Convert Linux to Windows

https://philipbohun.com/blog/0007.html

by pbohun • 1 year ago

371 452 1 year ago

philipbohun.com

petepete2• 1 year ago

Sounds like someone wants Lindows/Linspire.

https://www.linspirelinux.com/

jcmfernandes• 1 year ago

I thought the same while reading it and... I felt old.

Jolter• 1 year ago

A vendor that has to write a news item on their front page that their product is not dead? Maybe not the most attractive look.

petepete2• 1 year ago

Lindows made a splash in 2001-2002 and its purpose was to bridge the gap and offer proper support for Windows applications on Linux via a 'click and run' service.

After Microsoft sued them and they changed their name, the bubble was burst and when Ubuntu appeared its niche as a beginner distro ebbed away.

I was surprised to hear it was still alive via a Michael MJD video a month or two ago.

bambax• 1 year ago

Yes, I remember this! At some point they even claimed the term "Windows" was too generic to be protected, and they wanted to use it for the project...

GoblinSlayer11• 1 year ago

Huh? Linux Mint looks more like Lindows than Linspire.

n3storm• 1 year ago

I guess you haven't used windows 11 yet, luckily.

d3Xt3r5• 1 year ago

Zorin OS supports running .exes directly (via Wine of course). https://help.zorin.com/docs/apps-games/windows-app-support/

rkagerer• 1 year ago

This is the first time I've heard of that [Ubuntu?] distro. Would be curious to hear how it's working out, from anyone using it as their daily driver, and how it compares to Mint etc. on the Linux side of things.

d3Xt3r5• 1 year ago

My mum was using it as a daily-driver for all your average user PC stuff. It was decent, easily to use and more user-friendly than Mint, IMO – until an update borked it completely, after two years of running. Unfortunately post-update-breakages is something that's typical of Ubuntu and most Ubuntu-based distros, so it's not really surprising [1]. I've since switched her to an immutable distro (Aurora [2]) and it's been rock solid.

[1] https://ounapuu.ee/posts/2025/02/05/done-with-ubuntu/ [2] https://getaurora.dev/en

devit• 1 year ago

That makes no sense: shipping all dependencies (e.g. shipping a container image) gives perfect binary compatibility on Linux, which is what flatpak/snap/appimage do.

It can also be achieved with static linking and by shipping all needed library and using a shell script loader that sets LD_LIBRARY_PATH.

Also glibc (contrary to the author's false claims) and properly designed libraries are backwards compatible, so in principle just adding the debs/rpms from an older Debian/Fedora that ships the needed libraries to the packaging repositories and running apt/dnf should work in theory, although unfortunately might not in practice due to the general incompetence of programmers and distribution maintainers.

Win32 is obviously not appropriate for GNU/Linux applications, and you also have the same dependency problem here, with the same solution (ship a whole Wine prefix, or maybe ship a bunch of DLLs).

api2• 1 year ago

That makes no sense: shipping all dependencies (e.g. shipping a container image) gives perfect binary compatibility on Linux, which is what flatpak/snap/appimage do.

True, but sad. The way to achieve compatibility on Linux is to distribute applications in the form of what are essentially tarballs of entire Linux systems. This is the "fuck it" solution.

Of course I suppose it's not unusual for Windows stuff to be statically linked or to ship every DLL with the installer "just in case." This is also a "fuck it" solution.

grandiego• 1 year ago

to distribute applications in the form of what are essentially tarballs of entire Linux systems.

No so bad when Linux ran from a floppy with 2Mb of RAM. Sadly every library just got bigger and bigger without any practical way to generate a lighter application specific version.

icedchai3• 1 year ago

You could say the same about container images for server apps. (Packaging is hard.)

Const-me7• 1 year ago

shipping all dependencies (e.g. shipping a container image) gives perfect binary compatibility on Linux

That doesn’t work for GUI programs which use a hardware 3D GPU. Linux doesn’t have a universally available GPU API: some systems have GL, some have GLES, some have Vulkan, all 3 come in multiple versions of limited compatibility, and optional features many of them are vendor specific.

In contrast, it’s impossible to run modern Windows without working Direct3D 11.0 because dwm.exe desktop compositor requires it. If a software consumes Direct3D 11.0 and doesn’t require any optional features (for example, FP64 math support in shaders is an optional feature, but sticking to the required set of features is not very limiting in practice unless you need to support very old GPUs which don’t implement feature level 11.0), will run on any modern Windows. Surprisingly, it will also run on Linux systems which support Wine: without Vulkan-capable GPU will be slow but should still work due to Lavapipe, which is a Linux equivalent of microsoft’s WARP they use on Windows computers without hardware 3D GPU.

arghwhat5• 1 year ago

Note that this also underlines that the post's premise of Windows having a simple stable ABI - win32 sure is stable, but that's not what applications are coded against anymore.

Sure, you can run a 20 year old app, but that is not the same as a current app still working in 20 years, or even 5.

the__alchemist• 1 year ago

Question, from an application developer's perspective: What is the implication in regards to cross-platform Vulkan applications? I.e., my 3D applications all use Vulkan, and they compile and just work on both Windows, and Ubuntu. Does this mean that on other or older distros, they might not work?

sleepycatgirl• 1 year ago

without vulkan-capable gpu you still get 3D acceleration via wined3d. Unless you meant, without any gpu at all :s

account4211• 1 year ago

This is FUD. There isn't a single real desktop Linux distribution without OpenGL support. The basic OpenGL API hasn't changed ever, it's just been extended. It has even more backwards compatibility than Direct3D. Sure you can deliberately build a distro with only Vulkan or GLES (a mobile API) if you want to be an ass but the same goes for Windows. Same for X11 - Xlib works everywhere even any Wayland-only distribution that gives a single crap about running binary distributed software.

Now GUI toolkits are more of an issue. That's annoying for some programs, many others do their own thing anyway.

Spivak3• 1 year ago

glibc really doesn't want to be statically linked so if you go this route your option is to ship another libc. It does work but comes with its own problems— mostly revolving around nss.

okanat11• 1 year ago

And NSS defines how usernames are matched to uids, how DNS works, how localization works and so on. If you're changing libc you need to ship an entire distro as well since it will not use the system libraries of a glibc distro correctly.

vlovich1236• 1 year ago

Also glibc (contrary to the author's false claims) and properly designed libraries are backwards compatible, so in principle just adding the debs/rpms from an older Debian/Fedora that ships the needed libraries to the packaging repositories and running apt/dnf should work in theory, although unfortunately might not in practice due to the general incompetence of programmers and distribution maintainers.

Got it. So everything is properly designed but somehow there's a lot of general incompetence preventing it from working. I'm pretty sure the principle of engineering design is to make things work in the face of incompetence by others.

And while glibc is backward compatible & that generally does work, glibc is NOT forward compatible which is a huge problem - it means that you have to build on the oldest bistro you can find so that the built binaries actually work on arbitrary machines you try to run it on. Whereas on Mac & Windows it's pretty easy to build applications on my up-to-date system targeting older variants.

skissane2• 1 year ago

And while glibc is backward compatible & that generally does work, glibc is NOT forward compatible which is a huge problem - it means that you have to build on the oldest bistro you can find so that the built binaries actually work on arbitrary machines you try to run it on.

Isn’t this easily solved by building in a container? Something a lot of people do anyway - I do it all the time because it insulates the build from changes in the underlying build agents - if the CI team decides to upgrade the build agent OS to a new release next month or migrate them to a different distro, building in a container (mostly) isolates my build job from that change, doing it directly on the agents exposes it to them

einpoklum• 1 year ago

So everything is properly designed but somehow there's a lot of general incompetence preventing it from working.

But it is working, actually:

* If you update your distro with binaries from apt, yum, zypper etc. - they work.

* If you download statically-linked binaries - they work.

* If you download Snaps/Flatpak, they work.

it means that you have to build on the oldest bistro you can find so that the built binaries actually work on arbitrary machines you try to run it on.

Only if you want to distribute a dynamically-linked binary without its dependencies. And even then - you have to build with a toolchain for that distro, not with that distro itself.

GoblinSlayer11• 1 year ago

Windows toolchain (even gnu) just provides old libraries to link with. This should work the same on linux, and AFAIK zig does just that.

mappu2• 1 year ago

I think this attitude to the Linux ABI is maybe out of date - with a 20 year old Linux binary, that's only 2005, so it will almost certainly be using glibc (no archaic libc5). Glibc has great backwards compatibility and the binary will work on any glibc distribution today as long as you have all the .so's, same as needing the .dll's on Windows.

cyberax4• 1 year ago

There are few issues:

1. GNU libc is an exception in the world of compatibility.

2. You can't just dump a bunch of GTK libraries next to the binary and expect it to work. These libraries often expect very specific file system layouts.

kccqzy• 1 year ago

That is solved by containerization (cgroups and namespaces), which is initially popularized by docker, which appeared about 12 years ago. And newer things like flatpak and snap are just bells and whistles over this.

mappu2• 1 year ago

In 2005 the hot new Windows technology was .NET Framework 1.1 or 2.0. You can't just dump Framework 1.1's libraries next to the binary and expect it to work either, it needs to be installed properly.

asddubs• 1 year ago

I still run an unmodified GTK2 app from 2012 that I just grabbed a .deb from an ancient debian version, because I don't like the GTK3 version.

GoblinSlayer11• 1 year ago

Thankfully gtk2 is now stable too.

awill• 1 year ago

because it's EOL? :)

geokon2• 1 year ago

I hit quirks with glib semi-regularly (~1/year)

For example, recently I tried to run Emacs' Appimage and it has a glib issue

https://github.com/probonopd/Emacs.AppImage/issues/22#issuec...

Narishma• 1 year ago

glibc, not glib. That's a different library.

lelandbatey2• 1 year ago

That's talking about 'glib' which is not the same as 'glibc'.

Glib is a library from the GTK project which offers utility functionality related to the GTK widget toolkit, while glibc is the GNU C Library.

Amusingly, these kinds of beyond-the-core libraries are the ones that have always caused problems for me, never actual core GNU C Library.

ur-whale• 1 year ago

Glibc has great backwards compatibility

We're clearly not living in the same universe here.

glibc backward compatibility is horrible.

Every. Single. Time. I try to use an old binary on a modern distro, it bombs, usually with some incomprehensible error message with GLIBC in all caps in it.

And these days, you can't even link glibc statically, when you try it barks at you with vehemence.

As a matter of fact, as pointed out in the article, this particular shortcoming of glibc completely negates the work done by Linus to keep userland backward compatible at all cost.

account4211• 1 year ago

[citation needed]

Please post actual issues encountered, including non-paraphrased errors instead of FUD.

And if you want to statically link your libc there is nothing forcing you to use glibc. You're only stuck with glibc (and even then you don't actually need to use any functions from it yourself) if you need dynamic linnking for e.g. OpenGL/Vulkan. Also, glibc wasn't designed for static linking even before they put in safeguards against that.

ranger_danger• 1 year ago

NOTE: I am not against Apple or Microsoft. They have amazing engineers! I don't think they're being malicious. Rather, I think the incentives for these companies are improperly aligned.

Improperly aligned incentives? Who gets to say what that is?

Is it "improper" to maximize profit per their own board's guidelines?

I have a feeling OP has some predefined notion of nobility they expect people to somehow operate under.

voidspark• 1 year ago

Yes it's a value judgement by the author. Maximizing profit by any means necessary is pathological. Many here would agree with that.

hagbard_c2• 1 year ago

Is it "improper" to maximize profit per their own board's guidelines?

From the standpoint of the end user the incentives are improperly aligned. If they had made hammers they would have included licence agreements for their use with specific types of nails and actively prevented users from using competitor's nails. They also would have made sure yesterday's hammer would not be sufficient to hammer in today's nail, they would have added camera's to observe what the user was doing so as to sell 'targeted' advertising - during which the hammer would not strike any nails but would sing like the singing sword in Who Framed Roger Rabbit - and they would have made sure that no matter how agile the user was with his hammer the thing would never be 100% reliable.

