De-crufted Windows 11 coming to Europe soon

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/11/europeans-can-soon-strip-bing-edge-other-microsoft-cruft-from-windows-11/

by thunderbong • 3 years ago

316 340 3 years ago

Microsoft's post notes that Windows uses the region picked during Windows install to offer the EEA-exclusive options. Only a PC reset can undo the options.

Looks like I will be telling Windows that I live in the EEA next time I install.

crunchyfrog• 3 years ago

I too will only install Windows in Ireland from now on.

extraduder_ire2• 3 years ago

Unless they changed something substantial, that is where you buy it from.

josephcsible• 3 years ago

I predict that Microsoft will soon create something equivalent to Apple's "countryd", with the sole purpose of preventing people outside of the EU from having access to this.

mrweasel3• 3 years ago

It's an interesting approach. I might be remembering incorrectly, but last time Microsoft created a "stripped down" version of Windows it was pretty much impossible to actually buy.

benhurmarcel• 3 years ago

It already works to select "English (Europe)" as the region. The bloatware isn't defined for that region so it doesn't include it.

https://www.windowslatest.com/2023/08/06/you-can-install-win...

aetherspawn4• 3 years ago

Suppose you are buying a new laptop ... does anyone else feel sad that their operating system has effectively turned into some weird social media marketing tracking data harvesting hybrid of a thing?

But in the name of progress and security, you can't stay on Windows 10. So for me it's this weird middle ground right now .. waiting for either Windows to U-turn, die out, or for more work apps to port to OS X.

tonymet2• 3 years ago

In a few minutes you can make Windows 11 look pretty close to Windows 7 (or 10) by disabling personalization, content , widgets, new tab content. In edge disable all of the new tools and bing integration.

You’re right about the hassle of doing it manually, and I wish there were a global “Windows 2k mode” that ran the OS as lean as possible.

dannyw• 3 years ago

Pay for Enterprise and a lot of it is pre disabled. Others can be configured via group policy.

jchw8• 3 years ago

In a few minutes

That's a pretty big understatement to be honest. I don't use Windows anymore, but I still occasionally set up Windows for other people and there's so many annoyances that it's difficult to even enumerate all of them.

Off the top of my head:

- MSEdgeRedirect to stop Windows from opening Edge even when it's not your defualt browser.

- Shutup10++ to quickly disable a bunch of crapware/unwanted features. (Some of these break things, too, so there is literally no way to make things "perfect".)

- Have to remove a horde of advertising-ridden crapware too. Groove Music, Maps, etc.

- Stopping the start menu from sending everything you type to Bing seems to be hard, too. I'm pretty sure there are multiple group policy items that sound like they would impact this, but I never seem to get the right one first try. It's kind of hard to find on Google too because it changes.

- I do not know what the current best way to get Windows to stop trying to wake up computers for Windows Update at random hours (and often failing to do so.) I think there is a group policy option, but I think there's also a power options configuration (also in the registry obviously) that you need to change to maximally disable wakelocks. This one isn't necessarily Windows 11 specific, but it seems to have gotten worse over time.

- A number of things are really hard to change: There are third party mods for the start menu and task bar, but they are not perfect at all; hacks that load the actual old start menu and task bar are limited and break with updates, unsurprisingly. You need to patch DWM to remove the window rounding behavior.

And honestly, that still doesn't duplicate Windows 7 for me, and worse, the further you stray away the more likely things are to break during updates. The best I've found is Windows 10 LTSC but 1. I don't think consumers can legally license it (lol) 2. It doesn't work with a lot of software, e.g. Creative Suite has stopped supporting it I believe. So this solution sounds good on paper but it's also not always applicable.

Lest you think paying extra for Windows 11 Pro for Workstations, just don't. It's nearly as heavy in crapware last I checked. It's kind of unbelievable that they still do that pre-installed app crap even if you pay them over $300 for the OS as if I fucking want it, but that's modern software for you. They literally won't sell you what you want at any price.

(I also strongly believe that you should try to install Windows Firewall Control or some similar firewall before allowing the machine to reach the Internet. There's an amazing amount of non-sense that gets sent to the Internet regardless of whether you consent to it. Not sure that all of it is actually a huge privacy concern, but I don't really care anymore; at this point it's out of spite.)

65103• 3 years ago

No man, it is a fantastic adventure! Like a video game you have to carefully move the mouse to not trigger popups, there are quests on how to disable things and you have to make choices with real consequences. The game is almost as good as HP printers. In the end, if we collectively press the wrong button often enough, things will get bad enough to intellectually enrage the law makers.

Or perhaps it will just turn into a self running slot machine powered by tokens earned though full screen always on top porn adverts while AI guesses what kind of work you would otherwise be trying to get done. No more subscriptions or products to purchase: Unlock 3 extra days of Excel by buying something on Amazon! Maybe workers will have to defeat n levels of candy crush to unlock Word processing for the day. Perhaps always-on PC's will become the norm and Bing will watch and guide us 24/7 - into the future!

just_boost_it2• 3 years ago

I got a mac for the first time this year. Honestly, it feels like taking a shower after getting home from the beach on a sunny day when you've been wearing sunscreen. Everything just works with no extra garbage, no constant intrusive updates, no hassle. The only issue I had was the lack of alt-tab, and that was solved by an app called alt-tab.

exabrial• 3 years ago

brah... control-tab or even better: control-tilde

makingstuffs• 3 years ago

I know of this app which allows you to port that functionality: https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app/

Disclaimer: I have never used it, one of my colleagues mentioned it a while ago.

akmittal• 3 years ago

Having moved to mac 4 years ago I can't think of going back to windows. Only downside I find is you need to buy Apple hardware at premium to experience MacOS

amadeuspagel• 3 years ago

Except for apple music constantly popping up?

zbrozek2• 3 years ago

I got my first mac through work this year and I hate the UI. It's very nice that it doesn't come with as much bloat (but it does still come it, e.g., Apple news, music, etc). I absolutely hate the window management. Inconsistent behavior on double click of the title bar (Chrome maximizes and Slack doesn't) is annoying. Lack of snapping and tiling (a la super-arrow) drives me nuts. That command-tab will switch me to a different workspace completely defeats the purpose of having a workspace at all. And I also hate the nonstandard keyboard layout and shortcuts.

