBooks, despite the main purpose of the whole weekend, or at least how its roots were almost 30 years ago.

wkat42423• 11 months ago

Yes I was one of those. But I've moved off Apple years ago because their UNIX got more and more delapidated and all their fancy cloud stuff was unusable to me for not working on all my OSes.

Every new release I'd tick off more and more features that were unusable to me, hated all the iOSification of a desktop OS, and hated the new hardware lockdowns. The actual new features I liked were few and far between. So I just gave up on Apple completely. I had already left iOS at that point because of its locked down nature (no alternative appstores mainly and no hardware support for OpenPGP cards over NFC)

reacharavindh• 11 months ago

fan noise.
battery level not the same.
touchpad.

The reasons for not using Linux on the laptop remains the same after decades :-(

stainablesteel• 11 months ago

i've been using linux for over a decade and had none of these problems on 5 machines that i'd installed it on

XzAeRosho• 11 months ago

It really depends on the driver lottery. Do you have good driver support? Good, you'll have a mostly flawless experience. Generic drivers? You either get weird cpu usage patterns, or perfectly normal behavior. Maybe an update will break everything. Welcome to the Linux Driver Lottery.

It's really good nowadays, but the issues remain the same sadly, and it's not Linux devs fault either, it's just the manufacturer lack of support.

frou_dh• 11 months ago

Sorry, but even as a computer geek, I will never delude myself into thinking crude TUIs are a step up for local applications.

SwiftyBug4• 11 months ago

I've been finding myself liking TUIs more and more. I've been using lazygit, lazysql, and lazydocker for over a year now, and not once have I felt the need to use their native GUI counterparts. I'm getting to the point where I wish almost everything was a TUI. I think that as a macOS user, TUIs are simply better if your goal is to rarely leave your keyboard's home row, especially when TUIs implement common vim patterns like slash for search and hjkl for navigation.

creakingstairs2• 11 months ago

And most important, instant workspace navigation. The reason why I was upset with Apple: with the latest update, Yabai didn’t work flawlessly anymore

I just wish Apple would let us have instant workspace navigation. It is pretty much the only reason why I wrestle with getting Yabai working on every major OS update. There is “reduced animation” setting but it has a short fade in-and-out animation and it drives me crazy.

SwiftyBug4• 11 months ago

Same thing for me. Except that I don't feel comfortable disabling everything that needs to be disabled for Yabai to work. My solution was to use AltTab[1] (switch windows, not apps) and not use the fullscreen options. I keep windows sizes maxed, I don't have the Dock visible. I just need to alt + tab to quickly switch windows.

[1] https://github.com/lwouis/alt-tab-macos

boronine• 11 months ago

I also used yabai for this purpose but found a solution that doesn’t require messing with security: https://www.boronine.com/2025/02/09/Instant-Workspace-Switch...

creakingstairs2• 11 months ago

Using native functionality, you have the option of a seizure-inducing sliding animation or an equally time-wasting fade

Amen.

I tried switching to Aerospace, but it would become visibly laggy when connected to an external display and switching a screen that had Zed open for some reason. So I've switched back to Yabai :(

porridgeraisin2• 11 months ago

I am still in the market for a laptop that a) has good linux drivers b) has a big battery ~80wh or more c) metal build d) good touchpad, screen, keyboard, e) strictly no dGPU. I genuinely don't care about the CPU, all of them are good enough for me. Although I suppose if I'm going to be spending on a laptop in 2025, I will be looking for one with 24 or 32GB of RAM instead of 16GB.

Macbook Pros satisfy b), c), d) and e). I currently have an HP laptop that satisfies a), c), d), and e). But is just 43Wh (now 36Wh after a few years).

sylens• 11 months ago

I realize touchpad quality is subjective but is a Framework 13 not an option?

porridgeraisin2• 11 months ago

55-60wh battery unfortunately. That cuts off 2.5hrs-ish of usage on linux, compared to 85wh laptops.

Didn't hear great things about the build quality and touchpad although these were just reddit reviews.

I really like the repairability though, so I'll be watching their product line.

samrolken• 11 months ago

I might consider something like this, but I can connect four monitors to my MacBook Pro. How easy is it to find a Linux-friendly laptop which can also do this?