Of course hammers are far less complex than computers and operating systems. Maybe this is because they're made by tool manufacturers and not by tech companies, maybe it is because they're old tech. A modern hammer is what Ford would have produced if he had listened to his customers who asked him for a faster horse so maybe there is a whole world of construction efficiency waiting for the Henry Ford of Hammersmiths. Or, maybe - probably - sometimes it is better to get that faster horse, that titanium hammer or that free software operating system which works for you and nobody else.

cratermoon2• 1 year ago

Worth reading: Unauthorized Bread. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...

CRConrad8• 1 year ago

Improperly aligned incentives? Who gets to say what that is?

Anyone worth calling human.

Is it "improper" to maximize profit per their own board's guidelines?

If to the exclusion of all else, then yes, wildly so.

I have a feeling OP has some predefined notion of nobility they expect people to somehow operate under.

Having a set of values is what separates Man from (most of) the other animals.

HTH!

pizlonator3• 1 year ago

Seems like it would be easier to identify and fix cases of ABI compat breakage in the Linux userland than to convert Linux to Windows.

Spivak3• 1 year ago

This would be an option if the Linux userland wasn't a mish-mash of unconnected developers with their own practices and release cadence. It's why we have LTS distros where the company will put in the massive amount of work to preserve binary compatibility.

But the trade-off is that the software you have in your repos will be really old. At the end your RHEL support cycle libs will be a decade out of date.

GoblinSlayer11• 1 year ago

OpenSSL

pizlonator3• 1 year ago

What about it

olddustytrail• 1 year ago

Thesis: We should create a distro of Linux that runs Windows binaries by default via Wine.

"We should"? Do you mean me? I have a ton of my own projects I'm busy with.

Why didn't you say "I should create..."? There's nothing stopping you implementing this if you think it's a good idea. Do the work yourself.

stevage• 1 year ago

That is the weirdest thing to take exception to.

delusional• 1 year ago

We also already have a simple way to run Windows applications, Wine.

Are you high? There is nothing simple about Wine. It's at once a kludgy mess and a technical masterpiece, what it isn't is simple.

hagbard_c2• 1 year ago

Fairly simple for the end user, not simple in its implementation.

keyringlight• 1 year ago

Like a lot of things in any OS it depends how far off the beaten track you go. I think there's a lot of gaming newcomers to linux where their main exposure for wine is via steam, which generally wraps things up for them and hides the details behind their launcher. If you need to go diving into the details for compatibility or you'd like to separate things out with prefixes then it's definitely much less polished and elegant, but I'd argue you could say the same thing about windows for compatibility with some old games or sites like PCGamingWiki.com would be a lot smaller as the combinations of windows (or DOS)+drivers+hardware over the years hasn't resulted in perfect consistent compatibility.

trelane7• 1 year ago

Depends. Proton and CrossOver are dead easy, especially for the supported apps.

3np3• 1 year ago

Easy to use? Sure. Simple? No way.

subjectsigma• 1 year ago

The article's main premise isn't bad, but it's full of weird technical inaccuracies.

At certain points he talks about syscalls, libc (I'm assuming glibc), PE vs. ELF, and an 'ABI'. Those are all different things, and IIUC all are fairly stable on Linux, what isn't stable is userspace libraries such as GTK and QT. So, what are we talking about?

There's also statements like this, which, I'm not a kernel developer but they sound a little to good to be true:

A small modification to the "exec" family of system calls to dispatch on executble type would allow any Linux application to fork an exec a Windows application with no effort.

He goes on to talk about Gatekeeper (which you can disable), Recall (which is disabled by default), and signing in with a Microsoft account (which can be easily bypassed, though he linked an article saying they might remove it). He also talks about "scanning your computer for illegal files", I don't know what this is referring to, but the only thing I could find on Google was Apple's iCloud CSAM scanning thing. That's not on your computer, and it got so much backlash that it was cancelled.

There's plenty of stuff to criticize about these companies and their services without being dramatic, and the idea of Linux having more compatibility with Win32 via Wine isn't bad.

skissane2• 1 year ago

> There's also statements like this, which, I'm not a kernel developer but they sound a little to good to be true:
A small modification to the "exec" family of system calls to dispatch on executble type would allow any Linux application to fork an exec a Windows application with no effort.

That isn't "too good to be true", it's so good it is false – no kernel modification is required because the Linux kernel already supports this via binfmt_misc. You just need to configure it. And depending on how you installed Wine, you may find it has even already been configured for you.

nneonneo• 1 year ago

FYI: a kernel patch to run exes isn’t needed. binfmt_misc can handle this, and wine-binfmt already exists to automatically run PE files through Wine.

ajross2• 1 year ago

So... this already exists. Valve already essentially sells this as a product. Folks know that, right? The Steam Deck is a linux box running wine executables as the native app environment. The fact that the money apps are all "games" doesn't change the technology.

Spivak3• 1 year ago

How they do it is by shipping a franken-ubuntu14 as the "steam runtime" for native Linux games. Not a terrible solution but not exactly ideal for general purpose software where games mostly keep to themselves. Their work on Proton is amazing though.

andrewclunn• 1 year ago

Wait, isn't Steam OS Arch based now?

win32lover4• 1 year ago

Steam OS is clearly not what the blog is proposing, I can't just pop over the desktop mode and install Firefox via a MSI.

ajross2• 1 year ago

No[1], but you can launch a windows executable natively, link against DLLs in a compatible way, thunk between 32 and 64 bit as needed, access the Linux filesystem, network and IPC environment using native APIs, integrate with things like .NET and msvc runtimes, access native-speed DirectX emulation, etc...

Yes, you'd have to buff and polish it. But "paint some chrome on it" is hardly much of a blog post.

[1] Actually, are you sure the answer is "no" here? I wouldn't be at all shocked if some enterprising geek had source on github implementing a MSI extractor and installer

lucasoshiro• 1 year ago

Imagine we made a new Linux distro. This distro would provide a desktop environment that looks close enough to Windows that a Windows user could use it without training. You could install and run Windows applications exactly as you do on Windows; no extra work needed.

Why not use ReactOS?

linguae• 1 year ago

Linux has far greater hardware support than ReactOS does.

okanat11• 1 year ago

Maybe we should fund ReactOS for end-user applications. Win32 is well established and isn't going anywhere. So why not take advantage of Microsoft's API design effort

Dwedit• 1 year ago

ReactOS is too buggy to be used as a daily driver for your operating system, but it's awesome as Windows Kernel reference code. You want to know what a Kernel-mode function does? Ether read the documentation, or look at what ReactOS does. (Yes, leaked Windows code exists too, and it's even on freakin Microsoft-owned-Github of all places, but you can't legally look at that stuff!)

mdaniel3• 1 year ago

but you can't legally look at that stuff!

Hi, it's me, Mr Hair Splitting: to the best of my knowledge it's not illegal to read the source, but it would be illegal to use the source in your own application because you didn't author it or have a license to it

That's actually why the Wine and ReactOS folks want to disqualify folks who have read the source for fear they would inadvertently "borrow" implementation ideas, versus being able to explain to a judge how they, themselves, came up with the implementation. The key point is that Wine and ReactOS merely disqualify someone, not imprison or fine them

dartharva5• 1 year ago

Because ReactOS doesn't work?

tombert4• 1 year ago

I played with ReactOS a few months ago in a virtual machine, and even in that relatively controlled environment it still crashed a lot.

I’ve been hoping that ReactOS would be the thing that truly murdered Microsoft Windows, but that really hasn’t happened; it seems like that’s happening via combination of a lot of applications moving to the browser and compatibility layers like Wine and Proton.

Linux has pretty good driver support nowadays, and outside of drivers Wine will have as good or better support for applications, so I am not completely sure what that says about the future of ReactOS.

iamnotarobotman2• 1 year ago

Is that even stable to use yet? Last time I used ReactOS, it was very unstable to use as a daily driver.

Some of the basic apps like Jetbrains it could barely run it. At best it was crashing frequently for me.

coderenegade6• 1 year ago

I don't think a new distro is needed. Most commonly used windows apps can be made to work through wine, but the hacks used to make one app work can break others and vice versa. Similarly, everyone needs to play around with settings individually to get things to work. What works on one person's machine might not work on another's, because there's no consistency in, effectively, configuration.

The simplest solution, to me, is to just distribute containers (or some other sandbox) with wine in it, and the necessary shenanigans to get the windows program (just the one) working in the container, and just distribute that. Everyone gets the same artifact, and it always works. No more dicking around with wine settings, because it's baked in for whatever the software is.

Yes, this is tremendously space inefficient, so the next step would be a way of slimming wine down for container usage.

The only real barrier to this system is licensing and software anti patterns. You might have to do some dark magic to install the software in the container in the first place.

nine_k2• 1 year ago

Flatpak could work better because it already knows how to factor out common parts, so it could bring in only one (or just few) version of Wine.

OsrsNeedsf2P• 1 year ago

Unfortunately Flathub (the biggest Flatpak repository) doesn't allow Windows apps, despite it working on a technical level

immibis2• 1 year ago

If you change a lot of things about a Linux system, then you're making a new distro.

Half of this incompatibility is because Linux is flexible, anyway. My system is different from your system, and did anyone test on both? If you want a more stable ABI then you need a more stable system.

coderenegade6• 1 year ago

You wouldn't have to change anything about the underlying system, which is the point. Containers work the same regardless of the underlying system, so they get around the various differences in everyone's individual machine. I use identical containers routinely on Fedora and Ubuntu systems at home without any issue, and I produce containers for RHEL and various other systems at work. Half the point of containers is eliminating the variability between dev systems and deployment.

Rather than everyone having to get the software working on their machine, you would get it working once in the container, and then just distribute that.

trelane7• 1 year ago

The concept of containers for Windows applications running in WINE is called "bottles."

https://support.codeweavers.com/en_US/2-getting-started/2-in...

I believe it started with Cedega, but I could be wrong. That's where I first recall encountering it.

coderenegade6• 1 year ago

TIL. I'm gonna check this out. It's good to see that people are already working on this, because it's one of those things that, to me, just makes a lot of sense. You'd think that with the all of the layers of abstraction we have nowadays, it should be possible to run software on any underlying system in an ergonomic fashion, even if it's not necessarily efficient.

Cyphase• 1 year ago

https://usebottles.com/

pbohun2• 1 year ago

I really like the idea of bottles. I wish there was a way to bundle that up into a distro and make it invisible to the user so I could setup my friends and family with it.

win32lover4• 1 year ago

At this point nobody is going to learn a new system. People already know how to write and package exes which is the whole point.

but the hacks used to make one app work can break others and vice versa

I think a lot of these problems could be avoided with a singular OS with the sole goal to support windows exes.

umanwizard• 1 year ago

That exists, it’s called SteamOS.

coderenegade6• 1 year ago

It's possible to use docker as a package manager. I worked jobs where did exactly that, because we needed to compile certain dependencies for our application, and it streamlined the whole process.

There's zero reason you couldn't create a small abstraction layer around docker so you can install "executables" that are really just launching within a container. I mean, isn't that the whole idea behind flatpak, snaps, and appimages?

The point is to leverage modern abstraction techniques so that people don't need to learn a new system.

LeFantome3• 1 year ago

You could distribute Wine as a Flatpak platform. Flatpaks are already containers that run the same on all distros. Making a Win32 base that works in this same way using the same tooling would not be difficult.

notpushkin• 1 year ago

There was Winepak (abandoned, sadly): https://winepak.github.io/

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

I don't think a new distro is needed. Most commonly used windows apps can be made to work through wine

I think the idea is to provide a seamless Windows like experience so the user works exact how he expects to work under Windows. Without having to fiddle, modify configurations, wrestle with different settings. Just click and run.

coderenegade6• 1 year ago

Yes, which is what I mentioned in the rest of the post. You could distribute a container that has wine in it, with just the configuration necessary to get the software working in the container. It would be straightforward to write a thin abstraction layer that pulls the container (installation) and gives you an executable that you can double click on and launch.