Yes, you can install a dozen little extra utilities to customize your way out of most of these things... but I'm not going to. I use systems usually quite-close to stock because of how often I'm using not-my-system or how often the system is reimaged or whatever. Also it's a corporate machine and I can't be bothered to see if each and every bodge-app is permitted by security policy.

The hardware is very nice, however. I would totally buy a MBP personally if I could run Windows or Fedora on it, and swap the keyboard for something sensible.

glimshe2• 3 years ago

I take this refreshing shower at night, when I close my Mac work computer and go use my Windows personal computer. Everything is easy to accomplish, my personal use software just works and I don't have to struggle with extra clicks and movements for everything. It's incredible how different people are - and that's a good thing.

jchw8• 3 years ago

I find macOS annoying no matter what I do. AltTab is nice, but the window management still sucks in my opinion. The security bandages used to work around traditional desktop security models makes it feel incredibly annoying to use; I'll try to set a keyboard shortcut (not a global one mind you) in iTerm2 and suddenly I need to enable iTerm2 to have accessibility access?

Disabling SIP is needed for a myriad of things that aren't really that advanced, like for example, it is needed for some reason by some of the macOS "tiling WM" toys, and it's needed to even use any kexts. No joke: Discord will direct you to disable SIP if you want to .. capture audio during screenshares. It's also needed for macFUSE.

macOS also has no equivalent to WSL2. "But it's POSIX!" I can hear you say. Very fair point, but there are a lot of uses for lightweight Linux VMs, like, well, testing Linux things. Docker Desktop tries but it's slow. I really wanted to like Podman Desktop but it's similarly slow, and I had trouble with networking in a difficult-to-debug way. I strongly recommend Orb Stack here: it basically brings the WSL2 experience to macOS, except maybe even a bit better, vastly prefer it to Docker Desktop. That said, it's a monthly cost, which is definitely not ideal. There's also Colima but I have to say I don't love it either; no IPv6 support isn't a killer but it was annoying to find out the hard way.

I could probably make do with macOS if forced, but I wouldn't enjoy it. That said, I can't really take having to deal with the rest of the Apple ecosystem, so I am stuck very deep into Linux. To be fair, this is nothing new for me: Linux has been my primary desktop OS since high school. But I wouldn't say it's a good desktop OS. I mostly use it because I don't really feel like I have any other options and I already paid the cost to get deep into it anyway.

(I don't hate everything about Apple obviously, but to be honest, my desire to use Apple Silicon devices was mostly tied to high hopes for Asahi Linux)

adamddev1• 3 years ago

I was also pretty pleased with my move to MacOS but one thing I really miss is the file navigation from Windows. Like when I want to drag a file somewhere a few difectories deep. I wish I could hold it over a folder and then have it open that next folder, and so on. Is there a way to enable this?

Also the in application file picker makes it difficult to go up and down directories.

davkan• 3 years ago

Throw Linux in the mix and give up on Windows. Most everything runs in WINE.

mutex_man• 3 years ago

My process for a new laptop for the last decade or so has just been to nuke Windows and immediately install Linux. The only machine I own that runs windows is my home gaming PC due to many online/competitive games not supporting proton or other tools.

Thankfully I work for a company who happily allows me to continue this practice with my work laptop. My last and current work laptops have run NixOS and it's been great.

jszymborski2• 3 years ago

I always deploy the DBAN when I get my hands on a new laptop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darik's_Boot_and_Nuke

Frivolous9421• 3 years ago

Sure wish there were some kind of free and open source alternative written by human beings

gotoeleven• 3 years ago

It all makes sense once you know that Windows 11 actually started out as a tool to help medical schools train doctors to spot symptoms of stroke, Microsoft Stroke Simulator 2019.

boppo1• 3 years ago

Xubuntu is excellent

Zandikar• 3 years ago

does anyone else feel sad that their operating system has effectively turned into some weird social media marketing tracking data harvesting hybrid of a thing?

I'm just surprised it took them this long tbh. Windows used to set the standard for enshittification. Now that they're chasing cloud-based windows, I see they're returning to form.

corethree• 3 years ago

Linux is pretty good. I use all three.

binkHN3• 3 years ago

Surprisingly, I'm not sad at all. I've been using Windows for a long time and recently purchased a new computer with Windows 11. It's such an abomination that it forced me to try Linux for the very first time on my production machine, and I'm very pleased with the results. A thank you to Microsoft for giving me a reason to look somewhere else, and a sincere thank you to the open source community for all the work they've put into Linux on the desktop.

bee_rider2• 3 years ago

There are some downsides to Linux, though. For example if you are made to use Windows at work you will feel sad, having seen what else is possible.

qwertox2• 3 years ago

I'm currently in a phase where I'm deciding if I switch to Linux or MacOS. But it has become clear that staying on Windows is no longer an option.

I've been a Windows user since version 3.0. Maybe even earlier versions since I was using DOS initially.

