Improving deep sleep may prevent dementia, study finds

https://www.monash.edu/news/articles/improving-deep-sleep-may-prevent-dementia,-study-finds

by clouddrover • 3 years ago

478 441 3 years ago

The million dollar question is though "How do we improve deep sleep?" I have a sleep tracker at home and my weak point is always not getting enough deep sleep. I'm not sure there's a way to force deep sleep somehow...

hiAndrewQuinn3• 3 years ago

Lots of low hanging fruit in this arena for people who haven't made a serious effort yet. Cutting out caffeine and alcohol entirely from my diet were by far the biggest improvements I made, then regular exercise, and finally a midday nap during my lunch break.

twh270• 3 years ago

That's a good list (though I personally find it impossible to nap during the day). I'd add one thing: reduce stress.

wombat-man• 3 years ago

Yeah, I sleep way better if I go to bed totally sober. Generally caffeine seems to be ok if I stop after 3pm or so.

manmal• 3 years ago

I‘m intrigued by the midday nap, because I think I remember reading that daytime naps worsen night sleep. I do like naps though, and find them refreshing. Have you found research that supports this?

leetrout2• 3 years ago

Similar for me.

I'll add that I take a small magnesium supplement mid to late afternoon as well which helps me relax and if dreams are any indication of deeper sleep I have many more memorable dreams when I'm taking magnesium.

1970-01-012• 3 years ago

Its not so straightforward. Caffeine consumption has been shown to reduce the chance of dementia.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7836063/

Ironlikebike8• 3 years ago

I have always had insomnia and have to maintain very good sleep hygiene. Here's a few things I have found that help me get to sleep:

- No exercise after 18:30/6:30pm

- Absolutely avoid Vitamin D and Vitamin B supplements in the evening. These will suppress deep and REM sleep and I'll sleep lightly all night long if I take them.

- Hot sauna, shower, or bath before bed.

- Anti-histamine (cetirizine hydrochloride aka Zyrtec) as needed - I'm allergic to my wife's dog and some nights I feel like I have bugs crawling on my skin. It can even wake me up.

Things that keep me from waking up at night:

- Gas X as needed to avoid acid reflux

- Anti Inflammatory helps keep me from having to use the bathroom when I know I'm inflamed (getting old sucks).

- No alcohol in the evening

- No videogames, interesting books, or French lessons right before bed, or I'll be sleeping lightly and find myself ruminating in light sleep over these mentally engaging topics.

bogota• 3 years ago

Im jealous of anyone who can sleep well. I have been doing all of the above for years as well as testing out different temperatures and also not looking at screens for well over an hour before going to bed.

I just can’t get good consistent deep sleep. I will say one thing that did help was i use to live in the city and after i moved outside of it and it was much much quieter at night (no trucks driving through or random sounds or honking in the middle of the night) i did notice an improvement.

spelunker• 3 years ago

The biggest improvement for me by far was a CPAP.

musha68k5• 3 years ago

I agree, it's hard but worth it. I have the data to back it up through sleep tracking. I've always felt somewhat unfazed by coffee, yet caffeine flashbacks can be very subtle and do seem to have a measurable impact on this "user" at least.

Also really darkening the bedroom and keeping the temperature as low as possible.

Now if there only were a consistent solution for energetic "night owl" toddlers to go with that ever more optimized regimen :D

alistairSH• 3 years ago

Just seconding many of the suggestions so far...

- no alcohol after dinner (none at all is better) - eat dinner as early as possible (before 7pm, even earlier is better) - turn off screens after 9pm (Kindle doesn't seem to impact, but phone/tablet/TV do) - exercise regularly, but not too close to bedtime - regular bed time and wake time (we go to bedroom 9:30-10, lights out 10:30, alarm at 6am).

Meditation and breathing exercise can help too, but I haven't had to try those much.

VirusNewbie• 3 years ago

Cutting out caffeine and alcohol entirely from my diet were by far the biggest improvements I made

Are you sure the latter improved deep sleep? Alcohol is known to interfere with REM sleep, but I've actually found it lengthens the amount of time I spend in deep sleep if I have a single beer or something at dinner. I tracked this over months with a sleep tracker.

rpmisms2• 3 years ago

I sleep too deeply. 1oz of liquor immediately before sleep makes me able to comprehend alarms in the morning.

lr4444lr• 3 years ago

Sleep, like digestion, wound healing, or respiration, seems to be one of those complex bodily processes that can suffer from dysfunction for a variety of reasons we're only now beginning to understand rigorously. A quality polysomnography is a good place to start.

agos• 3 years ago

and to top it off, issues with digestion or respiration will impact your sleep negatively

bnralt• 3 years ago

One thing I’ve found that really helps is actually not worrying too much about sleep. Try to follow good basic habits, but you can become neurotic trying to follow every suggestion that people make or thinking that a few nights of horrible sleep is going to damage you for life. If I get a few nights of poor sleep nowadays I try to just shrug it off.

leokennis2• 3 years ago

I have a feeling that the more "advanced" tips seen in this thread are more (personal) solutions/improvements for the situation of "I am stressed and so I cannot sleep well". I.e. to make a non-optimal situation a little better.

Which is fine, but in general I'd think having the luxury of being in a calm, comfortable and unworried state of mind is the most beneficial.

_Algernon_• 3 years ago

I remember reading in Why we Sleep[1] about devices that you could wear which would increase the intensity of deep sleep brain waves, thereby causing deeper sleep. Not sure how legit this is seen these days or how close such devices are to becoming available to regular consumers, but was interesting to read about.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep

heipei2• 3 years ago

Personal anecdote, but I sleep with earplugs most of the nights as I have a very light sleep. I would wake from really small noises multiple times every night. In contrast, sleeping with earplugs feels like entering a dark and quiet chamber and then suddenly emerging after 7-8 hours of uninterrupted sleep. YMMV, but for me it's a godsend.

globular-toast5• 3 years ago

I have the same problem but I've yet to find earplugs that I can wear every night. The only only ones I've been able to sleep with at all are silicone ones that mould to the shape of the ear. I can only sleep which makes things significantly more difficult but with some practice I can get the silicone ones flat and not feeling like there's pressure inside my ear which will stop me sleeping.

I don't travel without these now and they have been great, but after several successive nights of use I find my ear starts to get sore and sensitive to them.

The best thing, of course, is to live somewhere actually quiet. Most noise is from cars. But failing that I have to sleep with some white noise source like a fan.

walthamstow• 3 years ago

Similar for me, I use a blindfold and white noise to create a sleep cocoon with no distractions

unsupp0rted2• 3 years ago

Hard for me to get good sleep with earplugs:

1. They're noticeably "there" in my ears, or even mildly uncomfortable

2. I'm nervous about missing important sounds (family telephone emergencies, emergency door knocks, etc)

heipei2• 3 years ago

Regarding some of the comments: Yes, I had trouble sleeping with earplugs initially myself. It's definitely something you have to get used to, but once you do you don't notice them at all. Then it feels like having acquired a new super-power. I use Bilsom 303 type of disposable plugs, the type you'd find on a worksite, although I only change them after a few weeks of use.

krrrh6• 3 years ago

The Bose sleepbuds were helpful for me in masking snoring sounds. I found conventional earbuds too uncomfortable the way they seal, while these make up for the lack of perfect seal with white noise. Looks like the product has been recently spun out to a new company.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/22/23837206/ozlo-sleepbuds-b...

m4636• 3 years ago

This works very well for me. I have tried just about every type but most were not comfortable. Finally found 3M ear classic NRR 33 earplugs and have bought them 200 pairs at a time. Super comfortable and effective.

used to buy these but not in stock:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008MCTXJC

so now I got these:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008MCTOPU

skyraptor• 3 years ago

I still struggle to get really good sleep. I've slept with ear plugs (nearly) every night for the last 30 years. Now there is almost zero chance I can get any sleep without them, even in very quiet environments. Also just checked my CYP1A2 marker and have the A/A variant so I'm a "ultrarapid" caffeine metabolizer and I only drink 1 cup of caf-coffee in the mornings, so this is probably not a big contributor to low quality sleep. Maybe Alcohol (straight whiskey only), but maybe not. When I go through periods of not drinking I see no apparent improvement in my sleep. Still looking...

jacobsimon• 3 years ago

I think the other key question is causality - do people who get less deep sleep develop these diseases, or do people who are developing these diseases get less deep sleep, or both?

I wonder if they could design an interventional study in which people who are predisposed to dementia are given more sleep or melatonin, and then demonstrate whether it protects against the disease.

bryanrasmussen• 3 years ago

I mean one of the common correlations between dementia and 'something else' is stress, people who are stressed get dementia more often. I guess people who are not getting enough deep sleep are also stressed.

kzz102• 3 years ago

The study does not prove causality: it is right in the title of the paper: Association Between Slow-Wave Sleep Loss and Incident Dementia.

Sorry for the rant: we should not share university press release articles, they are always clickbait. Just share the research directly.