An end user wouldn't need to modify configs or wrestle settings, because that's already done for you upstream. You just get an artifact that you can click and run. From the other posts, Proton and Steam Deck already do something similar, and this is also conceptually similar to the way AppImages, Flatpaks etc. work.

DrillShopper• 1 year ago

This is how Proton from Steam works

mrbluecoat2• 1 year ago

The Linux Environment is Unstable

How many missiles do you know that run Windows?

okanat11• 1 year ago

How many do you know running Linux? Most of them are either specialized bare-metal OS and the rest is VxWorks.

mrbluecoat2• 1 year ago

https://search.brave.com/search?q=missiles+running+Linux

win32lover4• 1 year ago

I'm not sure why there are so many naysayers. I've been having the same thought ever since the initial release of the steam deck and think it's a great idea. In my vision no trace of Linux is discoverable by the user.

gmuslera• 1 year ago

He is missing the point. Flatpak/Snap are not just an alternative way to ship binaries. They are way to isolate applications and what they can do. Landscape has moved from protecting the system or an user from another to protect the same user applications and their data from each other, specially for desktop environments. That is not even in the map for Windows, its security model and its applications. It is a big jump backwards.

aaomidi• 1 year ago

Windows does a lot of sandboxing in this space though what do you mean?

mjevans• 1 year ago

Every Application should be it's own 'user' (sub user) while the login-user / manager should be the group leader of all those 'sub users' / 'agents'.

A change in security model from the 1970s/1980s might help with security and isolation. However that same security would also generally be a pain without really smooth management in the desktop environment / shell.

JanisErdmanis• 1 year ago

The Windows MSIX also does sandboxing.

nxobject• 1 year ago

A reverse OS X/Classic transition, if you will…

xtracto• 1 year ago

I want the opposite: id like a way to run the windows kernel, drivers and most low level OS stuff by windows, but with a Linux user Interface: Cinammon, apt and all the debian stuff.

I run Mint as my main OS, but hardware compatibility is still a headache in Linux for me.

trelane7• 1 year ago

If you're not buying a laptop with Linux preinstalled and supported by the hardware vendor, you're going to have a hard time.

You might get lucky, but it sounds like you've not been lucky.

tombert4• 1 year ago

I’ve never bought one of the dedicated Linux laptops, but I’ve had pretty good luck with AMD stuff.

My current laptop, Thinkpad P16s AMD Gen 2, was pretty straightforward to get working with NixOS. No special drivers, and everything, including WiFi and function buttons on the keyboard, worked fine without any kind of special concessions.

This was also the case for my last non-Mac, from 2017-2020, I got Ubuntu installed on there without many headaches, and it wasn’t a specific Linux laptop, though again it was AMD.

throwaway484765• 1 year ago

What hardware isn't compatible?

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

Doesn't WSL do that?

magicalhippo• 1 year ago

WSL 1 did, WSL 2 runs in a VM.

p_ing4• 1 year ago

You can resurrect SFU and build a replacement GUI for Explorer. You can't get rid of Win32, but you can cover up most of it. Implementing a Personality would be the Windows-way of doing this as it is designed for just what you ask.

adamtaylor_13• 1 year ago

People always talk about this “I can run a 20 year .exe file” situation but when I tell you that I have never, in 30+ years, EVER had a need to run a 20+ year executable, it just makes me go… yeah, and?

Sure I believe backwards compatibility is a nice to have feature, but I have never, nor do I think I will ever, have a need to run 20-year-old software.

sevensor• 1 year ago

My experience is that a 20 year old exe file has a greater chance of running in wine than it would in windows, and a 20 year old Linux executable is going to fail because the shared libraries it depends on are unobtainable

o11c• 1 year ago

In my experience:

20-year-old exe files can fail on both Windows and WINE if they touch something relatively obscure. It's easier to throw files at the problem under WINE though (you can just throw away the prefix if you break something). The single biggest mistake WINE makes is defaulting to a single shared prefix (and the second sin is similar - trying to integrate folders and menus naively).

20-year-old dynamic binaries on Linux can almost always work today; snapshot.debian.org has all the old libraries you'll ever need. The potential exception is if they touch something hardware-ish or that needs exclusive access, but this is still better than the situation on Windows.

20-year-old static binaries on Linux will fail surprisingly often, since there have been changes in filesystem and file layout.

cratermoon2• 1 year ago

I use Nikon Scan 4.0.0. It was released in either 2008 or 2004.

GoblinSlayer11• 1 year ago

You can have an Electron app with the same features, but an older program likely can do it without being Electron or webapp.

DrFalkyn3• 1 year ago

Games

stevekemp• 1 year ago

I've got a terminal open on my desktop, running a copy of ZORK from 1983, which is 42 years old.

Yes there are modern ports, and newer versions, but these kind of retro games, and utilities, are used by many.

timeon• 1 year ago

Three days early?

Perenti• 1 year ago

Both Corel and Lindows tried this 25 years ago. People did not like it.

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

I did like them both. They felt much more polished that other Linux distros at that time.

int_19h11• 1 year ago

Wine was in a much worse shape back then.

pdonis5• 1 year ago

To the extent binary distribution is "unstable" on Linux, it's because users aren't expected to just download random binaries from wherever, as is normal on Windows (and Mac, for that matter). Users are expected to either obtain binaries from their distro, or compile them from source. In either case, all of the issues about binary distribution being "unstable" are invisible to users. Which is the point. People who want the broken Windows software model can just..run Windows. The last thing any sane Linux user wants is to make Linux into Windows. I run Linux to avoid Windows.

trelane7• 1 year ago

There's also flatpak and friends

johnea2• 1 year ago

Thank you very much! I was about to post almost the same thing, so I'll reply to your post instead (and upvote):

It's pretty funny to read a critisism of linux s/w distribution along the lines of the dificulty of distributing binaries.

This is one of the biggest security vulnerabilities of windows. 3rd parties distributing binary executables.

At least in a typical linux distro the binary is built by the distributing org, with some review of where the source comes from.

Downloading a windows app from the internet one has no idea what source is included in that binary.

I'm also not a fan of non-distro based systems such as flatpack. Again, I would prefer my binaries built by the distribution, or if need be, locally.

nice_byte2• 1 year ago

explain to me why the HELL should i be limited to only running binaries that my distro vendor has deigned to provide, or jump through endless hoops to obtain and build source code (which by the way might not even be obtainable OR buildable). if i have a binary from 5, 10, 15 years ago i should just be able to fucking run it on my fucking computer.

dartharva5• 1 year ago

At least in a typical linux distro the binary is built by the distributing org, with some review of where the source comes from.

This "feature" falls apart for nonfree software, which most commercial apps are. You can use Spotify and Steam's PPA but will similarly have no idea what source was included in them.

int_19h11• 1 year ago

At least in a typical linux distro the binary is built by the distributing org

... which often patches upstream code in ways that upstream neither approves of nor wants to support. And then, when things break, the user can't go upstream, and the distro package maintainers simply don't have enough time to deal with all the user reports.

scheeseman4863• 1 year ago

There are a lot of reasons to avoid Windows outside of package/software management.

Linux has appimage, it's already capable of running "loose" native executables like Windows does. Flatpak, Snap and Docker all break the "distro repository or compile from source" model. The primary method of playing video games is installing Steam and running Windows software inside a container. This purist vision you have of Linux doesn't exist.

pdonis5• 1 year ago

This purist vision you have of Linux doesn't exist.

It does on my computer, and I suspect on a lot of Linux users' computers.

vagab0nd• 1 year ago

Exactly this. In fact, what's a distro if not basically a well-maintained app directory?

dartharva5• 1 year ago

Speak for yourself. I have been using Linux for a decade and would want nothing more if standalone application setups like those in Windows became the norm of software distribution.

Centralized package management is a curse. Apps should be responsible for their own updates, not the OS.

pdonis5• 1 year ago

Apps should be responsible for their own updates, not the OS.

Distros are not quite "the OS". You don't need a distro to run Linux.

The role distros play as far as Linux applications are concerned is more like an app store in the Windows (or Mac) world. Of course Apple has locked down their smartphones that way basically since their inception, and their desktop OS has been becoming more and more like that. So has Windows.

HappMacDonald• 1 year ago

OTOH I view application installation as a separate skill from $THING_THIS_APP_DOES.

So I would rather the app authors just focus on perfecting their apps, while said apps can then be packaged and distributed in bulk by different sets of people trained to handle those challenges.

What I very certainly do NOT want is:

* Apps automatically checking for updates on startup — since they can't check while they are off — leading to needlessly leaked data crossing the network about exactly when I'm starting up exactly which apps (since they dial home to predictable locations regardless of TLS usage)

* Apps constantly filling systray with their own bespoke updaters (and "accelerators" which just means the app is running 24/7 but minimized to tray ;P )

* App launches updater, updater window says "can't update because app is running". Close app, wait for update, now I have to go hunt down the document I had originally opened the app with. Next time an app launches an updater, I leave it on its splash screen and go to close the app.. naturally that also closes the updater since this time around the one is a sub-process of the other. (I recall earlier versions of Wireshark causing me much grief on these fronts, for example)

* More diverse attack surface area for hackers to infect my PC: instead of trying to juke a distro who has at least some experience and vested interest in defending against poisoning, just juke any single software author less specialized in distribution security and take over their distribution channel instead.

ndiddy• 1 year ago

Great news, there's a distro called Slackware that eschews centralized package management (besides optionally delivering updates for preinstalled packages). It's been around for ~20 years before you started using Linux. If you'd like to rid yourself of the curse of centralized package management in favor of running "./configure && make && sudo make install" like a real man, you should give it a try.

graemep4• 1 year ago

Given that every OS is heading towards centralised application updates. Windows Store does that AFAIK. I am guessing MacOS's store does too. The major mobile OSes and its the only way almost all users install anything.

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

People who want the broken Windows software model can just..run Windows

That's what billions of people do. :)

magackame• 1 year ago

What's up with all this "My 20 year old software still works!!!". Who actually runs unmaintained abandonware? I would rather prefer OS devs not wasting time maintaining legacy cruft and evolve with the times.

p_ing4• 1 year ago

I play Silent Hunter III which was released in 2005. Also Half-Life sometimes. Everything older is going to be console games.

Businesses run the old stuff.

Saris• 1 year ago

Lots of embedded stuff will have control software that's very old.

zdragnar• 1 year ago

Is this sarcasm? Some of my favorite games are 20 years old. Windows is popular in a lot of manufacturing spaces because the equipment software doesn't get updated and only connects to old programs over 16 bit serial ports.

There's a whole world out there of legacy software that is happily churning along, and doesn't need to be updated.

tormeh2• 1 year ago

Okay, but then you could also keep it running on an old OS. Fork out the money for a RHEL license, and just never upgrade.

tobinfekkes• 1 year ago

I still play Total Annihilation, from 1997.

Great game.

tormeh2• 1 year ago

People object to this approach, but Apple does this, and they seem to be doing fine.

timewizard2• 1 year ago

Who actually runs unmaintained abandonware?

Personal computers are for persons. They don't view their use of their own systems through the lens of an imputed purity test.

I would rather prefer OS devs not wasting time maintaining legacy cruft and evolve with the times.

Then don't support those who do with your dollars. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the market shows it disagrees with you.

flohofwoe3• 1 year ago

Sid Meier's Railroad Tycoon 2 is still the best railroad game and runs great on modern Windows versions, it's now nearly 30 years old:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/7620/Railroad_Tycoon_II_P...

I return to that game for a few quick sessions every couple of months.

II2II• 1 year ago

Ask IBM how well that idea worked.