It's sad to see into what they've turned it. Well, they'd just have to stop the spying and it would be somewhat tolerable, but that's not an option for them.

shiroiuma2• 3 years ago

Exactly, and this is why I'm not really happy about this news from the EU. It's just going to help MS cement its position instead of pushing people to look for alternatives.

Isn't there a Sun Tzu saying about not interfering when your enemies are shooting themselves in the foot?

cowl2• 3 years ago

the problem is that many many companies have standardised on windows as desktop. you as an Employee do not really have a choice. At first you still try to use windows at work and linux at home but the little differences in muscle memory become too much so sooner or later you cave and use windows at home too.

m463• 3 years ago

note that ubuntu is trending towards the bad behavior that windows and macos are trying to normalize.

it talks to the mothership behind the scenes, it forces updates, and although the package manager should be your friend, they have sort of weaponized it so you can't uninstall their packages easily.

https://askubuntu.com/questions/1434512/how-to-get-rid-of-ub...

https://askubuntu.com/questions/135540/what-is-the-whoopsie-...

cmcaleer3• 3 years ago

This frustrated me for years but I just grinned and borne with it because game compatibility and WSL meant I could do basically anything I wanted in Windows and it was what I knew.

Then one day WSL wasn't enough due to dumb compatibility reasons so I decided to dual boot Ubuntu.

Then very shortly after I just... stopped booting in to Windows for anything other than gaming. It was very strange. I've shitposted about year of the Linux desktop since I was a teenager but I never thought it would actually happen to me. It's not a buttery smooth transition - not by a long shot, but I'll take dumb Discord updating behaviour over random updates which make me panic that I downloaded malware from a Google ad. The time I spend on what I would consider dumb bullshit where I'm fighting the OS is about the same.

bigstrat20036• 3 years ago

Honestly, you don't even need Windows for gaming for the most part. 90% or more of the games I play run on Proton without any tweaking needed. The few exceptions are games which use anti cheat rootkits, games which I want to stream to my friends in discord (which doesn't pick up audio on Linux), and CP2077 (which doesn't seem to like ray tracing in proton).

I was very pleasantly surprised how smooth gaming on Linux is. I maintain a Windows 10 install and will for the foreseeable future, just for the odd cases where I need it. But I rarely boot into it any more.

jhoechtl• 3 years ago

You didn't mention Linux by intention? Why?

aetherspawn4• 3 years ago

Nothing against Linux but none of our line of business apps officially support it or even recognise that they may support it in the future.

rvdginste• 3 years ago

Been using Debian Linux as my main os for over 20 years. And happy that there’s less and less of a need to run a Windows vm.

But even though most people are not happy with the recent evolution of Windows, most people will complain and then use it anyway. And Microsoft will get away with it and will take another step with the next release…

binkHN3• 3 years ago

Microsoft is shooting themselves in the foot; Windows is dying and they are milking what's left. The new generation will not touch Windows with a 20 foot pole.

SV_BubbleTime3• 3 years ago

Man, I would LOVE to recommend OSX, but can’t. It’s too much spying, erm telemetry. Apple monitors every app opening every time. I can’t give up a shitty big brother for only a slightly less shitty one.

I moved to Linux Mint with a Windows VM at work for the couple of required things (Office) and while I wouldn’t say it’s painless in any way. I’m personally ready for it. I tried 10 years ago and was not.

So, I think if you can handle it, Linux, then OSX, but Windows is becoming a no go for anyone serious about privacy or security.

sundvor2• 3 years ago

Win11 Pro user here.

It doesn't require too much effort to tame the beast. Until the shit is gone, sure it's not nice - and you still benefit from taking the installer offline mid-way so that you can choose your own username and such, which is a pita.

But once sorted, it's a great and very responsive ui.

And at least with Windows 11, as opposed to Win 10, I can tell the different windows apart, with a certain level of border consistency. Win10 made it all an atrocious blur, it really did my head in (eg Teams/VSCode all blending into one black canvas of hell).

I use WSL2 (Ubuntu 22.04) for most of my work, have a beastly, latest generation PC that I built myself with 4 monitors + a stream deck all profile mounted - and am very happy with it.

bigstrat20036• 3 years ago

It doesn't matter how much effort it is, though. It's unacceptable that one has to do it at all. I paid for Windows 10, I should get an experience that prioritizes my needs (or at least the needs of users generally). Not one which prioritizes Microsoft corporate profits.

enqk• 3 years ago

It makes me sad because I think there are some genuinely cool things in the windows ecosystem such as the debugging and dev experience (ETW) and as users we benefit a lot from the backwards compatibility.

Its also cool to have a kind of descendant of VMS being here as an alternative to a unix monoculture

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK• 3 years ago

I evaluated my choices. Getting rid of all Windows telemetry, cortana, bing etc = 5 minutes with w10privacy. Running Forsa 5 on Mac - in a few years, maybe. Learning all the command line switches of Linux - never in my lifetime. So I chose the shortest path.

atoav2• 3 years ago

A legitimate choice. Howevever whether it is truly a wise one depends a bit on what you are doing.

If what you are doing with a computer involves the need to "know all command line switches", then you will also have to know command line switches on Windows.

A linux for the most part nowadays can be used without command line. When you jave to use it, it would be customization or installation of certain experimental software that isn't in the software center (and that is usually copy paste).

dilippkumar• 3 years ago

Suppose you are buying a new laptop ... does anyone else feel sad that their operating system has effectively turned into some weird social media marketing tracking data harvesting hybrid of a thing?

I purchased a thinkpad without any operating system on it and installed openBSD. I would not recommend this to someone coming from Windows land, but once you’ve been around the linux side for a while, you should come check openBSD out. It’s really really nice.

endgame• 3 years ago

I keep saying that Linux is now the best of the three major desktop OSes, and it's not because it's improved that much. We have regressed so far in UI and user abuse.

makeitdouble3• 3 years ago

It has been the best OS for such a long time. Hardware support will just be miserable for the foreseeable future.