Wilder7977• 11 months ago

How? Finding a Mac docking station that works with 2 monitors is already a lottery. 70% of people in my company, me included, ended up plugging the HDMI directly into the mac (and a DP into the docking station), while the same docking station worked flawlessly with 2 monitors on Linux. I haven't tried four monitors, but I have to say that multiple monitors handling is something so far I would list under the downsides on Mac.

SSLy• 11 months ago

macos only supports multiple display outputs over one cable if it's thunderbolt.

flakeoil• 11 months ago

I'm curious. Why do you need four monitors for you workflow? Is it to avoid using Alt-Tab or similar to switch between apps? Do you have to be able to see all four monitors at exactly the same time? Couldn't having two monitors and two app screens on each monitor work?

I'm not questioning you, just curious and wonder if I miss something using only one monitor and Alt-Tabbing my way around.

btbytes• 11 months ago

Common things in all these Pro-Apple threads:

1. Macbook users who have/are using non-Apple laptops that find the average work-issued Intel laptops to be just meh or worse.

2. People that only buy some exclusive Lenovo, Framework laptops (that are not that common out in the real world (e.g: in US)) refuse to acknowledge the positive experience of Macbook owners.

I have had only 3 personal MacbookAir/MBPs since 2006 (and the previous i5 Mba is perfectly functional after a battery replacement and a HDD upgrade - sitting next to me running Mint Linux, that I plan to hand off to my 10yo.)

In the meantime, I've also had 4 other MBPs and 3 windows laptops through work.

In no way and form, the intel laptops were/are better than the macbooks on average.

mythz• 11 months ago

I've owned several laptops over the years and have come to regret each of my non Apple laptop purchases which never got more than 3-4 years life without some hardware failures, Surface was the worst which died after 10 months of low sporadic usage.

Whilst my gen 1 MB Air has been too slow for anything, my 2013 MB Intel still looks and runs great which the kids still make good use of. My latest M2 MB is by far the best I've ever owned with great build quality, performance, battery life where it's the first time I can confidently travel without a power brick.

Whilst Apple's non-Desktop hardware is always best-of-class, I've become increasingly dissatisfied with the direction of macOS and Windows which IMO have both become power-user-hostile and have switched to a Linux desktop full-time. Everyone's been predicting the year of the Linux Desktop for 20+ years, but I believe we're at a turning point for Linux adoption with Windows 11 becoming an intolerable ad/spyware infested marketing platform and Apple's continued ignorance of developers and ambitions of turning its neglected macOS into a locked down appliance.

Hopefully Valve can continue their investments in Steam Deck and Arch Linux to accelerate the adoption, their contributions to Proton have already IMO unblocked the biggest barrier to adoption. Whilst currently a happy Fedora user I like the direction, taste, philosophy and community behind Omarchy from what I've seen after kicking the tires in a VM, will look into switching over after they bring out their ISO.

BoxOfRain• 11 months ago

I used a 2015 MacBook Pro up until 2021 when I replaced it with its M1 successor, the 2015 MacBook went to a sibling where it's still their main machine. Apparently it works fine, a little slow but perfectly usable for decade old hardware.

I'm in a similar position to you OS-wise, I still use my Mac for things I specifically need macOS for but my main OS is definitively Linux these days. I use Kubuntu at work and CachyOS at home, needing a machine with a decent GPU for some of my projects got me back into PC gaming after a decade or so and gaming on Linux is actually good now which surprised me. People meme about the year of the Linux desktop but modern KDE is legitimately really good and certainly the least annoying UX out of the major desktop OS environments in my opinion.

didibus• 11 months ago

Ya, the hardware is just too good, and I guess a combination of software and hardware that delivers the instant sleep/wakeup and killer battery life.

But the UX of MacOS is just okay I'd say.

I need to heavily customize it, adding proper alt+tab, speeding up the animations, and so on.

jimkleiber• 11 months ago

I'm curious, how do you customize it?

commandersaki4• 11 months ago

My take is we'll see a surge of adoption with Macbooks if they release their rumoured budget laptop that maintains the reliability, light usage performance, and calibre of their Macbook lineup since the inception of M-series -- before or around the EOL of Windows 10: https://www.macrumors.com/guide/a18-pro-macbook/

vishnugupta• 11 months ago

my 2013 MB Intel still looks and runs great

I switched to MacBook in 2017. My first MB was a pleasure to use, solidly built and the keyboard a delight for a touch-typist.