I think it's fair to say that OS/2 had better Windows compatibility (for it's era) than Wine offers (in this era). The problem was that Microsoft introduced breaking changes with the introduction of Windows 95. While old Windows applications would continue to run under OS/2, IBM felt that it would take too much effort to introduce a compatability layer for Windows 95. If I recall correctly, it involved limitations with how OS/2 handled memory.

Besides, binary compatibity has never really been a big thing in Linux since the majority of software used is open source. It is expected to compile and link against newer libraries, but there is no real incentive for existing binaries to remain compatible. And if the software doesn't compile against newer versions of libraries, well, Windows has similar issues.

bitmasher92• 1 year ago

A windows95 compatibility layer would have been feasible if OS/2 had more sales volume.

The latest multi-platform packaging systems like Nix or Flatpak have largely solved the binary compatibility problem but providing some guarantees of library versions. This approach makes more sense in modern contexts with cheap storage and fast bandwidth.

cyp0633• 1 year ago

I still can't get MS Office 365 working on Linux over Wine, while no alternatives make me comfortable. Comparing Linux and Win32 ABI on Linux is nonsense without talking about Wine compatibility.

d3Xt3r5• 1 year ago

Have you checked out OnlyOffice recently? If so, I'm curious what are the deal-breaking features you find that it lacks compared to M365.

tuananh• 1 year ago

why am i getting the vibe that onlyoffice is closed-source.

it's actually open https://github.com/ONLYOFFICE

bentt2• 1 year ago

This is a wonderful idea and could succeed if the creator could rally the right devs and users. What it really needs is Ubuntu tier branding and UX work. This has been a rarity in the Linux desktop space.

I am hopeful SteamOS will bring us something very similar.

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

What it really needs is Ubuntu tier branding and UX work.

That means somebody paying for the work. Designers and UX specialists don't care about free work like many programmers do.

bentt2• 1 year ago

Yeah Blender might be a good model here.

James_K7• 1 year ago

Surely one could design a library in Linux which makes syscalls and dynamically link to it.

Levitating3• 1 year ago

The suckless project gave us stali linux, a statically compiled linux distribution.

Doesn't static compilation solve quite a few of the problems states here?

https://sta.li/

samtheprogram• 1 year ago

Yes. It’s the same reason AppImage could work — if the licensing allows for the all libraries to be included in the image, because the Linux syscall interface is generally stable.

“We do not break userspace”

Levitating3• 1 year ago

AppImages have a few problems. Ever seen how much dependencies you need installed to execute an AppImage?

You also need to be in an environment where you can create FUSE filesystems. And iirc the reference implementation requires the deprecates fuse2 library to work.

Snaps, Flatpaks, AppImages and static linking are all solutions to a real problem. But I don't think AppImages are an especially good solution.

I talked a bit with Richard Brown about supporting AppImages in Aeon, the OpenSUSE immutable distro. But he believed the base system would need far too much dependencies specifically to support the AppImage runtime including deprecated fuse2 support.

kazinator• 1 year ago

I can pull down a 20 year old exe and still run it today on Windows.

Sure, but for how much longer will Microsoft allow this unsigned ancient binary?

Using Linux for runing Windows programs is going to be desperately needed as Microsoft enshittifies Windows going forward.

marticode• 1 year ago

I really don't see Microsoft blocking unsigned exe. There's just too much old Windows/DOS software out there still in use, sometimes running critical infrastructure.

SunlitCat• 1 year ago

Like someone already said somewhere, it will come in steps.

Windows S Mode was already a test.

The nagging, warning and outright "blocking" (while hiding the "run anyway" button under "more info") is the first step. This already is a warning to software vendors that something will come.

The next step will be blocking unsigned exes on Home Editions (not on Pro or Enterprise), so that software vendors and most of places depending on unsigned old software can move on to signed software.

Then Home and Pro Editions of windows wont be able to run unsigned software anymore and if you need unsigned software to run you'll have to use an Enterprise Edition.

The last step would be no windows can run unsigned software anymore and if you need unsigned software running, you'll need to run that one on an Azure instance of Windows which can still run unsigned software or (if you can't / don't want to run your software in the cloud) you will have to contact Microsoft for a special Windows version, costing lots of money. But if your business depends on that one single unsigned exe file, you might be ready to pay for that one.

James_K7• 1 year ago

Java already solved this problem, for the most part. This whole ABI nonsense really grinds my gears. It's essentially just a result of the silly decision to compile software into dubious blobs and ship those to users. You could get rid of an awful lot of malware and massively simplify software distribution if you were to distribute a platform agnostic intermediary representation of source code that preserves enough semantic meaning to eliminate ABI issues, then leaves the last step of compilation to the operating system. Shipping binary files is just plain bad in every way.

robocat• 1 year ago

dubious blobs

I think you are just suggesting to replace binary blobs with other binary blobs e.g. CLR/.NET assemblies/executables or WebAssembly files.

Or do it the JavaScript way: distribute compressed minified (kinda compiled) source code and the runtime JIT compiles it at runtime (e.g. V8 engine Turbofan compiler).

James_K7• 1 year ago

I'm trying to replace platform dependant and easily breakable binary files with platform independent and change resistant files. Yes, those files are still in binary, but this is true of all files on a computer. What's useful about these new formats is that they retain a greater degree of information about the source code.

wyldfire• 1 year ago

Shipping binary files is just plain bad in every way.

Aren't .class and .jar files "binaries"?

Java already solved this problem, for the most part

Maybe, just maybe, there are some drawbacks that mean that in fact it's not solved. Otherwise perhaps Java would've completely obsoleted C, C++. Some of us design applications which can't tolerate the worst case GC pauses, for example. Some of us design applications which we can't afford to spend extra time heap-allocating nearly everything.

xxs3• 1 year ago

Aren't .class and .jar files "binaries"?

Not at all. jar is just a zip with a different extension +some metadata in META-INF (including dependencies). class are compiled java files but they do contain all kinds of metadata, including variable names and debug info (if you choose to retain it). they contain all methods and fields with their original names (along with annotations), so the reflection APIs work. Decompiling a class file is trivial to a point the original line numbers can be restored.

Otherwise perhaps Java would've completely obsoleted C

Java does require a managed runtime written mostly in C/C++.

Some of us design applications which can't tolerate the worst case GC pauses

The current breed or low latency GCs w/o a stop-the-world phase should suffices for a large set of applications.

we can't afford to spend extra time heap-allocating nearly everything.

That has not been an issue for quite some time, heap allocation can be elided, and under normal condition is just a pointer bump. Per thread private allocation is by far the most common case - the garbage collection of non old-gen referenced objects is totally trivial too (i.e. memset). Even shared (cross thread/area) allocation is a CAS'd bump in most cases. Note: copy/generational garbage collectors copy objects that are referenced by non-young-gen ones to another area, then zero the original area.

With that being said - Java (and managed languages) are no panacea.

James_K7• 1 year ago

Some of us design applications which can't tolerate the worst case GC pauses, for example

First of all, I should like to point out that such people are overwhelmingly deluded and come to this belief without ever actually having tested the hypothesis. But at any rate, the idea of a JAR file doesn't require garbage collection. We can already see this with things such as Wasm, though it doesn't quite achieve what I would want.

nice_byte2• 1 year ago

java classes have "abi". any binary representation of executable code that is supposed to be interacted with by other code necessarily defines an application BINARY interface.

xxs3• 1 year ago

The point was that the "abi" is platform independent (and has very late bindings)

mqus• 1 year ago

You mean ABI issues like not being able to run a java 11 jar on a java 8 runtime?

James_K7• 1 year ago

No, I mean ABI issues like not being able to change the order of fields in a struct.

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

Why Libre Office takes much more time to start than MS Office? Why does it feel sluggish?

At least you didn't propose to write everything in Javascript.

James_K7• 1 year ago

While the Java implementation is suboptimal, there is really no need for it to be that way. I think the ideal way to go about it would be to run the compiler optimisations and whatnot then generate something semantically similar to C89 as output. Then you invoke a simple compiler with few optimisations on the target machine the first time the program is run, and cache the results somewhere. On all subsequent runs, you've got something which can actually run faster than pre-compiled C code because the compiler doesn't need to preserve the ABI so can do stuff like inlining dynamic library calls.

shmerl• 1 year ago

By the way, Wine is more stable than Windows itself in supporting older Windows ABIs.

Someone should develop an analog for Linux itself. I.e. support for older / historic ABIs that would be translated into whatever modern Linux has.

Some isolated example of that is SDL 1.x translated to SDL 2.

Wine itself already exists, you don't need to develop any new distro for running Windows programs on Linux. Just improve Wine if anything is missing.

jillesvangurp• 1 year ago

Exactly, wine is all that's needed here for windows stuff. And we have snap, flatpak, docker, and a few other things for Linux stuff.

We'll probably get a bit of irony in a few years when somebody at MS realizes that they can just use wine on top of their Linux emulation layer to run any old MS legacy software from the past three decades+ and then cleans up the rest of windows to not have any support for legacy APIs. Because having that is redundant. Emulators are great. There's no need to run ancient software natively.

alphazard• 1 year ago

While the Linux syscalls themselves are very stable and reliable, the c library on top of them is not.

Maybe just don't use that library then? Or don't do that ridiculous thing where you fumble around at runtime desperately looking for executable pages that should just be included in your binary.

squiggleblaz3• 1 year ago

It's not "some c library on top of them", it's glibc. You can use another libc, but that means you're going to be incompatible with the distro expectations in terms of configuration, because that's handled by glibc, so you just push off the instability to a different part of your system.

notfed• 1 year ago

Thesis: We should create a distro of Linux that runs Windows binaries by default via Wine.

On Debian you're one package away:

    sudo apt install wine-binfmt

Otherwise you're still pretty close:

    echo 'none /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc binfmt_misc defaults 0 0' >> /etc/fstab
    mount -a
    echo ':DOSWin:M::MZ::/usr/bin/wine:' > /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/register

pbohun2• 1 year ago

This is great! Someone else mentioned binfmt_misc. I didn't know about that.

csdvrx11• 1 year ago

The next step is to isolate the Windows applications: you could use different WINEPREFIX, but I think the better way is to do it like android: one "user" per application.

It's not just to prevent applications to read other applications files, but also to firewall each application individually

For example, if you don't want the application you've mapped to user id 1001 to have any networking, use iptables with '-m owner --uid-owner 1001 -j DROP'

I moved from Windows to Linux a few years ago, I have a few Windows apps I still love a lot (mostly Word and Excel) and thanks to wine I will always be able to use them.

They are also extremely fast: cold starting Word (or Excel) on my laptop takes less than a second, and use far less RAM

Personally, I'd rather purchase a few shrink wrapped old versions of Office from ebay than bother with LibreOffice, Abiword or the online version of Office.

EDIT: I can't find the old recording I made showing how fast it was, but here's what it looks like on my hypland desktop: you can see in btop it doesn't take much resources https://www.reddit.com/r/unixporn/comments/11w3zzj/hyprland_...

GoblinSlayer11• 1 year ago

Is it just me or wine needs a bit more polish? Dialogs and menus are rendered with some weird microscopic font. GDI text rendering seemingly doesn't use font fallbacks, so even something like Scintilla or ebook reader don't quite work under wine.

acka• 1 year ago

Many commonly used Windows fonts are licensed under proprietary terms, preventing their inclusion with Wine.

Winetricks[1] can be used to acquire and install a set of default fonts directly from Microsoft.

Furthermore, Windows font fallback differs substantially from that of Linux and similar systems, which generally utilize Fontconfig and FreeType with font relationships defined in configuration files. In contrast, Windows (and consequently Wine) employs a font linking mechanism[2]. Windows handles font linking natively, whereas Wine requires manual registry configuration[3].

[1] https://github.com/Winetricks/winetricks

[2] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/globalization/fonts-layout...

[3] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29028964/font-recognitio...

csdvrx11• 1 year ago

Is it just me or wine needs a bit more polish? Dialogs and menus are rendered with some weird microscopic font.