I was eyeing at the options available to dual-boot a recentish Surface Pro, and it was a grand total of 0. Now, it's not a big issue since WSL2, but it would still have been nice.

ChatGTP• 3 years ago

No because I use Linux and every time I sit at my computer I say "thank you" to myself because of it.

I own Apple products too. But for real work, I use Linux.

CalRobert• 3 years ago

I've been happily using Linux on the desktop for a decade.

bigstrat20036• 3 years ago

But in the name of progress and security, you can't stay on Windows 10.

If I hadn't switched to Linux, I would absolutely be staying on Windows 10 until such time as Microsoft stops making a user hostile OS. The rather low threat of my machine getting owned because I can't get security patches any more is far less onerous to me than what Microsoft is doing these days.

pjmlp• 3 years ago

We can stay on Windows 10 until 2025, and even that is kind of open to debate if there is too much business pressure.

As ex-UNIX zealot, those that during university days used M$ on the email signature (most likely still visible in some online archives), Windows is for me still the lesser problematic.

I like Apple's hardware, however I am not paying their tax, when PC gaming laptops offer me more, rather have them as work issued laptops, and in what concerns GNU/Linux I no longer have tinkering needs, been using it via VMs instead of dual boot, since VMWare became good enough for such purpose.

On laptops, even those sold with Linux pre-installed there is always something missing, or one needs to be stuck with the custom OEM distribution, possibly without major kernel updates.

WD40ForRust23• 3 years ago

I switched to Qubes OS as my daily driver way earlier this year and I absolutely love it! It has a couple pain points (it's difficult to get a GPU passed through without tweaks, performance for certain kinds of loads may be suboptimal). It feels really good that the DominationGPT malware will have to break out of Xen to pwn me!

graphe• 3 years ago

Just install LTSB or LTSC instead.

mananaysiempre2• 3 years ago

For 12- or 13-th generation Intel systems with non-homogeneous cores, the scheduler in Windows 11 is supposed to work much better than the one in Windows 10 (including the latest Windows LTSC release from 2021).

sodality2• 3 years ago

In that case, use AME wizard and uninstall the cruft. https://ameliorated.io/

eur0pa• 3 years ago

As others have mentioned, the thread scheduler in Windows 10 isn't up to par with Intel >12th gen. Fear not though, Windows 11 LTSC is scheduled for release in 2024 and I'll be switching over my gaming rig.

zacksiri• 3 years ago

This is one of the marks of good product managers. Cut the cruft from the product. It's refreshing that in this case regulators are cutting things from the product rather than enforcing things to be added like cookie banners.

ocdtrekkie• 3 years ago

Regulators didn't enforce cookie banners. Cookie banners are a form of malicious compliance. When you complain about them, you are doing the lobbying work of ad companies for free. The correct solution is to just not spy on people, and the problem is that the EU didn't go far enough and just ban the behavior altogether.

65103• 3 years ago

Fun thought experiment: How would you disable access to your website after someone refuses your cookies? iow, you should always click NO.

lovepronmostly2• 3 years ago

What is the limit here?

If I own a store and you walk into my store am I required to forget that you came into my store?

Monday:

Bill: "Hey Jane (store owner), do you have any X45 hammers?"

Jane: "Sorry Bill, I'm out but might have some tomorrow"

Tuesday:

Bill "Did hammer come in I mentioned yesterday?"

Jane: "What hammer? Sorry I'm not allowed to remember anything about people in my shop because that would be spying so whatever you said to me yesterday has been deleted from my memory"

PS: I hate spying too. I'm just not sure how to design a law to prevent it that doesn't have unintended consequences.

zamadatix5• 3 years ago

The rules are really surprisingly encouraging about notification of cookies to the point it's quite easy to legitimately need to notify and gain consent about something non-spying related requires consent. E.g. if you have a UI customization cookie which sets the results density preference and you want to store that more than a session (i.e. it should still save for a month later) then the official EU analysis of this is you must notify this is a cookie and that setting this will set this cookie.

If the law didn't intend for users to be inundated with notification banners and consent checkboxes it sure is odd how much time they spent about writing how anything but the most basic connection cookies require said things.

eviks7• 3 years ago

Regulators are the ones accepting the malicious compliance as compliance! So they did enforce cookie banners. When you ignore that fact, you are doing the pro-gov propaganda for free.

mkoryak2• 3 years ago

First read that as Windows 3.11, the definition of decrufted.

SV_BubbleTime3• 3 years ago

Well, Windows 3.1 wasn’t an operating system, so it isn’t really a comparison.

mkoryak2• 3 years ago

Why does it need to be compared?

daft_pink• 3 years ago

I can't wait to switch to the EEA version of Windows. Finally!

ChrisArchitect• 3 years ago

[dupe]

More here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38293303

megaman821• 3 years ago

I have to wonder if there is a play here. Cave on basically all of the EU's demands, it doesn't matter that much too their bottom line. If the EU uses this as the blueprint to apply to iOS and Android, there is much more for Microsoft to gain on those platforms than what they lost on their own.

supriyo-biswas• 3 years ago

Leaked memos from Google show that they stand to gain from antitrust regulation which would help them increase their traffic on iOS and potentially become dominant on that platform.

magnio• 3 years ago

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but how on earth did the EU pass a regulation[0] with such far-reaching implications? First Apple opening up to third-party app stores and RCS, now Microsoft giving users a bit more leeway. How come none of the big tech lobby against it in the EU? If it survives the waves of appeals, the DMA will probably change the entire technology landscape in the near future.