Moldoteck• 3 years ago

no alcohol, no coffee after 12:00, try to eat less(caloric food) at dinner & try to eat no closer than 3h before your sleep, make sure the room you sleep in is fully dark, make sure you have comfortable temperature (if you are rich, you may as well get that ultrafancy mattress that regulates the temperature), make sure pillow is comfy, not too hard&not too soft

buzzdenver• 3 years ago

I do not have an answer for you, but I have a very low level of trust in the deep sleep numbers, as they are based on heart rate and not brain waves.

mattgreenrocks5• 3 years ago

FWIW, my Apple Watch's reports of deep sleep line up with my Zeo (EEG)'s numbers from awhile ago.

petesergeant• 3 years ago

My deep sleep has massively improved recently and consistently for the last month. Two things I've done differently (and I'm not sure which is to thank) is taking magnesium before bed each night and inhaling fluticasone. No more snoring, no more waking up tired.

thelastgallon• 3 years ago

Whats the sleep tracker you use? I've been looking at a few, not sure which ones are really accurate.

jncfhnb• 3 years ago

Try brown noise

IndySun• 3 years ago

It's Brownian noise, to be precise.

cschmidt• 3 years ago

This probably doesn't help you directly, but I suspect the older people mentioned in the article may often have some sleep apnea, preventing them from reaching deep sleep. I just started using a CPAP machine, which has greatly improved it for me. Making sure it is always treated could help society wide.

samuell• 3 years ago

I've always had trouble falling asleep properly.

I got helped by the usual suspects like avoiding caffeine after 14-15, earplugs, thick curtains and light cover over the eyes as well as cool temperatures in the sleeping room, but the big improvement came after I stopped eating after 20 in the night, and preferably earlier than that.

perbu• 3 years ago

According to this researched I heard an interview with about 15-20% of the population has some level of intolerance for histamines. Having high histamine levels affect sleep.

I find it interesting that it is never addressed in these common list of what to try to improve sleep. It's not rocket science managing it, just a matter of avoiding high histamine food after 5pm or so. Good sleep might be worth it.

atmosx• 3 years ago

How does the sensor track "deep sleep" reliably?

GuB-42• 3 years ago

If your sleep tracker is one of these consumer devices that you put on your wrist, they are notoriously unreliable (here is a study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7603649/ ). Worse, they have been shown to cause unnecessary stress by causing people who are actually perfectly fine to chase numbers.

As for how to improve sleep, there are plenty of advise, many of them commonsense (see in this thread). But I think that unless you are actually followed by a healthcare professional, in which case he would probably give better advise than random people on HN, how well you feel the next day is probably a better metric than some number on a smartwatch. And if the answer is "fine", I don't think there is a reason to worry much.

evanjrowley• 3 years ago

Somewhat ironically, the sleep apnea screening device I was sent is also meant to be worn on the wrist. There were three additional sensors connected to it. One for monitor chest movements for breathing, one for monitoring breath itself, and another for blood oxygen level.

daralthus• 3 years ago

q10 coenzyme before bed turns me into a log for the whole night

2devnull6• 3 years ago

That’s what I don’t get and would love someone to post full text of the study. They claim this is a “modifiable” risk. I find that claim dubious and would love to see how they support that, and why this isn’t simply descriptive/correlational.

konfusinomicon• 3 years ago

try nasal dilators. they can be a little uncomfortable to start and some brands like to fall out mid sleep (or I subconsciously take it out and drop it in the bed), but I can attest that I sleep much deeper when I use one, or atleast the increase in quality and quantity of dreams make me think I do. also I wake up in the morning in the same position I fell asleep in and not feeling tired more often, where I usually am sleep flopping all over the place according to my other half

QuercusMax• 3 years ago

I've had good luck with nasal strips (like Breathe Right) along with an anti-snoring mouth appliance. I got one from my dentist that worked OK but it cost $1K and broke after a year. I've had good luck with the non-prescription SnoreRx mouth appliance; not so great with ZQuiet which I found hurt my front teeth.

proee3• 3 years ago

Exercise HARD. Try doing some Zone 2 cardio for +1 hours, and see if this makes a difference. Or try some HIIT workout (Zone 5) and see how your body responds. A good overall workout machine is a rower. Try to set some kind of PR, like a 2k time trial. Push beyond what you think is possible and see how your body responds. My best sleeps are when I am physically exhausted - so weak that I could fall asleep on a couch (which is normally impossible for me).

gjstein• 3 years ago

I have some mixed feelings about this. I used to do this ~10 years ago when I was a distance runner, but now exercising so hard will throw my body off in other ways and I don't feel good having pushed so hard. Perhaps this is exactly the point you're making, but I don't target zone 5 for long these days. Deep sleep, sure, but at what cost to the rest of my body?

krumpet• 3 years ago

And, depending on your situation, be careful. I was a collegiate athlete back in the day and recently tried to recapture some of that. The result? Torn labrum in my left hip that really can't be repaired (per doctor). I'm all for hard workouts, but respect your age (and prior injuries) if you're going to go down this path. Definitely ease your way into it.

kaba02• 3 years ago

To be a bit more careful in line with the other commenters’ worries, do not ever raise your heart rate above `200-age`, that’s a rough estimate.

barbariangrunge4• 3 years ago

What's the consensus about exercising when sick? Are you supposed to get bed rest, or will the exercise help you?

f38zf5vdt• 3 years ago

The study is about duration of deep sleep, not quality. And that's an easy one, you can increase the amount of deep sleep with cannabis.

Cannabis users demonstrated significantly longer sleep latency and less REM sleep overall; no other differences occurred in objective sleep measures between groups.

https://bmjopenrespres.bmj.com/content/6/Suppl_1/A23.1

joveian• 3 years ago

Your link does not support your statement, which may not be the case. Even your quoted bit suggests that cannabis just caused less REM sleep that was replaced by taking longer to get to sleep. I couldn't find a particularly good citataion but some say that THC doesn't affect deep sleep (N3) while CBD actually reduces it. All say that the situation is unclear and needs more research.

sys327684• 3 years ago

Try no calories after 5PM. This gives me the deepest sleep and very vivid dreams.

buildsjets• 3 years ago

Try a Valerian root extract supplement about an hour before your bedtime. It's extraordinary effective for me.

https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/valerian

ac29• 3 years ago

It should be noted that Valerian works on the brains GABA system in a very similar manner to alcohol or benzodiazapines (valium, xanax, etc). This is why it is effective, but also why it should only be used short term.

unsupp0rted2• 3 years ago

I take Magnesium an hour or so before bed and boy does my Mi Band smartwatch show a difference in deep sleep those days.

Is it "real" improved deep sleep? No idea.

I do blood tests for Magnesium (and D3, B12, etc) every so often to make sure I'm not poisoning myself.

barbariangrunge4• 3 years ago

What kills sleep for me is any feeling of unfinished business. If I feel like there's a thing I need to do, good luck sleeping unless I'm completely exhausted. So I think mental health is really important, learning to have your mind at peace. Or rather, learning, one by one, how to deal with the 1000 things disturb you individually until there's not many left to keep you up

deegles• 3 years ago

There was a device called the Dreem headband that would use EEG and specially timed tones to increase the duration of deep sleep (look up "sleep spindles"). Unfortunately that specific feature was blocked in the US and they took it off the market. But I hope that something like that will be launched again.

oooyay2• 3 years ago

I went through a series of traumatic events before a deployment and I stopped sleeping. I started experiencing psychosomatic events where I'd see and feel bugs crawling on me. When I saw the Wizard™ he had me start doing breathing exercises right before bed, clearing my brain, and centering myself in a space with no distractions. For me that was a endless white room. It worked and I continue to do it today when I have stressful days and I generally sleep on a consistent schedule and wake up (nearly) on the hour of when I need to wake up. From my sleep tracker I get roughly 1.5-2 hours of REM each night and roughly 6-7 hours of "sleep".

barbariangrunge4• 3 years ago

Interesting. Did you learn anything else that helped you?

ulnarkressty• 3 years ago

I have improved my deep sleep by taking lavender oil extract capsules. They help relax and give me a 'knock-out' feeling that rapidly induces sleep. I also don't wake up in the middle of the night anymore when I take them. Unfortunately the quality of the extract varies wildly, I would get the same effect with 80mg as I would with 400mg from another supplier. Doubly unfortunate is that one rapidly builds tolerance to it. I use it every 3rd day, so I get a deep, restful sleep twice a week.

Quite a few sleep supplements have started adding it to their formulas recently, using melatonin to initiate sleep and lavender oil to sustain it. It remains to be seen what side effects it has taken long term - there aren't any studies about this available as far as I could tell.

krrrh6• 3 years ago

Just a note that lavender oil is estrogenic and topical use has been associated with precocious puberty or gynocomastia in children. Small doses in adults may not be a huge issue, but I would not use it as a sleep aid for kids.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/lavender-tea-t...

pedalpete• 3 years ago

We're doing neurostimulation to increase the effectiveness at deep sleep, and have spoken with the research team at Monash (where the study took place) which is looking to use our tech in some of their future studies.

There is a large body of research supporting this, a selection of which you can find on our website at https://soundmind.co

We don't alter the amount of time you sleep, we increase the synchronous firing of neurons, which is the hallmark of deep sleep.

interstice• 3 years ago

I've been stuck on <30 minutes of deep sleep for as long as I've had an Apple watch and probably much longer. Some observations I recently made:

- Japan has these drinks with 200mg of GABA, I don't know if it was the 20,000 steps we were doing every day or the drinks but on the days I had it deep sleep was often (not always) closer to an hour. Strangely enough GABA is illegal here in NZ so I'm trying L-Theanine with less obvious effects.