But then Apple got crazily fixated on making them thin. By God they are some of the worst physical devices I've ever owned. That butterfly keyboard is so bad to the point of being non functional.

Fortunately they course corrected with M1 onwards. I still have their immediate predecessors of M1 as a secondary/backup device. While the spec is maxed out the physical device is just bad.

extraisland3• 11 months ago

I am the opposite. I've regretted every Apple computer purchase I've made. Their phones are well made

- iBook g4 12 inch. GPU died. Known fault.

- Mac mini. Ended up using this as a build machine for iOS. Had to replace the hardrive outside warranty. Took me about 2 hours to do. Now is running Debian and is a Minecraft server.

- Macbook Pro 2014 - dead. Glue'd on battery, ended up paying a local Mac repair guy to do the job. A year later The power brick (official) burned out the power lines on the motherboard.

Now the PC laptops are all still running.

- Dell E6410 - still works, Debian 13.

- Dell D-series - still works, window xp 64bit

- Thinkpad T480 - still works Debian 13.

The non apple hardware I can normally repair myself and thus I can keep it running forever.

mark_l_watson2• 11 months ago

I would like to make the switch but I inherited a 7K Apple Studio monitor when my Dad died two years ago and I fear that I will never get full use of the monitor moving away from macOS. BTW, my favorite Linux machine is an about ten year old MacBook Air running Ubuntu. That slim little laptop is still amazing.

TiredOfLife3• 11 months ago

That is the monitor DHH uses with Framework laptop and Beelink miniPC.

mark_l_watson2• 11 months ago

Thanks!

dismalaf3• 11 months ago

I had to replace my full mainboard as the GPU was broken within the first two weeks, so that might be bad luck. But the quality of MacBooks is just another level. I had 3 or 4 so far since 2010, and each of them held at least 5 years. Crazy good.

Having to replace a board and only lasting 5 years is good?

I had a ThinkPad that lasted almost 10 years, then an Acer Swift which lasted 5 years and was doing great until our home burnt down in a wildfire (!!), and now I have a several years old MSI which is doing fine. Also never needed any repairs for any laptop I've ever bought...

Seeing that quote makes me think Apple quality is shit...

delduca• 11 months ago

I was thinking about going down that path. I already use Arch (btw) on my gaming desktop, and I was tempted to build another machine exclusively for Arch (btw). But given the prices, I thought it would make more sense to buy a Mac Studio, and that’s what I plan to do soon.

ritcgab• 11 months ago

The copilot key on every new Windows® laptop, though.

mattbettinson• 11 months ago

Excuse my ignorance but how does OS development even work? Being a mostly web developer, it just seems to arcane to change an OS - like, pre-application layer.

aeblyve• 11 months ago

Not unlike web development, you're working against a contract (in this case, CPU instructions/features, storage formats, bus formats) defined by some megacorporate legacy. You also have support from pieces of embedded firmware running inside storage devices or other peripherals.

The book at http://ostep.org gets into some details.

Another useful illuminator: https://gwern.net/computers

As much as possible is generally done using simulators before testing on any real hardware.

solardev5• 11 months ago

Once you're smart enough, the oscilloscope isn't that different from console.log().

mancerayder• 11 months ago

Do people have a preferred, recent Thinkpad model they know works well with Linux?

mantra2• 11 months ago

If only Adobe gave a shit about Linux.

kristianp• 11 months ago

It seems the ThinkBook 14 G7 ARP the uses chips like AMD Ryzen 7 7735HS, which have TDP of 35-54W and zen 3+ [1]. That would explain the fan noise and lack of battery life.

I'm think about going in the other direction, because my p14s (2023) screen is starting to feel too small for my old eyes and the battery life was never good. I think a Macbook Air upgraded to 32GB would provide enough speed, whilst having a better screen. There doesn't seem to be an X1-like Thinkpad that has a 15 or 16 inch screen that I can find. One problem is lenovo has so many product lines it takes in depth research to find what you're looking for. Has anyone tried newer AMD cpus in Thinkpads? My workflow is very linux oriented and my brain doesn't like the idea that I'll need to develop on mac and deploy to linux. That seems too risky to me and I don't need or want docker if I don't have to use it.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/laptop/ryzen/7000...

From M1 MacBook to Arch Linux: A month-long experiment that became permanenent

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