Not that I'm complaining of course, but still, quite a surreal moment.

[0] https://www.engadget.com/eu-confirms-the-six-tech-giants-sub...

The 6 companies are Google, Amazon, Apple, Meta, ByteDance, and Microsoft.

waythenewsgoes• 3 years ago

I would imagine they did lobby against this, likely fighting tooth and nail legally. However I do not think the EU is as easily swayed, especially as EU regulators are generally skeptical of the business practices of large US multinationals. IMO, and possibly objectively, the EU is generally more pro-competition and pro-privacy, it is also much harder to buy out politicians due to the parties being really fragmented and it would appear more difficult to unilaterally impose the will of these corps on their citizens.

microtonal3• 3 years ago

especially as EU regulators are generally skeptical of the business practices of large US multinationals

The singling out of US multinationals is a bit of a myth, it's just more visible to us tech people and since the revenues are larger, the fines also tend to be larger. But they also fined Daimler, Scania, DAF, Philips, Volvo, Deutsche Bank, etc.

http://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/editorcharts/EU-GOOGLE-...

dmitrygr• 3 years ago

and pro-privacy

Are we talking about the same EU that is currently attempting to ban encryption?

dimtion• 3 years ago

It is called the Brussels Effect[0]

Put simply, given how large the EU market is, and how strong its regulation is, it is cheaper for companies to comply, even outside of the market.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect

SkiFire13• 3 years ago

This explains why they comply to the EU regulations even in the USA, but not why they don't try to lobby more in the EU to avoid those regulations in the first place.

BlarfMcFlarf• 3 years ago

Because while corruption* is still rampant in the EU, it’s not at least directly protected by the constitution like in the USA, so occasionally some legislation that benefits normal folks over megacorporations manages to sneak through.

*also known as lobbying with so much money you can buy millions of times as much “free” speech as everyone else.

realusername• 3 years ago

And additionally, the large tech corporations are not from to EU and they contribute very little to the EU relative to their size with their tax reduction schemes as well.

The tech companies don't have much bargaining power in the EU because of that.

pfannkuchen• 3 years ago

I don’t think any sane reading of the constitution makes lobbying protected. It is the current judicial interpretation, but that could certainly change in the future (more so than many other aspects of the constitution IMO).

weinzierl• 3 years ago

It's not about "benefits normal folks" at all, but about keeping foreign competition at arms length while fostering EU companies.

ahartmetz• 3 years ago

IMO it's quite simple - lobbying works best at home. Most governments serve the interests of local industries more than they should, and Silicon Valley is quite obviously not in the EU. Apart from not employing many people and not paying a lot of taxes(!), some of SV companies' values are a little alien to Europeans.

Influencing a not completely corrupted government is not as simple as money in - laws out. That would work equally well everywhere.

throwaway2037• 3 years ago

In the EU, really? I can see it in the US, but the amount of lobbying spend in EU must be 1-2 orders of magnitude less.

Also, all highly advanced democracies have some lobbying. It is not viewed widely by political scientists as corruption.

piyush_soni• 3 years ago

This always surprises me. While as an Indian I'm ashamed of the level of corruption we have in every government system of ours, at least it's still called corruption (and is illegal) what US calls lobbying (and is legal).

PoignardAzur3• 3 years ago

... sigh.

Lobbying isn't equivalent to corruption.

While the two can get very similar in the US because US elections have no campaign spending cap, therefore politicians (and even some civil servants) have a constant need for massive political donations, in general lobbying is a lot more complex than "spend money, get law you like". It usually involves a high amount of, you guessed it, waiting around in lobbies.

In the EU, the stereotypical industry lobbyist is a guy who will invite some commission members to a very fancy restaurant and tell them "About this regulation you're passing, we've prepared a full binder on it, with different policy options you could consider, case studies illustrating the trade-offs of each option, ideas for further research, etc".

Bureaucrats know that the content of the binder will be biased towards the interests of the companies that funded it, but they still read it because it's full of industry information and technical knowledge they don't have.

There's allegedly a bit of give and take, where they expect the info to be biased, but not too obviously biased otherwise they stop returning your calls.

Good bureaucrats will then cross-reference that info with info from competing interest groups, researchers, wikipedia, etc, and hope that they end up with a balanced view of the industry. Bad bureaucrats will just copy the biggest group's proposed laws verbatim.

But in any case, calling it "rampant corruption" is just ignorant. There's a lot of thought put into that process beyond "do what the corporations want".

throw101010• 3 years ago

Because while corruption* is still rampant in the EU
*also known as lobbying with so much money you can buy millions of times as much “free” speech as everyone else.

Firstly, corruption is not "rampant" in the European Union, it is on average the least corrupt political organization on this planet: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022

Secondly, lobbying is not corruption, it is legalized, registered and regulated in most EU members and at the Union's level even more so.

If interest groups cannot communicate their interests to politicians, how do you expect politicians to inform their votes, make laws, and take decisions? Should they just guess or know everything about every topic they are solicited about? Should they "Google" the answers (the irony here should strike you in regards to the original post)?

switch007• 3 years ago

Perhaps they agreed to overlook some tax evasion or something

zerr2• 3 years ago

Btw, Microsoft seems to be circumventing US/EU sanctions. While traveling to eastern Europe, the fresh installation of Edge has yandex (pootin-linked company) as the default search engine, and also proposes other similarly shady websites like mailru.

severino• 3 years ago

I don't think there is any EU sanction related to Yandex. I could always access it (with my default ISP settings, no VPN nor anything like that) and I don't know of anybody who couldn't, at least from inside the EU.

vbeeaz• 3 years ago

Because the EU does not have a tech sector, so they can pass any tech regulations without any fear for blowback.