- Exercise (even 2h+ moderate) doesn't have any effect, adjusting caffeine doesn't seem to either

- A warm shower immediately before bed strangely did seem to have a considerable although not perfectly consistent effect

- Just got put on Concerta for ADHD and although im getting less sleep i'm also getting 40+ minutes of deep sleep. After recently doing research into GABA + Dopamine + etc it seems to be a bit of a brain circuit thing for me.

Obscurity43406• 3 years ago

+ orgasm before washing up

Edit: am i wrong, who doesn't sleep better and easier with that outcome in-hand?

nunez2• 3 years ago

you really can't. You can play around with caffeine, melatonin, magnesium, weed, whatever to improve falling asleep but very little is understood about these sleep stages to begin with except "you need them" and "everyone needs a different amount of them"

by far the most important thing you CAN do is have a consistent sleep schedule (every day! Including weekends!) and make your bed for sleeping and sex only.

CP3f6kMA• 3 years ago

Interested what the ramifications to polphasic sleep are now

sireat• 3 years ago

All the anecdotal indications is that polyphasic sleep is simply acquiring significant deep sleep debt.

That is: polyphasic sleep is not sustainable over a multi year period.

Humans can still do it while sailing in an ocean, on space ships and similar extreme locations.

However a significant relapse then follows in more "normal" places.

I'd love to see if someone was able to be productive for 3+ years on polyphasic sleep.

Personally I relapsed after a few months - maybe I never truly transitioned.

user_78322• 3 years ago

I'd love to see if someone was able to be productive for 3+ years on polyphasic sleep.

Buckminister Fuller apparently was close. > Fuller reportedly kept this Dymaxion sleep habit for two years, before quitting the routine because it conflicted with his business associates' sleep habits. (From his wikipedia page)

qwerty4561274• 3 years ago

How do you improve it? Benzos apparently improve it but do these improve it the real way?

rex_lupi2• 3 years ago

Benzos do NOT improve sleep quality, they just make you sleep. They in fact reduce deep sleep. Melatonin supplementation may help.

qwerty4561274• 3 years ago

I don't have much problems falling asleep but I feel I slept much better if I took a benzo so I occasionally (rarely, humble doses) do whenever I want to really recharge myself with what feels like a great night of good deep uninterrupted sleep. In contrast to zolpidem (I tried it wehen I actually used to have problems falling asleep): zolpidem helps to fall asleep but promotes vivid (and visually beautiful) vigourous dreams and harms resting so I feel satisfied but very tired in the morning (like if lived through the Avatar movie instead of sleeping). Such is my experience. What am I missing?

Melatonin supplementation seems a questionable idea except for adjusting your circadian "inner clock" - according to this article:

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/E4cKD9iTWHaE7f3AJ/melatonin-...

artursapek2• 3 years ago

Nope, melatonin is best avoided. Read "Why We Sleep".

qwerty4561274• 3 years ago

It seems like Sci Hub stopped working. All the papers I recently found on HN and tried to reat appear unavailable.

pegasus• 3 years ago

Anna's Archive got them all and then some.

qwerty4561274• 3 years ago

Nice. Thank you.

hnthrowaway0315• 3 years ago

Getting enough sleep is difficult enough, now we need to get enough deep sleep...

The only way for me to get enough good sleep is to either quit my job (without worrying the $$) or getting rid of the kid. None is doable.

anonzzzies2• 3 years ago

I have been able to do lucid dreaming since I was 18 (over 30 years ago) and according to different sleep trackers I'm almost always over 25% deep sleep, sometimes a lot more. I guess they are related, but don't know for sure.

meindnoch4• 3 years ago

And what do you do in your lucid dreams?

anonzzzies2• 3 years ago

Depends on what it is; from shooting zombies to negotiating with a mob boss (last night). I cannot really guide what it’s about but I usually have control. I remember most and I usually want to get back in when it’s time to get up.

mebassett• 3 years ago

"We also examined whether genetic risk for Alzheimer’s Disease or brain volumes suggestive of early neurodegeneration were associated with a reduction in slow-wave sleep. We found that a genetic risk factor for Alzheimer’s disease, but not brain volume, was associated with accelerated declines in slow wave sleep"

This sounds like the arrow of causation is pointing the other way.

notlisted• 3 years ago

Cause and effect is also questioned in (much larger) studies: https://www.healthline.com/health-news/the-surprising-link-b...

Interesting quotes:

The study found that []longer[] time spent in bed (TIB) was associated with significantly []increased[] dementia risk. Those in bed for more than 8 hours were far more likely to show a cognitive decline during a Mini Mental State Examination (MMSE)

[...]

The time individuals went to bed was also highlighted by researchers as a critical contributing factor [...] The research paper stated that “every 1 hour advance in bedtime [before 10 pm] was associated with a 25% increased risk of dementia.”

soulofmischief5• 3 years ago

I've had chronic insomnia my entire life, and when I do sleep, it is never deep sleep, to the point that I typically retain enough brain activity to lucid dream.

Dementia isn't an if for me, it's a when. I also think that they have the causation backwards.

loeg2• 3 years ago

I also think that they have the causation backwards.

You think you already have dementia and it is causing poor sleep?

soulofmischief5• 3 years ago

The root causes that lead to my lifelong chronic insomnia are likely the same root causes that will lead to dementia. Genetics, environment. And that says nothing of my ADHD and physical disability which lead to not exercising enough and phases of poor dietary choices, it all swirls into a high risk factor for dementia.

lukas0992• 3 years ago

Dementia isn't an if for me, it's a when.

This seems like an unbeneficial belief to harbor in oneself.

soulofmischief5• 3 years ago

Maybe I'll get lucky! I certainly believe that one's outlook can have huge impact on their overall health, and that focusing on such things might just make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. For now, I seem to check off a majority of the risk factors. Focusing on diet and exercise and just taking things one year at a time.

Clamchop• 3 years ago

I feel you. In addition, I'm on a nightly hypnotic. Both the insomnia and the marginally effective drugs are implicated in dementia and I'm beginning to make my peace with it. Medicine has no answers and doctors don't usually take it very seriously.

I have a plan when it starts to show up, or if the strings of terrible days get to be just a little too long.

I'm in such a string right now.

soulofmischief5• 3 years ago

I'm sorry you're struggling.

Dementia is one thing but a string of terrible days is worth holding out till the end. If you're having trouble making the equation work for you, my advice is to devote yourself to alleviating the pain of others. Works for me anyway. Hopefully it's a universal approach.

If you ever want to vent, email's in my bio.

yawgmoth• 3 years ago

I currently am stuck at a six hour cycle. Any tips to turn that into eight?

globular-toast5• 3 years ago

From someone who sleeps 8 hours almost every night: just go to sleep earlier and /or wake up later.

Impossible to give any better advice without any further information. Is the problem not enough hours in the day (e.g. time wasted on stuff like commuting etc.)? Or are you just unable to stay asleep longer than 6 hours?

densh2• 3 years ago

And there is a whole other problem of not being able to fall asleep. Reducing caffeine helps but not still it's very difficult for some.

deepsquirrelnet• 3 years ago

I used to easily sleep 8 hours, then I had a kid with colic, followed by 6 months of back to back to back illness from daycare. Now I can’t sleep longer than 3-4 hours consecutively.

For me, I think part of the problem is not having enough hours in the day to take care of myself. If you’ve gotten very busy with work or life, it’s hard to do the things you need to do to get healthy sleep.

user_78322• 3 years ago

You could look at biphasic or polyphasic sleep. If it makes you feel any better, humans would apparently sleep in 2 chunks for most of history (waking up for a few hours at midnight-3am and sleeping again). As long as the total sleep duration is adequate, some research shows that it's not necessary to get 8 consecutive hours.

lawgimenez• 3 years ago

Same here, since having a kid I only averaged 4 hours of sleep for over 5 years now. In the morning I’m just gonna coffee drunk myself to last the whole day and night. I think I need a plan at some point in the near future.

leokennis2• 3 years ago

Disclaimer: I am not getting 8 hours consistently, but working on it...

For me the most beneficial is to reduce the fear of missing out. Especially if you have kids, the tendency is to want to spend the evening hours when they are already in bed to "live your old life": game, watch movies, do other hobbies or activities. And then you go to bed too late.

I am trying to accept that I can watch maybe 1 movie per month, watch maybe 2 series per year, and read at most 1 book per week in the time between ~20:00 and 22:00 that my kids are asleep and I can spend freely without impacting my 8 hours of sleep.

So, every year 50 interesting movies come out. I'll never see 38 of them. I'll never read that interesting longread. I will never read Liu Cixin's "The Three-Body Problem".

gardenhedge• 3 years ago

Seems ideal if you're feeling okay. 8 is just a 'magic' number

sys327684• 3 years ago

My mother was the picture of health and happiness when she got early onset Alzheimer's.

She was always a very light sleeper, to the point she couldn't even sleep in the same bed with dad for many years.

As I have nothing lifestyle related to blame for her disease, I wonder whether her brain's glymphatic system was awry.

artursapek2• 3 years ago

I recommend the book "Why We Sleep" - it opened my eyes to the importance of a full 8 hours of sleep. So many people are sabotaging their health and professional performance by only sleeping like 5-7 hours.

bethekind• 3 years ago

An interesting tidbit. Higher Testosterone levels are associated with lighter sleeping habits. Something to be aware of.