It's just you. I set up the DPI and high res option to run old Office apps, and they have very nice fonts both on my 2k laptop 4k screen.

Try `xprop -root -f _XWAYLAND_GLOBAL_OUTPUT_SCALE 32c -set _XWAYLAND_GLOBAL_OUTPUT_SCALE 2`

panzi3• 1 year ago

Yeah, that has been the default for a lot of Linux distributions for quite some time now (if you install wine).

blibble• 1 year ago

not sure I want my parents to be able to double click Windows binaries and have them execute with their privs

nurettin• 1 year ago

Try doing the same with a Linux binary that's just a year old.

I do that all the time. Just link to a static glibc or musl.

panzi3• 1 year ago

Yeah, just my thought. Instead of all the effort and overhead and awful API of Win32 just statically link musl. Still, there are of course downsides and limitations to either approach.

amavect2• 1 year ago

I really want to statically link OpenGL and Vulkan for exactly this purpose, but neither use a wire protocol (unlike X11 or Wayland). The whole "loading library" scheme feels like hazing for any beginner graphics programmer on top of the already complex graphics APIs.

DrFalkyn3• 1 year ago

I know at least for OpenGL, not all graphics cards/drivers would implement the entire featureset. So there was a reasonable justification for the dynamic linking and bringing in functions one by one.

caspper69• 1 year ago

I have points to burn, so I'll post, because I know this will scratch some folks the wrong way- apologies in advance.

I use Windows. In fact, I like Windows. I know lots of (ok, more than 5) greybeards who feel exactly the same way. I don't want Linux to be Windows, but I also don't want Linux on my personal desktop either.

I have a Mac Mini M1 on my desk, and I use that for the things it's good for, mainly videoconferencing. It's also my secondary Adobe Creative Suite machine.

On my Win11 desktop, I have WSL2 with Ubuntu 24.04 for the things it is good for- currently that's Python, SageMath, CUDA, and ffmpeg. For my Unix fix, I use Git Bash (MSYS2) for my "common, everyday Unix-isms" on Windows.

I also use PowerShell and Windows Scripting on my box when I need to.

Why? Well, firstly, it's easy and I've got stuff to do. Secondly, cost is not really an issue- I bought my Windows Pro license back with Win7, and it was about $180. That was maybe 15 years ago. They have graciously upgraded me at every step- Win7 -> Win10 -> Win11, all at no cost. Even if I had had to buy it, my Taco Bell tab is higher in any given month than a Windows license (love that inflation).

Why else? Everything works. I get no annoying popups, and I really no longer sweat garbage living on my drive, because that ship has sailed; wanna waste 50GB? Sure, go ahead.

But the most important reason? My hardware is supported. My monitors look great; printers, scanners, mice and USB drives & keys all work. In fact, >90% of the time, everything just works. Further, I can share effortlessly with my Mac, all my Linux servers speak SMB (CIFS), Wireshark works, and my programs are all supported including most open source software. And I do run apps that are 20+ years old from time to time.

Truth be told, I have tried the dance of daily driving Linux, and it's a laundry list of explanations to others why my stuff is different or deficient in some way. The kicker is that my clients don't care about purity or coolness factors.

Linux has its place. But please don't put in on my main machine, and please don't give it to my family members. They're only being nice by living with a sub-par desktop experience. It will always take a herculean effort to stay on par with Windows or MacOS, and no one really wants to put their money where their mouth is.

Please don't misunderstand. I admire and respect authors of open source software, and my servers thank them. But being a contrarian and dogfooding what KDE and GNOME put out, fighting with Nvidia and AMD, dealing with constant driver interface changes, and not having proper commercial software support is not my idea of fun. It was 30 years ago. Today? I'd rather hang with my daughter or write some code.

These distros have had 35 years. I don't know what else to say.

LASR• 1 year ago

TLDR: I’ve got stuff to do.

I feel exactly the same way. I recently bought my father-in-law an M4 iMac which he thought was a disproportionately nice gift for no apparent reason.

Oh there are some very compelling reasons for it. My tech support load went way down and he’s super happy. Win-win.

d3Xt3r5• 1 year ago

sub-par desktop experience.

I strongly disagree. Linux (KDE) is a far superior desktop experience these days, compared to Windows 11. Have you even seen the new Win11 taskbar and the shitty Start Menu - they ruined something which they perfected in Win7. The overall UX has taken a deep dive - like with the unwanted removal of classic Control Panel applets like "Window Color and Appearance" (which doesn't have a replacement), and the continued bolting-on of unwanted crap like Copilot and forced MS Accounts - like, even the CLOCK app requires you to sign-in (why?) [1]. There are even ads in MS PAINT [2]! Tell me if this is acceptable?

It will always take a herculean effort to stay on par with Windows or MacOS, and no one really wants to put their money where their mouth is.

I also disagree with this, in fact, Linux has surpassed Windows and macOS in many areas.

Take updates for instance: especially on distros with atomic updates, they are far more reliable and a pleasant experience compared to Windows. Atomic transactions means updates either apply or don't - there's no partial/failed state, so no chance of an update failing and potentially borking your PC. Plus, distros which offer atomic updates also offer easy rollbacks - right from the boot menu - in case of any regressions. Updates also do not interrupt you, nor force you to reboot unexpectedly - you reboot whenever YOU want to, without any annoying nag messages.

Most importantly, updates do not hold your PC hostage like Windows does - seeing that "please wait, do not turn off your computer" has got to be the #1 most annoying thing about Windows.

It's amazing that even with 40 years of development + trillions of dollars at their disposal, Microsoft still can't figure out how to do updates properly.

Finally, your PC will continue to receive updates/upgrades for its entire practical lifespan, unlike Windows (regular versions) which turns a perfectly capable PC into e-waste. Win11 blocking Kaby Lake and older CPUs is a perfect example of planned obsolescence and honestly, it's disgusting that people like you find this acceptable.

There are several other areas where Linux shines, like immutable distros, Flatpak apps, sched_ext schedulers, x86_64 microarchitecture optimisations, low resource usage... I could write an entire essay about this, but that will make this lengthy post even lengthier.

But being a contrarian and dogfooding what KDE and GNOME put out

Please don't put KDE in the same sentence as GNOME. The GNOME foundation have lost the plot and have betrayed their fans, ever since they released the abomination that is GNOME 3. KDE on the other hand, still delivers what users want (ignoring the KDE 4 era). KDE v6 has been a near-flawless experience, and still has a classic, familiar desktop UX that any old time Windows user would love and feel right at home with, unlike Win11.

fighting with Nvidia and AMD

Please don't put nVidia and AMD in the same sentence. nVidia sucks and that's completely nVidia's fault for not supplying a full opensource driver stack (their new open kernel module is an improvement, but many driver components are still proprietary and rely on their GSP).

AMD on the other hand, has been a super-pleasant experience over the past few years. Ever since Valve got involved with their Steam Deck efforts, AMD drivers, KDE, Wine and several other related areas have seen massive improvements. I seriously doubt you would have any major complaints with AMD GPUs if you've tried them on a recent distro.

not having proper commercial software support

What sort of commercial software does your family require? Mine don't need any (and nor do I). The family members who are still working have their own work-supplied Windows/macOS laptops, so that takes care of the commercial side of things, and outside of work we don't need any commercial software - and we do everything most normal PC users do - surfing the web, basic document/graphics/video editing, printing/scanning, file/photo backups etc. Everything works just fine under Linux, so I'm not sure what we're missing out on by not using commercial software.

These distros have had 35 years. I don't know what else to say.

Maybe don't use an ancient distro that's stuck in the past? Try a modern immutable distro like Aurora [3] or Bazzite [4] and see for yourself how much things have changed.

[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/ztv70n/since_a_f...

[2] https://bsky.app/profile/d3xt3r.bsky.social/post/3lhhltgbtos...

[3] https://getaurora.dev/en

[4] https://bazzite.gg/

graemep4• 1 year ago

I agree. I prefer KDE to any other desktop I have tried, although i also like XFCE.

Please don't put nVidia and AMD in the same sentence.

and in general I have not had hardware issues. You can pretty much avoid them completely by buying hardware intended for Linux.

mellosouls• 1 year ago

"Maybe don't use an ancient distro that's stuck in the past? Try a modern immutable distro like Aurora [3] or Bazzite [4] and see for yourself how much things have changed."

This has always been the riposte to Linux-for-normies sceptics - "you haven't tried these modern distros, X, Y, Z".

I've gone down that route several times and they always have issues, from drivers to config settings to just being too different compared to Windows or even MacOS.

Non-tech (and especially older) people will generally have expectations that obscure linux distros (despite their good intentions) cannot meet; they may well suit users who are more confident and curious with sorting things out themselves but this idea that somehow "this time its different" is ultimately on the distro-champions to prove; they've been wrong too many times in the past.

eviks• 1 year ago

Have you even seen the new Win11 taskbar and the shitty Start Menu - they ruined something which they perfected in Win7.

Yes, one of the biggest visible downgrade of a core feature with W11! It's is awful and buggy, but then Windhawk mods and menu alternatives and app launchers exist, so it can tweaked to be good again (though they didn't perfect anything in any W7 or any other version, there is not a single perfect UI component)

The overall UX has taken a deep dive - like with the unwanted removal of classic Control Panel applets like "Window Color and Appearance" (which doesn't have a replacement)

Again, bad stuff, though the classic control panel was also bad, the only consolation is that at the steady state you don't use those often

CLOCK app requires you to sign-in (why?) [1]. There are even ads in MS PAINT [2]! Tell me if this is acceptable?

It isn't , but then why would you ever use these bad stock apps even if they had no ads??? Much better options exist!

But all of those mostly fixable annoyances pale in comparison with the inability to have a great file manager like Directory Opus or being able to find any file anywhere instantly with Everything or having a bunch of other apps (and then you'd have plenty of other issues tweaking OS UI or have sleep or hardware compatibility issues people keep complaining about)

CRConrad8• 1 year ago

the unwanted removal of classic Control Panel applets like "Window Color and Appearance" (which doesn't have a replacement)

Annoys the fsck out of me too. Hmm... Just occurred to me: What if one copied the correct .cpl file into the C:\Windows\System32 directory of a Win 10/11 box and just ran it (if nothing else, from the command line)?

Probably won't help. :-( AFAICT, the Control Panel applets just put the values you specify into the correct place in the Registry, and the latest versions of Windows just don't care what's there any more. Source: I used to edit the Windows Border Width value directly with RegEdit, but after a while it stopped using that value (and even started setting it back IIRC).

throwaway484765• 1 year ago

Windows is still enshittified and everyone needs an exit plan.

For family users I recognize macOS. For windows apps I have virtualized win11 IoT with a passed through GPU. My monitor has multiple inputs and I can't even tell it's not native.

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

I have the same experience. I've tried to use Linux as a desktop since 2000. And tried and retried. Year after year and distro after distro.

Until I realized the desktop experience on Linux will never be on par with Windows, that I need things to just work instead of constantly fiddling to make them work.

I discovered that Gimp is not Photoshop and Libre Office is not MS Office. And I discovered that running things under Wine are not always great.

I discovered I need and want to run Windows software.

I discovered that I like the hardware to work out of the box.

For me, Windows is great as a desktop. And I develop microservice based apps that run under Linux containers/Kubernetes in cloud.

Docker Desktop, WSL and Hyper-V are taking care of all of my potential Linux needs.

I also have a MacBook Pro, but I don't care much about the OS, I mainly bought it for the good battery life and use it to browse the web and watch movies in bed or on the couch or while traveling.

graemep4• 1 year ago

But the most important reason? My hardware is supported. My monitors look great; printers, scanners, mice and USB drives & keys all work. In fact, >90% of the time, everything just works.

the only thing I have had issues with is one printer, and one graphics card with many machines over 20 years, so I would say I Linux manages better than 95% "just works".

marcodiego• 1 year ago

Try doing the same with a Linux binary that's just a year old.