BurningPenguin• 3 years ago

Dude, we don't live in the middle ages. We have a tech sector. ASML, SAP, Infineon, Nokia, Dassault Systèmes and so on.

heavyset_go6• 3 years ago

If you're using a processor that was manufactured in the last decade, it was built using machines that the entire world depends upon that are only designed and produced in the EU.

rollulus• 3 years ago

Re: “not lobbying”: Google, Meta and Apple are in the top 10 by budget: https://www.lobbyfacts.eu/

thefz• 3 years ago

How come none of the big tech lobby against it in the EU?

Because believe it or not, corporations are legally people and are required to obey the law. Not above the law, like in the US.

Lobby all you want, but weigh the cost of having an entire market worth millions of people denied to your business. Comply or GTFO.

chakintosh• 3 years ago

lobby

There is no such thing in the EU. You can't just waltz into the European parliament and lobby (read: bribe) your way into regulations that favor you like it's the case in the USA. Once the parliament votes on something, it's done.

actionfromafar2• 3 years ago

Sarcasm?

majewsky2• 3 years ago

Once the parliament votes on something, it's done.

The Council and the Commission would like to have a word with you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_trilogue_meeting

lemper• 3 years ago

how come?

eu seem to care about its citizens it seems. so, it might be dumbfounding for citizens of nations with government who give zero fucks about its own citizens.

lobbying

in other countries, it is called bribery. most of the time, it's illegal.

timeon• 3 years ago

It is also happening in EU. It just bit harder than in 2-party system.

PoignardAzur3• 3 years ago

How come none of the big tech lobby against it in the EU?

Because lobbying isn't equivalent to corruption and doesn't automatically get you the laws you want.

The European Commission had a three months comment period in 2020 where various interest groups (FAANGs, non-profits, media groups, open-source giants like Mozilla, etc) all submitted their position (which IIRC usually boiled down to "yeah, regulating is awesome, please regulate everyone but me!"). It submitted its report in December 2020, at which point most of the key points were already decided.

No doubt interest groups sent a lot of people to lobbies in the following years to discuss details and push in one direction or another, but by then the commission and parliament had a pretty good idea what they wanted the final law to look like anyway.

extraduder_ire2• 3 years ago

Is this going to apply to windows 10 too? They are still updating it, and pushing bing/edge a lot.

wesapien• 3 years ago

You can reinstall windows without bloat. Select the "World" region during the installation process. https://www.techradar.com/computing/windows/secret-trick-ins...

qwertox2• 3 years ago

Oh no! I hope the loss of key features reflects in heavily lowered pricing.

aorth• 3 years ago

Fantastic! How do we get access to this "European" version of Windows 11? Asking for Europeans who don't live in Europe, and for non-Europeans everywhere who want less Bing, Edge, and upselling in their OS.

harrygeez• 3 years ago

When I still used Windows I remember there used to be a Windows "N" version. Some AIO ISOs will let you choose

rekoil2• 3 years ago

Is the license the same between N and non-N versions?

robotnikman• 3 years ago

Same here, I look forward to the workarounds that will come.

microtonal3• 3 years ago

I know that this is hard. But the end solution is not installing European Windows versions, but fixing government, especially curtailing lobbying, campaign funding, etc. And break the narrative 'market is everything, government is the enemy' that is so common in the US. Some regulation is good, it makes the market fairer to everyone.

episteme• 3 years ago

Hard, impractical, incredibly slow and high chance of failure. Sounds like maybe installing an EU version is reasonable in comparison.

dartharva2• 3 years ago

You can still have a debloated Windows 11 setup without the bloat by just selecting "English (World)" in the localisation option during installation. Add to that the "no@thankyou.com" trick while signing in to Microsoft account and you'll have an option of a fresh, clean locally-administered install.

genocidicbunny• 3 years ago

Didn't they fix the English (World) trick at some point?

Regardless of that, supposedly for this you just need to set your region to somewhere in the EU during initial installation; Though that can't be changed post-install.

lostmsu2• 3 years ago

What's the deal with no thankyou? Are you just giving access to your machine to the owner of thankyou.com?

globular-toast2• 3 years ago

The European version is Linux, made in Finland!

(Ok, it's a joke and I know GNU is American too).

1970-01-01• 3 years ago

This reminded me of a similar event in 2004 when Windows Media Player was made verboten, and Windows "N" was born:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Media_Player#European_...

pipeline_peak2• 3 years ago

Tragic, we’ve finally reached a version of Windows that’s actually really good. Yet management has somehow decided it’s more important to push this crap as if it’s still the 2000’s and we dont have viable alternatives.

News flash, outside of work and gaming, Windows isn’t needed. And even those are questionable in the future of cloud. What happens when we can run photoshop in the browser using remote resources? What happens when the Netflix of gaming emerges, what’s MS’s foothold then?

InCityDreams• 3 years ago

News flash, outside of work and gaming, Windows isn’t needed.

Sunken cost fallacy? I have some really expensive windows software that I'm not about to throw away, repurchase, as well as a new os/ machine. Windows fits my needs, though the constant telemetry fight etc is very annoying.

pipeline_peak2• 3 years ago

In the future won’t we just be able to run that software on a remote windows container?

cookiengineer2• 3 years ago

Pro Hint: due to licensing issues and EU regulations, "Windows Pro Education N" is pretty much the most bloatware free version, as it's also compliant with HIPAA.