So theoretically woman would have lower rates of dementia

durpleDrank• 3 years ago

I have some unconventional sleep tips for those interested.

DURPLEDRANK'S GUIDE TO BETTER SLEEP:

    Line your sleeping room with books. They are an inexpensive way to soundproof your room. If you have noisy neighbors upstairs, you'll "hear" them, but more importantly, you won't "feel" it.

    Use comfortable earplugs and a baggy winter hat as a sleep mask. Sleep masks can be uncomfortable, so this is a great alternative.

    Play a BROWNIAN NOISE loop on speakers in your room. You can easily generate this in Audacity with a few mouse clicks.

    Take antacids before bed. Many sleep problems are linked to acid reflux. Drinking carbonated water or water with baking soda can make you feel tired instantly. For any scientists out there, please credit me for this discovery. If you have acid reflux, your brain won't let you sleep.

    Stay warm. Being warm often makes you sleepy, although the reason isn't clear.

    Use red lights in your sleep room to avoid blue light. Replace your reading lamp with a red light to help your brain switch into sleep mode.

    Limit screen time. Dim the brightness and enable blue light blocking mode on your devices. Older devices may be less disruptive to sleep than modern ones.

    Keep a notepad for quick Google searches. Whenever you have a random thought, jot it down on a to-do list to avoid grabbing your device. This helps you stay off screens.

    Consider taking 1g of melatonin, but note that it may not be very effective if you have acid reflux.

    Elevate your sleeping position to combat acid reflux. Even if you don't feel it, you might have some built-up reflux if you burp or fart after drinking carbonated water.

    Invest in blackout curtains.

    Cover every blinking light or power LED in your room with electrical tape to create a pitch-black environment.

TL;DR: In my journey to fix my sleep, the most critical factors are 1) managing acid reflux, 2) soundproofing and reducing light in the room, and 3) using red light.

musha68k5• 3 years ago

The book insulation tip is great and could be a good segue into replacing reading habits for actual books vs e-reader / other displays.

Even with "nightshift red colours" I could stay up reading for hours vs even with something very interesting to me in actual book form + warm secondary light source = getting sleepy and quickly so.

I'm guessing melatonin does get depressed significantly as soon as you start looking directly into a light source.

hackernewds• 3 years ago

if you have an e-reader swap to the Kindle paper versions and dark mode

roldie3• 3 years ago

I assume you mean 1mg of melatonin?

Also, I've learned that less melatonin is actually more effective, so 0.1 MG or 0.3mg is likely a better dosage

ada1981• 3 years ago

I put together this audio for falling to sleep fast, using the military method from “Relax and Win” by Bud Winters.

- About 100 years ago the US military developed a technique for helping fighter pilots rapidly fall asleep. About 95% of people find this helpful. Use this guided sleep sequence to relax your entire body and have a deeper, faster, more restorative sleep. From your friends at http://EarthPilot.org

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0uXWxpjLrIcMMWzoFMCRkq

trwhite• 3 years ago

This is something I think about a lot.

I sleepwalk and sometimes have night terrors (where I hallucinate an intruder or spiders on the walls/ceiling). Lately I've been having them almost every day, despite practicing good bedtime habits.

Am I going to have early onset dementia? I wake up almost every morning with a headache from sleep deprivation

johnchristopher• 3 years ago

Generic comment: have you checked for sleep apnea ?

kylebenzle2• 3 years ago

Good sleep seems to be a component of long life (1). Intense daily exercise seems to be the best "treatment" we have for sleep issues.

Importantly, there are NO medications known to help with "sleep" all those pills they sell as "sleep-aids" are technically called sedatives, or "hypnotics" medically and don't give the same benefits of sleep.

1. https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...

marknutter• 3 years ago

where I hallucinate an intruder or spiders on the walls/ceiling

This sounds more like sleep paralysis than it does night terrors.

jimmaswell• 3 years ago

Have you checked your carbon monoxide detectors?

captainclam• 3 years ago

Wow, are you me? I also experience this specifically. The hallucinations tend to be "spiders" or intruders (spiders in quotes because they're more shadowy and ephemeral than your standard tarantula) and incidentally, it's been "ramping up" for me lately, to the extent that it's a pretty dependable, nightly occurrence. I too think about it a lot and worry about the early-onset dementia angle.

Do you have any conditions in the broad spectrum of "anxiety" disorders? I've had a pretty rocky relationship with my sympathetic nervous system; variably severe anxiety, some panic attacks, occasional bouts of depersonalization/derealization. It seems pretty likely that these symptoms spring from the same root cause as the "night terrors." Fortunately I'm not personally aware of a link between these issues and dementia, though I wouldn't be surprised if someone replies with a link to some study that ruins my day.

manicennui2• 3 years ago

I feel like we basically know what we should be doing to avoid many illnesses. Get better sleep, be more active, eat better, etc. The problem is almost always finding the willpower to make the changes and maintain the good habits long term.

bitcoin_anon2• 3 years ago

This is being too hard on oneself. Getting better sleep, being more active, and eating better are problems of modernity. When it got dark outside, our ancestors got sleepy. There was no need to exert willpower. Chastising oneself for not having enough willpower to flourish in an environment we were not designed for is not productive.

Instead, let us change our environments to better suit the primates we still are.

armada651• 3 years ago

This. We have created a society where healthy eating, quality sleep and sufficient exercise are all considered luxuries rather than the default.

The cheapest food options are the unhealthiest. Hours of overtime and long commutes prevent sufficient sleep. And exercise is considered a leisure activity.

manicennui2• 3 years ago

I agree, but I guess I don't have any hope that we will fix any of these problems. We continue to make all of this worse. Many of our jobs wouldn't exist if we weren't working on making these problems worse.

nine_zeros• 3 years ago

Has anyone tried using lightweight wearables like whoop that claim to help improve sleep and recovery? Wondering how successful these wearables are.

bennyz• 3 years ago

Check "The Quantified Scientist" on youtube, he does very good wearable reviews and compares them with sleep labs

speak_plainly• 3 years ago

I have no issue with falling asleep but the quality of sleep and staying asleep has been an issue.

Taking magnesium threonate has helped immensely (The brand I buy is MagEnhance).

Using an Apple Watch as a tracker, my sleep patterns have improved greatly including deep sleep, but I wonder if it can get better.

TedDoesntTalk8• 3 years ago

Something like 50% of adults do not get enough magnesium.

"Up to 50 percent of US population is magnesium deficient" https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.h...

There are numerous sources for this figure; google if you want others.

steve_adams_86• 3 years ago

The way I made things better (though it’s always an ongoing battle) was getting more consistent about a few key things. Maybe you already do this, but the key strategy for me goes something like:

- go to bed earlier than you think you need to (9-9:30pm for me)

- get outside and moving as early as possible. Ideally in bright light, and without a time-sensitive objective. For example, leave early to walk to work so it can be leisurely. Or wake up early enough that you can just go for a 15-20m walk with no destination and wake up your body.

- No screens past 6pm or so. I allow my watch, but I hide my phone. I will let it ruin my sleep over and over and over. I’m only a hairless ape, and I need to plan to prevent myself from doing ape things. The watch doesn’t seem to harm my sleep, but it functions as my alarm/quick way to set reminders/way to see the time or weather/etc. But I need to keep the phone far away.

Different things work for different people, and maybe you’re already pretty close to something like this anyway. I only mention it because I started with magnesium threonate too, and it was a long path to better sleep. I wish I figured this out 15 years ago!

ge96• 3 years ago

Sleep is when I genuinely feel peace of mind, soon as I'm conscious something's wrong

Goal in life is to sleep/wake whenever, bad thing is I can sleep a lot too eg. 14 hrs but I normally operate on 5 so I can tolerate my crap job

Duhck5• 3 years ago

I've been going down this rabbit hole for a while and don't have any conclusive answers.

I have always slept 7.5 hours in my adult life. I wake up a couple times a night briefly (and usually recall 1-2 time a night that it happens) but fall back asleep quickly.

My room is dark, and cold. Most of the times when I wake up it's because I am warm from my mattress (casper wave).

I am now purchasing a chilling pad for my side of the mattress to address that so I sleep deeper and more consistently.

I take magnesium because I am very active and have suffered for the last year or so from hypnic jerks, which are terrifying but have gone away since I started taking magnesium supplements before bed.

I occasionally have a hard time falling asleep or wake up early and cant get back to bed, but I still average 7.5hrs over a year -- and over 3 years since ive been tracking my sleep nightly.

I get sufficient REM, dont drink alcohol, gave up weed, and only have caffeine from 9am - 11am daily (1 coffee usually, sometimes a shot of espresso in addition).

Yet my deep sleep averages are ~45 minutes a night.

I am about to be 39, and I am unclear what to change beyond the mattress cooling pad which I will measure.

I've also started cold showers when waking up (60 seconds of cold to end my shower, working towards 2 minutes).

My family has zero history of Dementia so I am not as worried, but I am concerned with staying in tip top cognitive shape if possible.

I am tempted to try a sleep study and see what I might learn.

Edit: Lots of comments to address here.

- I exercise 60-90 minutes daily.

- I play a high level of hockey 4 days a week, snowboard or mountain bike 5 days a week.

- I am slightly over weight by scale, but I am just an athletic build.