AppImages are very close to fixing this. I'm not sure if it is already solved or very close to.

zitsarethecure• 1 year ago

Adobe Reader for Linux hasn't been updated since 2013 but the flatpak still works fine.

timewizard2• 1 year ago

Try doing the same with a Linux binary that's just a year old.

I do it all the time. Works fine. Do you have a specific example or is this just a hastily constructed strawman?

worthless-trash4• 1 year ago

The shitty thing is, this just encourages closed source software on the open platform, giving vendors another reason not to port natively.

Good luck with the hellscape you're building.

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

I do not care about access to source code or not. I use apps, I do not want to look at their source code or compile them.

So open/close, I do not care as long as it does what I need, how I need.

And I feel I am not the only one thinking like this.

worthless-trash4• 1 year ago

You sure are not alone, your mindset is that of a user, not a developer.

Its like expecting people who only eat food to understand how its made.. You're just not the target.

feverzsj• 1 year ago

Wine/Proton is basically Linux Subsystem for Windows.

throwaway484765• 1 year ago

WSL1, WSL2 is Hyper-V virtualization.

999900000999• 1 year ago

Valve's Steam OS( and inspired distros) already basically does this. It's centered around games, but everything else( if your lucky) is natively supported in Linux.

You can run non games on Proton. Most things work.

CrossVR• 1 year ago

While the Linux syscalls themselves are very stable and reliable, the c library on top of them is not. Practically all of userland is based on libc, and therefore by proxy Linux itself has a binary compatibility problem.

People who primarily use Linux often forget that Windows has the exact same problem. In the case of Windows libc is distributed as part of the Visual C++ runtime. Each version of Visual Studio has its own version of the VC++ runtime and the application is expected to redistribute the version of VC++ it needs.

The only thing Windows does better is ensuring that they maintain backwards compatibility in libc until they release a new version of Visual Studio.

andai• 1 year ago

I remember trying to get a program installed on Windows. It complained that I didn't have the right VC redistributable.

I had like ten of them installed — I think several from the same year! — cause every program usually bundles its own.

I found the exact version of vcredist installer I needed but then that one refused to install because I already had a slightly newer version. So I had to uninstall that first.

As far as I'm aware this problem still exists in Wine, I installed something in Wine yesterday and I had to use winetricks commands to get the vcredist installers from Microsoft's servers. (Also illegally download some fonts, otherwise my installer refused to start...)

therein• 1 year ago

Next time that happens, search "vcredist aio". I can't endorse any of the scripts that are out there but there are many scripts that will pull them from Microsoft and install them all with the unattended flag.

jchw4• 1 year ago

Is libc updates really the primary problem with the ABI breaks on Linux? Glibc isn't perfect but it has versioned symbols going back a long time now. My guess would be the problem is actually abandoned versions of other libraries (e.g. SDL1, old versions of gtk2?) and maybe a handful of other things.

mid-kid2• 1 year ago

Yeah, glibc is extremely stable and you can be sure that an app compiled against it now will work well into the future. People just completely ignore that fact based on hearsay, and that the removal of a unused symbol hashing table from the glibc binary broke a few anticheat systems that were attempting to parse it.

Other libraries are the problem, usually. People are generally really good about changing the .so version of a library when the ABI changes in a backwards-incompatible way. Usually distributions ship both versions until everything they ship either has upgraded or been removed. Solutions like appimage can allow you to ship these libraries in your app.

bregma• 1 year ago

The problem is backwards compatibility.

Someone comes along and builds their software on the latest bleeding-edge Linux distro. It won't run on older (or even many current) Linux desktops. People curse Linux ABI instability because new binaries aren't supported by an older operating system. It is in fact the opposite to the Windows situation, in which older software continues to run on newer operating systems, but good luck getting the latest Windows software to run on a Windows 95 desktop. People are very quick to conflate the two situations so they can score more fake internet points.

The situation is not limited to desktops. For example, a very popular commercial source forge web service does not work on browsers released more than about 10 weeks ago. The web itself has become fantastically unstable and almost unusable for anything except AI bots consuming what other AI bots spew.

notepad0x902• 1 year ago

In Winapi land, the equivalent of "the c library" is NTDLL,its wrappers and other supporting libs (advapi32,userenv,etc... and Win32 specific libs which I consider equivalent to X11 libs). MSVCR in my opinion is there to provide the stdlib for C/C++ programs. In Linux land, the library that provides the C stdlib also wraps syscalls, in Windows, the C stdlib is a wrapper/interface for Windows api's.

My opinion is that they're both great. I really like how clean and well thought out the Windows API's are. Compared to Linux equivalents they're very stable and easier to use. But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with C stdlib implementation on either OS. But for system API's, Linux is a bit messy, that mess is the result of having so many people have strong opinions, and Linux trying to adhere to the Unix principle of a modular user-space ecosystem.

For example, there is no "Linux graphics api", there is X11 and Wayland and who knows what else, and neither have anything to do with the Linux project. There are many highly opinionated ways to do simple things, and that is how Linux should be. In the same vein, installing apps on Linux is simply querying your package manager, but on Windows there is no "Microsoft package repo" where everyone dumps their apps (although they are trying to fix that in many ways), and that's how Windows should be.

Let Linux be Linux and Windows be Windows. They're both great if you appreciate them for what they are and use the accordingly.

teo_zero2• 1 year ago

Very well explained, thank you.

Let Linux be Linux and Windows be Windows. They're both great if you appreciate them for what they are and use the accordingly.

What if you technically prefer the Windows way, but are worried about Microsoft's behavior related to commercial strategy, lock-down, privacy...?

The author envisions a system that's technically stable as Windows, yet free as Linux.

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

There are many highly opinionated ways to do simple things, and that is how Linux should be

I still believe we would be in a better place had BSD was ready for adoption before Linux. Linux is a kernel and a wide family of operating systems assembled from the kernel and different bits and pieces while BSD tried to be a very coherent operating system from the start.

sebazzz• 1 year ago

The only thing Windows does better is ensuring that they maintain backwards compatibility in libc until they release a new version of Visual Studio

But they are installed side-by-side, major versions at least.

int_19h11• 1 year ago

Windows made its libc stable in Win10 (ucrt.dll aka "universal CRT"). Only the C++ runtime must still be redistributed.

IshKebab3• 1 year ago

A big difference is that you can easily install an up-to-date MSVCRT. How do I upgrade glibc on RHEL 8? As far as I can tell you basically can't.

DrFalkyn3• 1 year ago

Linux is based around OSS, so the answer would be to recompile from source.

Falling that, run inside a container

pjmlp• 1 year ago

Adopt GNU/Windows, problem solved.

foxes• 1 year ago

20 year old games don’t work on modern windows that well at all, so that’s one counter example, so not sure where the point comes from.

tombert4• 1 year ago

I recently played Sinistar Unleashed on my Linux laptop.

I was never able to get this game working on regular Windows hardware, even when I bought the game brand new and tried running it on a contemporary computer, but it runs fine with Wine and Proton.

I decidedly could not get it working on a dual boot of Windows 10 (that I installed just to play to it).

Granted, even with Wine it wasn’t trivial to get working, but it wasn’t that bad. The game is actually not bad, I would have loved playing it as a kid, but I had to wait 25 years for Wine to let me play it, apparently.

throwaway484765• 1 year ago

Do you use CD drive emulation with wine?

int_19h11• 1 year ago

It really depends on the game, but generally speaking, 20 year old games (that would be from 2005) work on modern Windows just fine. Games developed back in Win9x era are usually more troublesome.

pkulak• 1 year ago

How much more of this opinion should I read when it’s established in the third paragraph that the author doesn’t realize that AppImage does not bundle a libc? Flatpaks do, and Snaps are a closed system that bundles _Ubuntu_, so really the answer is Flatpaks. And the rest of the world has also come to that conclusion.

vednig• 1 year ago

Thank you for writing these thoughts.

I've also reached a similar conclusion while building ZeeeroOS from scratch.

There's also Fat binaries(arch independent) that should be considered but no one does when building for Linux.

[1] https://github.com/zeeeroos

darkwater• 1 year ago

Everybody is commenting on possible implementations or how similar solutions already exist. I would like to focus on an overlooked but very important fact: most of the important software in the Linux ecosystem is opensource. Yeah, the ELF binary from 20 or 25 years ago might not run anymore out of the box but you have the source code, access to the whole history of source code of needed libraries. It will for sure not be a 0-effort adventure and it will not work with proprietary and closed source software, but it's doable for most of Linux old abandoned software.

jchw4• 1 year ago

First-class support for Windows applications might just become doable, if Wine continues to progress and Win32 doesn't accelerate. There were a handful of quality of life improvements in previous Windows releases, but the biggest Win32 changes feel like they happened quite a while ago by now, and for good reason: Win32 is stable and mature. It's still a moving target, but not by nearly as much, and even if Microsoft wanted to move it for the sake of moving it, they might find more resistance than they can completely overcome. For now, I think Wine is still not good enough to recommend people just use for everything, though. It's incredible, but incredible doesn't make Photoshop install.

However, I also think that we could "solve" a lot of the compatibility problems.

There are tons of old Linux binaries that don't work anymore. But... They could. A lot of old binaries, surely the vast majority, could absolutely run on a modern kernel. The problem is the userspace. The binaries themselves contain oodles of information that could be used to figure out what they need to run, it's just that there's nothing in place to try to make sure that stuff is available.

I really believe we could make it possible for a distro, out of the box, to make old binaries "just work", double-click and run. Want to install an old game from an .rpm or .deb you have? The system could identify what base OS that is and install it into it's own chroot with its dependencies, then create desktop icons for it. Execution failures? Missing libraries? Xlib errors? Let's have a graphical error message with actionable help.

Well, it could be done, anyway. If you wanted to follow the spirit of Windows here, it would be the right thing to do, and it'd help users who found a thing that says it supports "Linux" run that thing the way they would hope and expect it to run. Will it actually happen? Not unless someone makes it happen, and convinces distros, desktops and all other stakeholders it's worth shipping, then maintains and improves it going forward. It's a bit depressing when you realize that the technical part of implementing this is basically the least challenging part, at least for a proof of concept.

prkl• 1 year ago

Or just statically compile all binaries like a (useful) madman

throwaway484765• 1 year ago

Virtualization works far better than wine. Just copy the window frame buffer to the linux host.

mdaniel3• 1 year ago

As someone stuck in macOS trying to run docker, I can tell you that the impedance mismatch between a what a "file" is, and its "location", and the meaning of "listen on localhost", and how much "memory" an application has makes virtualization absolutely horrible for trying to run just one program on a different OS (or arch) than the rest of your day to day

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

This is a wonderful idea. I have some doubts, though. It might not provide a seamless experience.

Just transforming Windows syscalls into Linux syscalls is not enough. There should be some form of emulation involved.

Many apps, like games are using hardware, that means some additional layers of emulation.

Imagine we made a new Linux distro. This distro would provide a desktop environment that looks close enough to Windows that a Windows user could use it without training. You could install and run Windows applications exactly as you do on Windows; no extra work needed.

I a rough user experience, some loss of performance and many bugs.

But I hope I am wrong, because the idea sounds really promising.

frackintoaster• 1 year ago

https://xkcd.com/927/

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

Is there a Wine like library that helps running macOS apps on Linux?

Cu3PO42• 1 year ago

It's called Darling [0], but is not nearly as far along as Wine is.

[0] https://www.darlinghq.org/

xyproto3• 1 year ago

yes, whisky

https://github.com/Whisky-App/Whisky

mdaniel3• 1 year ago

A modern Wine wrapper for macOS built with SwiftUI

I think you misunderstood GP's request of "running macOS apps on Linux" so you swapped the host and guest OS, and then transposed the guest OS under "emulation"

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

Every year or two I check the status of ReactOS hoping that some day I will have a good alternative to Windows. After checking the project status today, it seems that day is still far off.

DeathArrow16• 1 year ago

I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft does something to that effect in the future. Have Win 32 as a layer on top of Linux.