- No media codecs

- No AI recording/transcription features due to missing media codecs

- No cortana

- No Teams upselling, no Office upselling, no Skype

- No self installing games

orthoxerox2• 3 years ago

I installed the N version once, and the lack of media codecs was infuriating. Most programs assume they are always present, so the error messages they give are cryptic and the average user won't guess the problem lies in their Windows having been N(eutered). What's worse, Microsoft website provides several guides that explain how to install the codecs, and they all contradict each other. I think https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/media-feature-pa... is the correct link, but I might be mistaken.

And of course Microsoft bundles a lot of additional programs like Groove Music and Skype with the codecs in a single pack.

soco• 3 years ago

Only when I started programming lambdas I realized how life-saving resource tests and error messages really are. You could say it was straightforward, when you think about it, but I definitely wasn't following it properly before. It turned to be a very important lesson, which I carried with me in all other environments as well "for fun and profit".

tambre• 3 years ago

The fact that made me switch away from the N edition was the fact that the separately installable media codecs weren't available for weeks after my computer auto-updated to a new major Windows release. This basically made my computer unusable for many regular tasks I did, since as you noted most programs assume they're available.

mike_d• 3 years ago

I thought I would be clever and install the N edition of Windows 11, took me nearly two weeks to figure out what extra bits needed to be installed to allow a webcam to work.

lostmsu2• 3 years ago

Speaking as a dev, I recently hit that. In N editions even the APIs to query installed codecs do not work with a generic E_CLASS_NOT_REG. The docs for the API never mention that they are not available in N editions.

magicalhippo• 3 years ago

We had issues at work because Support guys had installed the N version in their VMs that they use to connect to our customers. Apparently some of our client's VPN software wouldn't start due to the missing media codecs.

Didn't take long to figure out and then download and install the media pack. But for a while every time they set up a new VM I had to help them with this.

roschdal• 3 years ago

Linux is much better than Windows 11.

gloosx2• 3 years ago

I remember the first time I used a Windows system last year after tens of years on Linux/OSX, and it was really a somewhat strange experience: the moment I connected the ethernet cable I was instantly looking at random flashy news articles from another part of the world. Not in the browser, not in some kind of "News" app, but right in my taskbar! The most amazing part is that I did not even have to click on it – the system carefully opened it for me to delight me with some low-quality not-even-local news. I was not astonished then to see it resisting the Chrome browser download - something I had seen and laughed at many years before. What also caught my eye so much is the amount of branding around – there are Spotify, TikTok, Amazon Prime, Instagram, and Facebook Messenger icons right in your menu bar before you ever need them or attempt to download and discover these apps for yourself. I mean that is too much. It feels like you don't really own this system but use it in some kind of public library.

pavlov3• 3 years ago

"the system carefully opened it for me to delight me with some low-quality not-even-local news"

To be fair, Apple does this exact same thing on their operating system. On a freshly installed iPhone, swipe right at the home screen. It takes you to the widget screen which is loaded by default with Apple News showing random junk.

Microsoft deserves the flak for turning Windows 11 into a billboard, but Apple isn't immune to this either.

hurril5• 3 years ago

But they don't do the exact same thing at all. One comes preloaded with apps you didn't choose and news or ads right on the task bar. Apple does none of that.

gloosx2• 3 years ago

Not that I like the way Apple does business, but these days, phones are really used for distraction. So, it is a bit more logical to put a news aggregator there. At least you have to swipe right, and it is not doing it for you. At least it is not pushing this widget down your throat. And there's nothing like that on the desktop system. When you first launch and go through some onboarding wizards, it just stands amazingly still and chill. No single pixel of the interface is moving away or appearing in front of your face out of nowhere without your interaction

lynx23• 3 years ago

This is only true if you are in a country which is supported by Apple News. Mine isn't.

beowulfey• 3 years ago

While Apple is far from perfect, the difference in extent between the two is pretty dramatic. I switched back to MacOS from Windows this year because Windows 11 was annoying me to no end. Microsoft has gone much farther down the anti-user experience road.

tim333• 3 years ago

On a freshly installed iPhone, swipe right at the home screen

I've used iPhones for 15 years and never noticed that. There's a difference between having Apple apps available if you want them, compared to things in your face when you don't do anything and don't want them.

globular-toast2• 3 years ago

I'm glad I saw this coming over ten years ago and ditched Windows back then. I probably told people at the time and they laughed.

Imagine having advertising in your own home. Ugh!

type0• 3 years ago

Imagine having advertising in your own home

That's why people continue to use Windows Home and if you want to get pro level of ads in your OS you would use Windows Pro /s

haspok• 3 years ago

The really shocking part of this is that people actually pay money for this experience. This reminds me of the adblocker wars: those who play smart and cheap are better off than those who play dumb and expensive. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

actionfromafar2• 3 years ago

No, it works as intended, it’s Economics 101: market discrimination.

illwrks• 3 years ago

I had the same experience, I used Mac exclusively for almost 20 years.

I use a Mac for 99% of my work also and I have an employer supplied neutered PC which is generally fine.

I purchased a personal PC laptop with Windows "Pro"... What a sh!t experience. Riddled with rubbish and distractions.

heavyset_go6• 3 years ago

It feels like you don't really own this system but use it in some kind of public library.

You don't, commercial OS manufacturers want you to see and treat your computers as app consoles, similar to game consoles.

They successfully got you to view phones and tablets as app consoles, the rest of your computers are next.

What also caught my eye so much is the amount of branding around – there are Spotify, TikTok, Amazon Prime, Instagram, and Facebook Messenger icons right in your menu bar before you ever need them or attempt to download and discover these apps for yourself

Microsoft desperately wants you to use their app store to run these apps on your app console instead of on the web or on their competitors' app consoles.

yterdy• 3 years ago

[Apple app dev smugness stops]

People really jumped head-first into dystopia innit?