- I eat healthy and cook nearly every meal I eat (I live in an expensive ski town with only high end eateries so I avoid them). Lots of brown rice, protein, fruit, and veggies.

- I walk 30-60 minutes a day (active dog).

- I get plenty of sunlight (within 30 minutes of waking)

ben_jones• 3 years ago

You’ve been very thorough with physical/biological variables which would suggest maybe psychological factors could be impacting you.

Do you have a high amount of ambient stress in your life? Existential fears? Past traumas? Unfulfilled responsibilities? Debt?

avalys• 3 years ago

Do you have any complaints about your sleeping other than being unhappy about this metric some app is reporting?

Duhck5• 3 years ago

Not really. I feel tired during the day sometimes but way less than when I used to work in an office every day. Usually a quick walk shakes it off if I have no cardio planned.

I think I’m mostly trying to understand what I can and cannot control in my life as I age

Isthatablackgsd2• 3 years ago

I am tempted to try a sleep study and see what I might learn.

I strongly recommend to get sleep study, they will help to find the root of the symptoms.

10 years ago, I have issues with my sleeping pattern, waking up tired and still tired during the day. After my sleep study, I discovered I have sleep apnea which affects how I breathe during my sleeping cycle. After the diagnosis, I got a CPAP from my insurance and been using it ever since. It improved my sleep quality and I am able to dream more often than before.

If you have the same diagnosis as mine in the future, it will take some time to get used to Bi/CPAP. It can take up to a year to get used to it, it took me two years get used to wearing a mask. I was horrified to learn from my Somnologist that 90% of his patients are not consistent with CPAP usage or don't bother to use them. I know a friend's husband, who is a Physician Assistant, have the same diagnosis and refused to use the CPAP. His wife been begging him to use it because she can hear how he sleep during the night. Still to this day, he refused to use it and still complaining about the sleep quality.

2devnull6• 3 years ago

“90% of his patients are not consistent with CPAP usage”

That’s high. Surely someone can post scientific evidence that cpap helps with sleep despite the fact there’s almost 100% non-compliance.

y-c-o-m-b• 3 years ago

It's been well over a decade of CPAP usage every night for me, but I still haven't gotten used to the stupid mask. I fight with it literally every single night. I own about 4-5 different masks and have tried probably double that number of variants in an attempt to reduce my frustration with it. I can't sleep without out it though, so there's no other option. I wake up gasping for air within ~3 minutes of sleep. That makes me a 100% compliant user over many years. My sleep neurologist was blown away by that statistic, citing the same issues you described: most people do not consistently use their CPAP machines.

mattgreenrocks5• 3 years ago

Can you even be admitted to a sleep study with a complaint about the amount of deep sleep?

whoodle2• 3 years ago

I’ve had two sleep studies. I have once been diagnosed with type 2 narcolepsy and then later as my sleep hygiene improved that was changed to idiopathic hypersomnia. I don’t have sleep apnea.

At any time I call basically fall asleep within 5 minutes and I’m always tired. Has anyone else dealt with this?

I tried modafinil but felt horrible for weeks as I hoped my body would adjust. I’ve also considered armodafinil, but I fear the same effects.

The doctor wants me to try xyrem but it scares me, doesn’t have a lot of studies on it, and it’s basically a nonstarter because I have young jerks and need to be able to wake up if needed.

So all of that to say, is dementia inevitable for me? My guess is that I just sleep terrible.

Any advice is welcome.

brigadier1325• 3 years ago

Some ideas for things to try

1. Eat at the same time every day. When you eat impacts your circadian rhythm.

2. Sleep and wake up at the same time every day.

3. Exercise, fatigue from exercise is known to improve sleep.

4. Expose yourself to sunlight first thing in the morning.

5. Lose weight.

nightski• 3 years ago

I'm not an expert and you should probably listen to the other comments but for me it turned out to be stress. I have been using a Garmin tracker extensively and when I go on a longer vacation and stop thinking about work my stress drops tremendously and correspondingly my deep sleep goes up. The Garmin is not super accurate, but I find it does a good job pointing out trends. Something to consider and it's a lot harder fix than just reducing caffeine consumption or stopping alcohol consumption.

mattgreenrocks5• 3 years ago

I'm convinced that stress is the #1 killer of deep sleep.

Everyone: "you should be less stressed for better health"

Also everyone: "you should work more and take on more responsibilities at work"

At 41, all I want to do is take care of myself and my family well. Everything else in my life can fight over the remaining bits of time.

Duhck5• 3 years ago

Stress is hard measure so I don't have a way to say I am more or less stressed than normal.

As another poster asked -- I have had tons of trauma but also put work in to overcome it. I have a great, healthy life.

I always work hard to quiet my mind but sometimes its hard to. I am an entrepreneur but rarely find myself ruminating late at night about it (these days). When I am stressed I find it harder to fall asleep for sure, but that isn't as often as it was when I was younger

__MatrixMan__• 3 years ago

I take magnesium because I am very active and have suffered for the last year or so from hypnic jerks, which are terrifying but have gone away since I started taking magnesium supplements before bed.

I'm guessing you're taking magnesium L-threonate (Sometimes goes by Magtein). If not, it's worth a try.

I've also started cold showers when waking up (60 seconds of cold to end my shower, working towards 2 minutes).

I do something similar. 3-min cold showers in the morning, yoga to regain the heat, then meditation, then breakfast. I feel it's relevant to my struggles with attention (doesn't throw me off like adderall does)

Best I ever slept was when I was cycling 45 minutes to and from work every day. It looks like you're doing quite a lot (of the same things I do) but if you're interested in throwing more in there... there's soemthing magical about the kind of cardio that lets you explore your limits.

rapsey2• 3 years ago

I've had a long struggle with sleep. The most effective supplements are:

* magnesium (threonate form before bed)

* D3 BUT MUST BE TAKEN WITH magnesium. 5000IU + 500mg magnesium. These two are linked. Taking D3 without magnesium can make a magnesium deficiency worse. This made a monumental difference for me.

* B complex also very important

* Glycine improved my quality of sleep

maayank• 3 years ago

Do you take the vitamin d daily at nighttime?

LinuxBender• 3 years ago

The B-100 complex has helped me a lot. I have to use it twice a day to undo the damage done from drinking energy drinks that have high dosages of inactive B vitamins which compete with the active forms and was leading to deficiency and nerve issues.

lukas0992• 3 years ago

Maybe you should just not worry about it so much.

mirekrusin4• 3 years ago

I discovered by accident that glycine (~3000 mg) + NAC (they also sell it combined as GlyNAC) before bed made my sleep noticeably deeper. I'm not taking it to cure sleep but the effect is strong enough that I have noticed change, quite big actually.

ps. NAC can have sulfury/rotten-egg like scent, don't throw it away thinking it's outdated or something, it's normal

Mistletoe2• 3 years ago

I don't see any mention of exercise in your post.

However, we do know that moderate aerobic exercise increases the amount of slow wave sleep you get. Slow wave sleep refers to deep sleep, where the brain and body have a chance to rejuvenate.

Duhck5• 3 years ago

Updated my post, I get 60-90 minutes of cardio a day and 30-60 of walking (zone 2)

theptip• 3 years ago

Having gone down this route recently, I can +1 the cooling pad. I used Ooler, there are many options now.

However also worth considering a better mattress, memory foam is really hot. I just upgraded to an innerspring base / latex & microcoil top, and my previous issues with overheating are gone. YMMV, there are arguments for cooling even if your passive situation isn’t too hot.

dota_fanatic• 3 years ago

As another poster linked, you may be a slow caffeine metabolizer. I am and avoiding caffeine entirely makes a big difference.

Another thing that might be making a difference is what you do in the hour to two hours before sleep. If I do anything exciting, like sports, suspenseful media & games, or anything analytical, then that will delay how quickly my body relaxes into later in the night, which messes up the beginning of the night when deep sleep mostly occurs.

Lastly, if you're measuring your deep sleep based off of a device that isn't on your head, then take that data with a huge grain of salt. I compared sleep data from an Oura ring with the Dreem 2 headband and the ring was consistently so wrong as to be useless for driving better sleep behavior.

Duhck5• 3 years ago

This is a great recommendation -- I dont really need caffeine but its a ritual I adore. I can definitely give it up so I think its where I can start. Thank you!

cco2• 3 years ago

Really disappointed to learn they took the Dreem 2 off the market, it looked very interesting!

clove• 3 years ago

My ring - thus far - has been extremely correct about my sleep, as far as my wife and I can tell.

However, its activity recording is extremely inaccurate. I get moderate/low activity scores every day despite engaging in intensive weightlifting sessions, riding bicycles, and going to jujutsu class. I lift till I cannot lift; I roll until I gas out... yet my ring tells me, day after day, I need to be more active.

herf• 3 years ago

I avoid all "cooling foam" or "gel foam" as it has a relatively fixed capacity to absorb heat. In other words, it seems cold in the store and also for the first few hours of the night. But after it does its phase-change magic, it gets dramatically hotter and can wake you up around the time cortisol starts increasing like 3-4AM.

bityard2• 3 years ago

Can confirm... I have a foam mattress that claims to have the fancy cooling stuff built in. It's actually all-around fine in the summer when the temps are 75F inside and I can sleep with few/no blankets, but I live in the Midwest and the house thermostat is set to heat up to 65F for 2/3 of the year. For the first 15 minutes, it's like crawling into a very soft refrigerator. And a few hours later, I'll wake up dehydrated and soaked in sweat.