They seem to not be interested in locking the hardware and they don't make much money from selling Windows and it shows. There aren't many strong improvements in Windows and it feels like Windows is a platform they use to sell other stuff they make money with - they are with Windows in a similar position Google is with Android.

teo_zero2• 1 year ago

I've read the article and the comments with interest. I just have a question: if Windows ABI is so stable that 20-year-old programs are guaranteed to run, why are there computers with Win95 or NT that nobody dares touching lest some specific software stops working? I see plenty of these in industrial environments, but also in public libraries, corporate databases, etc.

idiotsecant• 1 year ago

I know in my use case all these ancient machines are nessessary for interacting with some ancient hardware, not a case where wine is particularly useful.

maccard3• 1 year ago

In practice most of those machines are an environment in and of themselves. It’s not that they can’t be upgraded, it’s that they likely couldn’t even be rebuilt if they had a hardware failure. The risk they’re taking is that the system is more likely to break due to being touched than it is to suffer a hardware failure. Which as most of us can attest to, is true until it’s not.

Relatedly, at a previous job we ran an absolutely ancient piece of software that was critical to our dev workflow. The machine had an issue of some sort, so someone imaged the hard drive, booted it as a VM and we resumed business as usual. Last I heard it was still running untouched, and unmaintained.

taskforcegemini• 1 year ago

why touch it? these are usually not directly connected to the internet. some possibly virtualized. "updating" to use wine on linux is a ton of work on its own, you will run into unforseeable issues. nobody wants to pay for that and nobody wants to be responsible for the problems when the net benefit is zero. but a real update/replacement of all these systems is too expensive, hence the status quo.

layer8• 1 year ago

This is usually about drivers, not applications. The Windows driver model didn’t maintain long-term compatibility.

1970-01-012• 1 year ago

Because they just work. Nobody cares if their MRI machine runs Win2000, they care if the machine reveals brain cancer.

regularfry2• 1 year ago

They care to a certain degree, and that degree is the size of the carefully-tuned payment that Trend Micro extract for the firewall product that lets the Windows 2000 MRI machine safely co-exist on the network with the hospital DC.

wvenable• 1 year ago

if Windows ABI is so stable that 20-year-old programs are guaranteed to run

That's not actually true; there are no guarantees. Microsoft does a best effort to ensure the majority of applications continue to work. But there are billions of applications, they're not all going to work. Many applications don't even adhere to the Win32 API properly. Microsoft will sometimes, if the app is important enough, ensure even misbehaving applications work properly.

tex0• 1 year ago

That is pretty much what I'm doing with Steam, Proton and my Game Library. 99% the time it works just great.

lvturner• 1 year ago

Sadly a few sim racing games don't run at all and VR is a bit hit and miss (though the Quest3 with either WiVRN or ALVR seems to work well)

Still I'd rather this than deal with daily driving Windows! I'm amazed at how good Gaming on Linux has gotten over the past few years.

int_19h11• 1 year ago

If you mostly do singleplayer, sure.

Anything online with anti-cheat is usually broken.

akimbostrawman• 1 year ago

usually broken

The working number is usually around 40-50% see areweanticheatyet.com

notorandit2• 1 year ago

I can pull down a 20 year old exe and still run it today on Windows. Try doing the same with a Linux binary that's just a year old.

How this can be considered a good thing?

darknavi• 1 year ago

Backwards compatibility is generally a good thing. It certainly has its downsides (like security) which can be more or less of a concern depending on backwards compatibility techniques.

notorandit2• 1 year ago

20 yo backwards compatibility in IT technology is impossible.

amelius• 1 year ago

While the Linux syscalls themselves are very stable and reliable, the c library on top of them is not. Practically all of userland is based on libc, and therefore by proxy Linux itself has a binary compatibility problem.

Can't we freeze the functionality of libc? Why does it need to be updated so frequently?

And even if we make changes to its implementation, why do we need to bump the version number if the underlying API is still the same?

flohofwoe3• 1 year ago

In Linux, you can make system calls directly...
In Windows, you do not make system calls directly, Instead, you dynamically link to libraries that make the system calls for you.

Isn't the actual problem the glibc shared library since the Linux syscall interface is stable? (as promised by "don't break user space") - e.g. I would expect that I can take a 20 years old Linux binary which only does syscalls and run that on a modern Linux, is that assumption wrong?

ABI stability for Windows system DLLs is also only one aspect, historically Microsoft has put a ton of effort into preserving backward compatibility for popular applications even if they depend on bugs in Windows that had been fixed in later Windows versions.

I expect that Windows is full of application specific hacks under the hood to make specific old applications work.

E.g. just using WINE as the desktop Linux API won't be enough, you'll also have to extend the "don't break user space" promise from the kernel to the desktop runtime environment, even if it means "bug-by-bug-compatibility" with older versions.

maccard3• 1 year ago

Isn't the actual problem glibc since the Linux syscall interface is stable?

Yes

I would expect that I can take a 20 years old Linux binary which only does syscalls and run that on a modern Linux, is that assumption wrong?

You’re right. But those apps are simple enough that we could probably compile them quicker than they actually run.

I expect that Windows is full of application specific hacks under the hood to make specific old applications work.

Yes [0]!

just using WINE as the desktop Linux API won't be enough, you'll also have to extend the "don't break user space" promise from the kernel to the desktop runtime environment

Yes, but. Windows is the user space and kernel for the most part. So the windows back compat extends to both the desktop runtime and the kernel.

You might argue it’s a false equivalence, and you’re technically correct. But that doesn’t change the fact that my application doesn’t work on Linux but it does on windows.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35203390

flohofwoe3• 1 year ago

I'm not trying to defend Linux btw, and I appreciate Microsoft's approach to backward compatibility (some of the Windows games I play regularly hail from the late 90s).

Just wanted to point out that ABI stability alone probably isn't the reason why Windows is so backward compatible, there's most likely a lot of 'boring' QA and maintenance work going on under the hood to make it work.

Also FWIW some of the early D3D9 games I worked on no longer run on out of the box on Windows (mostly because of problems related to switching into fullscreen), I guess those games were not popular enough to justify a backward compatibility workaround in modern Windows versions ;)

IshKebab3• 1 year ago

Yeah the direct syscall interface isn't a problem because it's so stable. The problem is almost entirely glibc. If GCC simply had a flag --glibc-version=2.14 or whatever then 99% of the problems would be solved.

I tend to just compile on a really old distro to work around this. Tbf you need to do the same thing on Mac, it just isn't so much of an issue because Macs are easier to update.

The other side of the problem is that the whole Linux ecosystem is actively hostile to bundling dependencies and binary distribution in general, so it's not a surprise that it sucks so much.

a3w• 1 year ago

I can pull down a 20 year old exe and still run it today on Windows

Barely - most bigger programs did not adhere to all standards, but got custom fixes under the hood in follow-up windows versions.

Also, around 2001 was the big architectural change for desktop from DOS to NT, so this might seem like cherry-picking the timeframe selected.

Gormo4• 1 year ago

Also, around 2001 was the big architectural change for desktop from DOS to NT, so this might seem like cherry-picking the timeframe selected.

It's true that the entire Windows product family converged onto the NT codebase with the release of Windows XP, but this isn't really relevant -- Windows executables and DOS executables were always different things, and despite being built on top of a DOS-based kernel, Windows 9x still supported the same Win32 binaries that ran under NT.

There was even an extension called Win32S that allowed Win32 executables to be run under Windows 3.1. The Win32 API dates to the early '90s, and modern implementations do support executables dating all the way back to the beginning.

leni536• 1 year ago

How often does glibc introduce a breaking change?

graemep4• 1 year ago

There are multiple distros that make it very easy - as in download a .exe or .msi and click on it: https://help.zorin.com/docs/apps-games/windows-app-support/

Some of these have a long history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linspire

They have never been all that successful.

I suspect there is not enough overlap between people who want to use Linux and people who need to run Windows apps that badly for it to be viable.

The biggest problem is games, and even with Steam's best efforts not all Windows games will run on Linux, AFAIK.

t43562• 1 year ago

Dancing to a proprietary tune is risky - they can decide to change the API or go after you with lawsuits if it becomes too competitive.

You can provide backwards compatibility in Linux - you can keep old versions of libraries installed. The more commercial distros do this to a greater degree. It's roughly what windows is doing to achieve the same result.

It's just a cost to arrange and since most distros aren't making billions in licensing they choose not to pay it.

Obviously I have nothing against a wine-focused distro but I wouldn't myself waste a fraction of a second writing code against the windows API by choice.

hnlmorg4• 1 year ago

This problem is related to the fact that Linux distos typically dynamically link executables and don’t retain older versions of those libraries vs Windows which does.

It’s on of the many reasons Windows base install is so much heavier than a typical Linux base install.

The reason Windows retains older versions of executables while Linux doesn’t is because Windows doesn’t have a package manager like Linux distros. Ok, there’s now Windows Store plus a recent-ish CLI tool that was based on one of the many unofficial package managers, but traditionally the way to install Windows application was via manual downloads and installs. So those installers would typically come bundled with any shared libraries they’d need and often have those shared libraries in the application directory. Leading to lots of duplication of libraries.

You could easily do the same thing in Linux too but there’s less of a need because Linux distribution package managers are generally really good. But some 3rd party package managers do take this kind of approach, eg Nix, Snap, etc.

So it’s not that Linux is “unstable” but more that people have approached the same problem on Linux in a completely different way.

The fact that drag-and-drop installs work on macOS demonstrates that there isn’t really a UNIX-like limitation preventing Windows-style installs. It’s more that Linux distributions prefer a different method for application installation.

boricj2• 1 year ago

It's not just about dynamically linked executables. The userland of Linux simply isn't as stable time-wise as Windows, especially when the timescale is measured in decades.

As an example, the latest Atari Jaguar linker (aln) for Linux was released back in 1995. It's a proprietary, statically-linked 32-bit Linux a.out executable. To run this on a modern Linux system, you need to:

- Bump vm.mmap_min_addr from 65536 down to 4096, a privileged operation ;

- Use an a.out loader because the Linux kernel dropped support for a.out back in 2022 ;

- Possibly use qemu-user if your system doesn't support 32-bit x86.

That's the best-case scenario, because some of the old Atari Jaguar SDK Linux binaries are dynamically-linked a.out executables and you're basically stuck running ancient Linux kernels in a VM. It's at a point where someone at the AtariAge forums was seriously considering using my delinking black magic to port some of these old programs to modern Linux. It's quite telling when reverse-engineering an executable with Ghidra in order to export relocatable object files to relink (with some additional steps I won't get into) is even an option on the table.

Sure, given enough determination and piles of hacks you can probably forcefully run any old random Linux program on modern systems, but odds are that Windows (or Wine or ReactOS) will manage to run a 32-bit x86 PE program from thirty years ago with minimal compatibility tweaks. Linux (both distributions and to a lesser degree the kernel) simply don't care about that use-case, to the point where I'd be pleasantly surprised if anyone manages to run Tux the Penguin: A Quest for Herring as-is on a modern system.

hnlmorg4• 1 year ago

It's not just about dynamically linked executables. The userland of Linux simply isn't as stable time-wise as Windows, especially when the timescale is measured in decades.

That’s exactly what dynamically linked executables are: user land

As an example, the latest Atari Jaguar linker (aln) for Linux was released back in 1995. It's a proprietary, statically-linked 32-bit Linux a.out executable.

That’s not a user land problem. That’s a CPU architecture problem. Windows solves this WOW64 which provides a compatibility layer for 32bit pointers et al.

There are 32bit compatibility layers for Linux too but they’re. It going to be going to help if you’re running an a.out file because it’s a completely different type of executable format (ie not equivalent to a 32bit statically compiled ELF).