Aerbil313• 3 years ago

They successfully got you to view phones and tablets as app consoles, the rest of your computers are next.

Yes. Because it’s only logical. Go and watch what any person outside of tech circles do with their computer. Office, Chrome, Spotify, Steam, Minecraft. That’s it.

Saying this as a hardcore Linux and FOSS user.

Plenty HN folks cannot wrap their minds around that the world is in fact, changing once again from what they accustomed to.

chris_wot• 3 years ago

Can we not just implement this everywhere?!?

Jean-Papoulos• 3 years ago

The EU just keeps winning on the big tech front, it seems. I'm honestly not sure how they keep doing it ; is the motivation to keep away influence from big tech ? Giving a bit of stick now so the carrot is more efficient later ?

karmakurtisaani• 3 years ago

They just care about EU citizens more than American tech companies. If they were European mega corporations, I'm sure it would be different.

lofaszvanitt3• 3 years ago

Can't you see what happened in the US, where these big tech monkeys are roaming around, free, doing whatever they want?

fifteen1506• 3 years ago

Idk about you, I like the bloatware. Makes me feel in a cozy setting, just like home.

No-one will like the new versions and Microsoft will say to EC: see? You dumb dumb.

Same with Meta's subscription for €9.99.

Same with cookie regulations which gave us cookie banners.

This malicious compliance, don't be mistaken.

alok-g• 3 years ago

> Camera, Cortana, and Photos can now be uninstalled

When a user would uninstall an app, would it actually be removed from the system, or just the icons and entries would be. Motivation for asking: Several built-in apps are listed in the Apps section of the settings as having just a few kB in size, which does not match how bloated in size apps typically are in the current times. I've seen mouse drivers occupy hundreds of MB. My guess is that the apps are much bigger than those kB values and the installed Apps settings section is set to let users believe otherwise.

walteweiss• 3 years ago

As with my iPhone that has none of Voice Memos at the moment has data shown as 4 GB. I remove the app, nothing changes, it frees some kilobytes for the app (which I doubt, that the app is in kilobytes) and leaves the data, while it claims it keeps the data only when I unload the app to the cloud.

hurryer• 3 years ago

Some Windows binaries are hard linked to run directly from the installation disk image copied during Windows install .

Those few kb are probably the size of the hard links to the image.

alkonaut5• 3 years ago

I think for app uninstallation to be relevant it's not whether the app resides on disk that's important, it's whether it's interfering with how you use the system. E.g. for a browser it's just important that the browser isn't registered as the default browser everywhere, but you can install your own browser. Being able to "uninstall" an app in a relevant way means being able to make it appear as if you don't have it. Whether or not the files the app uses are still on disk is perhaps relevant for disk space, but from a legal standpoint that seems almost irrelevant.

Shadowed_• 3 years ago

What you are talking about is not uninstalling. It's disabling. Uninstalling should remove application.

eviks7• 3 years ago

Can you cite your law where "legally" uninstall doesn't uninstall the app binaries???

shmde• 3 years ago

Windows 11 LTSC version when ?

lofaszvanitt3• 3 years ago

Kick them back into the stone age. Mongrels of the software world.

whostolemyhat• 3 years ago

DMA already paying off

axpvms• 3 years ago

I don't see mention of removing news from the widgets bar. I could actually use the widgets bar for things, but it's pointless with more than half the bar dedicated to low-quality clickbait that I can't get rid of.

dendrite9• 3 years ago

Out of curiosity, why did the title here change sometime in the last couple hours? It was something like the "no Bing, No Edge, .." from the current Ars title. Did they change the article title after this was posted here? I know Ars does A-B titles for a period after publishing.

octacat• 3 years ago

oh yea, can we also patch Apple? This "Your icloud storage is low" and "Buy space" warnings are annoying. And you cannot do anything about them.

Oh, Apple products have such an amazing usability (they are not, apparently, in 2023, if they think advertising their cloud bundle is ok).

SushiHippie• 3 years ago

I can't count on one hand how many times I've pressed reject on the Apple Care advertisement in the System Settings on a MacBook Pro. It always had a message something along the lines of "You'll never be able to get this deal again..." a few days later it always popped up again.

felixding• 3 years ago

Exactly. I disabled notifications completely because of this which makes the feature useless to me. I kinda miss the good old Growl days.

BSDobelix• 3 years ago

Running Win10-IoT/Enterprise or even Win11-Enterprise is such a refreshing experience compared to the "consumer"-editions.

Why is microsoft making it so hard to buy enterprise editions as a private person?

I would happily pay 5$ a month...well no i dont, but IF i had to use windows i would.

BTW, two nice apps to cleanup and shutup your windows (deinstall everything you want):

-O&O ShutUp10++

-O&O AppBuster

redder23• 3 years ago

Windows will now "always use customers' configured app default settings for link and file types"

This is really the most disgusting thing they did, they really tried soo hard to make people you Edge that they open links from the windows search I think, no matter what default browser you have set. Strangely search is not working for me, might be because of Explorer Patcher because they are so fucking stupid the removed the ability to have the task bar on top in win11. It was a hidden setting that you can enable with a reg tweak then they completely remove it. Like WHY WTF?

I need my taskbar on top, it makes so much more sense. Window bars are top, closing windows is top, browser tabs are top ... Like how many mouse miles do you use more by going all the way to the button of your screen, I hate dumping things down, I do not mind the win11 task bar but I am forced to use a hacky windows 10 one just to move it top ...

Did I say I hate M$ already?

De-crufted Windows 11 coming to Europe soon

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