I've managed to mostly tame it by putting a quilt or two under the bottom sheet.

mrDmrTmrJ• 3 years ago

Nothing has helped my sleep more than using 3M medical tape to tape my mouth shut during sleep. So I'm forced to breath through my noise when I sleep. (Or I wake up and remove the tape if I'm stuffed up.)

I had sleep issues all my life. My dentist said it looked like I had sleep issues (one side of my teether pushed on more than the others) and a surgeon recommended increasing the size of my nasal cavity. But I didn't want surgery. When the book "Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art" by James Nestor I saw several unrelated people report success with this. It's completely changed my life and I wish I had started this long ago.

(Obviously not medical advice, I'm not a doctor at all, do your own research etc.)

hattmall• 3 years ago

Have you ever tried a different sleep schedule? Or have you ever noticed a difference in a different timezone?

For me I get deep sleep best between around 8-10Pm and about 9Am-1pm. My sleep at night is fairly restless even if I try and do all the proper steps, but I can get great sleep pretty much no matter what during those hours.

drzaiusapelord• 3 years ago

For a lot of people, zero caffeine is the only way to get proper sleep.

aantix11• 3 years ago

If you're a slow metabolizer of caffeine like I am, stay away from caffeine.

CYP1A2

https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/liver-detox-genes-cyp1a2/

The difference in sleep quality is dramatic.

If I have caffeine, even a small 20mg at 7am, I'm up 4-6 times the next night, going to the bathroom, superficial sleep.

Without caffeine, I'm in a deep sleep. So much so that I don't change positions at all, and my body slightly aches from being in the same position so long. My bladder nearly feels like it's going to burst, because I've slept so long.

There was a study I saw while back that said eating cruciferous vegetables speeds up caffeine metabolism. I've tried that, but that didn't seem to help. The caffeine still seemed to disturb my sleep. I tried BrocoMax, a broccoli supplement, that didn't seem to help either.

Exercise helps a little bit. But it's still not the quality of sleep I receive with zero caffeine.

I think much faster when I drink caffeine. Recently I revisited this issue and tried micro-dosing 5-Hour Energy (2mL). At first it seemed promising. But then it seems to slowly build up in my system. Sleep quality deteriorates slower. But the deterioration is there. I prematurely posted this status.

https://twitter.com/aantix/status/1706020516060971399

Sadly, it doesn't appear that I can drink caffeine and have quality sleep.

I hate that I have to choose.

lpa22• 3 years ago

It took me far too long to realize caffeine was the cause of my restless sleep issues. Even just 80mg at 10am. I thought it was stress. There’s definitely millions of other people that don’t realize caffeine is killing them slowly due to lack of good sleep, and just continue the cycle.

dharma1• 3 years ago

same here - I can still feel the effects of a cup of coffee at midnight that I drank at 10am

2devnull6• 3 years ago

For some people, the effects of caffeine seem to be permanent. I am one.

mattgreenrocks5• 3 years ago

Can you expand on this?

dmd4• 3 years ago

small 20mg

And if you're someone like me - beware that 'decaf' really isn't. Even as little as *5 mg* of caffeine causes me everything from sleeplessness to migraines (verified with a double blind study administered by my wife!)

olalonde• 3 years ago

Nitpick: assuming your wife knew which sample was decaf and which was regular coffee, it would be a single-blind experiment.

LeafItAlone3• 3 years ago

How did you account for the placebo effect?

Decaf coffee tastes about the same as regular coffee (some people claim to tell the difference, but I can’t except that when I get decaf it’s the cheap mass produced stuff and for regular coffee I like to support local roasters). Maybe the taste was triggering the same effects?

yangikan• 3 years ago

Is there a place where I can get a whole genome sequencing and where they don't sell my data?

conradev2• 3 years ago

I used Dante Labs and asked them to delete my data under the GDPR after downloading it

They give you all the data – raw reads and a whole aligned genome for a fairly reasonable price

aantix11• 3 years ago

Nebula Genomics has a pretty good privacy policy.

https://nebula.org/ownership-of-your-genetic-data/

astrange9• 3 years ago

Selling data is the credit card and ad tech industry, not genetics. Your 23AndMe data has approximately no value unless you take the research surveys, since there's nothing to associate it with.

conradev2• 3 years ago

I also hate that I have to choose. I purchased 10mg caffeine gummies and was optimistic, but, like you, even if I have two at 7am I feel the effects at 11pm when trying to sleep.

I wish I could alter the amount or intake mechanism and be fine, but it’s fundamentally what happens once it’s in my bloodstream.

pastor_bob• 3 years ago

My bladder nearly feels like it's going to burst, because I've slept so long.

I don't think having to pee has anything to do with the type of sleep you get. I've heard, if anything, it's a symptom of sleep apnea.

Afforess• 3 years ago

I'm an A/C, neither AA nor CC. Not a lot out there on that, some say "slow" is dominant, but that leaves me confused because I have none of the problems you've described and I drink 200-400mg of caffeine a day (monster energy + 3x 12oz soda).

UniverseHacker4• 3 years ago

A/C is still considered a slow metabolizer. This is just one allele that affects caffeine metabolism... there is still probably a ton of variability from person to person within the same allele here. I am A/C and have all of the problems described here.

kieranmaine• 3 years ago

Apologies for the lazy comment (I know I could do the research, but I'm busy atm).

I 100% agree this is an affect of caffeine, but I'm also interested in what research on the following shows:

1. How does caffeine compare to other factors (stress, exercise, diet) in affecting sleep? 2. Does caffeine have a placebo affect on sleep quality?

I ask these questions, as I've found that caffeine does affect my sleep quality, but at the same time stress levels are probably a better predictor of how well I sleep.

amelius• 3 years ago

Any way to boost CYP1A2 or any other gene involved in coffee metabolism?

aantix11• 3 years ago

Nothing that I have found.

Eating cruciferous vegetables, sleep, nothing has seemed to help much.

I tried taking BroccoMax for its Sulforaphane content. As suggested in the article below. Even when taking BroccoMax, ingesting a cup of coffee, my sleep still suffered.

Fast Caffeine Metabolism for Better Sleep with Sulforaphane

https://burtonator.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/fast-caffeine-me...

TedDoesntTalk8• 3 years ago

The linked article mentions cruciferous vegetables

hombre_fatal• 3 years ago

I don't know how people put up with waking up to pee. Is it really worth it to eat/drink within a few hours of bedtime if it's going to wake you up at 3am?

radlad• 3 years ago

On the flip side, I typically drink 16-32 oz of water before sleeping and never wake up needing to pee.

ryandetzel• 3 years ago

If I drink past 2pm I'm up...weird but only started after I was 40 really. I'm starting to think my sleep just sucks so my mind is more aware that I have to go and not that something has changed with my bladder

RoyalHenOil• 3 years ago

It's a circadian rhythm thing. You get into a habit of peeing at specific times, and that can include in the middle of the night.

You can fix the habit by waiting a half hour longer to pee each night until you can make it to the morning, but this does involve lying awake in bed for a while, which is much worse for your sleep than just getting up quickly to pee.

rcconf• 3 years ago

I have the same issue, it's truly unfortunate. What's odd is I forget about what caffeine does to my sleep and after a few weeks/months of drinking it, I'm wondering why I'm so stressed, tired and can't get ANY sleep.

I stop drinking coffee and BAM, I sleep like a baby. It doesn't MATTER when I drink it, I can drink it at 6AM and I will not have a good deep sleep. I am unsure if this is coincidence, but I also notice I remember way less dreams when I am on caffeine than not. I also find it's a compounding effect which is why it's slightly annoying.

If I drink 1 cup, in 2 weeks, my sleep will be fine so I will think, okay, it's not the caffeine. Then I will continue drinking it for weeks and suddenly I haven't had a good nights rest in weeks and I'm wondering what is going on. Not having deep sleep for weeks really has a big impact on your stress levels, memory, emotional well being and general energy levels.

The annoying part is coffee is so good for productivity so I go through cycles (also you start to think it's the stress not the caffeine that's causing the sleep issue!)

Weeks of stressful work - drink more caffeine to get all the work done - bad sleep, bad mood, bad energy levels, aka all the negative affects from not having enough deep sleep.

Weeks of less stressful work, no caffeine, great sleep, great mood/energy levels, etc.

I've always convinced myself that not drinking caffeine for deep sleep is just placebo, but I've tested it so many times that it just can't be.

Is there a way to test if you're a slower metabolizer? I know my partner can drink 3 cups and she is totally fine, lucky her! I'm 100% convinced I am, but it would be cool to test by some sort of blood/urine test?

aantix11• 3 years ago

You'll have to do a genetic test. Nebula, 23andme, etc.

Then look at CYP1A2, see if you have the C/C genotype.

Definitely read the Genetic Life Hacks article that I linked to above.

mattgreenrocks5• 3 years ago

Fascinating. What are your deep sleep totals on and off caffeine?

MetallicDragon2• 3 years ago

This sounds like the same cycle I go through, especially the forgetting part. I've found that cycling caffeine through the week (taking a break on weekends) and just not having too much even during the week can help maintain the productivity, but it also means spending my weekends in a tired daze. I think I just need to commit to not having any caffeine, or if I do, only taking it temporarily before stopping again.