Windows has a similar problem with COM files (the early DOS executable format). And lots of COM executables on Windows don’t work either. Windows solves this problem with emulation, which you can do on Linux too. The awkward part of Linux here is that it doesn’t ship those VMs as part of its base install, but why would it because almost no one is trying to run randomly downloaded 32bit a.out files.

To be clear, I’m not arguing that Linuxes backwards compatibility story is as good as Windows. It clearly isn’t. But the answer to that isn’t because Linux can’t be backwards compatible, it’s because Linux traditionally hasn’t needed to be. However all of the same tools Windows uses for it’s compatibility story are available to Linux for Linux executables too.

bobsmooth3• 1 year ago

It’s on of the many reasons Windows base install is so much heavier than a typical Linux base install.

Is that a bad thing if it means a seamless experience for users? Storage is cheap.

hnlmorg4• 1 year ago

I never suggested it was a bad thing. I was just explaining the differences.

However to answer your question:

Storage hasn’t always been cheap. So it used to be a bad thing. Theses days, as you rightly said, it’s less of an issue.

But if you do want to focus on present day then it’s worth noting that these days FOSS does ship a lot of dependencies as part of their releases. Either via Docker containers, Nix packages, or static binaries (eg Go, Rust, etc). And they do this precisely because the storage cost is worth the convenience.

feelamee3• 1 year ago

I can pull down a 20 year old exe and still run it today on Windows. Try doing the same with a Linux binary that's just a year old. There's no guarantee that it will be able to run based off some update that has happened

IMHO, you just compare two different things. Traditional method of installing apps on Windows is packing all dynamic dependencies with it. While on linux dynamic dependencies are shared between apps. So, there is nothing surprising that when you change the dependencies of the app, it stops working.

There are few ways to solve this and your are free to choose:

- distribute the same as on Windows

- link statically

Onavo• 1 year ago

This is like the in-soviet-union joke about shouting "down with the US president" in front of the Kremlin. In this case, I too can run a 20 year old Windows binary on Linux wine.

elmo2you• 1 year ago

Aside from comparing two different things, as you correctly identify, I believe that even the author's original assertion just isn't true. Maybe for some exe files, but I doubt for all or even most.

I was involved in replacing Windows systems with Linux + Wine, because (mission-critical industrial) legacy software stopped working. No amount of tweaking could get it to work on modern Windows system. With Wine without a hitch, once all the required DLL files were tracked down.

While Wine may indeed be quite stable and a good solution for running legacy Windows software. I think that any dynamically linked legacy software can cause issues, both on Windows and Linux. Kernel changes may be a problem too. While Windows is often claimed to be backwards compatible, in practice your mileage may vary. Apparently, as my client found out the hard/expensive way.

csdvrx11• 1 year ago

I was involved in replacing Windows systems with Linux + Wine, because (mission-critical industrial) legacy software stopped working. No amount of tweaking could get it to work on modern Windows system. With Wine without a hitch, once all the required DLL files were tracked down.

I moved from Windows 11 to Linux for the same reason: I was using an old version of Office because it was faster than the included apps: the full Word started faster than Wordpad (it was even on par with Notepad!) The Outlook from an old Office used less ram and was more responsive than the one included with Windows!

When I got a new laptop, I had problems with the installation of each the old versions of Office I had around, and there were rumors old versions Office would be blocked.

I didn't want to take the risk, so I started my migration.

While Windows is often claimed to be backwards compatible, in practice your mileage may vary

It was perfectly backwards compatible: Windows was working fine with very old versions of everything until some versions of Windows 11 started playing tricks (even with a Pro license)

I really loved Windows (and AutoHotKey and many other things), but now I'm happy with Linux.

Gormo4• 1 year ago

Well, there's always LD_PRELOAD and LD_LIBRARY_PATH on Linux. My experience has been that most of the time when older binaries fail to run, it's because they are linked against old versions of libraries, and when I obtain those library versions -- exactly the same as obtaining the DLLs for the Windows executable -- things usually work just fine.

regularfry2• 1 year ago

Except that the "you" is different on each case. You're offering options for the distributor. The quote is talking about options for the user, who has to deal with whatever the distributor landed on. From the point of view of the user at the point of need, a distributor having choices that could have made their lives easier if they'd been picked some time in the past is completely useless.

rendaw• 1 year ago

I think it's not quite simple though. For one, I think the opengl driver situation is complex, where I hear you need userland per-hardware libraries which basically require dynamic linking. From that perspective windows binaries are the de-facto most stable way of releasing games on linux.

I'm not sure about linux syscall ABI stability either, or maybe other things that live in the kernel?

feelamee3• 1 year ago

I think the opengl driver situation is complex, where I hear you need userland per-hardware libraries which basically require dynamic linking

Yes. OpenGL driver is loading dynamically, but.. Are you sure that there are any problems with OpenGL ABI stability? I have never hear about breaking changes in it

ryukoposting• 1 year ago

I was thinking the same thing. I've had loads of issues over the years when I have an archived EXE that gets angry about a missing DLL.

Likewise, as the author states, there's nothing intrinsic to Linux that makes it have binary compatibility issues. If this is a problem you face, and you're considering making a distro that runs EXEs by default through an emulation layer, you are probably much better off just using Alpine or one of the many other musl-based distros.

okanat11• 1 year ago

You don't need to bundle anything from the system layer on Windows programs distributed as binaries. On Linux there is no proper separation of system libraries or optional libraries, everything could be both and there are no API / ABI guarantees. So "just bundle your dependencies" simply doesn't work. You cannot bundle Mesa, libwayland or GTK but you cannot fully depend them not breaking compatibility either.

On Windows side nobody bundles Windows GUI libraries, OpenGL drivers or sound libraries. On Linux side, system libs have to be somewhere in the container and you have to hope that it is still compatible.

You cannot link everything statically either. Starting with Glibc, there are many libraries that don't work fully or at all when statically linked.

musicale2• 1 year ago

I am sure this is true. But I seem to have had good results building static executables and libraries for C/C++ with cmake (which presumably passes -static to clang/gcc). golang also seems to be able to create static executables for my use cases.

Unless static linking/relinking is extremely costly, it seems unnecessary to use shared libraries in a top-level docker image (for example), since you have to rebuild the image anyway if anything changes.

Of course if you have a static executable, then you might be able to simplify - or avoid - things like docker images or various kinds of complicated application packaging.

john-radio• 1 year ago

I need to buckle down and watch a YouTube video on this that gives examples. It obviously comes up in computer engineering all the time, but it's something I've been able to skate by without fully understanding; from time to time I see comments like this one that seem perfectly clear, but I'm sure there's still quite a lot of nuance that I could benefit from learning.

hugo1789• 1 year ago

Why so complicated? Wine is cool if you need to run an existing binary but when you're writing your own software, why not just compile the platform independent part into a binary and make the platform dependent part a little library (open-source)?

neiesc• 1 year ago

I sugest https://archcraft.io

thatjazz• 1 year ago

I can pull down a 20 year old exe and still run it today on Windows.

Why, oh why, I have to deal with exe files that are not even 5 years old and don't work on my windows laptop after update... I wish I lived in Author's universe...

WorldPeas• 1 year ago

and you could! all if you could find the right DLLs

bobsmooth3• 1 year ago

Compatibility mode usually solves those problems.

Asooka2• 1 year ago

I have had the same idea for a while, honestly. Yeah you can install wine and binfmt_misc, but it doesn't come by default. It should be the default. Nobody should be distributing binary Linux applications in this day and age, especially not for the desktop. Win32 is just so much better designed from the ground up for desktop apps, it's not even funny. As a simple example - a Win32 .exe has an icon to tell the user immediately what it is, but Linux apps need a ton of hacks and extra files (wtf is a .desktop) which can get out of sync at the drop of a hat. Also the ABI is indeed stable. You don't have to worry about the graphics and audio APIs disappearing etc.

Like just for the audio stack we had: OSS is deprecated so use ALSA actually direct ALSA device access is deprecated use this special ALSA config with a bunch of plugins actually directly calling ALSA is deprecated use aRts actually aRts only works on KDE use ESD actually ESD is deprecated use pulseaudio actually pulseaudio uses too much CPU rewrite everything to use JACK actually JACK is only for audio workstations go back to pulseaudio actually pulseaudio is deprecated switch to pipewire... I am pretty sure in 6 months I will be reading how pipewire is deprecated and the new definitely final form of the Linux audio stack will be emerging (written in a combination of Rust and Emacs Lisp).

In short, Linux binary compatibility is a clownshow and the OS itself isn't engineered for developing graphical desktop applications. We should stop pretending it is and compile everything user-facing for Win32 ABI, with maybe a tiny extension here and there.

1970-01-012• 1 year ago

Imagine we made a new Linux distro

Imagine we made a new shade of brown

Seriously, this is the most cliché thing you could do with Linux.

adham-omran• 1 year ago

It is not just _running_ things that's the problem, authentication and authorization are massive, I've attempted to run various Audio plugins with Wine which either do not run at all or they run on a one-time basis which is not feasible for any long term setup. Oh if only you could run them under a vm..

0xDEAFBEAD• 1 year ago

How about packaging Linux apps as Windows apps so they can take advantage of the stability of the Win32 ABI? Is there a way to do this automatically, possibly using AI?

quotemstr• 1 year ago

In Windows, you do not make system calls directly. Instead, you dynamically link to libraries that make the system calls for you. This allows Microsoft to do all sorts of shenanigans at the kernal level while providing a stable API to userspace. This little stroke of genius allows us to have both Linux and Windows on the same machine at the same time.

Precisely correct. Linux should never have allowed system calls from outside libc or a big vdso.

jabedude• 1 year ago

MacOS has a feature called Gatekeeper, which limits what software you can run on your Mac to only those applications that Apple approves

This is a lie. Gatekeeper in no way limits the software you can run. It presents an easier experience to launch software downloaded from a browser if the developer chose to submit it to apple for a malware scan.

evanextreme• 1 year ago

To add some validity here, I think to an extent we already see distributions aimed at converting Windows users moving in this direction. Zorin OS has Wine support for .exe's almost out of the box, and there's Steam OS / Proton, where (if I recall correctly) the official guidelines for the Steam Deck state that developers should NOT create native Linux ports for new games, but rather optimize around Proton itself.

nunobrito• 1 year ago

He is not wrong. My software compiled with Borland Delphi 1.0 works beautifully with Wine under Linux and works just good as well under Windows.

I'm saying this as Java developer. Delphi eventually proved itself to be the true "compile once, run everywhere". Can imagine others who wrote executables for Windows before the .NET times can relate to similar experiences.

artemonster• 1 year ago

"In Windows, you do not make system calls directly. Instead, you dynamically link to libraries that make the system calls for you. This allows Microsoft to do all sorts of shenanigans at the kernal level while providing a stable API to userspace."

Or, in other words, "We can solve any problem by introducing an extra level of indirection."

blueflow• 1 year ago

There's also no guarantee that a binary produced today on Linux will even work on the various distributions of Linux today due to the same installed library version problem.

On Linux, you are supposed to share the source code, not the binaries. FOSS source is easier to fix than a binary blob. This is why the FSF exists.

bobsmooth3• 1 year ago

99% of Windows users don't even know what compiling is, nevermind compiling from source themselves.

avodonosov2• 1 year ago

"The Looming Future" chapter of the article. I didn't know all those hortiboe things are planned.

zoezoezoezoe• 1 year ago

Try doing the same with a Linux binary that's just a year old. There's no guarantee that it will be able to run based off some update that has happened.

What?? I've used Linux for quite a while, and I've had a very good experience with software. I struggle to follow what they're talking about, Linux works just fine. Using Windows software is also pretty easy and like many people have already mentioned wine-binfmt is basically what this article is describing.

DrNosferatu2• 1 year ago

Doesn’t Zorin Linux already sort of does this?

DrNosferatu2• 1 year ago

A major problem is that Microsoft fundamentally torpedoed Wine by blocking MsOffice compatibility with Wine for quite a while now.

(ie.: only fairly old versions of MsOffice work on Wine)

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