Obscurity43406• 3 years ago

So if I can fall asleep after moderate amounts (like, right away after intake), this prolly doesn't affect me, no?

LeafItAlone3• 3 years ago

Yours and all of the child comments are fascinating to me. I can drink a cup of coffee right before bed and it doesn’t seem to affect my sleep noticeably (e.g. I feel just as refreshed the next day as when I don’t).

I have even tried to give it up multiple times and have lasted well over a month before deciding that I was still more tired (and irritable) than when summoning it.

skottenborg• 3 years ago

It's very interesting how different reactions to caffeine are. I can take a 200 mg caffeine pill 5 hours before sleep and have no trouble sleeping. My Samsung smartwatch doesn't indicate any loss of deep sleep either (1-2 hours usually).

I do have a high tolerance though, but I don't weight much either.

baby6• 3 years ago

It's interesting because this was me. I couldn't drink coffee, even in the morning, without getting pretty strong jitters AND not being able to sleep at night. I didn't know it could be because of slow metabolizing.

But I've been forcing myself to drink coffee for some of its benefits (heart and focus) and now I can drink coffee at 3pm, no jitters, no effect to sleep. I'm actually wondering if I sleep better by drinking coffee because I'm more active during the day and much more tired when I hit the bed now.

aantix11• 3 years ago

For those with impacted sleep due to caffeine -

Have you found any supplements or alternatives that increase focus but did not impact your sleep quality?

Sadly, I have no alternative recommendations. Everything that claims to increase "focus", also appears to impact my sleep.

manifoldgeo• 3 years ago

If you have ADD or ADHD, Ritalin might help. I have severe ADHD that I refused to treat for decades, but I recently gave in.

I am _hugely_ sensitive to caffeine and feel a buzz even from decaf. It ruins my sleep in a similar way to what a couple people in this thread describe.

I take 10mg of instant-release Ritalin at 7AM each day, and it allows me to focus and deliver. It wears off by around 2-3PM, and I sleep like a rock most nights.

There are downsides as well: once it wears off, it leaves you mentally drained until you've slept. Also, there's a potential for building a tolerance, as well as potential for addiction. I've been lucky in both cases so far, but ymmv.

crucialfelix• 3 years ago

Creatine, phenylpiracetam, tyrosine, 7 minute workout.

krrrh6• 3 years ago

Low dose nicotine gum does help, but it’s pretty habit forming. I’m not convinced it’s worse than taking daily ADHD medication or caffeine though.

Aerobic exercise (preferably outdoors) is the one thing that works with mostly positive side effects.

asicsarecool• 3 years ago

L-theanine

Seriously.

I panic if I run out

svachalek• 3 years ago

Kava. It's calming unlike caffeine, but also seems to help concentration. It seems to flush out of my system very quickly, so that I haven't noticed it affecting sleep either way.

illegalsmile2• 3 years ago

Interesting, I've been working on my sleep and read this from the article you posted: Curcumin is an inhibitor of CYP1A2.

I sleep really well with a 200-400mg of Ibuprofen but it's not something I want to take often or at all for sleep. Curcumin/turmeric is also anti-inflammatory. I'm starting to think that cutting out all caffeine (cup of black tea in the morning) and taking some curcumin might be the way to better sleep.

Reason077• 3 years ago

Definitely be careful with Ibuprofen. Real risk of messing up your stomach if you take it too regularly.

bilsbie• 3 years ago

How long have you been off of caffiene?

I’d think in the first few months of quitting you’d be overtired from withdraw and might sleep better.

grvdrm3• 3 years ago

Did you ever experiment with tea? Your message is clear on caffeine overall but I am curious if you tried tea in the process of figuring this out.

UniverseHacker4• 3 years ago

Thanks for pointing this out! I'm a slow caffeine metabolizer also, and it took a long time to notice what is happening in my body, and not listen to other people that say things like "just stop drinking coffee before 5pm" or "limit to 4 cups a day" that totally don't work for me.

aantix11• 3 years ago

This was also a good lesson that if I continued to listen to the pop science, the general consensus was that coffee was a net positive.

And that was my stance for a long time.

I didn't realize that there could be such a distinction in one's reaction to caffeine intake.

"The genetics of caffeine sensitivity also have implications for cardiovascular health.

In a 2006 study of more than 4,000 people, researchers found that for slow metabolizers, consuming more cups of coffee per day was associated with an increased risk of a heart attack. Fast metabolizers had no such increased risks."

eslaught• 3 years ago

How do you know what kind you are?

I have zero response to caffeine up to a certain point, and then past that I get shaky and anxious. One cup of tea, no response. Two is too much. Coffee is often on the edge. But no effect on alertness no matter how much or little I take.

cco2• 3 years ago

Similarly, it was wild for me to learn recently that the standard deviation for how many calories our body utilizes for a given calorie intake was WAY bigger than I thought.

Everyone intuitively knows that if 100 people each consume 100 calories, there will be some variation in how much of those 100 calories is "used" by each individual. But I had no idea the distribution is on the scale of 330%!

Meaning in this example, some people would only get 30 usable calories, and some would get the full 100! That was way larger of a spread than I thought.

endorphine• 3 years ago

Have you tried limiting it to 1 coffee per week? Wondering how that would play out

krrrh6• 3 years ago

For anyone reading this and wanting to get off caffeine, but finding it difficult because of withdrawal symptoms like headaches, here’s a trick that makes it easier.

If you’re drinking a morning coffee you’ll be getting 100-200mg of caffeine. But even a small amount of caffeine will take almost all the edge off withdrawal and prevent headaches. A 75g dark chocolate bar at 70% will give you 20-25mg of caffeine. Costco sells boxes of Lindt chocolate bars that meet this criteria. Eat one in the morning instead of coffee (the sugar and theobromine seems to help as well). Once you’ve done this for a week it’s easy to just stop because most people won’t get withdrawal symptoms from 20mg.

w4ffl352• 3 years ago

Cold turkey. I do it all the time. Not hard but yes I get a headache. I don't understand people who have to ease their way off a substance.

taude5• 3 years ago

I typically weigh my coffee, either for making espresso (20g) or for pourovers (25g). Last time I quit, went like this: a) move from two espressos -> one espresso for a few days. Once steady on a single 20g espresso... b) move from 20g espresso to 20g pouroer. c) each day take a few grams off the pour over. The last time I made one I used 5 mg beans, and then quit pretty easily the next day.

This taper method made it totally doable for me, no headaches. The hardest part was going from 2 espressos to 1, mostly because of the habit. I substituted in herbal tea for my second cup....

DavideNL• 3 years ago

"75g dark chocolate bar at 70%"
"Eat one in the morning"

That's like ~ 35gr. of fat in the morning of which ~ 20gr. saturated fat. Ouch...

astrange9• 3 years ago

You could try decaf plus tyrosine/phenylalanine supplements as well.

Theobromine is another stimulant, so I'm not sure it helps.

mirekrusin4• 3 years ago

I found switching to green tea easy. Got infusion jug and still have morning routine to do it, it's actually much more convenient to have it at the desk to refill. You can also control how intense you want it - with water temperature and quantity - as even very light version is great to sip through the day.

euroderf• 3 years ago

FWIW... in my 30s, caffeine withdrawal yielded headaches, but beginning in my 50s (IIRC) it no longer did.

elzbardico• 3 years ago

Actually I envy you. I can drink one expresso or two one hour before sleep and will sleep the same. It is kind of annoying because sometimes I wanted to pull an all-nighter and coffee doesn't have the effect in me that I wanted and I end up sleeping anyway.

Octabrain• 3 years ago

You know, I've been saying something similar to what you wrote for a long time: if I have a coffee at 7am I struggle to sleep and everyone around me has been always looking at me like I'm crazy. It's a relief to know that there are more people having the same issue. It's a shame, because I do love the taste of coffee but I cannot cope with this specific side effect.

ekms• 3 years ago

I find being in caffeine withdrawal definitely makes falling sleep easier. But in steady state being on or off caffeine seems to be about the same?

It's hard to say though! Sleep onset is one of those things that's very strongly affected by placebo/nocebo effects (i.e. the person in this thread who says drinking caffeine /permanently/ worsened his sleep even after discontinuation .. )

For those of you in this thread who know you're slow metabolizers... is the effect on sleep obvious in a way that's distinguishable from nocebo? Or is it pretty subtle?

lttlrck• 3 years ago

I had no idea it could be metabolized so slowly... thanks!

tiffanyg• 3 years ago

You make it sound dark-side / light-side. Might I interest you in a pleasing shade of gray?

Hemodialysis.

Join the 'penumbra-side'.

More seriously, sorry you have that issue. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything useful I'm familiar with. You could look into 'inducers'. Wikipedia has a small list.

At least, though, it's good to know about the trade-offs - knowing that caffeine specifically comes at that kind of cost. Some suffer for years before determining what the actual root cause of some difficulty has been. With awareness, at least there is the possibility of volition / decision.

aantix11• 3 years ago

I find this interesting..

So the idea would be do consume caffeine in the morning, then perform hemodialysis in the evening to rid your blood stream of the circulating effects?

aantix11• 3 years ago

https://www.mygenefood.com/blog/why-coffee-is-bad-for-me-but...

"Because it’s not just the half life, caffeine has a quarter life, meaning it’s still has its hooks in my patient long after that morning sip. According to sleep scientist Matthew Walker, author of Why We Sleep, caffeine’s quarter life is about double its half life. This means that slow metabolizers like my patient may still be feeling the effects of their morning coffee well into the night. No wonder caffeine has been shown to be so disruptive of sleep. 4 After all, it binds to and blocks our adenosine receptors, the signaling pathways the body uses to fall asleep each night."

thisismyswamp• 3 years ago

caffeine’s quarter life is about double its half life

1/2 = 2 * 1/4

Isn't that by definition?

erichocean• 3 years ago

I hate that I have to choose.

FWIW There are sleep aids a doctor can prescribe that will put you into a deep sleep. Would be worth trying to see if you can get the best of both worlds.

blueagle7• 3 years ago

Hey man, I’m in the same boat and i’ve had to eliminate caffeine.

As a replacement, I do Yoga(Sun Salutations) for either 4 or 12 minutes depending on how my body feels in the morning (or if i need energy in the afternoon). It provides much cleaner energy than caffeine: no crash. Just thought i’d share :D

smsm42• 3 years ago

Interesting! I am the exact opposite - I can drink coffee any time, and it doesn't affect my sleep at all. The reverse side of it it that it doesn't wake me up at all either. If I'm sleepy, giving me a cup of coffee is useless. I like the taste of it, but if I want to boost my alertness, I will need something else. I used to drink a lot of caffeinated drinks in my youth, so maybe I developed a tolerance - or maybe it's just my genes.

SillyUsername2• 3 years ago

I'm f'ed as are probably a lot of people who have anxiety or have ideas that wake them up. How the heck is a person meant to stop that? :(

johndevor• 3 years ago

Meditation?

mxmbrb• 3 years ago

A simple realization helped me to get out of the loop of night thoughts a lot quicker:

At night your reasoning abilty is massively impaired by melatonin. Thats why your thoughts keep going in circles and one does not find the most obvious solutions for a problem. There is only one thing to do. Let it go. You are at your worst, you're not supposed to reason right now.

This simple fact fixed crushing night thoughts for me and a friend of mine.

SillyUsername2• 3 years ago

I can't simply put down the thought, even though it is often mostly circular, until I can resolve it. I can stop thinking about it, but then I'll just lie there awake and many hours pass :(

monological2• 3 years ago

Main reason is due to purging of β-amyloid by the glymphatic system, which seems to happen during deep sleep. High β-amyloid plaque build up is correlated with Alzheimer’s disease.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7698404/

Tarq0n• 3 years ago

The causal relationship between amyloid plaque and alzheimers is controversial nowadays.

monological2• 3 years ago

It's not "casual". Did you read the paper I linked?

dbspin• 3 years ago

As someone who's had pretty profound sleep apnea related insomnia (resistant to sleep hygiene and CBT-I) for at least 20 years (since my mid twenties), this is super dispiriting.

baby6• 3 years ago

Same here + acid reflux that keep me awake at night sometimes.

tradesmanhelix• 3 years ago

Anecdotally, Steve Gibson's "Healthy Sleep Formula" [1] has been a lifesaver for me.

As I've gotten older, the biggest challenge has been falling back asleep in the middle of the night after a wake up (for whatever reason, i.e., bathroom, noises, etc.), but the Niacinamide esp. from the formula seems to fix this and I sleep great. Thank you Steve!!

[1] https://www.grc.com/health/sleep/healthy_sleep_formula.htm

artylerzysta• 3 years ago

My sleeping improved after moving wifi router and cell phone away from my bed.

londons_explore• 3 years ago

I suspect it was the cell phone more than the wifi router...

as well as the constant temptation to check it for messages there is the random 3am buzzing as some app sends a spam notification.

throitallaway• 3 years ago

Yes, although I've seen some routers (and other electronic devices) that have coil whine (which would be very distracting for sleep.)

sidcool• 3 years ago

How to increase deep sleep?

eagle2com• 3 years ago

Research concerning sleep is very interesting, but also extremely counterproductive for me. Now I have yet another thing to worry about if I don't sleep enough/correctly, and thus I _will_ sleep worse for a while.

kbrkbr• 3 years ago

How is this study different from a study suggesting that taking off one's shoes before sleeping can reduce headache in the morning? There may be a hidden cause that leads to sleep reduction and dementia, no?

TMWNN• 3 years ago

How does Monash have an `.edu`? I thought the only non-US institutions with one are the Universities of Toronto and Montreal, for historical reasons.

khazhoux3• 3 years ago

The biggest bang-for-buck to improve your sleep:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NMTQM8M

Stick these tubes up your nose (all the way in!) and enjoy free-flowing air passage all night.

The first couple of days will be a bit uncomfortable and weird to have these things jammed in there, but you forget about them very quickly, and the huge increase in oxygen intake is amazing. I hate sleeping without them now.

noname120• 3 years ago

Does this work even for people who don't snore? No risk of hurting yourself in your sleep if you suddenly move around?

MetaWhirledPeas• 3 years ago

It probably advertises to snorers because that's a big draw. In truth it simply makes it easier to breathe through your nose, similar to Breathe Right nose strips. (So yes it can benefit anyone who wants better nose breathing.) Snoring happens farther back in your throat.

CSSer• 3 years ago

Jokes on you. I've already got a huge schnoz. Seriously though, now I'm wondering if that's doing me any favors.

khazhoux3• 3 years ago

Well, try this simple experiment. Tilt your head 90° and nose-breathe. Now grab your up-facing nostril and pull it wide open. You're probably taking in a lot more air now, with zero resistance. That's what these tubes do.

riversflow2• 3 years ago

So if anyone here is really desperate to get deep sleep and can’t despite lots of effort, it might be worth looking into Delta sleep inducing peptide(DSIP). My father has fibromyalgia and struggles to get any restorative sleep most nights, I came across DSIP while trying to figure out how to help him. Unfortunately I can’t speak to it’s effectiveness as neither of us can afford DSIP, although it has come down significantly in price in the last several years.

bob_theslob646• 3 years ago

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1299794/

I'm not trying to be a sleptic, but that study says that.

"As none of the other measures, including subjective sleep quality, showed any change, it was concluded that short-term treatment of chronic insomnia with DSIP is not likely to be of major therapeutic benefit."

Maybe I read that wrong ?

riversflow2• 3 years ago

Nah, you read that right, thanks for sending me that. However, that study is on people with chronic insomnia. Here is a study[1] saying that it showed benefit for fibromyalgia patients. Both of these studies are tiny tho.

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6548970/

xupybd• 3 years ago

Having recently started treating my sleep apnea the difference is startling. Being able to remember and think like this is unreal. I have no idea how I remained employed for so long in my previous state.

Sleep quality is so important.

nmz• 3 years ago

Is this surprising anyone? If lack of sleep causes a myriad of symptoms like hallucinations, mood swings and etc. Then the opposite would probably true.

shakil• 3 years ago

Here we go again confusing correlation with causation. The medical field is mired with these: eat less to lose weight, reduce cholesterol to prevent heart attacks, reduce stress to prevent stomach ulcers ...

Have they considered people prone to dementia just aren't able to get quality sleep, and both of these are due to some other underlying cause where fixing one doesn't really fix the other?

rzmmm• 3 years ago

This kind of prospective study is not perfect but it's what is possible for this type of risk factor and disease. Researchers can't create an RCT study with blinded deep sleep intervention group with placebo and then after 17 years see which got less dementia. The authors avoid the C-word on purpose but it's implied that this kind of study brings more evidence than just association.

gopher20002• 3 years ago

The article is literally titled "Association Between Slow-Wave Sleep Loss and Incident Dementia". Association is not causation.

3cats-in-a-coat• 3 years ago

Or maybe dementia prevents deep sleep, which is much more logical given many diseases in general disrupt proper sleep.

I'm sick of low-quality studies which try to draw causative conclusions from correlative observations (and usually often quite weak ones).

Stop writing garbage papers.

haxiomic• 3 years ago

Does any one have experience with rapid breathing while sleeping?

I've been trying to fix my long-term sleep issues for a while and I often don't get much deep sleep.

When I record my sleep through an Apple Watch and breathing microphone, I find my breathing rate goes up, often 25-30 breaths per minute but while awake it's < 20. I can't seem to find anything online that's relevant. It's been this way for the year I've been monitoring, does this happen to anyone else?

robg• 3 years ago

People I know tape their mouths shut to force breathing through the nose. Have you looked at that or done a sleep study for apnea?

Jeff_Brown3• 3 years ago

Two important questions unaddressed: (1) What is the base risk for dementia? (2) Is this cause or effect?

Jeff_Brown3• 3 years ago

Separating from my wife has helped my sleep quality tremendously.

I say that not to be amusing but to point out that sometimes a biological symptom can have a non-biological root cause.

nunez2• 3 years ago

i love articles like this because they are quick to tell you how doing this "one sleep hack" will lead to possible health benefits in the future (maybe) but conveniently leave out that how you sleep once you're asleep is 99% out of your control

outside of setting a sleep schedule, getting a sleep study to rule out sleep apnea and stimulating sleep with melatonin, all you can do is let your body do its thing

Improving deep sleep may prevent dementia, study finds

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